Pajamas Media

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1. Obama's Election: A Sea Of Shattered Assumptions (News And Weblog Roundup):

[...] –Pajamas Media’s Bridget Johnson: As voters stepped into the polls, they came armed with their opinions, their emotions, their gut feelings, their peer pressure, their community organizers’ suggestions and a variety of other decision-making tools that will never supplant bare-bones knowledge on the issues. [...]

Nov 5, 2008 - 1:38 am 2. beerstine:

I’m a firm believer that you watch what a candidate says in the primaries to find out what they really believe, and what they say in the general election is how far they will go to tell you what you want to hear.

He’s always wanted out of Iraq and now he has domestic political cover to do it. He will cite budget and economic pressures and reduced attacks there to speed up the Iraq withdrawal, with or without a plan to counter Iranian meddling in Iraq. The Iranians can bide their time until we leave to resume undermining the Iraqi government and ethnic tensions there. I doubt there will we will have more than a token presence there a year from now.

Some troops may be shifted to Afghanistan for PR purposes, but with little impact on the situation there. All the Pakistan talk is probably just an attempt to sound macho, he won’t do much more than Bush there…too volatile.

Despite his professed support for Israel, he has exhibited far more sympathy for the Palestinian cause in his previous career, which will be exploited by Hezbollah and Hamas with more rocket and suicide attacks. Until Israel elects a new government it will be hamstrung in its efforts to respond to external threats from Iran who will gladly underwrite a new round of limited warfare to gauge how far Obama will go to support Israel while it continues its nuclear program. When push comes to shove, Obama will shove Israel aside in the name of “peace (in our time?)”

Putin may attempt another limited aggression, but can’t sustain much militarily as long as energy prices remain down. If prices skyrocket again, Georgia will be made into a puppet state, with the Baltics and Ukraine on notice that they will be too unless they play ball with Moscow. Obama will ask the U.N. to do something. They won’t.

I suspect Al-Qaeda will re-emerge with an attack against a soft target somewhere overseas. Enough to get people’s attention and see if Obama will respond with more force than Clinton did. If he doesn’t, then we are really vulnerable to another major domestic attack, and that will end the fiction once and for all that Obama is serious about national security.

Nov 5, 2008 - 2:10 am 3. Mike Garrett:

It always amazes me how many of you ‘cousins’ across the pond, live in an upside down,’Alice in Wonderland’, world. Perhaps it is growing up in classrooms with only maps of the USA on the wall. I don’t suppose you realise how out-of-step you appear to just about the whole of the rest of the world! For a start ‘Hamas is a terrorist’ organisation! Is it? So what constitutes a national resistance army then? ‘Israel’s very existence in jeopardy’ Really? The most powerful country in the region with its countless weapons of mass destruction, occupying land in violation of UN resolutions for decades. Mmm, no sign of a ‘coalition of the willing’ to address that injustice then… Before you say it, I am not anti-American. I have good American friends and love your music, cinema and literature but (sadly) detest that ‘American exceptionalism’ which conditions so much of your foreign policy. Let me put this bluntly, you are no different to any other country and God (should she exist) has no special plan for your country! Shock, I know, but something your country will have to come to terms with as it slips from it’s position of global dominance through the next century! So I wish you well and hope that your new president show you something the rest of the world realised a long time ago, Socialism has answers to questions that good old free-booting capitalism has failed miserably to answer. Why do you think you are in such a bad state economically (and have dragged the rest of us down with you). Wake up America and smell the Java. You don’t have all 9or even most) of the answers!

Nov 5, 2008 - 2:24 am 4. syn:

Even in this dangergous world it can never again be said that America is a racist country.

The good thing about this election, Racism in America has offically ended.

Nov 5, 2008 - 2:25 am 5. Photo9710:

Respond to Syn: Racism in America has officially ended? Maybe, but we still have long way to go due to discrimination. I am still being discriminated at my work & in the public because I am Deaf. When I want to open up my own business, Hearing’s first reaction, “OH you cannot communicate, why should you?”. Racism might end but we still have long way to go for Discriminate.

Nov 5, 2008 - 2:42 am 6. Nick Leicester:

Having watched the red turn to blue all night I was revitalised in the early hours by the best acceptance speech I have ever heard.
After eight years of the incoherent, mumbling, ignorant terrorist in the White House I am overjoyed by the prospect of a fluent, articulate, intelligent, caring, good looking, young man who has an apparently lovely family being in the Oval Office. Well done America in electing in the brightest dawn we have had for many a decade.

Nov 5, 2008 - 3:47 am 7. wpb:

Nick – painting himself as the messiah to win an election is one thing; governing and leading is another. I doubt the rest of the world will be as enamored with Obama’s personal charisma and ideology as you are. Outside forces will shape, influence, and constrain his foreign policy options. (hint: there are real terrorists out there and they don’t live in a White House) Are you suggesting that the anti-American attitude in much of Europe now goes away? We’ll see – I suspect it will rear it’s head again when the honeymoon wears off or the first real decision is made.

Mike – I would suggest you read some of the articles here before you lecture us on benefits of socialism. I haven’t been able to figure out how that is sustained in a Europe with zero population growth. Better yet, when Sharia Law is finally implemented in your hometown, tell us how that works for you. That American exceptionalism you snidely refer to has helped bail out the “other side of the pond” more than a few times the past 100 years or so. Cheering on the decline you so gleefully anticipate under our new leader doesn’t make sense either: have you heard of the global economy? Even the Chinese, our newest global rival, doesn’t want a US in decline that as we’re their biggest customer. Have another pint.

Read Beerstine above for more sober analysis of what will likely happen.

Nov 5, 2008 - 5:05 am 8. Mike Garrett:

Thanks for the offer of a pint. wpb. Cheers. If only some of your compatriots were so well informed about the rest of the world I am sure they wouldn’t be so quick to assume they are the only ones with answers! Take Iran, how many of you know why there is no functioning secular democracy there? Did you know it had a perfectly acceptable democracy up until the early fifties when your country (and mine, for it’s sins)couldn’t accept their free election of a socialist who wanted to nationalise the main oil extractor (now British Petroleum, formerly the British-Persian Oil Company) which was exporting the lion’s share of their oil profits. So our two ‘bastions of democracy and freedom’ jointly financed a coup which freed a Nazi collaborator from an Iranian jail and put in him in charge. The first Shah! Hurrah! So having replaced a secular democracy with a dictatorship, do you not think our wonderful coutries should now bow their heads in shame for our actions? Or should we abandon the fiction that we really care who has freedom, and carry on assuming we have the answers to everything? BTW, socialism has given us, in Europe, a fantastic healthcare system which costs around a twentieth of yours. Lastly, has the recent demise of your free-booting unregulated capitalism taught you folk nothing?

Nov 5, 2008 - 5:52 am 9. R a Z o R:

May God continue to bless America and keep us

safe . May God bless President Obama to make the

correct decisions .

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:04 am 10. Mike Garrett:

Sorry, had to add this. “Read Beerstine above for more sober analysis”. Sober? Deluded! How can anyone accuse the Iranians of ‘meddling’ in the country next door, when it is the USA (from halfway around the world) who first sold Saddam Hussein the WMD to attack Iran with, then changed their mind and invaded Iraq. Does Beerstine know that Iranians are Shia and most of the Shia holiest sites are in Iraq, or that Shia make up the majority of the Iraqi population. So does Beerstine think that it is meddling for America to finance coups in Latin America or to train ‘terrorists’ to attack Nicaragua or Cuba 9oh, sorry, forgot, those are ‘freedom fighters’). No wonder American foreign policy is viewed with such dismay by so many countries. It appears to be based on idealogy and not on facts!

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:06 am 11. Mary Madigan:

Lastly, has the recent demise of your free-booting unregulated capitalism taught you folk nothing?

Has the recent demise of Iceland and the free fall of Euro taught you social democrats nothing?

The manipulations of Iran’s politics were part of the cold war game we were all playing with the Russians. Was that ‘freely elected’ socialist backed by the Russians? You betcha.

The middle east is still the chessboard for various trade/wargames. Was socialist Saddam Hussein backed by the Russians, the French and the Germans? Is Hamas backed by the Saudis and the Brit/Europeans in their efforts to take their ‘ally’, America, down a few pegs? You betcha.

Oh, and you ask “For a start ‘Hamas is a terrorist’ organisation! Is it? So what constitutes a national resistance army then?”

Hamas is the elected leadership of Gaza. So who are they ‘resisting’, themselves? Abbas and his Terror inc. groups? Hamas has probably killed more Palestinian people than Israelis, so I guess that’s what constitutes a national resistance army.

Your arguments are transparent, oft repeated and boring. Unlike most Democrats, Republicans actually know something about foreign policy.

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:14 am 12. Kevin:

Mike G:
Please name one country where socialism has “worked.”
Also, which countries have the highest standard of living on earth? Are they predominantly socialist?

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:27 am 13. Mike Garrett:

Hi Mary. Well argued for a Republican, if wrong. The collapse of the financial house of cards (including Iceland) began in Wall street didn’t it? With the collapse of your sub-prime market. Here in the ‘post modern’ world of Europe we tend to take a more objective (and some might say, balanced) view of world politics. We were never so polarised as you folk and the world was never seen as simplistic as a battle between the West and Russia (or between good and evil). I guess that comes from being less brain-washed by biblical fairy tales. In Europe, we tend to be more nuanced and non-partisan. Take terrorism for instance. Does the guy who blew up a plane full of inncocent civilians on a flight to Cuba deserve to be treated as a hero and be protected by your country? Or is terrorism only what the ‘other side’ do?

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:43 am 14. RE:

There’s a reason all of America’s enemies supported an Obama victory.

Freedom lovers around the world have suffered a huge setback this day.

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:44 am 15. Saltherring:

Mike Garrett:

Lets hope Europes’s “fantastic healthcare system” can protect its citizens when slum-dwelling Islamic terrorists decide to blow up a few train stations and government offices. I’m quite certain Europe will embrace and learn to enjoy all the culture and liberty of Sharia Law.

Or perhaps Putin will decide to march his armies to Paris for a weekend picnic? Be sure to greet him, Parisians, with your customary white flags, as the Ruskies will certainly require them as napkins. They are, as Berliners can attest, quite civilized.

Defend yourselves? “Heavens, no, we have no armies and have squandered our money on ‘feel-good’ social programs. “America has defended us for generations. We shall call Mr. Obama, he will rush to our aid.” “White House, can I help you? Europe is under attack? I’m dreadfully sorry, but American no longer has a military and the President is having tea in the Rose Garden with the Palistinians. Please call again some other time.”

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:46 am 16. Mike Garrett:

Hi Kevin. Again, we are up against a polarised versus nuanced way of thinking. I never said socialism has ‘worked’ or that it has all the answers. Just that it has made some significant contributions to human well-being. In this country it has given us universal healthcare, provision for the poor and a co-operative attitude to our neighbouring democracies. Even in countries with right-wing governments, these things are still seen as benefits to our societies. Here, we don’t have your visceral hatred of anything left-wing.

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:53 am 17. Mary Madigan:

The collapse of the financial house of cards (including Iceland) began in Wall street didn’t it?

If the social democrats were half as wise, culturally superior and ‘nuanced’ as they thought they were, they would have used bricks (or at least some plywood) for their house. Instead, they used cards.

The Euro is falling faster than the dollar and Gordon Brown is prostituting himself to get some easy money from the Sauds. Who looks stupid now?

We were never so polarised as you folk and the world was never seen as simplistic as a battle between the West and Russia (or between good and evil)

Is that why Britain is giving in to Russia’s efforts to bully British Petroleum? Is that why they’ve never prosecuted anyone for Vlad’s efforts to poison half of London with polonium 210? Yeah, it’s because you’re so nuanced.

You’re playing the same game as we are, you just play it badly.

