Pajamas Media

72 Comments

1. Meryl:

Why is the bar set….so low for the Muslim world? Because the nincompoops who set the bar are scared of the Muslims. They are not scared of the Catholic church. They’ve surrendered to Islamic terrorism.

Feb 12, 2009 - 11:11 am 2. bill:

When the Jewish people make at least a modest effort to discourage Christian-hating in their ranks, I’ll be more sympathetic to their complaints against the Catholic Church (who, incidentally, earned them). They might want to start with modifying the daily Orthodox prayers which invoke a curse upon the “Nazrim” (Christians). Anti-Semitism is a horrible condition that manifests in evil acts of which “Christians” have committed their share. But you can’t defeat hate with more hate. Amen.

Feb 12, 2009 - 11:11 am 3. David Thomson:

The idiotic Bishop Richard Williamson is a white man. That’s all you need to know. Muslims are normally perceived to be dark skinned. Thus, they are victims of the racist and imperialist West. I offer myself as evidence of just how difficult it is to learn about evil Islamic adherents. It was only a few years ago when the name of the Grand Mufti, Haj Muhammed Amin al-Husseini, burst upon my personal radar screen. This despicable man thought that Adolph Hitler wasn’t killing enough Jews! He provided the Fuhrer with both advice and active support on how to be more successfully rid the world of all Jews. And yet, I was neverendingly being made aware of the alleged failings of Pope Pius XII. What did he do? At the worst, the Catholic leader was too hesitant to take Adolph Hitler to task. No reasonable person, though, argues that the pope was a Jew killer. What’s wrong with this picture?

Feb 12, 2009 - 11:12 am 4. Laura:

#2 Bill.
As someone who has sat in many synagogues and listened to many, many rabbis preach over the past 25 years, I have never once heard any anti-Christian speech, or anti-Moslem for that matter. Jews are by-and-large extremely tolerant. Almost too much so at times. Perhaps that is our downfall.

Feb 12, 2009 - 11:44 am 5. Orthodox Jew:

There’s a curse against the Notzrim in the daily (or weekly) prayer service? Have I been skipping something for the past 30 years?
Seriously, if Bill is referring to the reference to “malshinim,” this has always referred to heretics and persecutors of the Jewish people — both Jewish and non-Jewish; it is simply a myth that this word replaced the word “Notzrim” (Christians) in the middle ages.

Feb 12, 2009 - 12:22 pm 6. Clyde:

al-Husseini: Arafat’s “uncle”:
Arafat’s biography: http://www.mideastweb.org/bio-arafat.htm

“Details of Yasser Arafat’s early life are obscure and disputed. His real name was Rahman Abdel-Raouf Arafat al-Qudwa al-Husseini, and …. Arafat’s father was a merchant of the Hussaini family. Arafat’s father was Abdul al Qudwa (or Kidwa). His mother was Hamida Khalifa Al-Husseini, one of the many cousins of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin El Husseini.”

Nuts and trees. Fatah is steeped in the poison from the get-go; so much for being “moderate”, unless Hamas & Hezbollah is the only measuring stick allowed.

Feb 12, 2009 - 12:25 pm 7. bill:

Orthodox Jew,

If you are correct, I’m actually glad. Laura, I’m not saying that it is preached in the Synagogues. I’m saying that anti-Christianity is a default position for many Jewish people in matters of “interfaith dialogue”. It seems to be assumed that all Christians bear some guilt for Blood-Libel and other atrocities. Y’know, for once I’d like to let it out. We Christians (most of us) are horribly sorry and ashamed of how Jews have been treated in the name of Jesus- especially during the Middle Ages. It sometimes seems to be an indelible stain that mars our faith. I for one don’t blame Jews for not wanting to consider Yeshua as the Messiah because of the evil committed in His name. I sometimes wish human beings hadn’t gotten hold of the Gospel because they bastardized it within the first three centuries C.E.

Having said all that, I want to note that I’ve seen Jesus described as the “Deceiver” ( http://www.messiahtruth.com/response.html), and any one with a dog in the fight should read this: http://geocities.com/birthofjesus/toledothyeshu.htm. There is plenty of Jewish bitterness towards Christians and to deny it is disingenuous. Perhaps many feel it is warranted. So be it. I hope we can all put our cards on the table and learn to love.

Feb 12, 2009 - 1:21 pm 8. colby:

bill:

way to hijack the thread and make it christian vs. jew.

Feb 12, 2009 - 1:53 pm 9. David Thomson:

“way to hijack the thread and make it christian vs. jew.”

I am a theological modernist, neither Christian nor Jewish—and I am convinced that this is a discussion that can no longer be avoided. The recent attacks by Jews on Sarah Palin were often examples of pure bigotry. And it is most bizarre that countless Jews considered the late and admittedly peculiar, but adamantly pro-Israel Jerry Falwell as their diehard enemy. How in heaven’s name did this nonsense ever occur? I find it amazing that many Jews cut enormous slack for their left-wing enemies while unhesitatingly sliming their Christian allies. Barack Obama also attended a racist and anti-Semitic Church—and still received the votes of over 80% of all Jewish voters. Huh? Isn’t it time that this madness ceases?

Feb 12, 2009 - 2:19 pm 10. Mongoose:

Meyrl. Just so.

Feb 12, 2009 - 2:35 pm 11. Leatherneck:

I know for a fact, there are men in Scotland ready to crush skulls. I played Rugby there for two years.

A small 15yr old kid, and women is about all the moon god worshipers can defeat.

Go Greenock Wanderers! I miss you, but mostly I miss the beer, and songs.

Feb 12, 2009 - 2:37 pm 12. Mongoose:

laur, Orthodox: You tell them. What nonsense.

To be fair, I have never heard Jew hatred inside a Catholic Church either.

This person would unwelcome in any Parish I know of.

Feb 12, 2009 - 2:38 pm 13. Marc Malone:

I think the Muslims get slack, because they don’t profess any tolerance. They are consistent in their low standards. Christians, on the other hand, are required to be on the Jews’ side. When you set high standards and slip, you get castigated.

This is identical to the problem Pubs face versus Dems. The Pubs preach higher standards, so get pasted when they slip. Since the Dems claim no kind of standards, they can’t be charged with hypocrisy. We know they’re scumbags. No one cares if they prove it time to time.

Sadly, the majority don’t speak out against the overall immorality of the Muslims or the Dems. As Bob Dole once raged, “Where’s the outrage?” Um, Bob, outrage belongs to those few with spirit.

Feb 12, 2009 - 2:46 pm 14. TexasJew:

I don’t want to get into a big Jew vs. Christian fight here, so I’ll simply comment on the original thread.
Personally, I have never excused the Moslem world’s Jew-hatred, and I never bought into the Oslo Accords, which were patently BS to anyone who had a single clue as the real intentions of the Palestinian leadership were.
Most Jews just like to support stupid leftwing causes even when they are joining hands with people who would sell them out for a plug nickel. If you ask them, you get the same kind of deer-in-the-headlights look and idiotic response that one gets from the typical stupid Obama voter.
What country other than Israel would allow Olmert or that cretin Livni to keep their jobs after the 2006 Lebanon debacle?
Bottom line: don’t believe the hype that Jews are much smarter than anybody else. Except for our brilliant 9 year-old Jewish daughter, of course..

