The Dangers of Inadequate Concealed Carry Training
As more Americans get concealed carry permits, irresponsible gun ownership incidents must be addressed.
When Debra Monce went into the bathroom stall of the Clarion Hotel in Tampa last Friday and sat down to conduct one of life’s biological functions, she certainly didn’t mean to hurt anyone.
That said, when she squatted the small-caliber handgun she was carrying fell out of its holster, hit the ground, and went off.
The single bullet went into the next stall. Janifer Bliss — ironically at the hotel for a women’s health conference — was hit by the bullet in the lower leg. Monce, who has a concealed carry permit, now faces the possibility of being charged by the state attorney’s office. She will also probably suffer from a lifetime of jokes involving the phrases “crap shoot” or “shooting someone in the head.”
As bizarre as this accidental restroom shooting was, similarly notable incidents involving the legal concealed carry of firearms happen more often you might think — including at least one other toilet-related incident in the past six months.
A Carl’s Jr. restaurant in Centerville, Utah, became the butt of jokes (sorry, couldn’t resist) in mid-January when a man attempting to use a toilet also had a nasty discharge of the potentially lethal kind. Like in the Tampa incident, the concealed handgun carrier had his gun in an open-top holster, and when he sat on the toilet, the gun slipped out of the holster and fired when it slammed into the tile floor. Though no other patron was injured by the bullet, the concealed carry permit holder in this incident was injured by shards of flying porcelain from the toilet he destroyed.
The restaurant, having a warped sense of humor, conducted a funeral service for the departed throne, appropriately named “John.” While both incidents are odd and amusing (to everyone other than the injured), they are anecdotal data points of a very real and potentially growing problem of a society that has the right to carry concealed weapons, but not the training to carry them responsibly.
As concealed carry permits become more common and the number of permit holders continues to grow, there will logically be a greater number of firearms carried outside of the home. In general this is a good thing, as those states and municipalities that have concealed carry laws typically have lower violent crime rates than those areas that severely limit their citizens’ right to defend themselves. That said, an unfortunate side effect of having more guns “out and about” in society is that there has been a corresponding rise in the number of people who have acted negligently with their firearms.
Some have dropped their weapon, as we saw in the cases above. Some have chosen to carry their handgun off-body in a purse, briefcase, or pack and then momentarily leave it where others can access it, with predictably grim results.
And it has been documented all too often that many gun owners — and not just those with carry permits — leave firearms “hidden” in places where little hands find them. Those who carry firearms on a regular basis sometimes seem to forget that it is not a benign accessory such as a cell phone or wallet that poses no threat. I’ve personally witnessed a carry permit holder come home from a day’s work and place his wallet, keys, and holstered gun on the bar in his kitchen … even though he has two small children at home, aged seven and four.
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Bob Owens blogs at Confederate Yankee.
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113 Comments
1. WhyamInotsurprised?:Mr. Owens, you are correct in your assessment that statistically, the more guns that are “out & about” in concealed carry mode, the more likelihood of accidents, including accidental discharge.
However, you seem to blame everything on training. What I think should get even more attention is gun and ammunition design. Why does a round go off when a gun is dropped? Is it a defect in the design of the round, of the gun? Statistics on the brand and type of ammo and guns need to be collected in these instances to determine correlation for further investigation.
What about test taking or proficiency demonstration for renewal of C&C permits? Maybe regular testing will keep this issue “front & center” of those toting weapons around. I, like you, find it hard to believe someone could become cavalier about carrying and storing a gun simply because it becomes “routine.” There is nothing routine about, to me.
Also, I believe responsible ownership means teaching family members about weapons, how they operate, what they can do, how to use them by actual shooting at a range, and handling and storage. Spending time like this, quality time, can probably avoid many disasters.
It only makes sense that safety’s are always on “SAFE” and that a holster have some kind of retention device to prevent a gun from falling out in various angles such as illustrated in your article.
Americans need to get back to using common sense and stop being lazy. Carrying is both a privilege and a responsibility to be taken extremely seriously for their own safety, the safety of family and friends, and the public in general.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:12 am 2. DavidN:I’ll agree with you that we need to address this issue, but there are many many more incompetent drivers on the road, and they kill thousands every year. No one says anything about this. I mean outside of drunk driving—those eating while driving, fighting with their children/spouses, talking on cell phones, falling asleep, etc. You have to wonder about people, and what they’ll consider important or not.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:20 am 3. fear Obama:I agree,
people need to be better trained with the use of firearms esp. right to carry.
But even experienced riflemen make mistakes.
1967-
Buddy of mine pulled his M-16 across the front seat of the personnel carrier we were riding.
Safety pulled to automatic and the fabric caught the trigger.
Bad enough to put a body bag around an enemy inflicted casualty but a self inflicted death is worse.
But never forget-
surgeons kill 98,000 people under their knives each year.
So your are 10,000 times more safe with me and my weapon than you are in a hospital.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:38 am 4. Sassenach:At minimum, a thumb-break strap should be REQUIRED for concealed carry. Nobody should be planning on playing quick-draw McGraw anyway.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:54 am 5. Die Fledermaus:An accidental discharge is just that, accidental. Their incidence will rise along with a rise in the number of firearms being carried, regardless of training, and such a coincident increase is statistically moot. Foolish conduct, however, is a separate phenomenon, and there’s little reason to conclude there’s more of it among the ranks of civilians than among law enforcement. For every anecdotal story about a civilian involved in stupid firearms incidents, there are five or ten of LE involvement in events at least as stupid.
Decades of familiarity with LE and military have persuaded me that overconfidence in LE firearms training is unjustified. One’s intellect and aptitude are determinative of how safely a firearm will be carried or how wisely a firearm will be used. LE’s typical personality profile and history provide scant reason to expect more responsible conduct from its officers than from the average concealed carry permit holder.
You stated in your article that carrying a firearm has made you more vigilant, more polite, in general more aware of your responsibilities. This is as it should be, and as it is for most people. Whether that will change over time is more a function of who you are than any training you may or may not have received. Accidents happen both to civilians and LE. Stupid incidents happen more frequently to LE than to civilians on a per capita basis. Civilians, however, are far less able or motivated to cover them up as is LE. LE would be among the last population cohorts I’d use in justifying a need of more training for firearms permit holders.
You are responsible for your own conduct. Attempting to bring holster manufacturers, training or certifying authorities, firearms manufacturers, or any other party into culpability is misguided. “Sorting it out” on our own is how nature works. If you’ve got enough on the ball, you do it better and faster than someone who doesn’t. If you don’t, you don’t, and pointing fingers elsewhere changes nothing about that.
Jul 17, 2009 - 3:36 am 6. Rob from Denver:Anyone that chooses to carry a concealed weapon assumes the responsibility that comes with that choice. If they meet the legal requirements, then abuse of that choice is their problem. Prosecute them for their mistakes. They will receive no sympathy from me, and I do carry on a regular basis.
Personally, I refresh my training on a regular basis, because I do take it seriously.
If you forget you have a weapon when you drop your pants to squat, well, you are just a nit. No amount of training can prevent one from being stupid or forgetful.
I am greatly concerned that the training requirements not become so onerous that it becomes an effective bar to the exercise of a CCW permit.
Stupid is as stupid does. Sorry, it happens. Prosecute said stupids for being careless and move on. They have no defense at all for a negligent discharge. Every bullet that leaves that gun is *your* responsibility. Deal with it, or leave the weapon at home.
But please don’t assume stupidity or negligence on the part of CCW holders, as a matter of course. Most of us are responsible and careful, usually more so than those that exercise equivalently dangerous privileges such as driving, chain saws, oxyacetylene torches, marriage and voting.
