Pajamas Media

17 Comments

1. scooby:

Great article. But you must take it to the highest level you can and beat it in to the the Libs who voted the TOTUS in.

Jul 8, 2009 - 4:22 am 2. Steve:

Let’s hope that this does gain momentum and more and more young children are exposed to real education and not indoctrination to the liberal democratic party. All such schools should teach real history and not some politically correct version, they should also produce students that can actually think for themselves and logically come to a conclusion.

No bisexual gay or trans gender indoctrination that it is alright as long as it makes you feel good. No passing from one grade to the next to let children learn that if they fail then they need to try harder or find a tutor to help them out.

Public education is a failure because it is not education but rather just indoctrination into politically correct thinking and a money sucking machine that benefits the teachers union.

Jul 8, 2009 - 5:11 am 3. John Peterson:

I hope voucher supporters are successful getting more of the conservative states to enact statewide programs. Advantage “blue” states.

Besides adding a profit motive to scarce taxpayer resources, voucher schools are already gaming the system, while private schools are already asking for more money to support and expand existing schools. These rising costs will soon meet or exceed the per student prices conservatives complain about now, and voucher advocates will eventually pay more, losing the current money saving advantage.

Here’s two examples: http://democurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2009/07/if-you-thought-public-schools-wasted.html

http://democurmudgeon.blogspot.com/2009/06/money-savings-charter-schools-need-more.html

The above article here talks only of political wins, not actual program accountability or student improvement that can be quantified. It seems voucher advocates want to ignore the fact that private schools don’t have to listen to or work with voucher parents. They can pretend like they are, just like the customer service department at Wal-Mart, but that hardly passes as real concern.

My hope is the states taking this plunge will reap the costs and student failure rates we’re seeing now in study after study. It may sacrifice a few million children’s educational opportunities, but it would be better for few states to fail than the entire country. Keep up the down the “rabbit hole thinking” for purely ideological reasons. Voucher backer Mitch Daniels, who defended the Bush tax cuts by saying (paraphrasing)”Don’t worry, we have surpluses as far as the eyes can see,” is as right about vouchers as he was about federal tax cuts.

This proves once again that actual policy results take a back seat to the Republicans obsession with winning political battles.

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:44 am 4. Lisa:

I’m a public school teacher. I believe in the public schools and the good they do but I know public schools are not a good fit for every child. However, vouchers are not the solution.

Any private school in my area costs far more than the state’s per pupil allotment (the amount of money the state gives for each student enrolled in a district). The legislature will not be willing to give more to private schools in a voucher than the public schools. Furthermore, if the private schools take state funds, then they aren’t truly private are they? That means that religious education becomes problematic.

Furthermore, if a school takes vouchers, it will not be able to turn down special education students who apply. Here’s the dirty little secret of special education. Any student with an IEP cannot be suspended for more than a total of 10 days in a school year if his or her disability can be blamed for the behavior. There are two main reasons parents go to private schools: better academics and stronger discipline. Discipline will diminish in the private schools.

Of course there is no guarantee that private school’s won’t simply raises their tuition. This will however result in an increase in taxes or loss of services elsewhere as the number of students funded by the state will be increased.

Is this really what you want?

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:54 am 5. Lisa:

Steve,

You are right about social promotion, it is a problem. Teachers can only recommend retention, not enforce it. Parents have the right to ‘place’ their child in the next grade. I have only ever seen one parent hold back a middle school child; believe me there were many others who needed it.

North Carolina has established gateways. Students must pass their End Of Grade tests for 3rd, 5th and 8th grade or they cannot go to the next grade. They have multiple chances to retake the exam and opportunities for remediation but if the don’t pass, they don’t go on.

Jul 8, 2009 - 8:59 am 6. Tristan Yates:

This is a great issue and Friedman Foundation gets a lot of credit for continuing to work it. Americans want more choices, not less, in their education, health care, transportation, and just about every other aspect of their lives. By the way, even with school choice, there are Supreme Court rulings against public funding of religious schools that need to be struck down, otherwise they prevent you from using your voucher (paid for with your tax dollars) and taking it to a Catholic school or some other institution that meets your standards and values.

Jul 8, 2009 - 12:00 pm 7. Mike G:

I doubt that Lisa’s statement that “private school costs more than the state’s per pupil allotment” applies in most places. In any case, you need to compare the private option with the total taxpayer cost per pupil, not just what is given to the local school. I have seen estimates as high as $28,000 per pupil in the LA School district. Let’s send them all to Harvard instead – I’ll bet there they would have a lower dropout rate than the current 50%.

