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Obama’s Corrosive Communitarian ‘Service’ for Students
His proposal undermines individual freedom and eats away at the ethos of truly liberal education.
These programs, with their anti-liberal communitarian orientation, also divert from — and indeed may subvert — traditional liberal arts learning, which has already been severely eroded and supplanted by sundry “multicultural studies” that further the special interests of various groups and deprecate American individualism. What students need is more liberal education, for it uniquely teaches, in Egger’s words, “the advantages of respecting others’ nature as human beings, of trading with them, and of contributing to the civic institutions on which any free society depends.” (Of course, it is appropriate in several disciplines, such as philosophy and economics, to study about communitarianism — hardly the same as going to college to be indoctrinated in it.)
Community service programs based in educational institutions, moreover, play on the pity that students naturally feel for the poor and underprivileged. The essential methodology of these programs, which have little or no intellectual content, is to appeal to students’ emotions, creating what Egger calls an “altruistic feel-good aura.” Immersing students in this emotional miasma is deeply antithetical to education’s mission, and especially that of higher education, namely, to train the mind and foster logical reasoning and analysis.
Obama’s vision of service is problematic on yet other counts. It is hard to see how the plan could truly be, as now amended, merely “voluntary.” The plan would only add more community service to that already performed in high school, where such service is already virtually a requirement for admission to college and thus hardly voluntary. Nor would community service performed by college students in exchange for a $4,000 tax credit be exactly a voluntary transaction, even if it were, according to the letter of the law, that students could freely choose not to perform service or not to accept financial reward.
And what of the costs to the taxpayer of Obama’s gigantic “voluntarism” program? How much additional federal and perhaps state funding would it take to finance the tax credits for college students as well as to organize and to administer more community service in schools? How many more administrators would “need” to be hired to manage the millions of new service “transactions”?
How heavy-handed would these bureaucrats be? How ideologically driven would management be? What would be its decisions as to what exactly defines an acceptable service project? Would there be, for example, opportunities for pro-life work? Furthermore, would not existing and established charitable organizations gladly recruit students to expand their already prodigious efforts?
Finally, there have been on-the-ground observers of existing service programs in educational settings who maintain that they contribute to a culture of hypocrisy and even cynicism. That is, with the dangling of rewards such as admission to college or $4,000 tax credits, many students view service as a mere means to an end, a nonessential. According to Carlos Ramos-Mrosovsky, who commented on the subject while a senior at Princeton University, “this darker side of student volunteerism … can undermine young people’s respect for and interest in genuine volunteerism. … In their zeal to recruit Samaritans, colleges have attracted a great number of Pharisees.” Worse, Ramos-Mrosovsky documents cases of bad faith and out-and-out fraud on the part of students to game the service system. Examples include plagiarism, creating original projects to demonstrate leadership rather than participating in existing ones understood to be more beneficial to the needy, and taking credit for service actually performed by parents.
Obama should not, in short, institute this grand, “volunteer” community service plan. Charity is, of course, moral, and students as well as others should be encouraged to help those in need, such as by working in soup kitchens and visiting the elderly and sick. But individuals should be allowed to freely choose to engage in such service on their own time and via churches or other organizations of their own choosing.
Let that be the gist of Obama’s public call to community service. What is more, the president-elect himself would perform an immeasurable service by publicly defending and supporting the kind of traditional liberal education that nurtures a work ethic built on individual freedom and responsibility — and charitable works freely rendered.
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Dr. Candace de Russy, a nationally recognized writer and lecturer on education and cultural issues, is a regular contributor to National Review Online’s Phi Beta Cons.
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79 Comments
1. Don:Well, a true revolutionary (in a libertarian way), would make civilian and military service strictly voluntary. That service would have a two year (and for the military a three year) commitment, and such service would be a prerequisite for the right to vote. Heinlein described a society like this in his book “Starship Troopers” (please do not compare the movie to the book). Most of the citizenry in this society choose to focus on their own lives and do anything they wish (as long as they pay their taxes) except vote. The vote is only for those who sacrifice part of their lives for service to the greater good. So if Mr Ob is suggesting something like that he’ll have my support (along with an awful lot of O’s and NCO’s inspired by Heinlein). Some will complain that such an idea is “Fascistic” and “oppressive”, but how can that be when this is strictly up to individual free will? If you sacrifice you earn the right to have more responsibilities, if you don’t, “sei gsund” and do whatever you want.
Dec 4, 2008 - 4:20 am 2. Bill:Freedom does not exist in a vacuum…there is a cause and effect upon the whole system.Its just more erosion to the Constitution when we change the premiss to suit a few. the few who want it their way …based upon personal ideals ,feelings and persception way to The “definitions” of freedom are spelled out in the Constitution. This is the foundation. Let us respect it as it is written. Our freedoms demand
responsibility and nurturing, Good intentions are are exactly that ,”good intention”.
