Pajamas Media

136 Comments

1. Blackwater:

Great article. As a former leftist, and even for a long time as a right winger, I understand where these people are coming from. People in Western countries, to their civilizations credit, have been raised and dare I say “indoctrinated” to respect and be exceedingly tolerant of all religions. With of course the only exception being Christianity. Christianity is presented as respressive, bigoted, anti-intellectual, anti-progress and is responsible for most of the worlds woes accoring to most leftists. But islam? “Hey, every religion has its extremists! Not all muslims are terrorists!” Even though everything about Christianity these leftists hate islam has in droves. It’s insanely hypocritical. They just don’t want to deal with the politically incorrect ugly truth about islam. Admitting that a religion which has 1.5 billion followers advocates religious imperialism and violence and oppression of religious minorities and theocracy is just a thought they don’t want to confront. I know because I didn’t. I always just assumed that people like you who were sounding the warning bells about the extremist oppressive nature of islam itself were racists or Christian nutjobs who are just upset about a rival religion. But then I got curious and started to research islam for myself and found that it was even way worse than I had thought. So keep ringing those politically incorrect warning bells because the facts and reality are on your side.

Jun 9, 2009 - 2:50 am 2. Bad Karma:

As opposed to whitewashing, I firmly believe, as evident, that the media absoulutely refuses to report and portray the facts. I also firmly believe that a good majority of the media sees the world in the same manner that Barry does. That it’s an unjust nation built upon the backs of others, therefore supporting or whitewashing those that wish to bring us down is the only logical step for them. The other reason is that the media doesn’t have what it takes to appropriately report about Islam, mainly ingegrity, courage and honor, but these are only buzz words for them when you have a “whistle blower” divulging classified information.

Jun 9, 2009 - 3:07 am 3. Jack:

What we are seeing is the manifestation of an unwritten rule: you must not upset Muslims.

No matter how barbaric, misogynistic, or seventh century, Islam must be respected.

Jun 9, 2009 - 3:41 am 4. Gary Ogletree:

In Europe they rightly fear retribution for even stating what the Koran says. But the push back may have started with the recent elections. Here we have conservative politicians claiming that the jihadis have hijacked the religion, although they are following the words of the Koran and the example of Mohammed to a tee. Our mealy mouthed politicians have to be called out on it.

Jun 9, 2009 - 4:50 am 5. Terry Gain:

Thank you Mr. Bawer.

A religion which punishes apostasy is per se desperately in need of reform. There will be no reform without criticism.

A student of history would understand that this intolerant and violent political/religious movement is a danger to our way of life. It should be examined in the same way we would examine any other political movement.

Jun 9, 2009 - 4:53 am 6. Macko:

Just let them have Poland. That should be the end of it.

Jun 9, 2009 - 4:54 am 7. Meryl:

On occasion, I’ve tried to “reason through” the possible motives of those who want to do this terminal placating.

I’ve never gotten beyond two possibilities: either it’s politically correct tolerance run amok or, from the very core of their being, a very personal fear of Islam that drives them to sacrifice personal journalistic integrity.

In other words, are they actually worried about their personal hide, in same way you’d worry about walking down a street known to be controlled by violent gangs.

If it is that personal level of fear, then at least we may conclude that they actually DO grasp reality and just don’t have the PC (personal courage) to deal with it honestly. They choose rather to bear the burden that goes with living “politically correct”.

Jun 9, 2009 - 4:57 am 8. "progressive"watch:

Obama said that he was a student of history,he didn’t say he knew any history. He implied that he knew,but he proved that he didn’t.

I must repeat: The former mainstream media is now part of the Obama Propaganda and Disformation Central,and it is not commenting on Obama’s Middle East speech and policies as a disinterested party reporting news but is reporting on the Obama-former-msm Middle East speech and policies.

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:01 am 9. Cato:

Before 9/11, my knowledge of Islam was quite limited. Through an “Early Middle Ages” course I’d known of its conquests in the seventh and eighth centuries and its ongoing conflict with the Byzantine Empire, and, as a modern European historian, I thought I was pretty well informed with respect to the conflict between the Europeans and the Sublime Porte, and the long decline of the Ottoman Empire and with rise of the various “Arab” states out of the chaos of the First World War. I’d tried to read the Koran in college around the same time I’d read the Indian and Chinese religious classics (after having been through the Bible), but found it a slog and gave it up as a bad joke. I knew beyond that mostly the romantic stuff — FitzGerald’s Omar, Burton’s Thousand and One Nights, the mythology of tolerance and learning (but in the back of my mind lingered a suspicion about that based on the whole Spanish Reconquista and constant warfare in the East, highlighted by Lepanto and the two sieges of Vienna).

Hoo, Boy! was I naiive. I had little clue. So, after 9/11, I reread the Koran — and was rather shocked at the utter nastiness of the thing. And, I read everything I could about Islam, Ibn Warraq, Bat Ye’or’s several works on the Dhimmi and Islam, John Julius Norwich on Byzantinum, Bernard Lewis, Patai, Habeck, Irwin, a couple of Teaching Company courses on the Crusades, and on Byzantium, Lawrence Wright’s Looming Tower, and much more that does not come immediately to mind.

Fundamentally, our forebears who abhored Islam — Mahometanism as they called it — were fundamentally correct about it – it’s a damned dangerous indeology that brooks no reform or compromise.

I suspect the decision to whitewash Islam after 9/11 was well-intended, to protect the more or less average Moslems in this country — and the countries in the Middle East with whom we needed to get along for oil — from the consequences of a really thorough, objective understanding of Islam, its history, intolerance, backwardness, and ideology of world domination. Had that understanding been widespread among the American people in 2001 and 2002, and had the political pressure on the government been based on that kind of an understanding, Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, and Afghanistan would have had “surrender or die” ultimata with the probable result that Iraq would have surrendered, former Iranian cities would be radioactive glass parking lots, Pakistan would have surrendered its nukes after Iran was nuked, and Afghanistan would have gone more or less the way it did – the Taliban defeated quickly – but without the sanctuaries in Pakistan to retreat into, they would have faded into a low level of banditry. World might well have been better off.

Islam should be treated with precisely the respect it deserves. Its barbarism and misogyny should be absolutely rejected. Its adherents should be informed that their practices are simply unacceptable in the West – if they want to live in the West, they can worship as they choose, but must otherwise assimilate and follow the rules of civil society. Islam’s pretensions to world domination and to conquest must be met with firmness and a demonstrated willingness to resist its encroachments with overwhelming force.

We must not let Abu Grab be our Amritsar Incident.

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:44 am 10. Fragmentarian:

2+2=5. See it’s easy.

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:46 am 11. Cato:

Meryl wrote: “I’ve never gotten beyond two possibilities: either it’s politically correct tolerance run amok or, from the very core of their being, a very personal fear of Islam that drives them to sacrifice personal journalistic integrity.”

There is a third possibility — it is a form of cognitive dissonance because if they accepted the truth about Islam, the implications for policy are tremendous and frightening. They could be afraid of the consequences of the war that might well ensue, or, more darkly, they may well be afraid of unleashing their own inner warriors and demons, the Western genius and relish for warfare that has conquered the world, even races as warlike as the Japanese. They fear they might be moved to urge, perhaps participate in, and even exult in, a “Vernichtungskrieg” with Islam.

It is a scary thought.

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:50 am 12. Rockmelon:

Now that Europe is moving to the right, we are moving to the left!

I had thought that the Western European nations were living examples to the US on how NOT to treat Islam and Muslims. Unfortunately, our government and media operate in a bubble and have chosen to ignore these hard learned lessons and are instead walking in Europe’s footsteps! Unbelievable!

Regarding the media, in my opinion, disseminators of news have no business analyzing, dissecting or drawing conclusions. If they are performing their jobs appropriately, they would report the FACTS and allow the public to exercise their brains by reaching their own conclusions. I believe news media have a responsibility to ‘educate’ not ‘indoctrinate’.

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:04 am 13. Toronto Girl:

Fear and intimidation are what motivates the Islamic machine. We need to arm ourselves with the facts about this cult and the people who practice it. Never back down from an argument with a Moslem; refute their lies, quote hateful passages from their manifesto and call them up on it,inform those less knowledgeable to read Orianna Fallaci’s “The Force of Reason” and Robert Spencer’s “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam”….be aware and teach others. Be strong and be proud of your own culture. Never apologize and never appease.

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:09 am 14. AThinkingPerson:

The truth is we are afraid. We believe that if we are silent and give them a wide berth to worship Mohammad as they see fit, they’ll leave us alone and have mercy on us and not kill us for the infidels that they surely see us as. We truly are a pathetic, wimpy lot aren’t we?

It will take many American martyrs to battle the Muslim cancer that is currently befalling us. It’s a shame many now choose to forget 9/11. We didn’t learn from that. We now apologize (thank you dear leader Obama) to them which only emboldens their agenda.

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:18 am 15. Trainwreck:

To Meryl and Cato:

I fear a fourth possibility, as I explained in another post, that this is the leftist’s version of Helter Skelter. Just like Manson hoped to ignite a race war that the whites would lose, enabling the Manson family to then take over as the ruling elite, the left wing wants to co-opt Islamism into collapsing our Western democracy, turn it on itself, end capitalism and facilitate the rise of a PC multiculti socialist/statist elite.

The gravest sins to a liberal are racism, xenophobia, homophobia and sexism, yet Islamists have these “sins” in abundance. Why would a liberal ally himself with a radical Muslim? Unless they had something to gain from this alliance.

Think in terms of the AIDS virus, which attacks the immune system, resulting in the spread of opportunistic infections and cancer. PC and multicultualism comprise America’s AIDS virus, radical Islam is the opportunistic infection, so that ultimately, the cancer of socialism and Marxism can take over the body of America.

Obozo WANTS radical Islam to attack. With lawsuits, hate crime laws and threats, any criticism of Islam is to be stifled. Then a few suicide bombings and nukes and EMP’s will collapse the strands of our civilization. Since Americans have lost their backbone to fight and their capacity to reciognize true evil after years of PC brainwashing, they will look to a big nanny government to make them feel better. Now Obama and his ilk have the crises they need to fundamentally make us a socialist republic.

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:22 am 16. tanstaafl:

…Prince Alwaleed bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University — which means that the Saudi royal family pays his salary.

I recall, awhile after 911, reading of the Saudis funding university chairs and also taking out some full page newspaper ads, in some kind of massive Saudi PR move.

I found it repulsive, using our petrodollars to bend our minds, paying to be brainwashed.

“lamented that the media, including his own newspaper, had failed to give the American public a clear understanding of Islam.”

You mean the slavish public is sitting around waiting for the entrenched media to teach them real things, about Islam or anything else under the sun ? There’s a strange idea.

I undertook a study of Islam post 911 and the upshot of my inquiries was not positive.

“the integration of Sharia law” into Western law

This is a central tenet of “soft” jihad, read the manual* for slow and insidious takeover of “the west”. Seems to be working somewhat, given indications such as in England (e.g.,recall Rowan Williams) and Canada (e.g., recall lawsuits against Maclean’s, Steyn, Levant, push to have shari’a rulings supersede Canadian law in family matters, etc.)

Not doing too badly in US of A, geez, maybe our schoolchildren will soon get halal food in the cafeteria, & regular breaks during the school day for prayer.

“Bawer veers into self-parody when he asserts that Muslims have cowed skeptics into self-censorship and inaction.”

Your critic veers into extreme naiveté in making this observation. Cowing skeptics is central to the plan. Riling up “the faithful” (recall Danish imam taking cartoons & other pictures around middle east) is also central to the plan.

