Take Health Care Reform — Please!
Why should Republicans negotiate themselves into political oblivion?
Negotiations on health care reform are starting to remind me of a scene from one of my favorite movies.
In Paddy Chayevsky’s brilliant satire Network, The Howard Beale Show was negotiating with a group of radical left domestic terrorists called the “Ecumenical Liberation Army.” The network was trying to come to an agreement with the ELA to base a television show on their violent exploits and was discussing such arcane TV minutia as distribution charges, syndication, and subsidiary rights:
Laureen Hobbs: Don’t f**k with my distribution costs! I’m making a lousy two-fifteen per segment and I’m already deficiting twenty-five grand a week with Metro! I’m paying William Morris ten percent off the top, and I’m giving this turkey ten thou per segment, and another five to this fruitcake! And Helen, don’t start no s**t about a piece again! I’m paying Metro twenty-thousand for all foreign and Canadian distribution, and that’s after recoupment! The Communist Party’s not gonna see a nickel of this goddamn show until we go into syndication!
Helen Miggs: C’mon Laureen. The party’s in for seventy-five hundred a week of the production expenses.
Laureen Hobbs: I’m not giving this pseudoinsurrectionary sedentarian a piece of my show! I’m not giving him script approval, and I sure as s**t ain’t gotten him into my distribution charges!
Mary Ann Gifford: [screaming] You f**king fascist! Did you see the film we made of the San Marino jail breakout, demonstrating the rising up of the seminal prisoner class infrastructure?
Laureen Hobbs: You can blow the seminal prisoner class infrastructure out your ass! I’m not knockin’ down my goddamn distribution charges!
Great Ahmed Kahn: [fires off his gun through the ceiling] Man, give her the
F**KING overhead clause. Let’s get back to page twenty-two, number 5, small ‘a’. Subsidiary rights.
Now that’s what I call negotiations. It’s a pity nobody has the guts to fire a gunshot through the ceiling and get everyone’s attention. The cacophony of unintelligible noises on health care reform flying across the media landscape is making it impossible to follow what’s going on, much less understand what anyone else is trying to say.
From what I can gather, it appears that the Democrats may be on the verge of taking their ball and going home to mother — or Obama, as the case may be. This piece in the New York Times breathlessly announced that the majority party is sick and tired of trying to get the GOP to abandon their first principles and bargain away their souls. The Democrats will now seek to pass reform legislation without the minority.
Steve Benen looks upon this news as progress:
By all appearances, Democrats have gone above and beyond in trying to secure at least some Republican support for health care reform. GOP leaders have gotten a lot of face time at the White House. Dems have signaled a willingness to make all kinds of concessions. When Republicans insisted the majority slow down, the process slowed to a crawl. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) said in late July, “Working with the Republicans, one of the things that they asked for was to have more time. I don’t think it’s unreasonable.”
This week, however, we seem to have reached the tipping point. A variety of GOP leaders explained that Dems could drop the public option altogether, and it wouldn’t make any difference. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), who’s become increasingly belligerent about the very idea of reform, said he’s prepared to vote against his own compromise bill. Senate Minority Whip Jon Kyl (R-Ariz.) announced that Republicans will reject reform no matter what’s in the bill.
Ooh. “Face time at the White House.” Man, that Obama is a great compromiser. Benen might not know it, but I doubt whether too many Republicans are standing in line these days to get “face time at the White House.” And “signal[ing] a willingness to make all kinds of concessions” is not quite the same thing as making those concessions, is it? In fact, one would be hard-pressed — I mean you’d really have to put your thinking cap on and set a bit — to figure out exactly what “concessions” the Democrats have made to the GOP at all.
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92 Comments
1. Samizdat:My bet is that there will be some “moderate” Republicans who will come to rescue the Democrats from the predicament they have unilaterally created.
The bottom line, as the article mentions, is that the Democrats control the entire government with filibuster proof majorities. If their bill is such a righteous idea, they should just pass it and make it law. Why do they care what Republicans have to say about the legislation?
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:42 am 2. LeighB:Democrats–quit whining. You have the majorities you need so if you are not going to listen to the Republicans or the public, then get to work and hammer out something you can all agree on. The rest of us will get to have our say in 2010 and 2012.
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:44 am 3. Bob:The Democrats have the votes to pass whatever “reform” they want. Whether it includes the Public (Government) Option or any other specific feature is entirely beside the point. Once the feds get partial control of health care, that control will increase because that is the nature of government. As Reagan reminded us, there is nothing on earth closer to eternal life than a federal program. The ONLY REASON to get Republicans on board with health care is to keep it from being an issue in the Fall 2010 elections. Once John McCain signed on to the Stimulus (Porkulus) Bill, his fate was sealed. He could not use massive, out-of-control deficit spending as a meaningful campaign issue against the Democrats. He went down to defeat, as will the Republican Party if it votes for Obamacare in any form.
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:57 am 4. Anonymous:“In any compromise between good and evil it is only evil that can profit” — Ayn Rand.
Aug 21, 2009 - 4:05 am 5. Checkmate:There is nothing satirical about Obama ripping our country to shreds and there is no reason for the Republicans to negotiate with them about healthcare or anything else in their sicko socialist agenda.
The fixed values of our Constitution and the will of the people that elected them are all they need to stand firm, survive and win.
The problem is that the Republicans are playing the game for home field advantage just like the Democrats are; the difference being one wears blue sweat shirts and the other wears red ones.
Neither team is sticking to the rules mentioned above; which means the question becomes, “Which pile of crap stinks less than the other?” while no one is doing the job they are being paid by the tax payers to do.
Be that; politics as usual what they may, the bottom line message for members of Congress is this. Mr. Obama and the Democrat Congressional leadership have now managed to royally piss the people of America off.
It is now certain; and safe to say that from here on out any member of Congress, Republican or Democrat that supports anything proposed by Obama might as well pack their bags and get out of town. Their career is over.
Take it to the bank!
Aug 21, 2009 - 4:23 am 6. tommy gunn:Sir:
You cannot negotiate the HR 3200 bill. From that starting point all roads lead back to ruin. In simple terms from that starting point, you will always end up with socialized medicine run by the power mongers. Single payer or coop is the same trojan horse. Even if they call it a different name, you end up with massive government involvement in effect Nationalized Healthcare!!
