Pajamas Media

175 Comments

1. Bob:

In the battle between the bankers and those wielding pitchforks, our President stands with the pitchfork mob and doesn’t want to hear the views of the bankers. This is just one more example of why such a high percentage of non-Democrats think this guy is a disaster.

Apr 7, 2009 - 3:53 am 2. Alex:

“Community organizers were instrumental in forcing banks to give subprime loans to unqualified minority borrowers by using the “pitchforks” tactics — protesting in front of the banks, camping on the lawns of the bankers’ family houses, intimidating families, and suing in courts. After the bankers were sufficiently roughed up, a community organizer would show up at their office to “negotiate” the bank’s surrender in the form of bad loans and money for community organizations that pay community organizers for their “services.”

Are you able to give one example with names and dates; people, banks, and loan numbers…??

Furthermore this is not the cause of current banking environment, I was there when President Clinton signed banking deregulation in the late 90’s allowing bankers to run amok and issue worthless derivatives. They had been prohibited since regulations were placed on banking in 1934. That date should be important as it was the result of investigations into cause of the great depression.
Derivatives have nothing to do with sub prime mortgages, that is nonsense. There is a total of 15 trillion in US real estate, while there are over 600 Trillion in Derivatives, the numbers do not support your theory.

Creating with solution requires identifying the problem without prejudice.

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:12 am 3. tforeman@aol.com:

/reat analysis. Young Americans have no clue.

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:18 am 4. eon:

One of the conceits of American “progressives” is that they are inherently smarter, wiser, better-looking, and just naturally better than everyone else, including their “soulmates” in Europe, Russia, and elsewhere.

Which (to them) means that they can succeed where their predecessors (like Bukharin) failed, because those “foreigners” were simultaneously brilliant (philosophically) and stupid (in applications). The “progressives”, by comparison, are brilliant 24/7/365, under all conditions. (They even dream brilliantly- according to them.)

Which means that they’ll “get it right”, even when no one else ever could. They never even question whether or not they’ve got the right basic ideas; to them, the “theory” is sound as long as it is in synch with their dogmas- they just won’t make any mistakes when they apply it.

And for an encore, they’ll even make the phlogiston theory of combustion work. (It’s mystical- so it has to be right, you know.)

They’d be amusing, if the cost of their delusions wasn’t going to be so high.

And it will be the rest of humanity that will have to pay the bill.

clear ether

eon

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:37 am 5. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Oleg Atbashian, et al.
RE: It Could Be….

America’s organizer in chief could use a lesson from the pages of Russian history. — Oleg Atbashian

…that he already has.

I’m thinking specifically of how Lenin and Stalin dealt with the kulaks after they had consolidated power over the government, industry and the banks.

For the un-informed, kulaks were the middle-class land and business owners in Russia.

Specifically, they put the squeeze on them through legislation. And when the kulaks finally woke up and smelled the ‘coffee’ and revolted, they were ‘liquidated’. Over three million were sent off to ‘re-education’ camps. Not many survived the training pogrom.

And to think that Obama’s polisic mentor, Ayers, was discussing doing such with American kulaks once they came into power…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[History repeats itself....]

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:48 am 6. Brett:

The pitchforks aren’t aimed at the bankers, nor are they wielded by Obama’s profitless supporters. Rather, they are aimed by the productive at both Obama and those who voted for him.

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:56 am 7. Jess:

Alex,
As they say on the intarweb, YGTBKM. Google “Protest at lending office” or similar & presto, literally hundreds of articles appear, at your fingertips. The CRA/NC is especially illuminating…

J

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:57 am 8. Good Lt.:

>Creating with solution requires identifying the problem without prejudice.

Try it sometime, then.

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:58 am 9. Reiuxcat:

Gee Alex, the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) from the Jimmy Carter era rings no bells? You know, the act that Clinton and his democratic congress expanded, that required banks (or face huge fines) to make mortgage loans to minorities regardless of their ability to pay? All to reverse the terrible scourge of racism existing in the banking system. (Bad credit is certainly not the peoples fault, as surely it is thrust upon minorities by the “man”.)

Now just go do your own homework and wade through the thousands of foreclosures to show how many are what you claim and you’ll see that Mr. Atbashian statements are not as you claim.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:01 am 10. John Costello:

Alex,
The Community Investment Act was put on the books by Carter ad put on steroids during the Clinton Administration by Andrew Cuomo. The toxic paper consists mainly of mortgages that cannot be repaid. What brutal capitalist would force some unwilling proletarian to accept a loan that the bourgeois exploiter knows will never be repaid?

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:02 am 11. Dishman:

Alex, the pitchforks used on banks refers to “Greenlining Institute” and ACORN.

Tactics include disrupting bank offices and protesting at the schools of bank executives’ children.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:07 am 12. elvis:

“While some of today’s comparisons between Obama and communist dictators may go over the top, the general direction of such thinking is not without merit…”

Why start with an apology and then say it’s ok to think he is going in the wrong direction? Obama is over the top. Every thing he is doing is left of Karl Marx.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:10 am 13. pok:

The reductio ad absurdum of affirmative action.

This guy’s ignorance of the required reading for his job is breathtaking.

He’s a one trick pony: he can charm the ignorant: unfortunately, hoards of them have the right to vote.

If a survey could be taken of the professional diplomats he has encountered on his tour, dollars to doughnuts says they’re not so charmed.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:12 am 14. brian:

Alex – thanks to banking privacy laws, nobody has those names.

But Obama might know a few. He was ACORN’s lawyer in the 90s when they were suing banks.

Those derivatives were part of the package deal to get more loans made. The banks didn’t have the capital, so they were told to sell the loans to Fannie and Freddie. Well, F&F didn’t have explicit federal backing, so they packaged up the loans and sold them as securities. But since people didn’t trust the securities fully, they wanted insurance on them. Since the ratings on the securities were fake, AIG and others insured them happily.

And you get what we got. Gaming the system to loan money to people who have insufficient means to pay it back is a bad idea. That our government was the one calling the game is despicable.

We’ve identified the problem without prejudice. Your problem is that you see prejudice everywhere.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:20 am 15. EL Rider:

Alex,
I have watched ACORN’s protests in downtown Chicago, what you have written concerning ACORN is flat out wrong and your silly request for “loan numbers” displays just how ignorant you are on the subject. ACORN is part of the problem, the derivatives simply underlined bad loans (some written because of political pressure instituted by ACORN and their Democratic allies), the derivatives are not the underlying problem. Your comments are nothing more than juvernile propaganda, sure it works amongst your own kind but that shouldn’t be a surprise, children are like that.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:21 am 16. Sk8 Punk:

Great history lesson. Unfortunately, the president is impossibly ignorant of history, and if he did know about these events he would probably think they were, as you suggest, successful examples of “community organizers.” Our only hope is the incompetence and inexperience of the president. Hopefully that can mitigate the damage he is doing to our country and the world. Ever notice the difference between real grassroots movements and the phony ones? The Tea Parties come to mind… very different set of goals, very different behavior too. Here’s another movement of the people that would never happen today:http://rebelsk8.blogspot.com/

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:30 am 17. a:

Alex says that CRA “is not the cause of current banking environment”, because “There is a total of 15 trillion in US real estate, while there are over 600 Trillion in Derivatives”. CRA plus Fannie, etc are the cause of the current banking crisis because they relieved loan standards and created a market for substandard loans.
Regarding 15 trillions vs. 600 trillions, even assuming that the numbers are not conflated, first, not all derivatives are in a bad shape, and second, trying to explain derisively after an avalanche that too much snow gone down for that initial small snowfall to be a reason does not change the fact.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:34 am 18. s Claus:

Oh my, remember when the idiots on this site wanted to Palin to win:

http://gawker.com/5201100/levi-johnstons-tyra-trainwreck-the-highlights?autoplay=true?skyline=true&s=i

The truth comes out and Palin’s stupid, vacuous, lying ways are exposed. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA – Republicans 2012 – LOSING, one chromosome at a time.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:39 am 19. Ridge Runner:

In response to Alex, who seems to be ignorant of the history of promoting high risk loans that ACORN itself preserves on one of its websites:

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=2747&L=0%2Findex.php

The 1990 ACORN convention in Chicago focused on the fast-breaking housing campaign. It featured a squatting demonstration at an RTC house which was reclaimed for use in an ACORN neighborhood. Later, ACORN members, in a spirited action on the U.S. League of Savings Institutions, demanded cooperation from banks about providing loan data on low- and moderate-income communities and compliance with the Community Reinvestment Act. The convention also included the ACORN Elected Official Conference which developed strategies for independent electoral organizations. The hard-hitting actions and long-term strategies would pay off in years to come.

The housing issue continued to heat up in 1991, when ACORN fought back against bank lobbyist efforts to gut the CRA. ACORN members staged a two- day takeover of the House Banking Committee hearing room to be sure their voices were heard by Congress. They stood in line overnight and took seats normally occupied by bank lobbyists. As a result, they won the Congressional vote to preserve the CRA in a power move that got national attention.

The ACORN convention in New York in 1992, the “ACORN-Bank Summit,” was organized to hammer out deals with giant banks like Continental, First Fidelity, Mellon, PriMerit, and Chemical. Representatives signed agreements to establish programs for low- and moderate-income people to qualify for mortgages in their communities. Citibank, the nation’s largest bank, did not participate. In response, the conventioneers held a lively action at Citibank’s downtown Manhattan headquarters, and won a meeting to negotiate for similar programs. The meeting also led to increased Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac funding from the secondary mortgage market to ACORN neighborhoods. These efforts led to billions of dollars of primary and secondary mortgage money flowing into ACORN communities over a period of several years.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/05/03/part2/Coyne.pdf

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2008/10/20/obama%E2%80%99s-ties-to-socialism/

Defending and promoting similar behavior today:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/10/start-the-recovery/

http://www.baltimorehousing.org/pressroom_detail.asp?id=146

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:41 am 20. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. If you doubt that ‘history repeats itself’, just remember that Hitler adopted the same program for dealing with the ‘Jewish Problem’. It was later repeated by Pol Pot in the Cambodian Killing Fields.

[Nothing succeeds like 'success'.]

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:43 am 21. Don51:

“My administration is the only thing between you and the pitchforks”. I’d make an educated guess that Louis XVI said something along the same lines to the fellow deputies of the First Estate upon calling the Estates-General over a massive financial and tax crisis in 1789. When the storm swept across the land, the heads in the basket seemed to include just about anyone regardless of social station or avocation.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:52 am 22. Chuck Pelto:

TO: eon
RE: Indeed

“One of the conceits of American “progressives” is that they are inherently smarter, wiser, better-looking, and just naturally better than everyone else, including their “soulmates” in Europe, Russia, and elsewhere.” — eon

I think it’s called ‘narcissism’ in psychology circles.

They certainly fit the definition I’ve seen floating about these days.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. And the degree of their sociopathic nature is measured in how shrill their ‘arguments’.

If you doubt this, just take a look at some of the comments HERE:

• s Claus
• Alex

And I’m sure they’ll be joined by David S/DZunga, vivo and various others as the day wears on….

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:59 am 23. Jeff:

Alex …

I have to call BS on your 600 trillion derivatives number … cite the source … otherwise we’ll think you just make stuff up like The Won does …

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:01 am 24. Nelson:

Just here to comment that this was a well written, well-reasoned piece. I appreciate the effort that went into it, and learned something from it.

I guess it’s safe to say, somewhere in Chicago a community has lost its organizer. I hope we can return him in ‘12.

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:15 am 25. jerryofva:

Alex:

Repeal of Glass-Stiegel had nothing to do with the creation of derivatives. All it did was allow banks to combine investment and commercial banking in one entity. Almost all the derivatives that came back to haunt us were created long before the repeal of Glass-Stiegel. Securitized mortgage products were introduced by Morgan-Stanley in 1987. Besides the repeal of Glass-Stiegel has nothing to do with deregulation. It actually added a new regulator to the mix. Prior to the repeal Banks were regulated by the Federal Reserve, the Comptroller of the Currency and the FDIC. When banks diversified into investment banking they added the SEC to the list. The fact that you don’t know that reveals that you are another astroturfer pretending to be somebody that you are not.

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:21 am 26. Pastor of Muppets:

Bob:“In the battle between the bankers and those wielding pitchforks, our President stands with the pitchfork mob and doesn’t want to hear the views of the bankers. This is just one more example of why such a high percentage of non-Democrats think this guy is a disaster.”

Non-Democrats? You mean all five of them?

But seriously, if our president were standing with the pitchfork mob, as you say, then I should be able to look out my window right now at the AIG building and see the president leading the mob as they storm the lobby, leaving a trail of slain investment bankers in their wake, right?

Hmmm. Not seeing it, buddy. Are you just misleading and exaggerating in an effort to smear our president?

Wait a second…Glenn Beck, is that you??

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:29 am 27. JD:

Well, he’s certainly trying his best to emulate the crazies of the USSR.