*North American operation of the extremist Muslim Brotherhood (Ikhwan).

The process of settlement [of Islam in the United States] is a “Civilization-Jihadist” process with all the word means. The Ikhwan must understand that all their work in America is a kind of grand Jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and “sabotaging” their miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God’s religion is made victorious over all religions. Without this level of understanding, we are not up to this challenge and have not prepared ourselves for Jihad yet. It is a Muslim’s destiny to perform Jihad and work wherever he is and wherever he lands until the final hour comes, and there is no escape from that destiny except for those who choose to slack.

The entire 18-page platform outlines a plan for the long haul

(English starts about 1/2 way down)

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:26 am 17. Cybergeezer:

Since the government run/Obama media has appeared to have the power to shove Obama into the White House, It thinks it sets the rules on public opinion and dissent. Only reporting what it thinks promotes it’s agenda.
If We the People don’t blog the true feelings of the dissenters, this news will die a quiet death.
Obama and his media think they can control our every emotion and thought.

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:59 am 18. Joe Bison:

Unfortunately eventually truth intersects
BS. At that time the “Religion of Peace”TM
BSers can and will shift gears on a dime
and get away with it. The story changes
all the time just look at the mortgage issue.

I think part of the problem aside from those
on the payroll is that the liberal media
and politicians think that the Muslims they
deal with are as hypocritical and full of
it as themselves. They don’t fully realize
how deadly serious and committed these guys
are.

When you come from Chicago you think
everything can be bought, sold, traded
and papered over. “Good” motives are just
a fig leaf to cover up corruption. So
you think that the corrupt leaders and
populace of Islam are just like you.
Big mistake.

In general it is not a good idea to project
your values and beliefs into an alien culture
or other eras of time. Present day reality
and deeds are a better yardstick.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:04 am 19. tanstaafl:

…the left wing wants to co-opt Islamism into collapsing our Western democracy…Why would a liberal ally himself with a radical Muslim? Unless they had something to gain from this alliance.

The Left & Islam, yet another of the Left’s unholy alliances with a mass murdering ideology.

That the Left postures as though it is on the side of social justice, but it is on the side of the greatest and most pernicious violators of social justice. And its hands are drenched in human blood in terms of the mass murdering ideologies and regimes it has supported and aided and
abetted.

~Jamie Glazov, United in Hate: The Left’s Romance with Tyranny and Terror

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:11 am 20. Kelly:

It seems to be a pure lack of education of the West. I think we *want* Islam to be good so we project that desire onto them. We try to justify their behaviour by saying things like “we have wife abuse here in the U.S. too”. The women of Islamic nations must be so disappointed. How would we like it if our entire legal system was in favor of the abusers?

I grew up in an oppressive, very abusive family. I ran away as a young teenager and tried to start a new life. I felt my life was at risk for many years because the abuse I had endured had made me such a victim. The even sadder part was that I ran away with yet another abuser who took advantage of my naive youth. It took years before I grew confident enough to “escape.” I feared for my life as it had been threatened more than once. I guess I finally rationalized that the threat of death was better than the life I was living. Once you have that life experience to relate to, you can begin to understand at least some of the challenges many Islamic women face.

I am always amazed and so proud of them when I see some Islamics standing up for their rights and beliefs, even at the risk of death. How many women in the U.S. would do this? How many men? It’s easy to say you would, so much harder to follow through.

It will take strong young women and young men to help change this pattern.

Changing their behavior means we must make their behaviour known publicly. In my experience and research, when an abuser is “outed” to the public, they have a harder time continuing their cycle of abuse.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:22 am 21. tanstaafl:

We were much smarter, 110 years ago (or some of us were ).

From The River War, Winston Churchill, 1899

From Mark Twain, also 19th c.

“When I, a thoughtful and unblessed Presbyterian, examine the Koran, I know that beyond any question every Mohammedan is insane, not in all things, but in religious matters. I cannot prove to him that he is insane, because you never can prove anything to a lunatic — for that is a part of his insanity and the evidence of it.”

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:33 am 22. james:

They whitewash – so to speak – Islam for the same reasons they glossed over Pol Pot’s killing fields and Fidel Castro’s slave camps. First, they worship unfettered power fueled by blood lust because it’s what they want for themselves; and second, Islam is anti-West and anti-American. That makes it, ipso facto, worthy and superior.
Don’t expect any of this ever to change. It is not going to.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:39 am 23. Meryl:

Cato and Trainwreck–

Once again, as both of you describe, the reality of what we are dealing is considerably worse that any of us would have speculated (or accused Muslims of) 20 years ago.

Unfortunately, we don’t have to worry much about overstating the very real danger, violence and intention of Islam toward Western Civilization. They want our nation destroyed and our individual lives snuffed out.

Reminds me again that we don’t have to use hyperbole in arguing the point, even though the facts sometimes sound like hyperbole.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:54 am 24. Mongoose:

The most likely reason is the the Leftist elites see a resurgent Islam as a means to destroy Western Civilization, and in their foolishness imagine that they can control them.

This is certainly has been the case in the EU where “Islamicization” has been going on for decades. The recent election speak very clearly to this tactic, more so than to some sort of rejection of socialism (though with luck mayb e it is a bit of both)/

Now the Democrats here wish to emulate their European Fascist/Marxist coreligionists and promote Islam here.

It is no wonder that they have foisted upon is a Muslim president and seek to make common cause with Islam against their own civilization.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:59 am 25. Another Chuck:

Hell, these people have never apologized for kissing Stalin’s a$$ and that’s going on 70 years overdue. Why should we expect them to change now?

Jun 9, 2009 - 8:00 am 26. Old Soldier:

tanstaafl: I knew the Churchill essay – the Twain is new to me – thanks.

The problem for Muslims is the inevitable backlash. When they thoroughly disprove the media and leftist propaganda as lies, there will be ugly consequences.

Jun 9, 2009 - 8:22 am 27. no name:

if we don’t present you with the truth, hopefully you’ll never be free or want to be free. the post is complisit in the matrix of evil. for those with eyes to see and ears to hear,maybe it’s time to gather P.D.L.’s, ventilation time can’t to far away. let the madam rule!

Jun 9, 2009 - 8:30 am 28. Junior Magoo:

“It’s no coincidence that the commentators who have made these points have done so, almost without exception, not in major media organs but in places like Pajamas Media.”

Yes, its true. I’m still pissing myself laughing that none of you seem to understand the reality driving that process of exclusion.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:24 am 29. Junior Magoo:

“As this sorry record suggests, the Washington Post has, in the years since 9/11, taken an unequivocal stand on Islam: in the name of liberalism and tolerance, it has chosen to minimize or overlook entirely the many extremely illiberal and intolerant aspects of the faith of Muhammed.”

I’m not sure I understand the basis of your fevered rant, Bawer. Are you suggesting that when a world leader speaks about a religion, he must also include all of the horrendous acts committed in the past and present by people who claimed to be acting in the name of the religion? There wouldn’t be very many religions that would look good in such an analysis. I suppose you also believe that Christianity had a role to play in the invasion of Iraq, since GW Bush claimed to be doing the work of his god. And also that whenever we talk about Christianity, we must also hurriedly and in the same breath recount not only all of the acts of terrorism committed in the name of the religion, but also all the crimes it has been associated with in the past.

This kind of two-dimensional thinking is too silly for words, and indeed, only organs like Pajamas Media would be so stupid as to post such intellectually indefensible crap.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:34 am 30. David Nelson:

We are hardly afraid.

This is more on the lines of not wanting to hurt anyone’s feelings. It’s not “fair” to tell the truth about them.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:39 am 31. JHM dba ''Moonwatcher":

Neocomrade B. Bawer really ought to be more patient with the Washington Post Company, which is freddiehiattisin’ itself about as fast as humanly possible. Day by day the former WaPo drifts closer and closer to the nearby orbit of _America’s Moonpaper_.

_Jihád_ careerism can hardly be expect to be many folks’ *first* priority, after all, and least of all here in the wake of the Crawford Crash!

I daresay the NeoPosties will get around to purgin’ themselves of all traces of the Abominable Esposito in a year or too and then pay handsome intellectual reparations to the firm of Bawer, Horowitz, Pipes, Spencer — plus maybe even buy lots and lots of Islam-bashin’ articles from BHPS, should the state of the stock market permit.

A little patience and neocomradely forbearance are what is called for.

Happy days.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:43 am 32. WhyamInotsurprised?:

I tried to read this article. Maybe it is just my mood right now but I was repulsed by the “advertising” of this book. Can we just have some discourse without referencing this page and that page and “my book.”

Advertise somewhere else.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:44 am 33. davidt:

Today is the sixtieth anniversary of the publication of Orwell’s 1984.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:52 am 34. Sherab Zangpo:

#15 Trainwreck

you wrote:

“…the left wing wants to co-opt Islamism into collapsing our Western democracy, turn it on itself, end capitalism and facilitate the rise of a PC multiculti socialist/statist elite.”

#24 Mongoose

you wrote:

“…the Leftist elites see a resurgent Islam as a means to destroy Western Civilization, and in their foolishness imagine that they can control them.”

I think that you both got it right.
In the deranged mind of the commies now in control of Congress and White House (and in the waiting list for the SCotUS), islam has the role of military branch of the subversion.

The eternal strategy of the subversives is to get to an absolute control of power through the use of chaos. Any tool of destruction is good to this end, this is why they always support criminals and maniacs of any kind, and ultimately it is even the reason of their support of abortion.

As I recently wrote, this will be the LAST idiocy of the commies in history, because islam will not be a passive tool and will wipe them away from history.

After that, it will be the dark ages forever.

The idiot minds that are building this obscene future consider themselves great strategists, instead they are just suicidal.

Which , again, makes sense because it is the only rational consequence of nihilism.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Jun 9, 2009 - 10:05 am 35. Dave ll:

Sometimes there’s just no explainin’ the liberal mindset…though I lean toward “cognitive dissonance” as the most “logical” (silly me… trying to be logical here!)

The one factor nobody has brought up though is simple residual “Bush-Derangement Syndrome”, Post-traumatic 8-year-denial-of-everything-Bush- stood-for, mental brain-cramp.

Maybe a few years of Obama and the mess he will create will change their thinking…but I won’t hold my breath waiting for that to happen…that would require them to think logically!

Jun 9, 2009 - 10:40 am 36. Houdini:

Hey this is America where you can insult anyone you want, of course you might risk a punch in the nose or black eye but you can still do it. Only cowards use the political correctness krap and take one insult after another thinking that it make them better than others for doing so, when in fact it just shows that they are the miserable cowards that they are. Stand up for what you believe no matter what others think, and that is the American way!

Jun 9, 2009 - 11:12 am 37. Dave ll:

Oh, and then there’s Obama himself (though he alone doesn’t explain the last several years, his “thinking” is a perfect example of what we see in the media. Consider his recent speech:

“I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”

Gee, who knew THAT was part of the President’s job description!

Now if he could only do the same for negative stereotypes of Christians, I might actually begin to respect the guy!

Jun 9, 2009 - 11:17 am 38. Blackwater:

@29

The thing is though you don’t really have to look in the past to see islamic religious violence do you? All you have to do is turn on the news. Oh wait, I forgot that the leftists who control 95% of the media covers it up. You have to follow jihad watch type blogs that get this informantion out there in the vain hope that the mainstream media will expose what’s happening to religious minorities throughout the world living in islamic countries or in proximity to muslims. As much as you want to play mental gymnastics you’re never going to be able to deny the simple cold hard truth which is that Christians aren’t cutting peoples heads off while screaming GOD IS GREAT like muslimes are. Also virtually no Christians have advocated Christian imperialism in ages because Christianity isn’t an inherently violent religion like islam is.

