Spain Changes Tack on Universal Jurisdiction
Freewheeling Spanish judges are creating big diplomatic headaches for their government — and the parliament is fighting back.
The Spanish parliament has approved a resolution urging Socialist Prime Minister José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero to limit the power of judges to prosecute people for atrocities and human rights crimes committed abroad under the concept of universal jurisdiction. Spanish law currently enables investigators to probe alleged human rights crimes regardless of where they are committed or where the defendants live. The nonbinding proposal calls on the government to reform the law, which is the most far-reaching in Europe, so that judges may only probe such cases if they involve Spanish victims or if the alleged offenders are found to be in Spain.
Spanish judges have gained a reputation for activism in recent years by using the principle of universal jurisdiction to pursue cases against suspected human rights violators overseas, most famously the former Chilean dictator General Augusto Pinochet. Judges at the Spanish National Court (Audiencia Nacional) are currently pursuing more than a dozen international investigations into suspected cases of torture, genocide, and crimes against humanity in places as far-flung as Tibet and Rwanda. But many of these cases have little or no connection with Spain and critics say the judges are interpreting the concept of universal jurisdiction too loosely.
Calls to reign in the judges increased when Spanish magistrates recently announced probes involving Israel and the United States. In January, Spanish National Court Judge Fernando Andreu said he would investigate seven current or former Israeli officials over an air attack in Gaza that killed a top Hamas militant in 2002 but also 14 other people. In March, Baltasar Garzón, Spain’s most high-profile judge, invoked the principle of universal jurisdiction when he sought to investigate six former Bush administration officials for giving legal cover to torture at the American prison at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. And in May, another Spanish high-court judge, Santiago Pedraz, said he would charge three U.S. soldiers with crimes against humanity for the April 2003 deaths of a Spanish television cameraman and a Ukrainian journalist. The men were killed when a U.S. tank crew shelled their Baghdad hotel.
The problem of freewheeling judges recently came to a head after Andreu rejected requests by Spanish prosecutors to suspend his inquiry on the grounds that Israel was already investigating the attack. A few days later, Pedraz said he would continue to pursue his case even though a National Court panel, as well as a U.S. Army investigation, recommended that no action be taken against the soldiers. Meanwhile, Attorney General Cándido Conde-Pumpido asked Garzón to shelve his case against the Americans and warned of the risks of turning the Spanish justice system into a “plaything” for politically motivated prosecutions. Instead of heeding that advice, Garzón opened yet another investigation that seeks information on everyone who authorized and carried out the alleged torture of four inmates at Guantánamo.
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Soeren Kern is Senior Analyst for Transatlantic Relations at the Madrid-based Grupo de Estudios Estratégicos / Strategic Studies Group.
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50 Comments
1. JFM:Garzon, the main activist jusdge is both a former (ooficiallu) high ranking socialist anad a media whore who ha
May 29, 2009 - 2:23 am 2. progressoverpeace:I’d like to see a few countries go after every single person who works for the Spanish government. The arrogance of such a third-rate country is offensive. It reminds me of The Precedent, here. Stupid, yet arrogant. Is this a global disease? SOmeone had better find a cure for it, soon, because it is fatal to civilization.
May 29, 2009 - 2:56 am 3. RickB308:Delusions of grandeur: re; The spanish Inquisition.
May 29, 2009 - 4:10 am 4. StillBill:I guess I’ll have to revisit this topic once again. Spain is irrelevant. Who cares what happens in Spain? Their elected leader is a coward. Aside from Spanish women who are very beautiful and very courageous, Spain is a country of weak-kneed Socialists who couldn’t fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Unfortunately, my country under Kenyan-born Bambi Obama is being transformed into a weak-kneed Socialist nation also. Quit apologizing Bambi! I’m proud to be an American, even if you’re not. And you ARE NOT a natural born American citizen unless Kenya has suddenly been declared the 51st State in the Union.
May 29, 2009 - 4:32 am 5. Lynn B.:Certainly Spain is painting itself into a corner. Everyone either ignores the idiots or laughs at them. Spain will become a pariah country and isolated. Boye`should be tried for crimes against humanity himself.
May 29, 2009 - 4:46 am 6. Marie Claude:p’tain, JFM on that thread ! what a surprise !