Being called “my new comrade” by Medvedev, along with threatening bankers and repeating Lenins’/Stalins’ New Economic Policy of the 1920s all point in one direction:

http://trackacrat.com/?s=stalin

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:33 am 28. David S:

I see a lot of paranoia here, but not much substance. What, precisely, has Obama done to indicate authoritarian tendencies? So far as I see, he is following well-established market principles in his efforts to prevent the collapse of capitalism.

All the over-the-top analogies only make Obama look more reasonable. Comparing Obama to Stalin is just more of the same absurd rhetoric that has become SOP on the right. So much for reasoned debate – let’s just demonize. It’s so much easier than actually crafting solutions. Right?

Peace.

DS

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:34 am 29. Pastor of Muppets:

How to write an article for Pajamas Media:

Blah blah Ayers. Blah blah Marxism, no wait, I meant Socialism, no wait, I meant Fascism, blah, blah, ACORN union activists, blah blah forged birth certificate, blah blah take our guns away blah blah. Blah blah blah Chicago thug, no wait, I meant silver spoon Alinsky radical. Blah community organizer blah blah Barney Frank CRA blah. Blah blah If I keep just writing blah blah blah, then I will be able to delude myself into beleiveing that the Republican party is not totally lost and irrelevent.

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:37 am 30. JeanE:

But if the goal is to throw a capitalist society off balance in order to change it, an angry mob is the ticket. Anger is known to be the easiest and the most effective tool of crowd manipulation. Angry mobs cancel out the rule of law.

That is the most important sentence in this piece, because it identifies the greatest threat we face and provides the solution. Angry mobs, whether they be angry at bankers or angry at Congress, are the greatest threat to our liberty. I think the administration is deliberately stoking anger- we must make sure that we don’t take the bait.

A crowd that upholds the rule of law can fight for our rights and preserve our liberty. A mob that tosses aside rule of law will be used as a tool to do away with our rights and liberties. We should keep this in mind as we protest a government that is increasingly out of control.

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:39 am 31. jerryofva:

I see we have a new astroturfer. He makes Dave S look coherent.

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:42 am 32. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: David S

Speak of the ‘devil’…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....but not to David S's liking.....]

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:45 am 33. Delia:

0bama needs to throw everyone under the bus equally including his panel of tax dodgers he promoted to cabinet members and elites. Thattaway he won’t be accused of being a dictator…just a d**k

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:04 am 34. junyo:

“Community organizers were instrumental in forcing banks to give subprime loans to unqualified minority borrowers by using the “pitchforks” tactics — protesting in front of the banks, camping on the lawns of the bankers’ family houses, intimidating families, and suing in courts.”

1. If buyers were unqualified they were unqualified. Why does their race matter? Of course no unqualified whites got loans, those loans somehow didn’t contribute to the problem, and besides, white people are inherently creditworthy.

2. I worked at a bank in the mid-nineties, one of the ones that was sued, and while there was a certain amount of “make some loans in poor neighborhoods to get these people off our nuts”, there was also a lot of data that said that even qualified buyers were having problems at certain branches getting loans if they were the wrong color. Banks could have gotten in front of the issue by assuring that their approval process was color blind, or by addressing the specific problem areas. They chose not to, and therefore bear at least some of the responsibility for allowing the problem to exist, and not having the backbone to systemically address the issue, as opposed to handling it as a PR problem and slapping a publicly satisfying yet ultimately crippling band aid on the problem. They didn’t hand out billions in loans out of the good ness of their hearts, or to get some protesters off the sidewalk across the street; they did it because they knew there was a decent shot that they’d lose.

But go right ahead with your “Those darkies brought down the banking system!” meme.

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:08 am 35. SDN:

Junyo, if you can’t have standards for everyone, you can’t have them for anyone. Example: if you don’t know what race the applicant is (it’s illegal to ask on any number of forms, you just have to apply no standards to anyone so you don’t inadvertently offend.

You’re a fool.

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:34 am 36. LynnS:

Here we are waiting to attack, on your word President Obama! Hold me back President Obama!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Americangothic.jpg

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:42 am 37. Ridge Runner:

junyo is quite correct that the unqualified borrowers came from across the ethnic spectrum, and also that the banks who caved to the pressure to lend profligatlely were as responsible as the populist politicians and their “community organizer” enablers for this reckless behavior.

Of course the banksters weren’t making these loans for charitable purposes, which is why the existing loan securitization system was ramped up to “pass the trash” to investors in MBS and ABS, who turned out to be everyone from Asian central banks, insurance companies, and “Sovereign Wealth Funds” to pension funds and other fiduciaries responsible for putting funds entrusted to them into “safe, investment grade” assets. They were doing what one does in democratic polities: give the common people what they want, good and hard. If what the common people want is unrealistic, then what they get will eventually come back to bite them hard, which is what we see emerging.

But don’t try to cut the ACORN rent-a-mobs out of the loop, They were, and are, in it up to their eyebrows. And, to the extent they provide enabling support to the groups of populist politicians and financial alchemists who “gave them what they wanted”, at the expense of savers who invested in the financial paper created to fund their empty dreams, they are setting themselves up for further disappointment.

http://www.mi.vt.edu/data/files/hpd%203(2)/hpd%203(2)%20fishbein.pdf

http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/wp/wp1992/wp92_7.htm

http://judiciary.house.gov/hearings/pdf/Liebowitz080612.pdf

http://www.clevelandfed.org/research/review/1998/1998-q4.pdf

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-25644238.html

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:52 am 38. The Historian:

OBAMA IS A POLL DRIVEN FOLLOWER:
LEADING BY POLL IS NOT LEADERSHIP
Great Presidents are often not popular while in office.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/04/lincoln-did-not-lead-by-polling.html

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:53 am 39. Rick:

@Dave S: “What, precisely, has Obama done to indicate authoritarian tendencies?” You mean aside from summarily firing Rick Wagoner, instead of telling GM they could go pound sand?

Pick up a copy of WaPo:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040302835_pf.html
“Look Who’s Politicizing Justice Now,” Whelan

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/05/AR2009040501890.html
“Obama’s Machine Sputters in Effort to Push Budget,” Eggen

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/23/AR2009032302830.html
“US Seeks Expanded Power to Seize Firms,” Applebaum and Cho

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/02/AR2009040203287.html
“Obama’s Ultimate Agenda,” Krauthammer

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/03/AR2009040303025.html
“Government vs the Axles of Evil,” Will

and one from the AP:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i2fSfiLKBt378cbNdHd_F1-SnDAgD974TFJ80
“Geithner, Bernanke Want Executive Pay Standards,” Kuhnhenn

The free market already has mechanisms to take care of all this, called “bankruptcy.” It’s a painful process, but it’s short and clears out the “bad money” almost exclusively. Political machinations draw out the process, making the whole thing more prolonged and painful, and chase out far too much “good money” with the bad. They also have a tendency to centralize power with those who should be least-entrusted with it (by whom I mean ALL of the politicoes), slowing down recovery even further. Which if Obama and his hirelings (and yes, before you point it out, Bush and his crew too!) had any historical aptitude on economic matters, they’d already know, and have already started the process – by doing pretty much the exact opposite of what they’ve been up to since day one of each of their administrations.

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:59 am 40. junyo:

SDN, why is someone’s race important in an ability to repay calculation (or any other decision that doesn’t involve the objective melanin content of one’s skin) other than to discriminate on the basis of race?

And since we’re bolstering our arguments with ad hominems, you’re an idiot.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:02 am 41. Sebastian Shaw:

I believe Obama & the Democrats’ attempt to be in front of the mob has backfired; the pitchforks are aimed at them, although surrounded in a bliss of sycophants, the corrupt politicians are completely unaware of the situation at hand.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:03 am 42. tanstaafl:

Infusing anger into a community and turning it into an angry mob, canceling out the rule of law, and changing the balance in a society — this is what community organizers do for a living…it shouldn’t surprise anyone that the new organizer in chief would try to “heal” the economy how he knows best: by continuing to squeeze businesses between the “pitchforks” and the government — a tactic that had caused the disease in the first place. Only now he is doing it on a global scale.

Exactly.

Barack’s use of the “pitchforks” warning was precisely in that vein.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:12 am 43. view from afar:

Where is there a mention of the color of people’s skin in this article? I believe most people are upset because people of all colors have been given moore responsibility than they have shown themselves able to be responsible for…color aside. If color comes to your mind during this article, maybe that should be the topic of another discussion, like why are there so many lower class blacks…and DO NOT tel me it is all based on racism. I am not stupid enough, nor is anyone else who regularly comments here, to believe that racism exists, but maybe if the blacks were taught to work hard, like other immigrants that have faced the same type of unrational hated and have managed to rise out misery…
Me thinks that this article has struck a nerve of truth, because there are more liberals commenting, and none of them, except Alex, has even come close to discussing the points made in the article…and Alex spit into the pot nd walked away. Pastor of the muppets, so from your street café view of the AIG lobby, can you really even understand things like the French Revolution, resulting from the big government excesses of the Sun King? Do you even reflect on the irony of this situation? Especially if you are working in an office in central NYC, be careful of what you don’t know, when you can’t step back and see the whole picture (more people on the right side of the spectrum seem able to do this, they just are able to logically dismiss opposing views from their creative life experiences).

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:13 am 44. Dan Hamilton:

junyo just one question

“What was the default rate for the minority loans in minority areas and what was the default for the White loans in White or mixed areas?”

I have never anyone say that the default rates for minorities was LOWER then for others. If the Banks were requiring higher standards for minorities then their default rates would be lower. Sorry. Everything I heard was that they were about the same. Only when the government forced them to make more minority loans was there a difference. The default rates for minorities went higher. Bad loans cause that. That put a limit on the number of loans the banks could make. Losing money does that.

The Government stepped in and had Freddy and Fanny start buying loans from the banks. Then the Bankers could make any realistate loan and Freddy and Fanny would buy it form them. The Banks started making mone on the TRANSACTION not on the Loan Interest. The transaction had no risk. Make any loan sell it to F&F make money at no risk. So they made loans no sane Banker would because F&F were willing to buy loans that could never be payed back.

Start from forcing Banks to make Bad loans. The Banks can only have so many bad loans on their books. The Banks can’t sell them because they are bad loans. The Government steps in and F&F are happy to buy loans any loans. Good, bad, or insane. The Banks make Bad loans and sell them to F&F. The Minorities are happy, the Democrats are happy, ACORN is happy, the Government is happy. Everybody is happy until there are so many bad loans it can’t be hidden anymore. PUFF the Happy Times are gone.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:14 am 45. Highlander:

To quote F.A. Hayek in “The Road to Serfdom” – “Just as the democratic statesman who sets out to plan economic life will soon be confronted with the alternative of either assuming dictatorial powers or abandoning his plans, so the totalitarian dictator would soon have to choose between disregard of ordinary morals and failure.”

I only hope that, when the time comes, we, the American people, have something to say about these choices.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:35 am 46. tanstaafl:

One of the conceits of American “progressives” is that they are inherently smarter, wiser, better-looking, and just naturally better than everyone else, including their “soulmates” in Europe, Russia, and elsewhere.

Barack does identify more with the secular progressive (”sophisticated”) Europeans than he does with all we gun totin’, religion clingin’, complacent & even “mean” (merci, Michelle) ‘mericans.

Sans doute. And he shows the dipstick respect to King Abdullah that he certainly doesn’t have for the highly flawed collection of dipsticks he purports to represent.

The Apology Tour: Will It Ever End?

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:37 am 47. Gary Ogletree:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I see a massive scam by the big banks and their accomplices at Treasury, the Fed, the SEC. Follow the money and it seems to have a cut out called AIG which funnels our grandchildren’s future earnings to prop up banks that should have been foreclosed last fall. JP Morgan Chase, Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, etc., have upwards of $200 trillion in toxic assets that make them insolvent. These are suspected of being some of the secret owners of the Fed — which has run a massive scam on us since 1913. Curious that GM has to present a business plan to get its bailout, the banks got a free pass to do as they please. I suspect Obama is in on the scam as his good buddies like Rahmbo, Timmy the Tax Cheat and Summers know their way around the big banks. We seem to be getting an interesting fusion of Obama Sr.’s Marxism, Chicago style corruption, and Mussolini Statism.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:41 am 48. Marie Claude:

can you really even understand things like the French Revolution, resulting from the big government excesses of the Sun King?
nope from the big government spendings for helping America in her war of independance, BTW the king was Louis XVI, some humble person that had the unfortuned love for exoctic countries, and for discovering unknown worlds and maritim routes : he armed “La Boussole” and “l’Astrolabe”, 2 ships with La Perouse as captain, following “Cook” expeditions, though they had less chance, the whole equipee disappeared along Vanikoro, a Salomon island in south of Australia.

Also he created the french Navy that fought the English armada at Chesapeake bay, since France kept the cult for a strong and glorious Navy

the Sun king was Louis the fourteenth

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:50 am 49. PD Quig:

Well then. If Mr. O is all that stands between the bankers and the pitchforks, I say let the pitchforks go through him. I’m completely okay with that.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:59 am 50. Pastor of Muppets:

Anyone trying to lay blame on minorities and the CRA for this crisis is either racist or ignorant; most likely both.