Jun 9, 2009 - 11:28 am 39. American Muslim:

The triumph of Islam is inevitable. Western “civilization” is crumbling and soon will disappear.

There is little time left. Renounce your false religions. Embrace Islam now and live in peace in submission to the will of Almighty Allah (swt).

Your grandchildren will be Muslim.

Allahu akbar!

Jun 9, 2009 - 11:40 am 40. AThinkingPerson:

One only needs read ANY post by Junior Magoo to see what the outcome of the PC mindset has wrought. Junior is a perfect example showing how the PC will blindly follow whatever is spoonfed into their pea-sized brains. Any questioning of the status-quo brings immediate derision.

Sorry Junior, your group-think mentality keeps shining through no matter how much you try and look like an original thinker. Scamper on back to the HuffPo where your anti-American stance is valued.

Jun 9, 2009 - 11:55 am 41. The Historian:

EJ DIONNE IS APPARENTLY FEELING INADEQUATE
It hurts to be so smart and so ignored.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/06/ej-everleft-journalist-dionne-author-of.html

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:01 pm 42. tanstaafl:

“I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.”

Dave II,

Christopher Hitchens has some comments about all that

I also noted that our “stander upper for Islam” Prez. said “hajib” in Cairo. (from a guy who doesn’t speak “Austrian” and thinks there are 57 states)

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:06 pm 43. Proud Infidel:

I hope the American Muslim understands that when the inevitable conflict begins, the 1 and 1/2 billion muslims of the world will not stand a chance when the great equilizers (weapons of mass destruction) are set loose on them. Allah will not be much help to them. But a culture of death such as Islam should welcome their tickets to their paradise – it cannot be any worse than the abject poverty, depravity and filth that most of them are forced to endure and seem to revel in.

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:07 pm 44. El hefe:

The unity of the Left, the Main Stream Media, Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, Islam and whom ever is the hatred for Christians and Jews. Why do the Devils children hate us so? The reason is we don’t need them the children of unbelief. We are stable and confident in our faith and we believe in the liberty and truth and wisdom that God provides through His Holy Spirit and all that is derived from it. The West for generations now has been the light of the world holding the nations up to a standard set by the Word of God. The haters have been jealous.
We are amazed at how the left can lie and lie and lie and not care but this is who they are. They despise the truth. They despise God. The Leftist, Statist, Muslim, Communist types do not penalize themselves for their deeds because for them, lying, cheating, stealing and murdering is all just a means to an end and is a perfectly acceptable way to get what they want.
Of course this is not true for the people of the book. In the Lefts eyes we are to be kind and conciliatory to those who mistreat us, forgiving them and punishing ourselves for ours and their misdeeds. They have always used the goodness of God against us. Guilt is the key. But the thing they can never grasp is the righteousness we have is not our own, as a gift from God we put it on and we are guilt free, too bad for them. We take the guiltless responsibility to point out their lies and evil deeds in factual and truthful manner. We expose who they are. We stick to the truth until the end.
Their behavior has not gone unnoticed and justice will be done.
So cling to your guns and your bibles just a little while longer and you’ll see it happen; the just reward for the behavior of the Left and their buddies in hatred.

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:22 pm 45. tanstaafl:

On hijab…

One line in the Koran about women covering their hair when the rival guys come around, tempted to steal them as Mohammed himself “took” various women* post death of first wife Khadija.

*including a Jewess or two…

And 1400 years later, you’ve spawned crazy people like Sayyid Qutb** who was aghast at the gyrating bobby soxers when he spent some time in Colorado in the late 1940’s.

**Ayman al-Zawahiri’s guru

And Osama bin laden horrified when his sister-in-law opened the door, unveiled.

You’ve also spawned some lesser known variations of Islam, whose leaders are fixated on things like disposition of bodily fluids (”wadu”) And Ayatollahs in Shiaism, rulings poor “believers” must seek to do damn near anything, practically breathing in and out requires permission.

While Mohammed taught that impartations from the Angel were sufficient, in and of themselves, and that no holy man or religious “interlocutor” stood between the worshipper and Allah.

Gosh, no wonder many modern followers of Islam go over the edge.

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:28 pm 46. tanstaafl:

But a culture of death such as Islam should welcome their tickets to their paradise –

Most often it’s the poor kids, the horny (excited about FINALLY seeing a naked woman in Paradise) the young, the impressionable, the retarded, the unbalanced, the hopeless, the fanatical…

who get enlisted into the joys of blowing themselves up.

While the old guys consider themselves too important to die and hide out in caves, take over villages in Waziristan, Swat Valley, intimidate, even kill the villagers who don’t go along with them.

Jun 9, 2009 - 12:37 pm 47. Hot Lunch:

THinkingperson

Keep the unintentionally hilarious hypocrisy coming, I’m having a stressful day.

Jun 9, 2009 - 1:01 pm 48. Rashputin:

Now, let me see. If you are a member of a group (the media) that sees nothing wrong with an elite ruling a nation, nothing wrong with a single way of thinking being allowed under at least lies and ridicule, and at worst death, and that there’s nothing wrong with murdering the helpless en masse, why would see anything wrong with Islam that needed to be Whitewashed? Indeed, you’d say lovely things about them and demand that others work to understand and cooperate with them. Most of those in the media are drooling for a chance to kiss the foot of HusseinO who intends the same thing, albeit, claiming the God of Socialism rather than Allah commands him to.

Therefore, the is no one trying to “Whitewash” Islam. They just share the basic beliefs about how a society should be run and see nothing to hide or distort.

Have a wonderful day

Jun 9, 2009 - 2:03 pm 49. Tcobb:

Junior Magoo writes:
Are you suggesting that when a world leader speaks about a religion, he must also include all of the horrendous acts committed in the past and present by people who claimed to be acting in the name of the religion? There wouldn’t be very many religions that would look good in such an analysis. I suppose you also believe that Christianity had a role to play in the invasion of Iraq, since GW Bush claimed to be doing the work of his god. And also that whenever we talk about Christianity, we must also hurriedly and in the same breath recount not only all of the acts of terrorism committed in the name of the religion, but also all the crimes it has been associated with in the past.
Well Junior–the fact is that Islam is qualitatively different from most religions. When Christians or Buddhists went forth to do carnage it was against the central tenets of their religion. When it comes to murder, rape, and theft Islam considers such acts to be acts of piety when they are directed against infidels. Read the Koran.

But then again, people of your intellectual stature don’t need to, do they? Ignorance is no barrier to the Enlightened Folk. Data just gets in the way.

Jun 9, 2009 - 2:09 pm 50. Professor Guvinoff:

I don’t know about the supposed scores of shovel-ready jobs, but we have more than enough dhimmi-ready talking heads, including heads of state.

Jun 9, 2009 - 2:22 pm 51. Leatherneck:

Don’t forget BLT, and Islam go hand in hand. The POTUS sat in a BLT church for 20 years, and as stated by Islam, all have been born Muslim. Perhaps, that is why the One said we are one of the largest Muslim countrys in the world.

Myself, I am an Apostate, and must have my head cut off by the religion of peace.

Jun 9, 2009 - 2:22 pm 52. AThinkingPerson:

Hot Lunch: Welcome to the outing of the Liberal Loonie Left!

Noticed you don’t actually have any point to make. Do you have that problem in your daily life also? Just grunting out inane statements randomly? Not surprising.

Hot Lunch must equal Hot Mess? Just asking.

I await your point. I do have a life, so you might want to just make one up like the rest of the liberal loonies do.

Jun 9, 2009 - 2:29 pm 53. GArcuri:

Image over substance. Obama is a master poseur. And, the media culture that gave rise to this fraud is itself all about image. Too bad that the American public is largely interested only in appearances. If they read more, thought more and debated more, they would know how shallow our current President really is.

Jun 9, 2009 - 3:01 pm 54. fred:

Cato @10

My journey into learning about Islam almost exactly mirrors yours. And I too found the Qur’an a slog. The archaic expressions, grammar, and disconnected, lack of a narrative structure make it a difficult read. But read it one must, if one is to accurately understand this ideology/cult. What is equally important – and this is critical in the debate with Islamic apologists in the West – is that one must understand that orthodox Islamic scholars uphold the hermeneutic principle that the Qur’an is a divine dictation. I cannot count the number of times I have heard Western apologists say that Islam could be made more amenable to the modern world if it would just ignore the parts of the Qur’an that are retrograde (and then they go off and morally equate the Islamic “fundamentalists” with our Christian counterparts).

I have an alternate explanation for why our policy, media, and academic elites persist in advocating the benign version of Islam. Mind you, I am not rejecting the other explanations for this; it’s just that I have encountered many examples of what I am about to declare. Many are trapped by their own sloth. There are people who think that what they received during their Ivy League educations is sufficiently explanatory, and they feel it beneath them to revisit this subject for a more in-depth exploration of the texts. They won’t do it. Many consider reading the Qur’an a waste of time; they don’t have time for primitive texts like this, especially religious texts. By the way, this partly explains their ignorance of Christianity and the Bible.

Thus, we have sloth, cowardice, and venal material gain (probably all involved in Prof. Esposito’s motives). I met Prof. Esposito many years ago when he was at the College of the Holy Cross at Worcester, MA when I was a Jesuit seminarian. It seemed to me that he was trying to get mileage out of a very dated view of Islam even back then.

Jun 9, 2009 - 3:18 pm 55. Hot Lunch:

Tcobb. That’s the most unintentionally hilarious thing I’ve read today. Your points are easily refuted:

“15:1 And Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction [1] all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

That’s the bible, not the Koran. In any case, the funniest part is that you accuse me of being of lower intellectual stature, when you made a blanket generalization with no supporting evidence! That’s just hilarious. It reminds of Sean Hannity calling other people intellectual light weights. Keep it up, dude.

Damn you people are funny. Especially “Athinkingperson” that’s so freakin hilariously ironic. You guys did better with appeals to emotion and fear–the problem for you is, if you’re going to have a discussion based on reason and intellect IS THAT YOU HAVE TO SUPPORT YOUR POINT WITH EVIDENCE.

Jun 9, 2009 - 3:32 pm 56. fred:

Hot Lunch,

The few parts in the Old Testament that are cited differ from Islamic injunctions in this key respect: they are not taken by Jews or Christians as universal injunctions to kill non-Jews at all times and all places. They are historically restricted to their time and place. When Muslims are urged to slay the unbelievers wherever they may be found (Surah 9:5)it is a universal injunction and cannot be abrogated.

But arguments such as yours only solidify my point made above: sloth is an important factor in the evolution of Western apologists for Islam. They neither understand Islam nor Christianity, and have no intention of truly knowing and understanding them, since they are considered primitive retrograde systems of belief.

Jun 9, 2009 - 3:48 pm 57. Leatherneck:

All the archaeology reports allah to be a moon god. The pictures, carvings, and the moon on the Mosques point to Islam worshiping a pagan god.

Mohamed grew up in a family that worshiped allah the moon god. All Mohamed did was tell people allah was the only god. The tribes already worshiped allah as one of many, but that does not make allah the same as the Jewish G-d.

If you Google allah, or moon god, you will see what I mean.

Jun 9, 2009 - 4:14 pm 58. Hot Lunch:

Firstly, I am a muslim. None of my muslim relatives or anyone they know, or in fact, the vast majority of Muslims interpret the Koran as a command to kill Jews. That’s simply false. Have you actually ever met a muslim?

Secondly, Israeli settlers take the old testament literally as a command to own all of the holy land. They are supported in this by government subsidies.

