MSM Silent on Discovery of Planned Honduras Vote Fraud
When it comes to reporting on the nefarious goings-on throughout the world, the mainstream media can be quite selective.
When the perpetrators are individuals or groups who they deem to be less than agreeable, the media will leave no stone unturned in their quest to expose those behind the injustice. However, when someone with whom they share an ideological point of view commits the wicked act, they become the equivalent of the three wise monkeys from the Japanese maxim — they see no evil, they hear no evil, and in the case of the media, they report no evil.
Last Friday, July 17, the Honduran newspaper La Tribuna published a story detailing the Honduran government’s seizure of 45 government-owned computers found hidden in a building adjacent to the presidential palace formally occupied by the deposed President Manuel “Mel” Zelaya. According to the Honduran authorities these computers contained the results of the referendum Zelaya was fervently trying to push through. When the authorities examined those results, they found that the Honduran people had overwhelmingly voted in favor of having a constitutional convention.
This would open the door and allow Zelaya to change the constitution, removing the one-term limit on presidents strictly stipulated by the document. It is similar to what his friend and mentor, Hugo Chavez, did in Venezuela, and Zelaya figured it would work for him, too.
The only problem with these results was that the plebiscite vote never took place.
On the day Zelaya and his supporters were planning to conduct the referendum, he was arrested in the early morning hours and flown to exile in Costa Rica. The voting results found on those computers were all contrived to indicate a predetermined outcome. Considering the extremely volatile situation in Honduras, the news of this alleged fraud, if found to be true, would change the entire dynamic of this crisis. However, all throughout Friday and later into the weekend, even though various Spanish-language news outlets in Nicaragua, Argentina, and Spain had reported on this very significant development, there was no mention of it at all by the English-speaking mainstream media.
The following Saturday morning I posted a story about the breaking news on Babalu Blog, translating a portion of the article published by EuropaPress in Spanish and providing links to the article in La Tribuna and other Spanish sources. By Saturday afternoon several major news blogs were linking to my post, and by Sunday night more news-related blogs had picked up on the story. The news of apparent massive voter fraud perpetrated by Zelaya and his cronies was circling the globe.
Alberto de la Cruz blogs at Babalu Blog.
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What you need to understand is that they in the US media couldn’t care less about Honduras. But their messiah-in-chief has committed himself to Zelaya, so this is now about him, and his credibility. Thus the “coup” talking point.
Honduras is just a banana republic, as far as they’re concerned. And they’re behaving like the US is one.
Has ACORN gone international? Perhaps sharing ACORN is part of Obama’s foreign aid package?
Perhaps the MSM is not reporting this story because it doesn’t want to give us here in the U.S. any ideas about how we might detect and handle a similar situation that could very easily happen here under the reign of Obama& Co.and ACORN.
You forget, Che Guevara T Shirts are hip. Therefore…this didn’t happen.
its because the mainstream media didn’t learn to read another language. che sucks
TO: Strawman, et al.
RE: Another Aspect….
….of why the so-called MSM isn’t talking about it could be that the same damn thing is happening amongst US already.
My county, apparently, does some rather interesting things regarding counting ballots. It’s run by Democrats.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....and we could be another Honduras and not realize it yet.....]
You’re right Bill. Idiots have been wearing Che shirts for a while now, but even those will go out of style. This generation needs its own anti-Western heroes like Chavez, Ortega, Bin Laden, Ahmadinejad, etc, because fashion is cyclical and being unfashionable/non-metrosexual is akin to being a red-state, homophobic, racist, sexist redneck.
Chuck, you are 100% correct I fear, and have since O was preordained as the savior of America.
The King is dead, long live the King.
Mr. de la Cruz:
This should not at all surprise you.
About 20 years ago, the people of Nicaragua, in an internationally-observed election voted to oust Daniel Ortega and his Marxist Sandinista thugs.
For the next nearly two decades, until Ortega v.2.0 resurfaced, you never heard a peep from our MSM about Nicaragua…it was as though that nation had fallen off the face of the Earth.
Winston Smith, please call your office.
Did Zelaya use the same computer programer that Chavez use? That Obama intends to use? And,as I keep repeating myself,the former mainstream media.
BRO (Banana Republic Obama) and his Marxist blood-brothers are going to put Zelaya back in power by hook,crook or rebellion. Laws or bodies be damned.
Did Zelaya use the same computer programer that Chavez use? That Obama intends to use? And,as I keep repeating myself,the “former” mainstream media.
BRO (Banana Republic Obama) and his Marxist blood-brothers are going to put Zelaya back in power by hook,crook or rebellion. Laws or bodies be damned.
There are two aspects to this story which might be relevant.
1. Stories such as this are too easily fabricated. In a more primitive but sensationalized form, we might hear about a newly-discovered room in Zelaya’s basement where he strangles small animals for fun. Or puts puppies in blenders. Whatever. There’s no way that we, three thousand miles away, can tell if stories of such villany are true or not. I couldn’t give such stories much weight if they came from Zalaya or his buddy Chavez – I’d assume them to be rather obvious propaganda – and I can’t give them much weight if they come from anyone else, either.
2. This attempted fraud, even if true, isn’t very important. Zelaya should go and stay gone, whether he was involved in a blatant fraud or was merely violating the Honduran constitution. The story isn’t a game-changer; we can be fairly certain that the miscreant is guilty already of enough nefarious actions to justify his exile.
When has flimsiness of evidence ever restrained the MSM?
See: Palin, S; 100+ false and generally trivial rumors reported as incredibly important fact by MSM*.
________________
*For the latest, see: OMG; she’s losing hair!!!11. Except her hairdresser says it’s, like all other rumors/important news stories, completely false.