May 29, 2009 - 4:48 am 7. Marie Claude:http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/luz+casals/video/xb7ds_luz-casal-negra-sombra_music
ESPANA mue bien !
May 29, 2009 - 5:31 am 8. njcommuter:The person who organized all of this was in jail for terrorism? He was not given, or did not serve, a life sentence? And was allowed to become a lawyer?
Civilization needs a reality check.
May 29, 2009 - 7:29 am 9. JFM:Garzon, the main activist jusdge is both a former (ooficially) high ranking socialist anad a media whore who has time and agina chosen to prosecute cases out of his attributions while through his neglect major criminals and terrorists were released. He is also suspoected from a tip to ETA terrorists allowing them to esacpe a police operation.
He has also been prone to prosecute according to the interests of the sociualist party (eg just before elections indictment of opposition party members who were quickly found void of any substance)
He has exhibitedf a tendency to ignore both the law and injunctions of the court.
Finally, he has played a major role in the stonewalling of the official (ie socialist) version about the Madrid bombings whose investigation is under major suspicions.
Latetely it seems that his fortunes seem to be going down: after he he dedcided to investigate war crimes in Spanish Civil War, more exactly the nationalist war crimes and since these were lapsed he requalified them as “crimes against humankind”. After that he required Franco’s death certificate. At this point he was laughed out of court. Two days ago, Spain’s Supreme Court accepted his indictment for prevarication, a major setback against him as until now Spanish judges have ever closed ranks.
May 29, 2009 - 8:38 am 10. Jettboy:This doesn’t mention the t fact that such prosecution of foreigners have been, and I don’t doubt can still be, considered an act of war by other countries. Spain has been lucky they have acted more like bullies to countries with more pressing concerns. One of these days a case will be more than ignored.
May 29, 2009 - 9:02 am 11. Typos_R_us:“Stupid, yet arrogant. Is this a global disease?”
Yes, it is called socialism.
May 29, 2009 - 11:27 am 12. seven:The old saw that the law does not go where enforcement cannot reach is a literal fact.
Law without limits is not law. Except maybe the law of the jungle, which is no different then the laws of Kings. In other words, Tyranny.
Every time you get a warm and fuzzy feeling toward Europeans, remember why our ancestors left and theirs didn’t.
Americans that want to be more European have never lived there.
They need to spend a few years in Europe, then if they still think America should be more European, stay there. Trade citizenship with a European that wants Europe to be more like America.
It is so simple. If they are the judge of the Universe now, that means they have a dirty mess under their own noses and they don’t want to deal with it.
Of course they have judges which can’t file a case here and they never thought of that.
May 29, 2009 - 12:28 pm 13. Alfredo:Garzon is literally the most despicable judge in my country.
He is absolutely ridiculous.
Stillbill: I remind you that more than half the country voted for the conservatives but we have a stupid election law called “Ley D’Hondt” which is of French origin and allows the minority socialists to form coalitions with the separatists. I don’t think the Spanish people are, as a whole, socialistic: Actually, I see more socialism now in your country than in mine.
And at least we don’t have (so far) a foreign president.
May 29, 2009 - 12:48 pm 14. glenn:I used to drink Spanish wine.
May 29, 2009 - 2:08 pm 15. Marie Claude:Ley D’Hondt, proportional representation (BTW Victor D’Hondt was Belgian), the funny thing, this system refers to Jefferson’s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%27Hondt_method
May 29, 2009 - 3:26 pm 16. Morton Doodslag:With the benefit of billions in looted EU wealth redistribution funds, arrogant Spain deluded herself and the world into thinking she was relevant and important. But looted wealth cannot conceal the stench of failure, backwardness, treachery, and fascist hard left radicalism forever. The cancer of radical leftist ideology continues to unspool before our eyes as it robs that country of a future.
May 29, 2009 - 4:31 pm 17. Tri Geek:Hey, Spain has produced some of the best professional cyclist the world has ever seen. Especially the hill climbers. These guys are tough as nails. On the other hand, I can’t speak for the rest of Spain, but they sure went down easy after the train bombings, and their judges seems to be an absolute joke.
