More Government Does Not Equal ‘Reform’
The only thing life has taught us is that government programs are unsustainable and threats to our freedoms.
We live in interesting times. The America of 2020 will be radically different than the America of 1920. Just as Europeans attempt to liberalize their markets, we, in the United States, endeavor to (further) socialize ours. The Increase the Size of the Federocracy Plan — a.k.a. the stimulus — imperils our ability to ever get out of debt while cap and tax seeks to punish citizens as a means to atone for environmental variation. Inadvertently, the carbon scheme will enable China to become the world’s dominant economic power and lead to an even greater loss of our nation’s manufacturing base.
The latest assault on our institutions and freedoms comes from the Democratic Party’s health care initiative. Polling data suggest that most Americans are not in favor of Congress’ vague but extensive restructuring venture (disguised as reform), as 89 percent of us are satisfied with our own medical care.
No matter, the Democrats see another area of our lives to subject to their dreams of domination and have seized the day. As with the economy and climate change, they manufactured a health care crisis to ensure that they “never let a serious crisis go to waste.”
Republicans are “nearly united” in opposing it, but, alas, the left has the votes to push some kind of counterproductive measure through — even if it’s not totally transformative — without their assistance. Indeed, even if the GOP fights like paratroopers stranded in Bastogne, the much-heralded conservatives of the Democratic Party appear to be more lapdog than blue dog.
Should the weaker elements on his side wobble, President Obama created a new website, “Organizing for Health Care,” to assist politicians in battles with their constituents. The new web portal harkens back to the feel-good days of 2008 when the campaign ran “Fight the Smears” — established to prevent the general public from discerning the vast expanse existing between who Barack Obama actually was and who he pretended to be.
The odds may be against conservatives, but all is not lost. Positive signs abound as more and more citizens are ending their passivity. They’re standing up to their rulers and presenting them with the Obama kryptonite of “no, no, we can’t.”
The left could acknowledge the very real concerns of half the nation, but they’ve chosen to go into war-room mode. It appears that Democrats ardently believe in the opposite of Occam’s razor — the most convoluted and dramatic explanation for an event is the one that is most believable.
To leftists, only a sucker accepts that actual Americans complain or speak out when they witness detestable government action, so rather than comment on reality they conjure up conspiracy theories.
The DNC wrote off the protesters as “angry mobs of a small number of rabid right-wing extremists funded by K Street lobbyists” while an upper-class toff in the Senate lamented the number of “well-dressed people” storming the “town hall meetings.” Ah, there it is. What else is a clubman to do, between regattas in August, besides make spontaneous visits to his congressman?
Less humorously, the speaker of the House accused critics of “carrying swastikas” to their rallies, but this was a bizarre and unsubstantiated slur. If any of them did carry swastikas then, in all probability, they would be Pelosi — or Rep. John Dingell — supporters, as one can’t simultaneously hate socialism and support fascism. Perhaps her time would be better spent lecturing her own side about their choices in fashion accessories.
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Bernard Chapin wrote Women: Theory and Practice and Escape from Gangsta Island, along with a series of videos called Chapin’s Inferno. You can contact him at veritaseducation@gmail.com.
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117 Comments
1. MIKE in ATL:We need SARAH PALIN to enter the fray.A voice of honesty and clarity.A real AMERICAN.Not a socialist wannabe. I cant believe AMERICA fell for BOs bulls–t.What a world we live in.
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:40 am 2. David Thomson:Progressives believed that modern day citizens no longer had to fear their government. These public sector officials were not a threat because they attended the “best” universities and were such wonderful human beings. Their advanced education and benevolence was our guarantee that these individuals would benevolently look out only for our interests. And since the rest of us are so stupid—it would be foolish to place any checks and balances on their behavior. May god save us from those who “mean well.” They are often very dangerous people.
Aug 15, 2009 - 3:44 am 3. marsouin:Big Government can never ever be honest and just government. That’s why the Founder’s shackled the national government to absolute core responsibilities, and no more. As Madison said, if power can be abused, it will be. Thus, the less discretion politicians and bureaucrats have, the better. But the Progressives were successful in their constitutional coup d’etat in the 1930’s – the Founder’s underlying liberal republican principles were rejected in favor of a social democrat value system. Effectively, rent-seeking became legal, and we have suffered for it ever since. No matter how much destruction they leave in their wake, socialists insist in the belief that authoritarian government is a better custodian of our basic natural rights to offer a Utopia denied by the liberal (small, limited government) model.
Until the US Supreme Court undoes the legal destruction it has wrought, there is no hope in restraining the socialists from using the State to purchase the loyalties of winning special-interest coalitions. Only until we reach the edge of the precipice will we have any chance to awaken the populace of the past century’s errors. But history does not bring hope that they will.
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:26 am 4. Anonymous:Bernard Chapin:
“as 89 percent of us are satisfied with our own medical care.”
What a distorted lie!
Why didn’t you print the whole unreliable information from your Fox source?
“A survey conducted jointly by the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their own personal medical care, but only 44 percent were satisfied with the overall quality of the American medical system. ”
2006, 44%.
Yes, juggle your numbers.
It’s not the people who are satisfied with their medical care, it’s the insurance, pharmaceutical companies and all the greedy profiteers. They paid you to write this, didn’t they?
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:52 am 5. herbal farm:Good Read:
Just a reminder how a government program can get old and moldy and continue to waste your monies:
Just wait until they get hold of your employers tax deductible health premiums.
I plan to get a government subsidized farm loan grow medical herbal organic marijuana and vote democrat the rest of my life.
Life is Good.
Aug 15, 2009 - 5:26 am 6. Cybergeezer:What more proof does any one need that the Democrat Party is moving to assume total control of the American way of life through it’s unilateral actions in the health care and energy legislation? And make themselves rich off of OUR MONEY in the process! At this point, they are a greater threat, and causing more damage, than terrorism.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:07 am 7. George S.:watch this clip and you will understand why they continue to make the same arguments over and over no matter what they are shown or told.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
this clip gives great insight into the lefts blind following of an ideology that will bury them at the same time it buries us.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:28 am 8. LeighB:I agree with the author, more government does not mean reform. Government is already a big enough player in health care and I’d prefer to see them work to make Medicare, Medicaid and VA Hospitals better rather than taking on more. Tort reform and “co-ops” make sense and will bring about lower costs and increase competition.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:43 am 9. bibio44:“As with the economy and climate change, they manufactured a health care crisis….”
Whew! I am sooo relieved to find out that the economic and climate change crises are fake. They had me worried.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:56 am 10. David Thomson:“…pharmaceutical companies and all the greedy profiteers.”
I don’t have a particular problem with the concept that capitalists are not inherently wonderful people. On the contrary, Adam Smith warned that capitalists are inclined to collude against the general public. But why are you so trusting of Progressive government officials and institutions? Are they supposedly saintly and benevolent?
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:58 am 11. reConUSMC:MYTHS AND FACTS ABOUT OBAMACARE
Why after reading this MYTHS AND FACTS ABOUT OBAMACARE do I suddenly want a “Picture ” off the cover of Time Magazine 12 times in the last 16 months
of someone with big Ears on the wall and throw Darts at it and stick Pins in it and Chant a Haitian Medicine Dr.s Death wish ?
This should make us ”Feel Better ” !
Go to U Tube or Drudge today .
Reagan’s COMMON SENSE speech is far more in-vogue today than in 1961 !
1961: Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine…
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:07 am 12. A Member of the Enemies List:Historically “more government” equates to totalitarian regimes that oppress the people not reform. Therefore, it’s probably a real good time to analyze whether Obama and his cohorts are constitutionally-defined domestic enemies of the United States of America.
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:19 am 13. jharp:The teabaggers lost the week and are losing the battle. Badly.
The truth has a way of prevailing.
Try this one next week. Obama Care is going to implement “forced sex change operations”. It’s equally as truthful as the rest of the wingnut nonsense.
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:52 am 14. chilloutyo:More government = leftist desire. Less government = rightist desire. Reform can happen either way.
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:59 am 15. Pragmatist:Just as the Obamanations approval figures go down the toilet up pops the ‘libtard’ jharp claiming VICTORY such reverse morality, cognitive dissonance and blind worship is so pathetic to see in any individual but par for the course for a PC,MC moonbat ‘libtard’ such as jharp.
Aug 15, 2009 - 8:03 am 16. rachel peepers:Mr. Chapin writes,
“The latest assault on our institutions and freedoms comes from the Democratic Party’s health care initiative. Polling data suggest that most Americans are not in favor of Congress’ vague but extensive restructuring venture (disguised as reform), as 89 percent of us are satisfied with our own medical care.”
Of course, Bernard Chapin discusses many other assaults on the fabric of our nation which Barack Obama is willy nilly making on the United States of America, from a stimulus scheme that’s spending us into bankruptcy and super inflation, to the neutering of our military which is the main reason our country has stayed safe all these years.
I ask you to think of our nation like this.
Pretend that on your coffee table, the greatest country on earth is a jigsaw puzzle with almost all the pieces fitting nicely together.
This imbecile, you can visualize him as the Joker from Batman, who hates many of the institutions of our country comes along and intentionally knocks the table over dislodging many of the painstakingly configured, handcrafted pieces (the fabric of our nation) that have taken over 200 years to assemble.
This is in metaphorical terms what Obama has done since he took office.
Now it’s time to politically take Barack apart, piece by piece.
Aug 15, 2009 - 8:08 am 17. George S.:DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
you cannot tiptoe around a bully and hope he will leave you allow. or to be gratefull that the bully isn’t trageting you but some one else. It is this kind of thinking that has reduced the world to dictators and tyrants.
as for the trolls …see below. don’t engage them, don’t reply to them. they for the most part are already lost.
watch this clip and you will understand why they continue to make the same arguments over and over no matter what they are shown or told.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTmbcyeZ9ic&feature=related
this clip gives great insight into the lefts blind following of an ideology that will bury them at the same time it buries us.
Aug 15, 2009 - 8:13 am 18. Jeff Weimer:4. Anonymous:
Bernard Chapin:
“as 89 percent of us are satisfied with our own medical care.”
What a distorted lie!
Why didn’t you print the whole unreliable information from your Fox source?
“A survey conducted jointly by the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their own personal medical care, but only 44 percent were satisfied with the overall quality of the American medical system. ”
2006, 44%.
Yes, juggle your numbers.
It’s not the people who are satisfied with their medical care, it’s the insurance, pharmaceutical companies and all the greedy profiteers. They paid you to write this, didn’t they?
Aug 15, 2009 – 4:52 am
Umm, Anonymous, you have just defeated your own argument with your own supporting quote – verified in your post by your inclusion of Bernard’s statement.
I personally don’t think YOU are being paid to write that. Groups that do such a thing generally require competence.
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:26 am 19. Ed Wallis:Good insight.
Here’s a similar take:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=OTAxYzFjODdiN2E3OWUyNzY1MDU1ODM1ZjZjYmY3YjM=
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:29 am 20. Jeff Weimer:And obviously I’m not being paid either, since I forgot to close the italics in my previous post.