When the heck will this nonsense die out. Read the Constitution. Read history. OBama’s carrot and stick approach is the commericalization of our ideals ,a process allowing us to contemplate the bartering away of long held truths in exchange for deception…( we are giving our freedoms …Freedoms bought with blood and hard work ..we wont get them back in our life time )can we be bought at a price ? How gulliable are we to be suckered by this nonsense? Dumb down America and we will all suffer…even the ones in power. Taking away freedoms already granted is slavery.
Dec 4, 2008 - 4:34 am 3. fear Obama:I might change my name from ‘fear’ Obama to ‘tolerate’ Obama.
Dec 4, 2008 - 4:43 am 4. Karin:Don, what you suggest is a fundamental change in our constitutional make-up, which I’m not prepared to back you on.
This subject was covered on Sweetness & Light, with about 350 comments ensuing. There was a lot of discussion about the unintended consequences, which so commonly come with liberal initiatives. Public “volunteerism” is like public anything, such as public bathrooms, public housing, public transportation, public pools.
This plan would be scrapped once pedophiles are discovered to be volunteering in schools, drug afficiandos are stealing out of little old ladies’ medicine cabinets, ID thieves are stealing sick peoples’ SS checks and numbers, etc. Liberals, Obama included, just do not think things through. Or else they’re just starry-eyed kumbaya singers.
Maybe I’m just thinking the worst about people. Am I wrong? witness the Walmart stampede.
Dec 4, 2008 - 6:12 am 5. marsouin:Isn’t government-sponsored and managed national progams for youth reminiscent of dedicated socialist regimes such Fascist Germany and Italy, and Communist China, Norht Korea, and the Soviet Union?
Dec 4, 2008 - 6:35 am 6. RE:Bill,
When the heck will this nonsense die out. Read the Constitution. Read history.
I hate to break the new to you, but this is not a matter of ignorance and understanding. These people have no intention of living by or within the bounds of the US Constitution. They are out to undermine and destroy it, our heritage, and our understanding of history and human nature because those values stand as obstacles to their Utopian fantasy.
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are at odds with collectivism. They know this well. They also know that they can only destroy it through stealth, deception, and deceit.
Dec 4, 2008 - 6:37 am 7. Thinking Person:If a student gets paid ($4,000 for college) does that still fall under “volunteering”? Isn’t it called a “job” when one gets paid for performing a service? Loving how old slick Obama is taking the back door to all of this. How long till he penalizes those who don’t join his service by charging them an extra $4,000? Soon it will be mandatory tai-chi on the lawn under the loud speakers every morning wearing our government issue yoga pants. Now we know how he plans on using those “community organizing” skills of his.
Dec 4, 2008 - 6:54 am 8. jerry:One of the most destructive aspects of the volunteer program as described here is the burden on government – that is the taxpayers – to fund the expenditures associated with it. It will become a future “must fund” obligation and thus burden the system that supports it. It is no different than demanding that banks fund the purchasing of homes by those not likely to be able to repay.
It would seem then that this is Obama’s first foray into implementing the Cloward-Pavin manipulation of society. That is, if enough requirements can be foisted upon government, it will fail, thus leading to stronger government controls – a dictatorship of the proletariat.
Dec 4, 2008 - 7:10 am 9. Robert Hurley:I guess no one remembers the draft. Actually, I don’t think a mandatory system would work because there are too many smug self satified people who have no interest in helping their neighbors
Dec 4, 2008 - 7:22 am 10. Thinking Person:Robert Hurley….You’re right. We’re all “smug self sati(s)fied people who have no interest in helping their neighbors”. Thank God Obama is going to show us how right? Never once occured to me to volunteer for anything at all until Obama came up with the genius idea! Volunteer? Who would have thunk it! I actually have neighbors?
Dec 4, 2008 - 7:37 am 11. RE:Thinking Person,
Of course you must realize that all the billions of dollars of American charitable donations and millions of man-hours of American volunteerism now being given count for absolutely nothing – because the government does not control it and therefore cannot manipulate it to its own ends.
It is therefore illegetimate and unworthy of mention.
/sarcasm
Dec 4, 2008 - 7:54 am 12. Carl D. Kaminer:A forty-thousand dollar tax credit for 100 hours of community service… that’s $40/hour. That’s also a lot of keggers at the frat house.
Dec 4, 2008 - 8:13 am 13. Carolb:“college students who perform 100 hours of service to receive a tax credit guaranteeing that the first $4,000 of their college education is entirely free.”
The first $4,000? Oh, I thought it was an annual thing. But, since it’s a tax credit, doesn’t that mean that the student (or his/her family) will have to shell out that much money in cash in order to get the credit for that year? For families like mine, that would be difficult. Plus, how would this affect the current credits/deductions for education (i.e, Hope)? Right now, you can only use one of them. Would it be the same with the new Obama credit?
