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1. The Democratic Party’s Drubbing of Joe the Plumber | PoliticsMuch.com:

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Oct 19, 2008 - 1:20 am 2. Marc Malone:

Honestly, I’m only 47. I can’t really remember a time when the Dems have actually been “for” the little guy. It always seemed to be the use and abuse them approach. They always seemed to be just a means to an end in my lifetime. Besides, all their constituents seem to be victim groups. Maybe that’s just me.

Of course, I came of age in the Godawful Carter years. My first vote was for Reagan….

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:52 am 3. DavidN:

Pathetic, isn’t it? Yesterday, someone on here came up with a fact which would have made front page news if it pertained to McCain or Palin: Obama earned money for honoraria for two years, in violation of state law, while he was an Illinois legislator…so we spend time digging up dirt on a lowly plumber, instead.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:57 am 4. civil disobedience:

For five minutes, Obama explained that Joe would only pay more if he made more than $250,000 per year.

[In media interviews, Joe acknowledged that he earns nowhere near that amount at the moment. But he said he expects to cross the $250,000 threshold someday.]

The media and Obamas fanatics would have me/you believe that no ordinary ‘Joe’ should ever attempt to make over $200,000 a year, never start a business, and never win the lottery.

We should all sit back and let those imaginary businesses and lottery winners take care of our sorry asses.

Yeah that the ticket!

Remember the Russian dictator Stalin?
He had a great idea for taking care of his voters. 45 million of them got the ax.

But they were all registered in his next election.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:06 am 5. Jay Brezny:

“In media interviews, Joe acknowledged that he earns nowhere near that amount at the moment. But he said he expects to cross the $250,000 threshold someday.”

So Joe the Plumber admits he would get a tax break under Obama’s plan, but he doesn’t want a tax break because someday he will be rich. How, exactly, does this make any sense? Are we to believe that Joe the Plumber is more concerned with a theoretical future than he is with his current and very real situation?

Here’s the thing about Joe the Plumber: No half-rational person thinks like this guy. Nobody who is struggling to make a living worries about the added taxes they would have to pay if they became rich. Everybody is concerned about getting to the rich part first — then they can worry about the extra taxes. Getting a tax cut today goes some way to getting to the rich part. That Joe the Plumber doesn’t see this makes him truly weird.

Joe the Plumber is not a hard-working “everyman,” he is either an ideologue who can’t stand a Democrat who wants to give him a tax break or he is a pie-in-the-sky dreamer who’s more concerned about the high taxes he’s paying in his daydreams than in the challenges he needs to overcome if he ever wants to make his dreams reality.

If Joe the Plumber is what has happened to the American Dream, then America is in bigger trouble than I thought.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:28 am 6. Marc Malone:

Jay Brezny – The concept of nobility is to be able to rise above your base immediate self-interest and see the long-term. It’s not weird at all. It’s not half-rational: it’s completely rational.

He understands that if he wants to become rich, there are certain things he needs to overcome. Money he can do, but when he looks at risk versus reward, then higher taxes on the “rich” make his aspirations far less likely. He’s not interested in a little extra cash now. He’s looking for the best opportunity to fulfill his dreams, and that means a level playng field, and a positive business environment. If that’s not available to him, then why bother?

Besides, the Libs all fuss about the evil capitalists who say, “I got mine, to hell with you!” But here you are, saying that that is the rational thing to do. No one turns down a free lunch, right? Get yours now, and let the future take care of itself. That’s the very basis for corruption, crime, the financial meltdown, and all kinds of selfishness. Selfishness is the basis of evil.

The future won’t take care of itself. Men actually have to think ahead, and do what’s right long-term. “Joe” is doing that, and you consider him irrational. It’s the difference between the conservatives and the liberals. Libs are like children in their thinking.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:07 am 7. Francis W. Porretto:

“What has happened to the Democratic Party?” you ask? It’s quite simple: coalition politics.

When winning becomes more important to a party than principle, it will resort to coalition politics: the tawdry art of buying blocs of votes with promises about future policy directions. Coalition politics requires the party to suppress its residual inclinations toward fidelity to principle and get on with the business of selling its soul. Once the coalition approaches 50%, it becomes highly unstable — groups within it begin to ponder the possibilities from shopping their allegiances around — at which point the party must scramble ceaselessly for giveaways and subventions to keep the coalition together. That’s the death knell for any remaining honesty or scruple in the party’s governing cadre.

Coalition politics, in short, overwhelms the decent impulses in those who adopt it. You could say that the truly fatal mistake was to elevate winning above all other considerations, but it’s the adoption of coalition politics that most sharply accelerates the descent into villainy, and makes it more or less irreversible.

Unfortunately, the Republicans are getting into coalition politics too.

“I tremble for my country when I remember that God is just.” — Thomas Jefferson

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:24 am 8. Chris Anderson:

Jay Brezny,

You and the media keep piling it on Joe, hoping to bury obama’s statement.

Joe is irrelevant here.

obama’s socialistic answer to his question is the story.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:41 am 9. John B:

A couple of things wrong with this “tax the rich” notion that doesn’t add up.

Maybe “Joe the Plumber” buys his business and sets about trying to grow something for the future. Good for him~! Now,,, who does Joe get plumbing supplies from? Most contractors get the needed items to repair your plumbing problems from a plumbing supplier, *not necessarily another less than $250,000 business*. Because the plumbing supply company is now being taxed at a higher rate, those plumbing fixtures are now priced higher. Who do you think is going to pay the tab at the end of the job? Do you suppose it might actually come from the pocket of “Joe the Home Owner”?

This is called trickle up taxation. For all those 95% of Americans whom Obama claims will get a tax cut, I believe the reverse is actually true. They will be paying more for goods and services in the long run. Of course, I never believed that 95% number in the 1st place.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:53 am 10. ajacksonian:

I never, ever thought I would see the time when a politician running for President would actually demean the middle class and go after a working class ‘Joe’. Leading news is that the majority of Americans are not elites who can afford to tell someone with the dream of owning their own business that ’spreading the wealth around’ means taking money from those who have worked for it and giving it to those who haven’t. There are lots and lots and lots of registered voters who know people just like Joe, who grew up in similar areas and have family living the same kind of lives as he has.

That effort to ridicule and demean Joe is a direct attack on the blue collar and working middle class of America. They have just been told that they don’t deserve to be listened to, to be treated as fellow citizens and if you have the temerity to ask a question of a politician you will be raked over the hot coals, your life questioned, your skills doubted, and political pressure will be brought to make your life a living hell. We are all plumbers now when we are told ‘this is good for you’ by politicians willing to stifle the voice of the average American to force their political agenda on the Nation. Now it is ’shut up about your betters… or else…’.

And if you have ever had to use a plumber’s helper, you will now have your lack of license questioned, your ability to do that work doubted, and you, who dare not to be certified, will be vilified no matter how good a job you do. I grew up with people like Joe, in a neighborhood not as good as his, in a town where doing a good JOB and fighting the tax man was a constant battle. That work goes under the table with high taxes and it STILL gets done. The dream of Joe was to save enough to buy a small business, probably with a loan, and hire people that he would PAY to do good jobs and live by his reputation in supplying good work to paying customers. That is wealth redistribution the ‘old fashioned way’: using your liberty to EARN IT.

Giving a ‘tax cut’ just means they shouldn’t have been taxed for that money IN THE FIRST PLACE. That is NOT government’s money it is handing back, but letting people keep the money they EARN. It is not largesse in handing it back, any politician proposing a ‘tax cut’ should be humble and APOLOGIZE that government has been taking your money from YOU to no good ends, and then promise to correct government from EVER DOING THAT AGAIN.

That would take a politician with guts, fortitude and a working class attitude towards getting government to run well and removing the parts that are horrifically inefficient and that impose on the very liberty this Nation is founded on. That was the very, very radical notion of 1776, and it is sad it is now a radical one AGAIN.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:06 am 11. Ed Wallis:

Having read a number of other pieces by Mr. Navarette, I’m tempted to ask ‘who wrote this piece of clear, concise English’. But the CONTENT – the MESSAGE – of this article is more important than the MESSENGER (CLUE to Obama supporters: this DOES have to do with the Wurzelbacher/Obama issue).

Here, for the sake of clarity and transparency, are Obama’s own words :

“It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody … I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

The author points out well the utterly destructive – and anti-American nature of today’s Party of Democrats. I most enjoyed the following :

EXCERPTS:

” Now, the well-to-do elites who run the Democratic Party — and their surrogates — greet these people [the little guy, the blue collar laborer, the everyday Joe the Plumber] with brickbats. They insult them, talk down to them, and even try to destroy them. Isn’t that the sort of war on the working class that Democrats are always accusing those greedy and heartless Republicans of waging.”
. . .
“That’s not good. It’s often the case that the not-so-well-off have made some not-so-good decisions and all manner of bad choices, and this sort of behavior should not be rewarded. And it’s also often the case that the well-to-do have worked hard, made sacrifices, taken risks and made good choices, and this sort of behavior should not be punished.”

“With just a few weeks until the election, Obama made a major boo-boo that could cost him the race. What are Democrats and their simpaticos in the media supposed to do? They can’t turn back time. So instead, they turn on Joe the Plumber.”

It is only “character assassination” when only the “character” is destroyed. In the case of Mr. Wurzelbacher, his livelihood, his career, his domicile, his family – in short – Obama and his “simpaticos are destroying Mr. Wurzelbacher’s entire future.”

I can only hope that all Americans are so repulsed by the behavior of Obama and Company as to reject him on November 4th.

*** McCAIN / PALIN ’08 !!! ***

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:21 am 12. vivo:

If Joe the Plumber would have asked the question to McCain and Palin, what would they have answered? Slogans, slogans, slogans.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:28 am 13. syn:

It is a joke to say the Democratic Party is for the working person.

How humiliating it must be for Bruce ‘The Boss’ Springsteen supporting Obama’s ‘crush the people’ thugocracy.

Talk about outright behind-the-Iron-Curtain propaganda, a rich rock star singing ‘working man’ praise for a anti-capitalist politician who uses goon tactics to shut the working man down.

If you vote Democrat you are NOT voting for We the People.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:31 am 14. Mike Grant:

Democrats have always hated ‘plumbers’. Ask former President Richard M Nixon.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:55 am 15. sunshine2:

Joe is not in the Union
Joe has hope and dares to have hope outside of Obama giving it. Remember Obama is a narcissist and this man doesn’t feed THE ONE.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:03 am 16. Joe C.:

Politics is easy when you have no shame or conscience – like Democrats. I’m glad that everyone gets to see the Leftist’s condescension toward and absolute terror of “Joe the Plumber.” Even here, Brezny can’t believe that Joe doesn’t want welfare (”refundable tax credit”). It is that thinking that the Obama-Brezny-Media elites can’t understand. Why don’t they want the free money? Because Joe understands from whence that money came, and the negative effects it has on the economy and society.

Now, the B. Hussein campaign and its Media organs are conducting a Palin-like search and destroy mission on the poor guy whose only transgression was that he deigned to ask a question to the Messiah without a teleprompter present. Uh-uh-bama then slips up and tells the truth.

The Obamedia has done more legwork on Joe in 2 days than on Obambi in 2 years. It was one thing when they were picking on Palin’s kids – after all, they deserved it for being born – but now they’ve gone and really stepped in it by defaming a plumber. That just doesn’t sit well with the great unwashed in flyover country.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:04 am 17. Tom H:

saw the news, continuing to mention Joes back taxes. Where is the story about the O’s CAMPAIGN TREASURER, who not only owes personal back taxes, but owes them on his companies, too???

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:12 am 18. Don:

Socialism is a lie because people are selfish, we see this in these professional politicians we vote into office and we see it in the dirt poor, when they can take advantage, they do. What the Democrats teach (especially in those identifying themselves as “Civil Rights” proponents) is don’t aspire, don’t dream, those things are impossible because of the rich (and racist white America). Believe in us and we’ll give you what you deserve (which is? . . . close your eyes and what do you see?). Joe aspires to great things, and after the party savages him, he will get up and fight on (insulting the party still further), The Democrats have finally latched onto something at the right time (for them, for once) if you tell people in difficult times that they can trust that the party will “take care of them” and using Goebbels SOP as their template (the big lie told often enough), they could win.

Then God help all of us who aspire to great things, the only thing that will save us is perseverance and deafness (to popular “Politically correct” wisdom).

God Bless Joe and any who aspire to (and will work to accomplish) great things, those who won’t . . . Don’t worry, big brother will make sure you get what you deserve.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:14 am 19. Shimmy:

John McCain thanked Joe Wurzelbacher. He asked Joe Wurzelbacher why he didn’t call when the Constitution was attacked. Joe Wurzelbacher said he had a long night and was flying to New York that evening for a sit-down interview with Mike Huckabee on Pravda. They then began kissing.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:15 am 20. Sioux Lady:

Jay Brezny – Since you can use correctly polysyllabics like “theoretical” and “ideologue,” I shall asuume your educational attainments greatly exceed those of Joe the Plumber. That you sneer at Joe’s ability to grasp econmic concepts, leads me to assume you are an Obama soul-mate.

My father, who had a 7th grad education, was chairman of our tribe for 16 years. He told us one time that one of his biggest problems with tribal finance was that the tribal council and membership wanted to spend every dime NOW! He said, “If they can’t put it in their mouths, they don’t understand it.” He wanted to set aside a portion of tribal income to invest in a tribal business and higher education grants to young tribal members – long-term projects. But the council and members said, “We want it all and we want it now.”

So you see . . . despite your education, you are like those dumb Indians. Despite Joe’s assumed lack of education he is like my father and small businessmen throughout this country who understand what, apparently is to you “rocket science” concept of “deferred gratification.” Walk down the street of my small town of Gettysburg, SD and interview every small businessman. You’ll find out they know all about taxation, financing, federal/state regulation; matters, apparently, far beyond your poor power to grasp. They live with it everyday.

Our one-time leftist U.S. Senator and candidate for the U.S. presidency, George McGovern learned all of this the hard way. After losing the election to Richard Nixon, he tried to run a small inn somewhere. I can’t find the exact quote, but he said something to the effect that he could now see what was wrong with all the tax and regulatory laws he voted for while in the U.S. Senate. You and Obama are the McGovern’s of yesteryear.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:23 am 21. SAF:

Ed Wallis:

Nice post.

The democrats have passion this election season and they really don’t care who they have to kill to get their party into office.

Reagan won in 1980 based on ideas and principles and it didn’t hurt having Carter to run against.

In 2008 Obama will win on technique, that is to say, raising much more money, feeling the pulse of the electorate and saying what they want to here, knowing full well his color is an asset with the liberal elite. Doesn’t hurt that Bush and the republicans did a bad job this decade. You have to give Obama credit for gaming the system. I disagree with those who say he stands for nothing, he stands for getting elected and socialism.

While he appears to be a great candidate i think everyone will be in for a big shock when he assumes command.

Count on the Iranians, Russians and Palestinians to check his fortitude early on.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:27 am 22. Aisling:

“Joe the Plumber” would have passed quickly into obscurity if McCain hadn’t believed him to be a small businessman making over $250,000 a year who questioned Obama’s tax proposals. McCain’s the one who brought “Joe” into last week’s debate and held him up as a symbol. The media sought Joe out the next day and looked a little closer and discovered he wasn’t any of the things McCain had suggested. Joe got his 10 minutes of fame. If his credibilty has been damaged, he can thank McCain for making him a national “hero” and assume the rest of the responsibility himself.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:27 am 23. Cassandra Troy:

Too long the left have gotten away with the strategy of class war. They deserve to be brought down by a single plumber. Marxism never was anything else but a strategy for an ordinary power grab: an assault on enlightenment principles, all corollaries of reason: equality, individual freedom and rights, limited government. The Dems are showing their true faces by their hyena mob attack on an individual: they are statist collectivists who believe it is every drone’s duty to subordinate.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:33 am 24. viva:

If this is a preview of how the Democrats plan to control the public debate when they get complete control and total rule, then everyone is in trouble. These thugs are out for full power with no one standing in the way.

It’s crazy. The democrats attack a man for daring to ask a simple question in his own front yard.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:53 am 25. Jerry Cohen:

The Democratic party of Harry Truman, John F. Kennedy, and Henry “Scoop” Jackson has long been discarded like the bones of Tyrannosaurus Rex. It seems those radical psychopaths from the 1960’s–Weather Underground, SDS, Panthers, etc–have put on coats and ties these past forty years and have fooled a lot of people. They are the tormented, guilt-ridden souls from a comfortable middle class who actually hate the “Joe the plumbers” of the real world. Just recall Orwell’s warning from ANIMAL FARM: “Some animals are more equal than others.” By the way, isn’t Obama worth millions? Dollar wise, that is.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:02 am 26. mishu:

Wrong vivo. McCain and Palin could look him in the eye and say that his taxes will be cut. They know when businesses can reduce their expenses, like taxes, they can invest in growing their business. If their expenses increase, they cannot. Regardless, anyone should know that businesses don’t pay taxes, customers do.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:14 am 27. cfbleachers:

“We cannot be blind to the fact that the liberties enjoyed by individual citizens throughout the United States …..are not valid in a considerable number of countries, some of which are very powerful. In these States control is enforced upon the common people by various kinds of all-embracing police governments to a degree which is overwhelming and contrary to every principle of democracy.

The power of the State is exercised without restraint, either by dictators or by compact oligarchies operating through a privileged party and a political police.

They say that they are a grass roots organization, but all I see is a Grass Curtain descending upon the plumbers and farmers of this nation. I see a Celluloid Curtain descending upon the small towns and hamlets, that celluloid filled with ridicule, slander and outright hostility. These dual Curtains have combined to prey upon the victims of perhaps the greatest con game ever to be played upon a nation, whose freedoms are legendary and whose tolerance of internal intrigue is, apparently boundless as well.

The long con of teaching “tolerance” while exhibiting none, has been played out and the sting is being applied. Average Joe is the “mark” and has been played, and played expertly. We have reached the point in the long con, where the “mark” not only is not allowed to ask any questions, he is slapped across the face when he does so. Having won his confidence with smooth words and lofty promises, it’s time for the muzzle to be applied, forcibly, if necessary. The following cons of tomorrow won’t work, if the “mark” starts asking questions and getting too “noisy”.

Offer him the opportunity to dream, and then crush it if he questions the particulars. The con man does his best work gaining the confidence of the mark, then wipes him out as part of the end game. Gaining confidence of a mark requires two overarching skills. Keep your words soothing and your background hidden.

Frank Abagnale, from Catch Me If You Can fame, posed as an airline pilot, even though he couldn’t fly a paper airplane, much less a real one. He posed as a pediatrician, but didn’t know what a blue baby was. He played an attorney, but he never went to law school.

In fact, he forged a degree from Columbia University (nobody was permitted to see the transcripts apparently) and taught Sociology for a semester.

He also forged a Harvard Law degree (again, apparently he was able to avoid showing his transcripts). Even though Abagnale never wrote one scholarly article, never produced a thesis, never showed the grades or the test scores necessary to obtain admission to those schools…he was able to convince people that he could heal the sick, teach college students about social issues and the law, and even fly a plane. All with just smooth words and not an ounce of actual accomplishment. Not sure if Frank told people he was involved with the law review at Harvard, but he has explained how he allowed everyone else to do his work at the hospital, usually the orderlies, while he played the role of “advisor” to them.

Frank, in real life…didn’t have the grades to get into Columbia or Harvard Law School. It was imperative that nobody ever saw his transcripts from there, or those that gave rise to him getting into those institutions….and more importantly that they never asked for proof of his actual work done there. It was mandatory that it be kept a secret.

Frank went to work for the government, but he didn’t set his sights high enough. He should have run for President of our country. We tend to fall for pretty words and lofty speeches, we tend to make great marks for the long con.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:20 am 28. KJB:

vivo: Please tell me: why would Joe have asked that question to McCain or Palin?

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:23 am 29. SAF:

I think the Obama supporters miss this point.

What Obama is saying is “Joe you can negotiate any deal with your employees you want but if you make more than X I will take it from you and give it to them.”

Joe and McCain might be bad messengers but it’s Obama’s response that is of interest.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:29 am 30. mishu:

Aisling, that argument is laughable. Biden brought up real life people in the Vice Presidential debate. Did the McCain campaign try to dig up dirt on those people? No, because it’s usually good politics not to sh!t on voters.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:30 am 31. bill-tb:

We are all dumbo-crats now.

Why work, when the pies are going to be free.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:31 am 32. hdgreene:

I do not believe that Joe is really bald. I think he has plenty of hair. He’s just trying to look like Bruce Willis.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:40 am 33. ~Paules:

This incident is a clarion call for anyone who values liberty. Only those who accept party orthodoxy will be tolerated. Dissenters will be crushed. Add to Obama’s cult of personality a cadre of media aparachiks willing to play the role of brown-shirts and you have the perfect recipe for tyranny.

Think for a moment to what uses The Leader might put his new Civiian Defense Corps. The organization will be entirely political, staffed by young people who have already been indoctrinated by our universities. Cultural Revolution, anyone?

This incident goes beyond appalling. History repeats in front of our very eyes and no one seems willing to draw the obvious conclusions. The Dempcratic Party does not stand for the working man anymore than soviet communists stood for the proletariat. “Redistribution” is just another word collectivization. Ask a kulak what that means, if you can find one.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:45 am 34. SAF:

Paules:

You are correct, I am afraid.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:22 am 35. Saltherring:

What has made America different from the rest of the world? Why have immigrants risked and sacrificed all to come to America? Why not France?…or Cuba? It is because America has been the land of opportunity, a beacon for all who dream of reaping the rewards of hard work and sacrifice. Obama’s four words, “spread the wealth around” have done more to squelch America’s aspirations and ambitions than 40 years of oppressive taxation and regulation. Obama, if elected, and by those four words, has destroyed the American Dream and effectively sent notice to every hard-working “Joe the Plumber” in this country:

If you work hard, we will be watching; if you succeed, your socialist masters will be waiting at your doorstep.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:37 am 36. Aisling:

Providing for equitable taxation does not equate to opposition to the working class. I’m amazed and amused that so many people who do not now nor ever will make $250,000 a year in personal income are up in arms about raising taxes on those who do. Everyone who makes less than that amount will see a savings in their taxes. We’ve had 8 years of “trickle down economics” that have culminated in near catastrophe and a bailout for Wall Street. Yet conservatives still whine about social programs for those in need while corporate welfare consumes the nation’s wealth.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:40 am 37. BC:

~Paules: wrote: “This incident is a clarion call for anyone who values liberty.”

Do you guys have some sort of master list of GOP talking points that you randomly pick from, regardless if it’s at all even remotely applicable?

As far as “Joe the Plumber” goes, blame “McLame” McCain for making such a big deal about him, hence openly inviting media interest and investigation (well, whatever passes for such these days):

It turns out Joe has no plumber’s license.

Joe isn’t in the plumbers union.

Joe never did a plumbers apprenticeship.

Joe’s business likely would not be taxed under Obama’s proposal.

Joe might even get a tax cut under Obama’s proposal.

Joe doesn’t believe in Social Security.

Joe’s first name isn’t Joe, it’s Samuel.

And Samuel hasn’t paid his taxes.

http://www.freep.com/article/20081019/COL01/810190417/?imw=Y

And anyone who really truly “values liberty” would be an even greater idiot voting for McCain: our last batch of Republican presidents have an absolutely wretched record when it comes to personal liberty, and Bush, with things like the covert domestic spying program and the moronic Patriot Act nonsense, being typical. I doubt any of you yahoos knew that your beloved President Reagan had a nice little domestic spying setup that targeted NGO’s with projects in any country that was deemed unfriendly to US interests, which included pretty much all impoverished countries (unrelated to this was another nice little Reagan plan called “Rex 84″ — go Google it). This little enterprise was continued on with the not so beloved Bush Sr., before being finally ended by Clinton. Given McCain’s recent history and the type of people he brought in on as advisers, you would be just as dumb voting for a third term of Bush as voting for McCain if personal liberty really truly has any value to you.

And also redistribute me no redistribution — thanks to Bush and his bumbling crew, you and your friends, and probably your kids down the road and their kids just as well, just had a good chunk of your income, current and future, “redistributed” in one fell swoop with all this stock market and bailout activity.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:52 am 38. uburoisc:

Joe is not in a public employees union, he’s not even in the pipefitters union, and he’s not here illegally, and he doesn’t look like a protected minority, so in the eyes of the Democtrat Party, Joe doesn’t matter.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:54 am 39. jane:

This mindset “he is a pie-in-the-sky dreamer who’s more concerned about the high taxes he’s paying in his daydreams than in the challenges he needs to overcome if he ever wants to make his dreams reality.” is why some people apparently are happy to live on the government dole rather than work to achieve.

For a liberal it is more frightening to think about possibilities than to just give up and expect people who did achieve something to carry your load.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:55 am 40. Fantom:

Hmnn, lets see Obama is gonna’ take money from someone else and give it to me. In my world, that is called theft. Corruption pure and simple. Of course said corruption is what the left has based the Democrat party upon.

Everyone should have to pay. Those who do not pay any income taxes, should not get to vote income taxes on those who do pay said tax.

A Simple Bricklayer

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:00 am 41. epb:

It is not what Joe asked, but what Obama said that’s important here. The obfuscation of the ‘Obamedia’ to follow up on what interests voters & their complicitness to engage in politics of personal destruction is reprehensible. Freedom of the Press = Free to Propagandize???

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:31 am 42. Claire:

BC: You use freeper talking points to dis people here about “talking points?” Hilarious.

Joe doesn’t have a license because it is not required in his township for the work he does. His employer carries it. His middle name and the name he prefers to be called IS Joe. This is something to chip away at him on? Nasty.

So what if he gets a tax cut from Obama? Should short term election year gain of $500 cancel out any longer term higher level concerns? To you and Obama, yes. To people who can grasp the bigger picture, not at all.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:45 am 43. Bill Perron:

What if Joe were a black man asking that question would the libs attack him as well, wish a black guy would just to find out…. When the cost of doing business goes up a business has to raise it’s prices to survive, so when the taxes on business and corporations go up they will have to raise their prices, so who is really going to pay the higher taxes, thats right the very same folks Obama says he wants to help will pay those higher prices. If Obama and the Dems want to really help they will just get out of the way and lets us workers do our jobs.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:01 am 44. Bill Menge:

Joe may or may not be a plumber, but he sure isn’t approaching the “buy a company” category. Was he talking about his dream? Maybe so, but that’s not what he said. He said he was thinking about buying the company he worked for. That sounds a lot more present that a dream. Anybody know how much cash it takes to buy a company that earns $250-280,000 a year? That doesn’t take a plumber, it takes a venture capitalist. I say he wasn’t necessarily a McCain campaign plant, but he sure wasn’t an honest commenter. I say he has his politics and was there trying to trip up Obama. By the way…all you guys and gals that can’t pay your bills…check out Mr. McCain’s wife’s tax returns…look at the seven homes…look at the drain of cash from the middle class upward to the super-rich…look at the failures in the health care system…look at the incredible disparity between the rich and the average (not the poor, but the average) in America…try to figure out how all the money went up the ladder to the rich when it used to be in the middle class and whether government policy may have contributed to that…wonder why a man and wife each working two jobs can’t cover the bills…look at the latch-key kids coming home to empty houses and watching TV and playing video games and dabbling in drugs because mom and dad are out working those extra jobs trying to pay the bills…and finally ask yourself if there’s really anything that wrong with spreading the wealth around…just a little bit.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:02 am 45. JKB:

Joe is obviously a crazy person. He has/has hopes for the future that will change his circumstances. He took advantage of a one-in-a-lifetime opportunity to ask a candidate how his plans will impact Joe’s plans.

Joe was looking to the future and how the tax plan would impact his hopes of a better life. That is crazy. People start doing that and the next thing you know they’ll be looking to see if you have the assets or income potential to pay back that mortgage. That can’t be good. Can it?

So for Joe’s treacherous attempt at foresight, Obama and his minions must trample all over Joe’s hope for change. When the better solution would be to keep Obama from speaking without his teleprompter.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:09 am 46. R a Z o R:

# 5 Jay Brezney

B O O K . D E A L . $ 250,000.oo

.” Joe the Plumbmer vs Obama “.

….” the American dream “….

…” just say no to Obama “…

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:24 am 47. R a Z o R:

#44 Bill Menge

How many families can you fit into that house you in Comrad ?

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:31 am 48. USAF Captain:

Bill Menge writes:

“…and finally ask yourself if there’s really anything that wrong with spreading the wealth around…just a little bit.”

A little bit? Is that like in “slippery slope”?

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:38 am 49. fred:

I’ve been warning people for years that it would come to this, and have been considered a shrill, shrieking Cassandra for doing so.

The NKVD chekists have arrived into the mainstream. For three decades they’ve been honing their skills and plying their trade on our college and university campuses. Every time one of their comrades got tenure they bulked up their ranks and consolidated their power. And it was so easy to terrorize the kids. Threaten them with bad grades if they expressed conservative views or defended capitalism. Make sure that new grad assistants and doctoral candidates would tow the Party line and would likely be potential candidates to join their elite fraternity.

Now, The One has arrived, right at the moment in our history when the Baby Boomlet Generation has arrived at voting age, and now fusing with the Older Cohort of the Baby Boomer Generation. The Younger Cohort of Baby Boomers and the GenXers do not have the numbers to overcome this advantage to the New Party Socialists. The Boomlets have been successfully indoctrinated. GenXers escaped the clutches of that ideology. The Younger Boomers like me watched our older fellow Boomers go ga-ga over SDS and The Weathermen, and engage in outrageous defilement of the nation and its servicemen. Even former Leftists like me were disgusted with them. Found them off-putting, narcissistic, and repulsive. But the Boomlet is so far removed from that time, and their sense of history so slender that they were the perfect mark for the Marxists.

We are crossing a threshold into a very different America. It is going to take great resistance and intellectual fortitude to recover traditional America and restore the Constitution and the Republic. Not sure when this will start. Will it take the nuking of an American city for people to wake up? Will it take the practical nullification of the 1st and 2nd Amendments through the death by a thousand paper cuts? Will it take the creeping structural, Eurosocialist type of unemployment and hopelessness? We will see.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:46 am 50. Fred Beloit:

Jay Brezney seems to have left out another possibility for Joe the P. “Joe the Plumber is not a hard-working “everyman,” he is either an ideologue who can’t stand a Democrat who wants to give him a tax break or he is a pie-in-the-sky dreamer who’s more concerned about the high taxes he’s paying in his daydreams than in the challenges he needs to overcome if he ever wants to make his dreams reality.”

This would never pop into a socialists head, but maybe Joe just doesn’t like the idea that his “tax break” would come out of someone else’s pocket. I don’t like that either.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:53 am 51. Sadly, No!:

Grow up. Nobody care about the “Joe the plumber” stunt.

Next.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:59 am 52. Richard:

Everything negative I hear about Joe the plummer tells me one thing…that he’s just like most Americans. We work hard and want to better our lives, but the game has rules that keep us down. Those rules are made by people who are on the top and design the rules and laws to keep them there. If you think Obama is going to change that, think again. He’s buying this election. He’s buying his position and there are a lot of people who are going to ask for “special favors” from their new president. Yeah, there’s going to be change, but not the kind everyone’s hoping for.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:03 am 53. Fred Beloit:

Aisling is stunned that even people of modest means consider theft a crime. “I’m amazed and amused that so many people who do not now nor ever will make $250,000 a year in personal income are up in arms about raising taxes on those who do.”

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:03 am 54. Doug:

I think in Joe you get someone that even if it won’t effect him ( at least not now ) understands that there is something inherently unfair to our so-called “progressive” tax system. Let us suppose that we did everything the way our tax system works. When I was in school my mother used to Pay me $5 for every A, $3 for a B, $1 for a C and started subtracting after that… you get the picture. What type of results do you think she might have been getting if she used our Progressive method of penalizing success. I can tell you.. if she penalized me for each A and B.. I would have damn sure made certain I never got higher than a C.. How is it fair to require someone that has gotten educated or worked hard to pay “extra” or above their fair share in order to off-set everyone else. Where is the incentive? Unless you can make an extreme jump… for example if you make $249,000 you will pay $89,640 in income taxes alone…taxed at 36% under Obama’s new rates. If you get a $5000 increase in income,…God Forbid, your tax liability at 39%, jumps to $99,060… this net increas of over $9000 combined with your raise, leaves you over four grand in the hole…

Sign me up for that deal

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:05 am 55. Bring me the head of Joe the Plumber | PoliticsMuch.com:

[...] the media followed the cue of Obama and Biden in tearing down Joe the Plumber. Today John Kass and Ruben Navarette also observe the savaging of Joe the Plumber. Kass deserves extra credit for identifying his own [...]

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:16 am 56. Retired Airman:

The first para poses a good question. What happened to the Democratic party???

The FEW true Democrats left (i.e. Lieberman and his kind) have been so marginalized, and overcome, by the Left Wing of the party that they have no power. In effect there is no REAL Democrat effort to keep the party the party of Roosevelt and Kennedy.

And now poor Joe the Plumber has become another target of the LEFT. Pretty sad when the average citizen cannot question a political participant and not be savaged for it.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:34 am 57. thegr8_1:

Obama wants to bring Chicago politics national and you do not want that. We have 11% Chicago sales tax, 3% Illinois income tax, Chicago head tax based on number of employees etc. Read Freddoso’s book it tells you all about Illinois, Cook (Crook) County, and Chicago politics. You do NOT want it in Washington.
Redistribution of wealth gives money to those on the bottom so they do not have to work to survive and they continue to vote Democratic. The middle class are all plumbers in the eyes of Obama and if you disagree with him the same scrutiny Joe got will be thrown at you.
National Security is number one. McCain saw KGB in Putin’s eyes unlike what Bush saw. Obama will look into Putin’s eyes and pee in his pants and will flash his silly grin and stutter let’s talk without preconditions. Is that what you want in a President.
On another point Biden had two anurysems 20 years ago those are strokes and almost died. If something happens to Obama and Biden the Wicked Witch from the West (Pelosi) is next in line. I would prefer Palin over the three stooges in line for President on the Dem side if something happens to McCain I know he will surround himself with good people.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:39 am 58. Dave Surls:

The liberals are always talking about how they want to help the little guy. You can see how serious they are by how they’re “helping” this little guy.

The guy can’t pay his medical bills, and the liberals step right up and help him out.

Not.

Instead of helping the guy, they start sneering at him because he’s behind in paying his medical bills. So much for their “All we want to make sure everyone gets medical care” bullshit.

They say they want to lower taxes for the little guy, but if a little guy can’t pay up, they use their propaganda arm (the media) to try and destroy the guy’s reputation by making him look like a deadbeat. Nice.

And, while this guy is struggling to keep his head above water, the new liberal Messiah and his missus have seen their own income rise from $250,000 a year to over $1,000,000 a year since he decided to run for POTUS…and big Barack, the little man’s best friend, never even paid the government to get a liscense to run for POTUS!

Well, that’s liberalism for you.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:42 am 59. Charlie (Colorado):

So Joe the Plumber admits he would get a tax break under Obama’s plan, but he doesn’t want a tax break because someday he will be rich. How, exactly, does this make any sense? Are we to believe that Joe the Plumber is more concerned with a theoretical future than he is with his current and very real situation?

Which explains why you never got a high school diploma or went to college? After all, what fun is all that studying and deferred gratification for some theoretical future where you’re a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist?

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:42 am 60. Chip:

“It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody … I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.”

This is the template of Chicago Machine Politics at work.

And if you’re wondering, this is a good example of exactly why Jesse Jackson has come across as being so anti-Obama. You see, Jesse Jackson Jr. has been trying to unseat the Chicago Machine methodolgy for some time now. Its a tough and a totally un-transparent process because street intimidation is so well leveraged.

In Chicago, you have to step in line, or you
fall out of favor. Then you suffer. If you step out of line too many times, you might just disappear.

This is entrenched in Obama’s mind. This is the same way he handled Hillary Clinton’s upper echelon supporters, like Bill Richardson for example. You either choose to be my friend or you will end up to be my enemy.

Mary Grabar hit the nail on the head in a recent article when she identified the, “who sent you,” aspect of how Machine politics works.

In Machine politics, the favored are favored only when their loyalty is absolute. Break that cycle and they break your face. Joe the Plummer just got a figurative taste of what happens when you break the cycle.

And first, on the agenda of legislation to be passed, after Obama is elected, is an effort to pass legislation to have open voting in Union elections. Can anyone say, “Open Intimidation?”

Early in the election I marveled at how Obama would declare that talk about his wife’s various political statements was simply off limits. Can anyone figure out or guess where he learned to embrace that form of dictatorial thinking?

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:47 am 61. crossover:

I am so glad you rich small business bastids will be paying my bills and give me health insurance while I am on the lake fishing.

I figure Obamas 500 year Reich/Utopia will last 3, then homeless out of work small business owners will steal my boat and take all my fish to feed their family’s.

Vote Obama 08.

“Heil Obama!”

“Long Live the Socialists Democrat Party.”

I need to renew my fishing license,
don’t want to get into trouble with the new Obamagruppenführer.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:56 am 62. ~Paules:

I find it appalling that anyone would refer to liberty as a mere “talking point.” Partisan leftists need to understand that when conservatives talk of liberty we hold the concept as a cherished principle. The only way to guarantee liberty is to restrict the power of government as much as possible. As a nation we have done a very poor job of that over the last 232 years. And, yes, George W. Bush is as guilty of expanding government as any president before him. I will never forgive him for betraying his conservative principles. But this election is not about Bush.

The current election is a referendum on Obama. He’s a socialist. If you believe in socialism, vote for him. But understand at least that government redistribution rarely benefits the people on the lower rungs. The poverty rate in this country has remained at about the same rate from 1964 to the present. America suffers an endemic underclass, only now due to government efforts the problem has become generational. Leftists might ask themselves why. Well? I’ll answer the question for you: placing more national wealth in the hands of government can have only one result . . . more government.