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:29 am 21. tanstaafl:I’m weary, reduced to aphorisms from individuals who are orders of magnitude smarter and wiser than the current crop of Chicago thugs & power mongers trying to re-engineer America from the cocoon-like insularity of Washington DC.
The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.
~Margaret Thatcher
I contend that a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
~Winston Churchill
A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.
~George Bernard Shaw
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
~P.J. O’Rourke
Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.
~Frederic Bastiat, French Economist (1801-1850)
In general, the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other.
~Voltaire (1764)
No man’s life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session.
~Mark Twain (1866)
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
~Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)
I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents.
~James Madison
Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:29 am 22. Moho:~Mark Twain
The only thing that surpasses the tendency of the writers on Pajamas Media to write baseless opinion, is their distortion of references when they finally do use citations.
Chapin says:
The latest assault on our institutions and freedoms comes from the Democratic Party’s health care initiative. Polling data suggest that most Americans are not in favor of Congress’ vague but extensive restructuring venture (disguised as reform), as 89 percent of us are satisfied with our own medical care.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-10-15-health-poll1.htm
In fact, 80% of the respondents said they were “dissatisfied with the cost of their health care”. That has steadily increased since 2001 when it was only 71%. 48% said that they trusted Democrats to do a better job on healthcare than Republicans (only 31% trusted them). 52% of the respondents said that the situation of non-insured was critical, and another nearly forty percent said it was a serious problem.
Finally, and perhaps most illuminating, 50% knew that the rising cost of health care was because insurance companies were making too much money. I should also note that its a 2006 poll. In fact, another USAToday poll, completed just a month ago, shows that about 60% of Americans favor a government overhaul of the health care system and insurance, with only 33% oppposed.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2009-07-13-poll-health-care_N.htm?obref=obinsite
What’s really interesting is that rather than link to the original poll, which shows the actual data, you linked to a Fox story about the poll. Its a USA Today poll, why link to another publication’s take on it, instead of looking at the data itself? Was it because you knew the poll doesn’t actually demonstrate what both you and Fox say it does? Is it a compulsive need to distort? Do you think that your readers are really this dumb? Only time will tell about that last part, I suppose, but it looks increasingly like you’ve judged your suckers well.
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:39 am 23. tanstaafl:Quality Time with Jan Schakowsky
I didn’t think that was possible…
According to the laws of physics
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:48 am 24. venividivici:“A survey conducted jointly by the Kaiser Family Foundation, ABC News and USA Today, released in October 2006, found that 89 percent of Americans were satisfied with their own personal medical care, but only 44 percent were satisfied with the overall quality of the American medical system. ”
All this says to me is that people are being told that the “overall quality of the American medical system” is “unsatisfactory” so constantly by the media and Leftist politicos that they take it to heart, even though on the more personal question of their own care, they are satisfied. In situations with this sort of disconnect between a person’s own experience and the more abstract question of “the system”, common sense dictates that we give full weight to the individual’s response about their own situation and minimal weight to their response regarding the entire system.
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:53 am 25. McCool:“Republicans are “nearly united” in opposing it, but, alas, the left has the votes to push some kind of counterproductive measure through — even if it’s not totally transformative — without their assistance. Indeed, even if the GOP fights like paratroopers stranded in Bastogne, the much-heralded conservatives of the Democratic Party appear to be more lapdog than blue dog.”
Republicans are what? They are doing nothing but standing there and saying they will not vote on this while the dems slander their constituents. These clowns have learned nothing from bush, they are still concerned about keeping Democrates happy, they will never be happy they will always send code pinko’s foaming at the mouth as soon as a conservative speaks. Why are the Republicans silent on this sure the “Republican Media” is vocal. Where are the senators requesting that Obama state the SEIU acted stupidly for beating a black man opposing their plan. Where are the republicans requesting the information from flag@whitehouse.gov be made public due to it being illegal for the whitehouse to collect data on citizens. Where are they in pointing out that this healthcare is a violation of their roe vs. wade because we have a right to medical “privacy”. They are nowhere, they are not vocal they want this as much as the dems, they just have to play their scripted roles. While on the side lines they all agree we the people need to be but in our place. Vote for a “social conservative like bush” we get a president who is only conservative on social issues, spends money like a sailor and violates the law left and right. For for a “suposed moderate” we get Obama a marxist radical. They all are taking us in the same direction one is just quicker than the other. Vote these clowns out of office, eliminate this two party monte’ system, we vote for one get the other they wave bipartisenship as a banner of good. Bipartisen ship us just a politician throwing their parties core values to the wind for publicity. I want partisenchip I want my representative standing firm and strong getting vocal engaging the opposition and adding to the public debate not just standing there waiting for us to do their job. The reason these town halls have are so out of hand is not only because Americans are very concerned about this, but also because these people have to speak up because they do not have voice in washington right now just a bunch of empty suits.
Aug 15, 2009 - 9:56 am 26. Moho:The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.
This made me laugh out loud. France and Germany, socialist hobgoblins in the little minds fond of seperating out policies into good (free market) and bad (joker-faced socialism, gasp)just officially pulled out of the recession, ahead of America:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8198766.stm
France and Germany exit recession
The French and German economies both grew by 0.3% between April and June, bringing to an end year-long recessions in Europe’s largest economies.
Stronger exports and consumer spending, as well as government stimulus packages, contributed to the growth.
The data came as a surprise, with few analysts expecting Germany and France to start to recover so soon.
But economic activity in the eurozone fell by 0.1%, showing the region as a whole is still in recession.
It was the fifth consecutive quarter of economic contraction in the eurozone, but was a marked improvement on the 2.5% drop recorded in the first three months of the year.
And from the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/13/AR2009081300504.html
A significant rebound in the global economy could both help and hurt the United States. Growth abroad could fuel an eagerly anticipated uptick in U.S. exports, boosting the manufacturing sector and potentially channeling more investment into U.S. soil. Yet too quick an increase in global demand could spark a painful price spike for commodities such as oil, driving up inflation before the United States and other nations have fully emerged from recession.
Given that you people base your economic strategies on a platform of mythological snakes and demons, I think most Americans are probably pretty glad that no matter how bad things are right now, the Republicans aren’t anywhere near the driver’s seat.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:00 am 27. Samizdat:Conservative Visitors,
Comes a time when reality dictates protocol.
When a visitor asserts that it has been a bad week for the forces arrayed against nationalized Obamacare and objective evidence shows that statement to be fraudulent, its time to ignore that person as he or she is not sufficiently in touch with the objective world to warrant taking the time to refute their unsupported assertions. It’s time to disengage and ignore childish pronouncements.
There is already one lefty visitor who doesn’t warrant dialogue because that person lables all who disagree with him or her stupid. The evidence abounds for similar treatment for some others.
I look forward to vigorous debate with people who are in touch with the real world even if I disagree with them. I am not wasting my time having a discussion with those who lack the intellectual capacity to speak truth and knowingly advance fraud. There are certain trolls who exhibit such fundamental dishonesty that they aren’t worth communicating with.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:14 am 28. Moho:When a visitor asserts that it has been a bad week for the forces arrayed against nationalized Obamacare and objective evidence shows that statement to be fraudulent, its time to ignore that person as he or she is not sufficiently in touch with the objective world to warrant taking the time to refute their unsupported assertions. It’s time to disengage and ignore childish pronouncements.
Translation: I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you, I can’t hear you…
Maybe Batman will save you from the howible leftists making you listen to words that don’t sound like your words…
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:29 am 29. yes we can, but please don't:Annonymous # 4:
You are probably correct in your numbers. However, why would you think that government intervention will make it any better. Look at all the inefficiencies in the current systems they are involved. My Father has had the same surgery at the VA 7 times and his problem always comes back. I wonder how many of those that are unhappy with their care are individuals who eat large amounts of fast food, consume too much booze, and smoke. We often forget about personal responsibility and we look for someone else to save us. I admit that the government plays a large role in maintaining order and civility so that society can function, but let us be clear they can’t be everything for everybody. They can’t make everything totally fair and just, and they can’t meet every need. They are limited becaue their revenue and power comes entirely from the people. Sometimes life is hell and it is unfair and good old Uncle Sam can’t do a thing about it. You also spoke of the greed and corruption in the private sector, and you are absolutely correct. However, those same vile traits can be see in every other human institution including the government. There is this vicious circle that happens, people put trust in the private sector until they get burned then they put their faith in the public sector until they get burned. They then bounce back to the private sector, it is insanity at its worst.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:33 am 30. KDW:From what I can see Obamacare guarantees American citizens
the “right” to pay premiums for health insurance and the
“right” to have their taxes raised to pay for other
citizen’s insurance coverage. The problem is that
Obamacare does not actually guarantee TREATMENT SHOULD
YOU GET SICK! It only guarantees access to a general
practicioner who along with government bureaucrats will
determine whether you are worthy or cost effective enough
to be treated.
If an insurance scheme (government or not) does not
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:39 am 31. tanstaafl:guarantee that patients will be treated , especially
after they have paid enormous sums in taxes or premiums,
what is the point? In that case, I would rather spend
my money on something else.
I am not wasting my time having a discussion with those who lack the intellectual capacity to speak truth and knowingly advance fraud.
Trolls don’t offer anything except, in knee jerk fashion, a predictable litany of pre-disgested talking points.
It’s impossible to reach a troll with truth or logic, so it’s best to save your breath, fingers, whatever.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:43 am 32. Moho:However, those same vile traits can be see in every other human institution including the government.
Its an interesting argument that I would agree with on the surface. But I feel that it always ignores the very intricate and inextricable relationships between government and business beginning in the late 19th century. Certainly, if the government can’t respond effectively to the human condition, a for profit organization has even less a chance to do that. If a free market view posits that any corporation not meeting a need will eventually go out of business, how do we handle artificial and often invisible trusts and monopolies that have been imposed through government intervention. Trust me, the last entities in the world that want a true free market are corporations–they want a market that excludes their competition, or, barring that, allows them to set prices and wages by fixing the market with their competitors. They can achieve that with their inordinate wealth and influence on the corporate sector.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:46 am 33. Sherab Zangpo:Excellent column.
BUT I have my usual sermon to add: when the Author says:
“Indeed, federal intervention invariably exacerbates the social problems it deigns to address and the debt from its undertakings endangers our future”
he seems to forget Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals:
exacerbating social problems is EXACTLY the goal of the subversives, because that is what will involve larger and larger numbers of Citizens in the CLASS WARFARE that the subversives intend to ignite.
Subversives understand that free market economy acts as a wave, increasing and improving with sure historical progression the level of life of the whole society (and , in a larger perspective, of the whole world). THEREFORE, they need to KILL the golden eggs hen.
And they do : “stimulus” crazy spending, cap and trade, health “care” are meant to crush the American economy, cause serious problems and trigger class warfare.
We have to do with professional revolutionaries (the present president has never held a job except as a professional social agit-prop).
Lenin taught to the communists that they could have only ONE job, the revolution.
Our “honest” politcians, if any such thing still exists, keep hiding their heads in the sand, in the hope that the big scary thingo will disappear.
It will not.