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:59 am 18. Mike Garrett:

Hi Saltherring. Is it worth pointing out to you that America came into both world wars late, that it was quite neutral at best and pro-German at worst during the last bash and that it only became involved after Pearl Harbour when it needed the rest of us to help it beat the Japanese (which us Brits were already fighting anyway. Here we always find it curious how easily you re-write history. Your movies hardly feature us in World War Two. And what are you babbling about when you talk about Sharia Law and socialism? It sounds as if you are suffering froma touch of the Sarah Palins. Can’t see any connection!

Nov 5, 2008 - 7:02 am 19. Mike Garrett:

Hi Mary. Firstly, I am not a Social Democrat. Or a communist, or a socialist. This is what I mean by ‘nuanced’. Like many of my fellow Europeans, I don’t believe in ‘absolutist’ thinking. That is what I mean by ‘nuanced’. We tend to see our world in a more pragmatic and relativistic way. I notice you conveniently ‘missed’ my point about where this financial crisis began. I guess the truth hurts. Gordon Brown wouldn’t have to be prostituting himself if so many of your greedy captialists hadn’t thought they could make even more profit lending 125% mortgage funds to people with no visible source of income! So was it socialism for Bush to bail out those irresponsible banks? Given Obama’s recent election victory, it seems as if a lot of your fellow Americans are equally fed-up with eight years of absolutist thinking! Viva the change! At least you sleep well at night knowing we aren’t plotting to subvert your government. And for your information, we are still trying to prosecute the polonium guy. Just that Putin (remember Bush looked into his eyes and said he could trust him) has decided to resurrect Russian greatness by bumping off his enemies. Something I am sure the Americans would never contemplate! ha ha

Nov 5, 2008 - 7:48 am 20. Michael:

Hi Mike. I must say I disagree with most of what you have said. I know several people from several countries in Europe that are not so enamored with socialized medicine. Particularly when they live in a good sized city but must travel by ambulance for an hour or more to find a hopsital. Also I was interested to hear of the diagnosis of ASDS (Adult Sudden Death Syndrom) that is the “cause of death” of a good number of people. That would scare the hell out of me if no one was finding out what the cause of death was so more prevention could be sought.

As for coming late to WW I and WW II, considering we had no bombs dropping on our heads or tanks running down our streets I think we did just fine showing up at all. I have some doubts about help coming the other direction if the situations were reversed.

By the way, demeaning people by calling their beliefs faiy tales helps your cause not at all. There is far to much belittling people that disagree with you in this world. Isn’t that what you are acusing the US of doing to your political views across the pond from us?

Nov 5, 2008 - 7:54 am 21. Saltherring:

Regards, Mike.
I notice you make no mention in your “response” of America’s continued presence on European soil, as a protector from potential threat of Soviet aggression (1945-1990) and at present from a re-’energized’ Russia. We did stem the tide of the German offensive in 1918 after Europe bled itself for four futile years, and contributed mightily (with the Soviets) to the effort to defeat Italy, Germany and Japan in WWII. Britain would have starved without America, perhaps in both wars, and never would have prevailed against the Germans in WWII. And, yes, I do recall the Brits were “already fighting” against the Japanese. Ah, yes, Singapore, the ‘Gibraltar of the East’ it was called. I have the utmost respect for Winston Churchill and the British people of that period, but take great offense at your “pro-German at worst comment”. Britain was virtually bankrupt in 1940 when FDR and Congress passed “Lend Lease”, transferred 50 WWI destroyers to Britain, and retooled Remington factories to produce Enfield rifles to replace those left on the beaches of Dunkirk. America fed and re-armed Britain, at the loss of many ships and lives. How much of the billions in war debt has Britain repaid? How soon they forget and proceed to “re-write” history.

And as far as the “socialism/Sharia Law” connection, you can certainly see how socialism and Islam have eroded Britain’s “stiff upper lip”, can’t you? You merely have to look in the mirror to do so. Britain has grown soft, with its judges claiming that embracing certain elements of Sharia law is inevitable. So have another ‘pint’ and revel in your delusions of grandeur.

Nov 5, 2008 - 7:56 am 22. john from cinncinati:

Mike Garret: is it just rewritten history that Australia celebrates the battle of the Coral Sea 6/6/42 were the Japanese advance into the Pacific came to a halt? it was American aircraft carriers. what about American Flying Tigers,Burma campaign, and Raf/Canadian/American pilots. for 50 points what was the lend lease program. Americans aren’t, at least i’m not to thrilled about passive generals like your Montgomery. shades of trench warfare, we have a history of passive generals who were replaced. Lincoln asked Mcclellan if he could borrow his army because it didn’t seem to be of any use to him.
The house over in Britain has already said ok for some of sharia law to be used. Mossedeq was coup out, but he was in a long list, doesn’t mean we weren’t there, we just took advantage. like Iran is doing now, its part of the game. they are good at what they do, sometimes they aren’t good at what we do.
hope that Obama changes on them too. if we can go on leftist traditions the useful idiots will begin to be purged out. the question is what is his true agenda? it seems like a wild rollercoaster ride is about to begin, then again it just might be teacups.

Nov 5, 2008 - 7:57 am 23. Mary Madigan:

Firstly, I am not a Social Democrat. Or a communist, or a socialist. This is what I mean by ‘nuanced’. Like many of my fellow Europeans, I don’t believe in ‘absolutist’ thinking. That is what I mean by ‘nuanced’. We tend to see our world in a more pragmatic and relativistic way.

Yes, you all share the need to blame America for your problems rather than fixing them yourselves.

As a result of this lassitude and your reactionary anti-Americanism, your problems remain unsolved. You have no idea how to deal with Russian aggression or economic distress. Instead, you continue to depend on the hated Americans (or the Sauds, the Russians and their Iranian friends) to solve everything.

You expect a failed theory to work in the future when it has consistently failed in the past. This is what you call ‘pragmatism’? More proof that the concept of pragmatism has never crossed the Atlantic.

Nov 5, 2008 - 8:13 am 24. jonesy55:

@Saltherring

“How much of the billions in war debt has Britain repaid?”

It was finally paid off in full with interest a couple of years ago.

Nov 5, 2008 - 8:52 am 25. jonesy55:

“Particularly when they live in a good sized city but must travel by ambulance for an hour or more to find a hopsital.”

Does this actually happen??? Western Europeans live longer than Americans, you can’t get past that fact.

Nov 5, 2008 - 8:56 am 26. jerryofva:

Mike Garret:

There are so many idiotic and false statements in your post that I don’t have time to refute all it. I will focus on your denigration of American role in the World Wars and use the medical system as a proxy for socialism versus free markets.

Yes it is true that we were late comers to both WWI and WWII but lets look at how Europe got there in the first place. In 1914 Europe was just itching for a fight. Of course they all thought that it would be a short glorious war when Archduke Ferdinand was shot. You guys screwed it up and then proceeded to have one Picket’s Charge after another for four years until you nearly destroyed yourselves. Then Uncle Sam came to the rescue.

Now let’s look at how you got to the second go around. Your cowardly leaders refused to face up to the reality of Hitler. Ironically, when Hitler first attempted Anschloss it was Benito Mussolini who mobilized and stopped Hitler cold. Eventually Benito figured out that you were a bunch losers and through in with Hitler, despite despising the Germans. He wanted to go with a winner. Uncle Sam road to the rescue of a bunch screw ups again.

You haven’t changed since then either. When the 90’s rolled around you couldn’t even deal with a punk like Slobodan Milosevic. He had you peeing in your collective pants once again and as usual Uncle Sam raced to the rescue again.

Now to the healthcare issue. Ever look at the comparative survival rates for cancer in the United States and Europe? Cancer survival is a function of access to prompt diagnosis and the latest treatments. Here is a site that gives you the numbers:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/10/us-cancer-survival-rates-are-lowest-in.html

Pay close attention to your performance of your socialized system in the UK. It looks like the free market provides better access to medical care. A Medicaid patient in the US has a better chance of surviving cancer then all but richest British citizen.
Oh, one more thing, your attitude toward Hamas shows me that you are a typical European anti-Semite, what I have called the new neo-Nazis. You know what the difference between the new and old style Nazi is? The old kind didn’t mince words and pretend that they didn’t hate Jews. The new euro-Nazi is a shadow of his old self because he lacks the courage of his convictions. He wants someone else to do his dirty work.

The one good thing I see in an inwardly looking non-interventionist Obama foreign policy is that your freeloading days are over. Good luck in dealing with the Mullahs in Iran and Prime Minister Putin. You are going to need it because Uncle Barak isn’t going to run rescue again.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:01 am 27. Mike Garrett:

Hi All. So glad to have had such an entertaining debate. Lets work our way thru all of that. Firstly. Mary. Why do right-wingers always leap to the polarised viewpoint. Your response makes my point for me! You do the ‘either for us or against us’ bit! Can’t you deal with the ‘grey’ in the middle? Just because I have cause to be disturbed some of the American hypocrisies on foreign policy doesn’t mean I blame (or hate) America for everything. I am equally doubtful of some British actions! Why any criticism is automatically deemed unpatriotic (if from your own compatriots) or anti-american, if from outside, escapes me. Is it being brought up (some would say, ‘indoctrinated’) with the idea that America is such an exceptional country? That the USA is so unlike any other country that it is beyond criticism and shouldn’t have to abide by the same rules that other countries follow. Satherring next, so your continued presence on our soil is for OUR benefit is it? To protect us from what exactly? The busted-flush of Russian resurgence? I think it benefits the USA greatly to have it’s bases here. Such a useful place from which to bomb the shit out of such powerful foes as Libya and Syria. Frankly, like a lot of my fellow Europeans, we wish you would vacate them. Do you realise America has bombed forty countries since the end of the Second World War? You should visit somewhere else on the planet for a more balanced view sometime. I was in Cambodia a short while ago. Did you know that their ‘holocaust’ was caused by your compatriots? That the Kmer Rouge were a minuscule and well-contained insurgency till Nixon began illegally (he even lied to your own population about it)bombing Cambodia, driving the population into the arms of the communist guerrillas. The rest is history. Just like he ’saved’ the Vietnamese from communism by carpet bombing them too. My hope is that Obama is sincere when he says he wants a more co-operative approach to the world. We (the rest of humanity) could certainly do with that. John, again why does Sharia law (which I abhor as absolutism of even even worse kind) have anything to do with socialism? Sadly, your sources of information seem a tad askew. No-one is going to implement Sharia here. Because we, in this isle, are far too pragmatic to put up with it! Lastly, Michael. as a long-time student of religion, I could (given time) show you exactly where most of the myths in the bible came from, long before the Jews picked them up on their travels and incorporated them into their own history. As for beliefs, isn’t this where we came in? Obama’s beliefs in a fairer society don’t come from burning bushes, but if they did, I’m sure he could have garnered Palin’s support!

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:22 am 28. Mike Garrett:

Hi jerryofva. Well done on your knowledge of World War history. Now how well do you know your own countries history? How do you feel about America protecting, training and arming Somoza’s goons under dear old senile Ronnie Reagan and sending them back into Nicaragua to put mines in children’s toys? Oh, we were saving them from the commies eh? And as someone who has Jewish blood in his ancestry, and has many Jewish friends (who, strangely, think more like me then you)I take exception to the description of myself as a neo-nazi. Thanks for making my point about polarised thinking so explicit. To criticise Israel makes me anti-semitic and to criticise America makes me anti-American does it. So I suppose, by the same token, you are anti arab and anti-Eurpoean. The real world is never that simple my friend.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:34 am 29. Saltherring:

jonesy 55:

Please read the following:
On 31 December, the UK will make a payment of about $83m (£45.5m) to the US and so discharge the last of its loans from World War II from its transatlantic ally.

It is hard from a modern viewpoint to appreciate the astronomical costs and economic damage caused by this conflict. In 1945, Britain badly needed money to pay for reconstruction and also to import food for a nation worn down after years of rationing.

“In a nutshell, everything we got from America in World War II was free,” says economic historian Professor Mark Harrison, of Warwick University.

