76 Comments

1. vivo:

History has shown the Democrats have passed more laws that help the American public.

Republican actions have sunk the country into a recession ans constitutional aberrations. How many administrations had the chance to design a workable health plan????

It’s time to get rid of the selfishness and show love for your country. Not with flags and slogans .

With brains and cojones.

Sep 7, 2009 - 1:05 am 2. World Peace:

With all these contagious diseases like H1N1, high costs of health care, why would anybody oppose to Government’s health care. If there’s more available plan then there would be less infections and everybody will be safer. Airborn disease like H1N1 doesn’t know polical stance or views. High cost of health care are destroying american business and economy; it’s bad for everybody. I just don’t mind paying bit more on tax to support safer country which is booming in economy.

Sep 7, 2009 - 2:37 am 3. patmanshardt.blogspot.com:

I think this speech will make or break him. If Obama says something new, breaks new policy ground, or charts a new path on achieving health care reform, his legislative efforts will be revived. But if he simply trots out the same old tropes (e.g., if you like your health care, you can keep it, even with a public option; were going to cover 50 million new people and reduce costs without rationing, etc.) he’s finished.

The crux of the problem over at the White House appears to be that they think that the problems with health care reform thus far have been its packaging, not its substance. But as Charles Krauthamer said on Fox News, the problems is that “the dog won’t eat the dog food.”

In Sunday’s New York Times, Jackie Calms writes:

In 1994, Democrats’ dysfunction over fulfilling a new president’s campaign promise contributed to the party’s loss of its 40-year dominance of Congress. Now that memory is being revived, and it is the message the White House and Congressional leaders will press when lawmakers return this week, still divided and now spooked after the turbulent town-hall-style meetings, downbeat polls and distortions of August.Republicans early on united behind the lesson they took from the past struggle, that they stand to gain politically in next year’s elections if Democrats do nothing. But the Democrats’ version similarly resonates with all party factions, giving Mr. Obama perhaps his best leverage to unify them to do something. In now-familiar financial parlance, this one is “too big to fail.”

Adding to this chorus is Joe Klein where he writes in the August 31, 2009 issue of Time that:

“[H]onorable conservatives . . . have been overwhelmed by nihists and hypocrites more interested in destroying the opposition and gaining power than in the public weal. . . . The party’s putative intellectuals [ouch!] are prosaic tactitians who make precious few substantive arguments but oppose health care reform mostly because passage would help Barrack Obama’s political prospects.”

(To digress for a moment, this statement ignores that the public option, which conservatives has been resisting for over 50 years, violates deeply held conservative principles. This statement also ignores the fact that in an August 31, 2009 poll, 51 percent of voters say that they oppose Obama’s health care reforms. To paraphrase the February 7, 2009 cover of Newsweek, “We are all nihlists now.”)

But in the Weekly Standard, Matthew Continetti writes:

“For a while now, the message from Washington has been that we know what’s good for the public, whether the public likes it or not. One after another, both parties have attempted to foist a series of grand reforms on a skeptical populace–in areas ranging from Social Security and immigration to energy and health care. Politicians have made decisions affecting millions of lives without accountability and oversight. The upshot has been more government, more debt, and–coming soon to a 1040 form near you–more taxes. No wonder the public is anxious. . . . As for the elites, especially the liberal elite: They remain deaf, dumb, and blind.”

The White House is learning all the wrong lessons from Clinton’s effort to reform health care 15 years ago. Those at the White House think that they will be punished by the voters for failing to reform health care.

But one of the reason voters revolted against the Democrats in 1994 was not that they failed to deliver on a campaign promise, but that their proposals scared the hell out of the American people. It’s not that they failed, but they overstepped their mandate by trying to do far too much.The White House appears to think that the public generally wants its version of health care reform, it’s just that the voters don’t really know it yet. If Obama could just somehow find the magic words to turn things around.

In June, ABC News aired a one-hour special from the White House on health care reform. In July, Obama held a press conference on health care reform (where he made an unforced error by stepping into the Heny Louis Gates affair). Obama has also had numerous town halls, other speeches and conference calls on the subject. And now he’s going to salvage the debate with yet another speech before a joint session of Congress?In the end, the best advice for Obama (which I offer fully confident that he won’t take it), is to seek passage for a plan that the American people can accept (no cancellation of policies for sick people, no denials due to preexisting conditions, vouchers for the poor, etc.) and ditching those they can’t (public option, rationing, transfer of monies from Medicare), and declare at least a partial victory.

But because the White House thinks Obama can sell ice to eskimos and their refusal to see that their problems lie in the substance of health care reform, such moderation of the Left’s health care agenda is not likely.
In the end, Obama will reiterate the same tired arguments he’s been making for the past 3 months, soften or rename (but not eliminate) the need for a public option, make nice noises towards Republicans (although they already know that Obama thinks talk is cheap), and try to unify the Democrats saying that they’ll pay at the next election if they don’t do something now.

So get some beer, popcorn, nachos or other snacks to watch the President’s address on Wednesday. This is going to be classic. He’ll either save his bacon, or self-destruct. I’m betting on the latter.

Sep 7, 2009 - 2:59 am 4. Roper Doper Do:

Congressional Democrats don’t want to embarrass Obama..?

The same bunch that fought like mad dogs for the President’s right to have oral sex in the Oval Office with a woman almost the same age as his own daughter?

The same bunch that ravaged Sara Palin’s family like a school of blood thirsty sharks; her husband, her daughters, her marriage and her career..?

It is not possible to embarrass someone that would think nothing of stealing pennies off of their dead mother’s eyes or feed their miniature poodle a gourmet dinner right before going to some slimy clinic to have a late term abortion.

The Democrats in Congress now understand one thing better than they do anything else.

If they want to save their own asses they better not support any form or part of Obama’s healthcare reform crap, public option or otherwise.

This also goes for anything else Obama comes up with during the rest of his time in Washington, DC.

Why is this?

The Democrats in Congress also understand that Obama has royally pissed off more than enough voters needed to throw him, all of his Czars and them out in successive elections 2010 and 2012.

The real fun is about to begin.

Sep 7, 2009 - 3:47 am 5. carla:

VIVO:

Yeah, the beloved Dems have passed lots of good laws. Particularly during Reconstruction . It’s tough being an authority depending upon comic book sources and MTV. Ignorance and moral certainty is your forte. I doubt that you could recognize a turd if it fell on your head. Good job, comrade.

Sep 7, 2009 - 3:58 am 6. David Thomson:

“Snowe’s proposal is for a trigger — giving insurance companies the chance to prove they can reform their practices, with the public option as a fallback if they don’t.”

That is dumb talk. It is literally calling for the bankruptcy of all insurance companies. There is no financially realistic way to allow the uninsured to purchase coverage after they become severely ill. Neither the private sector–nor the public sector can handle this cost. The latter can only hide it for a relatively short time until the excrement eventually hits the fan. Do you really wish to improve health care in America? If so, this is what must be done:

1.) Tort reform: the lawyers must be brought under the control.
2.) One must endure high deductibles—of at least $2,000 annually. Eyeglasses, for instance, should never be covered. That is similar to the auto insurer paying for new tires on your car.
3.) Cross state insurance purchasing must become the norm. Legislators must cease adding mandates to all policies within their respective states.

Sep 7, 2009 - 4:04 am 7. robotech master:

Ppl keep talking about the “cost”. About how bad obama will lose if he does this.

ALL MEANINGLESS.

Even if the repubs get reelected in 2010 they won’t be over turning anything that obama passed. So while obama may trade 5-8 senate seats and 30 house seats the hes still ahead of the game alot.