Feb 12, 2009 - 3:46 pm 15. Mitchell Blatt:

Muslims do not have a whole lot of influence in America because they are such a small population in America. We shouldn’t lower the bar for a**holes like Rashid Khalidi, but come on? Can you name any powerful Muslims in America?

Muslims abroad like Ahmadinajsdosdfosdfohjkssdhfjsdf and Hamas are hated by regular people and by the majority of Americans.

We should stick with the standards we have now where anyone who denies the Holocaust is a racist regardless of race and shouldn’t be given a position as a Bishop.

Feb 12, 2009 - 3:46 pm 16. Andrew Ian Dodge:

Is anyone shocked that a former member of the Hitler Youth is not that bothered by a Bishop who denys the Holocaust? I have heard plenty of Jew hatred from Catholics (starting with Mad Mel Gibson) through paying attention to what goes on in Europe. British Catholics, however, are very tolerant in my experience. They tend to be less intense than some of their continental fellow-believers.

It has always irked me that an Jew-hating Christian gets far more flack than a Jew-hating Muslim.

These “Jewish” criticisms of Palin that you speak of. Did any of them ever call for her death? Nope, didn’t think so…

PS: Can one explain to me why ranting central European Catholics go on about Jews & Masons?

Feb 12, 2009 - 4:04 pm 17. Yehudit:

David Thompson is correct; I see this all the time among liberal Jews, which is most American Jews. They really believe Christianity is a bigger threat than Islam.

Feb 12, 2009 - 4:17 pm 18. cedarford:

AID – “These “Jewish” criticisms of Palin that you speak of. Did any of them ever call for her death? Nope, didn’t think so…”

No, just Sandra Bernhard saying she wanted to get a pack of black thugs she knew to gang rape her ignorant Christian ass.
“Just humor, she knows our heart, and we know hers”, the Israeli-born director of the DC Jewish Center, explaining why his predominately Jewish audience howled about the gang rape, ignorant trash Christian fashion throwback, and other remarks.

Marc Malone:
I think the Muslims get slack, because they don’t profess any tolerance. They are consistent in their low standards. Christians, on the other hand, are required to be on the Jews’ side.

I don’t know of any element of Christian theology that “requires” Christians to be on Jews side. Or Hindus side, or on the side of shamans and warlocks, or even fellow Christians…
Nor, in the case of Israel, any “requirement” for the USA to be on Israel’s side. Unless it is in America’s vital interests. We have no defense committment with them, nor is there a magical standard where we “die for foreign democracies sake”.

Feb 12, 2009 - 5:11 pm 19. Dadzilla:

Muslims have to hate Jews because it is the outward projection that insulates them from looking in the mirror and seeing they are failures in modern civilization despite having the riches and natural resources of the world available to them, to see and realize that their God must love the Jews more than them to let them suffer the losses of ‘48,’56,’67,’72,’06, and ‘09. Muslims will evolve only when they love their children more than they hate the Jews, from a historical point of view I don’t hold out hope that will ever happen.

Feb 12, 2009 - 5:56 pm 20. Annie:

Left Wing of the Catholic Church Destroying the Faith Says Orthodox Rabbi:

“I support this move” to reconcile the traditionalist faction in the Church, he said, “because I understand the big picture, which is that the Catholic Church has a problem. There is a strong left wing of the Church that is doing immeasurable harm to the faith.”

Rabbi Levin said that he understands “perfectly” why the reconciliation is vital to the fight against abortion and the homosexualist movement.

“I understand that it is very important to fill the pews of the Catholic Church not with cultural Catholics and left-wingers who are helping to destroy the Catholic Church and corrupt the values of the Catholic Church.”

This corruption, he said, “has a trickle-down effect to every single religious community in the world.”

“What’s the Pope doing? He’s trying to bring the traditionalists back in because they have a lot of very important things to contribute the commonwealth of Catholicism.

Rabbi Levin particularly defended Pope Benedict, saying he is the genius behind the moves of the late Pope John Paul II to reconcile the Church with the Jewish community.

“Anyone who understands and follows Vatican history knows that in the last three decades, one of the moral and intellectual underpinnings of the papacy of Pope John Paul II, was Cardinal Ratzinger…….
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/feb/09021112.html

This Rabbi gets it!

I suggest those who only read the leftie MSM do some research. Start with http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/religion-forum/index then go to some Catholic blogs. http://wdtprs.com/blog/ or http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/ and connect with other links from their sites.

This is something the Vatican’s been working on for decades and the closest we’ve ever gotten. Pope Benedict will not be deterred by this hubbub as his job is in saving souls. Please keep in mind that the lifting of the excommunication is only a first step in the healing and all it involves is that they can receive Holy Communion in communion with the body of the Catholic Church and that’s it. There’s a long road ahead before they’re finally reconciled. I pray for that day.

Feb 12, 2009 - 6:27 pm 21. Delia:

By their own creed: A good Muslim is a dead Muslim and preferably taking a lot of innocent people along for the ride.

Hello?

DOY!

Religion on its face is full of contradictory and sometimes questionable doctrine but Islam is full-on bat shit CRAZY. I mean bring on the PSYCHOTIC crazy!

NUKE! NUKE! NUKE!

Yes, I’m in a pissy mood.

lol

Feb 12, 2009 - 7:44 pm 22. Cluny:

When Williamson made his remarks, he was NOT an official member of the Catholic Church. That’s what excommunication means.

The lifting of the excommunications merely made these bishops, including Williamson, and by extension their clergy, passengers on the Barque of Peter–NOT commissioned officers. They are still suspended from exercise of their orders.

Since the SSPX has NO official status in the Catholic Church, clergy of it do NOT exercise their ministry licitly (as canon law puts it).

Feb 12, 2009 - 8:46 pm 23. Oscar the Grump:

I worked for the Catholic church a number of years ago. Granted I was the only Jew in their employment, it was very interesting. I knew everyone from the ArchBishop to the newest Priest in the whole Diocese and would get into some very interesting discussions with them. I ran into everything from pure anti-Semitism to open warmth and love. I never had to hide the fact that I was Jewish or apologize for it. One priest told me he was glad that I was working for the church. When I asked why? He explained, that when he became a Priest it was the church’s policy to punish the Jews for murdering Christ. He followed what was told to him but was bothered by it. He felt that on many levels it wasn’t right. Seeing me that moment seemed to correct a terrible decree. Other Priests told me other stories and many became my true friends. When my daughter became 13 and had her Bat Mitzvah, there were more Priests at the ceremony than Jews. I will never forget their warmth and friendship.

