Pajamas Media

Playing Partisan Politics with Terrorists and Torture

President Obama won't stop playing hardball politics - even when it endangers national security. (Also see Roger L. Simon: "Tortured by Pelosi.")

April 24, 2009 - by Clarice Feldman

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The president has said he’d leave the question of whether the lawyers should be prosecuted to Attorney General Eric Holder, who, as fate would have it, expressed a similar view to the one running throughout the interrogation memos in 2002:

One of the things we clearly want to do with these prisoners is to have an ability to interrogate them and find out what their future plans might be, where other cells are located; under the Geneva Convention that you are really limited in the amount of information that you can elicit from people

It seems to me that given the way in which they have conducted themselves, however, that they are not, in fact, people entitled to the protection of the Geneva Convention. They are not prisoners of war. If, for instance, Mohamed Atta had survived the attack on the World Trade Center, would we now be calling him a prisoner of war? I think not. Should Zacarias Moussaoui be called a prisoner of war? Again, I think not.

But pawning the issue of prosecuting Bush-era attorneys off to Holder is the least of his problems. The Democratic Congress, still smarting from the 2000 election and the party’s belief that the contest was stolen, hopes to pour yet more venom into the inter-party fight with a series of hearings designed to demonize the man who won that election and those who worked for him.

The blood is in the water and Congressman Pete Hoekstra lets us know he’s fully armed and up to the fight:

It was not necessary to release details of the enhanced interrogation techniques, because members of Congress from both parties have been fully aware of them since the program began in 2002. We believed it was something that had to be done in the aftermath of the 9/11 terrorist attacks to keep our nation safe. After many long and contentious debates, Congress repeatedly approved and funded this program on a bipartisan basis in both Republican and Democratic Congresses.

Members of Congress calling for an investigation of the enhanced interrogation program should remember that such an investigation can’t be a selective review of information, or solely focus on the lawyers who wrote the memos, or the low-level employees who carried out this program. I have asked Mr. Blair to provide me with a list of the dates, locations and names of all members of Congress who attended briefings on enhanced interrogation techniques.

He has, it seems, signaled such a battle will be a war of mutually assured destruction.

Former CIA Director Porter Goss has been unreservedly critical of Obama’s decision:

Porter Goss, former CIA director and past chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, blasted the Obama administration for releasing Justice Department memos on harsh interrogation techniques. “For the first time in my experience we’ve crossed the red line of properly protecting our national security in order to gain partisan political advantage,” Goss said in an interview.

Goss, a former CIA operative, has made few public comments since leaving his post as DCI in September 2006. In December 2007, he told a Washington Post reporter that members of Congress had been fully briefed on the CIA’s special interrogation program. “Among those being briefed, there was a pretty full understanding of what the CIA was doing,” Goss told the Post. “And the reaction in the room was not just approval, but encouragement.”

I agree fully with Professor Jacobson:

There is no ego as large as a Congressional ego. Combine that with a history of bitterness of the 2000 election and personal animosity, and you have the makings of a vendetta by congressional hearing. If not interrogation, then it would be something else.

Obama did not create the profound desire for retribution, but he has unleashed it. And it will consume his presidency. This will be a fight unlike anything any of us have seen in our lifetimes, because it involves the nation’s most emotional moment since Pearl Harbor. The legal battle lines already are being drawn, fund raising plans drawn, and lawyering up is about to begin. And both sides relish the prospect of a battle.

Obama should not underestimate the destructive power of Congress. Barely three months into his term, Obama’s ability to control the agenda is on the cusp. The inimitable Democratic penchant for self-destructive behavior will not be satisfied until Bush has been bashed, even if the ultimate victims are our national security and Obama’s legacy.

The Wall Street Journal also observes that any Congressional investigation will unleash a partisan brawl that will harm the president and the nation.

In the first round of the battle the selective leaking of information shows the administration is dishonest, and this conduct will harm it in the partisan battle it has initiated.

As the White House and Senate committee were selectively leaking classified information harmful to the nation to provide cheap grace for Obama and the weaponry for a new partisan food fight on Capitol Hill , former Vice President Dick Cheney indicated he’d not sit as a piñata to be beat upon by the likes of Levin, Waxman, and Leahy. He pointed out that the one thing the selective releases were leaving out of the picture was the one thing most persuasively in favor of the former officials. The fact is that the techniques worked and saved many lives. An al-Qaeda plot to wreak havoc on Los Angeles as it had earlier on New York was disrupted.

As Marc A. Thiessen, former chief speechwriter for President Bush, reported in the Washington Post:

In releasing highly classified documents on the CIA interrogation program last week, President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists “did not make us safer.” This is patently false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public — in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media.

Consider the Justice Department memo of May 30, 2005. It notes that “the CIA believes ‘the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al-Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.’ … In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques.” The memo continues: “Before the CIA used enhanced techniques … KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, ‘Soon you will find out.’” Once the techniques were applied, “interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al-Qaeda and its affiliates.”

Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques “led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the ‘Second Wave,’ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.” KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that “information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the ‘Second Wave.’” In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.

[Snip]

But just as the memo begins to describe previously undisclosed details of what enhanced interrogations achieved, the page is almost entirely blacked out. The Obama administration released pages of unredacted classified information on the techniques used to question captured terrorist leaders but pulled out its black marker when it came to the details of what those interrogations achieved.

It is clear that an effort is already underway to suggest that the interrogations were unnecessary and achieved little or nothing. Tom Maguire deals with such an effort in the New York Time’s piece, where a quote from FBI Director Robert Mueller to the effect that they didn’t achieve any interruptions of plots is cited in a way to suggest the interrogations were not useful. They were, if you are not being as selective in measuring success as the administration has been in dribbling out the memos:

All that said, Mr. Shane fails to draw an important distinction here and finds a contradiction where none may, in fact, exist:

In an interview with Vanity Fair last year, the F.B.I. director since 2001, Robert S. Mueller III, was asked whether any attacks had been disrupted because of intelligence obtained through the coercive methods. “I don’t believe that has been the case,” Mr. Mueller said. (A spokesman for Mr. Mueller, John Miller, said on Tuesday, “The quote is accurate.”)

That assessment stands in sharp contrast to many assertions by Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who on Fox News on Sunday said of the methods: “They did work. They kept us safe for seven years.”

Four successive C.I.A. directors have made similar claims, and the most recent, Michael V. Hayden, said in January that he believed the methods “got the maximum amount of information” from prisoners, citing specifically Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the chief 9/11 plotter.

The OLC memos make it clear that deterring attacks was the lesser benefit of the enhanced interrogation program. The real value was in learning the names, leads, motivations, and the organization of al-Qaeda. For instance, information from Khalid Sheik Mohammed led to the arrest of Hambali, a leader of the group responsible for the Bali bombing. That may or may not have disrupted a specific attack (Hambali was working on the Library Tower attack and his first team was arrested prior to KSM’s arrest and interrogation), but the arrests clearly had value. Put it this way — would capturing Bin Laden have value even if it did not disrupt a specific attack?

The only reason one can imagine for redacting the parts in the memos that point to the success of these interrogations, for moving the goalposts on what the interrogations accomplished, and for responding slowly to Cheney’s request for the full declassification of the memos is that the redacted portions are exculpatory and greatly diminish the arguments of those calling for the blood of Bush administration officials.

A long public partisan battle in which government officials are pilloried, after they have sacrificed to protect American lives and interests, can only further harm the president’s public standing — one issue about which this president seems to demonstrate a genuine concern.

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Clarice Feldman is a retired litigation lawyer who lives in D.C. She's a news junkie addicted to the internet.

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119 Comments

1. AThinkingPerson:

I long for the day when this is entirely out in the open for all of us to bear witness to. Every memo, every “torture” video, every secret Congressional meeting. What Carter II fails to see in his limited scope of vision is that this political witch hunt net he has thrown into the ocean will gather up Nancy Pelosi and her ilk along with those Carter II aims for. I revel in the day that it is proven that Bush’s decisions were valid and prevented future attacks and was backed by Democrats and Republicans. When the country realizes they’ve been duped by our current administration into it’s current state of America and military bashing, there will surely be hell to pay. I say BRING IT ON!! Bush will enjoy seeing his name vindicated on the world stage!

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:42 am 2. Ms. Attitude:

How far would he go to protect his children, whom he loves, from a predator? He should love his nation enough to protect us from terrorists. He is throwing us to the wolves!

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:57 am 3. The Historian:

CHAOS IS THE ORDER OF THE DAY
Democrat uni-party government is a leftist dream.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/04/america-is-in-full-disconnect.html

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:02 am 4. MikeD:

I agree with you AThinkingPerson, but also believe you overestimate both the intelligence and the denial of reality that too many Obama voters and worshipers possess. A large number will never recognize his shortcomings because he is their “black” savior. Other smug progressives hate what America stands for to assuage their own misplaced guilt and because of the propaganda fed to their closed minds by the university elites and the disgusting MSM. You couldn’t reason most of these folks to an alternative conclusion if your life depended on it. (And, unfortunately, it might!) Too many others just don’t pay attention–there are a lot of dullards out there and they mainly vote Democrat. It is going to be a long slow slog. I wish I were more confident of a successful outcome but the handwriting on the wall could not be clearer than it is becoming day by day. And the fraud in the White House still has pretty significant support.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:11 am 5. jimpres:

All we can to is try and convince those that voted for him to not vote for him in the next election. And to not for for the liberals in congress that support him in the 2010 election.
But until then we will take a lot of lumps from this administration.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:17 am 6. anton:

I would dearly love to see the list of Senators and Congresspersons who were in on the briefings, as well as the number and timing of the breifings. I am sure Pelosi et al will have an “Obama Moment” and say “That’s not the breifing that I recall” (even though there is video). This ridiculous strip-tease of a memo here and a memo there is served up to distract the emotionally gullible from the disaster that Obama and Co. are turning this country into.