But, also, how would the IRS know when someone claims the credit if a student performed the community service? Would it be the honor system? So many questions…
Dec 4, 2008 - 8:21 am 14. Dr. Lumplevin:I want to be the first to get paid to volunteer to help poor, illegal African immigrants living on welfare benifits in Boston public housing projects.
Thank you Pres. Obama for inspiring a new generation of youth like me even though I am in myb 60’s.
Dec 4, 2008 - 8:36 am 15. Karin:That’s right, CarolB. Today’s volunteering is free. Watch how much it costs under the O plan. Imagine the beauracracy, the forms, the approvals, the validations, the mailings, the verifications, the certifications, the political hemming and hawing and posturing. Plus you need office space for regional, district, county, state and federal levels, with bodies to fill them and clerks to work for them. Different departments for different age brackets (and Obama’s plan goes all the way up into senior citizenship. Do you ever get to retire?) The gays and lesbians would have to have their own advocacy group…. I could go on and on and already have.
Dec 4, 2008 - 8:36 am 16. Ann:Always remember that the goal of those who support mandated/encouraged/paidoff volunteerism is to move to the next step. It is NOT to protect, defend and support the Constitution!
They see the Constitution as an obstacle, and Obama’s own recorded words played frequently toward the end of the election weeks demonstrated that.
Here’s the problem: I don’t know how long I can pretend that it is a serious conversation when it includes the supposed “dilemma”–”well, don’t they realize how this impacts personal freedoms and the Constitution??”
Of course they know! That’s precisely their point and their goal! Sheesh. They want power over individual lives and it is obviously necessary to LIMIT personal freedom in order to increase the potential for gaining more of that power.
Save your energy, folks, and move, NOW, to objective fear, loathing and verbal protest. That’s where we need to be spending our energy.
This reminds me so much of the classic “divorce announcement” where everyone is “horrified” saying, “we had no idea you were having so much trouble in your marriage!”….and then they want to engage in the “conversational process” so they can somehow get themselves up to speed with the reality that the marriage has indeed fallen apart. While they, these well-meaning friends, are dragging the divorcees through this, they are pretending also that perhaps things will change and the divorce won’t happen, because of the conversations they are having.
I can assure you from personal experience, by the time the plan for the divorce has been verbalized even semi-publicly, the time for productive talking is long gone.
Same here. They know exactly what they’re doing. For us to act like this is somehow a fresh conversation that has potential for changed goals on their part is laughable and frustrating.
Dec 4, 2008 - 9:36 am 17. Robert Hurley:TP:
How much volunteering do you and yor family do
Dec 4, 2008 - 9:57 am 18. Robert Hurley:Lets have a little poll here. How many of your volunteer? What do you do about any injustice?
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:00 am 19. Thinking Person:Robert Hurley….My family volunteers quite a bit I’d like to think. I work with a group that is works in tandem with our local police/sheriff dept to be a first line when children are involved in a sexual abuse situation. We help videotape for future prosecutions (in a safe envoirnment) and help find services for the kids and their families. My own kids help with the local angel tree project at Christmas time distributing gifts. I help organize monthly parties and donations of books for our local Head Start of which my spouse and I also make a large donation to each year. I help deliver for a program to every grade and middle school in town called “Backpacks for Kids” that provides healthy food items for needy kids to take home over the weekend who won’t have food at home. There are several more that my family as a whole have helped out on over the years. All volunteer. No pay or pats on the back. Just a great feeling inside. Isn’t that what volunteering is about?
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:29 am 20. Tom Holsinger:Note how this discriminates against students from poor families who have to work for pay to make ends meet, and don’t have the time for volunteering. This applies in particular to immigrant families whose children will be the first in their family to attend college at all.
It is classic Demcratic elitism.
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:36 am 21. Karin:I work at the animal shelter, caring for abandoned & abused dogs and cats. That’s justice to me, since they did nothing to deserve such cruelty.
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:41 am 22. J:I donate my accounting services to a community organization.
What do you do, Robert?
A completly voluntary program that you can opt to use or not? And it requires you to get down into the girt and take a look at your own community instead of turning a blind eye?
Well that clashes with my gleeful ignorance of the world around me, so Im going to call it communism as well.
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:54 am 23. jdgjtr:I have lived in several communities (my parents moved a lot + military service)that I do not feel any attachment to. I wouldn’t require my children to do anything I wouldn’t do- why would I require them to do community service for people who dislike them ? On the other hand, I have had jobs since I was 15, bagging groceries, clerking, etc, and I consider that better community service than “volunteering”. Not only did I earn money, I also learned good work ethics, too.
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:58 am 24. susan:robert hurley, plaguing message boards about your teenage crush zerobama doesn’t constitute volunteering
BTW, typical leftist crap, volunteering must be paid somehow. It’s just right wing imbeciles doing it for free.