“The loan was really to help Britain through the consequences of post-war adjustment, rather than the war itself. This position was different from World War I, where money was lent for the war effort itself.”

America armed, fed and clothed Britain for nearly four years….for free. The debt you speak of was post war. American are grateful, however, to Britain for repayment.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:35 am 30. Saltherring:

I have determined that debating with Mike Garrett is much like conducting a firefight with an unarmed man. Therefore, I will leave him to his (warm) beer.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:43 am 31. jerryofva:

Mike Garret:

Typical leftist rant. Somoza was gone before Ronald Reagan was elected. If you mean the Contras, no they weren’t Somoza’s goons. If fact most of their leaders were originally Sandinistas. You are typical leftist idiot trying the moral equivalence game. Martin Heidegger, the unrepentant Nazi Minister of Education, started that one when asked to choose between the west which liberated Germany and the Soviets he chose the Soviets. Moral equivalence is a dodge used by the left to make their support of mass murderers look good. By the way William Shawncroft who started the US is responsible for the Cambodian Holocaust meme changed repudiated his original charge.

How do I do that you are anti-Semite. Because Hamas’s stated goal is the destruction of Israel and its people. Come on Mike, man-up and put your swastika on. You can do it. Oh I forgot, you are a euro-peon and have been unmanned.

I am also surprised that you didn’t jump to the defense of the NHS.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:48 am 32. Mary Madigan:

Just because I have cause to be disturbed some of the American hypocrisies on foreign policy doesn’t mean I blame (or hate) America for everything. I am equally doubtful of some British actions! Why any criticism is automatically deemed unpatriotic (if from your own compatriots) or anti-american, if from outside, escapes me. Is it being brought up (some would say, ‘indoctrinated’) with the idea that America is such an exceptional country? That the USA is so unlike any other country that it is beyond criticism and shouldn’t have to abide by the same rules that other countries follow.

I don’t think America is ‘better’ in every way than every other country in the world, but we are one of the few nations in the world that has a competent military force. That’s why we have to stick our nose in everyone’s business. Most of the nations in Western Europe couldn’t defend their borders from a raging army of Girl Scouts.

..and Western Europe is a powerhouse compared to the rest of the world (aside from Russia, North Korea and Israel, of course). If we didn’t have to pay for everyone’s defense, we could spend our own tax money on our own people.

Europe and Britain really do need to stop thinking that whining is an effective foreign policy. They need to stop expecting America to fight the bullies while they stand around and criticize. If they don’t like the way we’re doing things, show us better ideas by example.

Britain’s downfall is a particular shame. When Putin, Iran, the UAE, various pirates and the Saudis push them around, they need to show some spine. They’re British, for God’s sake.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:54 am 33. Anonymous:

“Now to the healthcare issue. Ever look at the comparative survival rates for cancer in the United States and Europe? Cancer survival is a function of access to prompt diagnosis and the latest treatments. Here is a site that gives you the numbers:

http://mjperry.blogspot.com/2007/10/us-cancer-survival-rates-are-lowest-in.html

Pay close attention to your performance of your socialized system in the UK. It looks like the free market provides better access to medical care. A Medicaid patient in the US has a better chance of surviving cancer then all but richest British citizen.”

Why focus on just one disease? you still can’t avoid the fact that Europeans live longer, less of our babies die and less people die premature deaths despite spending 50-60% LESS per head on healthcare than the US.

Nov 5, 2008 - 10:02 am 34. Josh:

The most dangerous thing Obama faces are the legions of Republican losers who can’t deal with harsh reality. And the consequences of giving the Republican monkeys power–2 lost wars and a broken economy. Now it’s time for the adults to come and take control again from the loser Republicans.

Nov 5, 2008 - 10:07 am 35. PopeRatzo:

“Obama faces a dangerous world.”

Well, it’s a lot less dangerous now that George Bush is leaving the White House, so we do have that to look forward to it.

I’m proud of my country today. More proud than I’ve ever been before. I’m proud of all those people from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Florida, Virginia, etc., who finally decided that clinging to hope and American ideals is far superior to being bitter and clinging to their guns and their nonexistent gods.

Nov 5, 2008 - 10:31 am 36. Mike Garrett:

Well, so I am a neo-nazi AND a leftist! God what a multi-talented man I must be. I will toast Obama with my warm beer Jerry and thank God (if she exists) for the common-sense of a majority of your fellow Americans. Once again, you demonstrate that baffling tendency to turn any debate until a fight between polarised forces: good and evil. Sadly, this is what has led to the state of the world as it is. Global warming won’t be cured by looking for evil empires but by us all co-operating and (most importantly) taking responsibility for our own faults. The Republicans (as Josh so succinctly puts it)have eight years and have left us (and I include us poor Brits) mired in two unminnable wars and a defunct economy. So what great success have we missed here? Lastly,to all of you who have expressed the opinion that it is America’s destiny to run round righting wrongs,just heard on the radio that American has just bombed the shit out of another Afghan wedding party! Perhaps we should ask the rest of the world if it really wants the Lone Ranger to ride to the rescue!

Nov 5, 2008 - 10:31 am 37. Marc Malone:

Mike Garrett – So many conflicts to address.

Healthcare and longevity. We spend more on healthcare here. It’s true. Americans are obese, because we are so rich. That causes a younger age for death, especially for men, as women tend to watch their weight more. It is NOT, however, becuase our healthcare is poorer. You are able to afford national healthcare because you don’t spend but a third what we do on military. We do all your heavy lifting. However, when your wealthy citizens want real healthcare, they come here.

Furthermore, the white Euros are not even breeding enough to replace themselves, and the Arabs are moving into the vacuum. Your own society has become too flaccid to breed, and is thus headed for extinction. When your numbers are too diminished to matter, the Arabs will turn around and cancel all your precious social programs. See, they rely on large families and tribalism to provide for their old age. Once they vastly outnumber you, they will cut you off and leave you to die. This your emasculated society will greatly deserve.

American Exceptionalism – We see things as right or wrong. All it takes for evil to succeed is for enough good men to do nothing. (Edmund Burke)The USSR finally went into collapse mode when Reagan called them an Evil Empire. Our economy here turned around also because of his belief in certain things being true, and convincing the people to stand for what’s right economically. There IS good and evil in this world. Nuanced, schmuanced.

American presence in Europe – We pay dearly for that presence. We do it, because it’s cheaper in money and lives than coming over and rescuing your butts, as we did in WWI & WWII. Our presence there has kept you at peace (except Yugoslavia’s break-up)in Europe for 60+ years. You should be thanking us. Your peace and prosperity is because of OUR efforts.

Warfare – We were in SE asia why exactly? Oh, right… Vietnam. Why there? Oh, because after WWII, there was a debate about returning it to France or allowing it its freedom. While the argumwent raged, Britain… wait for it… RE-ARMED THE JAPANESE POW’S, & CANCELLED THE ELECTIONS THAT HO-CHI MINH WAS SURE TO WIN, and gave Vietnam back to France. Britain caused the Vietnam war with this despicable act! So, shut up!

Why are we the enemy of the filthy Moslems? Because we defend Israel, and they wish to exterminate Israel! Why? Because they psycopathically hate the Jews… just like Hitler. They also wish to spread their tyrranical faith troughout the world. It is required in their “Holy Book”, the most foul Qu’ran. We refuse to allow another Holocaust, because we are still predominantly a Judeo-Christian nation.

As we move away from our religious roots, the support for what’s right recedes. The political left are basically Godless. It’s Man versus God. Left and Right. Same goes for Europe. Weak Socialism (versus strong Capitalism) follows, followed by cultural and racial extinction.

Enough for now.

Nov 5, 2008 - 11:41 am 38. Mary Madigan:

As we move away from our religious roots, the support for what’s right recedes. The political left are basically Godless.

The Middle East is a very religious place. Europe is not godless – most European nations have state religions. Britain has no constitution that is capable of protecting it from the intolerance of state-sponsored religion or apartheid Shariah laws.

America succeeds because it tolerates all beliefs (even atheism) while our constitution demands that faith and politics be kept separate.

Nov 5, 2008 - 12:12 pm 39. Mike Garrett:

Well Marc, the feedback I am getting from so many people watching this posting-exchange seems to indicate that your last diatribe is exactly why we in Europe are soooo glad Obama is in control. That torrent of fascist twaddle is such a caricature I am tempted to believe you are a spoof! “Filthy moslems”, “most foul Qu’ran”. I am sure that the 40-strong family of ‘filthy moslems’, celebrating a wedding in Afghanistan, who your bomber’s have just reduced to stains on brickwork, deserved what they got! Sadly, for the other, more measured contributers to this reasonably good-humoured (if vigorous) debate,your comments confirm what the genuinely anti-americans believe. Why don’t people like yourself, who are forever going on about ‘freedom’, recognise that this means the right NOT to believe in supernatural beings (or aliens, for that matter)? Religous roots, schmoots!

Nov 5, 2008 - 12:25 pm 40. Steve Stone:

Dangerous world?

Not if you remember clearly, as I do, December 7, 1941, with the US Pacific Fleet under water at Pearl Harbor and the Wehrmacht within sight of Moscow.

Today’s “dangerous” isn’t even Jacks for Openers!!!

Nov 5, 2008 - 12:36 pm 41. Norman:

Here in Canada to-day, there are people celebrating the election of Barack Obama. For those Americans, who require the approval of those in other lands this is, no doubt, wonderful news.As Lincoln said, “for those who like that kind of thing,it will be the kind of thing they like” The celebrants think that this is a truly wonderful thing.

The bad news here is that the celebrants tend all too often, to be the people who hate Americans and most of what America means. Americans should not therefore expect them to think well of them because their conceits have been indulged. They are pleased for themselves and their paradigm not for the United States.

The celebrants are pleased because they sense in the President Elect a kindred spirit who shares their world view that most of humanity’s problems have been made in the USA. That American capitalism that has fueled the republican experience for two hundred and twenty one years is evil and that the government bureaucrat is the highest form possible of human evolution. They also resent the uniqueness that has come to be explained as American Exceptionalism and yearn for the leveling of nations just as they yearn for the leveling of people

Reading between the lines, one can’t help but believe that the revelers in other places are motivated by many of the same considerations as those in Canada and Europe. Many but not all. In Tehran .In Caracas. In Havana and Moscow and no doubt, somewhere in the mountains of Western Pakistan, the celebrants have additional reasons to toast the “transformational” and possibly mystical event that we are assured has happened before our very eyes.

Those who wish America ill had no reason to expect that, as a society, it would turn against the man who immediately recognized that the flames and death that appeared, quite literally, out of the blue on that sunny September morning more than seven years ago, represented a paroxysm of medieval intolerance and not a “coming home to roost” of America’s evil deeds. Nor did they have reason to hope that, despite being kept safe since that day, Americans in sufficient numbers would turn now instead to a man espousing the ancient and consistently discredited idea that “engaging” violent and implacable foes in “dialogue” will dissuade them from murdering you when their ideology mandates exactly such murder.

Nevertheless, Americans have provided their enemies with just such bribe. Hoping that they will be better disposed toward them in the future and that the chattering classes both under their own roof and around the world will write and say nice things about how bold and egalitarian the American people have become in four short years. One fears that this is a vain hope. Like the Jews of Israel, America is hated, in the end, not for what it does or does not do, but simply for what it is. Osama bin Laden was honest enough to clarify that and it is a foregone conclusion. The only variable matter is whether or not America will be respected and, dare I say, feared, enough to be passed over by the global predators that prey on the weak and irresolute.

Mr. Obama, whatever many shining attributes he may posses, inspires neither respect nor fear in those from whom the United States must have at least one of these. His narrative that has so inspired and obsessed the global media will not impress them .On the contrary. His election is, metaphorically speaking of course, the blood in the water that serves notice to the circling predators that the prey is injured and that the hunt will soon be brought to a successful conclusion.

