132 Comments

1. Just a Thought:

Nicely written, La Shawn. Your paragraph on fetal development reminded me of the movie “JUNO.” The cynical lead character decides not to get an abortion after an inept-but-sincere Protester insists, “Your baby has fingernails!”

I often wonder how many babies were saved by that movie…

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:07 am 2. TennesseeVolunteer:

In the world of O’bortion, these procedures are now called ‘neo-humanoid contingency operations’.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:41 am 3. Bilgeman:

Ms. Barber:

Huh, who knew?
To be honest, when I read your headline, I had suspected that Giorgio Armani or Calvin Klein had come up with a new low in fashion advertising.

Nicely reported. I’ve often wondered myself at the source of the post-abortion corpses that have been about.

Ms. Miller’s photographs are so central to the pro-life argument that it’s hard to imagine there being an argument with them.

Oct 21, 2009 - 5:41 am 4. Thomas_L......:

Whatever became of “safe and rare”? 40+ million? I’m moved to tears. If all it takes is pictures of the carnage to lower the body count, I’m all for it.

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:53 am 5. Moho:

The relentless, blanket coverage of abortionist George Tiller’s murder and relatively weak coverage of pro-life activist Jim Pouillon’s are examples of the media’s leftist bias.

Is there a companion article where you prove this point? Here’s the difference between Tiller and Pouillon. Tiller was an abortion doctor at the center of a legal and street battle that had gone on for years. For years, media personalities like Bill O’Reilly had fomented violence against Tiller. Tiller was killed by a member of a prominent anti-abortion group. That abortion group had given the murderer specific information about Tiller. Tiller was the only doctor in his region performing that particular abortion service.

By contrast, Pouillon was not a central personage in any regard. He had never been interviewed by the media nor was he central to any debate or issue. The man who killed him was not a member of a pro-abortion group, he murdered another person that had nothing to do with abortion–his motives were not specifically related to abortion issues. He was judged mentally incompetent by a judge at his preliminary hearing.

The differences between the issues are stark. Your feeble reasoning process notes the abortion issue and immediately equates the two individuals in a one to one scenario that can’t be defended. Your readers aren’t as stupid, though they’re pretending to be.

Oct 21, 2009 - 8:19 am 6. Delia:

I think a lot of people who consider themselves Pro Abortion don’t really want to get ‘involved’ one way or another in someone else’s life/death, even of an innocent human being.

Seeing the bloody, mangled carcasses of babies in their gestational stages may indeed jolt some of those type of people awake to the harsh, ugly reality of what abortion really is…

Oct 21, 2009 - 9:12 am 7. subcutaneous:

Moho says:
” Here’s the difference between Tiller and Pouillon.”

I say: “Here’s the difference between pro-life and “pro-choice” – you see some humans as more worthy of life (and other “rights”) than others. Because Tiller provided a “service”, his death deserved coverage. Because Poullion was “not a central personage”, his murder warranted no coverage.
In God’s eyes, both murders were wrong and deserved similar treatment and sadness.

In much the same way, a preborn baby and a 16 year old are both humans and deserve equal protection.

How sad that you can’t see that over your lib talking point sheet.

Oct 21, 2009 - 9:44 am 8. Moho:

Delia

Seeing the bloody, mangled carcasses of babies in their gestational stages may indeed jolt some of those type of people awake to the harsh, ugly reality of what abortion really is…

What makes you think they don’t know? A woman has the right to do anything with her body, even abort a living thing inside of it. The alternative is a policing and legal structure that I’m sure even you, with your limited intellect, can follow to its logical conclusion. What would you do with a woman who continues to seek abortion? Given that its the taking of a human life, shouldn’t she be jailed? Why do you put all the blame on the doctor? Are you claiming that women lack the agency to commit crimes?

As for being moved by the impact of violence against the human body, take a look at this:

http://muslimmatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/gaza-dead-girl.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iZAh1Ljaezc/SZ3ONhp2sLI/AAAAAAAAAjo/E6oRfZjXD9c/s400/dead+girl+with+dummy.jpg

Do these horrifying images make you want to march on Washington to end funding for Israel? Does it make you want to prevent your country from doing such things in your name? Or do you only care about children before they’re born?

Oct 21, 2009 - 9:53 am 9. Thomas_L.....:

Moho, the difference with you is that you’re not pretending, right? You come here to pull your pants down and act as background noise. If no one is paying you to do what you do here, look up insanity in the dictionary. All murder is wrong, you sorry POS.

Oct 21, 2009 - 9:59 am 10. Delia:

Moho,

I care about all innocent human life.

BTW, are YOU marching?

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:03 am 11. Delia:

“A woman has the right to do anything with her body”

Really? Why stop there? Is that including strapping a bomb to herself and blowing herself up in a public place for Jihad?

Asshat.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:11 am 12. Moho:

Delia, the last comment is simply stupid. Does the right to privacy protect your right to commit treason, so long as its secret? Its quite obvious that a woman’s biological process is nothing like strapping a bomb to herself. You’re too ignorant to understand the concepts you’re discussing. If you care about all innocent human life, did you oppose or support the war in Iraq?

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:18 am 13. Delia:

A peace offering for Moho:

http://clothing.cafepress.com/item/moho-homo-classic-thong/132287495

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:21 am 14. Delia:

So Moho? I can obfuscate too but it does little for the actual TOPIC at hand which is the BLOODY, brutality of ABORTION.

Find another article on PJM where your drivel might actually be ON TOPIC.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:27 am 15. Moho:

Delia, you continue to amuse. I simply don’t care whether you think I’m gay or not. I’m not interested in clarifying the issue for you. You claim to have home-schooled your child…is this what you taught her? Its criminal. I do treasure our constitutional rights, but sometimes in my darkest moments, I wish that the next President will take the illegal powers arrogated by Bush and start putting you people away in preventive detention before you harm anyone else with your dangerous stupidity.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:27 am 16. Suzi:

It’s about time. A lot of pro-lifers who blog noted the lack of coverage in Jim’s murder. The idea that Tiller was an ‘innocent’ victim is a joke, he was a mass murderer…but due to lies that started it all (Roe v. Wade), he was ‘within the law’ (sort of like how slavery USED to be ‘legal’). His murderer was NOT part of some group, he was a ‘lone gunman’. Just because the murderer of Jim Poullion killed another person that day does not mean his killing of Jim was NOT motivated by the ‘pro-life’ stance he held, it was. This man just decided one day to go out and kill people he didn’t like, for various reasons. He did not like ‘the sign man’ nor his message.
Thanks for pointing out this issue LaShawn. I don’t read any newspapers, so I didn’t realize they were finally seeing this issue as important. And just like seeing images of the Holocaust, or of war, seeing this war against the unborn IS important. More children die from abortion daily than many wars’ ‘body counts’. We are (rightly) appalled by the death toll from 9/11, but the number that were killed that day is pretty much the number that are taken by abortion everyday!
And as to ‘marching’ anywhere…just like in all ‘callings’, everyone has to choose their battles, but everyone should do so with as much information as possible. Informed decisions lead to better choices.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:43 am 17. Delia:

Your Commie, criminal mind does nothing for me, Moho.

As much as you don’t like me saying it, I wouldn’t want one of YOUR children aborted either.

Pictures of aborted, innocent children need to be shown to people who are apathetic about the fact that it is KILLING a child.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:45 am 18. Moho:

Do these horrifying images make you want to march on Washington to end funding for Israel? Does it make you want to prevent your country from doing such things in your name? Or do you only care about children before they’re born?

