Racism or Sociology? A Bundesbank Official Stirs Controversy
The provocative remarks on Turkish and Arab immigrants that are making waves in Germany.
Earlier this month, German central banker Thilo Sarrazin was relieved of part of his duties at the German Bundesbank after disparaging comments he made about Turkish and Arab immigrants in Berlin sparked controversy and charges of racism. Numerous commentators, including the Social Democratic MP Sebastian Edathy and trade union leader Uwe Foullong, have accused Sarrazin of employing the same style of discourse as Germany’s “extreme right” — i.e., neo-Nazi — parties. Stephan Kramer, the general secretary of Germany’s semi-official Central Council of Jews in Germany, went still further, accusing Sarrazin of forming part of the intellectual tradition of “Göring, Goebbels, und Hitler.” In light of the obvious centrality of anti-Semitism to Nazi ideology and Sarrazin’s pronounced philo-Semitism, the comment is more than a little strange. (Kramer has since retracted the remark.) The Berlin district attorney’s office is reportedly considering bringing charges against Sarrazin for incitement to racial hatred or “Volksverhetzung.”
Sarrazin’s defenders — who are few and far between in the established media and far more numerous on the Web — accuse his critics of taking his remarks out of context. Only a handful of his remarks have been widely cited in the traditional media. These include, for instance, a comment about immigrant families that “are constantly producing more and more little girls in headscarves.” The remarks are contained in a far more wide-ranging interview on the economic problems and prospects of Berlin. From 2002 until April of this year, Sarrazin was the city official in charge of Berlin’s finances or “Finanzsenator.” The full interview, which appeared in the quarterly Lettre International, tops out at over 6,000 words: the equivalent of roughly an 8,000 word text in English.
Even on closer inspection, however, some of Sarrazin’s remarks clearly at least flirt with racial prejudice and even eugenics.
When one considers, moreover, the contributions of Turkish “guest workers” to Germany’s post-war “economic miracle” and the discrimination and even violence of which they have been the object, the vehemence of Sarrazin’s remarks about Turks seems particularly unjust. Sarrazin accuses Turks in Germany of being on the whole both “unwilling” and “incapable” of integrating into German society. But the policies of the German state have clearly contributed to the marginalization of Turkish immigrants. For decades, to take only the most obvious example, children born in Germany of Turkish immigrant parents were not even accorded citizenship. Still today, they are in fact only accorded a kind of “pre-citizenship,” which can be withdrawn when they reach adulthood.
On the other hand, when Sarrazin’s remarks are restored to their context, it is equally clear that they form part of an overall analysis of the interaction between immigration and the generous German social welfare system that is heavily sociological in character. Moreover, far from being an all-purpose xenophobe in the spirit of the classic German neo-Nazi slogan “Foreigners Out!”, Sarrazin makes a point of singing the praises of certain immigrant groups … as opposed to others.
Even what could appear to outsiders as the most radical of Sarrazin’s opinions is in fact not so radical in the German context. Thus, Sarrazin calls for a full stop to present immigration other than of “highly qualified” workers. In principle, however, it is already German policy only to accept “highly qualified” workers as new immigrants. An exception is made for the children or spouses of immigrants who are already settled in Germany. It should be noted, moreover, that supposed “ethnic Germans” from the former Soviet Union and other former Eastern bloc countries have an unrestricted right to settle in Germany. They are treated as a category entirely apart from the “non-Germanic” immigrants.
Sarrazin’s use of the expression “underclass” (Unterschicht) has been a cause of particular unease. It has even been suggested that he fully identifies Berlin’s Turks and Arabs with this “underclass.” But Sarrazin is in fact explicit that “native” Germans also belong to Berlin’s “underclass.” On closer inspection, it is clear that he is using the term as a structural category to refer to a segment of the population that is chronically unemployed or underemployed — unquestionably, a major problem in Berlin. The Harvard sociologist William Julius Wilson has long used the term in much the same sense in his studies of the so-called “black underclass” in American cities. When, however, Sarrazin identifies “underclass births” as a problem, it is clear that he has crossed the line from sociology into the far murkier territory of “socio-biology” or even eugenics.
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John Rosenthal’s writings on European politics and transatlantic relations have appeared in English, French, and German in such leading publications as Policy Review, Les Temps Modernes, and Merkur. He holds a PhD in philosophy and he taught political philosophy and classical German philosophy before turning to journalism. More of his work can be found at Transatlantic Intelligencer.
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69 Comments
1. Terry:Everything he said is correct, just not politically correct. He should be commended not condemned for saying what most people know is true & accurate.
Oct 24, 2009 - 2:02 am 2. gboisjo:Parasites and bloodsuckers whose Islamic agenda is to populate and conquer by attrition or the wearing away by resignation. The left in europe deserves everything it will get. Mealy mouthed and pathetic.
Oct 24, 2009 - 4:19 am 3. pelaut:Just read Mark Feyn’s “America Alone”
Oct 24, 2009 - 6:08 am 4. Numerian:In Europe, as in America, rigid speech codes have been imposed by the political elite that reflect the prevailing social/cultural values and norms of that class, and to prevent public discussion of matters that the elite do not want the democratic system to address.
Oct 24, 2009 - 6:15 am 5. Moho:These were the quotes in question, but for some reason, they’re buried in the middle of your info dump. Even in context, they at best show a person who relies on anecdotal evidence [if that] to feed his own preferred prejudice.
I do not have to respect someone who does nothing. I do not have to respect anyone who lives off the state and at the same time rejects the state, who does not decently provide for the education of their children and who is constantly producing more and more little girls in headscarves. This goes for seventy percent of the Turkish population and ninety percent of the Arab population in Berlin.…
If there was a context that made this any more than a drunken xenophobic screed, I’d like to know why you left it out.