The part that scares me, and it should scare you, too, regardless of your political persuasion, is the media attempt to destroy a fellow American because he dissented. It’s not about Joe’s dreams, his perspective, or his politics. He has the right to dissent without being persecuted for it. He could be a complete moron, but he still has unalienable rights. What the media is doing is pure political thuggery.

And understand, my leftist fellow citizens, why conservatives fear an Obama presidency. We have a perspective on history. All the signs indicate that Obama is much more than a garden-variety socialist. He suffers from numerous character flaws which his supporters in their ardor for change fail to see. For God sakes, people, the man is a politician with all the potential for deception inherent in his profession. If we truly had in this nation a system that limits government, I could live with an Obama presidency. But we don’t, not anymore. The desire on his part for even more power, even before he’s elected, is a bad sign.

If Obama is not elected, our inner cities will burn. If he is elected, the republic will burn. Sometimes the choices are between bad and worse. And if leftists do not understand to what extent conservatives will defend liberty, then they haven’t studied history. It’s not a talking point. Liberty is something more valuable than life itself. We face dark times ahead.

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:00 am 63. JeffM:

i don’t know about joe the plumber’s taxes.i would just like to know how taxing my employer more is going help me?my income is in the mid 40s range,i have no doubt my taxes will go up.

in my fathers day the democrat party used to be for the working man,but no more.

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:04 am 64. jane:

I wonder if those who are happy about the small business owner paying increased taxes will be as happy when that small business owner decides he/she can’t afford them anymore?

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:29 am 65. Marc Malone:

Aisling – Equitable taxation? I find it despicable that the middle-class pay so little in taxes. They are middle-class, not poor. They are vested in this country and its economy. THEY should be paying more, not the rich. Trickle-down HAS worked. The middle-class since reagan now make 1/6 more after adjusting for inflation. They have: bigger homes; drive bigger cars; have bigger TV’s; own computers; have multiple phones; and importantly, have investments in the stock-market. when I was a kid, only the wealthy had such investments. More importantly, there are simply a lot more rich people. People have moved up.

As for the bailout, The super-rich and businesses give far, far more to Dems than to Pubs, Because THEY CAN BE BOUGHT MORE EASILY. It was the Pubs in Congress who balked at the bailout, not the Dems. All the lard in the bill went to Dems, while the Pubs pushed for extensions of tax breaks. The Dems opted for spending, while the Pubs opted for less taxes. Which style do you prefer?

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:44 am 66. ManekiNeko:

I am fairly sure that originally Obama said that no “one” making less than $250K would have their taxes increased. Now he is saying that no “family” making under $250K will have its taxes increased. This is a huge difference. Can anyone verify my recollection of the former statement?

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:59 am 67. AnonymousPatriot:

Welcome to the Modern Democrat Party:

Turning the American Dream into a nightmare, one tax-hike at a time.

Normal, regular, average run-of-the-mill Americans with their own opinions need not apply- especially Joe-the-Plumber types.

Oct 19, 2008 - 12:12 pm 68. Dave Surls:

“in my fathers day the democrat party used to be for the working man,but no more.”

They haven’t changed a bit. They’ve always been this way.

This is the party that sent the Cherokees on the Trail of Tears, this is the Party of slavery, this is the party of Jim Crow, this is the party that put INNOCENT Americans in concentration camps. This is the party that forced millions of young working men to fight in their foreign wars and put them in prison if they refused to be forced into involuntary servitude.

The Democrats have never been for the working man.

Never.

They’re out for themselves, and only themselves and it’s been that way since their party first emerged. They don’t give a crap about ordinary folks now, and they never have.

Oct 19, 2008 - 12:18 pm 69. softwaremama:

Why aren’t there any media trucks outside Bill Ayers’ house? Why not pick on him instead of “Joe” the plumber.

Oct 19, 2008 - 12:25 pm 70. AnonymousPatriot:

BHO’s tax increase for anyone making over $250k would go from 36% to 39%. A three percent difference. Big deal, you say? Let’s do the math on this:

First, the current 36%
$250,000
x .36 (36%)
= $90,000 in taxes (ouch!)

Now the proposed 39%
$250,000
x .39 (39%)
= $97,500 in taxes (double-ouch!)

That little 3% adds up to an additional $7,500 in taxation! This would be the minimum extra tax paid to the Federal government. It scales up from there.

$7,500 divided by 12 months would be $625 extra per month going to the government. Wouldn’t it be better if that $625 per month is spent on goods and services instead, actually putting that money back into the economy?

Don’t get me started on what one could do with the original $90k in tax dollars!

My .02

Oct 19, 2008 - 12:40 pm 71. Lorenzo:

AP I’m with you, but note this important “point”. Your math is correct but note your use of “three percent increase” here is inaccurate. This is an oft made repeated error, especially by candidates wishing to make the increase sound minuscule. A three point increase is actually an 3%/36%= 8.33% increase!!!! The correct terminology should be “three points difference”.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:12 pm 72. Saltherring:

~Paules @ 62 states:

“The part that scares me, and it should scare you, too, regardless of your political persuasion, is the media attempt to destroy a fellow American because he dissented… ….What the media is doing is pure political thuggery.”

It is obvious that Obama and his media are complicit in the “Joe the Plumber” story, otherwise Obama would have called off his dogs and apologized. But by his silence, Obama is sending a message to all who openly dissent that you had better “Keep your mouth shut or you may be next”.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:13 pm 73. harry:

The deck is stacked against Mccain yet he might win anyway. The bastard press knows Obama was brought down to Earth by a regular Joe so they try to smear him through their usual smear tactics. It also shows the press’s disdain for the common white man. Why do we take this crap anymore? We need to show our power. This can be done by boycott. Let’s boycott those that insult our point of view. We can also boycott their sponsors. Hey GM, hey Ford we’re not going to buy your merchandise if you keep sponsoring the same old leftists. News outlets have the responsibility to report truly and fairly and we are just not getting fair and balanced reporting. Far from it. Most of us want fair and balanced reporting and we want those who screw up to take the blame. The democrats are never wrong or always blame someone else. The republicans aren’t always wrong but they keep being painted that way. Years ago they called us the silent majority, I believe it’s time we started speaking up.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:27 pm 74. AnonymousPatriot:

Bill Menge:

So, according to your logic, people on the bottom can’t go upward without taking someone else’s money.

In America, people still have the opportunity to realize their dreams; all it takes is hard work, sacrifice, dedication and a plan. One doesn’t even need to have a college degree either.

I know this personally because I’ve done it, so whenever I hear some ideologue pop off about how the US taxpayer should pay more to help the people on the lower rungs of society it makes me angry.

I saw the opportunity, took the risk, and invested the time and money to seize the opportunity. I work 70+ hours per week for my business and make a six figure income. I work my ass off for the money and I’ll make no complaints about that. However, I will and do complain when some politician tells me that I make too much money and they want to take more from me. Last year the business paid over $96k in taxes.

What do you think happens when businesses have to pay more in taxes? They raise the costs of their goods and services to offset the taxes, passing those tax hikes onto their customers. Ultimately the consumers pay for the tax hikes, including the ones at the bottom.

The opportunities are always there to move up, you just have to be willing to make them happen and the government shouldn’t penalize those that do it.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:36 pm 75. candide:

You know when you are working and know that your taxes will go to support a couple of people who are NOT, then that much money is drained from the economy. Money which could be used to help those who help themselves is siphoned off as crypto WELFARE. We have been down the welfare road, it is psychologically and economically destructive and destroys the fabric of society in a multitude of ways that ultimately impact on the economic well being of the hard workers. So it FALSE that we are giving anyone a leg UP, they are dragging the taxpayers DOWN. So you never get rich in socialism unless you are a George Soros…who wants to spread socialism around, not the wealth. He is running on more taxes and tax credit welfare and raising taxes on those who are trying to run a small business…all this in a recession where his party just passed a bailout for the FAT CATS. Now Colin Powell finds this economic policy steady and full speed ahead to socialism.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:37 pm 76. thrifty:

Obama told his followers in September to get out and argue and get in their face! They have followed his orders to the letter. Just like these young men on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPnmHe62pi8&feature=related

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:40 pm 77. Brad:

Hey Jay Brezny, Joe the Plumber is a regular guy, one who is NOT SELFISH. I too do not make $250,000 and probably never will. That being said, I don’t want hand outs, I don’t believe in hand outs and am not selfish. I don’t believe people should be punished for making money so I can be given money I didn’t earn – its called being unselfish and responsible. Its called DEMOCRACY as opposed to SOCIALISM (Obama big time). Plus, you and I will pay more in taxes under Obama, its already been proven that his tax code will take us ALL back to the Clinton days and I did pay more tax (percentage wise) under Clinton than I do now or would under McCain. In addition, you overtax the rich and business owners, they raise the price of their goods and services (as any good business man would do) – which means WE pay their tax increase. Come back to reality man and support democracy would ya!

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:41 pm 78. Pincus:

Pretty funny actually. All this talk of socialism and liberty and such. Exactly how much money has your Republican leadership borrowed for their PNAC dreams? How much debt has been dumped in all your God-fearing laps? How much American dream “wealth” has been destroyed, from the Bush cronies at Enron to the “drunks” on Wall Street while the capitalists pursured their luxuries with Republican compliance? And now, how much taxpayer money has been dumped into those same corrupt institutions to keep the con game going?

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:42 pm 79. Concerned Citizen:

Dave Surls…. CORRECT!

I’m sure there are more of these kinds of infringements of liberty to come under Obama. But they’ll be OK, since he’s a constitutional law expert, right?

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:48 pm 80. You Gotta Be Kidding Me:

How someone rounded as many dumba$$es onto one forum is beyond me. If someone is earning $40K in 2008, has no degree or cetification, or no outstanding skill, it is highly unlikely that they will be earning over $250K in the next 4 years. No one ever said “Fake Joe” or anyone else could try flipping their burgers faster in an effort to increase their income. And to all of you that think that the Republicans are the party for the little guy, name me one thing that they did for the little guy during Reagan’s 8 years or Bush’s 8 years. Bush didn’t even change the abortion laws when the Republicans had control of congress because he knew it would be political suicide.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:50 pm 81. gardel va:

I’ve been amused by the conservative outrage at the efforts by the news media to discover the real Joe the Plumber story. No one of them complains about media outlets digging up the past of every Obama acquaintance for the past 20 years. But suddenly, when Joe thrusts himself into the limelight, this type of reporting becomes off limits. I might feel a bit sorry for Joe if he were making any effort to remain private, but he seems to be revelling in the attention — appearing on TV talk shows, and talking to just about anyone who will listen.

The other reason why the true Joe story seems to me to be legitimate is that McCain has repeatedly held Joe out as a real life example of someone who is hurt now by Obama’s policies. The fact that he is HELPED rather than hurt is, therefore, a legitimate point in the bigger debate about whether the Democratic candidate’s policies are good for normal people.

Finally, it’s telling that the folks attacking Obama for the Joe the Plumber encounter never use the full quote. For example, in the initial post, the author reproduces it as “Obama said that, if elected, he planned to ’spread the wealth around’ from the well-to-do to the not-so-well-off.” The absence of the quotes around the latter part of the statement demonstrate that the “redistributionist” attack point is the author’s conclusion, rather than Obama’s statement. In fact, it’s clear from a full quotation that by “spread the wealth around,” Obama is talking about policies that foster achievement by everyone, and not just the few at the top who benefited from the Bush Admistration policies that EVERYONE is now paying for.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:51 pm 82. AnonymousPatriot:

Lorenzo:

You are correct; point well taken!

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:55 pm 83. Bart:

Let’s see. Joe doesn’t make much money. Obama proposes to cut his taxes and make his health care more affordable. If Joe would someday earn more than $250,000 per year in taxable income, the marginal rate for what he earns over $250K would be increased by a few pecentage points. This is bad?? Joe would be getting a good deal until he clears more than $250,000 and then the rate on the amount above that would be a little higher. Obama’s proposal will give Joe a better chance to be successful. What the heck are you dopes complaining about??

Also, over the past 20 years or so, hasn’t one of the trends been that the wealthiest Americans have gotten wealthier (in an era of lower tax rates and deregulation) than the least wealthy Americans? That is, hasn’t the gap widened? So havn’t we experienced a redistribution of wealth in that direction over the past two plus decades? Redistribution is OK if the rich get richer, right??

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:56 pm 84. Buck Foss:

This is McCain’s version of Reagan’s mythical welfare queen – and it points out the real problem of the Republican party. They want things to fit into nice little paradigms, despite the facts. It’s true of the Iraq war, it was true of Reagan’s welfare queen (who only went back to work because of Bill Clinton) and it’s true of Joe the Plumber.

Let’s look at Joe the Plumber. He is an unlicensed worker, who can’t pay his taxes and oh btw, he will get a hefty tax decrease due to Obama’s policies. But he buys into the conservative folly that someday he can be rich. GET REAL! He’s 43 years old and his most fruitful working years have been under a Republican president and Congress. And economically, he’s nowhere.

He’s not a small businessman – he’s a modern day blue-collar walter middy. And the Republican Party can’t figure out the truth, but want to believe in a blow hard fake that isn’t what he set himself out to be.

Look and find the real world, Republican – get out of your ivory towers.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:56 pm 85. Thotman:

The QUESTION is not the story, the ANSWER is the story. Joe should not be the focus, OBAMA and his frightful confession should be the focus. The harder the media, the Democrats, the Obama supporters try to denegrate the questioner, the more aware I am that the REPLY must be the information they dont what us to examine. Spreading around the wealth…a very simple philosophy our country has been fighting against for my life time…and now we are about to surrender to those who promote it…voluntarily

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:58 pm 86. Joe Plumber of Issues:

Ohhhyeah riiiiight…the drubbing from the Dems…give me a break…this guy’s not even a licensed plumber…he owes back taxes….HOW VERY AMERICAN OF HIM!!!

So, let’s see…I guess from the fact that he hasn’t paid taxes we can call him a terrorist as he doesn’t support our troops by not paying taxes. And yet he’s worried about his 250k job?? yeah, Joe, the typical American…

you guys are so full of it…stop spouting rhetorical crap about socialism…if you had any huevos you’d be talking about the bailout plan rather than worrying about this issue. WAKE UP AND STOP WATCHING HANNITY and use your heads.

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:58 pm 87. Joules48084:

This goes beyond taxes!! Take a look and see what we have waiting for us if Obama win!! A thug-ocracy!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 1:58 pm 88. Erik031:

Yes! What indeed has become of them? And that leftie media?
I mean McCain mensions this guy a couple of hundred times on prime time television and then all this socialist reporters come running down to this innocent, decent mans house and charge him with all this accusations, especially the real smear argument: that he would actually get a tax cut by Obama. I mean there must be some tactic of Obama’s behind all of this surely?

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:00 pm 89. Detached Observor:

joe the plumber and sarah the vp have significant traits and circumstances in common. Both are poseurs pretending to a competence and expertise that is lacking. The pretensions of both have been exposed through the media and public scrutiny. In both cases, delusional republicans see such exposure as proof that the media and means of public scrutiny are biased toward the democrats. It is typical of the dishonest politics on both sides that the republicans seize upon a meaningless phrase (”spread the wealth around”) and tart it up as a principle of Obama’s thought. Of course, there is equal stupidity on the other side, e.g., “bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.”

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:03 pm 90. Louis T. Sigel:

Let’s not pretend that ‘Joe the Plumber’ is your average Joe. He is not just a regular Republican either even though he is a registered Republican and voted in the last couple of Republican primaries.
‘Joe the Plumber’ is, in fact, Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, who moved to Ohio from Arizona a few years ago. His father is Robert Wurzelbacher, Jr, who served time in federal prison for his role in the savings and loan scandal. Robert Wurzelbacher, Jr, is also the son-in-law of the biggest savings and loan crook–Charles Keating. That makes ‘Joe the Plumber’ Charles Keating’s grandson! McCain is going back to his Keating 5 fame by highlighting ‘Joe the Plumber’!

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:03 pm 91. Lawrence:

You people are all fools. The point is that Joe the Plumber was a set-up. He was lying about his income and also is obviously not even patriotic enough to pay the taxes that he owes under the current Bush tax plan.

Obama is merely seeking to reverse the horrible Bush tax cuts for the rich. Alot of those rich people didnt make their money by starting businesses or working real hard. Alot of them made it by inheritance, or by marrying the right person. Alot of them made it by knowing the right person or being lucky enough to graduate from an Ivy League school. Luck is a big part of wealth.

I AM a small business owner – started it in our apartment and now it makes more than $250,000 a year in profits. There are so many legal tax breaks for small business – I can invest up to $45,000 in an individual 401K, I can invest up to $250,000 this year in equipment and write it all off (Section 179 deduction), I get to write off my medical insurance, I get to write-off a portion of my auto and my home office expense, etc. I can probably make about $400K income before I even reach the $250,000 threshold.

All you Republicans have left are calling people names. Socialist. OK, whatever. As a country we are tired of the lack of solutions from your party. The longer you hang-on to your bad policies, the farther your party will slide into oblivion. Good riddance.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:05 pm 92. valwayne:

Poor Joe the Plumber. He asked “The ONE” a question. Worse for him Obama answered it. Obama wants to share the wealth. We’ve never had a President who wanted to play Robin Hood with the tax system before…but we may be about to elect one. Obama’s supporters seem to think that the admission from “The ONE” on taxes is damaging and they are blaming Joe for asking the question. Therefore, he to be destroyed. Watching them whip up a lynch mob in “The Obama’s” name to string up poor Joe is ironic beyond words, but that’s what we can expect under an Obama Presidency…..no post politics..it will be ugly. For the record…I do not earn anywhere near 250K a year…and I’m very envious that Bill Gates and Warren Buffet among others have billions and tens of billions while I have to worry about living under a bridge when I retire. If we’re going to do the Robin Hood thing lets strip all of those multi-billionairs of their wealth and improve social security so we can all have a good retirement. 2 million is enough for anyone…lets take the rest. And somebody shut up Joe?

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:07 pm 93. Tom Grubisich:

Joe Wurzelbacher should not be criticized for questioning Barack Obama. But the McCain campaign has tried to make Wurzelbacher a prime example of what’s wrong with Obama’s tax proposals — and there’s no way that this guy can be the round peg to fit in that round hole. Joe is very articulate, a great ad-libber and has a nice sense of humor, but, to begin with, he is not a small business person or a likely candidate to become one. He works for a two-person plumbing company that operates out of the garage of the owner. He says he’s interested in buying the business. But his interest, at this point, is unrealistic. First, he doesn’t have even an apprentice plumbing license, much less a journeyman license. Second, his salary — $40,000 last year, according to court records — would not make him even remotely eligible to qualify for a loan of $1 million — what he’d need to buy a plumbing business that netted him more than the $250,000 income that would raise his taxes under the Obama plan. Third, if Wurzelbacher can’t manage to earn even an apprentice license, how could he possibly navigate the hurdles to become a small business person — even if his goals were more modest than earning what only 2 percent of Americans make? Creating and managing a small business, and surviving financially, is staggeringly difficult (I know from personal experience). I’m sure Wurzelbacher, based on his deft media encounters, could produce terrific press releases for for any plumbing company he managed to start. But I see no evidence that he could handle the financial and operational demands involved in being a successful small business person. How about being a commentator on a cable network, a position that apparently requires no qualifications besides vibrating your vocal chords faster than you think?

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:09 pm 94. jdcarmine:

The Obama Bubble will burst, that is certain. But not until the masses who mindlessly adore him today find their lives little changed, if not much worsened, by June. Then they will loathe him. Obama is a dream not a reality. Dreams are not likely to be rewarded when the pain of reality moves to the fore.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:12 pm 95. sean o:

Dear Joe the plumber: I’ve been working hard every day as a lawyer for 28 years. I have no hope of retiring any time soon, in my still middle or once old age. And, although I think many regard me as very accomplished, I’ve no hope of ever earning $250,000 per year, the folks you’re worrying about taxing. I admire Obama for his foreign policy and his health care stance. I’m okay with the tax cuts he proposes for me and other folks who aren’t truly “rich”. I am hopeful that he can afford to pay for the most expensive mistake I think our country’s ever made without taxing us all – I can’t imagine how at 10 billion a month for all these years. But yes, would I rather see a cut for those in need than those who’ve benefitted from the Republican policies of ever greater breaks for those who need it least of all – absolutely. Joe, you’re on the wrong team this time.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:13 pm 96. T:

Why is Obama responsible for the media digging into Joe’s business? I agree that the media should leave this guy alone; regardless of whether he’s a licensed plumber or not, he raised a legitimate question that deserved a thorough answer, which is what Obama gave him. McCain is the one who thrust Joe the Plumber into the public spotlight, not Obama. The Republicans are now trotting Joe out as a victim because the media, NOT the Obama campaign, has begun investigating his dirty laundry. This is about as credible as the Republicans blaming the Obama campaign for the media looking into Sarah Palin’s past — i.e., it’s NOT credible. And neither are you, Mr. Navarette, unless you explain why you believe the media’s scrutiny of Joe the Plumber is Obama’s fault.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:14 pm 97. CJ Gorst:

Mr. Navarette (and/or Ms. Rosett), could you point to one instance of Senators Obama or Biden taking “pot-shots” at Joe the Plumber? You cite no examples, taking it as assumed; Ms. Rosett links to one example, but it describes Senator Obama as criticizing Senator McCain for mischaracterizing plumbers as examples of people who make over $250,000, since most make less. That’s a far cry from taking a “pot-shot” at Mr. Wurzelbacher.

I agree with you that the media’s treatment of Mr. Wurzelbacher has been distasteful – he asked a question of a candidate, and then a few days later found the media hounding his past. But I do not see how, with no examples, you’ve brought Senator Obama, Senator McCain, and “the well-to-do elites who run the Democratic Party” into your commentary. That fails even the barest standards of journalistic integrity, Mr. Navarette.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:17 pm 98. Pi:

You americans are weird.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:19 pm 99. B. Rockwell:

Hey Mr. Navarrette, why is it considered “drubbing” merely to investigate the claims that “Joe the Plumber made? He claimed he was a plumber trying to buy a business, and that Obama’s tax plan (specifically, the modest increase in taxes for those making over $250K) would make it more difficult. And John McCain championed his cause. Well, as it turns out the guy’s not a plumber, and he’s not thinking of buying the business, and his boss isn’t thinking of selling. And the business doesn’t make anywhere near the amount that would put his earnings over $250K even if he were to buy it. So ironically “Joe the Plumber” would be considerably better off under Obama’s tax policies than currently, whether or not he bought the business. As it turns out it was just a Republican hit on Obama, with no basis in fact or reality whatsoever. And you think that finding these facts out is an example of “drubbing” the poor idiot? Get your head out of the sand, Rube.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:22 pm 100. Rick:

I have never seen a political party as out of touch as the Repub Party. This party doesn’t even realize that the “Joe the Plumber” baloney isn’t working. McCain is flailing like a politician who knows he has lost, but is not man enough to go down with dignity.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:25 pm 101. geokstr:

What the left is trying to misdirect the attention from is Obama’s own words about “spreading the wealth around”.

It really doesn’t matter if “Joe” is really Karl Rove in disquise, no one forced The (Arrogant) One to open his yap.

Here’s a really chilling article about why He is the way He is:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/71124

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:28 pm 102. t corde:

[In media interviews, Joe acknowledged that he earns nowhere near that amount at the moment. But he said he expects to cross the $250,000 threshold someday.]

Wouldnt it be easier for Joe to build his business to the point where he is able to make 250k a year, if he is less burdened with taxes now while making 60-70k a year (or whatever he makes, I would guess not much since he is unlicensed and has a lien against his house).

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:28 pm 103. Al:

Oh please, take the propaganda elsewhere. Joe even admitted he doesn’t make $250,000+ a year.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:29 pm 104. trangbang68:

#19- Shimmy, I went to your blog to try to find the Rosetta stone to try to uncover the total incomprehension in your post; only to find more confusion. Then I discovered the key in your profile, Address :Chicago, AMERIKA. You actually spelled it wrong. It is spelled with three K’s.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:31 pm 105. Marvin Sinclair:

Joe the Plumber in an interview said, “I don’t want to tax someone for the money they earn and give it to me. I’ll earn my own money.”

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:32 pm 106. Shimmy:

Thanks for a great comment, Lawrence!

(Joe Wurzelbacher told Sarah Palin to keep silent about his plans until the deal went through. But as soon as Joe stepped out of the room, Sarah Palin called Sean Hannity and said, “I asked the question but I still got a tap dance . . . almost as good as Sammy Davis, Jr.”)

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:36 pm 107. harry:

Re: Post “37.
BC your knee jerk leftist response is amazing.
What’s the difference what Joe is or who he is and what he makes. He asked a legitimate question to a man running for President, and he got an answer which you couldn’t handle so you go into a frenzy by demonizing Joe. If you want to hear bastard questions then tune in to the six o’clock news when they ask anyone not fitting their agenda. It is so disgustingly perverted as to make one puke.
Government, especially the democrats, believe business owners have money trees growing out of their back yards. They tax tax tax and fee fee fee businesses to death. So now Obama says that is not enough! I will give away your hard working money to those under you. Obama forgets about the responsibilities involved in owning a business. Let’s examine them shall we?
There’s rent, payroll, payroll taxes paid by the employer for each employee, unemployment tax, utilities, insurance, health insurance, union dues where applicable, sales tax, and a host of fees just for doing business, plus other assorted overhead and taxes. And then there’s state and local taxes too. Before a businessman can earn a dime he must pay all of these first. And what responsibilities does the employee have? Just getting his ass to work and having taxes taken out of his paycheck. Office rent, heat, A/C, sanitation, maintenance, mortgages are not his responsibility. Now can you see how utterly pathetic Obama’s answer is? Obama I paid my employees and my taxes but you want to punish me some more? Screw you. And the media who should have stomped on Obama’s lame answer castigated the average Joe instead, how pathetic.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:38 pm 108. Gizelle:

To Lawrence: Joe is not running for the Presidency Obama is and so the only important point here is Obama’s answer to the question even if the question was hypothetical from Joe’s point of view. Spreading the wealth around is going to cost a great deal to people earning much less than $250,000 per year. If we don’t see the difference between our gross and net salaries diminish due to taxes it will diminish due to hugh deductions for National Health and all sorts of other programs we will be forced to participate in.

The questioning of ‘Joe the plumber’s’ right to ask questions of a government official tells us too just what sort of regime they plan. The implication here is that we won’t have a right to question an Obama regime. In fact I wonder if we will have any rights

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:39 pm 109. Aisling:

Do any of you folks get health insurance through your employer? Are you ready to trade that off for a $5,000 tax credit when McCain pays an insurance company (not regulated by your state)for your health care? Bear in mind that not all states require insurers to cover birth control, well woman exams, cosmetic surgery due to accident or severe injury, etc. Thanks, but I’ll choose Obama’s plan which allows my employer to continue my coverage (which runs about $13,000 a year).

I think that in a year or two, if conservatives are honest, they’ll realize how much better off they are under President Obama than they would have been under McCain.

For those who think taxation is “theft”, I have no answers because that’s just a foolish assertion. The gap between the wealthy and the middle class has increased enormously since WWII. (Research it and see the facts.)

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:39 pm 110. Morpheum:

Ruben, IIRC John McCain is the one who cast the media spotlight on “Joe” not Barack Obama. Go back and look at the debate. McCain is the first one to mention him. Guess what? Unlike you who just follows whatever Republican talking points you see on Rush or Sean, other people in the media actually got check facts. God forbid that someone question John McCain’s version of anything. He’s perfect! He pals around with a terrorist named G. Gordon Liddy. Republicans create the caricatures of working class Americans like “Joe” because they have never supported policies that help working people. TELL ME WHY JOHN MCCAIN WANTS TO RAISE TAXES ON MY HEALTH CARE? When I was between jobs, COBRA for my family was $1300/month. McCains tax break wouldn’t even pay for 4 months of my families premiums. So under McCain I would pay $10,400 dollars more for my health insurance and HAVE MY BENEFITS TAXED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY. Sorry, but I’m not that stupid.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:42 pm 111. amanda Jankowski:

This guy is not relevant, as he is a fraud. His fifteen minutes are up–

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:50 pm 112. Fetiche Nouvelle:

Oh, right. Joe Wurzelbacher was a “set up.” Of course, that doesn’t explain why Obama approached Joe, in front of his very own house — and why the Mainstream Media have chosen to conceal what Obama said in favor of misrepresenting what Joe said. (He never claimed to be making $250,000; he merely expressed an interest in acquiring a company that earns that much.)

Obama’s worshippers appear to be determined to persuade us that they’re idiots, each and every one. Or that they have no compunction against lying in the service of The One.

I am Joe the Plumber — and so are you.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:53 pm 113. Red Blooded American:

Let’s see…

On the one hand have Joe the plumber, the standard assortment of neocon fellow-travelers, Ed Wallis, and an assortment of fear-mongering McCarthyite nutbags calling Obama a socialist as justification for their advocacy of an “anyone but Obama” point of view.

On the other hand we have a wide assortment of people from many different backgrounds, such as Lawrence (see post #92 in this thread), Colin Powell and Warren Buffett and many solid, truly conservative business folks and leaders vocally, democrats, republicans and independents, supporting Obama.

Draw your own conclusions.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:55 pm 114. Haha:

The financial crisis again shows Obama’s lack of good judgment. In the current financial situation, most econmists agree that tax hike, even on the rich only, would deal a disastrous blow to the economy. Obama’s tax plan to tax the rich and spread the wealth is counter to the current crisis and shows that he didn’t see this coming even though the economy has sent so many warning signals. He shows bad judgment is his selection of friends and partners, bad judgment is declaring he would talk to Iran without precondition, bad judgment in opposing the Surge, and now bad judgment in foreseeing economic trends by forwarding a tax plan that would worsen the economy. All kinds of misjudgments and people still vote for him ?
One can’t blame his supporters. All they want is money from government, and they don’t care where it comes from. Confiscate from the rich ? fine. Sink the economy ? who cares. Give them free health care, free housing, free education, food stamp, and remember a tax credit check and they will vote for you.

Oct 19, 2008 - 2:58 pm 115. Robin:

If Obama wins, instead of starting a business as originally planned, I intend to quit my job as a nurse and go on the dole. I want to be the spreadee. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:00 pm 116. Frank W:

so much for the tolerance the dems are always preaching!!! Of course most of us know that they are a bunch of hypocritical, intolerant phonies. The party hacks, I am talking about, the regular every daY DEMS. ARE GETTING SKREWED!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:02 pm 117. Lee in Ventura:

I have no love for the Democratic Party, but I don’t harbor the illusion, as Ruben Navarrette apparently does, that the Democrats play dirty while the Republicans are moral exemplars. Both parties would ruin Joe The Plumber if they thought doing so would advance their interests. Ironically, it is not the Democratic Party but rather Mr. Navarrette and his media colleagues who have gutted Joe for public inspection. The other irony is that there is no news in any of this. Obama has been clear and consistent about his tax philosophy. He wants to increase the burden on corporations and high earners and reduce the burden on everyone else. For those who have a problem with that and would rather see tax cuts for the wealthiest among us, McCain is your man. On Nov. 4 we all get to have our say. In the meantime, writers like Mr. Navarrette do us all a disservice by needlessly adding fuel to the fire with shallow essays like this one.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:02 pm 118. david:

Your indignation is misplaced. McCain should have thought carefully about dragging Joe the Plumber into the election. McCain should have known that his touting Joe the Plumber would invite media curiosity. The problem is that Joe the Plumber wasn’t who he claimed to be. Did McCain really think he could mention Joe without some sort of follow up? The Democrats didn’t do this. McCain did by failing to check with an average guy before throwing him into the national spotlight.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:03 pm 119. Mark:

The problem with Joe is that he is an obvious RNC plant just like all of the brainless wonders that they trot out to McCain to ask the most stupid of questions that have nothing to do with the situation in the United States. Joe is getting what he deserves as he has been less than truthful about his own status. A plumber making 250K is not believable and a guy who hasn’t even been through the apprentice program is now going to buy his own plumbing contracting company? It not even close to being believable.

Republicans and the mantra about the socialist is pure party puke. There is a need in this country for some wealth parity. After all of the Repubs making all of their (Not Really theirs) money in the last 8 years on the backs of Sub Prime borrowers I guess I would be a little nervous too about the chickens that are coming to roost! Obama is clearly the best choice for president and I don’t know how thinking people could view otherwise.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:04 pm 120. harry:

Lawrence what happens next year if you make bupkus? Will the gov’t give you your taxes back?
Are you really a businessman because you didn’t mention the risks and responsibilites a businessman has. Show me where you can invest 45,000 into a 401K, for 2008 it was 15,500 maximum for all plans. That 250,000 equipment is a business expense. You had to actually spend the money not just pencil it on your return. Your home office expenses should be reported on your personal return as income! Many tax deductions disappear for those earning way less than 250K.
Your thesis for how the rich get rich is full of spit! A typical knee jerk response by an uninformed leftist. Stop the BS Larry.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:06 pm 121. Cyrus:

This fake moral outrage about “What has happened to the Democratic Party” is just that: fake.

Here’s the bottom line: the Democratic Party has always, however imperfectly, supported policies that support workers, public health, public safety, and the rights of the lower and middle classes. The majority of Republicans are poor to middle class, and they would actually be better off under Democratic policies. However, they have been tricked into thinking that “big government” is the enemy, voting against candidates that actually want to use government to make positive changes in people’s lives. Ironically, the interests that support these anti-big government Republican messages are rich, corporate entities.

So, what started out in the days of the New Deal as a populist movement to get big-corporations off of your back and use the government to protect workers has been transformed – by Republican think tanks backed by wealthy dollars – into a populist movement to get government out of business pockets, to the detriment of the majority of Americans, who happend to be lower to middle-class.

Congratulations Republicans. You’ve been duped by your own financial backers, while you continue to buy their bull and do their dirty work for them.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:06 pm 122. Eric:

That is BS that “a lot of poor people made bad decisions” and don’t deserve help. Most are poor because they can’t get out of poverty.

Sure there are Rich people who made their money through hard work and those people typically are happy to give back to the country that helped them achieve it. Look at Bill Gates who intends to give away all of his money to charity at death and thinks the government should take it from him if he doesn’t give it away.

How does your argument work for the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Carnegies, DuPonts, Vanderbilts, etc. etc. What hard work have the present generations of these people done?

I’m not saying they don’t have a right to exist or be wealthy, and I don’t agree with Bill Gates on the Death tax, but these people are in their position because of the economic situation they were born into.

In the EXACT same way, poor, often minority, children are born into their circumstances and do not have the same opportunities for success.

No one is talking about making everyone equal by force or even taking all that much money and redistributing it. (AFDC when it was reformed under Clinton represented .05% of just the entitlement budget) Do you really think poor single parent women were living off $150 a month because they were lazy or made bad decisions? Now you’ve made them go back to work and made them abandon their children. Real nice.

And what about your tax cuts for owning a house? I rent, so why are you stealing my money with your deductible interest?

The Democrat agenda IS NOT SOCIALISM. Its just providing services for a different sector of the population. Primarily the middle class, who have been raped by the rich for 8 years. The robbery, and the spreading of the wealth, has been in the other direction – spread into the hands of the banking class. For the past 28 years the Rich have systematically stolen our livelihoods with NOTHING in return. Taxing this class now would only represent a correction and a relatively slight one.

If I had $250,000 A YEAR – IN PROFITS – I wouldn’t mind someone taking $87,500 vs. $82,500 – I still have $162,500 A YEAR left. And I wouldn’t have to pay payroll taxes.

And, I’m sorry, but YES I do think I have the right to demand this of the Rich. I’ve been working EXTREMELY HARD to help their economy and its nearly impossible to get to the level they are at without some sort of political accommodation along the way. To go back to Bill Gates, if there were government protections of Patents and Commerce and a Legal System he wouldn’t be Rich.

If it weren’t for the systematic robbery of the Middle and Lower classes under the fictitious concept of “The Free Market” and “Individual Choice”, neither of which have or will ever exist – our economy would actually be functional right now.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:07 pm 123. Roberto L:

How Obama o Biden insulted or drubbed Joe the Plumber? I did not read one example on how Obama o Biden criticized this guy. What’s your point? You could critize the media for vetting “the Plumber”, but no the Obama campaign. Very deceiving writing or headline Navarrette.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:11 pm 124. Therese:

Have you noticed that Obama doesn’t retract or even try to explain his “spread the wealth” comment? This is because he meant it.

Obama is a socialist and his “fundamental change” that he talks about is a “fundamental change from capitalism to socialism.” Obama knows that most Americans don’t want this, so he has been talking around it. But Joe the Plumber revealed the truth by asking a simple, little question. Now they are trying to destroy Joe.

But the truth is out. And people like me are pissed off at how they are treating Joe, too. We’ll all be voting for John McCain!

I say thank you to Joe the Plumber for opening everyone’s eyes!