Feb 12, 2009 - 8:54 pm 24. Karl:

You have to understand that western societies are now run by neo-socialists who oppose any thing which is attached to the Judeo-Christian tradition which fostered free enterprise democracies. This means that any enemy of America and its allies is a friend of western intellectuals and western medias and western governments. If you wish to see our future look no farther then Venezuela and Chavez. After this period of soft totalitarianism comes the boot on the neck of any one who opposes the intellectuals who are the font of all knowledge. In America it has started with the fiscal “stimulus” giving billions to the socialist foot soldiers at Acorn, the suppression of opposition radio with the “fairness doctrine” and the moving of the census to the political operatives in Obama’s office. It is amazing how many JEINOs (jews in name only) populate the socialist left.

Feb 12, 2009 - 10:08 pm 25. Gary Rosen:

Right, Sandra Bernhard is an observant Jew.
Here are C-fudd’s credentials on interfaith dialogue:

http://minx.cc/?post=66320

He’s also a proven and compulsive liar.

Feb 12, 2009 - 10:30 pm 26. Orthodox Jew:

Hi Bill! I hear you. I have to admit that I myself haven’t heard all that much anti-Christian or anti-Christianity stuff from fellow Jews, though I don’t doubt there’s much to what you say. From my own experience, I associate that kind of thing with two groups of Jews: 1) the offspring of very bitter Holocaust survivors and 2) more prevalently, religiously ignorant, secular Jews who get all their supposed “Jewish” identity from being leftists. I’m much in agreement with “Texas Jew” on this. Maybe their knee-jerk reaction to Christian Fundamentalists (which isn’t necessarily harsher than their reaction to Orthodox Jews) isn’t to call for Jihad, but that’s not the point. It’s an unreflecting, hostile group-think that fills in for lack of real Jewish content. One last point: no need to offer abject apology and sorrow for what you yourself wouldn’t countenance. Many Jews owe their lives to some very brave Christians. The only obligation christians — or anyone — have is simply not to go into denial. Just because Jews are still upset and in mourning doesn’t mean you’re required to keep apologizing.

Feb 12, 2009 - 11:28 pm 27. don:

You have to give the Romans credit for one thing that we (seem) still not to have gotten right. You could have any religion you wanted long as you paid your taxes and did not practice human sacrifice. By that standard Islam might not have gotten anywhere if the Empire had still been around. We express our pride in “freedom of religion” and morph it into “freedom from . . .” and now? “War against . . .”? I’m rambling, enough to say we have a culture (here and in Europe) that seems to be looking for and forcing a decline in all aspects; aspirations, belief, ethics and the concepts of right and wrong. A society in conflicts like this is at a great disadvantage when facing one who’s belief is it’s foundation. Mike Yon published a picture of a church being rebuilt in Baghdad by locals (who were not Christian) their desire was that the Christians would return, in the UK you have a war on Christian/English traditions (replaced with . . .Winterval!?) because of some seeming “possibility” of Muslims being insulted by these traditions . . . the community of the faithful (in the UK and here) love God. Where we have conflict generated derives from two groups; the secularists (threatened by the very idea of faith and tradition) and the lunatic fringe (the Salafist heresy and it’s Shia avatar in Islam, and some tiny, obscure, less violent groups in the Christian community). Just as the Muslim Umma must take control of their lunatics, we must take control of our radical secularists. There is right, there is wrong, good and evil. There are standards for both (derived from where and what?). Without the community of faith (all religious groups) exercising it’s combined potential for great good . . . we’ll see a denigration of societies and finally a conflagration pitting the faithless against the hegemony of the death cults.

Feb 13, 2009 - 4:31 am 28. wayne:

Cedarford, you might want to spend some time reading the Bible.

Us Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian types take great stock in both Old and New Testaments and there are multiple specific verses stating that any nation or people that helps Israel will be Blessed by the Lord and any nation or people that curses Israel will be cursed by the Lord. I don’t remember that being rescinded any where.

Nothing there says anything about us acting differently whether or not the Jews are acting like idiots about something. It just says that the Lord told us to support them. Period. You love the Lord and you do what the Lord wants and he will Bless you or you ignore His precepts and you will get squashed (for example: Nazi Germany). There is a reason they call it FEAR OF THE LORD.

Feb 13, 2009 - 5:41 am 29. LynnS:

#18 Cedarford

I think you are forgetting about the “No greater Love” theology.

Feb 13, 2009 - 7:03 am 30. A. Nonymous:

I understand that Bishop Williamson said he was prepared to retract his statement that no Jews died in gas chambers if someone could prove it to him. If he means it, he might want to chat with someone who knew the late Archbishop Valerian Trifa.Trifa was a gas chamber operator at Treblinka.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:00 am 31. Laura:

Bill:

Jews did not reject Jesus because of the evil committed in his name. He was rejected because he did not, and does not, fulfill the requirements of who and what the Messiah is. The Messiah will be a descendant of King David. All lineage in biblical days was traced through the paternal bloodlines. If Jesus was the literal son of G-d and was adopted by Joseph (a descendant of King David) then he cannot be a viable candidate for Messiah since there are no paternal blood ties linking him to David. There are many other reasons as well.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:28 am 32. Laura:

I would like to add to those readers of this site that I am not anti-Christian. One of the reasons that I wanted Sarah Palin to win was BECAUSE of her faith. I would take an Evangelical conservative Christian over a liberal Jew any day.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:35 am 33. Self-hating Boomer:

The recent attacks by Jews on Sarah Palin were often examples of pure bigotry. And it is most bizarre that countless Jews considered the late and admittedly peculiar, but adamantly pro-Israel Jerry Falwell as their diehard enemy.

I think you’re misreading a very real phenomenon. By and large, these aren’t Orthodox Jews attacking Palin for her Christianity (after all, why weren’t they attacking 0bama for his antisemitic BLT church?), they were secular leftist Jews attacking her for purely political and ideological reasons.

As a general rule, the Orthodox are a lot more tolerant of Christianity, particularly of the evangelical variety, than Reform (or just plain secular). Anti-Christian hatred is something that lurks slightly below the surface of most Reform/secular Jews, and it doesn’t take much to bring it to the surface.

But no Bill, it’s neither a religious thing, nor an Orthodox thing. It’s all politics and ideology. Topped by a helping of cultural arrogance.

Feb 13, 2009 - 8:48 am 34. LynnS:

#31 Laura

An expert could answer you, but it is my understanding that the Jewish People trace their bloodline through the female. I believe that some claim that Joseph, the husband of Mary, traced his blood-line to King David. Some claim that Mary’s bloodline can be traced to King David. I don’t know if that is accepted by the majority of Jewish People. I know in the New Testament there are two genealogies for Jesus and some believe one is through Joseph and one is through Mary.

What I wonder is do some Jewish People think Jesus was a Jewish Prophet or if they said that to not be killed by Christians. I am not saying that true followers of Jesus had spiritual authority to kill Jewish People, I just know that some so-called Christians claim or claimed they did.

There are also some in Islam who claim Mohammad is an ancestor of Ishmael which leads to more questions.

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:14 am 35. thomas:

I don’t care for the comparison. Just because Muslims allow and may even encourage this toxic sh*t, doesn’t mean we should have any truck or trade with it. Williamson is an embarassment and an ass. While he has a right to his opinions, he has no right to his position. He should be dismissed immediately.