Delia, what always makes me laugh is that you people have so little grounding in reason and consistency of ideas, that when someone offers up an analogy to test your ideas, you’re simply unable to understand the purpose. Here it is broken down for you: if you oppose A when X does it, then you must also oppose A when Y does it. Otherwise, you are simply applying your prejudices, and reasoning inconsistently. Bringing up the issue of Iraq is perfectly valid in such a case. Because you contend that these photos of unborn “children” might have an impact on those who support abortion, you must also support the idea that showing photos of dead born children would make Americans turn away from financial support of Israel and from the US’s own war-making. To do otherwise–to care about the deaths of children unknown to when they are fetuses, but not when they are born children killed with your tax dollars simply discounts you from having a serious opinion. Finally, this is why ignorant people like you shouldn’t home school their children. You’re incapable–and more importantly, unwilling–of empowering them with even the most marginal powers of reason.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:47 am 19. Delia:

No, Moho. This isn’t an article about ‘war’ or comparing ‘war’ or ‘war’ victims to violence.

Just like, say… the evil of Islam and Muslim men beheading women isn’t about ‘Abortion’ either.

Veering away from the subject with the typical ‘war crime’ comparison crap is tiresome.

Don’t you Leftists have ANYTHING else to say about abortion besides, “Wahhhhh. You don’t oppose war!”

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:51 am 20. Delia:

16. Suzi:

“And just like seeing images of the Holocaust, or of war, seeing this war against the unborn IS important. More children die from abortion daily than many wars’ ‘body counts’. We are (rightly) appalled by the death toll from 9/11, but the number that were killed that day is pretty much the number that are taken by abortion everyday!”

THANK YOU. I couldn’t have said it better.

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:55 am 21. Gareeth:

LOL-Godwin’s Law has spawned a new meme. At some point in a blog argument the name Bush will ultimately be invoked and completely undo the entire argument. Well played Moho. You reached epic fail in…4 comments!

Oct 21, 2009 - 10:56 am 22. Delia:

The ‘right’ to kill one’s own offspring should just NOT be.

The partial birth aborted baby that has the audacity to survive and is left to die on a cold hospital table without any life-saving intervention is beyond heinous. There is no justification for something like that.

NONE.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:01 am 23. Moho:

Delia. LOL, just because you don’t like the comparison–or refuse to even acknowledge it–doesn’t mean you’ve countered it. You’ve literally revealed that your opinion is baseless, and driven inherently by your own prejudices rather than any reasoning. Its just that you’re too stupid to know it! It really is breathtaking to behold. Again, my sympathies to your home-schooled daughter.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:04 am 24. Bilgeman:

#21 Gareeth:
“LOL-Godwin’s Law has spawned a new meme. At some point in a blog argument the name Bush will ultimately be invoked and completely undo the entire argument.”

Lord I hope so!

Only what would we do with the vast empty stretches of bandwidth when the Leftie side of the blogosphere suddenly just goes silent?

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:11 am 25. Delia:

No, Moho. Your idiocy is baseless.

If there were no wars, if the whole earth was singing kumbaya and smoking peace pipes you’d STILL believe it is A-OKAY to kill an unborn child.

RIGHT????

RIGHT.

YOU FAIL.

And, as much as it galls you, your mother didn’t abort YOUR sorry ass.

LIVE with it.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:13 am 26. Delia:

24. Bilgeman:

“Only what would we do with the vast empty stretches of bandwidth when the Leftie side of the blogosphere suddenly just goes silent?”

The peace would be deafening.

*crickets*

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:16 am 27. MGM:

Do you oppose the death penalty? Are you willing to help these poor women out with your tax dollars to make sure these children don’t grow up poor and their basic human needs are met? Based on the poeple you have chosen to be your voice you don’t. Lets cut funding for the poor and not give them medical aid except the emergency room. If you can make through all that we will pay for your college but at a high fixed interest rate so you can raise a family in poverty and complete the cycle. Plus you act like abortions are a liberal thing. Rich conservatives have them too!

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:22 am 28. Sapwolf:

I watched on Youtube all 5 parts (they had it split) of “Silent Scream”. Anybody who can be pro-abortion after witnessing a baby trying to get away from the abortionist’s instruments and even see where the child appears to be crying out in anguish as they are slaughtered, just doesn’t even have a heart anymore.

There is no excuse for abortion outside of protecting the ‘life’ of the mother.

Think of the women who have had an abortion and then afterwards learn what they actually did.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:26 am 29. Sapwolf:

To MGM:

Yes, I oppose the death penalty.

Yes, to a certain degree, but not to destroy their spirit or initiative. i used to do St. Vincent de Paul work and many of the clients were assisted with young children. It is not the government’s job. It is YOUR moral responsibility, and you can’t push it off to some faceless bureaucracy that has only its own interests in mind.

Every pro-life person I have met and worked with also is for extending assistance to a woman in need who lets her child live. Also, the option of adoption is presented too at many places like “Choose Life of Alabama”.

To kill a human being for convenience is evil. It always has been. Why do you think the Nazis killed people? It was not convenient to have these people cluttering up the racial mix in Germany.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:37 am 30. Moho:

If there were no wars, if the whole earth was singing kumbaya and smoking peace pipes you’d STILL believe it is A-OKAY to kill an unborn child.

Yes, of course. Because I’ve already said that I believe that a woman has the right to do with the biological processes of her body as she wishes, its not killing an unborn child. The woman has primacy over her biological processes. As do all humans. Thus, my support for abortion has nothing to do with killing. Its you that have put “killing” a child into the equation. Since its you that believes that an abortion is a murder of an unborn child completely equal to the murder of a born child, then you should have a similar revulsion to killing a born child. You should have put all of the energy you put into stopping abortion into preventing the invasion of Iraq and the funding of Israel’s many operations into Gaza, which leave corpses very similar to the ones you think are so important to convincing people to oppose abortion. But you don’t. You believe its appropriate to kill children with your tax money when your government tells you to, but you don’t believe that a woman should be able to “kill” [your words] a gestating fetus [which could not live without her biological processes] in her own body.

This is probably the last time I’ll make you look like an idiot here. At least for a while. I really don’t like you people, but even I can’t bring myself to kick someone so many times once they’re down.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:37 am 31. Delia:

27. MGM,

Yippee! Another ‘eugenics’ believer. Hey, let’s just sterilize all the poor people by spiking their water rather than educating them. YEAH! That’s the ticket. Why teach a person to fish and care for themselves when you can just throw a fish at them and laugh because they’ll starve the next day anyhow.

28. Sapwolf:

“Think of the women who have had an abortion and then afterwards learn what they actually did.”

My mother did and it haunts her to this day.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:40 am 32. Sapwolf:

Also to MGM:

Abortions are a liberal thing. It has to do with liberals and their utilitarianism. A rich social conservative will not get an abortion or push another to get one. Now, there are people who are conservative on say economic issues who might be liberal on abortion, and it would be far more likely to have them get an abortion.

Also, you obviously didn’t know that the Left in the USA is wealthier that the Right. All the Wall Street bankers supported Obama and their companies support the Democratic Party FAR MORE than they support the GOP.

You have ignored the change in demographics. The Dem Party is more the party of Big Business, while the GOP is clearly the party of small and medium size business.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:43 am 33. Moho:

SAP

Anybody who can be pro-abortion after witnessing a baby trying to get away from the abortionist’s instruments and even see where the child appears to be crying out in anguish as they are slaughtered, just doesn’t even have a heart anymore.

