Pajamas Media

96 Comments

1. DoubleTapper:

Here in Israel, there is no stigma on weapons.

Unlike Fort Hood, all of our servicemen and women are armed at all times.
Terrorist find no soft targets in Israel and are often put down
before they have the opportunity to do any damage..
In addition, Terror attacks are stopped by armed civilians, teachers, bus drivers and EMT’s.
Muslim extremest, deranged postal worker, nut job with mental issues, here in Israel we don’t discriminate. They all get what they deserve.
DoubleTapper
DoubleTapper@gmail.com
DoubleTapper, blogging on Guns Politics Defense from Israel

Nov 9, 2009 - 1:17 am 2. RAH:

This recalls the discussions about the best caliber for stopping a person. Probably the best account I have read is from a person who worked in Atlanta’s mortuary. He said the dead the number of rounds that killed with 9mm was 8 or more and those shot by .357 were three or less. Since bullets trajectory in body get deflected by bone it is often hard to determine the exact round that was fatal.

I am not an expert but shot placement is better than caliber. The .45 ACP has the reputation of stopping someone just from the shock. The .22 rimfire is small but fatal if place accurately.

Not many people carry 100 rounds for defensive purposes. This murder did not pan on survival which makes him a suicide killer.

It is a shame that we allowed a disloyal soldier to remain to kill his own.

I hop the military starts to consider the concerns about troops that express disloyalty and how that is a danger. This man was the worst person to deal with PTSD yet that was his job.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:23 am 3. Marsh:

Good points. The ignorance of islamofacists and low life gang members saves a lot of lives all around the world. They choose their gear and tactics based on looks and hype. In between cussing them out and wishing to put them down personally I have to laugh at just how stupid they are.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:49 am 4. Marsh:

And as far as the leftist marxist media goes and their vast ignorance of self-defense tools like guns, this vid below sums up the situation pretty well I thought:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiwI5q1GnyA

That’s right. They can’t even tell the difference between a bullet that’s been fired or not…

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:55 am 5. Old Soldier:

The pistol is pretty much irrelevant as a battlefield weapon. If you want to kill someone, get yourself a large caliber rifle or shotgun. The .45 is useless against armor so FN is selling basically a .22 pistol that might penetrate cheap armor at close range – with the right ammo.

That said, it is an indictment of our military leadership that they do not trust our soldiers or officers with weapons on base. It seems like the fighters and patriots are filtered out of the officer corp prior to promotion to general officer – only PC politicians make it beyond Colonel.

Prior to WWII, enlisted Marines had their Springfields wherever they went. If they wanted to put in some extra range-time, they bought ammo at the PX or a hardware store and went to the range to compete against each other. Ask the surviving Germans from Bellau Woods how that worked.

I never had ammo on base except at the range or while guarding an armory. Otherwise, bases are the biggest gun-free zones in the country.

At the minimum, our officers and NCO’s should be allowed to carry a sidearm on base.

Nov 9, 2009 - 4:58 am 6. eon:

The 5.7 x 28m/m round is in fact a specialized round for a specialized purpose; that is, defeating soft body armor. It does so by firing a “tiny bullet at warp speed”, to quote Tom Clancy, that is intended to slip through the weave of ballistic nylon to the person wearing same.

In this respect, the 5.7 x 28m/m is a Western analogue of the 5.45 x 18m/m Soviet round for the compact PSM automatic pistol used by the FRS bodyguard detail (the Clancy quote applies to this weapon, BTW). In terms of actual muzzle energy (the primary index of “stopping power”), the 5.7 x 28m/m is roughly 10% more powerful than the .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire (.22WMF), a round intended primarily for small-game hunting and pest control. It is significantly less powerful (in terms of foot-pounds) than the standard 9 x 19m/m (9mm Parabellum/Luger/NATO) round that is the single most common pistol round on earth other than the .22 Long Rifle. (Both the 5.7 and 9m/m are considerably less powerful than the .357 Magnum, BTW.)

The 5.7/28 was originally conceived for the FN P-90 “carbine”, a Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) intended for troops not normally involved in combat (transport, engineers, etc.) who rarely need a weapon, but when they do, need something easier to hit with than a pistol; the World War Two U.S. .30 cal M-1 Carbine had a similar origin (it was often called “the cooks’ rifle” for this reason). Its armor-defeating capabilities were due to the commonality of body armor in modern military use. The round’s adaptation to the Five-seveN pistol was due to European police agencies desire for a pistol that was also capable of defeating body armor in Counter-Terrorist Warfare (CTW) situations. (The typical “street cop” in, say, Paris, France, has amuch higher chance of finding himself in the middle of a terrorist attack than the average NYPD or LAPD officer, due to local factors.)

The muzzle energy (or rather, lack of same)of the cartridge (which is lower in the 3.5″ barreled pistol than in the 14″ barreled “carbine”) was not an issue, simply because European police agencies rarely think in terms of “stopping power”. You’d be amazed how many issued 7.65 x 17m/m Browning, aka .32 ACP, pistols to patrol officers until quite recently. The Japanese National Police, incidentally, still do. (American police officers, of course, have a very different view of this matter.)

What this means in real terms is that the goblin at Fort Hood was shooting people with the less powerful, and less effective, of his two weapons, apparently simply because he could generate a higher volume of fire with it. He also apparently was not taking the time to aim, but was simply yanking the trigger as fast as he could. (The term “spray and pray” comes to mind, as the late Col. Jeff Cooper would say.)

We should all be thankful that he was not knowledgeable enough about weaponry (or possibly was too busy going juramentado’ in his own mind) to make effective use of the far more effective, and lethal, weapon in his other hand, the .357 Magnum revolver. The sort formerly the most common sidearm of…American police officers.

P.S. The lack of effectiveness of the .38 ACP/Super and .30 Mauser (7.62 Tokarev) is a function of poor bullet design- both are usually loaded with full-metal-jacket round-nosed (FMJRN) ammunition. They tend to over-penetrate and expend their formidable (370 foot-pounds plus each) energy on the landscape behind the target. It’s interesting to note that a Remington Arms Company catalog in my collection advertises soft-point expanding bullets in both calibers, that will expand and “dump” their energy in the target itself, and rarely exit the target’s back.

The catalog in question, No. 107, was published in 1923. Our forebears apparently knew a bit more about what works in a real life-threatening situation than our theoreticians of today, it seems.

clear ether

eon

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:51 am 7. Kerry:

If Hasan’s pistol is a cop killer, what is Officer Munley’s pistol…? Heh. (Klingon, “Barak! Rhymes with Ptak!”)

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:56 am 8. Jack:

Once we start reacting to Islamic violence appropriately, I hope that we start to deal with those who minimize it in the MSM.

Chris Mathews et al. deserve to suffer for the pass they are constantly giving Muslims.