Feb 13, 2009 - 9:38 am 36. Marc Malone:

I laugh at the Jewish idea of Jesus not being the Messiah. Oh, we don’t think he has the right geneology. Ooo, oh. (wringing of hands) Miracles he performed? What does that have to do with anything? He doesn’t have the right bloodline!

Jews always play the fool. Generation after generation, they turn away from God and get themselves in hot water. They never learn. God loves them, though, and so do I, like one would love an idiot-savant nephew who occasionally goes ’round the bend. They have such a good, rich culture. It’s sad when they walk away from it and join the Philistines. I guess I shouldn’t criticize, though. Lots of Christians walk away from their culture and traditions, too.

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:51 am 37. Annie:

A. Nonymous,
Did the Archbishop from the Rumanian Orthodox Episcopate church get a trial or was he just accused and hounded by radical Jewish groups who bombed Romanian Orthodox churches in New York? Did he get a decent trial? If so, what was the final court decision?

Feb 13, 2009 - 11:02 am 38. Laura:

#34 Lynn

The Jewish people NOW declare the Jewishness of the child through the mother, but in the biblical days, it was through the father. It was changed during the times of the Crusades when thousands of Jewish women were raped by non-Jews. Also, the rabbis decreed that the mother is the primary educator of the child, not the father.

Feb 13, 2009 - 12:15 pm 39. Laura:

#36. Marc Malone,

No G-d-fearing, practicing Jew attaches themselves to the Philistines. We have sometimes had to play devil’s advocate, depending on which host-country we have been allowed to reside in. That is simply self-preservation. Not having the right bloodline is only ONE of the reasons why Jews do not believe that Jesus was our Messiah. You insult millions of people with your ignorant comments.

Feb 13, 2009 - 12:20 pm 40. LynnS:

#38 Laura

You might be right but I read that if the father had no sons then the line travels through the mother. So I guess the answer is both. Thanks for the information.

Feb 13, 2009 - 1:35 pm 41. Oscar the Grump:

In essence what is central to Jews not accepting Jesus as their messiah is the fact that nothing was better after he was here. As a matter of fact, the Jews had it much harder after he was here. If he was our savior, exactly who did he save? It wasn’t us. If we look at Moses, he saved the Jewish people from the Egyptians. Sometimes they went kicking and screaming, but he did it. We weren’t saved by Jesus, we were enslaved after him. The primary job of our messiah is to save us physically. We are to owe our allegence to none other than our God. That can’t change under any circumstances. Our souls already belong to God.

Feb 13, 2009 - 1:36 pm 42. cedarford:

wayne:
Cedarford, you might want to spend some time reading the Bible.

Us Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian types take great stock in both Old and New Testaments and there are multiple specific verses stating that any nation or people that helps Israel will be Blessed by the Lord and any nation or people that curses Israel will be cursed by the Lord. I don’t remember that being rescinded any where.

Not true, as even the Fundies think the Old Covenent was dissolved after Christ and Christians operate on a New Covevenent that hews to Christian faith and not being obedient to Jews or any King they have..

Certainly, there WAS NO Israel for all of the era of the Christian Religion, for nearly two millenia – up to 1948 – and no one was blessed or cursed by how they felt about a dead and long gone country..As a movement, Christian Zionism and its dubious claims started even later than that, in the mid-1970s, and almost all it’s “adherents” are in the least educated parts of the South and rural white areas of America elsewhere.

I noted that yesterday, the 200th anniversary of the Birth of both Lincoln and Darwin, the one place in the world where both are despised and rejected is in the Fundie South.

**************
Gary Rosen:
Right, Sandra Bernhard is an observant Jew.

Whether she was an observant Jew or her entire audience of Jews at the DC Jewish Center howling as she ripped into the “ignorant Christian bitch, Palin” – is irrelevant. As much so as asking if Mohammed Atta was a properly observant Muslim…

When a Jew does much good, like Paul Mewman, Jews are happy to claim him and take credit for him no matter how observant he was (not very) on simple ethnicity. When a Jew comes off in a bad light, Jews inject “how observant” they were as an exculpatory mechanism. As in – Bernie Madoff – he really wasn’t THAT observant…

Feb 13, 2009 - 2:37 pm 43. jonesy55:

“In essence what is central to Jews not accepting Jesus as their messiah is the fact that nothing was better after he was here. As a matter of fact, the Jews had it much harder after he was here. If he was our savior, exactly who did he save?”

Not being an expert or anything but wouldn’t the Christian answer to that be that ‘life was better for thosse jews who converted to Christianity as told to by the messiah’, those who rejected him obviously didn’t benefit, because they rejected the Messiah.

As with many religious questions, it becomes a circular argument, life is much easier as an agnostic, lol.

Feb 13, 2009 - 3:03 pm 44. Oscar the Grump:

jonesy55
First point, he’s not our messiah. He wasn’t the first to make that claim and he’s not the last. Everyone one of these messiahs we had was a disaster to us. So to us its not a new song, its not an old song, just a continuing song. Its just not our tune.

Cedarfart
I see you’re back to your old self. Why in your opinion is it that when a single Jew does something wrong it reflects on all of us. When a Jew does something right you make fun of him. What’s it like to hate Jews? Give me a feel for it, I’m really curious.

Feb 13, 2009 - 3:47 pm 45. David:

Regarding Jews vs. Christians… First of all, Jews who did not follow Christ blamed the Christian Jews for the fall of the temple. This thought applied to Gentile/Jewish Christians throughout the centuries. The Judaizers have not stopped trying to alter Christianity since the 1st century.

The proud and disobedient Christians (Ex-Catholics like Luther and Calvin, etc.), fall like dominos and that is why we have this “new” dual-covenant Christianity as well as other twisted theological views that have visited us this past century. It is going to get far worse in the next few decades. Only the humble and obedient survive…just as in the close of the old age before Christ.

There is a high bar for the Catholic Church as the blameless Bride of Christ who teaches all truth forever until the end of time and that is why she will always be attacked on everyside just at the bible states.

Obedience and Humility climbs the mountain, Pride and disobedience falls like an avalanche.

Feb 13, 2009 - 5:00 pm 46. David:

I’d suggest folks look into who was running the Islamic “war cabinet” while it was sweeping across countries trying to wipeout Christianity.
I believe you can find that info at the Jewish Virtual Library website.

Feb 13, 2009 - 5:19 pm 47. don:

Whoa! I did not think this thread was strictly about the Christian vs Jewish thing. As far as how after Jesus how things “got worse”. You have to thank the zealots and their revolution against an occupying power. SO the Zealots fought against Legions (professionals) and lost. They fought against an occupying power that let them worship as they wished, demanded they give loyalty to Rome and pay their taxes (”give unto Ceasar”) . . . and wondered why things would get “worse”.

Feb 13, 2009 - 5:43 pm 48. josil:

Self-Hating Boomer got it exactly right. The anti-Palim attitude of “secular” Jews does not have a religious basis but it largely political and left-wing. In general, politically conservative Jews (yes, there are some: c. 25-30%)and Orthodox Jews find much compatibility with Fundamentalist Christians–perhaps the most serious Christians of all the assorted branches. But, somehow this track wandered from the original theme: Why are Muslims held to a (much) lower standard of tolerance than the Archbishop?