The mayor of [the Berlin district of] Neukölln tells a story about an Arab woman who had a sixth child, because her welfare benefits would allow her then to have a larger apartment. We have to leave behind these sorts of structures. One has to assume that human talent is in part socially conditioned, but in part also inherited. For demographic reasons, the path that we are going down is leading to a continuous decline in the number of intelligent overachievers. This is no way to construct a sustainable society. … That sounds very demagogic (stammtischnah), but it can be very precisely empirically demonstrated.
You’re a coward. Defend him, if you have the stones. But this middling muddle is a perfect example of why few people can respect the right today.
Oct 24, 2009 - 7:48 am 6. vb:John,
Die Achse des Guten links to an article by Necla Kelek on Sarrazin. She supports his remarks.
I’m not sure you can interpret a eugenics motive in Sarrazin’s article. I think he is talking about behaviour: If a subgroup of Turks don’t participate in the wider culture, they are determining how their children will turn out, and that will be in a way that is good neither for the children nor for the society as a whole. If the number of children of an “underclass” that does not value education reaches a tipping point in certain schools, then those schools are lost. Furthermore, the children grow up in a no-man’s land between Germany and Turkey where their frustration and resentment can only grow.
Oct 24, 2009 - 7:55 am 7. cfbleachers:Sociology has no place in polite society. Political science has no place in political correctness.
The study of non-performing assimilation has no more place in Western culture than does the study of non-performing notes has a place in the handing out of TARP funds.
When rampant leftism takes over a society, you start each study with the conclusion you wish to reach, then you fill in the necessary “facts” that “support” the conclusion. After which, you have a lapdog media plant stories that broadcast your “message”.
This works for global warming…uh…I mean…”climate change”, it works for the demonizing of other worldviews, it works for the destruction of EVERY point of view from center-left (Lieberman) all the way to the full right side of the political spectrum.
Boiled down to the green peanut…what this guy was saying, at its most basic…some groups assimilate into German society fully and advance the highest goals of society in education, professions, and cultural activities.
They do well on university entrance exams, become doctors, lawyers, bankers, arts and entertainment professionals.
Others, do not assimilate as well. They not only use…but grow to depend upon the state to provide for them. They have higher birth rates as well, which creates a greater burden on the state.
He did not seem to address solving the problems associated with this, but was throwing up his hands and saying that it was going on for so long that it did not seem to have a solution in his mind.
The study of why some groups assimilate with little disruption, in one generation…or two, and why others could spend several generations and not assimilate…is a political fireball. You can’t touch it. You can’t even look at it without being blinded by the heat it sheds.
That’s too bad. Because if the day ever came when people could have the courage to have an honest discussion about it…maybe somebody could think of a way to fix it. It exists. We just don’t know precisely why.
As it is…nothing to see here…move along.
Oct 24, 2009 - 8:05 am 8. Filthy Screw:What did he say that was untrue? I am not aware of European patterns of immigration. I am aware of American patterns and much of what he says is true from this end. Why shouldn’t it be true for Germany?
If what he says is untrue, he should be showed the error of his ways. If it’s true, then quit shooting the messenger.
Oct 24, 2009 - 8:44 am 9. Blackwater:Look, Europe in particular is under a kind of demographic and cultural jihad by radical muslims. They aren’t even trying to deny that that’s exactly what they’re doing. Denying that blatant reality out of political corectness is getting ridiculous frankly. And besides, it’s not like anyone is calling for the murder or arrest of muslims or low class immigrants. They simply want to reform their immigration policies to only allow in productive intelligent immigrants in general who have solid clean backgrounds. Only in the ridiculously white guilting politically correct West is such common sense policies decried and denounced as racist and “Neo-Nazism”…
Oct 24, 2009 - 9:05 am 10. robotech master:I’m not seeing anything overly racist in anything you’ve posted here…
Oct 24, 2009 - 9:16 am 11. Blackwater:And oh yeah, funny how no mention is ever made of how arabs and turks treat immigrants and religious minorities. Which is of course far worse yet is never dealt with or criticized…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpCBAa0VX1Y
Oct 24, 2009 - 9:19 am 12. Bagaman:My parents are from Germany. My mother used to go back there twice a year to see relatives. She stopped going back largely because the way of life there has become so different from what she remembers due to the flood of immigrants that now call Germany home.
I have an ex-neighbor in her 40’s who recently returned to Germany for her job after a 20 year absence. She says pretty much the same thing. One thing she said struck me – that long ago they had a chance to change immigration policy but it has gone too far now, there is no going back, their way of life is gone.
Another German friend I used to work with told me many stories of how the German government could not deny cable television to the poor, and many other entitlements. All on the backs of those paying the bills.
I fear that 30 or 40 years from now I will look back to the country I grew up in and not recognize it. A lot of Dems and Repubs will hear that and think I’m a xenophobe. My parents were immigrants. They came here legally. They were assimilated, became US citizens and probably know more about US history and civics than most kids in college now. What I have is not a fear of foreigners, but a dread of losing the American way of life to people that don’t respect our laws (or they wouldn’t have come here illegally) and don’t have an interest in becoming American citizens. There are plenty of exceptions (for example some illegal immigrants have gone into the armed forces, and I’m sure many others value their hispanic heritage but treasure being an American more – those people need to be on the fast track to citizenship) but right now my perception is that many more just want to milk the system. Free health care, speak Spanish not English, and fly the Mexican flag not the American. They assimilate us rather than the other way around.
Will we allow our country to become what Germany is now? Will we look back and think “well, we could have changed it back then but we didn’t, and now its too late”?
Oct 24, 2009 - 9:39 am 13. George S.:he should not be dismissed. like the other poster said it isn’t politically correct.
time to leave the PC language behind and tackle these issues with honesty.
Oct 24, 2009 - 9:43 am 14. Suzy:In 100 years, if any white civilization is left to defend itself, it will take military force (not mere words) to save ourselves. Our borders must be protected, immigration law stiffened and enforced, illegals living within our borders must be expelled, and welfare given only to the disabled.