We need to defend Freedom.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:46 am 34. Jeff Perren:“only 44 percent were satisfied with the overall quality of the American medical system”
I an in the 56%. I am dissatisfied with the overall quality of the American medical system. I want it to be much better, much less expensive than it is at present so that I can afford it more readily and achieve better health.
THEREFORE, I advocate radically deregulating both insurance and medicine. With the chains removed, the pace of innovation will increase, costs will go down, and – most important – liberty will be maximized.
Anyone who advocates the opposite does not want medical care to improve or be more readily affordable; he or she only wants individual choices to be even more controlled. But, then, this is all Progressives have ever wanted.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:53 am 35. venividivici:In fact, 80% of the respondents said they were “dissatisfied with the cost of their health care”.
Two points. One, according to the CBO, none of the plans on the table will do anything to reduce costs, so one would logically deduce that the 80% number would actually go higher.
Two, people complaining about the cost of something? The deuce you say. Newsflash for ya buddy, people have been complaining about the cost of things since the first caveman sold a lion skin to his neighbor. Get a grip.
Given that you people base your economic strategies on a platform of mythological snakes and demons
I base my economics on the University of Chicago’s 26 Nobel Prize winning economists vision of free markets, with a smidgen of “public choice” theory. Nary a snake or demon in the vicinity.
Finally, and perhaps most illuminating, 50% knew that the rising cost of health care was because insurance companies were making too much money.
Yep, those 5% net profit margins are really burning a hole in the insurers’ pockets, I’m sure. By this logic, I could say that health care seems to cost too much because Apple’s double-digit net profit margins suck up financial resources that could otherwise be spend on health care. Middlemen (which is what insurers are, ultimately) throughout history have made a small cut off each dollar and striven for high volumes. There’s nothing unseemly about a 5% margin for that business model unless you simply are anti-capitalist.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:54 am 36. jharp:Samizdat:
“I look forward to vigorous debate with people who are in touch with the real world even if I disagree with them.”
Does this include those who spread the lies of death panels to scare the hell out of the elderly?
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:56 am 37. jharp:22. Moho:
Its a USA Today poll, why link to another publication’s take on it, instead of looking at the data itself?
Was it because you knew the poll doesn’t actually demonstrate what both you and Fox say it does?
Is it a compulsive need to distort?
Do you think that your readers are really this dumb?
Yes, yes, and yes.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:01 am 38. tanstaafl:…(subversives) need to KILL the golden eggs hen.
And they do : “stimulus” crazy spending, cap and trade, health “care” are meant to crush the American economy, cause serious problems and trigger class warfare.
As well as engendering class warfare, the notion of economic collapse is central to the Bill Ayers/Saul Alinsky ethos of revolution, the destruction of capitalism.
“economic collapse of the west” is a core objective of radical Islam, emphasized less than the infidel angle, but, nevertheless, very important to the likes of OBL.
the World Trade Center, nexus of economic activity, wasn’t a casual (repeat) choice.
This US President appears to have quite an affinity for Islam, constantly reassuring Islamic leaders that he gets their shtick.
Does he have an affinity for the common economic goals of radical (domestic) revolution and radical Islam ? Truthfully, illegally using the machinery of the federal government to spread the wealth around doesn’t seem like a very capitalist friendly philosophy of life.
Only a cynic (like me) would dare suggest that recent (largely insane) economic moves by this administration are intentionally trying to destroy the US economy.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:13 am 39. Moho:And in that CBO report, where does it say that? I haven’t read the entire CBO report, and neither have you. But I did find this:
A Congressional Budget Office analysis of an early proposal concluded that premiums for the public option would average 10 percent lower than premiums for typical private coverage. The C.B.O. also estimated that one-third of Americans who qualify for help with their health insurance premiums would enroll in this cost-effective choice….
…Economists argue that the public option’s lower premiums would force private insurers to lower their rates, too. Public and private plans have different competitive advantages — lower administrative costs versus tighter controls on the provider network, for example. But the healthy competition of each plan bringing their best game to the insurance marketplace should drive down costs for all: the individuals and businesses who purchase coverage, and the taxpayers who help subsidize premiums for some of these customers.
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/what-happened-to-a-public-health-plan/
Finally–>
I base my economics on the University of Chicago’s 26 Nobel Prize winning economists vision of free markets, with a smidgen of “public choice” theory. Nary a snake or demon in the vicinity.
Really, I’d be interested in having you explain that vision of the free market. Go on, I yield the remainder of my time to you. Remember, in your own words.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:17 am 40. Pragmatist:jharp dont you ever get tired of spreading your ‘libtard’ BS you are a joke and we are all laughing at YOU.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:23 am 41. Sherab Zangpo:#38 TANSTAAFL
You make an interesting point in highlighting that today’s subversives share the goal to destroy the core of the West’s power (i.e., free-market economy) with bin laden.
If you read “Empire”, written by the man who has been accused of (and jailed for) being the chief of the (italian) red brigades, Antonio Negri (and gloriously published in America by an Ivy League UP), you will discover that today’s leninists do not center any longer their activity on the blue collars of the developed world, but on the masses that migrate from one country to another: they call this post-modern proletariat “THE MULTITUDE” and they see in it the force that can disorganize and attack the Western World.
In this sense, today’s marxist-leninists center their reflection and their action on the same masses that bin laden hopes to use.
there is an objective identity of plans.
hence, we must expect an immigration “reform” sooner than later, because this will add another ingredient to the explosive mix that the domestic subversives (moved by international forces) are preparing.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:29 am 42. venividivici:Trust me, the last entities in the world that want a true free market are corporations–they want a market that excludes their competition, or, barring that, allows them to set prices and wages by fixing the market with their competitors. They can achieve that with their inordinate wealth and influence on the corporate sector.
I have been in board meetings of three of the Fortune 500 and know and work with people who’ve been in the board meetings of dozens of others. NEVER ONCE IN THE COURSE OF THOSE MEETINGS DID THE SUBJECT OF COLLUDING WITH COMPETITORS COME UP. Jeez, I hate to “scream” about this but people like Moho, who are on the outside looking in on these things, spread these idiotic conspiracy theories based on nothing, or a few isolated cases.
There is a problem in the capitalist institutions of the West, in that the decision-making processes are fairly far removed from the masses of workers and this is an anomaly in human history and evolution, which is used to decision-making in small groups. As someone who was formerly on the “outside” of this decision-making process but is now on the “inside”, I can see how its opacity can be confusing to the average worker. However, that’s because the masses of workers don’t have the proper training, industry knowledge and, frankly, willingness to dedicate much or most of their waking lives to analyzing issues of business strategy. And, yes, I know all about “herd thinking” and how it can cause an entire industry, like the banking industry, to simultaneously run off a cliff, but there is absolutely no evidence that if you had put a bank teller from a Citibank branch in the CEO’s seat instead of Vikram Pandit, the result would have been any different. When I think of a complete naif like Moho giving a presentation to a board of directors saying that the best way to improve the business’ prospects is to collude with competitors, I nearly double over with laughter at how quickly he’d be tossed out of the meeting on his butt. So, into this vacuum of ignorance flows ridiculous conspiracies on how business gets done, which are then taken up as gospel by a certain segment of society. As I say, it is a problem, but short of eliminating all of the benefits of economies of scale from our society, I don’t see how decision-making can be brought back down to a level where the simpler among us can participate. Sorry, moho.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:31 am 43. Paul M hupf:The Associated Press produced a news item, appearing in today’s (Aug 15,2009) papers. The President is described as “trying to lower the heat of the health care fight.” A questioner asked him: “You can’t tell us how you’re going to pay for this. The only way you’r going to get the money is raise our taxes.”
The President’s response, as reported in the news article: “You’re absolutely right. I can’t cover another 46 million people for free. We’re going to have to find money from somewhere.”
I call attention to the use of the personal pronoun: “I can’t…” The President reveals himself. He sees himself as the one all and be all. Congress, the legislative body of the United States, is there to do his bidding and as in Germany, when Hitler became Chancellor, the Congress becomes a mere tool of the presidency. A compliant Senate will confirm all of his apppointments to the Supreme Court, with the result that the President will be able to rule by decree as did Hitler.
The picture is not pretty.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:32 am 44. DaveinPhoenix:Maybe if 30% of Americans weren’t obese, maybe if 20% of Americans weren’t addicted to drugs or alcohol, maybe if 20% didn’t smoke we’d have a less expensive health care system ? Maybe if we didn’t sue each other over every mistake made we’d have a less expensive health care system ?
Maybe we should become more responsible people ? Maybe not make poor decisions about our mortgages ? Our health ? Our budgets ?
Nope. That would be just too hard. Far easier to run to government to take care of adolescent America. A freaking nation of children proud to be dependent on everyone else for their irresponsible lives. Freedom = Responsibility. Case closed. Grow up America.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:35 am 45. PeanutButter:Why ruin a working system to benefit a minority of people who don’t support the current one?
The critics of US health care are right about some stuff: health care “disasters” (cancer, kidney failures, etc) for families ought to be treated as disasters to cities and beyond a limit, the govt ought to suck up the cost. But this would not mean elective surgeries or viagra pills. I think most people would agree with this limited “Disaster relief” health care. Limited to citizens not visitors or illegals.
Critics–like jharp–are wrong in insisting that US health care ought to be redone as proposed by the current ocngress. Why upend a system that works well for the VAST MAJORITY? Why do so for approximately 47 million people most of which either are (a) illegally here; or (b), elect to pay their money for large screen tv’s instead of health isnurance?
The cost of the care will not go down under Obama’s plan: it’ll go up as 47 million more people use the same resources or we spend more to add more resources to the system.
That is, we’ll wind up flaying the people already paying most of the taxes even more to support those here illegally or who elect to buy big TV’s or send money back home instead of buying health care.
Critics misconstrue the polls too: concern over the cost of health care does not mean we want to get rid of the current system, anymore than the cost of taxes mean we want to get rid of congress.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:46 am 46. venividivici:Really, I’d be interested in having you explain that vision of the free market. Go on, I yield the remainder of my time to you. Remember, in your own words.
Oh, I see. It’s the libtard rhetorical device where you accuse me of not actually knowing what I advocate because I’m too stupid. Right?
A market where private investors allocate capital to companies pursuing profitable opportunities to provide goods and services is the most efficient method for allocating scarce resources, especially capital, both financial and human. There is a role for government to play as a “referee” in these market, where there is a consensus that some minimal standards must be upheld, but essentially the markets are self-correcting when there are multiple competitors in each segment, which enables consumers to allocate their spending to the competitor which best fits their needs in terms of product quality, reliability, price and other meaningful attributes.
And in that CBO report, where does it say that? I haven’t read the entire CBO report, and neither have you.
I read the two PDFs linked here from the CBO, which indicate that nothing put down so far will bring down total costs. And I notice that your link did not provide her own link to the actual analysis of that premium decline.
http://healthpolicyandmarket.blogspot.com/2008/12/cbo-to-health-care-reformers-naive.html
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:48 am 47. jharp:“Yep, those 5% net profit margins are really burning a hole in the insurers’ pockets, I’m sure.”
That 5% is after paying the executives hundreds of millions of dollars if not billions.