May 29, 2009 - 7:28 pm 18. Mike Reynolds:Ah, I see. Umm, when does Espanya indict Ahmadinanutjob for advocating genocide?
May 29, 2009 - 8:22 pm 19. Caestal:“Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”
May 30, 2009 - 3:36 am 20. Marie Claude:Spain produces some fine fruit and wine. Many Spaniards are nice people. I guess every vineyard has its worms, though…
wanna the Valencia Paella recept ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V7IHvD7rKU
May 30, 2009 - 4:58 am 21. MiamaMan:13. Alfredo:
[Garzon is literally the most despicable judge in my country.
He is absolutely ridiculous.]
Thanks, what a joke this Garzon is. He selectively picks up his fight. Right, why not indite Amadiwhatever. What about indicting Fidel Castro, a dirty murderer? Oh no, Fidel is a hero in Spain for many people. There you see many cars with Che Guevara bumper stickers.
As for President Mr. Shoemaker (Zapatero), he is a joke too, in my humble opinion. He is there only because Al Qaeda, Rajoy was posed to win in all polls, but the Jihadis masterfully scared the wits out of the Spaniards, and Aznar also made a mistake trying to blame ETA right away. Mr. Shoemaker appointed a pregnant, pacifist, lady, Ms. Chacon as Defense Minister, this surely is good for the morale of the soldiers.
But it is true, not unlike the US, Spain electorate is almost divided in half, for the socialists and the PP. May be Aznar will return from retirement.
Yes, I am a Franco man. The brother of my grand father, from Bande, Ourense, was killed in the Battle of Teruel, of course, as a good Galician fighting for Franco and against the communists.
May 30, 2009 - 5:09 am 22. JFM:I like Millan Astray cry: Viva la Muerte! We have to unleach the Falange again and get them commies in line.
Could anyone read the article? Thae article is about both the Spanish government and the legislature (aka the elected people) trying to reign in a bunch of unelected two bit judges (not real judges but judges of instruction). Spain does not deserve blame or prise (the later was just to cover al b asers) for the action of hlaf a dozen leftist cracknuts, media whores or, like Andreu, nazis hiding behind the poooooooor Palestinaians.
Context: Spanish judges, public prosecutors and judges of instruction are neither elected nor appointed by elected people: they just pass an exam graded by ‘unelected) senior judges.
May 30, 2009 - 7:03 am 23. Libertyship46:The Spanish people are not only worthless NATO allies, but they are also cowards. You notice that they like to hand out these “criminal” complaints against democracies like Israel or the United States, but they never, ever, raise any protests against truly horrific countries like Cuba, Libya, Iran, or North Korea. What gutless, spineless, worthless trash the Spaniards are. At least if you’re going to do stupid things like make worthless criminal accusations, be consistent about it. Well, I guess in a way they are consistent. They only like attacking democracies and have no interest communist regimes or dictatorships. This is just another reason why NATO is such a waste of time. Spain has been almost no help in Afghanistan and as a NATO “Ally” they have been worthless. This is equally strange considering the fact that al Qaeda actually attacked Spain and killed hundreds of their citizens. So you’d think Spain would want to attack any Muslim extremists that pose a threat to their nation. But these bums or so lazy and so cowardly that they don’t think it’s worth the bother or the effort, even though hundreds of their own people were killed by these madmen. Spain is the primary reason why NATO has passed its time and usefullness. There is no Warsaw Pact or Soviet Union anymore and there is no major threat in Europe these days that can’t be handled by the Europeans (or at least should be handled by the Europeans). And with “friends” like Spain, who needs enemies?
May 30, 2009 - 8:11 am 24. Marie Claude:about the decision to anihilate Carzon’s investigations
http://tinyurl.com/mtrkf3
about the spanish “conservatives”
http://tinyurl.com/lum8nc
about spanish anti-terrorism action
http://tinyurl.com/n56tnu
Well Libertyship, you can see Spanish are rational people, and they are far from being like in your description.
Leave them alone with Nato, each Nato country has the right to participate into missions or not. Spain’s decision is conformed, it’s also an economical decision, with 20% of unemployment, you have no more choice.
