Pajamas Media

116 Comments

1. MIke Reynolds:

What about getting some European court to indict Ahmadinajad for advocating genocide? Just to embarass the Euronazis a bit.

Mar 31, 2009 - 1:03 am 2. JFM:

Don’t worry too much. Time and again the adults in the Spanish judiciary (yes there are many of them) have stopped similar non-sense from judges Garzon and Pedraz (I am not sure but from distant memories they already delivred a setback on this particular case. Unfortunately caste solidarity has prevented the above-mentioned adults to sanction the media whores for their gross professional neglects (leading to the relaease of terrorists nd drug smugglers)and their multiple violations of the law.

Also Andreu, Garzon and Pedraz are not judges in the anglo-saxon definition ie they don’t pronounce sentences or preside trials. They are “jueces de instruccion” (judges of instruction) ie they coordinate investigations on crimes. They deliver orders for arrest and interrogation of suspects but they are _supposed_ to remain neutral and search clues both of innocence and guiltiness.

Mar 31, 2009 - 2:12 am 3. glenn:

“What gives Spain the right to prosecute Israel for fighting Hamas?” A big Muslim minority of which the Spaniards are scared to death. Like the Christians, the Jews won’t kill you, the Muslima will. And maybe just a whiff of real old fashioned European Anti-Semitism. The kind that doesn’t mind a little Genocide as long as the victims are “someone else”

Mar 31, 2009 - 3:08 am 4. davidingeorgia:

“What gives Spain the right to prosecute Israel for fighting Hamas?”

extreme arrogance and narcissism? anti-Semitism? (hating Israel is just the PC version of that) the pretentious Euro attitude of superiority to the rest of the planet? fear that the Muslims will come back to blow up more “heroic” Spaniards on their trains and elsewhere? all of the above? yep…probably a couple I’ve forgotten too.

Mar 31, 2009 - 3:52 am 5. Old Soldier:

A couple of Jewish acts of terrorism on Spanish soil would fix this whole situation. It sure worked great for the radical Muslims.

Mar 31, 2009 - 4:23 am 6. MiamaMan:

Another episode in the sorry saga of the government of Mr. Shoemaker (Zapatero), this queer president and his pregnant, liberal and appeaser Minister of Defense Chacon, have removed whatever virility was left in this people after the Civil War.

He should use his time to indite all them Gypsies in the slums trafficking in drugs, and now the thousand of new Romanian gypsies (Gesindel!), many illegally in Spain, pestering and robbing the tourists.

They can criticize Franco all they want, but Franco saved and protected many Jews, giving the Sephardis from the Balkans, those who were originally from Spain centuries before, their Spanish nationality so that they could escape Eichmann. He never persecuted the Jews, but Spain became a sanctuary for many of them.

Mar 31, 2009 - 4:52 am 7. Steve Bronfman:

If this goes ahead Israel should declare war on Spain, because this is really a declaration of war by Spain upon Israel. The Spanish have a history of being the most anti-Jewish anti-Israeli nation in th EU (which is really saying something). As a Jew who has spent a lot of time in Asia I really think its time for Jews and Israel to say good riddance to Europe (A continent of hatred towards Jews forever) and embrace India, East Asia, North America and Christian Africa.

Mar 31, 2009 - 5:35 am 8. Mike2:

5. Old Soldier:

I agree. It seems like a long time since the Israelis have assassinated enemies on foreign soil. Maybe they should take up that practice again. Nothing like some rank fear of dying to constrict Jew haters.

Mar 31, 2009 - 6:01 am 9. JFM:

A couple of Jewish acts of terrorism on Spanish soil would fix this whole situation. It sure worked great for the radical Muslims.

You should be careful who you blow up however.

redliberal.com is a blog aggregator of pro free-market people and its members are with a single exception pro-Israel.

libertaddigital.com is a web site with close links to Catholic Church’s COPE radio network and is the most read of Spanish digital newspapers. It is staunchily pro-Israel and during last Gaza operation at least 80% of the readers comments were in the vein “Go Israel. Don’t stop until you have cleaned this cesspool to the bottom. Israel is our natural ally and we should support it. Shame on Zapatero”

There are more pro-Israel Spaniards than you believe. Now if you target socialist circles or “students” in sociology or similar crappy disciplines…

Mar 31, 2009 - 6:42 am 10. bill:

Does anyone else see the corollary with Don Quixote? A doddering, delusional old guy trying to relive the glory of his past by taking on proxies. Cervantes was a prophet.

Mar 31, 2009 - 7:13 am 11. B Dubya:

Perhaps Spain might better occupy itself looking into the record of genocide by Spaniards in the Americas, starting in tha last decade of the 15th century and lasting until the end of the 19th.
Naw..never mind..

Mar 31, 2009 - 7:36 am 12. ElvenPhoenix:

Since this is in reality an assault upon a nation’s sovereignty, Israel (and the US, and any other freedom loving country) should pass a law saying that the arrest and/or prosecution of a present or former governmental official for his/her actions as a governmental official is an act of war and will be treated as such.

Iran, Gaza, West Bank, Somalia, etc., aren’t the targets of these types of prosecutions, so their passing of the same law wouldn’t change the current status quo (besides, they WOULD regard the arrest and/or prosecution of their officials as an act of war).

All I’m sayin’…

Mar 31, 2009 - 7:46 am 13. Marie Claude:

MiamaMan, I think your admiration for Franco is blurring you from his real motivations :
“Jews only deserved protection if they were of economic benefit to Spain. Clearly, the regime’s attitude towards Sephardic Jews was not based on humanitarian considerations, but rather on a cost-benefit analysis”

http://wais.stanford.edu/Spain/spain_FrancoWantedWWII(110303).html

Portugal made much more for the Jews than Franco. Though we can recognize that he let them cross Spain.

Franco was a friend to Nazy Germany

http://www.janus.umd.edu/Feb2002/spanish%20civ%20war%20tom/01.html

As far as the Gypsies being the responsible of all the traffics, I didn’t remarck it, but rather illegal immigrants were/are.
My man got robbed of his wallet, money and papers last year from black illegals, while making our purchases in a supermarket.

Also, what is new there, the prostitutes are everywhere now, they weren’t a few years ago. When we took the national road from Alicante to Valencia, I wanted to buy oranges from the field stores, I forgot about it, Girls stand on every path and parking places. You wouldn’t imagine how the road traffic was slow, men were having their lunch vacation time in choosing a wether a blond slavic or a latin partner

Mar 31, 2009 - 8:04 am 14. Joe Bison:

The Serbians did not harm or threaten to harm
any Spanish/EU members before the bombing killed
their civilians so the comparison is not even
close.

The Israelis face potential or actual harm
from terrorists continually. The case is of
course propaganda and also an attempt
to appease the terrorists to prevent further
attacks on Spanish targets.

Dhimmi thy name is Spain. Al-Andalus will be
restored with these clowns in power.

Mar 31, 2009 - 8:05 am 15. savage24:

Sounds to me , that Spain wants to start up the modern day Inquistions. More than likely with the same results, proscution of the innocent.

Mar 31, 2009 - 8:09 am 16. Marie Claude:

OK, Congo can say whatever she wants, but the french court was a response for Kagame oriented accusations, (one can’t say that our counter-terrorism judges don’t charge for a lefty agenda, but for security’s), um he forgot that he is at the origin of the massacre business

http://www.france24.com/fr/20080926-reporters-rdc-congo-rwanda-rebelles-hutus-massacre-genocide-1994-tutsis-monuc-foret-viols

Mar 31, 2009 - 8:17 am 17. Frank:

I’d like to see these commie rats try to enforce Spains “universal jurisdiction”. Nice Try, you bunch of pathetic Marxist toadies. You are worse than the French

Mar 31, 2009 - 9:18 am 18. Josh Stevens:

Israel needs to just go berzerk/ all out, and never stop until victory is absolutely guaranteed. It’s too much BS dealing with all this pro-terrorist, pro-communist political fallout. Go insane, decimate the terrorists so that they can never recover, and ignore all cries from the international community. No one will be able to do any thing serious about it, and if any of those shitty little arab or european countries try, Israel would mess them up

Mar 31, 2009 - 9:27 am 19. JFM:

Marie Claude you should look at more reputable sources than PC American historians and French governement’s propaganda arm.

Franco was no friend of Nazi Germany. He used it when he needed weapons and gave back much less than French collabos like Laval were willing to give (I am not speaking of what Germany took through force or threats but what Laval gave or tried to give). Now Franco was ever the big bad wolf for all the PC people and Spain the place where every loser and adventurer in France projects his dream of revolution

About European Jews in Spain. Franco didn’t try to save Sepaharadic Jews, but he turned a blind eye to the activity of Spanish diplomats and didn’t recall them. Just that. His government gave them orders (that kept Germany happy) to stop but allowed them to disobey these orders without moving a finger about it and without ever sanctioning them. Also you have no idea of Spain’s economic condition after its civil war: people were starving. As in dying from hunger (much, much worse than in France or even in the Netherlands during the occupation): agriculture in the former republican zone had been ruined by collectivization and the experiments of anarchists, there was a shortage of seeds and no money to buy anything be it seeds, food or fertilizers because the republican government had given Spain’s gold to Stalin. Did you expect Spain would welcome additional mouthes to feed, specially between those who would be a net burden? Have you considered that German armies waere at the border and that looking tto friedly to Jews was dangerous? Other countries, whose economic situation was far better and who were in less dangerous situations didn’t rush to save the Jews. Also you must have what spaniards call “a face harder than reinforced concrete” in order to fault Franco for not taking Jews who didn’t provide an economic benefit when just a week ago you were telling that De Gaulle was right in 1962 for not accepting into France (whose economic situation was ten thousands better than the one of Spain during WWII) people who had fought for FRance and faced horrible deaths.

Finally a personal note. I have known a Spanish Jew. Not a Sepharad from Greece or Turkey but one whose family had been living in Melilla (North Africa) since Spain captured it in 1580. And he told me that Franco’s regime never caused any trouble or discriminated against his family either before, during or after WWII. No yellow stars, no order to register themselves, no loss of nationality, no rounding by Spanish police. Nothing

About French politicians involved in Rwandan genocide I think too that France is right of denying Kagame and still more to the ICC or similar UN-sponsored kangaroo court (I have more confidence in Rwanda’s judiciary than in the ICC) the right to judge its politicians. Now, if France had any decency these politicians would have been prosecuted in France, any monument or street named by Mitterrand would have been rechristened and if french people had any morality the politicians involved wouldn’t be able to be elected as dog catcher. AFAIK none of them has lost a single vote.

Mar 31, 2009 - 9:37 am 20. Marie Claude:

woah, JFM, I need some rest,

mind you later on

Mar 31, 2009 - 9:56 am 21. Free Quark:

B Dubya;

You must be reading a different history book than the rest of us.

Most of the native peoples of the Americas died from diseases caught from the Europeans, not by organized slaughter. The mechanics of micro-organisms were not understood until the 1800s.

Mar 31, 2009 - 9:57 am 22. TexEd:

Why doesn’t a judge in some country charge Spain with genocide, destruction of native peoples and cultures, theft of national treasures and all the other crimes that Spaniards inflicted on Central & South America. If nothing else, Spain should return all the gold looted by Spanish bandits with abject apologies all around!

Mar 31, 2009 - 10:14 am 23. kourosh:

This story is at best funny if not ridicules. The Spanish Marxists and old pirates with links to British anti-American gangs, not only ignore anything terrorists do against humanity; but they have the best economic relationship with the mother of all terrorists; Islamic Republic of Khomeiniosts and other radical Islamists. How in the world this nonsense so-called court never mentions injustices conducted on daily basis against Iranian people by Khomeinists. How many millions of people must be murdered in the hands of terrorists that these anti-Western civilization gangs open their eyes or their minds (if they have any)? US in its current configuration have been in existence for only the last 100years. How about murdering million of Americans (South, Central and North American) in the hands of Spanish, and Africans in the hands of British. If investigating, let us investigate the roots causes of the problems in the world. Who did what and when? US was not even a power when you Spanish mass murdered Mexican, or Chilean. Let us investigate the existence of your whole nation which is based on pirating any how.