Do you also oppose the meat industry? Do you oppose using single-celled life forms for experimentation. They too try to move away from pain and danger. Do you avoid killing ants? They also feel pain and move away from the source of pain. What I’m telling you here is if your definition of human life is simply reacting to pain, then you won’t even be able to eat a burger tonight because you’ll be eating the equivalent of a fetus. Every living thing, sentient or not, human or not, moves away from pain. Its the most basic biological response that even creatures without functioning brains or organs possess.

There is no excuse for abortion outside of protecting the ‘life’ of the mother.
Why should this be an excuse at all, per se? Certainly, if the fetus is a life form equivalent to any human, then the woman has no de facto right to life over that of the infant. We would have to create a very sophisticated set of protocols to know which life is more important. I’m sure you have plenty of suggestions for making that decision. Or are you arguing that the fetus is not a fully functioning life form that is equivalent to a human being? Is that why the mother deserves to live to a greater degree than the fetus? Are you saying that the fetus is not a human being with the same rights as any other human under the constitution?

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:43 am 34. Thomas_L.....:

“I really don’t like you people,” says Moho.
No sh*t, Shakespeare? You can end your suffering any time you want though, Oh Martyred One. We won’t miss you.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:45 am 35. Delia:

There is NOTHING to ‘like’ about war either. It’s scary, it’s horrific and it’s brutal and it has NOTHING to do with ABORTION.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:47 am 36. Delia:

“its not killing an unborn child”

Yes, Moho, it IS killing an unborn child.

Do I have to school you on this? Those tiny fingers, tiny toes and that little baby face is a HUMAN BEING and you’d be more than fine with a woman legally having that child snuffed out as a form of ‘birth control’.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:48 am 37. Moho:

Thomas L…I wasn’t complaining when I said I don;t like you people. Its exactly the reason I come here. To point out your inconsistent and baseless opinions. This is the logic of it: I don’t like what people like you have to done to our discourse and are doing to our nation. I don’t like you. I enjoy coming here to rub your noses in your own stupidity.

It makes it more enjoyable for me when you cry out that the pain is too much and beg me to leave, as you just did. It makes me want to continue all the more.

Oct 21, 2009 - 11:51 am 38. Delia:

No, Moho.

You come here because you’re lonely, you don’t have a life or a wife prospect [little lone a 'baby' prospect] and you’re a negative, mind-numbingly stupid spawn of Earthworm Jim.

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:00 pm 39. Moho:

Delia: If it makes you feel better about your piss poor performance in the thinking department, I won’t deprive you of your conception of me. Enjoy!

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:09 pm 40. Guilty:

Moho, On December 15, 1987, 10pm. I had an abortion…to this day the emotional pain is unbearable at times. I killed my baby! I know more women who are in silent pain from doing this than I care to count. So, Moho, think of the women who are pressured by a-holes like you so you can get your jollies then forget about the hell you’ve left someone in. STFU, you have no idea what you are talking about!

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:22 pm 41. Delia:

39. Moho,

You’re a mental midget of the lowest caliber.

Thank you for the tasty lunch.

mmmmmmmm trolls

The other-other white meat.

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:23 pm 42. Thomas_L.....:

“I really don’t like you people,” says Moho.

It’s only because I read quickly and can’t help see some of your “thoughts” that I have any idea what you are spewing. Don’t expect me to actually read what you have to say though. You know. Just like you don’t actually read any of the essays you comment on.

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:24 pm 43. Delia:

An article ‘relevant’ to the topic at hand:

http://www.operationrescue.org/noblog/whistleblowers-tell-abortion-horror-stories/

NSFL (Not Safe For Lunch) warning.

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:33 pm 44. Bilgeman:

MoHo:
“Do you oppose using single-celled life forms for experimentation. They too try to move away from pain and danger.”

You seem to be admitting here that an unborn baby feels pain and recognizes danger.

That’s a step in the right direction.

For my part, I’m all for contraception. We might still need abortions in rare instances, but mostly it will become a problem to which laundering is largely the solution.

Don’t like abortion? Then do what’s necesary to prevent it’s necessity.

Abstain or use birth-control.

I’ll gladly take the lumps from the Almighty for having worn a rubber sheath on my “tallywhacker” or having a plastic doo-hickey up inside my “happy place” than suffer the punishment for having an unborn child’s brain sucked out and then being torn apart by the curette.

Any effin’ day of eternity.

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:50 pm 45. Delia:

“I won’t deprive you of your conception of me”

-Just as I won’t deprive you of your MISconception of me.

Oct 21, 2009 - 12:55 pm 46. Delia:

Would these same people who are so ‘comfortable’ with abortion eat a steaming plate of fetus? There’s a frightened part of me that actually thinks there are some people that might. Why ‘waste’ the ‘meat’?

Ugh. I just grossed myself out.

Oct 21, 2009 - 1:28 pm 47. Thomas_L......:

“I really don’t like you people,” says Moho.

“You people?”

Oct 21, 2009 - 1:58 pm 48. Slveryder:

Although this thread is significantly nastier than I prefer to comment in, I do agree with the article itself. I have been anti-abortion since I found an anti-abortion brochure in the trash at a local department store bathroom and saw a picture of a charcoal-aborted fetus. I think I was 6 or 8. Since my mom had taught me about babies as actual biological development rather than “the stork puts a baby in mommy’s tummy,” I did understand that I was looking at a dead baby and that it had been killed. As I got older and learned about the why’s and how’s, it only cemented my opposition.
As far as I’m concerned, a woman has the right not to have sex. That is where her rights begin and end. You have sex, you take the risk (with or without birth control which is never foolproof) It’s a baby with it’s own DNA and identity.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:06 pm 49. Moho:

Ha ha ha….Thomas L…the “you people” thing again. One of the reason I keep using this to refer to the people posting here, is because it elicits such a predictable and two-faced retreat to the very attitudes you are usually critiquing in others–the rush to judgment that a statement is bigoted. Tell me, what does you people mean in the context that you’ve understood it. Thomas, I really want to know…

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:13 pm 50. Moho:

Misconception? Everything I’ve written about you Delia is based on your statements and your own infantile form of argument and logic. I feel no need to know anymore about nor guess.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:14 pm 51. Moho:

Guilty:

Appeal to emotion much?
Moho, On December 15, 1987, 10pm. I had an abortion…to this day the emotional pain is unbearable at times. I killed my baby! I know more women who are in silent pain from doing this than I care to count. So, Moho, think of the women who are pressured by a-holes like you so you can get your jollies then forget about the hell you’ve left someone in. STFU, you have no idea what you are talking about!

Ha! You know nothing about my experience. To assume that I am a man in the first place and not a woman who’s had an abortion is complete stupidity. If the latter were the case, it would completely invalidate your point [such as it is]. Secondly, rights force no one to do anything. The right of freedom of speech did not compel you to come here and blather, nor did my support of it have anything to do with your opinion. I personally don’t care whether you aborted your baby or not, nor if you feel guilty about it. It was your choice. Funny, how personal responsibility flies out the window for authoritarians [er, I mean Republicans]. The only advice I can give you is to not abort any more babies and to seek counseling. DOn’t whine to me about it; simply supporting the right to abort your baby doesn’t make me complicit in it, any more than supporting the second amendment makes me a party to a shooting.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:20 pm 52. Delia:

47. Thomas_L……:

“You people?”

Thomas, that’s ‘regressive’ think. The trolls have whipped themselves into a frenzy now that saying, “We won, you lost” is such a hollow, sad, impotent, enzyte/viagra ‘victory’.