Feb 13, 2009 - 10:44 pm 49. Marc Malone:

#39 Laura – I agre that God-fearing Jews do not join the Philistines, but those who turn away from Him, do. I know that there are other reasons why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah, but Jesus fulfilled 37 different Biblical prophecies. What more do you need? My comment was not ignorant. I find Jewish non-acceptance of Jesus ignorant.

This is the separation between our faith systems, but I am happy to let it be. I would not think of trying to proselytize a Jew. I’m happy with them, and they can count on my support… as long as they don’t call me ignorant and say I insult them. They, too, need to accept our differences, and also accept us as their desperately needed friends and allies.

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:07 am 50. Lynn:

It could be that some people get mad, not because they don’t accept Jesus, but because He doesn’t accept them. I’m not pointing out a certain group, as he tended to speak to everyone.

Feb 14, 2009 - 5:58 am 51. Donna V.:

Andrew Ian Dodge: I agree with you most of the time and so are saddened you’ve fallen for the “Pope is a Nazi!” line so beloved by anti-Catholic bigots. Benedict had the misfortune of being born and coming to age in Nazi Germany. His parents were staunch Catholics who were privately very critical of the Nazis. (And it is very easy for people with no experience of living under totalitarian dictatorships to sneer at “privately” – of course, it would have been braver of them to take the Sophie Scholl route. And then we wouldn’t be talking about Benedict, because he and his family would have died in concentration camps.) Membership in the Hitler Youth was not optional; neither was his brief Army service. If you can point me to any anti-Semitic statements Ratzinger made during his long career in the Catholic clergy, I’d be glad to see it.

There were individual Christians, many of them clergy, who behaved terribly during the war years. There were others, including clergy, who risked, and in some cases lost their lives hiding and protecting Jews.

But if it is unfair to hold up a Williamson as emblematic of Catholics, so too is it unfair to pretend that that doofus Sandra Bernhardt or Madoff represent Jews as a whole, as Cedarford does.

I would agree that many left-wing Jews seem to have a special hatred for Christianity, particularly evangelical Christianity. But those same people are not terribly tolerant of observant Jews either. The only religious folks secular leftist Jews seem willing to tolerate are, ironically, Muslims – the people who would gladly slit their throats. In that respect, leftist Jews are not any different from their leftist goy counterparts, although perhaps the leftist Jews have an even greater degree of self-hatred.

Feb 14, 2009 - 12:02 pm 52. Oscar the Grump:

David
I don’t know of any era where Jews persecuted Christians. The early Christians were an off shoot of Judaism. There was no distinguishing lines. Its just like looking at Chabad today in reference to Judaism. Early Christianity was strongly influenced by the Greeks. Before they touched Christianity, it didn’t matter to any Jew whether you accepted Jesus as the Messiah or not. After the core of Judaism was stripped out of the new Christianity, it was no longer recognizable to the Jews. Our relationship had always been a direct Jew and God relationship. Going through somebody to get to God was unthinkable.

The term Judaizer is a new one to me. Please explain it to me. I’ll be glad to give you my point of view once I understand it.

Another point, I don’t know of anybody attacking the Catholic church. Conversely I do know of the Catholic Church attacking others ie. the Inquistion, the taking of the Americas from the native population, the Thirty Year War in Europe, not to mention the countless pograms instigated by the church.

I’m not trying to be belligerent, and I do want to continue this discourse with you. I think we will both learn from each other and both come away from it for the better.

Feb 14, 2009 - 12:44 pm 53. Donna V.:

Oscar the Grump: I believe that when David is referring to Judaizers, he means the debate in the very early Church over whether or not followers of Christ had to follow Jewish laws regarding circumcision, kosher food and so on. As you note, the first Christians were all Jewish and continued to think of themselves as Jews. Jesus himself was a practicing Jew and did not preach to gentiles. So when gentiles started converting, many Jewish Christians became confused. How, exactly, do these people fit into the picture?. Some of the Jews – Peter was one – felt that the gentile Christians should be bound to observe Jewish dietary laws and customs, as they felt themselves bound to continue to do so. Others, like Paul, said gentiles did not have to do so. Obviously, Paul won that fight. I have no idea where David got this from:

The Judaizers have not stopped trying to alter Christianity since the 1st century.

B.S. That debate ended in the 1st century. The idea that “Judaizers” were plotting to “alter Christianity” in say, 1200, when Europe was solidly Christian and the Jews were a tiny, dispersed and persecuted minority is ridiculous, as most conspiracy theories are. I dunno, maybe David learned theology from Mel Gibson’s dad.

Feb 14, 2009 - 3:41 pm 54. Chris:

Oscar,
There was no period when Jews persecuted Christians? What about right after the religion got started? The Jewish people in Judaea were not very accepting of offshoot religions. While I am Christian and that influences me, there is outside evidence that supports the Jewish leaders of persecuting early Christians; watch the Naked Archaelogist. He’s great at pointing out the historical facts from the Bible.

As for no one attacking the Catholic Church…Lets see easiest is Hitler and Mussolini. Hitler referred to Pope Pius XII as the “Jew Pope”. He also referred to him as one of his worse enemies. Following them are the Arabian Empires that were around during the Middle Ages especially the ones prevalent in Spain. Before you get on your high horse and say that the Christians started the wars with the Arabians think for a moment, who was in power in Judaea and North Africa prior to the different Arab Dynasties? The Roman and following them the Byzantine Empires. While Rome was Pagan the Byzantine Empire was Christian. They were invaded by the Sasanid Empire and forced to give up Syria and Judaea, not the other way around.

You say Jews have a direct relationship to God. While I am not Jewish I can say that based on the Old Testament that is false. If there always existed a direct relationship why did Moses lead the Israelites out of Egypt? Why did Moses have to come down the mountain with the 10 Commandments? If there was a direct relationship God would not have needed Prophets. Since both religions recognize the Old Testament how can you say that Christians stripped the core out of Judaism?

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:04 pm 55. Donna V.:

Conversely I do know of the Catholic Church attacking others ie. the Inquistion, the taking of the Americas from the native population, the Thirty Year War in Europe, not to mention the countless pograms instigated by the church.

The Catholic Church certainly has blots on its past and I do not attempt to justify them. (As an American Catholic, I thank God for the seperation of church and state, because the history of the Church shows how secular power can corrupt men of the cloth.) But pointing out the bad things the Church has done is, to me, like pointing out that Americans once owned slaves and killed native Americans. Yes, that’s true – but that doesn’t sum up America.

If there are Catholics who make me ashamed to be Catholic, there are others who quietly spend their lives serving others and being exactly what Christians are supposed to be (I don’t pretend to be in that number). I know of a doctor who entered the priesthood at 35 and is now working as both priest and doctor in the Phillipines, doing his best to care for very poor people. He could be leading a comfortable middle class life in the states, but he is doing what he believes the Lord wants him to do. You don’t hear of priests like him very much in the MSM; only the pervs and the anti-semitic kooks. But the holy men and women of faith are out there. It is the example of people like that that keep decent people in the Church. (And of course, there are saintly folk of other faiths – I do not mean to imply that we have an monopoly on good, holy people. I would feel much better about Islam if I saw any evidence that that faith produces good people who help and build and nurture rather than kill and destroy and tear down.)