Oct 24, 2009 - 9:43 am 15. EscapeVelocity:That is how the Jews did it in Israel.
Oct 24, 2009 - 10:26 am 16. Glenn Donovan:This man is a clear thinker, but he sets himself up to run right into the buzz-saw of the progressive-left, which bases it’s entire political philosophy on sociology (see my recent article on how this affects Obama’s world-view http://libertariancomment.com/why-obama-thinks-the-right-is-crazy/). They have already concluded that the West is oppressive, racist and corrupt – so the only posture one can properly adopt morally is to welcome the victims of our past and ongoing crimes. They breezily move from individual motivations to national ones, and reject such quaint notions as individual responsibility as tropes that we use to oppress. We need to be much smarter about how we criticize these folks, instead allowing them to expose their own hypocrisy and inanity. I like what Breitbart did recently with the ACORN stuff, dripping it out to allow the predictable refutations to be shattered as they were trotted out. This guy just asked for it, and voila he’s getting it. It’s a tale for all of us to learn from.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:14 am 17. Delia:“Press ‘1′ for English”.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:17 am 18. Moho:I fear that 30 or 40 years from now I will look back to the country I grew up in and not recognize it.
What always makes me laugh about this kind of thing is how little responsibility you people take for your own choices. Its you that lets corporations make the kinds of decisions to bring immigrants here to do work most Americans don’t want to do for less money than they would accept. You never complain about that as long as the result is cheaper goods. Your choices bring immigrants here, and that salient fact is why the government never takes action to stop the immigrant flow. Then when their children work harder than yours, beating them out for education and job opportunities, achieving the American dream, you excoriate them for changing your country. Its you changing your country with your myopic desire for cheap goods that feeds your undercutting of labor and your support of whatever corporations might want. If you really want to stop immigration, then you’d better start getting your compatriots to take lower wages and eat more sh^t at work.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:19 am 19. Lynn B:Moho…Spain put a lock on immigration. Only professionals need apply. They also wanted to have more Poles immigrate. The problem is cultural and not really prejudicial. Poor undereducated immigrants are a burden on the rest of society. Their own countries have made them that way. There is always an underclass that will be forever present in all societies, the answer to the problem should have been addressed years ago.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:24 am 20. Qwerty:Suzy, skin pigment’s got nothing to do with it. As the man says, vietnamese or many other immigrant groups come and produce violin prodigies, scientists and engineers. I would add to that Arab Chrisitans for that matter. But there is something about the culture and the ideology of the Submission Cult that’s, you know.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:25 am 21. ella:Oh Moho Moho. The man nowhere implied that intelligence has genetic component; but if he did — do you have a problem with it? I thought it’s quite obvious from data, and a proper societal structures would allow and encourage the gifted ones achieve their potential. Which the strata that bring with them the Submission Cult obviously don’t.
He is not racist. In fact only “14 percent of ethnic Turkish 20 to 39-year-olds have completed enough education to make them eligible to go to university” and half of employable Turkish population in Berlin are on welfare.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:53 am 22. Delia:Not only many of the ethnic Turks do not want to assimilate but the long-standing turkish governmental policy is strongly tilted against assimilation and integration of ethnic turks living abroad. Article 62 of Turkish constitution states that “The state shall ……….take the necessary measures to safeguard their [Turks working abroad] ties with the home country…” ‘ And last year Erdogan in his speech in Germany called assimilation of turks “a crime against humanity.”
Germany (and Europe) has a large problem and their politicians prefer to follow three monkeys as they “see no evil, hear no evil, speak (of) no evil” but in the end they and their native constituency shall not be spared evil.
“Press ‘2′ for Farsi”
Oct 24, 2009 - 2:08 pm 23. tom swift:Perhaps I’m just not sufficiently sensitive to things I should be offended about, but I don’t see any xenophobia, scapegoatism, racism, sexism, eugenicism, or any other of the popular -isms in Sarrazin’s statements. He’s talking about genuine, and bloody obvious, social problems, and trying to articulate them clearly and precisely, rather than obscuring them in the customary PC fog. I can see why that would land him in agua caliente in Europe, but it’s no reason for us to dump on him too.
Oct 24, 2009 - 2:14 pm 24. Thomas_L.....:Sounds like a jerk to me. To point out common faults in a demographic is one thing and these days contraversial enough but a term like “underclass” should be extremely distasteful to Americans. Not exactly racism but definitely the old fashioned European class system rearing its ugly head. In’t this why people left Europe for America in the first place?
Oct 24, 2009 - 3:01 pm 25. Thomas_L......:Sorry. That 2nd last sentence should have read, “If not exactly racism, definitely the old fashioned etc.”
Oct 24, 2009 - 3:04 pm 26. stuart williamson:Oh, that merry MoHo (abreviation for Mole Hole – blind as a mole. buried deep in the warm, dark, wormy loam of text-book neo-communism), laughing at the ridiculous believers in free enterprise and free speech.
Here is the perfect example of the folly of the Social Justice school of moral equivalence Socialism. . The Muslim faith is just as nice as the Christian faith or Satanism. Judge that ye be not judged. Who are we Americans, with our evil and greedy imperialistic capitalistic history, to be critical of ethnic cleansers? Who cares if they refuse to assimilate or permit religious diversity? To paraphrase the great philosopher. Chairman Mao Tsetung, “We fight our war, they fight theirs”. Or, as they might say in Community Organized Chicago, “If we bring knives, its OK if they bring guns”.
There is only one term for those who encourage a nation to be so tolerant of the intolerant that we sit, complacent in our moral superiority, until the intolerant take over our political system – not by force – but simply by reproduction on a scale 3 to 4 times that of the complacent native citizenry. The term is “incredibly stupid”. And to cower when the doctrinairely intolerant berate us for our intolerance, because you truly believe they are so intolerant that they might actually kill us, is most assuredly cowardice beneath contempt.
