Sorry, I’m honestly not familiar with Dr Level. Googled it up and got a general idea but that’s it.

The notion that the serpent is anything but a serpent is insulting to the text and its authorship. It ascribes facts, characters and elaborate subtext nowhere discernible in the source text.

I have read the major sermons of Jonathan Edwards and I have read Dante’s inferno along with Bugakov’s Master and Margarita. Hell and the Devil are core Christian belief and they’re a part of our culture.

We Jews believe in neither. Neither appears in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. Nor do we believe in heaven.

Heaven appears in Genesis, of course. The word is “sh’maim,” a composite word meaning, “of water.” The word “Maim’ or “water” is itself the composite ‘M’Yam’ or “of the sea.”

Yam is the name of a pre-Abrahamic “Pagan” sea-god. How does this stack up to your notion of “heaven,” I can’t help but wonder?

You can see the obvious sexual imagery in the narrative of Eve and the Serpent just as artists always have.

The snake is phallic and beguiling, the fruit he offers Eve contains sexual knowledge that shared with Adam will mean the loss of innocence and the assumption of mortality and mortal burdens.

But soap operas in heaven with fallen angels bent upon evil is extra-textual and foreign.

I don’t want to hit this too hard, Leatherneck, it’s your faith not mine. But St. Paul’s mouth would drop at some of your ideas.

Moogie:

I respectfully disagree. The dvinity in the Torah is a moral divinity and his divine commandments are a guide for human conduct.

The Bible is a history of a people and the conduct of this people’s ancestors, good and bad. Studying their conduct enlightens and improves us and informs our quest for righteousness toward our fellow man. The Almighty barely enters into it.

Such is traditional Jewish belief. I suspect most Christians would be amazed how rarely the Creator is mentioned in rabbis’ sermons or in freewheeling discussion by Jews at Bible study. The focus is on man and man’s conduct.

Theology, or the study of God’s nature, so central to Christian scholarship, is virtually unknown among Jews save for some obscurantist scribbling by a few rabbis during the Middle Ages. To the Jews, the Creator isn’t triune and his nature doesn’t require elaborate definition.

I don’t have any religious icons, although I will admit that I don’t set a drink on the Good Book or use it as a door stop. I didn’t take your comments as flippant, or blasphemous, only oddly curious. I think you pointed out the very thing that is fascinating about these ancient peoples, that they managed to seek and find grace and a path to redemption in the primitive world where human sacrifice to gods was expected, and cruelty to others was common.

I sense our conversation will go no further, so I will end by saying I wish you well.

More importantly, God uses the OT and the Torah to point us toward the coming Messiah through the use of His prophets.

By the way, I find it interesting that this is article was written by a man named David, about a Biblical figure named David, and that the first few comments (three of them) were contributed by guys named David.

It is not I who state what the serpent is, but Dr. level reports on the subject. What does your reading, and understanding of same inform yourself of this subject?

Have a good evening.

You’re right. I was playing dumb and it is insulting. Apologies.

I have no intention of attacking your faith, but there is an ur document. The Hebrew text the Jews revere as the Torah.

There is a limit to which an exegete can stretch the plain text of this ur document. A nakhash is a serpent and the serpent beguiles Eve. You are insisting that the serpent is a fallen angel called Lucifer or morning star and is part of a great roiling struggle in heaven.

Imagine someone reading Moby Dick and insisting this white whale is really an alien from a planet of giant swimmers once beloved now cast out by the council of behemoths. A legitimate reading of Melville’s text?

JFM: There are many Christian influences, subtle and overt, in modern Judaism. Some are purely religious fashion. Others are genuinely worthwhile worthwhile and merit of grateful emulation. Others are less so. But their sum is negligible by comparison to Judaism’s contributions to Christianity.

As for hostility, it wasn’t intended. I write assertively and I’m plain arrogant at times, but anybody who genuinely cares about Biblical text, Christian or Jew, has my affection.

Lynn: Your defense of Biblical heroes and heroines is touching. Believe me, I love them and I love text. I’m being flip and blasphemous, but they were real people living primitive lives in primitive times. True blasphemy, indeed heresy, is to iconicise them. The Bible doesn’t glow nor do they.

Isaac is a dummy. Because he was fooled by Rebekah and Jacob? He was old by that time with dim eyes, and he trusted. To me that is not dumb.

Jacob is a crook. Do you say that because of his brother? Esau did not find value in his blessing to come and gave it to Jacob as a price for food. Did you mean ‘deceitful’ because of he and Rebekah with his father and her husband?

Perhaps you daughter can better answer my questions about Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Isaac, and Jacob.

I would also like to say that it might be more accurate to say that the ROOT of Christianity is Judaism implying something still living. This would of course be a good thing for Judaism since a healthy branch would be indicative of a healthy root system. That would be a good thing for both faiths.

It is highly probable however that Christianity influenced Judaism. An example is poligamy who FAIAK wasn’t officially banned in Judaism until somewhere between 800 and 1200 AD (don’t remember). From some statements from Jewish leaders to Christian authorities it looks like part of the reason was an attempt to better integrate in christian societies/defuse christain hostility to it.

From what I have read, the serpent/Lucifer/Satan/the Devil was created as the most beautiful, and smartest of all Angels. The morning star. From what I have read, Lucifer was not happy with G-d’s idea to make man from the soil in G-d’s image, and give him control of the earth. Plus, G-d gave Satan an order to go show respect to Adam.

Satan is listed as god,(a false god), of this world system, because Eve was tempted to eat of the tree of knowledge, and Adam ate also. Lucifer’s pride caused him to lie to Eve.

Adam did not want to lose Eve, so he sinned, ate the fruit, and died in Spirit, but not a physical death at that time. G-d needs a perfect sin offering, but gave Adam and Eve grace for Adam’s dying for his fellow human.

Satan became the defacto ruler through lies, and hate, and was cursed. Later, we see the sons of G-d, (fallen Angels), changing the DNA of mankind,(giants), so the Word can not come into the world.

Then Noah.

Then back to the Golith,(giant), story above.

As you know, within Christianty Christ won the title of this world back from Satan, by his sinless blood on the cross. For us, Christ rose from the dead, and sits on the right hand of G-d the Father.

Jews await the coming of Christ with power to rule the world. Christians await the second coming of Christ to rule with power, as he has earned the title of this world back from the Serpent.

I realize you already understand what I have written, and I am not writting anything you do not already know.

Good luck to you, and have a great evening. I have enjoyed reading your posts.