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63 Comments

1. idov:

These talks numb the mind, they go on and on, but I really did think that Abbas had backed off the “refugees” problem. This is a good article.
The number of Jews run out of Arab lands exceeds the number of Arabs who left, most voluntarily, their homes in Israel by a few hundred thousand. Beyond that in terms of monetary damages, the loss to the Jews, including industries and large farm holdings, many businesses,expansive homes and properties, runs into into several billions whereas the Arabs’losses are only a fraction of that. Let them pay the difference in compensation and we can call it square.

The Jews, having then very limited resources, absorbed their refugees and set them on their feet. The Arabs, awash in so much money that they build skyscrapers on top of luxurious skyscrapers just let their people rot in camps living on handouts from the UN, they don’t even support their own.

From JFK through Clinton, no US president had the guts to tell the Arabs straight out that their refugees are not returning into Israel. Bush did that and despite the ill-informed criticism of Obama that he did nothing, that’s the sort of nitty-gritty thing you had to do for meaningful negotiations, not the headline-grabbing but useless tete-a-tetes with Arafat in the White House that Clinton used to stage. In the end all Israel got out of that was a massive terror campaign triggered in no small part because of Clinton pussyfooting around this issue, which Arafat used a pretext to launch his intifada.

Oct 13, 2008 - 1:52 am 2. Palestinian ‘Right of Return’ Is Not ‘Inalienable’ | PoliticsMuch.com:

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Oct 13, 2008 - 2:12 am 3. Dave Surls:

“Palestinian ‘Right of Return’”

They have a right to return to the Arabian peninsula which is the only place on earth Arabic speaking Muslims have any legitimate claim to.

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:56 am 4. Suzanne Pomeranz:

A local Jerusalem Arab (Muslim) friend said to me recently that nothing will EVER come of any “peace talks” since, in his words, “Arabs talk and talk but never do anything. One day others will figure that out, but until then, we’ll just keep talking, drinking coffee and doing nothing.”

By the way, he does NOT support any “Palestinian State” and prefers to stay an Israeli citizen where, as he said, he can work and think freely and take care of his family properly with a good house, good income, good food and excellent health care. He said this was the majority opinion, too… at least among his family, friends and neighbors.

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:21 am 5. SAF:

“Right of Return” is just another way to say “Jews into the Sea.”

Its nice as a strategy since Israel can not accept 5 million returnees, its a guaranteed non-starter. So when peace talks break down then the Palestinians get to say “see the Israelis where never sincere about peace so now we are free to liberate the land by any means.”

The Israelis have been very restrained over the years. I believe if Tel Aviv takes a hit they will have no choice but to take the gloves off.

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:21 am 6. Lynn:

things will change for the West Bank and Gaza with the markets in turmoil. They won’t be the center of attention anymore. It may even turn out the UN will have to drop their pet project for more important projects, starvation in Bangladesh, Darfur, lots of other things to contend with. I have never figured out how people living in what will be their own state are still considered refugees by the UN. More money has been spent on this 60 year old fake problem then has been spent on any other single issue by the UN. Funneling more US money to the very people who danced on 911 and handed out sweets when 3,000 died is more then a little disgusting to me.

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:38 am 7. dave p:

As I recall, war was declared on Israel immediately after Ben Gurion’s announcement of nationhood, and arabs were encouraged via radio to leave Israel so that the Jews could be killed, after which they could return to their homes.

Because five Arab countries declared war and lost, and because they arrogantly presumed they’d win and encouraged Arabs in Israel to leave, this gives the grandchildren who’ve never lived in Israel ‘a right to return’?

Israel ASKED them to stay, to live beside them as brothers. SOME DID STAY. Even now there is a sizable Arab population in Israel.

None of this makes any sense unless you completely rewrite history, which only works in totalitarian states who do not allow their citizens to read the world’s news.

Oct 13, 2008 - 5:16 am 8. Canadian Neighbour:

Let the Palestinians continue to demand “the right of return”, and refuse to agree to a true peace treaty without Israel agreeing to this demand. If they do, they will continue their present subhuman existence till the end of time.This demand is pure madness.
No Israeli Government, no matter how leftist, can ever agree to this demand,and so it is a political impossibility.
Don’t the Palestinians realize that as long as they insist on this demand being agreed to, there will never be a peace agreement? And they will be the ones who will continue to suffer the most. Again the famous words ofthe late Abba Eban ring true: “The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity”

Oct 13, 2008 - 6:39 am 9. Texas Pundit:

There is no right, there will be no peace until the Arab and the Palestinian realize that their bombastic, hotheaded leaders are getting rich off of their gullibility. And maybe not even then.

Oct 13, 2008 - 7:23 am 10. sam in Toronto:

the problem, however, is the fact that the Israeli government is so corrupt and has such a focus on accumulating wealth and power, that I fear even a direct hit on Tel Aviv will not accomplish anything

Oct 13, 2008 - 7:33 am 11. iconoclast:

Giving the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank their own state is like giving a 4 year old a live hand grenade. The only reason those barbaric muslim fools haven’t died out is because the UN protects them from their own disastrous decisions.

The best thing that could happen for everyone would ending all aid to West Bank and Gaza, removing all “peacekeepers”, seal the borders with Israel, and wait for the inevitable to happen. After a few years, the ones left alive MIGHT be civilized enough to join existing countries (Egypt, Jordan, Israel).

Oct 13, 2008 - 9:07 am 12. Robby:

The same people that call Israel an ‘apartheid state’ have no issues with Arab countries that practice true ‘apartheid’ on the Palestinians.

If a Palestinian is born in Lebanon they can expect to spend their entire life in a refugee camp. They will receive an inferior education, not permitted to vote, can not own land, denied most decent jobs, etc. In some cases the Lebanese government has posted military outside of camps to ensure no building materials are allowed in.