Next on the list; a re-release of the Abu Grahib pictures, maybe that will give the NYT a new lease on life.

Bread and circuses kept the proles quiet but did not keep the barbarians away from the gates.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:19 am 7. Sherab Zangpo:

Are there NO honest Americans in Congress, willing to stop this madness ?
Are all politicians so blinded by ideologies that they can’t see ANY truth ?
Can’t they understand the consequences and the implications of what they do and say ?

I am a moderate. But I will not remain such, if America is attacked again.
And tens and tens of millions, I presume, are like me.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:33 am 8. Eric Florack:

the government is now in the hands of those who’d sacrifice whole cities for some naïve notion of a moral high ground,

Exactly so. Somehow, the willingly chancing the lives of millions as opposed to pouring water on the face of a few to save those millions, doesn’t strike me as very moral.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:36 am 9. jimpres:

I just can not imagine that those who vilify the techniques used to extract information to save live would do the same if it was a family child of member. I have seen them on TV saying they would not use extreme measure to get the information from one who knew where their family member was located/held. We have a PC administration and congress and we will see some strange events in the future as if those we have seen are common sense.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:59 am 10. TexEd:

What happens when the US is next attacked by muslim terrorists?
Will we be able to impeach Obama for failure to do everything possible to defend the country (America, not Kenya)? How about all those at this “meeting?”
These leftists are still so deranged by their hatred for Bush that they will do anything even if it hurts America.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:19 am 11. JED:

#2 Ms. Attitude & #4 MikeD
If you want an example of how far liberals will go in their imaginary plans for utopia, including feeding their children to the wolves, please google Phantom Wolf Pack Hailey, Idaho. Those gentle people are trying to peacefully co-exist with a killer wolf pack, because they think that they can live in harmony with nature. If you have followed these events, there is a Ted Turner study that concluded that wolves can be taught to not eat livestock providing the wolves were not hungry.
The yuppies can hate the ranchers because the ranchers are not irrational.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:32 am 12. Sherab Zangpo:

Sorry, but I propose a link, it’s not really off topic, it’s another wonderful Obavez initiative (freeing some of the guys from Gitmo…in the US)

http://www.dontfreeterrorists.org

Oh my…

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:34 am 13. seven:

I see nothing here except an energy to whip up hysteria on behalf of the left towards conservatives. The ACLU does have more influence over Obama apparently than Obama allows in other industries. I am sure Obaama won’t allow release of findings from the now dead person checking out his passport records.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:37 am 14. AThinkingPerson:

After reading through news reports today about Carter II once again back peddling on all of this, I’m really starting to wonder if Pelosi hasn’t been threatening him to back off or else. She knows that if the Bush administration is wrongly going down, she will be along for the ride. Just a thought. I’m just praying that the damage done to the CIA and other intelligence agencies can be undone somehow.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:37 am 15. Pastor of Muppets:

F.B.I. Special Agent Ali Soufan who interrogated Abu Zubaydah says torture doesn’t work!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html?_r=2&partner=rss&emc=rss

“One of the most striking parts of the memos is the false premises on which they are based. The first, dated August 2002, grants authorization to use harsh interrogation techniques on a high-ranking terrorist, Abu Zubaydah, on the grounds that previous methods hadn’t been working. The next three memos cite the successes of those methods as a justification for their continued use. It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.”
–
“There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process.”
–
“One of the worst consequences of the use of these harsh techniques was that it reintroduced the so-called Chinese wall between the C.I.A. and F.B.I., similar to the communications obstacles that prevented us from working together to stop the 9/11 attacks. Because the bureau would not employ these problematic techniques, our agents who knew the most about the terrorists could have no part in the investigation. An F.B.I. colleague of mine who knew more about Khalid Shaikh Mohammed than anyone in the government was not allowed to speak to him.”

I will always take the word of an actual FBI interrogator over the words of all the Dick Cheneys, Karl Roves, and Clarice Feldmans of the world, i.e., the cowardly armchair torturers who have no actual idea of what the real effects of torture are but are willing to defend it anyway because they just can’t stand the fact that this yet another issue that makes the GOP look like a bunch of amoral psychopaths.

And in this case, an actual interrogator is calling BS on all of you.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:42 am 16. DoctorT:

President Bush at least fulfilled his oath to protect the United States.

Obama on the other hand is violating his oath by putting the country at risk, creating disorder in the CIA and now military (photos to be released today), cutting of defense, and failure to respond to the crisis on the Mexican border. For these offenses alone he should be impeached.

This administration appears to be working on restricting the freedom of the press as well as the internet.
The Napolitano memo about “Right wing radicals”, I believe was intended to discourage people from going to the protests. (so much for freedon of speech and to organize). I also believe that there are arguments for many of the other amendments as well, though not as evident.

So much for his oath, “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:44 am 17. Tom Holsinger:

This is a clear example of the Obama administration’s incompetence. They intended to keep national security issues out of the public eye in order to focus attention on domestic issues, and have done precisely the opposite.

Those who support the Obama administration and favor its domestic objectives must be shaking their heads at this.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:46 am 18. Eric Florack:

So, the effects you’re so worried about, are less of a probelm to you than a city getting nuked?

Ah, yes, liberal priorities… I keep forgetting.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:49 am 19. AThinkingPerson:

Pastor of Muppets et al:

Here’s a link in response to yours where the CIA is reporting that their methods thwarted an attack on LA and as you pointed out, I too value the word of our intrepid CIA…

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:53 am 20. clarice:

Be my guest POM:http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2009/04/tradition-or-truth-get-your-boots-on.html

You know–one of those things with citations to actual documents not just NYT sinarama.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:58 am 21. Meryl:

7. Sherab Zangpo:
Sherab Zangpo:

“Are there NO honest Americans in Congress, willing to stop this madness ?
Are all politicians so blinded by ideologies that they can’t see ANY truth ?
Can’t they understand the consequences and the implications of what they do and say ?”

Exactly what I’ve been wondering.

For weeks and weeks now.

Apr 24, 2009 - 11:59 am 22. Sebastian Shaw:

President Obama’s pandering to the fringe loony Left is going to backfire; it has already ensnared Nancy Pelosi & other Democrats are bound to be caught in Obama’s black widow web. Ouch!

President Incompetent keep on keeping on!

He’s doing a great job unifying the Republicans. Ouch!

So much for unintended consequences.

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:08 pm 23. clarice:

**sPinarama**

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:10 pm 24. anton:

@15. Pastor of Muppets:

Oh Pope of Sock-Puppets!

You need to read between the lines of the Agent’s statement, how is it that he KNOWS that the informantion that he alludes to would have been gotten in a timely manner? He doesn’t, it is impossible to know that which hasn’t happened. You can’t prove he would have given that information under “normal” interrogation techniques (BTW he fails to define the techniques that he used SO succesfully, was it a chit-chat over tea?).

The dynamic of interrogation is that the interveiwer holds the cards and has a valid threat, the subject “makes a deal” by trading information to avoid the execution of that threat. These guys did not provide information out of some idealistic feeling toward the US, they felt that they could escape from an unpleasant situation if they gave up their buddies.

You can always eschew a technique but are never sure if it would have worked. You cannot know what would have been revealed using less agressive techniques

You can refuse an experimental cancer treatment because you are not sure it would work, but when you die because the traditional method fails you are left wondering if the alternative would have worked.

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:10 pm 25. Pastor of Muppets:

AThinkingPerson: “Here’s a link in response to yours where the CIA is reporting that their methods thwarted an attack on LA and as you pointed out, I too value the word of our intrepid CIA…

http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=46949”

I figured someone would try to trot that turd out! Sorry, but that story has been totally debunked.

The “planned attack on Los Angeles” refers to an announcement made on February 9th 2006 in which it was claimed that an Al-Qaeda plan to fly a plane into the LA Library Tower was thwarted in 2002. The release of the news that the plot had been prevented by means of tapping terrorist suspect’s phone, and not torture as the CIA now claims, was politically timed to coincide with the start of legal hearings on the Bush administration’s domestic eavesdropping program.

Fox “News,” the White House’s PR mouthpiece, immediately began showing footage from the movie Independence Day, in which the famous tower is destroyed.

Hours after the announcement, the mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, went public with his absolute bewilderment concerning the alleged plot.

“I’m amazed that the president would make this (announcement) on national TV and not inform us of these details through the appropriate channels,” the mayor said in an interview with The Associated Press. “I don’t expect a call from the president — but somebody.”

The day after the announcement, twenty three separate intelligence experts, all with either CIA, FBI, NSA or military credentials, both in and out of service, angrily disputed Bush’s remarks about the alleged L.A. plot, with one going as far as saying that the President was “full of ****.”

Another described the claims as “worthless intel that was discarded long ago.”

A New York Times story cited “several counter-terrorism officials” as saying that “the plot never progressed past the planning stages…. ‘To take that and make it into a disrupted plot is just ludicrous,’ said one senior FBI official.”

The New York Daily News cited another senior counterterrorism official who said: “There was no definitive plot. It never materialized or got past the thought stage.”