Jul 17, 2009 - 3:53 am 7. Old Soldier:Agree with #1 – Training is important but so is equipment. A pistol good enough to carry should never go off when dropped. On the other hand, she was obviously carrying in an unsafe manner.
Was she carrying loaded and cocked with the safety off? We could debate whether it’s appropriate to even carry with a round in the chamber of an automatic.
Jul 17, 2009 - 4:25 am 8. Broadsword:Bob, nice pic of the CZ-97. Big boolits. Sassy, you tell us what nobody should be planning, then please tell us what everybody should be planning, and how you know this. Do you also know other things about everyone? For example, what is the Tueller drill? What distance can someone running towards you with a knife travel in 1.5 seconds? How much time does it take to draw and fire at said person? You get my point…?
Jul 17, 2009 - 5:22 am 9. Jack in Silver Spring:All told, there are very few accidental deaths in the US because of guns. Indeed, the last time I looked, there were more deaths from boating accidents then from gun accidents. What must be weighed in the balance is the benefit of concealed carry vs. the cost. John Lott Jr. has repeatedly shown that on balance the benefits do outweigh the costs.
Guns, like most things (cars, boats, bathtubs, doctors, airplanes etc.), come with benefits as well as costs. To concentrate on just a few outliers, as Mr. Owens does, is akin to discussing the number of times people die or are injured in accidents due to **** (fill in the blank). It happens but we accept the accidents and injuries because of the benefits.
Should we continually retrain on how to use guns? Sure – as often as we go for retraining on how to drive.
Jul 17, 2009 - 5:56 am 10. Hunter:A friend in Spain was the driver/bodyguard of a Spanish army colonel in San Sebastian in northern Spain during the worst years of the the Basque terrorist group ETA’s attacks on Spanish military and police. Think 70-80s. He was driving the colonel to Madrid on official business. He didn’t usually carry a handgun, but on this trip he was obiged to carry one. At a rest stop he and the colonel went into the bathroom to relieve themselves and as my friend wiggled and squirmed to get his gun [I couldn't resist, "this is my rifle, this is my gun, this one's for fighting, this one's for fun"] in the right position, the pistol fell into the urinal. The colonel just shook his head in disbelief and remarked that he’d never seen anything like this before. So it can happen anywhere.
Jul 17, 2009 - 5:57 am 11. BillH:Accidental discharges? No. >Negligent< discharges. If your firearm goes off at a time you do not intend, or pointed at something you don't intend to shoot, then it is NOT an accident. You were negligent.
That said, training when you get a ccw permit is a great idea but not all states require it. Both of the state permits I have had some training on how to carry as part of the course, and one required actual range time. All good gun dealers will be more than happy to help you find a safe, secure personal solution to carrying concealed. Training is available everywhere but the smallest towns. Do I really need to suggest that range time and practice are also necessary?
After that, it is up to you. If your firearm hits the floor when you're in the restroom, you're doing it wrong. That is not an accident!
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:12 am 12. Delia:There will always be the ’stupid’ factor with anything.
What I don’t understand is: IF YOU WANT A FRIGGIN’ CONCEAL AND CARRY LICENCE WHY DON’T YOU GO THE EXTRA STEP AND TAKE SOME BASIC TRAINING WITH REGARDS TO YOUR GUNNNNNNNN?
Sorry for the all-caps. That’s my way of yelling. he-he
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:42 am 13. Harry Schell:I have had a carry permit for 9 years and taken various courses to improve my ability to safely and accurately use a weapon if the need arises. As other posters noted, attitude, practice and picking the right weapon are essentials in this.
Still, far more people die in hospital due to simple negligence (and in CA we have a nice new scandal how the nurse’s board utterly fails to deal timely, if at all, with clear misconduct). Far more people die in swimming pools, car crashes (which are rarely accidents but invovlve some kind of driver error), disease. And that includes all deaths related in anyway to firearms, not errors by those with carry permits.
Very few carry permits are revoked due to negligent or criminal use of a firearm. The alarm raised here is a false one.
Let’s also not forget the police department in Iowa in which two officers shot themselves in the leg while holstering their Glock service weapons with their fingers on the trigger. Within two seeks. The department of course blamed the Glock, and changed to Sigs. One of the very basic rules of handling a firearm is never to have your finger in the trigger well until you are ready to shoot…but these “professionals” forgot that rule. I like my 1911 because it has three safeties.
If the author is really interested in saving lives, why not write about these topics?
My conclusion is that he isn’t. He is troubled or opposed to people taking an active role in their own self-defense. Since Heller, new means need to be found to “control” gun owners by the civilian disarmament crowd.
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:58 am 14. L.Jay:Broadsword: BTW, the tueller drill demonstrates that a knife wielder can reach the subject from 7 yards in about 1.5 +/- seconds from a standing start, typically not enough time to draw & fire from concealment. That’s a topic for another forum. The fact remains that with CZ’s, 1911’s or other semi auto’s that can be carried cocked & locked or others with only a manual safety, a round in the chamber and no grip safety, it is possible to inadvertantly disengage the manual safety. At that point s_it happens.
As an NRA instructor I agree the curriculum could be beefed up in this area and there’s no reason to be defensive about it. It would make a worthwhile topic on an instructor’s forum. Clearly, as more people own and carry, more accidents will occur. Re-thinking conventional instruction with a view to expanding attention to such safety issues will serve us all well. Neubies are not always sufficiently aware of the potential of an accidental discharge or its consequences and some “old timers” of my acquaintance (law enforcement included) sometimes become complaicent.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:00 am 15. Clayton E. Cramer:I can’t argue that everyone should be well trained in carrying a gun. But there is an enormous range of training requirements out there. Washington State has had a non-discretionary concealed weapon permit system since 1961–and no training requirement. You would think if stupid stunts like these were common, and were the result of the no training requirement, it would have motivated some action from the Washington legislature by now.
From what I have seen, most of the stupid actions by permit holders (and there have been a few) aren’t correctable by training, but by more intelligence. And that’s hard to train.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:07 am 16. Sapwolf:When you examine the number of instances, it is so statistically low compared to automobile accidents, etc. that it shouldn’t even be on the radar yet.
It’s really a minor issue. However, I would like to see training classes include for time spent on concealing the weapon effectively along with having it pulled out and instantly ready to go.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:15 am 17. Delia:15. Clayton E. Cramer,
Yep. ‘Stupid’ can’t be discriminated against. lol
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:21 am 18. RE:It’s a personal responsibilty issue.
Training is great, and the more the better, but it doesn’t matter how much training you have if you get complacent and careless. There are a lot of stories of supposedly well trained cops shooting themselves.
If this is being raised as a politcal public safety issue, I’d much rather see the effort put into greater dangers – like illegal alien drunk drivers.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:30 am 19. JED:64,999,987 firearm owners killed no one yesterday.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:32 am 20. David C.:Armed and dangerous in a public restroom is delusional. To compliment Delia, “Stupid can not be outlawed or common sense made common.”
It might be helpful to add some perspective here.
What is the incidence of accidental discharge among all concealed carry permit holders? Anecdotal evidence holds no value, since we may easily find examples of careless behavior of all sorts causing injury in a variety of ways having nothing to do with firearms.
Your attempt to identify accidental discharge allegedly caused by lack of training may in fact speak to an agenda that has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with prohibition. If the benefit of having a certain number of citizens licensed to carry concealed weapons outweigh the inherent risk of accidental injury, that is certainly a factor to consider. If the risk is a tiny percentage and the benefit is considerable, then the incidence of accidental discharge is “acceptable,” whether we like it or not. Zero risk is never achievable without prohibition.