Spanish need that money spent in abroad expedition to be allocated to survey their shores and anti-terrorism brigades.
an anecdote, two years ago for christmas vacations we spent the night with our camping-car on a beach in north of Alicante at VillaJoyosa. when we awaked in the morning we were astonished that there were many small kaki tents around. I said to my hub’, “bizarre there are fishermen that have passed the night there too”, a few minuts later some military chief came over with a characterised army car, then the hidden guis appeared, all militaries ! d’ya know what ? they surveyed the sea, in case of “illegals” or drug dealers would land. We ever haven’t been so well guarded !
May 30, 2009 - 11:19 am 25. JFM:Madie Claude, slandering the Spanirds will not erase the collaborationist past of the French, make Napopleon succed or unpaint the “Tres de Mayo” and displaying your igniorance, credulity and bigotry sending us reference of obscure sites written by a two bit national communist does not contribute to constructive didcussion.
So please stay away from Spain, you know nothing about it and, at best, you are trying to apply French mental patterns to a different situation: spanish socialists are not French socialists who happen to speak Spanish: there is a strong totalitarian and nihilist streak not present in French PS (add to it massive corruption), Largo Caballero was not Blum, the Spanish Second Republic was not France’s Third and Spain’s Frente Popular in 1936 was neither the legitimate winner of the elections nor ready to peacefully relinquish power like Blum did.
Now, please, stay away from discussions involving Spain: you aren’t qualified and you will end making me say not so nice things about France, something I am not particularly fond of.
May 30, 2009 - 2:49 pm 26. MiamaMan:Allez, Madame Marie Claude, vous Maquis femme.
Les Espagnols sont tous fous. Je sais mieux que vous. En outre, la cuisine espagnole est terrible, n’est pas la cuisine, mais l’alimentation.
Toute l’Espagnol est aussi rationnel que Don Quijote. La seule bonne chose de l’Espagne a été récemment Commissaire Juve, toujours en essayant d’attraper Fantomas, ne fut un espagnol réfugié en France.
May 30, 2009 - 3:17 pm 27. Typos_R_us:Why is everybody dumping on Spain? Spain is a nice place with mostly good people. In Spain their lying, sleezy, wacko, scumbag crooks become judges. In America they become Congresspersons. That is about the only difference beside the Spanish having small cars. That is understandable, since America has national parks about 1/2 the size of Spain, so the Spanish don’t need large cars.
May 30, 2009 - 3:42 pm 28. Marie Claude:JFM, and I thought you might be an educated person, sometimes, umm are you giving us an “aperçu” of your senility tonight ?
slan·der (slndr)
1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person’s reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
Where did I do that ? BUT you’re on me and my compatriots !
“not erase the collaborationist past of the French”
“Tres de Mayo”, how comes ? who are you to give me a lesson ? any contry of which you’re recalling yourself haven’t the clean hands !
“obscurs and communist sites” LMAO, you’re a buffoon !
yeah, I know who are the persons that promote this legend, and why they do it ; but, I’m afraid they’ll loose, you are loosing ! not because your purpose isn’t justified, but rather because you adopt perverse discourses and subvertions to promote it, and I shall not be sorry for you, you spread too many lies on us for that !
Besides, in all the occupied countries there were collaborators, and the Frenchs werent’t the most numerous comparatively to the existing populations in these countries at this time
Spain doesn’t belong to you or to anyone, your interpretation of her is only YOURS, I know Spain as much as you do, may-be more, at least I meet the people there, when you only read your fashist papers. I don’t care what party the Spanish are supporting, but may-be I meet to many average of them, and only Franco’s family and alikes get your empathy, sorry, they are nothing without the plebe !
stay away… blah blah… Heil ein Herr General ! LMAO
“you will end making me say not so nice things about France, something I am not particularly fond of.”
oh yes, you never said such things, JFM t’es décevant !