Thirdly, you live in America dude, where a Christian just murdered somebody because he believes he is commanded to do so by the bible.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Nor do you want to.

Jun 9, 2009 - 4:32 pm 59. Ms. Attitude:

1. Blackwater:

Meet yourself from the past:

29. Junior Magoo:

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:19 pm 60. Leatherneck:

I am not aware of any Christian who murders in the name of Christ. That is a false Christian.

Four abortion Dr.’s have been murdered by individuals who may have thought themselves to be Christians.

If you watch the news, or search the Internet you can see Muslims murdering each other every other day. We are starting to see Islams desire for murder inside these United States.

As we listen to the warrior for allah when allowed to adress the court, we see the Koran and allah cause the desire to murder.

A true Christian does not murder in the name of Christ, but a Muslim murders in the name of allah a lot.

Do you understand?

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:29 pm 61. Ms. Attitude:

55. Hot Lunch: Are you also Jr. Magoo?

Sheese, for the sake consistency quit changing your name.

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:37 pm 62. Rashputin:

Hot Lunch (58)

Forget your idea of Islam, I had friends murdered in Iran because they had not been interpreting the Koran correctly, something the Revolution determined based on what others had heard him say in a cafe or restaurant. No, they did not work in the Shah’s government nor were they in the armed forces, they just were looked upon as the appropriate type that make good examples. So, murdered their families in front of them and then murdered them. One child survived because they thought he was a cousin rather than a son. Nice, Huh?

If you are Muslim, have ever been Muslim, or were born to a Muslim father, you WILL be told how to interpret the Koran as those you diagree with say it is interpreted. Of course, for a number of reasons I feel sure you know that and are just helping with the cover story, but I could be wrong. You could be one of those folks that the leaders of Islam will look upon as making an excellent example.

have a nice day

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:41 pm 63. Rashputin:

Leatherneck (57)

You are exactly correct and there are is a massive amount of research both Muslim and Christian that proves you are correct. Worshiping the Moon God is just another pagan method of keeping the ignorant ignorant and in line, that’s why Muslim societies are always backward. It’s a choice they are told comes from their god to remain as the prophet was. They’re pretty much the Amish of pagans. Keep only what the old folks had unless it’s considered essentil to helping Islam conquor (not convert) all Hindus, Christians, Jews, and any other group not Islamic.

Regards and Semper Fi

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:47 pm 64. fred:

Hot Lunch,

1. I am a former Jesuit seminarian and am educated in Catholic schools. I am well read in theology, the Bible, the Qur’an (Yes, I’ve read it in its entirety), and philosophy. This is not a boast. It is the truth. Most of the books that Cato mentioned in response #10, I have read also. So, it would be difficult to kick sand in my eyes or attempt taqiyya successfully on me.

2. The last “revelation” given to Muhammad, according to the Sunnah, is Surah 9:5. Orthodox Islamic scholars hold that later revelations abrogate earlier ones, which means if a later revelation contradicts an early one, the later one cancels out the earlier one. This is complicated by the fact that the Qur’an is not arranged chronologically. One has to go to the traditions and the scholars for an understanding of when a certain surah and verse occurred. As best as we have been able to determine, 9:5 (and many others like it)is a universal injunction to slay the unbelievers, wherever they may be found. The option to offer the Dhimma is restricted to “the People of the Book.” Pagans have only one choice: convert or die.

3. The Bible is not regarded by most Christians as a divine dictation. Some Christians do come close to holding it as a divine dictation, but they are not the majority. There is a very large difference between holding the Bible as divinely inspired versus how Islam regards the Qur’an as a divine dictation. Those who do not grasp this difference are badly in need of a theological education. I believe most of the arguments of moral equivalence that show up in these debates derive from exactly this kind of ignorance.

Finally, this is not the DailyKos or the HuffPost or the Democratic Underground. You are going to have to present a much more educated, sophisticated argument here. We have higher standards in forums such as these.

Jun 9, 2009 - 5:58 pm 65. myth buster:

Hot Lunch, it doesn’t matter. A Muslim who doesn’t interpret the Koran as a command to kill Jews is as relevant as a so-called Christian who denies that Jesus claimed, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.” The ignorance or apostasy of the individual in no way changes what the text says.

Jun 9, 2009 - 6:05 pm 66. ex-democrat:

i will leave the forthcoming comprehensive vivisection of ‘hot lunch’s idiocy to others and merely thank it for its implicit admission that hundreds of millions of muslims (i.e. 1.5 billion minus a ‘vast majority’) do indeed interpret the Koran as a command to kill Jews.

or did you misspeak, mr/ms intellectual heavyweight?

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:01 pm 67. Tri Geek:

Hot Lunch:
As a Muslim do you denounce the acts of those who create terror in the name of Islam? You speak of one crazy guy who kills a doctor as proof of Christian support of killing. How about the clowns who set off the car bomb in the Pakistani hotel killing scores of innocents? How about the Islamic terrorists who set off bombs in Muslim weddings? And don’t call us Dude! The US have saved more Muslim lives than Muslim countries have. You can condemn US subsidies to Isreal, but you don’t mention how much meny we send to Muslim countries. Why is that?

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:18 pm 68. fred:

“Have you actually ever met a muslim?”

Plenty. Starting with my room mate during my last two years in college. A devout Iranian Shia from Tehran who came here just before the 1978 revolution. I met Arabs and Persians in college and down through the years.

I also met Iranians who were Communists/atheists who had to flee Iran after Khomeini came to power. They had helped him overthrow the Shah (Jimmy Dhimmi Carter also played a role in that too)and the payback from the Khomeinists was death and exile.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:22 pm 69. Leatherneck:

#63 Rashputin,

Kill them All!

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:51 pm 70. Cato:

fred @ 54 – your explanation has merit; much of the academic world that does the writing is lazy as hell and invested in what they learned once (and that still pleases their friends and gets them invited to the right parties). And, of course, you are certainly correct that the physical cowardice exhibited by most academics (who avoided service in Vietnam) is accompanied by a particularly repulsive combination of moral cowardice and self-serving self-righteousness. Faugh!

I still incline to the idea that, whatever the motives of those who happily went along with the whitewash of Islam, folks like Bush motivated by fear of the reaction of the American people if an deep understanding of just how thoroughly hostile to civilization Islam really is were widespread in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. The Crusade that would have been unleashed would have made that preached by Urban II look like the proverbial Sunday school picnic. It still may come to that if Obama doesn’t succeed in destroying the republic and the West.

Jun 9, 2009 - 7:54 pm 71. Hot Lunch:

“If you are Muslim, have ever been Muslim, or were born to a Muslim father, you WILL be told how to interpret the Koran as those you diagree with say it is interpreted.”

This is simply wrong. I also wonder if you really do have friends in Iran, since you don’t make a distinction between shi a and sunni. This is like making no distinction between Lutheran and born again.

Fred:
“3. The Bible is not regarded by most Christians as a divine dictation.”
Come on, dude, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Do you realize that there’s a whole movement to not teach evolution because it contradicts the literal meaning of the bible?

Greek:
“Actually, I said it was Israel’s government subsidizing the settlers. I made no mention of how much the US gives either Israel or muslim countries and has nothing to do with my point.

Indeed. What’s funny about all these arguments is that there are equal arguments for every other religion. Every religion produces fundamentalists; and in every country those fundamentalists are cultivated for political expediency. The argument here is that there is something specific about Islam because it supposedly commands Muslims to kill non-believers. The Old Testament as I noted, is filled with such commands and commands to genocide.

What an absurd argument to make about any religion. But to say that hundreds of millions of adherents to a religion are all just waiting to kill a non-believer is simply not supported by any factual information. Think about. You are saying that one fifth of the world’s population wants to murder the other four fifths; if this were actually true, you would see tens of millions of murders yearly, a virtual holocaust. Any country with a mulsim population would be–by the definition of the idiots here–in constant combat with the other populations. This is simply not the case. Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, Morocco, Algeria, Indonesia–these are all countries that have mixed religious polities that live in relative harmony [though I have no doubt some of the feeble minded here will go forth to find an example of a religiously motivated muslim killer to prove that therefore ALL Muslims must be murderers.]

This is a discredited string of logic, and it has been rejected by even most of the toothless hillbillies that used to support it. You’re all out on a limb, and your leaders and pundits are sawing away behind you.

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:02 pm 72. James:

Dear Jr. Magoo: If the leader of the free world extolled the virtues of German Nazism, I would hope that you would be appalled. One cannot even speak a kind word of the Nazi, and with good reason. You miss the point of Bawer’s article (as you miss the point time and time again with your emotionally based rants). Islam is not a religion of “peace”. In fact, it’s not just a religion, but a religion/political/cultural way of living. It is based upon a faith established by the sword, by a man who was a child molester (Muhammad married a seven year old girl, but waited until she was 9 to consummate the marriage), a wife stealer (he stole his son’s wife), a conqueror (he conquerored his enemies by force, which included the people of Mecca, with the sword), and a murderer (he ordered the murder of thousands of Jew and “unbelievers”). Today, we have Islamic nations that have codified the stoning of woman because they were raped. Saudi Arabia and Iran give the death penalty for homosexuality. The sickness goes on and on. Obama talks of “reconciliation” between American and the “Muslim World”, when in fact were were never conciled in the first instance. Now go do what you do best on this post: avoid the topic, go in another direction (maybe you’ll rant about of the evils of Christianity), and make excuse after excuse for your man-God Obama, who you’ll worship as his rips the freedom from underneath you. Can anyone here say Dhimmi-Magoo?

Jun 9, 2009 - 9:03 pm 73. Realist:

History records that the three biggest mass murderers of the 20th Century were Socialists and were beloved by their gullible, hysterical and emotional followers. These were Mao, Stalin and Hitler and now in 21st Century America we have another Socialist, charismatic, lying usurper as head of a powerful state. I hope that history does not repeat itself but unfortunately it usually does. So now you know what you have to look forward to America when the LIAR Messiah, Teleprompter Kid, Laughing Jackass and exterme left wing Socialist Barrack HUSSEIN O-BOW-ma’s policies come to fruition.

To all the ‘neolibs’ who are screaming Hitler wasn’t a socialist consider this the NAZI’s were the National SOCIALIST German WORKERS Party to give them their full and proper title and they proposed extreme socialist,anti Capitalist measures in their election promises they were also anti semitic but toned it down before they got in to power . Ring a bell????. So ‘neolibs’ you have two choices either accept that Hitler was truly ‘one of you’ or accept that a charismatic, LYING , foreign born usrurper can infiltrate and take over a Socialist ‘neolib’ movement and use it for his own ends aided by the hysterical, gullin=ble, emotional worship he gets from the morons that follow him. Either way you are screwed.

Jun 9, 2009 - 11:35 pm 74. Marc Malone:

#66 ex-democrat – You posted exactly what I was about to. When I read hot lunch’s post, I thought, “Oh, boy, here it comes now.” Then there was your excellent follow-up maiming. Well done.

Jun 10, 2009 - 12:49 am 75. Marc Malone:

Magoo – You really shouldn’t comment on this subject. Some of the people here are real experts on this subject. This is not the usual forum. The usual regurgitated generalities will not play here. I, too, have read the Qu’ran, but I acknowledge my betters here. I leave the butchery of ignorant positions to them.

Jun 10, 2009 - 12:54 am 76. twobyfour:

68. fred

Actually, the Iranian commies and socialists thought that Khomeini was helping them, and once the whole thing is over, they would emerge as a leading force. Well, it went rather well for them, didnit, 28,000 terminated and more exiled.

It is fascinating to see our lefties making the same assumptions. They must be reading some fictional history (Gnome Chimpsky?) or none at all.