Mar 31, 2009 - 11:00 am 24. jerryofva:

One more thing about Franco’s Spain and its relationship between Jews and Israel. During the 1973 war Franco was the only European leader to allow USAF transports to land in country on their way to Israel.

Mar 31, 2009 - 11:33 am 25. Marie Claude:

JFM you should look at more reputable sources than PC American historians and French governement’s propaganda arm.

really ? what are yours ? a guess ? a deceiptful hippie transformed into a neocon with all the attributes of that ideology, and especially the French undermining, useful for the cause… etc, etc, etc…

Franco was no friend of Nazi Germany. He used it when he needed weapons and gave back much less than French collabos like Laval were willing to give (I am not speaking of what Germany took through force or threats but what Laval gave or tried to give). Now Franco was ever the big bad wolf for all the PC people and Spain the place where every loser and adventurer in France projects his dream of revolution

you can’t compare Franco to a Nazy servant like Laval, besides he appears on the scene in 1943, at the moment of Germany harchened her gestapo methods and extended them to the whole hexagone, while it only was for the half’s before. Indeed Franco was doing the “right” war against the commies, and Hitler found it useseful to help him in order to blur UK and France atention, where “commies” were also threatening (ie Chamberlain Daladier short sight about his real projects). But Franco, being raised in a traditional spanish family background and having made his probations in colonial army, was a pragmatic man, and Jews were only consedered if they were useful to his agendas.

About European Jews in Spain. Franco didn’t try to save Sepaharadic Jews, but he turned a blind eye to the activity of Spanish diplomats and didn’t recall them. Just that. His government gave them orders (that kept Germany happy) to stop but allowed them to disobey these orders without moving a finger about it and without ever sanctioning them.

I guess he wasn’t idiot, he forecasted a failure for his “useful” friend, besides he didn’t want to be cut of from Jewish financial helps, and having the Alliee bombings on his backs.

Also you have no idea of Spain’s economic condition after its civil war: people were starving. As in dying from hunger (much, much worse than in France or even in the Netherlands during the occupation): agriculture in the former republican zone had been ruined by collectivization and the experiments of anarchists, there was a shortage of seeds and no money to buy anything be it seeds, food or fertilizers because the republican government had given Spain’s gold to Stalin. Did you expect Spain would welcome additional mouthes to feed, specially between those who would be a net burden? Have you considered that German armies waere at the border and that looking tto friedly to Jews was dangerous? Other countries, whose economic situation was far better and who were in less dangerous situations didn’t rush to save the Jews.

How fine you are at defensing a Franco, poor man, his people starved, he helped on that one with his brutal power, besides Spain was a rural country, where only a few richissim families own the economical means, be them agriculture’s where the majority of the workers were unalphabetised and in a real serfdom, he stole industry from the Basques… and this situation lasted until his death, umm, why so many Spanish emigrated then ?

Yeah we were wealthier, cuz you saw that from studio-made french movies LMAO, um when you hold a trick, you don’t leave it easily !

Also you must have what spaniards call “a face harder than reinforced concrete” in order to fault Franco for not taking Jews who didn’t provide an economic benefit when just a week ago you were telling that De Gaulle was right in 1962 for not accepting into France (whose economic situation was ten thousands better than the one of Spain during WWII) people who had fought for FRance and faced horrible deaths.

yeah, that’s your stubborn reading, besides I already replied you about that one

” Les musulmans, vous êtes allés les voir ? Vous les avez regardés avec leurs turbans et leur djellabas, vous voyez bien que ce ne sont pas des Français ! Ceux qui prônent l’intégration ont une cervelle de colibri, même s’ils sont très intelligents. Essayez d’intégrer de l’huile et du vinaigre. Agitez la bouteille. Au bout d’un moment, ils se séparent de nouveau. Les Arabes sont des Arabes, les Français sont des Français. Vous croyez que le corps français peut absorber 10 millions de musulmans qui demain seront 20 millions, et après demain 40 ? ”

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/whither-pakistan-dare-one-criticize-a-muslim-country/#comments

France healthier, after 3 consecutive wars ? on your screan LMAO

Finally a personal note. I have known a Spanish Jew. Not a Sepharad from Greece or Turkey but one whose family had been living in Melilla (North Africa) since Spain captured it in 1580. And he told me that Franco’s regime never caused any trouble or discriminated against his family either before, during or after WWII. No yellow stars, no order to register themselves, no loss of nationality, no rounding by Spanish police.

Of course, his family was “economically” useful to Franco

Nothing About French politicians involved in Rwandan genocide I think too that France is right of denying Kagame and still more to the ICC or similar UN-sponsored kangaroo court (I have more confidence in Rwanda’s judiciary than in the ICC) the right to judge its politicians. Now, if France had any decency these politicians would have been prosecuted in France, any monument or street named by Mitterrand would have been rechristened and if french people had any morality the politicians involved wouldn’t be able to be elected as dog catcher. AFAIK none of them has lost a single vote.

umm, you forgot that America supported Kagame’s rebels, and I don’t buy a Kagame organised court to wash him whiter than black, otherwise you should be in too

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/press.html

why I have to remind you what I already told you or brought you

JFM, tell me the truth for once for wich propaganda service are you working ?

Mar 31, 2009 - 11:44 am 26. dragontorch:

Guys, just for you to know… Spanish justice is completely politicized, most high-level judges will do what they understand the goverment that appointed them want them to do (as they owe them the job).

Current goverment is far beyond, let’s say Nancy Pelosi, and the most far-left extremist you can think of, and they exercise pressure over the judges much more than the same party did in the past (they were all a bit more serious 20 years ago). As a proof, it is recorded in video the goverment vicepresident giving an address to the supreme tribunal president (who nodded submissively and even excuse herself).

I hope I don’t need to tell you how many times Zapatero has showed his support to palestine criminals’ supporters (e.g. Arafat), and to the radical islamism in general.

You do the math…

The only good thing is that Zapatero is so incompetent that will always show his cards plenty in advance before playing them, so it is easy to see what he is up to most of the time, and if not, he will eventually make several mistakes, and make evident the real facts.

The only thing he is good at is propaganda, saving the distances, which are likely hughe, reminds me in that to some US president that I won’t name.

Ayway, bear with me, I had to suffer him for 4 years, and it seems that Spaniards don’t learn that the Socialist Party is a no-no when voting, at least until they get completely regenerated and regain some common sense.

Good Luck

Mar 31, 2009 - 12:06 pm 27. dragontorch:

P.D.

The Spanish term “liberal” is kind of the opposite from the american term. The “spanish liberal” is quite close to republican, except that there is only a single state in Spain.

The term we use for “american liberals” is “progressist”, the rough definition is somebody that wants all the power, al the money, everybody to agree with him/her, and the total obliteration of those who disagree.

The “spanish liberal” is somebody that believes in the self-freedom, private property, and small goverment (among other things). Some differences with republicans could be the right to carry weapons (may be a cultural issue though, but I admit that I don’t have the solution for the many assault cases you can see in the news, so eventually I came to agree with some controlled use of them by the people)

Have fun

Mar 31, 2009 - 12:23 pm 28. J.J. Sefton:

Fine. Let’s indict Spain for the Inquisition and the genocide of native Americans. My ancestors were forced to flee to Hungary so I also demand reparations.

Mar 31, 2009 - 1:20 pm 29. typos_R_us:

Tempest in a teapot. If the UN can’t arrest the main mullah of Sudan, then Spain cannot arrest anybody.
If this nutbag judge was a serious threat, Mossad would deal with him. Judges need to be reminded every now and then that the law doesn’t go where enforcement cannot reach.

Mar 31, 2009 - 3:15 pm 30. Christopher Smith:

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

Lol@ Israel! they will feel the fear lolLOL!

Mar 31, 2009 - 4:37 pm 31. David Levavi:

“…much to do with his (Andreu’s) personal rage over Israel’s ground invasion of the Gaza Strip in January 2009…

Spain became Spain when Ferdinant of Aragon Married Isabella of Castile and their combination of forces threw back the Moslems and drove them off of the Iberian peninsula. The royal ministers in the courts of Aragon and Castile who brought Ferdinand and Isabella together were Jewish.

Jews raised the funds for and the commissioned fabrication of the huge Italian cannon that pounded the walls of Moslem occupied cities like Granada to dust. Jewish mercantile and transport knowhow brought the cannon over the mountains. Highborn and wealthy Jewish knights in full armor fought the Moslems under Gothic standards and crosses.

At the time that the Moslem invaders were at long last being pushed back and a new nation called Spain was being formed, there was a Jewish community in Gaza. And in the dilapidated and depopulated town of Jerusalem, there was a larger Jewish community. Spain was barely a hundred and fifty years old when the Jerusalem-born, latter-day Jewish prophet, Nathan of Gaza (1643-1680), named Gaza his holy city because the Rabbis of the Jewish community in Jerusalem rejected him and his new Shabbatean religion. These Jewish communities were in “Palestine” before Spain was born.

Jews have always lived in Gaza. That Gaza is to remain forever Judenrein is a recent innovation sprung from the enlightened minds of Western peacemakers.

These Spanish Judges need to get out some history books and maps. They need to ask themselves why, if Jews were so critical to the foundation of modern Spain, are there so very few Jews living in Spain? These Spanish judges need to remind themselves that the Spanish exploration of the New World which fueled Spanish ascendance to world power was funded entirely by treasure looted from the Jews.
Ferdinand, the noble Christian ruler upon whom Machiavelli modeled The Prince, was broke after conquering the Moslems and so remained until he hit on the idea of ripping off the Jews who had brought him nothing but good fortune all his life. One final contribution to the Spanish crown extorted from the suckers who conceived and created it. Columbus was funded by money stolen from the Jews.

What there wasn’t in Gaza or Jerusalem or anywhere else in the world when Spain was in swaddling are “Palestinians.” That entirely new ethnicity was created after 1967 deliberately in order to appeal to Westerners and Christians like these two useful Spanish idiots in black robes.

Mar 31, 2009 - 5:39 pm 32. Doc99:

“Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.”
John 8:7

Mar 31, 2009 - 7:25 pm 33. Mike2:

31. David Levavi:

Good comments! I fear the anti semites will not listen though because the truth is not what they want, it is Jewish blood. Israel needs to start killing the worst of the Jew haters and then deny all responsibility. After all, targeted assassinations worked well for the KGB and for its present day manifestation in Russia.

Mar 31, 2009 - 7:29 pm 34. John Galt:

What gives Spain the right to prosecute Israel for fighting Hamas?

=============
Spanish Inquisition

Mar 31, 2009 - 7:36 pm 35. fred:

Just another example of what the alliance between Marxism and Islam looks like. It’s ugly. It’s petty. And some day we are going to give these people everywhere the beat down they deserve.

I’m losing patience rapidly with the Left. I’m all in favor of open warfare against the Marxists/socialists/progressives everywhere, but especially here at home. If we cannot stop, by political means, their attempts to destroy the Republic and shred the constitution, I’m all in favor of resorting to armed rebellion/civil war.

If the Left thinks what Pinochet did to Allende and the Chilean Communists was ugly, they ‘aint seen nothing yet.

Mar 31, 2009 - 9:06 pm 36. KZ:

Perhaps Spain should be tried for the actions of its Conquistadors in the New World. Actions that resulted in the deaths of millions of indigenous people and the destruction of their unique cultures.

People who live in tin houses shouldn’t throw can openers.

Mar 31, 2009 - 10:09 pm 37. Anne Herzberg:

Great article. Please see my monograph, NGO Lawfare: Exploitation of Courts in the Arab/Israeli Conflict at http://www.ngo-monitor.org. In the report, I detail the cases brought by PCHR in England and the US as well as other NGO-initiated cases against Israel.

Mar 31, 2009 - 10:50 pm 38. JFM:

Mr Levavi

According both to historians and legend the Muslim invasion in 732 was made possible because of betrayal in the Wisigothic Army. Betrayal by Christians. But the capture of Toledo, the Wisigothic capital, was due to betrayal by Jews.