Even in 2012 if he were to lose and congress where to go full repub with have filibuster proofs in both senate and house… you really think they would over turn anything obama has passed FAT CHANCE.

More so in the fact that if obama can get his “run the private sector out of health care” bill passed… that would be 3 years of hospitals, insurance companies, doctors and a host of other companies and ppl being run out of business or losing ownership of assets.

Would the repubs man up and revoke the obama laws and watch the health care system implode for the next 10 years trying to fix all the problems obama caused… or will they take the easy way out and just stay on the sinking ship and pass the buck down the road….

The bottom line is anything obama passes no matter how bad will not be revoked by the repubs (at least not in 2010). So where is the risk factor for obama…. he has goals and he either passes health care before 2010 or not at all… and he intends to pass heath care in some form no matter what so guess what, he’s going to do everything he can to get it passed.

Sep 7, 2009 - 4:07 am 8. Mark Epstein:

1 vivo: “History has shown the Democrats have passed more laws that help the American public.”

How about a few specifics? What have the Democrats passed that has “helped” America? FDR’s New Deals didn’t; World War II pulled America out of the Depression abyss. Social Security is bankrupt and does not have the necessary funding for Baby Boomers (and never will absent massive tax increases). Welfare had to be reformed because radicals high-jacked it for Communist political purposes, and the program enslaved generations of low-income Americans. Clinton’s law-enforcement approach to terrorism begot 9/11. California Democrats recently cut traditional education (again) in favor of adding classes that indoctrinate elementary school-age children in the Gay lifestyle, at the same time California is bankrupt. I think what you are actually stating is this: “Democrats pass feel-good legislation that insulates me from doing anything but pay taxes, at the same time it assuages any sense of guilt I have for not personally doing something.” Sound about right?

Mark

Sep 7, 2009 - 4:40 am 9. Lazarus:

Vivo, you’re always good for a laugh.

Sep 7, 2009 - 4:44 am 10. George S>:

this administration has never looked at working inside the constitution of the USA. this is plain mob rule. pushing a marxist agenda. the Van Jones issue is a prime example. he was just too open about his racist ways and communist dogma for the stupid public so he was thrown under the bus.

…but Obama and his wife are the SAME. They knew Jones history …that is why they picked him.

WAKE UP and stop making excuses for obama and company. people keep saying it doesn’t make sense what he is doing. IT DOES IF YOU UNDERSTAND HIS END GAME. HE IS DOING WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD. HE IS A MARXIST.

Sep 7, 2009 - 5:25 am 11. LeighB:

Obama’s speech will be like all the rest–too long, lacking in specifics, and too much about him. While he may try to pull off a “what I learned on my vacation was how to fix health care”, it’s too little too late. For all the talk of his brilliance–rhetorical and political–he is often slow to respond and never gets personally involved in any issue. I predict another yawner, but you’ll have to seek out a non-MSM outlet to get views other than “he walked on water again tonight!”.

Sep 7, 2009 - 5:55 am 12. myna:

Don’t be a mindless robot and a moron. Read. Government especially the democrats has done more harm than anything else combine. Look at southside of Chicago their democratic leaders living in gated community while poor people live in a squalors and crime.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:01 am 13. steve:

I DON’T WANT ANY BILL PASSED!

These lawless tyrants running our country along with their leader know absolutely nothing about the free market system or healthcare. They can’t even run the Post Office. Only a moron would let them meddle with our healthcare let alone run it.

The message to this racist Marxist clown and his henchmen must be clear.

NO BILL! NOTHING!

If we let them BS us about some compromise it will only give them more cover for RINO’s and Blue Dogs to defect and sign on.

They say their won’t be any government option now or later but that also will be a big lie.

Losing is not an option. Our liberty is at stake. If they pass this illegal bill our only shield is enforcing the Constitution on these criminals.

Even if passed it should not be enforced. Hopefully some states will cite ther rights under the Constitution and opt out. Let’s hope it doesn’t get to that point.

That is why we must be clear NO BILL!

Only tort reform and opening up the free market system through the private sector is acceptable. I guarantee you these tyrants won’t allow that to happen.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:11 am 14. Class Clown:

Why, oh why, when Leftists ask for “reform”, the only answer is “national program”?

Who are all these people who are dying for lack of healthcare anyway? Can’t we have decentralized state programs? Free-market reforms? Why is the only acceptable answer to increase the power of the national government?

Of course, when you shift the paradigm, and see that what the Left actually wants is not healthcare, but rather European-style statism (with themselves as the permanent ruling-class), those questions kind of answer themselves, don’t they?

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:11 am 15. George S.:

this is an excellent artical, the below link highlights the mindset of the troll/leftist/commie …and explains why the trolls will not even finish reading the artical in the link

http://frontpagemagazine.com/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=36189

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:12 am 16. patmanshardt.blogspot.com:

Mark:

I’d be surprised to learn that vivo pays taxes. Likely, he gets an earned income credit, a tax “refund” for people who don’t pay taxes.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:12 am 17. mishu:

Does vivo work for Soros or something? He’s always right there, near the top with a countervailing comment.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:14 am 18. myna:

Don’t be a mindless moron. Read. Government especially the democrats has done more harm than good. Just look at the southside of Chicago, their democratic leaders live in gated community while their poor constituents live in squalor and crime. The democrats have chained these people in poverty for their own selfish interest.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:20 am 19. homero:

http://www.pbase.com/opinion/maniacal

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:44 am 20. pedro 57:

So what is it Mr. Baehr can’t you make your point without sounding like Tom Brokaw. Grow some, maybe a little viagra will help.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:49 am 21. Aureliano:

History has shown the Democrats have passed more laws that help the American public.

According to Howard Zinn, Howard Dean, Bozo the Clown, and Community College professors.

Republican actions have sunk the country into a recession ans constitutional aberrations.

According the the economists and constitutional scholars at the Daily Kos.

How many administrations had the chance to design a workable health plan????

Technically, every single administration since the founding of the Republic.

It’s time to get rid of the selfishness …

… by getting others to pay for your healthcare.

… and show love for your country.

By voting for an president who has never had anything good to say about the country he is supposed to be leading.

Not with flags …

… but with pre-printed signs that say “Yes We Can!”

… and slogans.

Like “Hope and Change”

With brains …

Like the professors who watch Keith Olbermann and Katie Couric ….

… and cojones.

Actually, 52% of women support Obama, but only 46% of men.

Generally, yours is the cajones-free party and president — do you think it’s coincidence that two out of three network news anchors are now women? To what demographic do you think they’re appealing?

You meant “… and ovaries.”

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:50 am 22. Sebastian Shaw:

President Obama’s Congressional speech about his dream & our nightmare for a Government fiat Health-Care “reform” is already a loser given he is making a speech to Congress in the first place; Obama will not be anymore specific than he has already been 111 speeches & town halls ago. The problem is the substance with the flawed legislation being a government takeover of another private sector in health care. The people have made their voices heard to the arrogant elites, yet they pretend not to listen to their dismay. The trigger will only come into effect for the rejected public option & other problems with the health care government takeover.

President Obama’s speech to Congress will fail given he is overexposed & coming at the flawed legislation from weakness. I do not expect his ratings to be good either given Obama’s overexposure.

Sep 7, 2009 - 6:53 am 23. RE:

I’ll never understand vivo’s affinity for serfdom. Perhaps it’s attributable to a some sort dependency gene that some are afflicted with. Or a greed or laziness gene that compels them to demand that someone else carry their weight for them. It’s hard to say what causes this dysfunction in such people. But what is especially despicable about it is their desire to impose their demands upon other people, to take away their freedom of choice, and to diminish their ability to live their live as they see fit.