They are lucky that we do read history and at some point we’d save their sorry asses. Reluctantly, because they’d never stop their loonacies.

Jun 10, 2009 - 2:22 am 77. twobyfour:

As MCM (Mainstream Cabal Media) goes, it is likely that there would be a special appreciation of their complicity in the “interesting times”. As Verlaine once put is “their heads will find the difference by which their asses are heavier”.

Jun 10, 2009 - 2:30 am 78. The Infidel Alliance:

In a perverse way, Obama is the best worst thing that could have happened to the West. While there has been an ever growing understanding about the reality of Islam and the threat it poses, when Obama stands on the world stage and says things that are obviously false, millions of more people start questing, reading, and understanding.

Like many of the posters here, pre-9/11 I was totally ignorant of what was ACTUALLY taught in Islam, even though I had spent time in 3 Islamic countries. As I opened the Koran, delved into the Hadith, read about Muhammed, and studied the militant spread of Islam, I was just shocked. Its hate & intolerance, its violence and gore, its perversion….it is truly the antithesis of western democratic values (which I have also come to clearly understand are Judeo-Christian derived).

As we learn to understand Islam’s prime directive, as expressed in the infamous “Verse of the Sword”, we have to also understand how to fight Islamization. The easiest way I have found, that Muslims & non-Muslims alike find shocking (but for different reasons) is to simply expose the truth about Islam’s founder, Muhammed.

Muhammed is Islam’s Achille’s heel. To simply explain what he did in his life as a “holy prophet”, how he lived, and what he commanded his followers to do, exposes the man as a first rate barbarian.

Muhammed was a sadistic sociopath, a murderer, a decapitator, a mutilator, an amputator, a slaver, a thief and a looter, a warlord, a misogynist, a paedophile rapist, a genocidist and the archetypal Islamic terrorist.

Anyone who defends this man as “an excellent model of conduct” is either ignorant of the facts, a Madrassa brainwashed idiot, or a sadistic sociopath just like Muhammed. All 3 are dangerous.

To expose the truth about Muhammed is to destroy the foundation of Islam. When the foundation is destroyed, the threat is gone.

Speak out about the barbarity of Muhammed.

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 5:22 am 79. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear #28. Junior Magoo, #39. American Muslim, and #71. Hot Lunch,

The Koran (33:21) states that in the Muhammed, Muslims have “an excellent model of conduct”.

Muhammed

Is chopping off heads ever an excellent model of conduct?

Is chopping off limbs ever an excellent model of conduct?

Is raping a little 9 year old girl ever an excellent model of conduct?

Is cutting the hands & feet off fellow human beings, then burning their eyeballs out with hot iron pokers, then casting them still alive on scorching hot rocks under the searing Arabian sky to die an excruciating death an excellent model of conduct?

Is stealing another persons private property an excellent model of conduct?

Is taking another human being as a slave an excellent model of conduct?

Is enslaving women as sex slaves an excellent model of conduct?

Would a perfect man (“al-insan al-kamil”) do any of these things?

Is “A single endeavor (of fighting) in Allah’s Cause in the forenoon or in the afternoon better than the world and whatever is in it.”?

Is “…(to love to) be martyred in Al1ah’s Cause and then get resurrected and then get martyred, and then get resurrected again and then get martyred and then get resurrected again and then get martyred.” an excellent model of conduct?

Is to “Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords.” an excellent model of conduct?

Is “There is no emigration after the Conquest but Jihad and intentions. When you are called (by the Muslim ruler) for fighting, go forth immediately.” an excellent model of conduct?

Is “If there is any evil omen in anything, then it is in the woman, the horse and the house.” an excellent model of conduct?

Is “I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror” an excellent model of conduct?

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 6:04 am 80. emil:

I was once more tolerant of Islam. Until September 12, 2001. I was an adjunct history instructor at a typical university, and all the talk was of course about the attacks. I was never really much of a liberal/leftist, but I casually mentioned that “Islam was not to blame,” when a courageous student replied that it was. He had lived in the Middle East, and began telling me his stories. I began looking into it myself, and have long since concluded that Islam contains precious little peace. Examine it for yourself and it will be undeniable.

Jun 10, 2009 - 6:07 am 81. fred:

#78 Infidel Alliance,

I learned about the ministry of the Coptic priest, Fr. Zakaria Botros, over at jihadwatch.org, the excellent site of Robert Spencer, whose books more people should read.

Fr. Botros performs a ministry to the Muslims and Arabs. He lives in an unknown place and has to have security because he is under a death threat.

What he does is present to Muslims exactly what is found in the Qur’an and ahadith. That and the history of Muhammad’s deeds. He does minimal editorializing. And for citing back to Muslims what is in their writings, they want to kill him.

But you know what? He actually gains many Muslim converts to Christianity. His courage and vast knowledge are a stark contrast to the servile, disgusting dhimmi attitudes of our policy and academic elites. Fr. Botros’ example is in the finest of the apostolic tradition. The twelve disciples of Jesus would be proud of what this man is doing.

Jun 10, 2009 - 6:48 am 82. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear #81 fred,

I also know about the courageous Father Botros.

He does the same thing I am recommending – challenging Muslims to defend the indefensible.

Keep spreading the word!

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 7:11 am 83. Mark:

Since 9/11 many have educated themselves about Islam. It will only take another major terrorist attack on the US (which will happen because aggressors always over-reach themselves) before the political class has no option but to abandon the Religion of Peace mantra.

Read jihadwatch.org. Educate others. Stop Sharia.

Jun 10, 2009 - 7:35 am 84. Hot Lunch:

James,
“Now go do what you do best on this post: avoid the topic, go in another direction (maybe you’ll rant about of the evils of Christianity), and make excuse after excuse for your man-God Obama, who you’ll worship as his rips the freedom from underneath you. Can anyone here say Dhimmi-Magoo?”

And of course, I’ve done none of these things. I’m pointing out to you that you could make the same commentary about any religion. You mention the Nazis–and, of course, to answer your question, the reason that the President doesn’t admiringly speak of the Nazis is because that official party of Germany is on the record as having exterminated six million people, possibly the worst case of genocide in modern history. I find it interesting how the blood from this crime has managed to avoid other European people–no one here would contend that all Europeans [and Christians, for that matter] are implicated in the crimes of the Nazis simply because of a superficial similarity of culture or an actual ancestral connection.

The problem for you, with your attempt to link all Muslims together in one big lump and to judge them all the same by listing the individual crimes of some Muslim people or countries that claim to be Islamic republics, is that most Americans recognize that as the most unintelligent form of bigotry. You don’t support your arguments with fact, because that would be impossible of course. There is no way to prove that Muslims are compelled by the Koran to murder non-believers, because people already note that the logical outcome of that fact if it were true, would be murder and pillage on a scale that we have not yet seen on this earth. Most Americans are capable of recognizing the work of demagogues, and thanks to the civil rights movement, are quite capable of recognizing the methods you’re using here.

But by all means, keep digging your lonely hole. I’m happy to throw the dirt back over your stupid and disgusting beliefs after you’re finished.

Jun 10, 2009 - 7:40 am 85. Hot Lunch:

Emil

“I was once more tolerant of Islam. Until September 12, 2001. I was an adjunct history instructor at a typical university, and all the talk was of course about the attacks. I was never really much of a liberal/leftist, but I casually mentioned that “Islam was not to blame,” when a courageous student replied that it was. He had lived in the Middle East, and began telling me his stories. I began looking into it myself, and have long since concluded that Islam contains precious little peace. Examine it for yourself and it will be undeniable.”

If you made anything clear by this post, its that you’re certainly not a history instructor.

Jun 10, 2009 - 7:47 am 86. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear #84 Hot Lunch,

ALL Muslims ARE linked together in one big lump – the reverence of the brutal killer Muhammed as their “prophet”.

Agreed?

Take the “Muhammed Challenge” as cited in my post #79 above.

I dare you.

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 8:00 am 87. fred:

Don’t feed the trolls.

Jun 10, 2009 - 8:03 am 88. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear #84 Hot Lunch,

I agree with you when you say “Most Americans are capable of recognizing the work of demagogues”.

Since 9/11/01 most Americans recognize Muhammed as a demagogue supreme.

A sadistic, sociopathic, murdering, lying, looting, enslaving, raping, decapitating, amputating, mutilating, genocidist demagogue motivated by greed, power & lust.

What a repulsive criminal and vile human being this man was!

If you apply Sharia law to him, he’d have to cut off his own hands & feet for stealing, cut out his own tongue for lying, cut off his own head for apostacy.

The man was just a successful Charles Manson.

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 8:21 am 89. Hot Lunch:

Ha Ha Ha. Keep it coming, Infidel Alliance. If your biggest threat you can come up with is a guy who died a thousand years ago, its going to be very interesting watching you sell your story to the mainstream. What about Genghis Khan? What about Caligula? What about Napoleon?

You sir, to use a quote closer to your level of intellectual capacity, are a maroon.

Jun 10, 2009 - 10:23 am 90. James:

Mr Magoo/Hot Lunch:

Whatver your handle, you state (unbelievably, I may add): “There is no way to prove that Muslims are compelled by the Koran to murder non-believers….” Why don’t we start by referencing the Koran. Tell me sir, what official major religious publication states “kill, kill all the unbelievers”? What “holy book” directs the adherents to place “unbelievers” into one of two categories: the dead, or a kind of economic and cultural serfdom? Go ahead, challenge me to to quote, word for word, chapter and verse, the never-ending directives of the Koran and Haddith to kill, maim, enslave, and rape. You’re out of your league on this one. The article is about Bruce Bawers reflections. Your responses are about other things. That’s my point in the first instance. If you have arguments that show Bawer is incorrect, state them. Simply saying that Americans are “bigots” and “racists” and Bush was Hitler doesn’t cut it. God Bless….

Jun 10, 2009 - 11:52 am 91. Marc Malone:

#84 Hot Lunch – The reason we are not tarred by Nazism is that we fought against it. Muslims almost universally fail to denounce Islamic terrorism. They dasn’t.

Btw, the Holocaust was not even close to being the worst atrocity in recent human history. That honor goes to the Communists like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and others. Saddam Hussein was working on catching up. He was up to 600k of his own citizens. Then there are the Muslim-backed genocides in… well, wherever there has been genocide.

The Anbar awakening happened because of the imposition of Islamic Sharia Law. They came face to face with the beast, and rejected it. Today, they are free. In the elections, every party with Islam in the name was soundly rejected. I think it only happened, however, because they had a clear contrast between the maniacs and America. The choice became clear and easy.

Jun 10, 2009 - 12:16 pm 92. Meryl:

71. Hot Lunch “This is like making no distinction between Lutheran and born again.”

I don’t consider myself responsible for educating you, so I’ll just point out this one line as evidence that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

You’re just throwing phrases around that you heard someone else use in an argument where they wanted to shout someone down and so you figured they might work here.

If you knew even a modicum of theological facts about who constitutes Lutheranism today, you would know that there are hundreds of thousands of Lutherans who make absolutely no distinction between “Lutheran” and “born again”.

Your response to Fred lets us know that you don’t know the difference between verbal and plenary inspiration, and what significance that difference holds to a variety of “born again” believers.

“…if this were actually true, you would see tens of millions of murders yearly,” … and your shallow reasoning here lets us know that you don’t know about the Islamic doctrine defined as “The House of War” until the time is right to rise up.

Like I said, your education is not my responsibility, but just wanted to toss these elemental things out there to alert folks who might otherwise being impressed with your willingness to throw words and phrases around.