So laugh away, down in your your pitiful, dark Mole Hole – too cowardly to put your name on your sophomoric. vapid, “look-at-me!’, ranting.
Oct 24, 2009 - 3:27 pm 27. Moho:Stuart. The fact that no one else takes you to task here reflects poorly on the site.
Oct 24, 2009 - 4:49 pm 28. EscapeVelocity:I think we should annex Mexico….that way, everyone gets something out of the deal.
But Moho, you project failings on Americans, which are directly related to their preference for liberty and live and let live.
Be careful what you wish for.
Oct 24, 2009 - 6:23 pm 29. gerry:The Nazi Party was LEFT WING not far right!
Oct 24, 2009 - 7:30 pm 30. stuart williamson:No, trotskyite troll. it reflects broad agreement.
Oct 24, 2009 - 7:31 pm 31. SeesBeyond:Sorry, MoHo, it would be a mistake to assume that silence implies disagreement, or that any taking to task of Stuart for his comments is needed or warranted. I fully agree with his analysis and conclusions about the nature of the problem. What the article is about is a frank discussion about social situations that are causing large scale social problems in Europe. But people are having difficulty gaining traction to discuss them because of what is effectively a form of censorship imposed by political correctness that puts constraints on language needed for such a discussion.
Thilo Sarrazin appears to be a thoughtful man who is trying to understand the demographic changes occurring in Germany. He reports what he sees and how it is negatively affecting him and his fellow Germans. Several posters here who are native Germans concur with him and his analysis. Who are you and on what grounds are you qualified to criticize and second guess them? From your posts all I see is your taking armchair pot shots. Your very choice of vocabulary betrays both your immaturity and your political orientation, both of which are revealed with your inability to distinguish abstract principles from the concrete realities experienced by the locals in Germany who are somewhat put off by the situation they are faced with.
Oct 24, 2009 - 7:33 pm 32. herzog:Turks the victims of violence? Well, I guess at a population of 2,5 million they occasionally are — mostly by Lebanese youth though, who are even more anti-social and aggressive than they themselves are.
Otherwise it is the Turks, together with other Muslims (and a fair sprinkle of Christian Balkan) immigrants who are vastly disproportionately criminal and victimize the German (as well as the law-abiding non-Muslim immigrant) population.
Oct 24, 2009 - 8:39 pm 33. Dr. Bukk:Polygamy is the surest way to overrun your host country, and bring them down with your exponentially expanding welfare-dependent inbred progeny. I’ll take our Mexicans over Muslims any day.
The biggest barrier to immigration reform here is we would have to pay Social Security to them. Right now, our bankrupt congress is depending on all the money they pay in with no way to collect later, because they have fake papers.
And Qwerty, there is solid evidence for genetic ties to intelligence. Just look at the Ashkenazi Jews, the smartest people on earth. In the past, they promoted their most gifted people, instead of saddling them with the burdens of supporting the elderly and the parasites.
Oct 24, 2009 - 8:41 pm 34. vdorta:#12 Bagaman, I understand very well what you say. I immigrated legally from Venezuela thirty years ago and became a citizen in the eighties. My entire family thinks exactly like you do regarding the US and its future. Some Americans believe freedom is free and take many things for granted. I hope the current political and economic situation enlightens them or we’ll be in much deeper trouble than we already are.
Oct 24, 2009 - 10:45 pm 35. Ruebacca:the left needs welfare immigration. so importing unskilled illiterates into advanced economies is logical to them.
so he is a bigot.
Oct 24, 2009 - 11:56 pm 36. RightwingHippyChick:“When one considers, moreover, the contributions of Turkish “guest workers” to Germany’s post-war “economic miracle” and the discrimination and even violence of which they have been the object, the vehemence of Sarrazin’s remarks about Turks seems particularly unjust.”
What contribution? The Turkish community is a massive net loss to the taxpayer, and the German health system is also obliged to pay for all their family members who are still living in Turkey. The much trumpeted business and tax contribution they make quickly melts away into minus figures if you analyse the figures, and the amount of fraud that goes on to fleece social security is massive.
As for ‘violence’ against Turks, it’s rather the other way round, with Turkish/Arab gangs being the vast majority of intense offenders (80+ crimes per head) who are openly racist against Germans (calling them potatoes, sluts, shit-Germans etc). Sexual harassment of women (of all colours btw) is routine, even older Turkish/Arab men stoop to serially whispering obscenities at women who happen to pass them (’du ficki-ficki’ etc) and also grope them. This respectless hatred for people starts with many young Turkish/Arab boys being told by their parents that they don’t have to heed female teachers because men > women and Turks > Germans.
As for crime, we’re not only talking of simple robberies, but of assaults where old and young victims are deliberately and methodically beaten up in such a way that they remains forever crippled (direct kicks to the head are a favorite, followed by knifings(’ish mach dich Messer’) and gang rapes.
Incidentally, racial abuse by Turks against Germans is not legally incitement, since the majority cannot be legally abused in Germany (cool eh? Imagine if it was legal in the US to call whites ‘crackers’, ‘hoes/sluts’ ’shitty Germans (or Americans)’) Also, many black people are on the losing end of this particular stick too, there is a long list of people (black and white) languishing in coma and wheelchairs after being ‘culturally enriched’ the Turkish/Arab way.
Lastly, Sarrazin has very broad agreement (70%+) in the population, and many mainstream politicians and philosophers have defended what he said by now and the boss of the Bundesbank, Mr. Weber who tried to mob Sarrazin out of his job (and failed) with a politically motivated vendetta to the detriment of the Bundesbank has now lost the chance of any further promotion in the future, he was in the running to lead the European Bank, but that has now been shelved. Incidentally, Mr. Weber had read the interview before it was published and permitted publishing, it was only after the row erupted that he started to bully Sarrazin — Weber is a political opportunist, and not a genuine person, as everyone can see for themselves.