KILL YOUR BABYYYYYYYYY! It’s your right! It’s your womb! Let the baby die on the table and suffer unimaginable horrors! SICKENING.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:23 pm 53. Moho:

Would these same people who are so ‘comfortable’ with abortion eat a steaming plate of fetus?

Do you feel comfortable with the idea of expelling feces? Does that mean you would eat a steaming pile of it? Oh wait…don’t answer that.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:24 pm 54. Delia:

“simply supporting the right to abort your baby doesn’t make me complicit in it”

Yes, it does.

Just like you accuse the ‘wingers’ of being complicit in ‘war mongering’…

Oh-noes! 0bama is a a war-monger now too!

Thank g’ness for that shiny, purdy ‘peace’ prize he was awarded.

Your treatment of ‘Guilty’ is despicable. She had an abortion and you treat her as if she should just ‘mop up’ the emotional hurt and pain with a doc visit and ‘deal’.

MH, you need to up your emotional quotient for which you are sorely lacking on every level.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:36 pm 55. Delia:

“Do you feel comfortable with the idea of expelling feces?”

WOW, Moho! You equate ripping an unborn baby from a womb with taking a ‘dump’?

I promised myself I’d never let an a-hole troll make me cry but…

Damnit.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:38 pm 56. Peter Singer is one of humanity's great monsters:

“Why should this be an excuse at all, per se?”

I guess looking up the concept of triage is a little too complicated, eh? Many people can’t afford to feed their infant anything but the milk from the mother’s breasts, I guess in your mind the mother has every right to withhold her milk and let the infant starve to death, after all, the mother has the right to her body.

The pro-abortion position is so full of inconsistencies based on arbitrary conclusions about the nature of life that it is hardly worth taking the time to argue with, but it’s core message is clear- no one should have to accept responsibility for their own foolish choices.

Oct 21, 2009 - 2:54 pm 57. Moho:

Delia, you are allergic to logic. Your metaphor is upside down and asinine. I just showed you that. Equating comfort with a process, no matter how repellant, to wanting to eat its product has to be the dumbest thing I’ve read here. And I’ve read your stuff before! You set a new standard for obtuseness, you have every right to cry.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:14 pm 58. David W. Lincoln:

The NY Times basically accused pro-life people of being dishonest. Circulation fell to such an attempt that the Gray old lady was looking at fading away. So, they are attempting to bring back
those whom they sneered at.

In all honesty, would the world be worse off without the NY Times? I say no.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:15 pm 59. Moho:

Just like you accuse the ‘wingers’ of being complicit in ‘war mongering’…

Did you or did you not support the war in Iraq? The difference is that while I support the right of ‘Guilty” to do whatever she wants to with her right to privacy, I don’t necessarily support the specific circumstances of her abortion. Likewise, while I support, in theory, the idea that a nation has the right to defend itself, I don’t support nor did I support the war in Iraq nor the war in Afghanistan. I still don’t support it, I don’t care if its Obama or Palin.

Your turn. My guess is that you don’t have the integrity to answer.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:16 pm 60. Guilty:

Moho…I am not a right winger, I believe in personal choice and responsibility, I don’t believe the government should dictate what occurs within the bedrooms of America or the individual freedoms of adults. I do believe the government should protect our rights, our real rights and that includes life. A baby in the womb is a human life, you’ve lowered it feces and ants. What I went through, millions of women go through everyday, and millions of them regret it…it’s murder…according to Rahm Emanuel’s brother an infant can be aborted.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:20 pm 61. Delia:

Moho,

You are allergic to reality.

Using stem cells from fetal tissue when it’s not scientifically warranted and is morally reprehensible is along the same lines as EATING OUR OWN.

Damn. You fall into my traps so easily, Mighty Mouse.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:26 pm 62. Moho:

A baby in the womb is a human life, you’ve lowered it feces and ants. What I went through, millions of women go through everyday, and millions of them regret it…

And millions don’t! I know plenty of women who would frankly be offended by your presumption that you can speak for them in any way, or bargain away their rights because you regret your decision. I can tell you that I know at least 10 women who’ve had abortions and they would be sickened by your manipulative bs.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:36 pm 63. Mike Sheard:

“The Times they are a changing…” I hope!

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:37 pm 64. Delia:

Guilty,

Our resident troll is a cruel and unusual one and thank you for sharing your personal story. I hope you are okay and have forgiven yourself. I can’t even imagine the hurt and inner turmoil you must feel.

Some men would like to think that an ‘abortion’ is like spurting out some semen into a kleenex or grunting out a turd into a toilet.

Sick.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:43 pm 65. Delia:

BTW TrollMO,

Abortion is not a ‘natural’ bodily function.

Yes, miscarriages happen but they are not the ‘norm’.

Abortion is a denigration of womanhood and the very fact that we are the bringers of life.

We should not be the bringers of death.

Ever.

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:48 pm 66. Delia:

Why can’t women just kill children randomly in or OUT of the womb?

Poor Susan Smith.

*hork*

Oct 21, 2009 - 3:52 pm 67. Moho:

Delia, I’d wager I know more about its impact than you, though I don’t see why that should have any impact on a woman’s right to choose.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:12 pm 68. Guilty:

Moho, so the women say…only a very few people know my inner turmoil. Others that even know about it don’t know how I feel. I’ve counseled young women and know the numbers who are in pain. I have pity on you and your female friends who take offense to someone mourning the loss of the life of a baby.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:22 pm 69. Guilty:

In a 1934 letter, Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, wrote to her financial sponsor, Clarence Gamble (the Proctor & Gamble heir) :

“We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:27 pm 70. Guilty:

According to “Klan Parenthood,” A black baby is three times more likely to be
murdered in the womb than a white baby. Since 1973, abortion has reduced the black population by over 25 percent. Twice as many African-Americans have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined. Every three days, more African-Americans are killed by abortion than have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history. About 13 percent of American women are black, but they submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.”

Moho is a racist.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:27 pm 71. Beth, just south of Berkeley and just east of San Francisco:

From Moho’s first comment in this thread:

“Tiller was the only doctor in his region performing that particular abortion service.”

That particular abortion service being third-trimester abortions, and his office has said he did 500 a year. That’s 10 a week, or one in the morning and one in the afternoon. From what I’ve read, Kansas law allows this for the health of the mother, which includes the very stretchable category of “mental health.”

I don’t think one has to believe that any abortion after conception is a great moral wrong, unless done in self-defense to spare the mother death or mayhem, to be troubled by this routine doing-in of what were likely viable fetuses. I wouldn’t trust anyone who doesn’t find this disturbing.

Nor would I trust anyone who, instead of seeing the various Born Alive Infant Protection Acts as basic human kindness and decency, considers them attempts to get the anti-abortion camel’s nose into the tent.

Perspective, people. Perspective.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:33 pm 72. Delia:

Every time one of us brings out the true nature of a Leftist we have done a good deed imho.

We are dealing with the lowest rungs.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:41 pm 73. Delia:

70. Guilty:

‘Klan parenthood, indeed’

“Moho is a racist.”

The ‘eugenic’ movement is the latest ‘regressive’ movement.

Extermination.

Oct 21, 2009 - 4:50 pm 74. Your Trollcat is on the Roof!:

Why do you guys engage this “MOHO” character?

He staggers into many pajamasmedia blogs, takes an enormous dump and stumbles off. He must smirk all day, working in his troll booth, waiting to run home so he can see what lame-ass bothered to respond to his latest rant.