If I were an Arab I would be ashamed at the treatment of Palestinians by these countries.

Oct 13, 2008 - 9:26 am 13. BB:

Axiom: The Arabs of former Palestine only have rights.

Oct 13, 2008 - 10:08 am 14. Rastlin:

So far, since 1948, Arabs have been violent.
Even when Israel has been peaceful.

Everyone knows that all arab countries are violent. There is only one way to deal with them.

Kill there leaders, setup a Democracy, and let the arab people decide for themselves.
most real democracies never engage in war with
other democracies.
FACT!

Oct 13, 2008 - 11:18 am 15. Dab Ronx:

>>>The same people that call Israel an ‘apartheid state’ have no issues with Arab countries that practice true ‘apartheid’ on the Palestinians.<<<

Because, in their heart of hearts, they know that Arab countries are not capable of equality. That is a 1st world western value. Israel is capable of such decency, which is why Arabs/Palestinians/etc who are citizens have the right to vote and practice their religion in Israel, while Arab countries, by Muslim majority, cannot allow non-Muslims to have such equal-footing in their countries.

Israel is taken to task because more is expected of a country who has a similar value structure as we have. Arab countries are not, because we accept the fact that they are barbaric, and do not wish to change their ways.

Oct 13, 2008 - 11:46 am 16. lgkick:

It is ironic how zionists are against ‘the right of return’ for the later generations of Palestinians while keep that right to the Jews (it is the basic thesis of Ziionism that later generations of jews have the right to return to the land of their forefathers). Most of todays Israeli jews have no ethnic connection to Israel and for example are more connected to Russia than Israel.

There is no doubt that arab countries are not good examples of equality and human rights. That’s not the issue. If every time we criticize Israel, you remind us of how bad the arabs are, then what’s the difference between them and you? Why are Israelis deserving of billions of dollars in aid if they violate human rights just like their arab cousins? Why the US has to fight its wars and sacrifice all she can for a country that does not even respect her multiple requests to have constructive talks with the Palestinians? And by constructing talks we don’t mean building walls, stealing Palestinian land, and killing their babies, destroying their homes, and using their children and women as human shields. (I can hear you now reminding us that arabs do the same too but then again why are you any better?)

Oct 13, 2008 - 12:51 pm 17. Eric R.:

There is no point trying to negotiate with “people” like the Palestianians who are so sick, so irrational, so filled with instaiable psychotic hatred, and so savage and depraved that they make heroes out of children who blow up other children.

There is simply no negotiating with such savages. The Palestinians have declared this a battle to the death.

Let it be their deaths. One Holocaust for us Jews is enough.

Oct 13, 2008 - 1:10 pm 18. DavidN:

The Arab-Israeli conflict is one of those that is extremely knotty and confused. There are a number of issues contained in it, and practically no one on either side will make an argument and acknowledge every facet of the subject: there’s always something that is inconvenient for their argument, so they must ignore it.

Above, the facet that’s ignored is that the Right of Return exists for Jews who’ve lived in Europe for around twenty centuries, but not for Arabs who’ve been absent from Israel for half of one century. Israel’s defenders know that it doesn’t make them look good to discuss this facet of the argument, so they ignore it. The author above makes the point that you can’t be a third-generation refugee. Most of the Zionists who founded Israel and populated it originally *were* refugees, but not from Israel or Palestine. A similar silliness has been uttered repeatedly by the Jewish-American comedian Larry Miller, who repeatedly has said that the term Palestinian was invented about 50 years ago. Fair enough, until someone points out that the term Israeli is about the same vintage, something he leaves out.

Arabs of course are no better (often considerably worse), and in the above discussion I’ve left out the obvious point that a Right of Return for *both* sides would probably result in an Arab majority, which would then either vote the state out of existence or expel the Jewish population. Neither solution, of course, is acceptable, and someone needs to explain to the Arabs, and especially the Palestinians, that just because you have a good argument doesn’t mean you’re going to get what you want or demand.

Oct 13, 2008 - 1:48 pm 19. Vladw:

What a pleasant pity! No coment to make me mad and rush to oppose! You guys out there give me hope, a commodity I have found in short supply in many years.
Thanks YOU ALL for your clarity and good logic. And may I join the fella quoting the Germans after WW2. Take a trip to “Sudetenland” – Western Bohemia today. Good agricultural land lies barren. Ethnic Germans are excludeded from the Czech Law of Restitution of 1993.Thrown out for ever. No apologies, no nothing.
During the entire 20th cent. entire peoples have been punished for loosing wars. As we “speak”, the Georgians are being driven out of their ancestral homes in Abkhazia and Ossetia. As are the Ingush. And many others. For no good reason.
The Arabs are the ONLY exception in history. Israel is – mirror – also the only country in history to keep a hostile ethnic group and make them their own people’s equals – after besieging them in a defensive war. Why? (Tzipi ought to rethink her “peace talks”, perhaps)

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:06 pm 20. SAF:

The only cure for the current Israeli letting down of their defenses is many Israeli deaths, unfortunately.

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:25 pm 21. David P:

lgkick:

~”Most of todays Israeli jews have no ethnic connection to Israel and for example are more connected to Russia than Israel”

FACT: Almost 1,000,000 Israeli’s expelled with land and belongings confiscated from countries such as, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Yemen none of which are or were ever under Soviet, Russian control.

~”If every time we criticize Israel, you remind us of how bad the arabs are, then what’s the difference between them and you?”

FACT: The “difference” is that Israel is an open, democratic society with a free press, the reason you’re so well “informed” about the most intimate affairs of Israel is because every news agency from every nation, including those that refuse to recognize Israel’s existence are allowed to report stories from inside of Israel, whether true or untrue without government oversight. EVERY other nation in the region the media is tightly controlled, regulated and censored by the government, so that the world Never See’s, Hears or Learns anything these strict & rigid governments don’t want us to know.