The AMA, the major insurance companies, and the major PHARMA players sold their souls to Obamacare and in doing so sold the citizens of America down the crapper. Why should we work to give them a free market when they were ready to sell out without a fight. For payback what we need to do is give them what they really do NOT want!! Create free market for health care, de-regulate the market, get states out of their mandate madness, and force these insurers, doctors and big pharma types to REALLY compete. Salaries and bonuses will go down, premiums will go down for consumers, sensible policies will be on the market, service quality will go up. Keep in mind the insurers have already AGREED TO ELIMINATE PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS as a reason to deny coverage. This was given to Obamacare on a silver platter. Lets take this and run down a free market path to health care reform.
Tommy Gunn
Aug 21, 2009 - 4:42 am 7. rrbs:Aside from the obvious reasons, I wondered why the Democrat left is so hard over on the “public option” or “cooperatives”. At last I think I know. I saw I guy on TV, PBS I think, that explained it. See, my solution, for the 12 million that absolutely need health care but can’t afford it, would be to get them vouchers or something so they can buy insurance. To this guy, that would be a no-no because by spending those vouchers, shareholders of private insurance companies would benefit. This sounds at least reasonable on its face and makes some sense. However, not considered, is that it is OK for Obama’s cronies to make vast sums of money from ObamaCare and Cap and Trade legislation.
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:00 am 8. BC:The Republicans appear to be only concerned about knocking down the poll numbers for Obama — being part of any solution to any problem, not just health care, seems to be the furthest thing from their collective mind (what there is of one.)
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:39 am 9. tanstaafl:THE ‘STUPID’ STRATEGY
“Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I’m not sure about the former.”
~Albert Einstein
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:42 am 10. Kazooskibum:The Democrat Party is a criminal enterprise.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:01 am 11. vivo:“Why this touching concern about bipartisanship when they regularly trash the party for being in the pocket of insurers, for astroturfing violent, fascist mobs to protest at town hall meetings, and for being un-American racists who believe Obama is not of this earth and was born on the planet Kenya?”
There you said it!
Insurers ARE manipulating legislators.
Protesters are simply disruptive and malinformed.
Yes, our President was born in a far away galaxy . . .
GOP: Grand Old Party?
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:06 am 12. Ruebacca:The $800 billion stimulus package was almost worth it. As each month goes by it just shows the criminal incompetence of the Democrats. Now the Senate has to pass ‘Cap and trade’ and a single payer health system. The stimulus was for the Fat-Cats. Cap and trade is for the Greens and single payer is for the Marxists. If the Senate fails to pass either one there coalition collapses.
If they do pass ether one they lose the middle for a generation.
The economies in the tank, Obama will take your doctor away and you will need to buy carbon credits to burn wood on the street corner.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:20 am 13. Sebastian Shaw:I find it ironic that the Democrats have locked the Republicans out of the creation of either health care bills in the House & Senate, yet they now seek “bipartisanship” to cover their backsides when or if Big Government health care is made into law; the Democrats have the votes to pass any bill they want, yet the true source of contention is not the Republicans, but conservative Democrats who are up for re-election in 2010. The bills were created on stringent Leftist idealogical grounds. Therefore, I see the Democrats falling on the very sword the people outright reject. The Republicans should not get involved in anyway or they too might get voted out of office.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:36 am 14. tanstaafl:Ironic as well that this administration asks for reasoned debate, not, you know, the hysteria of those “angry, un-American mobs”, but there is little or nothing to debate, beyond the dense, convoluted language of HR3200.
And the President of the United States has been out there mocking Americans’ supposed mis-understanding of the dense,convoluted language of HR3200, which dense, convoluted language he himself, likely, hasn’t yet read.
Now Henry Waxman is demanding information from the internal books of private insurers, #’s for executive compensation and the like.
The Congress of the United States would be unable to point to any provision of the Constitution of the United States that grants it such kinds of powers, although lawyerly games would lead some of them (who still cared a little about desperately legitimizing their power grab) to mumble something about the “commerce clause”.
Astonishing, all of it.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:52 am 15. Bob Miller:There is a species of Republican in Congress that craves approval by Democrats and their media above all else.
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:04 am 16. ~Paules:The Republicans should do everything possible to prolong the process. Given Democratic incompetence, HR 3200 will die from a thousand gaffes. At this point not only do we want Obama to lose, but want him to look foolish in the process. What’s the old proverb about giving a man enough rope?
Yes, I know, my last sentence is obviously RACIST! Well, nanny-nanny, boo-boo.
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:18 am 17. Delia:Shhh! Gallup Reports That Conservatives Outnumber Libs in All 50 States; Media Plays Dumb
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:40 am 18. Moho:There’s absolutely no reason why he should compromise with Republicans on this issue. Specifically, they’ve said that they won’t compromise, there’s one good reason, lol. Then there’s this: the American people voted for majorities in the legislature and in executive for a reason. Its not because they want them to negotiate with the people who burned the country down to the ground over the last eight years. Its because they want them to do an end run around those very blockages. My only problem with Obama and other members of the congress is that they won’t pursue the mandate given them.
Have you all seen the latest Pew numbers? Yes, you’ve brought down Obama’s favorability with your inordinate truckload of bs and mendacity–though its still quite high. But this is the most important part. The Republican numbers haven’t budged!
In the same vein, the new poll finds favorable ratings of the Democratic Party have declined sharply since spring. Just 49% now say they have a favorable view of the Democratic Party. This compares with a 59% favorable rating for the party as recently as April and 62% shortly before Obama took office in January. Opinion of the Republican Party, which stands at 40%, has not changed all year.
This means that when push comes to shove, Independents will probably stay home rather than vote for a Republican. Do you all understand that? And there are still more Democrats, and they are still more popular to a considerable degree. You’ve only opened up a window for a libertarian challengers to pick up those votes–a possibility I welcome–and you’ve completely destroyed your party’s chances of being in the white house any time soon.
What you’ve done is show that your a party of infantile children. Thanks.
As for the angry mobs, I found this revealing:
The poll indicates that anger about the legislative proposals under consideration is not especially widespread. Just 18% say they would be angry if health care legislation proposed by the president and Congress were to pass; only half as many (9%) say they would be angry if the bills do not pass.
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:43 am 19. bibio44:“Why should Republicans negotiate themselves into political oblivion…”
…when candidates like Sarah Palin can do it for them.