Can you imagine being that character in real life? That is f—ing sad. Come on, people, don’t encourage this stuff with feedback. It’s boring. Unless Moho and Delia are the same person…

Oct 21, 2009 - 5:27 pm 75. Bilgeman:

#55 Delia:
“WOW, Moho! You equate ripping an unborn baby from a womb with taking a ‘dump’?”

I think old MoHo has just given us an extra-special inside glimpse into his or her subjective perception of his or her own personal and private life and innate dignity.

If you MoHold yourself to be little more than a lump of dung, then it’s very easy to extend that opinion to other people, and supremely easy to project it onto the defenseless among us.

MoHo, you might think this a quaint notion, but have a care for your immortal soul.
Some of us believe that you pay in the hereafter for what you do in this life.

And thus, YOUR hereafter might be a very short one indeed…a few milliseconds of the perception of pain before your brain gets sucked out of your fetal cranium.

I support President Clinton, abortions should be safe, legal and RARE.

And in now way to be dismissed as equivalent to flushing something down a toilet.

Oct 21, 2009 - 5:46 pm 76. steveg:

Delia….The only lives leftist cultist care about are terrorist, cop killers, and abortionist.

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:25 pm 77. Delia:

74.,

“Unless Moho and Delia are the same person…”

You must be new here or reallllllllly dense.

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:25 pm 78. Delia:

P.S., ‘74′,

While I agree that engaging trolls is tiresome, if you can actually get them to reveal their true selves then I think it’s worthwhile.

What did I (and hopefully others) get out of this arg with MoHole?

1). ‘War’ is a lame Leftist arg that doesn’t have anything to do with ABORTION. Would Lefty give up abortion if ALL war was gone? Nope. So, Lefty only brings ‘war’ up in a lame, obfuscating attempt at conjecture.

2). Women’s ‘rights’. Lefty throws that around willy nilly even though there is plenty of harm done to a woman via abortion. Lefty also ignores late term aborted babies dying a slow, painful death and considers aborting a child akin to defecation.

3). Leftists have absolutely NO compassion for the woman who has the abortion or the aborted baby. ‘Abortion’ as a ‘right’ is just another terminology the Left uses for convenience with little care to the PEOPLE.

If anything, MOHO is the prime example of why abortion is wrong and why Leftists are nucking futz!

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:42 pm 79. Moho:

Some of us believe that you pay in the hereafter for what you do in this life.

I feel sorry for you then, because you’re obviously going straight to hell.

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:44 pm 80. Delia:

76. steveg,

Sad…but, true.

You forgot ‘Child rapists’ though.

*cringe*

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:54 pm 81. Moho:

Guilty..

A black baby is three times more likely to be
murdered in the womb than a white baby. Since 1973, abortion has reduced the black population by over 25 percent. Twice as many African-Americans have died from abortion than have died from AIDS, accidents, violent crimes, cancer, and heart disease combined. Every three days, more African-Americans are killed by abortion than have been killed by the Ku Klux Klan in its entire history. About 13 percent of American women are black, but they submit to over 35 percent of the abortions.”

Moho is a racist.

Okay, let’s assume that your completely asinine formulation is true, and that I am somehow advocating some kind mass extermination for black people. This is quite an assumption on your part, and also quite hilarious given that you people are always pitching fits about being called racists for the tacit effects of the policies you espouse. Forgetting all of that, forgetting the incredibly stupid point you are making, not to mention the fact that your facts are of dubious prominence. Taking you seriously for a moment, you can answer the following questions:

1) Is the anti-abortion movement majority black?

2) Are black women being forced to have those abortions?

3) Black men are disproportionately sent to death row…do you support the elimination of the death penalty?

4) Black people are disproportionately members of the armed forces due to lack of opportunities in the civilian world…do you support providing affirmative action programs so that black men no longer have to join the military as a way of providing for themselves and their families?

I can guess the answer to all these questions. Abortion is thankfully a choice, and if African Americans make that choice more often than others, there’s nothing for me to say about it. How do you even know I’m not black.

The longer this has gone on, the more I’ve become convinced that you’re simply a troll yourself, pretending to have had an abortion to guilt people into buying what you can’t effectively argue. You’re pathetic even if you are what you say you are. My girlfriend had an abortion, she felt bad about it and she moved on–she’d never use that to guilt others into doing what she thinks is right. That’s because she has integrity, unlike you.

Oct 21, 2009 - 6:56 pm 82. Moho:

Beth…

I don’t think one has to believe that any abortion after conception is a great moral wrong, unless done in self-defense to spare the mother death or mayhem, to be troubled by this routine doing-in of what were likely viable fetuses. I wouldn’t trust anyone who doesn’t find this disturbing.

Why spare the mother’s life? Why is she more important than the fetus, if the its viable. If its viable, then its a human. Then killing it should never be condoned. If you can’t explain the moral calculus for making a decision for why, of two humans of equal value, the mother receives de facto primacy, then you’ve no business making such a stupid argument. As long as the fetus is in the woman’s body, its her choice to make, even if its in there doing the robot and frying chicken. None of you seem capable of understanding the moral implications of doing otherwise, of literally enslaving women to the processes of their body, because you are calling their baby a human being with more rights than a born woman.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:02 pm 83. Fantom:

Folks, Moho is like those who said slavery was just a choice. Sure it needs to be rare. But who are we to say a Black is anything more than 3/5th human.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:15 pm 84. Delia:

“My girlfriend had an abortion, she felt bad about it and she moved on__”

More revelations from HM!

Damn if ‘Guilty’ wasn’t spot on about you, TrollMo. You are absolute scum of the earth for discounting her personal feelings and experience just because it doesn’t fit in your convenient, twisted ‘box’.

Black/Brown/White/Yellow/Pink/Red/Funky people need to be educated and LOVED and NOT looked down on and certainly NOT aborted.

Our country has a long way to go and Left/Right/Whatever ain’t cuttin’ the mustard.

I managed to have only one child, she was all I wanted (much to my husband’s chagrin). I’ve never been on ‘birth control’ in my life.

ABORTION SHOULD NOT BE BIRTH CONTROL.

The ‘day after’ pill I do support.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:18 pm 85. Delia:

“literally enslaving women to the processes of their body”

PUHLEASE! Preach that to my monthly cycle!

You know what has freed women? Maxi pads and tampons! Birth-Control via ‘pills’ and ‘condoms’ was a bonus.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:21 pm 86. Delia:

82. Trollmo,

By your idiotic logic then… All women should just have their uteruses removed because they have menstruation against their will.

Do you realize how many of us women HATE our ‘periods’ with a PASSION?

But, just as menstruation is normal and natural, so is sex and so is procreation and the results thereof.

Rather than dumbing down our society more with ‘abortion’, let’s smarten them up.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:27 pm 87. digitalis:

Mo. “A woman has a right to do whatever she wants with her body…” So you are for prostitution and against Obamacare? A woman’s body cannot be used for sex if it is her will? The government healthcare will put that body under the ownership of the Fed. Doubt it? You will need PERMISSION for medical procedures. I guess the only one that will be sacrosanct will be the Sacrament of Abortion. The fed can’t put his paws on a woman’s womb but they will be able to manhandle them evry other body part and procedurs. It’s amazing how the right to privacy and to your own body and selfhood with respect to that body begins and ends with abortion. But if your first statement is a fact then why is prositution illegal in most states? How does one square the rights cited inherent in the right to choose an abortion but those rights are non existent in the two examples I gave. There is no logic to it. Just thought I would throw that out for your response.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:28 pm 88. Moho:

Peter Singer:

Here’s some advice on logic:

Many people can’t afford to feed their infant anything but the milk from the mother’s breasts,

Untrue. State and federal agencies exist that offer aid, so that a child should never suffer hunger because of poverty.