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:09 am 25. Jay:to paraphrase Mr. Arlo Guthrie in Alice’s Restuarant ” I want to kill, I want to see blood and guts and veins between my teeth…” Don’t you think we’ll have a lot more of that?
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:16 am 26. Ann:Personal volunteer work: caring for elderly (particularly those who don’t have immediate family around to help with every day things); baking for multi-cultural community youth group; playing piano for residents of alzheimer’s units; give books and money to support education in Columbia, S.A.; purchase shoes and pay for delivery to street children in Peru, S.A.; correspondence with prisoners of conscience in countries with totalitarian governments. These are things I am routinely involved with at varying levels from time to time, according to opportunity and Minnesota winter weather (we live far out in the country)
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:18 am 27. J:jdgjtr,
Why do you have this ridiculous idea that its required? Because the incentive is too good to pass up? Heres a hint: thats why the incentive is so good.
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:19 am 28. uprollysuck:seriously, you understand socialism about as well as a mouse understands bioethics. it would be sad if it weren’t so damn amusing.
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:32 am 29. Vivictius:The incentives are not that good. Even if you are a full time student you will not be making enough to pay much if any taxes anyhow. I worked construction during the summer while getting my engineering degree, making ~$19/hr and I ended up getting all of my tax deductions back most years. For those people who spout some nonsence about that not $19/hr not being much, thats over the median income in this country and enough to make a decent living away from the overprice places like NY or LA.
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:35 am 30. Karin:J, jdgjtr probably got that ridiculous notion of requirement from Obama’s original web posting. “Require” is O’s word, not jdg’s. He only hushed that up after the blogosphere made a stink. It was his original intent, along with a sea of brownshirts to do his bidding.
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:40 am 31. momof3:It’s been well proven that right-ers give and volunteer more than libs. “Who really Gives” is a great book about it. ALthough, much like every other freebie he’s tossing, I’ll take the tuition exemption/forgiveness part. If I’m going to pay for it eventually-and we all are-I might as well get something out of it first.
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:41 am 32. MarkD:The colleges will raise tuition by $4,000. Lucy always moves the football.
My freedom costs way more than $4,000.
Dec 4, 2008 - 12:32 pm 33. Robert Hurley:I volunteer in an inner city near to me once a week to mentor kids who have dropped out of school. They suffer because they live in an envirnonment that cheats them daily. The schools are lousy and only 30% of the kids in this city graduate. Food is more expensive because there are no Wallmarts or supermarket in the city. Of course the prison is there and a nice sewerage plant. No one from the burbs want to go there because of crime, poverty and drugs. Yet they are worthy of our attention and dare I say love and if you go you will learn more than you anticipate. For those who think the private sector solves all problems, it provides stark evidence that is not true. As a Christian, I feel we havean obligation to do more than send money and to get at the root of the problems. Chalk it up to the damn good samaritan parable
Dec 4, 2008 - 12:53 pm 34. Dr. Bukk:One need look no further than your local courts to see that managing the community service sentences handed out by judges costs more to administrate than the value of the services. I’m especially dreading all the pedophile grandpas “mentoring” children, as is planned.
Dec 4, 2008 - 1:13 pm 35. redfrizzyhair:MarkD, you are correct, the colleges will just raise their tuition…
This is just another feel good democrat time and money waster.
Dems, get off of your fat lazy asses and do something. Achieve something.
Dec 4, 2008 - 1:22 pm 36. Kristy:I have two daughters that are slaving at college. They are not boozing, they are not sleeping with their boyfriend. They are intelligent humans. that is what we need in this country. Get rid of the Hollywood elites and the snooty dems with their arugula and red wine.
For those who think the private sector solves all problems, it provides stark evidence that is not true.
Nothing’s perfect but the private sector will always outperform the government in matters like this. The government should be limited to defense and paving roads.
Dec 4, 2008 - 1:23 pm 37. redfrizzyhair:Dr Bukk you are correct too.
This is going to be an incredibly frustrating and long 4 years. I am finally starting to believe that this is Carter 2, wow.
Dec 4, 2008 - 1:24 pm 38. Robert Hurley:Kristy:
In other words we just turn a blind eye to the urban problems. If you are a Christian, is that what we are called to do? The private sector has a roll but they are not going to go in there out of the goodness of their hearts. I work for one and what they have to be concerned about is profit. Given that do you still think the the governement has no roll to play or do you just condemn those kids who are in their predicament because they had the misfortune to be born and live there
Dec 4, 2008 - 1:45 pm 39. susan:“I volunteer in an inner city near to me once a week to mentor kids who have dropped out of school.”
possibly teaching them the miracles of communism and electing a black president is the solution of all problems because it will clean the sould of nasty whites worldwide. Poor kids, disadvantaged and trained to be even more disadvantaged.