~”Why are Israelis deserving of billions of dollars in aid if they violate human rights just like their arab cousins?”

What are you talking about? Cousins, this is a term Arafat used to describe our distant relationship we have to Abraham. It’s rare, even odd to site biblical references when seeking out roots of extended family. Either way, the Jewish side of Abe’s lineage have contributed far more to humanity which would account for the disproportional investment. Finance Jews, we consistently produce, medical, biological, mechanical, technological, artistic, academic breakthroughs, while our “cousins,” less so.

~”Why the US has to fight its wars and sacrifice all she can for a country that does not even respect her multiple requests to have constructive talks with the Palestinians?”

Fight its wars? Iraq/Afgan wars not about Israel, its about the US strategically positioning itself into greater proximity with the global threats it faces. Constructive talks? where demands are made of Israel to release from prison 1000’s of criminals, many violent offenders with Jewish blood on their hands, withdraw to indefensible borders, let in millions of so-called “refugees” who’ve never set foot in Israel, so that the 1/10 of 1% of the middle east which is predominantly Jewish, can be drowned out by creating the 22nd muslim country in the area, while building and preparing an army of 100,000’s of soldiers accompanied by tanks, apc’s, weapons, mines, helicopters, all for the sake of peace and coexistence.

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:27 pm 22. Canadian Neighbour:

Igkick-
The “Palestinians” as they are mistakenly called, are a non-Nation. Never existed. Never. And the way these people choose their “leaders” to lead them, hair will grow on the palm of your hand before there is a Nation called Palestine.You write about “stealing Palestinian land”. What land, pray tell, are you referring to? Hmm?
Although you claim that.. “Israeli Jews have no ethnic connection to Israel”… The Bible which is the Word of GOD gives the Jewish Nation the “Deed” to the Land of Israel.What better claim can ther be? What claim do your beloved “Palestinians” have to the land? Hmmm? Let’s hear your answer.
Finally no American soldier, not one, has ever fought or sacrificed for Israel. Never!
Smarten up, Igkick, it’s a shame you have to demonstrate your ignorance publicly.

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:28 pm 23. cedarford:

dave p:

As I recall, war was declared on Israel immediately after Ben Gurion’s announcement of nationhood, and arabs were encouraged via radio to leave Israel so that the Jews could be killed, after which they could return to their homes.

Because five Arab countries declared war and lost, and because they arrogantly presumed they’d win and encouraged Arabs in Israel to leave, this gives the grandchildren who’ve never lived in Israel ‘a right to return’?

No one believes that Zionist propaganda any more except guillable Americans targeted by Zionist infowar. In Israel itself, it is laughed off as drivel.

1. That the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed is established fact.
2. The Zionist “Radio Broadcast Story” was researched and condemned as a blatant lie by the 60s. The story of how the story was researched and discredited by the British is the focus of Chris Hitchens excellent essay “Broadcast”.
3. 5 Arab armies did not attack at Partition, but five months later when it was clear that mass cleansing was happening and Jews were grabbing lands well outside their Partitioned sectors..The only military with good logistics, Jordan’s Arab Legion, stayed out of it and the Arab multinationals were sent in on what they thought was a multinational rescue mission of Palestinians and under enforcing UN Resolutions
the Israelis disregarded. They found themselves like other militaries thrown together at the last minute on multinational rescue missions – poorly supplied, disorganized, outfought by the locals..(See Somalia, initial UN force in Korea, current Afghan mess of NATO)

4. Israels legal claim that they owe nothing to any Palestinian, legally, since the Palestinians “voluntarily left” their lands, homes, businesses, and bank savings. But that has well been, long been known as a Big Lie. It doesn’t help that while insisting they don’t owe a shekel to the Palestinians they enriched themselves off of, they launched thousands and thousands of lawsuits to reclaim every cent of value of land and property of WWII killed or cleansed Jews.

5. The majority of Jews who left Arab lands did so voluntarily, sacrificing wealth they could not legally take out of the country for voluntary Aliyah. (The Jewish “right of return” under Zionist dogma that the Pal’s “right” just mirrors.)
Few, very few Jews were directly expelled..though they can claim the same sort of “duress” that also caused European colonialists (also uncompensated) to pack up and leave for pennies on the dollar.

Any compensation – which should happen for Palestinians and Jew who left Arab lands involuntarily – given all the international legal precedents Jews have set with successful WWII lawsuits to reclaim value of land and property fleeing Jews left behind – can be done.
Even if it involves telling Pals there is no right of return and Jews cannot get the present value of land in Yemen they were expelled from, not making voluntary Aliyah. Pals will scream about not getting their land back, but then they can elect not to get high 10s to 100s of thousands to millions in cash and face the end of refugee aid surrounded by their now wealthy refugee neighbors…Jews may scream about paying up for land and property they stole fair and square, but the Jews can afford it.

We are only talking a few tens of billions, far less than the refugee aid the Pals have gotten over the years and the sums of money the Jews have gotten from America. Indeed, the US, Saudis, and Euros might gladly pony up part of the money just to get final borders and the Zionists and Pals to finally shut up and enjoy their shitty little countries.
Egypt could “pay” for their part with ceding a little land in the Sinai to expand Gaza enough to be a viable 2nd Pal homeland.

Oct 13, 2008 - 2:43 pm 24. John Argoudelis:

Israel does not want peace, she wants to take over all of the Araba held land to Cairo and East.

Greed is Israel game.