Fast forward a few centuries. Christians have suffered a cruishing defeat at Alarcos at the hands of the Almohades (a North-African group of tribes who have invaded Spain) and know the later are preparing another expedition Northwards. Due to the losses at Alarcos the Christians have been forced to complement their forces with poor quality city milicias. But they are still outnumbered nearly two to one so they called for a crusade and thanks to the crusaders they have reached near parity with the Muslim Army. In addition the crusaders are far better quality than the city militias. Problem is that their favourite distraction is killing Jews. And the Catalian king ended sending them back before this battle he couldn’t afford to lose. Aftermath: the Christians won decisively and slaughtered the Muslim Army. However it was a very close thing and the outcome could have been the exact opposite.

Fast track again. A young man called Ferdinand who has at least one jewish grand father becomes king of Aragon and marries the queeen of Castilla named Isabel whose confessor Torquemada is also an inquisitor and has Jewish ancestors…

Apr 1, 2009 - 12:10 am 39. Marie Claude:

I’m waiting for discovering Charles Martel jewish ancestry

Apr 1, 2009 - 4:54 am 40. Marie Claude:

Fernando del Pulgar from whom comes the legend that Torquemada and or the kings of Castilla would be born from “converso” is mere fantasy ; Fernando was himself a “converso” and had to find some arguments to be accepted in the good spanish society

Fernando del Pulgar était le chroniqueur des Rois Catholiques. Et il était lui-même le fils d’un converso. Son ouvrage visait à présenter quelques personnages illustres de Castille à la Reine Isabelle. Il faut relever qu’il commet quelques erreurs, comme celle de faire naître Juan de Torquemada à Burgos10. Del Pulgar écrit à une époque où la loyauté et la foi des conversos et de leurs descendants sont violemment mis en doute. Et il est, en quelque sorte, en « première ligne ». A-t-il présenté Juan de Torquemada, prince de l’Eglise dont le pedigree religieux et politique était immaculé, comme un descendant de converso, afin de présenter un contre-exemple édifiant, et se protéger lui-même?

Apr 1, 2009 - 7:38 am 41. locke:

There is an insidious and frightening vertical integration between progressive-liberal governments,
which currently sit atop the Western democracies.
We are taxed to death locally, our speech and property
rights are modified severely at the national level,
and now sitting atop the whole fetid heap is the great
international liberal conscious, that uni-directional strange light of justice. Watch it ferret out the Argentine Generals, Pinochet, and now the Israelis. Watch it sweep over Cuba and Russia without comment. The Israelis should volunteer their leaders to the Spanish courts and immediately execute the same legal prerogative, based on their own sense of “universal”
justice.
their own sense of justice,

Apr 1, 2009 - 2:25 pm 42. JFM:

Mrs Marie Claude

So Diez del Pulager was the _official_ chronicler of the Catholic Kings and was allowed to falsely tell that the King, the Queen’s confessor and their best general (Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba) were Jews without one of the above taking action against him? Strange isn’t it (Note: Del Pulgar wrote when all the powerful men I mentioned were still alive and at the heighth of their power. Was your historian at Vichy or was he one of those who found Vichy far too soft and preferred the real thing?

Now about the Second Republic. First:the left didn’t win the elections in 1936. There was massive fraud and intimidation during vote counting with bizarre things like districts were the right did’t get a sinle vote. So the official results weren’t published until, from memeory, 1937. At this point the left sel-proclaimed winner of the elections and threatened the very lives of the former governement. Between the elctions and the 18th July coup there were dozens of political murders (about 90% perpetrated by the left often with police active collaboration, 10% by the right) and there were a number of laws, say improper in a democracy, like the one making possible to send judges to jail for “politically wrong” sentences. You have to keep firmly in mind that the PSOE wasn’t like the French PS and that Largo Caballero wasn’t Blum: he liked to be named “the Spanish Lenin” (that is the guy who dissolved an elected Parliament and created Gulag) and his speeches, writings and actions make clear that he didn’t belmive in democracy and was no man to leave power acfter losing an election (he tells of liquidating an entire class). Now if ypou want to know more iontstead of taking at face value the allegations in websites of American universities (the ones where Noma chomski, Wrad Churchill and imilar foam at the mouth moonbats have a near monopoly) or from the thief of pieces of art André Malraux I advise you to go directly at the sources so I give you two from the Republican site: Azańa (President of the Republic in 1936) and Besteiro was the socialist major of Madrid during the war (but unlike Largo Caballero he was a democrat) what they say about their side isn’t pretty. It would help if you could read Spanish.

Apr 2, 2009 - 12:16 am 43. David H:

Well said sir, JFM in 19, 38 and 42, a man who really knows real history, not the PC one.

I think Israel should ignore it and then if Spain does something like applying a warrant in another Europe country then ask the Spanish government if it wants to cause a war?

Apr 2, 2009 - 2:59 am 44. misanthropicus:

Carla Ponte’s (he’s Swiss, not Spanish though) rightfully gained the cognomen of “the unguided missile” for her inspector Cluseau-like flailing around – Abreu’s cognomen should be “the Mexican firecracker” for the capricious, unpredictable trajectory of his investigation.

Apr 2, 2009 - 3:15 am 45. misanthropicus:

RE #42. JFM RE: “[...] Between the elctions and the 18th July coup there were dozens of political murders (about 90% perpetrated by the left often with police active collaboration, 10% by the right) and there were a number of laws, say improper in a democracy, like the one making possible to send judges to jail for “politically wrong” sentences. […}

… etc, etc.,

And let’s not forget…
A) the criminal support of the international left coterie, starting with brave American “useful idiots” like Hemingway, Lillian Hellman, John Dos Passos and so on (by the way, those useful idiots while deploring the success of Franco in Spain were stragely mum about Stalin’s invasion of Finland) – and since here, the Spanish Civil War myths live well and false in the world’s collective memory, maintained by the same narcissistic & destructive international left-wing class… who would dare to shrug off Guernica (where during a justified bombing died somewhere betweeb 400-700 people), then remind the lefties about the Barcelonna May where the lefties fratricidal fight lead at beyond 1000 deaths?)

B) the bestiality of the left in Spain, who crimes dwarfingly outnumber Franco’s army reprisals,

C) etc. etc…

Here a good read about the communists (via Russia’s Stalin) cynical deep influence in that misery is Walter Krivitzky’s memoir “I Was Stalin’s Spy” (WK being the GPU coordinator in Spain during that period).

Apr 2, 2009 - 3:33 am 46. misanthropicus:

RE 44/45- sorry for typos & style. It’s 3 am PST and just crawled to the keyboard, coffee still unfinished.

Apr 2, 2009 - 3:36 am 47. MiamaMan:

Besides, Uncle Stalin stole all the gold reserves from Spain, the largest in the world at that time, trading it with low quality weapons. No wonder the Condor Legion air wing of the Luftwaffe beat them every time.

El Campesino (Comintern Valentin Gonzalez), the loony Dolores Ibarruri (La Pasionaria), and weak Azaña let the Politruks and NKVD take charge.

The brother of my maternal grandfather, from Bande, Ourense, Galicia, of surname Hermida, died in the battle of Teruel, famously cold, of course on the Nationalist side, he was Franquista.

Viva Franco!
Viva España!

Apr 2, 2009 - 5:13 am 48. JFM:

First some corrections to my previous posts.
In #38 I tell of the Catalian king. Most readers have probably thought this was a typo for Catalan king. In fact it was the Castilian king (Catalonia was never a kingdom, when it united with Aragon its ruler had the format title of Count of Barcelona).

In #42 when I tell of dozens of political murders in 36 it should have been read dozens per week. I forgot to mention that most/all the main conspirators in the 1936 coup were Republicans. Franco himself became involved in the coup only in the late stages.

Now let’s return to Mrs Marie Claude

When you tried to make me cry about the pooooooooor French in 1962 who couldn’t take 100,000 harkis I told you to just look at any movie from that time as a quick and pleasant (that is if you can stand Nouvellle Vague movies) reality check. But as you continue mocking me I have no alternative to point you to INSEE online and paper publications (Warning: The Sleeping Beauty tried to read them) or to any good history book centered in economics

About Spain and Jews, while WWII Spain was starving, 1962 French didn’t even remember how ration cards looked (rationing was abolished in 1948) so don’t try your morale equivalency games. Also your use of De Gaulle’s “10 million muslims” is dishonest because De Gaulle was spaeking about the 10 million Muslims in the whole of Algeria and would happen if France kept it, not about the 100,000 harkis. Not to mention that if France could not absorb 100,00 harkis whose offspring would be nowadays proud, patriotic French tell me the logic in allowing hundreds of thousands north african workers whose offspring hates your guts and forces France to spend millions in Army patrols at railways stations and underground trains.

Now about Franco, it is possible that he allowed Jews into Spain because he wanted to ingratiate himself with the Allies. It is also possible, when you look at how De Gaulle treated the harkis who managed to reach French soil, that he would have them gassed if he had been able to keep it secret. Now about Franco and Sephardi Jews, some people tell (I _cannot_ tell, I know _nothing_ about this field) that both Franco and Bahamonde (his mother’s name) were common place between conversos. Could be, could be, that part of Franco’s family were marranics (that is conversos who secretly practiced Judaism and ended evolving to a kind of christianized Judaism). I don’t think he was one himself but perhaps, perhaps his family ties made him think that Sephardi Jews were Spaniards and thus entitled to Spain’s protection just as the Castilian king I mentioned felt bound to honor his feudal duties to his Jewish subjects.

About my Spanish Jew friend from Melilla, I am sorry to disappoint you but he wasn’t from a rich family. It looks like you think all Jews are loan sharks.

Apr 2, 2009 - 5:18 am 49. JFM:

Actualization: Spain’s public prosecutor has required Andreu’s investigation to be archived. That is Spanish for thrown in the garbage can.

Apr 2, 2009 - 6:51 am 50. Marie Claude:

JFM

“According both to historians and legend the Muslim invasion in 732 ”

Umm I can trust your accuracy as you’re mixing up the dates

also your advocating of the jewishness of the kings and Torquemada, following an article in NYT saying that there is a certain percentage of jewish DNA shared by the spanish population, I suppose I can trust this source !

now, my reference wasn’t from Vichy, cher ami, but from a french Jew’s as your sayings can’t be found in the very historical sources

Try to update your life, umm, we are no more in the fourties or the sixties !

you like us so much, do you include our french jews ? cuz they are most likely the ones that make our medias and sources LMAO

Apr 2, 2009 - 7:01 am 51. MiamaMan:

48. JFM

Good point. I had mentioned somewhere else that Franco looked very Jewish and not as your typical Galician, who is usually fairer. So, the possibility of being a Marrano descendant is good.

Whatever may be said, he helped Jews and saved Sephardi jews from sure death by allowing them to get Spanish nationality.

Hey, don’t quarrel with La Pucelle Marie Claude (Madame Marianne), BTW, did you know she is French? Ha, ha, ha.

Apr 2, 2009 - 7:31 am 52. Marie Claude:

MiamaMan

umm, I bet you approve Franco for lending more than 30 000 spanish soldiers to the German SS waffen

Apr 2, 2009 - 7:54 am 53. MiamaMan:

Madame,

Of course I approve, I would have volunteered myself, or do you think that Uncle Stalin and the Soviets were better than Hitler, the former having murdered like 30 million people?

Nostalgie de la France,

Au revoir!

Apr 2, 2009 - 8:16 am 54. JFM:

Marie Claude, you are right 732 is the battle of Tours (aka battle of Poitiers). I have never been very good with dates.

Miaman

Franco came from a family with a strong tradition of serving in the Spanish Navy, he was the first to serve in the Army. It could be that he was not a “true” Galician, and only happened to be born there due to his father being destined at EL Ferrol where the Navy had a base. But you are right about him not looking Galician: his skin was relatively dark, he was short and in addition he had the round head and baldness typical in people from the South of Spain and uncommon in Galicia.

Apr 2, 2009 - 8:20 am 55. JFM:

Marie Claude

The Division Azul was not part of the Waffen SS (that was the French unit in the East Front). If you adjust your prefernces to English and google for Division Azul you will find in the very first page a photo of some of its soldiers. They wear German uniforms with a Spanish flag on their helmets but the SS runes are conspicuously absent. Sorry to break your heart.