Secondly, vouchers are in essence given to needy children so they can shop for the schools they prefer. The private schools only need to convince the prospective pupil and his/her parents and are therefore not beholden to the local government in any way for these payments. The fact that private schools must fall in line with government requirements and regulations is yet another problem that should be separated from the voucher idea.

Another comment by Mr. Peterson about private schools potentially “gaming ” the system is laughable to us in California where the teachers unions have achieved the ultimate in gaming by arranging for 60-90% of final pay level and free high-end health benefits for life for all members retiring as early as age 55. We didn’t need to give those preferences to get good teachers over the past 20-30 years. It was quid pro quo between politicians (mostly Democrats) and the union that would constitute fraud in any activity other than government. The incredible weight of those costs has landed firmly on the backs of our children going forward. It’s hard to imagine, but due to increases in life expectancy, it is going to get worse.

Jul 8, 2009 - 2:59 pm 8. Lisa:

Mike,

Vouchers will not, can not be more than the per pupil allotment. For my district it was 9,600 last year. Tuition at my son’s private school is several thousand more than that. Other private schools in the area are more. Maybe the Catholic schools are less, I wouldn’t know.

I don’t see how you can separate state funds from public education law for one group of schools. Even the charter schools can’t do that. They are still obligated to follow every rule I described above.

Also, even if the states puts vouchers out there, Federal money for Title 1 will not go with it. That deals with the low income students. It provides free and reduced lunch, remedial reading programs and other resources for disadvantaged kids. This money won’t follow the voucher so the private schools will be working with less resources than the public schools.

Honestly, I don’t know why a successful private school would sign up for that. They have EVERY incentive to simply raise tuition by the voucher amount; their kids can still pay the difference and will get the voucher but they can still keep out the disadvantaged and the difficult. This way they can buy more fancy stuff for their students and become more prestigious. Private schools expect that their student’s families to make donations and to volunteer. Why would they weaken that culture?

This elasticity of demand was seen in college tuition and the increase in financial aid in the 90’s. Students had more financial aid available so they were less sensitive to increases in tuition. Now it is common to see yearly tuition increases of 5% at the University in my home town because the financial aid keeps getting raised to meet the cost, not because the cost of education has actually gone up.

Jul 8, 2009 - 6:41 pm 9. Catherine:

Georgia’s tax credit program strikes me as a terrible example for school choice proponents to champion. It does three things that will make it hard to get folks whose main dog in the school choice fight is the achievement gap to come on board.
First, it includes no accountability for student achievement. None. The kids aren’t tested or checked on academically in any way.
Second, the scholarship organizations are explicitly religious. Their mission statements include their commitment to helping [insert religion, there's a scholarship organization for several] families find schools. It’s ludicrous to think those organizations are seeking and serving all comers.
Third, it’s not restricted to “switchers,” so in many cases it is using tax payer money to fund students already in private schools, making it impossible for it to provide the additional market pressure we hope school choice would bring upon public schools to improve them.

Florida’s CTC program would be a much better model…if it worked to significantly raise student achievement. One of the problems, I think, is that the bar for “effective” has been raised among the achievement gap-focused reform community. Tiny, slow gains like the ones in DC aren’t enough for us. We’ve been dazzled by KIPP and GreenDot like numbers, and knowing what is possible makes it hard to accept less.

Jul 9, 2009 - 6:24 am 10. WJ:

To #8 Lisa:
That is one very expensive private school your son goes to.
However, wouldn’t it be great if your CHOICE of school for your son received the $9600 amount of money the local public school receives? Then your net tuition costs would only be around $2000 vs your self reported $11,600.

In my local area of Raleigh Durham, my local school district gets about $9,000 for each one of my 3 kids. There are private schools in the area that are more expensive, and (guess what) there are quite a few that are less than $9000 per year.

Only if I had a CHOICE as a parent on where the school tax money was spent!

Jul 9, 2009 - 7:32 am 11. Tristan Yates:

Many families will probably spend a little more than their vouchers, especially if its tax deductible, that’s a reasonable choice to make. What will be fascinating to see is how the education industry evolves, what specializations are created, and what new “features” that we would never even think of today become standard, as that’s usually how private industry competes – on the extras. It will be fun to see the innovation, as thats what Americans still do better than anyone else. Hopefully my daughter will go to “Arrakis Academy”, a sci-fi themed school with its own robotics lab, semiconductor design studio, and imax planetarium.