Despite the gaucherie of the idea that conflict that cannot be discussed away does exist, one cannot help but note that some things are simply by their very nature, zero sum games. So it is in this case. Bringing comfort to America’s enemies brings an approximately concomitant degree of discomfort to it’s friends

Those in other places who to-day, have not joined the celebrants refrain, not because of what Mr. Obama may devise domestically. This would be, by definition, a domestic issue and problem. We decline the celebration because we see both the tragedy and the irony that a nation and polity founded upon the accumulated wisdom of Jefferson, Madison and Hamilton now adheres to the advice of bad comedians.

The political axiom that ,as goes Ohio goes the nation ,was once again validated last evening. We must now come to terms with a much larger axiom which is that as goes America so goes freedom.

Nov 5, 2008 - 12:49 pm 42. misanthropicus:

“Medvedev announces in a speech the deployment of rockets in Kaliningrad” (formerly Konigsberg, the little enclave in Germany at the Baltic Sea) – Reuters, 12:45 PST.

Hurrah! Obama won and we’re liked! Hey – wait a second! Rockets in Kaliningrad? (Konigsberg, an eclave in Germany, for the geographically challenged Obamaphiles). Bush’s gone and the Russians are still at it? So are the Iranians? And all others?
I am confused, I thought that Bush caused all these! We are not liked again? THAT fast?
Confused in California

Nov 5, 2008 - 1:05 pm 43. Mary Madigan:

I am sure that the 40-strong family of ‘filthy moslems’, celebrating a wedding in Afghanistan, who your bomber’s have just reduced to stains on brickwork, deserved what they got!

Tens of thousands of Afghan civilians were deliberately targeted and murdered by the Taliban, before and after 2001.

Nov 5, 2008 - 1:37 pm 44. Bonnie:

Dear Beerstine,
I enjoyed reading your post and thank you for comforting me with the obvious: Israel will no longer have cart blanche to attack Palestinians or Lebanese. The world is that much brighter today, November 5th. Just when i thought it couldn’t get any better! Thank you!

Nov 5, 2008 - 1:47 pm 45. Mike Garrett:

Mary: “Tens of thousands of Afghan civilians were deliberately targeted and murdered by the Taliban, before and after 2001.”

And your point is….? Are you saying that it doesn’t matter (presumably as long as they weren’t American). Are you saying that it is okay because the Taliban killed innocent people too? Are you saying this should be seen as acceptable collateral damage. Like the massacre of seventeen innocent Iraqi civilians by your Blackwater mercenaries in Baghdad (September 16th 2007)and rendered immune from all prosecution (both in Iraq and in the USA)by your very own George W? And this from a self-professed Christian country! Whatever happened to the ‘blessed are the peacemakers’?

You folk continually make my points for me, this is exactly the attitude that the rest of us (and, presumably, now, a majority of your own compatriots) are hoping will change under your new president.

You are killing us with your rescue plans! Believe me, the world will survive without you!

Nov 5, 2008 - 3:29 pm 46. susan:

mike garrett, you really sound like a pompous ass, no wonder you are fan of zerobama.

1) you like to play the economist that you are not, however, as a European native, still living in europe I ask you, why, since as you say, our socialist economy is so strong, why we entirely depend on the economy of the USA. I am sure for you it’s a clever idea to depend on the economy of saudi arabia or china or russia, however the continental europe might be not so in favour of selling out collective asses to the muslims or the chinese like you wish. The uk (or what was once the uk, because surely nowadays it’s a province of pakistan) is really walking down an ugly path, but reading your stuff, i wonder why it’s not yet officially islamic united kingdom.

2) I can barely contain my vomit in reading “is exactly why we in Europe are soooo glad Obama is in control. ”

mhmhmh, I see the same hubris of your beloved zerobama.

Last time I checked there is no Mike Garrett in charge of anything relevant in “europe”, therefore, you are happy because this election will bring america on the decline while at the same time clean up your white guilt. But you are speaking on behalf of yourself, your other demented leftist marxist anti american parasites and the ones cheering for 9-11.

Basically you speak for yourself and the scum of the planet.

You could also explain to us, since you admit that the UK is such a wonderful place to live, the increadible amount of EMIGRANTS you have.

“I am sure that the 40-strong family of ‘filthy moslems’, celebrating a wedding in Afghanistan, who your bomber’s have just reduced to stains on brickwork, deserved what they got!”

I have no more pity for those 40 moslems that I have for the many non-moslems killed in muslim countries every day without even the excuse of a war.

But I suppose in your warped mentality christians must be killed on the spot because they deserve so. Well thought out motivation!

I have a vision for you. Your britain sinks more and more down the sharia drain and not surely cowards like yourself will be able to do something about it.

Have you bought your prayer rug already?

You want to get rid of christianity, be careful what you wish for…

If you complain that chrstians are “forcing you” on something wait until the muslims take charge.

Nov 5, 2008 - 4:11 pm 47. Barack Obama: United States Newly-Elected President | Great Power Politics:

[...] us all hope he is up to the many challenges [...]

Nov 5, 2008 - 4:19 pm 48. Mike Garrett:

Wow! Another bizarre illogical right-wing rant! This time from somewhere in Europe. Just love it! You make my day! So crazed and rabid and xenophobic and nonsensical, I barely have to do more than ‘point’ and laugh. You really enjoy making my point about right-wingers. Foaming at the mouth with all that hatred. Thank God (if she does exist) for OBAMA! Yippee! You are now officially in the declining minority. Your day has truly passed. Hallelujah! I would answer your posting Susan if I could find any logical points in there. Like so many of your predecessors, you have attributed to me so many things I never said. Hope those silent people reading all this are having a good laugh!

Nov 5, 2008 - 4:59 pm 49. susan:

bye mike, i believe you look fine in a burka. After all, the political burka is already covering your little brain.

May I remind you the other intelligent people here (of which you have no part of course) that of the whole europe, the only 2 idiotic countries still under the deranged left are Mike Garrett united kingdom of sharia and spain.

I guess we right winger are soooo a declining minority that we have actually majorities in continental europe, yeepee.

Keep living in the bubble mike and don’t forget to take your meds. thinking is too much an effort for you, but don’t worry, socialist nanny state is already thinking for you and it’s thinking that you look good in a burka.

Nov 5, 2008 - 5:21 pm 50. susan:

oh and please mike, remind everybody here how is the rating of gordon brown nowadays

remind us all how the recent elections went for the leftist nu-labour went in the uk

HAHAHHA THAT IS SURELY ONE BIG LAUGH.

But don’t worry mike, we won’t hold it against you that you voted for the worst government of the last 200 years in the uk. we understand that you really need a nurse constantly taking care of you and sooner than you think, the caliph will take care of everything.

and remember, nu-labour in the uk are very much loved, very much, yes yes, the best government the uk ever had. Brown is better than churchill…

Nov 5, 2008 - 5:26 pm 51. Mary Madigan:

And your point is….?

I would think the point was obvious. The fact that the Taliban has deliberately targeted tens of thousands of Afghan civilians is an atrocity. If you object to American methods of dealing with Taliban aggression, how would you solve the problem?

The Taliban are supported by the Pakistani government for the same reasons the Saudis support al Qaeda and Hamas – it’s a foreign militia that’s used to keep the neighbors, various enemies and potential rebel groups (like the Baluchis) intimidated. Like most terrorist militias, they’re vulnerable to attacks from locals who are sick of their Salafi charm and from other warring militia groups. Like al Sadr in Iraq, they’re also vulnerable when their supporters decide that this militia is more trouble than it’s worth. So, what would you do?

Nov 5, 2008 - 5:40 pm 52. susan:

WARNING FOR THE OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE THEIR IQ LOWERED THANKS TO THE STUPID RAMBLINGS OF MIKE GARRETT:

I would like to apologise for the despicable writing of this deranged individual.

Yes, we Europe are guilty of creating such little monsters, people who burn israel and USA flag to make their poor points come across. People who burn down McDonalds places because they are symbols of evil american imperialism. People who actively send money to suicide bombers in palestine.

You can bet your a$$ that mike garrett was one cheering on sept 12 screaming that USA deserved it bla bla bla. He surely also believes that katrina was created by bush and even the war in crimea was caused by bush. I think you know the type. The “light” version is your american college kids but the virulent form is unfortunately on european soil.

I know this type of sub-human product. It’s the leftist indoctrination that creates it. Their modus operandi is to shut opposition with murder (commie brigades liked to blow up train stations, banks, police officers as well as politicians, think of it as a kind of Ayers with several actual successful operations), buy press and brainwash with the press and through school.

Being leftist is also so radical chic, it gives them subjects within their uber-intellectual circles. They usually never work and are either on the state payroll or their parents’ payroll and never had any responsibility in life.

Typical of the leftist is to run around with a porche but lecture yourself riding a bycicle about pollution and how you are not really entitled to anything you possess because “social justice” is more important.

The simple idea that someone might had a belief in a higher power cause a seizure, unless the cult is an oppressive one like islam that can help them destroy the state from within. In that case they scream at yuman rites and all that stuff.

It’s actually deprived people that needs serious help and constant monitoring. Unfortunately our socialized medicine cannot provide for them all, so that’s why mike garrett is here posting.

Yes, after producing hitler, milosevich and the cannibal of rostock we unfortunately produce people like him.

But we are deeply ashamed.

Nov 5, 2008 - 5:57 pm 53. momof3:

What most europeans and others don’t get is the US does not (or rather, should not) give a rats ass what you think. The biggest argument I’ve ever heard against Obama was how many nonamericans love him. If the US is so evil, why do you all depend on us for everything? It’s like a teenager screaming “I hate you!” at his parents. We protect you and keep you safe. Sometimes this means killing people. Gasp! Yes, it does! We export our healthcare systems and technology. My husband has a very lucrative side-line taking medical equipment hospitals here are literally throwing away, fixing it, and selling it to people who take it overseas. But yeah, let’s hear it for socialized medicine! Whoo-hoo! Second-rate castoffs are great!

We also export healthy economies, apparently, because when we don’t have one, no one has one. You blame us for this, but why are you so involved in our finances that we can bring you down, if you hate us?

If you don’t like living under the US rule, that’s fine. I hope you’re muslim, because if we aren’t running the show, they will be. And tolerance literally does not exist for them. You will have no right at all to not believe in God. YOu will have no right to abortion, or healthcare, or even beer. Enjoy.

Nov 5, 2008 - 6:16 pm 54. Obama was right!:

Interesting indeed, but he has afew good points which most folks here seem to be ignoring. The US didn’t enter WWII until Pearl Harbour (so I guess Hitler was seen as just an inconvenience until then). And, the US government has supported many lunatic regiemes for it’s own ends in the past. So let’s not paint the good old USA as a country that hasn’t made many catastrophic errors of judgement in it’s foreign policy in the past!

Nov 5, 2008 - 8:12 pm 55. Marc Malone:

Obama was right – No, the U.S. did not enter WWII until attacked, and only after Hitler idiotically declared war on us 9 days later. Before that, however, we were doing everything we could within our neutral status to help (equipment, ships, et al). Many Americans, especially the all-important pilots, joined up and served in Canadian and British units. The point is, we weren’t required to do this at all, but we DID do it.

No matter how much you give to a beggar, it’s never enough. They’ll always fault you for not giving more. It is simply the beggar mentality that socialism begets. During WWII, G.B. was grateful for anything we gave, but not now. Now they think they were entitled to more, which they weren’t. Ingrates.

Nov 5, 2008 - 9:04 pm 56. susan:

Obama was right has no clue about the recent hystory of the world and his own country.

The situation is really tragic.