At the cost of a given a single division to the Germans (they had more than 100) Franco got the following:
-Give Hitler a token of goodwill so he wasn’t tempted to order an invasion of Spain.
-Get rid of 30,000 hotheads who found Franco too soft and had been clashing with other factions of the Movimiento (to the point that Falangists had a bomb explode in a Traditionalist meeting)
-If soldiers of Division Azul fought well (looks like they did) it would prove to Hitler that invading Spain would be far from cheap in blood.

Apr 2, 2009 - 8:58 am 56. Marie Claude:

JFM

Why not saying that Franco had Berberian DNA (uh some say that spanish Jews were berberian converts), at least the muslims were more numerous than the Jews in these glorious times

BTW that’snot a google link where I found the information, but one given by an US army vet

It also says that the French, who were kinda forced to enroll in the SS Waffen (otherwise they would have rejoined the herd of war prisonners in Germany, but as soldiers, some can’t see life as in a immobilised situation), weren’t the most motivated LMAO

can’t say that of the other european participation

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/frames/fesk06.html

Apr 2, 2009 - 9:46 am 57. Marie Claude:

MiamiMAn, then I can see that you agree with people who say that the Holocaust was a “detail” of the history

Apr 2, 2009 - 9:51 am 58. Marie Claude:

JFM # 42

about Fernando del Pulgar :

http://www.phdn.org/antisem/torquemada.html

BTW Torquemada couldn’t respond to del Pulgar’s dires, while actually he was slaughtering native latin Americans

umm, about your spanish “conservative” links, I am surprised that the nowadays Spanish, and surely the Basques, don’t want to worship them

Apr 2, 2009 - 10:22 am 59. Marie Claude:

JFM, would you say that the king of Spain wasn’t a Franco’s product ?
he actually emeched a “coup d’etat” from the last Franco’s officers in 1981

http://www.espagne-facile.com/roi-espagne/840/

uh, I guess, cuz of his Bourbon lineage

Apr 2, 2009 - 10:36 am 60. Marie Claude:

empeched, typo si tu m’écoutes !

Apr 2, 2009 - 10:37 am 61. Marie Claude:

JFM #48,

“When you tried to make me cry about the pooooooooor French in 1962 who couldn’t take 100,000 harkis I told you to just look at any movie from that time as a quick and pleasant (that is if you can stand Nouvellle Vague movies) reality check. But as you continue mocking me I have no alternative to point you to INSEE online and paper publications (Warning: The Sleeping Beauty tried to read them) or to any good history book centered in economics”

LMAO tell me in which movies from the sixties in this link you find that they are witnessing of “a real french way of living” in the sixties ?

umm, may-be the Godard’s, but you’see in them that Jean Paul Belmondo was a marginal gangster that blurred a naive Jean Seberg then ! and the decor of their life can’t be seen as a wealthiest !

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_films_fran%C3%A7ais_sortis_dans_les_ann%C3%A9es_1960

about the INSEE stats for 1962, then they prove that de Gaulle wasn’t a dictator like Franco, he let the economical transformation of the french society to develop, while Franco had much more time since 1936 to make it

About my Spanish Jew friend from Melilla, I am sorry to disappoint you but he wasn’t from a rich family. It looks like you think all Jews are loan sharks.

I’m sorry for him, but “apparently” it was because Spain was ruined !

Apr 2, 2009 - 11:19 am 62. Marie Claude:

and about the Harkis, see what Mesmer a former Legion head says :

“Ma conscience est tranquille” a déclaré Pierre Messmer, Ministre des Armées au moment des accords d’Evian. Il a rappelé que 20 000 harkis et 80 000 membres de leurs familles étaient venus en France en 1962. Les autres avaient choisi de rester en Algérie car ils étaient protégés, en principe, par les Accords d’Evian. « C’est le FLN qui a menti », a-t-il ajouté, avant d’exprimer « des regrets, pas des remords ». “La guerre – que je connais bien hélas – ce n’est jamais propre, c’est toujours du sang, de la sueur et des larmes”, a-t-il poursuivi”

http://www.charles-de-gaulle.org/article.php3?id_article=836

so what you say is mere anti-gaullism propaganda

Apr 2, 2009 - 11:20 am 63. wancow:

Spain is Backing off the Lawsuite

36. KZ: “Perhaps Spain should be tried for the actions of its Conquistadors in the New World. Actions that resulted in the deaths of millions of indigenous people and the destruction of their unique cultures.”

A lot of Mexicans would agree with you! I don’t, but a lot of mexicans Would…

Apr 2, 2009 - 11:36 am 64. JFM:

Marie Claude

First: After a number of bloody rebellions and of being caught aiding the Turks or the Barbary pirates the conversos from the Muslim line were expelled from Spain, that is why present Spaniards have less Berber or Arab DNA than Jewish one.

Second: Given that del Pulgar was employed by Ferdinand as official chronicler I would that his employer that is Ferdinand would from time to time check at what he was writing, don’t you think? Del Pulgar seems to have died in 1492 that is he never knew of America being discovered (Colombus returned in March 1493). For Thomas de Torquemada he was 72 years old in 1492 and he, of course, never crossed the ocean. Also you should read Diaz del Castillo’s, that is a companion pof Cortez, Conquest of Mexico” he says: “Only voluntary conversions are valid” (Sorry if I break your heart again). Now this was nice but Conquistador tolerance did not extend to things like cannibalism or to religions who had 80,000 people sacrificed in two days for a single major festival.

Third: About the French in the SS, you got on my nerves when you said Division Azul was SS, sorry. I remember about the people of the SS Charlelmagne division but the people I was thinking about were those of the LVF and I don’t remeber if they were SS or Wehrmacht. Those you mention seem to be the Magre Nous, that is Alsatians that the Nazis considered Germans and as such subject to draft like any other Germans.
Also, at one point Dision Azul was disbanded into a much smaller unit the Spanish Legion (still part of the Wehrmacht), still later it was disbanded and Franco banned Spanish nationals of serving in foreign armies or lose thir nationality. A few disobeyed the order and two spanish SS companies (100 to 200 men each) were formed. These were the only ones who served in the SS

Fourth; About Juan Carlos. There are a number of conspiracy theories pointing that he could have known about or even inspired the coup. Anyway Milans del Bosc (coup’s highest ranking general was a the former commander of King’s own military establishment and he wasn’t a Franquist but a staunch monarchist.

Apr 2, 2009 - 12:28 pm 65. Old Soldier:

I don’t know much about Spanish history but I don’t think Franco was that big a fan of Hitler.

Franco absolutely refused to let a German division pass through Spanish territory to assault Gibraltar. It cost Germany the Mediterranean and maybe the war. Hitler should have done it anyway even if it meant war with Spain.

JFM – I believe the Division Charlemagne was the French Wafen SS unit that fought in the east.

Apr 2, 2009 - 12:38 pm 66. MiamaMan:

Marie Claude,

“MiamiMAn, then I can see that you agree with people who say that the Holocaust was a “detail” of the history”

Good try, low blow to the groin, ha, ha. Don’t let me outmaneuver you. But why?

My contempt for the Soviet state and its Gulag (read Solzhenitsyn) does not justify the Holocaust. On the contrary. BTW, I am an expert in a certain part of the Holocaust, Aktion Reinhard in the General Gouvernement around Lublin, Poland (Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka). Just a few days ago I contacted Toivi Blatt by email for a essay I am writing (also Robin O’Neil and Michael Tregenza), which he answered. Mr. Blatt is one of the 2 more important survivors of the Shoa, as he was in the Sobibor revolt at the age of 14, taking the SS to their deaths. He now lives in Seattle. The other living legend is Filip Muller, who resides in Germany, and is the only survivor of the Jewish Sonderkommando in Auschwitz (Arbeit Jude).

As for the current King of Spain, he would not be there but for Franco. He bypassed an older relative of the king who was in line, groomed him, paid for schooling, and always called Spain in the meantime a temporary Kingdom without King.

Allez Cochon! Ici Chacal!

Apr 2, 2009 - 12:44 pm 67. MiamaMan:

JFM

Your history of the Blue Division is right on the money, and very accurate as to how it later was broken down into smaller parts. They were volunteers even to the right of Franco, many of them cadets. The Wehrmacht sent them first to the Leningrad front where they excelled in courage and Soviets troops knew right away when they faced the Blue Division because of their dogged resistance. And yes, they were not SS.

SS Charlemagne, Franzosen, Frog volunteers. SS Wallonia, Belgian.

Your quote of the 80,000 or so sacrifices by Mexican emperor before Montezuma, I remember I found in Salvador de Madariaga’s Cortez biography. The prisoner were killed and then eaten by their captors. Rivers of blood and fat formed in the city.

Apr 2, 2009 - 12:57 pm 68. MiamaMan:

Old Soldier

I agree. Franco did not trust Hitler. The latter, after meeting Franco for 8 hours in Hendaye, told someone he would gladly go to the dentist to have all his teeth pulled than meet Franco again.

When Hitler asked for passage for German troops to take Gibraltar, Franco said that only Spanish troops could do that and proceeded to ask for a list of equipment that could not be satisfied, on purpose. He also reminded Hitler what had happened to Napoleon in Spain.

It is correct, this is one of several key mistakes that cost Hitler the war, for if he would have gone ahead anyhow, and as you say take
Gibraltar, then Egypt would have fallen to the Nazis, and things could had turn very nasty and very long, for Hitler would have continued to Iraq for the oil and even India for the kill.

Apr 2, 2009 - 1:09 pm 69. Marie Claude:

Of course most of the division Azul soldiers weren’t SS, but they adopted the nazy agendas in the first place, some of this heteroclite army boys became Waffen SS’.

Les défaites allemandes tant en Afrique du Nord que sur le front russe amènent le gouvernement espagnol à reconsidérer la situation. Il n’est plus question pour Franco de promettre « un million de soldats espagnols »si les Soviétiques marchent sur la capitale du Reich. D’autre part, les Anglo-Saxons exercent des pressions croissantes sur une Espagne qui dépend de ses importations de matières premières. Graduellement, Franco démet les phalangistes des postes gouvernementaux pour montrer son éloignement idéologique des puissances fascistes. Le retrait du général Muñoz Grandes, remplacé par son adjoint Esteban-Infantes, s’explique par ce contexte. Juillet 1943 voit l’effondrement de Mussolini en Italie après le débarquement anglo-américain.

umm, would you say that Franco wasn’t an opportunist ?

about LVF, their number has been exagerated, (by whom ???) on the ~13 000 volontaries, only 5 800 were recruted.

“Plus globalement, les faibles effectifs de la LVF traduisent une difficulté profonde des Français des années sombres à l’engagement militaire aux côtés des nazis : avec jamais plus de 6 500 combattants simultanément engagés, la France eut la plus faible contribution en volontaires de toute l’Europe collaborationniste, seules la Suisse et la Suède, pays neutres, en fournissant moins. À titre de comparaison, le collaborationniste Léon Degrelle leva plus de 20 000 volontaires belges francophones”

“Malgré la collaboration d’État, le régime de Vichy était officiellement neutre dans le conflit mondial et restait rétif à tout ce qui pouvait déboucher sur une collaboration militaire, interdisant aux officiers d’active de l’armée de s’engager dans la LVF. Pétain a cependant eu une attitude ambigüe envers la LVF: il déclara sa sympathie pour l’initiative dont les membres détiendraient « une part de notre honneur militaire », mais désapprouvera le port de l’uniforme allemand et gardera une attitude distante envers cette unité”

As far as “SS Charlelmagne division”, they weren’t Alsacians but French, of what was left of LVF, and heteroclite recrues, ie militias…

The Alsacians were considered as Germans and were forced in the german army, att whatever level it could be convenient.

So Juan Carlos hasn’t the best profil ! LMAO, yeah, conspiraty theories made that he has the guts to resist to the old spanish deamons. BTW, he is also the one that said to Chavez to STFU

umm what do you defend here ? a character that slaughtered his people, but nonentheless spared his Jews, that collaborated with Hitler until it was evident that Germany was going to loose the war… not bad for someone that want to see Jew blood in radical exterminators, such the kings of Castilla, Torquemada and Franco.