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:55 am 20. Moho:Delia. I’m wondering why the article you linked to doesn’t have a link to the Gallup website, where you can see the poll for yourself.
Here it is:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/122333/political-ideology-conservative-label-prevails-south.aspx
If you like either/or dichotomies this poll isn’t going to do it for you because, although it shows that there are more self-professed conservatives over liberals, that conservatives and liberals are in the minority. When you add the number of moderates to liberals, conservatives are in the minority in nearly every state. When you combine this with the fact that approval ratings of Republicans have been flat, what you see is a pretty lopsided contest in favor of Democrats.
While Americans’ party identification and political ideology are related, they are by no means one and the same. For instance, while residents of Alabama and Mississippi are the most likely to be conservative ideologically, they are not the most Republican in their party affiliation. …..When considered with party identification, these ideology findings highlight the role that political moderates currently play in joining with liberals to give the Democratic Party its numerical advantage.
Guess what? YOu’re losing those moderates.
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:56 am 21. steveg:It would appear the marxist revolution has hit a speed bump.
Aug 21, 2009 - 7:58 am 22. venividivici:This means that when push comes to shove, Independents will probably stay home rather than vote for a Republican. Do you all understand that?
That’s one interpretation. Anecdotal evidence suggests that many people have been brought into the political process due to the perception that DC is out of control. That would argue that more people who’d previously been non-voters will become voters. The majority of this new voting bloc would swing toward the GOP, since they are the out party and the theory being that giving them more power would create better balance.
What you’ve done is show that your a party of infantile children. Thanks.
Again, that’s one interpretation. Fortunately for me, insults from you are like praise. Keep ‘em coming, please!
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:00 am 23. Steve P.:1. Samizdat: “The bottom line, as the article mentions, is that the Democrats control the entire government with filibuster proof majorities. If their bill is such a righteous idea, they should just pass it and make it law. Why do they care what Republicans have to say about the legislation?”
Probably because the Democrats wanted to give the Republicans an opportunity to either a) show that they are willing to engage in bipartisanship and compromise with the party in power to craft a bill, or b) expose themselves as being fundamentally obstructionist and against any kind of meaningful health care reform.
Clearly, the GOP went with b), so now the President can honestly say to the American people that they tried to craft a bipartisan bill but it failed because the GOP was unwilling to compromise. Therefore, health care reform will have to be passed without GOP support, just like Bush’s ridiculous tax cuts for the wealthy had to be passed without Dem support.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:04 am 24. elvis:“It’s a pity nobody has the guts to fire a gunshot through the ceiling and get everyone’s attention.” Ronald Reagan fired that shot!
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:05 am 25. venividivici:Obama Contradicts Himself
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203550604574360541357223298.html
In my own life, I have noticed that the times I contradict myself are the times when I am lying. It gets hard to keep the story straight.
What a lying sack this guy is. Thankfully, I never even considered voting for him once I found out about his ties to the Commie Frank Davis.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:07 am 26. Michael:And there you have it, “There’s absolutely no reason why he should compromise with Republicans”. The bipartisanship crap laid out by Obama was a farce and a sham just as most of his campaign promises where.
The left wants no input from conservatives. You can count on it that when they are in the minority (which they will be at some point in time) they will cry about the injustice of no bipartisanship. You can count that bipartisanship is dead now and forever after this joy of punishment that Nancy, Harry have been practicing.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:11 am 27. Moho:Veni
n my own life, I have noticed that the times I contradict myself are the times when I am lying.
I noticed that about you too…
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:12 am 28. tanstaafl:Barack Obama fixates on one notion that makes him “right”, about all things and in all circumstances…
“As I won, I have a rock solid mandate to impose my personal agenda on the United States of America”
He is unable or unwilling to grasp that his getting elected was not about that.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:40 am 29. Bender:Republicans are right not to push their own plans.
If they were to do that, they would convert this to a Democrat vs. Republican fight, rather than what it is now, a Democrat vs. the American people fight.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:55 am 30. Bender:Let President “I won” and his minions pass it themselves.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:58 am 31. cris:This is further prove that Obama Care has absolutely nothing to do with health care and is simple an egregious, ideological ploy, devised by sinister, disingenuous liberals aimed to forcefully usurp the most intimate of freedom, from the American citizenry. The owner of Whole Foods gives his 50,000 employees more benefits than any company in its genre. Furthermore, in 2007, CEO Mackey decided that he had enough money and reduced his salary to only $1 dollar per year! This is a greedy corporate bully? Simply for sharing his opinion and offering ideas for health care reform, contrary to the Government’s health Care plan, the shameful far left attacks him, rather then challenging him in the arena of ideas. Our economy is shedding jobs by the millions, and for President OBAMA choice not to defend this guy is an abomination and down right UN-American. If Whole Foods gets hurt from the Boycott, guess who gets screwed? The 50,000 grocery store employees!
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:04 am 32. Sallie:Republicans have offered SEVERAL ideas to the Dems about all of this and Pelosi has shot them down. I’m tired of the lies from pelosi and the likes. There is too much that is done in secret about all of congress. Arm twisting is part of politics. Right now the American public is speaking loudly that they want medical reform, but not what Obama is offering.
The Dems do not want to include the Repubs and want to cover that up with their rhetoric.. If you believe the Dems are trying to be bipartisan…then you are part of the problem. I usually voted Dems until obama…he was easy to see thru and gave us an uneasy feeling…it has all proven true.. So how do we vote now…well, we have to go with what we think is right, no matter the party
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:04 am 33. donttreadonme:moho,
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:25 am 34. donttreadonme:you follow a prophet that raped girls and most likely beheaded innocents while in a syphilitic rage, but other than that, your worldview ia A-OK.
moho,
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:29 am 35. venividivici:..this is your boss speaking – for the last time, put your laptop away, sweep the floor, and refill that damn slushy machine!!
27
As expected, a trite response with nearly zero referential content other than the author’s own unearned sense of moral and intellectual self-superiority. Please point out a place where I have contradicted myself.
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:56 am 36. venividivici:1
If their bill is such a righteous idea, they should just pass it and make it law. Why do they care what Republicans have to say about the legislation?”
