Pajamas Media

59 Comments

1. Benson:

Remember the ERA? This is another case of “vote until you get it right,” this time with fangs.

Dec 9, 2008 - 3:09 am 2. Peg C.:

I don’t have a dog in this fight (I’m not gay, I’m not “religious” per se). Yet the heinous acts of the gay activists have put me firmly on the side of the pro-Prop. 8 crowd. Gay activists are doing exactly the opposite of what they need to do to persuade opponents. Thug tactics only backfire.

Dec 9, 2008 - 3:44 am 3. G-Ma:

And they call us “homophoblic?”

Dec 9, 2008 - 4:08 am 4. syn:

The thing is, the Democrat Party cannot get enough Democrat voters to support Gay Marriage but Democrat Party needs the vast wealth of Gay money. To hide this disception the Democrat Party blames Republicans.

SO if Gay Activists were sincere about Gay Marriage they should take out the anger on the Democrat Party for jerking Gay around the bend telling Gay how Democrats support Gay Marriage when they don’t support Gay Marriage.

The fact is, despite of the obnoxious noise coming from Gay Activisits, the incoming president Barak Obama is against Gay Marriage just as Big Blue-state Liberal California is against Gay Marriage.

Quit blaming Republicans for Democrat fraud!

Dec 9, 2008 - 4:31 am 5. Chino Blanco:

WTF is “homophoblic” ?

Re 4: you’re delusional. Except for Evangelical/Republican voters, Prop 8 would’ve gone down in flames. What are you talking about?

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:14 am 6. mk:

See, most of us couldn’t give a tiny rat’s patootie about Prop 8, and all that jazz.

But this childish temper tantrum and crusade against those who disagree with them is ridic. It’s actually rather disgusting, in my view.

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:23 am 7. syn:

“you’re delusional. Except for Evangelical/Republican voters”

My goodness, Democrat candidate Barak Obama won in California with the votes from Evangelical/Republicans? I did not know this. You mean to say that all those Others who voted FOR Prop 8 are all ‘Evangelical/Republican’ in a very BIG BLUE state?

Further, if Evangelical/Republican voters kept Prop 8 from ‘going down in flames’ why then are Gay activists specifically targeting
Mormons? Why not the black churches, or the Catholic churches or the Muslim mosques or all Other variety of various Relgious institutions?

Perhaps the delusion is thinking the Democrat Party supports Gay Marriage when in fact they consistantly vote AGAINST Gay Marriage.

Gay Marriage is in no way a Republican problem; it is a Democrat problem created by Democrats who want Gay money without quid pro quo.

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:35 am 8. Anonymous:

So will the gay activists in Los Angeles be protesting outside the black churches in South Central anytime soon? Will PETA be driving down to Tijuana to protest outside the downtown bullring about the cruelty of bullfighting? Will feminists be marching in Saudi Arabia or Iran to call attention to the appalling record toward women of both those nations? Some questions answer themselves in the asking.

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:50 am 9. Gilligan:

Chino Blanco

There was a lot more black voter turn out in this election because Barak Obama was on the ballot. Black voters went 70% for Prop 8. That is why it won.

The thing is that Mormons, Evangelicals and Republicans are unlikely to do violence to you if you get right up in their face to scream your rage and frustration at them. Besides, you know that Democrats cannot win elections unless the black voter turnout is high and 90% for Democrats.

What a dilemma you face. No wonder you go for the easy targets.

Dec 9, 2008 - 6:06 am 10. Frank:

Vandalism and violent tantrums may change some peoples minds, they may make some people who were leaning toward supporting gay marriage to oppose it.

Dec 9, 2008 - 6:18 am 11. bill:

My question is, why aren’t the gay “activists” targeting Black churches? Since Black women (hardly a Republican or Mormon constituency) voted 75% FOR prop 8, you would think the gay ire would be directed at them. But, of course, we all know why it isn’t. Not only are Black women faithful Democratic voters on most issues, but they wouldn’t take this abuse lying down and the homosexuals know it. Another point: The Episcopal bishops of California urged their faithful to vote AGAINST prop 8. Why is no one talking about taking away their tax-exempt status? Once again…

Dec 9, 2008 - 6:45 am 12. Tex Taylor:

Gay activists are cowards. They pick the easiest targets, knowing fully well that if they were to protest outside of a black church or a mosque, chances are very good they will be met with something a little harsher than a Yes vote.