For denying claims and only insuring healthy people.
One of these days the light will go on and you fools will understand that you are voting against your own best interests.
Perhaps Obama Care will illuminate things for you.
Until then, enjoy the worst economy since the depression, courtesy of George Bush and the GOP.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:49 am 48. jharp:venividivici:
“I have been in board meetings of three of the Fortune 500 and know and work with people who’ve been in the board meetings of dozens of others. NEVER ONCE IN THE COURSE OF THOSE MEETINGS DID THE SUBJECT OF COLLUDING WITH COMPETITORS COME UP.”
You really are an ignorant fool.
Did ya ever think it’s not brought up in a board meeting is because it’s illegal?
Geez.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:52 am 49. jharp:“Critics misconstrue the polls too: concern over the cost of health care does not mean we want to get rid of the current system, anymore than the cost of taxes mean we want to get rid of congress.”
We’re not “getting rid” of the current system.
For the 10,000th time. You can keep your insurance.
Medicare and Medicaid are being left alone.
And we’re adding a public option for those who can’t buy insurance.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:55 am 50. venividivici:41
you will discover that today’s leninists do not center any longer their activity on the blue collars of the developed world,
Yes, these people took exactly the wrong lesson away from the experience of the working class in the West, i.e. that collaboration with management led to better overall outcomes, preferring instead to seek out the “wretched of the earth” and turn them into their weapon of choice against capital.
I’m pretty sure Mike Tyson said after his stint in prison that he was a Maoist, which shows you another segment of the population they target. The funny and pathetic thing is that these self-proclaimed “intellectuals” think they can create an army of the unwashed and set it loose on the institutions of the West and there will be no repercussions that blow back on the “intellectuals”.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:57 am 51. venividivici:You really are an ignorant fool.
Did ya ever think it’s not brought up in a board meeting is because it’s illegal?
Geez.
If you were half as intelligent as you think you are, you’d be a quarter intelligent enough to understand the context of what I said, apparently. I will explain it to you in simple enough term: Those board meetings are the ONLY TIME STRATEGY IS DISCUSSED. If there is an important decision to be made or agreement that must be reached, THAT IS THE TIME TO BRING IT UP, WHEN EVERYONE IS IN THE ROOM, so there will be an opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of doing something like that.
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:00 pm 52. Mark "Still on the Enemies List" Epstein:Moho #26 Perhaps you believe the liberal (BBC and WashPost) mainstream media’s reporting on the economic revival of France and Germany, but the actual economic indicators in both countries, as well as those of those claiming the recession is over in the US, are actually quite different. HOWEVER, let’s say they are true. Then the question is will Obama put the brakes on the majority of the stimulus spending (pork) being distributed, since it hasn’t been spent yet? Answer: Of course not! That money is earmarked for liberal supporters of the current administration, courtesy of future US taxpayers. And, unfortunately, this is the same “plan” for Obamacare, i.e., obtain future revenue from tax increases and future generations. If we merely look at the distorted “conservative” figures the non-partisan OMB applied to Medicare years ago ($12 billion in projected spending) versus the actual spending (>$120 billion), one gets a sense of where this is headed. If Obamacare only costs $1 Trillion from 2010-2020, it is estimated that “actual costs” will exceed more than ten times that figure from 2020-2030, given the historical pattern of OMB projections, and we’re just not talking about their skewed Medicare figures. The bottom line to all of this is money. The government wants taxpayers and their children to foot the bill. Considering the uninsured Obama keeps talking about do not pay taxes for the most part, it sure is a sweetheart deal for them, isn’t it? In fact, maybe what we ought to do is eliminate voting rights for non-taxpayers and see just how different the political landscape becomes overnight, as well as how receptive to constituents our representatives will henceforth be. Of course, we will still allow retired folks who paid taxes throughout their working lives to vote, since they contributed to society. Hmmm, come to think of it though, that sounds like just the opposite of how health care will be rationed to these former societal contributors under Obamacare.
On a side note, having lived in Germany for ten years, let me ask you this Moho: How would you like to pay a church tax to the state just so you can be buried in the socialist “utopia” you think Germany is? Or, how would you like to decide by the second grade whether you would be attending college? Yes, that’s the real deal in Deutschland. Can I get a Nein Danke (no thank you) out of you?
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:03 pm 53. tanstaafl:Dave, #44
There is a direct relationship between growing government in our lives and a decline in an individual sense of personal responsibility, for one’s behavior, health, etc.
What is a modern day Liberal except, by and large, a collection of individuals who want to assign every aspect of their beings over to government regulation ?
Government, as currently constituted in Washington DC, seems more than happy to oblige and drag all the Useful Idiots into the Borg.
And they won’t be happy unless they can use the machinery of government to drag you in as well.
(over and out)
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:04 pm 54. venividivici:That 5% is after paying the executives hundreds of millions of dollars if not billions.
So, what do you think, the head of any “public option” plan is going to work for minimum wage? In fact, I would bet his/her compensation would rival Franklin Raines’ as head of Fannie Mae. Oh, I guess it would be OK because the head of the public plan would likely be a Democrat.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2004358433_webraines18.html
Raines’ total compensation from 1998 through 2004 was $91.1 million, including some $52.6 million in bonuses, according to OFHEO. Howard earned $30.8 million during the period, including $16.8 million in bonuses; Spencer received $7.3 million, of which some $3.5 million was bonus money.
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:09 pm 55. venividivici:And we’re adding a public option for those who can’t buy insurance.
Which, over time, will lead to single-payer.
http://ace.mu.nu/archives/290735.php
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:11 pm 56. venividivici:You really are an ignorant fool.
Did ya ever think it’s not brought up in a board meeting is because it’s illegal?
Geez.
By the way, just what on God’s green earth is YOUR experience sitting in board meetings of Fortune 500 companies? I have actually done so, have you?
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:30 pm 57. seiu thug:“Try this one next week. Obama Care is going to implement “forced sex change operations”. It’s equally as truthful as the rest of the wingnut nonsense.”
Have you seen Michelle Obama?
Aug 15, 2009 - 12:46 pm 58. steveg:#41..Sherab…The very reason why ANSWER (a communist front-group) has been active in immigration reform.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:08 pm 59. rachel peepers:In the Obama administration, I’m sorry to say, the only thing that truly will equal reform is just one thing.
The administration’s wholesale removal from office. Lock. Stock. And barrel.
Let’s face it, in the short time President Obama and his underlings have been in power, they’re proven that they don’t know what to do with it.
Intentionally or not, they’ve botched up everything they’ve touched and cost taxpayers gazillions in the process. They’ve done the equivalent of buying each of us a one way ticket to bankrupt oblivion. I just hope it’s not too late to get off the train.
As Bernard Chapin so eruditely points out,the stimulus — imperils our ability to ever get out of debt.
Cap and tax seeks to act like a 50 pound weight tied around the leg of anyone trying to make a go of a business and, for their family, live the American Dream.
The latest and largest assault on our institutions and freedoms, of course, comes from the Democratic Party’s health care initiative.
Polling data suggest that most Americans are not in favor of Congress’ vague but extensive restructuring venture (disguised as reform), as 89 percent of us are satisfied with our own medical care.
Yes, 89 percent. Read it and believe it.
Virtually everyone I talk to loves their doctor and is delighted with the quality of care they receive. While they’d like health care for free, in America (maybe somebody should twitter Obama) there’s no such thing as a free lunch.)
Generally, though, things are quite fine in our doctor’s offices and our community hospitals and academic medical centers.
Thank you, President Obama, for asking. But, like a little dog that nips at your heals, Obama can’t let well enough alone. He’s got to spend billions to fix what’s not broken.
And is destined to leave us tax payers in a real fix.
What really hits my main nerve is the fallacious main reason Obama throws in our face for having reform in the first place.
His mantra of a justification for health care reform is that this country has 46 million uninsured Americans.
Not quite true, Obamabreath.
Fact is, a large part of that 46 million our joker is counting as uninsured Americans aren’t Americans at all. They’re illegal aliens.
Hellsapoppin’ I’d like nothing better than to pick up the tab for felony perps who break our immigration laws, (vehicle, dui laws; and who knows what other laws )with reckless abandon.
(I wouldn’t be surprised if Obama one day wants me to contribute to their bail money.)
But getting back to that 46 million figure Obama picked out of thin air.
He grandiose, expensivo plans don’t just including offering ObamaCare. They’re sure as shootn’ include bleeding private health care dry with new governmental rules and regulations that will eventually bleed it dry. It’ll die a slow, tortured death.
Relying on a new ant farm of Washington bureaucrats, ObamaCare would have me paying five thousand tax dollars to the God of inefficiency for every $10,000 they charge me for.
And, like Sarah Palin and AARP suggests, if I’m 80 and need another heart operation, well, c’est la vie.
In other words, half of the charges will go to bureaucrats Obama put into brand spanking new, high paying health care jobs, which, incidentally, offer health care plans far better than my ObamaCare. And who, in the end, will decide our fate. Not our doctor.
I can’t believe that the niggardly Joker has the gall, nerve and audacity to turn our health care system upside down.
To appear in public after spouting his corn cob pipe dreams of squandering tax money like there was no tomorrow on people who break our immigration laws with impunity.
Far as I’m concerned, JokaBama and his laughingstock Demrods can’t be voted out of office soon enough.
Starting in 2010, DemRod socialistas are going to be (I hope) swept out of office on the broom of public exposure and derision like trash that’s piled up on the bathroom floor.
In my humble but healthy opinion, ObamaCare is a sick idea.
And in 2010 the cure will require no more than showing up at the polls on election day.
Assuming, of course, that Obamas’ money grubbing schemes don’t milk us so dry that we no longer can afford the trip.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:11 pm 60. jharp:51. venividivici:
“Those board meetings are the ONLY TIME STRATEGY IS DISCUSSED. If there is an important decision to be made or agreement that must be reached, THAT IS THE TIME TO BRING IT UP, WHEN EVERYONE IS IN THE ROOM, so there will be an opportunity to discuss the pros and cons of doing something like that.”
You an an an imbecile if you believe openly discussing the strategy of committing a crime would be openly discussed at a board meeting.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:16 pm 61. Moho:Epstein:
Moho #26 Perhaps you believe the liberal (BBC and WashPost) mainstream media’s reporting on the economic revival of France and Germany, but the actual economic indicators in both countries, as well as those of those claiming the recession is over in the US, are actually quite different.
Unless you’re a complete fool, you’ll understand why I’m inclined to believe two newspapers with sourcing over someone who simply claims “actual economic indicators…are actually quite different.” I don’t care how ideologically motivated you people have convinced yourselves the media is, its still more credible than simply stating “because I said so.” Sheesh.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:32 pm 62. Calvin Ball:And then escorted out by security. And then served notice of termination FOR CAUSE by legal.
These doofs are living in Kos Kartoon land. I’ll bet he’d be expecting fried baby legs for lunch.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:35 pm 63. Moho:Veni–>You’re making me laugh now. I didn’t ask you for the definition of a free market, I asked you to explain this:
I base my economics on the University of Chicago’s 26 Nobel Prize winning economists vision of free markets, with a smidgen of “public choice” theory.