Jun 10, 2009 - 12:52 pm 93. Robin_Shadowes:

The muslim mullahs, sheiks and ayatollahs wants to control the entire life of their lower rank fellow muslims. Not once or twice. 24/7 365 days a year from the cradle to the grave. Every act in your daily life as a pious muslim needs to be controlled, to have specific and exact rules written down as how to properly conduct yourself as a pious muslim. Not all of these rules are violent or barbaric per se. Some are downright ridicolous and plain silly! I would like to give you an example of this. I hope the moderators of this site does not find this obscene because it is not my meaning at all. What you’re about to read is 10 rules of how to behave in the bathroom, that is if you’re a pious muslim of course. Please note that if you find the text a bit hard to read, I’ve translated it from a swedish blog (with a short commentary at the end by the blogger)using google but the original text was published on a muslim site in swedish. From the grammatcial errors and such I conclude that the author is not an ethnic swede. Just to show you what control freaks they are.

How you should behave in the toilet

1. It is mustahab (recommended) to cover his head with, for example, a kufi or similar when you are in the toilet.

2. To wear shoes, that is, for example, sandals, and this because it is good and you stick cleaner.

3. When you are in the toilet, “says a du’a (for example: Allahoma inni eudhu bike minals Khubsi wal khabaisi) and then go in with left foot first.

4. You should do everything continues in the toilet and not sit there too long for the toilet is a dirty place. Many people make a mistake here because they, for example, read newspaper, watch television or talk on the phone for several hours in the bathroom.

5. you shall not speak in the toilet. Angels are not in the bathroom, but if you talk you are forcing the increase in to record what you say.

6. You should always wash your hands before you come in contact with your body and after. This is to stop the risk of bacteria spreading further.

7. When you pee, you should sit while you do it. It is much better because that urinet will help out and you stick cleaner. When you stand up is great risk that urinet ports on one’s clothes or around and it can cause you to go at it. Our noble prophet (God’s peace and blessings be upon him) knew about this and today’s researchers have found that if you sit while wets less likely to get prostate cancer really much.
There is a Hadith which says that the Prophet (God’s peace and blessings be upon him) used to be when he peed. The explanation for this is that if for example you are at home or with someone you know, when you can because you know that hygiene is important for Muslims. But if you want phorate your needs in a public place where hygiene is not always up, you should instead pee standing up.

8. When you shower, be sure to shower from the top and then down. This is to prevent the bacteria to get up and make you sick.

9. It is also important that you cover yourself as much as possible. Modesty is part of iman and therefore you should cover your aura (from navel to the knees for men) while showers and only uncover the parts when you shower the part.

10. When you must leave the bathroom, go out with right foot and says “Ghufranake”. ”

Rule 6 is quite reasonable, but unfortunately it is not enough always to just wash their hands, such as medical and food industry where Muslims, women, insist on wearing long for Allah’s sake, but for home use, it is a sensible rule for moment. But as a whole must also include this rule, it is as part of the story for a good (male?) Muslim.

Islam is for all the control freak, finicky and NEUROTIC not going to cure in psychiatry. I wonder what Dr Freud would have said about this, that it has not yet submitted the anal stage, right?

From Forum Svenskmuslim.se how you should behave in the toilet

Jun 10, 2009 - 2:06 pm 94. Tabris:

The above are all great discussions and arguments why Islam is such a terrible cult. Since 9/11 people have been digging up facts about islam and try to make non-islamist aware of the dangers and vileness of it. Currently however it is time to start fighting back in a way like # 79 The Infidel Alliance is proposing. Islam on the other hand is fighting is very hard. They use every means possible from hard to soft to take over the world. Not only do they use terrorists but many more tactics to get their way. Islam is a very clever and shrewd enemy that is very much underestimated by the west. Especially by the left who reason that they can work together with islam to overthrow the current establishment.

Who in this comments section knows the strategies islam uses and who of you can come up with counter measures?

Jun 10, 2009 - 3:10 pm 95. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear #89. Hot Lunch:

As I expected:

“Ha Ha Ha. Keep it coming, Infidel Alliance. If your biggest threat you can come up with is a guy who died a thousand years ago, its going to be very interesting watching you sell your story to the mainstream. What about Genghis Khan? What about Caligula? What about Napoleon?

You sir, to use a quote closer to your level of intellectual capacity, are a maroon.”

Dear readers, as you can see, Mr. Hot Lunch, a self avowed Muslim cannot defend his barbarian prophet.

Hot Lunch, there are no religions that revere Ghengis Khan, Caligula, or Napolean. Is that the best you can do?

Why won’t you defend your creepy sadist “prophet” Mr. Hot Lunch? Are you a non-believer Muslim? An apostate?

The simple facts about Islam:
- Its founder was a perverted sadistic barbarian genocidist (kind of a combination of Ghengis Khan/Caligula as Mr. Hot Lunch inadvertantly recognized)
- Muhammed is not a “holy man” but rather an “evil man”.
- The entire “religion” of Islam is built on a foundation of violence, hate, intolerance established by Muhammed.
- When exposed, the entire “religion” collapses.

Let’s get the word out. Expose the truth about Muhammed which in turn exposes the truth about Islam.

Muhammed – Islam’s Achilles heel.

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 3:15 pm 96. Hot Lunch:

Meryl,

Lutherans are not “born again Christians” [who are also known as evangelicals”, though Lutherans do consider themselves to be “born again” there aren’t many who would share that apellation with the majority of non-denominational Christians who use the same term. The biggest difference between Lutherans and “born again” Christians is a denomination and structured church service. The rest of the differenes are enormous as well, and generally are about doctrine, and certainly the establishment of a church directorship which establishes doctrine.

By all means don’t waste your time educating me–you would be wasting my time too, since you’re talking out of your ass.

http://www.porthopestjohn.com/Pastor%27s%20Corner.htm

Q: What is a born again Christian?

A: All believers in Christ are born again Christians, but not all Christians use this term. We Lutherans rarely use this term for ourselves.

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/showthread.php?t=146673

On the other hand, evangelicals typically hold a different view of being ‘born again”…that we become true Christians when at a particular moment of our life we choose to repent from our sins, completely commit our lives to Jesus Christ, and personally accept the salvation that Christ won for us on the cross.

Its not surprising that you conflate shi a and sunni simply because of what seem to be, to you, superficial similarities. You don’t even know anything about the religions common to your own culture.

Jun 10, 2009 - 3:29 pm 97. Tabris:

The other Achilles heel is the quran itself. Moslems claim that it written by allah himself and a copy of it exists in heaven. Allah is perfect therefore the quran is perfect. Find verses that contradict with current science and show that the quran is not perfect and therefore not written by God but by men. This destroys the truth of the quran and therefore the believe system of any intelligent moslem.

Jun 10, 2009 - 4:30 pm 98. infidel4life:

As I’ve stated so often before, islam is as islam does.

I think the Mohammedan’s have spoken loud enough for the world to know what they are. It’s time for the rest of the world to take up arms against the Mohammedans. Time to send these 7th century barbarians back to the hell-holes they came from.

Also another great web site in addition to jihadwatch.org is http://www.thereligionofpeace.com

It’s opened my eyes and provided me the answers I’ve been looking for since 9/11/01.

Jun 10, 2009 - 4:33 pm 99. Barry:

Question: I believe it is generally understood that Christian converts from Islam are under a sentence of death. How is it that Barack Obama who was raised as a Muslim has evaded a fatwa or two calling for his termination? Just curious.

Jun 10, 2009 - 4:48 pm 100. fred:

Am I missing something? I can’t figure out what exactly it is that “Hot Lunch” is driving at in his attempted exposition about Evangelical Lutherans? I’m not sure what it has to do with the article that leads in this thread.

Jun 10, 2009 - 5:37 pm 101. Meryl:

Wow. Now I’m all impressed.

So. Now we also know that you can cut and paste real good. Doesn’t change my comments (noting also that you didn’t address the issue of plenary vs. verbal inspiration).

I have never, ever in my life used my ass for the purpose of speech. I’ve always appreciated that I was provided a mouth, front and center, for that purpose.

You don’t much like being questioned, do you?

I am curious, though. Do YOU talk out of YOUR ass? Can’t say I’ve ever known anyone who actually did, but I suppose there’s a first time for everything.

Actually, I assume you just had to talk dirty at me because I made you mad. Silly boy.

Jun 10, 2009 - 6:12 pm 102. Ms. Attitude:

96. Hot Lunch:

What a loser!!! If you wanted to break apart Christianity you should’ve broken the line between Catholics and Protestants, not between two Protestants denominations. Born again is a term and it’s personal to the believer. You see, Mr. Hot Lunch, we aren’t Muslim, we are allowed to pick and choose what we want, we can worship how we want, etc. Islam is a legalistic religion.

There are many on here that can “debate” your side of the religion argument better than you because they took the time to study your religion.

You have just been put in your place by a woman…I bet that just sickens you!!! LOL

Jun 10, 2009 - 6:28 pm 103. Torqued Marine (USMC):

hot lunch

96 “The biggest difference between Lutherans and “born again” Christians is a denomination and structured church service.”

You are a very small person. The fact that you have to resort to nasty comments and useless diatribes, is to say the least disturbing.

The differences between the many Christian Denominations has nothing to do with being saved or not. Jesus said,” I am the way, the truth and the life, the only way to God is through me.” All christian Denominations believe this.

Please remember both religion and their denominations are man made, not God made. It is our way to have structure in the way we choose to worship and praise him.

He did not say that we should resit creeds, as the Lutherans do(I was raised in the Lutheran Church),or the Catholics. He did how ever tell us in his word to follow the Law(old Test. in case you are wondering), and to spread the good news of his grace (that would be the New Test. again if you are wondering).

Point is if you do not choose to use the phase Saved or Born again that’s your right. Don’t get all BUTT HURT when someone does not agree with you.

I wish all of your days are filled with CUPCAKES

Semper Fi.

Jun 10, 2009 - 6:53 pm 104. InfidelAlliance:

Dear “Hot Lunch”,

What we ALL (Muslim & “infidel/kafir” alike) know about Shia, Sunni, Salafi, Wahabbi, Sufi and every other Islamic sect is that they have 2 things in common:

1) the reverence of the sadistic barbarian Muhammed as their ultimate role model, and

2) the reverence of the hate filled Koran, with its intolerance, its violence, its misogyny, and its commands to kill as the direct immutable word of Allah.

Why haven’t you come to the defense of your barbarian prince, Muhammed you coward? It’s because you know you can’t and still be a civilized human being. Right?

Muhammed. The Koran. Islamic violence.

Res Ipsa Loquitur

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 7:37 pm 105. InfidelAlliance:

Since the coward Muslim “Hot Lunch” won’t stand up for his barbarian prophet, Muhammed, are there ANY Muslims out there who will?

Please. Anyone?

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 10, 2009 - 9:09 pm 106. Hot Lunch:

God, what a bunch of idiots.

Jun 10, 2009 - 9:46 pm 107. InfidelAlliance:

“Hot Lunch”, don’t be such a pathetic coward.

If you had an ounce of intellectual integrity, you would at least TRY to mount a defense for your barbarian prophet.

When the oxymoron of “Islamic intellectual integrity” meets the demand to defend the indefensible actions of Muhammed, it’s always the same old story….”you don’t understand”…”you’re a bunch of idiots”…”what about Christianity?”….riots in the street…torched cars…death fatwas.

Islam is a barbarian religion, founded by a 7th century Charles Manson.

Look deep into your heart, soul & mind Hot Lunch, and I know you will ultimately agree. And if you agree you will reject Islam and join the civilsed world.

Unless of course you too are a barbarian.