Duse the critical economy conditions of the United States, I totally agree that Israel and the rest of the welfare countries we give to cut our donations by half so we can taake care of our problems

Oct 13, 2008 - 3:09 pm 25. David P:

cedarford:

I don’t know where you’re revisionist historical lies were created because you site no sources. Diverse experiences, interpretations & understandings are all subject to individual opinion based on facts. The claims you make aren’t derived from facts, rather they are a creation of a fictitious history which has been crafted like a modern folktale embellished as truth and served to unknowing masses who refuse to examine anything beyond what they’re broadcast.

Oct 13, 2008 - 3:49 pm 26. Judy, NYC:

cedarford: what a jackass you are. the instant i read “zionist”, i know it’s going to be a jew hater. and, it is always the case. when you read their diatribes, their ignorance and stupidity is glaring. you are an idiot if you do not know that isreal, (”a shitty country”, according to you) is the world leader in technology. without isreal, moron, you would not even have a cell phone. the sciences are so developed in isreal and its medical advancements so respected that astonishing new discoveries appear in medical journals continually, throughout the world. despite your uneducated assessment, we can be sure the arabs and “persians” will still owe middle eastern jews a couple of billion dollars and 32 cents. no isreali stole any land. all lands were bought and paid for. the arabs i am sure would love to get back the crap desert they sold that isreal turned into a modern world. the isrealis hold land as defense against the constant aggression of these brainless miscreants with their 13th century mentality. indeed, isreal, who won the sinai, gave back the sinai in hopes of gaining peace. i hope that one day, when your head is blown off by an islamic bomb, the isrealis will be the only ones who can reattach it – and they refuse.

Oct 13, 2008 - 3:56 pm 27. tanstaafl:

Moreover, there is no such thing as a third-generation refugee.

Some of (much of) this “right of return” stuff reminds me of an argument of paying reparations to descendents of slaves in America today.

Someday…somewhere…someone…has to cry bullsh!t.

Brain dead “revolutionaries” stand in the way of one tiny successful state (Israel) standing within their midst. They can’t seem to tolerate an entity that demonstrates their own worthlessness.

Surprise.

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:24 pm 28. dmh0667-LGF:

For all the Phakestinian-supporting baboons here, I’d like them to answer these questions: If the ‘Palestinians’ are so “tied” to the land that Israel occupies, then why don’t they use a name more reminescent of the Arab language and culture? Why do they insist on calling themselves after either a Britsh colony (Palestine), a Roman province (Palestina), or a completely non-Arabic people (the Philistines)? Is it because they have no links to this or any other region outside of Arabia and just seek to steal other peoples’ history, as they’ve done with Jews, Egyptian Copts, Berbers, Chaldeans, Armenians, Kurds, etc.?

If not the above, then how about this: How many times is Jerusalem specifically mentioned in Jewish texts? How many time in the Koran?

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:27 pm 29. Dave Surls:

“Any compensation – which should happen for Palestinians…”

If the Muslim invaders want to pay reparations in compensation for the 1400 year occupation of lands that rightfully belong to Jews/Christians, I have no objections.

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:30 pm 30. fred:

The only cease-fire agreement that Muslims are permitted to agree to with kafirs is hudna. Arafat had repeatedly referred to this in his Arab speeches, away from the Western journalists. Muhammad had his sock puppet deity pronounce this injunction upon the Ummah. The reason why the Muslim Brotherhood had Anwar Sadat murdered was because he had violated this injunction from the Qur’an and Sharia Law.

There can be no peace between us kafirs and the Ummah. We had best resign ourselves to the fact of jihad – perpetual war to convert, subdue (Dhimma), or kill us. And then further resolve to defeat them by all necessary means.

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:34 pm 31. John Argoudelis:

These are no revisioniost articles, but fact.

you can make faux accusations, but facts prove that israel wants all the land between the Persion Gulf to and including Syria to Cairo ans half of Egypt.

This plan was drawn up by Herzog the father of Zionism

spells trouble

Oct 13, 2008 - 4:34 pm 32. Dave Surls:

“There can be no peace between us kafirs and the Ummah.”

I think that’s overly pessimistic. We can have peace after we’ve avenged the Americans murdered by Pal terrorists, smashed the Pals into red ruin, and driven the survivors off the lands that don’t belong to them.

That’s what we did to the Japanese and we’ve had peace ever since.

Oct 13, 2008 - 5:19 pm 33. fred:

Judy,

C-fudd can’t help himself. Best to lower your expectations of his pronouncements about Jews and Israel. He is incapable of shame.

Oct 13, 2008 - 5:48 pm 34. Markus:

Israel has the same right, nay obligation, to reject “right of return” as any other country that wants to survive would do. Yet, she stands on unstable ground if she argues this from a “moral” position. Palestinians lost the right of return because their Arab compatriots stupidly started a war that they eventually lost, and because in that conflict lots of Palestinians stupidly left their homes instead of standing their ground. Emphasis on the word STUPID, because if the Arabs HAD accepted the original partition plan, or the Arabs hadn’t LEFT after the war began, then Arab population of the new Jewish state in all likelihood would have overwhelmed the Jewish population by now, and the state of Israel would likely have joined the new Arab state that would have been created in (a much larger) West Bank and Gaza, to form a single, non-Zionist entity.

The point is, though, that every serious Isreali leader who genuinely want a peace pact with a Palestinians recognizes that some accomodation of the Palestinian position is necessary. And everyone knows what such an agreement would entail: cold hard cash for families that can produce titles to old land in Israel proper, and letting several thousand elderly Arabs settle there as well.

Oct 13, 2008 - 6:10 pm 35. Markus:

Cedarford — here is one thing that I’ve never understood about anti-Semites, why are most of you also anti-Zionists? You want them to be a normal people living in their own country, rather than wandering the world like super-intelligent gypsies, stirring up trouble everywhere? Then why don’t you support their efforts to secure their own land and create a normal country of their own?

Oct 13, 2008 - 6:17 pm 36. fred:

Markus,

Because he wants them exterminated, that’s why. No other logical conclusion seems to fit the contradictions that abound.