Well we can all link on this and other sites to this article as well as the link provided in the above article. Looks like all these seized computers were GIGO (garbage in garbage out). Imagine a predetermined election result, most likely the way these machine were set up it would not have mattered how you voted it would not have registered a no vote and since they already had the outcome desired a yes vote probably wouldn’t have tallied up either.
TO: Steve, et al.
RE: I Say….
…back to paper ballots at polling places only and photo ID required to step into the boot.
There’s too much opportunity for voting fraud the way things are today.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Vote for Chthulu! Why settle for the lesser evil?]
Tom “not so” Swift in this case. Well, any story, not just “stories such as this” can be fabricated. However, “truth” is what these “journalists” are supposed to be ferreting out, instead of covering up.
“Nicaragua’s President Daniel Ortega announced Sunday….that he would seek a referendum to change the constitution to allow him to seek reelection.” Real Clear World, July 20, 2009
It seems that tiny Honduras is standing in the way of the plans of the leftist dictators. What a suprise.
I don’t know if Obama and Hillary knows or cares that several hundred if not several thousand U.S. citizens live in Honduras. My wife and i have an orphanage here. One of our older children asked, “what will happen to us, if you flee the country?” She was told, “don’t worry, we are not going anywhere.” I asked my wife, if she would like to go the U.S, and take our two children. I will stay here with the orphans until this is over? She said, “we will stay with you, if you stay-we stay.”
We and other U. S. citizens are in the line of fire. I just have one message for any foreign soldier, don’t attempt to pass through our front gate, harm any of my family, or any of our 44 Honduran children.
I pray that the legal government of Honduras continues to stand strong against the forces of tyranny, even if it costs my life.
bobbyhonduras@yahoo.com
TO: Thomas L……, et al.
RE: Indeed
Journalists should be expected to report such. However, maybe that’s why they call themselves “Journalists” instead of “Reporters”.
A journalist can be a propagandist at heart. A reporter couldn’t be such.
And that’s what we’ve got with US today…..’propagandists’. Not reporters……
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....and 'journalists' are going to be 'exposed'.....]
Honduras PUNISHED for Being ANTI-COMMUNIST. Israel PUNISHED for Being JEWISH.
It is most ominous that the U.S. and the nations, are condemning and punishing the peaceful, freedom-loving people of Honduras for their refusal to accept communism. Honduras, NEVER give up the fight for freedom!
Is this hostile act against tiny, courageous Honduras a prelude of what is planned for America and the nations? Is it planned that America and the nations will become communist?
The DEATH of FREEDOM: Obama’s Civilian National Security Force
Obama promised change. The End of America as we know it:
Obama: “We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives we’ve set. We’ve got to have a civilian national security force that’s just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwaAVJITx1Y
GLOBAL JIHAD’S BIGGEST VICTORY – Non Muslim nations, US/EU teamed up with Islamic nations – demand vulnerable little Israel surrender half her Holy Land to Muslims bent on Jewish genocide-70% of PA Muslims support savage suicide bombings of Jewish innocents.
The Free World is in a fight for her survival! Israel, stand strong! NEVER give up the fight for freedom! NEVER surrender to the global jihad onslaught! Not one inch of Land to barbaric, implacable enemies!
NEVER agree to vicious and evil ethnic Jew cleansing!
I’d like to see Hillary Clinton stand up in front of the cameras for all America to see and demand that a leader caught red-handed rigging an election MUST be put back into power. It’s not going to happen, and that is why this development is a game-changer.
If the Washington Pravda and the New York Izvestia don’t publish it, it’s NOT news.
Get used to it, and stop questioning the Wisdom of our Supreme Leader Kim Il Obama and of the Politburo of the ONLY Party that deserves (and has) all the power.
Now stop reading this useless, antiproletarian, and racist blog and file your request for a physical, if you lose more time you will get it in 2019 instead of 2017.
I had to use my whole name due to another Steve posting in these forums. I would like to see more information concerning these seized computers, but they are at least on the surface believable due to the action that were taken by Zelaya prior to his removal.
However the Constitution of Honduras is plain to read and you know that he was working outside the law and instead of being put in exile should have instead been removed from office and jailed for treason as required in the constitution.
Leftists are always honest! The Party is always right! 2+2=5
#22
I suggest that you make an appointment with a mechanic. You seem to have a loose screw. I know that facts are silly things for you leftist.
One of the members of the legal government in Honduras lost his job, because he mentioned “The Little Black Man.” Is Obama “little”? Is he “black”? Is he a “man”? It seems that the man was correct, except “black”.That is only half true. For your information, two of the children my wife and i are rearing are 100% black. How many black children do you have?
3. Wolla Dalbo:
Perhaps the MSM is not reporting this story because it doesn’t want to give us here in the U.S. any ideas about how we might detect and handle a similar situation that could very easily happen here under the reign of Obama& Co.and ACORN.
~~~~
It already HAS happened here. Eightteen states have (or had) indicments against ACORN for voter fraud. When it came time to count, Republican’s were literally forced out of the room so the Dem’s were counting unchecked. In WA, *boxes* of “uncounted” ballots were found just in time for the *third* recount – all favoring the current incompetent incumbent. In too many instances, these cases were thrown out by DEM AG’s.
The MSM in the United States is totally corrupt and operating in compliance with the Socialist Movement of Barack Obama.
If they haven’t written or published any comments on the subject in question, it is solely because they are too busy attacking Conservatives any where they find them, or the Conservative Ideals.
This MSM in the United States is completely irresponsible for reporting the NEWS; They only report what Obama’s Socialist Movement wants them to report, or opinions that agree with the Obama’s Socialist Movement.