Nov 9, 2009 - 6:05 am 9. John "birther" Samford:

Marsh that was a hoot! Thanks. Isn’t 5,7mm .25 caliber? The Rogue Major must have been one ‘ell of a good shot.
Why the AP Bullet thingie by the MSM? Were any of the soldiers wearing their Ninja Turtle suits? If they weren’t wearing body armor, why would an AP round make any difference?

Nov 9, 2009 - 6:29 am 10. gb_in_tx:

It occurs to me that if the FN Five SeveN with its proprietary 5.7×28mm ammo is supposed to be some sort of magic “cop killer”, then we’ve just had a demonstration that it is deficient in that role. Thankfully. Our heroic cop took 3 (poorly placed) rounds of 5.7×28mm and, lo and behold, it didn’t just automatically kill her. Some “cop killer” it turned out to be. But, 4 (much better placed) rounds of 9×19mm into the torso put the perp down. Chances are, it didn’t actually take that many rounds to do the job but I’m not going to criticize her for continuing to shoot until the threat was neutralized. She did well.

Nov 9, 2009 - 6:54 am 11. moho:

It may seem counterintuitive to many, but the high velocities that enable the Five-seveN’s .22 bullet to drive through soft body armor are thought to be mostly wasted on unarmored targets.

I think you should spread this far and wide. Its probably the most effective ad for gun regulation I’ve ever seen. Anyone who thinks this way shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:21 am 12. Earl T:

What weapon and what caliber DID the Officer use? Seems like four rounds to put down the BG was a lot. (I know the police are generally not allowed by economics to be well-trained in firing their own weapons, so her aim was probably not what it could have been.)

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:28 am 13. gun control:

@ #5 Marsh…. LOL

Nancy Pelosi says that health care is the greatest thing that has happened for women in 50 years.

I disagree-

I think that teaching women how to maintain and fire automatic weapons and pistols is the greatest thing that has happened in the last 50 years.

Millions of Islamic fundamentalists will read about Major Hasan shooting and killing unarmed soldiers and civilians just before Veterans Day, screaming Allah Akbar,
then they will read that he was shot 4 times and dropped by an armed,
wounded American woman,
that has to scare the Shiite out of them.

We need to keep our American Women armed supplied with ammunition and not afraid to shoot back.

NICE SHOOTING KIM..

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:38 am 14. joe:

All weapons are “cop killers” because cops are people. A baseball bat is a “cop killer”, so is a kitchen knife. This Brady BS is only informative to morons. I own many “cop killing” weapons. My SUV will plow down any sentient being in my way if I choose to turn it into a weapon. I own a really sturdy metal chair that will put a serious dent into a skull, guaranteed. Gee, this “one Man, one vote” idea was a big mistake, unless you are a power hungry fascist.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:39 am 15. seguin:

“I think you should spread this far and wide. Its probably the most effective ad for gun regulation I’ve ever seen. Anyone who thinks this way shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun.”

Yes, moho, knowledge and reasoning ability are evil and should be kept from the proles at all costs.

And definitely keep weapons away from people who actually know how to use them responsibly.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:50 am 16. Jerry:

I think you should spread this far and wide. Its probably the most effective ad for gun regulation I’ve ever seen. Anyone who thinks this way shouldn’t be allowed to own a gun.

Given that armor penetration in this round is accomplished by use of a very small diameter non-expanding round designed to be very stable during penetration and after, I’m curious what you find wrong with the “counter intuitive” statement. A bullet creates damage by generating as large and deep a hole as possible in the target and creating maximum tissue damage. A round characterized as small, non-expanding, and stable – i.e. maximized for soft armor penetration from a pistol – will produce a minimal wound channel. Moreover, given the relatively low velocity associated with a pistol, minimal bullet tumbling and, therefore, minimum secondary tissue disruption are likely. Sounds to me like the comment that you are criticizing is pretty much spot on

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:53 am 17. moho:

I’m not against gun ownership, but articles like the one above seriously make me wonder if I should be. Does your movement have people with brains to write this stuff?

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:54 am 18. Michael:

moho, your comment makes no sense. Could you elaborate on why this horrifies you so? If you are not against gun ownership why “should spread this far and wide” for gun regulation? Do you think knowing the effectiveness of a gun or round is grounds for barring someone from gun ownership?

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:15 am 19. Captain Ramen:

Aren’t we forgetting something? The armor piercing variant of the FN 5.7mm ammo isn’t available to civilians. All you anti-gun-nuts can go on and on about the need to control guns, but in order to use the cop killing (armor piercing) feature you are already violating the law.

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:18 am 20. moho:

If you are not against gun ownership why “should spread this far and wide” for gun regulation? Do you think knowing the effectiveness of a gun or round is grounds for barring someone from gun ownership?

I’m not surprised the comment made no sense to you, Michael, since you seem barely literate. Gun ownership and gun regulation are two different things. The fact that such weapons exist, whether or not they’re effective [the silliest idea for an article yet. Thank god for ineffective weapons!]. Why don’t you lobby for howitzer ownership. The constitution doesn’t specifically mention “guns” after all, but arms. You should be able to own an MX or whatever you like! Ownership of anything even moderately dangerous, including knives, is regulated.

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:32 am 21. Jerry:

moho (obviously not to be confused with mojo)
You have again posted an insulting fact-free comment saying those who “write this stuff” don’t have any “brains”
I note that you have not addressed my comments on the wounding characteristics of small diameter diameter metal jacketed rounds operating at pistol type muzzle velocities, all of which are easily verifiable and well known to anyone familiar with small arms ballistics
Are you confused by fact based arguments or do you simply lack the “brains” to comprehend them?

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:33 am 22. M. Report:

Never interrupt, or worse, educate,
your enemy, while he is making a mistake.

Military firearms, and cartridges, are
optimized to wound, rather than kill;
Treating the wounded puts more of a burden
on enemy logistics than burying the dead.

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:44 am 23. DavidN:

I wondered about this when I first heard he had a 5.7 pistol. One of the things that made me curious was how someone could shoot that many people. You’d think, even if they didn’t tackle him from behind or something, that they would have cleared out and run away before he had time to shoot that many people. One thought I had related to the penetrative characteristics of the 5.7 bullet. Supposedly, when he started shooting the soldiers were gathered in a large group, waiting to deploy or something. Has anyone considered the possibility that the bullets, some of them anyway, may have passed through multiple victims? Whether they penetrate vests or not, they would definitely penetrate people (at least enough to wound someone). The ratio of dead to wounded seems low, for a pistol; usually with this type of shooting the shooter makes sure you’re dead, or at least can do this. Here he seems to have opened fire, reloaded when empty, moved elsewhere and repeated the procedure, until someone intervened and shot him.

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:52 am 24. Seraphim:

Tell me, [20.], do regulations on gun laws affect the ability of a criminal to acquire firearms for illegal perposes? Regulations and controls only pertain to law-abiding citizens. The criminal element will purchase or steal their guns illegally and bypass any regulations or laws. There, I answered for you.