Human behavior, let’s be honest here, is riddled with misjudgment, error and failure. Handgun safety training may reduce but can never eliminate abject stupidity.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:32 am 21. Fred Beloit:#16 “Statistically low” is a phrase that has zero meaning to the enemies of the right to self-defense, the libruls. They believe that the sob-story of one teary individual on the front page of the NYT/WAPO is worth a thousand statistics. And, one fears, they are sometimes correct in this belief. The NRA should, and probably does, have a strategy to deal with the appeal of one emotion-driven story of a restless gun.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:55 am 22. KBL in ABQ:The rest of us need to concentrate when carrying. Focus, focus, focus.
“4. Sassenach:
At minimum, a thumb-break strap should be REQUIRED for concealed carry. Nobody should be planning on playing quick-draw McGraw anyway.”
Sorry, you know not of what you speak on two counts. There are many, well-designed holsters with retention devices that do not involve thumb-break straps. We don’t need your well meaning suggestion to legislate a less desirable retention device. As for the “quick-draw” comment, you must be sure that you or another person is in imminent danger of death or serious injury, and you must be quick enough and accurate enough to stop the attack. So, the speed with which you can “present” your firearm and put rounds on target may be essential. Sorry if I sound didactic. I am a concealed carry instructor and a retired Marine.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:58 am 23. Tim Mayhugh:Nice Anecdotes, lets see how many you can find involving POLICE OFFICERS? How about, Gil Kerlikowski, lost his gun and it was never recovered. How about the DEA agent that shot himself during a gun safety lecture after claimin he was the “only one” trained enough to handle a loaded gun? Or the Deputy that discharged a permit holders gun while checking it in at a courthouse. I have carried a gun every day for 13 years and never, i repeat NEVER, lost control of nor had a negligent discharg of said firearm. Get off you high horse chum. Accidents happen, They happen way more often to the “only ones” than too the rest of us.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:06 am 24. Will Farrugia:Quote: 4. Sassenach: At minimum, a thumb-break strap should be REQUIRED for concealed carry. Nobody should be planning on playing quick-draw McGraw anyway.End Quote.
Whisky Tango Foxtrot……Making ignorant comments like one quoted shows how and why people need to take training BEFOR they go and make comments on subjects on which they have NO understanding.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:07 am 25. robotech master:These are hardly new or really “overwhelming” problems. Cops are well known for shooting themselves and others by chance all the time… it happens. As 1. WhyamInotsurprised? pointed out alot has to due with bad luck in a gun failing or poor craftsmanship.
Ppl stab themselves to death along with all kinds of other ways of dieing… its life and thats just the way it is.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:08 am 26. Gary:I have had firearm safety drilled into my head since I was a kid. I am an “old guy” now, and have NEVER had an accidental discharge (of any kind-ha). While in the service, we were net allowed to carry a semi-auto hand cannon (1911A1) with a round in the chamber, and we were trained in defensive measures to allow us time to cycle a round into the chamber. That training remains with me to this day. When I carry my Glock Mod 22, I never have a round in the chamber. Never will.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:12 am 27. Toronto Girl:I have only had one occasion to utilize my carry weapon, and I only had to pull my shirt back and display the fact that I was carrying, in order to settle a young thug down.
The old axiom that young guys will fight, old guys will just shoot you is correct in most cases, though.
I just finished a 2-day firearm’s training course in Toronto. I didn’t even know that Canadians were allowed to own guns until very recently. Carrying a concealed weapon in Canada is illegal, loaded or not. It is also illegal to store our guns at home unless they are unloaded, locked up and stored separately from the ammo. I just hope that if someone breaks in to my apartment and tries to attack/rob me, he will be mindful of the law and allow me time to retrieve my gun, load it and shoot him.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:13 am 28. ohcomeon:Nobody would disagree that more firearms training is desireable but I know of no modern handgun that will fire when dropped. If there’s an exception, please clue me in but I’m pretty sure that any pistol that fires simply by being dropped or undergoing a shock of some kind would have to be virtually an antique.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:35 am 29. D S Craft:Pardon my ignorance on this subject – I know absolutely nothing about guns or the laws surrounding them. Why is the use and carrying of a gun aways framed in terms of ‘concealed’ carry and having a concealed carry permit. Is a permit required to carry a gun in plain view? If not, is this not done because of the social ramifications of walking around town with a gun on your hip?
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:40 am 30. Jim Baker:Another stupid hit piece on firearm ownership. Why? I have better odds of being struck by lightning than I do of being victimized by a firearm accident.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:41 am 31. Pete Neal:No one seems to have mentioned another alternative for non experienced CCW holders – carry a revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer – at the range you would normally be using these self defense weapons for, either 4 or 5 live rounds should be sufficient…no worries about a safety either
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:50 am 32. KBL in ABQ:29. D S Craft:
The lawful right to “open carry” depends on the laws of you state. NM is an open carry state; however, open carry may be viewed by some as “brandishing” and other citizens unaware of the law may call the police if they see a fellow private citizen carrying a firearm. So, discretion suggests concealed carry as the best option. No reason to make folks nervous, and you’ll have it if you need it.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:51 am 33. robotech master:To 29. D S Craft
Some states have open carry law which basically anyone even without a permit may carry openly.
Most states forbid open carry of handgun unless in the process of using it.
Most ppl for defense want a concealed carry.
Frankly I think open carry should be legal in all 50 states and only be restricted in some areas(such as police stations and other areas such as that.)
I’d love to go walking around my college with my ar 15 slung over my back… would make “debating” so much more “interesting” hehe.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:54 am 34. Flipper415:To D S Craft
Unconcealed (otherwise known as “Open Carry”) is allowed in some states but like all gun laws it varies from state to state and city to city.
In most cases an Open Carry makes you an immediate target to any felons and makes many of the general population very nervous.
I was told by a friend from the Boston area that even though open carry is allowed in MA the police will cite you for “disorderly conduct”.
Jul 17, 2009 - 9:02 am 35. Bohemond:I agree with Gary: although *some* designs can be carried with a round chambered very safely, it’s not a practice to be encouraged, because most pistol designs are capable of unintended discharge, safeties notwithstanding. Carrying an M1911 or M9 cocked-n-locked in a war zone is one thing. Carrying it that way around Des Moines is quite another.
Especially not with revolvers. Yes, I know about hammer-blocks. But face it- what’s the point? Pulling the trigger on a DA or cocking a SA will cycle up a round- and nobody should ever, ever carry a revolver cocked.
Jul 17, 2009 - 9:23 am 36. NCBob:Training for those who carry concealed weapons is absolutely the key! In Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, Newark and other inner-cities across the country, 100s of young men are killed or injured by folks who have never had a moment’s weapons training and are carrying concealed weapons. And, more importantly, this lack of weapons training has a much heavier impact on minority victims.
Jul 17, 2009 - 9:30 am 37. Gypsy Pilot:Lack of positive control of the weapon is negligence, the article indicates that the folks were negligent in their responsibility. Does this mean we need to legislate more requirements on folks who carry weapons? Absolutely not. A retaining strap on a holster is not the only method of securing a handgun, my primary holster does not have a retaining strap. I am especially careful in situations like mentioned above.
ohcomeon-I agree, I am not aware of a modern handgun that will discharge when dropped.
Will (#24)- “Whiskey Tango Foxtrot”…excellent
DS Craft- the states legislate their own requirements for open vs. concealed carry. The only states that don’t legislate concealed carry permits are Vermont and Alaska. The rest require a permit to conceal. Some states don’t allow open carry at all, others don’t have any restrictions at all on open carry. Example: the State of Virginia has no law prohibiting the open carrying of a handgun (except in specific areas like govt. buildings etc) and requires training for and issue of a concealed carry permit to conceal the weapon. Some states (Illinois among them) are in direct violation of the 2nd amendment and won’t issue concealed carry permits. Hope this helps.