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:15 pm 26. Eric Florack:

Pastor of Muppets: In all seriousness… read Solzhenitsyn Gulag Archipelago, if you’re convinced it doesn’t work. It does in fact work, and works well enough to cause concern. To assert otherwise is to laugh in the face of history. Beyond that, it becomes a matter of who gets to decide history, and whose morality in the end gets enforced. That advantage always and invariably falls to the winners.

Let me explain this to you in simple terms; War is the absense of law and morality. Law and morality are reestablished by the winners of that war, but not until the war is won. For the morality of one side or the other to survive and thrive, someone in that situation must win the damn war. Unfortunate that occasionally taht means operating in a wartime mode, not a peacetime one.

Tom Holsinger:

They intended to keep national security issues out of the public eye in order to focus attention on domestic issues, and have done precisely the opposite.

Interesting thought, and there’s something of a pattern, here you may be unaware of along that line:

I dunno if you were around for Clinton’s first term, or more correctly the campaign leading to it. But he went out of his way to tell us that his presidency would be about the domestic… that he was proud to be ignorant of foreign affairs.

Funnty thing; He still holds the record for the largest number of foreign military deployments.

That reocrd, however, will be challanged by Obama.

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:29 pm 27. Robert Hurley:

The following rar out leftists condemn torture

“

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:33 pm 28. Robert Hurley:

“”Torture violates the basic dignity of the human person that all religions, in their highest ideals, hold dear. It degrades everyone involved – policymakers, perpetrators and victims. It contradicts our nation’s most cherished values. Any policies that permit torture and inhumane treatment are shocking and morally intolerable. Nothing less is at stake in the torture abuse crisis than the soul of our nation. What does it signify if torture is condemned in word but allowed in deed? Let America abolish torture now – without exceptions.”

The statement can be found on the web site of the National Religious Campaign Against Torture at http://www.nrcat.org

A list of religious leaders who have signed the statement follows.

Rabbi Alvin Berkun
President, The Rabbinical Assembly

Most Rev. Metropolitan Christopher
Serbian Orthodox Church in the USA and Canada

Archbishop Nicolae Condrea
Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese in America and Canada

Archbishop Demetrios
Primate, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

Rabbi Daniel Ehrenkrantz
President, Reconstructionist Rabbinical College

Rabbi Jerome M. Epstein
Executive Vice President, United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism

The Most Reverend Frank T. Griswold
Presiding Bishop, The Episcopal Church

The Reverend Mark S. Hanson
Presiding Bishop, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Rev. Dr. Stan Hastey
Executive Director, Alliance of Baptists

Bishop Janice Riggle Huie
President, Council of Bishops, The United Methodist Church

Rev. Clifton Kirkpatrick
Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.)

Rev. Michael Livingston
Executive Director, International Council of Community Churches

Dr. Ingrid Mattson
President, Islamic Society of North America

Rev. A. Roy Medley
General Secretary, American Baptist Churches USA

Metropolitan Philip
Primate, The Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America

Rabbi Brant Rosen
President, Reconstructionist Rabbinical Association

Dr. Manmohan Singh
Secretary General, World Sikh Council – American Region

Rev. William G. Sinkford
President, Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations

Reverend William J. Shaw
President, National Baptist Convention, USA, Inc.

Most Reverend William S. Skylstad
President, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops

Rev. John H. Thomas
President, United Church of Christ

Rev. Dr. Sharon E. Watkins
General Minister and President, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)

Rev. David L. Wickmann
President, Provincial Elders Conference, Moravian Church, Northern and Southern Provinces

Rabbi Eric Yoffie
President, Union for Reform Judaism

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:33 pm 29. Robert Hurley:

From a moral point of view, however, waterboarding is torture. It degrades the prisoner and the torturer. When physicians become a part of this process, they undermine the fundamental tenet of medical ethics, “First, do no harm.” It is unacceptable for physicians to claim ignorance of medical ethics around any abuse of prisoners, let alone abuse that rises to the level of torture.

Physicians cannot use their medical knowledge and skill to hurt prisoners. This constitutes an egregious violation of medical ethics. Participation in waterboarding is blatantly unethical.

On March 11, 2008, President Bush gave a 42 – minute speech to the National Religious Broadcasters at their annual convention. He said, “We believe that every human being bears the image of our maker. No one is fit to be a master, and no one deserves to be a slave.” Waterboarding and other means of torture create a master/slave relationship. Waterboarding does not honor the belief and fact that every person is made in God’s image.

(Sulpician Father Gerald Coleman is vice president for ethics for the Daughters of Charity Health System and a lecturer in moral theology at Santa Clara University.)

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:37 pm 30. Ms. Attitude:

29. Robert Hurley:

What’s the alternative?

Apr 24, 2009 - 12:48 pm 31. Sebastian Shaw:

Religious leaders are not leading a war to kill terrorists, but the buck stops with President Obama. War is hell for a reason; it’s not rainbows & unicorns. Water boarding saved lives Period. The record exists.

Stop with the tangents.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:01 pm 32. Terry Gain:

From a moral point of view, however, waterboarding is torture.

The United States does not torture its own soldiers. A technique which causes no bodily harm and no long term deleterious effect but only transient panic, and which is administered only to obtain life saving information, is not torture by any reasonable definition of that term.

Let’s make a deal. For every partial birth abortion you liberals commit, we get to waterboard one terrorist.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:08 pm 33. anton:

@29 Neither does allowing them to blown up because you are squeamish about the path required to prevent it.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:11 pm 34. Erasmus:

16. Bush took an oath to “uphold the Constitution”, not “protect the United States”.

With all due respect, the US had numerous laws specifically prohibiting torture of ANYONE in custody. Bush and his crew took very elaborate steps to secretly implement a torture regiment, conceal evidence of said regiment, and then feebly attempt to reverse engineer legal cover to protect the interregators who were beginning to push back (including the ones who have gone on record saying they were ordered to get confessions from KSD that Al Queda and Iraq were allied).

The foundation of the US is our laws. The foundation of our laws is due process. You can’t simply throw out the concept of due process, throw people into prisons (secret or otherwise) without charging them with a crime, and then inflict physical abuse on them based on the premise that they MIGHT know something. Would you be pefectly happy if our domestic police force started doing the same thing?

Finally, here’s what Ronald Reagan said about torture when he ratified US participation in the 1984 UN Convention on Torture:

“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

The core provisions of the Convention establish a regime for international cooperation in the criminal prosecution of torturers relying on so-called ‘universal jurisdiction.’ Each State Party is required either to prosecute torturers who are found in its territory or to extradite them to other countries for prosecution.”

It’s pretty sad that conservatives appear to have been reduced to a sneering, paranoid bunch of sadists.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:13 pm 35. Professor Guvinoff:

@ #4, MikeD.

Agreed. I would go even further: The choice of an irresponsible president could not have been made without a dangerous measure of blindness in the electorate in the first place.

Conversely, electing a man so determined to exacerbate our domestic woes, and at the same time refuse to acknowledge the external dangers could reflect a collective wish to take a vacation from reality.

On the other hand, there could not be so much energy behind the tea parties if there was not at the same time also a wide perception of how perilous our national circumstances are.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:17 pm 36. Terry Gain:

I will always take the word of an actual FBI interrogator over the words of all the Dick Cheneys, Karl Roves, and Clarice Feldmans of the world, i.e., the cowardly armchair torturers who have no actual idea of what the real effects of torture are but are willing to defend it anyway because they just can’t stand the fact that this yet another issue that makes the GOP look like a bunch of amoral psychopaths.

It would be wiser not to take anyone’s word but to assess the evidence after it has been scrutinized. Let me know when this FBI agent is cross-examined and I’ll tune in.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:22 pm 37. Erasmus:

How exactly did waterboarding prisoners in 2003 prevent an attack that intelligence had determined had been called off in 2002? Or is American torture so incredible that it can actually bend the space-time barrier?

I’m noticing that none of you guys have commented on the story where the Gitmo interregator went on record saying that they were pressured to get KSM to “confess” to a cooperative link between Saddam and Al-Queda. So, was the guy lying or was the US trying to falsify their evidence for the Iraq invasion?

By the way, partial-birth abortion is an irrelevant straw-man in this debate. As odious as it is, partial-birth abortion is legal. On the other hand, waterboarding and other forms of torture are actually illegal, despite what the Bush apologists tell you.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:27 pm 38. Pastor of Muppets:

Erasmus: It’s pretty sad that conservatives appear to have been reduced to a sneering, paranoid bunch of sadists.

They’ll do absolutely anything to protect their own and the status of their party. Even if it means embracing sadism. Even if it means imprisoning American soldiers, calling them “bad apples” for torturing when in fact they were just following the clear orders given to them by Bush and Cheney. Even if it means fabricating a story in which waterboarding saved LA from a terrorist attack. Even if it means disregarding the language written in our Constitution.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:50 pm 39. Pastor of Muppets:

Terry Gain: “It would be wiser not to take anyone’s word but to assess the evidence after it has been scrutinized. Let me know when this FBI agent is cross-examined and I’ll tune in.”

Yeah, alright, and you let me know when Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld are cross-examined. I’ll be sure to tune in as well.

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:57 pm 40. Paul of Alexandria:

Erasmus (34):

1) Define torture. I mean it: give a complete definition.
2) Please remember that these are illegal enemy combatants. They are not criminals, not U.S. citizens, and not POW’s. They are not U.S. citizens nor (unless GITMO is closed) on U.S. soil, therefore they are not entitled to Constitutional protections. Nor, since they do not themselves act in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, are they entitled to its protections. People tend to forget that “POW” is a legal term with a specific meaning. Legally we are quite justified in treating these enemy combatants in the same way that we treat spies: any way that we want to.
3) We’re at war. In war, a lot of rules get suspended where enemy combatants are concerned.
4) You have yet to prove that President Bush did anything illegal. Seems to me that he went to a whole lot of trouble to ensure that everything he did was legal, approved of by Congress, and justifiable. That’s why this whole Pelosi nonsense is so abominable: she who is squawking so loudly knew very well what was going on!