And to some of these Mormon folks who are holding your tempers in check when these loons are screaming in your face? Good on you and I greatly admire your patience. But a few more threats outside your church doors by these cowards, and you certainly have my vote to implement operation ass kickin’. I would.

Dec 9, 2008 - 7:05 am 13. G-Ma:

#5 Chino Blanco, my apology for misspelling “homophobic”. It must have really thrown you in a spin trying to understand what I meant. I didn’t mean to make you use a cuss word.

Dec 9, 2008 - 7:15 am 14. R a Z o R:

The theology of celestial marriage vs the

defining of marriage between one man and one

woman as is the law of the land for the most

aggressive progessive liberals , this they would

not understand or allow . As a Methodist that

longs for the united order and a spirtual world,

I’ve found that lemons that ripen on the tree

are much sweeter than the ones that are shipped

green . Now living in North Carolina I miss the

sweet scent .

Dec 9, 2008 - 7:22 am 15. misanthropicus:

Memo to Anti-Prop 8 Activists: Leave the Mormons Alone!Vandalism and violent tantrums won’t change anyone’s mind about gay marriage.

Since I live in Los Angeles (and enthusiastically voted FOR prop 8), I watched with much satisfaction the self-destructive frenzy of the gay activist and the formidable, deafening, acquiescing silence of their liberal supporters, particularly in the Ekhart and Hollywood blacklisting matter – aren’t they who at any time remind anyone how they defended the country and civilisation from McCarthy’s destructive wrath?
Also, I found in their behavior a confirmation of the fact that the American liberals/left have nicely drifted into fascist street thuggery – Kristllnacht in Los Angeles.

And if the Calif. Supreme Court will dare to challenge the vote on 8, then we’ll recall those guys.

And a piece of advice for the gay activists: we indeed live times of anxieties and trials, it’s a fact – and it’s an equally solid fact that during this type of economical and psychological environment, the electorate just doesn’t put up with wanton & selfish political posturing.
Be content with what you’ve got so far – very much, actually, since the enormous tab for AIDS (a disease behaviorally caused, and this mainly within a group of less than 1% of the population), is being paid by the larger society. Which simply won’t go for gay marriage, for warranted reasons.

Dec 9, 2008 - 7:53 am 16. misanthropicus:

By the way! Just seen on CNN that governor Ron Blagojevich was busted in Chicago for corruption and other malfeasance – and I quickly ran a check on the news agencies: gues what? Nobody knows that Blagojevich is a Democrat!
Had this happened with a Republican, that would have been the chief feature of the news: “Republican Governor….; the Republican party… etc.”

Dec 9, 2008 - 7:57 am 17. Chip:

I voted against Prop Two here in Florida, but the response to Prop Eight in CA has me thinking I won’t support gay fascist creeps and their army of judicial authoritarians any more.

I’m for democracy in the US, not judicial dictatorship.

Dec 9, 2008 - 9:09 am 18. Richard:

The reasons the mormons are being targetted is that they stopped being a church and became a PAC with a large volunteer workforce. It has nothing to do with who voted for what and everything to do with the way a CHURCH abused its non-tax status and immersed itself in POLITICS without declaring itself as a PAC. It would be one thing if the church just counseled its members on its position vis-a-vis gay marriage. However, that is not what they did. They engaged in political lobbying lock, stock and barrel. They pumped a large volunteer force into making sure prop 8 passed, along with millions of dollars. None of that excuses poor behavior of people who were against prop 8, but the mormon church overstepped the boundaries of what is acceptable behavior for a church. They don’t get a pass just because they are a church. In fact, they should be held to an even higher standard than any other organization. They screwed up.