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:54 am 25. Seraphim:

It makes sense that a gun created for the purpose of piercing armor would do more damage only to someone wearing armor since the armor would slow the bullet down enough to cause more damage on impact with flesh.

A speeding, lighter weight bullet through armorless flesh would indeed seem to be less impacted.

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:57 am 26. Real Deal:

moho is a troll. Don’t feed the trolls, unless of course its waffles.

Here you go moho.

Ingredients

* 2 cups all-purpose flour
* 2 teaspoons baking powder
* 2 tablespoons white sugar
* 1/2 teaspoon salt

* 2 egg whites
* 2 egg yolks
* 2 tablespoons grated lemon zest
* 1 teaspoon vanilla extract
* 2 cups milk
* 6 tablespoons butter, melted

Directions:

1. Preheat a waffle iron according to manufacturer’s instructions.
2. Whisk the flour, baking powder, sugar, and salt together in a mixing bowl; set aside. Beat egg whites until foamy in a separate large glass or metal mixing bowl. Whisk the egg yolks, lemon zest, and vanilla extract together in a third bowl; whisk in the milk. Stir in the flour mixture until smooth. Fold in the melted butter and then the beaten egg whites until just incorporated.
3. Cook the waffles according to manufacturer’s instructions until golden brown.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:08 am 27. moho:

I note that you have not addressed my comments on the wounding characteristics of small diameter diameter metal jacketed rounds operating at pistol type muzzle velocities, all of which are easily verifiable and well known to anyone familiar with small arms ballistics

I could describe to you all of the chemical interactions involved in defecation. And perhaps it would be of interest to you. It wouldn’t illuminate anything about the digestive system. Your article is total wankery. This reminds me of a hagiography of the bullet that killed MLK that I saw on the History Channel once. You should spend more time with your hummel figurines and less time bothering the world with your insipid opinions.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:10 am 28. moho:

Real Deal. That’s the only empirical evidence that appears on this page.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:22 am 29. HEPT:

The penetration of the .45 ACP Ball round is 19 inches in ballistic geletin.
The .45 ACP Ball round will drop a horse in it’s tracks with one shot.
It’s armor penetrative ability is somewhat less effective.
I have always been amazed at the power of the 7.62 x 25 Tok round out of a Czech CZ-52.
The 5.7×28 mm is the M-16 idea taken to a pistol where hits through armor count more than stopping power or killing potential.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:32 am 30. deguello:

Cop killer weapons? You mean Jefferson’s “liberty teeth”?These are things of joy, Beauty and Freedom,suitable for offing gulag guards, ACORN militias, and would-be members of the secret police;needed now more than ever to stop Obama’s stalinists, should they decide to trah the constitution.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:40 am 31. deguello:

MOHO, I just read your repugnant anti-second amendment,anti-freedom stalinist drivel. Know this:as long as people like you infest our republic,I’ll sleep better knowing that your castroite dreams will never be realized because millions of patriots armed with “cop killer” read anti-stalinist secret police weapons,stand ready to defend the constitution from scum like you. To you and the Obamanista regime we say: “Go ahead,make our day”!BTW: Will you take yoour penicillin already!

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:47 am 32. Jason:

“I’m not against gun ownership, but articles like the one above seriously make me wonder if I should be.”

Ok, moho, I’ll bite. Why? Exactly. What is it in the article that makes you think you should be against “gun ownership”?

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:48 am 33. toad:

Someone was claiming that the Secret Service uses the 5.7 in a pistol. Wrong. They might have some full auto PS-90s around but not the pistol.

The Canadians tested out the 5.7 pistol and found it lacking as police defense round.
As stated the various law enforcement agencies in the US use .40 S&W, .45 acp, and 357 Sig. The 9mm seems to be fading in use, though with Gold Dots is does fairly well.

The core of the thing is if you are going to have a gun free zone then you better have some armed men roving and stationed around to enforce that when a goblin ignores the signs. Or give up on the gun free zone concept. “Every officer will wear his side arm while on base.”

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:54 am 34. moho:

Deguello. Here here, some honesty at last. I think that you should always make such comments, rather than sniveling and hiding behind facades of pearl-clutching offense.

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:59 am 35. Dennis N:

@ Earl T:

> What weapon and what caliber DID the Officer use? Seems like four rounds to put down the BG was a lot.

I don’t know if it’s been released, but she probably would have been carrying a 9mm Parabellum or a .40 S&W. Those are still the most common cop guns.

I’m not at all sure it took four rounds to stop him. She kept shooting until he was down. It’s cheap insurance, particularly when the BG is capable of shooting back. Given the fact that police accuracy in firefights is pretty dismal (everybody’s really), and the fact that she already had holes in her, Officer Kim Munley’s shooting is hard to fault.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:01 am 36. buzz:

“I could describe to you all of the chemical interactions involved in defecation”
I suppose you could, it would be off-topic and have nothing to do with the subject at hand, but perhaps that is where your expertise lies.

“You should spend more time with your hummel figurines and less time bothering the world with your insipid opinions.”

The world doesn’t seem to be bothered, only you. I found the post and the responses to be very interesting as I knew nothing about the pistol and the cartridge before reading this. It explains how the officer could take multiple hits and still bring the assailant down, and how so many were wounded and not killed. It is reminiscent of the Battle of Mogadishu where our soldiers expressed frustration of hitting the enemy with their rifles, only to have them pop up again and resume fighting. Same reason. High speed, small round drilling a tiny hole thru the enemy, causing relativity little damage. I find it interesting that the press and advocacy groups demonize this weapons, seemingly knowing little about it.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:06 am 37. ahad ha'amoratsim:

To go back to the original topic: Two favorite examples of MSM ignorance. The NYT showed photos of the two pistols used by the Long Island RR shooter. The times swapped the captions for the two pistols. Not long after, the Columbus (OH) Dispatch ran an editorial cautioning against deadly semi-automatic pistols that hold numerous bullets in the chamber. Simultaneoulsy? Good trick, that.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:13 am 38. Colin:

I have a hard time taking everyone who’s arguing over the caliber of the weapon (pro and con) seriously. His objective was probably to cause as much mayhem and damage as possible before he went down in the minimum amount of time possible. Reloading a heavier caliber gun tends to cut down on the amount of time one has – especially if one isn’t an expert – which he obviously was not. He wasn’t aiming his shots. As such a weapon that carried the maximum amount of ammo per clip was probably the best choice from his (twisted) perspective.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:15 am 39. Colin:

I have a hard time taking everyone who’s arguing over the caliber of the weapon (pro and con) seriously. It’s beside the point. His objective was probably to cause as much mayhem and damage as possible before he went down in the minimum amount of time possible before forces could respond to him and take him down. Reloading a heavier caliber gun tends to cut down on the amount of time one has – especially if one isn’t an expert – which he obviously was not. He wasn’t aiming his shots. As such a weapon that carried the maximum amount of ammo per clip was probably the best choice from his (twisted) perspective.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:16 am 40. Bob Owens:

Folks, I’ve seen several ask about the weapons used to bring Hasan down.