What is that vision in your own words? I doubt they won a Nobel prize for looking something up in a dictionary and writing a paragraph about it. What is it about their vision of the free market that proves its superior. You’re appealing to authority here–their nobel prizes–to prove that free market philosophy is superior, but you haven’t drawn any line between them and the free market. Thus, it is just what it seems to be–a dishonest rhetorical device usually used by people who have a shaky grasp of the subject matter. Come on, dude.
As for your other appeal to authority–your claim of having been in all those board rooms–you’ll forgive me if I take that assertion with a few grains of salt given that we’re both anonymous here; and you and others should thank me for not throwing out a similar and useless piece of bs. If what you say is true, then I wonder what all those industrial associations and lobbying groups are doing up in Washington.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:40 pm 64. myth buster:Moho, monopolists can use barriers to entry to prevent others from undercutting them and stealing their business. However, that will not save them if the public isn’t interested in buying what they’re selling. You can’t make money as a monopolist in the VHS business anymore because nobody wants a new VHS player.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:49 pm 65. steveg:Liberal/progressives never consider the cost of their well intended social engineering programs. The war on poverty has cost the American taxpayer in excess of $5 trillion dollars, and years later you have a classic liberal democrat who studied the W on P extensively, and concluded that it probably did more harm than good for the black family. Of course, he was labeled a racist for his supposedly controversial remarks.
But, I’m sure the liberals still patted themselves on the back, and felt morally superior even knowing it was a complete failure, and added significantly to the national debt. They always do, no matter how many lives they have ruined.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:49 pm 66. Moho:Yeah, poor Marcus Epstein on the enemies list, I’m sure his vilification doesn’t have anything to do with this…
From Epstein’s police report:
On July 7, 2007, at approximately 7:15 p.m. at Jefferson and M Street, Northwest, in Washington, D.C., defendant was walking down the street making offensive remarks when he encountered the complainant, Ms. [REDACTED], who is African-American. The defendant uttered, “N*****,” as he delivered a karate chop to Ms. [REDACTED]’s head.
I thought this was hilarious in the light of this Epstein quote from his own blog…
In one of his few moments of insight, Jonah Goldberg laid bare an implicit assumption surrounding Obama’s campaign: “Given recent events, it seems that if you’re not with the Obama program, you’re fair game for tarring as a crypto-racist.”
No need to fear being tarred as a crypto-racist. Just plain old racist will do.
Aug 15, 2009 - 1:58 pm 67. adam:The Democrats are getting caught in their usual contradiction–as “Progressives,” their founding political principle is that they are smarter than everyone else and therefore have a divine right to rule. The only way to rule, though, is to manipulate people–that stands to reason, if they’re all too stupid to understand what is clear to you. But the mask has to slip–when, for example, everyone can see a video of Obama a few years back arguing for single payer, or when everyone can see that their health care reform must ultimately lead to the establishment of committees to determine who is too sick, old, or useless to receive care–and then they must become overtly insulting and start projecting their own manipulative strategies onto others. (For a progressive, if the people do anything, it’s because they are being tricked–the crime is when the other side gets there first) It’s the “law of motion” of Progressivism, and it completes the cycle more quickly every time. After 7 months we’re already there–elected officials are sounding like Leftist trolls on a blog, calling names and telling the “idiots” to shut up. It’s a wonderful spectacle–soon Obama will also be touting the booming German and French economies! And whining about “teabaggers”!
Aug 15, 2009 - 2:22 pm 68. tanstaafl:This made me laugh out loud. France and Germany, socialist hobgoblins in the little minds fond of seperating out policies into good (free market) and bad (joker-faced socialism, gasp)just officially pulled out of the recession, ahead of America:
Sweet pea (Mo-Ho, not Less-Ho) both France & Germany have been moving their economies out of the (longtime stagnating) socialist model.
What do you think the election of conservatives Sarkozy & Merkel signifies, chopped liver ?
There’s the irony, western Europe is pulling away from the (failed) socialist model while Barack & friends are running full tilt to embrace it. (All their measures are, fundamentally, an excuse for expanding government control and “social programs” is merely the excuse)
The heavily rationed “healthcare” industry in Great Britain is running out of (other people’s) money, too, exactly following Ms. Thatcher’s observations on socialism.
Barack doesn’t seem to think much of those those lousy first 10 amendments, which he has referred to as “negative rights”, i.e., ways the federal government is barred from screwing with your liberty. (pesky little thing, the Bill of Rights)
He wants the federal government to provide you “positive rights”, spread the wealth around, free lunches all around, you sitting on your a$$, tee vee clicker in hand, into eternity, waiting for the cheque in the mail.
Aug 15, 2009 - 3:28 pm 69. tanstaafl:It is such incredible BS that if you find severe fault with The One™’s agenda for America, you are ipso facto a racist.
Or, even worse, that if you see that Barack Obama is a narcissistic, self-serving empty suit, the next step must be that you want to do him harm.
I can’t believe the level of abject idiocy in this culture.
Truly, the government schools have achieved their goal and we are swimming in a sea of complete morons.
Aug 15, 2009 - 3:40 pm 70. Moho:Moho, monopolists can use barriers to entry to prevent others from undercutting them and stealing their business. However, that will not save them if the public isn’t interested in buying what they’re selling. You can’t make money as a monopolist in the VHS business anymore because nobody wants a new VHS player.
This is specious reasoning. Monopolies are most likely to develop around services that can’t be duplicated–telecommunications, food, healthcare. The public has no options but to buy these products and if a monopoly or oligarchy develops around them, the public cannot exercise rational choice. This has been the fundamental flaw in free market philosophy for over 100 years, and the reason why there is big government to begin with, as the government has had to intervene repeatedly over the past century to offset the excesses of the free market. Had it not been for the socialist interventions of the thirties and forties throughout the world, the globalized marketplace might have collapsed completely. I don’t claim to have the solution, but preaching a free market panacea to every problem only works on people who have no grasp of history.
Aug 15, 2009 - 3:41 pm 71. Mark "I'm on the Enemies List" Epstein:Moho #61 and #66: I don’t know who Marcus Epstein is, but I find the quote you attribute to me rather amusing. Would you provide a link to the quote? As for the police report in July 2007, I haven’t been near DC since January 2006 (praise God), and only a liberal urbanite (translation: “typical Obama supporter”) would assault a woman in the manner you describe.
Now, returning to your “credible sources,” where were your credible sources shortly after the unemployment figures and foreclosure figures were released? It so happens the articles you reference were published before the “true” economic indicators were released, and it wasn’t just the BBC and WashPo that blew that one. However, it’s fairly typical of the left to continue parading outdated statistics to present as “facts” or make-up the facts and then accuse the opposition of doing such a thing. It’s known as “projection” in the psychoanalytical community, and it’s a portion of the sociopathic pathology. Of course, sociopathic behavior is most notably differentiated from all others noted in the DSM for its “consciencelessness.” Come to think of it, considering the low opinion the left has for pre-born life (only convicted murderers, pedophiles, leftist bombers, etc. engender leftist “concern” for life), maybe sociopathic behavior is inherent to liberalism itself. Who knew?
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:16 pm 72. jharp:Moho:
“Had it not been for the socialist interventions of the thirties and forties throughout the world, the globalized marketplace might have collapsed completely.”
I sure hope our friends here learn that sooner rather than later.
And I think Teddy Roosevelt was awesome. I really do. National Parks.. pretty darn socialist and trust busting.
One cool republican.
“I don’t claim to have the solution, but preaching a free market panacea to every problem only works on people who have no grasp of history.”
And a free market doesn’t work for health insurance. No one wants to insure unhealthy people. Just like 1965 when no one wanted to insure the elderly.
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:19 pm 73. Moho:Mark Epstein, I pity you. You share the same discourse and name as one of the most stupid–by any objective standards–Republican activists in history. Here’s the link you requested:
The article:
http://washingtonindependent.com/45075/tom-tancredo-and-the-n-word
And the actual DC document:
http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/images/Epstein/img072.jpg
As for this, hilarious:
Now, returning to your “credible sources,” where were your credible sources shortly after the unemployment figures and foreclosure figures were released? It so happens the articles you reference were published before the “true” economic indicators were released, and it wasn’t just the BBC and WashPo that blew that one. However, it’s fairly typical of the left to continue parading outdated statistics to present as “facts” or make-up the facts and then accuse the opposition of doing such a thing.
You’ve had two chances to cite your source for your economic figures, and haven’t. You make your namesake look like a genius.
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:44 pm 74. Moho:Sweet pea (Mo-Ho, not Less-Ho) both France & Germany have been moving their economies out of the (longtime stagnating) socialist model.
What do you think the election of conservatives Sarkozy & Merkel signifies, chopped liver ?
And still, the one thing both of those countries won’t touch is their socialist safety net systems, and still, even with their .
France and Germany have also benefited from what economists call automatic stabilisers.
Their social security systems are more generous than the UK’s and this has provided more support to consumers.
It is one of the reasons why they argued they did not need to follow the UK with headline-grabbing measures to stimulate the economy.
But one area of direct intervention does appear to have helped German growth.
Its car scrappage scheme has been credited with turning around the fortunes of its automotive sector. At 5bn euros ($7.1bn; £4.3bn), it was on an entirely different scale to the UK’s £300m scheme….
Served. I’m a bit tired of making you look like an ignorant fool today trampstampfl, though I have to admit its fun. See ya soon….
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:52 pm 75. steveg:Has anyone else noticed that the two leftist trolls (jharp & moho) are always here at the same time?
Aug 15, 2009 - 4:56 pm 76. adam:Of course a genuinely free market can handle insurance. Most people are not born unhealthy–before they become unhealthy, the should be able to purchase insurance against that contingency–for healthy people, it should be pretty cheap. For the people who were born unhealthy, parents could purchase such an insurance for their unborn children–again, it should be pretty cheap. In other words, you would be insuring against the possibility of debilitating, expensive illness, the way we insure against automobile accidents. Risk would be distributed much more widely, which is part of the purpose of insurance. In the end, very few people would be left out. In fact, most of what we have now isn’t really “insurance” in any meaningful sense, because of massive government intervention in the industry.
I’m plagiarizing here, and simplifying–the Power Line blog has a very interesting discussion of this today.
Aug 15, 2009 - 5:10 pm 77. tanstaafl:In essence, Obama and the Democrats are at war with the majority of Americans on a number of “fronts” and it is reasonable to ask if current White House policy is deliberately designed to undermine our constitutional republic.
Indeed.
Come to think of it, considering the low opinion the left has for pre-born life (only convicted murderers, pedophiles, leftist bombers, etc. engender leftist “concern” for life), maybe sociopathic behavior is inherent to liberalism itself. Who knew?
Maybe this guy
Persons plagued with such fears easily conclude that it is in their greatest interest to dominate others, or to imagine that they can, and to set about achieving that goal through the manipulation of government power.
Hmmm, sounds like someone, someone in the news 24/7, relentlessly yakking at us….hmmmm….
Aug 15, 2009 - 5:12 pm 78. tanstaafl:Great questions you ask, Mr. Epstein.