That strikes me as very un-American at its core – because it is. Name calling and hissy fits can’t change that.

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:10 am 24. Pelaut:

6 Thompson:
Add: repeal all legislative tinkering with the sciences of diagnosing, treating and preventing disease.
Add: privatize the FDA and make its recommendations unenforceable
Add: make patients pay institutions and professionals in their own cash, even if proceeds of insurances.

Obamacare and everything else will go into law with the new “Some Assembly Required” process. Under SAR ‘triggers’ and pieces of apparently unrelated legislation are passed in different acts governing different Administration Departments who make complementary Regulations to complete each component’s function. Then law enforcement assembles all the pieces as needed to create the net effect of whatever they want to pistol whip us with. Exempli gratia:

The CER (Cost Effectiveness Review board) went into the Obama EcoSquirt bill. The CER law takes the panel out of purview of just about anybody, and it makes the policies the panel develops applicable to just about all gummint programs.

Yes, ‘death panels’ do exist, Virginia. Already. In the CER.
Death to “triggers”.

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:11 am 25. Morry Rotenberg:

Don’t forget friends, that after health care “reform” and cap and tax will come educational reform. You didn’t know that our health care system was broken, that our planet is frying, and that we need to spend even more money to keep the teachers’ unions happy. Instead of growing the economy and encouraging private investment to create long term jobs our government will raise taxes, grow the deficit, tell you when you need to see a doctor, tilt at windmills, discourage development of real energy resources, and continue our dependence on the oil sheiks. Oh, and lest I forget we will prosecute our spies for keeping us safe, take away the secret ballot so we can all be unionized against our will, and squelch free speech on our public airways (where’s the outrage from the ACLU which hated the Patriot Act?).
I hope all of you useful idiots who voted for hope and change are pleased with what we have so far?

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:14 am 26. pmk:

Why is every speech given to a live audience? How about speaking from the Oval Office? Give us your message without the predictable applause lines and standing ovations and twenty minutes of handshakes all around. They’re BORING! (Can’t presidents read more than two sentences without stopping for applause?)
I’ll read your speech after it’s given, since I have to be elsewhere on Wednesday, fortunately.

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:34 am 27. Mongoose:

Vivo: Why would should we take the word of someone as parasitic and unaccomplished as you are about what constitutes “good laws”. There is scarcely a political, social or economic evil in this nation that cannot be traced back to Democrat “Laws” and policies. Very few have “helped American”; the vast majority of them have hurt them, and deeply so too. You would understand this if you were settled, responsible and productive adult.

As usual, you are 1) incapable of anything but sloganeering and spewing Lefty cany, and 2) have not the faintest idea of what you are talking about.

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:43 am 28. Mark Epstein:

While skimming the William Buckley archives at NRO last night, I ran across a couple of his columns from January 2008. One reflected his amusement at then Senators Clinton and Obama blaming each other for the stock market crash. Another column asked what we’ve noted and are still wondering: “Everybody knows Obama has gone further than merely to denounce oil and drug profits. What is it, concretely, that he wants?”

He concluded the late January column (with the reference to the stock market) this way: “All told, it seems a pretty conventional modern contest for power between candidates who wish to exceed each other in promises made to the voters. “Health care should be universal,” said Hillary. Obama might have answered, “Success in the stock market should be universal.” But there isn’t anything a president can do to secure that, so if Obama wins, he’ll have to settle for providing health care for Dow Jones.”

Using the Dow Jones bit as a springboard, it was obvious a rather cheeky posting was in the offing. Although it would have been easy to play the prescience card, instead we ask — “Can we compromise on health care for Down Jones?”

It’s not too late, you know.

Mark

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:50 am 29. Cybergeezer:

So; Let’s see how Obama/Emanuel/Congressional Democrats can spin this into an ECONOMIC CRISIS and get the media to propagate this B.S.

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:53 am 30. Mark Epstein:

And still another interesting quote….

The progressive virus is a religious virus. Political radicalism is an expression of the inability of human beings to live without meaning; it is the replacement of the hope for a divine redemption in a redemption by political activists, which inevitably leads to a totalitarian state.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:00 am 31. Войска ПВО:

Advice to you all: vivo is an idiot. He’s a post-pubescent cretin living in his mother’s basement, popping his zits, slathering on Clearasil, and spending every waking hour inventing inanities such as the post above to hijack a thread.

Ignore him, give him no heed, and he wanders back into that dank cellar wherein he dwells, surfs the net looking for frog art, and, when bored, amuses himself with the lingerie section of the Sears and Roebuck catalog.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:20 am 32. Войска ПВО:

..oh, and that’s pretty much my recommendation for the upcoming speech from our Pantload-in-Chief to the joint session of congress this Wednesday..

..unless Stephen Green’s gonna be drunken-blogging it.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:23 am 33. DoctorT:

Thank god for places like pajamasmedia.com, Marketwatch, and FoxNews. I can’t believe the misrepresentations of this administration and the democratic congressional majority regarding health care. Comments like those of vivo above only go to reinforce the concept that we are not talking about simple reforms but rather an attempt by the left to truly takeover this country and turn it into some fascist or communistic country where no one has rights, unemployment remains high for forever, and this shining society of America will become a thing of the past.

Time to right a few wrongs ( and this is by no means everything). If this version of health care reform passes then these things will likely be lost.

1. Health care in the United States truly is one of the best in the world. (and the frequently touted WHO rankings are rubbish as their goal is equal health care quality and access for everyone, not quality: one can have no health care in the country for anyone and meet that criteria to become number 1)

2. Americans expect timely service, and no country in the world accomplishes that better than the United States. This by the way is a byproduct of a competitive free market economy, which is also under attack.

3. This so called 46 or 47 million Americans without healthcare insurance includes many Americans that already have healthcare or are already elligible under other govt. programs, are illegal immigrants, or have access and the ability to pay for their own insurance but simply choose not to. The real uninsured or uninsurable number is much lower, around 11 million.

4. There are the equivalent elements of “Death Panels” in the bill even if they aren’t called that by name. You can count on them being called that by the American people if they end up be implemented.

5. There is language in the Bill that forces people out of their current health care plans and will result in the destruction of many insurance companies (probably hurting the better more comprehensive insurance plans more than the currently complained about insurance companies). Besides which if the govt. plan taxes everyone to pay for the plan and the insurance companies only collect from their insured members the price cannot be competitive.

6. This government has repeatedly stated that it is interested in income redistribution and has already tried to divide the physician population by promising higher incomes for primary care physicians and much lower incomes for specialists. This will drive many physicians into early retirement creating many shortages among specialists. My own income (radiologist) has already decreased by 30-40 percent over the last decade thanks to changes in medicare reimbursement and changes in private insurance reimbursement to radiologists that occured after the last healthcare reform when the government had private insurers manage the Medicare accounts. The additional promised drop of 30 percent planned by this administration will change what has become a marginal business into one that is no longer feasible. Besides the restraint of trade and potential government monopoly issues as well as the unconstitutional nature of these policies, the failure to address medical malpractice will make continued practice impossible.

7. This administrations attempts to drum up some support from primary care physicians by promising to sweeten their pot is insanely short-sighted. Once the government gets control, the cuts will follow across the board. It won’t be long before we make an income as low as or lower than any laborer in this country.