It’s really pathetic that we have to keep clearing this up in here, but we’ll say it again and again until it gets through: The vast majority of subprime loans were not regulated by the CRA. More than half of subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies not subject to comprehensive federal supervision; another 30 percent of such originations were made by affiliates of banks or thrifts, which are not subject to routine examination or supervision, and the remaining 20 percent were made by banks and thrifts. Although reasonable people can disagree about how to interpret the evidence, it is clear that the worst and most widespread abuses occurred in the institutions with the least federal oversight.

Yes, I will agree with the wingnuts that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were an integral part of a culture of reckless lending. But they are not the primary culprits in the current financial crisis.

Investment banks created a demand for subprime loans because they saw it as a new asset class that they could dominate. They made subprime loans for the same reason they made other loans: They could get paid for making the loans, for turning them into securities, and for trading them-frequently using borrowed capital.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:06 am 51. view from afar:

I know Marie Claude, but one thing that I never understood in my childern’s history lessons do they not teach the correlation between the Sun King’s excess debt build up, which was never dealt with, and the anger in the taxed classes that had to pay for all of his glorious works in France…that is what I am talking about…French history is not always objective when it comes to Louis 14, I realize that the effects took nearly two generations for the backlash to grow…and I wonder, are our grandchildren going to react to the debt created today?

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:17 am 52. Doctor T:

Thank you for a great presentation of what is actually, in my opinion, developing. I don’t know if it is what is intended, but it sure looks like the type of stuff that has been going on throughout the election process last year and since the inauguration. The divisive comments to split the US population by the top 5% income and the remaining “workers”. So how do we get national coverage?

The current policies that are developing:
Increased taxes on the wealthy and businesses, cap and trade, card check, “stimulus projects that will need to go to union workers or be paid at union wages (and how was that put, ” not the white males”), are nothing less than a war on businesses and the wealthy.

Since businesses generally don’t take the time off to “protest”, “picket”, etc…. to get the attention of the people and the government, how do we stop this Obama/Democratic party socialist express? I do believe that businesses need to act soon.

I do have a suggestion.

On April 15th, many major cities are going to have “Tea Parties” to protest this government’s spending policies and general trend. I suggest that all businesses that can close their doors do so for two days, the 15th and the 16th, in order to join those protests. The people not joining those protests will notice.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:21 am 53. Rockmelon:

One question. Why are we allowing Obama to railroad us into taking our country where we don’t want to go? Ordinarily, I would say that any proposal has at least two veiwpoints; but he’s going past our Constitution, our customs and desires.

Granted he received a tad better than 50% of the popoular vote; but we got the other half. Then there are people who didn’t vote, but surely they have an opinion. Therefore, he is speaking, most likely, for less than half of the population and is saying things that the majority of us would disagree with. Why is he getting away with this? Why are we allowing him to do so?

Obama is the epitome of evil. Where did the transparency go? What about posting bills on the internet five days before he signs? What about all the people who died for this country in an effort to keep us free? Why are we throwing this away? Doesn’t our Constitution have the blueprint for taking down a president whose agenda is in opposition to public opinion?

Uh, that’s more than “one question”, isn’t it? Sign me frustrated and mad.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:22 am 54. just passing through:

david s.:

There are two major assumptions you make when trying to your approach to discussions here. Both of them mark you for a fool.

The 1st is the assumption that the federal government has the right to force a productive majority to support a non-productive minority through forced income redistribution. You apply that metric whether the discussion is about good/bad business models or personal responsibility for making a living. Your core belief is that at the behest of the few the government has the right to take from the many. It may offend you, but that is indeed the underpinning philosophy of communism, and socialism (and in socialism’s extreme form – fascism – little different from communism).

The 2nd assumption is that disagreeing with your redistribution creed is limited to the ‘right’, by which you mean republicans (and I suppose the independents like myself who are not and were never in lockstep with Obama.) It’s the second assumption that simply flies in the face of available evidence. Because there are a lot of democrats out there right now who may still be loyal party faithful while at the same time are not in lockstep with forced wealth redistribution. Open your eyes.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:28 am 55. view from afar:

Nice pastor of muppets, but you seem to leave out a whole bunch of details, and there is absolutely no links to support your theory, but it does make it much easier for you to live with the results I am sure. I will believe your “The vast majority of the subprime loans were not regulated by the CRA” when you prove that statement. And then, no one has spoken about regulation of the loans, but the regulation of the FDIC funds and other strong arm tactics to make feel good loans for people who shouldn’t have been put into situations like has happened, because now how do you convince people to take risks and try to raise themselves up, when they were artificially supported, and now have lost what they couldnt really have?

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:28 am 56. David Levavi:

Detroit went south when engineers in the boardroom were replaced by accountants. Now comes Obama the Chicago thug and his droogies from ACORN.

I would wager that Obama would be hard pressed to explain how his refrigerator, television or computer works. Nonetheless, he’s taking over American automobile manufacture. A community organizer can do anything

America is suffering a critical shortage of mathematicians, scientists and engineers but our president urges college graduates to scant free enterprise and make careers as community organizers and social workers.

If this African American prince of fools and his sleazy Jewish American handlers weren’t so dangerous they’d be funny.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:32 am 57. tanstaafl:

(and how was that put, ” not the white males”)

It was put like this, by one of Obama’s more infamous “economic advisors”…Robert Reich

Third Reich, Robert Reich, Is there a difference ?

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:36 am 58. LynnS:

#48 Marie Claude

“nope from the big government spendings for helping America in her war of Independence,”

Actually the French learned a valuable lesson. Never help a another people gain independence without knowing that your own people would demand the same.

And don’t forget to mention in the same paragraph love for exotic countries mixed with hatred for Britain and the tug of war going on between Britain, Spain, and France wanting influence and power with the “New World”.

Does that mean you were not satisfied with our naming fried potatoes after your country? and…

Do we get to write our history books too, glossing over our many errors which the world so enjoys pointing out to us, and of course blaming us for many of their’s too.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:36 am 59. mvfreeman:

Have to agree with Pastor of Puppets.

The CRA didn’t apply to non-depository lenders, such as private mortgage companies.

The rush to issue sub-prime loans was already on when Fannie Mae jumped on the bandwagon. They didn’t want to lose too much of their market share.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/18/AR2008081802111.html

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:45 am 60. view from afar:

Lynn S, you forgot to mention, that we “paid off” that debt starting with the Louisana Purchase…humor aside, from what I can tell, Marie claude is a conservative for France, which is not an insult.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:45 am 61. tanstaafl:

I will believe your “The vast majority of the subprime loans were not regulated by the CRA” when you prove that statement.

There seems to be quite a few people on the Internet invested (no pun) in demonstrating that the CRA wasn’t a major player in the subprime fiasco…why these CRA apologists are so intent on their arguments, I don’t know.

Carter’s CRA was given teeth under Bill Clinton in 1995. Bad loans and loans that loan facilitator Barney Frank (eventually) acknowledged “should never have been made” ensued, as well as ACORN and ACORN like organizations putting pressure on financial institutions to make those loans.

So who cares, CRA or Godzilla ? Democrats in Congress were happily insistent that bad loan policies be continued, despite Republican attempts (hearings, 2004) to rein those clowns in.

Promising free lunches (and free houses) is how Democrats earn the “support” of the base.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:47 am 62. mr. burns:

As an aside to the master of puppets:
Oddly enough dominating an asset class requires that class of asset to exist. Consequently it is indeed a fact that Freddie and Fannie were the primary cause of the current residential real estate mess.

We are going to have to choose how we want mortgages written in this country. Do we want bank to originate and hold mortgages on clients they know for properties whose value they are comfortable with .
Or do we want banks to write mortgages to whomever and then pass them on the Freddie and Fannie ? Because Freddie and Fannie are now part of the US gov they get their money for free so private banks cant compete with them capital .

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:48 am 63. jerryofva:

Here is a timely article in the National Review on line:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTVjMmI2OWE1NjBkN2UwNzY3ZTAwMTA1ZjI0MDVlYjQ=

This should eliminate all doubts about the cause of the bubble. It was driven by he CRA/Subprime/Fannie Mae complex

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:57 am 64. mvfreeman:

You may want to check this out view from afar…

http://www.occ.treas.gov/ftp/release/2009-25a.pdf

Money quote:

“The CRA applies only to banks and savings associations whose deposits are insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. Affiliates of insured depositories that are not themselves insured depository institutions are not directly subject to the CRA, nor are credit unions or independent mortgage companie”

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:58 am 65. mvfreeman:

Hey jerryofva, you may want to actually read the articles you link.
First of all, it doesn’t even mention the CRA.
Secondly, it does say “The big commercial banks like Bank of America and Wells Fargo provided the financing on the front end and bought the securities on the back end, but the independent mortgage banks actually made the loans”

Those independent mortgage banks weren’t covered by the CRA.

And if you’d read the link I posted earlier you’d see that Fannie Mae didn’t expand their subprime loans until they were losing market share to private companies. They did not initiate the boom/rush.

Here is a good summation…

http://theeprovocateur.blogspot.com/2008/09/updated-summary-of-real-estate-boom.html

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:26 am 66. Ian Thorpe:

As the Obamanazis would not know one end of a pitchfork from the other I suspect it is the President himself who is in more danger from pitchfor weiliding farmers.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:28 am 67. Alex:

Jeff; There is tons of data available regarding derivatives markets, and how they ran wild under President Bush, thanks to President Clinton;

Global Derivatives Market Now Valued at $1.1 Quadrillion.

http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewarticle/articleid/2432853

The Bank of International Settlements, which seems to be the only institution that tracks derivatives market, has recently reported that global outstanding derivatives have reached 1.14 quadrillion dollars: $548 Trillion in listed credit derivatives plus $596 trillion in notional/OTC derivatives.

(You can find BIS quite easily using any search engine)

Since then, derivative trades have grown exponentially, until now they are larger than the entire global economy. The Bank for International Settlements recently reported that total derivatives trades exceeded one quadrillion dollars – that’s 1,000 trillion dollars. The gross domestic product of all the countries in the world is only about 60 trillion dollars. Gamblers, (in this case international banking), can bet as much as they want. They can bet money they don’t have, and that is where huge increase in risk comes in.

The crock in this thread is trying to blame low income individuals for current banking mess. If people are so blind they cannot see the damage banking lobby did to the USA, then we surely deserve the situation we find ourselves in.
There is a reason congress passed glass steagal in 1934 and placed heavy restrictions on banking, so the great depression would never repeat, It is economics 101.

President Clinton removed it in 1999 and even added fuel to the fire with the futures modernization act, which allowed free for all in credit markets. President Bush ignited the fire with massive deficit spending, and the rest is history.

Blaming low income / acorn or other nonsense for the current banking crisis might feed the masses, but is intellectually insulting.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:28 am 68. view from afar:

Ok, mvfreeman, read your link, and am still sceptical. I live in France, am an American, and have spent fifteen years watching French fonctionnaires defend their jobs and salaries, so I am not about to believe an American bureaucrat crunching numbers to defend his job and salary, so I need more objective proof, plus the comment of tanstaafl, and the link of jerryofva…did either of you two check this #64’s link? I have more confidence in the National Review link, as it isn’t someone defending his job’s existence, as in my opinion the OCC wasn’t exactly overseeing this fiasco, or if they were, why wasn’t all this risk questioned before?

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:32 am 69. Meryl:

I believe that one factor being ignored by the namecallers is that there are tens of millions of thinking people in this country who still work for a living and have common sense. They do not spend time on the internet or watching talking heads political programs.

They spend their time LIVING. They know a pile of dog crap when they see it. They know how to USE a pitchfork.

When the tipping point comes, bambi and his BankBusting buddies will be facing millions of Americans who know that he is a pile of dog crap in the shape of a haybale. Nobody will have to tell them which direction to point the fork.

When the tipping point comes, bambi will NOT be making cute and smart remarks about “standing between” ANYBODY and the pitchforks. He’ll be running for his life. And guess what? The pitchfork guys are stronger, faster and smarter than he is. He doesn’t stand a chance.

Think about the volunteer floodflighters in Fargo, ND who filled 3 million sandbags last week (and then filled another quarter million for backup—-and this week are getting ready to fill another million or so for the new crest that is coming).

Now think about those very same people laying down the sandshovels and picking up the pitchforks. Won’t be funny, bambi. Won’t be funny.

And there won’t be anybody standing between you and them.

Why is he threatening the bankers with physical harm? I’m using his figure of speech to make a point. He used the pitchforks language to threaten the bankers. Why?

Why?

The only reason I can think of that he reaches for physical threats as a way of persuading is that he’s accustomed to that method from his life experiences. He’s a dangerous man and an ugly fraud.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:43 am 70. Pastor of Muppets:

view from afar:“I have more confidence in the National Review link, as it isn’t someone defending his job’s existence, as in my opinion the OCC wasn’t exactly overseeing this fiasco, or if they were, why wasn’t all this risk questioned before?”