Exactly. It’s like a guy at work coming up with an excellent new idea to take to the boss. He sure as heck isn’t going to spill the beans on the idea to the guy in the next cubicle. He’s going to want to take the idea to the boss by himself to get the credit. All of this gamesmanship and rhetoric assumes that we, as the audience for it, don’t understand basic human psychology.
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:59 am 37. Steve Sampson:Rick, why is the doctor holding a condom?
Aug 21, 2009 - 10:12 am 38. Eric:The GOP has a superb weapon in this battle with the Marxists in the Democrat party whose goal is to assume total power and control over our health care and in time our lives, the Constitution.
The Founders were brilliant in explicitly listing the powers of the Federal government rather than listing those the federal government is prohibited from doing. The Founders wisely left all powers not explicitly granted the Fed to the states. This serves as another check on government power by allowing citizens to freely move from one state to another. Don’t like the taxes or regulation in CA? Move to TX!
If the GOP wants to win this battle simply challenge the Democrats to provide the provision in the Constitution that allows the federal government to run a health care system. And yes Medicare and Medicaid are unconstitutional as well.
There is no escape from federal law and the Marxists like it that way. They can then make us all prisoners of their failed ideas and ideology. If they truly believed in their ideas then they would be in support of letting the states experiment. As Louis Brandeis said “states are the laboratories of democracy”.
“In questions of power, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution.” – Thomas Jefferson
Aug 21, 2009 - 10:28 am 39. Steve P.:33. donttreadonme: “moho, you follow a prophet that raped girls and most likely beheaded innocents while in a syphilitic rage, but other than that, your worldview ia A-OK.”
Really? I didn’t know that Moho listed to Rush Limbaugh.
Aug 21, 2009 - 10:28 am 40. Foxwood:Do you believe the Constitution is the rule of law? Do you believe in the original intent of our founding fathers? Do you want to reform Congress? If your answer is yes, we have to work together to make this happen.
http://animal-farm.us/change/constitution-project-575
Aug 21, 2009 - 10:47 am 41. venividivici:Really? I didn’t know that Moho listed to Rush Limbaugh.
Aw, man, the perfect place to drop in a Rush Limbaugh zinger and you screwed it up. I know you were salivating like Pavlov’s Dog at the opportunity, but even so, patience is a virtue in these situations.
I guess you can always claim you’re using the fourth definition here, although it is Archaic.
http://www.answers.com/topic/list
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:03 am 42. donttreadonme:Steve P., “listed,”
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:13 am 43. materialist:I can not provide clarity as to the effect of Limbaugh on moho’s balance; however, I can declare that you are an idiot.
“This means that when push comes to shove, Independents will probably stay home rather than vote for a Republican. Do you all understand that? And there are still more Democrats, and they are still more popular to a considerable degree.”
And this is why even NPR has the Republicans ahead on the generic congressional ballot? Because the independents prefer Democrats? Sure …
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:14 am 44. AThinkingPerson:Poor Obama. I can’t imagine why he doesn’t want FULL credit for the health insurance legislation? LOL! I love how he’s desperately trying to lure Republicans onto the sinking S.S. Obama.
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:15 am 45. Tom Degan:The other day, I received an interesting and very instructive e-mail from my brother Jeff who lives in France. He asked me to share it with the readers of my blog. I think I shall also share it with you
“As an American who has been living in Europe for most of the last 20 years, one who has visited doctors numerous times in four different countries, whose two children were brought into this world in European hospitals (France and England), who has himself spent a week in a public British hospital, and who underwent an operation in a private British clinic, I think I can say a thing or two about health care in Europe.
“Our out of pocket expenses for the births? Zero, even though in France my wife spent 5 days in the hospital after the birth, which is standard, by the way.
“During the three years we lived in England, we never once paid for medicine for our children. Children get drugs for free in the UK. Visits to the GP are free for everybody.
“My expenses for the week in the NHS hospital? Zero.
“The cost of the operation in the private clinic? Zero, it was covered by my work insurance, as was the post-op physical therapy I needed.
“In Western Europe you would never be forced to sell your home in order to pay for your medical bills, as happens all too often in America when catastrophic illness strikes and the insurance company decides that your condition was ‘pre-existing’.
“The quality of the care? Mostly good. French hospitals are excellent, even the food is decent. The food at the NHS hospital was beyond awful, but then again most English food is pretty bad (though they do have great Indian food). At night, they were understaffed, but I am guessing that, apart from that place where Dr. House works, most American hospitals are understaffed at night, too.
“In short, in the US, you pay more, get less, and die younger than we do in Europe. What part of that don’t you understand?
“My fellow Americans, you have nothing to fear except those who would use fear to keep you enslaved to the myth of the might of the American health care system.”
Jeff Degan
What can I tell you? The guy is a Communist. Not only does he live in France, he actually likes it there. An eternal shame to our family’s good name. Let us boil down his seven paragraphs to their juicy essentials, shall we?
HEALTH CARE IN THIS COUNTRY STINKS.
Here is (Excuse me, I meant to say, “Here was“) a golden opportunity for real reform and the idiotic Americans are screaming about socialism. Is it any wonder that we have become the laughingstock of the Western world?
http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com
Tom Degan
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:20 am 46. AThinkingPerson:Goshen, NY
Re Tom Degan: “Is it any wonder that we have become the laughingstock of the Western world?”
Congratulations Tom! You just earned your official Liberal Talking Points gold star!
The “golden Opportunity” for real reform evaporated the minute someone actually read the stinking heap of a bill. Lovely story though. Almost brought a tear to my conservative, tax-paying, has-a-job, takes care of myself, doesn’t want a government agent in my health care decisions eye.
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:29 am 47. Fantom:“8. BC:
The Republicans appear to be only concerned about knocking down the poll numbers for Obama — )”
The republicans are not concerned about that at all. Our Fearless Reader and his marxist cabal in the Congress is doing such a fine job knocking down their poll numbers, that all we Repubs have to do is sit back … point at the clowns, and laugh.
Soon enough the people who voted unwisely will correct their error and place adults back in charge.
2010 and 2012.. the end of an Error. lol
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:34 am 48. Moho:VenilAs expected, a trite response with nearly zero referential content other than the author’s own unearned sense of moral and intellectual self-superiority. Please point out a place where I have contradicted myself.
Well, I certainly wouldn’t have responded to such an obvious throw away line. You must have a guilty conscience.