An autopsy on Walter Cronkite would show the propaganda of today’s MSM had metastasized throughout his body and was eating him alive from the inside.
23. Steve DeMarcus:
However the Constitution of Honduras is plain to read and you know that he was working outside the law and instead of being put in exile should have instead been removed from office and jailed for treason as required in the constitution.
~~~
The Honduran’s could take lesson’s from the Romanian’s. The Honduran’s were downright NICE in how Zalaya was treated considering what he was trying to do.
I cannot tell you how much all of this sickens me. All that POS Obama had to do was keep his nose out of Honduran affairs, but noooooooo. He has to interfere, either out of ignorance or out of love for Chavez. If there is a civil war, he has blood on his hands. (But you can bet he will never apologize for THAT.)
I don’t usually use words like POS, but as I say, this Honduran thing has me completamente loca.
Why would even Fox News ignore this? They have no bias toward ALBA nations or interest in socialist chicanery. I sent them 3 emails regarding this, telling them essentially to get off their ass. Nothing.
This absolutely is blowing my mind.
I think “See no evil. Hear no evil. Speak no Evil” is the wrong visage for this article.
Shouldn’t it be more like: “See lies. Speak and repeat lies. Here lies the MSM.”
It’s simple. We can’t have our Beloved Leader linked to someone who was in the process of stealing an election. So the MSM is silent.
As for Fox or whoever else that may otherwise report on this, that’s simple, too. If they want access to our Beloved Leader ever again, they were probably informed they damn well better tow the line.
Let’s see. We have an illegal coup in Honduras. And, yes, it was a coup the instant they forced the President on a plane and out of the country.
Then the leaders of the illegal coup say, hey, look what we found.
And you wonder why they are being ignored?
they were trying to perfect things for the USA 2012 election.
A lil practice run.
TO: All
RE: Another Idiot Heard From
The Honduras Supreme Court and their Congress said the president’s actions were unlawful and the president refused to comply with their demands.
So they sent their military to arrest the president.
And this is ‘illegal’?
How VERY odd, the mental acrobatics of these useful fools.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. They’re not being ‘ignored’, by anyone with more than two synapses to rub together….
Zelaya’s removal from power was constitutional. That was not a coup.
Perhaps his removal from the country by the military was improper (though likely prudent, given that the chavistas in Honduras would likely have gone ape-shit over his imprisonment, encouraging fraternal outside intervention).
The silence on the part of Obama and his fellow travelers makes perfectly corrupt sense.
The silence on the part of the likes of Fox News and Drudge, however, makes no sense.
“According to the Honduran authorities these computers contained the results of the referendum Zelaya was fervently trying to push through.”
Is this surprising? This has happened for years in other countries and dear USA. Paper ballots were manipulated, software is a lot easier and 99.9% of the people don’t know what’s going on. Our legislators should establish purity procedures on all elections. I haven’t trust anyone for years. Better start learning some code . . .
Looks like you’ve got it all figured out, Hillary. Now run and go tell your boss.
really, this may be true, but it changes nothing. like the ballots coming from chavez, you can be sure that the fix was in….. but the plan was so crude, so over the top, so blatant that you had to think a child put it together. so it just doesnt matter what evidence is “found”.
33 booboo sheepherder/molester
how is it a coup when it is the constitutional perogative of the congress of the Nation of Honduras to remove the president when he failed to follow their constitution?
are you one of those vindictive people who think you should have a higher stasnding in society then you presently hold so that you throw in with the lot who want something for nothing? or are you just uneducated?
Here is Vivo from his Comment 27 on July 27.
Here is Vivo from comment 37 of this thread.
We put Vivo’s comments together. Planned electoral fraud is not surprising, according to Vivo, and by supporting Zelaya with his planned electoral fraud, we are supporting democracy.
Yawn. Why all the continuing talk about the MSM? We know it/they are all a bunch of crap. Stop reading the crap, wasting your time, cancel subscriptions, etc. The less attention, the better. Let them fade into obscurity, infamy, irrelevance.
Focus attention on any efforts to “bail” them out with tax payer funds.
Talking about elections, paper or electronic, how about those clowns at ACORN? Anyone care to get them back in their cages?
The Chavez Doctrine:
1) Get elected by proclaiming you are “for the people,” by promising to give the poor all the goodies the rich currently enjoy.
2) Once in power, spend every minute consolidating power and organizing a “national referrendum” to form a constitutional assembly.
3) Use the constitutional assembly to guarantee you are President for Life.
4) Enjoy absolute power with the rest of your cronies.
This is a story repeated in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, and likely soon enough in Nicaragua and El Salvador. It almost was (and could still be) the case in Mexico and Peru.
Though I do find questionable HOW Zelaya was removed, it’s plain to see now that he HAD to be removed, or it, too, would have joined the ranks of these other miserable Cuban-styled prison nations.
I wonder if the computers they found in Tegucigalpa were the same ones Chavez’s friend Ahmadinejad used to get elected in Iran?
It’s sad to see our President failing to support protesters in Iran -on the pretext of not wanting to appear to be “interfering” in Iranian affairs- yet having no qualms about meddling in Honduran affairs to decry the ouster of Zelaya, a potential usurper and likely no friend of America’s. But it’s perfectly logical if you believe in Obama’s delusional, self-defeating policy of sacrificing our friends in the hopes of appeasing our enemies to achieve “peace.”
It’s just like when Neville Chamberlain sold out the Czechs to Hitler, in order to proclaim “peace in our times.” Yes, appeasemnt worked out so well for Europe…
It is grossly unfair to expect US presstitutes to report anything negative about democrats, communists, anti-Americans, MSM types, or muslim terrorists!! They hate America and all it represents!