May 30, 2009 - 3:51 pm 29. Libertyship46:To Marie Claude, #24, I’m only answering your comment (something I rarely do) because you’re a prime example, actually and excellent example, why we should leave NATO. Your basic political philosophies are so isolationist and infantile that it just proves my point that Europe really isn’t worth the trouble anymore. You had one link where you bragged that the Spaniards arrested some al Qaeda terrorists in Spain. First off, I certainly hope they arrested them, or else they would have killed a lot of Spaniards! It also proves my point that the Spaniards are only interested in playing defense in the war on terror. If they continue only looking for terrorists on their own soil, eventually some of them will get through, like they did at that Madrid train station. Instead, the United States and some real allies (like Britain, Australia, and Canada), are actually being proactive and taking the fight to al Qaeda and going after them in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where they live and train. Only by going after their bases and their leaders will you end the threat, not by waiting for them to come to your country on their terms to kill your citizens. Also, you’ll notice that the conservative group you mentioned in one of your links also doesn’t seem to want to get involved with anything outside of Spain, so their foreign policy would probably just mirror Zapatero’s, which is fond of doing nothing at all. And as for that crazy judge, I hope he loses his job. He has a wonderful time denouncing democracies, but you don’t hear him saying anything about the madmen who rule Iran or North Korea. What a coward he is. He is great getting tough with democratic governments, but when it comes to denoucing Muslims or dictators, he’s probably afraid of risking his own skin.
You also said, “each Nato country has the right to participate into missions or not.” Well, actually, that’s not true at all. NATO holds a vote on where to apply military force and, if the motion is passed (which it was in Afghanistan), all of the member nations are bound to support it. They don’t get to pick and choose their fights, or at least their not supposed to. Supporting missions like the one in Afghanistan with only words instead of combat troops is worse than being a bad “Ally,” it is being cowardly and it just shows that the Spaniards are incapable of honoring their commitments.
Nope, you just proved how worthless an “ally” Spain is. They are lazy, cowardly, isolationists and the faster we’re out of NATO and force the Europeans to spend more money on their own defense, the better.
May 30, 2009 - 5:03 pm 30. JFM:Marie Claude said
Where did I do that ? (slandering)
About 90% of your production
“not erase the collaborationist past of the French”
Or of your ancestors
“obscurs and communist sites” LMAO, you’re a buffoon
For obscure sites, do you know any well known site who uses tinyurl? For communist sites. Well gaullists sites, Le Penist sites. Sme thing.
What is interesting in Spain’s independence war is that nowhere else did the Naopleonic armies behave like in Spain. Apparently outside of Suchet Napoleonic genarls and soldiers thought of Spaniars as untermenschen.
“Tres de Mayo”. Nice painting isn’t it? First impressionistic painting, several decades before “Impression”.
Spain doesn’t belong to you
But unlike you I know what I speak of.
oh yes, you never said such things, JFM t’es décevant !
I doubt I would have said anything against France without you continuously playing the “mosca cojonera”.
May 31, 2009 - 12:12 am 31. Marie Claude:“The Parties of NATO agreed that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all. Consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defense will assist the Party or Parties being attacked, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.”
http://www.nato.int/docu/basictxt/treaty.htm#Art14
umm, yougoslavia wasn’t a Nato member, and none of the separated state that resulted from the Balkan war are too
“We have to distinguish between the content of the message and its form,” says Nicolas Sartorius, president of the Madrid-based Alternatives Foundation, a foreign-policy think tank. “In terms of content, it would have been inconsistent for the government to keep forces in a country it doesn’t recognize. But in terms of the form in which it was delivered, well, obviously something wasn’t done right.”
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1887304,00.html
“Since then, ethnic divisions between two million Albanians and 120,000 Serbs who remained in the country have deepened, with 14,000 NATO peacekeepers and a 2,000-strong European Union mission overseeing a fragile peace”
…
“The priority for the international community should be to ensure that there is some kind of international human rights mechanism to which minorities in Kosovo can turn,” Mark Lattimer, MRG director, said in an interview
http://tinyurl.com/mnue8j
was the Nato mission there rightful ?
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4j7×4_kosovo-erreur-ou-exemple-23_politics
(I caution Alexandre del Valle)
and to whom benefited Kosovo independance ?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2042817/posts
So, Nato was Soro’s private army to saize gold mines in that aera
http://www.balkanforum.org/thread.php?threadid=3072
and Kouchner helped him, I am not proud of what he made there !
To come back on the purpose, I understand the Spanish motivations for pulling out of this vast cheating mission in Kosovo !