Aug 21, 2009 - 11:51 am 49. BC:To Fantom: No. Remember when about 70% of the US public thought Hussein was personally involved with the 9/11 attacks? That’s my baseline for the number of easily suckered people in this country. Years later in 2007, when it should have been clear to even a complete fool that Hussein had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, another poll showed that 41% still believed it. That’s my baseline for the number of hopeless fools in this country. That’s also more than enough to make Michelle Malkin’s latest effort in malicious, nonsensical bitchiness become a bestseller.
Both groups represent the people the GOP, right wing/conservative pundits, news sources and blogs are targeting with their relentless BS about Obama and his plans, for health care or whatever.
Also whether you want to admit it or not, the adults came back in charge earlier this year in January, and after 8 years of frat boy stupidity, irresponsibilty and bad behavior, there is quite a big mess to clean up.
Aug 21, 2009 - 12:11 pm 50. venividivici:Well, I certainly wouldn’t have responded to such an obvious throw away line. You must have a guilty conscience.
Guiltier than some, less guilty than others.
Your decision to use a “throw away line” rather than address Obama’s health care plan contradictions (oh, I know, there’s no “plan” per se) and what they attempt to hide was actually the more interesting aspect of that exchange. Please, Obama, tell me again how the health care system is broken but I get to keep my plan! I bet he finds one skeptical-looking person in each audience (if they can slip in past the handlers keeping him in his bubble) and looks them right in the eye when he says that, so they’ll go home extra-convinced that the President’s plan is just swell.
Aug 21, 2009 - 12:28 pm 51. Moho:Simply, the contradictions you mention aren’t contradictions at all. Costs are rising, the system cannot be sustained. Its patently obvious and has been for years. That’s one. If a public option offers competition to insurers they will have to reduce their prices–in fact, the public option will create a free market effect for an insurance industry that works by cornering the market througout most of the country. There are no contradictions there. None.
I’ll tell you where I do see the contradiction, and you would too if you weren’t so wedded to fantastical story-telling instead of astute political analysis. Saying that the public option isn’t necessary is an enormous contradiction. He said exactly the opposite two months ago. Indeed, the only cost saving measures are inherent to the public option–nothing else will drive down costs or provide competition. I’ve said it before, there are plenty of reasons to oppose the plan as it has been presented–though there is some hope, given the fact that over 60 Democratic congressional representatives sent a letter to Obama insisting that they would not support a bill that did not contain the public option. Through a concerted fund raising campaign, 300,000 dollars was raised through Act blue for those candidates as a measure of support.
Face it. You’re here creating hierarchies of evil out of your belly button lint. You don’t know the first thing about the real issues inherent in the plan. And its not surprising, given that you seem to get so much of your info here.
Aug 21, 2009 - 12:38 pm 52. Moho:BC–>Nicely done.
Aug 21, 2009 - 12:58 pm 53. Anonymoses:46. AThinkingPerson: “Almost brought a tear to my conservative, tax-paying, has-a-job, takes care of myself, doesn’t want a government agent in my health care decisions eye.
…says the guy who wants Roe v. Wade overturned so that government agents can make health care decisions for pregnant women.
Duuuurrrrrrrrr.
Aug 21, 2009 - 1:18 pm 54. Fantom:“49. BC:”
Have you read every document recovered from Iraq? No, then you just believe that Hussein had no connection.. not just to 9-11 directly but the larger issue of moslem terror. Which of course makes the team of ignorant fool.
I would have to say that anyone believing that Hussein (the one in Iraq, not the Whitehouse) was not involved with funding moslem terror is akin to those who believe Al Capone was only guilty of tax evasion. That is to say they would be total fools.
Or to paraphrase PT Barnum…”There is a democrat born every minute”
Aug 21, 2009 - 1:54 pm 55. Dr.Joe:Listen up guys. I’ve been doing this for thirty years. Dealing with endless government (Medicare,Medicaid) and third pary payers (insurance co.s) bullshit. I’ve discussed this with my colleagues….young, older and old. Here’s the deal. Public Option, no tort reform, fantastic new bureaucracy of illiterates (if you don’t believe me, just call the Social Security help line……..
Just step into your local Social Security office…it’s like the bar scene in Star Wars. The level of incompetence is awesome, or horrifying depending on your needs.) Anyhow, here’s the consensus. We’re outa here. You want medicine on the cheap. Go for it. My pleasure. Tip to the interested: learn to speak Swahili. Ciao.
fondly, Dr. Joe
Aug 21, 2009 - 2:28 pm 56. AThinkingPerson:Re #53 Anonymoses: I want Roe V. Wade overturned so that govt. agents can make health care decisions for pregnant women? Where did you get that from my post (#46). Again, another loony liberal making generalized assumptions based on their daily reading of the Huffington Post and the Dollar Store sale ads.
Should we also assume you’re for Obama’s death panels? Makes just about as much sense.
Aug 21, 2009 - 2:35 pm 57. Moho:Really, anonymoses. Freedom of choice for women is where this whole freedom of choice thing ends for this crowd.
Aug 21, 2009 - 2:36 pm 58. Bilgeman:Mr. Moran:
“But perhaps they could do so without whining about how the GOP is somehow thwarting their plans by not signing up for a one-way trip to political oblivion. Negotiating one’s own demise is not smart politics — even for a party that insists on demonstrating a willingness to shoot itself in the foot at every possible opportunity.”
As you well know, this debate isn’t at all about what the GOP is or is not doing. Since they don’t have the numbers, they are basically irrelevant.
What is really going on is that the saner “Blue Dog” Democrats, (aka: “those who are electorally vulnerable”), have balked at ObamaCare, and don’t want to face their voters.
The Alleged Hawaiian and his allies are using the GOP as a two-fold cudgel…to whip up their far Left mouthbreathers who reflexively blame the Republicans for EVERYTHING and ANYTHING, and to use these same fruitcakes to put “Left English” on the “Blue Dogs”.
The fact is that the GOP is playing this one exactly right. Let the Democrats ram this through entirely on their own…and then they own the entire dog’s breakfast that it inevitably becomes.
The realization has them so terrified on Capitol Hill that they are literally soiling themselves with fear of the responsibility they would bear.
I must say, the Fellow Who Claims to Have Been Born In Hawaii has done some extraordinary things. I can’t recall when the music that will have to be faced in the mid-terms is so clearly audible only 7 months into his term.