Well since you’re from France, I guess you wouldn’t know that the National Review is a beacon of shoddy journalism. That’s why even Buckley jumped that sinking ship when he realized that NR was more concerned with hating the left and Obama than actually providing credible news and opinion.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:43 am 71. jerryofva:

MVFreeman:

I did read article and although the article didn’t specifically mention CRA that’s where the growth in subprimes was financed. The big banks outsourced their high risk business to the private mortgage bankers.

Alex, it’s Jerry, not Jeff and perhaps you need to read more carefully, The repeal of Glass-Stiegel didn’t deregulate the banks. It allowed them to expand their business and in the process actually added a layer of regulation to the banking industry.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:44 am 72. Sherab Zangpo:

I DO appreciate this column but I begin to be a bit puzzled by the fact that many very intelligent and knowledgeable writers and thinkers keep (let me use a metaphor) saying to the bad wolf “You are a bad wolf”.

Let’s just come to terms with it: the Country is in the hands of a shadow party made of closet-commies and demented adventurers (Soros), radicals, and apres-moi-le-deluge types (Clinton).

Wouldn’t it be better, instead of describing them for what they actually ARE, establish a “compound” of Principles around which we can gather the American People, draw a line in the sand and make absolutely clear that the demented experiment WILL NOT draw America into serfdom ?

To this end, the discussion about Principles could perhaps help us more than the detail of how bad the bad wolf is.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:44 am 73. Marie Claude:

Lynns
Actually the French learned a valuable lesson. Never help a another people gain independence without knowing that your own people would demand the same.

And don’t forget to mention in the same paragraph love for exotic countries mixed with hatred for Britain and the tug of war going on between Britain, Spain, and France wanting influence and power with the “New World”.

Does that mean you were not satisfied with our naming fried potatoes after your country? and…

Do we get to write our history books too, glossing over our many errors which the world so enjoys pointing out to us, and of course blaming us for many of their’s too.

OK, LynnSI can see how your love is big and biased for us, I don’t even write your history books, some of your fair fellows do, but you’re apparently too educated for reading them, or is it simply a mind lazyness that conforts you in your certainties ?

Where did I blame someone ? when I only point on the errors, or the volontaries misinterpretations of facts?

Please do read this résumé, it’s not long and it is precise :

French expenditures for the war were enormous: Robert D. Harris sets the total French cost for the war for the years 1776-1782 at 928.9 million livres (as opposed to 2,270.5 million livres for the British), with another 125.2 million to be added for the year 1783! At the same time the total ordinary income of the French crown stood at 377.5 million livres for the year 1776. More than half of the cost of the war had to be funded by loans, and by the end of 1782 the total constituted debt of the French monarchy had reached 4,538 million livres. Even if most historians agree today that these additional outlays for the war were not the primary cause of the French Revolution, there can be no doubt thatan extra billion livres in expenditures, and annual expenditures of some 207 million livres just to service the debt, did nothing to enhance the financial situation of the French monarchy between 1783 and the outbreak of the revolution in 1789.5

http://www.hudsonrivervalley.net/ROCHAMBEAUINCONNECTICUT/ROCHAMBEAUINCONNECTICUT4.pdf

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:47 am 74. Pastor of Muppets:

jerryofva: “Alex, it’s Jerry, not Jeff and perhaps you need to read more carefully, The repeal of Glass-Stiegel didn’t deregulate the banks. It allowed them to expand their business and in the process actually added a layer of regulation to the banking industry.”

Jeff, you’re wrong again! The repeal of Glass-Steagle allowed lenders like Citigroup, which in 1999 was the largest U.S. bank in terms of assets, to underwrite and trade instruments such as mortgage-backed securities and collateralized debt obligations and establish the SIVs that bought those securities. Because they previously could not do that by law, by definition the repeal of Glass Steagle deregulated the banks.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:59 am 75. Marie Claude:

but one thing that I never understood in my childern’s history lessons do they not teach the correlation between the Sun King’s excess debt build up, which was never dealt with, and the anger in the taxed classes that had to pay for all of his glorious works in France…that is what I am talking about…French history is not always objective when it comes to Louis 14, I realize that the effects took nearly two generations for the backlash to grow…and I wonder, are our grandchildren going to react to the debt created today?

Louis IV lived a century earlier, while he has a high standard of expenses for his representations, the economical situation of France wasn’t as bad as for Louis XVI, he had good collaborators such Mazarin when he was young, Colbert, Richelieu.. all excellent gestionaires. He managed to control the rebel nobles in forcing them to court and live in Versailles, thus they hadn’t time enough to launch a war against his partisans. Plus their living in Versailles wasn’t gratuitous, he made them pay the cost of their inhabitations, food, etc.. only his favorites and close friends could enjoy freely his sun-light. And when it wasn’t enough, he could expropriate and put in jail his rich creditors, such Fouquet. Otherwise, he could also think of a small expedition on his neighbours, sometimes he gained some revenues, sometimes he got ruined too

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:02 am 76. tanstaafl:

Blaming low income / acorn or other nonsense for the current banking crisis might feed the masses, but is intellectually insulting.

I’m not putting the crisis exclusively at their feet, only naming the dynamic as one aspect of the explosion in subprime lending.

Barack’s organizer pals pushed for bad mortgages

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:19 am 77. bubblehead:

Let’s be clear; whether or not a loan was required to be made under CRA or not, CRA changed the playing field and everyone else had to accommodate to the new dynamic! Nothing happens in a vacuum. With so many government-backed players loaning to marginal customers and turning a profit, EVERYONE else had to do the same thing or lose investers to the more profitable and more dynamic players. The game within the game is the one played for investor dollars. If your organization cannot offer at least as good a return on investment as the other guys, your investors will take their capital and bolt. Without capital, your company starves; it’s that simple.

Claims about whether CRA did or did not regulate a loan exhibit woeful ignorance, malicious deception or just plain laziness. Master of Muppets (or was that supposed to be Mastered by Puppets), which is it in your case???

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:21 am 78. tanstaafl:

From a Brit…

Some very astute observations about the Organizer In Chief

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:28 am 79. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Sherab Zangpo
RE: The Big Bad Wolf

….I begin to be a bit puzzled by the fact that many very intelligent and knowledgeable writers and thinkers keep (let me use a metaphor) saying to the bad wolf “You are a bad wolf”.

Let’s just come to terms with it: — Sherab Zangpo

What do you do when it comes to ‘blow your house down’?

Can you come to ‘terms’ with that?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Be prepared. -- Boy Scout credo]

P.S. Not that it’s done that just yet. But what if it starts doing that?

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:33 am 80. mvfreeman:

Jerr, those banks issued those loans because they wanted to increase their market share and possible profits, not because they were forced by CRA guidelines,which they were not subject to in the first place.

With ever increasing home prices they felt their risk was covered.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123897612802791281.html

http://bigpicture.typepad.com/comments/files/647-20081013-ECONOMY-subprime.large.prod_affiliate.91.jpg

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:34 am 81. mvfreeman:

Bubblehead,

It’s already been established that government backed players didnt initiate the subprime boom.

Ameriquest was not government backed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ameriquest_Mortgage

“Subprime lenders made $587 billion in new mortgages in 2004, up from $390 billion in 2003, according to National Mortgage News. Ameriquest’s share of that is estimated at over $50 billion.”

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:44 am 82. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Marie Claude
RE: [OT] Louis IV???!?!?

Louis IV lived a century earlier, — Marie Claude

A typo, perhaps? Dropped the “X”? Louis IV of France reigned at the end of the Dark Ages, i.e., 10 September 920 – 30 September 954. He never knew Richelieu.

Richelieu was First Minister of France for Louis XIII. He died in 1642.

Louis XIV ascended to the throne of France, when he was five years old (1643). But did not actually rule until the death of Cardinal Mazarin in 1661.

Hope that helps….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. If he ‘knew’ Richelieu, it was only as something of an ‘uncle’.

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:45 am 83. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: mvfreeman

Jerr, those banks issued those loans because they wanted to increase their market share and possible profits, not because they were forced by CRA guidelines, which they were not subject to in the first place. — mvfreeman

Obviously mvfreeman doesn’t pay much attention to Acts of Congress. And there’s probably a good reason for that…..something to do with having graduated from high school sometime after 1980.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Education replaces an empty mind with an open one....or so it used to be. These days it replaces it with a closed one.]

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:52 am 84. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: mvfreeman

Just to drive my point home, here’s an interesting quote from the first item he/she cited….

Both the Clinton and Bush administrations aggressively pursued the goal of expanding homeownership, so credit standards eroded. — article cited by mvfreeman

So…..

whereas, this character (mvfreeman) claims that it was the banks fault, we see, in the article HE/SHE provided a link to, that the government played a VERY BIG role in this fiasco.

Thus are these cretins defeated, hoisted by their own petard.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Crow is a dish best eaten while it is 'fresh'.]

Apr 7, 2009 - 11:57 am 85. LynnS:

#73
“OK, LynnSI can see how your love is big and biased for us”

No, you are incorrect, I do not have big love for your country and I get irritated when you do not acknowledge historical facts about the reasons for the French interest in the “New World” other than love for ‘exotic’ places.

Please continue, because I am just being grumpy, and it may take a little longer to acknowledge your charms.

Il faut effacer tout ce qui est écrit dans ces livres.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:00 pm 86. Marie Claude:

Thank you Chuck, hey, good to know that I have some spared memory somewhere

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:04 pm 87. Dana H.:

Excellent article. It seems that these days the only people who both understand freedom’s requirements and appreciate its value are Objectivists and those who lived under communism.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:05 pm 88. view from afar:

muffet pastor, unfair to critize the National review just because you don’t agree with the political opinions that are the basis of their world view (of which I happen to agree, after having lived on both sides of the ocean and am a normal person, not rich living abroad, but left the US middle class to come to France, live with my French husband and duo-national children). Now I am to understand that you live off of captialism, but are against it, as free markets are evil. I guess that i will have to say that I really can’t trust your sources, because you can’t objectively analyze an argument and come to your own logical conclusions, you need to spout partisan rhetoric, therefore you only believe that which agrees with your position. I am trying to understand something by looking at different proofs from different opinions, never mind that I have my own believes already in place. France is rubbing off on me, run on sentences forever!

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:06 pm 89. mvfreeman:

Hey chuck, I was referring to private mortgage banks mentioned in the NR article.

So which act of congress are you referring to that would dictate their loan practices? Because it wasn’t the CRA.

” In the February 2008 House hearing, law professor Michael S. Barr, a Treasury Department official under President Clinton,[67][34] stated that a Federal Reserve survey showed that affected institutions considered CRA loans profitable and not overly risky. He noted that approximately 50% of the subprime loans were made by independent mortgage companies that were not regulated by the CRA, and another 25% to 30% came from only partially CRA regulated bank subsidiaries and affiliates. Barr noted that institutions fully regulated by CRA made “perhaps one in four” sub-prime loans, and that “the worst and most widespread abuses occurred in the institutions with the least federal oversight”.[68] According to Janet L. Yellen, President of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco, independent mortgage companies made risky “high-priced loans” at more than twice the rate of the banks and thrifts; most CRA loans were responsibly made, and were not the higher-priced loans that have contributed to the current crisis.[69] A 2008 study by Traiger & Hinckley LLP, a law firm that counsels financial institutions on CRA compliance, found that CRA regulated institutions were less likely to make subprime loans, and when they did the interest rates were lower.”

http://www.traigerlaw.com/publications/traiger_hinckley_llp_cra_foreclosure_study_1-7-08.pdf

http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/2008/09/community_reinv.html

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:12 pm 90. view from afar:

Marie Claude, one day I would love to have coffee with you!! My comparison is: the wild expenses of the precedent two kings (14-15) and then yes the excesses of 16 for the run up to the French revolution; with the wild excesses of the current government of the US, which will leave taxes that my grandchildren will still be paying for, and will that debt have the same type of effect on their generation, as the French run-up to the Revolution did on that generation. J’espere tu m’as compris ( i hope you understood)

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:13 pm 91. mvfreeman:

Where did I deny that credit standards weren’t lowered?

My point is that non-depository lenders were the biggest culprits in the explosion of subprime loans.

Keep spinning that it was all the fault of government and that corporate and invester greed had nothing to do with it. Not to mention the tons of middle class home buyers with less than stellar credit who wanted to buy more house than they coudl afford.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:20 pm 92. mvfreeman:

Oh and chuck, the next sentence after the quote you selected is “Lenders and the investment banks that securitized mortgages used rising home prices to justify loans to buyers with limited assets and income. Rating agencies accepted the hypothesis of ever rising home values, gave large portions of each security issue an investment-grade rating, and investors gobbled them up.”

Not exactly an act of congress.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:28 pm 93. Chuck Pelto:

TO: mvfreeman
RE: Yeah….Yeah….Yeah….

Hey chuck, I was referring to private mortgage banks mentioned in the NR article. — mvfreeman

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The field behind rhetoric is oft mined with equivocation.]