I believe I read in one news account that the two officers that fired upon Hasan used Berettas, but they did not specify a caliber or model number. It would not be too surprising if we find out they were using the 9mm M9.

I hear the Army has a few of those.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:20 am 41. DrWyrm:

Moho:

Why wouldn’t artillery weapons be protected by the 2nd amendment?

Congress has the power to issue letters of marque and reprisal; what else would someone with a letter of marque arm their ship with?

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:26 am 42. Jerry:

To Buzz
I agree with your observations. This was a generally informative article. If you are new to this subject and not a complete idiot as moho seems to be, you can learn something

If you are really interested in this subject, you’ll find that small diameter and high speed can be quite destructive IF it is combined with minimal round stability and bullet design that incorporates an axis of rotation that is in front of the center of gravity. THIS combination (like found in the original AR-15 design by Eugene Stoner, with a flat bottomed 55g bullet barely stabilized with a 1 twist in 14 inches rifling pattern) resulted in bullets that have a high propensity to tumble after target penetration, resulting in wounds that are a whole lot worse than one would ever expect from a little metal jacketed bullet. By the time Mogadishu came along, the M-16 had been redesigned to fire a somewhat longer, heavier round using a 1 in 7 rifle pattern. Excellent accuracy, great penetration, but at close range, virtually no tumble and, consequently, minimal tissue disruption

To moho
I see that you have proved my point. You have not responded to any specific factual observation and are unable to answer any question with anything other than boilerplate cut-and-paste insults that probably struck you as clever the first thirty or forty times that you posted them elsewhere. I’m sure that your mom is proud of you. Now, get out of the basement and go play with the other little boys.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:34 am 43. moho:

Ok, moho, I’ll bite.

Your personal life is your own business.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:34 am 44. Anonymous:

“Ok, moho, I’ll bite.

Your personal life is your own business.”

So in other words Mojo, you’re saying you have no reasoning behind your statement.

I asked for simple clarification and explanation of your statement, which on the surface is not apparent. If you are unwilling to explain your statement or even show how it is relevant, then I guess the observer is only left with one option, and that’s to completely disregard it.

I had hoped you would actually have something to point to as a reason for making a statement which did not follow from the article.

Too bad you can’t stand up for yourself and can only rely on ad hominems for defense of your own statements.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:46 am 45. Jason:

“Ok, moho, I’ll bite.

Your personal life is your own business.”

So in other words Mojo, you’re saying you have no reasoning behind your statement.

I asked for simple clarification and explanation of your statement, which on the surface is not apparent. If you are unwilling to explain your statement or even show how it is relevant, then I guess the observer is only left with one option, and that’s to completely disregard it.

I had hoped you would actually have something to point to as a reason for making a statement which did not follow from the article.

Too bad you can’t stand up for yourself and can only rely on ad hominems for defense of your own statements.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:46 am 46. Curry:

Once again the ignorant media breathlessly described the weapon as a [wait for it...] SEMI-AUTOMATIC handgun !! Of course it was. What did they expect, a pirate matchlock?

Apparently the citizenry gets not only the government they deserve, but the reporting as well.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:50 am 47. Phranc:

20. moho:

If you are not against gun ownership why “should spread this far and wide” for gun regulation? Do you think knowing the effectiveness of a gun or round is grounds for barring someone from gun ownership?

I’m not surprised the comment made no sense to you, Michael, since you seem barely literate. Gun ownership and gun regulation are two different things. The fact that such weapons exist, whether or not they’re effective [the silliest idea for an article yet. Thank god for ineffective weapons!]. Why don’t you lobby for howitzer ownership. The constitution doesn’t specifically mention “guns” after all, but arms. You should be able to own an MX or whatever you like! Ownership of anything even moderately dangerous, including knives, is regulated.
____________________________________________________________
Argument ad hominan.
Argument absurdum .
Argument straw man.

Most if not all of your post include one or more of these. Why don’t you actually use something like intellectual integrity or honesty? It would go a long way in establishing something like credibility.

If you bother to respond to this I wonder what false argument tactic you use.

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:58 am 48. tom swift:

“If you are really interested in this subject, you’ll find that small diameter and high speed can be quite destructive IF it is combined with minimal round stability and bullet design that incorporates an axis of rotation that is in front of the center of gravity.”

Not needed at all. In one of their training manuals, circa 1942, Captains Fairbairn and Sykes wrote of the remarkable destructive effects of 7.63 Mauser even with conventional bullets. The Mauser cartridge was a half-century-old antique, even then, though of course it got a big boost when the Soviet Union adopted it as 7.62×25 Tokarev. So none of this is news. Bullets in general are dangerous – there’s no getting around it. They’re supposed to be. This may be a real revelation to the Brady Bunch, but what do they know?

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:01 am 49. Commuter:

‘So in other words Mojo, you’re saying you have no reasoning behind your statement.
I asked for simple clarification and explanation of your statement, which on the surface is not apparent.’

His comments are invariably unsubstantiated assertions and ill-informed opinions. Expecting a coherent defense of either is a lost cause. Someone who in a single comment can both claim that another comment makes no sense to him (the intent and content being clear every other reader) while touting his own intelligence as the reason the point being made escapes him… well, moho is not one of the sharper tools in the shed.

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:08 am 50. Curtis M:

Ok, moho, I’ll bite.

Your personal life is your own business.

Are you even CAPABLE of maintaining a discussion above the 5th-grade level?

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:09 am 51. mickey:

LOL, MOHO you’re one of the lamest trolls, ya gotta work on your game, sitting in mommie’s basement google searching blogs to stalk with your agenda requires some communication skills, just babbling BS does little more than show you are an idiot.
that being said, ya, the goblin went for the most rounds he could shoot the fastest, but in the big picture, the tragedy lies in the gun free victims, had the soldiers, even a few been armed at the time, would have changed the outcome of this tragedy.

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:13 am 52. moho:

Curtis. Of course, what would you like to talk about?

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:19 am 53. moho:

Mickey. Send again when you’ve added punctuation. I have no idea what you’re going on about.

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:20 am 54. Owen:

The reason .38 Super was popular with the cartels is because “military calibers” are illegal there. The 9mm, .45 and .38 Special are all military calibers, the .38 Super is not.

That made it possible to buy/steal ammo down south.

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:23 am 55. michael freeman:

this is the dumbest article ever written.

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:35 am 56. NoelArmourson:

Early this morning a CBS reporter described Hasan’s weapon as a “laser-guided high-powered pistol”.
I’d like to see one of those…

Nov 9, 2009 - 11:42 am 57. Old Soldier:

NoelArmourson: Like the ones they had in “The Fifth Element”? I thought he used a phaser.

Nov 9, 2009 - 12:03 pm 58. renminbi:

Why are you guys paying attention to a troll? He gets off on that.