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:12 pm 125. Phil:

The other part of taxation that isn’t talked about in part of the American dream is the capital gains tax. Mr. Wurzelbacher’s dream is to own his own business. At the end of a career, when Mr. Wurzelbacher or any other small business owner looks at retirement he will propably sell that business (just like Joe’s current boss may sell the business to Joe). The profit from that sale is a capital gain. A higher capital gains tax cuts right into your built up retirement, whether that is from the sale of stocks in your 401k, a small business, what have you. It certainly is not irrational to foregoe a transitory benefit, in Joe’s case $500 annually, in unearned redistributed wealth to look out for your own long-term finacial future based on keeping and spending your own accumulated wealth.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:12 pm 126. ConservativeDem:

The McCain campaign has attempted to make Joe the Plumber an example of how Obama’s tax policies would end up stifling and suffocating the American Dream. In point of fact, the American Dream has been dead for the last eight years. Indeed, the policies of the Republican Party, i.e., trickle-down economics and compassionate conservativism, have already destroyed the American Dream for millions of Americans. Simply because the media and the Democratic Party have the audacity to point out that “Joe the Plumber” is a canard is not the fault of the Democratic Party, but merely the glaring spotlight revealing the warts on another one of the McCain campaign’s attempts to distract us from the truth. Government has grown 54% in the last 8 years, our federal deficit is approaching $1 trillion dollars, our national debt is at $10 trillion, and the numbers of Americans in poverty has grown almost 25% from just over 30m in 2000 to 37.3 million in 2007. Joe the Plumber should not be upset with Obama’s tax policies, but with Republican policies that are barely keeping Joe the Plumber’s head above all that water sprung from the leaky toilet that has been Republican governance.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:16 pm 127. Shefali:

One thing some of the critics of Joe seem to have missed – OBAMA walked up Joe’s drive-way to talk to him – so how could Joe be a plant, unless there was some mind-control telling Obama what drive-way to walk up? So, Obama walks up Joe’s drive-way in a media event, talks to Joe, and finds out the guy doesn’t support Obama and asks him a serious question. Obama, caught without a teleprompter, actually says what he really believes, that we should “spread the wealth”. Unfortunately for Obama, he gets caught on video saying that.

Now, instead of coming out and explaining his response, Obama’s campaign goes after Joe. They get on his case for not having a license, but don’t mention that in his state, he doesn’t need the license for residential plumbing. They get on his case for the back taxes he owes (about $1K) but don’t mention that Biden also owed back taxes. A few years ago, my husband and I ended up owing taxes, not because we were trying to stiff the government, but we’d made a mistake on our taxes due to the complexity of the tax code and our situation at the time. No problem, we paid what we owed. They can’t understand why anyone would stand on principle vs. caving in to immediate self interest. So, does that mean it’s OK for me to steal, if I knew I’d never get caught? Because I believe in absolutes (stealing is wrong), I wouldn’t do it even if I knew I’d never get caught. Unfortunately many politicians don’t share that value.

My parents came here from India. That country is the world’s biggest democracy, which is great. unfortunately, they had a socialist economic system, which is why my dad came here. He had a degree from MIT, but still couldn’t provide a decent life for his family there. Over here, despite discrimination (and when he came over here racial discrimination was much more prevalent) and despite cultural barriers, he was able to take care of his family and send his kids to college. We all got graduate degrees.

The reality is – hand-outs are not the answer. Creating a climate where people who work hard can have upward mobility is much better because it helps motivate people to innovate and create and succeed. What socialism does is shrink the middle class. The rich stay rich because they can bribe officials, hire tax attorneys, find tax shelters, etc., and keep their money from being taken. The poor are happy because they get their bread and circuses. The middle class, however, suffers. They get taxed to pay for the programs for the poor, since the rich can avoid being taxed. And they find it much harder to climb from the lower middle class to the upper middle class or to the levels of the rich. also, the poor have a harder time rising to the levels of the middle class. Those among the poor and lower middle class who have no ambition, however, and who like taking from those who are more successful – they will do just fine under socialism.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:17 pm 128. Cal:

Sheesh Jay, do you have to be that dishonest?

“So Joe the Plumber admits he would get a tax break under Obama’s plan, but he doesn’t want a tax break because someday he will be rich.”

But that’s not what he said. He’ll get a tax break under McCain as well, he just doesn’t see the point in expanding a business and creating jobs if he’s going to be punished for it. Listen to what he actually said, dumb dumb.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:19 pm 129. McCain the Liar hides behind Joe the Plumber (with update):

[...] And here is what some guy at Pajamas Media had to say about the assault on Joe: I realize it’s all about winning at this point. But someone [...]

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:22 pm 130. jane:

Since Louis T. Sigel #91 is all concerned about Joe the Plumbers personal background I have to wonder what his background might yeild. Are we to believe that Louis T. Sigel is who he really is? Maybe someone should google and check his tax records, see if there are any prison records on him or his children, etc.

Sheesh you left-wing loons bellyached about how terrible it was that the current administration “violated” your personal rights but you seem to have absolutely no problem personally going after a guy for asking a question. Oops – I forgot – it was a question that put the Obammahomma in a bad light.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:26 pm 131. James Smith:

His name isn’t Joe, he’s not a plumber, he is not an indepenedent. He is not in the the tax range in question. Why are you still using ‘Joe’ the McCain plant, to make your point?…..that’s the real question.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:27 pm 132. Len:

Obama didn’t flub the answer, he told the truth, he pulled back the curtain and let us see, unintentionally, just how he thinks. The fact that “Joe” is being pilloried is evidence of just how badly the Obama campaign and their blogosphere minions, not to mention the media, want to hide this little fact. Time and again surveys show that most folk don’t envy the wealthy because they too want to be wealthy someday. The Democrats have to foment this idea that it’s not life that’s unfair, but the rich, or the tax system, who are unfair, in order to get elected.

A previous submitter made the point that “Joe” is irrelevant and he’s right. “Joe” is aspiring to more and his question is legitimate, even if some don’t think he is. The same question from a doctor, lawyer or a McDonald’s franchisee would be the same and just as valid. That’s why Joe is being attacked, to deflect the importance and validity of the question.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:28 pm 133. Andrew P:

Nobody is “for the little guy”. The Republicans aren’t, and the Democrats surely are not either. The little guy has no real influence, and so why would anyone be for him? At best, the “little guy” is a prop to be used by campaigns and then discarded. There is only political profit in being for a group of elites, since only elites contribute and volunteer for campaigns. There are Democratic elites, and Republican elites, and business elites that change their tune with their finger in the wind. They are the only people that really matter. “Joe the Plumber” is only a fictional, metaphorical “little guy” who is currently a Republican prop, and has been discredited as a fictional prop by the Democrats.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:36 pm 134. homey:

John McCain used Joe the Plumber to smear Obama. We now know that Obama will not, in fact, raise Joe’s taxes. Either McCain knew this and didn’t mind lying, or he didn’t both doing his research. Either way it is a mark against him.

It is pretty funny that anyone would argue that this example shows that Democrats are against “the little guy”. What it really shows is how the GOP has lied to and manipulated “the little guy”.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:40 pm 135. blacklight:

Joe the Tax Dead Beat Plumber wants to buy his boss’s company with money he doesn’t have. He can go and screw himself with a broken bottle. You too, Ruben Navarette Jr.

We have made a huge mistake redistributing and concentrating the wealth into the hands of those who don’t want to pay the taxes. We are going to take corrective action and redistribute this wealth into the hands of those who understand the need and necessity to pay the taxes that keep this country going. It’s about time that kids can have a college education without selling themselves into debtr slavery and it’s about time that families can face medical expenses without going bankrupt. As a middle class taxpayer, I couldn’t care less that your tender feelings are being trampled underfoot, Ruben Navarette Jr.

And you are arguing that those Wall Street executives whose risk taking brought us so much grief shouldn’t be taxed because they oh work so hard and oh take so many risks? What do you think I do all day as an IT security specialist, Ruben Navarette Jr? Lounge all day long sipping pina coladas? You are a right-wing, conservative Republican creep, Ruben Navarette Jr.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:41 pm 136. RJGatorEsq.:

Jay (#5) says, “Here’s the thing about Joe the Plumber: No half-rational person thinks like this guy. Nobody who is struggling to make a living worries about the added taxes they would have to pay if they became rich. Everybody is concerned about getting to the rich part first — then they can worry about the extra taxes. Getting a tax cut today goes some way to getting to the rich part. That Joe the Plumber doesn’t see this makes him truly weird.”

Wrong, Jay. Wrong, wrong as you can be.

Joe The Plumber knows full good and well that he is not going to get a tax cut under Obama. Obama had 94 opportunities to oppose higher taxes. He is 0 for 94. For him to posture as a “tax cutter” now is absurd. For you to believe it is more absurd.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:41 pm 137. Richard S:

Obama’s genuine answer that, yes, Joe would have to pay more taxes reminds me of McCain’s genuine position that he doesn’t support corn based ethanol production. These were moments of honesty in an otherwise ingenuous campaign season.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:43 pm 138. tired of belligerent and self-serving Republican leaders:

Why is it that working class Republicans somehow have been completely bamboozled into thinking that wealthy, privileged Republican politicians and their friends actually care about them???!!! That is the hoodwink job of the century!! McCain and Bush both come from exceptional privilege and have traded in it their entire lives to get where they are today. Their angry and anti-reasoning stance somehow feels right to the working class right, despite the fact that it beautifully keeps them down. How about that fine man Ken Lay of Enron — what a wonderful example of a good Republican and christian!!! Cindy McCain’s father gave her a Porsche when she graduated from college. She wrecked it, so he bought her a Mercedes. John McCain is the son and grandson of Navy admirals who was able to become a pilot and officer because of his lineage. He got into officer’s graduate school because of family connections, not because of his record — he graduated 5th from the bottom of his undergraduate class, and by his own account spent most of his time drinking/partying, etc. He wrecked three planes and would have lost his wings if he’d not been the son and grandson of notables. His wife, who is nothing but an heiress, bought the house they used to establish residency in their congressional district and supplied lots of money for his early runs for Congress. Does he have a clue what it’s like to be working class?? I come from hardworking, self-made, self-sufficient, small-town people in the rural Midwest, and I say give me a break!!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:45 pm 139. Good Lt:

>The point is that Joe the Plumber was a set-up.

Set-up by who? Cite proof. Thanks.

I’m sorry, but I don’t see Joe the Plumber’s name on the ballot.

What was Obama’s answer – you know, that guy who’s running for President on the Democrat ticket? THAT’S the point.

And he let the mask slip. He plans for more socialism. So what do the Democrats – horrified that the cat has been inadvertently let out of the bag – rush to destroy the peon who would dare ask a question of some corrupticrat politician from the famously corrupt Chicago Democrat political machine who wants to take and “spread around” more of his money.

Do you have any evidence Joe was “planted,” as Democrat activists at numerous primary debates were on national TV? Pretty bold charge – got any proof?

You don’t?

Well, then. I think I’ll call the Truth Squad to serve you with a subpoena because you made an unsupportable allegation. I’ll also be submitting you IP and any other information I can gather to private detectives, news organizations and psycho bloggers who will “vet” you as if you’re now the candidate. You want to hold an opinion that runs counter to mine? Fine. Prepare for your “vetting.”

You do realize that you’re not allowed to express an opinion anymore, do you not? This is the People’s Republik of Obamica. Dissent is no longer the highest form of patriotism.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:46 pm 140. Bod:

Wow. I guess this blog just got a Kos-a-launch

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:49 pm 141. Roger:

Lawrence, are you unable to read or what. Joe didn’t lie about his income, he said he hoped to buy a business in the future. How was this a set-up. Obama (the one) visited Joe’s neighborhood not the other way around.

You democrat’s are simply disgusting.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:51 pm 142. Vik Munikoti:

I find it appalling that anyone would refer to liberty as a mere “talking point.” Partisan leftists need to understand that when conservatives talk of liberty we hold the concept as a cherished principle.
__________________

Bullsh!t. Wiretaps and the patriot act do not constitute “liberty”. Blatant homophobia and xenophobia as seen in the McCriminal/Mooseburger rallies do not constitute “liberty”. Don’t lecture the rest of us on “liberty”. You wouldn’t know “liberty” if it bit you in the a$$.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:51 pm 143. Magnet:

Has anyone forgot that the government just but us taxpayers in dept for 700 billion dollars? Who do you think is going to pay for this debt plus billions more? Whether you make 40 thousand or 250 thousand isn’t going to make a whole lot of difference by either Obama or McCain. McCain’s party in power has screwed us. It isn’t socialst to buy up banks? We are there. Why are we even discussing Joe the Plumber or any other Joe. I am a small business owner and I would love it if big business the top 1% of this county paid there share of taxes instead of the ability to hire big lawyers to find loop holes in the tax codes so they pay less of a percentage of tax than I do. When Obama states he would like to spread the wealth, whether that be socialist or not is not the issue , the issue is the small business owner making less than $250 thousand a year can’t afford to take there money and put it into off shore accounts, questionable deductions, tax excepts questionable charities, and wall street deregulated free for all investments, that now I again end up paying for.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:51 pm 144. Dave Surls:

“They’ve insulted him, talked down to him, and even tried to destroy him.”

And, the slavish Democrat/Obama-bots are doing it here too.

They just love the struggling working man…about as much as they loved the guys who used to pick their cotton back in the good old days.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:53 pm 145. Mister Snitch!:

“It turns out Joe has no plumber’s license.

Joe isn’t in the plumbers union.

Joe never did a plumbers apprenticeship.

Joe’s business likely would not be taxed under Obama’s proposal.

Joe might even get a tax cut under Obama’s proposal.

Joe doesn’t believe in Social Security.

Joe’s first name isn’t Joe, it’s Samuel.

And Samuel hasn’t paid his taxes.”

So, therefore, Obama and his thugs have a right (and duty!) to destroy him. Got it. Under Obama, only flawed people who dare to disagree with him will come under attack.

So, who does that leave out? Flawed people who will toe the party line, I guess.

Heil Obama!

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:53 pm 146. Smart Observer:

The republicans are the only ones who are elitists. Whenever I drive through a rich neighborhood, the only political yard signs I see are McCain-Palin and local republican representatives, but no democratic signs. When I drive through the poorer working class neighborhoods, I see mainly Obama-Biden signs and signs for local democratic representatives, so don’t give me this BS about democrats and liberals being the rich elitist snobs, when the rich elitist snobs are the ones that are displaying the republican yard signs.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:54 pm 147. vivo:

24. viva:
Oct 19, 2008 – 5:53 am

Copying my name, ehhh?

Now I have my reactionary counterpart.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:55 pm 148. Mister Snitch!:

“You people are all fools. The point is that Joe the Plumber was a set-up.”

Of course. Joe’s a plant. The Republicans found a plumber with a flawed background willing to have his life Xrayed and destroyed.

Yeah. That happened.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:55 pm 149. Tony Smith:

Ruben – it wasnt worst than all of the horrible articles you wrote against Hillary Clinton. I should have known all along that you were just bashing Clinton – like so many other guys — but had no interest in supporting Obama. Magically, as soon as Clinton was eliminated, you started writing pro-Republican articles. You seem like Dick Morris.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:56 pm 150. Observer:

Under the republican tax plan wealth is spread to the very wealthy. Adam Smith noted that it took 500 workers to support one rich person. Under the republicans it now takes many more workers to support that rich person and the middle class has disappeared. All Obama said was that it’s time to reward the workers by either taxing the rich fairly (as they were before the Bush tax giveaway) or paying our workers better so that everyone gets the benefit of the business success they help to create. (Note, in Japan a manager can earn no more than five times the highest worker’s salary without facing embarrassment. Here it can be thousands of times that for a CEO that makes poor decisions.) The obscene concentration of wealth in corporations like Exxon and their management and CEO’s should be spread around so that workers are fairly compensated for their work and that managers are realistically compensated as well, but not allowed to rip off the shareholders as occurs now. That’s what will hopefully happen with however wins this election. If it doesn’t we in the middle class are in real trouble. Obama realizes this.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:57 pm 151. vivo:

28. KJB:

“vivo: Please tell me: why would Joe have asked that question to McCain or Palin?”

Why not? McCain fuzzy math and slogans are are messy as they can be.

Oct 19, 2008 - 3:59 pm 152. M. Baker:

Your argument does not hold water. John McCain is solely responsible for Joe’s current misery. To thrust someone into the spotlight without asking permission and without vetting him to make sure he will withstand the inevitable scrutiny was self-serving at best, and decidedly cruel.

When one campaigner introduces an example to illustrate his or her point, the other side (and the media) has every right, and a responsibility, to investigate that example for validity. It’s the only way the electorate can be protected from being duped into voting for someone they don’t really know.

I feel sorry for Joe the plumber being victimized by John McCain. But until Joe pays his taxes in full, like I do, that’s where my sympathy stops. It turns out that I’m the one paying for the roads Joe is driving to and from his unlicensed plumbing work every day, and that makes me pretty angry.

Personally, I have no respect for tax dodges. And neither should John McCain. Who does he think is going to pay for his welfare-for-the-rich programs?

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:01 pm 153. tim stevens:

i’m not ready to say the modern democrat party is a manifestation of evil, but when it advocates the theft of property and belongings from a minority in order to curry favor with a majority, when it actively tries to undermine the security of this country for political gain, when it advocates and implements policies which later become disastrous all the while blaming their opponents for the folly, when it tries to destroy the reputation of people who dare ask questions of their leaders, and when it pits young versus old, healthy versus terminal, hardworking versus lazy and thrifty versus greedy, I have to believe it is very very close to it.

there an interesting etymology for “democrat” as pertains to the united states democrat party. it’s not universally agreed upon, but here it is:

“… the term “democrat” originated as an epithet and referred to ‘one who panders to the crude and mindless whims of the masses.’”

i think the modern democrats have gone far beyond that slur.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:05 pm 154. David in Dallas:

One of the biggest tragedies in the USA is that we have permitted the morphing of the meanings of “liberal” and “socialist” into those of common 4-letter words. Our ME-FIRST!-culture quickly forgets that we are a civilization, a community.

As such, I like to believe that we all contribute someway to the wellbeing of our fellow men. I’d like to believe that at one time both the Democrats and the Republicans had the general welfare of all citizens in mind – - with different approaches to achieve that goal. Today, sadly, the majority of the Republicans have lost that attribute, and there are a few on my left-of-center side of the political spectrum that have forgotten, too.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:05 pm 155. jim Rhoads aka vnjagvet:

The problem is the attacks on the guy who asked the question. So what if McCain used him to make a point? How does that justify the attacks on Joe. Attack McCain and Palin if you want. If they’re wrong, they deserve attack. But the evidence does not suggest that Joe was a plant. Unless he was, none of the BHO apologists here have a leg to stand on, whether they came from the Obama campaign or not.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:08 pm 156. MZC:

Navarette, your argument is overly simplistic and you know it (and if your don’t, you really shouldn’t be a journalist).

It’s easy to take a phrase like “spread the wealth” and twist it into something that sounds like socialism. How very lazy and fear-mongering of you.

“Spread the wealth” can also mean making our rates of taxation MORE fair. This is how Obama meant it — look at his actual tax plan for proof.

The reason why “Joe the Plumber” has been so widely debunked is because he is a fake symbol, not the person he claimed to be, and therefore not representative of an argument against Obama’s policies.

If you want to argue in favor of trickle-down economics, fine, just say it – but don’t do it in the name of Joe.

C’mon Navarette – do your readers a service and try a little harder to raise the journalistic bar here.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:10 pm 157. Vahan:

haha! what a republican article this is. What a piece of work. You people (yes, I said you people) really stick to the idea that poor people are poor because they’re lazy and they just don’t work hard enough to be rich, and rich people are rich because they have worked hard?! ha! this is why our country’s going no where, fast. And omg I just criticized my country. I guess that means I don’t love the US as much Sarah Palin does. But then again I’m also not a member of the NRA which means I can’t shoot a moose from a helicopter and claim to have cleaned up the government in a state where nobody lives.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:11 pm 158. don:

I may vote for Obama. He wants females to register for the draft. Besides habeas corpus for prisoners of war and midnight basketball, Title Nine should apply to national security and war. Warfare requires equality before the law.
Only males are required to register for the draft currently. If they fail to register, males suffer criminal sanctions and civil penalties; wedge issues, males pay fines, go to jail, and loose educational benefits and driving privileges.
Currently males are 90 percent of the armed forces. Males are grossly over-represented in the Army and Marines. With Title Nine the law an ameliorative draft of females to accurately represent their 50 percent of the American population follows. The American military should reflect its society, and females are now 50 percent of the nation’s law school graduating classes and even exceed males at U.C. Berkeley.
The casualty ratio of males to females killed in action in the military is 40 to 1. This is unacceptable. Male and female soldiers should expect and enjoy equal dying for equal pay. Harvard’s tenured feminists will object to this corrective gender discrimination as reverse sexism, but warfare equality is unfair.
Feminists will object that females are at a disadvantage to males in combat too; but there is always someone smaller and sneakier who can kill you. Fear of warfare equality is just their tenure-track excuse for lucrative gender roles at the male’s expense. Segregated infantry units should assuage those misplaced feminine privacy issues and allow generals to adjust casualties by gender to achieve the war’s egalitarian goals, liberating the Moslem female for the Vagina Monologues. You go girls.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:11 pm 159. Mike_K:

“Aisling:
Providing for equitable taxation does not equate to opposition to the working class.”

Straw man argument. The point is that a guy has ambition to buy a truck, add a couple of more plumbers and maybe make $250k in a few years. If you actually listen to what he said, you would know that. There are millions of people waiting for visas to come here for just such an impractical dream.

” I’m amazed and amused that so many people who do not now nor ever will make $250,000 a year in personal income are up in arms about raising taxes on those who do.”

I know you are. They should keep their places in the untermenschen and shut up.

” Everyone who makes less than that amount will see a savings in their taxes.”

Just like the Clinton middle class tax cut, eh ?

” We’ve had 8 years of “trickle down economics” that have culminated in near catastrophe and a bailout for Wall Street. Yet conservatives still whine about social programs for those in need while corporate welfare consumes the nation’s wealth.”

Actually, those “social programs” like CRA and Fannie Mae are the problem and Franklin Raines is laughing at you as he invests his $100 million bonuses. Chris Dodd who blocked McCain’s attempt to rein in corporate welfare by threatening a filibuster in 2005, is not chairing the hearing on what went wrong. Chumps like you are ready to vote for these crooks again.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:12 pm 160. Jed:

HAs the Democratic party and the current press corps awakened an Army of Joes who are tired of this crap? I think so and hope that it will continue until the entrenched politicos who c

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:13 pm 161. PhillyPaul:

My “Townhall.com” reading conservative buddy is forever trying to convince me that Barack was, at heart, “a Socialist”. I thought I was smarter and skeptical. Then I heard Barack tell “Joe the Plumber” that his goal was to “spread the wealth around”. Um, how can I now be skeptical when I heard the pure socialist thought straight from the candidates mouth? I am voting McCain 2008, then Hillary 2012.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:15 pm 162. Jed:

Has the Democratic party and current press corps awakened an Army of Joes? I think so and hope that this army will do something about our entrenched politicos who are supposed to represent the average Joe.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:16 pm 163. John:

Joe the Plumber was Sam the tax evading, plumbing, cowboy. A phony from start to finish. What happened was he got press scrutiny as was inevitable the mystery is why does McCain tie his fate to these jokes. Navarette’s crocodile tears ill become someone who was cheering on the Schiavo atrocity. Basically it’s the Republicans who turn every election into a circus of trivialities then they start whining when one comes back and bites them. Today another adult, Colin Powell, joined Obama and tried to call a halt to these inanities. Now Powell is being excoriated by far right people everywhere as turncoat, affirmative action ingrate, incompetent, black power sympathizer, it’s disgusting but I’m sure Mr Navarette will soon join the chorus.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:18 pm 164. David:

Seems to me the Republican Party practices ’spreading the wealth around’ except it is to the most wealth among us. Indeed, they just spread it around to Banks, Investment Banks, Insurance Companies etc. to the tune of 700 Billion or more. I think the Republican party is much more of a ’socialist’ party than any other.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:19 pm 165. TalkinKamel:

Joe was standing on his front lawn, playing football. Obama chose to talk to him.

And, even if he was a plant (which I don’t think he was) how could he have forced Obama to say what he did? Mind control powers? Nanobots? The Shadow’s ability to cloud mens’ minds?

This is about Obama. It has nothing to do with Joe, and, really, nothing to do with Republicans, either. It’s about what Obama said, and what he intends for our country.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:19 pm 166. Rod:

It is quite true that the Democrat party and Republican party stances have reversed since I was young, that is, when Jack Kennedy was president. These days the blue states are relatively wealthy and the red relatively poorer.

Can it be that the wealthier are spoiled and out of touch with hard work, while farmers and others who labor harder are more in touch? Joe the Plumber works with his hands. He instinctive knows that it is wrong for government to take his hard earned money and give it to someone else.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:20 pm 167. White Southerner for Barack:

1. Joe was made famous by the media and McCain, not Barack

2. Joe lied about most everything (not a plumber, is nowhere near buying a business, and neither he – nor the business – make anywhere near $250,000 in taxable income)

‘Nough said.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:21 pm 168. Anthony:

Lawrence. I’m right there with you. I own a small business myself. We’re not exactly at the $250k profit mark yet, but we hope to be there. I’m excited in Obama’s economic policies and overall vision for a stronger and more prosperous America. I believe his tax policies will help to strengthen the middle class and provide for support for innovation in industry. It’s vary short-sighted to think of a tax over a $200k or $250k threshold as a way to hold small businesses back. The marginal increase in tax over the current Bush tax plan isn’t enough to hurt the large majority of small business owners. And I gladly look forward to pitching in for a greater society once I’ve passed several income thresholds. I want to help for a brighter tomorrow. I’m happy that my success can lead to greater opportunity for the many.

Honestly, I’m quite tired of Republican rhetoric talking down to the middle class while they steal all our money. Remember that wealth never disappears, it only transfers hands. So, while the Market crashed and the current Republican administration handed over a trillion of our tax dollars to Wall Street, I ask you who paid the price? Americans like me and you. More than a trillion dollars was lost in one week of stock market activity (mostly at the cost of the middle class 401ks), over three trillion lost from the decline in the market over the past year (those 401ks again), and then another million from the bailout. Where did all that money go? Remember, it doesn’t just disappear. It was transfered to the richest class in our society at the expense of the middle class.

I’m just glad that Bush didn’t get his dream of privatizing social security, or things would be even more mucked up than they are now.

And if you want to attack me, please save your barbs. I’ve heard all your pre-approved sound bites and attack jargon. You’re not going to change my mind. It’s been set since I saw my home state of Michigan begin to slide into an abyss during the Reagan years and further forgotten during the Bush years. I saw hard working men and women looked over while government championed financiers and lopsided world trade agreements. I saw in a microcosm of Michigan what the Right Center through Far Right wing of politics thought of America. I’m tired of you all destroying the country. I look forward to a new day for America.

God Bless.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:21 pm 169. Joe:

Just about everything we were told about “Joe the Plumber” has turned out to be bogus. A blue-collar phony is still a phony.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:22 pm 170. Kevin:

Nothing happened to the demo party. This line of attack against the democrats is absurd. The media is vetting this guy because John McCain decided to make him the focus of his campaign. Once the facts didn’t match the point McCain was making, the McCain campaign accused Obama of attacking the plumber. McCain’s campaign has gone from shameful to pathetic. Phil Graham (a former key McCain adviser) and many others, have tried to introduce Laissez Fair to a (large) corporate culture. If you were to read john Smith’s Wealth of Nations, you would discover he didn’t advocate Laissez Fair for a corporate culture. It is time for a change and, as a small business owner who is now suffering in this slow economy, I and many others like me–will be voting for Obama no matter how many times McCain tries to change the subject.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:24 pm 171. Gozer the Carpathian:

Seriously all you anti-Joe guys attack this guy and ignore what Obama said? How about the whole 95% of small buisnesses make less than $250K? Does anyone even blink at that idea? As far as I’ve heard he’s talking Gross Income of a buisness. Just counting costs you can see how easily it is to get over the $250K income line. Here’s some simple math:

5 Employees costing the employer $50K a year. Six people in your buisness that’s nice and small right? Of course everyone here knows that the cost to the buisness owner may be $50K a year but that’s probably not what the employee gets. (Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m thinking about $45K a year in a job with ZERO benefits?)

Still ONLY 5 employees at $50K a year will knock you over the $250K mark. Since you obviously have to pay these guys means you’re at least bringing in that much. That’s not even counting the costs of overhead and supplies. (Which again may not all come out of income right away but better come out soon or your buisness is going under soon enough.)

Hell, 10 employees at $30K a year, that could be a small Denny’s like diner still puts you well over the $250K line.

Basically when the Federal government allows a buisness to make anywhere from $750K to $32.4 MILLION a year and still be considered a small buisness. Makes you wonder who is really getting this tax hike. Here’s a hint, it’s the people who create the jobs!

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:24 pm 172. Don:

Democrats are dissing Joe because he’s a fraud. He doesn’t make $250,000 a year. He isn’t a plumber. He has no plans to buy his boss’s business. The business doesn’t make over $100,000 a year. Joe would benefit from Obama’s tax plan. When Obama talks about “spreading the wealth,” he doesn’t mean take from Joe and give to someone else; he means it’s time the working class got their fair share of tax cuts instead of giving all the tax cuts to the wealthy. But that won’t stop Joe from voting against himself. Joe is simply a smart aleck who thought he could corner and embarrass a presidential candidate, but found himself cornered and embarrassed when his lies caught up with him. Joe deserves no sympathy from the rest of us.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:25 pm 173. USAF Captain:

Lawrence writes:

“I AM a small business owner – started it in our apartment and now it makes more than $250,000 a year in profits. There are so many legal tax breaks for small business – I can invest up to $45,000 in an individual 401K, I can invest up to $250,000 this year in equipment and write it all off (Section 179 deduction), I get to write off my medical insurance, I get to write-off a portion of my auto and my home office expense, etc. I can probably make about $400K income before I even reach the $250,000 threshold.”

..and when the Obama/Reid/Pelosi tax plan comes down and you and the tens of thousands of other business owners like you have to pay more in taxes for the same endeavor to an unproductive, wasteful federal bureaucracy that makes nothing and creates nothing, instead of investing the extra money in the economy, then that economy would?

..anyone..anyone..Beuller..Beuller..expand..contract?

Have a blast running your psuedo-business, you fake. You also might want ask Obaama’s campaign to “spread the wealth around a little” to you trolls for posting this drivel. I hear they’ve pulled in 150 millions this past month.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:26 pm 174. Paul Doupe:

In my view Senator McCain and his handlers have caused all the negative attention to brought upon Mr Wurzelbacher not Senator Obama or the Democratic party. Prior to last Wednesday night’s debate and Senator McCain evoking “Joe the Plumber’ there was as far as I am aware little media interest in Mr Wurzelbacher or his encounter with Senator Obama. It was only after the Republica’s and Senator McCain choose to draw attention to Mr Wurzelbacher during the course of the debate, and made Mr Wurzelbacher into some sort of minor celebrity that the media started doing their job which is to investigate a story.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:29 pm 175. idjiut:

If the Mainstream Media, aka Ultra-Liberal Propaganda Machine, spent 1/10th of the effort ‘vetting’ such in-dignitaries as Nadmi Auchi, Antoin ‘Tony’ Rezko, Franklin Delano Raines, Martin ‘Tax Lien’ Nesbitt, ACORN, etc, as recently spent demonizing Joe ‘The Plumber’, NO ONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD EVER VOTE FOR BARAK OBAMA. It seems that The Anointed One randomly selected a guy from the crowd at a rally (an obvious Republican plant) and asked him if he had any questions. Since then, Joe ‘The Plumber’ has been microscopically examined by every Tom, Dick and Harriet that has ever had any aspiration to become a ‘journalist’. What a bunch of hypocrites. The messenger has been shot, but the message is alive and well: Obama is a Marxist, intent on the redistribution of America’s wealth. He said so himself, live, on camera. The same group of ‘journalists’ had just returned from Alaska where they bull-dozed every square inch of Seward’s Folly looking for even the most minutia of slime to tar Sarah Palin with. The viciousness and hatefulness of these Left Wing zealots is nothing less than atrocious and the main stream talking heads can’t wait to get their hands on anything that will make any conservative look evil. What hath God wrought? Poor ol’ Joe ‘The Plumber’ questions the rationality of a tax increase and the next day he is deluged with so-called reporters camped out in front of his house. Has anyone ever even seen Antoin ‘Tony’ Rezko’s picture on CBS, ABC or NBC? No. Why? Because he is a dark-skinned Syrian born Chicago slumlord criminal, whose wife recently purchased the adjoining property of Obama’s $1.6 million mansion, on the same day as the Obama purchase. Has anyone ever heard of Nadhmi Auchi? Does anyone know that he is an Iraqi National Baathist Party BILLIONAIRE CRIMINAL now living in London, who ‘loaned’ Tony Rezko $3.5 million 3 weeks prior to his wife’s purchase of the $625,000 adjoining lot to the Obama property? Not many. Does anyone also know that Nadhmi Auchi owns a large stake in the Chicago South Loop Roosevelt Street Redevelopment Project worth $170 million? Probably not, but everybody and their brother now knows that poor ol’ Joe The Plumber has a tax lean on his property. Well FYI, so does Martin Nesbitt, Obama’s Campaign Treasurer (and former Chairman of the Chicago Housing Authority). Yep. The mainstream media is biased against white people. Furthermore, the hypocrites have no room for shame, because they are full of guile. Take for instance the recent endorsement of The One by Gen. Powell. When Powell was Secretary of State under the Bush Administration, he was ridiculed and pilloried as an ‘Uncle Tom’, a Bush puppet, liar, etc, but let him endorse Caesar Barakus Obamus and all is forgiven and he has now fallen into the good graces of the Network Propaganda Newspeak Wonks. When all is said and done and after the parading of the New Left Black Poster Child on all the Networks, it should become apparent to even the most naive political observer that the Obama Campaign desperately need a highly respected ‘conservative’ member of the black community to go on record for Obama. Cynical? Hardly. However, I can’t fault Gen Powell for jockeying for a position within the Obama Administration. He has learned enough about politics to know that one must necessarily grovel before the feet of the Anointed One before applying for a job. I admit my disappointment in Gen Powell, who has served his Country with much dignity and honor.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:30 pm 176. DotConnector:

Doesn’t this whole thing remind you of the story of the ‘emporer who had no clothes?’

Obama has issues. He is a leftist to the point of being a true socialist. His lackies know it, but none – including the MSM – will say it. In fact they ignore his problems and pretend they don’t exist.

Then Joe, like the little boy minding his own business until the parade went by, had the temerity to bring it out by asking only a simple question.

See the story at : http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm and decide who are the scoundrels, who are the ministers, and who are the deluded public.

And ask why an average unlicensed plumber was able to ask and draw out the truth that all of the ‘professional’ media types seemed unable to get at.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:33 pm 177. GEEVILL:

Joe the plumber a true American who would literally rather wallow in sewage to earn his living than accept money that Obama stole from someone else even Bill Gates.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:37 pm 178. Teacher123:

Lawrence,
You’ve hit the nail right on the head. I am a teacher in NYC making about 60,000 a year. Looking at the Obama and McCain tax plans — I would gain more under Obama’s tax plan. I don’t want a hand out, but I do provide a service to America’s children, I don’t cheat them out of their money I don’t have 11 houses, I don’t take 450,000 vacations while my company goes under. My grandchildren, and great grand children will also not have nest eggs due to the money raked in via the Iraq war through Halliburton and Blackwell, WELL DONE BUSH AND CHENEY. Joe the Plumber has stated that he will not vote for Obama because he is black. What a perfect democracy we have, and we trying to shove it down the throat of other cultures around the world

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:37 pm 179. Larry Ross:

The Iraq and Afghanistan wars cost about $1 billion dollars/week. Who is going to support these wars if we don’t pay taxes?
Larry

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:39 pm 180. Nostradamus:

According to http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ The Inflation Calculator, an “item” bought for $75,000 in 1977 would cost $270,771.04 today. Rate of inflation change: 261%. “Joe The Plumber” will eventually exceed the $250,000 income mark set by Obama. ALL Of YOU WIll too, someday, if you live long enough. So Obama is supporting the eventual maxing out of taxes for practically every worker eventually. Another candidate wants to not raise taxes on anyone. Vote accordingly.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:40 pm 181. Ge0ffrey:

Have you seen the latest polls out of Ohio? McCain is suddenly up 1 point. Wonder if Joe has something to do with it.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:43 pm 182. Mike:

This kind of character assassination is nothing new to the Democrats.

Here’s a name from the past: Donato Dalrymple. Remember him? He was the Cuban-American guy out fishing off the coast of Florida who found Elian Gonzalez, rescued him and resisted his return to Cuba. They gave him a very similar mudbath for being a common man who dared to speak out against Clinton Administration policy and behavior.

One purpose is the obvious one- to discredit the speaker and make it difficult for others to use him as a positive example or associate themselves with his position. The second purpose is more nefarious- to discourage people from asking such questions in the future. The next Joe the Plumber, Bill the Electrician, or Tony the Carpenter to ask a Democrat a potentially embarrassing question is going to remember this, remember how Joe was portrayed by the leftist media, wonder if he owes any back taxes, wonder if the mudbath is going to be extended to his employer or family too, and might just opt to keep his uneducated peasant mouth shut.

My prediction: Barack Hussein Obama is going to lose big, by 50-100 EV. The Left will claim, as usual, the election was rigged and black voters were kept away from the polls. Obama will start dating again. And poor Joe the Plumber will be the subject of yearly tax audits. His employer will face a spate of complaints and lose a few contracts. They’ll fire Joe, and he will never get to buy his company. His kid might run into a few problems in school. That’s the way it’s done- no act of disrespect towards the Democrat Party goes unpunished. I’d likely get my tires slashed for writing this post, if my local left-wing extremists knew who I was.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:43 pm 183. Antman:

I guess the point here is that Joe isn’t what McCain presented him to be during the debate. It would be great if Joe was in striking distance of earning 250k (I sure wish I was), however he isn’t. I just think that if you’re going to hold someone up as an example of small business initiative, it should be someone who’s really done it. I don’t believe that people who take the risk and start their own business should be penalized for doing so, but there must be better examples than this guy! Come on, the McCain campaign is screwing up big time!

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:44 pm 184. Celine:

What Obama camp is doing to Joe the Plumber is repulsive. The guy just asked a simple question. Where is democracy? The left is starting to scare me.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:45 pm 185. Marnie:

All the media have done is point out that “Joe” the Plumber is a phoney.
Of course the rest of us realize, and the press has let slide that “Joe” was a set up. Why else would an ordinary Joe who just happens to pass a few words with a candidate end up as the major talking point of that candidate’s opponent for an entire debate – supplanting “Joe” Six Pack, the alcoholic bum.