Nov 6, 2008 - 3:38 am 57. Anonymous:

Thank you Mary, for your cool rational and well-expressed comments. I can’t really debate with people like Susan who keep attributing things to me I never said and then attacking me for them. For instance, I am not a Muslim, Marxist, socialist or anti-American and I never voted for Gordon Brown. I am not anti-Israel (though I have severe reservations about her illegal occupation of Arab land). Also, a close friend of mine was injured in New York on 9/11 so I was not “cheering on sept 12 screaming that USA deserved it bla bla bla”. Neither can I see why Sharia law keeps popping up in this debate. I was actually in the States a few weeks back, and enjoyed my stay and was made very welcome. Not all of my American friends are pro-Obama but they have all had a rueful chuckle at the xenophobic racism of some of these contributers. So, to your comment Mary. What would I do? Well firstly, I think Obama’s analysis of the situation is correct. We (and I include us Brits in this) should have kept our eye on the ball and put all our initial military effort into Afghanistan. Bush already had plans for invading Iraq and it is well documented that Rumsfield was desperate to link Iraq to 9/11. However despicable Saddam Hussein was (and remember, it was Rumsfield who delivered him his WMD in the first place), it would have made much more sense to have gone after Al Quaeda with everything we had! The Iraq invasion was a colossal blunder by a leadership obsessed with oil. Obama is right about another thing. If we took our troops out of Iraq and put more on the ground in Afghanistan we would lessen the likelihood of horrific (and all-too common) mistakes which, sadly, become inevitable when you bomb from a great height! This sort of mistake hardly endears us to the population and simply acts as a ‘recruiting sergeant’ for the Taliban (who, by the way, I agree are truly odious!). I note your comment about the Saudi’s (George W.’s special friends) who, by exporting their fundamentalist brand of Islam via the madrassas, have actually fueled the whole situation. I find it so strange that the USA continually makes the wrong choice in friends. Not only are they pally with the Saudis, but the list goes back a long way: Noriega, Saddam, Somoza, all the nasty Latin American generals. I have been in Pakistan, and the Middle-East, and have met and talked to both radical Islamics and the moderates, and once again, the USA keeps scoring ‘own goals’ whenever it mistakenly blows innocent civilians to pieces. It may seem like a good military strategy to bomb somewhere on of off-chance you might kill a ‘bad-guy’ but like all those failed attempts to assasinate Saddam from the air, every time you kill innocent bystanders, you make the job of winning hearts and minds more difficult. Hope this makes my (sadly nuanced) position more clear.

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:52 am 58. M Garrett:

Thank you Mary, for your cool rational and well-expressed comments. I can’t really debate with people like Susan who keep attributing things to me I never said and then attacking me for them. For instance, I am not a Muslim, Marxist, socialist or anti-American and I never voted for Gordon Brown. I am not anti-Israel (though I have severe reservations about her illegal occupation of Arab land). Also, a close friend of mine was injured in New York on 9/11 so I was not “cheering on sept 12 screaming that USA deserved it bla bla bla”. Neither can I see why Sharia law keeps popping up in this debate. I was actually in the States a few weeks back, and enjoyed my stay and was made very welcome. Not all of my American friends are pro-Obama but they have all had a rueful chuckle at the xenophobic racism of some of these contributers. So, to your comment Mary. What would I do? Well firstly, I think Obama’s analysis of the situation is correct. We (and I include us Brits in this) should have kept our eye on the ball and put all our initial military effort into Afghanistan. Bush already had plans for invading Iraq and it is well documented that Rumsfield was desperate to link Iraq to 9/11. However despicable Saddam Hussein was (and remember, it was Rumsfield who delivered him his WMD in the first place), it would have made much more sense to have gone after Al Quaeda with everything we had! The Iraq invasion was a colossal blunder by a leadership obsessed with oil. Obama is right about another thing. If we took our troops out of Iraq and put more on the ground in Afghanistan we would lessen the likelihood of horrific (and all-too common) mistakes which, sadly, become inevitable when you bomb from a great height! This sort of mistake hardly endears us to the population and simply acts as a ‘recruiting sergeant’ for the Taliban (who, by the way, I agree are truly odious!). I note your comment about the Saudi’s (George W.’s special friends) who, by exporting their fundamentalist brand of Islam via the madrassas, have actually fueled the whole situation. I find it so strange that the USA continually makes the wrong choice in friends. Not only are they pally with the Saudis, but the list goes back a long way: Noriega, Saddam, Somoza, all the nasty Latin American generals. I have been in Pakistan, and the Middle-East, and have met and talked to both radical Islamics and the moderates, and once again, the USA keeps scoring ‘own goals’ whenever it mistakenly blows innocent civilians to pieces. It may seem like a good military strategy to bomb somewhere on of off-chance you might kill a ‘bad-guy’ but like all those failed attempts to assasinate Saddam from the air, every time you kill innocent bystanders, you make the job of winning hearts and minds more difficult. Hope this makes my (sadly nuanced) position more clear.

Nov 6, 2008 - 5:09 am 59. M Garrett:

BTW, It looks as if the censoring powers have blocked my further postings (hence name-change) so maybe I am making too many good points, or possibly this site is just for like-minded good guys. Have a great life all of you and lets us look forward to seeing who was right about Mr. Obama over the next four years. Bye!

Nov 6, 2008 - 5:14 am 60. jerryofva:

Sorry for being out of the picture for so long but it did give me time to reflect on Mr. Garret. He is probably some ranting adolescent Trotskyite living on the dole with nothing better to do. Why do I say Trotskyite?

When anyone says Fascist system x had some good points you know that they mean not some good points put perfection. You know as in Hitler ended Employment so that’s a good thing isn’t it. The Socialist variant of Fascism has done nothing except impoverish and murder its citizens. It has done no good thing. In practice the thing labeled socialism is the least successful form of Fascism.

Garret’s rants have all the characteristics of the Trotskyite lunatics I have encountered in my 58 years. Your standard Soviet style communist is capable of making a reasoned if phony argument without resorting to flamboyant rhetoric. I think if this thread is still alive that we should all put Garret on ignore. He is just a child (mentally) craving attention.

Nov 6, 2008 - 6:16 am 61. Bob L.:

Obama was right: May I remind you it was spineless Neville Chamberlain who met with Herr Hitler, waved a piece of paper and declared “peace in our time”. Then a World War, literally. So don’t talk about catastrophic errors. None was worse than Chamberlains! We have not precipitated a World War.By the way, FDR operated under the radar screen to supply GB with military equipment and supplies to keep them going. Pearl Harbor was the catalyst for the US actively getting into both theaters of operations, when the isolationist faction could no longer keep us out of the war. However, no matter how you argue, the US threw it’s military and manufacturing might into winning WWII and that’s what tipped the balance. And if it wasn’t for the “good old USA”, you and your whole country would be speaking German.So just look at the bright side!

Nov 6, 2008 - 6:22 am 62. M Garrett:

Well Jerry, how happy you must be to live in your little world of make believe. Re back, read my lips “I am not, nor ever have been a member of any socialist/communist/marxist/trotskyist organisation. You and some of the other rabid mouth-frothers have a weird idea about the meaning of the word ‘debate’. It seems to come down to making up things about your opponents and then repeating them till you believe them. See above for a more complete list of things I am not, then you can happily ignore the list and continue to berate me for the things you sadly believe. No wonder you believe in supernatural beings (and aliens?). I am so glad that the leader of the free world now comes from the ranks of ‘evidence-based’ thinkers and not from the delusional lunatic fringe (where I am sure you would be very happy). How sad that in a land which you extol for its ‘freedom’ you cannot tolerate anyone who disagrees without reducing to debate to denigrating them personally. You are a deeply sad person Jerry.

Nov 6, 2008 - 7:04 am 63. Michael:

Mike, I believe you are wrong on nearly every one of your points with the possible exception of the US removing our troups from Europe. After all you all are supposed to be big boys now.

I am sorry and appologize for all the personal attacks. The art of debate and conversation is nearly extinct here in the US. The ability to convince through facts logic and debate has been sorely neglected in our schools.

The main fear I have and I believe many other conservatives have here is that our freedom of speech will soon be under assault with the Democrats in the ascendency. Conservatives will scream and holler and throw fits but that is about it. Our liberals will do the same and also try to silence any views not in keeping with their views. (As I said, real debate is frowned upon by our left.)

Talk radio and the internet are the main forums for conservative views here and there is already, or I should say, still a concerted move to stifle both. They will call it devisive, ie not what they think, and hate speach. Hate speech is whatever they don’t agree with. It that happens here it will soon be across the pond with a vengence.

Be careful what you wish for. If the rest of the world deplores the US they still try to claim “well at least we are better then the US!” If we lower our standards of speech and tolerance yours will not remain at any high level either.

Nov 6, 2008 - 7:28 am 64. Mary Madigan:

I find it so strange that the USA continually makes the wrong choice in friends. Not only are they pally with the Saudis, but the list goes back a long way: Noriega, Saddam, Somoza, all the nasty Latin American generals.

Britain also has a history of being friends with nasties, as does every state in Europe. France supported the Hutu efforts to wipe out the Tutsis in Rwanda and who knows what they’re doing in the Congo right now. Russia is one of the nasties, and their alliances are as bad as it gets. Yet they’re outdone by China, Saudi Arabia and Iran. Nearly everyone is playing the same game as Pakistan, using some form of terror supporter or militia as a highly dangerous (and self-destructive) fright wig to scare their enemies.

Some America tactics in Afghanistan, like relying on tribal sources to identify Taliban bombing targets are flawed because the information is sometimes bogus, and, even with good technology, bombs can go astray. You may criticize our actions in Iraq, but the Anbar Awakening did teach us one of the most efficient ways to destroy terror militias – encourage local vigilante groups to do the job. Most Afghans want to get rid of the Taliban even more than we do, and if the US army guides their efforts in helping get rid of the Taliban/al Qaeda, etc., we really do win their hearts and minds. Army guidance also encourages tribal groups to respect the power of the central state, and should discourage the creation of small tribal states-within-states. We’re already starting to do that, and Obama’s plan to put more troops on the ground there will probably help.

The most important thing we learned in Iraq was how weak these terrorist pawns are when they lose the support of their sponsors. Al Sadr was promoted as the ‘Most Powerful Man in Iraq’, but when the Russians and Iranians got tired of supporting him, and when al Qaeda’s attacks against Iraqi Shi’ites nearly ceased, no one needed him anymore. Apparently he ate some bad sushi or something, and, despite the best efforts of “Iranian and Russian doctors’, he ‘became ill’ and basically disappeared. Without him, his followers were easily defeated.

Terrorist militias are weak, and the states that directly support them, like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, are even weaker. If the Russians, the Chinese, and others weren’t using these states/militias as pawns, they would go the way of al Sadr. I think Ahmadinejad has recently gone missing due to ’stress’. The best way to defeat these groups is to change the rules of the game, or abandon it altogether. Hopefully, Obama will figure that out.

Nov 6, 2008 - 7:59 am 65. susan:

Garrett, if your posts have been cancelled, it’s because they were utterly stupid. Go away and hide yourself under the burka. Have fun under the caliphate.

Nov 6, 2008 - 8:09 am 66. susan:

Mike you failed to bring evidence of how the people in the UK are happy under nu-lab and how Gordon Brown is appreciated as the best man of the century.

So much for your spewing bullsh*ts about the right parties of europe.

cmon, bring the numbers.

PS: for USA people not understanding, Gordon Brown is less popular than Nancy Pelosi.

Cmon Mike, put the money where your foaming mouth is, bring evidence that the nu-lab rating is BETTER than any right-wing government elected, for example in france or italy nowadays.

I will wait in vain.

So much for you not being a communist.

Nov 6, 2008 - 8:28 am 67. bear:

This is very entertaining. great use of my lunch hour+. Mr. Garrett.

Tell me about the Falklands…what was that all about. I’m fascinated

Nov 6, 2008 - 9:54 am 68. John R:

Response to Mike Garrett:

Regarding US military strikes killing innocents along with the bad guys, the US truly regrets any collateral deaths of innocents and nearly always attempts to make restitution. The problem is a serious and seriously practical one of this enemy hiding and mingling among civilians. You pay absolutely no regard for this fact. Terrorism is a tactic used to achieve political aims by countries or groups with weak or inferior militaries.