Your article is however a classic Anti-Sarrazin piece of spin against Germans, and I hope I’ve debunked your assertions somewhat. It’s not that I mind that you’re against Germans and their outlook in life, it’s just that I think you’ve been rather dishonest and selective in your reasoning here, and instead of adding to the debate, you attempted to poison it. For those who want to read more and make their own minds up as to what is going on in Germany, try here: http://pi-news.net/ (German) and here: http://www.pi-news.org/ (English) Pi is Germany’s biggest pro-American, pro-Israel political blog, a sort of mini Pajamas. Another good hunting ground for critical writing is here: http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/ — that’s Henryk Broder’s blog. Enjoy!
Ps.: Mr. Sarrazin also said he would warmly welcome Jewish people to settle instead of Turks and Arabs who refuse education and integration… not exactly racist, just realist. Note that no other group of immigrants creates as much trouble and crime — there are lots of Vietnamese, Indians, Chinese and other people, somehow they never feature in ‘integration/crime’ debates, it’s always about Turks and Arabs of the lower socioeconomic classes, educated Turks btw have Sarrazin’s outlook on the entire situation, as those very people are also creating many problems in Turkey itself.(read Nekla Kelek’s books for example and the many other laizistic Turkish authors who desperately try and tell the truth about the crazy situation that harms us all(including the Grey Wolf/Islamist fundamentalists we’re talking about here…))
Oct 25, 2009 - 1:50 am 37. John Bates Thayer:Germany ceased to exist on 5/8/1945.
Oct 25, 2009 - 2:05 am 38. vb:# 24 Thomas L,
There is a huge difference between an underclass that is defined as not having the right ancestors or attending the right college and an underclass that results from denying opportunities to your own offspring. The latter is what Sarrazin is talking about. I think he would like a defined minimum of willingness to assimilate that would, after the first generation, allow immigrant offspring a chance to participate fully in the society and to set their own goals.
The problem in Germany now has historical roots. Both Germans and Turks who immigrated decades ago assumed that the latter were guest workers who would return home. No one saw a need for better integration into the German society. Many of the immigrants used traditional arranged marriages to bring in other immigrants, so that in each family, the integration process did not take a normal course. There wasn’t one pair of immigrant parents whose children learned the language of the new country and acquired the skills to get on with their lives. Instead, each generation started with one spouse from Anatolya who could not give the children the basic language skills needed to succeed in school. Of course, these children saw how others lived a more comfortable life, but it was not available to them. This breeds resentment, frustration, and anti-social behavior. It also doesn’t help that defined sex roles are so different in the two cultures. So just as the testosterone starts to affect boys, they are not getting a clear message about male and female roles. Even a teenaged boy who might be interested in marrying an integrated Turkish girl or a German can find himself forced to marry a second cousin in Turkey whom he doesn’t know.
No one thought about these problems years ago. No one could help these immigrants identify the hard choices they would have to make for their children’s sake. The problem was compounded by the fact that some of the immigrants were better educated, more urban, more comfortable with a secular state, and ultimately more succesful. This group had contact with Germans, leading many of the latter to overlook what was happening among the less educated, traditionally rural groups in the cities. You ended up with some Germans blaming everything on a xenophobic native culture and other Germans resenting being blamed when even third-generation Turkish families made little effort to speak German.
All of this has been pushed under the rug by political correctness and complicated by post 9/11 worries about radicalism. There are definitely some people in Germany who understand what is happening and are trying to remedy the situation from the German side. There are also some Turks who feel that right now the ball is in the court of the Turks, who have to begin to acknowledge and deal with their own problems. Some seem to see the German multi-culti types as enablers of Turkish dysfunction. I just read a Spiegel interview with Seyran Ates (Oct 12,2009) in which she said that Sarrazin is right in his assessment, but that it should be Turks who are saying these things. Ates has just published a book on the need for sexual liberation in Islam, and I saw a blurb on TV the other day that she has now gone underground because of threats.
Oct 25, 2009 - 3:33 am 39. vb:I just read comment 36. I will add an anecdote from a Kelek book, Die verlorenen Soehne: In an interview with a Turkish teen who was in a youth correctional institution. She asked how it was there, and he replied, “not so bad. It’s the first time anyone ever paid attention to me.” Anyone who tries to deny such problems within the Turkish community in Germany is condemning future generations to a worse fate.
Once again, this is not the situation for all Turks, but the more it dominates social norms, the worse things will be for everyone.
Oct 25, 2009 - 3:55 am 40. Thomas_L.....:vb – Problems arise when a large group of people come to another country and for one reason or another do not assimilate with the existing population. As I said, however, it’s one thing and difficult enough to criticize a demographic in this day and age but quite another to call them names. The European class distinctions and an unwillingness on behalf of the Germans themselves are part of the problem, no? They did bring a large population of Turks to Germany to clean their messes, didn’t they? They haven’t exactly been successful as seeing these people as Germans, have they?
Oct 25, 2009 - 5:49 am 41. vb:The US traditionally has done a much better job of this difficult transition. That of allowing people to fit in, if they want to. It only takes a generation to make full fledged Americans. Canada, on the other hand, is more welcoming than Europe but like Europe, although by trumpeting multiculturalism, encourages people to ghetto-ize.
If you want to see assimilation, however, let’s ask ourselves how Indonesia’s 200 million became about 88% muslim? Look at a map.
Thomas L – You are certainly right about the class and other distinctions in Germany. In the 50s and early 60s, the Catholic kids and Protestant kids in my husband’s small village school didn’t play together, even at recess. But while the more sophisticated Kultur elite people were becoming Europeans and Weltburger, they ignored the fact that the immigrants were even more insular than village Germans. Oddly, the Turks who lived in the smaller towns and villages are often those who became integrated, the inhabitants of sophisticated cities delighted in buying fruit and vegies in the Turkish enclaves, but never really got to know how the families lived. Germany’s divided school system, which separates children on the basis of academic ability in 5th grade also contributed to isolation of immigrant groups, especially in larger communities.