I would have preferred that you found some Jew DNA in Goya, or Velasquez, or El Greco… of course Aldomovar, as a “gay”, can’t !!!

Apr 2, 2009 - 1:32 pm 70. Marie Claude:

MiamiMan, would you say that Juan Carlos was the first to make the “pass someone under the bus” slogan a nowadays America opened lapalissade ?

If Franco hadn’t chosen a member of the nobleness related to former Kings, a new civil war would have occured in Spain, some back hits would have found their justification

Apr 2, 2009 - 2:08 pm 71. MiamaMan:

Marie Claude

Hey, hey, English please! No s…, oops, pardon my French!

Pierre Laval

Apr 2, 2009 - 2:21 pm 72. Marie Claude:

JFM

: After a number of bloody rebellions and of being caught aiding the Turks or the Barbary pirates the conversos from the Muslim line were expelled from Spain, that is why present Spaniards have less Berber or Arab DNA than Jewish one.

through a family curriculum, we can see that the berberian Jews supposed “expelled” from Spain came back with Tarik

“Mais au moment de la conquête arabe ou dans les années suivantes, une partie de la famille aurait suivi les armées arabes et se serait installée en Espagne et au Portugal : il est certain que lorsque Tarik a envahi l’Espagne, il était accompagné de plusieurs milliers de guerriers berbères.”

http://darmon.ifrance.com/origine.htm

also seems that the Berbers were well aware of the jewish traditions before that the muslims conquierred them

http://www.judaicultures.info/LES-BERBERES.html

“Dans une étude récente basée sur des données linguistiques et ethnographiques importantes, Paul Wexler, professeur à l’université de Tel-Aviv, a réexaminé cette question, pour aboutir à la conclusion que la grande majorité des Juifs sépharades descendraient d’habitants d’Afrique du Nord convertis au judaïsme et installés en Espagne”

so why do you pass the berberian Jews ancestry under the bus ? because Berbers are almost all muslims now ?

Apr 2, 2009 - 2:45 pm 73. Marie Claude:

MiaMan, uh, so you are a cheater, you pretended to know all about “french”

Lapalissade : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapalissade

Apr 2, 2009 - 2:50 pm 74. Still Bill:

A once proud country, Spain has become like most of Europe, a nation of scared rabbits. Spanish women are generally quite attractive, so I like them, but Spanish men are generally quite cowardly, so I detest them. When I sip my next Tennessee “sipping” whiskey during the next few hours of happy hour, I will salute the women of Spain. I will salute Spanish men when I go to the bathroom.

Apr 2, 2009 - 3:34 pm 75. Oscar the Grump:

Marie Calude
Good job!

Apr 2, 2009 - 3:45 pm 76. MiamaMan:

Ma Cherie Marie Claude,

I doubt you got the joke, here in the US when one cusses or says a bad word, one can excuse oneself by saying: Pardon my French!

Cheater? Low blow to the groin again?

No, but I have a good grasp of French culture, as you noticed, on history probably better than yours, as I don’t have to go to Wikipedia every time like you. You see, my wife is Armenian, and has relatives in several parts of France (like Charles Aznavurian or Aznavour). We usually stay in Paris in Bourg-la-Reine. They also have a nice country house in Le Loire with 2 lakes in the middle.

I have observed the changes in France. I went there for a honeymoon years back, and had a great time in a restaurant not far from Isle de la Cite called “Le Petit Zinc”. It is still there, Lindsay Lohan was in the news and in that place a month ago or so.

Dark clouds are gathering over Gallic country.

As for the problem you mentioned “your man” had with some black immigrants there when they pickpocket his wallet, I am sorry, I can only tell ya that here in Miama, I have a Concealed Weapon License and carry a 357-Magnum, and I will use it in no time. You see, according to Anglo-Saxon Common Law, and the Castle Doctrine, and thanks to Florida Republican Governor Jeb Bush, the Castle Doctrine in Florida (and a few other states in the nation), has been extended to encompass the whole state, so I do not have to retrieve, in other words, I can stand my ground to any scumbag that would like to harm me.

I with that, you have a good night!

Apr 2, 2009 - 4:38 pm 77. Marie Claude:

No, but I have a good grasp of French culture, as you noticed, on history probably better than yours, as I don’t have to go to Wikipedia every time like you.

funny I have already read that from a supposed upper educated person, you can though see that my link s don’t come from wikipedia, what a lapalissade !
I may not have grades in “History” tout court, but history is one of my favorite readings, and… I have a grade in history of Arts and civilisation, vlan !

Now, what We can read of your skills in history is that you have a very “oriented” lecture of the facts that illustrate your demonstration for Butchers who should rule the world.

Fortunately your kind of people are not ruling all the time, othewise I expect that the global-warmists wuldn’t have to advocate that there are too many inhabitants on this planet.

BTW, can you send me your litterature, cuz I am aegering to get educated by true enlighteneds

Perdon my english LMAO

Apr 2, 2009 - 5:30 pm 78. Marie Claude:

Oscar, you are my man

Apr 2, 2009 - 5:30 pm 79. Marie Claude:

Still Bill, the spanish men are not weak, just wise when they know that there isn’t any alternative left at the moment, and sorry they are Spanish and not Americans

perdon my english, I am having a paella con sangre del Toro

Apr 2, 2009 - 5:38 pm 80. Oscar the Grump:

Ferdinand was the product of a Jewish woman who was raped by a Spanish count. Ferdinand was kidnapped from his mother as a small child and raised by an uncle of the count. Acccording to DNA studies up to 30% of the Spanish carry Jewish DNA. There are still Maranos in Spain who identify themselves as having Jewish ancestry.

I have a few questions:
What are harkis?
What is the Jewish Berber connection?
I would like to know more about the Division Azul and the French Division that fought for the Nazi’s

This all could easily wind up in the book I’m writing.

Let MiamaMan know that those low blows to his groin are probably that large 357 he’s carrying. Maybe he should try a smaller caliber?

Apr 2, 2009 - 8:18 pm 81. JFM:

Exuse me Marie Claude but you should really get your facts right. Jews couldn’t come back with Tarik: their expulsion is in 1492 Tarik was the leader of the Muslim invasion (you know the one who would later be stopped at Poitiers in 732). The Moriscos (that is Muslims, be they from Spanish or Berber stock, who had converted to Christianity in order to be allowed to remain in Spain) were expulsed in 1609.

Also if there were French only 6500 volunteers it ios not becausde there were not enough Nazis in France but not enough French with balls.

About Spain, Spaniards really, really is hate their country paying the price for the dreams of any loser or adventurer or demented in France be it Napoleon, the one hundred thousands sons of Saint Louis, the art thief Malraux or the demented Andre Marti (aka the butcher of Albacete).
So le’s start with the beginning. The Second Spanish Republic was no longer a democarcy and its governemnt had not been democratically elected. Also when you are being murderd on a daily basis, that it is getting worse and that laws are being voted dailay who increase the dictatorial nature of the regime then you are entitled to exert the fourth right enumerated in the second article of the Declaration des Droits de l’Homme. “La liberte, la propriete, la surete et la resistance a l’oppression”

For Franco slaughtering his people. The numbers have been grossly inflated by the same people who said that Finland had invaded Soviet Union in 1940. He cerainly had less peolme killed in teh whole of Spain than the French Revolution in Vendee alone (and I am not speaking about those killed in military operations against the Chouans)

Spaniards who elisted in teh Division Azul were not necessarily Nazi sympathizers. Just people who had a forst hand experience of Anarchist (cf the death crdavans in Catalonia) and communist paradises. When your country has been ruined, that your family is starving because Stalin stole Spain’s gold , that 80% of Spain’s artistic heritage has been destroyed (France would get a lot less tourists if it hadn’t been), atha many of yor raletiavess have been killed in Checas led by NKKVD agents or skinned alive directly by the NKVD (who was given a free pass in the Republican zone) you could be forgiven if you are in vengeful mode. Spanirds have long memories unlike the Frennch who went to fight for Satalin (Normandie-Niemen) that is Former Hitler’s best ally, with the communists who had sabotaged the French Army in 1940 or who started the EEC with people whose hands still reacked of Zyklon B.

Also it is becaise ypou see something that it is true. I have a depp distruts for French historians about WWII. They have been unable to cope with Vichy (vbest specialist about it is Alan Paxton, an American) and have completely silenced communist aid to the Wehrmacht in 1940.

Now use your logic. If Francgo gave Hitler nothing at Hendaya when England was on the ropes and an invasion seemed imminent why would he give him something after the invasion had been postponed and the US Navy had been attacking U Boots every time it had detected one?

But Frecn historians had ever liked to tell that France powes its fredom to Stalin and ever hated Franco. Now if Franco had given Hitler what he wanted: submarine and aircraft bases in Galicia and Canarias plus neutralizing Gibraltar then Freate Britain would have lost the battle of the Atlantic and the war. And Soviet Union would have been crushed like a bug.

Apr 3, 2009 - 12:17 am 82. MiamaMan:

Señora Marie Claude.

Way to go baby! Yeah, I support Genghis Khan, so?

But you are so Frenchcorrect, thanks for the corrections.

The lapizlazuli website I do not know.

Let’s wait for Franco to reincarnate.

At least Rajoy will win next elections, and can comeback to visit, as I swore not to do so till Mr. Shoemaker (Zapatero) gets the boot.

Adios,

Apr 3, 2009 - 2:54 am 83. Marie Claude:

MiamaMan “The lapizlazuli website I do not know”

but the crystal balls’one you don’t ignore

umm, your dreams aren’t gonna happen, since globa government had won its last grades, your going to have some long deceiptions

BTW, I’m still waiting for your litterature LMAO

Apr 3, 2009 - 4:45 am 84. JFM:

Oscar the Grump

Harkis were non-European Algerians who fought with the French against FLN in the Algerian independence war. Reasons range from feeding their families to being wary of what FLN would do after the independence: FLN was a mix of islamists, communists, pan-arabists (disliked by Berbers) and loooooooots of pimps, thieves and similar criminals. Another reasons for siding with the French was good old revenge as the FLN tried to terrorize the population (at that time not that enthousiastic) into supporting it. Picture entire villages (of North Africans not of Europeans) massacred in the most sadistic way. And a number of them were genuinely pro-France

After independence De Gaulle had the harkis disarmed by the French Army (the FLN would have been unable to do it because it was heavily outnumbered by them). Despite having fought for France they were not French enough for De Gaulle so they were left behind despite De Gaulle knowing what would be their fate. They were sawed alive, electrocuted, boiled and worse. French officers had strict orders to abandon them. A few disobeyed and had their careers trounced or were expelled from the Army. The harkis they had managed to bring to France were parked in concentration camps in awful conditions. A true story: a woman is brought to hospital for giving birth and on the same day she was brought back with the baby to sleep in a tent by 14F (-10C). I am intimately persuaded that if he had been able to do it in secret De Gaulle would have had them gassed. May he roast in hell.

For Division Azul you could try to google around but most links are in Spanish and whatever their language they tend to be strongly biased sometimes depicting them as the worst scum who ever walked on earth and sometimes as a mix of samurai for the fearlessness, arthurian knights for the chivalrousness and Napoleonic Old Guard for the skill. Now a funny anecdote: Division Azul’s first commander, General Muńoz Grandes, had plans to, with German help, push Franco aside to a position of figure head and have Spain actively enter war on the Axis side. So Franco recalled him and had the whole Government but himself wait for him at airport. There Muñoz Grandes was awarded the highest Spanish medal, promoted to Lieutenant General, ie the highest rank in the Spanish Army and… given no troops to command.

To Marie Claude

In my previous hastily typed post at one point it should read: “It is not because something is in print that it is true”.