Jul 9, 2009 - 8:47 am 12. Lisa:

WJ..

I don’t believe that if we offered vouchers tuition would stay at its current price. Private schools have every incentive to remain exclusive and since parents have already demonstrated that they can and will pay $12,000+ (there are some schools here that cost $17,000) out of pocket, they have every reason to raise tuition by as much as the voucher is worth. So if schools would receive that $9,600 in a voucher, they will raise their tuition from $12,000 up to $21,600.

I lived and taught in the Triangle for several years and I hate to tell you this but you did choose were your tax dollars go. Much of school funding is based upon property taxes, in selecting a home, you selected which school to direct those taxes to. By enrolling your child, you stipulated that the school receive a per pupil allotment on your behalf. Of course, I don’t think most families pay $27,000 dollars in state taxes each year so the argument that you want to direct YOUR tax dollars to the school of your choice seems silly to me.

Jul 9, 2009 - 6:24 pm 13. Lisa:

Oh and Raleigh has school choice!

Jul 9, 2009 - 6:25 pm 14. seven:

I am so glad my children didn’t take math from Lisa. She mentioned “state” expenditures. For some reason she left out federal and local school district money. Most school districts are far more top heavy and have huge layers of payroll abocve the classroom level.
No Lisa, they will not take tuition and keep the voucher over and above tuition. I attended private H.school and of course it also had donations from churches that government schools do not have.
Now the ultimate killer Lisa is graduation rates. Government schools do a horrible job of graduation rates. Too bad it is partially the teachers fault. If we paid teachers a commision based on graduation rates, it would clean up the mess a little.
Lisa your math is defective. Yes We pay more that what it costs in taxes during our childs education. Every grocery bag has property tax in the price. Every automobile we register has taxes in it. from property taxes in most areas to sales taxes. The car dealer pays property taxes for schools. I am still paying property taxes after my children are in college.
Your union arithmetic is what our CPA firm calls fraudulent in claim.
As un educated as union teachers are, Lisa, My daughter recieved 30,000 dollars plus about that same amount in expense account to get a top education in a top engineering school. Her sports accomplishments where at the all american level her final year. The “system” had over 75,000 dollars in her, She is actually paying for all her own scholarships by reason of taxes. Her employment offers are very high and she will be starting out in her new house, paying lots of property taxes and state income taxes on top of federal. She has recieved 8,000 dollars from Barry Hussein for first time buyer and 3,500 from the same for a new heat pump system. Her degree is in December. She will make 2-3 times as much as a school teacher every year. She will pay in taxes a school worker salary every year.
We are cranking out teachers that are union sock puppets.

Jul 10, 2009 - 7:39 am 15. Lisa:

Seve,

I’m so glad my children won’t take logic from you.

“I am so glad my children didn’t take math from Lisa. She mentioned “state” expenditures. For some reason she left out federal and local school district money. ”
I did discuss Federal money. However, that is based upon need and wiil not, can not be attached to vouchers. Nor is it likely that local districts will attach their local funds to vouchers though at least one state requires local districts to so for charters.

“Most school districts are far more top heavy and have huge layers of payroll abocve the classroom level.”
Really? How many have you worked at? Yes, in addition to teachers we have counselors, speech therapists, occupational and physical therapists, psychologists, teacher aides, secretaries, cafeteria workers,janitors, principals, people to take care of payroll, finance, and human resources, groundskeepers, maintenance, and licensed administrators to keep up with state requirements. Whom do you suggest we do without? Who will do it at private schools if they suddenly have to meet state rules?

“No Lisa, they will not take tuition and keep the voucher over and above tuition. I attended private H.school and of course it also had donations from churches that government schools do not have.”
And you know this how? Obviously, you don’t. There are private schools in my area who charge as much as a university, why wouldn’t they raise their rates?