My problem with euro anti-americanism is that while disgusting, it is mearly a symptom of a much more serious problem for them – a continent in the grips of moral collapse. That saddens me more than it angers me. Europe is finished.

Nov 6, 2008 - 10:01 am 69. M Garrett:

Well, with the exception of bear, Mary and Michael, nobody actually seems to read my postings. The constant confusion of myself with (take your pick) terrorists, muslims, Trotskyists, communists marxists and nazis speaks volumes for the average intelligence of these contributers. They appear to live in a strange self-delusional world. One of my American friends (a non-Obama supporter, as it happens) said (after reading this topic) that I would be better off debating this subject with chimpanzees! He echoed what you have just said Michael. (BTW thank you Michael for another reasoned posting). In Europe we are usually capable of having a reasoned debate without resorting to invective and (in most of Europe) free speech is genuinely free. Susan is obviously an exception to this. But I refuse to apologise on her behalf because she is obviously in need of treatment. One of the differences between British and American forces in Afghanistan and Iraq is their rules of engagement. Brits have to be certain they are shooting at belligerents, often restraining fire till they are actually attacked. They suffer from this policy, by having a high casualty rate.I believe (though I am open to correction) that Americans have a lower threshold of proof before firing. Whatever the reasons, the Americans have a far far higher rate of ‘friendly fire’ and ‘collateral damage’ incidents. In a recent one, where Americans killed some British servicemen they refused to provide evidence to the inquest here, causing much distress to the victims families. If this is how Americans treat their allies, is it any wonder that it fans the flames of anti-americanism. It appears that a similar exceptionalist arrogance is in play when the USA can extradite suspects from here (like the three bankers) but refuses to allow extradition from there. The American authorities are harboring the man widely believed to be responsible for blowing up a civilian airliner flying from Caracas to Havana. How would you folk feel if it was a man who had blown up an American airliner being protected by Cubans? You can’t have it both ways, if it is terrorism to plant bombs and mine civilian areas then it has to be wrong everywhere! Not just in selective places. George Bush said that any country which harbors terrorists should be treated as a terrorist state. That will be America then George! Mary, thanks again for your reasoned arguments. You are right, the Brits have had some pretty nasty friends. I am against the whole principle of supporting evil people because they are convenient. It nearly always backfires! The Mujahudeen were built up, armed and trained by the USA and look what became of them! I just hope (maybe mistakenly) that Obama offers a chance to reverse this trend and look for more common ground between our countries. Europe is finished eh John. Well when your collosal mountain of national debt finall gets called in, we will see who is finished!

Nov 6, 2008 - 11:28 am 70. susan:

“My problem with euro anti-americanism is that while disgusting, it is mearly a symptom of a much more serious problem for them – a continent in the grips of moral collapse. That saddens me more than it angers me. Europe is finished.”

ssssshhhhh, don’t tell mike, he’s peacefully sleeping on his own demise, don’t wake him up. He might not have his beloved white flag nearby…

Nov 6, 2008 - 12:08 pm 71. Obama was right:

Not that I aggree with all of mr. Garrett’s points, but he has raised some significant issues and, sadly much of the response here has been rather vitriolic and incoherent.

It would be better to respond with facts rather than rhetoric.

E.g. Susan argues “you don’t know anything…or go away and hide” well that is not rational argument and an “I know better, so there” approach doesn’t help clarify anything.

Marc Malone notes: “No matter how much you give to a beggar, it’s never enough. They’ll always fault you for not giving more. Now they think they were entitled to more, which they weren’t. Ingrates.”

Well, a good timeline of WWII can be found here :
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/ww2time.htm

Interesting stuff! The point made was that we in the US acted in our own self interests (erroneously as it worked out) and didn’t enter the War for over a year after it started hoping to avoid conflict (even though it was obvious the facists were up to all sorts of nefarious stuff). However today, the re-written commonly accepted history here is that the US almost single handedly won WWII with a bit of help from our Allies. In fact most historians agree it was probably the Russians and their containment of the Nazis on the Eastern fron that made the most significant single contribution to their defeat. Remember they lost 25 million people in the war! No wonder the Soviet’s became so paranoid immediately after it. No one suggested for a minute that the UK was not grateful for all of the support from its allies.

Most of the responses seem to take the line it is unpatriotic somehow to criticize the “good old USA” as it is the best country on earth. Well, that rather idiotic and egocentric stance hasn’t helped us in our foreign policy to date. All countries have their high and low points in history (The UK invented Concentration Camps for example), and lets also remember the US has a comparatively short history.

We here in the US we are basically top-dog because of our technological and military strength (that was the UK 100 years ago). We have some serious social and economic problems. Millions of people don’t have access to health care, violent crime is prevalent, many people think it is OK for children to play with automatic weapons, our public education system is atrocious, and we have one of the highest disparities between rich and poor in the world. A developed country? If I had to say which contry was the best overall (a senseless proposition in any case) I would probably go for Canada or New Zealand rather than the US as they seem to get along fine without interfering in other countries unnecessarily, or using excessive resources to sustain their way of life.

Lets hope the new government has a more outward looking policy than the navel-gazing going on here, and let’s try and open our minds to actually think abouth the issues, rather than spout ideology and tell people how they should think. I too won’t be coming back here.

Nov 6, 2008 - 1:08 pm 72. M Garrett:

I would be interested in knowing how many of the people who are diagnosing the imminent demise of Europe have actually been here (excepting sad Susan who is clearly deranged). Not sure if it is true, but read somewhere that only 5% of Americans have passports. Assuming that not all of them have actually travelled that widely, maybe a two-hunderd year old culture might find that we are actually doing quite well here, having survived for several thousand years already.

Nov 6, 2008 - 1:20 pm 73. susan:

n. 71, the replies are balanced with mike garrett snobbish entitlement feeling that he’s speaking for the whole europe, as he did in his FIRST post.

He also spewed same level insults calling people on the right, warmongers etc.

I simply called him on the EVIDENT FACT that beside his nutty uk, the rest of europe is pretty much on the conservative side. Something that mike garred was NOT ABLE to dismiss and instead changed subject.

The rest was sarcams, but I do not think that a british snobbish, self-loathing pompous ass can grasp it.

This “deranged” person (said by the fair mike garrett who demand respect from others without giving) is saying that the number of native western europeans running away from it and landing in USA if FAR HIGHER than the other way around.

Mike garrett, why don’t you find relevant data to disprove it?

Reality is that people from all over the world still think the “pursuit of happiness” is worthwhile.

EAsy to call the other “deranged” when you have nothing else and VALID to say.

How is going the koran class?

Nov 6, 2008 - 1:44 pm 74. susan:

and mike, reading back your leftist snob venom, regardless of your constant knee jerking to muslims, Hamas IS a terrorist organization. Whether you consider them to be God’s greatest gift to mankind is your own personal uninformed and stupid assertion.

“European Union foreign ministers said today that the union would officially declare all wings of the militant Palestinian group Hamas a terrorist organization and freeze its assets. ”
Published: September 7, 2003

Do you think that someone is taking you seriously because of your irritanting know-it-all attitude?

Nov 6, 2008 - 1:50 pm 75. John R:

To Mike Garrett:

You make a couple very good points re rules of engagement and the US harboring suspects involved in terrorist attacks. On the second point, if the US will not extradite suspected terrorists I think it’s indefensible and I concede your point. Re rules of engagement, it’s impossible for me to know what is happening on the ground, what the intelligence is, how reliable it is, and the always present unknowns. But my point was simply that the terrorists use the propaganda from these incidents as a central part of their strategy. One could argue that sweeping up more collateral deaths could actually shorten the conflict and save lives in the end. But my problem is again the inability of much of the US opposition in this war to distinguish between intentional acts of murder and unfortunate deaths of people who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Next, you seem fixated on the US debt as if this country hasn’t experienced similar problems with its balance sheet. The $700B bailout represents less than 5 percent of the US GDP. Inflation is still in single digits as is unemployment. The dollar is strengthening while the Pound and Euro are losing value. The US remains a great place to invest and soon we’ll see large foreign investments moving to the US.

Finally, you completely avoided my central point about the moral collapse of Great Britain and Europe. Tell me, what does it say about your fellow countrymen that majorities all over Europe and GB believe that 9-11 was the handiwork of George Bush and his cronies? I could list others such as the resurgence of Jew hatred but I’ve made my point.

Nov 6, 2008 - 1:55 pm 76. susan:

Food for thought:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1569400/Emigration-soars-as-Britons-desert-the-UK.html

Last year, 207,000 British citizens – one every three minutes – left the country while 510,000 foreigners arrived to stay for a year or more.

Since Labour came to power in 1997, 1.8m British people have left but only 979,000 have returned, Over the same period, 3.9m foreign nationals have come to Britain while 1.6m have left.

More than 50 per cent of the British emigrants moved to just four countries in 2006 – Australia, New Zealand, France and Spain. Eight in every 100 went to the USA.

The departure of so many Britons is exacerbating the demographic and cultural changes caused by high levels of immigration.

PS: if you go to the link there are 50+ comments. Please feel free to go and read why british people are so enraged with the nu-lab PC craziness and marxist theories applied to erase western civilization, you might understand a thing or two
—————————————–

The number of born-americans doing the opposite, moving to england is probably counted in a couple of dozens

It’s really strange that a fine brain like mike garreet still doesn’t grasp USA’s exceptionalism. /sarcasm

Mike just because you have no chance to make it, it doesn’t mean that all the rest have no chance too.

It’s all about good old envy for the land of the goods and the socialist land of the goverment giveaway.

Nov 6, 2008 - 2:03 pm 77. M Garrett:

Thanks, John for that reasoned response. See Susan, that is what we rational humans call debate. Not ranting and personal abuse. Also, rational humans actually read and address what the other person says, not what appears in their imagination. Why you keep going on about muslims, burkas and caliph I can only assume comes from your feverish nightmares, it certainly bears no resemblance towards anything I am trying to say. So either marshal a few rational arguements or shut up. John,while I would acknowledge plenty of faults, moral and otherwise, here (no society is perfect) I would argue that ‘moral collapse’ is a tad over-the-top. Out of interest, which European countries have you been in? I travel the world quite widely and compared to many places, most of Europe seems to be doing well. I was in the States and Canada a few weeks back and can’t see much material difference. Of course one big difference is that in Western Europe, very few people still go to church (or synagogue or mosque etc). But I see that as a good thing. Contary to what the religious have predicted, it hasn’t resulted in the collapse of civilisation. I think humanity will have finally grown up when it no longer needs supernatural beings to blame for natural catastrophes or credit with good fortune. As for Jew hatred, you should look at some the anti-Jewish filth coming from American neo-nazis. BTW, not sure how you come to think a majority of us believe 9/11 was anything to do with Bush! He’d only just been elected! Even us Europeans aren’t that stupid. However,I do find it astonishing that a majority of Americans still believe that Iraq had a hand! Good propaganda George W, Goebbels would have been proud of that!

Nov 6, 2008 - 3:10 pm 78. Portia:

I would be interested in knowing how many of the people who are diagnosing the imminent demise of Europe have actually been here

Lived in Europe half my life. They are right. Europe is dying. Live with it. Have you ever visited the US, Mr. Garrett?

On the Afghani “wedding” — you do realize it is a standard practice for the jihadis to claim we hit a wedding, after we eliminate one of their nests, right? Sometimes they even have the props. propaganda is their strength, not ours. And all Europeans FALL for this stuff. (rolls eyes.) Have fun in your final years. We have a fight on our hands, and we’re not waving any white flags. Our children and mental adollescents might have elected a good looking fool,(did you know he has never released proof of his much vaunted IQ? Bet you don’t) but the rest of us grown ups have work to do.