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:37 pm 94. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: mvfreeman

My point is that non-depository lenders were the biggest culprits in the explosion of subprime loans. — mvfreeman

See what I’m getting at here?

First he/she claims it was all the banks fault, as I cited in my post at item #83 of this thread. Then I provide evidence that it is not as he/she claims, in item #84 of this thread.

To which he/she returns saying thinks to the effect of, “That’s not what I meant.” (See item #89).

However, oddly enough, in his/her follow-up item (see item #91) they repeat their previous claim that “it was all the banks fault”.

It’s a ‘touch-stone’ for their ilk. Clinton had nothing to do with it.

If it had been ALL Bush’s fault—and none of the Clinton’s—they’d be all over it like flies on merde. But since the Clintons AND the Democrat-controlled Congress are tainted by this fiasco, they have to find someone else to put ALL the blame on.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:44 pm 95. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. And about this little ‘bit’ of indication as to his/her ‘bent’ on the topic…..

Where did I deny that credit standards weren’t lowered? — mvfreeman

…WHERE did they say that the credit standards WERE lowered?

They didn’t. And in their omission of THAT fact and the additional—more important—fact that the government was behind it in BOTH the Clinton and Bush administrations they speak volumes.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:46 pm 96. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. Just so that this cretin recognizes where I’m coming from….

…I’m pissed off at BOTH parties and all the creatures in Congress that got US into this mess.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:47 pm 97. Chuck Pelto:

[Revolution is brewing....]

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:48 pm 98. view from afar:

Chuck pelto 96, well written

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:53 pm 99. Chuck Pelto:

TO:
RE: Aaaahhhhh….

Not exactly an act of congress. — mvfreeman

But you decidedly decided to ignore the fact that the government was pushing them to do that. Hence it was the previous sentence in the article YOU provided that drove the following one you’re grasping at to mitigate the prior.

Dork!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S Don’t go into ‘debate’. You’ll never hack it…..

P.P.S. I say this because your debate skills remind me of a middle-schooler…..

P.P.P.S. When and where did you graduate from high school? That is IF you’ve graduated yet.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:57 pm 100. junyo:

Dan Hamilton:
So your argument is because people in the neighborhood in general had a higher default rate, then it was okay to apply that data to every single individual. In other words, it’s okay to use collective judgment/consequences when it’s convenient or will cost you money. “Your neighbor didn’t repay his loan and happens to be the same color, so you don’t get a loan, despite having the same repayment history as this white guy that happens to live ina different neighborhood. Oh, you’re trying to move to that neighbor? Too bad, so sad, tough shit. The good news is, we will build branches in your neighborhood, because we would love for you to let us hold your money, because that is good enough for us to collect and loan to other people, just not you.” You can claim it’s not inherently discriminatory to judge an individual based on the actions of other individuals, but not without being an idiot.

Also no one “forced” a bank to make bad loans. Banks had a continuum of choices that ranged from not allowing their employees to discriminate in the first place, to saying “f’ck off” after the fact and letting the chips fall where they may. Curious how the meme seems to portray the poor bankers (with literally floors in their headquarters devoted to their legal departments) as defenseless before the dark hordes. Certainly no one forced them to make loans for 150% of the appraised value (based on the real estate agent’s appraiser) on a borrower with poor credit and no confirmed source of income. That’s the kind of loans that were being made, and then off-loaded into the big bundles within hours of origination. That has nothing to do with minorities and pitchforks, and a lot to do with the people wanting to cashout their gains and offload the risk before the chips started to fall. That’s deliberate behavior, with no gun to anyone’s temple. A certain percentage of loans will default, for a variety of reasons, and as creditworthiness goes down that percentage goes up. BBt it’s sustainable for a very long time, because the loans are secured, by the property itself. Under ideal circumstances you can make a loan to ANYONE, as long as you maintain the value of the asset, and get enough money upfront to cover the various carrying and admin costs. The problem of course, was everybody got greedy; people let brokers talk them into loans they couldn’t afford, banks took extremely aggressive values on properties and abused or ignored their own internal standards (I know it’s an article of faith among libertarians that the minute a charge of discrimination is made all white people in the room are immediately obligated to drop their pants and prepare for mounting, but typically all you have to do to deflect a discrimination charge is show that you have documented policies/standards, and that those are consistently and objectively applied, if you don’t then it’s your own fault for being stupid), homebuilders and real estate speculators borrowed on large amounts of property that they had no buyers for. Little to none of that has anything to do with the individual actors being or not being minorities, therefore the only reason to inject race into the conversation at all is because people would like race to be the issue.

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:03 pm 101. mvfreeman:

Oh I see where you’re coming from chuck.
Apparently anyone who doesn’t share your view on something is a cretin belonging to some ilk.

Cheers.

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:04 pm 102. Carbon:

mvfreeman wrote
My point is that non-depository lenders were the biggest culprits in the explosion of subprime loans.

You may be right. I don’t have sufficient data to weigh in on the subject. However, I do have a few questions which perhaps you could answer:
(1) Numbers of loans could be misleading. What was the total dollar amount of the non-depository lender made loans versus the total dollar amount of the institutions that were subject to the CRA? The number of loans doesn’t really matter–the aggregate value of one as opposed to the other does.
(2) If everyone was so willing, in the name of greed, to make such loans, why did “community activist” organizations feel the need to create pressure tactics to compel them to make such loans? Why was that necessary?
(3) If everyone was so willing, in the name of greed, to make such loans, why did the government impose punitive sanctions (the CRA) if they would not?

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:05 pm 103. mvfreeman:

Trying to assert intellectual superiority by resorting to peurile ad homimens.

Stay classy chuck.

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:11 pm 104. Chuck Pelto:

TO: view from afar
RE: [OT] Heh

Chuck pelto 96, well written — view from afar

As the co-chair of my precinct in my county Republican Party, I’ve made my opinion perfectly clear to the party chair and a number of other officials in the organization, i.e., they screwed the proverbial pooch.

And it is my considered and honestly held opinion that the state and county level ‘leadership’ should have been drop-kicked through the ‘goal posts of [political] Life’, along with the national-level.

Why they weren’t is a function of the old fuddie-duddies who can’t find it in their little sweet hearts to throw out someone who has totally failed in their responsibilities. Despite all the obvious evidence.

If the Republicans don’t get their act together in 2010, in 2012, there’s going to be another political party in the system and the Republican Party will die the death it so justly deserves.

I may be a registered Republican, but I’ve got membership in a group that proves I’m not a farking idiot….contrary to the REAL idiotic claims by vivo and David S that I am. But they can’t show me they have membership in the same organization.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[It's not my fault that they're too dense to properly interpret my passive aggression. ]

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:16 pm 105. davod:

Will anyone ever learn from the past. This is going on now in Russia.

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:27 pm 106. Chuck Pelto:

TO: mvfreeman
RE: Cretins R U

Apparently anyone who doesn’t share your view on something is a cretin belonging to some ilk. — mvfreeman

No. Only people who double-back, double-talk and squirm like you are ‘cretins’.

Hope that helps….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Prevaricator: A liar in the caterpillar state.]

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:50 pm 107. Roderick Reilly:

“”"”"I was there when President Clinton signed banking deregulation in the late 90’s allowing bankers to run amok “”"”"”

Oh, how nice for you, Alex. “I was there” too. I was at Fannie Mae, where I was told explicitly that Fannie Mae was a Democratic party fiefdom, and they intended to run things the way they saw fit, including bad loans to bad risk people.

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:51 pm 108. Chuck Pelto:

TO: mvfreeman
RE: Mental Superiority?

Trying to assert intellectual superiority by resorting to peurile ad homimens. — mvfreeman

Show me your Mensa membership number and I’ll call you ‘bro’!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Still waiting for you to effectively rebut my comments about how you back-track, double-talk and obfuscate regarding who—banks or government—are more at fault for this mess….

….but having failed that, you decided to go for the ad hom.

You can STILL save yourself. But I doubt you have what it takes to do so…..

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:53 pm 109. Chuck Pelto:

TO: davod
RE: Indeed

Will anyone ever learn from the past. This is going on now in Russia. — davod

See my comment in item #5 of this thread.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[History keeps on repeating itself....]

Apr 7, 2009 - 1:55 pm 110. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. I notice that you totally failed to answer ANY of the questions I asked of you.

Typical ‘progressive’ approach to discussion….liars, cheats and refuse to ’share’…..

Apr 7, 2009 - 2:02 pm 111. view from afar:

I’ve been waiting for someone to comment on Alex’s I was there…
Chuck, politians are like the pharisees…I think you understand my point.
I’ve been earning alot here…thanks everyone.

Apr 7, 2009 - 2:10 pm 112. view from afar:

that would be learning a lot…sorry.

Apr 7, 2009 - 2:11 pm 113. peter jackson:

Anyone trying to lay blame on minorities and the CRA for this crisis is either racist or ignorant; most likely both.

Uh, yeah.

Except, as Shannon Love over at chicagoboyz.net has pointed out, in the commercial real estate market there is no CRA, no Fannie and Freddie backing up bad loans, no “community organizers” hectoring commercial real estate lenders in the courts…and guess what? There’s no crisis either. There’s also no “sub-prime” commercial real estate market to speak of, and although there are commercial mortgage-backed securities, they are completely stable.

Oh look, your “argument” broke…

too bad/
peter.

Apr 7, 2009 - 2:49 pm 114. Chuck Pelto:

TO: view from afar
RE: The Latter-Day Pharisees Amongst US

Chuck, politians are like the pharisees…I think you understand my point. — view from afar

For they lay heavy burdens on the backs of men and will not raise one finger to lighten them….. — Some ‘Wag’ around 2000 years ago

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Woe to you Pharisees and scribes. Hypocrites! -- Same Guy]

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:06 pm 115. just passing through:

“Anyone trying to lay blame on minorities and the CRA for this crisis is either racist or ignorant; most likely both.”

Stop with the racist crap. It isn’t about lending to minorities. It’s about violating the tried and true income analysis developed and proven over time that closely tracks the likelihood of a borrower meeting the terms of his mortgage. And if the numbers don’t work, that tried and true analysis says that the lender refuses to lend that amount. You can find the mortgage analysis all over the net and if you abide by the answer you get, you get the house you can afford and then it’s up to you. It’s not rocket science.

The fact that minorities make up the bulk of the recipients of badly considered mortgages is germane only in two ways. The demographic on average is lower income. And the minorities were targeted by intent. The CRA’s ludicrous notion that everyone should have the opportunity to have as much house as they wanted, rather than what they could afford, is at the core of the problem.

Arguing over the machinations that allowed the CRA to financially float what was essentially a ponzi scheme and calling racist, elitist, or right wing those who don’t see it as their obligation to underwrite it is kneejerk progressive nonsense.

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:07 pm 116. Chuck Pelto:

TO: just passing through
RE: The Racist Card

“Stop with the racist crap. It isn’t about lending to minorities.” — just passing through

My experience has been that the one who throws the card first is more than likely the REAL ‘racist’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. It’s called ‘projection’……

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:25 pm 117. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S.

“Arguing over the machinations that allowed the CRA to financially float what was essentially a ponzi scheme and calling racist, elitist, or right wing those who don’t see it as their obligation to underwrite it is kneejerk progressive nonsense.” — just passing through

Well….

….we’ve seen often enough how so-called ‘progressives’ are willing to throw anyone or anything under the proverbial ‘bus’, to satisfy their current agenda.

[Yesterday's Truth is tomorrows Lie.....]

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:27 pm 118. Red Square:

#50. Pastor of Muppets: Anyone trying to lay blame on minorities and the CRA for this crisis is either racist or ignorant; most likely both.

No one is blaming minorities in causing the crisis. The blame lies on the demagogues who used minorities as a club to advance their agenda – and (only partially) on those who didn’t have the guts to resist the intimidation and stand on principle (although it’s easy to blame them when it wasn’t your child’s school that was being picketed).

Both ACORN and congressional Democrats used the race card a lot: ACORN blamed the banks for being racist when they initially rejected risky loans, and Democrats blamed Republicans for being racist when they tried to regulate the CRA along with Fanny and Freddy.

The fact that Pastor of Muppets decided to use the same blame game to defend the race demagogues, says a lot about where he’s coming from – and how honest he is with us, or maybe even with himself.
———-
On a different note, I was expecting to see more comments about the main point of the above story, which is how allegedly “moral” arguments for the “common good” and “for the people” overwhelmingly end up in doing immoral things and hurting the people they set out to defend. And how universal this is – be it Russia, America, France, or Zimbabwe.

This pattern can be detected in the CRA affair as well, but it’s much bigger than that. That the argument got diverted into discussing the CRA may be the result of the weakness that all decent people have – they can’t pass a hungry troll without feeding him. And trolls use this trick all the time to their advantage.

Here we go. If we can blame people’s decency for feeding the trolls, we might as well blame the bankers for feeding ACORN.

And let’s also blame the frog who agreed to transport the scorpio across the river even though he knew that the scorpio would eventually sting him. In result, they both drowned. And the scorpio family sued the frog family for the wrongful death of their brother caused by the frog’s bad judgment.