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 11, 2009 - 2:18 am 108. fnord:

“American martyrs” .. “Muslim cancer”.. “the reverence of the hate filled Koran, with its intolerance, its violence, its misogyny, and its commands to kill as the direct immutable word of Allah.”

Y`all aware that you sound just like germans in the 30s? Just substitute muslim w. Jew and Koran with Talmud, and you got it down pat. Hell, Ive seen calls for exterminationcamps on other threads in here. Its clear that you dont give a shit about the troops, who are currently trying to win the hearts and minds of the Afghan and Iraqi people.

I find it fascinating that mr. Bawer, who lives approx 700 meters away from me doesnt comment on the extremism of the hatred he obviously likes to provoke.

Jun 11, 2009 - 5:50 am 109. Ms. Attitude:

108. fnord: You, sir, are wrong. The hatred of the Jews stemmed from lies. Islam is a hate religion, read the Koran. Also, watch the videos on Atlasshrugged.com. The ones of Islam torture. Their religion calls for it, their government calls for it and allows it. Women being beheaded because she has shamed her family, men having their arms pulled off. Men having ropes tied to their arms and legs and being pulled apart or their heads cut off, all to a cheering crowd. Barbaric! Our president is approving all of this by doing nothing and pacifying them. Study their religion before you jump to their defense.

We aren’t talking about Arabs, a race, we are talking about Islam, a cult of evil. Who did our president say he would defend? Not Arabs but Islam.

Jun 11, 2009 - 6:56 am 110. fnord:

Ah, so the difference between anti-semitism and anti-islamism is that you are right, and they really *do* need to be exterminated. I remember the Sturmer and their theories that the Jews were seeking to control the world through capitalism, and in many ways it was *true* that the Rotschilds etc. were Jewish. Dont you see how a nazi would answer almost exactly the same as you? Or how a modern day muslim would be able to point to Gaza etc. and mouth the same accussations about the Jewish faith? I have studied the religion, or rather, the religionS of Islam. There is as much difference between Sufi traditions and hardcore Takfiri/Wahabists as there is between J Street and Shas. Once you start generalizing a group, and then ascribing it secret plans (Eurabia, etc.) then you are stuck in the exact same mindset that created the nazis.

Several of my Norwegian friends have served in Afghanistan (Im a bit too old) and this sort of hate-spew is directly counterproductive. I find it fascinating that mr. Bawer lives in my country, uses my countrys welfaresystem and other communal arrangements yet uses this opportunity to make conflicts inside my country worse. Him and his friends over at document.no have been working for years now in bringing about conflict between muslims and others up here, and I wish he would get the f&%k out of my city and go home. We dont need his race-war perspective on our work with integration and adapting to the new world of paralel cultures.

Jun 11, 2009 - 7:41 am 111. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear 110. “fnord”,

You are an ignorant ostrich sir, with your head in the sand, blinded and purposely ignoring reality.

No one is calling for the extermination of any Muslims. Stating facts about Islam is simply stating facts.

Muslims kill because Muhammed killed, and the Koran calls for Muslims to kill.

Muslims rape, steal, torture, mutilate, decapitate and enslave because Muhammed raped, stole, tortured, mutilated, decapitated and enslaved, and the Koran calls for Muslims to do all those things.

Whatever differences there are between the Islamic sects you studied, ALL OF THEM revere the bloodthirsty, perverted, genocidist terrorist, Muhammed.

Whatever differences there are between the Islamic sects you studied, ALL OF THEM consider the Koran, and its hate filled, violent verses to be the immutable word of Allah.

Bloodthirsty terrorist “prophet”.
Hate filled, violent verses.

Islam is a killing rreligion because its “prophet” was a killer.

Jun 11, 2009 - 8:06 am 112. fnord:

Infidel Alliance: Again, exactly the same could be said about the Jews, as well as for some “christian” sects. After all, the Jews slaughtered the Philistines, did they not? Did not Jahve smite Sodom and Gomorra, and so lay the ground for the killings of people like Dr. Tiller? Etc. The West hating all muslims is exactly what Al Quaeda wants. Do you want the terrorists to win? Writing like you do sure seems so.

In my city Oslo, the same city Bawer lives in, there is so little violence that you americans would find it funny. Out of the 72 women killed by their husbands the last 5 years out of a population of 5.2 million, under half of those were foreigners. I work every day with muslim troubled children, and so indirectly with some of the muslims in this city who do the same. There is a lot of problematic points in the conflict between islam and the west, but screaming at the top of ones lungs doesnt solve the everyday situations, it just creates more violence. Wich is what anti-jihadists like mr. Bawer seeks to create, just so he can sell more books on the blood of innocents on all sides of the conflict. As a norwegian former soldier (we have the draft) I strongly object to him and his nationalistic Koran-burning associates setting my comrades in Afghan in danger, as well as making Oslo a less safe city by pissing off 8% of its population.

Jun 11, 2009 - 8:25 am 113. Meryl:

So now, simply saying what is so and refusing to be shouted down is equated with “screaming at the top of ones lungs”.

Thanks for demonstrating your idea of what constitutes quality dialogue.

Jun 11, 2009 - 9:57 am 114. fnord:

Meryl: Dont you agree that generalizing a billion people into a murderous conspiracy is pretty fckin populistic? According to Infidel Alliance, all US allies in Afghanistan and Iraq “revere the bloodthirsty, perverted, genocidist terrorist, Muhammed.” How does this sound any different from standard anti-semitism?

Jun 11, 2009 - 10:15 am 115. Meryl:

114.fnord

I don’t think that stating the truth about Islam should be equated with “generalizing a billion people into a murderous conspiracy”.

I have personal acquaintances who are Muslim and I do not assume they are part of a murderous conspiracy.

The fact they are not personally part of a murderous conspiracy does not change what Islam is, which is what nobody is (apparently) allowed to talk about.

Since you are generous in this way toward those who support Islam, I presume you also see clearly that the murderers who killed the abortion doctor in Kansas and the security guard at the Holocaust Museum do not represent Christians, conservatives, or those who are pro-Israel. Thanks for your support.

Jun 11, 2009 - 11:47 am 116. aisha:

So full of hate. Shame on you Mr. Bawer for promoting hatred and intolenrace of thoes who do not share your zionist views!!

Jun 11, 2009 - 12:22 pm 117. fred:

Meryl, et al.

I have carefully read the posts of “fnord” and I find that he has been using the straw man method of argument. I could not recognize our views in what he had distilled into his comments. We have been engaging in theological criticism of Islam in this thread. No one is calling for genocide of Muslims.

I cited the ministry that the Coptic priest, Fr. Zakaria Botros, has been engaged in with Muslim audiences. What he does is to select and highlight passages from the Qur’an, citations from ahadith, and incidents from the Sira (the Muslim biolgraphy of Muhammad’s life). People like Fr. Botros, and presumably most of us here, do not hate individual Muslims. Yes, we hate the cult of Allah that Muhammad founded, because it IS violent, hateful, imperialistic, misogynistic, and sanctifies sin. Not to mention the practice of taqiyya, which is deliberately lying to infidels in order to advance the jihad.

When we arrive at a condition of society, as we have today, when it is forbidden to critique an ideology or a cult, and those who do it are personally attacked, we are in the advanced stage of cultural Marxism, which is what political correctness really is. It means the sphere of our freedom is shrinking. In Europe it already is a crime to criticize Islam – EVEN USING THEIR OWN SCRIPTURES AND AHADITH AS THE BASIS FOR SUCH CRITIQUE! If current trends persist, this is going to happen here. Already we are at an early stage of dhimmification in the United States. Europe is much more advanced along that road. Mr. Bawer, who has lived in Europe, would certainly agree with my assessment.

Jun 11, 2009 - 12:36 pm 118. fred:

I can see we are drawing Muslims (”aisha”) and their apologists (fnord) to this site because we dare to criticize Islam. We are told that criticism of Islam = hatred and racism. This is the STANDARD TACTIC they use in Europe and here in the U.S. to shut down criticism of Islam. By labeling us as hate criminals and racists they hope to intimidate us. They also hope to prey on the ignorant, who will believe them and cause the simple minded to look away from us.

Shame on you “aisha.” By the way, Muhammad’s Aisha was wed to him when she was six years old and he waited until she was nine years old to take her virginity. And he already had a stable full of wives, one of whom was the wife of his adopted son whom he had stolen!

And I am only telling you something that you would hear from Fr. Botros on his Arabic broadcasted show. No slander. No hatred. Only the truth about “The Perfect Man Muhammad.” Then, Fr. Botros asks his Arab audience if they really want to imitate this behavior. So, he gets death threats for exposing the truth about Muhammad and Islam, but he also gets a lot of converts to Christianity. And these conversions must remain secret because the penalty under Islam for apostasy is death.

Jun 11, 2009 - 12:44 pm 119. Ms. Attitude:

I see that there are some who fear Jihad so much that they shut up and side with them. Yes, fnord, I’m talking to you. Why would you think that pointing out the evil of Islam would cause harm from the 8% in your country or your soldiers in the ME? It’s fear and you know it. You’d rather shut your mouth and appease them because you are scared!

Jun 11, 2009 - 1:41 pm 120. Meryl:

Thank you, Fred, for that follow up discussion. It was helpful to me.

When the straw man technique and others that you cite are in play, it’s not very productive to take things at face value, is it?

One of the dynamics I’ve been observing in many different contexts recently is that the left (in all its forms of appeasement and distortion) often frames an argument in such a dishonest way that huge amounts of energy, repetition and clarification are required if there is to be a discussion that is useful for anyone.

I don’t care specifically about persuading the diehard lefties and antiAmericans.

But I do care about the many hundreds of thousands of Americans who are just starting to tune in to the devastation that is going on.

So “the whole conversation” has to be played out for their sake because many of them are serious about understanding and becoming an effective part of the pushback. I’m so grateful for Pajamas Media and similar sites.

The whole tiqiyya is so significant, and I believe it’s difficult for westerners, in general, to comprehend what a powerful factor that is. I wasn’t aware of the work of Fr. Botros, but some time back hubby and I became acquainted with a man who was raised Muslim, and then converted to Christianity.

He also teaches like Botros now, but traveling specifically in Christian circles desperately trying to awaken westerners to the dangers of their trained-in assumptions about tolerance and “all religion is good”. Like Fr. Botros, there is not a hateful bone in the man’s body, nor a hateful statement out of his mouth. He deals in documented historical and theological facts re Islam. (And lives in hiding with his family in the US because his name is on a kill-list published out of Pakistan, where he grew up, and allowed very little advance announcement of his lectures in our area because of the danger)

Thanks again, Fred.

Jun 11, 2009 - 2:30 pm 121. aisha:

fred:

I didn’t realize this was a No Muslim Zone. My appoligies to you and your hate filled kind.
Yes, I am a proud Muslim with friends from all walks of life, different religions, races, and background. I don’t lable people as you’ve labled me. To you I am a monster, a terrorist workshipping satan….To thoes who know me and the true religion of Islam, I am a friend, a mother, a wife, a citizen of this great nation who loves her country, her people and pray for peace for all people of the world, Muslims, Jews, Christians, .. Why such hate??
FYI, Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth. You may one day find yourself having a Muslim neighbor, and you know what, you may even get to like to them.

Jun 11, 2009 - 3:07 pm 122. Meryl:

“I didn’t realize this was a No Muslim Zone” 121.aisha….

Silly, there you go again! Fred said no such thing. I believe he made a factual observation.

Once again you have demonstrated that Islam does not tolerate factual statements, even with regard to the most casual circumstances.