All- It’s a pointless article that doesn’t provide balance of the issue in relation to safety and statistics. It’s good for discussion but the Moonbats will only use it for emotional ammunition.
Jul 17, 2009 - 9:33 am 38. Clayton E. Cramer:“If there’s an exception, please clue me in but I’m pretty sure that any pistol that fires simply by being dropped or undergoing a shock of some kind would have to be virtually an antique.”
Not correct. Most modern pistol designs do have a firing pin block that prevents the firing pin from moving forward and striking the primer unless the trigger is pulled at the same time. (This doesn’t prevent an accidental discharge if you were to stuff a pistol into a holster, and something in the way pressed back on the trigger–and you had the manual safety off. Possible, but unlikely, and part of why the author has two examples that he can point to, even though millions of Americans carry a gun regularly.)
However, there are a number of pistols out there where this is not the case. Still, it takes a combination of factors to make the older designs fire unintentionally, often a combination of dropping a pistol muzzle up or down onto a hard surface, and a weak firing pin spring. It can happen, but it’s quit rare–rather like automobile accidents caused by brake lines failing. Yes, it happens, but relative to intentional sabotage (someone cuts the brake lines), driver error, or DUI, pretty rare.
Jul 17, 2009 - 9:35 am 39. Blarty Blarckleblart:Another stupid hit piece on firearm ownership.
Advocating training for people carrying concealed is a “stupid hit piece on firearm ownership”? That’s the kind of statement that makes ordinary Americans think of gun nuts as, well, nuts.
Jul 17, 2009 - 10:26 am 40. White helmet:All the more reason to ban cancealed carry except for off duty police officers. The proliferation of concealed carry has lead to old style western “draw” encounters on golf courses and in parking lots. In Orange County California, the recipients of a good many permits were local pols, pals of the pols and people who pulled them on golf courses.
Isn’t it idiotic to allow people to drag guns into theatres, markets and parks?. Its not a matter of training: its allowing people to carry them in the first place. NY crime has dropped and it has a very tough GC law. DC crime soars because they are in the death grip of a unionized police department where it near impossible to fire anyone.
Keep a gun at home if you must. Leave it home too.
Jul 17, 2009 - 10:41 am 41. A Concealed Carry Person:There are several issues brought up in this article. Most firearms have some type of safety interlock that prevents inadvertent firing when dropped on a hammer with a round in the chamber, obviously the guns involved in these incidents did not. There was no information in the article to ascertain whether they owners of these guns were aware of this problem. There was also the issue of holsters. Many holsters are available for concealed carry that totally secure the firearm, yet do not impede a person who needs to use the firearm. How much exposure to holsters did these people have. Obviously anyone exercising concealed carry should be aware of all limitations on their equipment.
There is insufficient information in the article to tell whether these are training issues (basic lack of knowledge) or carelessness. Experienced LEO’s also have their share of problems such as taking firearm out of the holster when using a restroom, and then departing the area with the firearm where they left it. They are also noted for shooting themselves in the foot or leg as they withdraw their firearms (always keep the trigger finger clear of the trigger until you are ready to use it).
Its easy to draw rash conclusions, but it is much preferable to have all the information available before you throw rocks in any particular direction. The article, while interesting, is lacking in information to draw any substantive conclusions.
Jul 17, 2009 - 10:58 am 42. wrg:40. White helmet:DC crime soars because they are in the death grip of a unionized police department where it near impossible to fire anyone.
Bull…. currently the only people that have guns in DC are the cops and criminals. And the cops are out numbered and out gunned. I live in VA and have a CCW because when seconds matter the cops are minutes away.
Jul 17, 2009 - 11:33 am 43. Chuck Pelto:TO: Bob Owen, et al.
RE: Risk Analysis, Please
Tell US, Bob….
….how many times does this sort of thing happen?
And, after taking/giving some interesting classes in weapons safety…..
…..why is it that none of them dealt with the odd shot from a dropped weapon?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 17, 2009 - 11:48 am 44. shau-jan:P.S. Or was it you were up against a deadline and couldn’t think of anything better to tilt at?
the vast majority of the gun carrying population(this includes the police)are woefully undertrained.bullets and range time are expensive,but the emerging simulater tecnology looks promising.
good article.
Jul 17, 2009 - 11:50 am 45. Chuck Pelto:TO: wrg, et al.
RE: Heh
Shhhhhiiiiiiitttttt!
According to a comrade-in-arms who currently works on a major metro PD, DC is one of the few communities that HIRES ex-felons on its police force.
So, in a number of cases, the cops ARE ‘criminals’.
And we wonder why they are so sorry at solving crimes….let alone preventing them.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 17, 2009 - 12:31 pm 46. wrg:[The Truth will out.....]
45. Chuck Pelto:
H–l they ELECTED a convicted crack addict as mayor (Marion “the b|tch set me up” Barry”) and again to city council. He is now under probation for tax evasion.
Jul 17, 2009 - 12:46 pm 47. Fred Beloit:Why does White Helmet call him/herself White Helmet? Is WH an MP? Nah, just a troll who is against others exercising their right to self-defense, which is not only a constitutional right but a natural (self-evident) right. Strange folks these libruls
Jul 17, 2009 - 12:50 pm 48. robotech master:To 44. shau-jan
I would agree… a police officer is only slightly better trained at using firearms then picking a random person off the street. Realistically only the military and most of all the combat arms side of the military has any serious training in firearms. Your basic infantry soldiers at a minimum is trained as well as most SWAT team members.
It wasn’t always that way for police through. In the 1940-50 and even 60s police were reasonable trained in firearms… however as time as past most ppl due to complete bans have little to no experience with firearms and get less and less training.
The simple fact is police should never be viewed as anything more then full time citizens… the fact that they are now considered “above the ppl” is a very dangerous ideology.
Jul 17, 2009 - 12:57 pm 49. Rick554:This looks to me like just another anti-gun hit piece to get us all ready for when Obama tries to cancel the 2nd Amendment. I expect to see many more in the months ahead.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:03 pm 50. Delia:I guess that by next year we should have 4 incidents like this bathroom shooting. Gee, danger everywhere. And not 1 word describing crimes NOT happening thanks to concealed-carry licensees. Anyone else wonder why??
Doesnt fit the agenda.
Voila:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yBwHN9GbsU
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:04 pm 51. Clayton E. Cramer:“Advocating training for people carrying concealed is a “stupid hit piece on firearm ownership”? That’s the kind of statement that makes ordinary Americans think of gun nuts as, well, nuts.”
Advocating stricter standards based on two incidents over six months in a country where millions (probably tens of millions) of people are allowed to carry concealed seems a bit misfocused.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:25 pm 52. Clayton E. Cramer:“All the more reason to ban cancealed carry except for off duty police officers. The proliferation of concealed carry has lead to old style western “draw” encounters on golf courses and in parking lots. In Orange County California, the recipients of a good many permits were local pols, pals of the pols and people who pulled them on golf courses.”
Care to give some examples of those “draw” encounters on golf courses and in parking lots by people with concealed carry permits?
Now, Orange County is a good example–for our side. Issuance of concealed weapon permits in California (at least in the counties where you might actually need to be armed) is a terribly corrupt process, exactly the way that gun control groups have requested. Don’t confuse political hacks getting permits with decent people.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:29 pm 53. Blarty Blarckleblart:This looks to me like just another anti-gun hit piece to get us all ready for when Obama tries to cancel the 2nd Amendment.
So true. Bob “Confederate Yankee” Owens loves Obama and hates guns.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:39 pm 54. Blarty Blarckleblart:Advocating stricter standards based on two incidents over six months in a country where millions (probably tens of millions) of people are allowed to carry concealed seems a bit misfocused.