The “right of return” is a transparent demand that Israel commit national suicide and save the Arabs the chore of trying to bust in the door past the IDF.

With Islam, there is no way out, whether you are a Muslim who wants to leave Islam or you are a people who were conquered by the Muslims and wish to leave the Ummah. You have to fight for your freedom. They aren’t going to let you have it without a fight.

Oct 13, 2008 - 6:49 pm 37. Battlecat:

How about we “right of return” them to Arabia?

Oct 13, 2008 - 7:21 pm 38. jw:

(Reply to 31: John Argoudelis) What Herzog are you referring to? Israel has never claimed land from the Persian Gulf to part of Egypt. It gave Egypt the whole of the Sinai desert which it had conquered in the peace agreement with Anwar Sadat.
You are simply making up stories.

Oct 13, 2008 - 7:44 pm 39. Ted Lawrence:

On the “right of return” one thing that is overlooked was the Israel was created by the UN specifically to create a homeland for Jews. Enough lived in the Middle East to justify creating the country, but that country was also charged with the mission of taking some responsibility for the fate of Jews throughout the world. On top of everything else, to allow the Arab right of return abrogates that concept and changes the whole purpose of the state of Israel.

Oct 13, 2008 - 11:38 pm 40. Arabian:

It seems after the Akko (acre) incedints …..right of return is frighting.
especially in a country that practices apartheid .

The legitemicy of the right of return of Palestenians are more legitimate than the right to return after thousands of years.

Oct 14, 2008 - 2:58 am 41. Marc Malone:

Too lazy to look it up, but I believe revelations foretells the re-establishment of a Jewish State, and that it would be called… Israel. It also states that God, Himself, gave them the land. Whether you acccept that or not, it is, in effect, a written deed of land. Even in Roman times, Palestinia was the land of the Jews. The “palestinians” have no such deed. They were just squatters. The ones who stayed are mightily glad they did… and so are their progeny. They are the most free of the Arab peoples, and unsurprisingly, mostly Christian.

Oct 14, 2008 - 3:36 am 42. karl berger:

the displacement of the palestinians, though sad, is a historic fact. the author rightly points to world war II and to the fact that many millions of germans were ethnically cleanesed from their ancient homelands. that is the price populations have to pay for being on the losing side of a war (i am austrian, so part of the losers in this case). as jerry muller noted in foreign affairs march/april 2008 in his article: “Us and Them, The Enduring Power of Ethnic Nationalism” virtually all boarders in europe have been created by ethnic nationalism and the ethnic cleasning that ensued. its mindboggling to see international organisations maintaining the claim of right of return for palestinians. they better give up this claim or otherwise extend it to millions of germans and their ficticious right ot return to their “homelands” in poland/east prussia.

Oct 14, 2008 - 5:25 am 43. I'm No Fun:

Religious proponents of Israel do not do their side any favors in their reasoning.

Jews do not have the right to go to Israel and Israel is NOT a valid country because of “the word of god” or because some unprovable text says so. Who’s to say which “holy” book is more right than another? Making claims based upon religion is backward thinking and the wrong argument to make. “Oh yeah? MY god says this!” “Yeah? MY god says that!” Puh-leaze. Fine for creating the base of a moral code to live by as long as you don’t impose it on others, but horrible for drawing up the borders of countries.

Israel is a valid country because Britain surrendered control of their portion of the Palestine Mandate in the 1940’s, the western 30% that they won from the Ottomans (the other 70%, the eastern part, went to Transjordan in the 1920’s) to the UN for them to vote upon on its division. That 30% got split between a Jewish area and an Arab area. The Jews said, “Fine,” formed Israel, and went about building a country. The Arabs said, “No, we want it all,” and gambled on getting the whole thing. They lost, and have been unable to get over their losing, continuing to be a bunch of whiny losers ever since, even to the point of trying to claim, “Well, we didn’t really attack Israel. THEY started it. Neener, neener, neener!” The only people buying that line are Arabs who don’t like to be thought of as losers and anti-Semites looking for any straw to grasp to claim the illegitimacy of a Jewish state.

Jews have a right of return because Israel is their country, and they can do as they please with it. Palestinians do not, because they have declined to form a country, and, as such, have no way of invoking such a right.

Don’t bother making the argument, “Well, the Palestinians didn’t get to vote on what happened.” Absolutely right. The Jews didn’t get to vote either. That’s because neither of them had the right to vote in an area whose fate wasn’t up for them to decide. The UN got it from Britain, who won it from the Ottomans, who won it from the Mamalukes, who won it from I don’t give a crap because it was 500 years ago.

That’s the way the world works. Land changes hands, whether by war or other means. There was no country of East Timor 20 years ago. Now there is, and it has a right to remain. There was no Pakistan until 1947. Now there is, and it has a right to remain. If the Palestinians would have formed their country in 1948, in 1967, in 2000, they would have a country to do with as they please.

Vladw has some examples of populations that shift when wars are lost. It is racist to treat Arab populations any differently, and it is self-loathing of Palestinians to ask to be treated differently.

Once the Palestinians and their supporters can own up to their loserdom, admit their mistakes, clean up the garbage they’ve chosen to run Gaza and form a country, I’ll be more then willing to stop call them losers – because at that point, they’ll no longer be losers. They’ll be a people who finally have chosen to learn from their errors, and will be taking their first steps to move forward. Until then? Losers.