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:04 pm 119. The UnPatriot:

Whether or not the CRA, or more correctly the ideology behind it, was directly involved with all subprime loan originations, it is the linchpin on which all that followed hangs. Without governmental interference starting with Carter and fueled by Clinton, Franks, Dodd, Raines, etc., the rest would not have happened. Culprits surely exist on both sides of the aisle. However, the Democrats own most of it and the ideology is undeniably leftist/socialist. Several attempts were made to forestall the implosion, yet the crowd above basically said “get stuffed.”

The CRA and the intimidation through court proceedings and general thuggery that followed set up a structure that was destined to fall apart. Yes, there was greed on all sides. This greed always has and always will exist: home buyers who want more than they can afford, bankers whose business it is to loan money, all of the mortgage origination middlemen who only see a commission check and could not care less what happens next (which many/most banks became in the end), and Wall Street investment brokers. The real greed, however, comes from government officials and bureaucrats and community activists who where either buying votes or increasing power.

Once the system was set up and humming along with Fannie and Freddy providing a rose colored sense of stability it became a sacrilege to question the wisdom of “the system.” At that point, everyone involved did what they will always do – get the most out of the system that they can at the moment. That is what should happen. However, with the artificial forcing function of the CRA, the collapse was pretty much inevitable.

–The UnPatriot

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:11 pm 120. Marie Claude:

#85 LynnS, you forgot that there was an important french settlement in your country and that they were prressed on to move, they were expropriated, and fought by the “immortal” anglo-saxon enemis, that even after that the revolution war was won, these anglo-settlers carried on cleaning the ground of the French, they had to embrace the anglo-saxon governance and language or move away, or being deported in case of resistance.

Mr Washington was happy to find the helps of France to become the first president of the US, though he soon resigned his alliance with France, therefore, the Americans’ help that the king of France need at this very time, be it soldiers, and or a part of his money back, all that went under Mr Washington’s bus, and naturally the French that were living in America wasn’t his problem neither.
So it’s why that sometimes, while I surf on the american sites, some persons tell me that they had a french ancestry at the beginning.

for the anecdote, one of this board bloggers told me that the French were the first to make Mr Washington surrender, isn’t it funny ?
you don’t believe me ?

check http://www.fortedwards.org/gwpage.htm

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:39 pm 121. David S:

@32. Chuck Pelto:
When I said “So much for reasoned debate – let’s just demonize.” You didn’t have to take my advice so literally…

Speak of the ‘devil’…..

But now that you mention it, Lucifer might be bringing some light into your life…

[The Truth will out....but not to David S's liking.....]

I’m a big fan of the truth – but you knew that… It’s one of my favorite things…

Peace.

DS

Apr 7, 2009 - 6:51 pm 122. Jess:

Really now? Banks were heckled into giving sub prime mortgages because of community organizers? You people really do not understand the concept of a community organizer, do you?
Community organizers are not responsible for the housing crisis. Greedy bankers are. The practice of issuing sub prime mortgages to people who bought homes well beyond their means, like huge mcmansions, and defaulted because living beyond their means suddenly caught up to them and came crashing down.
Community organizers helped many people realize the dream of home ownership within their means. Very few of these loans defaulted for the same reasons as mcmansion buyers. These people could afford their houses and lived within their means until they began to lose their jobs.
You should be grateful for community organizers as many of them have initiated programs to help troubled youth better themselves. Without these programs there would be a lot more crime so I guess you would be bitching about that too.

Apr 7, 2009 - 7:10 pm 123. one of my own:

104. Chuck Pelto: . . . “As the co-chair of my precinct in my county Republican Party, I’ve made my opinion perfectly clear to the party chair and a number of other officials in the organization, i.e., they screwed the proverbial pooch.”

Thank you, Santa Jesus! First e get Sarah Palin as the future of the Republican party. Then we get Rush as the leader of the Republican party. Now we get Chuck Pelto the DataBase King as co-chair and assistant general manger of his county’s Republican party. The stars are aligning already.

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:01 pm 124. Principlex:

The truth about O’s remark is that it is his typical manipulation. I know of no one, generally speaking, in America after bank executives with a pitchfork. The people who threatened AIG employees were ACORN people – Obama’s people.

So, the statement should have been: “My Administration is after you with a pitchfork.” The truth from Obama, except for his redistributive motives, would be a first.

Apr 7, 2009 - 9:12 pm 125. JB:

There is a way to deal with an Acorn mob — AND we all know WHAT it is.

Apr 7, 2009 - 10:12 pm 126. Chuck Pelto:

TO: one on her own
RE: Heh

Jealousy does not look good on you, dearie.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The point is that as soon as fear, hatred, jealousy and power worship are involved, the sense of reality becomes unhinged. And, as I have pointed out already, the sense of right and wrong becomes unhinged also. -- George Orwell]

Apr 8, 2009 - 6:18 am 127. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: one on her own

I suspect it’s the christianity think that REALLY set her off.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Re-read the tag-line of my previous missive here…..

Apr 8, 2009 - 6:20 am 128. LynnS:

#120 Marie Claude

“So it’s why that sometimes, while I surf on the american sites, some persons tell me that they had a french ancestry”

Yes, Marie Claude, now it is my turn to confess French blood in my veins. Unfortunately I am a Heinz 57 and do not have pure-bred papers to frame and hang on a wall. Along with that, I don’t hold illusions to the ‘purity’ of the French King’s, and his advisor’s intentions in helping the Americans fight against the British. Although it would be nice to think that people do things for just the sake of ‘goodness’, it is rarely so, and yes, I admit the United States is often guilty of looking out for “our own interests” also.

I am afraid I am guilty of being raised by an intelligent Irish woman, who when looking at the monuments, buildings and statues in Europe, instead of seeing their beauty, she saw the backs of the peasants they were built on. Please excuse my ramblings.

I bid you adieu.

Apr 8, 2009 - 6:50 am 129. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: Heh

I’m a big fan of the truth – but you knew that… It’s one of my favorite things… — David S

Based on past encounters, I think you’re lying again.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Evil has many tools, and a lie is the handle that fits them all.]

Apr 8, 2009 - 7:27 am 130. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: LynnS and a Monty Python Moment

I bid you adieu. — LynnS

’nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Run Awaaaaayyyyyy!]

Apr 8, 2009 - 7:40 am 131. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: David S and the Truth Comes Out

But now that you mention it, Lucifer might be bringing some light into your life… — David S

He may have thought it was ‘clever’. I see it as evidence of what I’ve been pondering since we first ‘engaged’ in this venue. It’s nice to have him admit to it in such a public venue. And that it validates my earlier comments about the veracity of his pronouncements here. But it’s a pity he won’t learn anything from this ‘revelation’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[He is the Father of Lies. -- John 8:44, last sentence (paraphrased)]

Apr 8, 2009 - 7:50 am 132. David S:

@131. Chuck Pelto:

Poking fun at religious belief is just a hobby of mine. If you actually believe in Lucifer, the Devil or Satan – I think that’s hilarious. Likewise for the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost.

Fairy tales for the weak-minded always arrive with a Chuck(le).

Peace.

DS

Apr 8, 2009 - 9:27 am 133. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: All Fun & Games, Eh?

Poking fun at religious belief is just a hobby of mine. — David S

Too bad your ‘hobby’, just jumped up and bit you in your fourth-point-of-contact.

As I said in my comment to “All” (above), you probably wouldn’t learn much from the experience.

You’ll see this again, in future encounters. And thanks for the ‘ammo’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]

Apr 8, 2009 - 9:46 am 134. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Whereas one of my favorite ‘tag-lines’ is “Everyone ought to have a ‘hobby’”, and having a number of hobbies myself….

….mocking other people’s honestly held religious beliefs is NOT one of them.

I may try to dissuade them of something, but I don’t mock them.

You seem to make a ‘hobby’ of mocking everything. Especially the ‘Truth’. But I’d expect that of a Satanist. And you’ve just provided manifest evidence of that AGAIN.

Will you EVER ‘learn’?

Apr 8, 2009 - 9:51 am 135. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S…..

Fairy tales for the weak-minded always arrive with a Chuck(le). — David S

….and you’ve been a member of Mensa since when?

Apr 8, 2009 - 10:06 am 136. Doctor T:

I can’t get off work to got to the tea party. I guess I need to figure out a way to protest.

For now I’ll hang a tea bag from my shirt.

Apr 8, 2009 - 10:24 am 137. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Doctor T
RE: How To Ideas

For now I’ll hang a tea bag from my shirt. — Doctor T

Interesting idea. Or on the lapel of a suit coat? Maybe something with a little American Flag as the tab on the end of the string? And a picture of George Washington from a $1 bill on the bag itself?

Clever!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Another way would be to scare the heck out of the staff at your Congressional Delegations’ offices by sending loose tea in an envelope.

I hear that some characters in New England called in the HazMat people for getting such…..

Apr 8, 2009 - 10:35 am 138. Marie Claude:

# 128 LynnS

“she saw the backs of the peasants they were built on”

What is often ignored is that these peasants were first freed from their serfdom to get the opportunity to work on great construction sites, even if some of them had to hide in “free” cities(cities hold by frank barons that had made crusades) for a year before being acknoledged as “free” frank (the frank society was based on equality and on merits, while serfdom was the inheritage of the roman empire)

These free serfs were then enrolled onto the construction of cathedrals sites through different jobs corporations, where they had to climb a 7 years apprentissage before being acknoledged as a “compagnon”, (hence the name of freemason)

Some of these compagnons became famous and hold a great knowledge.

The compagnonship corporations became powerful and could discuss their revenues with their “customers”, be them princes, bishops… abbayes.

Though monasteries, nobles, could lend their own serf for a construction, they wouldn’t be allowed to make the technical works, but they could be manoeuvers, and not paid as a normal member of the masonic corporations.
It’s also weird to notice that the church people exploited them the most, sometimes in forgetting to provide them food and or minimal wadges

Apr 8, 2009 - 10:45 am 139. David S:

@133. Chuck Pelto:

You’ll see this again, in future encounters. And thanks for the ‘ammo’.

As always, you are welcome. You grow more entertaining by the day. Lock and Load! I love it!

@134. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Whereas one of my favorite ‘tag-lines’ is “Everyone ought to have a ‘hobby’”, and having a number of hobbies myself….
….mocking other people’s honestly held religious beliefs is NOT one of them.

I may try to dissuade them of something, but I don’t mock them.

It’s not a very complicated method – and most religious belief mocks itself when examined in any detail. Mockery can be a powerful means to dissuade a religious zealot from their belief (or at least put a stop to obnoxiously proselytizing).

You seem to make a ‘hobby’ of mocking everything. Especially the ‘Truth’. But I’d expect that of a Satanist.

I don’t mock those who bring rational arguments to bear on the problems of humanity – just those who refuse to. Your claim to ownership in the “Truth” is laughable – another example of self-mockery. Your claim that I am a Satanist is foolish and presumptuous, as well as a lie. Study of a subject does not make one an adherent – if it did, I would be simultaneously a believer in countless absurdities. Why not note my Pastafarian tendencies? Or my time spent researching native religions of the Western Hemisphere? Again, your “demonizing” ways get the best of you, Chuck.

Will you EVER ‘learn’?

Oh yes. Very much, and continuously. Finding this very educational, thanks.

135. Chuck Pelto:

….and you’ve been a member of Mensa since when?

You have been paying a fee to tout your IQ since when?

I don’t need a “membership” to validate my test scores – or my intelligence. You, once again, demonstrate that you have no argument but personal attack. You may not be a “farking idiot”, but you often do a great job of impersonating one.

Peace.

DS

Apr 8, 2009 - 12:06 pm 140. LynnS:

#138 Marie Claude:

Of course Marie Claude I am not ignorant to the fact that religion can be used as exploitation, and a road to great power, just as secular institutions, or the monarchy.

Could it be that we agree on the time-honored habit of humans and their exploitation of other humans to gain money and power? Please excuse me for the omitting of Great Cathedrals in my criticism, it was not for lack of knowledge of the Churches own faults, and tendency to look down upon the lessors, and use them for gain. Although we could argue whether it was more or less than the others.

Apr 8, 2009 - 12:07 pm 141. ajacksonian:

Fascinating that those agencies that are authorized by Congress, regulated by Congress, funded by Congress are then *not* held accountable for their actions…

I have great misgivings of the federal government involved in any way with real estate and property dealings as that is not allowed by the Constitution. Being a negative rights document, only those things given to government are allowed. In fact there is the exact process of what government can do in that realm, and it is only for federal acquisition of arsenals, magazines or other necessary structures. That is what Congress gets in the way of property work. Regulating the currency is separate from that and deals only with the currency. Indeed the corrupting power of the previous National Bank system was so egregious that it was vetoed when it was put forth to be re-upped. The Bank Veto Message is one of the most thorough reviews of the power of the federal government, its limitations and the corruption that comes with trying to have such institutions. The US would have no National Bank or equivalent system until the Federal Reserve was created by President Wilson who needed some ‘progressive’ ideas to be put in place so that government could take a larger role in the economy. And now we see the same sorts of problems return… well, no, these are worse than that old system had. It takes a federal reserve to truly muck up an economy and turn an economic correction into something far worse.