Feb 14, 2009 - 4:06 pm 56. Annie:

“I don’t know of anybody attacking the Catholic church. Conversely I do know of the Catholic Church attacking others ie. the Inquistion, the taking of the Americas from the native population, the Thirty Year War in Europe, not to mention the countless pograms instigated by the church.”

Oscar the Grump: “I don’t know of anybody attacking the Catholic church.”

HUH? That’s the problem. People are so used to bashing it they don’t even know they’re doing it. Catholics don’t generally do not get into the victim game. It’s petty and beside the point of why we are here but sometimes the prejudice is too blatant.

Catholics started the 30yr war in Europe? And did the Jewish people start the ME war? I suppose Catholic Ireland was to blame for their 800yr war where millions of Catholics were slaughtered. The Armenians for sure were to blame for their genocide, right? It’s telling that the Puritan’s, who were supportive of the slaughtering of Catholics in Britain ended up being next in line, hence their immigration. Maybe Catholics are just supposed to lay down and take it?

Catholics took America from the native population? I suppose the hanging of Priests in New England and New York, the burning of Catholic Churches and orphanages with countless inhabitants inside, no Irish need apply, pograms, etc, didn’t happen? Violence against Catholics here continued well into to the 20th Century. A priest was executed in Alabama as recent as the 20s. The KKK burned down a Catholic Church in the 60s and so on.

So, here it is – the “INQUISION” word. I guess you missed the 1994 BBC documentary “The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition” and they’re certainly no lovers of the Catholic religion. It is strange to witness the passion with which some secularists rail against the misdeeds of the Crusaders and Inquisitors more than 500 years ago where the number sentenced to death by the Spanish Inquisition was less than 10,000. These figures are tragic, but even so, they are minuscule compared with the death tolls produced by the atheist despotism’s of the 20th century. In the name of creating their version of a religion-free utopia, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, and Mao Zedong produced the kind of mass slaughter that no Inquisitor could possibly match. Collectively these atheist tyrants murdered more than 100 million people. And that’s called post-enlightenment today and the Inquisition the Dark Ages? All religions put together haven’t managed to kill that many people. It’s time to abandon the mindlessly repeated mantra that the Catholics stink because of the INQUISION. You do know that there was more than one, right? And just in case the Salem Trials crops up (Protestant so-called Inquisition here), there were 25 people murdered. I wonder how many people have died in Texas alone because of Capital Punishment? They had a trial? As did those in the Inquisition. Neither make it right.

BTW, you forgot to mention Pope Pius XII was in collusion with Hitler and that Pope Benedict was a Nazi.

Anyway, strong fair minded Christians, such as Roman Catholics, are the only thing standing between radical liberals and the wrath of Islam. So to those that would happily see the Church done away with, don’t be so anxious to see us go. You won’t like what replaces us.

Feb 14, 2009 - 6:08 pm 57. Annie:

“Of ‘Bad’ and ‘Good’ Anti-Semites”

The Catholic Church, apparently, is so wicked that the Pope is cut less slack than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Feb 14, 2009 - 6:12 pm 58. Oscar the Grump:

Annie, Donna V., Chris,
First of all I love this discussion and I’m glad you’re defending the Church.
However, the Pope apologized for the acts of the Church and its behavior to the Jewish people. You know I’m not making this up. Since then, the two religions have grown closer because of the recognized commonality.

Donna I would love to meet this Priest you brought up. I also met many remarkable Priests when I was employed by the Church. They don’t have to be doctors or anything like that. They deserve respect for who they are. I could call a Priest 24 hours a day over any problem. They were ready to help with anyone’s problems in an instant. Believe me, I don’t know of a single Rabbi I can do that with.

Don The Romans didn’t practice freedom of religion. They strongly regulated everything outside the Temple. This included a bloody massacre 30 years before Christ.

Anne I include with the Inquisition the Spanish and Portugese diasporas of 1492 and 1493. It is impossible to give a count of how many died as a result of them. During the same time line, the Crusaders chopped and slashed their way through Jewish ghettos before they embarked on their voyage. You could say that the First Crusade was financed with Jewish blood. Remember that the BBC is known for its very favorable treatment of Jews and Jewish subjects ie. the Middle East.

You can not equate the Church of the past with that of today. I’ve experienced the difference.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:05 pm 59. Annie:

“Why is the moral bar set very high for Bishop Richard Williamson, but extremely low for the Muslim world?”

The leftist MSM see it as a black-eye on the Catholic Church therefore they attack. It’s also a way to pit religious Jews against practicing Catholics and other religious Christians who support our stance on many issues. I hope we don’t fall for their divisive tactics.

The Catholic Church is one of the last major institutions in the world supporting traditional morality in this secular and relativistic age.

People want to engage in fornication, homosexuality, adultery, contraception, abortion, pornography, etc., and they want everyone else to approve of their “lifestyle choice”.

The Church refuses to do this, so She is attacked. She calls sin, a sin, and the relativists can’t stand it because deep down in their souls they know the Church is right. Get rid of the Church and then we’ll all be happy secularists. Funny how they forget about the elephant in the room – Islam.

These secularists are the same people who bristle at the very notion of labeling a nation “evil” — even if a nation happens to starve its people, threaten holy war, or allow death cults (like Hamas) to open embassies in their capitals. You see it’s all about them and their me, me, me, needs. Are the feminists concerned with women in the Middle East? I just read their site and not a word about the recent beheading of a Muslim woman by her husband in upstate NY so no surprise they won’t mention it here at home. Are homosexuals concerned about the hanging of gays in Iran? How about ongoing slavery and slaughter in the Sudan? Nada.

One could talk forever about the attacks on the Catholic Church. Bill Maher accused Pope Benedict XVI of being a “Nazi” in his youth and heading up a “child-abusing religious cult” — or more precisely, “the Bear Stearns of organized pedophilia.” Meat for the mass’s who eat it up and carry his water like useful idiots all over the net.

Then there’s the Jerry Springer opera which played for two nights at Carnegie Hall depicting Jesus as an effeminate gay-like character who walks around in a diaper and is hailed as a “hypocrite son of the fascist tyrant on high.” The Virgin Mary is introduced as a woman “raped by an angel,” and Eve fondles Jesus’ genitals.

Bearded guys dressed as nuns are regularly in gay parades. In painting and sculpture the bashing of Christian symbols is so mainstream that it ’s barely noticed. Attacks on the Virgin Mary include Mary coming out of a vagina, Mary encased in a condom, Mary pierced with a phallic pipe, Mary as a bare-breasted Jesus figure presiding at the Last Supper and an Annunciation scene with the Archangel Gabriel giving Mary a coat hanger for an abortion. Mary covered in porno with dung at her feet. The Cross dunked in a bucket of urine and so on.