It has always been easier and cheaper for Turks to visit Turkey, which helped keep the family ties and responsibilities current. Satellite TV has also meant that Turkish kids didn’t have to learn German to watch cartoons. Distance and the difficulty of communicating with the homeland helped America establish a culture of accomodating immigrants, as did the low population density, which required neighbors to help one another.
I personally think that Sarrazin’s remarks were a sign of frustration rather than class consciousness or snobbery. As a Berlin senator, he undoubtedly has been involved in various projects to integrate immigrants. He would also be aware of native German welfare recipients who can recite their rights like a lawyer but never have time to take their kids to a library. It is a thin line between helping the needy and pursuing policies that cement groups into into a class with no perspectives.
I have been following this situation for a long time, and I can’t come up with a single cause, much less an easy solution. I have observed that the most integrated place in the city where I live is the McDonalds. The last time I was there, a Turkish family sat at the next table. One of the young daughters had a pink hair streak. And there are always plenty of well-off Germans there with their grandkids (Guess whose idea that is?). Who would have thought that the Big Mac might do more for integration than the UN?
One more thing: Those Turks were recruited, but many came to escape poverty and lack of opportunity at home. They didn’t plan to stay.
Oct 25, 2009 - 7:21 am 42. Tournefort:“They did bring a large population of Turks to Germany to clean their messes, didn’t they?”
Did Germany go to Turkey and load Turks on a ship and then transport them to Germany?
Or did the availability of jobs in Germany (and France and, I suppose, other European countries)
attract immigrants from other countries who came ON THEIR OWN? And were soon followed by family members and friends and everyone else who heard it was possible to make a better living in Europe than in Turkey?
My understanding is that it has worked both ways. At times European “boom” economies have
created the need and opportunity for employment.
People from countries that did NOT offer those same opportunities immigrated to where it was possible to find employment and have a higher standard of living than their own countries offered.
“They haven’t exactly been successful as seeing these people as Germans, have they?”
I would imagine “seeing these people as Germans” is made more difficult because immigrants bring their cultural practices with them and Turkish culture is DECIDELY DIFFERENT from traditional German culture. Language, dress, religious practices and other cultural values and practices, all are not “German” and in some instances directly contradict not only German cultural practices but also German LAW.
We also should consider to what degree do Turkish immigrants WANT to fully integrate?
Oct 25, 2009 - 8:17 am 43. John "birther" Samford:Are there values and practices they are unwilling to abandon even though they are not a part of German culture, even against German law?
Are special “accommodations” demanded? If so, how do those “accomodations” affect German society in general and Germans individually?
Who cares! This Germany, after all. Any nation that forces it’s males to pee sitting down is finished. The corpse will still kick for a while, but they are done. Toast. Burnt crumbs in the bottom of the toaster toast. Stick a fork in ‘em. But not while they are sitting on the toilet.
Oct 25, 2009 - 8:20 am 44. Moho:VB…”In an interview with a Turkish teen who was in a youth correctional institution. She asked how it was there, and he replied, “not so bad. It’s the first time anyone ever paid attention to me.” Anyone who tries to deny such problems within the Turkish community in Germany is condemning future generations to a worse fate.”
I read an interview with a white kid who killed some Hispanics, where he said “My parents told me that immigrants are ruining our country”. Anyone who tries to deny such problems within the white community in the US is condemning future generations to a worse fate.
Note to the lower life forms. That’s satire. When you take one comment and extrapolate it to an entire community–anecdotal data–you’re really going out of your way to delegitimate any point you might actually have.
Oct 25, 2009 - 10:35 am 45. vb:Moho – Read Kelek’s books before you comment. That was one interview of Kelek’s that particularly stuck with me. I did not extrapolate it to a whole community, but used it to illustrate one aspect of a very complex problem. Kelek’s work is more comprehensive and she has received awards for it. Furthermore, I have read other things from other sources that support her work. How much research have you done in this area?
Oct 25, 2009 - 2:39 pm 46. gus:Wow. Seventy years ago “decent europeans” were squawking that “something had to be done” about another ethnic group that was destroying the moral and social fabric of european society. Well, the germans took care of that problem with widespread support from the rest of continental europe.
Oct 25, 2009 - 2:48 pm 47. EscapeVelocity:And now look, just sixty years after doing such a thorough job of cleansing europe, there’s another ethnic group threatening to destroy european society simply by breeding. Poor, poor Europeans.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
Godwin .
Take a lesson from the Japanese, and dont invite others in in the first place.
Oct 25, 2009 - 3:26 pm 48. EscapeVelocity:PS, I think that Europeans should start immigrating to countries around the world again. Then we can call all those people hatefilled xenophobic bigots when they object.
LOL!
Oct 25, 2009 - 3:27 pm 49. Alice:The average muslim immigrant to Europe has an IQ of 85 points. The average native European has an IQ of 100 points. The difference between population IQ means is 15 points — one full standard deviation. That is a qualitative difference, which means the newcomers will completely transform their host society, and not for the better.
The newcomers could never have created the marvelous European cultures that they are displacing and grinding to dust. They are a prolific and destructive element destined to rip Europe in a meatgrinder of tribalism and religious fanaticism.
Europeans, on the other hand, are simply not procreating. They are dooming themselves. The smarter ones try to immigrate to the Anglosphere, although Mr. Obama’s Brave New World may tend to drive many of them back to their roots.
Oct 25, 2009 - 4:57 pm 50. gus:Sorry alice, but that sort of stuff is straight out of the David Duke white supremacist handbook. Whatever deviation exists has to do with learning environment and cultural affinities, not biological reasons.