Gringo, that’s not fair, taking advantage of an idiot. Be nice.
I keep thinking of Kenya. Wasn’t this the same playbook? Accusations by the looser of the election of “voter fraud”, an “uprising” (muslims who burned over 600 christian churchs) and then the united states to the rescue to “mediate” a power sharing. Wasn’t Obama meeting with Odinga the looser? I smell a rat.
Hey, Gringo, do not expect vivo to be consistent. He is nothing but a Lefty troll that the Belmont Club ran out so he has come elsewhere to try and make useless trouble. Ignore the troll. He is an IDIOT.
Let me get this straight. The people who illegally ousted an elected president in a military coup, turned around and offered evidence that Zelaya was jury-rigging the plebiscite. The military junta that now rules Honduras through proxy, after removing its democratically elected leader. And the only paper that covered it was a Catalan-language tabloid.
And that’s your evidence.
I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. Citizen journalism is fantastic. But you kids aren’t ready for prime time.
“Paper ballots were manipulated, software is a lot easier and 99.9% of the people don’t know what’s going on.”
Soft ware IS NOT easier to manipulate. If it is open source, it 9manipulation) can be detected by anyone above a potted plant level IQ…. If you get caught manipulating an election, it should ba an automatic 10 years hard time.
Turn up with a box of ballots, go to jail.
What needs to be done is for the US Bureau of Standards and the Federal Election Commission to sit down and come up with a hard to hack election system. Then there needs to a constitutional amendment passed that requires the states to use it.
The BIG mistake was back in the day when they changed the Senate from appointed to elected. Before the Senate was the playground of the rich and powerful. The spent their time scheming and plotting to get their buds in as Senator.
Once an Amendment was passed changing a Senator from appointed to elected to cut down on the skullduggery and blatant dishonesty involved in filling the Senate, the rich and powerful started scheming and plotting with the House too.
Not exactly what the do-gooders had in mind.
41. Gringo:
“Here is Vivo from his Comment 27 on July 27.”
“We put Vivo’s comments together. Planned electoral fraud is not surprising, according to Vivo, and by supporting Zelaya with his planned electoral fraud, we are supporting democracy.”
You can read my comments from July 27? Talk about preloaded fraud . . .
You’re sooo smart: my June 27 comment was written with the information at hand BEFORE the discovery of the alleged preloaded computers. As information changes and truths arrive, opinions change.
You write ‘July 27′, people think you’re a loony. People discover it’s a typo, well, maybe he’s not a loony after all. Opinions change with the facts.
Learned something today?
Who are the idiots now?
Now I’m the King of the Idiots!
TO: All
RE: Moho….
….obviously is STILL trying to learn-read-comprehend English. Possibly as a tertiary language.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Stupid, adj., Ignorant and proud of it.]
didn’t JFK beat Nixon by “stuffing ballots” when he became president? there isn’t much new or original in politics.
Mugabe has his “veterans” and O-BUM-A has his brown shirts formerly know as ACORN.
Moho:
Two points.First, the article was in Spanish. Second, it did not appear only in Europa Press, nor was Europa Press the first to cover it.
Fausta’s Blog reported on Friday evening that Libertad Digital and ABC Spain had covered the story. Both Libertad Digital and ABC Spain acknowledge Europa Press, and the wording of their articles appears identical to that of the Europa Press article, so it might be argued that these three articles show only one paper covering the story. These appeared on Friday, July 17.
However, this had already been covered in the Honduran press.
Here is an article from El Heraldo in Tegucigalpa on July 9: Requisan computadoras de Casa Presidencial. So nearly two weeks ago, the Honduran press was reporting that computers were being inspected.
Here is an article from La Tribuna in Tegucigalpa from July 16 on the results of the inspection of the computers.
If you need translations, I will give them.
Moho’s statement about citizen journalists is self-descriptive.
The ONLY paper covering it? I found the La Tribuna article by using Google News, with the following search term: zelaya computadoras. I found the El Heraldo article by doing an Advanced Google Search on the El Heraldo website, using the same search term.
I have cut down the links in this posting because my experience is that too many links result in postings never appearing.
Vivo:
So you are informing us that you now believe this statement from June 27 is a false statement. After all, “opinions change.”
If this is a false statement, then you believe that the following is a true statement.
Just wondering.
Gringo. Its a Catalan language paper–you obviously didn’t even go to the website. However, I will give you that despite what’s written in this article–there were two other papers based in Spain that covered it.
However, I again submit:
Uno de los fiscales que participó en el operativo realizado ayer mostró a los medios de comunicación un acta electoral del Instituto Técnico Luis Bográn, de Tegucigalpa, en el que se especifica el número de personas que participaron en la mesa 345, donde se contabilizaron 550 papeletas de las cuales 450 eran votos a favor de la propuesta de Zelaya y 30 en contra, además de 20 votos en blanco y 30 nulos.
You have an illegal government that rose as a result of a coup, showing up with evidence not subject to review, that the Zelaya government was corrupt. This is beyond absurd. How can anyone be sure where these computers came from–the military junta already broke the law once. And tell me that if this were the other way around–if a leftist military block overthrew a conservative Latin American president–that you would believe this story. Let’s say a Saddam Hussein rolling into Kuwait finds evidence there that Kuwait was amassing chemical weapons to attack Iraq with–you would have believed Hussein, I suppose. Good for you, it shows that you’re open-minded.
I would think that the main reason the western media is not covering this story is that its simply and obviously impossible to verify.