Jesus on the cross in chocolate (”My Sweet Lord”), as a homosexual sex scene, or on the cover of the New Yorker as the Easter Bunny. An ad for Equinox fitness clubs featured young women dressed as nuns sketching a naked man while staring at his crotch. Off-Broadway political screeds by angry gays and feminists lashing out at the church over abortion or gay rights The anti-Catholic play almost writes itself. Just have a gay Jesus or a lesbian Mary have sex with a pope, Judas, or a farm animal, and contract a venereal disease or go to work in an abortion clinic. Nobody in the art world will object. Instead there will be lots of talk about artistic freedom.

Then there’s the De Vinci Code and their FACTUAL portrayal of history. And all the others who thought they’d get in on the moneymaking scheme.

We’ve outlasted much worse. The Catholic Church will still be standing while they’re not even a memory. Revisionist history will just portray us as persecuting minorities. Par for the course.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:23 pm 60. Donna V.:

Annie: both Catholics and Protestants have been known to behave in very un-Christian ways. (I would add that the Catholic Church also founded the university and hospital system in Europe. It’s no accident that most hospitals in America, even today, have a religious affiliation. The one I work for was founded by nuns to deal with an epidemic in the 19th century. And yet, the Church is never credited for the good it performs.) The misdoings of Christians don’t discredit the doctrines of the Christian faith.

In fact, I would say that the incidences of pogroms and persecutions (whether we are talking about Christians persecuting Jews or each other) are especially tragic because they are a betrayal of the essential tenets of Christianity.
The great problem with Islam is that pogroms and persecutions are NOT a betrayal of the faith. They’re not a bug, they’re a feature. Islam’s founder was a warlord who commanded an army and spread the faith via sword. Taliban and al Queda nutcases aren’t bad Muslims, they’re “good” ones, because violence and intolerance are built into Islam.

Feb 14, 2009 - 7:31 pm 61. Anonymous:

The entire article is based on a false dichotomy.

There is no connection between Bishop Williamson and Ahmadinejad except that both are holocaust deniers. The resemblance ends there. Anti-semitism is a universal constant. Study Jewish history if you don’t believe me.

Therefore; no independant variable.

Similarly the accusation that American Jews owe something more to the party of Pat Buchannan than it does to the party of Jimmy Carter is nothing less than libel.

This is the USA and if you want to court votes along ethnic lines you are going to have to get them. How many African-Americans voted for the party of Lincoln this time around? How many Gays? Latinos? Moderate Christian Amishy white folks from central Ohio? (insert minority here)… C’mon get real.

There is probably only one place left on this planet where Jews can feel secure and at peace, the USA.

Bringing up the edgy (and not very funny) Sarah Bernhardt is not even close to arriving at an understanding of the issues. Who cares, she was never that good and tries to push the envelope to keep her failing career in some kind of spotlight.

What happened with Williamson is a rather straightforward matter as the Roman Catholic Church has a heirarchy and leadership. Simple matter of diplomacy and carefully worded statements then everyone goes home happy. What exists in the Muslim world is much more complex.

There is no central heirarchy in either Judaism or Islam. There is actual blood being spilled there. The Mumbai terrorists had never met a Jew before they tortured and killed a young Rabbi and his family. Pure unadulterated raw hate. This happens in many places and between many peoples everywhere on the planet. It is our human spiritual malaria and our task together is to find the cure.

That cure exists here in the USA. It is embedded in the Declaration of Independence;

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Isaiah could not have said it better.

Who are we gonna blame next? The Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Fundies, Gays, Whales, Pierced-Tattoed Idiot Punkers?

You wont find a more pro-Israel American Jew than me. Yet, find in the global bashing of Muslims I often encounter here, a familiar tune.

So anyway how come the Hindus and Buddhists always get a break?

Spindok

Spindok

Feb 15, 2009 - 2:02 pm 62. Lynn:

Islam seems to have been content to occupy about one fourth of the world and expand at a slow pace. Now there seems to be an increase in the push to expand. There is also a tendency for Islam to react in bloody violence if someone questions the teachings of Islam or the behavior of it’s followers or founder.

I think that fear is the main reason because people don’t think they are strong enough fight against the violence and hate filled rhetoric coming from Islam that seems at times, especially now, waiting for a reason to explode.

Feb 15, 2009 - 3:19 pm 63. Annie:

Oscar, yes, rightly Pope John Paul apologized so why bring it up? I mean it wasn’t even pertinent to the topic. Sorry if I misunderstood your use of it as I assumed it was used as a club.

Donna, Yes, there were periods where we didn’t uphold Church Doctrines however it was not as extreme as the revisionists portray.

GW Bush did more for Aides in Africa than any other world leader past or present yet was rarely, if ever, mentioned by the MSM.

“Why is the moral bar set very high for Bishop Richard Williamson, but extremely low for the Muslim world?”

I got off on a tangent in my previous post while attempting to answer this question. Briefly, I would say Double Standards. The MSM follows moral relativism for some and moral absolutes as the standard for others. The criteria for relativism is changeable, subjective and individual. While moral absolutism claims that there are moral principles that are unchangeable, objective, and universal.

Moral Relativism assumes that feelings are the standard for judging morality. Traditional morality says morality is the standard for judging feelings.

It’s not reason, but the abdication of reason that is the source of moral relativism. Relativism is not rational, it is rationalization. It is not the conclusion of a rational argument. It is the rationalization of a prior action. It is the repudiation of the principle that passions must be evaluated by reason and controlled by will. People in our culture are being convinced that this is oppressive and unhealthy and inauthentic. If we embrace the opposite principle, and let passion govern reason, rather than reason govern passion, there is little hope for morality or for civilization.

Moral relativism appeals to no moral law so what will deter a now-tolerant America from turning to a future intolerance against any group it decides to disenfranchise. It is unborn babies today, born babies tomorrow. Respect for the elderly and infirmed today, Euthanasia tomorrow. Homophobes today, perhaps homosexuals tomorrow. In fact, the same absolutism that homosexuals fear because it is not tolerant of their behavior may end up being their only secure protection against intolerance of their persons.

“Everything I have said and done is these last years is relativism, by intuition. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, that all ideologies are mere fictions, the modern relativist infers that everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology, and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable. If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories, and men who claim to be the bearers of an objective immortal truth, then there is nothing more relativistic than fascism.” —Benito Mussolini

Feb 15, 2009 - 3:42 pm 64. Ken Besig:

Since I am Jewish I am reluctant to take what a German writes at face value even though I know that the individual who wrote this had nothing to do with the WWII massacre of my People. Indeed, as a modern German, Mr. Lehming is probably much more knowledgeable and insightful regarding modern European/Eurabian anti Semitism than most Europeans. The reason the Catholic Church is held to a higher standard, and rightly so, is that it has a name and an address, that is, the Pope Benedict who lives in the Vatican. Islam on the other hand has no central focus and each fatwa or leader has no particular identity or address. Even the Iranian madman, Achmadinejad, is only singled out occasionally for his anti Jewish outbursts, and even then he has many Western defenders who will deny, justify, excuse, or simply explain away his more excessive hate expressions.