Apr 3, 2009 - 5:27 am 85. Marie Claude:

Oscar

“Ferdinand was the product of a Jewish woman who was raped by a Spanish count. Ferdinand was kidnapped from his mother as a small child and raised by an uncle of the count. Acccording to DNA studies up to 30% of the Spanish carry Jewish DNA. There are still Maranos in Spain who identify themselves as having Jewish ancestry.”

sources ?

jewish DNA in spanish population is said to be 20% according to :

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/science/05genes.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Harkis :Betrayors (for Algerians)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3jsrl_1962-les-harkis-dalgerie_politics

Apr 3, 2009 - 5:39 am 86. Marie Claude:

Oscar

Pierre Messmer on the Harkis :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6xtv1lpDm4

articles (in french)

http://guy.perville.free.fr/spip/article.php3?id_article=221

Apr 3, 2009 - 5:54 am 87. Marie Claude:

“I would like to know more about the Division Azul and the French Division that fought for the Nazi’s”

you’ll find the infos here (quite complete)

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/index.html

Apr 3, 2009 - 5:59 am 88. Marie Claude:

What is the Jewish Berber connection?

http://www.publishersrow.com/ebookshuk/cart/shopproductdetail.asp?id=59&1238734800000

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/History_of_the_Jews_in_Algeria

Apr 3, 2009 - 6:25 am 89. Marie Claude:

JFM, I got to work, I’ll be on your back later on

Apr 3, 2009 - 6:27 am 90. JFM:

I don’t doubt Pierre Messmer’s conscience was clean. I just doubt that he had any besides obeying his god, that is De Gaulle.

Apr 3, 2009 - 6:48 am 91. Marie Claude:

JFM, Messmer was a legionnaire, I doubt that he cared to lick anyone’s a**

Apr 3, 2009 - 7:41 am 92. Marie Claude:

JFM

“Harkis were non-European Algerians who fought with the French against FLN in the Algerian independence war.”/i>

right

Reasons range from feeding their families to being wary of what FLN would do after the independence: FLN was a mix of islamists, communists, pan-arabists (disliked by Berbers) and loooooooots of pimps, thieves and similar criminals. Another reasons for siding with the French was good old revenge as the FLN tried to terrorize the population (at that time not that enthousiastic) into supporting it. Picture entire villages (of North Africans not of Europeans) massacred in the most sadistic way. And a number of them were genuinely pro-France

umm your imagination is a bit derailing

The berbers you are talking were no pro-France, they were Kabyles, kinda remnent rebels since their origins, and they initiated the war of independance (that the FLN “robbed” them for their own agendas. They are a branch of the Berbers culture. Their ancestry is related to Romans and Phoenicians. They mostly are white, caucasian type, with green eyes.

some videos about “Kabylia”

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9F51B1C7899F4EBD

After independence De Gaulle had the harkis disarmed by the French Army (the FLN would have been unable to do it because it was heavily outnumbered by them). Despite having fought for France they were not French enough for De Gaulle so they were left behind despite De Gaulle knowing what would be their fate. They were sawed alive, electrocuted, boiled and worse. French officers had strict orders to abandon them. A few disobeyed and had their careers trounced or were expelled from the Army. The harkis they had managed to bring to France were parked in concentration camps in awful conditions. A true story: a woman is brought to hospital for giving birth and on the same day she was brought back with the baby to sleep in a tent by 14F (-10C). I am intimately persuaded that if he had been able to do it in secret De Gaulle would have had them gassed. May he roast in hell.

yeah, I can see your bias here, I’d like to know if yu are not reading the FLN par when it is convenient for you to backstabbing de Gaulle. If there were such cases, they weren’t the generallity.

“It is not because something is in print that it is true”.

OK, then it could be applied for your dires LMAO
I never seen your links, must be an oral tradition by your’s !

Apr 3, 2009 - 8:27 am 93. JFM:

Marie Claude

Never told that all Berbers or Harkis were for France. I told a number were, that includes so called Arabs who are in fact Arabic speaking Berbers. In the same way that most Corsicans prefer France to an independent Corsica a number not the majority but a number weren’t that thrilled about independence because they anticipated corruption, islamisation (women weren’t happy about it), arabisation (Kabyls weren’t happy) and falling back in economic development. Bachaga Boualem was a pro-France North-African. Also the first victim of the war was not an European but the North African major of a village who tried to protect two teachers he was bringing to his village. He wanted instruction and a better future for the kids in his village. People who thought like him were likelier to think that an FLN ruled Algeria would become just another third world cesspool and prefer, at least for a time, French rule.

Another funny anecdote: when the FLN people tried to preach revolt in Kabylia they were answered “Why are you speaking Arabic? If you want to be understood by us then speak French”. I don’t know if they really didn’t understood Arabic or if they were just telling that they wouldn’t let themselves to be Arabized. It could even have been a warning: “We prefer the French to Arab imperialism”

Also it saddens me you are so insensitive to the baby’s story. Are you sure you are a woman? Or is it because he was just an untermensch? Such cases were commonplace and anyway after ten fricking months they were still in tents. Not even wooden barracks, tents.

Apr 3, 2009 - 9:26 am 94. Marie Claude:

from whom do you hold your “funny” anecdote ? there were so many stories from these times that sorting the truth from propaganda is comparable to sort out those of the Balkan war ’s. I guess we’ll know the truth when the people who were involved in these conflicts will be dead, until then a sort of silence law empeches the consciencenesses to deliver their bitterness, as far as narrations. Of course there are general studies that have been made, not always favorable to the Frenchs. Though the enemi wasn’t a Choir child too.

And I am in use to not trust the anglo-saxon sources to advocate an impartial narration on us, at least not from the intellectuals, but I rather prefer those from the US army historians (for UK, I am not aware that their army is fond of writing history books. Militaries are the people who know the price of life, and of blood, I don’t remember that they find some interest to lie.

Well, How can I be troubled by your anecdote, I don’t know if your still playing the bashing part of yours, and of giving me lessons.

Are you living in the US ? I am seing you like a Palestinian with your contradictions

Apr 3, 2009 - 11:39 am 95. Oscar the Grump:

Marie Claude
Thanks for the great explanations. I love it when I learn something.
Love you, bye.

Apr 3, 2009 - 12:37 pm 96. MiamaMan:

Marie Claude

Please stop trying to convince every one, you hard-headed French woman.

Drink a Pernod, smoke a Gauloises, and have some Brie, and leave people alone.

Besides, stop quoting in “Langue d’Oc”, people here barely understand English.

What “litterature” of mine are you referring to?

Vive Le Pen!

Un ami qui vous veut du bien

MiamaMan

Apr 3, 2009 - 7:41 pm 97. Marie Claude:

JFM, ah uh, got a link for you :

http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-politique/la-vraie-nature-du-general/917/0/243794

Apr 4, 2009 - 6:10 am 98. MiamaMan:

marie claude, ah uh, got somepin’ for ya, ah eh uh, LMAO, OTOH ah eh uh, betrayors, got to work, ah eh uh eh uh eh uh eh uh eh uh….

Apr 4, 2009 - 8:31 am 99. Marie Claude:

ah, MiamiMan, I was censured, dommage, my litterature was very accurate for your AK47

Apr 4, 2009 - 9:01 am 100. Marie Claude:

JFM,
Exuse me Marie Claude but you should really get your facts right. Jews couldn’t come back with Tarik: their expulsion is in 1492 Tarik was the leader of the Muslim invasion (you know the one who would later be stopped at Poitiers in 732). The Moriscos (that is Muslims, be they from Spanish or Berber stock, who had converted to Christianity in order to be allowed to remain in Spain) were expulsed in 1609.

contrary to what you assert Jews came back to Spain with the new “arab” settlement, artesans, stores owners, erudits… not alone the jews, but also the tzigoiners, that’s where their songs and dances culture mixed with the original inhabitants’ became the label of Andalucia. They were also discriminated.

http://www.bdancer.com/history/BDhist2c.html

Also if there were French only 6500 volunteers it ios not becausde there were not enough Nazis in France but not enough French with balls.

About Spain, Spaniards really, really is hate their country paying the price for the dreams of any loser or adventurer or demented in France be it Napoleon, the one hundred thousands sons of Saint Louis, the art thief Malraux or the demented Andre Marti (aka the butcher of Albacete).

I bet you can’t help yourself from baiting, are you winning something ? this is simply gratuitous

So le’s start with the beginning. The Second Spanish Republic was no longer a democarcy and its governemnt had not been democratically elected. Also when you are being murderd on a daily basis, that it is getting worse and that laws are being voted dailay who increase the dictatorial nature of the regime then you are entitled to exert the fourth right enumerated in the second article of the Declaration des Droits de l’Homme. “La liberte, la propriete, la surete et la resistance a l’oppression”

it could have been said with some historical perspective, though I see to whom your sympathety doesn’t go !

For Franco slaughtering his people. The numbers have been grossly inflated by the same people who said that Finland had invaded Soviet Union in 1940. He cerainly had less peolme killed in teh whole of Spain than the French Revolution in Vendee alone (and I am not speaking about those killed in military operations against the Chouans) Spaniards who elisted in teh Division Azul were not necessarily Nazi sympathizers. Just people who had a forst hand experience of Anarchist (cf the death crdavans in Catalonia) and communist paradises.

umm, do you have true sources ? I am entitled to think that you’re making a good job in sophistry

sorry to tell you that France was/is a traditional touristic country, hey, say, thanks to our intellectuals and artists, Versailles style was copied by the richest europeans nobleness… Schönbrünn, Catherine of Russia… (and today by the Chineses LMAO)and by the Americans, la mode française dans “gone in the wind” seems to have some amateurs !

Spain wasn’t known as a touristic country, but an austerical country, ie the differents spanish kings daughters that were married in France, England… some radical bigots. Charles le Quintus made Spain, but he was more of a germanic culture, some religious warrior too.

atha many of yor raletiavess have been killed in Checas led by NKKVD agents or skinned alive directly by the NKVD (who was given a free pass in the Republican zone) you could be forgiven if you are in vengeful mode. Spanirds have long memories unlike the Frennch who went to fight for Satalin (Normandie-Niemen) that is Former Hitler’s best ally, with the communists who had sabotaged the French Army in 1940 or who started the EEC with people whose hands still reacked of Zyklon B.

yeah, not the spanish commies ? ah right, Franco eliminated the whole lot !

Also it is becaise ypou see something that it is true. I have a depp distruts for French historians about WWII. They have been unable to cope with Vichy (vbest specialist about it is Alan Paxton, an American) and have completely silenced communist aid to the Wehrmacht in 1940.

But you have, and I can see the result with your certitudes on de Gaulle…
No, you are reading our history from your own agenda and may-be from your family personal life, So, I think that you are either a sionnist Jew and or a “pied-noir from Algeria. They are the persons that reproach everything to the French, and especially because of our support to de Gaulle.

Now use your logic. If Francgo gave Hitler nothing at Hendaya when England was on the ropes and an invasion seemed imminent why would he give him something after the invasion had been postponed and the US Navy had been attacking U Boots every time it had detected one?

are you naive enough for thinking that is is a serious argument ? if he had to invade Spain, he could have made it when he was helping in the war against the nationalists, he was asking Franco to cross Spain for attacking Gibraltar, and as Franco wasn’t an idiot, he knew that the Alliees would make him pay the price, as you already said that Spain was ruined, then entering in the WW would have made of Spain a third world country, and for Franco, bye-bye the power !

But Frecn historians had ever liked to tell that France powes its fredom to Stalin and ever hated Franco. Now if Franco had given Hitler what he wanted: submarine and aircraft bases in Galicia and Canarias plus neutralizing Gibraltar then Freate Britain would have lost the battle of the Atlantic and the war. And Soviet Union would have been crushed like a bug.

I don’t understand your raisonnement, can you make it more simple, he, I am an uneducated French

Apr 5, 2009 - 9:01 pm 101. JFM:

First of all I haven’t implied that Spanish monuments would have dried tourism to France. Only that some percentage, say 10% or 20% of the people who now visit French monuments would visit Spanish ones instead.
Spain wasn’t a touristic country. It was a starving country. Once it no longer starved it began attracting tourists. However it was “low quality” tourists (read blue collars), partly not entirely but partly because most of its artistic tresaures had been destroyed. The destruction of Spanish coast would have been less intensive if Spain had got a few more high revenue tourists visiting its monuments and less blue collars on the beaches. For a glimpse of Spain’s formerly magnificent coast look at the movie “Pandora”. Besides it is a magnificent movie and Ava Gardner simply shines.
For French intellectuals, pleaaaaase. Has French litterature produced something meaningful after “In search of the lost time?”. For tourism France had two significnt advantages over Spain: it was closer (going from Germany or the UK to Spain was not a viable option before planes and massive car ownership) and it had much more brothels.