Dec 9, 2008 - 9:10 am 19. Marauder:

I support gay marriage and if I lived in California I would have voted against Proposition 8, though I think the way California got gay marriage in the first place – through the courts – was a bad idea that was obviously going to lead to a huge backlash. However, these violent and just plain mean-spirited activists are embarrassing me. They’re giving great fuel to people who believe that gay activists hate religion and want to impose on people’s rights to believe what they want.

This “separate the church and state” thing ignores the fact that people are allowed to vote for or against anything for any reason they want. It’s not illegal to vote against gay marriage because your religion doesn’t support it. The civil rights movement worked because white Americans saw that black people were sensible, peaceful people who just wanted to have what the white people had. The movement for gay marriage is only going to work if straight Americans see that gay people are sensible, peaceful people who just want to have what straight people have, and right now gay activists are making themselves look like a bunch of rude, violent jerks who respond to democratic decisions with attempts at mob rule and are mean to little old ladies. Way to make your own PR nightmare, guys.

Dec 9, 2008 - 9:16 am 20. joan:

Richard, the Mormons had no larger a volunteer force than the Episcopal Church, which has become a marketing branch for gay causes. Since I worship in a small neighborhood parish in Silicon Valley, I hear the commercials regularly. It’s kind of like belonging to a union – you have no idea where your dues go.

Dec 9, 2008 - 9:21 am 21. Joseph:

Richard, the Mormom church did nothing more than counsel its members concerning the relevant points of church doctrine and urge them to take a stand for what they personally believe to be correct. The church itself donated about $4,000 to the cause – a drop in the bucket. No church phones or facilities were used to campaign. No political material was even allowed to be posted on church property. This information was all reported to me by my sister and brother-in-law, both faithful Mormons living in LA, who were active in the campaign to promote Prop 8.

The Anti-Prop 8 campaign wants you to believe that the Mormon church used all of its available power and influence to assure the passage of Prop 8. This simply is not true. It’s not how the Mormon church operates and it hasn’t been for at least the 28 years that I have been a member.

Dec 9, 2008 - 9:55 am 22. Thinking Person:

It all boils down to the gay community needing someone to rail against and they chose the religious route. Of course they wouldn’t look the black community eye and blame them would they? I’m a pretty open minded person and though being a Republican, I most likely would have voted against Prop 8. But now, if it came up on the ballot in my state I would vote against the militant gays ever getting any rights accorded hetero couples. I’ve totally gotten a sour taste in my mouth from their use of violence and a blatant disrespect for the voters in CA.

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:08 am 23. Dave:

Proposition 8 was a change to the California Constitution. I’m curious how the California Supreme Court can challenge the state’s Constitution? Aren’t they responsible for upholding it?

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:21 am 24. RV:

Wow, what a great nation where the ations of an incredibly small percentage of a certain group causes people to adopt that view for the whole group. There are far, far more peaceful gay rigths activists than there are violent ones, but I guess that doesn’t stop some people from making rash judgements about an entire group.

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:22 am 25. rocketeer:

I’d be happy to have the “No-On-Prop 8″ idiots show up at my church. We’re not all a bunch of pacifists. They have gone from wanting acceptance to wanting parity to wanting superiority by denying us the right of our vote and the rights to free speech.

They do need to know that you can’t be the aggressor and the victim at the same time. They are going to have to decide on which they want to be. I, for one, will no longer afford them the honor of any “victim” status, because they are nothing more then thugs now.

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:28 am 26. Boyfriend of Steel:

What it comes down to is that there’s no possible way to reconcile religious expression with civil rights as we’ve come to define it (meaning nearly unrestricted sexual expression, which goes against almost every mainstream religion). Homosexual activists want Gay Marriage so that they can use the legitimization it provides to make substantial political and legal attacks on faith institutions and their paritioners. Simply put, they want live in a world where no one can stand up and say “NO” to them, even in private.

The recent Canadian experience, where ministers and churches have been charged and convicted of “crimes” for following their beliefs and opposing the practice of homosexuality shows what lies in store should gay marriage become law of the land.