This one, in particular, has been boggling my mind for the duration…
How can you reasonably equate Palestinian terrorists who vow another country’s total destruction and the genocide of its people with the only democracy in the Middle East?
Aug 15, 2009 - 5:37 pm 79. Moho:This one, in particular, has been boggling my mind for the duration
There’s not a lot there to boggle. I would ask why you care either way. There’s nothing in the constitution that mandates us to give 3 billion dollars a year to any country. Talk about tax and spend.
Aug 15, 2009 - 5:58 pm 80. Calvin Ball:I’ve also noticed some other entangled particles here.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:01 pm 81. tanstaafl:I thought you went to bed, Mo-Ho.
Exhausted, defeated et al.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:25 pm 82. KRB:Please read the first 59 pages of HR3200; you don’t have to read all of it to find out that the bill has little to nothing to do with your health or health insurance. It does create an unelected body of bureaucrats, 17 of which are to be appointed by the president and who are not to be considered federal employees. Do you so the logic in calling the years Y1, Y2, Y3? – You only have to get to page 14 for that. If you read the whole thing, you will be shocked at just how insane it is. Arm yourselves with the facts. Really want to stop this thing?- please push to make all govt officials take this plan via HR 615, sponsored by House Rep. Fleming of LA.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:43 pm 83. Moho:Bed? Not everyone goes to bed at seven pm on a Saturday, granpa.
Aug 15, 2009 - 6:47 pm 84. Anonymous:Moho #73 I see that when your initial smear failed to stick, you resort to another classic logical fallacy. In the case at hand, the “guilt by association” fallacy — a pretty standard one in the liberal arsenal (beside the original ad hominem you employed). You know, like calling Bush a Nazi and those who dislike the current health care reform bill Nazis as well (thereby employing both fallacies simultaneously). Even though these Americans were and are objecting to a bill that Obama wanted shoved down our throats without anyone reading it first. Frankly, I don’t think it’s asking too much of our congressional representatives to read the bill they wrote in separate committees before sending it to the president for signature.
So, since you want to go down the logical fallacy path, do similar names equate to the same political thinking in your mind or are you just an anti-Semite in general? If you’re merely uneducated in formal logic and not a race-baiting anti-Semite, how about a discourse on Saddam Hussein and Barack Hussein? I mean, that’s just as close as Mark and Marcus isn’t it? And, no, this is not some tired campaign scare tactic, so you can spare us the diatribe on that issue. It is merely used to underscore the lack of critical thinking you and many liberals employ, including the most senior Democrats in Congress. (Note: I said “many” liberals, not most or all.)
Now, since we’re all still waiting for you to answer my initial question that surfaced before you asked me for sources, how about a little “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”? While we await your answer and since I find the Fifth Aphorism of Pantanjali applicable in nearly all situations, the sources for the unemployment figures and mortgage foreclosures follow. I’ll even throw-in a couple bonus links. There is a link to a San Antonio, Texas, story on schools asking for increased property taxes, which is interesting because San Antonio is probably the least affected city in the entire country with respect to the recession. Yet, as you can see from the story, property is devalued to such a degree or didn’t sufficiently grow in value that five districts need money. The other link is to a story on the City of Chicago closing this coming Monday and employees being forced to take the day off without pay, due to budget issues. So, since both stories are dated today, would you please refresh my memory about the recession being over?
Oh, and before I forget, here’s another bonus “thought of the day” for you: Self-importance is man’s greatest enemy. In other words, unwarranted and condescending arrogance laced with ad hominems is never the hallmark of a critical thinker; it is the refuge of the propagandist who lacks understanding and a valid argument. Therefore, if you cannot make an apologia (argument) without attacking the other person, what you have to say (regardless of its merit) will be lost in the hatefulness of your speech.
Mark
P.S. Here’s the link to the About page on my blog. Yes, I am a single-parent and the judge (a female Democrat on President Obama’s short list for a federal bench) who awarded me custody of my children probably doesn’t share your opinion of me.
Unemployment “Aug 07, 2009 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ —-The federal government reported this morning that the national economy shed 247,000 jobs in July and that the unemployment rate was 9.4%.”
Mortgages (see Thursday under at the link provided) “Meanwhile foreclosures set another record in July, in spite of all the programs the federal and state governments have put in place to prevent them. Home loan failures rose 7% from June, and 32% from the number in July 2008.”
City of Chicago Closes for the Day
San Antonio School Districts
Oh, and let’s not forget today’s bank failures.
And the Number One indicator of a recession’s end? Consumer confidence. “Stocks fall on consumer confidence concerns
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:06 pm 85. Mark "I'm on the Enemies List" Epstein:Stocks remain deep in negative territory in one of the biggest sell offs in the market in some time. The decline is due to concerns about the consumer’s role in the economic recovery. The consumer confidence report came in below expectations raising concerns about the health of the economic recovery. Investors reacted to the report by selling shares. The Dow is down 140 to 9,259, the NASADQ is down 34.50 to 1,975, and the S&P is down 15.50 to 99.50. :theflyonthewall.com”
Moho #73 I see that when your initial smear failed to stick, you resort to another classic logical fallacy. In the case at hand, the “guilt by association” fallacy — a pretty standard one in the liberal arsenal (beside the original ad hominem you employed). You know, like calling Bush a Nazi and those who dislike the current health care reform bill Nazis as well (thereby employing both fallacies simultaneously). Even though these Americans were and are objecting to a bill that Obama wanted shoved down our throats without anyone reading it first. Frankly, I don’t think it’s asking too much of our congressional representatives to read the bill they wrote in separate committees before sending it to the president for signature.
So, since you want to go down the logical fallacy path, do similar names equate to the same political thinking in your mind or are you just an anti-Semite in general? If you’re merely uneducated in formal logic and not a race-baiting anti-Semite, how about a discourse on Saddam Hussein and Barack Hussein? I mean, that’s just as close as Mark and Marcus isn’t it? And, no, this is not some tired campaign scare tactic, so you can spare us the diatribe on that issue. It is merely used to underscore the lack of critical thinking you and many liberals employ, including the most senior Democrats in Congress. (Note: I said “many” liberals, not most or all.)
Now, since we’re all still waiting for you to answer my initial question that surfaced before you asked me for sources, how about a little “what’s good for the goose is good for the gander”? While we await your answer and since I find the Fifth Aphorism of Pantanjali applicable in nearly all situations, the sources for the unemployment figures and mortgage foreclosures follow. I’ll even throw-in a couple bonus links. There is a link to a San Antonio, Texas, story on schools asking for increased property taxes, which is interesting because San Antonio is probably the least affected city in the entire country with respect to the recession. Yet, as you can see from the story, property is devalued to such a degree or didn’t sufficiently grow in value that five districts need money. The other link is to a story on the City of Chicago closing this coming Monday and employees being forced to take the day off without pay, due to budget issues. So, since both stories are dated today, would you please refresh my memory about the recession being over?
Oh, and before I forget, here’s another bonus “thought of the day” for you: Self-importance is man’s greatest enemy. In other words, unwarranted and condescending arrogance laced with ad hominems is never the hallmark of a critical thinker; it is the refuge of the propagandist who lacks understanding and a valid argument. Therefore, if you cannot make an apologia (argument) without attacking the other person, what you have to say (regardless of its merit) will be lost in the hatefulness of your speech.
Mark
P.S. Here’s the link to the About page on my blog. Yes, I am a single-parent and the judge (a female Democrat on President Obama’s short list for a federal bench) who awarded me custody of my children probably doesn’t share your opinion of me.
Unemployment “Aug 07, 2009 /PRNewswire via COMTEX/ —-The federal government reported this morning that the national economy shed 247,000 jobs in July and that the unemployment rate was 9.4%.”
Mortgages (see Thursday under at the link provided) “Meanwhile foreclosures set another record in July, in spite of all the programs the federal and state governments have put in place to prevent them. Home loan failures rose 7% from June, and 32% from the number in July 2008.”
City of Chicago Closes for the Day
San Antonio School Districts
Oh, and let’s not forget today’s bank failures.
And the Number One indicator of a recession’s end? Consumer confidence. “Stocks fall on consumer confidence concerns
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:07 pm 86. jharp:Stocks remain deep in negative territory in one of the biggest sell offs in the market in some time. The decline is due to concerns about the consumer’s role in the economic recovery. The consumer confidence report came in below expectations raising concerns about the health of the economic recovery. Investors reacted to the report by selling shares. The Dow is down 140 to 9,259, the NASADQ is down 34.50 to 1,975, and the S&P is down 15.50 to 99.50. :theflyonthewall.com”
adam:
“Most people are not born unhealthy–before they become unhealthy, the should be able to purchase insurance against that contingency–for healthy people, it should be pretty cheap.”
It’s not. That is the problem. And like you said “most”. What about the others?
“For the people who were born unhealthy, parents could purchase such an insurance for their unborn children–again, it should be pretty cheap.”
Here lies the problem. Do you not understand the concept of pre existing conditions?
Leaving your job to start a new business? Forget about it unless everyone in your family has good health.
Lose your job? Again, you’re uninsurable unless everyone in your family has good health.
And I find it hard to believe that the so called “pro small business” crowd can’t comprehend this.
You are all a bunch of mindless Limabaugh robots.
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:07 pm 87. vivo:17. George S.:
“DO NOT FEED THE TROLL” = censorship
censorship = fear
fear = ignorance
* * *
My comment was deleted last night
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:15 pm 88. tanstaafl:(Obama) took issue with “the notion that somehow I ran for public office or members of Congress are in this so they can go around pulling the plug on grandma.”
Such a complete mis-representation of why Americans have profound issues with his “healthcare” agenda.
Grandma’s been useful to Obama before, the typical white person, as he portrayed her pre-election in order to score some dumb point about race.
Obama’s remarks constitute a complete mis-representation of all the profound objections to Section 1233 of House Resolution 3200.
Does he believe his own words ?
Aug 15, 2009 - 7:16 pm 89. Samizdat:Tanstaafl,Venividvici and others,
No need to engage the Alinskyite trolls. They offer dogma, but little fact.
Some facts for them.
Obamacare has been offered as a cost savings device. In fact, according to the CBO, there are no fiscal savings for the nation if Obamacare is implemented. The principle reason for the plans attractiveness, cost control, is a myth.
Obamacare has been offered as the way to provide health services equally to all, including those who don’t supposedly have health services. In fact, those of us who have excellent health service now lose under Obamacare, there will be many more purchasers seeking services from the same provider pool. This means waiting and lines that don’t exist for the insured now. This fact means that the insured who are paying for services now, will pay more, but recieve less under Obama care. Additionally, 88 million currently insured will lose existing coverage under Obamacare.It is a myth or lie that you can keep what you hav if you like it, you won’t be able to.
Obamacare purports to provide portability in existing private insurance. However, its rules provide for a phase out of coverage if one changes jobs as the rules drive those insured into the government option via taxes on the employer and the employee. The offered plan must comport with government mandate or employer and employee can be taxed. Private insurance becomes less attractive, less portable, and more expensive under Obamacare.