For the perspective over Spain’s second Republic no longer being a democracy I gave examples in previous posts. I also mentioned two prominent contemporary Republican politicians (one of them a socialist) who agree about it.

For the first hand experience about communist paradise let’s begin with Paracuellos del Jarama (Spain’s own Kathyn). This is a well known case because PCE’s former general secretary Santiago Carrillo was involved in it but there were dozens like it. For NKVD arresting and killing people in Spain as if Spain was just another Spviet Republic google about the death of Andreu Nin aka Andres Nin. As an example of what anarchist death caravans did (it is about a single one in a single village but there were dozens of them) read “L’omnibus de la mort: Parada Falset” (in catalan). Now I think that enlisting in the Division Azul was _wrong_, it happens I understand the people who did it (and when ethey enlisted Nazism has still not fully displayed its monstruous face (they enlisted in 1941, Wannsee conference was in 1942). Also by war end most former republicans had lost their illusions about it. I have known a number of working class Spaniards hostile to Franco but who had still bad memories from the Republic. You could also think about the Maquis in 1945: despite having a a safe rear guard (in France) and having polished their skills in teh Resistance they were crushed in months. The Germans never met similar success, the NKVD needed several years to wipe out post WWII resistance movements (who hadn’t the key asset of safe rear base). So either Spanish security forces were a hundred timesmore efficient than the German and Soviet ones (laughable) or the populace, workers and peasants included turned them on. “Guerrilla must be in the people like a fish in water” Mao. Obviously the post WWII maquis never were.

yeah, not the spanish commies ? ah right, Franco eliminated the whole lot !

Eliminating commies and nazis is a good deed, don’t you think?

Now let’s talk about submarines. A submarine has a certain range who can be measured either in miles or cruising days. A bit like a plane who crashes when she has spent her fuel a submarine _must_ be back in its base before running out of fuel, food and water. So the shorter the distance between its base and its zone of patrol the larger the number of days it can spend looking for preys instead of transiting. In other words if 300 submarines in bases distant to their targets translate into 100 on patrol at any given moment, if they are closer they translate into 150 or 200. In addition instead of being forced to rely on large long range submarines you can build a larger number of cheaper short range ones who being smaller are also harder to detect by the enemy. Galicia was closer to “submarine territory” (that is beyond the range of British patrols) than France

Also from 1939 to mid 1943 and the invention of the schnorkel submarines were agonizingly slow while underwater and powered by their electric engines. In addition their batteries didn’t last long. That meant they had to surface in order to use their diesel engines both for moving significantly towards or from their zone of patrol and for recharging their batteries. Surfacing by daylight was very dangerous so they spent the day underwater making nearly no progress towards their objectives and surfaced at night. Despite this a high percentage of their losses happened to aerial attacks in the Gulf of Gascogne. Move these submarines to Galicia now. They are closer to a number of important sea lanes. They are much farther from British bases than from Saint Nazaire or La Rochelle so before the British get long range antisubmarine aircraft they can happily, not entirely because there is still the, smaller, threat of British surface combatants, move on surface in whole day light. Even after the British get long range bombers, these can spend less time patrolling before being forced to return to their bases. The danger zone between base and the limit of bomber range is also much smaller.
That was for North Atlantic. Let’s imagine an air base in the Canary Islands and the British have a real problem for supplying the forces who are fighting the Afrika Korps in Lybia and for keeping open the sea lanes with their empire.

Churchill says in his “History of Second World War” that the only thing who made him lose any sleep was the submarine menace and everyone of his six volumes opens with a map of merchant ships and submarines sunk. Economic data also evidences that British economy came close to being strangled. You end not being able to build enough antisubmarine ships and planes because the ships transporting the materials you needed have been sunk.

Let’s consider Gibraltar now. Occupying it is not even necessary. All it is needed is continuous artillery fire to make it untenable. The next British base on the African Coast is Sierra Leone, that is beyond the range of antisubmarine escorts…

Now you can say that Franco didn’t join the Axis out of fear (of what? Great Britain was nearly powerless to retaliate), due to stupidity (that is what politically correct historians say) because he was too old school to notice that unlike in Napoleonic times direct invasion was no longer a requirement to defeat the British or because he found Nazism repellent as other people say. You can even pretend that it was because his new shoes hurt him or that he was in bad mood after a row with his wife over the wallpaper at El Pardo. His motivations don’t matter. What matters is that by not agreeing to enter the war he saved Allies bacon and by the same occasion, France’s worthless skin.

Now lets envision what happens if the Spanish Republic had won the war. Either Hitler invades Spain and gets what I detailed above or Spain’s Soviet Republic willingly and enthusiastically gives it to Stalin’s ally. Either way the Allies lose the war.

Apr 6, 2009 - 8:08 am 102. Marie Claude:

First of all I haven’t implied that Spanish monuments would have dried tourism to France. Only that some percentage, say 10% or 20% of the people who now visit French monuments would visit Spanish ones instead.
Spain wasn’t a touristic country. It was a starving country. Once it no longer starved it began attracting tourists. However it was “low quality” tourists (read blue collars), partly not entirely but partly because most of its artistic tresaures had been destroyed. The destruction of Spanish coast would have been less intensive if Spain had got a few more high revenue tourists visiting its monuments and less blue collars on the beaches. For a glimpse of Spain’s formerly magnificent coast look at the movie “Pandora”. Besides it is a magnificent movie and Ava Gardner simply shines.

umm, you haven’t visited Spain !

Apart the “Pays Basque” who was the favorite bombing place for Franco and his good servants, nazy Germany and fascist Italy, almost the rest of the country still has its original villages and inner center cities.

the 10% to 20% that visit french monuments but would also visit the spanish ones are these american tourists who visit Europe capitals through a week trip. I wonder what kind of perception they can get, apart their hotel and Mac Donalds food.

escuse me the spanish coast has been destroyed at the end of Franco life and in the next decades after, where banks bubbles business trough the anglo-saxon model prevailed.

I have the feeling that you believe to know the world places and populations through movies. Then, you don’t know how movies are made and storyboarded

Apr 6, 2009 - 10:32 am 103. Marie Claude:

For French intellectuals, pleaaaaase. Has French litterature produced something meaningful after “In search of the lost time?”. For tourism France had two significnt advantages over Spain: it was closer (going from Germany or the UK to Spain was not a viable option before planes and massive car ownership) and it had much more brothels.

I believe you only know the stars of our litterature that you studied in your high school programs, umm Victor Hugo too, n’est’il pas ? LMAO

you ignore the paquebots lines, many southern Americans find the month Atlantic crossing worth of the pain !

OK, you know the “promenades des Anglais” in Nice, but ignore that all the european gotha had its fashionalble cure stations too, and Nice of course.

that the parisian brothels were the world jet-set’s favorites, LMAO

er, some jalousy here ?

Apr 6, 2009 - 10:43 am 104. Marie Claude:

For the perspective over Spain’s second Republic no longer being a democracy I gave examples in previous posts. I also mentioned two prominent contemporary Republican politicians (one of them a socialist) who agree about it.

Democraty in Spain started when Franco died

For the first hand experience about communist paradise let’s begin with Paracuellos del Jarama (Spain’s own Kathyn). This is a well known case because PCE’s former general secretary Santiago Carrillo was involved in it but there were dozens like it. For NKVD arresting and killing people in Spain as if Spain was just another Spviet Republic google about the death of Andreu Nin aka Andres Nin. As an example of what anarchist death caravans did (it is about a single one in a single village but there were dozens of them) read “L’omnibus de la mort: Parada Falset” (in catalan). Now I think that enlisting in the Division Azul was _wrong_, it happens I understand the people who did it (and when ethey enlisted Nazism has still not fully displayed its monstruous face (they enlisted in 1941, Wannsee conference was in 1942). Also by war end most former republicans had lost their illusions about it. I have known a number of working class Spaniards hostile to Franco but who had still bad memories from the Republic. You could also think about the Maquis in 1945: despite having a a safe rear guard (in France) and having polished their skills in teh Resistance they were crushed in months. The Germans never met similar success, the NKVD needed several years to wipe out post WWII resistance movements (who hadn’t the key asset of safe rear base). So either Spanish security forces were a hundred timesmore efficient than the German and Soviet ones (laughable) or the populace, workers and peasants included turned them on. “Guerrilla must be in the people like a fish in water” Mao. Obviously the post WWII maquis never were

umm, spanish fascism history is your favorite !

but not for the true historians

Apr 6, 2009 - 10:50 am 105. Marie Claude:

Now lets envision what happens if the Spanish Republic had won the war. Either Hitler invades Spain and gets what I detailed above or Spain’s Soviet Republic willingly and enthusiastically gives it to Stalin’s ally. Either way the Allies lose the war.

umm, you said Spain was starving and ruined, how comes that Franco managed these Galicia and Canaries sub-marines bases ?

Apr 6, 2009 - 11:07 am 106. Marie Claude:

Romance Sonámbulo

Verde que te quiero verde.
Verde viento. Verdes ramas.
El barco sobre la mar
y el caballo en la montaña.
Con la sombra en la cintura
ella sueña en su baranda,
verde carne, pelo verde,
con ojos de fría plata.
Verde que te quiero verde.
Bajo la luna gitana,
las cosas la están mirando
y ella no puede mirarlas.

Verde que te quiero verde.
Grandes estrellas de escarcha
vienen con el pez de sombra
que abre el camino del alba.
La higuera frota su viento
con la lija de sus ramas,
y el monte, gato garduño,
eriza sus pitas agrias.
¿Pero quién vendra? ¿Y por dónde…?
Ella sigue en su baranda,
Verde came, pelo verde,
soñando en la mar amarga.

— Compadre, quiero cambiar
mi caballo por su casa,
mi montura por su espejo,
mi cuchillo per su manta.
Compadre, vengo sangrando,
desde los puertos de Cabra.
— Si yo pudiera, mocito,
este trato se cerraba.
Pero yo ya no soy yo,
ni mi casa es ya mi casa.

— Compadre, quiero morir
decentemente en mi cama.
De acero, si puede ser,
con las sábanas de holanda.
¿No ves la herida que tengo
desde el pecho a la garganta?
— Trescientas rosas morenas
lleva tu pechera blanca.
Tu sangre rezuma y huele
alrededor de tu faja.
Pero yo ya no soy yo,
ni mi casa es ya mi casa.
— Dejadme subir al menos
hasta las altas barandas;
¡dejadme subir!, dejadme,
hasta las verdes barandas.
Barandales de la luna
por donde retumba el agua.

Ya suben los dos compadres
hacia las altas barandas.
Dejando un rastro de sangre.
Dejando un rastro de lágrimas.
Temblaban en los tejados
farolillos de hojalata.
Mil panderos de cristal
herían la madrugada.

Verde que te quiero verde,
verde viento, verdes ramas.
Los dos compadres subieron.
El largo viento dejaba
en la boca un raro gusto
de hiel, de menta y de albahaca.
¡Compadre! ¿Donde está, díme?
¿Donde está tu niña amarga?
¡Cuántas veces te esperó!
¡Cuántas veces te esperara,
cara fresca, negro pelo,
en esta verde baranda!

Sobre el rostro del aljibe
se mecía la gitana.
Verde carne, pelo verde,
con ojos de fría plata.
Un carámbano de luna
la sostiene sobre el agua.
La noche se puso íntima
como una pequeña plaza.
Guardias civiles borrachos
en la puerta golpeaban.
Verde que te qinero verde.
Verde viento. Verdes ramas.
El barco sobre la mar.
Y el caballo en la montaña

Frederico Garcia Lorca, Franco’s victim

Apr 6, 2009 - 8:50 pm 107. JFM:

Very few Spanish monuments were destroyed by bombardments be it Nationalist or Republicans. But the destruction by left-wing militias was horrendous and it began the very day Alfonso XIII left the throne (1931).