“Now the ultimate killer Lisa is graduation rates. Government schools do a horrible job of graduation rates. Too bad it is partially the teachers fault. If we paid teachers a commision based on graduation rates, it would clean up the mess a little.”
I see. My school district will do fine, our graduation rate is in the 90s.
Of course the parents have no responsibility this at all. Sheesh. I have kids who are read to, have an organized family life, are expected to do their homework and get good grades and guess what, they do. On the other hand I have kids who don’t own a book, whose parents are gone much of the time or missing, who cuss at their child’s teacher and ignore discipline problems. Not a surprise when they fall further and further behind or drop out,

“Lisa your math is defective. Yes We pay more that what it costs in taxes during our childs education. Every grocery bag has property tax in the price. Every automobile we register has taxes in it. from property taxes in most areas to sales taxes. The car dealer pays property taxes for schools. I am still paying property taxes after my children are in college.
Your union arithmetic is what our CPA firm calls fraudulent in claim.”
I see, so you seriously believe that the only service you receive from the state is public education. No police or fire service, no prisons, no parks, no roads, no libraries, no medical services, no public colleges, no state guard, etc.

“As un educated as union teachers are, Lisa, My daughter recieved 30,000 dollars plus about that same amount in expense account to get a top education in a top engineering school. Her sports accomplishments where at the all american level her final year. The “system” had over 75,000 dollars in her, She is actually paying for all her own scholarships by reason of taxes.”
How? Your twenty something daughter has paid $75,000 in taxes plus 18 years of schooling already?

“Her employment offers are very high and she will be starting out in her new house, paying lots of property taxes and state income taxes on top of federal. She has recieved 8,000 dollars from Barry Hussein for first time buyer and 3,500 from the same for a new heat pump system. Her degree is in December. She will make 2-3 times as much as a school teacher every year. She will pay in taxes a school worker salary every year.”
Wow. Given that the average engineer makes $60,000 starting out so she might pay, $20,000 in taxes in one year (and that really is pushing it). So you think a school worker should earn $10,000 a year???? Huh.

Oh and you should thank a teacher for your daughter getting so far… actually, you probably need to thank close to a hundred teachers.

Jul 10, 2009 - 11:22 am 16. francello mccoy:

To whom it may concern,

I Francello McCoy was a parent that was fighting for school choice here in Missouri, because the school district in my area lost their accreditation.

The local newspaper read my story and interviewed my two daughters. Once the article was released the next day we received a call from a private school expressing their interest of allowing my daughters to enroll in their school.

During my daughter first year she did well academically and played basketball. Please review, pull up the footage on youtube.com type in: “The great Netta.”

The school wrote me a letter about 3 weeks ago and said that they are withdrawing my daughter Fernetta out of the school because of academic and conduct.

In March of 2008, Fernetta had a head concussion that caused her to sit out a whole year from playing basketball. Her dreams went down the drain because of a foul accident of playing at a basketball tournament in Branson Missouri with her league outside the district of four years of dedication.

My daughter Fernetta became depress and had to orally take medication to sleep. She’s had to take physical therapy, an MRI cat scan, and weekly doctors visits due to her injuries.

Since then we have had to seek assistance from doctors and counselor, which all have helped Fernetta regain her coordination back, which appears to me to be too late according to Lutheran Administrators.

It is of my opinion that we need the school support in helping us to revitalize our daughter Fernetta’s hope to be restored in completing her education in an effort to fulfill her career goals.

We believe everyone deserves a second chance, hopefully Fernetta can.

I requested a meeting after receiving the bad news to met with the Principal of the school. In my opinion the meeting did not go to well, because the principal already made up in his mind that he was not going to accept her back in school .

My daughter wrote a letter and read it, which touch the principal heart. The principal said he will give the information to the Board and review it and give me call.

I waited three weeks for a decision only to have them reconsider to let her come back for the second semester, contingent on her obtaining a 3.0 GPA.

In the mean time we have enrolled her in a Tech school that is the only available school in my district or the non-accredited school.

I would like to rely on your wisdom and or advice as of what is my next step to advocate for my daughter education? I am writing a letter to request a meeting with the Board to obtain a copy of their minutes from the meeting of there final decision pertaining to my daughter.

Please contact me via phone at or feel free to send me an email frncllmccoy@yahoo.com.

In closing, I’d like to thank you for taking the time to listen from a parent who is crying out for someone to listen.

Respectfully yours,
Mrs. McCoy

Aug 21, 2009 - 4:58 pm 17. francello mccoy:

The administration apparently found her to be a liability and decided that the best option was to expel her.What are the proper procedure to getting your child back in school after being expelled,cause by post concussive syndrome that compelled her grades to decline?
I am highly disappointed at how poorly this situation was handled, and I can only hope that future “improvements” in aiding our troubled students will include communication, compassion and hopefully a little bit of tact.

Aug 21, 2009 - 5:05 pm

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