Apr 24, 2009 - 1:58 pm 41. Paul of Alexandria:

There will be several effects of this memo release, none of which will be pleasant.

First of all, the terrorists will use it to whip up their recruiting efforts. Not that anybody really expected us to be particularly nice to captured terrorists, but now they have something to wave in front of the mob.

Second, we will have to find some way of interrogating these people, and Erasmus to the contrary it will take “intensive” methods to do so. We will either have to do it illegally (the legendary ship in international waters, as seen on the TV show “The Unit”) or hand the terrorists over to other nations who will have no qualms about chopping bits off to extract information.

Third, no military or intelligence officer will have anything to do with questioning a detainee in any fashion whatsoever. The first rule of intelligence work is “protect your source”. We just left our primary source out to hang. This means that our “take” is going to drop precipitously. I will also venture to speculate that the number of terrorists killed in the field, as opposed to those captured, will go up drastically. Why capture a terrorists that you can’t interrogate?

Fourth, our ability to hire and keep good intelligence officers will drop sharply. Why work for a government that will only betray you for political purposes?

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:06 pm 42. Tom Holsinger:

The Obama administration does not seem to realize that national security is its “tar baby” a la the Uncle Remus stories – the more it says about national security, regardless of what it says, the more it draws attention to national security issues. And national security issues are not its friends.

If the Obama administration really wants to focus on domestic issues, it should shut the f*** up about national security issues.

But it won’t. This fuss well illustrates the fundamental weakness of the Obama administration – incompetence.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:08 pm 43. Paul of Alexandria:

Robert Hurley (29):

From a moral point of view, however, waterboarding is torture. It degrades the prisoner and the torturer.

Will you please explain why degredation is bad? The usual definitions of torture involve permement physiological and/or psychological harm, i.e. chopping bits of slowly, electrical shock to sensitive areas, burning, raping, crushing of thumbs in screws, stretching on the rack, etc. Degredation uses a prisoner’s sense of shame against him, but there is no permenent damage.

Generally speaking degredation is the only way to get these people to talk. Remember, these are not criminals, they are trained warriers. A criminal knows that he is acting against his own society’s code of ethics and deserves to be punished. They also tend to be somewhat stupid. These jihadi’s are neither: they are usually quite intelligent and well educated and they are acting in full accordance with their own society’s code of honor and ethics. They are also usually trained to resist conventional interrogation techniques (That’s what terrorist training camps do, after all: train terrorists).

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:13 pm 44. Terry Gain:

Apparently, POM, you’ll do anything but think fairly. Obama’s party is now considering charging Republican lawyers for rendering legal opinions that conflict with the legal opinions of Democratic lawyers.

This is a far greater attack upon the United States Constitution and way of life than waterboarding terrorists, you dolt.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:14 pm 45. Curtis:

#29 Robert Hurley

“From a moral point of view, however, waterboarding is torture.”

A moral point of view? I don’t suppose you could give us a DEFINITION of torture (from a ‘moral point of view’ of course).

“It degrades the prisoner and the torturer.”

Is this your definition of torture? Any method of interrogation which ‘degrades’ the prisoner and the interrogator? So…….who gets to decide what is ‘degradation’?

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:17 pm 46. Terry Gain:

We will either have to do it illegally (the legendary ship in international waters, as seen on the TV show “The Unit”) or hand the terrorists over to other nations who will have no qualms about chopping bits off to extract information.

Beyond doubt, Obama will hand them over.

Fourth, our ability to hire and keep good intelligence officers will drop sharply. Why work for a government that will only betray you for political purposes?

Prepare for the next attack liberals. And don’t pretend you weren’t warned.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:20 pm 47. Erasmus:

40.

1. “Torture is defined as any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a male or female person for such purposes as obtaining from him, or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in, or incidental to, lawful sanctions”

2. Please remember that US Laws against torture aren’t confined strictly to POW’s. The UN Convention on Torture, ratified by Ronald Reagan in 1984, bans torture against ANYONE.

3. We’re at War? Would you please point to the formal declaration of War that Congress passed in either current military action we’re in. No “use of force” citations please, find me an actual Congressional Declaration of War.

4. You actually think that torturing people without even bothering to charge them with a crime is legal? There appears to be more than a little evidence that US officials ordered interrogation techniques that the US used to refer to as “torture” FIRST, then had the OLC reverse-engineer a phoney-baloney set of memos to pretend that this was all legally on the level. It also appears that the US was determined to get KSM to confess to an AQ-Iraq alliance, hence the increased waterboarding in the month before the invasion of Iraq was authorized.

By the way, many intelligence officers would be perfectly happy to participate in interrogations when they were conducted according to US laws prohibiting torture of prisoners. The FBI walked away from Gitmo because they didn’t want to be a party to war crimes.

This whole talking point that we are unable to gain intelligence without physically abusing suspects is patently absurd. Did we torture people in order to secure the evidence we needed to convict the 1993 WTC bombers in a court of law? Did we need to shackle the Millenium bomber from a ceiling to discover his plot? Republican apologists of torture are clearly far too lazy to do the grunge work that intelligence gathering requires, they would rather just start getting out the rubber hoses.

But, what do you do if you ended up physically assaulting a terror suspect that turns out not have done anything, or moreover might not have actually been a terrorist at all? Given that Bush released quite a few people without charges, that would mean that we might have tortured innocent people (in the former system of US laws, a person who is not charged and convicted of a crime is innocent in the eyes of the law). Apart from the obvious war crime issues, do you feel comfortable with the concept of torturing people who might not have actually done anything?

Where do we draw the line with this? Should we be able to kill family members of suspected terrorists in order to get them to talk? Should we be able to crush the testicles of the sons of suspected terrorists, as John Yoo once suggested was acceptable.

Hell, if physically coercing confessions is ultimately the goal of this, should local police forces also be permitted to do this to suspects in regular crimes as well?

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:32 pm 48. jw:

Those concerned about the treatment of the enemy combatants in Guantanamo Bay, who are NOT prisoners-of-war and thus not protected by the Geneva Conventions, as Erasmus #34 points out, say nothing about the treatment of actual prisoners-of-war by Al Qaeda.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:33 pm 49. elvis:

What is right and what is wrong versus legal and illegal??? Partial birth abortion is legal but not torture? Tell you what. Some of you idiots are insane, not just liberal wackos. I’m proud to be a sadist then. I want to see this guy covered in bacon before he’s tortured! How are you handling your insanity now?

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:35 pm 50. Erasmus:

36. Funny, an FBI agent goes on record with what he witnessed, and your immediate assumption is to imply that he’s lying? I guess you guys worship intelligence and law enforcement officials as long as they tow the Republican line, huh?

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:36 pm 51. El hefe:

Tools, all of you, you strain at knats and swallow camels, you should all be afraid. I hope you’re having fun being manipulated by the whatevers in Washington.
Stand up and pay the price or sit and pay, anyway there is a price and it will have to be paid by someone.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:42 pm 52. huxley:

Clarice — An excellent round-up of the current mind-boggling developments.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:42 pm 53. Emphasis:

The idea of being civilized during a war is utter nonsense. The argument is normally advanced by those that are far away from the actual fight. What would you do in order to prevent them from killing your son or daughter? I can’t think of anything I would not do.

On the other hand, torture is the pulling of nails, electrodes attached to sensitive parts of your body, incremental dismemberment etc. The procedures that have been mentioned do not rise to that level, and thus in my opinion do not constitute torture. Instead this is just a political witch hunt.

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:48 pm 54. Michael M.:

I saw this headline on the ABC news site:

Obama Administration to Release Detainee Abuse Photos; Former CIA Official Says Former Colleagues ‘Don’t Believe They Have Cover Anymore’

Just as Jimmy Carter crippled our human intelligence capabilities, Obama is doing it again. Carter did it through legislation and Obama is doing it by recklessly airing the CIA’s dirty laundry for political gain. As if we needed to draw another parallel between Carter and Obama.

Wasn’t the lack of human intelligence cited as a chief cause for not finding WMDs in Iraq? Does anyone believe that Obama hasn’t compromised the safety of the US? I’m not a Cheney fan but Obama’s making him look like a prophet.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:01 pm 55. Erasmus:

53. So if you define torture as pulling of nails, electrodes attached to parts of your body, dismemberment, answer me this. Why exactly do you think that virtually every other civilized country up until 2002 defined torture as also including waterboarding, sleep deprivation, shackling someone naked upside down from a ceiling, and mock executions. Read what Ronald Reagan said when he signed the UN Convention against Torture (again, which doesn’t confine itself to soldiers and POWs). Was Reagan wrong in what he said?

As for the idea that societies can’t be civilized during wartime, I suggest you read C.S. Lewis’ WWII essays published in the book “The Price of Glory”, where he argued the exact opposite thing. Frankly, the idea that we must stoop to the level of our enemy in order to defeat them is utter nonsense.

Once sadism becomes an accepted method of securing “safety”, just where do you draw the line? How do you prevent even more barbaric methods from be employed in the name of the “war on terror”? What exactly would stop a regime from using such methods against US citizens for reasons other than the “war on terror”. Hell, there is a mountain of evidence that the Bush administration was listening in on the phone calls of newspaper reporters and other citizens who had nothing to do with AQ or Iraq. Is it really unreasonable to wonder that a country that is willing to torture so easily would have no problems with local policemen torturing suspects in substantially lesser crimes?