Well, Nato decisions are taken when all the members are fine on their agendas ; veto is possible if one or a few members don’t agree. Though as far as France is concerned, she can choose where to participate or not, it is discussed in parliament (like last autumn for carrying, or not, her participation in Afghanistan), though, this also is where Spain’s decision to pull out Kosovo couldn’t reach the appreciation of the other Nato members, the decision was mainly justified for inner domestic political opportunism by a few members of Zapatero’s government, and wasn’t discussed by the spanish parliament.
… I agree with you, that Nato isn’t justified since the fall of the eastern block in the nineties ; since then, it has mainly served the american policies as a foreign legion (also mostly in countries that aren’t Nato members)
Even Nato in Afghanistan is going to fail, because of the indadequation of the means there, not only becuz of the european lack of motivation, but immuably because no power could managed to subjugate these tribal rebels, even the Russians, that used more arms and troops there, didn’t ; if you want them docile, you have to eliminate all the men, and or bomb the hell until vitrification of the country, but bonjour les dégâts in the world reputation of the US then !
So Nato, as its former organisation was ment for, isn’t justified anymore, BUT the experience, that the EU countries made through it, should incline them to redefine its missions, and eventually to opt for more autonomy from its US leading headquaters. Aso EU countries like France, Germany, UK are, altogether, contribuating to Nato financement more than the US.
May 31, 2009 - 2:53 am 32. Marie Claude:JFM
I doubt I would have said anything against France without you continuously playing the “mosca cojonera”.
Since I read you, you’ve always made it !
and I shall carry on “bullying” you for that
Now, as you’re going back until to Napoleon to make your point, then I can also digg further in history, I don’t want to charge Spain at the moment, as some already do it here, but I would recall you the treatment that the inquisition made on jews and converted marons, and the slaughtering of the Indians in latin America !
about the tiny urls, I made them to avoid long links, so you’re babling about Ado !
you may know more about Spain than me, that doesn’t make you a fair man for so, your orientated opinion doesn’t represent the nowadays spanish psyché, but a nostalgy of the fashist times, that the majority there don’t want to see coming back.
May 31, 2009 - 3:09 am 33. Marie Claude:MiamaMan, le mot pour rire
Yes, spanish cooking isn’t great, in general, but some simple dishes are very good, calamar a la plancha, fresh fishes…
the spanishes as don Quijote, never saw one, but more some fangio ones and or soccer teams, or cyclists, or… they all want to win the 1rst place
May 31, 2009 - 4:48 am 34. MiamaMan:Oui, Madame, vous êtes toujours aussi intelligent!
Mais, le poisson frais en Espagne? Non, s’il vous plaît, de poisson pourri. Rechercher dans les restaurants, les yeux des poissons est creux et de profondeur, au moins deux semaines. D’ailleurs, même le chat fume cigarrettes. C’est pourquoi je dis que les Espagnols sont fous. Aujourd’hui, ils sont tous comme Luis Buñuel, moitié fou, la moitié des communistes.
May 31, 2009 - 6:10 am 35. Marie Claude:MiamaMan, I don’t know the fishs that are 2 weeks in the fridges, I only ate them in harbours, otherwise conejo, pollo, cerdo… and Jamon are OK
umm, ils ne sont pas tous non plus comme Bunuel, c’était seulement du temps de Franco ; aujourd’hui, ils aimeraient bien avoir du travail et pouvoir profiter de ce que les magazins ont à vendre, BTW la clique Carzon et Cie ressemble au scenari de Bunuel, ce sont des gens qui ont une situation de privilégiés, la bourgeoisie, et chacun sait qu’elle a des fantasmes frustrés, ok de don quijote, mais aussi de perversions.
May 31, 2009 - 6:57 am 36. MiamaMan:Ben, j’aime mieux les espagnols d’aujourd’hui !
[la clique Carzon et Cie ressemble au scenari de Bunuel, ce sont des gens qui ont une situation de privilégiés, la bourgeoisie, et chacun sait qu’elle a des fantasmes frustrés, ok de don quijote, mais aussi de perversions.]