Nov 9, 2009 - 12:09 pm 59. theBman:

It could be argued that if he was using a .357, .45ACP, or any other so-called “stopping power” weapon, there would be LESS dead and wounded. Of course it could be argued the other way also, as it is above. The human factor is by far the largest variable with any weapon.

It’s not the end-all-be-all of handguns by any strech of the imagination; but there are some definite advantages to a FiveSeven:

1. A fiveSeven has about 30% less felt recoil than a 9MM, let alone anything higher in caliber. This allows quicker, more accurate follow-up shots.
2. Unless you’re using extended magazines, you’re looking at 6-16 rounds per magazine, tops in a 9mm\40S&W\.45ACP\.357. That means more reloading. FiveSeven standard mag has 20, unless your state says otherwise.(TX does not)
3. SS197SR – 5.7×28mm rounds tend to tumble once entering a body cavity because of the low twist to foot ratio of 9 to 1 through a FiveSeven. (much like some .223’s. In case you didn’t know, 5.7×28mm and .223 bullets are the same diameter (.224 inch. Guess what that is in milimeters… correct! 5.7mm))IIRC, SS195LF rounds tend to fragment (hollowpoints). They do NOT just punch straight through. Granted, they will not leave as big of a temp wound cavity like a .45ACP, but they will do damage internaly.
4. regardless on what ammo this scum used, civilians CAN get 5.7×28mm rounds that will penetrate, at minimum, level II soft body armor. It’s not illegal. FN chooses not to sell it to civilians. Other companies DO choose to sell to civilians.
5. A 5.7×28mm to the heart\head\throat will kill you just as dead as a .45ACP to the heart\head\throat. Same with a .32. Same with a .44magnum

I’m not just talking out of my a$$ here. I own both a FiveSeven (it’s my winter carry sidearm. A little bulky for concealed carry in the summer)and a PS90 (among other calibers) and have done extensive research in making my decision to buy them.(they are not cheap) I have several hundred rounds through each weapon. Please don’t try to tell me what you’ve HEARD about FiveSeven’s and the 5.7×28mm round through word of mouth that I KNOW from experience.

That being said, I agree with the post above that he wanted maximum shots with minimal reloads for causing terror. He probably bought into hype also. Hype usually has some element of truth. I’ll add that he didn’t(?) go with extended mags for concealability reasons.

Also, I’ve always found the “cop killer” arguement absurd. It’s like saying cars, baseball bats, chainsaws, swimming pools, dinner forks, screwdrivers, etc., ad nauseum are “cop killers” also. Inanimate objects don’t just jump out and kill cops. Scumbags that control the inanimate objects are the “cop killers”.

Nov 9, 2009 - 12:21 pm 60. john from cinncinatti:

moho is a self proclaimed mohamedhan.
26:real deal right, you’re on the money.
28:moho empirical evidence that appears on the page,
what part? the one about you being a troll, or the recipe.
13 dead 30 wounded, seems he planned it out real well, and the choice of weapons is moot. this should’ve, could’ve, didn’t, monday morning quarterbacking is bs. what if a frog had wings? yeah but he don’t. there has been a rash of unhinged fools that have gone off the deep end, this one happened to be an unhinged muslim fool.

Nov 9, 2009 - 12:54 pm 61. Rev. Joel:

It is ironic that the original term “Cop Killer” was applied by the hoplophobes to the KTW Teflon coated .357 AP pistol round, and to date there has not been one police officer killed with one of these rounds.

Nov 9, 2009 - 1:43 pm 62. Michael Smith:

Thank you, Mr. Owens, for the informative article.

The media remains desperate to depict this mass-murder as being something, indeed ANYTHING, other than what it actually was: just the latest murderous jihadist attack by a Muslim faithfully following the teachings of Islam.

So when it appeared that it might be possible to distract everyone’s attention from this lunatic’s jihad by instead demonizing the weapon he used, the “useful idiots” in the media immediately ran with the story, without checking the facts, thereby making fools of themselves once again.

What’s worse, the media is desperately evading the other crucial part of this story: namely, the fact that CAIR and the other Islam-apologist organizations in America are on the verge of a great victory in their effort to bring us under Muslim domination. That victory consists of so intimidating an arm of the American government — the U.S. Army — that it will not take action against a Muslim who is obviously on a path to a jihad that will end American lives.

The media has aided and abetted this intimidation by its willingness to accept and publicize any accusation of “discrimination” leveled by these Islamic advocacy groups against any organization or institution in the U.S. The media is thus an accomplice in Hasan’s successful mass-murder and shares moral guilt for the deaths of 13 innocent citizens and the serious injury of dozens more.

The jihadists are among us and The New York Times et al are determined to protect them.

Nov 9, 2009 - 1:47 pm 63. Curtis M:

moho -

“Curtis. Of course, what would you like to talk about?”

The article puts forth the theory that the use of a particular type of firearm and ammunition which had been labeled as “cop-killers” by the populist media possibly resulted in FEWER fatalities than a (presumably) non-”cop killer” firearm/ammunition.

This was followed by the reasoning behind this theory. I’d like to talk about this theory.

Personally, I’m not completely sold on the idea but I think it might have some merit. I think that the high number of wounded victims compared to fatalities may be due more to the training of the victims (in both self-preservation as well as the administration of first-aid) coupled with piss-poor skills (my assumption) from the shooter rather than the caliber/type of ammunition used.

Without any hard data however it is all conjecture.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:00 pm 64. Pixelkiller:

#56: Could they have meant a lazer sight like in Crimson Trace? (really nice, no need to aim).
Re: bullets big and small. My M1 Garand took down guys at more than 300 yards. Good ol 3006, big, fast, accurate and deadly! Hand gun bullets: the 45 auto will knock a man down if you hit him almost anywhere. (Then you can stroll over and finish him).
All this talk about the relative merits of small/fast over big/slow is kinda pointless because if and when you find yourself in a “situation”, you just want it over with them down and you standing.
Not-for-nuttin as they say here in Doity Joisey, I had a blow-gun and I made some darts from piano wire and cotten balls. I had to use plyers to remove the darts from 2×6s.
Time for two fingers of jack Daniels……

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:17 pm 65. theBman:

“The difference between a wound from a 5.7 bullet and a .45 ACP is not dissimilar to the difference between the wound from an ice pick and the wound from a sledgehammer. The ice pick will penetrate far deeper, but the sledgehammer will cause far more traumatic injuries.”

To reiterate my point in #5 above:

Would you rather take a sleadgehammer blow to the chest, aimed at the heart, or an icepick stab to the heart? How about the neck? leg?

Would you rather me swing with a sleadgehammer at you blindfolded, or stab at you with an icepick blindfolded?

See, it’s easy to get steared away from the truth. Hasan killed our nations finest in cold blood.

The gun did not.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:23 pm 66. Van the Pistol Instructor:

Interesting comments at the top – but NOT well researched.

There are now nearly 20 different rounds for the 5.7 X 28 and each has a different function and character. The SS 190 is YES an armor piercing round and only for sale to the military and police in the United States. But, that is also true for several other rounds and calibers that can be used in both a pistol and a rifle configuration. The P90 (full Auto) 5.7 X 28 carbine is also only available to the military and law enforcement in the US.