Oct 14, 2008 - 6:13 am 44. lgkick:

The anger and frustration of the Pro-Israelis on this forum is an evidence to the fact that the conditions are changing in the US. The people who back Israel no matter what she does are losing the intellectual battle with the people who criticize her horrendous actions against a defenseless population. More and more people are waking up and the brain-washing of the Israel lobby is less effective especially on the younger generation. Any criticism of Israel is labeled by Anti-Semitism. As if it is Anti-Semitic to object to murder of children, bombing civilian areas, setting up checkpoints, and extending settlements in other people’s lands. America will be condemned in history for supporting such a dreadful regime. It is the duty of every patriotic American (whose loyalty first and foremost lies with the US and not a foreign entity) to question Israel for what she does. If they are getting our billions of dollars while we suffer at home, then they should explain how they are spending the money.

One of the most important objections of Muslim extremists against the US is the US support for Israel (a useless ‘ally’ that is on the receiving side all the time). So in one sense the Afghanistan/Iraq war is also Israel’s war too. What has Israel done for the US in these wars? Nothing! Even if Israeli jews can’t fight in the army, how about the american jews? How many jewish soldiers have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan for the country that is in trouble mainly because of supporting them? You will find many American jews who go to Israel to fight the Arabs but very few who fight the America’s war. Why?

Oct 14, 2008 - 6:46 am 45. Danny:

lgkick the frustration is with people who just repeat lies over and over.

“brain-washing” – really when, where? Name one single person who has materially suffered because of criticising Israel. Mearshiemer and Walt managed to make millions and a name by publishing a sub-undergrad scrape off google. Said was a prof at an Ivy League and made millions criticising Israel ditto Chomsky and others. Contrast this with people who are critical of Iran for instance – some were recently arrested in Iran for “spying”. The Iranian intelligence in the 80s went around killing people who complained about the regime and if you are a journalist/academic forget about entering the country if you are even vaguely critical.

Bombing civilian areas, when did that happen? I am aware of areas being used by Hizbollah and Hamas that had civilians in them but a civilian area that Israel decided to bomb for the hell of it? Name one. On the other hand exactly one out of the 4,000 Hizbollah missiles hitting a military target. 2 out of the 5,000 Palestinian qassams hit military targets since the pullout in 2005. Remind me again about who targets civilians?

Israel got the speech where Khruchev criticized Stalin, putting the nail in that man’s reputation and a major coup for the US. Got multiple instances of the latest Soviet gear for close examination by the US, beta-tested US weapons and tactics. It is SOLELY due to Israel that when you pushed back Sadam in 1991 he didn’t have nukes. etc etc etc. Care to name any other “allies” that did the same? France? Saudi Arabia?

your last paragraph is simply nonsense. Not a single suicide bomber against the US has ever used US support for Israel as primary reason. Not once. Also care to back up the claim that US Jews don’t fight in the US military? Got stats to show that relative to others in their socioeconomic class and percentage of the population that Jews are underrepresented? I seem to remember someone else made that exact same claim about Jews in Germany, his name began with H and was also just as wrong. Maybe NOW you can see why people would call you an anti-semite?

Oct 14, 2008 - 7:51 am 46. Danny:

Cedarford.

“That the Palestinians were ethnically cleansed is established fact” – actually no it isn’t. The only detailed study showed most Palestinians ran away from a war just like other war refugees. Most did not even see an Israeli soldier.

“The Zionist “Radio Broadcast Story” was researched and condemned as a blatant lie by the 60s. The story of how the story was researched and discredited by the British is the focus of Chris Hitchens excellent essay “Broadcast”.” – again there were broadcasts and there is simply no doubt that women and children were told to move and that’s MOST of your refugees right there. The only thing that is true is that is not a SOLE cause.

“5 Arab armies did not attack at Partition, but five months later when it was clear that mass cleansing was happening and Jews were grabbing lands well outside their Partitioned sectors.” – nope, 2 arab armies attacked at partition – the ALA and the Mufti’s militia. Remember the Hagannah was little more than a militia too. Israel did not conquer any land outside partition when the other arabs invaded. The only operations that were carried out prior to 14 May 1948 outside partition were those made to open the road to Jerusalem which was being strangled despite not being allocated to Arabs.

“The only military with good logistics, Jordan’s Arab Legion, stayed out of it and the Arab multinationals were sent in on what they thought was a multinational rescue mission of Palestinians and under enforcing UN Resolutions the Israelis disregarded.” – Most of Israel’s casualties in the 1948 War – around 3% of the population or equivalent to the US having6 million casualties in WW2 – were lost fighting the Jordanian Arab Legion which conquered East Jerusalem which was not allocated to the Arabs, and they “ethnically cleansed” all the Jews who had lived there for centuries. What UN resolutions? What utter crap.

“They found themselves like other militaries thrown together at the last minute on multinational rescue missions – poorly supplied, disorganized, outfought by the locals..(See Somalia, initial UN force in Korea, current Afghan mess of NATO)” – that is just laughable. A “rescue” mission? There is copious evidence that the armies invaded to conquer and annex land. Even if there wasn’t you can look at the three instances where they did conquer land – they annexed it, in Gaza, in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and in the North where the Syrians conquered a few kibutzim. Note also that three of the forces – the Iraqi, Egyptian and Jordanian – were armed, financed and trained by the British who were one of the superpowers at the time. In no way were they “thrown together”.

“Israels legal claim that they owe nothing to any Palestinian, legally, since the Palestinians “voluntarily left” their lands, homes, businesses, and bank savings. But that has well been, long been known as a Big Lie.” – Actually what the Israelis have said is that the Arabs chose war and lost, that the losses to Arab Palestinians are dwarfed by those of Arab Jews who actually were “ethnically cleansed” in the decade following 1948 and notwithstanding that, Israel has offered compensation on numerous occasions.

“It doesn’t help that while insisting they don’t owe a shekel to the Palestinians they enriched themselves off of, they launched thousands and thousands of lawsuits to reclaim every cent of value of land and property of WWII killed or cleansed Jews.” – Must have missed the part of history where the Jews launched a war to crush the Germans at birth or where 5 Jewish armies invaded Germany. That’s maybe why I don’t think the “Naqba” and Holocaust are comparable.