I guess in your mind the mother has every right to withhold her milk and let the infant starve to death, after all, the mother has the right to her body.

Yes, she does. However, as I mentioned, there are no shortages of free food programs for mothers with dependent children.

Your problem here was that you based your entire argument on a bad assumption. You compounded that with another assumption–that an infant need necessarily starve to death because its mother prefers not to breast feed. In my experience–especially today, practically all so-called pro-life arguments are similarly asinine. You people feel something, and then you use your limited reasoning skills trying to find a way to make it seem sensible. In a normally functioning society, your opinion leaders would be there to catch you. Its a given that not all people are capable of making the inferences necessary to make wise policy decisions. But they are happy to keep you ignorant, because it makes you volatile, and the volatility can upset campaigns. You’re stooges, nothing more.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:48 pm 89. Guilty:

Moho, you people don’t get it. That urge to defend abortion is your guilt. Peace.

Oct 21, 2009 - 7:57 pm 90. Bilgeman:

Delia:
“Do you realize how many of us women HATE our ‘periods’ with a PASSION?”

And does this varmint realize how many of us men HATE womens’ ‘periods’ with a passion, TOO?

Oct 21, 2009 - 9:05 pm 91. Peter Singer is one of humanity's great monsters:

“Untrue. State and federal agencies exist that offer aid, so that a child should never suffer hunger because of poverty.”

Since the whole world lives in the US, and/or the US is the only place abortions are performed, am I right? I’m not surprised that you’re a fan of the Obama, he tends to convey the impression that he thinks he’s the center of things too.

The saddest thing is that you actually think that your ideas follow some sort of logic, and that you’re ridiculous, arbitrary assumptions somehow give you solid ground to make sanctimonious judgments on what is or isn’t logic. Frankly, I prefer to base my ideas at least partially in empiricism(I know that you think that regurgitating half-baked ideas that other people feed you, but try observing and thinking for yourself sometime, it isn’t as painful as you think), which has been fairly settled on the beginning of human life for some time now. Of course, that’s not something they would have taught you in your _______ studies class, so I can understand how you’re behind on things.

Oct 22, 2009 - 1:23 am 92. David W. Lincoln:

The last time I checked, Life magazine, before it first went belly up in the early 1970s did a series on the unborn child. This buttresses the point that all of us have gone through various stages of life, and those stages began before birth. Put another way, each person was at the stage of life where there was just an itty bitty number of cells.

It is easier for the rudderless revisionists to ignore this, or to throw a tantrum, than it is for them to admit they are wrong. Their loss, and ultimately the loss of everyone because they
are not pulling their weight in the building of communities.

Oct 22, 2009 - 6:07 am 93. Moho:

Peter Singer…my mistake. Since I was talking about constitutional rights, and because we actually have no ability to stop abortion elsewhere, I thought we were talking about the American context. I’ll do better to read your empirically based mind better in the future.

Oct 22, 2009 - 7:05 am 94. Now and Then:

84. Delia:

“The ‘day after’ pill I do support.”

So, when does life begin?

Oct 22, 2009 - 7:28 am 95. Moho:

Now and Then–>

Life begins whenever they say it does. And everyone else must live by that definition.

Oct 22, 2009 - 8:10 am 96. BMoon:

I can only imagine the vitriol, faux-outrage, and slander this NYT reporter must be facing from their PC-addled colleagues and media peers for not having suppressed the truth, but shockingly, REPORTING IT.

Oct 22, 2009 - 8:42 am 97. Thomas_L.....:

“I really don’t like you people,” says Moho.

Oct 22, 2009 - 8:44 am 98. Moho:

Thomas…that’s what I said. Feel free to tell me what’s objectionable about that statement. Please do it. Nothing makes me happier than when the people who write here whine that vague phrases are “racism” towards them, even as they decry that the left is using their vague phrases to call them racists.

Oct 22, 2009 - 10:00 am 99. Delia:

90. Bilgeman:

“And does this varmint realize how many of us men HATE womens’ ‘periods’ with a passion, TOO?”

LMFAOOOOOOOOOO! Heh! SO TRUE! My husband just gave you a nod. haha
-

94.,

IMHO, life ‘begins’ when life can ‘feel’. When life is just beginning at the cellular level and there is no fully formed spinal column or cerebral cortex, pain obviously can’t happen.

Oct 22, 2009 - 1:35 pm 100. Thomas_L.....:

Life begins at conception. All else is sophistry. If you’re fine with ending that life before it reaches some arbitrary point that satisfies your conscience and appeals to your sense of logic, I guess that’s your “choice”. Dancing around the reality of the issue and ignoring the elephant in the room is a speciality of some people though. Support it or don’t support but look the damn thing in the eye.

Oct 22, 2009 - 2:45 pm 101. Beth, just south of Berkeley and just east of San Francisco:

Moho, #82:

“Why spare the mother’s life? Why is she more important than the fetus, if the its viable. If its viable, then its a human. Then killing it should never be condoned. If you can’t explain the moral calculus for making a decision for why, of two humans of equal value, the mother receives de facto primacy, then you’ve no business making such a stupid argument. As long as the fetus is in the woman’s body, its her choice to make, even if its in there doing the robot and frying chicken. None of you seem capable of understanding the moral implications of doing otherwise, of literally enslaving women to the processes of their body, because you are calling their baby a human being with more rights than a born woman.”

In one paragraph, Moho goes from saying I give the mother de facto primacy to saying I give a baby in the womb more rights than a born woman.

How does one frame a logical response to a logic-free post?

Any woman “enslav[ed] to the processes of [her] body” by being denied a right to abort a viable fetus has put herself in that position through (lawyerly term, sorry!) her own failure to mitigate damages. Many, if not most, commenters here will disagree with me when I point out that such an hypothetical “enslaved” woman, if she’d had a contraceptive failure and really isn’t in a position to raise a child, could at least have terminated her pregnancy in the first trimester, when 1/3 of all pregnancies end spotaneously and the embryo is nowhere near formed enough to survive on its own. You know, when there *might* be an argument that it’s still “potential human life.”

You don’t have to agree that human life–individual human life invested with full human rights–begins at conception to show through your actions that you believe human life means *something*. Where is the humanity in a third-trimester abortion not done in self-defense against likely death or mayhem? Where is the humanity in saying that if a woman doesn’t want her fetus to make it to birth, it’s okay to just throw it into the trash if it survives an abortion?

I have experienced a growing feeling of disgust as the NOW/NARAL “feminists” have become, in effect, pro-abortion fundamentalists whose sense of humanity I have had to question. How many other women have they lost in this manner, Moho? Is your haranguing, stereotyping and name-calling a desperate response to impending irrelevance and loss of political control?

Oct 22, 2009 - 4:04 pm 102. Moho:

Indeed, Thomas L., that’s the smartest thing you’ve said all day, and one reason I may ending up considering your claim to be a conservative. Framing the issue as a question of when life begins is a fool’s game. Unlike you, I can’t be certain it begins at conception. Indeed, the egg is alive and has the potential to become a child after conception. Altering the eggs natural cycle would then be no different than killing the child at conception, or at 2 months. The point is that the life has no ability to feed itself, it has no capacity to be aided by anyone other than the mother. It is she that must give birth to it, or submit to some other means of bringing it to the world. All of the investment and danger is hers; it is for all inents and purposes a part of her body which she allows to live. That’s her choice, her own health is tied into the that of the life, and so its her decision ultimately of what to do with it. Any other way of looking at it is to contemplate a two-tiered legal system whereby pregnant women are forced to deliver children, once pregnant.