The “cop killer” description was applied by the US Press Core when it was discovered that the SS 190 and SS 192 rounds would go through certain levels of Kevlar – especially the cheaper ones used then by local police agencies. So F&N agreed to stop shipping them to the United States – except for military and law enforcement use.

I deplore what happened at Ft. Hood, and in fact would ask for the most extensive penalties for anyone using a firearm to commit a crime. And, I’m not opposed to a little Texas style justice here – but it will be a military trial not civilian.

But, note that this was a military officer committing a crime against military officers – the very place where armor piercing rounds like the SS190 ammo can be obtained. If it had not been a SS190 in 5.7 X 28 then it would have been one of several other rounds limited to military and law enforcement use.

Show me any personal self defense clothing, used by the US police, that can take on an armor piercing round and win and I’ll stand you a beer!

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:24 pm 67. Mark:

To expand on what theBman said, 5.7mmx28mm will penetrate a NIJ Level II rated vest, just like almost all centerfire rifle ammunition will. Level II is a very low rating, rarely worn by police, and is not designed to stop rifle level (which the 5.7 is, due to the bullet style used and velocity) threats. Even Level IIa (the usual concealable armor worn by police) will be penetrated by almost all centerfire rifle ammo, which is why when you see SWAT running around, they have Level III soft armor (proof against low powered rifle ammo, like 30-30) with Level IV plates, (will stop 30-06 armor piercing).

As for the M-16 bullet tumbling, all spitzer bullets tumble in flesh, even the full sized battle rifle ammunition used in WWII. The SS109 spec round that is current issue retains enough velocity to tumble out to 130 meters when fired out of the 20″ M-16. It is less than that when fired out of an M4.
Everything you ever wanted to know about the 5.56 round, and was afraid to ask, can be found here.

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:38 pm 68. Michael:

Thank you mojo for your ad homonym attack. I was in danger of thinking you could carry on a rational discussion without invective. I don’t know what I was thinking.

So between personal attacks you seem to say that the idea of a relatively ineffective caliber firearm is grounds for an urgent call for gun regulation. So are you calling for only powerful, effective calibers to be available for citizens?

Nov 9, 2009 - 2:39 pm 69. Everyday, No Days Off - Gun Blog » Cop Killer Guns and Fort Hood:

[...] Full article – HERE [...]

Nov 9, 2009 - 3:35 pm 70. spindok:

OK so gun mavens here:

I am just a guy with a passing knowlege. I own a 9mm Browning Hi-Power pistol and a .22 Browning pistol. Just fine for my purposes. For home safety I keep a loaded clip of each, the 9mm in hollow points. I have put enough rounds through each, along with Mrs. Spindok (she rocks with the .22), to feel comfortable and reasonably accurate should we actually need them for home defense, which I hope will never happen.

But that is not my question.

This sounds to me like a rather esoteric weapon. Not what the average military psychiatrist would buy because he wanted to just get better at shooting or maybe worse.

Do you folks, who know this better than myself, think this points to someone who had a long range plan or outside advice? He had obviously planned a major shootout and had loaded clips ready to go. Seems to me he had this ready to go long before he went “postal”.

I am interested in any helpful reply. Media spin can go different ways here and the government isnt going to tell us much.

Spindok

Nov 9, 2009 - 3:43 pm 71. Doug S:

I’m glad to see the MSM’s bias called out. They get away with so much distortion of fact and so many out-right lies that I can’t view them as legitimate news sources. I am also happy to see so many commentors with knoledge of terminal ballistics. (For moho: Ballistics are seperated in three categories; Internal, the behavior of a bullet prior to leaving the muzzle; External, the ……. in flight, and ; Terminal, the ……. in the target).

How can being informed about the performance of the weapon and round one is using be perceived as a case for gun regulation????

Nov 9, 2009 - 4:00 pm 72. frank grimes:

the author has a valid point,i owned a 5.7 and promptly sold it due to the fact that the ammo supplied was anemic.

as with any firearm thread BS abounds:

in order for the 5.7 to create a massive wound channel-it must ‘yaw’simular to the m-16 m855or m93 round-if it doesn’t you just poke a hole.

the grain weight of the ss190 is 28 grains and the barrel of the 5.7 pistol is 5 inches.

pretty much ALL sidearms are poor manstoppers compared to long arms-large bore magnums aside-even the mighty(heh).45.

recoil means jack squat if you are properly trained.

penetrating and defeating body armour are two different things.

the number one cop killer last time a checked (besides alcohol and suicide)was 12 gauge followed by the .40 s&w(most likely due to them being killed by their own weapon)

there are plenty of cheaper(180.00 versus 1200.00) powerful handguns that will inflict alot more damage to protective garments than the civvie FN.

gotta give you props bob,you knew about the .38 super down south.for ten extra points…can you explain why it was so popular?

Nov 9, 2009 - 4:29 pm 73. Dan Hamilton:

The 5.7 pistol is expensive and rare. The main reason to get is 20 round mags. 5 mags 100 rounds. Pass through causes more wounds. From what I have heard he was using Spray and Pray, typical Jahidis BS.

Expensive gun with 20 round mags bought by a person with little or no knowledge or experance with weapons.

If they knew anything, they would be alot more dangerous.

Nov 9, 2009 - 4:46 pm 74. M1A1:

moho is just like all the dems I see on debates. They yell and interrupt anybody who actually talks intelligently so the full truth dose not get out, only enough to let them twist the truth to suit their agenda. It’s a shame the truth scares them.
And just like moho nothing intelligent comes out.
If officers and NCO’s were armed, far less people would have died. This is just another example of the government not trusting us.
M1A1

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:18 pm 75. Barney15e:

#66. Van the PI,
“But, note that this was a military officer committing a crime against military officers – the very place where armor piercing rounds like the SS190 ammo can be obtained.”

However, on military bases, all weapons are stored in the armory, including personal firearms. Nobody can “get access” to the military issue ammunition without a reason, like training or going to war. The training rounds are usually just that, training, not the armor piercing rounds.

A member of the Medical corps is not going to get free reign to wander about the armory picking out ammunition.

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:21 pm 76. theBman:

@spindok:

My opinion is worth exactly what you just paid for it… that being said:

I think he bought into some of the hype of the weapon and expected to die in his own personal jihad (mainly because he failed on hooking up with AQ). I think he knew he was a bad shot so he obtained a weapon that he was TOLD would work best according to his skill and concealable. He had to get it on to the base unnoticed, right?

I think he did SOME research, no doubt… whether it was advice he got from fellow terrorists or lurking on weekend worrior boards… well, only he can answer that.

If it wasn’t hype, the only reason I can think that he chose a FiveSeven is for magazine capacity… maximum shots, minimal reload downtime. (that, BTW, is by no means a bad reason to choose a weapon.) NOT because it was a “cop killer”.