I suspect we are seeing the opening shots of a new escalation of the culture wars. Unfortunately, the extreme naivete of Social Conservatives guarantees that they will continue to be the victims of the political process, and ultimately unsuccessful in defending themselves.

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:39 am 27. Thinking Person:

RV….Sort of like Republicans being labeled racists right?

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:39 am 28. Fantom:

Richard… ” Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;…..”

The only thing out of bounds is the IRS or Congress thinking that they can tell Church’s what activities they can engage in. Church’s have every right anyone does to organize and engage in the political process. Congress stopping them from doing so by threat of taxation is the only unacceptable behavior as it is clearly unConstitutional.

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:47 am 29. momof3:

“except for evangelical/republican voters…”

Uh, no. Minorities vastly voted for this proposition. And they vastly vote democratic. But, as someone pointed out on a different gay-marriage-protest thread, you don’t see the activists throwing tantrums down in Watts or Compton, do you? No, only in nice safe white areas and churches. Talk about hypocritical bigots.

Churches have the right to open and fund hospitals, feed the poor, house the poor, etc etc, but NOT the right to oppose things? Shut up and do the scut-work, eh? Who do you think will do the scut-work if churches start being taxed? The government that does such a fabulous job at everything it turns its hand to?

I’ve pretty much been a “what you do in your house is your business” kind of girl, but I oppose them getting the term Marriage. And now, I think I oppose a lot more. They obviously only want to rule us, not be “equal” with us.

Dec 9, 2008 - 12:38 pm 30. aloysiusmiller:

No protests in front of mosques either.

Dec 9, 2008 - 12:56 pm 31. RV:

Thinking person – I would not label all republicans as racist. As I indicated in my post, the actions of a small percentage of any group do not define the group as a whole.

Dec 9, 2008 - 1:28 pm 32. Thinking Person:

RV…Here’s your comment….

“Wow, what a great nation where the ations of an incredibly small percentage of a certain group causes people to adopt that view for the whole group. There are far, far more peaceful gay rigths activists than there are violent ones, but I guess that doesn’t stop some people from making rash judgements about an entire group.”

I’m sorry. I must have misread your sarcastic remark as being a jab at all here who felt the gay activists acting violently. Don’t know where I could have gotten that idea.

Dec 9, 2008 - 1:55 pm 33. Brigham:

–TELEGRAM–
PORTER ROCKWELL
153 S TEMPLE, SALT LAKE CITY
PORTER, WE GOT SOME PESTS OUTSIDE THE GATES AGAIN
HOW’S ABOUT YOU AND YOUR DANITE BRETHEREN VISIT A LITTLE SODOM AND GOMORRAH UPON THEIR SORRY BACKSIDES
REGARDS
BROTHER BRIGHAM

Dec 9, 2008 - 3:19 pm 34. zanne:

Here was my recent exchange with someone regarding prop 8. She:”The Morman church bought the prop 8 win. It is so WRONG!” Me: “Kinda how I feel about ACORN”. She replies: “Wrong,ACORN funding happened to help the people”. HUH?

Dec 9, 2008 - 4:27 pm 35. veracious:

The author is implying that threats and intimidation don’t work. If that was true I doubt we’d be seeing most of the world using terrorism as a tool of influence.

Only a nation or people with courage and heart, will be able to resist terrorism longer than it takes for terrorist to give it up.

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:18 pm 36. Insufficiently Sensitive:

One of the features of a stable democracy is that its citizens hold elections to decide questions, and then abide by the majority vote.

It’s pretty obvious that the No-on-8 folks would prefer some form of anti-democratic government, with themselves issuing the edicts for the rest of us to obey.

Let them be reminded that democracy is indeed the very worst form of human government – except for all the other forms of it. Let them also imagine, after the successful revolution against the short-lived gay autocracy, what their fate would be if certain minorities who voted FOR Proposition 8 used their advantage of numbers to impose a new autocracy which would, in turn, issue decrees for the new No-on-8 underclass to obey.

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:24 pm 37. Fantom:

#35, most of the world is not using “terrorism”. Just moslems.