You’re right. We should definitely wait for the problem to get worse.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:41 pm 55. Clayton E. Cramer:“According to a comrade-in-arms who currently works on a major metro PD, DC is one of the few communities that HIRES ex-felons on its police force.”
That was an unfortunate consequence of their rush to hire officers in the early 1990s–not intentional. At one point, 1.5% of DC’s officers had felony convictions: for drug dealing, even for murder. Eventually, these were located and terminated.
The bigger problem was that in their insistence on hiring a police force of DC residents they ended up hiring a lot of marginally literate officers, producing police reports that made it almost impossible to prosecute many criminal cases.
And while I won’t argue that the gun control law they passed in 1976 caused their murder rates to almost triple, it certainly didn’t help any.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:41 pm 56. Chuck Pelto:TO: Clayton E. Cramer, et al.
RE: As I Was Saying….
Owens apparently no grasp of Risk Analysis. Either that or a hidden agenda that has just been ‘exposed’.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:44 pm 57. Clayton E. Cramer:[The Truth will out....]
“Gee, danger everywhere. And not 1 word describing crimes NOT happening thanks to concealed-carry licensees.”
For a simple reason: those are far more common. See here.
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:44 pm 58. White helmet:Cramer @ 52: “Care to give some examples of those “draw” encounters on golf courses and in parking lots by people with concealed carry permits?”
OK: People v Yi, San bernadino County, Calif: In 2005, a Mr. Yi was playing golf at the Los Serranos Golf & Country Club in Chino Hills when he hit his ball toward a fairway where a foursome was playing, according to prosecutors, then drew his gun and twice threatened the men after one of them refused to retrieve his ball. Mr. Yi held a concealed carry permit issued by the Orange County Sheriff. (Los Angeles Times, August 2005).
Jul 17, 2009 - 1:59 pm 59. White helmet:This is a good one too:
Lubbock, TX • Octber 18, 2008. Tye Burke, 25, was arrested and faces felony charges of aggravated assault with a deadly weapon after pulling a gun on another parent at a children’ssoccer game. Burke is alleged to have pointed his handgun at the victim’s head.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:05 pm 60. Ken:Accidents happen, get used to it. Removing all risk from life is a Utopian lib principle. Requiring “better training” only opens the door for more restrictions on guns. I have been trained and it was excellent. I also learned more on my own time. The fact is even highly trained people have made mistakes and had accidents. We need to stop using anecdotes as proof of an epidemic. Successful defenses by firearms far outweigh the drawbacks. Grow up.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:20 pm 61. White helmet:Ken 1t 60:
Gee Ken, I don’t want to get used to it.
I’m glad you had the time to massacre some paper targets and call yourself “trained.” I keep remembering though, that ATF guy on youtube who huffed to a whole class he was a “professional” and the only one qualified to fire a weapon–then promptly shot himself in the foot.
I am not so keen on being plugged by some soccer mom packing a piece or by some armed judge smailes on the golf course.
The cherry mood of a blitzed driver is not advantage enough to outweigh the havoc they cause, so we forbid drunk driving even by “experienced” drunks who can hold their liquor.
The quaint idea that only licensed pilots guide metal tubes loaded with people and kerosene above cities is another lib idea I rather like.
Add to them the “lib principle” that the fewer people padding about with pieces falling out in the john, drawn on the links and waved at soccer games the better.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:35 pm 62. Fred Beloit:Read White Helmet the MP, thanks for your service, at #58 and 59.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:36 pm 63. Fantom:See, this is what I was talking about. These libruls favor anecdotal evidence over data. 50K or so annual deaths on the road are quite OK with these folks. But lets talk about two incidents, which by the way are crimes, and subject to punishment, and try to make a case against the right of sel-defense.
“Fred Beloit:#16 “Statistically low” is a phrase that has zero meaning to the enemies of the right to self-defense, the libruls. They believe that the sob-story of one teary individual on the front page of the NYT/WAPO is worth a thousand statistics.”
Someone who does a Barney Fife, and accidently discharges his weapon, should get the same penelty that someone who starts a car in gear would get.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:37 pm 64. Fred Beloit:One doesn’t have to discharge a pistol to commit a crime in my state, one need only unlawfully draw it.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:57 pm 65. shau-jan:48.robotechmaster.i tend to give law enforcement a little leeway on this,they have to be prepared for so many different situations(99.9% not involving firearms)a pistol as a primary weapon is harder to use under stress than a longarm and requires a high degree of practice to stay sharp.civilians only have to worry about taking care of themselves,there is simply no excuse not to be trained if you CCW.
40.58.59.isolated incidents,florida has allowed concealed carry since 1996…show me the all the reports of the “dirty harry” syndrome there.remember,there are over 500,000 permit holders,and millions more with out them possessing firearms in their cars/homes.
Jul 17, 2009 - 2:57 pm 66. Fred Beloit:MP White Helmet. Will you be surprised to learn that golf balls strike more people by great magnitudes that bullets on golf courses? Don’t be afraid, get right out there and shoot that 135. No worries.
Jul 17, 2009 - 3:02 pm 67. shau-jan:OT.barbra boxer(d-ca) getting a heavy dose of reality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNFWRRaTL5I&feature=player_embedded
cheered me right up.
Jul 17, 2009 - 3:26 pm 68. Delia:I have a unique perspective on all of this…
My mother kept a loaded gun in a high shelf in her closet. I, being the precocious snot that I was [and in the care of a hapless babysitter], managed to prop myself on a chair and get the gun and ‘play’ with it. My mother came home to find me ‘playing’ with her loaded gun and even pointing it at my sister. UGH.
Flash forward years later, my daughter is 4 years old and my sister is driving my car with us in it. We come to a stop-light and a drunk driver [who's license was REVOKED] rammed into the back of our care and shoved the front of our car into the truck in front of us. We had minor injuries [I was and still am a vigilant seat-belt wearer and that's what saved our lives].
So? Do we outlaw cars because there are @ssholes who will mow you down or drive drunk?
Again, and I reiterate, there will always be stupid. There also will be psychotic, drunk and drugged.
There are always going to be risks with anything in life. The parachute might fail, the condom might break, your breast implants might explode [j/k].
Anyway, I’d be curious about the statistics of people being killed or injured by drunk drivers vs. being killed by an ‘accidental’ gun discharge.
Jul 17, 2009 - 3:49 pm 69. tom:I’ve got a moronic in-law that works for the HSA. Puts his loaded 9mm on the counter everyday after work and leaves it there. Says no worries, the kids know not to touch it. Umm.. they are 3 and 1.. only a matter of time till we get the call…….
Jul 17, 2009 - 3:57 pm 70. myth buster:During a firearms training session last summer, I was taught four things:
Jul 17, 2009 - 4:14 pm 71. White helmet:1. Treat EVERY weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point your weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your safety on until you are ready to engage.
4. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
Fred at 66 and 62:
I get it! You favor legalized pot and gay marriage because there is no data showing a volume of accidents due to either! And if we’re going to allow people to carry guns to soccer games, and risk a few accidents as Ken at 60 says, you have no problem with someone bringing an unarmed companion of the same sex smoking some weed so a socer game. Right? Or is this generous tolerance for other people getting clipped by gun toting pedestrians limited just to things you like to do?
Delia: (frequent voice of reason): the parachute and condom involve situations in which people place themsleves knowing the risks; being at a soccer game or on the links and having some pissed off guy pull a gun, or being clipped from one falling in the next stall, is not any part of my choice. Its imposed on me by someone who packs a piece into a bathroom stall or a soccer game. I hardly see why I ought to risk losing a kidney for someone who wants to do that. So you?