FYI spindok… Never -EVER- feel comfortable in your skill with a firearm. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!! If you have never fired your weapon under incoming fire, you can never know how you will react. If you are not hitting a target consistantly @ 10-20 yards from a holster without taking time to aim, you may be putting yourself and your loved ones in danger by drawing your weapon. Muscle memory is key.

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:37 pm 77. bigbang:

fascinating conversation. not to be sexist, but isn’t the 5.7 a popular pistol with the ladies due to almost zero recoil. i looked at one for the wife (she got a 9mm). the p90 is brilliant, but the 5.7 was never intended for pistol velocities against soft tissue. still, i sure as hell don’t want to get shot with that joker. thank god he didn’t pack more gun.

Nov 9, 2009 - 5:59 pm 78. bigbang:

[72] the 38 Super was popular in mexico because mexicans weren’t allowed to own firearms chambered in military calibers. tax pesos in action.

Nov 9, 2009 - 6:05 pm 79. Pixelkiller:

M1A1: Exactly correct. But, for their mission they need the correct weapons. They didn’t have it as it took four shots to stop the bastard.
Whatever happened to patroling MPs with billys and 45s? Every post had them. (Hell, I saw a SP keep three sailors against a wall with just his billy. He didn’t swing it, he poked with it. Never touched his pistol).
#76: muscle memory is key, but with the new lazer sights, your into point and shoot anyway. (Just muzeing here, but if I noticed a little red dot on my chest, I’d stop whatever I was doing. Instantly, if not sooner!)
What-the-hell, this whole Fort Hood shooting spree is beginning to smell. I think we’ll be hearing a lot of CYA after they get their ducks lined up. Should be interesting. You know, Lie-of-the-day and all that.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:19 pm 80. NC1911:

As a felony prosecutor for 20 years and a murder prosecutor for 15, I have seen a lot of gunshot wounds from a lot of different weapons. I also do the legal review of the use of deadly force incidents by law enforcement in our district. I have reviewed and presented more autopsies in shooting cases than I can remember. Shooting is my hobby. I am not an expert but several things can be stated with confidence based on real life experiences:

1) Shot placement and subsequent travel of the projectile, regardless of caliber, make all the difference. An inch or less can mean life or death.

2) No pistol caliber is a truly effective, consistent stopper in FMJ or ball ammo. This includes .45 ACP. I have seen many victims survive even multiple shots with FMJ ammo. (Yes even .45 ACP) Exceptions: head/neck shots; the projectile traversing heart. Thankfully, most criminals are stupid and buy the cheapest ammo (FMJ).

3) Most major pistol calibers, with reasonable shot placement and quality hollow point ammo, are effective stoppers. Ammo effectiveness has improved tremendously in the last 10-12 years. I have seen many hollow point projectiles recovered after a law enforcement shooting. I cannot remember one failing to perform (open and deform) reasonably well. This includes 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP striking through all kinds of clothing.

A good percentage of criminals will stop attacking when shot. They stop attacking from the shock that someone has actually shot them. Exceptions: attackers on drugs and the mentally disturbed/insane. However, there is no “magic bullet”. Quality hollow point ammo in .357 Mag, .45 ACP and .40 S&W is very effective with reasonable shot placement.

4) Shots from the calibers below the power of a 9mm or 38 Spl. (.380 ACP, .32 ACP, .25 ACP, .22WMR, .22 etc) are frequently fatal but it often takes hours or even longer. Exceptions: multiple well placed shots with quality ammo or head/neck shots. These calibers cannot be relied on to stop an attacker without good shot placement and multiple hits.

5) Close range, reasonably placed shotgun hits are almost always fatal and immediate fight stoppers. I have never seen any shotgun strike fail to stop an attacker.

6) Center fire caliber rifle shots are almost always fatal and immediate fight stoppers. Exception: Strikes to the limbs such as hands, feet, etc.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:22 pm 81. Paul S.:

Beyond calibers and penetration power, please think this through, Compassionate Ones:

“Gee, I hope somebody, with a GUN shows up in this free-fire zone before this nut runs out of ammo, otherwise we’re all dead and he’s the one standing!”

Texans, Iraqis and Israelis get this.

Nov 9, 2009 - 7:35 pm 82. Steve:

What weapon and what caliber DID the Officer use? Seems like four rounds to put down the BG was a lot.

That’s not a lot. What, you think it’s like the Westerns where Clint drops five bad guys with five bullets?

Nov 9, 2009 - 8:32 pm 83. Tucci:

Might be of interest for those reading to note that Roanoke County Circuit court records indicate that Nidal Malik Hasan had been issued a CCW permit in 1996.

This was about a year after he’d graduated from Virginia Tech. The guy was apparently well-practiced with handguns, and made his choice of the FN Five-seveN in Kileen this summer (shortly after arriving at Ft. Hood) with some knowledge of what its relative advantages and disadvantages were.

An Army medical officer – even though he was a psychiatrist, he’d matriculated at the armed forces’ very own medical school in Bethesda, meaning he got a LOT of training in managing firearms wounding – Maj. Hasan had been working in that Soldier Readiness Center at Ft. Hood for months while preparing to go overseas, and he knew full well that none of his targets would have ballistic protection of any kind.

He picked out that FN Five-seveN knowing PRECISELY how (and on whom) it was going to be used. “Allahu Akbar!”

The medic who first responded to render care to the unconscious Maj. Hasan found the man’s fatigue pockets crammed full of a far greater number of loaded magazines than the six or so he’d gone through.

So ya think his attorney is going to try for a diminished capacity “insanity” defense in spite of all this evidence of cold-blooded premeditation?

Nov 9, 2009 - 9:11 pm 84. Robert:

Folks, moho is a concern troll.

Anyways, gun prohibition is obsolete.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPhbdW9SxEM

http://fab.cba.mit.edu/

Nov 9, 2009 - 10:53 pm 85. Timothy Birdnow » Some Ballistic Facts about the Fort Hood Shootings:

[...] [...]

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:51 am 86. James:

he should not have gone in there and started shooting like that he knew what would happen if he did.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:50 am 87. greg:

maybe the Brady bunch would feel better if he had used a army tank

Nov 10, 2009 - 1:02 pm 88. deguello:

#84 How about troll control? Who’s for retroactive abortions?

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:17 pm 89. ewo4:

F that POS that killed my brothers and sisters.

The high velocity shock wave from the 5-7 damages tissue not associated with the wound wound channel.

The .357 sig and the 9×19 are about the same size the only real difference is the velocity.

Ya’ll know this but send out this misinformation that smaller high velocity rounds are safer than lower velocity large caliber.

Stop trying to pretend that the weapon had nothing to do with the resulting deaths.

Everyone who has bought a weapon knows different weapons are suited for different applications.

Some weapons are better than others.

The 5-7 did what it was designed to do.

Don’t put down the weapon to further your political agenda.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:02 pm 90. Tucci:

Got into the discussion page for Wikipedia’s article on the Fort Hood shooting and suggested a reference link to this article of Mr. Owens.