“Joe” who isn’t Joe and isn’t even a licensed plumber. But “Joe” is the McCain/Palin everyman so their plant had to be “Joe.”
Funny how quickly he got invited to Faux News, ain’t it?

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:49 pm 186. Phil:

Ruben,

You don’t get it.
Joe has a much better chance to get to $250,000 per year under Obama than he has had for the last 8 years or would under a McCain presidency.
And it wasn’t a boo boo, either.
If 95% of the electorate make less than $250,000, they’re not going to the polls to defend the %5 who do.
Finally, your comment that middle class people “often” make some “not so good” decisions is condescending at best. A lot of solid middle class people make perfectly solid decisions, but they opt for less lucrative jobs like teaching etc. They aren’t looking for a handout. Obama’s plan merely acknowledges that the system we’ve had in place for he last 20 years hasn’t always woked out like the middle class American dream they sought.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:50 pm 187. Jeff Kast:

Reuben when did you become a tool of the repubs. Joe was a set up. He isn’t a plumber, he isn’t bying his company, he owes back taxes and he lied when he said Obama would raise his taxes. But there you are carrying the water for McPalin. You made more sense when you were a reporter at the Fresno Bee and really understood the working folks. One more thing, I think after 2000 and 2004 we democrats are damm happy to see our candidate fighting back against the slimy republican tactics. Jeff

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:52 pm 188. bobby b:

“And to all of you that think that the Republicans are the party for the little guy, name me one thing that they did for the little guy during Reagan’s 8 years or Bush’s 8 years. ”
– - -

They got out of my way. The stopped taking a huge chunk of my pay for taxes (used to pay for all sorts of worthless, ill-begotten, poorly-thought-out programs that really just ended up transferring my money into the hands of the Democrat donors, the rad enviros, the union heads, the Rezkos – with no discernable help for the people for whom they claim concern), allowing me to pay for night law school and then open my own small office for a few years until I got in with a bigger firm and a decent income.

Just Like Joe says he wants to do.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:53 pm 189. MrEthiopian:

Your just like all the rest of the republican nutbags, when people either don’t agree with you or have an a opinion different that yours, your argument is always to blankly blame either the democrats or the liberals, not individuals or individuals media outlets. To blame all the Democrats for the independent media doing their jobs of finding the facts and reporting them delusional. Than you need to bring up Mr. Aryes relationship with Mr Obama this has been fully vetted by media and by Obama repeatedly, you need to find some new material, kuz you betting a smelly dead horse.

Republicans have grown stupider over the last 8 years, if thats possible. You think the media is all out to get you, yet I did not hear you complaining when Bush stole the election in 2004 and the media said nothing, I could have said the same in 2004, the media is biased and only works for Repubz. This excludes FOX news, we all know its a propaganda mouth piece for the republicans.

Get use to it, the republicans are going to loose (Thank God) and we are never going to let you back in because you have all but ruined this great country in 8 short years.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:57 pm 190. Mike S:

Joe the Plumber makes $40,000 per year. As such he will pay more taxes under the McCain plan than under Obama. The extra money Joe pays would be used by McCain to pay for tax cuts for multi-millionaires.

If working-class Joe wants to pay higher taxes so McCain can cut taxes for the rich, that is his right. I suspect most working class Americans will favor the Obama plan.

Oct 19, 2008 - 4:57 pm 191. thomas:

c’mon folks. under clinton, the economy expanded by leaps and bounds. the middle class, through consumer spending, is the biggest economic driver and profit margins exceeded tax burdens. some people just don’t like the idea of paying taxes. give bho a few years before you make up your mind. he means well.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:00 pm 192. James:

“Biden brought up real life people in the Vice Presidential debate. Did the McCain campaign try to dig up dirt on those people?”

A better question would be, did the impartial and objective media dig up dirt on them? And since the answer is “hell no”, why are they doing it now?

Because they are more rabidly partisan Democrats than the average Democrat politician.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:01 pm 193. William:

Anyone commenting on Obama’s response to Joe the Plumber really should watch the entire response: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1a4_1224166209

Obama is respectful, carefully explains his plan, lets Joe ask a follow-up after he’s explained, then responds to the follow-up. Obama took his time and treated Joe with respect.

The “spread the wealth around” bit was 1 second in 5-minute answer. Context, fairness. Learn these concepts, please. Soundbites kill thought.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:01 pm 194. MarkJ:

Smart Observer,

The republicans are the only ones who are elitists. Whenever I drive through a rich neighborhood, the only political yard signs I see are McCain-Palin and local republican representatives, but no democratic signs. When I drive through the poorer working class neighborhoods, I see mainly Obama-Biden signs and signs for local democratic representatives, so don’t give me this BS about democrats and liberals being the rich elitist snobs, when the rich elitist snobs are the ones that are displaying the republican yard signs.

Well, you’ve established two things with your post. You are neither “smart” nor are you an “observer.”

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:03 pm 195. Frank:

It is so heartwarming to hear a right-winger like Ruben Navarrette express such tender concern for the conscience of the Democratic Party.

Progressives have always had to fight the ignorance and prejudice of precisely the same people whose interests they sought to advance. Joe the Faux-Plumber is no exception. He has been sold a bill of goods by people precisely like Navarrette, advocates of the trickle-down economics that have failed to out-perform plain old liberalism for the last six decades,m especially when it comes to the interests of the working class.

As a “plumber”, Joe should know better. Anything that “trickles down” to people like him from the wealthy and powerful should just remind him that he is working in a urinal.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:03 pm 196. Jim Baker:

Obama is a Socialist. The Socialists smell blood. The country is angry about the government trashing of the economy and the uninformed, who can’t read that word anyway, assume it is the fault of the President and his party. The Dems will attempt to pile on wherever they can because they think they smell victory. I will never vote for a Socialist and neither will Joe. That is why Joe asked his question. Joe, Socialists offend me too. If Obama walks my neighborhood, I will try to make him show his real point of view too. He does not offend all these paid Obama bloggers that hit these stories because they are collectivists too.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:04 pm 197. James:

Teacher123

“I don’t want a hand out, but I do provide a service to America’s children”

I don’t think that brainwashing them with your fascist ideology counts as a “service”, at least not one which we the taxpayers should have to pay for.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:05 pm 198. bc:

Remember that scene in “A Few Good Men”, when Tom Cruise says, “He wants to tell the truth. He’s dying to explain his side” or something to that effect, right before he goads Jack Nicholson to explode on the stand with, “The truth! You can’t handle the truth!” He then proceeds to commit verbal suicide by telling the truth as he sees it. That’s what just happened to Obama. Then the prosecutor realizes his case is shot, and that Nicholson’s character is screwed. He yells, “The prisoner has rights”. I’m waiting for that part here.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:05 pm 199. AnonymousPatriot:

Mike:

Well put.

The only reason I don’t have a McCain/Palin sticker on my work truck is because I don’t want it vandalized by the intolerant Obamabots when I park it at a jobsite.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:09 pm 200. Youngblood:

“The problem with Joe is that he is an obvious RNC plant just like all of the brainless wonders that they trot out to McCain to ask the most stupid of questions that have nothing to do with the situation in the United States.”

So, let me get this straight… The Republicans planted Joe the Plumber in that particular Ohio neighborhood at some point in the past in the hopes that Senator Obama might try a door-to-door campaign stunt in that particular neighborhood, and then stumble across this plant playing football in the yard with his children, and then flub the answer to the question that this plant asked.

You’re genuinely delusional if you believe that.

“Joe is getting what he deserves as he has been less than truthful about his own status. A plumber making 250K is not believable and a guy who hasn’t even been through the apprentice program is now going to buy his own plumbing contracting company? It not even close to being believable.”

This is perfectly believable. A business doesn’t have to be very large before it takes in $250,000 a year, and there are plenty of plumbers and other contractors who are bringing in that kind of money. If you can’t believe this, it’s not a reflection on how things are with the real world, but that you’ve been spending too much time online around bloggers who know nothing about the real world.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:10 pm 201. Mike G:

Oh, you mean “Joe the Racist”? Let’s see he said Obama was tap dancing like Sammy Davis Jr. Yeah it’s the democrats that are all wrong. Please McCain and Palin have been inciting hate everywhere they go.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:11 pm 202. Maine Guy:

Let’s focus on the real issue here — it isn’t whether Joe is a deadbeat. He is. The issue you raise is about “spreading the wealth around”. Do you mean like when Ronald Reagan cut taxes for the wealthy, ran up the deficit, and the rest of us had to pay it off under Clinton? That’s spreading the wealth from bottom to the top of the ladder. Now “W” and the R Congress have rung up another huge budget deficit and left us holding the bag. Never again! Obama has it right. The folks that benefited from the Bush tax cut should have to pay the bill. Not the middle class. We’re mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:17 pm 203. Tom Millar:

Why are you all drinking the cool aid? This article is horse manure. Why do you think the author failed to include even one single example of Obama take a pot shot at Joe the Plumber? Wouldn’t a quote have been an effective piece of evidence for him to make his point? Yeah, it would have been, but they don’t exist.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:18 pm 204. Ed Wallis:

“Dot Connector” #175 –

*F*A*B*U*L*O*U*S* !

The Obameror wears no clothes!!! [END OF FABLE, g'nite children...!]

You made a beautiful end to my weekend. Thanks!

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:18 pm 205. CS:

May I suggest that people here focus a little less on self-congratulatory outrage and maybe spend a little more time actually studying American economic history? The idea of the progressive tax is enshrined in the writing of Adam Smith–yes, the godfather of capitalism. Here’s what he says: “It is not very unreasonable that the rich should contribute to the public expense, not only in proportion to their revenue, but something more than in that proportion.”

If a progressive tax equals class warfare and socialism, then every president and every congressman elected since 1913 is a hateful socialist. If you don’t believe that ridiculous statement, then this whole Joe the Plumber argument is a bunch of nonsense. Make your choice and at least have enough guts to say which you really believe.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:19 pm 206. JD:

It’s funny how the republican base will swallow anything that’s fed to them. First, the vapid numb-skull, Palin, was branded, spun, and pitched as the “common man’s” VP (an insult to the common man). Now they’ve spun a vocal moron as a Real American Hero and the republican base have swallowed him hook, line, and sinker. Is it a matter of pride that they won’t admit when they’re wrong or that they’ve been bamboozled? Perhaps after voting for W. (Capt. Idiot Man-child) twice now, the shred of pride left after those foolish moves causes them to cling to any pig with lipstick because they are merely being defensive over the criticism. I shouldn’t insult as this is usually a republican/fascist tactic: keep voters polarized…but I can’t help it. Please wake up, republicans! Let go of this foolish pride because it is getting in the way of your critical decision-making capabilities and it has gotten in the way of moving this country, and world, forward. Your own party has given you the most poorly chosen poster children in history and you blindly defend them. It’s O.K. to let go and admit you are wrong. It’s the honorable thing to do.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:20 pm 207. Tom:

I got news for you. Unless you’re in favor of no taxes, all income taxes (even the beloved flat tax) spreads wealth around. So by this definition, Reagan was a socialist as well?

C’mon guys. You’re overplaying your hand. Yes, Obama should not have given a quote like “spread wealth around” (almost as bad as “the fundementals of the economy are strong”). But the reality is Joe W. will be getting an Obama tax cut (he’s welcome to give it back if he doesn’t want it) and if he does end up making $250K a year, he can afford to pay the same taxes that he did before George W when we had a balanced budget.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:21 pm 208. Eddie:

I thought Obama wanted to raise the taxes 3% on the amount exceeding 250.000. Is this what all the fuss is about? I think Joe should rather be concerned with his current situation than with the little extra taxes he MAY be paying IF he gets to buy the company. There are to many “if” in that sentence! By the way, it’s more likely he will afford this sooner with a tax cut, so his whining about a potential raise in the future is ridiculous.

Come on, somebody must have paid him, or there’s something wrong with the guy. Maybe he lost a bet?

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:21 pm 209. AnonymousPatriot:

Mike G:

So it would have been acceptable if Joe-the-Plumber said Fred Astaire instead of Sammy Davis, Jr?

The hate is, was, and will always be coming from the intolerant Left.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:24 pm 210. wordsmithy:

Threats and intimidation tactics by the media and Democratic Party should be dealt with as per our Constitution with hard hitting protest. Americans will not give up their rights! Joe the Plumbers everywhere must stand up to this threat to our 1st Amendment rights. Boycott the major advertisers of the media…Coke, Pepsi, Kelloggs. We want Barack Obama vetted like Joe the Plumber.

Stand up, stand up, stand up America!

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:25 pm 211. midwesterner:

you are an idiot, and so are your fanboy readers. it was your bumbling erratic hero john mccain who hung joe (whose name is sam) the plumber (who is not a plumber) out to dry. if you think that his name and profession should not be subject to challenge, then tell yer boy mccain not to call him by his false name and fake profession.

as for your pathetic plea that the press investigate the obama/ayers relationship, you should climb out of that hole in the ground you have been hiding in: they have been doing nothing but for the better part of a year. it is surely a disappointment to you and your clueless pals to know that there is nothing to the story; i’m sure you are weeping crocodile tears that not only was that bastion of republicanism, the chicago tribune, unable to uncover anything more to the story, they went on to endorse obama, the first time EVER that the trib has endorsed a democratic presidential candidate.

don’t waste your time feeling sorry for (not) joe (not) the plumber, feel sorry for the toothless republican party with such pathetic, incompetent, bumbling morons at its head: george w. bush, dick cheney, john mccain, and sarah palin, truly a pantheon of dipshits!

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:28 pm 212. TmjUtah:

Hey, if anybody was paying attention we wouldn’t be choosing between a communist and an old senator of no particular party, now would we.

O! is an empty suit. He might be an unmitigated disaster as a president should he win (by NO means a given), make no mistake about it, but it will be more because his handlers get greedy than any unique capacity he will have brought to the office.

Smartest thing the Republicans should be doing between now and 2010 is making sure their state primaries are CLOSED – party only – so that the Democrats don’t get to pick their opponent again.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:30 pm 213. Don:

Gee…”Smart Observer” sees McCain signs in rich neighborhoods and Obama signs in poor neighborhoods. I LIVE in a “rich” (read: upper middle class) neighborhood and see NO McCain signs, because folks know that they are liable to be vandalized by the oh-so-tolerant and enlightened Left if they dare to deviate from the cult of Obama. Smart Observer and his ilk sit up nights worrying about the Patriot Act, but the last time I looked every assault against my freedom of assembly and expression has come from the Left. Are campus speech codes a conservative invention? How about mandatory “cultural sensitivity training” or racial quotas? How about the current drive to prevent workers from using a secret ballot to choose — or not choose — a union? Does that come from the Republicans or the Democrats, who are in the hip pockets of the union bosses? How about Pelosi and Reid’s drive to shut down the only remaining non-left broadcast medium: talk radio? How about the current drive to bury the man who dared to ask the Obama Messiah a question that elicited an inadvertently honest answer that might cause a few people to think twice about voting for The One? You want to see a freedom-hating brown-shirt thug, Smart Observer? Look in the mirror.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:31 pm 214. E:

Americans are so laughable…If I did not live in your country, I would have no idea that the Joe the plumber you all address as the symbol of the working is really a FARCE!!!
This is a republican faithful who attempted to embarrass the opposing party’s candidate and hurt himself in the process. In his attempt to do this, he told a blatant lie and exposed himself as a man who CANNOT be held as a model American (except you want to tell me that you all practice in your profession without licenses and fail to pay taxes).

Yet on purely partisan basis, you hold this criminal up as a working class man???
You do a great disservice to your workers and if all your workers are like Joe, I am not surprised your economy is in the shamble it is.
The media has done a very good job in exposing this man for the fraud he is….he should be picked.
If your political process tolerates criminals and upholds them as voices of law abiding citizens, then its not worth the trouble!!!

-Citizen of Bad Terrorist Communist Country
No human beings here only Arabs—(ps— we don’t pay taxes)

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:32 pm 215. Bill Perron:

Mike G. It truly amazes me how some people can so easily find whatever negativity they are looking for just about anywhere. Sammy was a great entertainer and for you to find Joes comment racist is racist itself. STOP WITH THE LOOKING TO FIND OFFENSE BEHIND EVERY COMMENT !!!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:32 pm 216. Hiking4T:

Here’s some inconvenient truth for Republicans. George Bush inherited a $5.6 trillion debt and a budget surplus. Bush will be leaving our next President a $10 trillion debt and a $500 billion budget deficit.

The job ceation scorecard? Under Bush, 5 million new jobs were created. Under Bill Clinton, 22 million new jobs.

Of course, Republicans will spin these facts every which way. Maybe they’ll even call Clinton’s tax plan socialism. But there is one GOP exception. Here’s a John McCain campaign commercial when he was running for President in 2000:

“There’s one big difference between me and the others—I won’t take every last dime of the surplus and spend it on tax cuts that mostly benefit the wealthy. I’ll use the bulk of the surplus to secure Social Security far into the future to keep our promise to the greatest generation.”
—McCain campaign commercial, January 2000.

Yep, McCain wanted to use the surplus for targetted tax cuts and to pay down the debt. McCain also said,“I’m not giving tax cuts for the rich.” (For any of you who want to check on that McCain told reporters that on January 5, 2000.)

Oddly enough, now that $5 trillion has been added to the debt and the surplus is long gone, McCain favors tax cuts for the wealthy. Fiscally responsible? You be the judge.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:32 pm 217. Shane:

What’s wrong Ruben, too lazy to post the facts of how ol Joe would do under Obama’s tax plan? Let’s stop the side show and start getting down to facts. You know, those stubborn things that tend blow up much of what the Republican party stands for these days.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:33 pm 218. Bill Tetzeli:

What’s forgotten here is Obama also said he wanted to raise the tax for $250K and above to what it was under Clinton. My recollection is everyone in every tax bracket did better under his tax regime. What’s so bad about that? If socialism is what we had under Clinton, when the economy took off and we actually started paying down the debt (so we could have had the money right now to deal with our problems) – give me socialism. Second, it wasn’t Obama who dragged Joe out before the nation, but McCain. Flyboy saw him as a last desperate chance (is there nothing about McCain at this point that ISN’T desperate?) to win the election.

I agree the media had no business digging into Joe’s past. But news flash – the Democratic party doesn’t control the media. Just ask your pals over at Fox News, who were also blathering about Joe’s personal details. Nor do most Democrats approve of what the media did to Joe. Hell, not even all the media approve of what the media did. Just look at the savaging the left-leaning Daily Show gave the garbage diggers:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/index.jhtml?episodeId=188615

Starting around the 8 minute mark.

In short, your argument? isn’t.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:33 pm 219. Harry:

Just when I was thinking that Obama was going to win in a landslide he (Obama) puts his foot in his mouth by spouting an old Marxist theme. This plus the Hillary factor, I predict, will cost Obama the election. It is a shame. I agree with General Powell that Obama would have been a transformational figure.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:34 pm 220. Tom S:

151 M. Baker Said “Personally, I have no respect for tax dodgers.” Really, tell it to Charlie Rangel the poster boy for the biggest tax dodger of all. And whatever happened to Pelosi’s claim she would run the “most ethical congress ever.” HA HA HA HA And if there’s anyone left here who hasn’t yet figured out Pelosi, Reid and Company intentionally destroyed the economy in their grab for power I have couple of bridges and a nice thing called Ponzi scheme for you to invest in.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:35 pm 221. Nathan:

I’m appalled at the number of people that think economic equality and universal equality equal socialism, or that the Republican party is the party of the little people. While they are blindsiding you with cultural issues like abortion, religion and xenophobia they are steadily putting their boot in your backs, increasing the income gap and taking away your rights.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:36 pm 222. ed k:

Just one question from the blog. Reuben you wrote “Obama and Biden take pot-shots at Joe the Plumber.” Name one pot shot that Obama and Biden have taken at Joe? I can’t find one….you must have based that statement you wrote on something?

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:37 pm 223. JD:

Oh, and it also amazes me that the republican base has been tricked into thinking simple intelligence is “elitism”. Keeping them dumb and afraid has worked for 8 years but I feel optimistic that we may exit the darkness this time around. Fingers tightly crossed. Maybe intelligence will even be restored as part of the American dream. We’ve got a long road to that, though. A lot of pride and selfishness to shed, first.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:41 pm 224. Tax Man:

I can invest up to $45,000 in an individual 401K Lie- try that and go to jail.

I can invest up to $250,000 this year in equipment and write it all off (Section 179 deduction), Another lie- you don’t even own a business. Because it has to be depreciation. Another Jail sentence.

I get to write off my medical insurance Not unless you have medical expenses to cover the deduction- usually 25,000 dollars. Another lie.

I get to write-off a portion of my auto and my home office expense, etc. Maybe!
I can probably make about $400K income before I even reach the $250,000 threshold.” Ha. try that with a democrat congress. lol
Another talking head Demorat, trying to lie his way into business.-

Have a blast running your psuedo-business, you fake. You also might want ask Obaama’s campaign to “spread the wealth around a little” to you trolls for posting this drivel. I hear they’ve pulled in 150 millions this past month.

Truth- Must be a businessman or Republican.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:42 pm 225. mishu:

Joe’s first name isn’t Joe, it’s Samuel.

OH NOEs! WHAT IS HE HIDING BY USING “JOE” AS HIS NAME!!!!111!!ONE!11ELEVENTY!!1

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:47 pm 226. MikeBoyScout:

Not that it matters….. but a couple of facts:
(1) Samuel (Joe) Wurzelbacher was introduced and thrown by name to the media by Sen John McCain.
(2) “Joe the Plumber” is not a plumber.
(3) Joe has NEVER made the threshold amount that would qualify for a hike in his taxes under Obama’s proposed plan.
(4) The business Joe hopes to buy, has NEVER earned the amount that would qualify for a hike in his taxes under Obama’s proposed plan.
(5) Joe would qualify for a tax cut under the Obama plan.
(6) The average plumber making $42k/year qualifies for a tax cut under the Obama plan.
(7) 95% of all Americans would qualify for a tax cut under the Obama plan.
(8) Sen. McCain proposes SPENDING $300 BILLION to pull poorly run mortgage sellers out from under.

……but it is unlikely you or most of the posters here care about any fact.
Maybe that’s why the best known and most respected African American Republican just endorsed Sen. Obama.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:47 pm 227. FrankDavisPoet:

Aisling: Or is is quisling? Probably not much difference. I’ll leave you to look up quisling. I believe that what we are seeing from the Dems amounts to the same thing. You may find comfort in the destruction of Joe the Plumber at the hands of the media by blaming on McCain, but Obama also thought that Joe was a business man, even though Joe never said that; he said he was thinking about buying a business that would make more that $250,000 and asked Obama a hypothetical question. Obama then revealed his Socialist perspective about income redistribution.
Both Obama and Biden and their allies in the press have sought to destroy Joe personally, in the same vein they have attacked Sarah Palin. That’s ok by me however, because it reveals the utterly depraved and thuggish character of these two men, while highlighting the Everyman Joe the Plumber. It reveals the contempt the MSM and Obama has for the American Dream.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:48 pm 228. DJG:

McCain and palin inciting hate?

a woman called him an arab and john mccain corrected her, calling obama a decent family man. Thats inciting haterid?

and nobody worry. if BHO and joe the senator get elected, we will all 500 dollar checks from our neighbor’s pockets. Out taxes will skyrocket, and obama will be taking out money and giving it to the scum of the earth in the center cities that refuse to get a job and MAKE some money, but at least we’ll get some money from the people who earn it.

whenever you start raising taxes on people who have worked hard for it, you are abandoning the basic ideas upon which america was founded. The self made man. the land of opprotunity, where the harder you work the better you do. As soon as it becomes, “when you do good, i’m going to start taxing the crap out of you,” you abandon the original american philosophy of economics.

This is not europe. Vote for tax cuts, not refundable tax credits for people who don’t pay taxes already.

McCain-Palin 08

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:48 pm 229. Tom S:

Eric wrote-”If I had $250,000 A YEAR – IN PROFITS – I wouldn’t mind someone taking $87,500 vs. $82,500 – I still have $162,500 A YEAR left.” Eric I have to wonder if you even pay taxes because if you did you wouldn’t have written the above. The current situation is far worse than your example. My wife and I work quite hard and have a combined income of $160,000 a year. Sounds great doesn’t it. Now let’s back out Fed Income Tax, Social Security and Medicare, don’t forget to double those numbers for the match, State Income tax, land tax, school tax, fire department tax, Utility taxes of 20% and sales tax of 8% when we spend what we have left. All together taxes total about %55 percent of our income. Do you really believe Obama will stay above $250,000 of income-you are dreaming.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:49 pm 230. required:

uncle tom reporter

RNjr is a shock jock ratings tool. Look how many people, in agreement or disagreement, get angry and post here or go out and blab. I wish cnn and other affiliates would stick to reporters and leave editorials to the coffee shops and personal blogs.

i will stop getting my news from cnn.com until the all of the editorials are gone. especially this one. signing out -

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:51 pm 231. Bru:

Obama’s “spreading the wealth” was inartful but it is true that that is an effect of what taxes do. I believe it would be better for taxes to be used for one thing financing the government. But it was also found 150 years ago or so that when all the money is in the hands of just a few society does not run very well. The right wing rich ideologues and the left wing socialist ideologues should both suffer the onset of a palgue. Let the pragmatism of the middle be our emphasis. While I see nothing wrong with tweaking an already progressive income tax system the idea of a refundable credit is a different animal if only one of degree.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:51 pm 232. tom:

glad to see all the dems on this site blaring away when their canidate is exposed for who he is – a socialist

hard working Americans are insulted when their opportunity to earn money is taken by a federal government that has no right to take more

McCain’s tax plans don’t favor the rich
1% most wealthy pay 37% of all federal income tax
5% pay 57%, top 20% pay 67% of all taxes even though they make 53.5% of the income
and 33% of the population pays no income tax at all

so how does Barack give 95% of us a tax break
it’s welfare, plain and simple

number two, when the bush tax cuts get re-evaluated
Barack will allow them to expire and say – look I didn’t raise taxes I merely brought them back to what’s fair

what else will he take – capital gains, estate death tax and anything else he can get his hands on

first off do you really think the government is better distributing your money than you are?

higher taxes actually bring in less tax income to the government than lower taxes
this article will enlighten you

http://ibdeditorial.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=266627596553650

Joe the Plumber exposed the mask behind Obama’s plan
it’s the old dem rich versus poor ideology
hate the guy with more

looks like hard working people in fly over states will be showing Obama the door, and none too soon

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:52 pm 233. Brainpower:

Mr. Navarette: Your article is “right on”. I agree wholeheartedly.

But, I’m confused because when you worked with the Dallas Morning News you wrote as a Democrat.

Now, in this and other articles I have read, since you moved to California, you sound more like you are taking a Republican point of view?

I’m confused.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:56 pm 234. Jim:

Please McCain and Palin have been inciting hate everywhere they go.

Well, it’s got that truthy feel, so I believe it!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:56 pm 235. SParker:

This whole Joe the plumber thing is absurd. If he were to someday actually earn $250,000 a year of course he would pay more tax and at a higher percentage. That is what income tax does, it re-distributes wealth today and always has. Are there really people earning 40-50,000 today like Joe that would be anything but happy if they found out they would earn 5-6 times that next year but the marginal tax rate at that level would be a bit higher than today? Surely it would be a nice problem for most of us to have and would not deter us from growing our business to get there.

Oct 19, 2008 - 5:59 pm 236. Reno Sepulveda:

Orale Ruben! Big San Joaquin Valley dittos. Nice to see you on PJM.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:00 pm 237. Mike C.:

Look everyone, Obama merely wants to get the very affluent to pay taxes at the rate they were during the Clinton years. Let’s not forget that Bush’s tax cuts were reckless and disastrous. People want health care, to win the war on terror, rebuild our infrastructure and invest in alternative energy. All the while we keep piling on trillions in debt and mortgaging our future. I mean, no one likes to pay taxes but we have to pay for this stuff somehow. Maybe all America is to you is the opportunity to get rich and not pay taxes. But that’s not the only thing that makes this country great in my eyes. My family earns more than 250,000 a year and I am happy to do my part to bring this country back.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:01 pm 238. SnappyOrlando:

Wow. This guy, represented himself as something he was not and ambushed Obama…what would you expect? This guy has his ideas, great. If it turns out that he owes back taxes and isn’t even registered to vote,he deserves the media crawling up his arse. BTW..didn’t McCain bring him up in the debate anyway?

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:03 pm 239. Carl S.:

Are you kidding me? This “Joe” character isn’t what he claims to be, and Democrats are taken to task for noting that fact – notwithstanding the efforts of Navarette and his fellow McCain-Palin cheerleaders to ignore it. Meanwhile, Ruben and the McCainiacs turn a blind eye to the fact that the Republicans continue to drag Obama through the mud – without worrying about the accuracy of their charges – in a desperate attempt to appeal to the “base” (and I use that word deliberately, because the effort to tap into the basest prejudices is so transparent).
Unbelievable.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:04 pm 240. Patriot Pete:

You have to be kidding me? You suckers are coming to the defense of a tax-dodging, pie-in-the-sky liar? He does not even have a plumber’s license, he has no idea of what he is talking about, apparently neither do you. Thankfully, no one is paying attention to Joe the Plumber, McCain and his joke of a running mate, and you.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:05 pm 241. LadyLou:

Did Democrats intend to “spread the wealth around” by encouraging sub-prime loans?

1994 – Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass, thwarted efforts by President Clinton’s Department of Housing and Urban Development to impose new regulations on Fannie Mae.

2003 –Victor Davis Hanson wrote:
“… in 2003 during the House Financial Services Committee’s hearing on Fannie and Freddie… Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., asked Fannie Mae CEO and fellow Harvard Law School graduate Franklin Rains — who took millions in bonuses even as he helped bankrupt the once-hallowed institution — whether he felt the mortgage giant had been “under-regulated.” Raines answered him under oath, “No, sir.” Then overseer Frank announced, “OK. Then I am not entirely sure why we are here.”…”

2005 – Shortly after Sen. Hagel’s (R-Neb.) bill to regulate Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac was sent to the Senate, Freddie Mac began paying a total of 2 million to consultants to try and influence Senators to vote against the bill. Initially all GOP members of the committee supported the Senator Hagel’s bill and all Democrats opposed it. Eventually Freddie Mac was successful in getting the bill killed.

2006 – McCain signed a letter with 19 other Republican senators calling for the tightening up of Fannie and Freddie’s loans. Sen. Obama stood with his fellow Democrats in opposing the bill.

2008 – Saturday Night Live created video slamming the Democrats regarding the 2008 mortgage crisis. Saturday Night Live pulled the original video because it had a text comment under the last couple that said something like, “This couple should be shot”. The following URL shows the original video. If the URL doesn’t work, google the following: “Saturday Night Live’s video on the Democrats and the financial meltdown” and you’ll find several URLs that do work. Saturday Night Live’s video shows where the “wealth” from the meltspread was “spread”.

http://darkegop.blogspot.com/2008/10/wow-saturday-night-live-blames.html

2008 –Americans have a sense of humor, even if they’ve lost trillions of dollars. Do they have enough sense of outrage to vote the politicians out who contributed to creating the financial meltdown?

A former Fannie Mae CEO received $90 million in bonuses by ”cooking” Fannie Mae books to qualify for bonuses. His ”fine” should be the same amount as his bonuses!

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:07 pm 242. Bill Tetzeli:

“A business doesn’t have to be very large before it takes in $250,000 a year, and there are plenty of plumbers and other contractors who are bringing in that kind of money.”

You do understand the difference between revenue and income, don’t you? The tax Joe’s so worried about is what’s comes into his business MINUS any expenses. He is being taxed on his NET PROFIT, i.e. what goes into his own private bank account for his own personal use AFTER he has paid his business expenses. If his business takes in a million dollars and his expenses are eight hundred thousand, he gets a tax CUT. Do you have a problem with a man making 200K a year getting a tax CUT? How is that socialism?

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:08 pm 243. Bru:

Response to Youngblood: Small business is generally consider to be those businesses who have gross income below $10 million. The form of IRS registration makes a big difference in the taxation picture. Most like Joe the Plumbers compnay are probably Sub Chapter S Corporations, partnerships, or sole proprietors. They pay no income tax. Their profit passes on to the stockholders, partnerns or proprietor. He is then taxed on his personal 1040 return just like everyone else. All of this talk about Small Business Taxes is a bunch of hooey. If the owner of Joe’s company has to pay an additional 3% on any amount above $250,000 he is in no worse shape that a CEO, Doctor, Lawyer or anyone else. The Republicans have always tried to claim to be sponsors or supporters of the bourgeois or commercial middle class. They are generally known to have the “nobility” or rich class so if they can ensnare the small business men then they got the rest of the others the so called “working class” whipped. Lets forget all this hooey and be pragmatists like Barak Obama and Warren Buffet, two people who can transcend supposed class warfare for the benefit of real solutions. There is a statistic some where that says small business generally does better under Democrats.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:08 pm 244. Mike J:

Where do the republicans find these mindless drones at. First Joe is a moron. What is so hard to understand, if you make less than 250,000 than you will not pay more taxes.This nut makes 210,000 less than that so what the f$%k is his problem. If he owns the business he still needs to make 250,000 profit to pay more taxes and should. Second Palin now here is the biggest mistake yet. Another planted republican drone who knows nothing on the policies of the team she represents cause she can’t say anything that is not wrote down in front of her. Not give interviews to people who might ask a question not on her script shows anyone with a mind who can process information that she is a mindless drone.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:11 pm 245. ZD Chatterlwy:

Joe’s question to Obama and Obama’s response would have bit an election-year tidbit if McCain hadn’t decided Joe was his next advertising opportunity. McCain took Joe and made him the lead story in all of this.

Considering that McCain mentioned Jae repeatedly in the debate, are you saying that if the press looks into whether Obama’s tax plan would help or hurt Joe, it is that somehow wrong of them to do so? If upon doing so, the press finds that Joe makes far less than $200,000 a year would actually pay fewer taxes under Obama’s plan than he would under McCain’s, is that some sort of character assisnation on Joe? If when looking into Joe’s background (because McCain made Joe a central figure in the debate about taxes) the press fineds that Joe owes taxes, should they not report it?

You’re making a silly argument (and you are not the first) that Obama and the supposedly left-wing press decided to attack Joe. It wasn’t an attack; it was reporting, and there was no animosity in it. It would not have happened if McCain hadn’t made the impulsive decision to bring Joe up in the debate twelve times and then continue bringing him up in his stump speeches.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:13 pm 246. Hardin Steele:

NObama and his cronies are scum. If anyone asks a legitimate question and they have to answer (as NObama did, on tape), shame on them!! Let’s destroy Joe the Plumber!

Many bloggers have assaulted Joe. “His name isn’t even Joe!”, “He owes taces!” “He only makes $40,000 a year!” What a load of crap! These are the same people that will be standing in line with their hand out waiting for their next government check, taken from Joe the Plumber, or rose the Teacher, or Wayne the Roofer, or Ed the Dairyman! The Socialist policies of NObama are sinking in and America won’t stand for it. All of the above examples were at McCain/Palin rallies and they know they will be the ones paying for losers welfare checks when NObama enacts his completely bogus and mathmematically impossible tax plan (which should be subtitled “Screw the average guy and spread around their wealth”).

Go Joe the Plumber! Hang in there!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:17 pm 247. Eric Rommel:

I think one thing Republicans and Democrats can agree on is that the news media in this country sucks.
Including the hackneyed article you have cut and pasted here.

I would remind you that it was John McCain who injected Joe the Plumber into the national spotlight.
Using his full name and then referring to him numerous times. I recognized it for the gimmick it was
right off the bat and wasn’t really interested in who he actually was.

I would further remind you that it was Mr. Wurzelbacher who then held a press conference on his front
lawn and accepted the invitation to do more media appearances than the GOP VP candidate has done
in two months. I understand he was in over his head but it can’t be said he shied away from the
attention.

If the Joe the Plumbers story had held up and illuminated the veracity of McCain’s position that would
have been the hook for the story giving the Republicans a much needed positive. Unfortunately,
It didn’t. Instead it revealed the mendacity and hypocrisy of the McCain campaign’s attack.

Joe the Plumber is victim of yet another cynical McCain campaign gimmick that backfired. It backfired
and embarrassed him and unfortunately an ordinary man who had nothing to gain from it succeeding.

The Obama campaign did nothing except attempt to relay the truth about Senator Obama’s tax plan.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:17 pm 248. Ace:

Jay Brezny, Your comment above is exactly the point. It is not about whether Joe is right or wrong. It is not about whether he would get a tax break or not. It is has to do with the fact that if you question Obama he will unleash his hench men on you. It has to do with the fact that if you have ever done anything wrong in your life you dare not question a politician. Are you serious. It is obvious you are not well educated. It is about the fear Obama and his crew are trying to instill in the American people. So what happens if you post a blog he dowesn’t agree with? They show up at your house? Your points make no sense. The sad part is you don’t even understand what the conversation is about. You are so worried your socialist Obama won’t get elected you are wiling to just let this type of insanity take place. It is a shame.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:19 pm 249. TWeb:

Joe, a relative of Charles Keating and a tax dodger, was clearly a plant by McPalBush. If he chooses to step into the limelight, then he ought to be prepared for the scrutiny. If he didn’t want the attention, he has only McPalBush to blame. McPalBush tried a cheap political gimic and he got burned. He vetted Joe about as much as Palin.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:29 pm 250. mishu:

I love all these idiots who think Joe is “plant”. His real name is Sam! OMG!! Put the bong down. Life is not full of conspiracies hiding around every corner. I bet you morons don’t think fire can melt steel.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:30 pm 251. caheidelberger:

Hey, the guy stretched the truth. He’s not a plumber. He’s not “Joe.” He’s not really planning to buy the business. He’s not going to see his taxes go up. There’s nothing wrong with pointing out the holes in his story, especially when a failing presidential campaign tries to make the holey story holy.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:36 pm 252. Someone75:

I kind of feel bad for Joe. I think he slightly misrepresented himself, but man . . . being in the national spotlight would be awful – especially when it comes to politics.