Feb 16, 2009 - 12:03 am 65. LynnS:

I think that if the leaders of Islam were held to the same standard as the leaders of the Catholic Church it would be a good thing. I also think that if the leaders of the Middle East were held to the same standard as the leaders of Israel that would be a good thing.

I think that there are also many brave Westerners who do not defend, justify, or excuse the hate and often violent expressions of hate toward the Jewish People. Many westerners have also been the target of that same hatred and they are fighting at this moment against it here and overseas with words and with deeds.

I come from German, Irish, French and English ancestors and I take ownership of their words and deeds good and evil. I am a believer in G_d and a believer in Jesus. I am not a believer in Mohammad. I am an infidel.

Feb 16, 2009 - 6:58 am 66. ahad ha'amoratsim:

As a Sarah Palin fan mystelf, I will observe that most of the liberal establishment like Sandra Berhnhardt have no more use for Judaism than they do for Gov. Palin or for Christianity, and that while it is true that I have met liberal Jews who are inordinately fearful of non-mainline Christians, many of them are equally fearful of Orthodox Jews and Orthodox Judaism. It’s not so much a case of Jews mistrusting Christians as it is liberals who are noninally Jewish mistrusting those they perceive as subscribing to a religion other than liberalism.

Feb 16, 2009 - 9:52 am 67. Oscar the Grump:

Annie
You can write whole paragraphs and give only three lines. I’m disappointed in you.

Yes, what you write about is repugnant and an insult to your church. It’s an insult to humanity in general. What’s wrong is wrong.

Feb 16, 2009 - 10:23 am 68. Donna V.:

Islam seems to have been content to occupy about one fourth of the world and expand at a slow pace.

Lynn, Islam wasn’t “content” to stop expanding; it did so because it was stopped by superior military forces. The only reason we aren’t all bowing to Allah today was because they were stopped at the Gates of Vienna and their spread into Europe was halted. And the technologically advanced Christian Europeans colonized the New World, so Islam was unable to get a foothold here or in South America. But being “content” with their little corner of the globe had absolutely nothing to do with it. They stopped expanding when someone else stopped them.

Now they’re expanding again, because the West has weakened both demographically and militarily (in Europe).

Feb 16, 2009 - 4:26 pm 69. view from afar:

On the blood line thing, for the messiah, now that the mother is now accepted for bloodlines, maybe that explains why a Jewish rabbi here in france said on television “It is time we Jews take the Christ back as one of our own. He was (is) Jewish, and we need to look at what the Christ reperesents for our people.” I realize that is a very loaded statement,in so many ways, and for anyone who wants to see the statement, I went to FRANCE5 and looked at the 24 decembre 2007 (maybe 2006), however the question and answer section wasn’t included, and that is where I heard this, it was an interesting show though if you speak French- a muslim, a rabbi and a priest discussing who is/was the is Jesus Christ. It marked me, because as a Christian I believe that when the Jews take back the Christ, it’s all over…but that is what I believe, and I also believe that God’s people are the Jews, and think that something along these thoughts are what Marc Malone was implying (Maybe not?). Mr Malone seems very tongue-in-cheek, when he comments.
It is amazing how religion seems to hold people in a bag that you must adhere to or else…

Now all of you are totally off on the history thing, the Catholic church was held, mafia like, in the hands of very powerful families in the middle ages and had very little to do with God. They also used the Jewish people, as they weren’t Christian, and so were not held to the false anti money themes that still dominate the Catholic church today, so they allowed the Jews to exist only in the capacity of money lenders, and part of the Inquistion was backlash against the poverty created by the loans, plus the wealth that the large families realized was escaping their grasp (outside of the church), which is also the agruements that Hitler used to raise hate against the Jews. The Protestants were protesting the abuses of the Catholic heirarchy, and the lack of actual faith in Jesus Christ and God. The Protestants in Ireland were persacuting the Catholics( See Mr Andrew Ian Dodge’s anti Catholic very 1800 British anti papist attitude), and importing the French Protestants, who had the right to convert, death or exile in very Catholic France(which by the way doesn’t admit this happened) and these same Protestants turned around to torture and mistreat the local Irish Catholics… Oh by the way I am a Catholic,and descended from Irish and French (and Scots espicopalians -spelling) catholics, but I was always taught that Jesus was the one who died on the cross, not the church, and that is the salavation. I basically have become one of those evangilicals, partly because it’s so nice to not have to justify who you are (which gets really funky for me), plus you get to recognize that Jesus is a Jew ( he never claimed any other religion), and you can claim Peter too. ok enough religion stuff!

And, most importantly, as for the thread of the article, I believe it’s fear of muslims, too many too different and too well them, plus there is one person in the Catholic church therefore it is very easy to point a finger at the single person, rather than the less politcally correct group name calling thing.

Finally sorry for the typos, spelling errors and total disrespect of the English language,I’m typing fast and dealing with my children, in our traditonal franglais (french and english)

Feb 17, 2009 - 8:17 am 70. Annie:

Oscar, I’ve already agreed that the Pope was right to apologize. If I thought the Jewish people weren’t badly mistreated at that time why would I have said that…think about it. I’m not into discussing the Inquisition, the Crusades, Galileo, or the priest scandal which are used frequently as red herrings with which to distract or stifle. My beloved Jesus and his Blessed Mother were Jewish as were the Apostles and early Christians. I bash my elder brothers I bash them. That’s all.

The topic was basically asking why the double standard and I was just writing some thoughts down. We are inundated with moral relativists who assume that feelings are the standard for judging morality and they’re growing in number. Take prop 8 and the Mormon Church who voted en masse for it. The relativists literally attacked some of their churches because they felt wronged. They don’t judge with faith and reason which is why people of faith are going to be persecuted in the future. Recently Catholic Charities had to shut down some of their charities because they won’t comply with handing out contraceptives. Soon it will be mandatory to do abortions and the Catholic hospitals will have to shut down or abolish their OB/GYN departments – thousands of them. Currently, the so-called Fairness Doctrine is lurking in the corner because they feel they’re not getting a fair shake despite the fact that the market dictates who we listen to.. Their are two ideologues at work here, one of them judges on feelings, while the other judges on morals. They’re in a stronger position now with Obama in power. It won’t stop.

“Everything I have said and done is these last years is relativism, by intuition. From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, that all ideologies are mere fictions, the modern relativist infers that everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology, and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable. If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories, and men who claim to be the bearers of an objective immortal truth, then there is nothing more relativistic than fascism.” —Benito Mussolini

Feb 17, 2009 - 9:47 pm 71. Annie:

I wrote ideologues in error – it should read ideologies…

Feb 17, 2009 - 9:50 pm 72. Jeffrey Gray:

I like to refer back to Evan Maloney’s “victim pyramid.” The left only cares about Christian anti-Semitism, real or imagined, because they consider Jews higher on the “victim pyramid” than Christians. However, Jews are below Muslims, so are considered less “victim” than Muslims, or even “oppressors” vis a vis Muslims. So, Muslim anti-Semitism is understandable, if not justified.

Mar 6, 2009 - 11:37 am

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