Finally, its quite obvious that the media has no great love for leftist Latin American leaders. Read the paper once in a while, you’ll find a dozen stories a week about how awful Chavez is. This is simply stupid, hyper-biased and baseless crap. Really unhelpful. If you want to pretend to be a journalist, then follow this up, bolster or dispel the claim, instead of breathlessly reporting the first thing you hear that supports your thesis. That’s why Pajamas Media is on the verge of collapse; its simply useless. The majority of people willing to unflinchingly believe anything that’s put in front of them is dwindling, and most of them are nearly illiterate.
Gringo, be careful, you will hurt their brains with logic. Of course, being liberals, it won’t be a big hurt.
If this is a lie, I don’t understand why. The Constitution of Honduras said Zelaya has to go. He said “I won’t”. The Legal authorities sent over guys with guns to send him packing. He left, the Vice President took over, just as the Constitution requires. No coup there, just a legal transfer of power.
No need to pony up data files. As a mater of fact, creating data files to confuse the issue is something that works in Zelaya’s favor and might have been done by his minions.
In the cloak and dagger world, it is called a double blind.
The Byzantine ( Eastern Roman or Greek ) Empire was a master at this sort of thing. They would plant a letter incriminating some Bey’s ( Islamic lord, equal to a Duke or Count in the West) best General in treason. Then they would plant an obviously false letter incriminating one of their agents.
Twisty people doing twisty things.
BTW, FOX is no different then CNN, ABC, CBS or any of the other MSM outlets. They are all owned by people that belong to the same clubs and go to the same cocktail parties and nightclubs. Sit next to each other at sporting events. They trade employees around like Baseball owners. So why would anyone think FOX was any different? Legend? Myth? Rumor? Where are the facts that support that illusion of difference? Change back and forth between any two of them and see if you can tell them apart.
Right now any non PC news you get will come off the net. Sorros, Lewis and Gates are looking to change that so there will not EVER be a second opinion.
Mel was trying to subvert the constitution, his removal from power was legal, and the succession followed constitutional procedure. The military never tried to take power. The computers are further evidence of Mel’s subversion.
Moho, your statement is baseless. As to PJM being “useless”, if that is indeed the case then what are you doing here?
Typos–
Does your brain have access to the trial where Zelaya was accused and found guilty of violating the constitution–a trial where he was able to defend himself against the charges? Do you think that if someone is accused of breaking the law, then justice is served by going to their house in the middle of the night and expelling them from the country? Where was Zelaya’s impeachment trial? And, where in Honduran law is it constiutional to expel a citizen as a punishment for a crime in the first place? Why not simply put Zelaya in jail and appear with these magic computers in a court of law for an orderly and legal transfer of power? Do you actually know what logic is?
You people remind me of little kids in their parents closet trying on the big clothes and pretending to be adults.
Neill…sorry I should have said “nearly useless”. It is fun to come here and make fun of you idiots, that’s for sure.
The Republic has never been or will ever be the concern of the main-stream-media. They only have eyes for socialism, and Obama is their man.I often wonder what they expect to get out of this.
Those whose chosen form of argument is ad hominem in nature – oligarchs, illegal, not subject to review, illiterate – asks others to “support their thesis.” Bizarre. Riddle us this then. Here is a personal, but hopefully, accurate description of the most recent events that led to the removal of Zelaya from office. If the commenter above wishes to dispute any of this, please offer a detailed reply, free of ad hominem attacks, please, and with facts, names and dates.
Similar to the USA, Honduras Government has three major branches, The Executive (run by the President), The Legislature (The Congress) and the Supreme Court. Article 239 of the Honduras Constitution states that no President can be elected to more than one term. It also states that any citizen who seeks to change the article needs to resign his or her public office. Moreover, Article 42, Section 5 of the Constitution states that promoting the re-election of the President is grounds for the revocation of citizenship, and Articles 5, 373 and 374 make it clear that the president serves only one term and that this rule cannot be changed – even by constitutional amendment or referendum.
In March 2009, President Zelaya issued a Decree (PCM-005-2009) to create a new Honduras Constitution, for what reason he did not say, but regardless the Honduras Supreme Court ruled the decree illegal and unconstitutional. However, President Zelaya persisted, and issued a further Presidential Decrees (PCM-019-2009), initially proposing an opinion poll, then ultimately a referendum be held on 28-Jun-09 on the issue of writing a new Honduras Constitution. Again these moves were ruled unconstitutional by the Honduras Supreme Court and leading to The Congress passing a new law on 23-Jun-09 making it illegal for referendums to be held 180 days before or after a general election.
On 24-Jun-09 President Zelaya ordered the Military to distribute the 28-Jun-09 referendum ballot boxes and when the military refused to participate in the illegal act, he fired the Defense Minister and the Head of the Armed Forces. The heads of the Honduras Army, Air Force and Navy also resigned in protest. The President then led a group of supporters to the Acosta Mejia Air Base where they broke down the gates and recovered the ballot boxes and slips.
On 24-Jun-09 President Zelaya ordered the military to distribute the 28-Jun-09 referendum ballot boxes and when the military refused to participate in the illegal act, he fired the Defense Minister and the Head of the Armed Forces. The heads of the Honduras Army, Air Force and Navy also resigned in protest. The President then led a group of supporters to the Acosta Mejia Air Base where they broke down the gates and recovered the ballot boxes and slips that had been supplied from Venezuela.
On 25-Jun-09, the Attorney General (who is not part of the Executive Cabinet) asked that Congress vote to prosecute President Zelaya for repeated illegal and unconstitutional acts, which they did in a unanimous vote (even though the majority of the Honduras Congress members are from the same political party as Mel Zelaya). Article 313 of the constitution provides a mechanism to prosecute a sitting president or other public official who has broken the law, which is to say that the Supreme Court may begin proceedings against him, and the court may use the armed forces to arrest the president. Also on this day the Supreme Court ruled 5-0 that Zelaya violated the Head of the Armed Forces constitutional rights by firing him without cause and ordered he be reinstated.
On the 26-Jun-09, President Zelaya held a press conference stating he would continue with the ballot and denying that he had fired the Head of the Armed Forces. The Congress initiated a commission to investigate the conduct of the President under Article 205, paragraph 20 of the Constitution which empowers the Congress to approve or reject the conduct of the President and arguably remove a President if it can be shown they have an “inability to govern”. The Supreme Electoral Tribunal (the equivalent of the USA Federal Election Commission) ordered the military to confiscate the ballot materials ahead of 28-June-09.
On 28-Jun-09 around 5:00 am, the Honduras Military acting under the order of the Honduras Supreme court executed the warrant to detain President Zelaya. It is reported that 200 soldiers surrounded the Presidential House and 15 entered, over-powering his bodyguards. He was then deported to Costa Rica.
Now comes the opinion on all this. The only remotely questionable act by the Honduran government was the forcible deportation. One can only surmise that, since the Honduran constitution does not provide an avenue for impeachment, the authorities decided that his continued presence in Honduras as a clear and present threat to public order. Yes, it’s questionable. But certainly Zelaya’s conduct was arbitrary and illegal and had to be stopped. Be that as it may, the most likely explanation from this chronology of events is that Zelaya – probably with Chavez ideological, financial and logistical backing – was undertaking a slow motion coup d’etat to replace a democratic, constitutional government structure based on the rule of law with a personal dictatorship, probably eventually involving Soviet-style “elections”, which would receive orders from and report to Hugo Chavez and ALBA. The fact that the vote “results” was rigged is both consistent with Zelaya’s earlier actions and, frankly, unsurprising.
$60 Moho:
“You people remind me of little kids in their parents closet trying on the big clothes and pretending to be adults.”
Not to interrupt a good rant or anything, but are you SURE that the Hondurans use the same legal model as the United States does?
I’m not any kind of expert in Honduran Constitutional Law, and neither, (I suspect), are you.
It just might turn out that the actions taken in removing Zelaya from office were entirely proper and correct according to their own laws.
And look, it’s not like they dragged him outside and stood him against the wall of his own offices to be shot, is it?
In the context of Latin American politics, they treated him with kid gloves.
“Why not simply put Zelaya in jail and appear with these magic computers in a court of law for an orderly and legal transfer of power? Do you actually know what logic is?”
Why yes, I do.
Do you know the difference between apples and bananas?
The difference between Terre Haute and Tegucigalpa?
I’ve kinda got my doubts that you do.
63: Boqueronman:
There are several points to be made here:
1. There’s a little trick you can do with google to see where people are getting their facts. I took the first sentence in your little analysis and googled it, and came up with the exact phrase from here, a website run by a scuba aficionado:
http://www.aboututila.com/News/Honduras-2009-Political-Crisis.htm
I doubt you’ve looked at the constitution itself, but here’s a link:
http://pdba.georgetown.edu/Constitutions/Honduras/hond05.html
2. There’s a lot of problems with what you’re arguing here. Was there a trial to determine the guilt of Zelaya on these charges? Do you believe in the rule of law? Of habeas corpus? Nowhere here have you indicated that Zelaya was either brought up on charges, or that he was given a chance to refute the chances. The only thing you have here is that Zelaya’s action was ruled unconstitutional by the court–that does not seem to lead to an expulsion or removal of citizenship with no due process.
Moreover, If you’re committment to the rule of law is as strong as you say it is, then your first beef is with the constitution of Honduras itself, which if, what you say is true, can expel any person it deems a threat without trial and by force.
3. By your rubric and admission, the actions of the military were illegal. Should the heads of the military be deported as well? Who decides which actions are a greater threat to public order? If there was no avenue for impeachment–THEN THERE WAS NO AVENUE FOR IMPEACHMENT. You’re undermining your entire argument if you are declaring that any actor can usurp the law when it becomes inconvenient to follow it–by that measure, what Zelaya did was perfectly reasonable.
There are several reasons why due process exists. One very important, one, and one overlooked by people here on a regular basis, is that it provides CYA. The most important tool a government has is legitimacy–if it fails to follow its own rules, when it acts in a way that cannot be justified by law, when it circumvents due process for arbitrary punishment, it loses legitimacy. You can’t argue that the current government of Honduras has any legitimacy in the eyes of the continent of S. America, nor on the international stage. And it obviously doesn’t deserve it.
Bilgeman. That’s a fine argument. By this measure, any country can do whatever it wants to do whenever it wants to do it, damn international norms and law. Except, of course, if its a country you don’t like, then I’m sure that the rule of law is supreme in your eyes–or then, by what logic do you claim that Iran’s nuclear program should be halted or that Iraq was legally bound to give up its weapons of mass destruction [had they existed]? Surely, its Iraq’s right to write its own laws, and it was perfectly legal to build such weapons under Iraqi law.
Obvious, bullshit. I was overly kind when I noted that you were trying on your father’s clothes. You’re not quite there yet, playing cowboy, instead, on a hobby horse.
Moho:
I find four other sources that discuss the computer investigation, and you believe that I didn’t bother to check the Europapress.cat website to find out it is a Catalan language website with occasional articles in Spanish? I didn’t say the website was in Spanish. I said the article was. BTW, Europapress is a little more than just a “Catalan language tabloid.”
Interesting that you acknowledged that Spanish sources covered the story but you didn’t acknowledge that Honduran sources also had covered the story. Why did you not do so?
I admit to the possibility that someone opposed to Zelaya ginned up the computers. The computers should be submitted to Interpol for inspection and verification, just as the computers captured in the Raul Reyes incident were. Considering who Zelaya’s allies are, I would bet my money on this data being generated by Zelaya’s people.
Daniel Ortega in Nicaragua, who coincidentally just came out in favor of amending his contry’s constitution to allow his continued reelection, has been accused of electoral fraud in the recent municipal elections. As I am not well-informed on this, at this stage I would say, “not proven,” but I would place my money on fraud.
After all consider the track record of their Big Daddy, Hugo Chávez. The ballots for the Honduras referendum that never took place were printed in Venezuela. There are a number of peer-reviewed academic studies that that point to fraud in the 2004 recall referendum in Venezuela.
1)“A Statistical Approach to Assess Referendum Results: the Venezuelan Recall Referendum 2004,” by Cordero and Márquez, appeared in 2006 in the International Statistical Review This is an abstract from a pay-by-subscription publication, but you can access the complete publication here .
Statistical Science, a publication of the Institute of Mathematical Statistics,
has accepted for publication three articles on the referendum.
2) “Analysis of the 2004 Venezuela Referendum: The Official Results Versus the Petition Signatures, Delfino and Salas.
3) “The 2004 Venezuelan presidential recall referendum: Discrepancies between exit polls and official results,” by Prado and Sansó.
4) “Quick anomaly detection by the Newcomb-Benford Law, with applications to electoral processes data from the USA, Puerto Rico and Venezuela,” by Pericchi and Torres.
When four peer-reviewed academic papers in mathematical statistics point to fraud in the 2004 Recall Referendum, that pretty well points to fraud.
Granted this does not proved that Zelaya’s people ginned up the computers, but when your most important ally is a proven fraudster, that does say something.
What this:
…that I didn’t bother to check the Europapress.cat website to find out it is a Catalan language website with occasional articles in Spanish? I didn’t say the website was in Spanish. I said the article was.
Has to do with this:
And the only paper that covered it was a Catalan-language tabloid.
only you know. You’re arguing with yourself, and both sides are losing.
Moho, a trial wasn’t necessary. The fact that he publicly called for a referendum to change the Constitution makes his removal from office automatic, per the Honduran Constitution. It would be like discovering that the President of the United States was not a natural-born citizen or not yet 35- he forfeits all claim to the office because he isn’t eligible to hold it.
Moho’s comments here just illustrates the hypocrisy that is part and parcel of the Left’s tactics worldwide. Rules for thee and none for me.
Moho here is trying to be clever by claiming that the Honduran military, judiciary and legislature were wrong in ousting Zelaya the way they did because they did not “follow due process” in ousting him from office.
Where, he demands, is it written in the Honduran Constitution that Zelaya could be deported, huh? Huh?
I find this funny … because this concern for strictly following the Constitution of Honduras was nowhere to be found when Zelaya was violating it over and over again and deliberately sticking his finger in the eyes of the other co-equal branches of the Honduran government in the run-up to his ouster.
Did Zelaya follow “due process”? No. So why the complaining by his supporters – like Moho? Following “due process” wasn’t important before – why is it so important now? Because it’s the Left’s ox (another Left-Wing despot to join Castro and Chavez) that’s being gored?
In other words, Moho and his ilk obviously thinks it is perfectly okay for aspiring Left-Wing dictators to violate the law but beyond the pale for the opposition to reciprocate – and note that I’m not conceding that the Honduran military, judiciary and legislature did so in the first place.
Endpoint; in his utterly selfish single-minded pursuit of power with himself as the latest in a long line of South American dictators, Zelaya decided not to play by the rules. He flouted binding rulings of law from the Honduran Supreme Court (including black letter constitutional law) and took actions that violated the separation of powers.
That the opposition decided to follow suit and also play outside the rules is no one’s fault but his own. Rules are there for a reason and they’re binding on all parties involved – once you go outside them, you have no right to expect, much less demand, the other party to refrain from following suit.
In other words; if you bring a knife to a boxing match, you have no right to complain when I pull out a gun.
The good thing is that Honduras’ next aspiring President-for-Life now knows that he’d better be ready to find himself deposited in his pyjamas on an empty field in some far distant nation should he make the mistake of giving in to his dictatorial instincts.
Mythbuster, ironically named…
No, I just read the constitution, and it doesn’t say that…
ARTICULO 42.- La calidad de ciudadano se pierde:
1. Por prestar servicios en tiempo de guerra a enemigos de Honduras o de sus aliados;
2. Por prestar ayuda en contra del Estado de Honduras, a un extranjero o a un gobierno extranjero en cualquier reclamación diplomática o ante un tribunal internacional;
3. Por desempeñar en el país, sin licencia del Congreso Nacional, empleo de nación extranjera, del ramo militar o de carácter político;
4. Por coartar la libertad de sufragio, adulterar documentos electorales o emplear medios fraudulentos para burlar la voluntad popular;
5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República; y,
6. Por residir los hondureños naturalizados, por más de dos años consecutivos, en el extranjero sin previa autorización del Poder Ejecutivo.
En los casos a que se refieren los numerales 1) y 2), la declaración de la pérdida de la ciudadanía la hará el Congreso Nacional mediante expediente circunstanciado que se forme al efecto. Para los casos de los numerales 3) y 6), dicha declaración la hará el Poder Ejecutivo mediante acuerdo gubernativo; y para los casos de los incisos 4) y 5) también por acuerdo gubernativo, previa sentencia condenatoria dictada por los tribunales competentes.
translation: and 5) also as a result of governmental agreement, a guilty sentence laid down by the appropriate court [tribunal]. I would also say that 5 is a rather alarming rule that would basically make it possible to lose your citizenship simply by writing an editorial in favor of the plebiscite:
5. Por incitar, promover o apoyar el continuismo o la reelección del Presidente de la República; y,
Translation: 5) Inciting, promoting or supporting the continuation of a presidency or the re-election of the President of the Republic.