I wonder if Joe has a precocious little daughter who is politically savvy. And I wonder if every single person in the USA will vote and we’ll be at an exact tie and Joe’s vote will decide the election. Man – that would make a pretty mediocre movie!

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:43 pm 253. Joe of New Jersey:

Being an independent, we can see this whole show so stupid. How lame could that be in the part of the Democrat, bunch of cry babies. They love to provoke and bluff and when its called and confronted, they cry and destroy the Joe the Plumber. So what if he is not license, so what if he is not making 250K, so what, if he is a deadbeat, so what if he is tax evader, so what. The point is, the question was a legitimate common question. Obama’s Modus Operandi, when caught, deny, when caught in the act,m deny, deny and change the topic. Obama, grow up. Both Obama and Mcain’s plan wont solve the problem, they are both politician promise. How demeaning Barack’s comment that Mcain, is not fighting for a Joe Plummer, WOW.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:45 pm 254. Scott L.:

What a bunch of greedy hate mongers, you – PJM’s regulars. Jay Brezny nailed you and all your diatribes make commons sense people (like me) laugh.

You got your 8 years, hope your business bloomed enough so you could save for the rainy day that your greedy Republican politicians and Wall Street colleagues have precipitated. Then again, since you probably make an average of $50,000 at most, you will actually get a few grands back from Obama who you hate so much. But if you win this lottery you can’t stop talking about, then you might have to part with a few grands, which under Obama will go to support your darling – the Plumber looser.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:46 pm 255. ineedalife:

Don’t you recall, at the end of the Democratic primaries, that Donna Brazille declared the party no longer needed blue collar workers? (Well, white ones at least). So why are we so surprised to see them unload on one?

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:47 pm 256. Teacher123:

Wow, James

I thought as an American I was allowed to express my opinion but, I guess that’s another Bush brainwashing, if I am not with you I must be against you. Where does the KKK terrorists fall in that category — they must be with you? Real Americans right?

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:47 pm 257. Mubatu:

Barack is right. We need to spreed the money around sense some people have two much of it. we need to get hours and we will come Novumber!

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:49 pm 258. Marc Malone:

Mike G – So referring to Sammy Davis Jr. is racist? In what way? Do you know any famous, white tap-dancers? If he had used any such example, would that have been misconstrued as racist, too?

Yeah, I know that blacks are sensitive about any reference to tap-dancing, but only because they themselves use it in a different way.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:49 pm 259. Marc Malone:

We must be onto something, because the Obamabots are out in force. They know Obama had his Dukakis-in-a-tank moment. All this frenzied activity means they’re scared and flailing. Reasoning with them is pointless. They simply see nothing wrong with tearing apart a private citizen… nothing at all. It’s simply the great divide between the right and the left.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:54 pm 260. Tim:

Joe the plumber isn’t.

But lots of workers are. And we will be supported by Obama’s administration.

Oct 19, 2008 - 6:55 pm 261. bill monroe:

Yeah, it’s really funny after Barack Hussein Obama made yet another flub and admitted he’s a socialist that the democrats would go on the attack and go after Joe the plumber!
I hope people really figure it out before they vote for him. He has proven he will say anything to get elected. Obama has been the best back pedlar I’ve seen since I’ve been old enough to vote. The mistakes he has made is proof that Joe Biden is right on one thing—-Obama is not experienced enough to be president.
I have a huge issue with someone that wants to be commander in chief of our armed forces but won’t do the “fundamental” thing & salute the flag of our great nation.
A vote for Obama is a vote for Osama!

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:02 pm 262. myth buster:

James, believe it or not, there are some teachers who actually get the job of educating the youth done. They helped me test out of a year’s worth of engineering courses at the University of Michigan, even when the system didn’t cooperate. They should be pulling $100-150k/year for what they do. The bums who would rather indoctrinate children or do nothing deserve to be fired without severance.

As for me, I don’t want a handout and I don’t want anyone reaching into my pocket to help the poor. I’ll help the poor myself and do so far more effectively than the government can. I want the government to cut taxes for all and cut spending. I want the President to tell Congress we are spending $2.5 trillion next year, and this is what I refuse to cut. Figure out how to get the task done on $2.5 trillion or less or I will veto the budget until you pass it according to specs, subjecting us to a govt. shutdown if necessary. If you override my veto, I will give an order to the Treasury Secretary not to pay anything above $2.5 trillion out of the Treasury despite the authorization.

I want to replace our entire tax code with the Fair Tax, saving Americans at least $320 billion/year in compliance costs. I want to open up all our oil, gas, coal and uranium reserves to mining and drilling, which will generate jobs and tax revenues. I want to reprocess spent nuclear fuel, which will create jobs and solve 96% of our nuclear waste problem. I want to punish criminals by swiftly executing murderers, and would love to see capital punishment extended to rapists and kidnappers as well. For the rest of the criminals, let’s bring back chain gangs and let them slave away for our benefit.

I didn’t ask for a handout to pay for college. I signed a contract to serve as a Naval Officer upon graduation in exchange for tuition money. I will have to take orders from whomever is elected in two weeks, and I don’t trust that Obama even has a clue what makes people like me tick. True, my debt makes me a slave to the State for five years after I graduate, but that doesn’t mean they own my soul. To the rest of you, I, like Joe, will not make $250k any time soon. In fact, a large portion of my income won’t even be taxable. I don’t care. Do I not have a right to vote against my short-term economic self-interest, or even my long-term economic self-interest, if I wish to do so on principle? I wouldn’t vote for Obama if George Soros promised me a $100 million/year job managing his money, because I believe Obama doesn’t value human life, has contempt for hard work, and is unfit for command. I’d like to see Obama maintain bearing while being chewed out by my Gunnery Sergeant.

To those who would rather steal or cheat the system- enjoy your blood money; it will bring you nothing but curses.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:03 pm 263. The DEmocrat Party's Drubbing of Joe the PLumber - Debate Politics Forums:

[...] DEmocrat Party’s Drubbing of Joe the PLumber Pajamas Media

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:07 pm 264. fresca:

It’s delightful to read all of these putative defenders of the middle class calling Joe a moron, nut, criminal, fraud, phony, liar, fool, etc. It’s one of those things that endears the Left to the rest of the nation. Please continue your attacks for the next two weeks.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:16 pm 265. jbfalaska:

Well, with Joe (Sam) the Plumber having actually voted for McCain in the Primaries, and when watching him post his question – “200,000, (WHOOPS, I mean’t) $250,000, $270,000, $280,000, why tax me more. Well, Joe the plumber was less innocent then he now confesses on the subsidiary campaign trail he is now on. If plumbing truly is a $250,000 plus affair, I hope others will join the profession – again, with a license to actually do the work.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:17 pm 266. Der Bingle:

This is pathetic. After Bush, Rove, McCain, Schmidt and Palin play the dirtiest, lowest form of BS for nearly a decade – you are deriding the Democrats for this? No wonder McCain/Palin is such a pathetic ticket and that there will be veto proof Democratic majorities.

Barack Obama did nothing to demean Joe. And Joe, fairly clearly was doing his best to trap Obama somehow.

Your accusations of Socialism fall on deaf ears. You are only convincing each other. Enjoy the next eight years kids. You’ve earned it.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:20 pm 267. olga:

This is the timeline.
Obama camp posts video of he and Joe the Plumber having a great conversation on taxes a day or two before the debate. I posted it on my site, so I know. The McCain campaign saw the video and in their erratic way figured they had something. They contacted Joe before the debate. These things we know. Right after the debate, Joe was on with Katie Couric, slamming Obama as a socialist, saying he was a smooth talker, a tap dancer around questions. Obama spent a lot of time answering his question. Joe the Plumber said on Katie’s show that Obama taps nearly as well as Sammy Davis Jr. Disrespectful. Joe goes on all the morning TV shows, slamming Obama. We come to find out that he misrepresented himself — he owes back taxes, is a conservative republican (Obama could’ve spent hours with him and it wouldn’t have changed his mind) and is an unlicensed plumber. Hmmmm. What does this say? To me it’s another sign of a willy nilly campaign tactic by the McCain camp that went awry.
http://ochairball.blogspot.com/2008/10/mccains-dirty-secret-joe-plumber-bashes.html

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:20 pm 268. Eric Esquire:

How come conservatives were not in an uproar when Bush redistributed middle-class wealth to the corporate aristocracy??? Bush gave millionaires a huge tax cut and this transferred the nation’s tax burden down upon the backs of the middle-class. Now that Obama proposes to correct this imbalance, conservatives are acting as though Karl Marx has just arisen from the grave.

For 8 years the middle-class has shouldered this heavy tax burden without complaint. Its time for the millionaires to pay their fair share and no amount of “Joe the Plumber” propaganda is going to convince middle-class voters to relieve the rich of their liabilities.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:25 pm 269. mike:

Boy, If Joe had been a union plumber the sh*t would have really hit the fan. Would his Union Boss’ lean on him? All the Democrats do is shoot the messenger and ignore the message. Apparently, they don’t like us common folks asking honest questions of their candidates. Would that ruin the deception that Obama/Biden actually care about the working class? You know how to tick off a liberal? ‘Think for yourself.’

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:26 pm 270. Jim:

Yeah, Joe’s not a plumber. That’s the ticket! It’s so truthy it’s got to be true!

Uh, he’ll be better off with the welfare via IRS, the fool with his “self-reliance” BS. That’s the ticket!

Oh, and he owes back taxes! That devastates his whole argument! Just like the fact that he prefers to go by Joe, his middle name, not Sam, his first name.

That’s the ticket! The guy’s argument has been totally discredited.

Soak the filthy rich! Obama-Biden ‘08!

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:27 pm 271. Andy:

Drubbing? I think Joe not actually being named Joe, not actually being a plumber, not actually paying taxes or being registered to vote is quite legitimate for a figure that’s supposed to be a symbol of the middle class.

My father is Jeff the plumber. He owns his own small plumbing business in Kansas City, Missouri (and happens to pay taxes and votes). He has worked his ass off every day since I’ve been born, and he makes nowhere near 250,000. If he could make such an amount in this economy, I’m sure he’d be willing to pay the extra taxes.

The real spin in this election is taking legitimate criticisms and making them smears (Palin, Joe), while spinning smears into legitimate criticism (Muslim, Ayers). I am ashamed of the Republican party in this regard.

Are we really supposed to believe Obama is a socialist, communist, marxist, liberal terrorist implementing a “thugocracy” because his middle name is Hussein? How can you associate with anyone who feels this way? What the hell is happening to this country?

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:27 pm 272. Lance E:

The richest people in the country, many of whom inherited their money, are overwhelmingly members of the Democratic party. The Democrats outspent the Republicans in 2004 and 2006 and will do so again in 2008, which is why they are suddenly less insistent on public funding of campaigns.

The top 1% of earners in the country pay 40% of the taxes. Democrats focus heavily on this group as a source of fundraising, tax revenue and party leadership (Pelosi’s husband is worth 15M).

The bottom 40% of earners pay no taxes. The Democrats focus on redistributionist policies to buy votes from this group and have done so since the Great Society.

Democratic leaders (and their amen corner at Time, Newsweek, CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS, WaPo, NYT and MSNBC) do not give a damn about earners between the second and sixtieth percentiles, treat them like dirt and have since 1968, which is why they have always been vulnerable to third party candidacies from the likes of Wallace and Perot. The only Democrats that have reached this group since 1968 have been Southerners who could credibly project some familiarity with the middle class experience (i.e. Johnson, Carter and Clinton).

I am 43 and I have never seen anything like the open contempt for the middle class that the Democrats and their amen corner in the media have displayed for the middle class during this cycle, from Obama’s way over the top rhetoric and proposals, to the treatment of Palin’s family. Obviously, the leadership has concluded that given W’s manifest failure, the presidency is theirs for the asking and they don’t need to pretend they care about the middle class this cycle. It will be enjoyable to watch their hubris come back to bite them but sadly, the consequences for our country will not be pretty.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:28 pm 273. Gizelle:

Robin: “If Obama wins, instead of starting a business ……. I want to be the spreadee. If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.”

I have a business and will register it on one of those tax haven islands, then Obama gets nothing. For those of you deluding yourselves about who will be paying the bill for all his programs, all of the rich do this which is why the middle class earning far less than $250,000.00 will be paying the bill. The very rich and the very poor never pay. Folks earning $100,000.00 and less will be spreading their pay check around.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:35 pm 274. semperfiwife:

Obama has me confused. He insists he is going to give 95% of people a tax cut (credit) stating that they pay payroll taxes. But most of them only pay into FICA and Medicare. He still today quoted the Payroll Tax as being cut. So is he going to cut Medicare and Social Security??? Where are the Grey Panthers on that one??

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:35 pm 275. Marc Malone:

myth buster – Just remember that once you are in the military, you can’t speak out politically, last I checked. You can, but not referring to yourself as an officer, nor in uniform. Check the UCMJ and with JAG. Gotta be careful.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:36 pm 276. Joyce:

Your story seems to disagree with what Joe said on Fox,he stated very plainly NEITHER PARTY is responsable for the disruption of his life,nor the attention he has been getting.Joe blames the MEDIA ,FOR THE FALSE STORIES ,which BTW are along the line of YOUR article,MIS-LEADING .

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:37 pm 277. El Cid:

So, when we find out that just about everything about Joe the Plumber wasn’t true, including that he’d have to make $250,000+ in order for his taxes to go up, that mean the Dems should be ashamed? And the old saw about people on the bottom being there due to their bad choices…please!

What’s condescending is to write a piece that acts as if there shouldn’t be questions about America’s Joe the Plumbers just like anyone else. If Joe wants to be used as a political pawn, then Joe needs to be able to take the heat.

And Ayers…come on. I just saw a photograph of McCain shaking hands with Nixon. Who did more damage to America, Nixon or Ayers? The point is, I wouldn’t run around saying McCain is a crook because he shook hands with Nixon anymore than I’d say that Obama’s association with Ayers makes him a terrorist sympathizer.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:39 pm 278. Barney:

What a load of “whack”. You take a piece of someones response and turn it into “socialism”. The Mcshame/Palin ticket is a joke. Truly. a joke. If they think “Joe the pseudo plumber” is going to win them the White House they are delusional. In a year of utter turmoil, economic distress and worldwide disgust of American policies at home and abroad, all the McShame /Palin ticket can do is mudsling. what a disgrace.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:43 pm 279. Tom from WI:

This kink in Sen Obamas armor is telling. I fear a day when to question a politician gets you attacked not by the political machine but the people. This is such a dangerous situation and one that all Americans should notice. The American peoples tastes change faster than their chosen ones (went from Hillary to Obama pretty quick) They will destroy and riddicule anyone that stands in their way. I grew up being bullied in school and learned you can not ignore or give in to it or you are made to suffer more. The bully will always blame the bullied for everything and never take blame themselves.

If Sen Obama does win I will make a serious prediction that you will see the first black president of the United States. You will also see the first impeachment of the first black president of the United States once the American people realize what they have done when real change comes to this country and it makes a bad situation MUCH MUCH worse. Why on earth does the left think Americans taste will not change AGAIN????
A vote for Obama in 08 might just ensure a Republican white house for many elections to follow. Carter made many promises that led to 12 years of Reagan/Bush Sr. You remember Pres Carter the man who ’spoke funny’ and you know, according to the left attack machine that makes one a moron.

I fear for our country and our future. The youth can turn on those in power (Madame Speaker) just as fast as they choose.

History repeats itself and once again good people are doing nothing. (hell many are helping)

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:44 pm 280. Dylan Voltaire:

The problem with Joe the Plumber is he was being disingenuous and partisan when he asked his question. The conservative media wants us to find sympathy for him and says everyone is missing the real point that small businesses will be trampled upon by Obama’s tax plan. However, they are missing the real point by not saying that less than 2% of small businesses would net $250K.

Joe does not plan to buy a business. Joe cannot even pay his taxes. Joe said his taxes are nobody’s business, but I pay my taxes, Joe, I expect you to do the same. In the end, the real point is that Joe, and I, would do better under Obama’s tax plan–so would the country.

The evidence for this is in the comments of Warren Buffet, an Obama supporter. Buffet shows that the very wealthy are paying far less in taxes than the middle class. He says that he, a billionaire investor, paid only 17.7% while his secratary paid 30+% in payroll taxes. He sees this as a major problem that has existed throughout the plutocratic reign of the Republican party. He is calling for change.

Joe needs that change, but due to a complicated matrix of misinformation and prejudices (not necessarily racial), and a lack of critical thinking prowess, Joe just doesn’t get it. Unfortunately, there are many Joes out there (Joe Six Pack comes to mind).

The other thing that the average Joe does not seem to care too much about is the trampling on of our Constitution. Bush and Cheney believe that the Congress’ job is to serve the president (Cheney said as much publically). This is dispicable. It violates the basic principle of a separtation of powers that the founders based our democratic-republic. Palin echoed this uninformed view in her debate with the other Joe–the Joe in the Know.

Obama is a Constitutional scholar who respects the work of the founders and will uphold the basic principles of our country’s founding. Nobody can deny his understanding of our governing document. On the other hand, I can call to question the Republican respect for it.

Save our Constitution, throw out the plutocrats: Vote Obama/Biden ‘08.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:45 pm 281. CW:

Are you serious??? And McCain can relate to our average Joes right? LOL. He was born entitled, and his wife, well thats a whole other story. She has never had to work a day in her life, except for her charities of which she stole and swindled narcotics to feed her drug addiction from. Palin may be “you average hockey mom” which is probably exactly why she has shown to have no clue about politics (outside of Alaskan issues) or the rest of the world. And Bush/Cheney, well here we have another example of born entitlement. They are supposed to represent “the little guys,” let alone care about us. Gimme a break! They care about us about as much as they do the environment. Money hungry, greed and power control mongers. At least Obama has worked for who he has become. He wasn’t born with a silver spoon. How hypocritical!!!

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:45 pm 282. Cindy:

I think the issue is that Joe the Plumbers concerns have been addressed by both candidates. Under Obama’s plan, any money he makes over $250,000 would be taxed at an additional 3%. But Joe the Plumber has said to the media that Obama did a song and dance, referencing Sammy Davis Jr, no less, and didn’t answer his question. This leads one to think that Joe the Plumber isn’t interested in hearing and considering an answer re: his taxes under Obama, but is rather looking for information to reinforce his prior position, a Republican position. That suggests that he was never really interested in hearing what Obama had to say. It’s the lack of seeming practical reasoning and thoughtful consideration on his part, at least in regard to what he’s said publicly, that is being debated. And can I add that he’s agreed to continue this conversation with the media?

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:46 pm 283. Hiking4T:

Funny how all the Republican posters here keep trying to say it doesn’t matter Bush has almost doubled our national debt to $10 trillion. And Republicans clearly hate balanced budgets. Bush never even came close.

But I will give John McCain credit. He voted against the Bush tax cuts twice. Why? Here’s what McCain said on the Senate floor on May 26, 2001:

“I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle-class Americans who most need tax relief.”

And here’s what McCain said on the Senate floor on May 21, 2001:

“I am disappointed that the Senate Finance Committee preferred instead to cut the top tax rate of 39.6% to 36%, thereby granting generous tax relief to the wealthiest individuals of our country at the expense of lower- and middle-income American taxpayers.”

Hey, Republicans, does that mean McCain is a socialist?

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:47 pm 284. Barney:

The Wall Street Bailout. Socialism.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:50 pm 285. Gizelle:

You guys still bashing ‘Joe the Plumber’ you still don’t get it. Its not about Joe whatever his peccadillos its about Obama wanting to ” …. spread the wealth around”

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:51 pm 286. Flingo:

Joe The Unlicensed Tax Evading Plumber was a republican plant and a pathetic attempt by McCain to zing Obama on the final debate. McCain made a fool of himself and Obama won the debate and will win the election too. The only way you NUTBARS are going to put an end to it is to assisinate Obama and THAT’S still not out of the question because what is left of the republican party is a collection of racist scum and other assorted KKK minded individuals. Your Joe The Plumber blog is pure bullshit.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:51 pm 287. diogeron:

Just what did the “Democratic Party” say about JTP that supports your conclusion? I think this is the red herring of the week as far as I’m concerned.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:53 pm 288. I Am Joe | One from the Peanut Gallery:

[...] the Plumber” gets rotorootered (even his divorce records) by the media and partisans for asking Obama an inconvenient [...]

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:53 pm 289. Rob:

We’ve had the worst and most dishonest Republican Presidential Administration in the history of our wonderful country followed by the worst and most dishonest Republican Presidential Campaign in the history of our wonderful country.

So when yet another lie like “Joe The Plumber” comes along, the best thing to do is connect the dots and know that it’s yet another dishonest example run by these dishonest people who will soon be HISTORY!!!

Obama/Biden 08!

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:54 pm 290. Willythekorn:

Be reasonable, Ruben. I know it’s hard for you, but try it just for once.

Joe the Plumber was an obvious plant. And there’s nothing wrong with that! It’s all part of how elections are conducted.

At the same time, it’s perfectly all right for people to try and determine whether or not Joe the Plumber was authentic (or a plant), and they did so. There’s nothing wrong with that either!

In any event, Joe the Plumber has gotten his 15 minutes of fame, and likely will get far more. More power to him.

In the meantime, I find your sense of moral outrage to ring rather false against your support of the gutter tactics of the McCain campaign. Not only are they dishonorable, but they’re not effective. In what cave were you guys hiding during the Democratic primaries? Hillary tried throwing this crap at Obama, and it didn’t stick any better then than it does now.

Or are you just trying to rally the Republican base? If that’s what this is all about, two weeks out from the election, you folks are in even deeper doo-doo than I thought.

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:58 pm 291. joetheplumber:

obama mania goes mad
THESE VIDEOS JUST HIT THE NET CHECKEM OUT THIS WILL MAKE YOU THINK BEFORE YOU VOTE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tVMAUPXrUc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS-AL4MjTaA

Oct 19, 2008 - 7:59 pm 292. jbubba:

re: CS @ #207

Cut and paste is not our friend. I have reason to doubt you have ever read Adam Smith. If you have read him and this is what you took away from it then I would refrain from “self congratulatory” posting about other peoples’ self congratulatory posts.

Sheesh.

http://www.adamsmithslostlegacy.com/2007/10/context-is-important-when-quoting-adam.html

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:00 pm 293. LB:

His name is not Joe, its Sam. He doesn’t own a plumbng business, he is thinking about starting one. He only makes in the 40s, well below the threshold for any tax increase. He is a member of the “Natural Law” party, a party with fairly radical ideas. Could he perhaps have been a “plant”????

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:06 pm 294. John E.:

Where is the evidence that “Democrats” have done anything to Joe the plumber? I saw the media investigating who he was – the media are not “Democrats” – they are the media. And does Joe bear any responsibility here? He threw himself into this – headfirst. And only Joe is responsible for the position he finds himself with respect to what he owes. Why should McCain get the ability to make a point that is wrong? Obama’s tax plan would treat Joe just as Obama said it would.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:07 pm 295. Kate Sheahan:

caheidelberger,

it’s not about Joe, doofus, it’s about Obama subconsciously saying what he tries so hard to parse.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:07 pm 296. Jim:

Yeah, Rove knew which house Obama would go up to in Podunk, OH. He put a GOP operative in that house. Prolly a lawyer or economist, because if you listen to him he knows about socialism, tax rates being higher on the rich, the effect on business of increased taxation. No way one of these filthy working class goons could know that stuff. Yeah, he’s a “plumber”. LOL.

Karl Rove plant, people, nothing to see here.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:08 pm 297. myth buster:

Failing to pay your taxes on time is not tax evasion. Tax evasion is deliberately short changing the government on taxes or illegally masking your debt. Being late on your taxes or miscalculating how much you owe means you have to pay penalties, but it is not a felony like you seem to be making it out to be.

How was McCain born with a silver spoon in his mouth? 4-star Admirals are paid more today than they were when McCain’s father was in the Navy (even adjusted for inflation). Even so, today they earn $170k/year+ benefits. Upper-middle class to wealthy, yes, but not a silver spoon for their children.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:10 pm 298. tom:

why is it after 2 solid years of campaigning
we know more about “Joe the Plumber’s background than we do Obama’s?

every once in a while Barak shows his true intentions
“above my pay grade”, “cling to guns and religion” “punish those behind you, spread the wealth”

this issue isn’t about a plumber in Ohio
who has mercilessly been smeared for asking a question

this is about Obama’s answer and it’s ramifications

Obama just had his Dukakis riding in the tank moment
then he goes on to insulting a mere plumber, uhh

Joe has more principals in that he would rather earn his money fairly then live in Obama’s socialist (alienate the rich) classe society

don’t think he didn’t study long and hard on just how high to make the income threshold $250k

his tax cut plan is a lie and he knows it
those stupid enough not to see through it
heaven help you

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:12 pm 299. Matthew:

“Joe the Plummer” lied. He said he was about to buy a business. He wasn’t. No one would have known about his little lie if John McCain hadn’t foolishly decided to keep bringing up his name during the last presidential debate.

This is the basic problem with the Republican Party: they lie, then they get outraged when their lies are exposed.

Sarah Palin claimed that she said “Thanks, but no thanks” to the “Bridge to Nowhere.” No she didn’t, and the Republicans went nuts when she was called on it. Americans have had enough, and that is why the Democrats will win big in November.

Karl Rove wanted to create a permanent Republican majority and thanks to his efforts and his tactics, the Democratic Party will control Congress for at least a generation, and perhaps the presidency as well.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:17 pm 300. HK:

Republican or Democrat – if you have any doubt about Obama & his rabid followers Elitist disdainful hate for the white middle class (ie. such as Joe the Plumber)… just view this video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqis9mRcWl4

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:17 pm 301. skep41:

Its amazing the Dems don’t even see the symbolism of this; they are sliming Joe The Plumber! The swing voters in this election are the same people who didn’t vote for Obama in the primaries and he’s doing nothing to win their affections. This election will be decided in the last couple of days when the Joe The Plumber types, who are pretty disgusted with Bush and could have been had by the Dems, vote for McCain. McCain will win and it won’t be close. Obama’s support is very soft.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:20 pm 302. Seth Manapio:

Let’s examine some facts: McCain made Joe into a celebrity. Obama’s campaign did no investigating. Joe will get a tax cut under Obama. Most small businesses will get a tax cut under Obama. Most large companies do not pay income tax at the individual rate. None of these facts in any way adds up to Obama trying to destroy the American dream.

It’s all FUD. You guys are being sold a bill of goods by McCain. He wants you to believe that Obama, who wants to cut Joe’s actual, real life, today taxes and help him save money to buy that business, is out to get him. Joe may be looking to the future, but if he isn’t going to bother making an extra 200K because it might cost him 4K more in taxes later than it does now, he isn’t thinking clearly at all.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:21 pm 303. Roy Kersey:

Things we’ve discovered about Joe the Plumber:
1. He doesn’t have a license, or even a journeyman’s certification. Any plumbing work he’s done is probably illegal.
2. If Joe managed to buy his employer’s business, very unlikely, he might make over $250K. Right now, he saves considerable money under Obama’s plan.
3. If Joe were able to buy his employer’s business [doubtful] and actually made $260K net his first year, the additional taxes due under Obama’s plan would be . . . . $300.
4, If Joe doubled his net income to $500K, his additional taxes would be . . . $7,500.
5. Plumbers are not typical middle class figures. They make a lot of money compared to the typical worker because of a union card. They are not typical middle class figures. They charge $50 to $100 per hour, which most of us cannot get way with. Let’s talk about somebody besides plumbers.
royjohn

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:24 pm 304. A. Adams:

The F******g E-V-I-L elite media is now targeting ONE OF US us for asking a question!! Obama went to Joe’s neighborhood while Joe was out front throwing the football with his son; Joe made the mistake of asking a question of Obama and look what happened. Stand tough Joe!! You got a couple of big ones.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:25 pm 305. geemann:

So I have a question for you brilliant conservatives. WHEN Obama wins and the majority of your taxes are lower than they would be under McCain’s plan, are you going to send that extra money back to the government in protest, since you think it is a handout?

I didn’t think so. You’ll take it, and continue to bitch and moan.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:28 pm 306. ebsel:

There is a fatal flaw in Obama’s plan. He, the government, needs producers to create wealth that can be confiscated for redistribution. We, the producers, don’t have to create wealth for redistribution. Obama’s, or for that matter McCain’s plan only works if we allow ourselves to be made servants to our own destruction.
Honest ambition & drive, once a badge of honor, are increasingly decried as somehow evil by the very people who depend on us to make possible there schemes. Why do we continue to support this evil perpetrated against the worlds greatest producers?!?

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:28 pm 307. myth buster:

In case anyone misunderstands my points, let me say this. America is a great country, and only here can a child grow up in the inner city struggling to graduate high school, earn his diploma, enlist in the Marine Corps, serve for a few years, go to college and earn himself a commission and rise through the ranks, perhaps even becoming Commandant of the Marine Corps, or becoming President. In America, we don’t care where you came from, only whether you have the skills, the initiative and the tenacity to do the job asked of you. Don’t give me any BS about poor people not having opportunities- the opportunities are there if they only know where to look. I don’t mind giving them a guidepost or a leg up, just not a handout. If you want the government to pay for your college education, either enlist in the military or apply for a government scholarship- a scholarship given on merit for skills that agency giving it needs to cultivate (ie Nuclear Engineering for the Department of Energy), or to become a military officer.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:31 pm 308. annaa60030:

Wow! I am always amazed at what sore loosers Republicans are. How dare the real facts about “Joe the Plumber” come out…maybe McCain should have thought about that when he decided to put him in the national spotlight. I guess you can’t mention that little fact. Maybe the media is not investigating ties between Obama and Ayers because there are none. I happen to have been on the same Anneburg Education committee and I am certainly not a domestic terriost.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:31 pm 309. Aaron:

After reading one too many citizens claiming to be economists, I would just like to remind everyone about Econ 101: Price is set by Supply and Demand – not taxes. So raising taxes actually doesn’t raise prices unless the business in question is stupid enough to ignore the rules of the market. If a business were to raise taxes on their product/service beyond fair market value, guess what happens? People stop buying. I will probably never come back to this site again now unless it’s by accident. At least I tried.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:33 pm 310. geemann:

HK –

You need to adjust your priorities. You are defending Joe the plumber, a proven lier, and claiming he is being racially attacked? What a joke. You want to see some REAL racism? Check out this video from a McCain/Palin rally. REAL racism at its finest, and all coming from YOUR beloved party. Do you condone this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRqcfqiXCX0&eurl=http://www.zimbio.com/2008+Presidential+Candidates/articles/13808/RACIST+CROWDS+MCCAIN+PALIN+RALLIES+AL+JAZEER

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:39 pm 311. Brian Callahan:

The point about Joe the plumber, is not whether he is being drubbed, but that McCain again shot from the hip. Used Joe without doing his homework about whether his situation was as stated. The same kind of poor judgment he and his advisors used when picking Sarah Palin for VP. It is unfortunate for Joe, that he got caught up in it, but he did put himself into it with his hypothetical desire to purchase a business.

By the way. Are you really suggesting that McCain and his campaign has any regard for peoples reputation’s after all the vicious, misleading and outright false garbage they have put into the media?

Joe will survive, probably somewhat better off for the experience, and less likely to misrepresent himself in the future.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:43 pm 312. HK:

To #98 CJ GORST – here is your visual proof of your hero in action downing Joe the Plumber.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqis9mRcWl4

And you might read the Wall Street Journal Article explaining his new Welfare Scheme by IRS Taxation plan. (See link below) You will be so proud to see that Obama is really on the side of us middle class taxpayers!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122385651698727257.html#printMode

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:46 pm 313. sjhuot:

Wah, wah, wah!

All the Repubs can do is complain. I seem to recall the “Sore Loserman” comments about Gore. Repubs are worse, and they haven’t even lost yet (but they will).

Here’s the bottom line:

1. Republicans have been in full control for six of the last eight years, and have been able to block the Dem majority for the last two years with the President and enough Repubs in the Senate to block. Repubs venerate Reagan. How would they answer the question he so effectively asked about the Carter years: Are you better off now than you were four years ago (or eight)? The Repubs castigated Carter for decades for the economic conditions that occurred under his watch, but now they want to avoid taking responsibility for what happened on their watch.

2. They can try to blame the current economic mess on Dems, or on poor people who got loans they couldn’t pay, but that’s just desperate. If I was looking for someone to blame for the current economic mess, I wouldn’t start with those who are about to be foreclosed out of their homes. I’d look at the ones who took the money and ran. This was a clear case of the Golden Rule – those with the gold made the rules (same with oil, by the way).

3. Repubs claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility. Are you kidding?!? Under whose watch has the national debt ballooned? The national debt was a little over 1 trillion dollars when Reagan took over. By the end of Bush the first, it was at a little under 5 trillion. By the end of Clinton, it was a little over 6 trillion. After eight years of “responsibility” and “tax cuts increase government receipts,” we are over 10 TRILLION in the hole. Yeah, that sounds like the party of fiscal responsibility!

4. You still hear a lot about how the Democrats are the party of “tax and spend.” Whether you like it or not, at least tax and spend is honest. The Repubs have practiced “borrow and spend.” They tell the people, “Don’t worry, you won’t have to pay for it.” Whether it is the war in Iraq, increased allocations to Homeland Security, “no Child Left Behind,” or anything else this administration has tried to sell, they have always done it on the credit card. Just like when you get a “$5,000.00 check” from Citibank that is “free.” Somebody, some time, is going to have to pay. Life begins at conception, but according to the Repubs, debt begins even before conception. Our unborn children and grandchildren will be paying for Reagan, Bush 1 and Bush 2 for years upon end.

5. Iraq is better since the surge. However, there was still no coherent reason (other than Bush’s desire to make up for what he perceives as his father’s failings) that we went in there, and as Iraq improves, Afghanistan and Pakistan deteriorate. And, our standing in the world has sunk.

6. The Repubs sound sooooo desperate right now – Obama is un-American, not patriotic, etc. This is quite frankly insulting to the intelligence of most of the American people (at least, the intelligent ones). It isn’t surprising that the more negative McCain and his buddies get, the less the American people think of McCain. You may not like his politics, but the terrorist association is idiotic. It plays to the paranoid fringe of Repubs, but nobody else. What is really sad is to see a once honorable man (McCain) use the same techniques that once defeated him in South Carolina.

7. Sarah Palin??? Can you imagine her facing down Putin or Ahmadinejad? I cannot believe that McCain undercut his own argument that Obama was unqualified by choosing her. She has done nothing since the convention to assure most Americans that she is a thoughtful leader. She is good, however, at reciting scripted negativities. Just what a “leader of the free world” needs to be able to do!

I expect that once Obama is elected, he will be subject to the same undermining tactics that Clinton was. I only hope that unlike Clinton, Obama doesn’t give the sore losers the chance to undermine him. They talk about how Obama and his people “hate their country,” but they are the ones that are full of hate.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:47 pm 314. Joanne Jacobs:

Like quite a few people, Joe prefers his middle name. (Note that “Sam the Plumber” sounds just as blue-collar.)

Although he didn’t complete his apprenticeship and is unlicensed, he works as a plumber. Therefore he’s a plumber.

He’s not the son of the Wurzelbacher who was involved in the Keating scandal. The ages are wrong.

He is registered to vote and voted in the primary as a Republican.

He owes taxes, though he only earned $40,000 last year.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:48 pm 315. Jane:

This is not about what question was asked or the answer to that question. This is about division of the population created by the right wing, who say they are so Christian, but don’t understand what Christ was about. Share, and you will be rewarded. Hoard and you will be lacking.
Imagain if Christ had hoared all those loaves and fishes?
Would he be in your minds today?

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:50 pm 316. myth buster:

And what happens when you reduce return on investment? People pull their capital out. Raising taxes on businesses means slightly higher prices, coupled with lower wages and profits in the short-term. In the long run, all business taxes are paid by consumers, because supply will be restricted by reduced capital and labor until the price rises enough to pay the taxes.

So what if Joe the Plumber doesn’t have a license. His municipality doesn’t require one and there is no reason it should. Licenses for skilled labor (not medicine) are a union device to keep out competition, forcing people to pay union dues even if they don’t want to. [Note: nothing in the law requires you to have a Law Degree to practice law; it's only a crime (fraud) to claim to have a degree when you don't, or to claim to be a member of the bar when you're not. If I wish to have my little brother represent me in court, I may be a fool, but it is my right to be represented by him.] Personally, I hate unions- they’re more trouble than they’re worth. My uncle worked for a union shop that went on strike over $.50/hr, and ended up causing the plant to close. Instead of higher pay, all the employees lost their jobs, and the union left them high and dry.

By the way, does anyone plan on answering my question about why people think I’m not free to vote against my self-interest, perceived or actual.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:54 pm 317. Steve in PDX:

Funny thing about all this is, well two things actually:

Obama is going to be elected in a cuople weeks; and none of you clowns are going to pay more taxes than you already do. The very wealthy will pay more – about as much as they did under your hero, Ron Reagan; and less than they did under your other hero, George H.W. Bush.

This will affect the economy positively, because the government does not burn the increased revenue, or hide it under the matress; the money will be spent on salaries, construction contracts, medical care, entitlements, grants – and will re-enter the economy quickly. Some of you will be paid directly, some indirectly.

All will benefit – even the wealthy. That’s how government works.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:55 pm 318. myth buster:

geeman, why should anyone here trust anything put out by Al Jezeera? They are a mouthpiece for Islamofascists.

Oct 19, 2008 - 8:56 pm 319. Tim:

Joe’s mistakes are his own, and started long before Obama came to his neighborhood.

You rail against illegal workers, but praise some guy who decides to work without a license.