Oui, oui, Madame, pour une fois nous sommes d’accord. La perversion a montré dans Buñuel “Belle de Jour” avec Denueve, est toujours attrayant. Il a préféré Michel Piccoli, et a montré l’influence surréaliste de Dali dans ce chef-d’œuvre “Le charme Discret de la Bourgeoisie” avec Fernando Rey. Mais son meilleur film est “Los Olvidados” quand il a vécu au Mexique, il est très pertinent dans le contexte actuel des États-Unis.
Thanks for allowing me to practice my Frog!
May 31, 2009 - 8:59 am 37. Oscar the Grump:Hi Marie Claude
May 31, 2009 - 10:08 pm 38. JFM:I’m glad to see that you are taking care of business.
Marie Claude
Well, we have here a fine example of what I said about the mosca coj..era. Since the subject was about Spain you could have ignored it and gone to your normal activities like counting burka clad women before, go to the beach with your children so they can watch oilers cleaning their tanks, or polish grand pa’s Milice badges. Instead you came here (and is not the first time) to post about something who wasn’t your business.
Now abkout South America it seems you missed the point since it was that Napoleonic Armies kept a minimum of decorum everywhere else except in Spain motivated no doubt by their anti-Spanish racism still present nowadays when some French woman seems to believe she knows better than Spaniards what is good for them and who is Garzon.
PS: Whatever happened centuries ago the perpetrators are long dead and present generations don’t carry their sins.
Jun 1, 2009 - 2:52 am 39. Marie Claude:JFM, tu t’es vu quand t’as bu ?
Jun 1, 2009 - 4:42 am 40. Marie Claude:Oscar I missed you, where were you ?
Jun 1, 2009 - 4:43 am 41. Alfredo:Miamaman: I totally agree with you.
Marieclaude: I am quite pleased and happy that we, the Spaniards, with the help of strong allies with principles like the English, kicked your people, invaders, foreigners, OUT of my country. I happen to live very near the main battle scenes and everytime we have a sunny day in Madrid, I revel and basque in glory when I see the sights filled with old historic bullet holes letting you people know (gavachos) that you were not and are not welcome here in Spain. And yes, we would all like to cooperate more with Europe (provided it has noble goals and not antiamerican rubbish) but we’re going to keep our sovereignty we are, first and foremost, Spaniards, not some satellite state of France.
And as for your isolationist policies, what sort of idiots do you take us for? Perhaps being so totally clueless as to the state of real world affairs (Eg: Europe without American or NATO protection would be eaten alive by radical Islamists) you’d be only too delighted to hand over our power and nations as you did to the NAZIS in the II World War, to a dictator. The fact of the matter is this:
Without US protection, Europe is doomed.
With regard to the so called “slaughtering” of Indians in South America: I trust you are not so dishonest as to realize that those people were only too happy to adopt our ways and basque in the wealth that the Spanish conquest generated. Do you really believe that they were all noble and naked savages without any “sins” just happily and peacefully living there and all of a sudden were corrupted by Spaniards?
What about the Aztek sacrificing of innocent women? For socialists like you, butchery and murder is ok as long as the perpetrators aren’t white.
Ladies & Gentlemen: if we’re looking for justice in History or truth, France is the last place we should look at.
The rights of man did not begin in France: they began with the wonderful Judaeo Christian tradition that binds all of Western civilization together. In France, justice and liberty were buried in the name of equality. No wonder French History is so shameful, with whips and guillotines everywhere. And you have the nerve to come and lecture about the Spanish Inquisition which was actually an Institution that was common across Europe? I don’t know what you’ve been smoking but it isn’t doing you any good.
Jun 1, 2009 - 5:58 am 42. Marie Claude:Alfredo, where are you at the moment ? tell me you’re not an american state department offspring ?
but nonentheless your freedom breathing basis is availabble through Napoleon code
sorry for you, my Alicante friends andAndalucia friends would never follow you over the cliffs that you’re creating for the Spanish population
Jun 1, 2009 - 7:01 am 43. Marie Claude:Spaniards, not some satellite state of France, bof, then why are you purchasing in Carrefour Auchan, Continent… and drive Renault, citroen, Peugeot… come on , you don’t live in a real world !
the rest isn’t woth, as it seems so Dalian…
Jun 1, 2009 - 7:12 am 44. Alfredo:Marie: Who told you I purchase at Carrefour or drive Renault and Citroen? None of the above madam.