Perhaps we should re-visit this corruption that attends a ‘vigorous’ government input into the economy, as it corrupts the banks, politicians and those willing to do anything for cash to help extract more money out of the system, both private and public, and then say that it was ‘this President’ or ‘that Congress’ that is at fault. The fault is in the nature of the system created and how those in power are willing to warp ’standards’ to meet ideological goals that have no basis in sound finance. I can live with greedy and rapacious businesses. I can do without the kickbacks, nepotism, earmarks and the rest of it from the government side that is used to make that system go to ill ends that have no sustainable basis in being.

Those things that are ‘too big to fail’ are a threat to your liberty, as they twist government to their will to keep them alive with compliant politicians who seek more power and the removal of your liberty via taxation.

‘Too big to fail’ used to mean ‘break it up into smaller pieces’.

Now it means ‘continue the gravy train from the public coffers’.

Let the giants die… we have a good procedure to that and many will reorganize into more efficient and much smaller companies. And those that can’t will die completely, as others have in the past. We mortgage our liberty for political expediency and unwarranted economic changes. We can live with some chaos in the financial markets. We cannot live with State-based stability as then we become the things of the State to empower the very few over the vast majority of society.

Apr 8, 2009 - 12:22 pm 142. John Galt:

I don’t often agree with Putin, but when he’s right, he’s right. “In the 20th century, the Soviet Union made the state’s role absolute,” he said at the World Economic Forum in Davos. “In the long run, this made the Soviet economy totally uncompetitive. This lesson cost us dearly. I am sure nobody wants to see it repeated.”
==============
A very good article but the conclusion is entirely wrong. Hussein wants to see it reapeated. As an Marxist Muslim Indonesian he wants to see the American economy destroyed and the sooner the better to pave the way for an eventually Caliphate under Sharia law.

Apr 8, 2009 - 12:30 pm 143. Ms. Attitude:

136. Doctor T: The Tea Party in my town will be held from 3pm until 7pm on 15 Apr. That way us working people can attend. We aren’t like the liberals who live off of the government and don’t work.

Apr 8, 2009 - 12:46 pm 144. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: Soooo….

I don’t need a “membership” to validate my test scores – or my intelligence. — David S

….all we have is the word of someone I honestly consider to be a pathological liar.

Great….

And on the other hand, you insist other people are ‘weak-minded’. How appropriate of a so-called ‘progressive’. Call the other side names and never provide any evidence of any real worth to support your own arguments or positions or qualifications.

Hoooow niiiiice…..

Thanks for playing….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The liar's punishment is not in the least that he is not believed, but that he cannot believe anyone else. -- George Bernard Shaw]

Apr 8, 2009 - 2:56 pm 145. Meryl:

If David S WERE really a big fan of the truth (122) I believe he would be a lot more careful about mocking Jehovah at least, as an agnostic, leaving room for the possibility that there’s something he may not know. So his statement about his motives (re the truth) is a lie. Of course, that fits well with his other declared objective about mocking those who have religious faith .

Chuck(le), I think your efforts and persistence are worthy and well done. Always read your posts.

Why does Psalm 2 come to mind when I see the mocking diatribes from the Davids?…..makes my skin crawl to observe again and again their deliberate mocking of God. The David S’s haven’t stumbled into unbelief or deception: they are chasing it down. They are proud of it and are wallowing in it.

Deception is using them and they have no power, thinking all the time they are quite powerful and clever.

Apr 8, 2009 - 5:46 pm 146. JeffersonAirplane:

“Yes, I will agree with the wingnuts that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac were an integral part of a culture of reckless lending. But they are not the primary culprits in the current financial crisis.”

The term “wingnuts” always strike me as an interesting term, because it is usually used by the left as a derogatory slander upon the right. When in actuality there are many “wingnuts” on the left as well. In fact, any citizen who proscribes blindly to one party or the other should be considered a wingnut. Or as it’s called in some circles, a “moonbat”. Or more properly, sheep.

Shall we be sheep to the slaughter with blind prejudices and rage? I think this is the most important point in Oleg’s article.

To pretend that our Government has not set down laws that have mislead us is naive at best, ignorance at worst.

Fannie and Freddie are the darlings of government invention that set a standard for all other banks to follow or be left in the dust. Those that took the bait, followed and are now being demonized. The Fed set standards that were neither rational or prudent, at the behest of our government.

It is governments responsibility to protect us from fraud, yet for some reason many are pointing the finger at businesses while our greatest protector was sleeping on the job. While our government was pushing for lower and lower standards that could not be sustained, fraud went unchecked in a “public/private” ponzi scheme.

Why would fraud go unchecked? Could it be because they were complicit in such fraud? Could it be that putting the government in bed with business is a recipe for complicit disaster? Have we not learned this?

When in fact the government is suppose to be our greatest champion, protecting our rights as individuals to grow and prosper, they have become the prostitute of a drunk sailor.

So should we not hold Government accountable for neglecting the trust we put in it? Should we not hold them up to the highest standards since it is their standards that set and protect the law we are all subject to?

If we do not hold Government accountable first, we can never hope to hold Business accountable for anything.

Power To The People!

Apr 8, 2009 - 10:13 pm 147. view from afar:

Meryl, my thoughts exactly! What annoys me beyond anything is David signing peace, who’s peace is he defending? His own, scary that.

Marie Claude, the Anglo saxons aren’t the only at fault in the world crisis, if so the saxes are German, and that leaves precious few allies for the French to turn to. No the US isn’t madly in love with Europe, outside of the Obama elite, who worship anything european because it is so cool? (hello Manifest Destiny, which I believe isn’t taught in France, at least I haven’t seen it. It is by the way an old belief that the european had a destiny to rule the world by colonial manifest…or something like that, and all of Europe took part of in that belief to the degree that their world standing and discoveries permitted it). That Marie Claude is one reason for the French interest in helping the colonists to beat the British. They didn’t believe that the colonists could succeed without a European power behind them, and France wanted an indebted people to re-colonize…Oh and you are very right about George Washington, he was less than shining in the french and Indian war. How come if the French were so behind their Marquis, and we are so ungrateful to those who helped, does LaFayette (spelling) and his descendants have automatic American citizenship?

Apr 9, 2009 - 1:24 am 148. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Meryl, et al.
RE: [OT] Psalm 2

Why does Psalm 2 come to mind when I see the mocking diatribes from the Davids? — Meryl

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? — Psalm 2:1

Indeed.

RE: [OT] An Army of Davids

Glenn Reynolds would cringe at the thought of his famous book title being used in this manner, BUT, I suspect that with David S and DZunga and possibly even mvfreeman, we have—pardon the Army’s current advertising slogan—’An Army of One’.

They all behave the same way. Two out of the three even use the same sentence structure, form of logic and sign-offs.

Are ‘they’ suffering from multiple personality syndrome? Or just schitzie? [Note: This is not 'mocking'. It's a legit psychiatric question.]

RE: [OT] Bottom Line

They are all, in my honestly held opinion, sociopaths of the pathological liar form. You can’t take what they say as the truth about nearly everything they present here. They just spout propaganda that supports their agenda. And that propaganda, when looked into by myself, has ALWAYS been a lie. And I do believe that a number of others who’ve taken the time to look into their ‘evidence’ have found the same.

Therefore, all their presentations here have been for the REALLY ‘weak-minded’ people that their ilk prey upon. [Note: And I thank the vaunted American public education system for THAT.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[We must not let him think that this agency is a home for the weak-minded. -- Sherlock Holmes]

Apr 9, 2009 - 8:39 am 149. Jack:

BS alert. Biblical fanboys detected.

Apr 9, 2009 - 9:25 am 150. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Meryl, et al.
RE: Back ‘On-Topic’….

….vis-a-vis David S/DZunga and others….

….it is reported by reliable sources that 1 person in 5 is “amoral”, i.e., they do not believe in anything but themselves and what they can ‘get away with’.

That’s a rather high figure. But it does go far to explain the situation we find ourselves in today, regarding the government and big business. It also explains the ratio of people who post here on one side or the other….three guesses there…..

And last, but by no means ‘least’, it explains President Obama.

Look at the evidence of his associations: the good reverend Wright, Ayers, etc., etc.

Then again, look at all his campaign ‘promises’.

Finally, look at his White House stating that he did NOT ‘bow’ to a Muslim Sheik. What WAS he doing in that photo on Drudge? Looking for his long-lost teleprompter in the carpet?

This cretin we call a ‘president’ is, in my honestly held and supportable opinion, a pathological liar too. And on an order of magnitude far greater than the usual politician.

RE: A Thought

I would like to see some budding young psychologist do their doctoral dissertation on which political party or political ‘persuasion’ has the greatest concentration of sociopaths. A particular emphasis on ‘pathological liars’.

I think the result, if done and reported in an honest manner could be particularly ‘telling’. [Note: I say 'reported in an honest manner' because I remember how I perceived Baittel did their 'study' of American Male Sexuality in the late 80s-early 90s. When I asked them for the raw data, because of my suspicions about how they tabulated and reported the results, they refused to disclose it.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Figures don't lie, but liars figure.]

Apr 9, 2009 - 9:34 am 151. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Another ‘County’ Heard From

“BS alert. Biblical fanboys detected.” — Jack

I’ll wager that ‘Jack’ don’t know s— about the Bible.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ignorance here is less than bliss. -- Newsboys, Truth Be Known]

Apr 9, 2009 - 9:35 am 152. Joseph:

My pitchfork isn’t aimed at the banks. Obama is offering protection when he should be seeking it.

Apr 9, 2009 - 10:13 am 153. Marie Claude:

View from afar

the Anglo saxons aren’t the only at fault in the world crisis, if so the saxes are German, and that leaves precious few allies for the French to turn to.

only those who have blue eyes

No the US isn’t madly in love with Europe, outside of the Obama elite, who worship anything european because it is so cool? (hello Manifest Destiny, which I believe isn’t taught in France, at least I haven’t seen it. It is by the way an old belief that the european had a destiny to rule the world by colonial manifest…or something like that, and all of Europe took part of in that belief to the degree that their world standing and discoveries permitted it).

never heard of that, can you link me something ?

That Marie Claude is one reason for the French interest in helping the colonists to beat the British. They didn’t believe that the colonists could succeed without a European power behind them, and France wanted an indebted people to re-colonize…/i>

umm, weren’t the french settlers “Huguenots” ? so not very at ease in France since Louis XIV removed the “Edit de Nantes”

though, you are right, the help was also part of the remnent war that our both countries, England and France were pursuing.

does LaFayette (spelling) and his descendants have automatic American citizenship?

I don’t know, but I believe that Lafayette came back to France during the Revolution

Apr 9, 2009 - 11:14 am 154. LarryH:

We are witness to the Chicago roots of The One.

The Messiah’s comment would have made Al Capone proud. The “pitchfork” comment alludes to presidential protection(”Do you realize the risk you face … if …?”)

Protection payments made Al Capone a millionaire. The Messiah receives ‘payment’ of a different sort.

Apr 9, 2009 - 6:16 pm 155. David S:

@145. Meryl:

If David S WERE really a big fan of the truth (122) I believe he would be a lot more careful about mocking Jehovah at least, as an agnostic, leaving room for the possibility that there’s something he may not know.

Mocking Jehovah, Poseidon or Mars does not impact my interest in the truth. The truth is that man has worshipped many different mystical beings, and none has brought so much suffering to this world as Jehovah. You’ll have to pardon me if I mock a religion that is willing to kill in the name of peace. My mind is still open – but you need some pretty powerful evidence to prove the existence of an omnipotent Creator.

God is dead, folks. Oh, and Santa Claus is fake. A first grader could see through this crap. How can supposedly intelligent people justify such magical thinking?

God is a wonder of human ingenuity; a being that no human can comprehend. Oh, the irony.

Peace.

DS

Apr 9, 2009 - 8:43 pm 156. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: [OT] And He Proclaims…..

The truth is that man has worshipped many different mystical beings, and none has brought so much suffering to this world as Jehovah. — David S[tupid]

…his ‘interest in the truth’.

It’s too bad he wouldn’t know it if it bit him in the fourth-point-of-contact.

Case in point. He seems to forget that during the previous century atheists massacred more people than any other religious belief put together: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc., etc., etc.

If he were so interested in the ‘truth’, why does he leave that tid-bit out?

Three guesses. First two don’t count…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. I look forward to seeing the expression on his face when he meets God himself….at the judgment seat…..

P.P.S. Additionally, I look forward to a thread where a thorough discussion of God can be accomplished. Someplace where it is appropriate to take up much bandwidth discussing how David is so S[tupid]

[Stupid, adj., Ignorant and proud of it.]

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:53 am 157. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: How?