But, of course, the Wikipedia apparatchik responding says that there’s not enough proof of Mr. Owens’ qualifications to speak as a firearms expert, so they’re not going to soil their site with a dirty, awful, horrible Pajamas Media citation.

Mr. Owens? You reading this? Care to put up a truncated curriculum vitae attesting to your bona fides in this matter?

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:31 pm 91. B Sierra:

I don’t care how stupid killers are in their choice of weapons… what I know is that evil people kill innocent people no matter the caliber.

Guns are devices, tools, neither evil nor good, right or wrong, not black,, not white.

I own an XDM… it’s basically a Glock 17 and has been referred to as a weapon of mass destruction by Congressmen.

.22’s, 9’s, .45’s, all are lethal in their unique way.

All weapons are either offensive, or defensive. Used for good, or for evil. How good each model do their job or not is irrelevant to the Hood tragedy, but it’s an emotion amplifier for the fear mongers over the fearful.

Frankly, I tremble some when I think about the events and how they must have unfolded, and wonder if I was there, armed or unarmed what I would or could have done or not done.

The evil is what kills… always been that way, always will be.

Weapon choice (stick, rock, sword, bow & arrow, baseball bat, gun, or micro-laser blaster, etc.) is a matter of efficiency to carry out evil.

PS. Yet another example of the “gun free zone” in action. It’s what the suicide crowd love… calculating how many unarmed sheep they can they slaughter before the armed protectors show up and move in.

School. mall, federal building, now military base? Suicidal terrorist or suicidal nut case is the same difference to me.
They suffer from a serious mental disorder caused by a chronic mineral deficiency, nothing a little copper and lead won’t cure.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:43 pm 92. Bob Owens:

Tucci, I’ve been hunting and shooting since I was 15, sold firearms a major sporting goods retailer, hold a concealed carry permit valid in 30 states, andhave written about firearms and military affairs for Pajamas Media for two years, my personal blog for five years, and have been used a weapons identification resource by the Israeli Foreign Ministry (yesterday) and Michael Yon, among others. I have graduated two formal shooting courses (thus far). Ruger, Remington, and Smith & Wesson all have me approved for writer’s consignments (for the testing and evaluation of firearms).

I am not now nor have I ever been a member of any military of law enforcement agency, nor am I a trained ballistics expert, nor a medical examiner, nor do I claim to be any of those things.

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:49 am 93. Odysseus:

Tucci wrote: “So ya think his attorney is going to try for a diminished capacity “insanity” defense in spite of all this evidence of cold-blooded premeditation?”

Sure, what else would they have? But the problem, in addition to facts you cite, will be that Maj. Hasan circulated amongst mental health pros for years without any of them being disturbed enough to act. It will make for an interesting defense though.

My question is whether the US Army will have the nerve to charge Maj. Hasan with treason: Levying War? Debatable. Adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort? Recent reports on his activities could be used to make that case.

Nov 11, 2009 - 11:43 am 94. Odysseus:

#80 NC1911 A very, very good brief.

This one comment should be attached to all similar articles on handgun usage.

Nov 11, 2009 - 11:57 am 95. Tucci:

Mr. Owens, thanks for the short list of qualifications. If you get to the “Fort Hood shooting” discussion page on Wikipedia before the nomenklatura scour it off the page…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Fort_Hood_shooting#.22Thank_Goodness_for_.27Cop_Killer.27_Weapons.22

…(as they’re known to do), you’ll see that some several of the hoplophobes have attempted to refute the “lies” you’d purportedly uttered in your article by citing reviews of various types of 5.7×28mm rounds written by David Fortier and Michael O. Humphries (who had interviewed a Sheriff’s Dept. officer in Passaic County, NJ, and second-handed some results on ballistics tests conducted by department’s SWAT team).

Read Mr. Humphries’ interview of Capt. Lostan explaining why his SWAT team had all adopted the Five-seveN and how pleased they were with it. Then read what there is on those impact tests – on a cartridge type not commercial available for sale to “Guns Galore” patrons.

Mr. Owens, apart from plain damn’ common sense, how did you come to assert that the rounds used by Maj. Hasan were almost certainly of the SS197SR type (with the 40-grain Hornady V-Max projectile) and not the SS195LF 28-grain practice round? Or some left-over discontinued SS195 FMJ cartridges?

The gun-grabbers on Wikipedia have fixated on your supposedly prevaricative pretense to a knowledge they’d like to believe you could not know – or robustly infer.

These guys do really chap my ass, I tell you.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:38 am 96. edt:

i cant believe what I am seeing here. People really think that a 9mm or 45acp is more lethan than a five-seven?

You think he would have killed more people shooting his magnum?

FACTS people . . .

Atlanta GA, 9mm & 45acp, 12 dead

Washington DC sniper, bushmaster .223, 10 dead

chicago laid off worker, 2003, walther pp .380, 7 dead.

ratzmann, 2005, church (talk about easy targets), 22 rounds of a 9mm, he killed 7 other people.

omaha, 2007 nine killed assault rifle

virginia tech massacre, .22 walter p22, and 9mm glock. He shot 174 rounds in 10 minutes, killing 30. using a 15 round mag in the glock, and a 10 round in the walther.

carnation, wa, 9mm & .357 revolver

chicago, 2008, 5 women die, dekalb, 2008 5 students die, alger, wa 2008, 6 killed, covina 2008, 9 dead, geneva 10 dead.

Let’s be real. The five-seven is one of the most lethally effective guns out there. If you look at all of the above incidents, you’ll notice the bigger the caliber of the weapon, the less lead you have to put into someone to kill someone (sorry this is so gruesome). A smaller weapon like a five-seven requires more rounds to stop someone BUT and here is the interesting part . . .

most of of the times (I have read this from police reports too) when a person gets shot, he goes down NOT because is “stopped” by the round, but because he is so surprised that he got shot. For the five-seven shooter, this meant that having such a large volume of fire meant he had great defensive capability, because touching someone with a bullet would send them down (even though they were physically able to continue).

I have always felt that the 45acp was the best weapon for home defense but seeing the results of the five-seven disaster has made me rethink this issue.

I think if I were protecting my home from a gang, the five-seven might be the best choice. You touch a gang member with a bullet he’ll go down from the surprise even if he’s not officially “stopped”, allowing you to prevent you from being attacked.

Notice also that this fort hood shooter only got stopped when he was RELOADING. Which means to me that the five-seven is so effective defensively that it is only because this shooter was bad at reloading that he got shot so early in his rampage.

Not that i would ever actually buy a five-seven for home defense. Who wants to spend $1,000 for a gun that so easily overpenetrates.

But I think the “bigger is better” people have to give credit to the gun. I think this guy would have killed a lot less people if he had been carrying a 45acp. Apparently there is something to being able to “spray” bullets. The large capacity magazine kept people from jumping him.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:05 pm

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