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:01 pm 56. Belladonna Rogers:

Clarice Feldman is one of the world’s clearest thinkers, clearest writers and possesses a truly brilliant, logical, perceptive mind. Would that she were the President’s Chief of Staff, Legal Counsel and his first nominee to the Supreme Court. She thinks, analyzes and writes so clearly that even the President and the Attorney General should be able to understand the matters about which she writes. Would that they did.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:19 pm 57. elvis:

#55 Quoting C. S. Lewis now are we??? I’m looking at his essays on partial birth abortion right now…. Let me get back to you on his thoughts on that when I’m finished.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:21 pm 58. Terry Gain:

I think we very reasonably drew the line at the mastermind of 9/11 and two top al Qaeda leaders. No one was killed. No balls were crushed. No one was even physically harmed. BTW I missed your outrage over partial birth abortion and Obama’s support for infanticide. Why is that?

Hell, if physically coercing confessions is ultimately the goal of this, should local police forces also be permitted to do this to suspects in regular crimes as well?

The goal was to obtain information in order to protect against further attacks and win a war. If you can’t distinguish between these 3 and an ordinary criminal, you are an idiot and we have nothing to talk about.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:22 pm 59. elvis:

and by the way… Reagan set out to defeat the enemy. That has been the problem all along with Afghanistan and Iraq. We have been playing with our enemy.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:23 pm 60. Terry Gain:

Once sadism becomes an accepted method of securing “safety”, just where do you draw the line?

There is no sadism. You do what you have to do. But there is plenty of hysteria from you over the harsh – and life saving treatment – of these terrorist leaders.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:26 pm 61. elvis:

Yes Terry Gain, they are idiots, and not even useful ones.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:43 pm 62. Emphasis:

Erasmus:

I will address your statements when you answer the question I posed:

“What would you do in order to prevent them from killing your son or daughter?”

You can even answer instead what you would not do. But have a dog in the fight, and be honest with us and yourself.

In the meantime read this:

“Reading the Medal of Honor link above, it is noted that he was in captivity when a Cuban team came in 1968 and stayed for a year. They taught the North Vietnamese how to extract information. Colonel Thorsness was not among the eight tortured by the Cubans, but they systematically tortured POW Earl Cobiel to death: “Corbeil was struck along the brow with a hose and didn’t blink. And they took a rusty nail and carved a bloody X across his back.”

This was done by those sent by Raul and Fidel Castro to North Vietnam; you know the Raul and Fidel our president wants to shake hands with. If you call the procedures used by the US torture what name will you give this then?

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:46 pm 63. Claire Solt:

Why should I support policies that arise out of fantasy? At no time was gore ahead in the election count in 2000. So, it is a delusion that the election was stolen. In another hearing room we are advised that we will pay beaucoup more on utility bills to address the hoax of global warming. This is what nihilism has wrought. If perception is reality then bring on imaginary issues and push them with propaganda techniques. Actually, there are real issues to address not the least of which is the monopoly money they are spending.

Apr 24, 2009 - 3:53 pm 64. AtheistConservative:

Why, exactly, are you allowing the trolls to dictate this conversation?

The memos show that these methods worked. That’s why they were selectively redacted.

The memos show that Congress was informed. That means both parties approved of the methods.

Stop allowing the MoveOn.org idiots to push you around by claiming “Bush secretly allowed torture”. In the wake of a national tragedy, not knowing what other attacks were coming, our entire government decided to allow ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ because they felt it was necessary to protect the US. Whether or not you agree with those decisions now is irrelevant. The whole government knew. And, more importantly, it worked.

If you want to release all the people in Gitmo, stop using enhanced interrogation, and pretend you can nicely ask about upcoming attacks and treat terrorists as civil offenders and get results, fine. But you shoulder the burden and the blame if it fails. Bear in mind that the only reason we have the current peaceful climate is because of those previous decisions, and stop trying to deflect your responsibility by pointing up the ‘evil’ of a policy decision made by everyone in a much different climate.

Apr 24, 2009 - 4:16 pm 65. Leatherneck:

I bet the Russians held hands, and sang songs after Belson.

Our so called government is full of CFR pink panty wearing fools. But that is OK, the American public will take care of the MS-13 types, and moon god worshipers when they get the chance not waiting for support.

BZO your weapon/weapons, square away your gear, and get a stinking hair cut!

Apr 24, 2009 - 4:17 pm 66. tommyd:

Who says Obama does not want to feed the Pelosi’s and others to the wolves?

Elimination of all future competition whatever side is SOP. Why would he care if the idiots get caught with their hands in the cookie jar?
It ain’t HIS hand and that is all he cares about.

Teleprompter Jesus is a ONE MAN SHOW.

Apr 24, 2009 - 4:25 pm 67. newguy40:

Didn’t OBL declare war on the US when Saudi Arabia continued to allow US military presence on their soil? That seems pretty clear declaration of war to me. I suspect Daniel Pearl would agree if he was alive.

Secondly, as Sherman pointed out. “War is all hell. You cannot refine it.” I think the fundamental difference here is those who believe there is a long term existential threat to the US and those who choose not to despite decades of evidence to the contrary.

Thirdly, the ineluctible fog of war. It simply was not possible to know what was going on in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq following 9/11. Lack of HUMINT and simply not knowing what was next, full nuke, dirty nuke?

I simply cannot understand this willingness to forgo all the weapons at our disposal. This has nothing to do with humane treatment of so called enemy combatants– which the USA provides far far in excess than what our soldiers and citizens have recieved in return.

It’s deferred suicide.

Apr 24, 2009 - 4:26 pm 68. Dave Surls:

“Porter Goss, former CIA director and past chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, blasted the Obama administration for releasing Justice Department memos on harsh interrogation techniques. “For the first time in my experience we’ve crossed the red line of properly protecting our national security in order to gain partisan political advantage,” Goss said in an interview.”

Yup (except it’s not the first time…Dem traitors pulled the same crap in the 1860s, and also during the Vietnam War…putting their own interests ahead of the interests of the nation and its citizens).

And, the sooner Obama is removed from office…the better.

What he and his scumbag supporters are doing helps terrorists and hurts America. He isn’t fit to be a citizen, much less POTUS.

Apr 24, 2009 - 4:54 pm 69. tommyd:

I’ll have to tell Daniel Pearls wife she should take comfort in knowing her husbands captors did not resort to such terrible things as waterboarding.

Liberals are liars, plain and simple. They are so good at it they can’t even tell when they are lying to themselves. They pretend to care about this bs when it fits their political agenda, yet they have NO qualms when it comes to Partial Birth Abortions by the thousands…Heck they even pay to promote it around the world.(with our money I might add) and we are suppose to believe they care about humanity when they support the murder of our most defenseless human beings?? Yeah let’s just throw those unwanted aborted babies in the trash but don’t be mean to grown men that have vowed to and have Killed Non Believers all over the world.

Don’t even try to blow that smoke up my A**.

Go look in the mirror and try to square that one in your little mind. Why don’t you go tell your children you believe in abortion and explain it to them in detail.

Show them the Daniel Pearl beheading video and then try to explain how we should be nice to murderers like that.

It is so simple that a child will understand who the bad people are

Liberalism is a mental disorder.

Apr 24, 2009 - 5:15 pm 70. Paul of Alexandria:

Erasmus (47):

1. “Torture is defined as ….

Interesting definition. Is that your own, or are you quoting? Now, please define “severe”. That is really the key here, isn’t it. I would suggest that your definition is extremely arbitrary, relying on a very subjective definition of “severe”. You might call waterboarding severe, I might draw the line at bamboo shoots under the fingernails. Again, none of the methods approved under President Bush cause permenant damage.

2. Please remember that US Laws against torture aren’t confined strictly to POW’s.

No, but the often cited Geneva conventions are. Again, since Bush got a pretty good number legal opinions that agreed that the techniques used were not – by definition – torture, it’s pretty reasonable to assume that he wasn’t violating U.S. law.

3. We’re at War? Would you please point to the formal declaration of War that Congress passed in either current military action we’re in…..

Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 [1], Pub.L. 107-243, 116 Stat. 1498, enacted October 16, 2002, H.J.Res. 114. You might note that the U.S. Constitution does not define a formal form for a Declaration of War; there is no “Declaration of War… the short form.” The issue is rather complex, you might want to read the U.S. Constitution on Line, Q108. Absent a formal format, so long as Congress approves the action, it’s a declaration of war.

4. You actually think that torturing people without even bothering to charge them with a crime is legal? ….

Again: this is a war, not a criminal action. Normal criminal practices do not apply.

This whole talking point that we are unable to gain intelligence without physically abusing suspects is patently absurd….

So you think that U.S. soldiers did this for kicks? Please go and review those memos and see what the agents had to go through before they even touched one of those prisoners. Seems to me like they made pretty darn sure that they couldn’t get that information any other way.

But, what do you do if you ended up physically assaulting a terror suspect that turns out not have done anything, or moreover might not have actually been a terrorist at all? Given that Bush released quite a few people without charges, that would mean that we might have tortured innocent people ….

As you yourself said: the Army released a bunch of prisoners because of evidence that they were (at least relatively) innocent of charges. The prisoners that were interrogated were not, however, picked up randomly off of the street. They were captured in combat or otherwise positively identified as being enemy combatants. You can be pretty sure that no innocent people were subjected to intensive interrogation.