“The majority of Jews who left Arab lands did so voluntarily, sacrificing wealth they could not legally take out of the country for voluntary Aliyah. (The Jewish “right of return” under Zionist dogma that the Pal’s “right” just mirrors.)” – what utter, utter, utter crap. So Iraqi Jews just left to leave in tents, nothing to do with anti-semitic laws being passed, attacks on Jews, execution of prominent Jews? Wierd that you are manage to believe that the Palestinians MUST have been cleansed but Jews who actually had lived in Arab countries for centuries just upped and left.

“Few, very few Jews were directly expelled..though they can claim the same sort of “duress” that also caused European colonialists (also uncompensated) to pack up and leave for pennies on the dollar.” – see above.

“Any compensation – which should happen for Palestinians and Jew who left Arab lands involuntarily – given all the international legal precedents Jews have set with successful WWII lawsuits to reclaim value of land and property fleeing Jews left behind – can be done.” – Look forward to seeing that happen. Look forward to the Palestinians having to prove in a court of law that they were “involuntarily forced out”. Anyone want to take bets on that never happening?

“Even if it involves telling Pals there is no right of return and Jews cannot get the present value of land in Yemen they were expelled from, not making voluntary Aliyah. Pals will scream about not getting their land back, but then they can elect not to get high 10s to 100s of thousands to millions in cash and face the end of refugee aid surrounded by their now wealthy refugee neighbors…Jews may scream about paying up for land and property they stole fair and square, but the Jews can afford it.” – yes because Jews control the world’s financial system, right?

“We are only talking a few tens of billions, far less than the refugee aid the Pals have gotten over the years and the sums of money the Jews have gotten from America. Indeed, the US, Saudis, and Euros might gladly pony up part of the money just to get final borders and the Zionists and Pals to finally shut up and enjoy their shitty little countries.
Egypt could “pay” for their part with ceding a little land in the Sinai to expand Gaza enough to be a viable 2nd Pal homeland.” – I believe Israelis enjoy their shitty little country quite alot. The problem with your suggestion is that it has been made – by Barak in 2000 at Camp David and we all know who that turned out.

Again, a new world record, nearly every single sentence a lie. One has to wonder why you find Israel so perfect that feel you have to fabricate to criticise it. I am sure most Israelis would take your resorting to lying as a compliment. Ditto lgkick.

Oct 14, 2008 - 8:18 am 47. David P:

Igkick

You’ve crafted a coordinated series of LIES with a patterned theme of condemnation, intolerance and misinformation aimed at everything Jewish, Israeli or Zionist.

Your attacks are neither historic, factual, nor original, and are meant to inspire & incite unbridled hatred & warfare against the Jewish state.

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it…” -Joseph Goebbels

Oct 14, 2008 - 8:38 am 48. iconoclast:

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it…” -Joseph Goebbels

Or was that Hussein Obama who said that??

Oh no, Hussein said “tell so many lies, no one can keep up.”

Anyway, Israel will soon be back on its own when vote fraud grants Hussein the election. Will that mean more money to Hussein supporters Hamas, Fatah, and Hezbollah? Certainly all the muslims should expect to be paid back for all their donations to The Chosen One.

Oct 14, 2008 - 12:54 pm 49. swift boater:

Once the Messiah takes over the Israelis are toast. Right down the river. And American Jewry will have large part of that blood on their hands.

The only question will be if the Israeli gov’t will use the Samson option. What will that do to the price of gas?

Oct 14, 2008 - 4:27 pm 50. fred:

American secular Jews play a huge role in Obama’s and the Left’s throwing Israel under the bus. They are NOT Jews. They don’t practice their faith; their faith is in socialism, and Obama inspires them. They feel sorry for the Paleosimians, and so they vote for people who would let Satan’s devils into Israel to cause murder, mayhem, and the end of the Jewish State.

Oct 14, 2008 - 4:54 pm 51. kate b:

I do feel sorry for ordinary, peace loving Palestinians who have been given a false identity and believe it, that’s the sad part. If they’ve been there forever then why do they use the shekel (the ancient Israel currency), why don’t they speak “Palestinian” as Jews speak Ivrit? Why can’t anyone remember their great part played in the Qur’an (this is a relgious war) or even mentioned in it, or Jerusalem for that matter?…..because it’s all fiction.

It should have been blair the Christian to stop this burlesque, but he didn’t know enough, however we do have Brown who has no excuse with his Prestbytarian background, he can stop it, great power comes with great responsibility – however I doubt he’ll do anything either.

Thank goodness it’s sukkot, and some people are confident in its message. Chag sameyach!

Oct 15, 2008 - 2:57 am 52. Guy de La Fald:

Judging from the comments on this issue, it seems Americans have lost the understanding that a state guided by a rule of law is preferable to one that is not. The writings here show mob psychology at its worst, much like another group of people that tramped around in the 30’s and 40’s. Are you headed this way too? The hate filled comments, outright lies and self serving opinions aimed at both sides of the conflict for no other reason other than to inflame the problem, is one major reason this “problem” has festered as long as it has. But what do I know? I grew up as an American in that part of the world, lived on both sides, and speak the languages (my heritage is Irish) and can see and hear the legimate grievences of both sides. Let’s face it people, Israel has the right to exist because it had bigger and better guns andfought and won, the Arabs native to this part of the world have a right to fight for their “right of return” because they are willing to do so and have guns. Anyone see the problem here? Basically there is no fixing this from the outside.

Oct 15, 2008 - 6:35 am 53. lgkick:

Danny,

Do you want examples of people who suffered for criticizing Israel? Have you heard of Finkelstein whose tenure was denied for basically his criticism of Israel? Most of the people in the academia who have managed to survive even though they criticize Israel is not because the lobby has not tried to screw them but because they have reached a certain stage in their academic life that the lobby can’t just destroy them. This is not the case with the younger professors who are fighting for their tenure. Any criticism of Israel on their part means no tenure. This is demonstrated by numerous examples and I invite you to do an honest research yourself.