This plan makes sense to state centric personalities. These are the same people who tend to believe that Medicare is solvent, that Social Security is solvent, that the post office is making money and that the government is a wealth creator, not wealth destroyer.
Each and every day, more American’s are figuring out that Obamacare’s purported benefits are as incredible as they are ephemeral.
Aug 15, 2009 - 8:18 pm 90. adam:“86. jharp:
adam:
“Most people are not born unhealthy–before they become unhealthy, the should be able to purchase insurance against that contingency–for healthy people, it should be pretty cheap.”
It’s not. That is the problem. And like you said “most”. What about the others?
“For the people who were born unhealthy, parents could purchase such an insurance for their unborn children–again, it should be pretty cheap.”
Here lies the problem. Do you not understand the concept of pre existing conditions?
Leaving your job to start a new business? Forget about it unless everyone in your family has good health.
Lose your job? Again, you’re uninsurable unless everyone in your family has good health.
And I find it hard to believe that the so called “pro small business” crowd can’t comprehend this.
You are all a bunch of mindless Limabaugh robots.”
You’re missing the point–this would be another kind of insurance, which people could routinely purchase before the got sick. At some point we will all die, at some point we are all likely to have serious health concerns. You can buy life insurance at a very affordable rate when you are 30 and healthy, though, because the insurance company can assume that you will be paying more in premiums over the next 30 years or so than they will have to pay if you die unexpectedly. Obviously, if you buy it at 50, the calculation is different. So, we need need an equivalent kind of insurance indemnifying us against expensive health problems down the road. On Power Line, they link to a column by John Cochrane in the WSJ, arguing for “insurance against uninsurability”–essentially, you pay now for the the right to buy actual health insurance at a later date at a set rate. Like life insurance, you may never need it, and the insurance companies would do the same kinds of calculations. This kind of insurance against uninsurability could be purchased while young and it would be personally owed, and therefore portable. So, all those people, the vast majority, who spend a good part of their younger years healthy, could buy this, and hold onto it. As I suggested in my previous comment, the principle could be extended to parents purchasing such insurance for their babies. This should be even cheaper, since babies are even more likely to be healthy than 30 year olds. In other words, it would become the norm, once the insurance industry was deregulated, the government got out of it, and new, varied and creative types of insurance emerge. So, this deals with the issue of pre-existing conditions–there is always a time that pre-exists the pre-existing conditions. The title of Cochrane’s article is “what to do About Pre-existing Conditions”–http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203609204574316172512242220.html) And, equally obviously, this is dependent upon de-linking health insurance from employment and making it something individuals buy on their own–the first step towards serious reform, at any rate.
Now, of course there will still be a few left out–people who are too irresponsible to buy it; parents who have a very high likelihood of having a baby with derious birth defects, healthy people who a genetic screening disclose are especially likely to develop health problems down the road, etc. OK–once we’ve narrowed it down to such difficulties, we can talk about possible solutions. My preference would be for charity to kick in, but I imagine most people would be OK with the ogvernment subsidizing such extreme cases (expect maybe for the irresponsible ones).
Did Limbaugh talk about this approach? Wow–if so, my admiration for him just went up a notch.
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:10 pm 91. fireyourguns:Samizdat:
“I look forward to vigorous debate with people who are in touch with the real world even if I disagree with them.”
jtwerp:
Does this include those who spread the lies of death panels to scare the hell out of the elderly?
guns: “death panel” or “end of life”, phrase it however you’d like jtwerp… it’s gone, sort of like your Marxist friends will be in the upcoming conservative tsunami, more commonly known as “the mid-terms”!
http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/finance-committee-to-drop-end-of-life-provision-2009-08-13.html
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:27 pm 92. vivo:89. Samizdat:
“No need to engage the Alinskyite trolls. They offer dogma, but little fact.
Some facts for them.
Obamacare has been offered as a cost savings device. In fact, according to the CBO, there are no fiscal savings for the nation if Obamacare is implemented. The principle (sic) reason for the plans attractiveness, cost control, is a myth.”
Is this your FACT? Cost control is a myth? Why is it a myth?
Bulk buying and price negotiating of medications is a myth? Rejecting unnecessary practices is a myth? Lowering insurance rates is a myth?
“In fact, those of us who have excellent health service now lose under Obamacare, there will be many more purchasers seeking services from the same provider pool. This means waiting and lines that don’t exist for the insured now.”
What a fact! Many people are already insured but are paying a high price. Who says YOUR doctors will be swamped with new patients? Where do you live? And if it’s the case, whose fault is it? Why don’t we have more doctors and nurses? Why most of the doctors in urban areas are foreigners? Are you so egocentric that you want to restrict other people’s right to health care?
“Additionally, 88 million currently insured will lose existing coverage under Obamacare.It is a myth or lie that you can keep what you hav if you like it, you won’t be able to.”
Another fantabulous fact! You can keep your coverage. Only if you think the public option is BETTER then you would switch (preexisting conditions accepted!). But you don’t have to switch. Read the facts, plase.
“Private insurance becomes less attractive, less portable, and more expensive under Obamacare.”
This is where the insurers and employers have to make some decisions about improving their product, it’s the old American standby called competition (and don’t tell me that the govt will be unfair).
“These are the same people who tend to believe that Medicare is solvent, that Social Security is solvent, that the post office is making money”
Medicare and SS are currently solvent, but not if the onerous practices of insurers, drug makers and greedy doctors continue. Everybody knows the PO is not making money as Fedex or UPS.
Your facts are so wonderful it makes me feel ecstatic!!
Aug 15, 2009 - 10:36 pm 93. Moogie:Dear Pajamas Comment Moderators:
How about deleting every comment made where the word “teabaggers” is used? That sure would be nice, since you are supposed to be … uh … moderating this stuff!
Start with jharp. That his offensive tripe even gets approved is complete and total bullshite.
Moogie has had it up to here with these useless moronic idiots invading our forums. PJ had better start filtering this crap, or Moogie is going to split and not come back.
Sincerely,
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:14 pm 94. Moho:Moogie
Mark, apologies. I thought you were only pretending to be dumb. I asked you to present citations for your claim that:
“mainstream media’s reporting on the economic revival of France and Germany, but the actual economic indicators in both countries, as well as those of those claiming the recession is over in the US, are actually quite different.”
I never claimed that the recession was over in the US, nor do I believe it is. Well, I’m still waiting for it and I’m pretty sure you’re not going to provide it. You people are full of crap. I’m literally the only person here who ever provides any backing for their assertions, including the writers. Pitiful.
Aug 15, 2009 - 11:44 pm 95. mike in atl.:I need a lot more freedom,and a lot less goverment . Like i said , SARAH is coming. Like a thunderbolt out of the blue. goodnight
Aug 16, 2009 - 12:07 am 96. vivo:93. Moogie:
Dear Pajamas Comment Moderators:
censorship = fear
fear = ignorance
Aug 16, 2009 - 3:07 am 97. Anonymous:Moho #94Apology accepted. The link below is probably what you’re looking for regarding European economic recovery, which includes France and Germany. Regardless of “rosier than expected” GDP numbers in the two countries you cited, they are both part of the EU. In other words, to site “rosier than expected” numbers in those two countries as an indication the recession is over is analogous to using “rosier than expected” numbers in Texas (Germany) and Iowa (France) as an indicator the recession is over in the US. Both France and Germany, due to their membership in the EU, are dependent upon the union’s full recovery to actually recover themselves. Now, I will grant that Germany is a strong economic leader within the EU, but Germany cannot pull Europe out of the recession by itself. Moreover, to infer Germany’s and France’s socialist policies and “big government” is the reason these two have better GDP figures is disingenuous, because it doesn’t begin to address the individual reasons both countries did a little better. Keep in mind that the USSR (by its own admission) didn’t collapse because of its fear of President Reagan’s stationing Patriot 2 missiles in the former West Germany, it collapsed because capitalism forced the Soviets to spend itself into the ground. The US can accomplish the same thing with the terrorist countries in the Middle East and Southwest Asia, despite their oil reserves. However, it’s a matter of the “will” to do so. Currently, both US political parties are unwilling to deal with our country’s addiction to foreign oil and illegal drugs, the latter being the economic basis for exported terrorism. US capitalism, not socialism, can provide a better standard of living — including the needed reforms to health care, without debt if the country will develop the “will” to economically strangle its enemies to the point the people rise-up against its own leadership. In a globalized economy, one can never refuse to accept other political factors inherent to a “clash of civilizations” and, unlike our liberal brothers, American conservatives recognize that not all political systems are equal. The despotism and tyranny inside those countries exporting terrorism have some of the poorest people on the planet who have no health care or basic needs being met. Meantime, America (and Europe) suffer needless economic hardship because neither of the two is able to wean itself from the foreign-oil teat. And, yes, I am advocating using economics as a weapon to force revolution inside terrorist regimes, because ultimately their people and our people will be better off and the modest reforms America needs to its health care system will be far less expensive than what’s currently on the table in our own country. Ah, but to achieve this goal, there’s a whole lot of “touchy-feely” folks that need to man up first.
European recession over? Far from it
Aug 16, 2009 - 4:58 am 98. adam:“93. Moogie:
Dear Pajamas Comment Moderators:
How about deleting every comment made where the word “teabaggers” is used? That sure would be nice, since you are supposed to be … uh … moderating this stuff!
Start with jharp. That his offensive tripe even gets approved is complete and total bullshite.
Moogie has had it up to here with these useless moronic idiots invading our forums. PJ had better start filtering this crap, or Moogie is going to split and not come back.
Sincerely,
Moogie”
I’m very glad to see someone else would like to see the word “teabaggers” proscribed–conservative websites should absolutely forbid the term, and everytime it is used elsewhere (say on a TV network) we should challenge it forcefully. There’s no reason for us to cooperate in the Left’s continual debasement of public discourse, this time through the introduction of overtly pornographic terms to smear their opponents. The idiot Left (but I repeat myself) will cry “censorship” but let them explain exactly which “ideas” or “knowledge” are being “censored” (we should insist, in more public fora, that anyone who uses the word explain its precise meaning). All blogs and websites are privately owned, and it’s the obligation of their owners to establish rules for civility. I’ve said this several times: the test can be, could you explain the meaning of this word comfortably to your teenager? If not, it has no place here. And feel free to err on the side of those who are uncomfortable discussing exotic sexual practices with their children.
Aug 16, 2009 - 5:08 am 99. Samizdat:Pajamas is a private website and it can publish as it see’s fit. I encourage it to continue to publish all comments that fit its criteria posted at the beginning of the comments section.
I have stopped reading the comments of certain individuals as they just don’t offer honesty and fact. Reading them is a waste of my time. This is not censorship as I know someone will hysterically hyperventilate. It’s DISCRIMINATION, an old and time honored pricipal of freemarket societies where a purchaser decides what he will and won’t buy.
There are a number of brand name publications I have chosen to discriminate against. I no longer buy them or read them. I am not alone for many other people have made the same decision and several of these former bastions of journalism are in deep financial trouble. That result is the inevitable consequence of publishing garbage, intelligent people find other things to read.
George at 17 is right; after reading their poorly reasoned, non factual prose for months, I have decided to discriminate against certain commentators and stop “buying” what they publish.