You whine that the media isn’t investigating the connection between Obama and Ayers, but you conveniently overlook the recent front-page article of the NY Times that detailed their investigation and that Palin subsequently embraced whole-heartedly.

You talk about earning $250,000 as if every other person on your street is making that much. You know what? Do you know how tax brackets work? Let me explain: everybody pays the same tax rate on their income up to a certain point. So if taxes are increased for the wealthiest making over $250,000, they only pay the highest tax rate on whatever over $250,000 they make. Disincentive to produce? Give me a break. You’re a fool if you choose to make less income than you otherwise could just because that last bit of additional income is taxed more than the first $250,000 you made.

And finally, here’s my biggest problem with you so-called fiscal conservatives: if you want low taxes and small government — fine. But then the government needs to live within its means. (Ahhh… the frequently forgotten flip side to fiscal conservatism.) That means no more $10 billion a month for a war in Iraq, that means no more bailouts for banks (that’s right, the one McCain voted for and Palin praised), that means ending Medicare and Social Security, and that means praying that our private sector will find it in their own self-interest to protect us from terrorists.

You know what’s more responsible? Maintain the most critical projects of the government, cut the wasteful ones, and then find a way to pay for what is being spent. How does the government pay for its expenses? Hate to say it, but taxes. You figure out a tax plan that does all of the above as fairly as possible, and I’ll vote for you.

And what’s this about socialism? Do you even know what socialism means? Have you been to a socialist country? Do you know what’s on the other end of the spectrum from socialism? It’s called fascism, and it’s what was espoused by some guy who apparently might be one of your heroes: Adolf Hitler. Are Republicans drifting to the spot once held by Nazis? Well, one thing is for sure — they’re going to get there a lot sooner than any Democrat is going to get to anything remotely resembling socialism.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:00 pm 320. mishu:

Obama’s not going to lower middle class taxes. He’s going to be just like Clinton who made the same promise. He’ll raise them for everyone who PAYS taxes. It’s the same dem lie over and over again.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:00 pm 321. some facts:

Joe is not his name. Joe is not a plumber. Joe does not have a license.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:00 pm 322. Physicist:

You say that Obama took a “potshot” at Joe the Plumber. How so? The press started dredging through his particulars, but Obama never demeaned him or was anything but courteous. Doesn’t that matter?

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:01 pm 323. HK:

#312 Geeman – Your view fits the Obama scheme perfectly – and you missed the point entirely. Obama looks at a common American citizen and publicly insults him (and he is supposed to be a leader) Your video shows some common people at a rally expressing their opinion – I guess under you and THE ONE’S regime – Free Expression should be banned.

BTW – NEWS FLASH!!! Joe The Plumber will make his $249,999 from book and Film/TV rights – then start investing the remaining royalties into the plumbing company he can now realistically expect to buy. (Thus avoiding the oppressive Obama tax) Thanks Obama – you have made one and probably only one success story in America.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:01 pm 324. Robert:

Number 8 says it all. Joe is irrelevant. The whole story is about Obama being a socialist. I wrote that same line as a comment in the NY Times and they wouldn’t print the comment.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:02 pm 325. guade00:

This piece displays the depth of analysis typical of the right wing. Here, the studious author says, “it’s also often the case that the well-to-do have worked hard, made sacrifices, taken risks and made good choices, and this sort of behavior should not be punished.” An additional 3% tax on income above $250,000/year can hardly be called punishment. It’s called responsible government. And rather than bonding out the costs of running our government to overseas sovereign investment trusts, where the only beneficiaries are states whose interests do not sit comfortably aside the United States’ interests, a tax hike on this class of earners does negligible harm to the economy while saving on long term interest payments. Remember, the budget deficit this time around was a Republican creation–tax cuts combined with run away spending by a two-house Republican congress and a Republican White House till 2006.

Pull yer knuckles off the ground.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:02 pm 326. geemann:

Myth Buster –

Listen to the words coming out of the peoples mouths. That’s all I ask. Why does it matter who reports it? Hell I think Fox news are a bunch of fascists, but if I heard someone say these things on one of their reports I would still believe it because it’s coming directly from their own mouths. Then again, maybe its all computer graphics or dubbed audio….but most likey its because you just refuse to believe the majority of racism in america stems from the white right wing conservative base of your party.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:11 pm 327. Sean McGrail:

Really? First, let’s have a reality check. Plumbers making $250,000? According to the Census bureau, this would put Joe the Plumber’s pay grade above lawyers, doctors, scientists and most other occupations. This makes about as much sense as saying that since you’re from Alaska you know how to deal with Russians better because you’re geographically closer. You expect us to believe that all those smart people applying to get into Harvard Medical school haven’t figured out that they can make more money with a 2 year paid apprenticeship as a plumber than they can with 12 years of higher education at a cost of $600,000?

Republicans like to think of themselves as “individualists” who think it’s every one for themselves, sink or swim. Get government out of my life and I’ll be fine they say…unless you want to marry a person of the same sex or are not ready to have a child. But there is a fine line between being and individualist and a self serving greed. I watched the video and Joe comes across as just plain greedy as the guy who doesn’t want to pay his portion of the bill. He’s all for the Iraq war, but he doesn’t want to pay for it. He wants paved roads to drive his truck on, but he doesn’t want to pay for it. Joe wants a free lunch and he’s angry because he’s not getting one.

Joe the plumber takes for granted how building codes that the government enforces are the same reason he has a job. The taxes he pays would pay for more building inspectors and Joe would get more business. But Joe can’t see that.

He can’t see the world as it can be he can only see it as it is. Joe’s life would be better under Obama, even if he paid more takes, the fact that more of his customers…95% of them that make less than him would have money to spend, they would be more likely to pay him than do it themselves and they would also buy more houses, which include plumbing. Some times it’s worth it to pay a little more to get the extra bonus. Same for our government. Having the rich kick in their fair share is the only way to go.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:11 pm 328. FrankDavisPoet:

Call me the Gary Gardner: My small business grossed almost $400,000 dollars. It was a good year. After expenses and deductions the profit(AGI) was $280,000.
Under Obama’s tax plan:
$280,000 * 39.5% = $110,600
- $110,600
========
$169,400
– $16,642 SS ($106,000 * 15.7%) For 2009
This is if Obama doesn’t raise limit to 250,000

If he does that, which is on the table, then
the SS tax will be $43,960

========
$152,758
– 8,120 (280,000 * 2.9%) Medicare
==========
$144,638
4,800 ($30,000 * 16%)
=========
$139,838
Just for Federal
Under Obama’s plan is supposed to get a respite over the current limit, then be taxed at the 16% rate for the amount over $250,000.
The taxes on the “rich” person above making an AGI of 280,000 Could be: 162,080.
Leaving $117,920.
Wow you socialists are generous folks.
Makes it tough to save eh?

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:12 pm 329. Ben:

The American people do not need a drinking buddy as their president you moron! What happens when they elect one? You get W. You get a war in Iraq when a terrorist in Afghanistan attacked us. You get the highest deficit in history. You get a divided country dealing with morons like yourself talking about Ayers and Obama. He was 8 when Ayers attempted the terrorist attack. What about McCain’s involvement in the Iran-Contra scandal? What about Palin asking for more executive power when the most important branch in gov’t is the Congress. The Republicans have turned facist and big government, that’s why they are going no where and have ****** like you launching character attacks. You are a loser and are ruining the country.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:13 pm 330. Don Williams:

Can you imagine the outcry if Obama had exploited such a ringer, an unlicensed plumber, mispronounced his name, mis-stated his income, missed the fact that he owed back taxes and had no valid plumber’s license, then laughed at the suggestion that a quarter-million dollar annual income is pretty damn good for a plumber? Come on. You buried the lead. You missed the story! McCain’s lack of judgment and shameless pandering and fabrication shine through here. His whole argument about Joe is fraudulent!

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:15 pm 331. Deborah:

geokstr: I read your piece on narcissism, and you don’t give any examples to prove that Obama is a narcissist. In the last debate it was McCain who talked about himself, and Obama who talked about the American people. According to your criteria, McCain scores a lot higher on the narcissism scale. he thinks that his POW experience gives him a pass on everything else.

As for everyone who thinks that Obama is a socialist, you’ve got it wrong. Under Bush we have had socialization of risk and privatization of profits. That means if you make a lot of money you can keep it, but if you lose a lot, the rest of us will have to bail you out. I don’t see how Obama could possibly be worse for working people and the middle class than Bush or McCain, who will continue these policies. The economy does better under Democrats than Republicans — less unemployment, better returns on investment, etc. Calling Obama — who is actually a moderate Democrat– a socialist is just scare tactics.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:22 pm 332. nancy:

We’ve seen nothing until we see what an obama presidency will leave us with, we will be so far indebt China will be our new government. Obama ran on The socialist ticket in Illinois. the man is a socialist. russia said they will be capitalists and we will be socialists. guess they were right. be ready to pony up the money that obama wants to give as welfare, retribution, redistribution call it what you will but it’s your money going down to the bottom of society that for one reason or another would rather drink beer and watch t.v. than work. these obama voters haven’t a scintilla of knowledge about their own party…most being kids that when out of college can’t write or spell! “the Democracy will cease to exist when you take from those who willing to work and give to those who would not”…Thomas Jefferson..

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:24 pm 333. Robert M Brown:

Reading some of the responses to this article, I am amazed at the vitriol. First, Joe the Plumber misrepresents himself, and you criticize the Democrats when this fact is found out? Why? He was in the wrong. He could have represented his situation clearly. Then, why did McCain choose to make him a focal point of his debate? If he was bound to ruin this man because of the misrepresentation, isn’t McCain at fault as well? Further, Obama answered Joe’s question correctly. The point is that under Republican leadership, the rich have dominated. They have systemically attempted to destroy the unions; thus, attempting to decimate the middle class. I don’t understand why they’re doing this because it has contributed to the destruction of our economic system. When people can’t buy cars, for example, carmakers can’t sell them. The rich people of America should be glad to 1) pay more taxes to help the infrastructure and rebuilding of America (as I am), and 2) pay employees more so they they can contribute to our economic health. The greed of the wealthy since Reagan became President has known no bounds! America is better with a healthy middle class, which is supported by powerful unions. Joe the Plumber, the one who will make $250,000 per year is a myth in the world I live in.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:25 pm 334. Kristen:

Obama didn’t pick Biden to appeal to lunch-bucket voters or any other group of people, except to appeal to voters who want real foreign policy experience in the White House. Biden is chair of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and didn’t get that position because he can see a foreign country from his house.

If Obama wanted nothing more than to become president, he would’ve picked Hillary. If he had, McCain would have conceded by now. But instead, he picked the person that would serve the country’s interests best. McCain puts “Country First?” Come on — Palin was nothing but a political maneuver. McCain has shown that in fact it’s “McCain First” and he’s willing to risk the country’s future by suggesting that Palin is qualified to be commander-in-chief.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:25 pm 335. myth buster:

I don’t object to Joe working without a license when the law doesn’t require him to have one. I also don’t believe in union shops or agency shops. While I would never join a union, workers do have a right to organize. However, implicit in that right is the right to refuse organization and the right not to have your money seized by a third party for representation you do not want.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:27 pm 336. The Grey Zone:

It seems that this is being approached from a stunningly black or white viewpoint.

It seems the liberals here tout that there is no injustice and paint Joe the Plumber as an ideologue or a Republican plant.

Then the conservatives make some pretty outlandish statements about “Stalin-ism” and socialism.

Both extreme sides of this argument due a disservice to the respective right and left by injecting so much vitriol and division into what should be a dialogue…rather than a ranting flame fest.

If you can’t see how ridiculous some of these comments have been, then you are equally guilty of being blinded by rhetoric and a close-minded dogma.

Look…there are valid points that Joe’s overall increased tax burden would be from a few hundred to several thousand dollars. I think the argument that this is going to destroy people and their businesses is specious at best. Once you are making in upwards of $250k/year you can hire a decent accountant and financial planner who can minimize and navigate the tax code (something you would do regardless of who is president). I dunno…I make barely any money and own a new business that is trying to get off the ground, but if my tax burden increased by 3%-5% and I was making $250k…I can think of worse problems to have.

However, there is a compelling argument to say that Obama’s tax plan could also cramp business development and spending and overload employers (i.e. adjustments in payroll tax obligations, etc…). I think this is where there is might be strength in an argument against Obama’s tax structure…yet I don’t see anyone really discussing this point.

Perhaps it’s not as exciting to have a flame-fest raging back and forth on the more relevant subtleties because they don’t fit into extreme right or extreme left viewpoints?

Seriously…both sides…you all need to realize this stuff is not nearly as extreme as either of you make it out to be.

As they say, “The Devil is in the Details”…but to unravel that and discuss it would require effort and thought and putting aside a blind adherence to once political dogma or the other.

Really, what i want to know who is going to steer the economy back on track so people will have the money to buy my products and I can finally afford to take a freakin’ vacation!

If McCain’s plans to adjust taxes or lower taxes on the top bracket gets the economy churning, he’s definitely got my vote.

If Obama’s tax plan costs me an extra $10,000 in taxes, but get’s the economy rolling and me up to making $250k/year…he’s definitely got my vote.

I think the real truth is that this Joe The Plumber scenario is total red herring that is just giving everyone who has made up their minds and stopped actually thinking, a most wonderful opportunity to get on a soap-box and pound their chests about those damned right-wing conservatives or those hair-brained Marxist lefties.

Now to the real task…gotta try figure out which of these guys is going to *really* be able to improve the economy and our foreign policy issues.

That doesn’t fit very well into blogs, slanted media, or flame-fest comments and will require me to *gasp* think!

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:27 pm 337. nancy:

I’d rather have a moosehunter from alaska than a jackass from chicago.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:30 pm 338. lee:

There’s a lot of partisan bickering going on here, but I wonder if both sides need to read the comment by poster “Shefali”

Many nations can be described as “democracies with socialist policies” (if at that). Barack Obamaesque presidential candidates can rise to power if they can exploit their citizen’s victimhood complex and effectively blame the nation’s difficulties on the Western / European / American establishment.

Big corporations and national conglomerates don’t exactly wither in the vines in a pseudo socialist Asian nation. In fact, they’re probably more in bed with the government than the United States. If only a handful of South Korean corporations (let’s say Samsung or LG) fell, then the whole country face trouble.

The world is cheering for Obama mostly out of their unquenchable contempt for George Bush. The reform types have already replaced some of the old guard that allied with Wasthington over the years. But once they actually have to get to work, they typically get very little done. Truth be told, if BHO was a candidate in a nationalist Asian country, he might not get elected now, because (1) soft socialists like Roh Moo Hyun already bombed out of office with 20% approval rating (2) no Japanese, Taiwainese, or Korean will even think about voting for a man whose associate hates their country enough to blow up a government building and boast “I wish I could have done more.”

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:31 pm 339. crys harris:

It always annoys me when Republicans and Democrats pretend that all political machinations, deceits, and unethical behavior only exist on the other side of the aisle. Are we really so naive as to believe that something has “happened” to one party and not the other?

What are the political philosophical principles of either party? Spare me the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice drivel. Serious challenges are faces our country and all both sides have to offer are ridiculous slogans, talking points, and attack ads.

Republicans, get over yourselves! Yours is NOT the party of dignity and “Joe Six-pack” individualism. Yours is the party of lobbyists, warmongers, and de-regulators that are responsible for the current banking mess. Plus, what ever happened to Republican fiscal conservatism? HMM? If you’d get the heck out of people’s bedrooms and reproductive organs for a while, you might re-discover fiscal restraint.

Democrats, get OVER yourselves! You don’t give a crap about “average citizens”. You care about power and sticking it to Republicans. At least the Republicans can claim some consistent social policy. I don’t get much from Dems besides, “we hate those guys” and “we need to spend more”.

Finally, Obama detractors, do not try to pretend that Obama has just invented progressive taxation. Do not try to pretend that our current tax rate is historically high or that any new tax rate that we get under either administration will be historically high. Do not believe that McCain can balance the budget and lower national debt with his policies. And do not try to pretend outrage at Obama’s progressive/liberal beliefs. Democrats have championed progressive taxes for at least all of my 37 years.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:32 pm 340. Tim:

FrankDavisPoet: Thanks for your effort at calculating your taxes for us, but it looks like you don’t understand the concept of tax brackets. Go to irs.gov and look it up. But here’s a hint: you aren’t paying 39.5% on your total AGI.

By the way, can you run the same numbers for what you’ve been paying under Bush? I know that would weaken your argument, but you’re all about accuracy, right?

Also, can you give us an idea of how we can balance our country’s budget by lowering taxes from where they are now?

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:33 pm 341. ann:

All Joe did was ask a question. That’s it. Leave the guy alone. I have one question myself. Do people realize how jobs are created? People like jobs but forget the employers and “big companies” have to actually create them. Do people want a hand out or a chance to work hard themselves by getting a job (through an employer) and earning their income? Personally, I would never want a “hand out”, however, people who can’t work should be taken care of. I think tax cuts can help companies big or small to create MORE jobs and get the economy going. There are also many private non profit organizations out there that are run only on contributions of individuals. If you tax these people who earn higher incomes, they cannot give as much to charity or organizations who they feel are run responsibly (unlike government run programs with so much waste). Lastly, if those who have worked hard for their earnings stop spending money – the trickle effect is many of the other businesses who are supported by these folks will also go under.

Cutting the waste and jump starting the economy is the only way to get things moving again.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:37 pm 342. CJ:

#331 Ben,

Liberals like you are truly something else. You launch on a character attack on Conservatives for supposedly going on a character attack on those they disagree with. eh?
So, you are outraged for what you are doing. Wow! no wonder you are a Liberal and an Obamabot.

Let me ask you one simple question, what have the Democrats in Congress done these past two years to reign in government spending and to get us out of Iraq.

Democrats have been in control of Congress for two years, what have they done to bring our troops home from Iraq and to cut government spending?

Ben, I am sorry to say, but

1) You are the one throwing the character attacks. Your post is riddled with this.

2) Like a typical Liberal and an Obamabot you engange in the same type of behavior that you attack others of doing.

3) Your whole post is typical Liberal, Obamabot talking points. Have you every made an attempt to think on your own? Try it, you won’t be such an Obamabot.

and did you think about my question….what have the Democrats done these past two years to reduce spending and to bring our troops from Iraq. Don’t forget that Reid and Pelosi promised the Liberals that they would bring the troops back home before Bush left office. hmmmm…what happened? Democrats have controlled Congress for two years. I know Obama and the Democratic party don’t want you to know this.

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:39 pm 343. CJ:

All that Joe did was a question. he asked a question and Obama answered showed Americans who Obama truly is. A socialist, a communist, plain and simple.
The media, the Democrats and the Liberal pundits are now terrified that this bit of unadultered truth from Obama directed at Joe the Plumber will destroy Obama’s chance to win the election.
Thus they are attacking Joe and putting all type of information out there to change the direction of the story. Instead of the story being about how Obama answered, they have forced it to be all about Joe.

What is scary is that all that Joe did was ask a question. He was pleasent and very respectful of Obama and now the Obama campaign, whic has been feeding propaganda about Joe to the media, the Liberal pundits are punishing Joe for dearing to as th eDemocrats Dear Leader a question that showed the world who Obama truly is, a communist.

Be scared Americans, be very scared of what is to come under an Obama Presidency. If this happened to a private citizen before Obama is elected, just wait and see if anyone dares to attack Obama publicly. America is changing and changing for the worst. Freedom of speech is out the window, Liberals hate it and hate it with an incredible passion. The only free speech that Liberals like is the speech that agrees with their ideology.

I just find it amusing that the media, Obama, etc don’t want people to concentrate on Obama’s answer, rather they want the story to be about Joe. How truly sad and pathetic.

The nice thing is that it looks Joe is fighting back and giving it to the media and the Obama campaign!!!!

remember at the end….

WE ARE ALL JOE!!!

I AM JOE!

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:45 pm 344. Zeno:

I’m tired of these obamists.

It’s even pointless to try to argue with them, because…

…from my experience, they don’t really understand what they are saying… They are just repeating slogans that they’ve learned… But there’s no real thought there… Nothing at all. “Change” yadayadayada… “Hope” yadayadayada.

I’m not originally from the US, so it’s kind of sad to see this once great country going down this way… At the hands of people who really have NO IDEA ABOUT ANYTHING.

Liberals, with all their supposed “nuance”, are really IGNORANT. Really. I have never seen anyone as ignorant about the rest of the world as American liberals (moonbats).

I almost hope Obama wins, because then there is no way that he can fulfill all hopes of his crazy followers, and so after the Big Delusion things can start over (maybe).

Oct 19, 2008 - 9:54 pm 345. Johannes Larsen, New Zealand:

Mate. What an asocial way of thinking. Have you never made bad decisions and needed help from others Mr Navvarrette?
I’m sorry, but that’s the way it should be. Helping each other. And off course if you have taken risks you and made sacrifices to make good business, you will not get taken it all away. Just a few extra % of your top earnings.
I feel sorry for people like you. One day you might need the help and I wish that everybody will turn their back on you and let you suffer.
It is hard to believe that anyone would like to migrate to the US. What a crap society!

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:09 pm 346. epluribusunum:

I don’t understand what the problem is. We have a form of taxation to “spread the wealth around.” It doesn’t matter what many of you think, but a progressive tax system does just that…and omg guess what?!?! WE HAVE A PROGRESSIVE SYSTEM OF TAXATION!!!

More importantly, Mr. Wurzelbacher injected himself into this campaign not by speaking with Senator Obama, or speaking back to him, but by interviewing with the media independently of Mr. Obama. Wasn’t it Mr. Wurzelbacher who said, on his own time I might add, that he now wants to get rid of social security?!?! What’s next – the eradication of public education?!?! Regardless of whether or not Joe the Plumber is licensed or not, one thing is for sure – he does not have the intellectual capacity to try to analyze complex issues on national television. And if he presumes he does, then he deserves the ****storm that’s happening to him presently.

Finally, a little off topic, but what exactly is wrong with a little “socialism?” I have taken note of the comparisons some have made to Stalin and other “evil doers” that the world has seen, but seriously…socialism is not communism (and anyone who thinks so is clearly not thinking independently but rather listening to Fox News or, as of late, the McCain campaign). Have any of you parochial types ever been to another country such as the United Kingdom (where a truly socialized medical system exists) or Sweden? Or is the latter country deserving of damnation because of their abandonment of god, their embracing of homosexuality and their redistributive form of taxation?

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:12 pm 347. Patrick:

I heard Mr Wurzelbacher state Friday morning that it was wrong to propose that a person who was more successful would pay a greater percentage of his income in taxes than the person who was less successful, and that this was, moreover, socialism.  What Mr Wurzelbacher fails to realize is that the richest 10% of the population pay more than 60% of the taxes, and that without the progressive taxation system currently in place, a system he condemns, he would be paying more in taxes than he does now.  The guy obviously hasn’t thought this through.  Good luck to him, though.  By the way, I believe the tax system should be less progressive than it is now, which it will be under John McCain.  I’m in the highest tax bracket, and will benefit from his proposals.  Mr Wurzelbacher is getting a break under the current system, a free ride, so to speak. This should end.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:15 pm 348. fred gill:

The problem is that the highly ideological left wing of the Democratic party is now in the saddle. They never have been before, despite the GOP’s many cries of wolf to the contrary. This bunch enthusiastically embrace the old meliorist notion that you can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs. It’s permissible to destroy a real little guy, or even many, in order to help THE little guy, theoretical and abstracted though he may be. They have in mind a very large omelet and Joe the Plumber is only one egg.

“Lunch bucket” Biden’s snide comment the day after the debate (”I don’t know too many plumbers in my neighborhood who make $250K a year.”) says worlds. The left has never been fond of the lumpen proletariat. They ask too many embarrassing questions and are dealt with accordingly.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:18 pm 349. kay, oh:

Okay, Joe (the guy who will pay less taxes under Obama) asked a question. It was answered by Obama.

THEN the McCain camp tried to make him a poster child for THEIR cause… THAT is why anyone even cared to learn more about “Joe” (not his real name after all)… It wasn’t the Dems that crawled up his but, it was the blogsphere and the media. If you’re going to put up a poster child, of course people are going to want to know more. HAD Joe been what he claimed to be, McCain would be waving him like a flag to this day. BUT now that he’s turned out to be a WHOLE LOT LESS, they’re trying to spin it that the Obama camp is trashing him.

The Obama camp trashed McCain for McCain’s proposed policies, NOT Joe the Plumber.

The INTERNET trashed Joe the Plumber because he is a fraud (when compared to his taped statements).

I’m begining to wonder if Republican’s can even understand spoken english anymore. Its becoming clearly obvious that no one in the McCain camp reads newspapers or the Internet.

OH, and BTW — the US TAX SYSTEM DOES “SPREAD THE WEALTH” and has done it forever. How the heck to you think those roads that you drive on, those schools that your kids attend and that phone line to your house was built? Did you personally pay for them or buy them from the last guy? NO, TAXES paid for them! Are any of you paying the salaries for local police or the military directly out of your pocket each month?

Only uneducated idiots would still be hamering this “spread the wealth” comment. If you don’t like it, go find a country that doesn’t tax its citizens and see how you like living in a mud hut down a dirt road and having to bribe local “officials” to keep your property safe.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:23 pm 350. Trish:

Joe doesn’t pay his taxes now. So why is he worried about paying them in the future.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:32 pm 351. Eric:

The thing that bothers me most about Democrat voters is that they don’t seem to support leaders who actually do the things that they want them to do. For example, a Democrat value is some type of income equality and yet the gap between the rich and poor increased under Clinton and most of the liberal states have a bigger gap between the rich and poor than the Republican states. California, Oregon, and New York are the worst offenders.

And you have been slamming Bush for his pre-emptive strike against Iraq and say that it is a fiasco and yet you support a candidate who want to unilaterally go into Pakistan (the 6th most populated country) because you think that Al queda may be there. Great-that should help their recruiting.

And on the environment, you supported Clinton and vilified Bush but US CO2 emissions increased 18% under Clinton but have stabilized under Bush. Obama doesn’t care about global warming which is why he put of his goal of reducing CO2 by 2050. 2050? What good is that? McCain has a 2012 target. And maybe the market will solve this better than big government anyway.

As to personal liberties, surely you realize that there is a lot of smearing of people who oppose Obama. Surely you do not support this. Surely this is not your values. Obama supports intrusions on free speech such as hate speech. Being against hate speech may sound like a worthy goal to you but it presents an open invitation to government to suppress any speech that is against government. Just because Nixon and others have done it does not make it acceptable.

If Obama does win, please hold him to the values that you hold and not give him a pass because he is a Democrat. And don’t use the excuse that it is OK because Republicans are worse, in your mind. That is a formula for societal melt-down.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:34 pm 352. bobby b:

“I own a small business myself. . . . I’m excited in Obama’s economic policies and overall vision for a stronger and more prosperous America. . . .And I gladly look forward to pitching in for a greater society once I’ve passed several income thresholds. I want to help for a brighter tomorrow. I’m happy that my success can lead to greater opportunity for the many.”
– - – -

You’re a liar, is what you are. Gawd, I’ve seen more bogus “I’ve been a lifelong Republican until today, and I can no longer stomach what my party has done . . .” Yeah, right. DU scripting.

Is your cause so weak you can’t defend it with the truth?

Never mind. You already answered that, didn’t you?

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:36 pm 353. Christine:

Hey everybody,

It turns out that Joe the Plumber, whose real name is Joe Wurzelbacher, is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who is Robert Wurzelbacher? He is the son-in-law of Charles Keating of the Keating Five scandal. Take a good look at these wonderful links below:

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:36 pm 354. Peggy McGilligan:

It’s not that I want to punish your success; it’s just that while you’re out working hard, we’ve got people … who don’t have any money. Now, if you take 16, and divide it by 32, add 9, and square it by the root of the hypotenuse, ah you’ll pay less with my tax plan. Don’t quote me on that, um you might pay a little more; that is unless of course you divide by 6, add 8, and subtract 3. Now ten years ago, if you’d been enrolled under my plan … is it hot out here?

But thanks for the question. Say, I’ve got to get out of here. I’ve got a debate to prepare for. Hey, I respect what you do. Anyway, how many plumbers do you know who make a quarter-million dollars a year? (My plumber does.) Now if Joe the Plumber’s employer gets overtaxed, Joe might lose his job. But for the job Obama wants, he’s got to do more than tackle the local plumber. And, so far he hasn’t done that. Woe be unto the Democrats: the plumbers givith, and the plumbers taketh away, amen. What is past is prologue: http://theseedsof9-11.com

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:39 pm 355. dzounz:

Obama = socialist?
Hmmmm, Reagan’s govt bailing out banks? Very capitalist, let the market sort it out, and “get govt outta the way.”

700 billion (NOBODY can actually say where the figure came from) for honest-to-God capitalism?

Biggest govt (and by govt it is assumed on the taxpayer’s tit, right, military and defense spending IS taxpayer’s tit, ask the Soviets) have been Reagan’s and Dubya’s. So much for socialism.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:41 pm 356. Pinandpuller:

Do you Democrats know that so called “Colonel” Sanders was actually a mere private during his military service? He wasn’t even from Kentucky. You’ve all been duped!

And all of those residents who go by “Dr. Smith” or “Dr. Jones”? They aren’t real doctors either! I hope they didn’t do any work on YOUR pipes.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:55 pm 357. Zeno:

“Have any of you parochial types ever been to another country such as the United Kingdom (where a truly socialized medical system exists)”

I don’t know about Sweden (hopefully it’s better), but I’ve been to the UK, and… National Health Service sucks. To be seen by anyone other than a GP you have to wait months. For a specialized treatment, perhaps years. I didn’t wait.

Oct 19, 2008 - 10:55 pm 358. Zeno:

Really, it’s quite bizarre that leftists want to copy all things that went wrong in other countries. I mean, at least do some research first, right?

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:00 pm 359. knights-tale:

Oh Ruben, the more conservatives like you continue to back these people like Joe the Plumber and Sarah Palin, the more ridiculous you will look when it’s all said and done. McCain made Joe fair game. Then again, I seem to remember that you have has history of defending dubious people. Remember Alberto Gonzales? You defended him and defended him, and a Justice Department report has now said his leadership of that department was inept and possibly criminal. Can we really trust anyone you endorse…? I certainly will think twice.

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:31 pm 360. Jeremy Janson:

“I own a small business myself. . . . I’m excited in Obama’s economic policies and overall vision for a stronger and more prosperous America. . . .And I gladly look forward to pitching in for a greater society once I’ve passed several income thresholds. I want to help for a brighter tomorrow. I’m happy that my success can lead to greater opportunity for the many.”

————————————————-

Think again. His vision will lead to a larger Washington DC and more money wasted on oodels and oodels of Beaurecrats and other nonproductive workers, not too mention a monstorous rate of inflation as the American production rate shrinks and the banking crisis becomes permenant malaise against a lack of available capital for recovery.

If you wanted change, you should’ve encouraged your buddies to VOLUNTARILLY give their time and money, because when government does it the risk-taking and investment necessary to helping the poor help themselves and afford things is discouraged, and enforcing this nonsense requires a massive number of nonproductive workers (beauracrats) who waste nearly all the money put in to the system and deny the rest of the economy their labor and thus a segment of it’s available production.

For example, the welfare system costs $50,000 per person per year but as anyone who is on welfare could tell you, they maybe see $10,000 a year in benefits, and that’s exactly what happens when you try to help the world by the sword and intimidation instead of the heart and the belief and reason of a true individual benefactor.

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:31 pm 361. Johnny K:

You people are dumb. The republicans are running their party into a hole of rhetoric and ignorance. GHW Bush was the last time that the Republican party has had any credibility. Don’t you get it? Don’t tell me that you people are telling these lies and believing them too. Have you forgotten that the last thing you republicans did was to elect the SON of another president? Do you consider that to be American? Really? REALLY?

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:33 pm 362. Gregg:

You are such an idiot. Why isn’t Joe worried about his taxes NOW? His isn’t going to be making $250k anytime soon, and when he does, he’ll have a good accountant like we all do so he can avoid paying any taxes at all. That’s what being rich teaches you.

Use and abuse? There is nothing about the Republican party that should be attractive to Joe… the Dems aren’t going to take his silly gun or force him to root for Michigan instead of Ohio State. Joe is a total idiot who needs to understand if you speak up, you’ll have to put up… the fact that he is a registered Republican, isn’t a licesenced plumber and doesn’t have his son’t immediate interest at heart is the reason he got a media beating. I have to believe that a local Republican had to put Joe up to the Obama question. Given Joe’s already solide Republican beliefs, I wonder why he was at an Obama rally and not out trying to find another plumbing job to benefit his son and his “future business”.

What a joke.

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:33 pm 363. knights-tale:

And all you proudly trumpeting that “I AM JOE,” would you be saying that if Joe had endorsed Obama. Hypocrites, all of you…

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:33 pm 364. Hiking4T:

Eric, you gotta stop getting all your info from the Right Wing websites. As Colin Powell will tell you, Obama never said he wanted to “unilaterally go into Pakistan.” Here’s his exact quote: “”If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.” Typical Republican. You hyperventilate at the very thought of our military using drones to kill Osama bin Laden and high-value al Qaeda parent company targets.

Thankfully our military has been doing exactly what Obama said should be done, using drones to fire missiles and kill terrorists in Pakistan. But I’ll mark you down for being deadset against going after the terrorists who masterminded the killings of 3,000 innocent citizens on 9/11. Guess those websites you’ve been reading forgot about Bush promising to go after any country who provides safe haven for terrorist who are bent on harming US citizens. Where have bin Laden and his sick, twisted cohorts been living the past five years? Pakistan.

Oct 19, 2008 - 11:35 pm 365. James:

“Reagan won in 1980 based on ideas and principles and it didn’t hurt having Carter to run against.

In 2008 Obama will win on technique, that is to say, raising much more money, feeling the pulse of the electorate and saying what they want to here, knowing full well his color is an asset with the liberal elite. ”
Feeling the pulse is how everyone wins, Reagan, Kennedy, everyone. Democratic elite? You mean as opposed to the everymen who run the Republicans? Face it, the GOP is just as dominated by elites – didn’t they just run a wealthy oil heir with a rich and well-connected father? As far as principles, I seem to remember Reagan selling weapons to a brutal and repressive Islamic Iranian regime. If Obama advocated that…let’s not even think about it.

This article asserts a) That Obama and Biden tried to destroy Joe the Plumber. b) That Democrats attacked Joe and c) That Obama’s comment actually might hurt his campaign.

In fact, neither Obama or Biden did anything other than mention Joe briefly, and with no negative words at all. The Democrats have not actually attacked him. Neither Obama, Biden, any of their staffers or any significant Democrats have attacked him. One person suggested he might be a plant for Rove and that’s ridiculous, but one single person does not make a party . If that was true, all Republicans would be like Larry Craig or Bob Ney, which is of course ludicrous. The only people who’ve done digging on Joe have been the media. Blast them all you want, but McCain is also to blame: he was the one who put Joe on the spot.

As for Obama’s comment, since Keating, Rev. Hagee and Liddy haven’t torpedoed McCain, and Ayers and Wright haven’t killed Obama, what makes you think this will do anything?

“Ruben Navarrette Jr. is a member of the editorial board of the San Diego Union Tribune, a nationally syndicated columnist, a frequent lecturer, and a regular contributor to CNN.com.” For all the qualifications, sticking to the facts appears to be beyond you, sir. You should be ashamed of yourself for being another Michael Moore/Rush Limbaugh type who spreads the the many rumors both sides use to generate outrage among their own. It’s a game both wings are guilty of: they try to make their side believe something bad about the other (could be true or false, doesn’t matter to them) while they also attempt to persuade the rest of the US that these rumors could be true. From Salon.com on the left to conservative talk radio, it’s a low and dishonest game. You, Mr Navarette, should be ashamed of yourself.

PS You failed to address all the hardworking poor who deserve more but never get it…or the Bushes of the world who earn nothing but receive everything. Oddly enough one’s level of wealth is not really connected with how much one merits which anyone can see given the high percentage of the wealthy with affluent and educated parents. Social justice is only class warfare if you believe the wealthy actually deserve all they’ve given themselves and believe that the poor deserve whatever they end up with.

PPS Notice how the links here go?

Barack Obama’s War on Black America
by Andrew Walden

Obama’s Meddling Undermines Future U.S.-Iraq Relationship
by Mohammed Fadhil

Obama Sells Out Education to the Revolution
by Mary Grabar

This is a slanted website. Nothing overly wrong with that, just don’t expect reliable information here.

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:05 am 366. James:

Again, the links:

The Democratic Party’s Drubbing of Joe the Plumber
by Ruben Navarrette Jr.

Gore’s Dangerous Call for Environmental Civil Disobedience
by Gal Luft

If you don’t think this website is to stir up outrage, check out the titles.

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:09 am 367. Robin Dicken:

Forget Joe for a minute. Did you see Family Guy tonight? OMFG! Outrageous. It was about Nazi Germany and Stewie and his Dog and some Jewish friend had to mug some German soldiers for their uniforms. When they come out of the alley, Stewie noticed a button on his uniform. IT WAS A MCCAIN/PALIN BUTTON! I can’t tell you how shocked I was! Nazi’s weren’t THAT bad! ROFLMAO

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:17 am 368. Jeremy Janson:

James you idiot every website is slanted.

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:23 am 369. The Democratic Party’s Drubbing of Joe the Plumber:

[...] Pajamasmedia [...]

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:51 am 370. Johnny Smith:

Joe the plumber is no ordinary Joe. He was a republican plant used to try and get the GOP talking points in. Facts: Joe isn’t even a licensed plumber. He’s a handyman who works for a plumbing company. His boss’ company is not for sale and Joe has never asked to buy the company. Joe makes about $40,000 a year and would receive approximately $500 in tax savings under Barack Obama’s plan. Joe is a member of the local republican party and he has a close relative who is the son-in-law of Charles Keating.