You probably didn’t get the nuance of his observation: Let me try to explain: You see, Aisha, Pajamas Media commenter threads are not generally magnates for Muslims. So, Fred, in all of his stealthiness, just noticed that suddenly there are Muslims posting who are very upset at factual statements being made.

And Fred, using common sense, basically just said, “Hey, I notice there are Muslims posting who are very upset at factual statements being made.”

And you call this “hatefilled”—and yet YOU don’t “label people”? Huh???

I hate to ask, but is your hysterical response to a factual observation typical of any of those Muslim neighbors we might get? I guess we will just have to learn not to ask questions or make observations. (I don’t plan to learn either of those things. In fact, I’m stepping up my practice of both. Sorry about that.)

Fred said, “We are told that criticism of Islam = hatred.” You’ve proved his point. Again.

Jun 11, 2009 - 3:47 pm 123. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear 121. “Aisha”,

This is a free and open forum, it is not a “No Muslim Zone” as you characterize it. In fact quite the opposite. I have been begging Muslims to engage and answer the questions I have about Isalm. Maybe I’m wrong, but the weight of evidence tells me I’m right. So please, yes, Muslims engage!

No one is calling you “a monster. a terrorist”, but from everything I have head about Muhammed, he was. So please, help me understand how I am misunderstanding. Answer my questions:

1) Is it true that Muhammed is considered “al-insan al-kamil”, the “perfect man”, whom the Koran fetes as “an excellent model of conduct”?

2) Muhammed DID murder, decapitate, amputate, mutilate, enslave, commit child rape, take sex slaves, steal & loot, commit genocide, and declared himself to be a terrorist. It’s there, in black & white in the Islamic holy books. So I must ask: are these acts good and should be emulated, or are they evil and should be rejected?

3) If you think these are evil acts, as I do and as most civilized people do, isn’t the man who committed them, Muhammed, also evil?

4) Charles Manson committed similar acts, and I can’t think of a single person who thinks Manson is not evil. Is Manson evil?

Aisha, the othe Muslim commentators here were too cowardly to answer these questions, to defend their “prophet”. What about you? Will you defend the acts of Muhammed as the acts of a “perfect man”? As a “proud Muslim”, do these actions of your “prophet” make you proud?

With sincere interest, I await your reply.

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 11, 2009 - 4:16 pm 124. The Infidel Alliance:

“Aisha”,

As the namesake of Muhammeds favorite wife,

1) do you feel it is acceptable for adult men, 50+ year old men, to marry little 6 year old first grade girls?

2) do you think it is acceptable for adult men, 50+ year old men, to massage their p***** between the thighs of little prepubescent girls for their own sexual satisfaction? (sorry to get so graphic)

3) do you think it is acceptable for adult men, 50+ year old men, to have sex with little 9 year old girls?

According to my understanding of Islamic history & law, these things are OK because these were things Muhammed, the perfect man, did.

Are these things acceptable? Are these “excellent models of conduct”?

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 11, 2009 - 4:24 pm 125. fred:

“aisha”

Read my earlier posts. I’ve lived with a Muslim and associated with many he was friends with. Once again, folks, the straw man strategy comes out, because I’m supposedly “hate filled.”

Instead of focusing in on the facts, you go into a vitriol filled rant where you lob vacuous epithets at one who never did the same to you.

It must really bother Muslims that there are kafirs who know the Qur’an and ahadith better than they do. Go check out the facts of Muhammad’s life and see who really is a master of hate. It’s not me, lady.

Jun 11, 2009 - 4:31 pm 126. Torqued Marine (USMC):

This may be a little off topic, but I must point out. Muslims planed, and carried out the attacks on the towers, Pentagon, and tried to take out the White House.

The White House was saved by the passengers on that flight(true HEROES). I believe that ever one who takes up arms and attacks us is our enemy, does not matter if they are Muslim, African, gangs, Russians, etc. They need to be stopped.

The one thing I believe needs to be done by you Muslims that call your faith peaceful, is get you buts out there and denounce all of the acts of the terrorist.

I know this could be a frighting thing for you, but this will not end until you stand up for the innocent and stop the mistreatment, rape, and murder of your own sons and daughters. Make real change in how you are perceived in the world. Take some action on your own part.

I was in the Gulf in 87′/88′ and I saw how the gov. men and leaders treated the people. Please do not try to convince me that they are peaceful. They (the leaders, not the people )are the lowest for of life on earth.

Never, Never, Forget those that Died on 9/11, and those that Die today to keep you free of future attacks.

Semper Fi.

Jun 11, 2009 - 6:34 pm 127. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear “Aisha”, “Hot Lunch”, #28. “Junior Magoo”, and #39. “American Muslim”,

“Aisha” asks “Why such hate??” That is EXACTLY the question we “infidel kafirs” want to know too.

Hate such as Islam against:
- the Catholics in the Philippines
- the Buddhists in Thailand
- the Zoroastrians in Iran
- the Jews in Israel, Yemen, Mumbai and everywhere they exist
- the Hindus in India
- the Coptic Christians in Egypt
- the Chaldean Christians in Iraq
- the animists & Christians in Sudan
- the Christians in N. Nigeria
- the athiests in Europe
- gays, women and girls schools
- office workers in New York (twice)
- defense workers in the Pentagon
- cafe customers in Bali (twice)
- train commuters in Spain
- tube riders in London
- Jewish centers in South America
- Christian schoolgirls in Indonesia (beheaded)
- mutilating acid attacks on women
- journalists like Daniel Pearl (beheaded)
- Nick Berg, Paul Johnson, Kim Sun Il,Piotr Stanczak, and the countless Muslims (beheaded)
- novelists like Salman Rushdie (death fatwa)
- cinematographers like Theo Van Gogh (brutally slaughtered)
- freedom of speech at the U.N.
- the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights

and on, and on……

You say “FYI, Islam is the fastest growing religion on earth.” Why, I ask?

I think the answer is clear. Islam is like the mafia. It tempts people to join with sweet promises, but once they get in they discover its all about violence, fear and intimidation.

And, like the mafia, once you’re in, you can’t get out under the threat of death.

And when a Muslims Islamic/Mafia overlord requires them to kill in accordance with the mandates of the Koran and the examples of Muhammed, they must kill – or become apostates and be killed themselves.

Certainly at one point in recent history, NAZIism was the fastest growing cult in Europe. Like Islam and the Mafia, it too was violence, fear and intimidation based.

At some point, the worlds Muslims must decide to reject the violence, hate and intolerance of Muhammed and Islam. But to do so is to reject Muhammed and Islam itself.

What’s it going to be?????

~ The Infidel Alliance

(standing up for all non-islamic faiths, athiests & agnostics, women, gays, but especially for the good Muslims out there who are trapped by Islams deadly Catch 22)

Jun 11, 2009 - 7:25 pm 128. Torqued Marine (USMC):

127. The Infidel Alliance:

I love the way you think, and your comments. It reminds me of a dis functional family with an abusive family member, they see all the abuse but are afraid to leave because he/she mite come after them, or they believe they can make him/her change.

The thing is nothing changes if the family does not take action.

Semper Fi.

Jun 11, 2009 - 8:12 pm 129. The Infidel Alliance:

Dear “Torqued Marine (USMC)”,

Thanks. And thank you for your service supporting Americas magnificent Constitution, and the cause of liberty and individual human rights! OOH RAH!

I’m just stating the simple facts and truths that the brainwashed, politically correct, moral equivalency members of the global Idiocracy are too ignorant, stupid or fearful to admit.

This all points to a larger truth that people must face. We are not in a “War on Terror”. We
are in an ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.

An ISLAMIC WORLD WAR…as my post #127 so clearly ponts out.

ISLAMIC WORLD WAR…repeat…ISLAMIC WORLD WAR.

Global domination….the goal of the 1,400 year Islamic Reich.

While we might really, really, really, really want to believe that all ideologies are peaceful, the FACT is that most are, but one of them is absolutely NOT.

No….I’m not talking about the Buddhist Holy Warriors and their quest for global domination under the leadership of the evil Dalai Lama.

No…I’m not talking about the militant Lutheran Brigades for Reconquest of Europe.

No…I’m not talking about the Episcopal Gay Army of Yahweh.

I’m talking about Islam. Proudly terrorizing, beheading and subjugating infidels & kafirs wherever they find them (according to Koranic mandate) since the 7th century.

What we are witnessing today is without a doubt the greatest clash of civilizations in the history of humanity. Dar al-Islam versus Dar al-Harb.

Not us against Islam, but Islam against us.

Pray we win with only the force & power of thruth, reason and love!

~ The Infidel Alliance

Jun 11, 2009 - 9:54 pm 130. ldd:

Just a note to aisha, who falsely claims that this is a no muslim zone, take your head out of your butt and read who the first listed editors of this site are.
Gee would that be Omar and Mohammed Fadhil?

Jun 12, 2009 - 6:31 am 131. Paul -Indiana:

#127. Well said.

Jun 12, 2009 - 9:43 am 132. The Historian:

TERRORISM CANNOT BE BEATEN IN FEDERAL COURT
Obama is following the failed Clinton model for purely ideological reasons.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/06/fighting-terrorism-with-justice-system.html

Jun 12, 2009 - 12:12 pm 133. Kafirist:

My reading of the Quran shows that it was, in a large part, a propoganda tool used to encourage and fire up Muhammed’s army; hence the large number of times descriptions of paradise and hell occur. It’s also filled with passages that tell the soldiers that if they win a battle they’ll share in the booty of the victory, but if they should die in battle they’ll immediately go to paradise and experience exquisite sensual delights. So it was a no-lose situation for the soldier. If he wins, he’s rich; if he dies, he goes to paradise. It was during the Medina period when most of the battles were being fought that the violent surahs were written.

Islam, like any other religion, has its fundamentalists and moderates. The fundamentalists (Taliban, Al Queda, etc.) take the Quran to be the literal, eternal word of Allah and it promotes the overthrow of the world and making Islam the sole religion.

Many moderates believe the Quran to be the literal word of Allah, but it was intended for the Muslims of the 7th century and many parts are not relevant today. In other words they seem to agree with my reading.

Others, of course, are Muslims in name only and rarely attend the mosque.

I think this explains why there isn’t in fact the wholesale massacre of of infidels throughout the Muslim world as mentioned above.

The sad part is that the number of fundamentalists seems to be growing at an alarming rate.

Jun 12, 2009 - 3:30 pm 134. Torqued Marine (USMC):

129. The Infidel Alliance:

You are absolutely right, about what we want to believe. I am afraid however that attrition is going to be the only way to win this war( yes I do mean as many dead terrorists as possible).

Problem is I do not think Bam-Bam has the stomach for it, after all he is proving to be one of Muslim radicals best friends. That truly scares me for all my brothers and sisters in uniform around the world.

Thanks for your reply. I am relatively new to the blog stuff, I hope my comments are understandable and coherent.

Semper Fi.

Jun 12, 2009 - 5:58 pm 135. Political Predator:

Obama and his unholy partners the media are asking us to believe this is a religion of peace. To do so we must conclude our eyes have been lying to us for a very long time.

Jun 16, 2009 - 9:11 am 136. FMC:

I haven’t read this book yet but I have read the last one on the same subject, “While Europe Slept.” It was, to say the least, an eye-opener, a rational, fair-minded and well-researched apprasial of the disturbing Western appeasement of a religious order that allows no compromise. Perhaps people would better undrestand this religious threat by looking at it in a Christian context by imagining a modern liberal society not only making room for The Spanish Inquisition, but giving it good press by venomously denouncing its critics who dare report on it’s use of torture and burnings at the stake.

Jun 17, 2009 - 7:19 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: