New York City Terror Plot and the Post-9/11 Catch-22
Do we arrest potential terrorists too early and allow them to plead to lesser charges? Or do we wait and risk an attack?
However, in an interview with the Denver Post on Saturday, Zazi denied these reports. He says that he has “not admitted any link to the terrorist group, to participation in insurgency training in Pakistan or to involvement in a terrorist plot.” Zazi’s lawyers also say they’ve broken off all talks with the FBI.
On Friday, seven in Zazi’s New York circle of friends were taken into custody. As of this writing, they have not yet been charged.
How seriously has law enforcement taken the plot? Serious enough for the FBI to have sent out warnings to local law enforcement to be on the lookout for bombs and bomb-making material.
Was a terrorist attack “imminent”?
We may never know how close the alleged plotters were to actually carrying out their attacks. If this New York Post article is to be believed, sometime prior to the raid Zazi was warned that he was the subject of an FBI investigation. A friend of Zazi’s apparently was questioned by the FBI about him. He then notified an imam who in turned warned Zazi’s family.
Were the plotters then aware that the FBI was interested in them? That seems to be the implication. If so, one is left to wonder whether or not there was time for Zazi and his associates to get rid of important evidence.
The most troubling aspect of the story, if true, was the reaction by the imam to warn Zazi not to help the FBI or the NYPD root out a possible ring of terrorists among the local Muslim community.
One possible explanation for this behavior could be that Muslims now believe that law enforcement is out to get them, and their natural reaction is to shield members of the community whom they believe to be innocent from a perceived witch hunt.
A more troubling explanation is that at least some members and leaders of the Muslim community may be giving lip service to democratic and liberal values while privately supporting Islamist groups such as the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Lashkar-e-Toiba, the Taliban, and even al-Qaeda.
In either case, this means that law enforcement cannot count on Muslims – the very people they need the most — to help stop future homegrown terror plots. And thanks to a tip to the suspect’s family through an imam, we may never know just how close to fruition the plot was.
When is the right time to act?
In the post-9/11 world all agree that law enforcement officials must act well before any plot nears fruition, but exactly when to intervene is always somewhat of a gamble. In the Zazi case, early reports indicated that the FBI was none too happy with their NYPD partners’ timing. They believed that the plotters should have been kept under surveillance longer so that more evidence could be gathered. However, the NYPD believed they could wait no longer without risking an actual attack.
Hollywood would have you believe that terror plots are always disrupted only moments before the bomb is about to be triggered. In real life there are no superheroes, and the consequences of waiting too long to act are just too dire to consider. In the real world, if a terrorist has his hand on the trigger, it’s already too late.
If you intervene too early, a group of serious terrorists intent on doing real harm may appear to be only a bunch of kids with fantasies full of grandeur and a lot of bravado. The weak evidence of an actual criminal conspiracy in these cases may lead prosecutors to seek lesser charges such as “lying to immigration officials.”
By nipping a terrorist plot in the bud we are saved from the consequences of acting too late (another 9/11). In doing so we also run the risk of feeding a preexisting fear in the Muslim community that they are being unfairly targeted by law enforcement. This, in turn, may lead to less cooperation from the very community we need the most in preventing a terror attack. It also means that the next 9/11 might go undetected because members of the Muslim community don’t take the threat seriously.
This is the post-9/11 Catch-22.
In the coming weeks we will learn just how close the plot came to being realized. If the suspects are charged with plotting domestic terrorism, then we will know we acted at the right time.
If the suspects are never directly charged but are brought up on lesser immigration violations, then we will know that we acted too early. If that is the case, then the lesson here is that we need to devote more resources to surveillance operations — enough resources that law enforcement officials feel certain that the the noose they have tied around the necks of potential conspirators is so tight that they feel confident in letting potential conspirators hang themselves without running the risk of acting too late.
But we live in an imperfect world with imperfect choices. If the choice is between acting too early and letting potential terrorists off the hook but disrupting the next 9/11 — then so be it.
I’d much rather have a bunch of potential terrorists who never got to live the dream running around screaming “discrimination” than dead “martyrs” who were able to kill thousands of Americans because we acted too late.
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Dr. Shackleford is an educator and runs the Jawa Report.
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33 Comments
1. Charles Kirtley:Of course we will never know exactly what was going on with these people. But from how it sounds now, these were a bunch of retards playing “soldier.” They probably could never pull of anything serious.
Sep 20, 2009 - 12:53 am 2. JL:I believe in the broken windows theory. By enforcing the small and seemingly insignificant crimes, you hinder the big crimes from evolving. Serious crime need a fertile soil of general lawlessness to grow. So to address the example at hand: by enforcing the seemingly insignificant emigration violations, you halt the bigger terror plots from gaining momentum. That’s what I think. But as a law enforcement officer, I would probably find it more exciting to wait for the plots to get really nasty, so I could make headline grabbing arrests.
Sep 20, 2009 - 1:59 am 3. Lifeofthemind:The best question a teacher can ask a student is “Who owns this problem?” Those who are incompletely socialized or immature are constantly projecting their failings onto external authorities. The adolescent will stand in front of you, or slouch in a chair, and say “I don’t have my homework (or “I am failing” etc.) What are you going to do about it?” The answer is “Fail you. It is your problem. You fix it.” If a student engages in misconduct, say cheating or vandalism, and another covers up then you let them know that the accessory has bought a problem. At some point group benefits (such as a trip, party or extracurricular activity) are withdrawn. Actions have consequences.
Is collective punishment “unfair?” Maybe so but it works as one tool among many. The risks are twofold.
1) Delinquents will try to provoke a reduction in the groups standard of living in order to isolate it from the external authority. This is akin to an Alynskite tactic except that it is directed at the minority community in parallel to the host oppressor.
2) Genuinely abusive agents will take advantage of the vulnerability of the isolated minority community for personal gain under the cover of the host’s authority. An example of that was people who seized the assets of interned Japanese in America during WW-II, the “Bad Day at Black Rock.”
Do members of minority groups have any responsibility to confront misconduct arising from members of their community? How did Jews respond to the predations of Meyer Lansky and Bernard Madoff? They isolated them denounced them and publicly rejected them in an overt effort to reassure the host majority that they were loyal to greater community. How did Japanese Americans respond to the perceived threat from within their community after the attack on Pearl Harbor? Despite the pain and humiliation caused by the internments they volunteereden masse for service with the highly decorated units such as the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. How did Italian Americans react to Joe Colombo’s efforts to wrap them in the cloak of victimology and isolate them as a cover for la cosa nostra? Despite some initial uncertainty, Frank Sinatra headlined a concert for Colombo’s Italian American Anti-Defamation League, the legacy of gang culture was largely ridiculed and rejected by Americans of Italian ancestry. More members of that community want to identify with Rudy Giuliani than John Gotti.
Ultimately it is the responsibility of each person to police their own conduct and then their family’s. If people choose to isolate themselves and give cover to those who threaten the larger society then they will engender mistrust. As John Donne said, “No man is an island.” Any threat to the greater community that we are aware of is our responsibility to confront if possible. If that can not be done due to physical threats then it is still, indeed it is then all the more, a responsibility to warn and cooperate with law enforcement.
Sep 20, 2009 - 3:15 am 4. HonestJon:So Zazi was WORKING AT AN AIRPORT?!?!?! Just exactly how suicidal is this country anyway? All Muslims should be banned from working at any airport in the world—just for security’s sake. Jeez!
regards
Sep 20, 2009 - 5:15 am 5. ajacksonian:Everyone dismisses such lackluster individuals as playing at this, even after they have gotten training or have received information on how to build bombs and other equipment, scout targets and recruit others to help. They do look so laughable… right up to the moment one succeeds and we ask: how could we have missed this?
The problem is that these individuals can easily latch on to greater training and resources with just one or two good contacts. Suicide bombers aren’t ‘professional terrorists’ in case anyone missed it – there is no chance to practice blowing yourself up beyond play acting. In fact very few of these sorts are professional terrorists, which doesn’t mean they can’t pull off an act of terrorism. The professionals aren’t the foot soldiers, but the commanders, the ones who aren’t killed that often. Their recruitment areas spread across Europe, Asia, Africa and the Americas, as well as Australia. The ‘muscle’ for taking over the jets on 9/11 weren’t ‘professionals’ either, and the pilots of the flights were ‘expendable’ professionals who had only done simulator time as pilots. They played at being pilots, they weren’t professionals.
The way to go after these organizations and their members is relatively simple on the civil side: put them under charges of the piracy code along with terrorism as these are also acts against the Law of Nations. One conviction of an organization as piratical then puts all members up as pirates, and relatively open-and-shut cases: if you are a member of the group, you are a pirate, and on the civil side you wind up in jail for life. Even better, anyone who knowingly supplies, helps, aids and abets such groups can get charged for a felony and 10 years in jail. The Law of Nations has been upheld by the SCOTUS as grounds for doing such in the 19th century and not overturned since then, and as that would be de Vattel’s Law of Nations, along with such fine works as Blackstone’s Commentaries, Pufendorf, Grotius, the Black Book of the Admiralty and possibly even back to Bracton in the 13th century, the lineage of what constitutes piracy is seen going far beyond the sea, kegs of rum, parrots and peg legs. This could even fit that by pointing out that the USS Cole was not beyond the reach of the high seas, which the SCOTUS has upheld as being part of the Law of the Seas, and that bombing was, indeed, piracy and that al Qaeda, the group, can be tried in absentia for piracy in federal court under Admiralty jurisdiction… there is no statute of limitations on that, by the way.
Thus whenever you pick up a miscreant who is a member of al Qaeda, directly, you can get them put away quite swiftly. Those just aiding al Qaeda knowingly get a lesser crime, but still get put away on a felony plus being a known helper of the organization. Many legal scholars have been calling for this over the past decade, and it is the one international law framework that is directly provided for in dealing with such groups as they are not purely domestic organizations and yet need a recognized venue to have their crimes against mankind tried and prosecuted. And since there is no ‘double jeopardy’ in international law on this, the helpers can be shipped around to different Nations with, perhaps, harsher laws on the matter.
But that would be simple, legal, easily done, limit ‘discovery’ to just the facts of supporting an organization and not threaten means and methods used by our covert groups to have this done. So no one will like it as it delivers swift, sure justice that isn’t that harsh in case we find out that said individuals were not part of such groups. I suggest a Supermax for these sorts, without windows or outside contact. When captured by the military, the only part of the GC that covers them is the espionage part, which has swift, sure, and readily available justice to it. Permanent if caught fighting by warfighters at war.
Sep 20, 2009 - 5:57 am 6. whyamInotsurprised?:Capture them, tie them up, and drop them off by parachute at their favorite rest stop, GITMO. These are terrorists not criminals. Lock them up and throw away the key! f**k them all.
Sep 20, 2009 - 6:28 am 7. macko:If the target is the NYC subway then we need to maintain due vigilance. This would not be the first time is was targeted as was the WTC. We do know that once as target is selected they stick with it until they accomplish there aims.
Sep 20, 2009 - 7:04 am 8. macko:If they said the cake was ready why wasn’t it found ? The imam warned this guys family and could just as easily have warned co-conspirators so that the “cake” could be moved. If the heat is off because the feds believe they have everybody they could walk right in the front door with it.
Sep 20, 2009 - 7:13 am 9. Mary Madigan:I believe in the broken windows theory. By enforcing the small and seemingly insignificant crimes, you hinder the big crimes from evolving. Serious crime need a fertile soil of general lawlessness to grow.
Combining this with the prosecution of anyone who is linked to criminal Islamist organizations under RICO statutes would probably be an effective way to fight organized and disorganized terror groups.
The Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act provides for extended criminal penalties and a civil cause of action for acts performed as part of an ongoing criminal organization. Major Islamist organizations like CAIR and ISNA are officially classified as criminal organizations. Since approximately 80% of America’s mosques are linked to these criminal, Saudi-funded organizations, the imam who aided the terrorist in this case could receive harsher punishments under RICO.
Of course, the RICO statutes were effective against the mafia because the majority of government officials were not working with the mafia. Most of our government officials are working with the Saudi/Wahhabi mob that finances the majority of terrorism worldwide. So we would need to find some way of prosecuting or at least condemning the government/Wahhabi alliance.
Sep 20, 2009 - 7:43 am 10. Blackwater:Or we could just severely crack down on islamic jihadism. Like imprisoning islamic jihadists for the rest of their lives in maximum security prisons or *gasp* execute them if they ever train with islamic terrorist groups or offer them aid in ANY capacity. We could also deport the “closet jihadists” who sit around all day watching al queda videos of people getting their heads cut off and civilians getting butchered in suicide bomb attacks on youtube and liveleak all day and who openly express support for the overthrow of Western Civilization on islamist internet forums and never let them back in any Western country EVER again since they’re a time bomb waiting to explode. Crazy racist islamophic ideas I know but I prefer my family and friends not getting killed in another 9/11 or 7/7 islamic jihadist mass murder. Wake up people. Time to get tough on these islamist barbarians.
Sep 20, 2009 - 8:22 am 11. davod:CAIR recommends Imams and others call CAIR, not the police of FBI.
Sep 20, 2009 - 8:22 am 12. rudy:what I do not see ever is this:
Why these people are admitted in this country in the first place?
that is always absent from any information, they got here, got residence, got a job, and never, ever, an inmigration officer or law officer questioned who are these people, why they are here, what is their background. If this stupidity continues, we are in grave danger.
Sep 20, 2009 - 8:56 am 13. Filthy Screw:We allow it because it is ‘racist’ not to. Foolish, I know and suicidal as a nation but we can be seen to be painted with the dreaded ‘R’ word.
We will blithely sell the last Al Qaeda guy the rope to hang us with and allow him to walk through a airport without checking him.
After 9/11 my son walked into the house with a Marine corps recruiter and within three weeks was on his way to the MCRD in San Diego. On his way back to Iraq from one of his tours, we watched a Caucasian woman in her 80s or 90s in a wheelchair being lifted out of her chair by two agents so others could search around her. My son was strip searched because you know those blond haired blue eyed Marines were the ones who hijacked the last plane. At the same time, 4 men from North Africa or the middle east got on to the same plane without being stopped.
Sep 20, 2009 - 9:46 am 14. EnemyoftheState:#12. rudy: They came here through our porous borders. Just a few among the millions of illegal immigrants. After they got here, organizations like ACORN helped them to find a residence and a job, taught them how to avoid the authorities. Those who really learned how to play the system are probably living at taxpayer expense in public housing with free medical care. Soon they will receive amnesty and be able to vote. Then they’ll face a tough quandary: do they want to destroy the country that’s stupid enough to give them all these free bennies?
Sep 20, 2009 - 9:47 am 15. Mike:Well it need not be so complicated – either you have evidence of committing or intent to commit terrorist acts (wiretapped recordings, computer trail, etc.) or you don’t.
The FBI and NYPD’s continuous stream of anonymous comments to the media may be part of a larger propaganda strategy but it will be used against them and we will see these guys portrayed as victims in the near future. Bet.
Sep 20, 2009 - 9:51 am 16. RichardB:A Muslims loyalty is always first to Islam and Islam teaches that America is “the great Satan”, Dar al Harb, which must be conquered by Jihad, overtly and covertly.
Sep 20, 2009 - 10:03 am 17. J.J. Sefton:Elements of the equation:
New York City connection.
Impending Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur holidays
Subways
Synagogues
Jews
Though it would have been great to carry the investigation as far as possible, if you do the math, the NYPD did the right thing, especially since the elements of that equation hit very close to home for me.
Sep 20, 2009 - 11:11 am 18. Morton Doodslag:Increasingly I’m beginning to feel that the leftists in control of NYC, Washington, (and other major power centers) occupy the same America that I do. Their policies foment the multicultural lies which invite Muslims into our dominion in their millions to wage Jihad. Their leftist blame-America-first narrative is now embraced by the Jihadists and parroted back to further divide our civilization. Elite appeasement of Western enemies and their alienation of our allies contributes to the chaos the world is now experiencing.
I know what I’m about to say is a terrible thing to say, but I’m fairly certain I’m not alone: I am beginning to care less and less if NYC or Washington are the targets of the terrorists. In no way am I suggesting they deserve to be attacked. In no way am I saying I want to see anything like another 9/11 unfold. But I perceive that the policies of our elite policy makers (including Bush with his endless repetitious lie that “Islam is a religion of peace”, and his band-holding of and coddling of the chief terror/Jihad funder on earth: the Saudi King Abdullah…) and our clueless media have utterly destroyed our chances at rolling back and defeating the gathering Armageddon of Jihad.
I am one who always thought the isolationists and “survivalists” were nuts. But increasingly I’m feeling the need to isolate myself from the multicultural insanity of our pols, our academy, and our media, and their wreckless and suicidal handling of the Great Islamic Jihad. As for waiting to gather more intelligence, or ore-emoting potential terror activities, I’m not sure it matters in the end. Muslim immigration into America has not only continued unabated since 9/11, it has increased in some intervening years. Terrorists are not executed, but now these treasonous scum are read their rights and defended by the very system they seek to destroy. A president is elected by the majority of Americans who seem to feel it was a high crime to waterboard the 9/11 mastermind. We continue to shovel billions in aid, blood,sweat and tears into the clutches of Muslim terrorists, enablers, and Jihad funders as far flung as Indonesia, “Palestine”, Turkey, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Libya, and Pakistan. The wheels are coming off. The Jihadists have not been impeded in the larger scheme of things. The growing Muslim presence in the West is eroding every aspect of freedom in our once insulated (from Jihad) civilization. I believe they are winning, and we are losing the war which Islam is waging against us.
Sep 20, 2009 - 11:21 am 19. Dave Surls:“The case raises important questions about how domestic terrorism should be fought.”
If they’re working with Al Qaida and they’re out of uniform, then they’re spies and saboteurs, who should be tried in front of a military tribunal and promptly executed, if found guilty.
See ex parte Quirin for precedent.
Sep 20, 2009 - 11:42 am 20. gordo12:What everyone is forgetting is that the current administration does not believe these men are terrorists.
Revoke the non profit status of the mosques that participate in even 1 negative word against the US.
The way we are going to be taxedin the near future, the terrorists will run on their own.
If that does not work, profilig works very good for me.
Sep 20, 2009 - 1:25 pm 21. Jay p:If the Imams thing law enforcement is out to get radicals, just wait untill the American public finally gets their bellys full of the crap they beleive. It going to make the 60’s look like preschool. My advise,Imams keep your damn mouths shut or pay the price.
Sep 20, 2009 - 3:02 pm 22. Mike Jefferson:From the best information I can obtain, the FBI moved in because the case was imploding with all of the leaks. We’ll never know how extensive this plot was because it never had the time to completely develop.
Our sympathies should lie with the FBI and our law enforcement officials who are under the gun from this administration. Add in the kumbaya directives from the DOJ and imagine the difficulties that an individual agent is experiencing.
BTW, if it weren’t for the Patriot Act, we never would have caught these latest dirtballs.
Sep 20, 2009 - 6:51 pm 23. Leatherneck:OK, we now know it is not the Amish. I am confident the Mosque/s they got their arse in the air five times a day to pray to allah the moon god has been searched for cell phones, computers, weapons, C-4, and destroyed with the American flag placed on top for pictures to the world.
Yea, I am way off base on this one, and not compassionate. Was I the one who got up this morning desiring to murder in the name of allah? No. Pray I am never in charge. I desire to destroy the enemy’s of this American nation.
ROPMA!
Sep 20, 2009 - 8:31 pm 24. Moho:Last week’s raids on a number of apartments in New York City and the subsequent questioning of an Afghan immigrant serve once again to remind us that our nation is at war
Really? Weren’t you douchebags questioning everything the government is up to just last weekend? What happened in the interim?
Sep 20, 2009 - 8:53 pm 25. David W. Lincoln:You would think enough intelligence has been gathered, and deciphered, on who comprises the 5th column of the Sons of Allah in lands that are minority Muslim. Whatever protection they thought citizenship or permanent residency accorded has to be removed.
Using the law to prevent integration is more of a display of the worst aspects of humankind, rather than the best.
Sep 20, 2009 - 9:34 pm 26. sbnative:Morton, sadly, has a point. It’s time for the U.S. to get the big wake-up call that most of the West has already had… We must fight back. Please see: http://www.actforamerica.org
Sep 20, 2009 - 10:17 pm 27. Jane O"Brien:My husband works in lower Manhattan and was there on 9/11. It was the most horrible day of our lives. The last I heard from him on that day, he was just leaving the building with our niece. Five minutes later Tower 1 came crashing down. All I could imagine was that my husband and niece were on the street when that happened and that they were probably dead under the rubble. What would I tell our only child…how would we go on…was this to be a systematic attack…what would be next…should we leave NY …how would I ever know what happened to my husband…? Thank God he survived. I heard from our niece late that afternoon. They had found a way out of the city and were working their way home. However, the horrors that they witnessed (bloodied people, bodies, people jumping out of the windows and crashing to the ground…the fear for their lives…has forever scarred them emotionally and psychologically. We who love them have been forever scarred by the trauma of not knowing and imagining the worst. How about those who lost their lives and their families. I was with a woman today who lost her father on 9/11. He worked for Cantor Fitzgerald a company that lost a large number of people on that day. I saw the pain, trauma, and shock still in her eyes and with this latest plot weighing heavily on my mind (both my husband and now my son, our only child, work in lower Manhattan and must use the train and subway system which are apparently areas involved in this latest plot of terror)all of my fears, anxieties, and obsession with what is going on and their safety is crushing me once again, as I imagine it is crushing countless others.
This country is in dire need of prayer and vigilance and the police, the CIA, and the FBI should be given everything they need to sniff out and stomp out these plots and those who would perpetrate these evil crimes against humanity.
Sep 20, 2009 - 10:30 pm 28. Benson:My citizenship and official residence are US, but I live outside the country. According to the rules of my host nation, I must have my passport with me at all times. That passport contains full information on my status here: my visa, when I must report my address to the police again (every 90 days), how long I may stay here, my reason for being here. It is all in my passport. The local equivalent of a US “green card” is unavailable to me.
Nothing like this is imposed on aliens in the USA. Their passports do not contain full information that allows anyone to determine whether they are legal visitors or immigrants.
IMHO the USA does not need and should not admit more Muslims. Yes, that’s islamophobic of me; I remind everyone that “phobia” means fear, and our fear is fully justified. Entire neighborhoods participate in a culture of silence that allows violent fanatics to hide and operate; if Muslims were the good citizens they claim to be, this would not be possible. Mass murder is on the agenda for a minority of Muslims, and the USA would be fully justified to shut the door on all because of that minority. Fair? Decent? That can be disputed, but the threat cannot. Peaceful Muslims immigrate and their children, born in the host nation, become jihadis; that’s the British experience. The risk is too great.
Further, the ultimate weapon of Islam is demographic. As Libya’s dictator Khaddafi noted, Europe is surrendering to Islam bit by bit, and will eventually — perhaps in three or four generations — no longer be part of Western Civilization. That disaster should not be trivialized simply because it seems slow; in fact, it’s a seismic event, and is taking place rapidly. Accordingly, we should ponder the consequences of harboring a large Muslim community in the USA. Assimilation is not likely, as Islamic values are in many specifics antithetical to the cultural roots of the USA.
Change the policy: no Islamic immigrants. Then change the rules: all visitors must carry full identification at all times (as I have to); those overstaying their visas, which can be determined by looking at the required passport, are deported immediately, no exceptions. No passport? Out you go, now; after all, US citizens have to have a passport simply to shop for an afternoon in a Mexican border town, so why shouldn’t all aliens in the USA have to have one, as well?
As things stand, we make it hard on no one but ourselves. It’s time to stop being silly.
Sep 20, 2009 - 11:02 pm 29. Leatherneck:Moho,
What do you think of your fellow followers of Mohammed,(SBOH),? Oh, that’s right, change the subject, and insult folks.
Please, let me know you are not Apostate, and will get up today planning murder on the infidel, like your cohorts in the above posted subject. At least, they are good Muslims trying to appease allah the moon god.
ROPMA!
Sep 21, 2009 - 4:49 am 30. brucearnold:Rather than answer the call of party-line hack Utah State Rep Curtis Oda to “proudly” run Ole Glory up a pole and celebrate 9-11 … a date which should more appropriately live in infamy like December 7 … I chose instead to mark the 8th anniversary of our 2nd Pearl Harbor by riding 1100 miles from South Florida to the DC suburb of Silver Spring MD. In so doing, I logged my 43rd Iron Butt ride and not coincidentally my “11th” SaddleSore 1000… I had a mixed agenda for my stay in our nation’s capital, including gazing at the gaggle of true believers in Glenn Beck’s 9-12 Project gathered on the National Mall for an Astroturf Tea Party. What I saw was life imitating art, with Beck playing the role of deranged “Network” TV anchor Howard Beale while his staged, sign-waving and media-seeking followers vied to broadcast their prepared sound bytes and declare with Twitter-compliant brevity why they were “mad as Hell” and “not going to take it anymore”… More here: tinyurl[dot]com/n7hmuc
Sep 21, 2009 - 7:09 am 31. Thomas_L......:“If you intervene too early, a group of serious terrorists intent on doing real harm may appear to be only a bunch of kids with fantasies full of grandeur and a lot of bravado.”
Sep 21, 2009 - 7:36 am 32. Matthew:Here’s an idea. Zero tolerance and severe penalties for any and all terrorist conspiracies. If they are indeed merely the latter, that’s too bad. Maybe the next group of idiots will learn something.
“Do we arrest potential terrorists too early and allow them to plead to lesser charges? Or do we wait and risk an attack?”
It’s up to your prosecutors to offer a plea deal or not. There’s no reason why any terrorist should off on a plea deal if the investigation has real evidence. If you ACTUALLY meant “get convicted for intent, rather than actions”, then I think the choice is pretty obvious.
As for the risk, then a trade-off is to place the perps under surveillance so you know what they’re up to. I imagine that this is necessary to build a case anyway. Then someone has to make a judgement call.
I think the bigger risk (as shown by the outcomes) is the risk of locking away people who only look like they’re a threat, rather than actually being one. I’m pretty sure this has happened once in australia – the guy was more a loser bozo than a honest-to-goodness bad guy with means. The US has had a number of cases which border on “entrapment” – i.e, while the perps clearly said what they said and did what they did, they’d never had even considered their plans if FBI informants hadn’t talked them into it, funded them and/or made sure they had access to materials. I don’t want to challenge their imprisonment – an idiot is an idiot, in my book. But I have to wonder if it’s the best use of anyone’s time or resources to create terrorists. Surely the ones that already exist are a more serious concern.
But legally blurring the line between intent and actions is nuts. That’s not the answer. The objective is to protect the public – not win bragging points. Once you’ve got someone on a terrorist charge, you’ve got them.
Sep 22, 2009 - 3:56 am 33. Tommye A. Parry:Thank you for what appears to be as factual report on the possible terrorist attack. If an individual (Mr. Zazi’s trips to Afghanistan and Pakistan) working low paying schedule jobs makes overseas trips and to countries where
Sep 23, 2009 - 1:00 pmterrorists are prevalent, then he is subject to being under surveillance and his actions investigated when he deviates from his normal domestic routine. May God save, bless and protect our country.