Can’t wait to see what “clunkers” he wants to pay “cash” for NEXT year!
Aug 21, 2009 - 2:44 pm 59. Calvin Ball:DNFTT
Aug 21, 2009 - 2:50 pm 60. AThinkingPerson:Oh look everyone Moho is making friends with his empty headed twin Anonymoses! How sweet. Is there a secret kook-aid handshake now or do you just compare your unemployment checks? How does this whole liberal club work? Will there be government cheese at the club house next? So many questions. Unicorn rides?
Please, do us a favor you two and tell us more about how we think and what we believe. You seem to be the resident experts on all things conservative.
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:02 pm 61. John "birther" Samford:The FIRST step in problem solving is figuring out just what the problem is. Neither side has taken that first step, which causes anyone rational to question their solutions.
With health care the problem is scare resources. It is NOT a lack of Health insurance. That is a symptom. Right now the marketplace decides who gets some of those scarece resources.
Socialists want to change that so the Government makes the decision on who gets access to those scarce resources. So the debate isn’t over fixing the problem, but control of resources. No matter who wins, the problem won’t be solved.
A LOT of money ( belonga taxpayer) will be spent on this non-solution.
The solution is increasing those resources. Supply and Demand. Socialists think Supply and Demand is a fable created by Capitalists, so they refuse to see the problem as a lack of resources.
Increasing those resources is going to be difficult. For the moment, increasing the number of Medical personal will help. So would the government picking up the malpractice insurance for Doctors. In the long term, what is needed is automation of the Medical field. Just the Feds are funding research into Alternate fuels, they need to fund research into automated medicine. Create a machine that will perform the initial examination of a patient. That will allow human doctors more time to deal with the issues uncovered by the Auto-Doc. That is at least 20 years in the future, IF socialized medicine is defeated.
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:05 pm 62. BC:It is no accident that most medical advances come from America, where our capitalistic medical system produces the money needed for research and the incentive to do that research.
One of the points not mentioned in the current debate is that advances in Medical science will come to a halt under Socialized medicine. It always has in the past, no reason to think it won’t in the future. Look at England. Until they adopted Socialized medicine, they were world class in Medical Science. Since then Nada, Zip, Zilch.
To Fantom: chances are pretty good that I’ve researched a bit more than you or your buddies — and most especially that lying ass faker, Stephen F. Hayes — into what real evidence there was and wasn’t for WMD’s and al-Qaeda connections. The short answer is diddly and squat. While there was some genuine ignorance about what Hussein was really up to before 9/11, by the time Bush ordered the “preemptive” invasion, pretty much all of the evidence and intel gathered in the meantime was going against his claims. But he invaded anyway. Those “recovered” documents you referred to added nothing to what the CIA and others already knew: there was a couple of low level meetings between Hussein’s people and al-Qaeda’s people back in the early to mid-90’s, but nothing came of them. End of story. Those of you claiming that even these represent “ties” are idiots — it’s like saying that you have “ties” to some homeless guy you ran into a few times 15-20 yrs ago, who had asked you for a handout, but you had refused. The WMD’s? Aside from a few random, deteriorated leftovers from the Iran-Iraq war, nobody was finding them, nobody was detecting them, not the UN inspectors, not any of the US spy agancies, not US special forces. Nobody. There was also no indication that they were moved to Syria or anyplace else.
And the fallback excuse of using UN sanctions was cynical and laughable — why not invade Israel if you’re going to invade a country based on UN sanctions?
Hope this clarifies.
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:06 pm 63. Fantom:“62. BC:
To Fantom: chances are pretty good that I’ve researched a bit more than you or your buddies —
Hope this clarifies.”
It certainly does clarify. PT was right.
Thank you for the insight as to the total awesomeness of your research….. snicker.
We could get into a host of things, like this stuff which didn’t exist either. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/
But this is not the thread to do this. However it does show what kind of fool some are…. Ok folks… move along, just a birthday party for some liberal nutcase, yeah, that is a yelowcake “… mover along, nothing to see here.
Aug 21, 2009 - 3:38 pm 64. Samizdat:Don’t Tread On Me @ 34,
Thank you for the best laugh I’ve had today. Perfect!
Aug 21, 2009 - 4:27 pm 65. dck:So, why do you think the Democrats thought Republicans might enrage their base and commit political suicide to help out Democrats?
Could it be a recent history of “bipartisan” and “maverick” behavior of exactly that sort by Republicans?
With McCain, Graham, Snow, Spector, and less high-profile examples in the House (if one can describe one snake as having a lower profile than another) the Democrats would seem to be just following past experience.
Feed an Alligator scraps from your back porch and the Alligator will be back. With no scraps available this time, do you wonder what the Alligator might be thinking?
With a huge electoral groundswell rolling up for Republicans in 2010, and the up-for-reelection surfers paddling vigorously to position themselves for the expected wave, I’d bet you could find a plethora of bullet holes in the ceilings of Republican conference rooms as the “new” message goes out: “Mess up the Party’s chances for 2010 and you’re road kill–No exceptions.”
None of this is statesmanship, which is what we need; it’s just smarter politics. I want lasting solutions: Term limits; balanced budget; an end to the income tax; no “careers” in Washington; reaffirm the 10th Amendment; redistribute power back to the states; reform the “two-party” system; cut bureaucracy; institute citizen advocacy agencies to serve the Public in dealings with bureaucracy.
And find out what’s really going on with “fusion Centers,” NLECTC transfers of high technology to police, and Homeland Security seeing “Right Wing” terrorists among anyone fed up with Government intrusion. Are any responsible adults keeping an eye on this?
Send Joe the Plumber to Washington, for one term. He could at least get the toilets flushing.
Aug 21, 2009 - 4:51 pm 66. Anonymous:Costs are rising, the system cannot be sustained.
This is a non sequitur. Costs are rising for a variety of reasons, but insurance profits are not one of them. Profit margins in the industry are holding steady. I remember a liberal think tank came out with some breathless press release about insurance industry profits and I did the math and it worked out to about $50/policyholder. In fact, given their investment portfolio losses, profits were down in 2008. Costs are also rising because new treatments are more expensive. That has nothing to do with insurers or insurance. One of the few places you can make an argument about insurers adding real costs is in the cost of administration of the various insurance forms that providers need to complete.