For Guernica. Contemporary Basque press told of 80 killed. Later the number were grossly inflated for propaganda purposes. Hint: The Guernica tree (were Spanish kings swear to respect Basque liberties) wasn’t even damaged.

For Victor Hugo, I am surprised ypu don’t know that by the time he died Proust hadn’t still eaten his first madeleine so yours is not a valid answer to French literature hasn’t produced anything meaningful after “In search of the lost time”.

For American inculture given the incredible vulgarity in French TV and your own ignorance (cf Victor Hugo and Proust) plus the high number of world class american music formations when French tell of American inculture it reminds me of those French who after (Rommel’s words) “running to surrender” told of American cowardice.

For ‘true’ historians. I suppose you mean people like one of my history professors who told Red Army’s poor performance against Finland was part of Stalin’s devishly cunning plan to incite Germany to war. What I have detailed on submarines in Spain requires more common sesnse and knowledge about basic strategy and logistics than being an expert on ancient Greece.

For submarines. First the 1940 Spanish Navy still had submarines and had had them since before the civil war. So 1940 Spain _had_ submarine bases. Anyway you don’t need high tech installations just for refuelling and providing them with new torpedoes. It is nice if yolu can provide them with a bomb proof shelter but it is not a requirement (bomb shelters could have been funded by Germany), Geramn surface ships in France didn’t jhave them and they weren’t wiped out by the Allied air Forces. And that even in 1944 when these were much more powerful.

Apr 7, 2009 - 12:18 am 108. Marie Claude:

“For Victor Hugo, I am surprised ypu don’t know that by the time he died Proust hadn’t still eaten his first madeleine so yours is not a valid answer to French literature hasn’t produced anything meaningful after “In search of the lost time”.

it was you who quoted Victor Hugo once

” “Who got to bed early?” “Qui s’est couché de bonne heure?” would have brought you memories of “Longtemps je me suis couché de bonne heure” who is the most famous sentence in French littérature.”

well I suppose Louis Ferdinand Celine doesn’t appeal your attention

Apollinaire

Robert Desnos

Albert Camus

Henri de Montherlant

Marcel Aymé

Jules Romains

Max Jacob

Simenon

Romain Gary

Blaise Cendrars

René Char

Henri Michaux

Roland Barthes

Robert Merle

Lacan, Lévi-Strauss, Merlot-Ponty, Foucault, Baudrillard, Bachelard, Bataille, Deleuze, Jean Rostand….

Michel Houellebecq, Cioran, Perec…

not talking of the marxisants, of the nouveau roman…

I’m not a teacher of litterature, though I had a predilection for philosophie ( cycle secondaire, classe terminale philo : 1er prix, yes !!! )

For American inculture given the incredible vulgarity in French TV and your own ignorance (cf Victor Hugo and Proust)

mouarffff, uh, your tele reality shows are cultural LMAO and your info channels aren’t biased … plouf !!!

plus the high number of world class american music formations when French tell of American inculture

who said so ???? I suppose that you select the only negative persons

anyway, the average American knows less than the average French, true !!!

OK, we can’t compare ur production of pop rock musics, you win !!!

it reminds me of those French who after (Rommel’s words) “running to surrender” told of American cowardice.

yeah, you’re very good at bombing, at firing at with big calibers, but not in close-combats, where the French are much more courageous, uh, say, you don’t like close contacts, may-be some fear for virus and dirtyness LMAO

changes de disque, tu n’es pas drôle !

Apr 7, 2009 - 3:57 am 109. Marie Claude:

For ‘true’ historians. I suppose you mean people like one of my history professors who told Red Army’s poor performance against Finland was part of Stalin’s devishly cunning plan to incite Germany to war. What I have detailed on submarines in Spain requires more common sesnse and knowledge about basic strategy and logistics than being an expert on ancient Greece.

umm, are you lecturing me ? who’s arrogant there ?

For submarines. First the 1940 Spanish Navy still had submarines and had had them since before the civil war. So 1940 Spain _had_ submarine bases. Anyway you don’t need high tech installations just for refuelling and providing them with new torpedoes. It is nice if yolu can provide them with a bomb proof shelter but it is not a requirement (bomb shelters could have been funded by Germany), Geramn surface ships in France didn’t jhave them and they weren’t wiped out by the Allied air Forces. And that even in 1944 when these were much more powerful.

umm, Churchill with his good intentionned Roosevelt friend’s advices had already nuked what we had as fleat

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:36 am 110. JFM:

It is not all clear he was Franco’s victim. He was also Primo de Rivera’s (founder of Falange) personal friend, they frequently dined together. Secretly becuase thetr respective followers would have not liked it. And I can’t point you to a number of Spanish intellectuals killed by the Republicans.

Green how I like you green
green wind, green branches
The boat on the sea
and the horse on the mountain
with the shade on the belt,
she dreams at her balustrade
with eyes of cold silver
Green how I like you green
Under the gipsy moon
the things are looking at her
and she cannot look at them

Green how I like you green
Big frost stars
come with the fish of shade
who opens the path to sunrise
The fig tree rubs its wind
with the emery of its branches
and the mount, wild cat,
ruffles its sour agaves
But who will come? And which way?
She stays at her balustrade
Dreaming on the bitter sea

-Buddy, I want to change
my horse for your house
my steed for your mirror
my knife for your blanket
-Buddy I have been bleeding
since the Cabra passes
-If I could, my boy
this treaty would be sealed
but I am no longer I
and my house is no longer my house

(To be followed). It is my own (hasty) translation forgive me for its poor poetic quality. It is much better in Spanish and Lorca also resorts to some flamenco-inspired techniques who hard to translate and in fact, even for Spanish speakers from Latin America they would sound very weird. Anyway I invite you to look for a translation from a professional

The poem is about a Gipsy girl whose fiance seems to be a smuggler or bandit. After being mortally wounded he comes to the girl’s house, telling he wents to end his adventurous life but the girl’s father tells him that the girl has suicided from despair over the long wait. Drunk guardia civiles come looking for the bandit.

Apr 7, 2009 - 4:46 am 111. Marie Claude:

a very interesting video about Lorca

http://www.dailymotion.com/visited/search/%C3%A9crivain/video/x10vsf_federico-garcia-lorca

a few poems translated in english and french, you’re right translations loose Lorca original musicality

http://www.pierdelune.com/lorca.htm

Apr 7, 2009 - 8:06 am 112. Marie Claude:

“Canción del Jinete” Paco Ibanez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juKtuyShliU&NR=1

“Romance de la luna” Paco Ibanez

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qICLxonPoyA&feature=related

Apr 7, 2009 - 5:02 pm 113. Marie Claude:

In the mid-seventies, for example, as Spain’s Generalissimo Franco lay dying in Madrid, it was next to impossible to find any knowledgeable person who believed that Spain could become a democratic country without a replay of the bloody civil war of the 1930s. Spaniards were thoroughly convinced that they would do just that. “We kill the bulls, after all,” they liked to say; they were a violent people, and the Old Order would not go quietly into the dark night of fallen autocracies.

And yet, Spain accomplished a seemingly miraculous democratic revolution, paradoxically organized and commanded by icons of the Old Order: King Juan Carlos and a now-forgotten Franco loyalist, Adolfo Suarez. Portugal followed suit shortly thereafter, albeit with some dramatic moments and a few street clashes, but the new model–dictatorships could indeed fall, and democracies could be created, peacefully.

http://pajamasmedia.com/michaelledeen/2008/08/14/war-and-democracy/

Apr 8, 2009 - 2:18 pm 114. Marie Claude:

“On the other hand, Stanley Payne, in his entry on Franco in the 2004 Encyclopaedia Britannica states, ” Despite his sympathy for the Axis powers’ New Order, Franco at first declared Spanish neutrality in the conflict. His policy changed after the fall of France in June 1940, when he approached the German leader Hitler; Franco indicated his willingness to bring Spain into the war on Germany’s side in exchange for extensive German military and economic assistance and the cession to Spain of most of France’s territorial holdings in north-west Africa. Hitler was unable or unwilling to meet this price, and, after meeting with Franco at Hendaye, France, in October 1940, Hitler remarked that he would as soon have three or four teeth pulled out as go through another bargaining session like that again. Franco’s government thenceforth remained relatively sympathetic to the Axis powers, while carefully avoiding any direct diplomatic and military commitment to them. Spain’s return to a state of complete neutrality in 1943 came too late to gain favourable treatment from the ascendant Allies. Nevertheless, Franco’s wartime diplomacy, marked as it was by cold realism and careful timing, had kept his regime from being destroyed along with the Axis powers.”

Cher amoureux de la France, see what your beloved Franco had in mind,

http://wais.stanford.edu/ztopics/week020105/spain_050201_franco.htm

and, merci pour ton aide, je progresse dans mes recherches de la vérité

Apr 10, 2009 - 7:12 am 115. rdereiger:

Spain wants to win the Olympics. what do you expect? With so many muslims, it fisgures that brownnosing fundamentalists (by attacking Israel) may win them a vote of confidence because this so called ´court´ count on the Olympics jury to consider Spain less of a terrorist-risk. SImple yet extremely dangerous when you know what appeasing the enemy really comes to.

May 14, 2009 - 9:13 am 116. HP:

Many groups are trying to use Spanish courts= SPAIN IS SEPHARAD=HEBREW TERM FOR SPAIN AND HER YEWS =JEWS ARE SPANISH NATIONALS EVEN THAT THERE WAS AN INQUISITION IN SPAIN REGARDLESS OF THEIR LOCATION THRU THE EARTH TODAY. SOME PEOPLE IN PALESTINE HAVE SEPHARDIM ANCESTRY =SOME CONVERTED TO ISLAM AND SOME OF THE GROUPS THAT ARE ISLAMIC ARE TRYING TO USE SPAIN FOR THEIR TRIALS AND CASES ETC. SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN SPAIN ARE DECENDANTS OF SPANISH YEWS WHO CONVERTED TO CATHOLISM JUST LIKE KING FERDINAND HIMSELF BACK DURING 1492 WAS THE CHILD OF JEWISH PEOPLE HIMSELF AND HIS WIFE WAS A GENTILE. THEREFORE WHATEVER INTERNAL CONFLICT IN REGARDS TO SPAIN AND ISRAEL WHICH IS MAINLY MORE THAN 60 PERCENT SEPHADIM OR SPANISH YEWS ANYWAY SUCH ARE INTERNAL CONFLICTS BETWEEN THEM LIKE FAMILY AND REALLY IS NONE ELSE BUSINESS OTHER THAN THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. ALSO LET’S FACE THE FACT THAT THE PALESTINIAN TERROR INDIVIDUALS ARE VIOLATION THE LAW OF MOSES THEMSELVES BY MAKING THEMSELVES BOMBS AND KILLING THEMSELVES IN THE PROCESS OF THEIR CRIMES AGAINST THE YEWS. THIS SITUATION IS VERY DIFFICULT BUT IN REGARDS TO PALESTINIAN TERROR PEOPLE. LET’S ALLOW THEM TO TAKE ISRAEL TO COURT THRU HER SISTER SPAIN AND SEE WHAT SURPRISE COMES OUT OF THE COURTS. ISRAEL HAS THE RIGTH TO BE IN THE LAND AND BY THE WAY NOT ALL ISRAEL IS ON THE LAND TODAY = I MEAN PHYSICAL ISRAEL SINCE CHRISTIANS ARE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL ALL OVER THE WORLD. IF ALL THE YEWS RETURN BACK TO THE LAND FROM ALL THE NATIONS AND JOINT THE OTHER ONES BY TAKEN WHAT WAS GIVEN TO THEM BY THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. THE ARABS WILL HAVE TO GIVE UP LANDS THAT ARE NOT THEIR ANYWAY. SO BACK UP PEOPLE AND LEAVE MY PEOPLE ALONE. FIRE WILL DEVOUR OF THE ENEMIES OF THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. ARABS ARE COUSINS OF THE YEWS BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT ISRAEL DOES NOT RIGHT TO IT’S LANDS.

Jun 13, 2009 - 6:33 pm

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