Dec 9, 2008 - 6:28 pm 38. Fantom:

^^^^^^ Oh, and liberals/left.

Dec 9, 2008 - 6:29 pm 39. misanthropicus:

By the way, driving often through West Hollywood I could see a few times the old “Death to Breeders” poster on walls – infanilism? imbecility? combination of both?

Dec 10, 2008 - 5:11 am 40. Richard:

The IRS doesn’t tell Churches what they can or cannot do. It tells them what is acceptable if they wish to receive a tax break as a specially designated religious organization. They can do all the politicking they want to, for all I care, just pay the entrance fee like everyone else.

Oh, and $4,000 my ass. Its more like $20 million. You can play all the accounting shell games you want to pretend it didn’t come from the mormon church, but it came from the church, no doubt about it.

Mormons can be quite annoying, but I don’t care if they want to preach hatred about gays or not. They shouldn’t be surprised at the reaction though, and in this particular case they acted more like a “stealth PAC” than a church. They’re reaping what they’ve sown. Hatred and bigotry beget more hatred and bigotry.

Dec 10, 2008 - 11:38 am 41. aclay:

You say protestor tactics won’t change anyone’s mind. It has mine. I am in favor of gay marriage, but will vote against it as a protest of this display of anti-liberal behavior. The witch hunts, vandalism, and close mindedness of these idiots deserves to be punished. The only way I can punish them is deny them my vote.

Dec 10, 2008 - 1:07 pm 42. Assistant Village Idiot:

Richard, churches cannot endorse candidates under their tax-exempt status but they can engage in issue politics.

If LDS members contributed heavily to Prop 8 without going through their church specifically, that is their right, and there is nothing illegal or unethical about it. You seem to have a weak understanding of some basic 1st Amendment rights. You know many things which just aren’t so.

You are also very quick to accuse others of hatred and bigotry based on their disagreeing with you on matters of law.

Dec 10, 2008 - 1:31 pm 43. Mike:

Disgusting behavior from some in the gay community. It must take a real hero to beat up an old lady and stomp on her cross and beat up a young girl with her Bible. Since it was blacks and hispanics that turned the vote in favor of Prop 8 why don’t they go beat up people in South Central or Compton or East LA? Do I need to wait for the answer?? What cowards!
———————————————-
By the way, I hope all you rich liberals out there are going to pay a bunch of taxes because Joe Biden said it’s your patriotic duty to do so and I am waiting for my share of the free stuff Obama promised me.

Dec 10, 2008 - 4:07 pm 44. Mary Stella:

I used to have a very soft spot for gays for years, now they have become so mean and unreasonably vicious toward Christians and Jews, as they routinely engaging in unjustified hateful acts. The Gay activists are constantly throwing childish tantrums.

Dec 10, 2008 - 4:38 pm 45. Smokey:

Chino Blanco:

“Except for Evangelical/Republican voters, Prop 8 would’ve gone down in flames.”

You could not be more wrong.

Prop 8 lost because African-American voters opposed it, 75/25. THAT is why it lost.

Your ‘Mormon’ argument is a straw man. Quit prevaricating.

Dec 10, 2008 - 8:15 pm 46. Mark:

So the Mormons have to be protected from a few gay protesters? If the Mormons can’t take the heat they should stay in temple and out of electoral politics. Once they entered the Proposition 8 campaign they became a target. They can’t expect to hurl bombs against gays and then wrap themselves in religion and pout when those terrible gays scratch back.

One thing is clear, gays will come out victorious on this issue, as they have in every other. I know this by looking back at every single battle the gay rights movement has fought since it’s inception in 1969 after the Stonewall Riots:

1. Removing homosexuality from the list of mental diseases. CHECK
2. Invalidation by the Supreme Court of sodomy laws in all 50 states. CHECK
3. Recognition, including domestic partner benefits by the largest companies in the country. CHECK
4. Election of openly gay politicians, including the powerful Barney Frank in the Congress. CHECK
5. Visibility in the media with such hit shows as Will & Grace on prime time. CHECK
6. Gay marriage in Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Jersey … CHECK
7. Election of a gay bishop in the Episcopal church. CHECK.