Oct 20, 2008 - 1:07 am 371. Frank:

This whole story has no point. Being for the comman man does not imply levelling down to pub-talk. Dislike democrats – fine be me – but lets keep arguments sane.

Joe the plumber was obviously not good informed and attacked Obama on the base of low-level information. What does the bible says about throwing the first stone…

Oct 20, 2008 - 1:08 am 372. Pascuala The Soccer Mom:

Joe the Plumber, doesn’t represent me or anyone who I know.
I am sure there are many other people who fit his social
economic and cultural status, but that is not me. I am OK
paying taxes. I was able to use some of the educational packages brought by the Clinton administration, and today
I pay taxes because I have the education that enables me
to have a decent job. I strongly believe that it is a good
solution and a good way to use my taxes. I don’t think
it is fair that the plumber is used to represent the middle
class average person. McCain’s campaign brought him to the
media exposure, and used him as an advocate of US the average
middle class people. McCain can’t not even put one single
person before his ambitions how does he expect people to believe he would put country first. It is the media who is scrutinizing him not the Obama camp. Stop spreading lies.

Oct 20, 2008 - 1:17 am 373. Matthew Jones:

This is a ridiculous piece. You talk about Joe being the common man but his central gripe is that he should be able to make the extraordinary sum of $250,000 and not pay a decent amount of tax on it (at the margin). He may be a working man but his greed places him against the working man. FDR would have seen this in a minute. That you don’t betrays your fundamentally elitist streak.

Oct 20, 2008 - 1:47 am 374. Jim Treacher:

“Joe the Plumber, doesn’t represent me or anyone who I know.”

Good luck.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:10 am 375. Jim Treacher:

This Keating connection is going to blow the whole story wide open!

One question: How did they trick Obama into going to Joe’s house?

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:14 am 376. An economist:

#54: “For example if you make $249,000 you will pay $89,640 in income taxes alone…taxed at 36% under Obama’s new rates. If you get a $5000 increase in income,…God Forbid, your tax liability at 39%, jumps to $99,060… this net increas of over $9000 combined with your raise, leaves you over four grand in the hole…”

That would definitely be a bad deal if your average tax rate jumped from 36% to 39%. But Obama is proposing to increase the _marginal_ tax rate on the amount of income past $250k by that amount. In your hypothetical, suppose you were making $249,999 and got a $5000 increase in income.

With no change to the law, using, the current 36% marginal tax rate you’d pay $1800 out of your new income in taxes. Increasing the marginal tax rate results only an extra $150 in taxes over and above what you’d already be paying. Is that excessive? Does that seriously reduce your incentives?

Joe the Plumber mentioned that he thought he might be making $275k if he bought a small business. Obama’s plan to increase the marginal tax rate would increase his tax liability by $750 over and above what he’s paying now. That’s not an inconsequential sum for someone who’s just scraping by. But for the Joe the Plumber that amounts to 4/10 of a percent of his take-home pay — less if he has dependents, etc.

Navarette:
“It’s often the case that the not-so-well-off have made some not-so-good decisions and all manner of bad choices, and this sort of behavior should not be rewarded.”

And it’s often the case that the not-so-well-off are that way because their parents were not-so-well-off. There is a ton of economic research showing that a large correlation between the income of parents and the eventual income of their sons and daughters. Alan Krueger has a nice summary of this phenomenon in an article called “The apple falls close to the tree, even in the land of opportunity.”

Here’s a quote to think about: “a child born in the bottom 10 percent of families ranked by income has a 31 percent chance of ending up there as an adult and a 51 percent chance of ending up in the bottom 20 percent, while one born in the top 10 percent has a 30 percent chance of staying there and a 43 percent chance of being in the top 20 percent.”

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:25 am 377. canoer:

Joe got drubbed by the Dems?? How so? It was McCain who trotted him out into public and it was McCain who failed to look into the legitimacy of Joe’s claims, just as McCain failed to do in checking out his VP candidate. McCain is a failure and it is McCain’s campaign mistakes that give us a preview of the McCain administration should he be elected. McCain can’t run his own campaign; how will he run the country?

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:29 am 378. Sheila:

“how does he expect people to believe he would put country first”

LMAO – Pascuala The Soccer Mom, sorry but you’re an idiot. I think McCain proved that a long time ago, with 5 1/2 years in a Vietnamese POW camp. ‘Nuff said

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:53 am 379. Russ:

What’s so completely disingenuous in this whole Joe the Plumber story is how the Republicans never draw a distinction between Income and Payroll Tax. Under the McCain tax plan, those people would be taxed MORE, and thus have less money to work with in building greater wealth. Bad for Joe, trying to buy the things he needs to get bigger and more profitable. Taxed LESS, as under the Obama plan, they would have more money to invest in their businesses or other investments; there, Joe is better off. This is Economics 101. And in Joe’s case, he may be unclear on the difference between gross and net (the firm he works for grosses about $100K; if Joe is paid $40,000, his boss makes something under $60,000, accounting for expenses), which I don’t see GOP operatives going at length to explain.

As for the media drubbing, well, it was John McCain who brought him into the conversation. That’s akin to putting out a press release on Joe and his personal financial life.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:57 am 380. Metoo:

Yeah, Joe, you’re so right. Had it coming, he was wearing such a short skirt, what did he expect.

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:03 am 381. Ed Wallis:

MY, My…weren’t the D’Kos-sack TROLLS busy recently!

Kids, we don’t really pay attention to you non-arguments…you can go back to mommy’s basement and keep playing with oyur Bag o’ Broken Glass….

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:15 am 382. Kipp Osborne:

Sir- who should be ashamed is John McCain for putting Joe’s name in the public arena wothout ever vetting him. It’s McCain who made this man subject to predictable media scrutiny. If there were no democratic party the media would have investigated Joe. That’s what the media does. I AM a blue collar worker. I know lots of plumbers. I don’t know ANY who pull in over $250,000 a year. Why didn’t McCain or his people know Joe’s tale was bogus? Probably because in McCain’s world $250,000 is chump change. So McCain’s whole premise in bringing up Joe blows up in his face when it’s unearthed that under Obama’s tax plam plumber Joe will do a whole lot better than under McCain’s. So what does McCain do– acknowledge his error in not vetting him- in exposing this man to un asked for media attention? No, McCain blames the press, the Democrats, Obama. Shame on him.

And on you too for beating the drum of distraction. Hey buddy, we got REAL problems in this country. We need people in government and in the press who can look the truth in the eye. You’re clearly not one of them.

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:27 am 383. Jeff:

Put uppity Joe in his place. How dare he? Put all the uppity poor in their place, raise taxes! Then we can build our socialist paradise.

How dare a little non-ivy league nobody be uppity with one of the elite. He should accept whatever the party gives him and be glad for it. He had a chance to be on T.V. with the next president of the United States and he wasn’t fawning and groveling. He’d never make it as a lawyer or in media. So raise taxes! Put him in a soup line and he will come back to the party with his hat in his hand. It’s what he deserves!

We (the democrat machine) have to move the money around. Everyone knows that too many people with only the ability to make money has to contribute more so it can be given to the deserving poor who have the real need. So from everyone according to their abilities and to everyone according to their needs. Only members of the elite political class can decide what those needs are. Give up your liberties and we’ll give you free health care and more circuses.

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:32 am 384. patriotic American:

Joe dared to aspire to something greater, rather than just a handout. That is a sin within the democrat party. Unfortunately, 95% of teachers, the press and hollywood agree. They are indoctrinating your children and giving them neither complete information or critical thinking skills. The result wlll be the election of the most liberal, anti freedom, anti American power, president in the history of our country. Maybe after the depression and defeats abroad, this nation will return to its senses. But don’t count on it.

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:38 am 385. Michael Juge:

Man, talk about a bunch of rich cry babies. Look, The truth is that Obama spent an inordinant amount of time on this guy who misrepresented himself in the first place. Joe acted as if he were about to make $250,000 a year and was planning on purchasing his boss’ business and used that false premise to confront Obama on the spot. Watching this on the spot meeting, it seemed like Joe ignored EVERYTHING Obama said such as the tax credits per employee and ending the Capital Gains Tax for small businesses. Joe was just concerned for the poor people making over $250,000 and more. I’m in law enforcement. I won’t see $250,000. You talk about Obama wanting to “spread t he wealth” as if it’s the scourge of Socialism. The only scourge of Socialism I have seen has been for the rich and by this past administration. And that totally disturbs me as a former Republican. Joe is no everyman. He does not speak for me. So let Joe continue his love affair with the class that makes fun of him behind his back, because they do. What a dupe.

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:40 am 386. bj:

… “Who is John Galt?”

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:01 am 387. jarod:

OBAMA DROPPING IN POLLS

Colin Powells endorsement is nothing more than another Black politician being pressured by Black community to join the racism this election, just like John Lewis. It’s sad to see these once well respected men throwing all that away to support a candidate based solely on skin color. Let’s not forget POWELL is the one who advised the American People to go to war!!!! Isn’t it funny how Obama has run on the bases he did not vote for the war (because he couldn’t) but has surrounded himself with those who voted for and supported the war like his VP choice???? Obama is too too unstable to be leader of the free world…
DO NOT RISK OUR COUNTRY ON OBAMA

American VOTERS are mad as HELL at MSM Obama cronies! Like CNN & MSNBC! causing the outrage against Obama. they are openly in the bag for Obama, MSM, CNN have jeopardized the security of the American people by deliberating hiding serious facts and associations of Obama. Let me get this straight. A couple of agitated yahoos in a rally of thousands yell something offensive and incendiary, and John McCain and Sarah Palin are not just guilty by association — with total strangers, mind you — but worse: guilty according to The New York Times of “race-baiting and xenophobia.” So lets ask the New York Times to bring up Barack Obama’s real associations — 20 years with Jeremiah Wright, working on two foundations and distributing money with William Ayers, citing the raving Michael Pfleger as one who helps him keep his moral compass (Chicago Sun-Times, April 2004) and the long-standing relationship with the left-wing vote-fraud specialist ACORN — you have crossed the line into illegitimate guilt by association. Moreover, it is tinged with racism.

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:02 am 388. DN:

Give me just one reason why I should be interested in Joe’s bio. He is not running to any office, did nothing remarkable and lives far away from me. I am not interested, and I’m sure he is grateful to me for this.

What I am interested about is the discussion of Obama’s approach to spreading wealth. And that’s what I do not hear from MSM. In any blog this would mean their unability to provide a good answer and automatic banning.

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:09 am 389. anon:

to all the “mccain palin supporters”, i’m of african decent, is it ok for me to date your daughter and marry her? i think you need to ask the same question ruben … case closed!

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:20 am 390. Chuck Henry:

Let’s reason out “The One’s” thinking, spread the wealth around. You are a small business employing several people and earning over $250,000 and “The One” wants to tax you to punish you for earning in excess of $250,000 a year. You decide that you don’t want to pay additional taxes and a annual income of say $249,500 is your comfort level. Layoff your employees, who will have to find another job with less income and benefits especially if your company was a niche specialty firm that required unusual skills in the workplace where will your former employees go to find like employment? Don’t worry “The One” will take care of them. Wake up America, this country is in deep trouble and at no time in it’s history are there two unqualified people running for the highest ego job in the world like we have today.

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:28 am 391. John Reilly:

Have you ever entertanined the possibility that “Joe The Plumber” is shilling for the Republican party? McCain choses Palin as his running mate and this is what you’re writing about? Issues Baby Issues!!!!

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:30 am 392. AFNonline » Blog Archive » We Are All Plumbers Now!:

[...] article by Ruben Navarrette Jr., “The Democratic Party’s Drubbing of Joe the Plumber” sums it up as [...]

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:52 am 393. joe:

it is really irrelevant whether joe the plumber is really a plumber or that his middle name is joe or that he owes back taxes. what is relevant is that he asked a very legitimate question, to which obama answered without really thinking how the democrats would want him to answer. he keeps calling his plan “tax cuts”. a real tax cut would be to lower the tax rates for middle class. this would give them more money every week in their paychecks. to have to wait an entire year until the government decides how much it will give you, if anything, is not a tax cut, it’s not even a tax break, it’s a government handout. joe the plumber mada a comment in one of his interviews saying that, whose to say that in 3 months or next year or whenever, the democrats decided that $150,000 is too much, or $100,000 is too much. Who are they to decide who is “rich” when they’re making millions off the backs of all the everyday joes working their butts off.Has anyone wondered yet why so many rich politicians (democrats) and celebrities favor obama’s tax plan. its because they won’t be affected by it. they are not going to spread their wealth around, just yours. asking politicians to vote for a plan that will raise their taxes and cost them money is like asking them to vote against their own pay raises. think about it america

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:53 am 394. Polls?:

389. jarod:
OBAMA DROPPING IN POLLS
Colin Powell’s endorsement is nothing more than another Black politician being pressured by Black community to join the racism this election, Let’s not forget POWELL is the one who advised the American People to go to war!!!!
OBamba now has a 5 point lead with 2 weeks.

Many polls suggest he needs at least an 8 point lead to cover the so called ‘Racists’ voters.
Could it be that those who are not ‘Racists’ are now changing their minds?

I know I did!

Oct 20, 2008 - 5:17 am 395. slip up:

393. John Reilly:
Have you ever entertained the possibility that “Joe The Plumber” is shilling for the Republican party?
The man is out playing football with his son, in his own yard, and a famous black man running for president walks into his driveway to answer his questions.
Now “Joe the Plumber” is as famous as Obama and turns out he is a Republican.
LOL

Talk about Shiiten in your own nest!

Bwahahah

Oct 20, 2008 - 5:28 am 396. Bilwick1:

The negative reaction to Joe, here on thhis message board and elsewhere, reminds me why so-called “liberals” could more accurately be called “Welfare State Tories.” You can almost see them peering down at Joe through theur lorgnettes: “Why, those insolent peasants! Why don’t they just obediently pay their taxes, keep silent, and let their betters govern?”

Joe is William Graham Sumner’s Forgotten Man:

The type and formula of most schemes of philanthropy or humanitarianism is this: A and B put their heads together to decide what C shall be made to do for D. The radical vice of all these schemes, from a sociological point of view, is that C is not allowed a voice in the matter, and his position, character, and interests, as well as the ultimate effects on society through C’s interests, are entirely overlooked.* I call C the Forgotten Man. . . . [Modern-day "liberals"] are always under the dominion of the superstition of government, and forgetting that a government produces nothing at all, they leave out of sight the first fact to be remembered in all social discussion — that the state cannot get a cent for any man without taking it from some other man, and this latter must be a man who has produced and saved it. This latter is the Forgotten Man.”

*Of course, in this case, Joe’s position, character, etc. are not being overlooked, but being attacked, in retaliation for Joe’s temerity in raising an objection to being “C” in Sumner’s forumlation, and in particular for being heretical enough to question the Obamessiah.

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:06 am 397. Ed Wallis:

…LOOKIE OVER THERE!

IT’S A SHINY PENNY!

A PENNY!

NO! NOO!!! Don’t listen to Obama himself saying SPREADING THE WEALTH IS GOOD FOR EVERYBODY…that sounds too much like SOCIALIST POLICIES!!!

LOOK AT McCAIN! LOOK AT PALIN!!

LOOK AT MR. JOE-OBAMA-CAME-ON-TO-MY-PROPERTY-AND-ALL-I-DID-WAS-ASK-HIM-A-QUESTION-WURZELBACHER!!!

IT’S ALL THEIR FAULT! THEY MADE OBAMA SAY IT..BUT HE DIDN’T EVER SAY IT, SO JUST BELIEVE THE MSM!
__________________

Hey, “384. Kipp Osborne,” we get your point: you don’t want people to see Obama for what he is, for what he says, for what he believes.

YOU TOO ARE A CHARLATAN. …whether you are “blue collar” or not (Party-wise, for sure…).

If you were genuinely worried about someone NOT receiving sufficient “critical examination” before the election, you would be screaming from the rooftops about ZerObama getting a free pass: his writing history? his work history? to name but a few…

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:12 am 398. Ed Wallis:

To “391. anon”:

Based on your poor grammar alone, NO.

A silly question deserves a silly answer.

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:15 am 399. The Democrat Party's Drubbing of Joe the PLumber - Page 2 - Debate Politics Forums:

[...] Posted by DarkWizard12 Pajamas Media

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:20 am 400. Lena:

I will tell you one thing – I wouldn’t dare to have an opinion unless it parrotted what Obama says. God almighty, we have lost free speech. This isn’t a free country anymore. Welcome to Cuba.

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:38 am 401. Bilwick1:

I hope Joe is prepared for his tax audit when the Chosen One sics the IRS on him the day after the investiture.

I, for one, bid welcome to the coming Thugocracy.

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:50 am 402. Eric:

It is not a war on Joe but rather, an effort to un-earth the facts behind the story. The problem is not with Mr. Wurzelbacher, it is with Mr. McCain who created the “Joe the Plumber” persona out of whole cloth. I understand that Senator McCain is trying to illustrate his policy differences with Senator Obama in a dramatic fashion but, it is important that he lied about the facts. This should be distressing to Republicans because they previously took such pleasure in attacking Al Gore for mangling facts and details in a story or in commentary that was otherwise true. Actually, although it amounts to hypocrisy, this is an understandable mistake because the Republican Party only discovers citizens like “Joe the Plumber” during election cycles forcing them to create characters to demonstrate their concern for the dreams and fears of, well, “Average Joes.”

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:06 am 403. AVR:

It was McCain who pulled Joe out and pushed him onto the Media, If you recall, he appologized to Joe, on Letterman, and even tried to invite Joe out to campaign as a “Symbol” that he understands to working man.

We have a $480 billion deficit, crumbling infrastructure and decaying education system. How do you propose that these issues get addressed. For those of you that say cut spending, what exactly would you cut. Earmarks are $20 billion, you have $460 billion to go.

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:26 am 404. FLwoman:

SPREADING THE WEALTH AROUND???? Thanks Joe for asking that question, now I know what Obama is all about: SOCIALISM.

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:30 am 405. HK:

It’s amazing that it took so long and exposure to Joe The Plumber for the American public to realize Obama’s “Spread the Wealth” socialist agenda. If you did the slightest amount of reading or research you found Barack Obama’s roots in the New Party (SOCIALIST) in Chicago. You read his racial and socialist leanings in Dreams From My Father & The Audacity of Hope – his life struggles – more appropriately MEIN KAMPF volumes 1 & 2. Can you think of any 3 word phrase beginning with “Spread…” which benefits the recipient? When he strips the middle class of of their “clingy guns and religion” his thousands of rabid followers will chant O BAH MUH to the tune of SIEG HEIL!

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:39 am 406. Bilwick1:

Way to miss the point of the story, Eric.

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:47 am 407. Joetheteacher:

I agree, the well off have made better decisions than the less well off. The reason that McCain can boast seven homes is that he divorced his first wife after she was crippled in a car accident while caring for their children while he was in Vietnam and married an attractive heiress to a huge beer distributorship. So yes, the wealthy have certainly made better decisions than those who are of more modest means. It would not make sense to reward those who have not such sound decisions.

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:53 am 408. Jim Baker:

to CS the Obama troll,

Adam Smith NEVER advocated that 38% of the workers pay no income tax at all and actually collect checks from the government instead. I believe in a so-called progressive tax, too. But, a situation where we don’t all have to pay our share(even if it is a tiny amount)quickly becomes a tyranny of the majority against their economic betters. And that is what Obama and his lefty friends are advocating in order to win this election. Think about who are the real greedy people. Maybe that is why Joe the VOTER asked his question, eh?

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:55 am 409. Paul From Hamburg:

Matthew Jones:
“He may be a working man but his greed places him against the working man.”
Congratulations. In a string of comments riddled with liberal stupidity, you have my vote for the stupidest. Every “working man” I know is happy to get the largest income they can. Maybe I am wrong, but I don’t recall any union negotiators saying “You know what, our members make plenty of money and they can’t really complain about being underpaid. Let’s just skip the raises in this contract.” On the other hand, I know lots of working men who start their own small business in the hopes of gaining some extra income, large or small.

Also Matthew, you get bonus idiot points for mentioning FDR: “FDR would have seen this in a minute” and then what? Would FDR have ignored the question? Would FDR have called Joe a greedy jerk? Would FDR have told Joe he should be grateful for the income he has and stop hoping a better life?

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:07 am 410. jb:

“Joe the plumber” is like me, a nobody in the LARGER world. Most of us just want to be left alone. His mistake was getting dirty by talking to a politician of another party. I don’t care if this guy is unlicensed (unless he was working for me) or his taxes or his associates, he’s not running for anything. I don’t care about him at all but do wish him well. What I do care about is the phrase “spread the wealth around” and THAT is what we should be talking about not some dude that had the audacity to ask the messiah a hard question. So you liberal A**h*les trashing this guy can just take a hike because your emperor has no clothes and because of “Joe the plumber” we can all see now. Obama = Socialist

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:10 am 411. Bilwick1:

I just recently came acorss this quote by Winston Churchill: “A nation trying to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to pull himself up by the handles.” But Obama can do that, because Obama is magic! Shame on Joe for doubting the Annointed One.

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:44 am 412. chris paul:

obama will tax people like business get their profit tax, with the break even point being relative

and joe the plumber is not a plumber and he doesn’t pay taxes

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:48 am 413. RE:

jb,

Most of us just want to be left alone.

How absolutely true. But that’s the problem with libs/leftists/progressives – they lack the tolerance to allow you to live your life as you see fit. Independent thinking is unacceptable and not to be tolerated. Only correct thinking will be allowed – just visit any college campus for a feel of what the left wants to impose upon the entire nation.

It is this lack of fundamental respect that leads me to believe that civil unrest is coming in the not too distant future.

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:55 am 414. OLDPUPPYMAX:

Jay Brezny, comment #5. Now here is a world class democrat. Belittle someone for wanting to improve his lot. Jay is either a teenager, a fool, or a congenital failure. In any event he is a classic example of an Obama supporter. And you can bet that Jay will be standing in line to suck up the “benefits” coming his way from all of the Joes out there who became successful.

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:55 am 415. Mos:

““It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too”.

Those behind Joe, that must be the employee. Obama want them to earn more than today and to do that Joe has to pay more in taxes? Obama gives with one hand and takes with another and all the liberals is smiling and dancing of joy about this wisdom eh..

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:01 am 416. don:

It’s not illegal to be a racist. Racism is an uninteresting theory explaining human behavior by race; it’s false. Mr. Obama’s minister is a racist.
It’s not illegal to be a Marxist. Mr. Obama is partly a Marxist, and there is some truth in Marxism. In part, Marxism is that interesting theory explaining human behavior by crass material interests.
So during the Vietnam War the military draft created a lot of class conscious Marxists who dodged the draft; to get four year draft deferments, male college enrolments and Marxists graduated skyrocketed, as affluent people who didn’t want to possibly get killed in Vietnam but didn’t want to be called cowards discovered Marxism. The working class army they refused to join was racially integrated, merit based, even demonstrating altruism transcending class, an altruism called false consciousness by those new Marxists who didn’t want to share the sacrifices.
How could Mr. Bill go to Vietnam and fight against his Marxist hero Uncle Ho? Unanticipated by Marx, upper middle class Mr. Bill, Mr. Obama’s home boy, was a practicing Marxist, bombing and killing working class people to achieve the Marxist utopia, the spread the wealth classless society crap. The New Left Woodstock Nation could have joined up with the Vietcong, their role models, but they chose to stay home, get stoned, and stayed chicken hawks to enjoy the free love scene. Not a Marxist, John McCain is not a member of the Woodstock Nation while Mr. Obama chooses to share elements of the New Left’s fantasy. Because of the racist college/media industrial complex the South Vietnamese lost a country but gained a utopia.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:08 am 417. Big Al:

What was your major in college, Matt, specious reasoning? Obama does not want to punish the wealthy; he wants to return tax rates to where they were during the Clinton era, when the US economy was booming. During the Bush era, the wealthy and big business have had their taxes slashed further, and the result has been the antitheses of Reagan’s discredited “trickle down effect,” to wit, a shattered economy with the highest rate of home foreclosures since the Great Depression, plummeting home values, soaring unemployment, calamitous failures of our biggest banks and brokerages, while low and middle class workers, the intellectual and economic backbone of our economy, have seen their retirement savings wiped out, and their dreams of a secure future shattered. After eight consecutive years of rewarding the rich, of slashing the taxes of the Exxon’s, the AIGs, and the Lehman Brothers of our country, Obama wants to cut taxes modestly for the forgotten, distressed lower and middle class workers. That’s not drubbing Joe the Plumber, that’s fighting for Jane the nurse, for Tom the bus driver, for Sam the taxi driver, for Mohammed the bookkeeper, and for Jose the schoolteacher. That’s not socialism, as the Republic Party and Sarah Palin have claimed, that’s rationalism, that’s compassion, that’s fair. Republicans must remember compassion and fairness, if not reason? It’s taught not only in the Sunday Schools throughout the Bible and Rust Belts, but in the churches, mosques and synagogues throughout of our Great Land.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:11 am 418. b:

One of the aggravating parts of the press cover operation is the flat out untrue claim that “if you are making less than $250K, you will get a tax cut under Obama’s plan”. This is pure Obama campaign snake oil but of course our unbiased press repeats it as fact. Let me dispense with the polemic and engage the facts:

- The claim uses the Clinton tax rates as a baseline. The Bush tax cuts, which actually did lower taxes for everyone, will expire under the Obama administration and people will see their rates go up.

- Obama wants to blow the cap off the payroll tax. Anyone earning north of 90K is going to get hammered by this.

- Obama wants to raise the taxes on dividends and capital gains. Many of us own stocks and not only people making 250K will be affected by this. Not only will you be paying more, but raising these taxes will hurt the stock market and the wider economy.

- Obama wants to raise certain corporate taxes. These will be passed onto consumers and will hurt business during these rough economic times. This means less jobs and less raises for many many people earning less than 250K.

- Obama wants to get to single payer government health care in a piecemeal approach so as to sneak the change through. Whether you agree or disagree with socialized medicine, don’t pretend like it is not going to cost a whole lot more and require a larger chunk of national GDP to be funneled through government coffers.

- Obama wants to impose a redistribution scheme through the apparatus of the federal income tax code. He and the media refer to it as ‘tax cuts’ or ‘tax credits’, but really it is taking money from some people and giving it to other people, aka socialism.

- Further to the above point, Obama says 95% of people will get a tax cut. That’s really quite a thing considering 38% of people pay no income taxes whatsoever, and a significant portion of those already get free money from the government (”earned” income tax credit, etc.). Under Obama it is estimated that, if he had his way, this would rise to more than 50% of people. It clearly is not healthy to have a single party type state where more than half of the people do not share in the burden of all the benefits they are able to vote themselves.

I guess the scary thing for me is that a quite a few people seem to want the above. And I suppose the even scarier thing is that there is another group of people who don’t want the above but have somehow convinced themselves to vote for Obama anyway.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:12 am 419. Eric:

#366, Hiking4T
Actually I got my info from Obama’s website. I guess that I did read between the lines. To me, ”If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won’t act, we will.” means that he would be willing to “unilaterally go into Pakistan.”
So, you support, now, Bush’s campaign to go after terrorists militarily without any concern for international law? Interesting.
Don’t make assumptions. I never said that I supported Bush’s military stikes. You said that you did.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:16 am 420. b:

Response to “An economist”

“Here’s a quote to think about: “a child born in the bottom 10 percent of families ranked by income has a 31 percent chance of ending up there as an adult and a 51 percent chance of ending up in the bottom 20 percent, while one born in the top 10 percent has a 30 percent chance of staying there and a 43 percent chance of being in the top 20 percent.””

If you think it is the government’s job to level these scenarios then you are a socialist or maybe a Marxist, depending on degree. And by the way, if you follow the statistics of your quote out just a handful of generations you can see it’s not quite such a powerful argument and certainly does not require government redress.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:20 am 421. schnargley:

I have uncovered who the real “Joe the Plumber” is. He is not who you think either. Read the shocking story….
http://www.lumpsfromtheleft.blogspot.com

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:25 am 422. Sheila:

schargley – you always make me laugh! Thanks

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:39 am 423. Frank L:

Here are 12 reasons why the Big O will lose come Nov. 4th:

1 – He is outside the mainstream group think.

a. Americans, as a rule, do not subscribe to the gospel of the extreme left OR the extreme right.

b. Most Americans remain centrists and are jealously protective of their guaranteed inalienable rights.

2 – He is THE most liberal (and disingenuous) Senator in the country.

3 – Unanswered questions and deep doubt.

a. Occidental College records—Not released?

b. Columbia College records—Not released?

c. Columbia Thesis paper—Not available?

d. Harvard College records—Not released?

e. Selective Service Registration—Not released?

f. Medical records—Not released?

g. Illinois State Senate schedule—Not available?

h. Illinois State Senate records—Not available?

i. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate—Not released?

j. Record of baptism—Not available?

4 – His “spreading the wealth” Marxist leanings – The mysterious “Frank” cited as a friend and adviser by Obama while he was growing up in Hawaii has been identified as Frank Marshall Davis, a member of the old Moscow-controlled Communist Party USA..

5 – His waffle on direct talks with real and perceived enemies.

6 – A growing concern (even among his supporters) that he will say whatever is necessary but cannot be trusted to do what he says.

7 – His links to unsavory anti-American characters from his formative years from Frank M. Davies to Ayers, to Rev. Wright to Father Phleger et al. all of whom would inevitably have shaped his thinking

8 – The possibility of a total Dem. control of all three limbs of govt. from the Presidency to Congress to the Judiciary violates the Doctrine of Separation of Powers and scares the hell out of voters.

9 – The possibility of Obama being a shady “Manchurian Candidate” working for anti-American causes considering the dubious nature and sources of his campaign funds.

10- Powell’s endorsement and the racial polarization of 96% of African American support for the Big O operating as a poisoned chalice that will unleash a spectacular backlash on Nov.4th.

11- The lib.media bias have got so many Reps. all riled up that, like me, they’d be dragging every pal, relative and next door neighbor to the polls come Nov. 4th

12- The seemingly habitual trait of the Democratic Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on election day!

On Nov. 6th I’d be throwing a party to toast the end of the biggest threat to American sovereignty since 9/11! All of you’re most welcomed to join in!

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:52 am 424. jb:

Thanks schnargley, I spilt my drink laughing at that.

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:09 am 425. don:

Actually, Colin Powel just did McCain a favor. The general, a republican, just legitimated voting for transformational racial reasons. If the Hollywood left were smart, they would have Harry Belafonte, famous for calling Colin a “house negro,” on Opra, counter punching, complaining that Mr. Obama is an “uncle Tom.” That would make Joe the plumber feel better. Identity politics is great when you can sell nation building in chicago rather than Kabul, although the heroine ends up in the same place anyway. Actually, legalizing dope and ending the war on drugs is not such a bad idea. More Afghan dope, tax it, more ODs, fewer idiots; priceless. The counter insurgency problem is solved.

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:29 am 426. Greg:

Obama didn’t say anything negative about Joe the Plumber, who, if you forget, is on the national stage because Obama spoke with him. Republicans across the board pay lip service to “average Joes” but don’t actually support them. Get it together, man!

Obama is the best candidate for the U.S. since FDR, which is a very long time ago. He’s not a Muslim or a terrorist, or a socialist (jeez, get over yourself. As if socialism would ever work in the U.S.)

Obama / Biden.

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:52 am 427. JD:

Stop whining “Socialist”. You are embarassing republicans:

http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/677zpejl.asp?pg=1

Oct 20, 2008 - 11:11 am 428. jb:

Greg:
“Obama is the best candidate for the U.S. since FDR”

That is not exactly a good thing.

“Obama didn’t say anything negative about Joe the Plumber”

No, that’s what his rats are for.

“As if socialism would ever work in the U.S.”

Couldn’t agree more. To bad the Country would have to find out the hard way.

Oct 20, 2008 - 11:14 am 429. Ed Wallis:

You guys should all support Obama. I think he is more qualified than McCain period.

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:07 pm 430. Cy:

Obama is an expert at covering his tracks from his associations with unrepentant terrorists and race baiting zealots to an unverified birth certificate to his non- release of school and medical records to his support of a Marxist style socialist agenda. One thing seems to be clear out in the open though and is a most persuasive argument for not believing Obama’s tax promises. ALL THE UBER ELITE SUPER RICH CELEBRITIES ARE SUPPORTING OBAMA. Hellooooooooo!!! I don’t believe for a milli-second they are all gung-ho about paying taxes of 50% because they love all the Obama/Pelosi/Reid redistribution plans. Their accountants will sock away all of the uber rich fortunes (Buffett, Oprah, WEALTHY CELBRITIES ad nauseum and now Powell on the OBAMA GRAVY TRAIN FOR THE RICH AND FAMOUS) in untouchable accounts and the Obama/Pelosi/Reid tax and spend policies will ultimately be paid for by hardworking middleclass Americans, just as they plan, to turn us all into socialist drones to be at the disposal of the scheming liberal elite. The real mystery is how OBAMA has managed to mesmerize so many with such an obvious ploy to destroy the USA.

Oct 20, 2008 – 12:04 pm

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:15 pm 431. Cy:

Greg you got that right socialism won’t work in the USA (or anywhere else for very long, for that matter.) But if you think Obama’s strategy of “redistributing the wealth” is not socialism YOU FREAKING NEED A DICTIONARY!!! And OBAMA COUPLED with the PELOSI/REID DEMOCRAT CONGRESS WILL BE SOCIALISM ON STEROIDS!!!

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:31 pm 432. Bad Liar:

If you look and listen just a little carefully to the exchange between Obama and Joe the Plumber it is very clear that Joe is proposing a hypothetical question to Barack but doesn’t want to appear like the working class slob that he is so he lies about his true relationship to his employer. If he were in the position to actually purchase his bosses business his conversation with Obama wouldn’t be stilted and general but rather specific and detailed. To anyone who has sat across the table from a guy trying to figure out what cards he hold – like at a poker table or a business negotiation – you can spot a bluff if you know what to look for, and this guy, Joe, was lying through his teeth. He had a junk hand. I hear Obama’s a good poker play and I’m positive he spotted Joe’s bluff. But in politics you can’t call a voter’s bluff and take ‘em for all they got because you risk looking mean. Barry’s too smooth to take the bait from this rookie.

sent from: fav.or.it [FID2597721]

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:36 pm 433. Bad Liar:

Glancing up the list for a moment I spotted this nugget of stupidity:
“9 – The possibility of Obama being a shady “Manchurian Candidate” working for anti-American causes considering the dubious nature and sources of his campaign funds.”
I don’t want to outline the entire plot of this movie, “The Manchurian Candidate,’ but I will give y’all the thumbnail: An American soldier is captured by Asian communists and brainwashed to do their bidding when he is released from captivity and returned to the United States. That’s not Barack Obama’s story, THAT’S JOHN McCAIN’S STORY. When you make comparison you really should know what the hell you’re talking about.

sent from: fav.or.it [FID2597993]

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:47 pm 434. s. finley:

Wow, nice job, Ruben. Spoken like a true talking points dispenser.

I guess it doesn’t bother you or any other Republican dumbsh$% that “Joe the Plumber” has been exposed as a fiction, and a good one, perfect for the modern Republican image.

Here’s a guy who’s not even really a plumber, in the eyes of the state anyway. Why? Licensing is too much “government on the backs of the little guy,” maybe? Or maybe “plumber” was part of a media tag when he didn’t really mean to call himself a “plumber” per se? Doesn’t matter to McCain, his surrogates, and his supporters. All Joe has to be is a blank screen onto which dying Reaganism can project itself.

And with the tax lien, Joe looks a lot like one of those guys who thinks you can run a government for nothing. Part of the something-for-nothing crowd. Or maybe it’s just that he thinks being governed at all is a bad idea. Thinks you should pay for safe food and drug standards and for the interstate highways he travels on. Maybe a military for him to cheer for, like it’s all a college football game. Maybe safety standards for cars so his kids don’t get killed in a fender-bender.

Yeah, all those are good things, and the rest of us ought to pay for them. But Joe? He’s gonna get out of that if he can.

Gosh, Joe’s kind of a maverick, ain’t he?

So what does Joe do if his customers come in and want him to do some unlicensed plumbing work for them, but they want it for free? If he did this with his own customers, he’d go out of business.

Hey, I want something for nothing too. I want to get a Volvo V70 for five bucks, and I’m really irritated that it’s going to cost me more than that. I think I should get the car and keep almost all of my money, and I consider it repressive that I can’t do that. I think I’m gonna revolt. Like a taxpayer revolt, but for a car. You know what I’m saying. I’m a maverick kinda guy too.

Oh, and apparently he and McCain’s supporters think he’s “middle-class” and “just a regular workin’ guy” if he eventually makes over $250K a year. Kind of reminds me of an average hockey mom I know in Alaska who has a million dollars in assets and another million favors out to cronies.

And he’s all weepy because he might actually have to pay taxes on that $250K-plus, if he ever makes it. Let me see if I can work up some friggin’ sympathy. Just give me a few minutes. I’ll have it right out.

As it turns out, of course, he’s actually not making more than that $250K anyway. So, in fact, Joe the Freakin’ Fictional Plumber would get what immoral leftie Obama supporters call a “tax cut.”

Oops.

Oh, and all that stuff about him just asking an honest question? Not so much. He says Obama’s tax plan “infuriates” him. Not to be too critical of Joe, that paragon of everything that’s right about America, but that statement seems to me to indicate a certain degree of pre-existing opinion.

And he’s against Social Security, too. Wonder why McCain doesn’t let his crowds know about that? I think he ought to go straight to Florida and make that the centerpiece of his rallies there.

And to cap it all off, JTP apparently referred to Obama as a tap-dancing Sammy Davis Jr. (Hey, wasn’t it John McCain who just got through being so righteously offended at the connotation of racism in John Lewis’s suggestion that his campaign engaged in the same kinds of tactics for which George Wallace’s campaign was famous?)