8. Physicians really do believe in the philosophies of “the patient and their care comes first”, “treat patients like people, or as you would treat your own family”, and that “the wishes of the family should be honored when the patient can no longer make decisions for themselves unless they had already been expressed by the patient through a living will”. The idea that the government should have the right to interfere with that relationship truly is alien to doctors and their patients. The failure of this administration to deal with healthcare tort reform will create constant and insolvable conflicts between these forces. Would the doctor truly stop providing care when the govt. refuses to pay and the patient or family know that they want the care that was supposed to be provided.

9. Tort reform is absolutely necessary and would have far more impact on decreasing over-utilization of resources and the cost of health care than any other change that can be made, even more than insurance reform.

10. The government is not as efficient as any private insurance service. The nationalization of health care will increase the overall cost of health care, not decrease it(unless very severe, deep cuts in the provision of health care, in short rationing, occurs).

11. The concept of a trigger is at best naive, but is, in my opinion, an attempt to find a back door way of taking over health care and will without question be used. It is very clear that the current liberal majority will do anything to pass health care reform, and to believe that a trigger option in the bill would stop them from using it is ludicrous.

Unless this Congress drops this Bill and goes back to the drawing board, I fear for the healthcare of all.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:36 am 34. gracie:

there is too much in the “health plan” that does NOTNOTNOT have to do with “health”…i.e, Wrangle’s little ditty about IRS and your taxes, while he is the worst of offenders, he wants you to pay double fines and go to jail for innocent mistakes..I don’t think this has anything to do with “health care”..so what else is stuffed in this bill…

The health plan needs to be taken apart and rewritten, and looked at by Americans…and CHarlie and Barney etcetcetc need to go directly to jail…if for nothing else than stupidity and trying to hurt the American public.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:43 am 35. Tom Perkins:

@ Vivo, The Democrats haven’t had a good idea since the 1830’s–that’s when they last endorsed the Founder’s ideal of ending slavery peacefully–then they gave up on that idea. They last had a new idea in the 1930’s, and it wasn’t a good idea.

The Democrat’s abandonment of government supported manumission brought us the Civil War.

The Democrat’s steadfast opposition to Reconstruction brought us Jim Crow and the Ku Klux Klan, their buying into yet a another special interest group when they wore that one out brought us unconstitutional and evil excrescences as racial quotas instead of the actual civil rights bills which Republicans authored. Democrat Woodrow Wilson was the most racist man ever to sit in the White House, to go by his policies, and his entry into WWI both birthed both a totalitarian police state and a command economy here, and his diplomatic failures set the stage for WII and all that entailed. FDR had four big calls to make, and he only got the one’s about Germany and Japan right. Kennedy has nothing to recommend him except his pathologically romantic death, Castro is his most lasting gift to us, of more lasting import even than the moon landing. LBJ’s inability to stick to a politically winning strategy set the stage for the fall of Saigon–given us by Democrats who refused to aid the South Vietnamese even with money, let alone arms–after the war was won on the field. Carter simply can’t be discussed without engendering giggles–sweaters, malaise, killer rabbits, and the ineffectual response to Iranian islamists which inspired AlQaeda…

Clinton’s sole saving grace is that he went to the center (and this country’s center is center right compared to the rest of the world, and far right on many questions) when his attempt at healthcare fascism failed.

I have no reason to think Obama has either the wit or prudence to do the same.

To the tune of about 80% or more, all this nation’s miseries are the result of the success of the Democratic Party.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:59 am 36. Meryl:

32. Войска ПВО:
“..oh, and that’s pretty much my recommendation for the upcoming speech from our Pantload-in-Chief to the joint session of congress this Wednesday..

“..unless Stephen Green’s gonna be drunken-blogging it.”

Yeah, I have to clean the lint out of the dryer that night. It would be great if Stephen Green does drunk-blog it.

I don’t drink myself, but probably would consider it if I could be sure I would get Stephen Green’s reasoning and commenting results. I truly appreciate anyone who makes it unnecessary for me to have to pay attention to anything obama says “live”.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:04 am 37. Ruebacca:

How can you have lived in the USA for the last 30 years and not have a profound respect for market forces? The Democrats always want to go against the laws of nature and human self interest. They think they are writing a computer program disconnected from physical reality.

A sustainable program will put a premium on self reliance and market forces. But democratic voters are dependent personalities. We see the democratic vision of America in Oakland, Detroit and New Orleans. People unable to function in a modern world and bitter at those who can.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:08 am 38. Steve:

If Democrats continue to push for a public option maybe opponents can run on a promise to reverse the bill and also to cancel what remains of the stimulus package.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:32 am 39. Poor Citizen:

Red state Democrats and most Republicans should be holding their ground on this. People want change and they want health care reform. But they also want it done correctly, and with the best intentions. We cannot afford to do nothing, but we also cannot afford to create some new governmental monstrassiteee that becomes an albatross. Lets hope each side does stand their ground, that way, the compromise just might … might benefit all of us. However, everyone being happy about it, will never happen.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:39 am 40. arthur:

with millions of people with no health care insurance, and millions more with insurance still going bankrupt from the cost of medical bills, and rising cost and growing demand, the current system is not working, and we need change. this isn’t democrat v republican, this is reality.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:58 am 41. alex:

1) End the “war” on drugs. It has never come close to working, history shows it will never work ( unless we copy Chinese policy of execution without recourse), and we do not have the political will to do that. This takes up massive amount of Law enforcement money time and effort. It is a failure, admit it, legalize personal use, increase penalties for larger infractions.

2) preventive health care….shocking approach, yes, and incredibly easy to implement.

3) set aside egos and pride and just do what is best, doesn’t matter who wrote or supports it, if its a good idea implement it. There are some good health care programs, borrow what is best from each and build a composite of what is out there working right now.

Sep 7, 2009 - 10:00 am 42. Mary Jo:

Olby & Roby? LOL!

Sep 7, 2009 - 10:21 am 43. JC78:

I work for a very large health care agency and watch – every day – the propaganda and MIS-INFORMATION they feed to their employees, customers and the general public about health care reform. They form ‘teams’ and use their resources to generate rumors and downright lies.

Why would this be, do you think? Couldn’t be that they are trying to protect their profits on behalf of the corrupt and grossly mis-managed health insurers that they represent? The billing errors that these health insurance companies make on a daily basis are hidden and crippling to the people they insure. One example: A large national health carrrier re-sets deductible limits to $0 during the plan year so that people never reach their deductible. Think about that – your deductible is $2000 and you reach it, but then your health provider re-sets you back to $0. You have to fight with your insurance company to get it straightened out – you have to continue paying for medical care in full – even though you reached your deductible – THEN you have to try and get all the billing done right and get your money back. THINK ABOUT THAT!! If anyone from CNN wants to do real reseach into this – let me know!! I have more examples of billing errors.

Forbid that citizens should DEMAND a public option to give these corrupt insurers competition to force them to treat the consumers honestly and fairly!!

But the ‘profiteers’ of this country make it so, so easy for all the little sheep running around to spread the rumors and the lies – even if the lies take money out of their own pockets and keep it in the pockets of the health care agencies and the profiteers.

The agency I work for has / had ties to AIG. Same mentality as AIS. While the managers / partners form teams to propogate for Town Hall Meetings, they continue to hold manager / director / partner meetings at local casinos, so that they can play $500/hand poker games each evening.

Look a little deeper at the people doing the shouting. Ask if they have health insurance. Ask where they work. They’ll probably lie. But if they don’t, their motives are one or both of two things:

1. They have health insurance and don’t care about anyone who doesn’t.
2. They have a stake in company profits and want to prevent changes in our current health care system for their own profit-sake.