I could go on with a 50 point list, but you get the idea. The gay community achieved all this not by staying quiet but by engaging in the only tactic that bigots and bullies understand–confrontation. Gay marriage will happen in all 50 states even though the Mormons, the Baptists, the Catholics and others don’t like it. History tells us so.

Dec 10, 2008 - 11:05 pm 47. Confused in Virginia:

I have a question that I hope someone will be able to answer. Gays want (demand) tolerance from the non-gay community, and if they don’t get it, they label people as homophobic. Why then can they not show tolerance for people who honestly believe that homosexuality is a sin according to their religion? Would it be fair then to label gays religionphobics?

Dec 11, 2008 - 12:51 am 48. Assistant Village Idiot:

Mark- “hurl bombs” is thoroughtly irresponsible rhetoric. No one has hurled bombs at Prop 8 opponents, and to use that sort of language is an attempt to demonise and invite violence.

Your “history” shows that you have divided your world into the forces of evil, bullying, oppression versus the poor innocent victims who only use violence because they are forced to it. Sadly, that is the rhetoric of oppressors throughout history.

Dec 11, 2008 - 6:12 am 49. Mark:

Here’s your answer Confused in Virginia: Gays are very tolerant of religion and there are many gays who actively participate in churches, including priests and bishops as in the case of the Episcopal church. Gays could care less what the Mormons believe but when Mormons try to impose their believe by legislation on the whole of society then we have a problem. So yes Mormons are free to believe homosexuality is a sin but they are not free to impose their dogma on everybody else. When they seek to subvert the Constitution, which guarantees equal protection under the law, then we have a problem; they have entered the political process and will be brought to heel by the gay community through societal, legal and political pressure until they take their prejudices back into the temple and away from the public square were we are all guaranteed equal protection under the law.

If we all followed religious dogma in government you wouldn’t be able to buy a condom at the drugstore or go to the courthouse to petition for divorce since the Catholic church believes divorce and contraception are a mortal sin (they even oppose condoms to protect from STDs in Africa were there’s an AIDS epidemic). Can you imagine the U.S. without condoms or divorce? Care to guess how much the unwanted pregnancy rate would go up, how much the STD rate would go up if contraception where made illegal because the Church thinks it’s a sin? Care to guess how much the domestic violence and murder rate would go up if men and women were not allowed to divorce?

So yes, Confused in Virginia, they have a right to believe, but not a right to impose their believes on the rest of society, and that includes their believe that gay marriage is a sin.

Dec 11, 2008 - 8:58 am 50. Mark:

Dear Assistant Village Idiot:

Are you sure you are not ready for a promotion? “Hurl bombs” in my post is used figuratively.

Dec 11, 2008 - 9:11 am 51. MichaelC:

Mark,

When the activists go down into the black community and protest against them, whose numbers served to carry the vote for Proposition 8, protest against them in the manner that you are protesting the Mormons, then America will see that you at least have the courage of your convictions.

But all of you know what would happen to you if you did that, and so does the rest of the country who are watching this morality play out in California and observing the hypocrisy of those who demand their “rights” by participating in the democratic process but embrace terroristic tactics and blacklisting when the country won’t give in to their demands.

And Mark, I noticed your list did not observe that in every state where the vote of the people was respected, gay marriage as an issue has been thoroughly rejected by the people.

You can go back to your sideshow which is being broadcast to the nation and continue hemorrhaging former supporters, or you can perhaps gain a modicum of sense and realize that in a democratic society not all votes will go your way. Most of my dreams were crushed in the recent general election and I believe that there are millions just like me, but you don’t see us out having hissy fits in the streets because we did not get our way.

For us it will be a time of introspection, getting back to the basics, pulling ourselves together and understanding our need to present our vision through more appropriate representatives who are able to articulate the views that have long appealed to this center right nation, and through the democratic process continue to work for an America that we believe in.

Take a hint here. If you’re going to embrace the democratic process stop freaking out when the populace doesn’t bow to your every whim.