You guys are treading on thin ice here, arguing for exactly the kind of repressive, dictatorial regime–and negation of the right to free speech–that you’re constantly imagining and whining about here in relation to Republicans. In short, this exactly the kind of thing that broadcasts even louder what short-sighted, mendacious idiots you all are.
Martin Knight,
If your intellectual abilities are anything like your physical abilities, you’d still lose the boxing match.
“” The voting results found on those computers were all contrived to indicate a predetermined outcome. “”
Sounds pretty much like the Hondurans were going to have an “election” and/or “referendum” indistinguishable from any and/or every one of ours since the “Democrats”* — by a hundred years at least — anticipated FDR’s “Uncle Joe:” the mass murdering Lefty, Stalin!
B A – L A – CA
*(“Those who cast the votes decide nothing.
Those who count the votes decide everything.” — Josef Stalin)
People of Honduras_ 1 Leftwing dictators_ 0
moho:
and 5) also as a result of governmental agreement, a guilty sentence laid down by the appropriate court [tribunal]. I would also say that 5 is a rather alarming rule that would basically make it possible to lose your citizenship simply by writing an editorial in favor of the plebiscite
It’s not your country, nor your constitution, that you presume to make a binding judgement of. Imagine if a Honduran presumed to alter YOUR constution in just the same way.
Mojo,
You’re just like all the other Chavistas (including Obama et al).
You don’t accept that a democratic Honduras is a sovereign nation.
Neill,
It’s not your country, nor your constitution, that you presume to make a binding judgement of. Imagine if a Honduran presumed to alter YOUR constution in just the same way.
I’m sure this is the argument you make every time Iran comes up.
Moho,
Heh heh. Sure … whatever you say.
I note though; a little while ago, you were shrieking about our lack of respect for the Honduran Constitution because we supported Zelaya’s booting out of Honduras.
Of course, you’ve taken great care not to even acknowledge Zelaya’s own very very clear violations of the Honduran Constitution that led to his ouster … which shows that your concern for constitutional due process is only skin deep.
Which, being that you are a liberal, is par for the course. I didn’t expect any better and you didn’t disappoint.
But I didn’t expect such a hypocritical turn-around quite so soon. Why are you complaining about “5.”? Is it not in the Honduran Constitution? Weren’t you just whining about how important it is to strictly follow the Constitution?
In your own (typos corrected) words (#65): “If [your] [commitment] to the rule of law is as strong as you say it is, then your first beef is with the constitution of Honduras itself …”
Heh heh …
Martin Knight. You really are stupid. I wrote that coup plotters didn’t even respect their OWN constitutional process. I translated five for you, so that now you actually know what you’re talking about. A trial was required. WE KNOW THAT THERE WAS NO TRIAL. I added that for all of you people always screeching about how we should be intervening in other countries for the sake of democracy, you have a very high threshold for conservative faves. Par for the course for idiots who’ve never actually thought about anything their leaders tell them. Whereas the crimes of the Honduran military are manifest, the so-called crimes of Zelaya are yet to be proven.
Translation. You’re not fooling anyone with this seventh grade term paper level analysis.
(moho re-inserts head where sun don’t shine)
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-estrada10-2009jul10,0,1570598.story
TO: All
RE: Getting This?
Moho wants to dictate to EVERYBODY on planet Earth how they should live.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Why does Moho remind me of some other cretin we’ve seen disappear off the face of planet PJM?
[Change the name and confuse the public.....]
P.P.S. I do believe there are reports that ACORN is attempting to do the same…..
Moho.
Really? The crimes of the Honduran military (judiciary, legislature, Attorney General, etc.) are “manifest” while Zelaya’s blatant violations of the law and unconstitutional ignoring of the other two branches of government are not?
Zelaya manifestedly did not follow the rules, that’s what started this fracas – do you deny it? – [Moho will never answer this ...] So why on Earth should the opposition follow the rules in dealing with him?
Turnabout is fair play. The idiot brought it upon himself – seethe, rage, rend your garments and dash yourself to the ground, but that’s the way it is. Deal with it.
Moho
Please explain why the English-language MSM has not reported THIS from Medios Latinos.
If your hypothesis were correct, wouldn’t the English Language MSM be all over this story? IMHO, “lazy and incompetent” describes much of the English language MSM treatment of Latin America. Not all: Simon Romero of the NYT writes good articles, for example.
Originally in La Prensa.
56. Gringo:
You read my answer. If you want to play silly games, get a Nintendo.
*
CONCACAF Gold Cup
USA 2, Honduras 0
Martin Knight. I ALREADY DENIED IT, YOU ILLITERATE FOOL!
You seem to be losing your cool, Moho
Whatever could be wrong?
Endpoint; Manuel Zelaya violated the Honduran Constitution by attempting to perpetuate himself in power despite multiple rulings and orders by the Honduran Supreme Court, Attorney General, Legislature and Military to cease and desist. He violated Honduran statutory law by illegally firing senior military officers who refused to assist him in breaking the law and led mobs to break into a military base to take and distribute ballot papers to run an election he had no right to run.
He knew the rules. He chose to break them while expecting his opposition to continue to be bound by them while he transformed Honduras into a Castro-ite dictatorship. He bet he could run out the clock. He bet wrong.
Sauce, goose and gander.
And here is the truth in pictures from Honduras:
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=90605&id=119246059624&ref=nf