Oct 22, 2009 - 4:16 pm 103. Delia:

100. Thomas_L…..,

You are right.

I’ve been being a hypocrite to even support the ‘day after’ pill even hypothetically because I know damned well I wouldn’t want my daughter or myself to use it.

I shouldn’t excuse snuffing out ‘life’ when ‘pain’ or ‘feeling’s are involved. Otherwise, we can excuse killing old/infirmed/imperfect people by giving them enough ‘drugs’ to not have to suffer ‘pain’.

Human life is human life.

LIFE.

Oct 22, 2009 - 4:20 pm 104. Delia:

Kill the crotch fruit at any stage!

Right, Moho?

Why call a mother who abandons or murders her newborn child a ‘murderer’? Why not just allow ALL WOMEN who bear children the ‘allowance’ of ‘manslaughter’ when/if they are unsatisfied with the children they produce? What if a woman gives birth and then decides, “Oh NO! I can’t afford this child. This child will be a perpetual teat-sucking burden on me!”… How come women can’t still ‘kill’ when the dirty deed of ‘birth’ has been ‘done’? How about the parents who have adult children living in their basements? Why can’t they just snuff ‘em out?

Someone get on the bat-channel to Moho’s mom! This could really go someplace!

Oct 22, 2009 - 4:36 pm 105. Moho:

Beth, I’m afraid I can’t understand the argument for you. If you can prove through argument that there was no logic in my statement, then I suggest you do that. If you don’t, like Delia, you are basically admitting you can’t understand the logic in the argument, and that you can’t admit that fact.

As for this:
Any woman “enslav[ed] to the processes of [her] body” by being denied a right to abort a viable fetus has put herself in that position through (lawyerly term, sorry!) her own failure to mitigate damages.

Its none of your concern what she did. And indeed, that’s the whole point. If she’s capable of seeking out an abortion and paying for it, then what should you have to say about it? She doesn’t need your permission, nor your consent.

Oct 22, 2009 - 4:44 pm 106. Delia:

Why call a mother who abandons or murders her newborn child a ‘murderer’? Why not just allow ALL WOMEN who bear children the ‘allowance’ of ‘manslaughter’ when/if they are unsatisfied with the children they produce? What if a woman gives birth and then decides, “Oh NO! I can’t afford this child. This child will be a perpetual teat-sucking burden on me!”… How come women can’t still ‘kill’ when the dirty deed of ‘birth’ has been ‘done’? How about the parents who have adult children living in their basements? Why can’t they just snuff ‘em out?

Oct 22, 2009 - 5:00 pm 107. Delia:

“Its none of your concern what she did. And indeed, that’s the whole point. If she’s capable of seeking out an abortion and paying for it, then what should you have to say about it? She doesn’t need your permission, nor your consent.”

So, following your loose drivel that you fake as logic…can a woman who gave birth to a child who misbehaves, has tantrums in public and causes her nothing but annoyance, embarrassment, money for ADD meds etc. be allowed to hire a hit-man to have her child assassinated?

Oct 22, 2009 - 6:13 pm 108. Delia:

Hell’s bells!

Maybe all of us women *YOUR MOTHERS* should just be allowed to kill all of you for ‘whatever infraction’ because you came from our womb and therefore we OWN you regardless of the fact that you were cut from the umbilical cord you are still the fruit of our womb (not to be confused with ‘fruit of the loom’).

WOMEN are all powerful! WE OWN ALL OF YOU! We can decide life and death! BWAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

Oct 22, 2009 - 7:57 pm 109. Now and Then:

103 Delia . . .

You didn’t thank me for putting you back on the path to righteous indignation, so clearly evidenced by your palette-cleansing mea culpa, so conveniently positioned before crotch fruit diatribe birthed a scant 16 minutes later and continuing unaborted (ooops, sorry, “unabated”) for three hours. I’ll guess we’ll just call it a convenient truth on your part. Though I must say it’s curious how a point of view so fundamental could be so transitory. Oh well, I guess I’ll just never understand the loose moorings of the conservative mind.

And since my question, “When does life begin?” served you so well, here’s another one for you to ponder, “When does life end?”

To principle! A toast to conviction! A prayer for genuine faith!

Oct 23, 2009 - 6:02 am 110. Thomas_L.....:

When does life end? That’s the best you can do? You’re an absolutely, disgustingly foul, loathsome sophist of a creature Every Single Time, aren’t you?

Oct 23, 2009 - 6:59 am 111. Delia:

“When does life end?”

This thread isn’t about attaining virgin goats in heaven, dill doh.

Oct 23, 2009 - 7:56 am 112. Now and Then:

110. Thomas_L

“You’re an absolutely, disgustingly foul, loathsome sophist of a creature”

Step up to the minimum, Thomas. (Yeah, that got ya, I know.)

Now about that question, When does life end? (If you must you can try a post-dodge ala Delia and suggest your belief or conviction is “hypothetical.”)

Twist away.

Oct 23, 2009 - 8:02 am 113. Delia:

Human life ends when the body dies.

Are we done being cutesy, dill doh?

Oct 23, 2009 - 8:17 am 114. Now and Then:

113 Delia . . .

Cutesy, eh? You don’t take well to facing your contradictions, which, by the way, will require far deeper reflection for you to reconcile than a few late night blog posts. You have to be wondering, “What DO I really believe?”

Don’t feel compelled to make any quick decisions on that matter. Take some time. Invest in quiet contemplation. Perhaps study the words and work of others. And then come to a thoughtful point of view that you can stick to. Don’t worry about what others here may think of you. If they can’t handle the fact that you were for the morning after pill before you were against it, and that you changed your belief on what is perhaps the most wrenching issue of our time over the course of 24 hours, well then, who needs em? Right?

I got your cutesy, Delia.

Hail Rush. Go Sarah.

Oct 23, 2009 - 10:44 am 115. Delia:

114. Now and Then,

“The morning after pill” is something I was ‘for’ because I was trying to look at ‘life’ far too scientifically rather than spiritually which was bad on me.

It finally struck me that my ‘excuse’ for being ‘for’ the morning after pill was that there was no pain or cerebral cortex involved rather than looking at life as true LIFE.

This is something I may never fully be able to contend with in my heart. Test tube babies, cloning, use of fetal stem cells etc. disturb me too.

The thing is…

Is abortion as birth-control right? Should it be legal? Should it be gov. subsidized?

My answer: NO.

P.S. I’m glad you and Moho’s mother didn’t kill you. Otherwise…this thread would be pretty sparse actually.

Oct 23, 2009 - 10:59 am 116. Beth, just south of Berkeley and just east of San Francisco:

Moho, #105:

“Beth, I’m afraid I can’t understand the argument for you. If you can prove through argument that there was no logic in my statement, then I suggest you do that. If you don’t, like Delia, you are basically admitting you can’t understand the logic in the argument, and that you can’t admit that fact.”

Surrealist #1: “Why did the chicken cross the road?”

Surrealist #2: “A fish.”

I knew this exchange was reminding me of something, and I’ve remembered. I would worry for my sanity if I could understand the “logic” in Moho’s statement to me, given the cognitive slippage it would take to do so (or more indulgence in “Oaksterdam’s” best than is prudent). Was it one sentence, or one paragraph, in which Moho was ascribing two mutually contradictory positions to me?