I request that Venividivici, Tanstaafl and the other learned conservative commentators disengage these ill informed individuals. I expect they will continue to publish and I defend their 1st Amendment right to do so, I just ain’t bothering with actually reading their detritus.
The effect of discrimination strikes directly at the value of the thing discriminated against. Say enough foolish, unsupportable things and you are subject to discrimination in the marketplace of ideas. People should think about this concept before they spew oppinion devoid of fact or pregnant with fraud.
Right on George! Don’t feed the trolls!
Aug 16, 2009 - 5:19 am 100. Jeff Weimer:Vivo:
“DO NOT FEED THE TROLL” = censorship
No, it’s not. You could still say what you want (within the guidelines, of course), but you don’t need to be acknowledged.
Also, this is a private organization, they they very clearly reserve the right to allow or deny anything said here. True censorship is when the Government does it.
Aug 16, 2009 - 8:12 am 101. venividivici:63
What is that vision in your own words? I doubt they won a Nobel prize for looking something up in a dictionary and writing a paragraph about it. What is it about their vision of the free market that proves its superior. You’re appealing to authority here–their nobel prizes–to prove that free market philosophy is superior, but you haven’t drawn any line between them and the free market. Thus, it is just what it seems to be–a dishonest rhetorical device usually used by people who have a shaky grasp of the subject matter. Come on, dude.
As for your other appeal to authority–your claim of having been in all those board rooms–you’ll forgive me if I take that assertion with a few grains of salt given that we’re both anonymous here; and you and others should thank me for not throwing out a similar and useless piece of bs. If what you say is true, then I wonder what all those industrial associations and lobbying groups are doing up in Washington.
I’m not really interested in how or whether you take my assertions with anything. The comments policy precludes me from saying any more on that topic. You were the one saying that companies get together to collude (which is NOT the same thing as lobbying, so implying that the existence of lobbyists in DC necessarily means that there is illegal collusion happening on a regular basis is definitely a logical leap that isn’t justifiable except to the extent that you let your bias drive your conclusion). I presented cases where I was in situations where there was clear motive (hey, business is tough) and opportunity (all the key decision-makers are in the room in a private setting) and never saw any evidence of even a hint that any of these companies (all of whom are household names) would collude with their competitors. The entire discussion was always around how the company could improve across a variety of factors (cost, product, service, human capital, acquisitions), with nary a peep of anything even suggesting what you say is a common practice.
Why would I need to “draw a line” between the intellectual constructs of people modeling what an optimal economic policy would be and free markets when they are one and the same? It’s a stupid request. Free markets are superior in every way (growth, productivity, enhanced living standards, innovation), so if you want to pick an economic category and compare side-by-side a free market policy to a command-and-control policy, feel free. It’s like asking me to prove that not being tortured is better than being tortured. If you haven’t figured it out for yourself, nothing I can say in the span of a comment on a blog is going to help you.
No one can stop you from remaining behind the curve in the realm of economic theory (as Keynes once said, all demagogues are in thrall to some dead economist), but your ignorance isn’t really my problem.
Aug 16, 2009 - 8:29 am 102. venividivici:60
You an an an imbecile if you believe openly discussing the strategy of committing a crime would be openly discussed at a board meeting.
So, I guess the boards would have super-duper-extra-top-secret-cloak-and-dagger meetings to discuss that?
Thanks for clearing that up, although I do think that I should go back to some of those companies and tell them they can save millions of dollars just by NOT hiring people like myself to help them prepare for the “useless” board meetings they have now.
Discussing this with you is like discussing whether or not the Jews run the world with a man who’s only two frames of reference are “Mein Kampf” and “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.
You have got to be, by far, the best proof against Darwinian evolution in the history of the planet. Congratulations, I guess.
Aug 16, 2009 - 8:34 am 103. venividivici:90
Thanks for the link to the Cochrane piece. Another brilliant example of the University of Chicago style of thinking about these very complex issues, as opposed to the simplistic one-size-fits-all socialist mentality.
Aug 16, 2009 - 9:24 am 104. vivo:99. Samizdat:
“Pajamas is a private website and it can publish as it see’s (sic) fit.”
You are so confused as usual. If this was a private site you would need a password to get in. If everyone can see it, it’s not private.
It’s true that they can publish as they can see it fit, but if they erase perfectly decent postings it’s true censorship and it reflects on the close-mindedness of its members
censorship = fear
fear = ignorance
100. Jeff Weimer:
“this is a private organization, they they very clearly reserve the right to allow or deny anything said here. True censorship is when the Government does it.”
Yes, they reserve the right to erase the truth that unmask their wrong thinking. This is ‘true censorship’ no matter how you look at it.
censorship = fear
fear = ignorance
Aug 16, 2009 - 2:57 pm 105. adam:I’m curious as to what they are erasing, but since plenty of diatribes filled with talking points, specific references and efforts at rebuttal and links have been getting through, I suspect there was something more to it. (If they were so terrified of the truth, whay are they letting your “protest” comments through?) At any rate, they have, as you concede, every right to do so. Ask politely for a reason, if you don’t get one, and you still want to mpost, figure out what they let through–obviously they’re not excluding everything critical of the post, so there must be another crite4rion.
And #103, you’re very welcome–I’ve benefited from your comments so I’m glad to repay you a little. Cochran’s piece is an example of how much market based thinking allows for intellectual creativity in solving political problems.
Aug 16, 2009 - 3:41 pm 106. Moho:Venil–>Why would I need to “draw a line” between the intellectual constructs of people modeling what an optimal economic policy would be and free markets when they are one and the same?
Because you didn’t prove that they support your conception of a free market–that is, what you claim is a free market is not necessarily what your appeal to authority says it is. Just as one person’s socialism is another’s communism. You haven’t been specific enough to demonstrate that you actually know what you’re talking about. And come on, you didn’t present ANY CASES where you were in a board room where important conversations were being had. That has to be the most pathetic disinformatory technique a log-on can commit. As for being prevented from discussing the issues by the policies here–well, whatever you need to get through the night. Bottom line: you claim that nobel prize winners back YOUR conception of a free market, but you WON’T say how. You lost this argument because you provided no evidence to back up your claim; the same way you’ve lost every one of our arguments because you simply don’t know what you’re talking about. Done and done.
Aug 16, 2009 - 6:32 pm 107. Moho:Free marketplace of ideas. Please explain to me how there is literally a new story about Israel every day, and that none of them ever get more than 12 comments. If there was anything like a classic liberal model of media going on at Pajamas Media, the first thing to go would be these unpopular pro-Israel pieces.
Aug 16, 2009 - 7:04 pm 108. HawkWatcher:I won’t let this post die this way…
How does calling politically active conservatives “teabaggers” unmask their wrong thinking? What truth would be erased if PJ censored virulent posts that offer nothing else of value? Vivo personifies the definition of saphead. Let’s look at some American truths.
Big centralized government is the enemy of liberty; the founders knew this, I know it, the writer of the article knows it…why would anyone in their right mind support more crushing federal power upon their lives and livelyhood?
Why do libs fear and hate the Constitution and free enterprise? Why are they so willing to surrender their liberty, and mine? It’s our Constitutional duty to defeat the enemies of freedom, and the leftists who control Washington are clearly the targets.
No wonder the liberal trolls hate us…we are successfully going about the business of fighting irresponsible federal largesse, while encouraging individual responsibility and limited government.
This is terrifying to the ignorant people who want more “freebies”, so the vitriol flows in absense of any supportive arguments for big government; “fear=ignorance” indeed.
There are many weaklings that need to be weeded out of the political arena. If thousands of us keep throwing $20 here and there to elect more conservatives, we will prevail. Netroots is dying, while we grow in numbers and $ support.
Aug 16, 2009 - 7:22 pm 109. vivo:108. HawkWatcher:
“Vivo personifies the definition of saphead.”
You’ve got it all wrong. Since this post is dyibg, I will not elaborate.
The following refers to my posts being deleted here because the authors can’t stand the truth.
censorship = fear
fear = ignorance
Aug 16, 2009 - 9:51 pm 110. Moho:Hawkwatcher…I’m pretty sure you have no idea what’s in the constitution…
Article 1, Section 2: Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states which may be included within this union, according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons.
I suppose you blank this part out of your little head when you harken back to the constitution. It was a guide, and it was ammended 27 times. You have no idea what you’re talking about when you talk about the constitution; you’re just parroting things that other people have told you to say to cover up your blind and directionless rage.
Aug 16, 2009 - 11:03 pm 111. Brian:Anyone willing the put healthcare in the hands of that lying hypocritical Pelosi and her ilk are simply suicidal!
I love the Obama brought brought up UPS, Fed Ex and the USPS to make his point for government run healthcare! Nothing could highlight the dangers bigger!
Aug 17, 2009 - 4:50 am 112. Brian:“and it was ammended 27 times”
Do you even know what the amendments were? The first 10 were the bill of rights and were envisioned and the conception of the Constitution…. but even these simple ideals took time to consider… Obama wants Congress to put a 1000 page Healthcare bill through in a few months? That is beyond insane!
Aug 17, 2009 - 4:55 am 113. Moho:Not to mention Unconstitutional!
Yeah, and the next 17 were to undo the parts about the constitution that had no bearing on issues decades and even centuries after the writing of that document.
And Brian, how is passing a bill unconstitutional? Is there something in the constitution that mandates the amount of time that a bill needs to be considered.
Your protests may have something to do with your level of education or interest in academic pursuits. When I was in college, I easily read two thousand pages and was tested on the content every 12 weeks. No one’s asking you to do that, their asking your representatives. Or do you now need to read every bill yourself? What about the legislation that got us into Iraq–that was a pretty big deal, I bet you were up all night readingt that one too.
Aug 17, 2009 - 7:33 am 114. Brian:“No one’s asking you to do that, their asking your representatives.”
You mean the same representatives who stated they didn’t have time to read the 1000+ page cap and trade bill?
There is nothing unconstitutional about passing a bill… It’s what is contained in the bill… the constitution is very clear about the role of the federal government everything not defined is left to the states… I looked for healthcare and social security in the constitution…. couldnt find it. What article is that under oh uber educated one Moho?
Aug 17, 2009 - 9:59 am 115. Norris Hall:Oh by the way, since you are super educated and highly intelligent, are you STILL after 3 weeks trying to figure out if terrorists are covered under the geneva convention?…
The author quotes a poll that says 89% of americans are satisfied with their health care.
Problem is the same poll shows that the majority of Americans favor a universal health care option run by the government
Here’s the entire poll
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2006-10-15-health-poll1.htm
Before you go extracting numbers that support your view , you need to reference the source.
Aug 17, 2009 - 8:00 pm 116. Brian:People get a totally different idea if they read the whole poll
A poll from 2006? 3 years old?? And you are using this to support what? A 3 year old poll is beyond worthless
Aug 18, 2009 - 4:53 am 117. Brian:Here is a more recent zogby poll and it supports the 80+ percent claim made in article.
http://www.zogby.com/News/ReadNews.cfm?ID=1722
Aug 18, 2009 - 4:59 am