Nov 6, 2008 - 3:22 pm 79. M Garrett:

Hi Portia. If you read back, you would see the answer to your question is yes. I was there only a few weeks ago. Have you ever been to Afghanistan? I have been there(as a reporter) many times. I don’t suppose you will have seen the pictures coming out of there, they probably won’t show them to the folks back home (too disturbing and bad for morale) but it takes a really warped mind to believe it is all jihadi propoganda. I suppose they maim their children just for the political capital! You are a hairs breadth from the sort of racist crap that has spoiled so much of this debate. (weren’t they the same Jihadis you armed to the teeth to fight those Godless Ruskies?). I could say the same about all those pictures of the dead and dying on 9/11, it was just propoganda dreamed up by Bush to start his version of World War III! But I won’t because a close friend of mine was maimed in that attack, and I have met (in Iraq) plenty of people maimed by random American fire-power too. You see Portia, that is why so many people in the world are glad today that Obama has won. All that dirty killing for a ‘freedom’ may now come to an end and a more reasoned and nuanced approach replace it. we can but hope. And as for Obama’s IQ, jeez, are you telling me he could possibly be less intelligent then your current bumbling idiot of a chief! Some of us doubt he can even read!

Nov 6, 2008 - 3:57 pm 80. susan:

After reading subhumans like garet, I wonder why usa came to save our asses in world war 2.

If I was american and I knew what sort of ingrate bastards there was there…

Portia, you are wasting your time. Garet is the typical loony leftist with his bag of conspiracy theories.

I was saddened when 9-11 happened. Can’t say the same for london…

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:07 pm 81. susan:

oh, and garet, you love to have your a$$ handled to you all the time, don’t you

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9844.shtml

Anti-Semitism, Islamophobia on the rise in Europe, decline in US

In the US, for example, only seven percent of respondents said they had negative views of Jews, down from eight percent four years ago.

Also, garet, what was the name of that former mayor of london, publicly caught making anti-semitic smears?

Oh, I bet he’s a hero of yours, so you must remember his name.

Well, in a normal, civilized and decent country, he would have been kicked out of office immediately.

Not in dhimmi uk.

It’s really too bad that you are impotent and cannot reply to any single evidence I brought. You bring nothing other than your arrogance in speaking on behalf of a whole continent, but not much substance.

Garet, I recently read that scientists could locate the center of the universe and guess what? Your poor, pathetic self was not found there!

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:19 pm 82. M Garrett:

I would go back on the medication Susan.

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:22 pm 83. susan:

still from proud, anti-semitic UK

Anti-Semitic incidents ‘rise 9%’
Damage to Finsbury Park synagogue in 2002
There were neo-Nazi images or Nazi references in 51 incidents

There was a 9% rise in anti-Semitic incidents in the UK in the first half of 2008 compared with the same period last year, a charity has reported.

Incidents involving Jewish students or academics and at colleges rose 88%, from 26 to 49.

There were also 29 incidents involving Jewish schools and schoolchildren.

———————————-

Are those facts enough food for your “brain”? (using the term loosely…)

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:22 pm 84. Danny:

Hi Mike. You make a lot of sense to me. I too have lived in Europe for many years and still visit Paris and London regularly. I have no idea what they mean with all these comments about the imminent collapse of Europe. To me it still seems a vibrant place with plenty of life. The UK music scene is particularly exciting. i love the new indie bands. I would ignore the extremists posting all this stuff. They don’t represent the majority here. I think that has been proved with the election of our first black president. That is the sort of thing that makes me proud to be American. As for that loonytunes Susan, you are so right. She IS deranged. We would never have gone to war to save her sad ass, thats for sure!

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:37 pm 85. susan:

“I would go back on the medication Susan.”

translation = unfortunately, other than blaming america for my own personal faults I have no capacity, nor material do dispute simple data that is evident for everybody.

So taking a leaf from the new messiah’s book, I discredit the whole thing as someone’s derangement.

Too bad I am not able to dispute a single sentence.

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:54 pm 86. susan:

There is something also for you denny

“I think that has been proved with the election of our first black president. That is the sort of thing that makes me proud to be American.”

My compliments, you display the same contempt as michelle o.

I suppose the few who still praise the founding fathers thought someone could be proud of america for a lot more other thing and not for this affirmative action stunt.

Those who support affirmative action will not see this as a reason to abandon affirmative action. They will see this as a success of affirmative action. A dismally unqualified black man ascended to the Oval Office on the coat tails of white guilt and essentially unanimous black support. This success will in no way temper their desire for affirmative action; like any success, it will encourage the behavior that resulted in that success and mistakenly believe that their orgasm was experienced by everyone else.

And yes denny, everybody judges the quality of life of a country from the number of indie bands they have.

Nov 6, 2008 - 4:57 pm 87. M Garrett:

Thanks Danny. Drop by next time you’re in town. Always welcome.
Susan, you really need to get a grip. I have no idea what you are ranting on about. One minute it is burkas and moslems and the next it is Jews. Are you actually reading anything I have said? Do you have anything coherent to say or are you just suffering from a verbal laxative. I have already said I have Jewish blood. I have Jewish friends. I have actually been to Israel, have you? I have no idea what desperately sad part of Europe you live in or whether you ever leave the house! Perhaps this is all you sad life amounts to, ranting online. You should get out more, visit some great cities like Paris, Amsterdam, London or Rome. see more of the world and be proud of your European heritage. I am!

Nov 6, 2008 - 5:13 pm 88. jonesy55:

“The number of born-americans doing the opposite, moving to england is probably counted in a couple of dozens”

Actually there are about 300,000 US citizens living in the UK, the largest total of any country after Canada.

Have you ever considered that the numbers of British people moving to other countries might have something to do with ridiculously high house prices and a strong pound enabling people to sell modest homes in the UK and buy much bigger and better places almost anywhere in the world.

In fact as both of these factors are in the process of being reversed, expect to see falls in the numbers leaving.

As you can see, “too many Muslims, we are all going to be dhimmified slaves” isn’t given as one of the most common reasons for wanting to leave.

http://britishexpats.com/articles/moving-abroad/brits-move-abroad/

Better quality of life, 37 per cent
Better weather, 32 per cent
Britain too expensive to live in, 24 per cent
New job/relocation of job, 13 per cent
A new experience/adventure, 13 per cent
Do not like Britain/what Britain has become, 12 per cent
Start a new life, 9 per cent
Have family/friends there, 9 per cent
Too much government interference, 5 per cent
Government legislation/taxation, 5 per cent
Crime, 3 per cent
Cheaper/money will go further, 3 per cent
Better quality of people, 2 per cent
Less populated, 2 per cent

We have always been a nation of people who like to see the world, in fact we’ve often been a bit too keen to take over other lands and install ourselves there, there is nothng new in Brits leaving to live elsewhere.

Nov 7, 2008 - 12:33 am 89. susan:

“I have no idea what you are ranting on about. ”

that’s because of your lack of mental capacity, but it’s a problem with no resolution.

I think it all started when you pretended to speak for the whole europe. Just because you are obsessed with self-loathing and anti-americanism it doesn’t mean that the rest of europe (which you probably despise too) feel the same.

Pretty much the whole eastern block is pro american and the majority of continental EU when the right is in power such as now.

I know you are devastated that Europeans wants no more wild immigration, criminality control, protection of western and traditional values (the values that you despise) but that’s the way it is.

You are the loosing bunch in europe and only fools and idiots don’t see that the eu leaders that were cheering for zerobama just wanted their spotlight moment. When they will brutally understand that he will behave exactly the same in foreign policy, the honeymoon will be declared over and the leftists of eu will go on $hitting on USA as always.

The fact that you are jewish means nothing. Google Oslo Syndrome.

You are just one of the many that fail to understand that islam is at war with the rest since the 7th century, the only difference between then and now, is the petrodollars. Anyone denying this is stupid to the core.

I am more appreciative of the weaks that say “I recognize the threat of islam but I realize I cannot do anything, so I sit back and wait for the dhimmification” than the idiots that say islam is a religion like any other. Total in denial. You belong to the second group.

Since you are so obsessed with what happens in afghanistan, did you ever bother to ask those peaceful afghani why a converted from islam to christianity (or any other creed) deserves to die?

No, you are not interested. The people killed at the wedding fest (forced marriage between a 50 year old man and a 10 year old child?) are people who think it’s normal to murder apostates and they’ve been thinking this for 1400 years. That strikes no cord with you. It’s just the evil american imperialism that makes your mouth foam.

And the one ashamed of western civilization is you, not me, but again your poor reading comprehension and your marxism infested brain is like a cancer.

And yes, I travelled every single country of europe and it’s talking to people like yourself that makes me think the demise and moral decline of europe is near.

Fortunately, the recent elections shows you are a lunatic, self-loathing, parasitic minority.

And about Bush’s intelligence or lack of it… have you checked who is in power in your UK?

Nov 7, 2008 - 3:47 am 90. Bob L.:

Mr. Garrett, I am curious to know who these terrorists the US is, according to you, harboring? You spout a lot, but then so do whales. Neither of you seem to make much difference in the world. So, instead of “blowing in the wind” as the song goes, please back up your comments with some real evidence. By the way, who were the three bankers?

Nov 7, 2008 - 6:32 am 91. Jonesy55:

Susan, if we are in such mortal danger why are you wasting your time talking to people like us on the internet who are never going to be convinced by your odious theories? Surely this is a deriliction of duty on your part.

Why not have the courage of your convictions, get out there with your friends and round up some muslims into camps where you can keep an eye on them or do whatever you want with them?

Nov 7, 2008 - 6:41 am 92. susan:

“Have you ever considered that the numbers of British people moving to other countries might have something to do with ridiculously high house prices and a strong pound enabling people to sell modest homes in the UK and buy much bigger and better places almost anywhere in the world”

Higher than USA? you must be joking.

And wow, people in the uk run away because they don’t have the money to buy a house? I tought your socialist economy was so strong, your health care made miracles and everybody was happy.

Keep your head firmly below the sand. Everyday it is reported that a muslim is suing a british company for lack of respect of his yuman rites. There are no-go areas in many british towns and you are the laughing stock of europe in this regard.

You are capitulating, white flag. Churchill is probably rolling in his grave.

“As you can see, “too many Muslims, we are all going to be dhimmified slaves” isn’t given as one of the most common reasons for wanting to leave.”

the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.

Dream on.

Nov 7, 2008 - 6:50 am 93. Jonesy55:

“Finally, you completely avoided my central point about the moral collapse of Great Britain and Europe. Tell me, what does it say about your fellow countrymen that majorities all over Europe and GB believe that 9-11 was the handiwork of George Bush and his cronies? I could list others such as the resurgence of Jew hatred but I’ve made my point.”

I don’t see any moral collapse around me, I see some social problems as I do in every country in the world, unless you can show me some paradise that i am unaware of. But not the general moral decline that you distant observers see through the prism of the right wing press. 90%+ of people are perfectly decent, law-abiding citizens

I don’t think there is a majority of people who beleive that GWB was behind 9/11, sure there are some conspiracy freaks out there who like to indulge in this stuff, look at the ‘truther’ movement in your own country for example, but certainly amongst the people I know I can’t think of anybody who has ever mentioned to me that they believe this.

I have also not detected any increase in jew-hatred amongst the general population, there has certainly been an increase in muslim-hatred in the past few years, something that seems to be replicated over your side of the atlantic too if commenters on here are representative of the general population.

Nov 7, 2008 - 7:02 am 94. Jonesy55:

Susan said

“Higher than USA? you must be joking.

And wow, people in the uk run away because they don’t have the money to buy a house? I tought your socialist economy was so strong, your health care made miracles and everybody was happy.”

No I am not joking and it seems that you didn’t understand my point. House prices in the UK are much higher than in the USA (especially until about 12 months ago) which means that you could sell a relatively small lower middle class type home and buy a relatively large upper middle class home in many other countries. The high house prices in the UK ENABLE them to do this, they are not running away because they can’t afford anything.