Meanwhile, there’s simply no logic in the statement that my declining to comply with Moho’s “demand” is an admission that either I’m not capable of doing so, or that it’s not possible to prove his/her/its statement attributing mutually contradictory positions to me is illogical. Besides, Moho, I don’t got to show you no steenkin’ badges … or let you frame this exchange. Which brings us back to:

#102: “it is for all intents and purposes a part of her body which she allows to live.” Not quite. It’s attached to her body, it’s enveloped in her body. It’s dependent upon her body for life–up to a certain point. Once it could live on its own if no longer attached to/enveloped by her body, what makes it her choice whether it gets to live or not? (Look at all the reduction ad absurdam chiming in to ask about a “right” to “fourth trimester abortion,” which Peter Singer has asserted.)

I think a demand much more pertinent to this discussion is that Moho explain at what point (if any?) it’s no longer the mother’s choice to “allow” a fetus/baby to continue existing, and provide a logical basis for whatever assertion that might be.

I will continue to state that it’s wrong to kill a viable fetus (babyescent?) except in legitimate self-defense, based on a fair reading of the principle of an inherent human right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Moho appears quite concerned with disabusing me of that notion (or simply abusing me if I don’t drop it), so I’m curious as to what “logic” might be able to do so.

Oct 23, 2009 - 11:49 am 117. Delia:

116. Beth,

It can get even crazier!

What about a woman who gets pregnant on purpose and changes her mind and wants to abort mid-pregnancy?

The LEFTISTS answer: That’s okay!

What about a woman who has sex for a ‘living’ and has multiple pregnancies aborted?

The LEFTISTS answer: That’s okay!

What about the partially aborted babies who are left to die on a table without medical intervention from the hospital staff?

The LEFTISTS answer: That’s okay!

‘Men’ like Moho want to be able to kill their offspring rather than take responsibility for what they have created by having sex. These are the same ‘men’ who would probably avoid paying child support at any cost.

Scum of the earth.

Oct 23, 2009 - 12:08 pm 118. Now and Then:

115. Delia:

That’s more like it. (DD is beneath you, not literally, but you know what I mean.)

Oct 23, 2009 - 1:24 pm 119. Moho:

Beth. I’m going to help you understand this. Here is the statement that you said contained two contradictory ideas:

“Why spare the mother’s life? Why is she more important than the fetus, if the its viable. If its viable, then its a human. Then killing it should never be condoned. If you can’t explain the moral calculus for making a decision for why, of two humans of equal value, the mother receives de facto primacy, then you’ve no business making such a stupid argument.

This is a series of questions posed to draw out the false assumptions in your argument. You are arguing that the baby is a human with individual rights. If that is so, then the woman cannot be given de facto primacy in the equation, even if her life is in danger. Because the life of the baby is also in danger, and both have equal claim and rights to life, then you cannot simply claim that its “ok” for a woman to have an abortion if her life is threatened by the pregnancy. It does not follow, unless it carries an implied assumption that the fetus is a lesser being than the mother. If, on the contrary, the woman is a human just like the baby, then we need another moral calculus to choose which life is more valuable. You won’t take it there because you haven’t explored the full nature of the argument that you are making. Nor will you.

Then this, which is my point:
As long as the fetus is in the woman’s body, its her choice to make, even if its in there doing the robot and frying chicken. None of you seem capable of understanding the moral implications of doing otherwise, of literally enslaving women to the processes of their body, because you are calling their baby a human being with more rights than a born woman.”

There is nothing contadictory here. The two sets of statements don’t relate to one another, yes, but they are not meant to, since one is based on your argument, and the other on mine. Again, one is a series of questions designed to highlight the lack of logic in your arguments. The other is a statement of my point of view.

Because you can’t understand either argument, you are seeking to simply claim that it doesn’t make sense. But you can’t do that, unless of course you expect everyone here to simply imagine it to be so. Given the nature of some of the arguments I see here, I think you’ve got a good shot at the latter.

Oct 23, 2009 - 1:39 pm 120. Delia:

118.,

Bless your precious heart, N&T. I truly hope you find happiness and love and a firm footing in this harsh climate of hatred.

We need each other.

We are the world.

We are the children.

All we need is love.

Time heals.

Time passages.

Phantom Menace.

PITA.

RUBBER meet GLUE

/sarc

Oct 23, 2009 - 1:48 pm 121. Delia:

Why spare the mother’s life?

Why spare any life?

Let’s all just kill, kill, kill.

Motherhood?

What motherhood?

Let the murdering commence!

*sigh*

Oct 23, 2009 - 5:23 pm 122. Now and Then:

120 Delia:

I’m already happy.

Oct 23, 2009 - 7:31 pm 123. Delia:

122. Now and Then:

“I’m already happy.”

You have a very odd way of showing it, my love.

Or…

Is love really hate disguised all pretty on a conjunction filled plate?

Are we all masturbating our minds here?

Have we escaped channel nothing for channel something to fill the void?

Is rhetoric rhetoric?

Oct 23, 2009 - 10:01 pm 124. Tresco:

I think the tide has started to go out on abortion. It peaked in the late 70s and early 80s. I’ve been to other sites (Huffington, Democratic Underground) and most of the time they don’t even use the word “abortion”. They say “choice”. Science and time are not the abortionistas friends. We are learning more about fetal development all the time. We now know that after 20 weeks a fetus is doing pretty much everything a born baby does. He or she moves, sleeps, sucks its thumb, dreams. At that time it probably recognizes its mother’s voice too. Somehow I don’t think that in 100 years many abortions will be either wanted or premitted.

Oct 24, 2009 - 7:38 am 125. Delia:

124. Tresco,

“Somehow I don’t think that in 100 years many abortions will be either wanted or permitted.”

I hope so. I truly hope so.

Oct 24, 2009 - 11:32 am 126. Joanne:

Per Your Trollcat is on the Roof #74

“Why do you guys engage this “MOHO” character?”

While I realize that arguing with this troll can be tempting, it also encourages him/her to satisfy the desperate needs of his/her ego. We all know that it’s a pointless argument. If you really want to oust MOHO, just don’t respond.

There’s plenty to be discussed on the subject of abortion among those who have different reasons for opposing it.

Oct 27, 2009 - 12:15 am 127. blue27:

If you know someone who needs healing from having
an abortion check out Rachels Vineyard.

Oct 29, 2009 - 6:00 pm 128. blue27:

A unique new life begins at conception– that is a
biological fact. Abortion ends that life, a life
never to be conceived in history again. Also, a mechanism
of action of birth control pills and injections, the
morning after pill, and IUD’s is to stop implantation
of the new life in the womb, which is also abortion.

Oct 29, 2009 - 6:27 pm 129. Danielle Dunsmore:

We all have seen commercials about saving abused and neglected animals. Cats and dogs that are beat up, injured and in bad shape are displayed for us to view. I thought to myself one night, why doesn’t a Pro-Life Organization put together a commercial flashing images of aborted babies? It would reach millions and show how evil and horrific abortion is. How would that fly?

Oct 30, 2009 - 11:26 am 130. Danielle:

Delia- Back to line 120.
Isn’t that an old 70’s song? It’s bothering me. I can’t seem to name that tune. Possibly a mix of songs of the 70’s and 80’s? Help.

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:46 pm 131. luther marvin walters:

news we are all guilty of the sin of abortion. JESUS was compelled to go to calvary because of this deadly sin against defenseless innocent precious babies.

Nov 16, 2009 - 5:27 pm 132. Geowyn:

To any female who wanted an abortion I would say “Fine, and as we rip the innocent life from your womb we will sterilize you. If you don’t want this baby why should you want one in the future?”

Nov 24, 2009 - 11:02 am