Grow up America. We need health care reform.

Sep 7, 2009 - 10:37 am 44. arhooley:

2. World Peace:

My guess is that you are a young Chinese person studying in America. Whoever you are, you can learn a lot by reading Ronald Reagan’s views on the assumption of private industry, family, church, and other non-government institutions by the government. Google up his speeches. Your eyes will be opened.

Sep 7, 2009 - 11:24 am 45. Steve DeMarcus:

So now I am supposed to feel guilty about being upset that some citizens want the power of government to take part of my earnings and give them first to the government who will in turn pay for things other people can nor or worse will not voluntarily pay for them selves. Sorry but I don’t like it I don’t like it at all.

If someone came to my door and said hey I need to go see a doctor and I would like for you to help me out with it. I say alright and how much does this cost and they say well I do not know and I say well sorry but maybe you need to sell something like that cell phone or stop your cable TV service and get a second job and by the way get out of here or one of two things will happen I will inform the police or I will forcefully remove you from this property.

I refuse to feel guilty because you want me to pay for your problems whether self inflicted or by bad circumstances, try going to private charities first and then a church might even offer help but leave me and my family out of your personal problems.

Sep 7, 2009 - 11:26 am 46. M. Report:

Perhaps Job2, lowering the cost of Health Care,
should be part of Job1, improving the Economy;
Offer prizes to new businesses which deliver
services at reduced cost.
Ah, my bad; Any such would be impractical/illegal
due to the web of bureaucratic regulation which
has our creative people tied down like Gulliver
in the Land of the Lilliputians.
Also, only a monolithic federal level plan can
be considered; everything else is Right Out. (

Sep 7, 2009 - 12:17 pm 47. lzendel:

There is a huge problem that everyone seems to ignore. This health care “reform” is part of a trillion dollar a year deficit for each of the next 10 years. That means basically that China and Saudi Arabia need to buy $10 trillion dollars of new debt while willing to roll over any maturing debt. AND IF THEY DON’T WANT TO then what? will they demand 10-15-20% interest.
One alternative is 40-80% tax rates on just about everyone. Another alternative is printing 10 trillion phony paper dollars- just like Zimbabwe. Either way kiss the America you knew goodbye

Sep 7, 2009 - 12:42 pm 48. Gina:

(26. pmk: Why is every speech given to a live audience? How about speaking from the Oval Office?)

Because this president is very arrogant and he needs CONSTANT stroking and applause to feed his massive ego. A major weakness, IMO.

Sep 7, 2009 - 12:44 pm 49. goy:

@1. vivo: – History has shown …
History shows that you haven’t the slightest clue what history shows.

As for BHO’s speech, history shows that it won’t very likely contain the necessary ingredients required to save his administration. To do that, he’d need to apologize to the American People for attacking them as a ‘mob’ and telling them not to do “too much talking”. He’d need to recognize that his corporatist/socialist policies are not in keeping with the Republican form of Government guaranteed by the Constitution he swore on multiple occasions to uphold and defend. He’d need to openly acknowledge that the actions he’s pursued are not welcome in our Republic. He’d need to admit that he grossly overestimated his ‘mandate’ when he was elected by the fawning media and only 30% of the voting public.

History shows that this speech won’t contain any of those things. Rather, it will most likely just be more hard evidence that BHO’s narcissism and messianic, ideological blindness leads him to believe that if only he spews enough lofty-sounding, neuro-linguistically programmed, telepromptered oratory he’ll hypnotize sufficient numbers of Americans into supporting him. Again. This is what works for him. This is what got him his endless, unremarkable, lifetime career in politics. This is what got him elected as the most inexperienced President in our nation’s history. This is literally the only thing he knows how to do.

The difference today is that too many Americans – especially those who worked so hard to get him elected – have now seen beyond the teleprompter. Beyond that ever-present, electronic crutch, they’ve gotten more than just a glimpse of the whiny, angry, racist, thin-skinned, ineffectual, bumbling, uncompromising, imperious, America-bashing bully who’s driving their country off a cliff.

BHO, for his part, has demonstrated that he’s incapable of doing the same. He is incapable of looking past the teleprompter, past his own canned, socially suicidal rhetoric, to see the People who elected him and understand the nature of the Republic to which they have pledged allegiance and the rules laid down by the Constitution so many of us have sworn to protect from enemies both foreign and, especially, domestic. He’s mistaken the glare of a People betrayed by their government for useful idiots he thinks he can turn against a political party by blaming Republicans, blaming Bush, blaming Cheney, blaming capitalism, blaming the CIA, blaming conservatives, blaming everyone but himself for the abject ineptitude he’s exhibited as president to date.

Other issues will come along, but health care is the hill the Democrats have chosen to die on because it provides the fulcrum necessary to impose collectivist, socialist control over virtually every other aspect of Americans’ lives.

If we’re smart, this manufactured “crisis” will reveal the real crisis presently faced by our Republic. It’ll show how desperately we need to get to work. We need to start getting government completely out of the health care entitlement business. They’ve already bankrupted Medicare and even outright extortion and theft hasn’t made it solvent. Socialized medicine will only be more of the same on a scale several orders of magnitude more costly, more corrupt, more financially and morally bankrupt and more destructive of the freedoms our Republic was designed to guarantee. And to that end I recommend turning to ANY channel other than one broadcasting BHO’s propaganda.

Or better yet, read a book.

Sep 7, 2009 - 1:16 pm 50. Meryl:

45. Steve Demarcus “So now I am supposed to feel guilty about being upset that some citizens want the power of government to take part of my earnings and give them first to the government who will in turn pay for things other people can nor or worse will not voluntarily pay for them selves. Sorry but I don’t like it I don’t like it at all.

“If someone came to my door and said hey I need to go see a doctor and I would like for you to help me out with it. I say alright and how much does this cost and they say well I do not know and I say well sorry but maybe you need to sell something like that cell phone or stop your cable TV service and get a second job and by the way get out of here or one of two things will happen I will inform the police or I will forcefully remove you from this property.

“I refuse to feel guilty because you want me to pay for your problems whether self inflicted or by bad circumstances, try going to private charities first and then a church might even offer help but leave me and my family out of your personal problems.”

Exactly.

For several years, I worked as Director for a nonprofit dedicated to assisting the elderly in our community to stay in their homes, via volunteer assistance with household trasks, transportation, etc. I very nearly didn’t take the job to begin with because I knew it was funded by State Taxes, which just turned my stomach. But because it was a good fit otherwise, I took it. I learned much by firsthand observation.

Northwest Minnesota has been inundated with Bosnian immigrants (with the help of government money and do-gooder/don’t-worry-we’ll-help-you mentalities of many community/religious organizations). Those of you who live on the hair trigger, get ready. You will have opportunity to accuse me of racism here in a minute.

These folks got off the planes from eastern Europe and were settled in dozens of small towns and were handed three things when they got off the plane: 1) a list of phone numbers where they could all manner of free assistance, including food stamps, WIC, cash assistance, groceries and fuel oil; 2) a large cash stipend to “get them started”; and, 3)transportation to the apartment or house where their first months of expenses were already paid. Leaving out about 20 lines of other padding info, here’s the bottom line:

When they discovered the wonders of private telephone service, they were thrilled to death! This meant they could call the homefolks in Bosnia and talk every day!! Such a deal!

But then something really, really bad happened.

They didn’t pay their phone bills (even after it was explained to them they should pay their phone bills).