It’s funny though that the last time around, eurocentric bigots like yourself exterminated the cultural group whose IQ was one standard deviation above the European average. And that campaign of genocide was carried out so willingly for ostensibly the same reason–to save European culture from Asiatic domination.
Those fussy Europeans. If it isn’t one thing, it’s another.
Oct 25, 2009 - 6:06 pm 51. Dark Helmet:blah… blah …. blah…. blah…. blaaaaah.
A place nor a tribe is a race. The concept otherwise is A STINKING LIE.
Here, let me, once again, put an end to this crap before the first hoof comes out the gate.
Arab nor Turkish are a race. CASE CLOSED.
Of course, 99.9 % of you will miss this as it is just too easy.
DH
Oct 25, 2009 - 6:22 pm 52. EscapeVelocity:Well, I for one dont really think that biological intelligence variation amounts to a hill of beans. Its the culture stupid, always has been.
Some are better than others. Some are backwards and perpetuate backwardness and failure.
Now they should have every right to their own culture, however there is no need to bring these backward failed cultures into your country. There is no reason to subsidize backwards unsuccessful cultures via welfare and wealth redistribution.
Let em sink or swim of their own accord. The choice is the individuals. Failure or success. Success and wealth are not rights. If you subsidize backwardness and failed cultures, what you will get is more backward failed culture individuals. There is no impetus to change.
Its really quite simple.
Oct 25, 2009 - 6:58 pm 53. Marc Malone:#50 gus – Alice never said it was about skin color. She simply referred specifically to a narrow category, muslim immigrants. That would fit in with your comments about “cultural affinities”. You also made her point for her that the stupider people drag down the smarter people by sheer numbers. The Germans dragged down the smarter Jews. The Muslims now drag down the smarter Germans (and other Euros) by outbreeding them.
You’re making it as if Germans are always the bad guy, because they were the bad guy years ago. This time they are the victim. One could suggest that, “Karma is a bitch”, but it does not change the fatc that the stupid, as usual, drag down the smart by sheer weight of numbers. Unless a society chooses to aspire to celebrating the smart and achievers over the vapid and covetous, this will always be the case.
Germany nearly conquered Europe completely at one point. They used a path of military discipline, which failed in the end, as it always does by itself. England once ruled the world. They pursued a path of politics and patronage, but they rewarded success, and had no acceptance of failures or whiners. America broke free and pursued an even better path of individuality and meritocracy. We supplanted them in our superiority.
All three of these great powers are on their way out, now. All have turned away from celebrating the greater, and turned towards celebrating the lesser. The lesser drag down the great by sheer weight of numbers. Call it the entropy of the human enterprise. Always does evil drag down the human spirit.
Oct 25, 2009 - 7:27 pm 54. Life is not fair:Frankly, why there should Europe be importing millions of Muslims and giving them free housing and/or other benefits? Why? Is there any reason?
Sarrazin is right, unfortunately.
Oct 25, 2009 - 10:00 pm 55. gus:Marc Malone, you’ll forgive my laughter for the notion that the germans ‘dragged down’ the smarter Jews the same way the turks are ‘dragging down’ the germans. The germans carefully took every Jew they came across and murdered them, one by one. The fact that you think the turks in germany are somehow doing the same thing to germans only indicates the kind of xenophobia that makes things like the Holocaust possible in the first place.
Oct 26, 2009 - 10:07 am 56. Marie Claude:And similarly, your equation of growing Turkish immigration to germany with the sort of oppression germans meted out against Jews is more of the xenophobia that reminds us why europe has always been the bloodiest continent.
Just about every western country has to deal with immigration issues. But only a few people would equate that issue with the genocide germans carried out on Jews.
“Sarrazin” is a well known name in France, this is why it called me out to say that that was also the name we gave to the muslim invadors from charles Martel times, and it’s ironical that that this man is pointing on the diverse muslim immigrants as trouble makers !
globally I agree with the author’s article, except that I am doubtful for this small insertion :
I would be glad about this if it was a matter of Eastern European Jews who have an IQ 15 percent higher than the [native] German population
IQ doesn’t define someone’s intelligence but its ability to convert something into logical abstract concept at a given time, and that doesn’t include spacial intelligence ! (nor psychological intuition) uh, some would say that that isn’t a Jews speciality too, for they aren’t numerous as architect, landscapers…
This is to say that some professions attract more in one determined population, due to their cultural traditions, not because they are “more” inteligent, but “educated” !
otherwise, for my favorite counter-argumenters, I’m in Spain for an undetermined time, and if they feel like it, their appreciations, on what I should pay attention there, are welcome.
one remarck about the topic, view from here : been around Marazon and Murcia last week, and all the adverts in stores are translated into arabic signs too. Most of the agricultural seasonal workers are “Arabs”, even Blacks from muslim countries. I guess that “seasonal” is also a yearly occupation for tomatoes and vegetable plantations in greenhouses.
Now, they are discret as far as I have seen. Also young arab women work in factories (to set vegetable in tins). The funny thing is that they wore their enterprise “charlotte” (a green hood for cooking occupation), so I couldn’t say if they wore a veil
uh, I ate a wonderful Alicante Paella at noon !
Delia,
I’m trying to press on “spanish” after
Oct 26, 2009 - 12:57 pm 57. EscapeVelocity:Marie
Are the Moors re-establishing themselves in Spain?
Ive heard that Spain is trying to encourage immigration from Latin America. I know some numbers…but Im wondering if you encounter any?
Furthermore, how is Spains energy policy working out for them?
One last thing, is Anti Semitism on the rise in Spain?
Thanks.
Oct 26, 2009 - 2:29 pm 58. Marie Claude:Escape, I’m not giving you an “aware” point of view, just what my tourist’s eyes can see.
The moors are tolerated in agricultural aeras, though I haven’t seen any making friends or going to the same places as the Spanish for entertainments, or to the bars.