The jews and arabs have many things in common: they are both semitic people (at least the original arabs and jews are), they have lived in close proximity for thousands of years, their respective religions share many similarities, etc. There is one more thing they share: the word ‘hell’ translates to ‘jahannam’ in both arabic and hebrew. And they both have created a jahannam on earth for themselves and their children for many years to come. The best we can do as americans is to stay out of their jahannam and let them take care of their own business on their own.

Oct 15, 2008 - 7:46 am 54. MyJoy18:

Attention Palestinian refugees and their supporters:

I am willing to push the Israeli government to withdraw every outpost and settlement from the West Bank [and Gaza] and to pay fair compensation to those who chose to leave back in 1947, in exchange for peace with Israel’s neighbours including the right to secure borders and freedom from attack.

Peace with Israel’s neighbours includes the dismantling of the refugee camps and granting the Palestinian refugees full citizenship rights of the country they choose to reside outside of Israel. Regional trade agreements in combination with peace, will ensure that employment opportunities exist for all citizens.

Now can you live with a peace that gives up the so-called ‘right of return’ in exchange for compensation and *includes* Israel?

It is a simple question.

Oct 15, 2008 - 9:53 pm 55. lgkick:

MyJoy18,

I don’t think you have the influence to accomplish anything when even previous US presidents are under fire by the attack dogs of the Israel lobby for stating the obvious facts about the Israel policy in the occupied territories. The right of return is only the smallest problem in this conflict. Let’s start with dismantling illegal settlements and putting a stop to assassinations and bombardment of civilian areas first.

Oct 16, 2008 - 6:44 am 56. Danny:

lgkick, Finkelstein is a notorious fraud. He has made zero contribution to his field and all his papers are published in PLO mouthpiece Journal of Palestine Studies and are glorified book reviews. He is a sign of how you CAN make a career out of Israel-hatred in the US despite having no ability and being too lazy to do any actual research.

My specialty is Middle East Studies and being anti-Israel is absolutely no barrier whatsoever. Try doing studies on Syria that dont follow the Assad line or research on Turkey whilst being the tiniest uncomplimentary of Ataturk or mentioning Armenians… The Iranian intelligence were KILLING people who were [verbally] attacking the Islamic Republic in the 80s.

PS you mean Jannah in arabic and Gan Iden in hebrew, but for the US to not be involved – such as by giving most of the funds to the UNWRA to perpetuate the refugee problem – one cannot argue with.

Oct 16, 2008 - 7:49 am 57. Markus:

MyJoy18,

what you sketched IS what any two-state solution would look like, with some adjustments for large settlement blocs that are too big to dismantle. I don’t know that a majority of Israelis would sign off on it now, but I think a majority would under the right circumstances. Those circumstances include the end of institutional Palestinian rejectionism (Hamas) and an indication that Fatah and others willing to sign off on such a deal have the popular support among Palestinians necessary to make such a concession binding on whoever comes to power in the state.

lgstick, Olmert basically said the same thing that MyJoy18 said. Israel is a Jewish democracy, and there are liberals, moderates and right-wingers in Israel. Quiet a few Israelis are opposed to any deal, and (without being openly honest about it) think that if settlement activity continues eventually a Palestinian state will be off the table and the key West Bank population blocs can be chopped off and given to Jordan. The point is, the influence of these Zionist rejectionists grows in proportion to the rise in influence of Palestinian rejectionists.

Palestinians seem to think if they explicitely rejected “right of return” then Israel would then take a more hardline approach. I don’t think that is the case. At any rate, the Palestinian should at least TRY such an approach. I think that an explicit declaration would greatly weaken Jewish support and tolerance of the settlers and their apologists.

Oct 16, 2008 - 2:24 pm 58. Joe Banna:

I guess for this idiotic topic, it would need to be placed in context. Imagine, if Mexico, for some historical reason, decides to invade California. They would then force everyone in California to live in refugee camps, while Mexicans took over our homes. Some Californians would actually live within sight of their homes. Would this be fair? Would resistance to occupation be considered terrorism? I think a lot of rednecks, like the ones I see on this board, think so.

Oct 17, 2008 - 2:55 pm 59. Guy de La Fald:

Joe Banna, If I may add to your example? The Mexican attack on California was “authorized” by Cananda as the immigration of European Jews from Europe to what is now Israel was “authorized” by England (the Balfour Declaration.)

Oct 18, 2008 - 7:38 am 60. David P:

Joe & Guy,
Please Review Middle East History during the period for which your speculating on, there are obvious holes in your comprehension of the social, economic, population, political and even technological shifts occurring throughout the ‘entire region’ at that time. Perhaps what you’ll both find most enlightening is how invalid your applied Mexico, California, Canada conceptual metaphors become. Rather then to reason with ignorance, I urge you both to read -Fromkins “A Peace to End All Peace,” an impartial, accurate assessment of the period & region based on fact, rather then agenda laced ideology that clog our universities & media today.

Oct 18, 2008 - 10:22 am 61. Danny:

Joe, Tiny little problem with your analogy. The Arabs attacked the Jews in 1947-1948 – and lost.

Oct 21, 2008 - 11:06 am 62. Verschiedenes zum Konflikt « Medien BackSpin:

[...] Palästinensischer „Return-Druckknopf“. Das „Recht auf Rückkehr“ ist nicht unverzichtbar. [...]

Oct 22, 2008 - 5:38 am 63. boazhorribilis:

49. swift boater:

So Israelis should commit suicide so that swift boater can fill up. Cheaply!

Nov 23, 2008 - 9:09 am

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