Again, the military and the CIA weren’t on fishing expeditions. Most of these people were picked up on the battlefield (most of the innocent prisoners were handed over by other nations) and could be positively identified as enemy combatants. The question wasn’t if they knew anything, but how much they knew. Also, BTW, the interrogators didn’t take falsehoods as a successful questioning, all results were checked against ground truth.

Where do we draw the line with this? Should we be able to kill family members of suspected terrorists in order to get them to talk? Should we be able to crush the testicles of the sons of suspected terrorists, as John Yoo once suggested was acceptable.

See above, no (although we might threaten to do so), and no (see my definition of torture above).

Hell, if physically coercing confessions is ultimately the goal of this, should local police forces also be permitted to do this to suspects in regular crimes as well?

You really don’t understand the difference between warfare and a criminal action, do you?

Apr 24, 2009 - 5:38 pm 71. prospero:

The logical conclusion of the Obamaesque argument is that we should apologize and pay restitution to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed–we treated him unjustly and brutally, without convicting him of any crimes. No supporter of Obama or critic of “torture” should be responded to until they go on record supporting such an apology and restitution. If they don’t, they’re just playing partisan games.

Apr 24, 2009 - 5:40 pm 72. steveg:

It would appear the Democrat party has settled back entirely into a 9/10 mentality. If we are attacked again they will look like fools and pay dearly.

I have long been of the opinion that the Democrat party cannot be trusted with National Security. Carter II is a understatement.

Apr 24, 2009 - 5:54 pm 73. Foxwood:

Let’s go surfin’ now
Everybody’s learnin’ how
Do some waterboardin’ with me!

Apr 24, 2009 - 6:02 pm 74. huxley:

Paul of A. — Thanks for the work you put into #70.

It really does comes down to understanding that making war and prosecuting criminals are entirely different undertakings.

I dislike killing people even more than waterboarding them, but in war we do that too.

Apr 24, 2009 - 6:29 pm 75. Leatherneck:

This is to distract you from the swine flu the illegal aliens are bringing in from Mexico. How many weeks has Obama known about the swine flu, and has not closed the southern border?

Apr 24, 2009 - 7:45 pm 76. not so fast:

Let’s do a quick simple poll. De-politicize the issue just for a second. One word answer to:

Is waterboarding torture?

Apr 24, 2009 - 8:04 pm 77. I'm not confused anymore:

Go figure:

From Crooks and Liars . . .

We made a mistake the other day when Paul Begala left Ari Fleischer dumbstruck by saying:

BEGALA: We — our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?

We chided Begala slightly because we thought he wasn’t quite right on the facts:

Actually, Fleischer could have countered Begala by pointing out that we didn’t actually execute the Japanese soldiers convicted of the war crime of waterboarding American prisoners — we just sentenced them to 15 years’ hard labor.

But now, Begala makes clear he knew whereof he spoke:

But I was not referring to Asano, nor was my source Sen. Kennedy. Instead I was referencing the statement of a different member of the Senate: John McCain. On November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, “Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding.”

Sen. McCain was right and the National Review Online is wrong. Politifact, the St. Petersburg Times’ truth-testing project (which this week was awarded a Pulitzer Prize), scrutinized Sen. McCain’s statement and found it to be true. Here’s the money quote from Politifact:

“McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as ‘water cure,’ ‘water torture’ and ‘waterboarding,’ according to the charging documents. It simulates drowning.” Politifact went on to report, “A number of the Japanese soldiers convicted by American judges were hanged, while others received lengthy prison sentences or time in labor camps.”

The folks at Politifact interviewed R. John Pritchard, the author of The Tokyo War Crimes Trial: The Complete Transcripts of the Proceedings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. They also interviewed Yuma Totani, history professor at the University of Nevada-Las Vegas, and consulted the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which published a law review article entitled, “Drop by Drop: Forgetting the History of Water Torture in U.S. Courts.”

We apologize to Begala for the error.

We’ll be waiting a long time, I expect, for all those right-wingers out there who claim waterboarding isn’t torture to apologize to the world.

Go figure . . . Damn left wing smear sites.

Apr 24, 2009 - 8:16 pm 78. fred:

I’ve digested as many of the comments of the Leftists here as I can stomach, and the sophistry they employ is utterly degenerate. They care not a whit about human life and the defense of it. It would a mistake to put our lives in their hands, but that is exactly what the people voted for.

Let’s put it to a vote: Lynne Stewart or Jack Bauer. My money’s on Jack, but I know exactly where Lynne Stewart wins and the demographics who support this Communist sympathizer of Islamic terrorists. And they are mainly crowded into the urban centers, exactly where the next massive terrorist event is going to happen. Which means the jihadis do us a favor and rid us of more young Leftists.

For now, we are in full civilizational suicide mode. Just wish the people who want us all to die would save the jihadis the trouble and kill themselves.

Apr 24, 2009 - 8:20 pm 79. Jones:

Couple things:

1) Why do we give a rat’s @$$ about the physical comfort of our enemies?

2) the ‘moral high ground’ isn’t worth a damn if it just gives you a better view of Ground Zero.

3) Obama is going to get some of us killed.

Apr 24, 2009 - 8:30 pm 80. Jones:

#76

imho

Apr 24, 2009 - 8:30 pm 81. DaveinPhoenix:

Laws against torture: the purpose of law in a civilized society is to promote good behavior, to punish those who have broken the law, to protect the law abiding from law breakers, to promote the common good of the people.
The entire discussion of laws in regards to torture misses the basic idea that laws are created for the good of the public. In a world where hundreds of thousands of Americans could conceivably die after being exposed to a few ounces of nerve gas, laws against torture are obsolete. Before the invention of mass human destruction, laws against torture were understandable.

The present risk of members of an uncivilized society carrying out a massive attack on any population far outweighs the loss of personal liberties by those who have already rejected any form of civil society, or law. In short, those who reject this society can not enjoy the freedoms which it provides.

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:00 pm 82. tommyd:

#72 steveg:

“It would appear the Democrat party has settled back entirely into a 9/10 mentality. If we are attacked again they will look like fools and pay dearly.”

Slight correction to this statement. It will undoubtedly be “Innocent Americans” that will Pay Dearly.

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:06 pm 83. TurfMonster:

No, waterboarding is not torture.

Listening to the left abuse the facts and reasoning behind this issue, however, is torture.

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:09 pm 84. paul_unalaska:

Pastor of Muppets: ‘Even if it means imprisoning American soldiers, calling them “bad apples” for torturing when in fact they were just following the clear orders given to them by Bush and Cheney’.

Apparently Pres. Bush & V.P. Cheney made a point to tell a handful of idiots Commanders in A G to humiliate the alleged terrorists in custody. Hmmm…

During their court hearings, I didn’t hear, let alone read one iota, innuendo of these people (who are unfit to wear the uniform and the U.S. patch adorning their shoulder) taking orders from Pres. Bush & V.P. Cheney to do the atrocious acts in which they participated.

I didn’t find ANY support for your claim of ‘..clear orders’.

Yet, Pres. Bush acting as a true leader should and took the heat.

Teleprompter Guy’s response if in the same situation may have been, ‘This isn’t the same Army I know’.

Pastor, is there any other form of ‘history’ you’re rewriting to further your vile cause?

There’s a limit to one’s intelligence though stupidity is infinite..

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:33 pm 85. BC:

Torture is torture, and if there was any useful intel that came out of it (very, very unlikely despite recent claims because if that was the case, this info would have come out in some form while Bush was in power), it would be laughably outweighed by both the loss of international stature by the US, as well as being a recruiting tool by the enemies of the “Great Satan”.

While I can see where Obama wanted to go with this — admit to bad past behavior and then move on — this was going to be a no win situation once he opened that door: a battle between conservatives & right wingers claiming that torture works and parsing whatever misleading factoids, usually out of context, they can dredge up on the Internet to support their points, and liberals & leftists who don’t see torture as being the right tool at any time and demanding prosecution of any government and military personnel who conducted or sanctioned it. Of course dirtbag Cheney would stick his lying ass two bits in to make things worse (gawd, historians are so going to wonder why he and Bush didn’t have both their butts served up on impeachment plates.)

Obama really needs to stick to his plan — prosecuting Bush era people would likely only open a lot of other bad news doors best left for non-government researchers and journalists (if we have any of those left) to explore and explain.

Apr 24, 2009 - 10:31 pm 86. clarice:

#77 I suspect you haven’t read the report of those trials . Read them.. Begala was making stuff up again. (And I don’t care what McCain said, he was not right if Begala happened to quote him correctly.)
The soldiers involved were not executed (Begala error 1)

The Japanese soldiers were not given sentences for waterboarding alone–waterboarding was only part of a series of activities they’d employed (error #2); the procedures they used were really torture–they would pour water on the men and demand that they answer questions. They were beaten if they didn’t. When the men tried to respond the prisoners mouths and noses would fill with with water until they fell unsconscious .Thus They’d be beaten if they didn’t answer and would be filled with water if they tried to.Once the soldiers fell unconscious, the Japanese would beat their stomachs to force the water out. The Japanese were doing this to legitimate prisoners of war as to whom they were bound under the Geneva Conventions not to seek more than name, rank or serial number–not illegal combatants who have not such protection .

After all these years of non-stop lying, Begala is not worth listening to, let alone repeating as a credible source for anything.

The methods they used were not those we used. We used a technique we use on thousands of our own troops in the SERE program, The waterboardings were done on only three men who were illegal combatants. They were done under medical monitoring to be certain there was no injury. They were done only when we believed the men were withholding important information we needed to save lives not for sadistic means.