Jul 17, 2009 - 4:25 pm 72. gcblues:all seems pretty crazy to me. both sides. use a little basic logic here.
logic. those that reason that only cops should carry in effect are saying only the state and criminals should carry. that is not safer, gimme a break. it is just a further step in our current road to serfdom.
logic. obviously the more good citizens carrying and operating accident and crazy free in every part of our society, including schools, malls, and soccer game, the safer we all will be.
logic. no regulation for training or other gymnastic state hoops to jump through are every going to create a accident and crazy free populace.
well maybe, just maybe, it is because like pollution, health care, education etc etc etc conceal carry problems are not dealt with well by regulation. indeed, this country was never founded to use regulations to solve problems.
logic. why leave out the only legitimate way to deal with this and almost all civil issues. civil tort law. there should be strict liability for all a citizen’s actions in society. maybe if our ant farming dems and shrubs were not so focused on how to control people they coulda all this time been working out these issues with civil tort law. what is or is not negligence. what is monetary, what is criminal liability. etc etc etc.
Jul 17, 2009 - 4:31 pm 73. Rick:having owned a rather broad range of firearms and had a conceal permit. i will tell you carrying is a clarifying experience. most sane people are in no hurry to shoot anyone legally or not. after all who needs to make the news and be sued
regulatory requirements of training, type of weaponry, restrictions where when and how, ammo types, blow your nose suck your toes government ant farming bs never fixed a thing in any problem. get real.
just require strict individual responsibility and live with it. i think you would quickly find improvements on both sides. remember ain’t nuttin perfect.
now before you respond with something stupid like. logic. the fewer guns the fewer accidents. understand ADs, or accidental discharges are fewer and fewer while guns quantities in citizens hands are growing faster and faster and faster.
lastly, it is interesting to me. i go to California, armed robbery abounds. go up to concealville Oregon, no one hardly ever robs a 711 with a gun. criminals are stupid, but they ain’t dumb.
i am very interested in these guns that discharged when dropped. this should never happen, even if the thing is thrown against the wall.
does anybody have additional info on this?
Jul 17, 2009 - 4:40 pm 74. Delia:70. White helmet,
I’m not sure where you were going with that? Do you have a solution for stupid?
lol
Jul 17, 2009 - 5:00 pm 75. Delia:P.S. Laws only apply to law abiding citizens. All others [read: criminals] need not apply to said ‘regulations’ and ‘restrictions’ which makes the point of trying to disarm Americans moot.
Jul 17, 2009 - 5:04 pm 76. Typos_R_Us:“seem to forget that it is not a benign accessory such as a cell phone or wallet that poses no threat.”
I could kill you with a cell phone OR a wallet if that is what I wanted to do. You are about as clueless as I have every seen. PEOPLE are dangerous, weapons are just accessories.
Stop the spin and find a few stories were a conceled weapon has saved a life. I’ll bet there are more then two;
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/02/24/armed-woman-ejects-home-invaders-from-her-house/
Alta Vista delivered 624,000 results. Obviously, there would be duplicates, but not 312,000 of them.
Like all Liberals you need to learn that life isn’t perfect and there are no perfect solutions.
Perfection is a goal, not an achievement.
All solutions create more problems.
Th trade-off here is a small caliber bullet in the leg against hundreds of thousands of rapes, murders and robberies prevented. I call that a deal.
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:03 pm 77. Gozer the Carpathian:Personally I’d rather carry in a shoulder holster but that’s me. No pants issue there.
Seriously though it doesn’t hurt to bring up how to conceal carry your gun in these classes. On the other hand it’s not so big a deal as we should really even worry about it. I’m more worried about the morons on the road eating or texting while driving. They’ll kill ya more readily than a poor concealed carry person.
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:22 pm 78. Shef Rogers:These gun threads are great. Every one provides years of material for future research in abnormal psychology.
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:37 pm 79. White helmet:Delia: “I’m not sure where you were going with that? Do you have a solution for stupid?”
Let’s leave Fred Beloit out of this. But a solution for stupid as it involves concealed carry permits? Easy: no concealed carry permits. Load your home with whatever you want but no toting them outside.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:04 pm 80. KBL in ABQ:White helmet,
I have sat behind you in the movie theater and was nearby when you walked out to your car in the parking lot. I’ve been in the bleachers watching the same soccer match. I’m the guy who stops on the lonely stretch of highway to see if you need help with the flat tire. You probably saw me in the parking lot at Home Depot checking my shopping list, but you didn’t know I had a gun. You couldn’t know. I am not a thug or a bully, but I am vigilant. I was a Marine for 30 years, and I still practice with my concealed handgun at the range two or three times a week. If I see you getting your brains beat out by a parking lot mugger, do you want me to intervene, or shall I just call 911?
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:11 pm 81. shau-jan:79.” Easy: no concealed carry permits. Load your home with whatever you want but no toting them outside.”
how about NO:
http://www.nraila.org/Issues/FactSheets/Read.aspx?ID=18
live with it,sheeple….BWWWWHAHAHAHA!!
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:35 pm 82. RKV:Don’t feed the trolls please folks. Your call, but it’s obvious to me.
Jul 17, 2009 - 7:53 pm 83. WhyamInotsurprised?:I take the authors point that people carrying concealed weapons should never become complacent about doing so. The anti-second amendment types will use each and every instance to try to take away these rights and privileges.
The argument that the statistics of accidental discharge of concealed carry is so low as to not even warrant being on the radar is not true if you value the right to have permit to carry. Face it. The forces working to take away rights are attacking from all angles. Knocking down one domino will only make it easier for them to knock down others, so everyone owning guns needs to be vigilant.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:46 pm 84. Rick:It is more negligent discharge than accidental discharge.
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:54 pm 85. whiskey:I have been a concealed carrier for over thirty years.
I have never had a firearm discharge.
You should not buy a $10.00 HOLSTER FOR A $600.00 hand gun.
Properly designed firearms will NOT go off when dropped onto hard surfaces. California requires by law all firearms sold new in the state by manufacturers to undergo that testing. Modern 1911 Pattern firearms use either firing pin safeties connected to the trigger (Colt post 1980 models) which are engaged except when the trigger is pulled, or connected to the Grip Safety (Kimber). Others like Springfield Armory use titanium firing pins that lack enough inertial force to fire the pistol if dropped onto hard surfaces.
It’s quite true that careful selection of quality holster that retains and conceals the firearm is as important as the training and firearm itself. Including selection of a “system” of matched firearm and holster appropriate to the CCW’s permit holder lifestyle. Including dress, risk profile, and so on. A suit coat conceals more than t-shirt and shorts.
Few folks are able to conceal a CZ-97, that gun is huge.
Negligent discharges, are as noted, far more common per capita with police than CCW citizens. More people with CCWs simply require more quality training, including appropriate gun and holster selection.
Jul 17, 2009 - 11:10 pm 86. Caestal:Folks, don’t over-react to the article. He is just saying that it would be a good thing to include training on the issue in with training for Conceal Carry, which is pretty obvious to me. I don’t get any sense of “OMG, we are all gonna die, ban the Gunz!” from the article.
And yes, “the Moonbats will only use it for emotional ammunition,” but then they will just make stuff up as they go or misquote other rational arguments anyways, so you can’t really take them into consideration when crafting an article.
Jul 18, 2009 - 12:41 am 87. skatzbert:KBL @ 80: Re: White Helmet
//If I see you getting your brains beat out by a parking lot mugger, do you want me to intervene, or shall I just call 911?//
KBL: Don’t intervene. That would be the natural consequence if W.H. had his way on this issue. Call 911, that will be a solution to ‘stupid’.
Jul 18, 2009 - 3:00 am 88. Spindok:So what is the big deal?
I own firearms. I took, along with my son – now 18 years old, the NRA course required for a CC permit where I live. I am not comfortable with requirements here. Let alone all of those who do not care about such things and carry loaded weapons anyway.