Dec 11, 2008 - 4:23 pm 52. Dlanor:

Everyone has a right peaceably to assemble to express grievances.

Civilized society has a right to referee whether grievances are legitimate and, if so, how to address them.

Society, thus far, has decided Gays are protected in their private lives, but are no more free to engage in acts of public indecency than anyone else.

Society, thus far, has decided there are legitimate reasons for government, through taxes and law, to incentive traditional families as the primary basis for transmitting assimilating values to each succeeding generation.

Gays have no more right than any other group to expect society to change its view until it is convinced to the contrary.

Rational society is unlikely to be convinced merely because any particular group acts up.

A group that is serious about trying to change social views needs to get serious about (1) giving thought to whether their program really is good for civilization; (2) if their program is good, how to explain as much; and (3) addressing the concerns of opponents.

Thus far, Gays have done a poor and unconvincing job of addressing concerns of the opponents of their agenda.

Merely to make noise about pretended “rights” is not to address the concerns of opponents, nor will mere noise-making convince any rational person worth convincing. Rather, irrational noise-making tends to convince rational opponents that the noisemakers have no worthwhile counterarguments, i.e., that the noisemaking is mainly a reversion to infantilism — which convinces no responsible adult.

True, our founders resorted to “noise-making.” However, our founders (1) were not represented in the existing government, and (2) were willing entirely to undermine and replace the old government. Militant Gays, however, are represented in our existing government, yet still seem intent on undermining America. Thus, one who seeks to preserve a civilizing America has every reason to resist the Militant Gay Agenda.

Dec 11, 2008 - 6:57 pm 53. Mark:

MichaelC,
The gay community has also spoken out against bigots in the black community including anti-gay rap music. The reason the Mormons are being targeted in this instance more than black churches is that money is the mother’s milk of politics and it is the wealthy Mormon church that provided the money and a great deal of resources in the Prop 8 campaign. Mormonism, which is a religion invented in America in the 1800s, was once marginalized by the greater society, just like gays have been marginalized. In fact, many other Christians still believe that the Book of Mormon was a fabrication of Joseph Smith. Just like Mormons fought for their rights in the past century, gays are now fighting for their rights. The gay community as I indicated has won many rights over the past decades and now they are fighting for the right to marry.

This is not over by any means, it took many battles, in state and federal courts to overturn sodomy laws, but they were overturned. Great progress has been made in the fight for gay marriage. Can you imagine this even been an issue 10, 20, 30 years ago? Yet now some states have gay marriage and more will follow. Gay marriage failed by a few percentage points in California, which can easily be made up next time around.

It took a hundred years from the end of slavery in the US until blacks could drink from the same fountain and attend the same schools as whites. It has only taken 40 years from the time gays were bashed over the head by cops for entering a gay bar to gays serving in the halls of power in this country. If gays had not thrown a hissy fit 40 years ago in New York City during the Stonewall Riots they would not have gained so many of the rights they enjoy today. We are light years away from the days when men could be thrown in jail for entering a gay bar.

As to your dreams being crushed it the last election it was just your preferred candidate who lost, you didn’t lose any rights. In two years, in the midterm elections, you can try again. Perhaps if your right to marry was taken away, you would be having a hissy fit. Ultimately arguing against bigots like you is a losing proposition because prejudice is not a rational thought and therefore reason cannot defeat it. But with money, organization, visibility, and not backing down when attacked gays have made great progress and they will make more in the future. Anti-gay bigots are like a school yard bully, they will have their way until you fight back, then they back down and see the error of their ways.

Dec 11, 2008 - 7:21 pm 54. MichaelC:

Mark,

Your problem, and the problem of all those like you, is that you consider those of us with a different view of how society ought to be structured to be bigots. Not fellow citizens with viewpoints of their own and the freedom to vote representatives and urge laws that reflect their own considered take on the direction of society. Rather an easy out for you to dismiss everyone whose opinion does not match yours as evil, or bigoted so that you can feel yourself to be the righteous victim of your inferiors.

You have chosen to characterize my viewpoints as bigoted and therefore have done nothing to gain an ally. But that’s not what you’re here for is it?