Apr 25, 2009 - 4:44 am 87. rance:

Erasmus from what I read was Roman Catholic.
The Church of Rome was quite fond of torture (the “rack”, etc.) In fact we used to call that period of history when it “openly” tortured all who did not agree with it the “Dark Ages.” Now, we have a numbnut who calls himself “erasmus” redefining torture to make the rest of the world as guilty as the “Great Whore.” He/she also quotes C.S. Lewis, an ecumenist, who by his embrace of the Papacy must have condoned the Inquisition.

Numbnuts who live in glass cathedrals shouldn’t throw stones!

Apr 25, 2009 - 6:18 am 88. clarice:

For those interested in this issue. the brilliant Noemie Emery has a wonderful thought–Bring it on!
”

Some Democrats, from the White House on down, are pushing the idea of a “truth commission,” à la South Africa, to deal with the “harsh measures” used by the Bush administration in interrogating al Qaeda detainees. Good. Let’s have lots of truthtelling. Please bring it on.

Let’s tell the truth about Bush’s conduct of the war on terror, which is that it’s been a success. His ultimate legacy hasn’t been written–Iraq is improved, but not out of danger–but the one thing that can be said without reservation is that the country was kept safe. He delivered on the main charge of his office in time of emergency, in a crisis without guidelines or precedent. Attacks took place in Spain, and in London, in Indonesia and India, but not on American soil, which was the obvious target of choice. Bush couldn’t say this before he left office, for obvious reasons, and after he left, attention switched to the new president. This little fact dropped down the memory hole, but with all this discussion, it will rise to the surface. Let the hearings begin! ”

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/016/422ggyuo.asp

Apr 25, 2009 - 6:45 am 89. tommyd:

:Thank you clarice .
Your post serves to point out the agenda of the left. To massage the facts to support their political agenda. From all the MSM attention I was under the impression we must have waterboarded the whole freakin country.
But wait, it was not that many, not thousands, not hundreds , not even a full handfull.

Why would it be of any surprise to anyone that Begala would misrepresent facts from 50 years ago? Of course the faithful of the left will take anything he says as 100% truth.

Just ask any former citizen from Eastern Europe block countries what they see going on in the U.S. now. They will tell you whats up. The’ve been there and done that Socialism thing already. The will be the first to speak out and say they can’t understand why the heck America is letting itself move that direction. They came to America to escape from Socialism / Communism , and they say plainly we are fools for allowing this to get started here.

This witch hunt is straight out of the Socialist manifesto .

Apr 25, 2009 - 7:19 am 90. trangbang68:

Look at his picture on the front page. How do you degrade a nasty, flea-bitten sneering degenerate nihilist pig like KSM?
The Japanese murdered prisoners, induced disease into healthy non-combatants, did quack surgeries a la Mengele, starved people to death, raped women in captive nations. To compare their methods to those of our men only shows the rabid anti American hatred practiced by the left in the Obama administration.
This will have no good end. You sow the wind and reap the whirlwind.

Apr 25, 2009 - 7:43 am 91. Sebastian Shaw:

BC (#85) “Torture is torture…”

Loud music? Sleep deprivation? Water boarding?

This is not torture. Teens regularly do this type of thing on a voluntary basis. Water boarding prevented an LA type 9/11. And countless other attacks. It’s effective.

Liberals want to give terrorists a lawyer & treat their terrorist activities as if it were a crime such as a bank robbery. It’s not. This will only cause more harm to the CIA & give the terrorists rights they shouldn’t possess since they are not Americans.

Apr 25, 2009 - 8:25 am 92. mr. burns:

Wow, sever mental pain is torture. I never woulda guesed . So every time I had to take a latin test in the 8th grade I was being tortured and never knew it. The first time I had to stand up and teach a class I was torturing myself !!!

Degradation is torture too . So when one gets sick and cant dress or wash oneself then its torture !! Oh the horror .

And I guess when ones time runs out and natural death arrives then voila: mental pain (at least for lefty scum) and physical degradation. More torture ?

You lefties are nuts ! After you destroy this country whats next ?

Apr 25, 2009 - 8:31 am 93. imyou:

Mr. Obama has never been a leader, he is an agitator. He leaves the hard work of accountability, honor and loyalty to whomever and/or whatever it takes to make him blameless or victorious according to the demands of his poll driven selfish power.

I’m not surprised that key members of this administration now claim they didn’t read, hear, or comprehend the laws they backed regarding torture or any other decision that requires a historical rewrite. Maybe all the botox, plastic surgery, trips, money deals, book deals, etc., etc. is too demanding. Most of their time is spent on personal power-building at the expense of national security. Term limits for everyone.

Apr 25, 2009 - 8:57 am 94. Paul of Alexandria:

BC (85):

Torture is torture, and if there was any useful intel that came out of it (very, very unlikely despite recent claims because if that was the case, this info would have come out in some form while Bush was in power), it would be laughably outweighed by both the loss of international stature by the US, as well as being a recruiting tool by the enemies of the “Great Satan”.

As with Erasmus, please define “Torture”. President Bush went out of his way to assure that the techniques that US forces used were not counted under the definition of torture.

As for “useful intel”, haven’t you been paying attention recently? Due to the take from the detainees that were waterboarded US forces were able to stop at least one major attack.

“International Status” is an interesting concept. Please show me one example of another nation that treats us better because we feel guilty about using intensive interrogation techniques. All of these nations use such techniques, if not far worse, themselves; often on their own citizens as well as on captured fighters. Nations respect power and determination, especially in the Middle East. Certainly citizens of other nations like us because we offer international assistance and disaster relief, and are generally good guys, but that has very little to do with diplomatic relations. The only thing that Obama is accomplishing with this is to make us appear weaker in the eyes of our enemies.

Apr 25, 2009 - 9:04 am 95. fred:

I say to the cultural Marxists: “Bring it on!”

Let’s have the hearings and trails, with full discovery and all exculpatory evidence allowed. As they say, let it ALL hang out.

This is a fight the nation has been building towards, since the days when the first Jewish Russian immigrants who turned to Communism stuck in to our institutions of media, law, and education. When the Communists first began to educate our youth and send them on their missions from Antonio Gramsci. There is a rot at the core of our society, because we have needed to have this fight. The Left is at war with us, and we had best strap on the armor and fight them hard to the finish. Because if we lose this fight, we lose it all. Our liberty. Our prosperity. What remains of our Judaeo-Christian civilization. In fact all of what can indeed be called “civilized” hangs in the balance of this war we are in with the Marxists.

We cannot and will not be able to defeat Islam unless and until we win this war with the Marxists. We MUST win this political war, for if we do not win it politically, we will have to take up arms and carry out rebellion/civil war.

I was talking about these things with a brother-in-law of mine yesterday as we were in a waiting room at a hospital while my mother’s life was hanging in the balance during heart surgery. We both agreed that rebellion will be a very ugly thing, but it is the absolute last resort, when all other means have failed. We have got to roll up our sleeves and get to work, because if we do not we most certainly will have to pick up the rifle and kill the Marxists in our country in order to preserve the Republic.

The president was supposedly responding to pressure from the ACLU to release this information. For those who are deficient of factual history, for your information the ACLU is a Communist front organization that was founded by Prof. Roger Baldwin, himself a member of the Communist Party for a good part of his career. When the Communists are calling the shots, which they most certainly are right now, we are in great danger.

I am most anxious about all of this because I used to be a Marxist at one time. I know what their aims are and how they have these layers of deception in order to cloak those goals. I think one of the reasons why I left the Left back in ‘87 was because I was seeing through the phoniness of these people and I refused to follow their “suggestions” to call myself a “progressive” or a “liberal” when in fact I was quite cognizant of the provenance of the ideas I was embracing and exploring.

Now, I despise these people. I see what they are doing to my country and I love my country and its heritage. I know what they are doing with the U.S. Constitution: they want it GONE.

Motto of my state: “Live free or die.”

Apr 25, 2009 - 9:30 am 96. fred:

Oh, and one more thing about the way the Left preens about “torture.” They said squat about what the Iraqi Baathists did with torture. They and their U.N. lackeys said and say nothing about the torture – the real kind – that has happened and continues to happen in totalitarian regimes. No one indicts those monsters and threatens them with arrest warrants issued from Brussels or some other Eurabian shithole.

Every day the stink of these people becomes more nauseating and intolerable.

Apr 25, 2009 - 9:54 am 97. tanstaafl:

Attorney General Eric Holder (pardon of Mark Rich, pardon of terrorists under Clinton, underling to Janet Reno) hardly has adequate credentials to conduct an inquiry into lawyerly opinions during the Bush administration relative to torture.

It’s a witch hunt, promoted by moveon.org and the ACLU, with an apparently beholden President yielding ground. (briefly, Obama re-flipped yesterday and said no separate commissions will be set up)

Keep open the possibility of a re-re-flip flop.

John Conyers and Patrick Leahy are nuts. Nancy Pelosi (likely nuts, as well) has conveniently “forgotten” all the very specific briefings on interrogation techniques she received 2002-2006, and to which she did not object at the time. A select group of Senators and Representatives was kept apprised, in detail, of what the CIA was doing to and with the prisoners.

Currently, the detainees at Guantanamo, so called “high value” and otherwise, provide employment for an entire phalanx of otherwise unemployable ACLU lawyers.

Some of those detainees have asked for martyrdom, but the crummy lawyers insist on endless paperwork to keep their meal tickets alive and breathing.

Detainees are being used like monkey puppets in lawyerly games.

Rotten, foul infidels, I couldn’t ever imagine I’d be agreeing with KSM.