If a public option offers competition to insurers they will have to reduce their prices–in fact, the public option will create a free market effect for an insurance industry that works by cornering the market througout most of the country.
I think you have the causality of premium increases backwards. Providers raise prices for services and insurers have to raise premium levels to cover claims for those services. This would be similar to auto insurance premium prices going up because mechanics raised their hourly rates.
Also, if the issue is a lack of competition in the health insurance market (and, yes, the HHI for this industry does indicate less competition than other forms of insurance), then get the FTC to investigate what is happening. The government should not compete in the economy, it should be a referee.
You don’t know the first thing about the real issues inherent in the plan. And its not surprising, given that you seem to get so much of your info here.
On the contrary, I see very clearly what the issues are. That you are chasing phantom insurance menaces in your own collective mind on the Left and don’t see that the main driver of higher costs is increased quality is not my problem. Sounds like you’re getting your info from the same fever swamps that gave us the soon to be bankrupt Medicare program. Thanks, but no thanks.
Aug 21, 2009 - 4:56 pm 67. venividivici:51
Costs are rising for a variety of reasons. If it was insurance companies simply jacking up their premium levels without corresponding payouts in claims, we’d see their profit margins rising. We don’t. Insurers are middle-men and middle-men are typically price-takers not price-setters. Yes, the industry is less competitive than other segments of the insurance industry, but that is a matter for the FTC and private capital deciding to enter to compete, not an invitation for the government to become a player in the industry.
I see the issues in the plan very clearly. The administration’s endgame is a single-payer system. If that comes to pass, it will make innovation in the medical field that much more difficult, because the single-payer will have so much negotiating leverage that innovators will have a hard time recouping their investments on a risk-adjusted basis.
Sounds like you’re getting your information from the same fever swamps that gave us the soon to be bankrupt Medicare system. I’ll forgive myself for choosing to look elsewhere for analysis.
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:06 pm 68. venividivici:Nice list of the things they think we are stupid enough to believe. If I were capable of being insulted by people I have absolutely no respect for, I’d be insulted.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZWQ3Njk0OWNlZGNhZDVmOTFiNjJmYTRkNjMxNWJjYjI=
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:10 pm 69. seguin:#53
So allowing the killing of an unborn child is now a health care choice for a pregnant woman? Yeah, it’s just like freezing off a wart to you people, ain’t it?
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:11 pm 70. Samizdat:As the lefties go whistling by the graveyard, support for Obamacare is undergoing some serious dry up. The Democrat leaders are increasingly at odds with each other, witness Pelosi vs Sebelius. Meanwhile, independents are thumbs down on HB3200 and are strongly disaproving of the Dems. Take a look at Charlie Cook’s report on Politico.
This is a Democrat vs Democrat problem. It has been created exclusively by Democrats who proposed and have attempted to ram through this bill which was exclusively drafted by Democrats. There are no Republican fingerprints on it. The MSM is controled by Democrat worshiping corporations. The liberals have no one to blame but themselves for their spectacular miscalculation and over reach.
Democrats have managed to make Republicans relevant, something the Republicans couldn’t accomplish due the their fecklessness and tendency to want to be Democrat lite. The liberal Dems, who control the levers of power, remind me of Icarus. It appears they are likely to meet the same fate.
They were dealt a full house, aces over kings, and decided to toss the kings in search of the 4th ace. Can you believe it?
How do you think Cap and Tax is going to do when that comes up for a vote in October?
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:40 pm 71. Samizdat:I forgot to add to my previous post that it is all Bush’s fault that Obamacare is in such a pickle. My mistake.
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:57 pm 72. Boyd:Ever wonder what prompts people to spend so much of their time sabotaging discussion here?. The answer is pretty clear. This site is a threat and that is why the increasing infestation of trolls.
“a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” Wikipedia
Disruption is what the BCs, Vivos, Mohos and jharps are about. They are fighting a war. An information war as part of the Lefts take-no-prisoners takeover of this Country. While it can be fun to fan the flames here just keep in mind the amount of time they devote to destroying this forum shows just how dead serious they are about fighting and wining this war and what it will mean to lose.
Aug 21, 2009 - 5:58 pm 73. Fantom:“69. seguin:”
Exactly , in another day they would have treated slavery as a “property rights” issue.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:28 pm 74. myth buster:37. That’s a lollipop.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:31 pm 75. Moho:Veni–>
Nice list of the things they think we are stupid enough to believe.
You have no one to blame but yourself. Your movement has set the bar lower than anyone could have imagined. There’s just about nothing I wouldn’t expect you to believe if it came out of the mouth of one of your political or propaganda leaders.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:44 pm 76. Samizdat:Boyd at # 72,
That is what these deadenders are doing. They will lie and misrepresent to gain their object, the results are the only thing that matter. You catch them in a bald faced lie and they don’t blanche, it’s part of the Alinskyite playbook. They whine if you won’t come out and play. There’s a website for them, it’s called Daily KOS.
I don’t bother acknowledging the Marxists anymore, they can frolic with each other. When I caught one of them in an out right lie about 10 days ago I decided that was enough. Time to ignore the fraud.
Notice they are ineffective at what they do. Their beloved Obamacare is in serious trouble despite complete control of the government and the MSM. They are unconvicing in their deception. The king making independents have caught on.
Aug 21, 2009 - 6:51 pm 77. BC:To Fantom: just give it up — apparently you don’t bother to even read your own links. From that MSN (actually AP) article: “Israeli warplanes bombed a reactor project at the site [Tuwaitha, an old nuclear research facility] in 1981. Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said.”
See also this. You know, you really should be mad at Bush, his people, and all his supporters for fooling you so badly like that.
Aug 21, 2009 - 8:42 pm 78. vivo:72. Boyd:
“Ever wonder what prompts people to spend so much of their time sabotaging discussion here?.”
What are you talking about? With a few exceptions, there is NO discussion here. Most righties just ramble express an opinion, but there is no discussion.
You just hate real independent minds.
Only your testosterone-charged brain will make you think this is a war. Take it easy, I’m not predatory.
Stop and smell the flowers!
Aug 21, 2009 - 9:28 pm 79. Boyd:vivo:
Like a shave-and-a-haircut knock to Roger Rabbit, it was a sure thing my comment could be counted on to provoke you to confirm my point. Thank You.