Like all gays stampeding through the streets attempting to intimidate and frighten people, you think to coerce your opponents. There was a time not so long ago that I had no resistance at all to gay political and social aspirations. I have learned a lot since then. Apparently you have no clue as to the numbers of former supportive people that now look on you and yours askance. You are unlikely to meet us again if this is your chosen way to create the future you desire.

I have nothing to add to this other than to say that when people choose to go to war in preference to negotiation, debate, and reasoning they should take great care not to underestimate the enemy they are creating in the process.

Dec 12, 2008 - 12:11 am 55. susan:

the comparison between black and gays is laughable.

arrest people parading naked in the various gay parades around the world and treat them like a heterosexual is treated: indecent exposure

there you will have equality

Dec 12, 2008 - 4:45 am 56. Paul - Indiana:

If Prop 8 had failed, the gays would be touting ‘the will of the people’. They can’t have it both ways. If they want an enduring commitment they should adopt each other.

Dec 12, 2008 - 5:22 am 57. Mark Epstein:

The behavior of those supporting gay rights is anathema to reason. The thuggish attitude underlying the gay agenda is becoming more and more obvious with each passing day. Now, their heterosexual supporters are calling for the death of those who oppose gay marriage based on their religious convictions, and I am included in that category. Once again I have had to respond to a heterosexual that mimics the logically flawed gay marriage mantra of the homosexual community.

Gay Rage Part II: “Die, Christian

Dec 12, 2008 - 5:42 am 58. The Historian:

IS LIBERAL CALIFORNIA THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG?
The country might be able to preview it’s future in the current mess on the left coast:

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2008/12/california-liberals-utopia.html

Dec 12, 2008 - 12:46 pm 59. BERLET98:

Forrest Gump Attacks Mormons on Prop 8

I confess that I don’t know an awful lot about Mormons aside from the fact most of them live in Utah and, except for small bands of renegades, they gave up believing in polygamy over a century ago.

I’m not even certain they were ever true polygamists since by definition that word refers to the practice of having more than one spouse and, as far as I know, Mormon women weren’t permitted multiple husbands although the men folk could have as many wives as they could handle without the question of bigamy or trigamy entering the picture.

Personally, I think one wife is more than sufficient but that’s not the issue. I do agree with a Dutch proverb which holds, To marry once is a duty, twice a folly, thrice is madness.

Point is, if Mormonism didn’t permit women to wed and bed more than one hubby, were Mormons ever true polygamists? I feel there should be a better term since polyandry, if not strictly forbidden, was certainly not encouraged.

All that aside, the vast preponderance of Mormons today are married to one spouse. They seem to be a very industrious group as well as clean people, much like President-elect Obama was considered a clean African American by Vice President-elect Joe Biden. They also seem to be very religious people, I’d have to say an offshoot of Christianity but still Christians.

On and prior to November 4th, 2008, they demonstrated that religious fervor by generously funding the drive to pass California’s Proposition 8. That initiative was innocuous enough, a re-affirmation of the obvious, namely that a marriage consists of one male and one female, and not any other combination thereof. In any event, Proposition 8 passed in very left wing California and by a substantial majority which re-affirmed my fervent hope that Americans, and Californians, hadn’t gone totally off the deep end of common sense and of fundamental morality.

That passage, however, infuriated the gay community which was incensed that American citizens had exercised their constitutional prerogative and had endorsed the time-honored principle that a male wedding another male or a female wedding another female, or a guy marrying his pet frog, were distortions and aberrations of the institution of marriage, notwithstanding the views of the State of Massachusetts.

Gays went on a national rampage of protests, intimidation, and violence to show they disagreed with the Californian electorate. The rampage got them nowhere except free water and cupcakes when they demonstrated outside Pastor Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church.

So, the protests petered out and homosexuals regrouped and probably began planning their next effort to overturn the majority beliefs of Americans in 2010.

At this point, Forrest Gump entered the picture…

(Read the rest of this article at http://genelalor.com/.)

Jan 19, 2009 - 3:25 pm

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