Dec 4, 2008 - 2:05 pm 40. Jm:@Robert Hurley
Dec 4, 2008 - 2:42 pm 41. tanstaafl:I wonder, did Jesus teach compulsion or compassion. Just remember, when institution laws, you are authorizing force – force you have no right to authorize. Are you allowed to take you neighbors car because he has 2? The answer of course is no, so why would you give the government the authorization to take someones time away (especially when you do not have the “right”), or authorize them to take anything from anyone when you and they have no right to do so.
There is an inverse relationship between “forced” or required volunteerism/do-gooderism and the pleasure or rewarding one might glean from freely interacting with fellow human beings in a positive way.
There is an inverse relationship between forced or mandatory charitable giving and the desire to give charitably.
Anyway, Barry & Michelle need to put their money where their mouths are. I think their charitable contributions on their tax returns were quite minimal, even after they leaped into the $million+ income category.
So, Mr. President to be, lead by example and maybe charitable giving and “volunteerism” will become inspired.
But tying volunteerism to the government returning to the people more of the peoples’ money or tying volunteerism to getting a student loan or whatever is simply a more insidious way to grow big government.
It’s simply not the government’s business, not that anyone is paying particular attention to the Constitution these days.
Dec 4, 2008 - 2:52 pm 42. tanstaafl:Recall that at the time of the gigantic Indian Ocean earthquake and tsunami in 2004, the United States gave enormously in money and supplies. All Arab countries combined, some extraordinarily oil rich, gave, essentially, diddly squat to their fellow suffering Muslims in Indonesia.
So much was collected in the Indonesian tsunami relief fund that Bill Clinton is still personally overseeing the distribution of those monies, 4 years later. (you might wonder how much has actually reached the affected people, even after all this time, a phenomenon that certainly impacts charitable giving elsewhere, especially in Africa where pennies on the dollar might…might…reach actual suffering human beings…)
Anyway, maybe Barack & friends could lecture the Arabs instead of lecturing American citizens.
Dec 4, 2008 - 3:14 pm 43. drummersdad:Relax. My kids were required to put in 40 hours of community service to graduate from high school here in San Jose, CA, as you point out. It’s a standard requirement here. It was no big deal. They accrued the hours painlessly. My son had well over 100 hours from church work and community service. Obama probably has no idea that such a requirement already exists, just as he does not realize that the average high school graduate knows more of a foreign language than he does.
Tell O to leave us alone; we’ll handle it. And he should tell his VP to contribute more to the community as well.
Dec 4, 2008 - 3:38 pm 44. Old_Airman_2000:Folks, we already have a volunteer program of national service. It is called the military. Let today’s and tomorrow’s youth earn their citizenship the classic way it has always been done throughout history. Robert Heinlein’s Starship Troopers was a description of classic Greek citizenship when all able-bodied men, with land, had the responsibility to defend the polis when called upon. In fact, they had to provide their own kit. Failure to perform this duty was a disgrace and a person could be punished for this failure. This attitude has not been out vogue as long as you think. As late as WWII, American men volunteered in droves after Pearl Harbor. There was no shortage of manpower to fight Japan and Germany. While there may have been a draft, millions of men volunteered for service and left their families behind for the duration. I think Heinlein had it correct. One has to be worthy of citizenship. Obama’s talk is namby-pamby B.S., plain and simple.
Dec 4, 2008 - 4:52 pm 45. Robert Hurley:Poor susan just spewing more venom – You must be fun to be with
Dec 4, 2008 - 8:37 pm 46. AnninCA:This fear about this idea seems a bit over-the-top to me. It’s an old idea, been around for ages, and isn’t particularly effective or interesting to me, anyway.
Usually, all those volunteers are more of a problem to keep organized. I think the peace corps improved when it ceased to be so popular.
Dec 4, 2008 - 10:29 pm 47. Stop Common Purpose:Barack Obama is a Communitarian, although you will not have heard him use the term during his election campaign. Americans will get a shock when the truth of his hidden agenda becomes known and they find out his real intentions. Bear in mind that Obama is simply a front-man for the New World Order Communitarians.
Communitarians want to create a post-modern, post-democratic feudal society run by a small number of rich and powerful people with everyone else working as peasants. In order to achieve their objectives they must destroy the middle class and the nation state.
More about this evil and dictatorial philosophy here: http://www.stopcp.com/cpphilosophy.php
Dec 4, 2008 - 11:22 pm 48. Barnett:There is much, much more to this situation.First, are the logistics.Middle School and the first several years of High School find children dependent on parents for transportation.A great deal of parental time is spent working while many children in high school must work to earn to afford essentials and to be able to save for college.Middle School children are simply too, too young to be placed into unsupervised and unstructured circumstances.More importantly, these years are for learning , developing skills, helping around the house with responsibilities,and socializing. High School kids have extracurricular activities, sports, art, music,drama,debate,etc.Another important consideration is the issue of safety in the inner city and in the suburbs, and possible exploitation of the children.There certainly are not enough
Dec 5, 2008 - 2:33 am 49. marymcl:hours for homework and lessons and practicing.
These are years for parental authority- not state -sponsored mandates- usurping the family and parental auspices and involvement.That is what Nazi Germany required with the goal of getting the children involved in the Nazi Movement and away from the parents to be able to become the primary influence. It breaks up family time, too often dinner time, the one meal the family needs to be together.There is nothing more important during these years than being with one’s family and being a child.
I know, very well about volunteering, since I have done it since a young age.It is for children, who have good grades, and the ability to have access to a car, who can afford it, and who have the personality of trustworthiness and are responsible.
The strongest efforts must be made and instituted to insure this never occurs. There is something about the Federal government insinuating itself into the daily lives of children, beginning at the age of 10, that should strike fear into everyone’s heart and mind.
Robert Hurley – You are missing the point entirely. Mandatory service of any kind is not volunteer service. Period. And no one, let me repeat that, NO-ONE owes you or the federal government an account of their volunteerism or lack thereof. It’s called freedom.
Volunteer to your heart’s content. Pat yourself on the back for it all you want, too. But try to find some time to acquaint yourself with the Bill of Rights and then thank God and all your lucky stars you’re an American.
Dec 5, 2008 - 5:09 am 50. deguello:Obama is doing what all dictator wannabees do: create an army of street thugs to intimidate dissent.It’s not the first time Social Service has been used as an excuse for political repression;think SS.
Dec 5, 2008 - 5:49 am 51. hp:It is completely predictable that Obama’s plan, if implemented nationwide, would greatly infect this nation further with the very communitarian and anti-individualist political ideology that produced such disastrous socialist and Marxist regimes in Europe and elsewhere.
How heavy-handed would these bureaucrats be? How ideologically driven would management be? What would be its decisions as to what exactly defines an acceptable service project? Would there be, for example, opportunities for pro-life work?
methinks the pre-election attacks on and full out shutting down of free speech, particularly on the net, basically answers those. we either get with their program or else suffer the consequences waged against us.
@robert hurley it is only the most miserable among our populations who lash out and try as desperately as your (monotonous) words do to control others. good luck with that.
ps how much IS obama paying you to (unsuccessfully) stalk this board, anywhos? better yet, let me guess. you’re one of the free speech deprecating folkses from atlanta.
)
Dec 5, 2008 - 5:52 am 52. Robert Hurley:Marymlc – Who is our neighbor and if you are a Christian what is your obligation to our neighbors?
You talk about your rights as an American, but as a Christian what are your obligations? It seems you are missing the point. If you are not a Christian and don’t believe you have any obligations, I have no argument with you. In any case no one is going to force people to do anything. But that does not mean we have no obligation. By the way I am not doing anything to pat myself on the back, I am trying to learn what my obligations are by encountering people where they live
Dec 5, 2008 - 7:02 am 53. Karin:What Barnett talked about above is what gave people the most creeps when this was discussed on Sweetness&Light. Who knows who might be knocking on your door, wanting to toss a ball or something with your kids? One woman envisioned her own child being sent to some inner-city hellhole to volunteer (over her dead body). This whole thing will go nowhere. It just doesn’t have the public support, and too much public hate. I think the most that will happen is a PSA saying, “comeon, go out and get involved.”
BTW Robert Hurley, that post starting with “Poor Susan…’ Is that your compelling arguement? Impressive.
Dec 5, 2008 - 7:03 am 54. Robert Hurley:Given the amount of hate here, I would hesitate to say that even volunteering would be any sort of a positive contribution. I can just see how that wouldturn into a blood sport
Dec 5, 2008 - 7:43 am 55. Thinking Person:Robert…I think the point most here are trying to make is that when one is compelled to do good works, it ceases to be volunteering. As shown by some posts here today, we, as Americans, do a LOT of volunteering without need of being told to. Forcing people to do good makes doing good become a burden and will in the end, hurt those most in need. There are those in all honesty, shouldn’t be around the aged, the infirm or the very young.
Dec 5, 2008 - 8:34 am 56. Robert Hurley:TP In the first place this is a false issue as it would never happen – what I am asking is what is our obligation to our neighbor and how do we fullfill it if you believe we do have an obligation
Dec 5, 2008 - 9:39 am 57. Thinking Person:Robert….I guess that’s where we differ somewhat. I never go at volunteering due to feeling obligated to my neighbor. Personally (I’m going to get bashed for saying this part), I don’t feel we do have an obligation to take care of our neighbors. That being said I do think it says a lot about a person/society that does choose to help those less fortunate in their community but as for an obligation? I just don’t buy that part of the argument. I’m hoping that most Americans WANT to help out the needy though. I also don’t think you’re right that we wouldn’t be coerced into “volunteering” in the future somehow. Well, I should have prefaced that part with I think those in charge will TRY to make it mandatory but that they probably won’t succeed due to public outrage.