Apr 25, 2009 - 10:51 am 98. tanstaafl:

When the Communists first began to educate our youth and send them on their missions from Antonio Gramsci…The Left is at war with us, and we had best strap on the armor and fight them hard to the finish. Because if we lose this fight, we lose it all.

Have you seen this ex-KGB guy on video ?

Nothing like hearing it from the horse’s mouth.

On Ideological Indoctrination – Part 2

(part I is worth listening to as well, see the origins of the thought of contemporary journalists, actors, professors et al.)

Apr 25, 2009 - 11:11 am 99. Dave Surls:

“BEGALA: We — our country executed Japanese soldiers who water- boarded American POWs. We executed them for the same crime that we are now committing ourselves. How do you defend that?”

No, we didn’t execute Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American POWs. Begala is a liar.

What we did do is execute and imprison Japanese soldiers for doing stuff like burning POWs (and civilians) with lit cigarettes and then chopping their heads off, but it’s the chopping heads off part that got them executed.

Begala is a typical liberal Democrat. A total liar.

Apr 25, 2009 - 12:11 pm 100. Eric Florack:

Is waterboarding torture?

No.

Apr 25, 2009 - 12:14 pm 101. paul_unalaska:

Recently on CNN an ACLU lawyer gave Teleprompter Guy an ‘ A+ ‘ on his ahem..job – so far! Yep, I was in shock as well… sigh

Apr 25, 2009 - 1:27 pm 102. not so fast:

Sean Hannity says he’s willing to be waterboarded for charity. Any bets on whether he’ll do it? I say no.

Apr 25, 2009 - 3:16 pm 103. not so fast:

From the greatest president of this century, maybe ever;

Ronald Reagan’s signing statement ratifying the UN Convention on Torture from 1984:
“The United States participated actively and effectively in the negotiation of the Convention . It marks a significant step in the development during this century of international measures against torture and other inhuman treatment or punishment. Ratification of the Convention by the United States will clearly express United States opposition to torture, an abhorrent practice unfortunately still prevalent in the world today.

Apr 25, 2009 - 3:23 pm 104. steveg:

Once again, Democrats/Liberals cannot be trusted with National Security.

Apr 25, 2009 - 5:55 pm 105. fred:

Define torture.

Apr 25, 2009 - 6:58 pm 106. The Shadow:

Just to settle the issue of whether or not waterboarding is torture, I think those who say it is not should agree to be waterboarded 183 times. If after that they say it was like a walk in the park, I will agree it is not torture

Apr 25, 2009 - 7:16 pm 107. tightloops:

Has anyone considered that the ONLY reason that Obama released this information is to change the topic of conversation…….like did you know the FDIC is broke, the FED is printing money like a maniac to buy back TBills (how stupid is that???—apparently all TB investors think its stupid because no one is selling) and the Stimules is a big fat flop?????
Even members of his own party were beginning to question his recent moves and spending…..not to mention the cap and trade idiocy that is a giant tax ALL Americans will pay and business will just pick up and move to a country that has no green restrictions….like Mexico, and Asia. Now that everyone is off subject, he has time to reconoiter the troops. He had to do something big quick and this was the Bunker Buster he had planned to use later in his term……..God knows what he will do next time he gets in too deep. I haven’t spoken with one person, not even my VERY liberal md who thinks that ultimately got have to protect the people no matter what. Any idiot who thinks otherwise is a fool and dangerous. I hardly think the terrorists in Fallujah considered using waterboarding when they tortured, maimed and hung the captured American soldiers. IT IS INSANE TO PLAY NICE WITH TERRORISTS. I say do what ever is necessary but get and confirm the information. They never did and never will offer the same consideration to our military, or the Daniel Pearls or other poor fools who ventured into their chambers. Hack, saw, hack and tape it for the world to see. Are you people in denial or just plain ignorant?????

Apr 25, 2009 - 8:26 pm 108. mshatto:

Leftists support the murder of the unborn. Is there really any comparison to the waterboarding of two mass murderers?

Apr 25, 2009 - 8:46 pm 109. 888:

Obama and his attorney general, supported by mainstream media, Democrats in Congress and the liberal establishment, are doing their best to deflect the focus from Obama’s refusal to submit his birth certificate to prove once and for all that he is, indeed, a natural-born US citizen as REQUIRED by the US Constitution. They will continue to talk about inheriting problems from Bush and targeting “the last 8 years” so that everyone will stop questioning Obama’s citizenship problem.

The “Truth Commission” should start by finding the truth about Obama’s eligibility to be US president and to uncover what it is Obama is hiding in his sealed medical and university records.

The more we go after Obama with regards to this birth certificate issue, the more his administration and Democrats in Congress (Leahy, Pelosi) will concoct baloney charges against the Bush Administration.

They are creating this scare tactic and drama over potentially prosecuting Bush officials so that we will forget (or drop) the call for the truth about Obama’s past and eligibility under the Constitution.

Don’t let them scare you away from uncovering the truth about Obama, and don’t let them blackmail us into dropping the many lawsuits aimed at forcing Obama to be truthful and honest.

Apr 25, 2009 - 8:48 pm 110. jaybob:

I have to admit when I read the interrogations memos that were declassified I don’t see how one could defined the methods approved as torture. Real wimpy stuff to say the least, and an amazing code of restraint on the part of the interrogators. If those methods are torture, then I am being tortured everyday by the thought of Obama’s stimulus bill bankrupting our economy or raising taxes to pay for it. So let me get this straight the new definition of torture is being uncomfortable and not getting any sleep? I was also disappointed in the water boarding part. I always thought that to do that right you tied the subject to a chair which was mounted on the end of a long board like a teeter-totter. Then they dunked the subject into the river or a pool. This stuff is nothing compared to the Spanish Inquisitions of old. Now that’s real torture. If you knew that the prisoner had knowledge of where an attack could take place on American soil. And you also knew that such an attack could kill hundreds if not thousands innocent civilians and maybe even your own loved ones. I fear I wouldn’t have the restraint the interrogators had. I think this is a losing battle for the Democrats especially when Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reed signed off on it. They all supported it before it became unpopular through media’s misrepresentation of the interrogators method by calling it torture. But through all this I think the awesome news is that because of Obama’s idiotic stupidity in releasing the memos this may actually help vindicate Bush in the long run. People have suffered more going to public schools. Everyone needs to read the memos that were released for a good laugh.

Apr 25, 2009 - 11:58 pm 111. supercars:

Terrorism must be avoided what ever it takes. i hate terrorism.

Apr 26, 2009 - 12:37 am 112. RightwingHippyChick:

What goes round comes round. No doubt 0bama will find out in 8 year’s time that the next president coming in might well continue his newfangled tradition of persecuting the opposition they displaced.

Apr 26, 2009 - 2:06 am 113. clarice:

As for Sullivan and Noah–the definitive refutation by Thiessen:

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=ZDE5YTNmZTg5OWUyOTlkMGUxOTk3OGMxY2I4ZDQ4YWQ=

Shadow, youhaven’t been paying attention–no one was waterboarded 183 times.

Apr 26, 2009 - 4:59 am 114. MikeD:

It is not that Shadow has not been paying attention. He is uttering distortions and lies like a Paul Begala or a James Carville. That is simply what Democrats and Liberals do. You can take that to the bank.

Apr 26, 2009 - 9:04 am 115. clarice:

As for the Wash Post (NYTimes) lies about the effectiveness of the waterboarding and the number of times KSM was waterboarded (5), Steve Gilbert has traced that whole line of lies back to an anonymous source to the Post..http://sweetness-light.com/archive/wp-effectiveness-of-harsh-questioning-unclear

Apr 26, 2009 - 12:40 pm 116. Paul -Indiana:

#8. If there is another major attack I hope it’s in DC so those clowns can experience the problem they created.

Apr 27, 2009 - 5:10 am 117. MO:

If waterboarding is torture? What is tasering a drunk college kid? What about handcuffs? They cut into your wrists & leave a rash.

Seriously, tho. Where is Mccain? Wasnt he tortured in Vietnam? Has he lost his back bone?

Obama needs to read, “Where The Orange Blossoms”.

Apr 28, 2009 - 10:57 am 118. MikeHu:

Hypothetical: A lucky break of intelligence alerts you that Al Qaeda is in the process of sneaking a 10KT nuclear weapon, from North Korea, Iran or the former Soviet Union, in a shipping container to the Port of Los Angeles. All you know is that it may be on the scene, or almost on the scene, now. Your team has captured an Al Qaeda member with ties to the suspected nuke users. You are well aware of the potential effects of such a weapon detonation would be in the US
You try to get information about the timing and location of the plot by using traditional “Pastor of Muppets” and “Erasmus” methods. You get no actionable information. You then… (1) walk away and say to yourself, “Well, at least we tried, but I sure feel good about not waterboarding the terrorist” …just before you briefly notice the blinding light and heat, as you, your wife, children, their friends, your parents, your aunts and uncles, the friendly guy across the street with the “COEXIST” sticker on his Prius, your dog, your cat, etc. are all incinerated, heavily irradiated, or buried in tons of rubble; or (2) fight the battle to stay alive and fight again another day. It’s that simple. Oh, your wife is calling from Munger, Tolles & Olson in downtown LA – a plane has hit the building below her, and she doesn’t know what to do. There’s a lot of smoke… hard to breathe…

Apr 28, 2009 - 2:45 pm 119. MikeHu:

I guess my point is worthless, since I am horrible at posting links.

Apr 28, 2009 - 2:50 pm

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Playing Partisan Politics with Terrorists and Torture

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