Where am I? In the city of Madrid, the city that kicked you back to France where you belong.
And I am a full supporter of NATO and the transatlantic alliance with the United States, NOT with the European continent.
Jun 1, 2009 - 1:13 pm 45. Marie Claude:OK, I found el Cid, stay in your ivory tower, uh, may-be you could start an investigation against us, I’m waiting for that being a success in the medias
Jun 1, 2009 - 1:35 pm 46. Marie Claude:JFM
I find it weird that you quote a painting that is regarded as a republican icone :
“Idéalisation du XIXème siècle et des guerres napoléoniennes => tableau de Goya Los fusillamientos del tres de Mayo (1808) => nouveaux mythes fédérateurs. Cf en 2008 : les commémorations officielles du bicentenaire de ces fusillades ont repris le mythe ; il s’agit d’une image reconstruite par Goya, qui n’a pas participé aux événements. En réalité, la révolte est venue d’une minorité, d’une élite, et elle n’a pas donné lieu immédiatement à une démocratie => mythe d’un peuple en armes.”
and
” de même, la « fête de la race » (qui existe encore en Amérique latine) est une fête nationale depuis 1918. Ce mythe a été réinvesti par l’extrême-droite dans les années 1930, notamment par la Parti de la Phalange en 1933, qui voue un culte à l’empire. Après l’exécution du chef de la Phalange le 20 novembre 1933, Franco récupère les idées phalangistes et les met au service de son idéologie.”
uh, is theren’t any contradiction with that for you ?
Jun 1, 2009 - 3:34 pm 47. Marie Claude:Alfredo,
tell me if Bourbon is a scottish brand ?
Jun 1, 2009 - 3:35 pm 48. MiamaMan:Marie Claude:
Charlotte Corday, stop trying to convince everyone around here. I feel sorry for “tu marido, el pobre”. You don’t even want to answer in “Frog” to me anymore.
In reality the Spaniards whipped Napoleon’s army for the first time in Europe. That’s the example El Caudillo used to keep Hitler in line when they met at Hendaye, the Fuhrer threatened to invade Spain to get to Gibraltar, and Franco reminded him of Napoleon.
The Spaniards have always considered the French rather effeminate (un poco maricones).
They were the greatest collaborationist with Hitler and Nazism, from Petain to Laval, to the police rounding up the Jews in Drancy. On the contrary, “bad guy” Franco saved thousands of Sephardi Jews from Eichmann, and specially Alois Brunner.
Voila!
Jun 1, 2009 - 8:05 pm 49. Marie Claude:Miaman you’re not spanish but cuban, so you’re the new shoe polisher of your former master now ?
the Spaniards didn’t make all what certain Spanish would like us to believe.
The Caudillo was Hitler infeoded’s, he stayed out of the war because he feared the Alliees retaliations, and besides he sent quite a few troops to fight on the eastern front, hoping that Hitler will reward him with one of our maghrebin colonies, as well as this fourbe Mussolini who was lorgning on Tunisia
May-be some say what you wrote, but up to now they can’t live without our assistance, everyting that goes to Spain come from France, I didn’t/don’t see any Spaniard pricing german culture and or the british perfume, only their music found its ways, but in Andalucia, still the flamenco is the everyday standing !
if you read their papers, the population (notice I don’t talk of the Madrilènes, they are not mixing with the rest of the country) complains of the Brits and of the Germans invasion, not of the French (only in Catalunia, which is the proxy sea-side resort for idiot tourists de masse
and you’re an idiot !
Jun 1, 2009 - 10:04 pm 50. MiamaMan:and you’re an idiot!
Merci Madame!
Your Laplacian logic is breathtaking. I am an American. You must go ahead and convince us all, Diderot and D’Alembert-style, in a Pascalian and Descartian erudition, we all bow to that great “Frog” logic. Even Le Roi Bling Bling, President Fantomas Sarkozy, who does not have a drop of French blood in his veins, was infected by that erudition after being born in La France, and now must explain thing in a logical manner, from 1 to 2 to 3.
No regrets, Ma Cherie, I bow to you.
Vous souhaitez me rencontrer, j’ai un gros?
Jun 2, 2009 - 9:28 am