How can supposedly intelligent people justify such magical thinking? — David S

Simple. Because He and I have talked on occasion. On two such occasions He saved my sorry ass, just before I was to be ’snuffed’: once plummeting out of a black-night sky with a malfunctioning parachute and later in a snit with an 18-wheeler at interstate speeds.

Then again, I’ve had some dealings with representatives of the ‘other camp’ too.

I learn from personal experience. What do you do?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You're just jealous because the voices talk to ME...and others He wishes to help.]

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:56 am 158. David S:

@157. Chuck Pelto:

Because He and I have talked on occasion.

Have you ever read Julian Jaynes’ “The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind”? Your delusions don’t require ‘divine’ intervention.

On two such occasions He saved my sorry ass, just before I was to be ’snuffed’: once plummeting out of a black-night sky with a malfunctioning parachute and later in a snit with an 18-wheeler at interstate speeds.

Stressful situations that could easily provoke powerful and unfamiliar instincts.

Then again, I’ve had some dealings with representatives of the ‘other camp’ too.

Oh, do tell. The entertainment value here is exceeding my expectations.

I learn from personal experience. What do you do?

I follow the Scientific Method.

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning. A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation. This may involve the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

Of course, your methods could not be termed “scientific”.

[You're just jealous because the voices talk to ME...and others He wishes to help.]

I’ll say you need help Chuck, but not the kind you’re getting from the voices in your head. It’s not that I’m jealous – your “evidence” is just far too compelling, and I enjoy your “testimony”.

Please, do share…

Peace.

DS

Apr 10, 2009 - 7:17 am 159. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: [OT] David S and His ‘Interest’

Repeatedly we’ve seen David S express his “interest in the truth”. And I believe him. He IS interested in the truth. Why? Because in knowing the ‘truth’, he understands better how to lie.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Half a truth is often a great lie. -- Benjamin Franklin]

Apr 10, 2009 - 7:28 am 160. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: [OT] David vs. God

Stressful situations that could easily provoke powerful and unfamiliar instincts. — David S

Here’s an example of stupidity and half-truths for your consideration.

Notice the term “unfamiliar instincts”. This is the atheists answer to God. And, I like the way he added “powerful” to his ‘arg’. Indeed. He IS such.

Saved MY sorry ass….

RE: The ‘Other Camp’

Oh, do tell. The entertainment value here is exceeding my expectations. — David S

I have told. In other threads in this venue and a couple of others in the blogosphere. But David S either (1) wasn’t paying attention or (2) is too lazy to do a search.

Some others here might remember the accountings. But I’ll let David S do his own research. However, I’ll give him a clue. Search on my surname and the words “demented crow”.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There's more to this world than meets the normally recognized five senses.]

P.S. On this day when we REAL christians recognize the price He paid for us, I hope that this missive helps someone who hasn’t quite understood what was done so long ago for ALL of us.

Apr 10, 2009 - 7:36 am 161. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: [OT] David and Projection

I’ll say you need help Chuck, but not the kind you’re getting from the voices in your head. — David S

Why am I suddenly reminded of the sick psychiatrist, Dr. Jonathan Crane, who ran the mental institute for the criminally insane as he appears in the early part of Batman: The Dark Knight.

Batman Wannabe: We’re trying to help you.

Batman: I don’t NEED any help.

Dr. Crane: Not MY diagnosis.

David S, obviously playing the role of the sicko, bad-drug dealer-cum-psychiatrist.

My point is that with friends like mine, David S can go blow. But it would be better if he set his pride aside and learned from others.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Anyone else here notice how David S likes to say ‘Peace’? But all he brings is contention?

Apr 10, 2009 - 7:56 am 162. David S:

@159. Chuck Pelto:

Your communication with the “Lord” could just as easily be with the “Devil” – and there is no way you would be able to tell the difference. Your refusal to acknowledge your own insanity is the expected response.

Is there a good reason that you continue to argue for the existence of a higher power by reference to your own private delusions?

Mensa does not certify the sanity of members – only their test scores.

Peace.

DS

PS – You started personal attacks against me before I even visited the thread. Claiming that I “bring contention” is rather absurd.

Apr 10, 2009 - 11:24 am 163. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: Cross-Communications

Your communication with the “Lord” could just as easily be with the “Devil” — David S

If you knew what you were talking about, you’d realize that I had heard from that camp, as cross-talk in talking with Him. I’ve learned to discern the different sources.

Maybe it has something to do with having been a Radio-Telephone Operator (RTO) and being able to recognize the difference in voices over the radio net. That sort of skill may be a big help with my Christian walk of faith.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[He has risen, indeed!]

P.S. Have a Happy Easter Holiday. Try to learn something useful…..

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:10 pm 164. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: [OT] As I Said Earlier….

Is there a good reason that you continue to argue for the existence of a higher power by reference to your own private delusions? — David S

….I’ve got scads of evidence. All of which I’m certain you will, in your stupidity, deny. But I’ll wait for a thread where it is topical to discuss them with you.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Most of that evidence is historically accurate. And I’ll wager THAT puts the ‘fear’ in you.

[Atheist, n., One hoping to God that He doesn't exist.]

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:22 pm 165. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: [OT] Crazy!

Mensa does not certify the sanity of members – only their test scores. — David S

Well….

…you got me there. After all, I’m willing to jump out of a perfectly good airplane in flight, with a couple hundred pounds of equipment and 64 other equally ‘crazy’ men who would rather die than give up on the ideals proposed in the Constitution of the United States.

I guess, in YOUR ‘world’, cramped and pathetic as it must be, that IS ‘crazy’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[God is alive....and airborne-ranger qualified.]

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:46 pm 166. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Lest I forget….

…those 64 other ‘crazy’ guys must have been crazier than I am, as I was their jumpmaster and they trusted ME—of all people—to get them safely to the ground.

Go fig….

P.P.S. How many people, crazy or not, would trust YOU with their very lives?

Apr 10, 2009 - 1:55 pm 167. David S:

@163. Chuck Pelto:

Your communication with the “Lord” could just as easily be with the “Devil” — David S

If you knew what you were talking about, you’d realize that I had heard from that camp, as cross-talk in talking with Him.

My point stands affirmed. You believe you are in direct communication with “Him” as well as “that camp”.

I’ve learned to discern the different sources.

Your hubris knows no bounds. You are a simple tool.

Peace.

DS

PS – Your wager regarding my “fear” is one I would happily win as many times as you care to play. I have no fear of your delusions.

Apr 10, 2009 - 2:17 pm 168. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: Indeed….

My point stands affirmed. You believe you are in direct communication with “Him” as well as “that camp”. — David S

…that point being what? I can talk to God? Where did I deny that?

Isn’t it a pity that you can’t. Or rather, even more pitiful, you WON’T.

As for the concept of ‘hubris’…..

….since when is talking to God so ‘prideful’? After all, Christians and Hebrews down through the centuries have done it.

I suspect that it is more ‘prideful’ of someone who claims that NO ONE can, or rather should, talk to Him.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. As for your ‘fear’ of my ‘delusion’…..where did I suggest that? Rather, and your unwillingness to be ‘truthful’ about it, is that your fear is about God’s existence. Not about my belief in Him. My belief is inconsequential. His existence is much more profound. Especially for the likes of you.

And you said you have ‘interest in the truth’. I believe you. As I stated above in item #159. But you have no love of the truth. And that, in your latest series of missives is becoming more and more blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer.

Keep it up…..the world is watching…..

Apr 10, 2009 - 3:13 pm 169. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. A particular point of clarification….

I do not initiate communication with that ‘other camp’. They do it with me. And with numerous others. It’s frequently referred to as ‘temptation’. You know….the stuff you do all the time…..

Maybe you should learn better.

This is a good weekend to learn how. Visit the church of your ‘choice’ this Sunday morning…..learn something new……

Apr 10, 2009 - 3:25 pm 170. David S:

@168. Chuck Pelto:

It isn’t the talking to God that worries me so much as your contention of receiving a direct reply. The hubris comes in when you think you can tell the difference between God and the Devil. You can’t.

I suspect that it is more ‘prideful’ of someone who claims that NO ONE can, or rather should, talk to Him.

I don’t claim that no one should talk to their imaginary friends. I do grow concerned when they claim that they receive a reply. It’s not a fear of the existence of God – that’s absent from my mind. It’s a fear for the mental capacity of my fellow men. If you are, as you claim, a member of Mensa, your inability to recognize the obvious bodes very poorly for those lower on the bell curve. I’m glad you are not representative of a large population.

@169. Chuck Pelto:

I do not initiate communication with that ‘other camp’. They do it with me. And with numerous others. It’s frequently referred to as ‘temptation’. You know….the stuff you do all the time…..

Maybe you should learn better.

Take a look at your initiation of communication at #22 and “speak of the ‘devil’” comment at #32. You gave into temptation by initiating communication with David S again. You keep on calling me S[tupid] because you are too scared to consider that S[atan] might be mocking you.

Just by way of clarification, I’m a a licensed minister and I don’t need to be told how to worship, what to worship, or if to worship by anyone. I simply believe that the secular roots of our nation need attention that ‘religious’ persons clearly are too preoccupied to attend to. I’ve spent my Sundays in many forms of worship, but cannibalism is not on my agenda. What’s with worshipping the human sacrifice, anyway?

Yet you mock the Prince of…

Peace.

DS

PS – Where did you develop such a fondness for the fourth point of contact?

Apr 10, 2009 - 6:12 pm 171. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: [OT] Sounds Like….

It isn’t the talking to God that worries me so much as your contention of receiving a direct reply. — David S

….what we call in the Army a ‘personal problem’. And you suggested that I needed ‘help’.

Jealousy does not look good on you.

RE: [OT] Look Who’s Talking

The hubris comes in when you think you can tell the difference between God and the Devil. — David S

As you failed to read/comprehend, millions upon millions of Christians and Hebrews have done it. And millions upon millions of them do it today. You just refuse to accept the idea.

You can’t. — David S

Oh yes I can.

However, YOU can do it too. That is if you have the courage to put aside your vast pile of pride. [Note: And you were accusing ME of 'hubris'? Sounds like serious 'projection', that.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)

PS – Where did you develop such a fondness for the fourth point of contact? — David S

It comes from two aspects (1) being a paratrooper and (2) TRYING to be polite. Do a search and you MIGHT find the answer to item (1)…..

P.P.S. So…..

Yet you mock the Prince of… — David S

…you’re beginning to recognize Christ? Good for you! And on this weekend, I consider it auspicious. That is unless you’re referring to yourself as said Prince of Peace…..

Apr 11, 2009 - 11:16 am 172. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: [OT] Really?

I’m a a licensed minister…. — David S

Church of the Poisoned Mind?

Here’s a question for you….

Has the Christ come in the flesh?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The most simple-minded way of proving a systems effectiveness is the ability to win bets based on it.]

Anyone wanna bet on his ‘answer’?

Apr 11, 2009 - 11:18 am 173. David S:

@171. Chuck Pelto:

Jealousy does not look good on you.

Jealous? No, I’m simply concerned for the mental health of my fellow man. When even intelligent persons are so deceived, it is a bad sign for society. Your excessive faith in yourself is your failure.

The hubris comes in when you think you can tell the difference between God and the Devil. — David S

You just refuse to accept the idea.

The evidence is lacking to prove your thesis. Your delusions are not divine.

…you’re beginning to recognize Christ? Good for you! And on this weekend, I consider it auspicious. That is unless you’re referring to yourself as said Prince of Peace…..

Your comprehension can only be aided by ambiguity.

@172. Chuck Pelto:

Has the Christ come in the flesh?

That’s a funny question. The short answer is “no”. Imaginary things don’t come in the flesh. If you want to rephrase the question, we can take a stab at what you are actually trying to prove…

Anyone wanna bet on his ‘answer’?

I’ll recuse myself from that bet.

The universe is a rich and complex place, but there is no room for the omnipotent. We make our own gods, if we so choose, but they are only the imaginings of our ancestors. Moral teachings are great, but to derive mystical and metaphysical impossibilities to justify them is foolish.

Read the Jefferson bible – you will find the tome much improved at the hand of a master of his age. Drop the invisible pink unicorn act and you might make more sense.

Peace.

DS

PS – Cannibalism is a poor substitute for Cannabis.

Apr 11, 2009 - 6:18 pm 174. Chuck Pelto:

TO: David S
RE: [OT] ‘funny question’

As if what God has created is evil? It’s only what men do with it that makes for ‘evil’.

And you claim to be so much the ‘minister’ and ‘expert’ on christianity. I think over on Scalia’s thread I just tore a new hole in your fourth-point-of-contact.

RE: The Evidence

“The evidence is lacking to prove your thesis. Your delusions are not divine.” — David S

As I stated earlier, you’d deny any evidence I offered. Why? Because it would shatter your carefully crafted ‘delusions’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[He is risen!]

Apr 12, 2009 - 9:49 am 175. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Thanks for answering my question. You’re one of the few how have admitted they are from Satan. The others, for the most part, do a Monty Python ‘Run Away!’…..

Apr 12, 2009 - 9:50 am

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