For the latin America immigration, I have seen quite a few girls a bit unclothed, apparently waiting for a “bus” on the road sides, hmmm, I’m thinking that they were making the “oldest” job !
Otherwise, I think immigration with Latin America, is favored ; if you had the opportunity to attend a spanish airport, you could see that the flights towards or coming from Latin America are considerated as inner flights, then no custom checkings.
Energy policy ? dunno right now, as the weather is quite gentle, about 25 to 30° C
I have seen a few metal wind mills in usual windy aeras, but the Spanish aren’t very worried about pollution, or for sparing anything they could afford. Trashes are littered in agricultural countrysides, cities on the coast are better maintained.
About antisemitism, I didn’t perceive it within my relation to Spanish population, I don’t think that Spanish discriminate them, for they are making the same things, or jobs.
One of the organisators of the Agility contest where we went as concurrents, had a jewish name (I believe), he was part of the team and quite a friendly guy.
Oct 26, 2009 - 4:04 pm 59. Dark Helmet:Hey…… that whooshing noise over the tops of all your heads …. it’s a plane called …. “they are not races”
You can’t be racist against a nation or religion or tribe, in-freaking-possible.
So your points….. you don’t have any.
Try getting the very basics correct before pontificating about how brilliant you all are.
DH
Oct 26, 2009 - 4:07 pm 60. Marie Claude:Escape,
Also, I could see that the Spanish are “worried” about their economical situation, they look more “sad” comparing to last year at the same period.
Some said that they didn’t have any vacation, but were working instead of.
Many properties and agencies are for sale, idem for restaurants and bars
even the organisators of the agility contest had less means and concurrents, they were making some restrictions upon the spendings
Oct 26, 2009 - 4:16 pm 61. EscapeVelocity:Thanks Marie,
I found this particularly interesting.
“you could see that the flights towards or coming from Latin America are considerated as inner flights, then no custom checkings”
I also know that Latin American countries have favored immigration status to Spain.
Seems like a very sane policy, since the cultures and language are so similar. I wish all of Europe and AngloSphere countries would get back to this type of sanity.
Oct 26, 2009 - 4:58 pm 62. Marie Claude:Escape
Since Maastricht agreement european immigration is favored, and no maghrebin’s or african’s. but illigal immigration is difficult to avoid, not all the european countries have the same means and or the same volition to fight it : Greecs would let Afghani, Pakistani or Turks cross their country to get to Germany, to France, to UK, or to Benelux… while Italians would let Lybians… Spain, Marrocans, Africans through. But not anymore since there is a global politic about immigration, and that the EU gives them more means to help them to survey or to contain the illegals, but Greece is still the weak link
Oct 26, 2009 - 5:33 pm 63. EscapeVelocity:Google “latin american immigration to spain.”
Interesting stuff there.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=zav&q=latin+american+immigration+to+spain&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
Oct 26, 2009 - 6:05 pm 64. Marie Claude:Escape
indeed, interesting !
Oct 27, 2009 - 5:43 am 65. urbanleftbehind:On the whole “Latin American Immigration to Spain” thing:
I have already heard of the Latin Kings establishing themselves in Spa(i)nish cities – the kicker is that they are recognized as an above-board non-profit in Spain (even in the US the Kings now come across as some sort of geriatric Elks Club compared to the Surenos and MS-13).
Greeks are dumb – they should act as the Mexicans do toward the OTMs from further south- and save the best slots for themselves.
Oct 27, 2009 - 7:46 am 66. Frank:Another day, another bunch of goofs (Sarrazin, his attackers, and Rosenthal) confusing the hostility inherent in Islam and creeping Islamization with ‘racial’ and ‘ethnic’ red herring crap.
Oct 27, 2009 - 8:19 am 67. Wallenrod:There is nothing like “the murky territory of ’socio-biology’ or even eugenics” in Sarrazin’s argument. Sarrazin talks about culture, and certain consequences of culture. If Mr Rosenthal has a mind to condemn Sarrazin for this, he should condemn certain passages of David S. Landes’ bestseller “The Wealth and Poverty of Nations” as well.
In general, I agree with “herzog” (#32) and “RightwingHippyChick” (#36). Mr Rosenthal should read more of Necla Kelek, Seyran Ates, and Serap Cileli to get a more profound picture of turkish life in Germany. As it seems to me, Mr Rosenthal’s knowledge in these areas depends heavily on the book “Ganz unten” by G. Wallraff, a left-wing journalist. Wallraff did never deny his collaboration with Hermann L. Gremliza, the editor of a GDR-sponsored political magazin in Western Germany… It might be unwise to rely on suchlike ‘evidence’.
As there is no “instant German” – a once-and-for-ever racist, blood-thirsty, humourless warmonger fond of Sauerkraut and Wagner -, Mr Rosenthal should allow contemporary Germans to discuss what might be in their national interest (I use that term like Margaret Thatcher, from whom I borrowed it). Indeed, it is the drama of contemporary Germany that practically every attempt to do so is under taboo.
Oct 27, 2009 - 11:30 am 68. gus:Hey wallenrod, is that how it feels, that germans can’t even talk freely about their best interests? I wonder why that is. Could it have something to do with the fact that ever since germany became a nation it started war after war after war, culminating in the most despicable society known to humankind?
Oct 27, 2009 - 10:50 pm 69. Wallenrod:For the last sixty-four years germany has been an occupied nation, and strangely enough, the last sixty-four years have been the only time germany hasn’t caused problems for the world. Instead of lamenting that germans can’t talk freely enough about their national interests, germans should consider themselves lucky that the world has been so forgiving.
Gus,
“for the last sixty-four years germany has been an occupied nation, and… the last sixty-four years have been the only time germany hasn’t caused problems for the world”? This is nonsense. Read some history.
Oct 28, 2009 - 2:34 am