I just came back from Israel. They laugh when Americans flip out at the sight of a dozen 18-20 year old soldiers in training lined up at McDonalds with loaded military rifles slung down their backs. They say “at this stage you eat, sleep everything with your rifle. You are like children to be excited at this.”
To carry with a civilian permit there is far more diffcult than it would be here.
We do need a better system here. I do not want to carry a loaded weapon to the grocery store.
Spindok
Jul 18, 2009 - 6:25 am 89. Fred Beloit:It’s just too bad that Obama hasn’t yet provided for military policepersons like White Helmet to be on every street corner protecting us against all those criminals and nuts out there. Until that happy day, I’ll protect myself with my little Para 45. White Helmet, thanks again for your service.
Jul 18, 2009 - 6:59 am 90. D. Marti:People against right to carry laws are simply misguided. If they really cared about violent crime they would push for existing laws to be enforced instead of trying to take away someone else’s rights as in the right to self defense.
As far as safety features on handguns they can be multiple as in the case of a 1911-A1 which has 5 that I can recall easily. one, the most important is the person posessing it.
For your reading pleasure I have the link listing the handguns that have passed(or not) the california drop test.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
Jul 18, 2009 - 8:00 am 91. Wolla Dalbo:Inevitably, it seems to me, the more people there are carrying, the more there will be stupid and not so stupid accidental discharges. The fact that such a big deal is made when such an accidental discharge occurs indicates to me that this is a rare thing, not a common one.
From what I recall, nary a word about the actual mechanics of concealed carry—pros and cons of inside the belt, outside, paddle, shoulder holster, small of the back, cross draw, concealing clothing, belts etc. etc. or any advice as to which particular brands and/or models might deserve my attention–in my concealed carry class several years ago; taught at NRA headquarters, no less! I presume they viewed this as the most basic of courses, and expected you to take it from there and research things yourself, ask others for advice, or take other courses.
Some handguns are more prone to fire when dropped than others, some holster types and particular models are more secure than others; all this should be taken into account when making buying decisions and some situations, actions or body positions are more likely to result in a weapon accidentally coming out of it’s holster than others.
The bottom line, though, it that there are a lot of stupid and careless people out there, and that our society encourages that carelessness, stupidity and lack of personal responsibility. I would expect those applying for a concealed carry permit to–on average—be more responsible than the average person, but, then again, there was no test for “personal responsibility,” “IQ” or even “sanity” that was part of our application process.
Jul 18, 2009 - 9:27 am 92. Dave K.:The second amendment is not there for your self-protection,
it’s a Darwinian tool of selection.
Hey, it rhymes!
Jul 18, 2009 - 9:35 am 93. newscaper:I utterly disagree about this being a ‘hit piece’ on gun ownership. Those claims are moronic.
Since when is expecting personal responsibility in exercising an individual right a ‘liberal’ pov?
Not only is the article author’s point principled, its also very practical wrt the larger issue, as reducing the number of gun accidents due to ignorance or foolishness *defends* the flank of the pro-2nd Amendment movement by not giving its enemies free ammo.
Its similar to the way the Republicans (the few with the balls to speak up) need to be careful in defending free market capitalism so they don’t just look like they’re defending actual corrupt corporate fatcats.
Jul 18, 2009 - 9:59 am 94. Fred Beloit:“…so they don’t just look like they’re defending actual corrupt corporate fatcats.”
Do you mean the guys who used to provide all those jobs?
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:20 am 95. shau-jan:90.d marti.thanks for the link,any modern pistol that fails a drop test is junk,and not worth trusting your life to.
92.”The second amendment is not there for your self-protection”
that is like saying the first amendment doesn’t protect your idiotic statement above.read the personal views on the matter of the people who wrote the document,putz.
93.newscaper”Not only is the article author’s point principled, its also very practical wrt the larger issue, as reducing the number of gun accidents due to ignorance or foolishness *defends* the flank of the pro-2nd Amendment movement by not giving its enemies free ammo.”
yup.
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:53 am 96. RAH:There have been a few reported cases in the last year where a cop had a gun and it bounced in the toilet stall and fired so this is not a problem only with the CCW public.
Retention and a good belt. I know that my cell phone has fallen on the floor many times when clipped to my belt or pants. That is an endemic problem with anything attached to a belt when the belt is dropped.
The cure may be the tactical holsters and open carry and shoulder holsters.
Jul 18, 2009 - 11:00 am 97. Blarty Blarckleblart:96 RAH
Or perhaps those NASA diapers, so we never have to drop our belts.
Jul 18, 2009 - 3:21 pm 98. Cybergeezer:Sure; Training and certificates are good, but don’t eliminate stupidity.
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:49 pm 99. RDM:There are guns made that have built in safety features that prevent any firing without these safety features engaged by the user. These have been successfully used by law enforcement which have a perfect record for safety to date. And safety features that prevent the attempted firing by the uneducated user. Thus saving accidental injury and deaths.
If I had my concealed weapon on me in the next stall, and a shot came at me from the adjacent stall, I’d probably take a few shots at the stall the shot came from. Concealed carry permits you to fire back. Answering lethal force with lethal force.
I wonder how many of these scenarios have been responded to by the police? And probably written up as drug related gun fights.
As with drivers training, pistol and revolver training needs to be completed. A person who applies for a conceal/carry permit should prove proficiency in handling and actually firing the weapon they want to carry. (Yea; More laws.)
All we need is one more law that says “If you need to be informed about everything that could hurt somebody or yourself, then you don’t get any privileges.”
(Can you see the media and the Liberals screaming?)
They say guns kill people; Well, mine must be defective; Because they’ve never killed anybody.
Thanks for the article. The two cautionary tales used as your examples should have gone through my permit training at RangeUSA in Memphis TN! The training was conducted by either current or former law enforcement officers and very thorough. I estimate at least 40% of the two eight hour training sessions was dedicated to handgun safety, rules, conduct, and proper weopon systems (holster, belt, etc.) My training manual seems to back my estimate up on the percentages.
Jul 18, 2009 - 5:19 pm 100. Will c:I do not find this story very creditable unless the parties were carrying their guns cocked to fire – which is crazy whether you are carrying concealed or open. I have not heard of any such instances elsewhere, except with polcie officers periodically mishandling a firearm.
Jul 18, 2009 - 5:22 pm 101. Richard de Castro:While the author makes a special point about ‘ordinary citizens’ who get CCW’s and carry, it should be pointed out that even highly trained police officers have accidental discharges – in some cases, while sitting on the toilet (NYC comes to mind).
Or, the DEA undercover agent (known throughout the gun world as Mr. Glock-fohty) who managed to shoot himself in the leg – while telling a class of 5th graders that he’s the only person ‘professional’ enough to be trusted with a firearm.
Jul 18, 2009 - 5:44 pm 102. Recession Anxiety:I had a friend once tell me that a CCP holder is 1/10th a likely to have an accidental discharge as an off-duty police officer.
Anybody know where that came from? I’d like to source it.
Jul 18, 2009 - 8:45 pm 103. Robohobo:In Warren vs. DC:
This is the case where 3 rape victims sued DC for redress. They lost and the Federal courts decided the above. THAT is the basis for why so many wish to take advantage of various states concealed carry laws.
KBL in ABQ @ 80: (From me in ABQ) in refernece to white helmet
He wants you to walk on by, trust me. I will not interfere in the case when some one so anti-gun wants to be so adamant. They do not want our help. They can call 9-11 on their own, thank you.
White helmet constructs straw men and knocks them down so fast it makes his/her/it head spin. The critter is a troll not interested in learning or honest discussion.
And Delia? Why do you always feed the trolls? Quit it.
shau-jan – Thanks for the link. That is a good one.