Dec 5, 2008 - 10:01 am 58. deguello:Hey Robert: Why don’t you go volunteer to cut sugar in Cuba? Hopefully, it might lead to a heart attack,that would prevent you from indoctrinating your unfortunate students with the liberal drivel that produced the urban squalor you are suppposedly trying to help them escape.BTW stop with the self righteous Christian pose;you are no more christian than Rev.Wright. Oh yes! I am an atheist, and :I HATE YOUR GUTS!
Dec 5, 2008 - 10:40 am 59. Robert Hurley:TP – I appeciate your honesty. I was trying to ague from a Judeo-Christian perpective, but I do not believe in forcing anyone to do service and I am sure it will never happen here
Dec 5, 2008 - 10:42 am 60. ew:The liberal illuminati mandating community service takes the “volunteer” out of it. I know in theory, this could seem like a great idea… but just the fact that kids often halfway do things they feel like they are “forced” to do (even though not officially forced, parents will make the kids do it.) Also, many states already have grades based scholarships. With the amount of money our country is already in debt, giving $4,000 to each kid doesn’t make sense.
Dec 5, 2008 - 11:33 am 61. susan:robert hurley lecturing us about what it is to be a christian
but leftist like you normally think that religion is the opium of the masses and should be abolished?
Hypocritical as usual
Dec 5, 2008 - 12:46 pm 62. Robert Hurley:Poor susan – I am going to enjoy the next eight years. Somehow I doubt if you will.
Dec 5, 2008 - 5:58 pm 63. tanstaafl:It’s creepy to maintain you should help your fellow man because you are a good Christian.
Creepy that that should be a rationale for demonstrating what should be a natural empathy, no religious justification need be involved.
Most people I’ve encountered who want me to know they’re a “Christian” are mainly hoping to go to the right place
when the curtain falls or get brownie points for their immortal souls.
Beyond hoping for a good outcome for their personal lives, they haven’t really struck me as charitable or trustworthy.
I have news for those people, “God” (Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, whomever) ain’t watching
A good “Christian” (a really good one) would be hoping that his fellow man would enjoy the next 4, 8, 16, 32, whatever years. Since the “Christian” impulse purports to be founded in altruism and hoping the best for all people.
Dec 5, 2008 - 6:19 pm 64. Nate`:It is diffucult for me to come up with someone who has done more to help the working poor of this country in the last half century than Sam Walton has done by reducing the price of essentials and modest luxuries.
Most volunteerism is wasted. Cheaper food for the working poor isn’t because as long as it isn’t free it isn’t taken for granted.
Dec 5, 2008 - 9:06 pm 65. Razie:I am an Iraninan with duel citizenship of both US and Iran and owning a business here,How ever I have to say that the Constitution of US is the best and first to NONE, to those who think the government can do a better job than a private sector, The Iranian government specially this current his majesty
president claimed to help the poor before he comes to power, since then not only they havenot been able to help them out,but also they have created more and more POOR,keep in mind that Iranian own the bigest commodity in the world called OIL , and yet the government can’t manage his own payrolls !!!
Dec 6, 2008 - 6:10 am 66. Razie:and on the subject of volunteerism, I believe that everyone as an individual should have it in his /her heart according to thier ability to give a helpy hand to those in needs , Americans have already been doing charities and helping to those in desperate need here at home and all of the world with thier genrous contributions and donations out of thier own pokect, Mr. Obama and his elites friend intentions will produce unintended false consequences by mandating thier own personal Ideas and imaginations …
Dec 6, 2008 - 6:39 am 67. marymcl:Robert Hurley – I have a news flash for you – the government of the United States is the government of ALL its citizens, not just the Christians (and BTW, whether or not I happen to be one is none of your business – or the government’s) Making pseudo-religious arguments in support of a secular power grab is the last resort of the craven.
I notice also that over the course of this thread your posturing has evolved from “Christian” to “Judeo-Christian” – what’s next – “People of the Book”?
Dec 6, 2008 - 7:29 am 68. wingnut:Can anybody tell me the difference between mandatory community service, endentured servitude, and slavery? Please do not say getting $4000 of free tuition is not slavery. Even the slaves were given free room, board, and health care for life.
Dec 6, 2008 - 11:08 am 69. susan:robert hurley, my country never fell for the obummer fraud, and we are not touched by your democratic made house-loan disaster.
As I wrote already several times, I voted the party that won by a landslide and currently hsa the highest approval rating EVER.
So I am currently partying, you cannot even understand the crap you are in, because of your manifest limited mental capabilities, and because for people below the level of poverty like yourself relying on government handouts, nothing will change that much.
you live a pathetic low life.
PS: obummer will last 8 years exactly like Carter. There will be a battle to see which of the 2 is the worst of them all. My money is on zerobama.