The high house prices here are a big problem for those who don’t own property but for those who do the boom (which was allowed to become ridiculous) has enabled them to trade up by taking advantage of cheaper property elsewhere around the globe. And it is generally these property owners who have been emigrating.

“Everyday it is reported that a muslim is suing a british company for lack of respect of his yuman rites. There are no-go areas in many british towns and you are the laughing stock of europe in this regard.”

Every day I talk to regular muslims and see that they are normal people, do you? Name me some of these no-go areas, I think you’ll find that people go into them all the time.

“the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.”

Well which is it, you said before that this was the reason that people were leaving and now when presented with the facts, you say that it’s because these people don’t even recognise it’s a problem, which is it??

Nov 7, 2008 - 7:48 am 95. susan:

“I don’t see any moral collapse around me, I see some social problems as I do in every country in the world, unless you can show me some paradise that i am unaware of. But not the general moral decline that you distant observers see through the prism of the right wing press. 90%+ of people are perfectly decent, law-abiding citizens”

the uk has got the highest number of teen pregnancies of europe.

this might not be technical moral decline but it is damn close.

And you obviously think that the attacks to muslims are not motivated? I mean what was the name of that preacher with the hook?

Entirely not-motivated.

the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.

And I stick to my point. If you leave your country in droves it means that it has nothing to offer.

“Every day I talk to regular muslims and see that they are normal people, do you?”

the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.

“Name me some of these no-go areas, I think you’ll find that people go into them all the time.”

the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1574694/Bishop-warns-of-no-go-zones-for-non-Muslims.html

But of course, Michael Nazir-Ali cannot be right, he is a christian!!!

Don’t believe the priest?

Let’s see what the police is saying

A police community support officer ordered two Christian preachers to stop handing out gospel leaflets in a predominantly Muslim area of Birmingham.

The evangelists say they were threatened with arrest for committing a “hate crime” and were told they risked being beaten up if they returned.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2058935/Police-advise-Christian-preachers-to-leave-Muslin-area-of-Birmingham.html

Denial is not only a river in Egypt. This stuff is CRAZY beyond belief, it defies common sense. Maybe you should look at what is happening in YOUR country instead of wasting our time in a republican oriented forum.

Even the French people in the 30s felt that there was nothing strange that a bunch of germans were marching in paris.

I do not think that it is possible to reason with you, you see the world with rose tinted glasses, self-loathing and stockholm syndrome, you will deny that there is a problem till death.

Anyway, I see that nobody even dare to touch the thorny subject of the non-muslim population living in muslim countries that is treated as second class human beings and DE facto lives in a religious apartheid.

Why in your opinion, when they move to the UK they change 180 degrees? Of course it’s not true, they don’t change.

the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.

“Well which is it, you said before that this was the reason that people were leaving and now when presented with the facts”

Which facts?

Considering what is the athmosphere in the UK, I would FEAR to say publicly that muslims get a preferential treatment.

They can incite hate as they please unpunished (see “behead anybody who insult islam” and similar ads on display) but can the local population do the same?

the drug addict rarely admits he has a problem.

I read the telegraph.co.uk and everytime the comments session is open you read of people enraged of the differential treatment they receive.

Those are a silent minority that understood the problem but don’t know how to solve it. It seems that unlike other countries in europe, your political establishment is cuddling the muslim minority.

Oh, but your friends are so nice.

I bet they find nothing wrong in killing an apostate.

Nov 7, 2008 - 8:14 am 96. M Garrett:

Like the cut of your jib jonesy55. Impressed by your grasp of detail. I see mad Susan is still on her rant. One minute she accuses me of ‘despising Europe’ and then she lists all the awful things SHE despises about Europe. Do you get the impression she might be a tad schizophrenic. Her constant harping-on about Muslims (who make up such a tiny minority here)borders on the obsessive. I would prescribe a massive dose of Chlorpromazine and Lithium. Better still, Susan, why don’t you just abandon ship and go and live somewhere in the world where people share your racist views, and leave those of us (like jonesy and Danny) to enjoy the wonderful liberal land we live in. Thanks to all the folk who have made this an interesting debate but it has become just page after page of mad-Susan-rant so I am leaving now. Bye.

Nov 7, 2008 - 11:34 am 97. susan:

of course garet likes jonesy, they are both clueless and live in total denial. It’s almost incredible how you are unable to address a single issue. Not even one. Not a single attempt to disprove.

we have 2 drug addicts on the thread. Go and shoot up your dose somewhere else.

So muslims are such a tiny minority in the uk, so if they are able to establish sharia courts and be above the law like they do it really means that you british are entirely dhimmified and more than collapsed.

Garet, I would prescribe you to grow a pair and stop being a whiny sissy, but spine and courage cannot be bought or taught, that’s why you will always be a total loser.

And the racist should be directed to people like yourself who wish a total defeat for israel. What do you call it? oh yeah, disgusting anti-semitism. We thought it was over but people like yourself will always be ready to sell the jews like it happened in the 30s with Hitler and his muslim friends.

It must suck to be you, immensely.

PS, it must be you and the other idiot who leave free and democratic lands to fly to “liberal” places. I told you already, most of europe is going right, so it’s time that you pick up your bag and go to Cuba or North Korea.

That is the liberal you deserve.

Nov 7, 2008 - 11:56 am 98. Anonymous:

Bob L. Sorry Bob, forgot you asked for this ‘whale’ to spout! The guy who is being protected by the USA, while wanted for a civilian plane bomb, is called Luis Posada Carriles. Completely ‘coincidentally’ (of course) he is a former CIA employee. The 79-year-old is wanted by two Latin American states for masterminding the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner, in which 73 innocent civilians died. He is also being investigated for the 1997 bombing of a hotel in the Cuban capital, Havana, which killed an Italian tourist. (Can I hear the rabid brigade shouting: “Serves him right for having his holiday in Cuba!”)He was jailed in Venezuela in 1976 after being found guilty of bombing the Cuban plane, then in 1985 Posada escaped (mmm, wonder how, old CIA friends maybe?) and is now living in that bastion of the ‘war on terror’, the US of A! So is George W right? Should we treat any state which harbors a terrorist as a terrorist state?
Secondly, three employees of the NatWest Bank, in the UK, were extradited because of alleged fraud, without needing a court hearing here. I have no idea if they were guilty or not, but the American courts found them guilty and jailed them The point is, if the situation were in reverse, and the UK wanted to extradite three American bankers they would be protected (because of US constitutional law). Maybe you think that is fair (I’m sure the rabid brigade would find some reason to justify this), but for many of us, it smacks of good old double standards. One law for you, one law for us. And that, I contend, is a result of the very American exceptionalism I mentioned in my first post. Within the last month, the US military refused to provide any eye-witness evidence to the UK inquest into the friendly-fire death of three UK servicemen. Can you put your hand on your heart and tell me that under the reversed circumstances, the USA would be comfortable with that? So my question to America would be: “On exactly what basis do you believe you are SUCH a special nation, that rules accepted by most of the world as rational and humane, should not have to apply to you?”

Hope that clarifies the point. From a non-marxist, non-muslim, non-Jewish, non-communist, non-anti-american, non-anti-semite, non-burka wearing, non- Trotskist, er, and any of the other categories that for some reason, people keep labelling me with. (Just to be clear)

Nov 7, 2008 - 1:14 pm 99. M Garrett:

Bob L. Sorry Bob, forgot you asked for this ‘whale’ to spout! The guy who is being protected by the USA, while wanted for a civilian plane bomb, is called Luis Posada Carriles. Completely ‘coincidentally’ (of course) he is a former CIA employee. The 79-year-old is wanted by two Latin American states for masterminding the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner, in which 73 innocent civilians died. He is also being investigated for the 1997 bombing of a hotel in the Cuban capital, Havana, which killed an Italian tourist. (Can I hear the rabid brigade shouting: “Serves him right for having his holiday in Cuba!”)He was jailed in Venezuela in 1976 after being found guilty of bombing the Cuban plane, then in 1985 Posada escaped (mmm, wonder how, old CIA friends maybe?) and is now living in that bastion of the ‘war on terror’, the US of A! So is George W right? Should we treat any state which harbors a terrorist as a terrorist state?
Secondly, three employees of the NatWest Bank, in the UK, were extradited because of alleged fraud, without needing a court hearing here. I have no idea if they were guilty or not, but the American courts found them guilty and jailed them The point is, if the situation were in reverse, and the UK wanted to extradite three American bankers they would be protected (because of US constitutional law). Maybe you think that is fair (I’m sure the rabid brigade would find some reason to justify this), but for many of us, it smacks of good old double standards. One law for you, one law for us. And that, I contend, is a result of the very American exceptionalism I mentioned in my first post. Within the last month, the US military refused to provide any eye-witness evidence to the UK inquest into the friendly-fire death of three UK servicemen. Can you put your hand on your heart and tell me that under the reversed circumstances, the USA would be comfortable with that? So my question to America would be: “On exactly what basis do you believe you are SUCH a special nation, that rules accepted by most of the world as rational and humane, should not have to apply to you?”

Hope that clarifies the point. From a non-marxist, non-muslim, non-Jewish, non-communist, non-anti-american, non-anti-semite, non-burka wearing, non- Trotskist, er, and any of the other categories that for some reason, people keep labelling me with. (Just to be clear)

BTW, Apologies if this is repeated twice, it appeared to have gone missing the first time

Nov 7, 2008 - 1:22 pm 100. Evidence Based Spouting:

Jeez, Susan if you are getting you information from the Daily Telegraph maybe you should read a better quality unbiased sources, before posting. The Telegraph is Tabloid crap designed to appeal to folks with limited intellectual capacity! QED

Nov 7, 2008 - 4:25 pm 101. susan:

Prove that the article of the daily telegraph is not true. There is no sharia courts in the uk, a jew was not

Oh yeah… you can’t. It is not my fault that the majority of british “press” (and I use the term loosely) is intellectually prostituted to the muslim cause.

Nov 8, 2008 - 4:41 am 102. jonesy55:

Susan, I’ve no idea if the article in the telegraph is 100% accurate or not, maybe it is, maybe the newspaper is misrepresenting the facts because it has an agenda and it knows what its readers like to read, it wouldn’t be the first time.

What I do no for A FACT is that the area in question is not a ‘no-go area’ for non-muslims because I have been there on many occassions myself, have you?? No, I thought not. It is predominantly Asian and most of those Asians are muslim but if you took the time to move away from your keyboard and venture into the real world for a few moments, you would see plenty of non-muslims walking down Alum Roack Road, doing their shopping, going about their daily business.

Even if the story is 100% accurate, it just proves that 1 policeman is an idiot.

It is difficult to take anything you say seriously when you claim to know exactly how 1.2 billion people around the world think and what their motives and opinions are despite not personally knowing any of them. You will have to forgive me for being sceptaical of your claims and preferring the evidence I see first hand in my life.

And yes, it is quite clear that there are no sharia courts in the UK. There are Sharia based arbitration systems for civil matters such as inheritance, dispute resolution etc, just as there are jewish arbitration systems for civil matters that people can choose to use if both parties agree. In fact arbitration can use any set of principles if both parties agree, this is nothing new. You can even find a similar set-up in Texas.

Nov 9, 2008 - 11:12 pm 103. deguello:

It’s carnival time in the good ‘ol USA together with an affirmative action lord of misrule, to direct his demagogue fodder,cretins in a farce called:”The decline of the US.” Watch it! Live it! Love it! Leave it! End it!

Nov 10, 2008 - 10:13 am 104. Mario:

Europe is full of left wing maniacs who have no idea what the real world (or even the real USA) is like. They are raised on a steady diet of antiAmerican marxism force fed to them by power hungry political cretons. Funny that euros like to preach to Americans about fairness when their entire system is still shaped on the idea that power should come from the top down. Pathetic dweebs!

Nov 19, 2008 - 3:27 pm

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