Jul 18, 2009 - 9:22 pm 104. White helmet:KBL at 80: no one in their right mind would want you to pass on by (and I would swear you had a read beard and a club foor so the police wouldn’t find you). I vote for every three strikes law; I support tough sentencing, esp for violent crimes. I know of Keck’s study that says 400,000 times a year a crime is prevented by just showing a gun. And a law that let someone like you carry versus everyone that rolled in with a new gun might be another matter.
But on the issue of people having concealed carry as a general matter: Suppose instead of you its an excitable man that shoots me instead? Maybe with fmj that exits the bad guy and gets me? Or a bystander? How about if you leave your gun in your car a some kids get it? Didn’t we move up from the old western town where everyone had guns? Isn’t it better to just ban the concealed carry entirely? Stricter sentences, longer terms and more room for violent felons instead of pot users and sellers: that’s my preferenec.
Jul 19, 2009 - 10:41 am 105. B Dubya:When the deathrate per 100,000 from firearm related fatalities appraoches anything like that of highway fatalities, we should be concerned.
Last year 37,000 people died on the nations highways, of which 5200 were motorcyclists. Motorcycle fatalities have doubled since 1997, the only stat that shows an increase in the same period. In 2007, the latest year for which I can obtain statistics, 1400 children between the ages of infant to 14 died in vehicle related accidents.
The largest contributor to the reduction in highway deaths in 2008 was $4.00 plus per gallon gasoline, which dramatically reduced total miles driven.
Deathrates for firearm related accidents have declined since 1904, even though the number of firearms in the possession of US citizens has increased dramatically. There are about 500 accidental deaths associated with firearms for all age groups.
And this is our refutation to all of the progressive nannyhood that the writer oozes:
In 2007-2008 there were a total of 1.32 million violent crimes reported in the major cities of the US (100,000 population or greater), including just over 17000 murders. That does not include suicides, the favorite statistic of the gun control crowd, because apparently the Feds don’t count it as a crime. It also does not count injuries and deaths inflicted on perps in self defense, as self defense is also not a Federal crime. It does include robbery, assault and forcible rape. The violent crime rate in this country is just over 13/100000 people per year.
How many more of those crimes were deterred because the perps were afraid that their intended victims were armed and willing to employ deadly force to protect their lives, families or property?
When the police, based on recent higher court decisions intended to free them from tort liability regarding their failure to protect citizens who experience violent crime, are not legally required to protect you, then you can be assured that the police will not protect you. That means that you have to take up the burden of defense of life, liberty and property yourself.
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:58 am 106. shau-jan:104.white helment.”Didn’t we move up from the old western town where everyone had guns?”
tell that to a 105 pound woman being preyed upon by a 250 pound man.
http://www.rainn.org/statistics/
or maybe you aren’t concerned personally about someone twice your size forcibly penetrating you.
Jul 19, 2009 - 3:38 pm 107. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: Here’s the Answering Argument
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:11 am 108. Russ:[The Truth will out.....]
Interesting article. The comments, however, are more interesting. NRA certified instructors stating the 1911 doesn’t have a grip safety? NRA certified instructors stating an auto shouldn’t be carried with a round in the chamber, because it’s always unsafe that way?
The right answer is to live in a responsible society. No-one seems to realize that the point of the big government takeover is to achieve the exact opposite–to promote an irresponsible society. No amount of “gun training” is going to take someone who can’t think their way out of a wet paper bag and make the competent and vigilant. Our society is eating itself from the inside out.
Based on the reasoning I see here, you shouldn’t carry at all. If you think carrying without a round in the chamber is a “solution,” let me ask–what happens when you do “rack the slide” because you “feel threatened,” and then you don’t know how to handle the thing, because the round in the chamber makes you nervous? After all, you never carry that way, and you’ve always treated it like there’s not a round in the chamber. The only time a round is ever there is on the range, and they have a nice backstop for you to shoot at, and nice people to tell you when to shoot.
Or when you “rack the slide” while someone is slitting your throat? Oh, that’s right, concealed carry holders don’t need to draw quickly. You always have several minutes after a threat appears to “get ready.” “Hang on there, buddy, I’ll be with you in a minute on that wallet thing, I just have to get this slide to rack.” With your hands sweating and body going crazy, you’re falling back on fine motor skills to get in the fight.
Bottom line: Train the way you carry and fight. Treat the gun as loaded. And don’t expect a society that’s enamored of television, and filled with churches and schools that no longer teach people to think, to be a safe society, whether guns, cars, boats, or pens are involved. Stupid people do stupid things. You want to solve the problem with firearm training? You have to start by teaching people to think. And the government would then shut you down, because, after all, they don’t want you to think, just emote.
Russ
Jul 20, 2009 - 5:10 am 109. KBL in ABQ:108 Russ: “NRA certified instructors stating an auto shouldn’t be carried with a round in the chamber, because it’s always unsafe that way?”
No need to be so cranky, Russ. During the years the Model 1911 .45 ACP was in use, the Services taught the rank and file that it was unsafe to carry the pistol with a round in the chamber. I cite the Bluejackets Manual of 1944 as but one example,”It is dangerous to carry the pistol thus loaded and, except in emergencies, the pistol should be carried with the chamber empty, unless otherwise directed by proper authority.” The pistol was not to be carried loaded in garrison except by military police on duty. It is no surprise that decades of this kind of training to millions of soldiers, sailors, and Marines has lingered in the civilian world of concealed carry. You are correct of course, the 1911 was designed to be safely carried with one in the chamber and full cock with thumb safety on… but this entails lots of training, much practice, and a high degree of personal responsibility. For self-defense, the modern revolver should be carried uncocked with a round in every chamber of the cylinder. It will not discharge when dropped.
Jul 20, 2009 - 8:50 am 110. Fred Beloit:Military Police person White Helmit says:
“Didn’t we move up from the old western town where everyone had guns? Isn’t it better to just ban the concealed carry entirely? Stricter sentences, longer terms and more room for violent felons instead of pot users and sellers: that’s my preferenec.”
A pot-smoking MP? That’s a new one. Smoke away if you got ‘em White Helmet, not on duty though. But until someone convinces me that I have no natural right to defend myself and others I happen to be near from deadly attack, you know where you can stick your intolerance, right up there with your s—. Thanks again for your service.
Jul 20, 2009 - 9:59 am 111. Will:All said and done,everyone has a right to defend them self. Any law abiding citizen has the right to armed carry.
Jul 20, 2009 - 3:17 pm 112. iconoclast:Good article, Bob.
Here is another recent self-inflicted shooing:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2009501296_webpassenger20.html
I don’t know if the shooter had a carry permit.
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:23 pm 113. Mason:I’m kinda suspicious of these vauge news reports – there are very few handguns available which are capable of firing when dropped. Often times when people claim that a gun was dropped or “just went off” they were actually handling it in a grossly negligent manner and made it go off by the usual method of pulling the trigger while the chamber was loaded.
That said, as someone who has carried for 7 years, it wouldn’t hurt at all for classes to spend more time on things like holsters, carry positions, how to move and do various things while carrying, etc. I don’t see how you can make this a legal requirement, though, and we would only be placing more obstacles in the way of concealed carry by trying.
There’s also a lot of rank stupidity in this thread. Like concealed carry with a thumb-break holster – WTF? Thumb breaks are for slowing down a person who is trying to take your gun, which is irrelevant if they don’t know that you have a gun to take in the first place. A good quality holster will retain the gun perfectly well under any circumstances (short of someone grabbing it) without a thumb strap, and modern, high-quality guns don’t go off when dropped anyways. And a thumb break may very well cost you the half-second that makes the difference between stopping a thug and being his next victim. People, please use some common sense and get at least some training from someone who knows what the hell they’re talking about before you start carrying.
Jul 22, 2009 - 4:38 pm