Dec 6, 2008 - 12:18 pm 70. marymcl:susan –
Save your money. Make no mistake, we are living Carter’s legacy right now. When I feel like tying myself in knots, I imagine Obama sending on Carter on “special missions” overseas, Teheran, even.
Can you imagine? And don’t anyone tell me it’s too weird to happen either. The worst of it is, Carter would go in a heartbeat.
Dec 6, 2008 - 1:26 pm 71. Matt:When does Mel Gibson get the chance to portray you in “Conspiracy Theory 2: The Right-wing Nutjob Annoys Us All?”
Dec 6, 2008 - 5:25 pm 72. marymcl:Are you talking to me Matt? If so, all I have to say is whenever he gets around to it, he’d better remember to give me pointed ears and cloven hooves or I’m going to be very disappointed
Dec 6, 2008 - 7:19 pm 73. peacock chaser:Isn’t “forced labor/service” called slavery? Kind of ironic isn’t it? Nobama trying to force slavery on us? Karin – you said this wouldn’t happen because of public outrage. I sure hope you are right! But I don’t think the “Big O” will let a little thing like public opinion or even the constitution get in his way. Especiall when he has the likes of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid in his corner! GOD SAVE THE USA
Dec 6, 2008 - 7:46 pm 74. James:The volunteer program under the current administration was called Americorps it
Dec 6, 2008 - 8:47 pm 75. Confused in Virginia:didn’t work out so well so now its just
the same program you ignored when a Republican
had it. And currently theres A thing called FAFSA for help paying for college. Except its
free. Maybe this program would help with students getting work experience before graduating highschool, to be able to get a better job.
What I find most outrageous about this subject is that American children will be forced into “volunteering” for public service for the poor & disadvantaged, so that the U.S. government can send billions of $$ to help other countries’ poor & disadvantaged. Am I the only one confused by this?
Dec 6, 2008 - 9:59 pm 76. hp:dear “fear Obama”,
no need to (change your name). his enslavement of children surely was not the primary reason for it. (was it?)
throwing us chum like rolling back the enslavement demand are directed straight at the human propensity for quickly forgetting and moving on if attention is diverted then focused elsewhere.
not gonna happen.
Dec 7, 2008 - 4:49 pm 77. hp:@Confused in Virginia
nope. not the only one. i’ve unloaded about it elsewhere.
makes as much sense as them proudly boasting the millions upon millions they quickly raised off the sweat of the hard working man and woman for the campaign alone.
and now their emails CONTINUE this moment to beg for more. what the fridge?!
having once been a diehard democrat, i was originally offended a few months back when opposing candidates’ supporters depicted them as always having their hands out.
turns out “wingnut” is dem speak for “truthsayer”.
ps that “hate” that we’re being accused of above (again)? CLASSIC craiglantan response when they get flustered because we’re right about something regarding their idol and they know it.
imagine it must have been defensive manuever, page one, in the shmear fighting playbook v.2008. apparently it’s supposed to go something like: they scream, “HATE SPEECH!”, and we instantly cringe and stop expressing our right.
Dec 7, 2008 - 5:30 pm 78. Steve P.:Look at the Jammies get so infuriated by being asked to volunteer! You all get so eager to squawk “Country First!” like a bunch of parrots, but when it comes time for actually putting country first, you’re the quickest to start frothing and screaming “The Constitution says I don’t have to do anything!” or “You communists can’t tell me what to do with my money! This is slavery!”. What a bunch of phony hypocrites. What’s the point of yelling “Country First” when you can’t even pony up to help your neighbors? What exactly do you think the “Country” is? A big plot of land speckled by a bunch of McDonalds and WalMarts? Or a community of joined individuals that succeeds and fails together? Loving this country is meaningless and empty if you’re content to let your neighbors drown simply because the Constitution says you aren’t obligated to throw them a life preserver.
Dec 8, 2008 - 1:50 pm 79. Thinking Person:Steve P….You missed the entire point of the article here it seems. We are “infuriated” by the possibility of not being asked but being forced to volunteer which by definition ceases to be volunteering. In the above posts I’m sure you saw evidence of a great amount of volunteering already done by proud GOP’ers. Let’s hear your story. Also, before you slam McDonald’s and Walmart and whomever else you deemed worthy to trash, you might just take into consideration the tax revenue those businesses bring in to your communities. I read an enlightening article the other day about a liberal community in CA that protested against a large Wal-Mart being built in their lovely hamlet and so Wal-Mart gave in and built down the road in the next town. Lo and behold, now this town is begging for one to be built there. Poor babies just jumped on the liberal bandwagon without seeing the forest for the trees. Which brings me back to your lame argument calling us all hypocrites for not wanting to be forced into volunteering. You are a typical liberalesque snob who lumps everyone together before actually delving deeper into the subject matter. We forgive you.
Dec 9, 2008 - 1:48 pm