Aug 22, 2009 - 6:27 am 80. Ryan:Is astroturfing American, or the furthest thing from it? This clip explains both sides of the healthcare debate. http://www.newsy.com/videos/language_of_the_healthcare_debate
Aug 22, 2009 - 6:41 am 81. Boyd:Ever wonder what prompts people to spend so much of their time sabotaging discussion here? The answer is pretty clear. This site is a threat and that is why the increasing infestation of trolls.
“a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional or disciplinary response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.” Wikipedia
Disruption is what the BCs, Vivos, Mohos and jharps are about. They are fighting a war. An information war as part of the Lefts take-no-prisoners takeover of this Country. While it can be fun to fan the flames here just keep in mind the amount of time they devote to destroying this forum shows just how dead serious they are about fighting and wining this war and what it will mean to lose.
Like a shave-and-a-haircut knock to Roger Rabbit, it was a sure thing my comment could be counted on to provoke you to make my point. Thank You.
Verify
Chaos
Alinsky: “Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions.”
The target is this forum and the minds that relate and organize here. The method, as you have seen, is insult and creating chaos by being as hurtful as possible. The idea is to beat back any opposition to the rule of the Left for the Left. Just remain aware of this when you post responses to nonsense from these people. They simply intend to stop freedom and liberty in its tracks by making communication impossible.
Aug 22, 2009 - 6:43 am 82. gracie:81..your post is totally true!!!
One such troll recently said that without his discourse on this site..there would be no site… I asked him to try his theory out. To date he is the most prolefic peddlers of mean, nasty, outdated facts, off subject rhetoric on PJM…
The more we repond, the more vomit flows from their mouths…
I would like to see Alinsky’s methods used for the betterment of mankind instead of herding and containing.
Health care needs to be “revamped”…however, Obama’s people are stuffing their idea of right and wrong down our throats.
Aug 22, 2009 - 9:02 am 83. Chuck L:Eventually a handful of Republicans will sell out and give the Demoncrats what they want which is the first step on the path to fully nationalized health care.
In every subsequent election the Democrats will turn on the Republicans, all of them, and shout “These are the evil people who want to take away your health care if they are elected!” Enough voters will believe this that the Democrats are thereby handed a permanent majority in Congress, at least.
Aug 22, 2009 - 10:57 am 84. paul_unalaska:BC – ‘and after 8 years of frat boy stupidity, irresponsibility and bad behavior..’
BC, those 8 years are the Democratic Party’s fault. The same reason for the Republicans in the ‘08 election. On the ticket, ‘Conservative’ McCain – sure..
The Democratic ticket in ‘04 was John Kerry. Kerry! The guy had a lower GPA than Bush, is nearly as gaffetastic as Biden and was lucky he wasn’t fragged in Vietnam.
Comment #45, Mr. Degan, the Wall Street Journal had this article recently regarding France’ health care system, flirting with other options due to it going from a public service to a lucrative business.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html
Aug 22, 2009 - 2:48 pm 85. Anonymous:81. Boyd:
82. gracie:
The typical exclusive club mentality.
You want to shut down the ‘fluff’? Start charging a large monthly fee, use secret passwords and your paradise will be all yours.
Ever heard of dinosaurs?
Aug 22, 2009 - 4:53 pm 86. Moho:The guy had a lower GPA than Bush, is nearly as gaffetastic as Biden and was lucky he wasn’t fragged in Vietnam.
Not as lucky as Bush, scoring that sweet National Guard gig, right? Although, come to think of it, he’s lucky he wasn’t fragged in Texas.
Aug 22, 2009 - 5:31 pm 87. vivo:81. Boyd:
“Ever wonder what prompts people to spend so much of their time sabotaging discussion here?”
I just remembered why I come here:
it’s like being in the galactic bar of Star Wars: the weird characters, gunslingers, slimy beings, tiny brains, very large brains, wild eye looks, drunks, and some very nice people.
Take your pick.
Aug 23, 2009 - 3:54 am 88. John "birther" Samford:“chances are pretty good that I’ve researched a bit more than you or your buddies — and most especially that lying ass faker, Stephen F. Hayes — into what real evidence there was and wasn’t for WMD’s and al-Qaeda connections. The short answer is diddly and squat.”
BC, you didn’t do much of either. WMD in the form of Sarin was moved out of Iraq to Syria in January of ‘03. There are sworn afidavits from the General in charge of moving it as well as the guys that did the moving. ALL would stand up in a court of law.
As far as Saddam helping AQ, that depends on what you mean by help. He provided money, papers (Passports, credit cards, Drivers licenses, etc.) and a training base for AQ. Did he know details of the WTC attack? Nobody knows, that information went to the grave with him. He did know that AQ was planning an attack on the USA. Remember Saddam is the guy that planned an assassination of Bush the Elder.
I’m not going to post URL’s since you wouldn’t bother to read them. They prove your fable to be wrong. Iraq was a good operation in the GWOT, it was just poorly executed. That can be laid at the feet of Bremmer and the State Department. President Bush also, since he made the decision to get the DOS involved.
Aug 23, 2009 - 9:13 pm 89. james:We can count on the republicans to do the wrong thing at the end of the day. They just can’t get over the idea that if they simply modify the radical leftism of the democrats just a bit then they’ll get invited to Sally Quinn’s barbecues and the other kids at Sidwell Friends won’t say nasty things to their kids.
Aug 24, 2009 - 9:03 am 90. JED:I would love to be wrong, but I’m afraid I’m not.
Here is a compromise position for insurance medical care reform: Deregulate the insurance industries so that they can complete by offering policies out of the state regulations. Then, wait 6 months with a sunset clause to see if it works to lower premiums. If good, go, if not, stop. Spend-a-holics could take a chapter from the AA and go one step at a time.
Aug 24, 2009 - 9:17 am 91. JED:The 4 or 5 current bills pending have massive costs, are ambigious in interpretation, and throw the whole kitchen sink into launching an experimental program with no end. This administration’s revolutionary approach to reform could negotiate all of us into oblivion.
That would be compete not complete. If the fed decided to compete, how does it work that they can offer policies across state lines unfairly, while paying with taxes and not profits?
Aug 24, 2009 - 9:21 am 92. gringo:MoHo:
Are you pissed because your HMO doesn’t cover thorazine?
Aug 24, 2009 - 2:50 pm