So after 1 month….2 months, finally a disconnection notice arrives in their mail.

I will never forget the day one of our resident Bosnian projects came in to my office (because he generally knew we were there to “help people”…didn’t speak hardly any English). He waved a $750.00 phone in my face and said, “You pay!” I said, “No, we don’t pay those.” Voice rising, “YOU PAY!!” Well? What was he to think??

We also had young Bosnian parents (who didn’t bother to get jobs. Why should they?) and they would come in demanding diapers and groceries.

So, yes indeed, Steve. If I knock on your door and tell you that I don’t have enough cash for my doctor visit, you are supposed to give it to me. And, if you wouldn’t mind, the price for fuel oil is up here in Minnesota as we go into the heating season. So if I order 250 gallons, it’s going to cost about $300 more than that same delivery cost last year. So I’d appreciate it if you could add another $300 to the doctor visit cost. Okey-dokey?

Nah….I’m just kidding, Steve. I’ve already reviewed our family budget and cut expenses for the next 6 months to accommodate the costs of heating fuel. Of course the rise in heating costs LAST year is the reason we haven’t seen our adult children (in Colorado and Oregon) for 2 full years now.

We’ve paid off significant personal debt (mostly medical expenses) over the last 18 months, and are looking forward to some traveling next. It will be especially delicious because we earned it and will pay cash for it.

Sep 7, 2009 - 1:21 pm 51. Tom Perkins:

@ 43. JC78: & 40. arthur:

I believe you are both lying or are delusional.

The health care reform we need is to get the government out of the health care business. It should be admitted to everyone under 32 that they will never see a penny of their Medicare and Socialist Insecurity taxes, and the payments for everyone from 32 to 57 or so should be pro-rated from zilch to the current planned payments. There should be no new enrollees in any way under the age of 32. When the last person who’s now 32 dies, there should never be another check cut for these programs.

They were a bad idea when proposed, we know we can’t pay for them now, and we certainly can’t pay for their expansion. There are garranteed to be politically motivated cost saving “death panels” if your beloved public option/single payer health care reforms pass, and they won’t be ones you can sue of they screw up, because they’ll be the government or the government’s agent.

Grow up and quit lying to us.

Sep 7, 2009 - 1:23 pm 52. patmanshardt.blogspot.com:

#35 Tom:

Vivio going to the dictionary to look up “manumission.”

Sep 7, 2009 - 1:30 pm 53. Kriska:

“I work for a very large health care agency and watch – every day – the propaganda and MIS-INFORMATION they feed to their employees, customers and the general public about health care reform. They form ‘teams’ and use their resources to generate rumors and downright lies.”

Do you by chance work for Aetna? They raised my rates and deny all claims…very scary!!

Sep 7, 2009 - 2:19 pm 54. genghis:

Wonderful, another speech. When in doubt, give a speech. Pity, fewer and fewer people are listening. You know, kiar, kiar, pants on fire. Every day is another catastrophe in the making. Chicken little 24/7. Chickens coming home to roost.

Sep 7, 2009 - 2:29 pm 55. Silence Do Good:

(26. pmk: Why is every speech given to a live audience? How about speaking from the Oval Office?)

In addition to Gina’s cogent answer, here’s another theory.

Barry sitting in the Oval Office would NOT have the benefit of his “blankie.” (teleprompter) Can you imagine him turning his head side-to-side while sitting in a chair all by himself.

He needs the teleprompter. God forbid the day when he must look down at a script rather than his “blankie.”

As far as the health care debate outcome….no trust = no bill.

Sep 7, 2009 - 2:44 pm 56. cedarhill:

Come folks, VIVO is a Troll. Don’t waste your typing.

Sep 7, 2009 - 4:07 pm 57. Christopher:

President Obama wants to push the public option now, while he has a bulletproof majority in both houses of congress. He knows that after the 2010 elections, he will not have a rubber stamp. Once socialized medicine is out there, it will be almost impossible to reverse these actions. I am all for reforming the health care system, but this is not reform, it is socialized medicine. If you do not believe this, then you are foolish. As the great Bruce Springsteen once said, “Blind faith in your leaders, or in anything, will get you killed.”

Sep 7, 2009 - 5:16 pm 58. Samizdat:

Cedarhill at 56,

Let me echo your thoughts:

Don’t get down in the mud with the troll/pigs, you get dirty and the troll/pigs like it.

Sep 7, 2009 - 5:49 pm 59. Sebastian Shaw:

President Obama is cultivating a Cult of Personality:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ5SVDYBNrY

Beyond the distorted Barack Obama mirror messiah image is nothing, but a Marxist thug, a Shadow King. Shine the light on the shadows & watch the vapid malignant narcissist cower from his own shadow.

Sep 7, 2009 - 5:55 pm 60. Metz:

@51 Tom

I completely agree with you. We need to find ways to eliminate the presence of government, not continue to expand it. All of these entitlement programs are unsustainable in the long run.

I have no problem helping those in need, but when you make “need” a way of life, you’ve gone to far. At some point in time, you have to take responsibility for yourself.

Sep 7, 2009 - 7:19 pm 61. GCA:

Tort reform is not the answer, at least not nationally. Medical malpractice cases are brought under state law. I am opposed on philosophical grounds to further intrusion by the feds into state governance. Tort reform may well be appropriate in a number of states. If so, it should be enacted at the state level. However, Tort reform will do little to solve the problem of high medical care costs.

California “reformed” its medical malpractice laws in the 1970’s with MICRA. Under MICRA, general damages (non-economic damages such as pain and suffering) against medical care providers, including doctors and hospitals, have been capped at $250,000 for more than 30 years. Economic damages, including attorneys fees in contingent fee cases, are payable over the expected life of the person who gets a judgment. Thus, if a 2 year old gets a $1 million judgment for malpractice that, say, caused blindness for life, the judgment is payable over the next 70 some-odd years without interest or consideration for inflation or of the difference between the present value of $1 million and $1 million paid over 70+ years, which amounts to about $14,000 per year. Furthermore, most attorneys in California charge 1/3 to 40% of recovery in contingent cases other than med mal cases. Attorneys fees in med mal cases are capped at 40% of the first $50,000, 1/3 of the next $50,000, 25% of the next $500,000 and 15% of anything over $600,000. Oh, and another thing – medical care providers (and only medical care providers) are entitled to deduct collateral source payments (anything paid by someone other than the person who suffered the medical malpractice, e.g. payments by insurers) from consideration when the damage award is calculated. California has also eliminated joint and several liability – thus if a doctor, who generally has $1-2 million in insurance coverage, is found to be 85% at fault and a hospital, with $5 million in coverage, is found 15% at fault in a $5 million judgment, the hospital only has to pay $750,000 – no more “deep pockets”.

The simple truth is that damages resulting from medical malpractice are costly. Med mal plaintiffs are not coming close to being “made whole” under current California law. Very few attorneys will take med mal cases.

So, I ask you, do you really think things are any better in California than the rest of the country when it comes to the high cost of medical care? If you do, I have an orange bridge (that took in $85 million last year, and only needs better management to be highly profitable) I will sell you at a good price. The causal relationship between med mal awards and the high cost of medical care simply does not exist, at least in California. I can’t speak for any other state, but I suspect that even in the most egregious jurisdictions reforms such as California’s will result in only modest savings.

Better to allow free market competiton – let the insurers compete across state lines, and make medical consumers have some “skin in the game.” As long as people consider medical care to be entitlements there will be no reduction in cost. I am all for high deductibles and significant co-pays, both of which will bring market forces to bear.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:40 pm 62. Gramps Cane:

Socialism is evil. It, like all evil must appear good on the surface. For instance the argument is made that, as the richest nation on earth, we have a moral obligation to care for those who cannot afford to get proper medical treatment. The way to do this is through government sponsored heath care. Everybody who makes a certain amount of money chips in some (through taxes) and everybody, regardless of income, receives the necessary health care. This bypasses the greedy capitalists who are profit driven. Sounds good. However the argument is a non-sequitur. The fact that I have a moral obligation to help my neighbor does not translate into a government forced handout of my money to someone else. In fact, the opposite is true. Government mandated handouts do several things – all of which are negative. To list a few negative results from the “giver’s” end:
1. The one making the forced contribution does not learn the value and joy of purposeful giving. The choice is removed from him. It accrues nothing to my credit if I make a ‘contribution’ at gunpoint!
2. The ‘giver’ does not learn the responsibility of giving wisely. I give according to my own values. I do not give money to people who are going to spend it on a lifestyle of which I disapprove. Again, that choice is removed from me by government sponsored robbery.
3. We become a nation of snoops. Since my tax dollars fund your medical care, your lifestyle becomes my business. (Can you see this bill board: Is your neighbor fat? Call 1-800- UR OBESE. The call is free and anonymous.”)
But the recipient’s end is no better:
1. They learn that they must live, not by absolute moral values, but by arbitrary government rules. Any form of immorality is okay provided it is not on the unauthorized list. (Homosexuality – good. Drug abuse – bad).
2. They learn that the government is the solution to all their problems. No personal responsibility. Free enterprise is bad because it makes me choose certain values over other values. I have to prioritize my lifestyle.
3. Government bureaucrats are selfless servants and are not motivated by profit. Forget the fact that they draw huge, arbitrary salaries to do work for which there is no motivation to be efficient because there is no competition.
The list is endless, but you get the picture… unless you are a Marxist.

Sep 7, 2009 - 8:44 pm 63. Now and Then:

This is going to be quite a speech. I think a little Chicago is on the way to DC. I like that. I can feel that hawk blowing off the lake right now. Mmm hmm. You’ve been rope-a-doped. And on Wednesday he spins you into the corner. Expect some serious body blows in the next few days. Punishing uppercuts. He knew you all had to huff and puff, get your patriot on, wave a few flags and genuflect to the “The U.S.S. Constitution!” like it’s the name of Bill O’Reilly’s boat. And Obama gave you your chance to mouth off – spread lies, assault character. Now he’s gonna tell his side of the story. Gonna set aside listening to that relentless right wing whine. Gonna talk about what’s right and what’s not. And the people will agree with him. and healthcare reform will pass. Then you can whine again. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there are expectations headed your way. Mmm hmm. Expectations.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:03 pm 64. Anonymous:

50. Meryl:
“So now I am supposed to feel guilty about being upset that some citizens want the power of government to take part of my earnings and give them first to the government who will in turn pay for things other people can nor or worse will not voluntarily pay for them selves. Sorry but I don’t like it I don’t like it at all.”

Well fiddle-dee-dee, Meryl. You don’t like the idea of the government taking your money and using it on things you don’t support, don’t believe in, things you believe are bad for this country. Good. You needed to be reminded of that feeling, because you’d forgotten it over the last eight years. But we didn’t. So your outrage / disappointment / disgust / disillusionment / self-righteousness / indignation are to be expected. Don’t worry, you’ll get used to it. Even so, you should consider pacing yourself. That much pure patriotism coursing through your veins may be too much for that prideful American heart to handle.

Sep 7, 2009 - 9:22 pm 65. obammy mammy:

What a crock of crap.

obammy mammy could care less about the democrats. He is creating a dictatorship.

Argue with each other and ignore the smoke house little piggies.

Sep 8, 2009 - 8:35 am 66. Cybergeezer:

Anybody knows this is going to be directed at anyone who has a vote in the House or Senate; They’re going to be threatened with loss of monetary support, public humiliation, kneecapping, or maybe a hit on you or your family, if you don’t come around to the Obama/Emanuel program. And the media will be behind this with all their resources.

Sep 8, 2009 - 3:53 pm 67. JC78:

For all the indignant, enraged at the thought of health care reform… let me remind you the reason that our country is in the financial DIASTER that it is in today… in case you have forgotten… the war we were rushed and lied into because of ‘imaginary’ WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION… The cost of that war will take generations and generations to recover from.

OR… how about credit card legislation allowing credit card companies to operate legal ‘loan sharking’ interest rates?

OR… how about financial institutions that partied at the top with our money?

I could go on….

I wish all these screamers and whiners had had the guts to speak out when we were being lied to and bankrupted. Now comes a President that actually is trying to help us, and the sheep continue to lobby on behalf of the organizations that are feeding off the bottom (that would be us!).

Sad…. to be a follower.

Sep 9, 2009 - 3:06 pm 68. Tom Perkins:

@ 67. JC78:

Name one actual lie, quote just one, that was used a pretext for the war against Saddam Hussein.

Tell me how Obama is better than Bush when Bush at least proposed to reform Social Security, and Obama’s promises to give us a deficit four times the size of Bush’s.

Sep 9, 2009 - 5:18 pm 69. Tom Perkins:

Oh, and to dispose of the rest of your BS, my credit card tried to raise my rates, I quit using the card. Big whup.

The financial disaster was caused by the Democrats, who changed the rules of mortgage lending so they were friendly to Angelo, like what Frank, Dodd, and the President did.

Greed has always been with us, what changed was the rules the Democrats wrote.

Sep 9, 2009 - 5:21 pm 70. JC78:

Tom Perkins:

Suffer us the fools.

Sep 9, 2009 - 8:51 pm 71. eronne:

Despite hefty Democratic majorities in both the House and the Senate, centrists in Obama’s party have balked at the president’s proposal to create a public health care plan to compete with private insurers.

Sep 9, 2009 - 8:55 pm 72. Tom Perkins:

@ 70. JC78

My first reply to you did not post.

Essentially, I asked you to quote even one lie, just one, which was a pretext for war with Iraq.

The catch is, is you have to show it was known to be untrue when it was said. Hindsight doesn’t count.

Then I asked you to have courage to ask youself what changed to permit the financial institutions to party with our money? Greed has been around for along time, what changed were the policies and laws of the of the government, and those changes were made on behalf of Democrats and by Democrats. Dodd, Franks, and Obama were all a part of that. The Republicans there are at worst guilty of inattention, the Democrats were the active offenders.

Per credit cards, if you don’t like the rate, don’t use the card. If they want to modify the rate, and you tell them you are freezing the account and then you don’t use it, then they can’t raise the rate.

BTW, you did know you don’t have to use any credit cards at all, right? It’s a choice you made.

The fools is the one who can’t deal with reality. The reality is that the Iraq war ia both far less expensive than Obama’s plans, and we’re actually getting something good out of it.

Sep 10, 2009 - 4:16 am 73. Acai:

Well, Obama and his wife are the SAME. They knew Jones history …that is why they picked him.

WAKE UP and stop making excuses for obama and company. people keep saying it doesn’t make sense what he is doing. IT DOES IF YOU UNDERSTAND HIS END GAME. HE IS DOING WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD. HE IS A MARXIST.

Sep 10, 2009 - 5:29 am 74. JC78:

Tom Perkins:
You really should think about reading the newspaper, a book – something besides FOX News if you want to know what ‘lies’ – what’s going on in the world. Are you kidding that you haven’t heard there were NO weapons of mass destruction? This is a fact. Here’s just one publication for your reading pleasure:

George W. Bush reasons for the Iraq War: LIES. WMDs. Iraq’s ties to al-Qaeda. Liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein and create a democratic government. His lies and refusal to accept or admit any accountability for the results of his lies have had tremendous cost to Iraq and to the U.S.

I just finished reading the riveting ”War Journal: My Five Years in Iraq” by Richard Engel, NBC News Middle East Correspondent. Richard says none of those reasons for starting the war are true, and that the war in Iraq “…has always been more about geography, religion, and power than democracy. If you see where Shiites, Sunnis, and Kurds live, it’s easy to understand their struggles for dominance.” Bush never understood that…and frankly didn’t care. He did what he wanted to do and what he wanted to do has been…and continues to be…extremely costly.

Here are some statistics on what the Iraq war (taken from think tanks such as the Brookings Institute and from the media) has cost the U.S. as of 1/21/09 due to Bush’s folly of inserting us in the middle of a civil and religious war:

4,231 U.S. soldiers killed; 30% of them younger than 22 years old
30,984 U.S. soldiers injured, with 20% of them having serious brain or spinal injuries
30% of U.S. soldiers develop serious mental health problems within 3-4 months of returning home and suicide rates in the U.S. Army hitting an all-time high in 2008
$800 billion through mid-2009 in U.S. taxpayer money
$390,000 per year to deploy just ONE U.S. soldier
142,000 – 148,000 (depending on whose statistics you use) troops in Iraq currently
513,000 U.S. troops deployed since 2003; 197,000 of those more than once and 53,000 more than 3 times
According to February, 2007 Congressional hearings (and that was two years ago so the number is probably much higher now) an estimated $10 billion wasted and mismanaged in Iraq
Now add to those staggering numbers the affect on the Iraqi people:

An estimated more than one MILLION Iraqi citizens killed as of August, 2007 (according to the Opinion Business Research survey); the official documented number around 100,000
2.25 million Iraqis displaced inside Iraq and 2.25 million Iraqis who are now refugees in Syria or Jordan as of May 2007; an additional 840,000 people displaced since May 2007 – a total of well over 5 MILLION Iraqis displaced
A note: Syria has refused to allow the 1.5 million who came there to work so many of the refugees have been forced to send their daughters – even as young as 5 or 6 – to clubs to dance to get money unofficially, becoming the family breadwinners. The girls make usually $20 to 30 per day in the clubs and the fathers of these girls act as pimps for work outside the club. These girls and their families are casualties of the U.S. War on Iraq.
Bush used the fear that the Iraq War would disintegrate into chaos to get re-elected in 2004. The cost to the American people of having four more years of Bush as president has been immense. He used fear again to continue to justify the now $12 billion per month the U.S. spends to keep our troops there. This is triple the burn rate of what we spent in the early years of the war. John McCain used fear about the war to try and get elected president and said he would never take our troops out until we had won. Only Barack Obama seems to understand that we are in a war we should never have started and that we cannot win.

The fear the Republican warmongers have perpetuated is that Iraq would descend into civil war if we leave. It has been happening for years now. Richard Engel cites countless atrocities that Iraqis have committed against other Iraqis during the Iraq War, continuing the torture and violence of Saddam Hussein:

A father’s beautiful 17-year-old daughter is kidnapped. The father talks to the kidnappers and convinces them to let him speak to his daughter. He asks her if she has been violated and she says yes. He tells the kidnappers to keep her…that he doesn’t want her back in that condition. The kidnappers execute the girl.
A family refuses an order to move from their home and their two-year-old boy is kidnapped, split open, stuffed with rice, roasted, and delivered to their doorstep.
People are executed and thrown in the streets as a warning to others to not cross the executioners.
Body parts are everywhere, bombings are commonplace, and women in particular hide in their homes in fear.
Some infrastructure improvements have been made since the U.S. invaded Iraq in 2003. Phone subscribers have increased from 800,000 to over 14 million. Internet users have increased from 4,500 to around 850,000. Those improvements do not negate the fact that the cost of the Iraq war has been very high…for the U.S., other countries, and especially for Iraqis.

Bush’s lies have caused unbelievable destruction, death, injury, harm to the U.S. reputation around the world, increase in terrorists and terrorism, U.S.-sanctioned use of torture, and money. And we wonder why our country is in the place it is now. We had an immoral, destructionist, lying, and above-the-law president who felt he was accountable to no one. The American people followed suit…we felt we could do anything and not pay a price. We are paying now…both as a country and individually.

Sep 10, 2009 - 7:56 pm 75. Tom Perkins:

@JC78

You have a a problem with reading comprehension.

I said to quote a lie. Repeating what was said at the time and thought true then is not quoting a lie.

I don’t watch FOX news.

“WMDs.” Thought to be true, so not a lie. Also, several thousand tones of previously unaccounted for WMDs were recovered from Iraq. Organized depots were not found, much smaller ad hoc collections were.

“Iraq’s ties to al-Qaeda.” They existed. Sorry, not a lie. Also, Saddam’s support of suicide bombers and harboring terrorists puts him firmly in their camp, so not a lie even in the elliptic sense of exaggerating the truth.

“Liberate Iraqis from Saddam Hussein and create a democratic government.” 100% done, so not a lie.

“His lies” None yet. “and refusal to accept or admit any accountability for the results of his lies have had tremendous cost to Iraq and to the U.S.” How exactly is the responsibility for any of it solely his when it’s Congress’ job to cut the check, to oversee the intelligence services, and they did to their own satisfaction? Also, unlike Obama’s proposed and current expenditure’s the Iraq war is of net benefit to the US, and a really very light cost in terms of what like wars have traditionally cost, especially in terms of what has and will be gained. You need to read more so you develop a better sense of history.

Richard Engel misses the point that the Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds he’s carping about are voting–it is all about democracy within the bounds of of popularly accountable, responsive law.

Oh, and 1 million Iraqis are dead? Okay, the utterly discredited Lancet study said it was 600,000; and that was a stupidly high faked number. You just keep on throwing up BS numbers, your crowd will always believe them no matter how large they are.

Oh, and there’s refugees and civilian casualties in a civil conflict, who knew!?

On what cloud do you live where that is a reasonable criteria? By your rules, we lost WWII because therefugees weren’t all settled by 1950–your rules are unintelligent.

If we had simply departed Iraq in 2004, or in any year since, the Turks would have occupied the Kurdish north in large part or comletely, and there would be worse conflict there, the Shiites would have fought the Sunnis into extinction, except where the Saudis shoved enough arms at them to prevent it, and the resulting arms embargo would have the Iraqi Shiites turning to the disliked (by them) Iranians in open alliance.

Not one earthly thing about it would be improved by our absence, including our own goals being met, which they generally are. In your desired course of action, none of our goals are met except the end of Hussein’s government, which was not the sole goal of the war.

“and especially for Iraqis.”

Then they should have managed their own affairs better.

This became our mess to fix when they wouldn’t do it.

Sep 11, 2009 - 3:28 am 76. gaetano:

Obama is not the man that everyone thought he was.In 7 months he has prooven that he is not truthful, sincere,nor does he have any feelings for american people,either democrats or republicans,and he sure doesn`t consider that what he`s doing may or may not hurt americans.He seems to play a game of “MY WAY OR THE HIWAY”.He has fooled a lot of people with his sharp tongue,even his own party.Yes the democrats took control of congress and got everything they ever wanted,but one thing is for sure.THEY DO NOT KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH IT.

Sep 15, 2009 - 5:28 am