So, you see, it doesn’t matter that Joe actually is a fraud, a tax evader, possibly a racist, and certainly not just an innocent fella out there asking questions. It doesn’t matter that therefore, all this stuff the McCain campaign has projected onto him is meaningless–poor working stiff just out to make his life better, and that Islamic terrorist-loving leftie Obama is going to crush his soul with taxes.

No, all the Foxies want to do is to hold on to that image. Desperately. They really thought they had something there, and they’re not letting go of it. That’s what happens to the religiously ignorant when their icons fall.

Oct 20, 2008 - 12:59 pm 435. Dave Surls:

“Would FDR have ignored the question? Would FDR have called Joe a greedy jerk? Would FDR have told Joe he should be grateful for the income he has and stop hoping a better life?”

Nah, he would have had Joe shipped off to a concentration camp at Manzanar.

Oh, I forgot, FDR only had citizens who were of Japanese descent sent to Manzanar.

Never mind.

Oct 20, 2008 - 1:48 pm 436. Carlos:

I hope that we are able to come together as Americans after this. I look at the situation and I see a whole bunch of he said she said going on and no real solutions. While I hate the idea that a group that is unassociated with Obama’s campaign has attacked Joe the Plumber, I am more disturbed by the tone of McCain and Palin themselves. McCain hate Obama. It obivious when you look at him in the debates… the eye rolling, huffs and puffs, etc. Palling around with terroists. Exageration at best. How about attacking Obama for a lack of experience then trying to convince the public that Palin is more experienced when Dems call the republicans on it. What about the accusation of sexism against Palin? Go back and look at the tape. The very same people crying foul now, committed them against Clinton, including Palin herself. The attacks on Obama’s character. I see, a family man with a dedicated wife raising their children to be well spoken well behaved citizens. A community organizer who fight for the little man must be awful. Charges of elitism, common. The man was raised by his grandparents after his mother died or cancer. He worked his way through school and succeeded by pulling himself up by his boot traps. Instead of working ofr himself, he gave back. I will give you this, he is elite in that he has accomplished much. Simple attaining an elite status does not make him elitist. He is just smart. Before getting on that moral high horse, look in the mirror and make sure your house is not glass.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:01 pm 437. jb:

s. finley, That’s the funniest B.S. I’ve read all day.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:09 pm 438. Dave Surls:

“You guys should all support Obama.”

Sure, I’ll support Obama, but only on days when the sun rises in the west.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:21 pm 439. don:

So Obama’s the best thing since FDR. At least FDR won a war. The republicans won the korean war, after truman blew it. Republican Nixon won the Vietnam War after Great Society Johnson blew it, and in spite of a democratic congress. Then Senator Biden and democrats ended all financial support for the South Vietnamese, and they were promptly over run by North Vietnam backed by China and the Soviet Union. Desert Storm, ditto, republican war victory. Iraq Two, ditto, republican victory, in spite of democrats. I really look forward to an Obama game changer, but I have to wonder with the movie “W” coming in fourth ahead of “The Secret Life Of Bees” and Beverly Hills Chihuahua.” If I were an Iraqi, or living in Afghanistan, or anywhere on the periphery of Russia, I would be nervous in the service. PS: I don’t count the Clinton illegal air war with Serbia, since it wasn’t authorized by the UN or congress.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:27 pm 440. Tim H.:

Ruben, I have no problem with Joe voicing his views. My problem with Joe is how Joe tried to portray himself to the media after the debate. If you listen to Joe voice his views after the debate. It’s obvious the guy is a Republican. Hey that’s great. Fine with me. You think McCain didn’t vet this guy’s views before bringing him up in the debate? I mean c’mon. Joe though tried to portray himself as this non partisan average guy who had a problem with Obama’s tax plan. I saw the video. Considering Obama was out in the street when Joe asked his question. I thought Obama gave him a pretty good explicit answser to Joe’s tax question. However Joe went ABC and claimed that Obama danced around the question like “sammi davis jr.” Then Joe sounded like a Republican talking point. “Obama sounds good but what does he say.” “Obama has not been in senate long.” Blah Blah… Don’t take people for fool Ruben. Bottom line Joe is just another stunt used by McCain. Why am I even responding. Get use to PRESIDENT OBAMA Ruben. It’s coming in January.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:33 pm 441. Tim H.:

Hey bilwick1 I am a blue collar worker and I make more money than Joe. Forgotten man!! What the hell. As a buddy of mine commented. “This guy (Joe) hasn’t got any money.” What? That 2 man company is worth $250,000 a year? Gimme a break. As for criticism. HEY Joe decided to confront Obama. He wanted and got his 15 minutes. Joe didn’t have to give everyone his views. Forgotten man!! What a joke. This is best thing ever happened to Joe. I am not going to burst his dream. Me? I am a realist. I make more money then Joe, don’t have alimony and I know I will most likely never make $250,000 a year. But I am sure the 5% of country who do appreciate Joe looking out for them.

Oct 20, 2008 - 2:43 pm 442. s. finley:

j.b., what’s B.S. about it? Let’s see what you say is nonfactual. (I know facts don’t really matter when it comes to loyalty, but anyway, let’s try just for fun.)

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:27 pm 443. Ed Wallis:

“Tim H. 2:43pm” –

You have some things seriously mixed up.

Mr. Wurzelbacher was on his own yard, playing with his child, when Obama came to him, and the conversation ensued. Mr. Wurzelbacher asked a question, and Obama responded with a near-boilerplate socialist response about “spreading the wealth” being “good for everyone.”

The rest of your post is so twisted, all I can add is that you seem utterly obsessed with the messenger (Mr. Wurzelbacher), that you miss the message (Obama’s response).

Oct 20, 2008 - 3:46 pm 444. Ed Wallis:

Somewhat OT folks, but look at what Obama’s house thugs are up to again…

http://blog.heritage.org/2008/10/20/obama-moves-to-silence-all-acorn-critics/

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:16 pm 445. SarahBiggestFan:

423. schnargley,

I find most of your parody on this website to be both, stupid and non-comedic, as you probably are yourself. You are the type of Right Wingnuts that I despise with a passion. Using your stupidity and a sarcastic sense of humor from your inbred parents. Ask mommy and cousin daddy why they instill these stupid sense of humor on you.

Oct 20, 2008 - 4:16 pm 446. pat:

Socialism & Wealth Redistribution: Michelle Obama Spent $447.39 on an Afternoon Snack
AudacityofHypocrisy.com ^ | 10/19/2008 | admin

Posted on Monday, October 20, 2008 17:38:56 by safetysign

According to Michelle Obama, “The truth is, in order to get things like Universal Health Care and a revamped Education System, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of the pie so that someone else can have more.”

Oh, really? Who is the someone who gives up a piece of the pie?

On October, 15,2008, Michelle Obama spent $447.39 on room service (for 2) at the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel for an afternoon snack of Lobster Hors D’Oeuvres ($50.00), Whole Steamed Lobsters (100.00), Iranian Osetra Caviar ($150.00), and Bollinger Champagne ($44.00)

See the Michelle Obama wealth redistribution quote below, and the enlarged receipt for the sumptuous snack, signed by Michelle Obama.

Sounds exquisite, doesn’t it, if your culinary tastes run to lobster, caviar and champagne? But this insight into the Obama lifestyle makes us wonder how often Joe ‘the Plumber’ Wurzelbacher of Toledo, Ohio and his family eat lobster with all the trimmings.

How often does the average person eat like this? Or is it only those who make $250,000 or more? Or only the 95% of the population laboring under the illusion that they will get tax breaks under the Obama Wealth Redistribution Plan?

Oct 20, 2008 - 5:58 pm 447. anon:

To “Ed Wallis”:

based on your pointed head, you just burst your
“pro-america” bubble.

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:23 pm 448. schnargley:

I find most of your parody on this website to be both, stupid and non-comedic, as you probably are yourself. Right Wingnuts that I despise with a passion.. your stupidity and a sarcastic sense of humor from your inbred parents. Ask mommy and cousin daddy why they instill these stupid sense of humor on you.(SarahBiggestFan)

Was it something I said? :0l

Dr. Lumplevin

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:43 pm 449. hp:

ajacksonian: “That effort to ridicule and demean Joe is a direct attack on the blue collar and working middle class of America. They have just been told that they don’t deserve to be listened to, to be treated as fellow citizens and if you have the temerity to ask a question of a politician you will be raked over the hot coals, your life questioned, your skills doubted, and political pressure will be brought to make your life a living hell.”

welcome to my world. had to go incognito in order to effectively educate. otherwise there is no doubt they would have probably actually shown up on my doorstep in an effort to intimidate. when i got “uppity”, they made a few overt moves to make it seem visually i fully supported obama. ha.

keep repeating to everyone who will listen: they DO NOT respect the individual.

at all.

AT ALL.

if you dare to differ to them as yourself, BE PREPARED to face outright hate in the rhetoric you receive back. it is as if they have been trained that aggressively abusive bullying changes people’s minds.

Oct 20, 2008 - 6:55 pm 450. Hola:

Let’s each send Joe a check for 10 bucks so he can pay his back taxes. I’m serious. The guy needs to be compensated for all the crap the dems are putting him through. He’s in Holland Ohio.

Oct 20, 2008 - 7:50 pm 451. Anon.:

Wow. You guys are pathetic.

So we discover that “Joe the Plumber” is an unlicensed plumber, operating illegally, who’s been avoiding paying his taxes. He wants to buy the plumbing business (which he can’t). The plumbing business doesn’t have a net income of $250,000 a year — the man doesn’t know the difference between gross and net. He would in fact pay lower taxes under Obama than under McCain whether or not he bought the plumbing business.

In other words, he’s ignorant and incompetent. I feel sorry for the guy — it must suck being ignorant and incompetent, and borderline criminal — but he’s living evidence that McCain voting is backed mainly by ignorance.

Oct 20, 2008 - 8:37 pm 452. Russian Bear:

Joe just tried to show off. His question to Obama was a frivolous one. He asked about unrealistic, not applicable to himself situation. There is such a psychological type. Some people like to ask questions just “to get” the opponent. Of course 250K gross is about 130K net or even less depending of the claimed expenses. Obama is not going to take the wealth from “the rich” and give it to “the poor”. In many countries the state subsidizes health insurance for all people and higher education for students from the families with insufficient income. It is already is taking place in the USA like Medicaid for low income families and government grants for college students. It is not socialism yet. The very “Joe the Plumber” will only win if he gets self-employed and not paying a VERY expensive(about $600.00 per mo)health insurance. The alternative for Joe would be to live a risky life without health insurance (like 47 mln. Americans do) and God forbid, to sell his dream-business to be able pay out his huge medical bills for hospitalization and treatment, if God forbid, something bad happened to his health.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:35 pm 453. venividivici:

In other words, he’s ignorant and incompetent. I feel sorry for the guy — it must suck being ignorant and incompetent, and borderline criminal — but he’s living evidence that McCain voting is backed mainly by ignorance.

Anon, I can guarantee you that I’m better informed than you about history, economics, politics, taxes, and just about every other topic under the sun. In fact, I guarantee that the only thing you’ll know more about than I do is whatever technical specialty you have, to the extent that flipping burgers is a technical specialty, and I support McCain over Obama with pleasure.

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:39 pm 454. Vote Colborne 2016! » McCain:

[...] is starting to move again.  Obama is fumbling the ball.  Texas’ coaching staff is too busy focusing on the fans and not enough time on the field.  No, Nevada’s chances aren’t good, but they’re [...]

Oct 20, 2008 - 9:50 pm 455. venividivici:

It’s also fun to see the one’s complaining about Joe’s goal of making over $250K/year saying “I’ll never make that much”. Well, sure, because you probably aren’t trying hard enough to begin with. I started working at 12 years old, cutting lawns with my father for a couple of bucks a lawn and now I am in a job that, when all is said and done, will pay me well over $250K/year before I’m 45. If you take yourself out of the game, of course you’re not going to win it. “Joe”, or anyone really, could come up with a good idea to improve his ability to serve customers (e.g., a new tool to extract items lost down pipes or something) and, using that one idea, make over $250K easily.

Liberals lack almost all creativity when it comes to business, which is why I think they treat business as if it were all some grand conspiracy to keep down “the little guy”, when it really, really isn’t, except in rare cases. Having been involved in board-level discussions at some of America’s biggest companies, I should know.

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:16 pm 456. Jeff:

This is just a fictional story that I have created to bring light to the time that we are in now —

Two men from the year 3000 decided to take their spacecraft on a trip back in time to learn the events of the past.

One man asked the other, “Steve, which part of history should we go back to?”
So Steve replied, ”Let’s go back to 2008, John. It was a very significant time in our history. This was the time when our country was at the crossroads of deciding our future and the end results of their decisions are what we are living with now. I heard that our country was at its most crucial time because it was economically crumbling at the core of its foundation.”
“Fair enough Steve, let’s go back to 2008,” John agreed.

So they both entered their spacecraft and took a trip back to 2008. Within light speed they zoomed across time going back to 2008 and soon appeared above The White House in Washington DC, up in the sky just hovering in stealth mode.

Steve turned to John and said, “Let’s turn on the screen and watch all the events of this time starting back from the day America was attacked on 9/11/01, John.”
So John turned on the screen and the two watched all of the events starting from 9/11 to the current year that they were in, which is 2008. While they were watching all of the events of 9/11, the Afghanistan War, and the events of the Iraq War up to the current time that they are at, which is November 4th of 2008. They paused the screen and looked at each other, just scratching their heads.

John looked at Steve and commented, “Steve, these events are devastating after 9/11. We went into Afghanistan which was right but everything shows that we had no reason to go into that other country called Iraq. There was so many of our soldiers and people that died in this carelessness.”
So Steve thought about it and replied, “It appears that you are right, John, but the people of America seem to stand with this President. Now let’s un-pause the screen and watch this 2008 election and the 4 years that follow this. Then we go back home.”

So John un-paused the screen and the two watched the 2008 election and the 4 years that followed this election and went back to their own time, which is the year 3000.

John looked at Steve and commented, “This trip gave me a new view of humanity, Steve. I don’t understand why we continue to make the same mistakes over and over again. That white man was just a continuation of that last President but our ancestors voted for him anyway because America could relate to him more. They voted for him because he looked similar to the majority of them but denied the other candidate simply because he looked different. Although that other candidate looked different, he seemed to want to help the country turn around. He seemed to look forward to the future and had futuristic ideas of not just transforming America for the better but creating a unity in the world. He seemed to be a man of the world and the world seemed to view him very favorably.”

So Steve answered, “I understand how you feel and I share the same sentiments, John. At that time in history, human mentalities had not transcended beyond fear of the different and the unknown. The human mentalities at that time had not transcended above and beyond the differences in color, creed, religion, and cultural backgrounds of this world. Because of this ignorance, our society is what it is today. It’s the year 3000 and wars are the only one thing that seems to be unable to evade humanity. Now, we are crumbling at our feet with all these wars all across the globe. We had a defining movement in history, John. We had a chance to open our minds and hearts to something different and something new, but we, as a collective, blew it. Now humanity is at an endless conflict and I fear that we are meeting our extinction. God help us all.”

Oct 20, 2008 - 10:34 pm 457. Anonymous:

387. Michael Juge:

“Man, talk about a bunch of rich cry babies. Look, The truth is that Obama spent an inordinant amount of time on this guy who misrepresented himself in the first place. Joe acted as if he were about to make $250,000 a year and was planning on purchasing his boss’ business and used that false premise to confront Obama on the spot.”

Joe said, on Sean Hannity’s show, that he discussed with his boss the possibility of buying the business-your evidence to the contrary…

“Joe was just concerned for the poor people making over $250,000 and more. I’m in law enforcement. I won’t see $250,000.”

Your choice of career. I do know of several law enforcement types or firemen who have side-businesses, so I suppose that the potential is there for 250k plus. You could always start a firm to vett random people on the off chance they might have a question for Obama.

“You talk about Obama wanting to “spread t he wealth” as if it’s the scourge of Socialism. The only scourge of Socialism I have seen has been for the rich and by this past administration.”

Republican Amateurs. Just look at Obama and Biden’s charitable giving-that tells the spread the wealth story right there. Look at George Obama-living in a shack on 12 bucks a year. Send your brother a birthday check for God’s sake!

“And that totally disturbs me as a former Republican. Joe is no everyman. He does not speak for me. So let Joe continue his love affair with the class that makes fun of him behind his back, because they do. What a dupe.”

Have fun with the guy who mocks you to your face.

Oct 20, 2008 – 3:40 am

Oct 21, 2008 - 12:07 am 458. Pinandpuller:

387. Michael Juge:

“Man, talk about a bunch of rich cry babies. Look, The truth is that Obama spent an inordinant amount of time on this guy who misrepresented himself in the first place. Joe acted as if he were about to make $250,000 a year and was planning on purchasing his boss’ business and used that false premise to confront Obama on the spot.”

On Hannity today Joe said he discussed buying the business with his boss. Your evidence to the contrary?

“Watching this on the spot meeting, it seemed like Joe ignored EVERYTHING Obama said such as the tax credits per employee and ending the Capital Gains Tax for small businesses. Joe was just concerned for the poor people making over $250,000 and more. I’m in law enforcement. I won’t see $250,000.”

Lots of law-enforcement types and firefighters have side gigs and small businesses that run around their schedules-I bet some of them make north of 250k. Why don’t you start a PI business to investigate the people who don’t throw palm-fronds down for Obama when he’s organizing in their community?

“You talk about Obama wanting to “spread t he wealth” as if it’s the scourge of Socialism. The only scourge of Socialism I have seen has been for the rich and by this past administration. And that totally disturbs me as a former Republican.”

Obama and Biden’s charitable giving says it all for me. Hey Obama-send your brother George a birthday check for God’s sake!

Joe is no everyman. He does not speak for me. So let Joe continue his love affair with the class that makes fun of him behind his back, because they do. What a dupe.

Keep on keeping on with the dudes that mock you to your face.

Oct 21, 2008 - 12:14 am 459. Pinandpuller:

. anon:

to all the “mccain palin supporters”, i’m of african decent, is it ok for me to date your daughter and marry her? i think you need to ask the same question ruben … case closed!

My daughter is 12-you are 6 years too late to marry her Mohammed.

Oct 21, 2008 - 12:16 am 460. Sheila:

Jeff – your story is rubbish

Oct 21, 2008 - 3:02 am 461. Ed Wallis:

“Sheila – 3:02am”,

The “Jeff” to whom you refer is a troll and in no serious manner a “true independent.”

He has posted this and other inanities many times over.

THIS SPECIFIC post he littered PJM with about 2-3 weeks ago; I guess he’s out of new “points”…or at least the site from which he thoughtlessly edits/copies his matter.

I find it best to IGNORE such trolls, “Shiela,” feel free to do the same.
________________________________

Regarding questionable media integrity in this race, this may be of interest to some:

http://www.ldsmag.com/ideas/081017light.html

Oct 21, 2008 - 6:53 am 462. jb:

It’s not about “Joe the plumber”. F##k “Joe the plumber”. It’s about Obama’s answer you liberal idiots. How many times does this need to be said? Nobody cares about who asked the question because it’s about the answer. McCain brought his name up to prove a point. “Joe the plumber” is just a metaphor and that’s all. And 444. s. finley that was B.S. and you know it, or maybe you don’t, I don’t care just do your own research but without your Obamanater glasses on.

Oct 21, 2008 - 7:13 am 463. JD:

As it turns out, republicans are generally afraid of everything: http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/321/5896/1667

It only seems like socialism when compared to the reckless lurch to the right this country has made. The pendulum is merely swinging back towards the center.

Oct 21, 2008 - 9:12 am 464. Jeff:

I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat but a true Independent who believes in facts and really believes in learning the lessons of our history.

So here is a simple fact for America -
1) During Ronald Reagan’s Presidency of 2 terms, between 1981-1989, we were at our economic best in a quarter of a century. We made the right choice in these 8 years as a country.
2) During George H. W. Bush Sr.’s Presidency of 1 term, between 1989-1993, we were at our economic worst in a quarter of a century. We made a huge mistake as a country but corrected it by keeping him in office for only 1 term.
3) During Bill Clinton’s Presidency of 2 terms, between 1993-2001, we were again at our economic best in a quarter of a century, even better than Reagan’s era. We made the right choice again in these 8 years as a country, despite his personal scandals.
4) Now, during George W. Bush Jr.’s Presidency of 2 terms, between 2001-this coming January 20, 2009; we have been at our economic worst in a quarter of a century, even worst than Bush Sr.’s era. We really made a huge mistake as a country on this one by not realizing that the apple really doesn’t fall very far from the tree. Yet we chose this apple again the second time around.

Now, really let this simple fact sink in America and take your time to think carefully this time around about how you want the direction of this country to go.

We made history with Reagan. We then made a mistake with Bush Sr. but corrected history by allowing him to only serve 1 term. We then made history again with Clinton, despite his personal scandals. Now, we have made 2 mistakes with Bush Jr. by allowing him to serve not once, but twice. So my last question to America is, guess which candidate shares the interests of both, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr.? I will let America answer this one. We are much, much smarter as a country to want to make history rather than make mistakes and to suffer yet again from our own mistakes by not using objectivity as our first and foremost agenda.

Oct 21, 2008 - 10:05 am 465. Jeff:

What people don’t understand is why some of us are so against the current Republican ticket, but we have an obligation to fight against history of ever being repeated again. Many of us out here are not fighting for the Democratic campaign but are fighting against an ideology.

1) An ideology that completely mirrors the ideology of this past 8 years.
2) An ideology that recognizes the few while completely disregarding the masses.
3) An ideology that believes in taking military action against Iraq, an incident that is completely unrelated to 9/11, without solidifying our claims beforehand. In the present, we have found no evidence of weapons of mass destructions or a tie to Osama Bin Laden. The devastation of this war has cost us over 4,000 of our brave troops and counting, over 1/2 trillion dollars of taxpayer’s money and counting, and over 1 million Iraqi lives unrelated to the terrorists or insurgency.

Cost of the Iraq War — http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

4) An ideology that still believes that the Iraq War is the right war on terrorism when the Afghanistan War should had been the right war on terrorism, where Osama Bin Laden actually was until he slipped into the mountains and into Pakistan’s territory now. The Iraq War also diverted our attention away from the Afghanistan War. We now have extended our resources in two separate places and have heightened our risk to our troops, our expenses, and creating another dilemma that will take quite some time to finalize. The Iraq War will not go away overnight and it is now our obligation to see it all the way through for God knows how many more years. This has also been the most unpopular war in the eyes of the world’s communities.
5) An ideology that believes that we are at our safest state since 9/11, when a recent terrorist plot was still trying to enter Great Britain’s airports with liquid explosives heading directly to us, but thankfully the plot was foiled. While in Afghanistan, the terrorists are regrouping and strengthening and we have recently suffered another high casualty to our troops yet again within this past month. We currently have the least amount of alliances in the world’s communities due to this unpopular Iraq War. True national securities are the ties that bind us to our world’s communities and the ties that bind them to us.
6) An ideology that vetted one of the most inexperience VP ticket in history, from foreign policies to national defense. If God forbids that anything happens to this President if elected and is stricken with illness, this VP will be running the country. For a more compelling look at Sarah Palin’s VP readiness, please look at these links below —

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loUHRv3ipLE

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/election_2008/2008/09/30/palin_gaffes/

7) An ideology that believes in “the fundamentals of our economy are strong” while we are facing the highest mortgage foreclosure crisis, high unemployment rate, and the largest collapse of our financial infrastructures since The Great Depression of 1929.

This is an ideology that many of us in America are against. Whether this ideology is in the Republican or Democratic ticket is not the main issue but the fact is that America does not want to fall into another 4 more years of devastation. We cannot afford this anymore.

Oct 21, 2008 - 10:07 am 466. Allan Erickson:

Surprised by the tyranny of the Left?

Will we prefer the “calm of despotism” in the words of Thomas Jefferson?

“Posterity, you will never know how much it cost the present generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that ever I took half the pains to preserve it.” John Adams

http://allanerickson.wordpress.com/2008/10/21/will-we-prefer-the-calm-of-despotism/

Oct 21, 2008 - 10:44 am 467. Ed Wallis:

PAJAMAS MEDIA PLEASE NOTE:

The individual identified as “Jeff”

has now posted the same material he littered these web pages with over the last 2-3 months; see posts #458, #466, #467, and compare for yourself.

This is spam and interferes with the ongoing dialogue of this and other threads.

Oct 21, 2008 - 12:01 pm 468. Change?:

Obama is for the middle class, as long as you don’t ask questions and are happy with what he wants to hand out.

Oct 21, 2008 - 7:07 pm 469. nick:

1 fact – joe is not a plumber in TOLEDO

Oct 21, 2008 - 7:54 pm 470. ann:

I can see how Republicans stereotypically sound greedy to Liberals. It’s too bad – some right wingers out there are, but most people I know who have a lot of money (and are Republican) have earned it – and they pay a lot in taxes AND give a lot to charities. These people also attend church and believe in volunteering their time and giving their money to help those in need. I agree 100% that their are many situations when people need to depend on others to take care of them. I think most people – Republicans or Democrates agree. It’s so sad to see the polarization in our country when most of us have the same core values. I think if we all conducted ourselves in the way God wants us to, we’d help each other when needed and we’d step up to the plate – as seen on 9/11. The problem I have is with high taxes on the wealthy is the way the money is spent. I’ve spent time in my life learning about how grants and Federal/state programs are run and it’s not efficient in any way shape or form. When the private sector gets involved with private non profit organizations, they demand careful spending of the money.

Oct 21, 2008 - 8:36 pm 471. kirin jensen:

What is socialism?

Let’s take a look a REAL socialism for a second:

McCain was Senator at the the time of the S&L scandal. Remember the Keating Five? I’m sure Joe the Plumber does. Oops, we’re probably not supposed to mention that. That debacle ended with a billion dollar bailout. Socialism FOR THE RICH.

McCain was a Senator as the current banking debacle took place (gee, you’d think he’d learn from his experiences). His campaign is lousy with lobbyists for the banking industry. The banks get a near-trillion dollar bailout. Socialism FOR THE RICH.

McCain wants to “solve” the healthcare crisis by giving tax credits to people who have Health Savings accounts. Socialism FOR THE RICH.

He wants to privatize Social Security, giving tax breaks to those who do. Socialism FOR THE RICH.

He wants to subsidize private schooling by by using vouchers. Socialism FOR THE RICH.

Hell, I’ll take garden-variety socialism over Socialism FOR THE RICH anyday.

Oct 21, 2008 - 9:06 pm 472. Ed Wallis:

“kirin jensen”,

Thanks for openly acknowledging to everyone here your own socialist leanings in your last sentence,
“Hell, I’ll take garden-variety socialism over Socialism FOR THE RICH anyday.”

I think your keypad stupid button is stuck.

School vouchers have helped ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY the poor, to escape the rotting government-funded “public school system.

Social Security is a government system set up to “help” EVERYBODY…that is, everybody that worked a certain minimum amount in theor lives…something it seems you have not and likely never will.

Health Savings Accounts are generally cheaper to afford, because they have huge deductibles…makes sense especially for younger people…who, again, are usually less wealthy.
(WTF are you thinking?!?…that health care should cost NOTHING to EVERYONE?!?…on what part of Planet LaLa do you reside?!?).

>The current “banking debacle” was created by Pres. Carter’s (DEMOCRAT) Community Reinvestment Act and Pres. Clinton’s (DEMOCRAT) amendments thereto. Add to that the DEMOCRATS in the House and Senate who, over the early 2000’s blocked the efforts of Pres. Bush (REPUBLICAN) and SENATOR JOHN McCAIN (REPUBLICAN) to rein in the dangerous situation with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Again, thanks for acknowledging your own socialist leanings, but I still think your keypad “stupid button” is stuck.

Oct 22, 2008 - 2:29 am 473. Anonymous:

the msm is certainly on defense
I saw CNN and NPR both had ‘experts’ on defining what socialism is and trying to divert the Joe the Plumber event

seems it is resonating big time
Obama’s “Dukakis in the tank” moment

and Mccain is scoring big in swing states with his rebuttals to this

Oct 22, 2008 - 5:55 am 474. tom:

check out this aol poll

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/10/21/hot-seat-socialism-attacks/

McCain says Obama’s policies amount to socialism. Your thoughts

it shows voting by state and the only state not clearly saying McCain’s right is Delaware

looks like Obama has loose lips Joe taking the poll over and over and over

yes – this is resonating with the people!!!

Oct 22, 2008 - 6:35 am 475. ann:

What amazes me is how “big business” and business owners not only create jobs – and in case people have forgotten what that really means: they are putting food on the table for people and helping their employees care for their families.

They are carrying this nation (financially speaking) and I am amazed that people don’t realize this. They pay more in taxes – not only just do to their profits or income, but the % increases as well. Their employees get raises based upon their effort. Just this morning my 13 year old and I were talking and I explained it this way: If she is going to get paid babysitting, and she helps manage her siblings, assist with their homework, follow the rules, provide them with a snack and clean up after, I will not only pay her, but I may even give her a “bonus” for hard work. On the flip side, if she sat up in her room watching TV, she will not get paid (or not as much). When she gets paid, we also teach her the value of money – save some, spend some if she needs to and to give 10% to a charity of her choice.

She researches her options and finds a reputable organization to help kids less fortunate. If she adds taxes to it, chances are great, that money (of her’s that she earned) goes to pay for an inefficient government program. Have you ever really checked out how the government uses our hard earned tax dollars? If they were smarter about it and were accountable, it may make sense. Essentially, I would rather manage where my “tax” dollars are going.

I agree certain programs need to stay in place to care for those who are sick, elderly and poor. I believe the problem in our country is the fact that we have millions of people who turn to addicting habits such as drugs and alcohol and they turn to stealing and violence to feed their habits. Unfortunately this is the kind of situation taxpayers struggle with.

Fixing it starts with solid education and getting back to good old faith based values – when you bring that back and people can turn to faith vs. everything else, you’d have less unwed pregnancies, less drug use, more personal responsibility. All of this pulls up our bottom tier and helps people help themselves. This fighting between parties never accomplishes anything. We have to remember what the ultimate goal is – to come together as a country. If we teach our children “conflict resolution”, we have to demonstrate what that means.

Oct 22, 2008 - 8:13 am 476. Howard:

THE PERFECT STORM FOR A DEPRESSION …
A far left Media …
A far left President …
A far left Congress …
A far left Senate …
eliminates all the checks and
balances that our democracy is based upon.
A vote for Obama is a vote for voter fraud,
a corrupt media, and the road to Socialism.
God Help Us !!!

Oct 22, 2008 - 4:22 pm 477. Change?:

Maybe people finally realized Biden was right a few months ago when he told everyone that Obama was not ready to be president. So now when he tells everyone that mark his words, the world will test Obama if he wins in Nov., and it will not go well in the begining. If Obamas own runnung says he is not ready and it will not be good, what is America thinking?

Oct 22, 2008 - 6:52 pm 478. Mark Richards:

Old Harry Truman is turning over in his grave. Yep, if the Democrats continue to attack honest, hard-working citizens like Joe the Plumber in an arrogant, condescending manner the crap will indeed hit the fan someday. When that day comes, the Democrats will wind up like the Whig Party of 19th Century America.

Oct 22, 2008 - 9:56 pm 479. Frank L:

Here are 12 reasons why the Big O will lose come Nov. 4th:

1 – He is outside the mainstream group think.

a. Americans, as a rule, do not subscribe to the gospel of the extreme left OR the extreme right.

b. Most Americans remain centrists and are jealously protective of their guaranteed inalienable rights.

2 – He is THE most liberal (and disingenuous) Senator in the country.

3 – Unanswered questions and deep doubt.

a. Occidental College records—Not released?

b. Columbia College records—Not released?

c. Columbia Thesis paper—Not available?

d. Harvard College records—Not released?

e. Selective Service Registration—Not released?

f. Medical records—Not released?

g. Illinois State Senate schedule—Not available?

h. Illinois State Senate records—Not available?

i. Certified Copy of original Birth certificate—Not released?

j. Record of baptism—Not available?

4 – His “spreading the wealth” Marxist leanings – The mysterious “Frank” cited as a friend and adviser by Obama while he was growing up in Hawaii has been identified as Frank Marshall Davis, a member of the old Moscow-controlled Communist Party USA..

5 – His waffle on direct talks with real and perceived enemies.

6 – A growing concern (even among his supporters) that he will say whatever is necessary but cannot be trusted to do what he says.

7 – His links to unsavory anti-American characters from his formative years from Frank M. Davies to Ayers, to Rev. Wright to Father Phleger et al. all of whom would inevitably have shaped his thinking

8 – The possibility of a total Dem. control of all three limbs of govt. from the Presidency to Congress to the Judiciary violates the Doctrine of Separation of Powers and scares the hell out of voters.

9 – The possibility of Obama being a shady “Manchurian Candidate” working for anti-American causes considering the dubious nature and sources of his campaign funds.

10- Powell’s endorsement and the racial polarization of 96% of African American support for the Big O operating as a poisoned chalice that will unleash a spectacular backlash on Nov.4th.

11- The lib.media bias have got so many Reps. all riled up that, like me, they’d be dragging every pal, relative and next door neighbor to the polls come Nov. 4th

12- The seemingly habitual trait of the Democratic Party to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on election day!

On Nov. 6th I’d be throwing a party to toast the end of the biggest threat to American sovereignty since 9/11! All of you’re most welcomed to join in!

Oct 23, 2008 - 12:34 am 480. Marc Malone:

Tim H – You make more than Joe, but you’ll never make 250K? Why not? Turns out, Joe is about 6 months out from getting his Master Plumber degree. He just chose not to go through the Union. He’s 34. What makes you think he can’t soon launch his own business and actually make the kind of living he hopes for, while training other guys to become apprentices and providing them jobs? Why would you have a problem with this guy?

To the others – He owes taxes, because many gov’ts don’t advise you you owe, but lazily just put a lien on your house. Stupid government doesn’t even know how to be efficient at collecting taxes.

The 250k is for a family. 150k is the limit for an individual, or 3k/wk. sounds like a lot, but much depends on where you live. That’s something that’s really wrong with the tax system: it’s not adjusted for locale cost-of-living. In Chicago, an average schoolteacher makes 83k/yr! What? Don’t worry, that’s still low pay there.

I don’t know what it’s like in Ohio, but I imagine there are areas where Joe could gross that kind of income by himself working 60-70 hrs/wk charging only $50/hr plus expenses. 50×60=3k/wk.

The problem with most people on this issue is that they’ve never really looked into the idea of having their own business, so they simply don’t the numbers. If they ever did, they’d get gold fever in a hurry. They’d learn how wealth is created, and they’d start dreaming.

Of interest, Joe’s been appearing all over the media. He’s now getting paid for his pain. He should have a nice, tidy sum with which to buy his business by the time this is over! He’ll also have no trouble getting business partners. He could move to Texas (Red State)where there is actually a “Joe the Plumber” business. He could buy in and the business would boom! He now has it made.

Oct 23, 2008 - 1:00 am 481. BKG:

Sorry, I did catch exactly WHICH DEMOCRATS are attacking Joe the Plumber? Are there actually representatives of the Democratic Party going after Joe? what I have seen is that McCain brought him up as campaign prop in the debate and cited his name (or title) over 20 times in an attempt to justify his own tax plan. I have not once heard Obama make a negative comment about Joe. What I did see what that prior to the dabate Joe had stopped Obama who was walking through his neighborhood and Obama took a generous amount of time explaining to Joe how his tax plan would affect him even though he could clearly see that Joe was not likely to give him his vote. Then I heard that the media started checking out this new McCain-made celebrity political prop Joe the Plumber. And it turned out Joe is well within an income bracket that clearly benefits from Obama’s tax plan which is contrary to everything McCain had stated in the debate. THAT IS NEWS that is compelling and interesting and worth reporting! If anybody should be criticized for putting Joe the Plumber under the critical eye of the media its McCain and not democrats or even the media.

Oct 23, 2008 - 6:13 am 482. Ed Wallis:

“BKG”:

You are clearly either misinformed or just another O’bot troll.

To say, “I have not once heard Obama make a negative comment about Joe” after both Obama and Biden publicly scorned and dismissed Mr. Wurzelbacher (you can bother to learn the man’s name, if you’re going to troll about him) only shows what news you do not see…or choose not to see.

Oct 23, 2008 - 7:03 am 483. Ed Wallis:

Sorry I forgot to mention “BKG”, but I find it most telling that YOU seemingly DO NOT find Obama’s own words –

“I think when you spread the wealth it’s good for everybody” -

“NEWS that is compelling and interesting and worth reporting”.

MOST AMERICANS BEG TO DIFFER.

Oct 23, 2008 - 7:06 am 484. BKG:

Ed Wallis—Why so defensive? I asked a simple question and gave you what I have observed. Why do you feel the need to turn to name calling and insults? You took the time to respond and since as you point out, I’m so “misinformed”, why not finish your point with some actual information? You stated “Obama and Biden publicly scorned and dismissed Mr. Wurzelbacher”. Can you give examples without the hostility?

And did you take it personally that I referred to the man as “Joe the Plumber” and “Joe”? and not by his first and last name? My God! I certainly did not mean that as a slam on Mr. Wurzelbacher! I took the reference from the TITLE OF THE ARTICLE!

Oct 23, 2008 - 8:04 am 485. Ed Wallis:

BKG,

Please find the videos out there yourself; I saw them on the news and and quite certain a chap as nimble as yourself can find them.

Defensive? Hardly. Just zero patience with folks who focus on the messenger rather than the message: it wasn’t Joe Wurzelbacher’s question, but Obama’s answer (HE’S the guy running for President, remember…) that matters.

It’s a pity, but there are so many troll out there these days who attempt to divert the discussion of Obama’s socialist outlook with the “shiny penny” technique: “ooh! lookie there! it’s a shiny penny! no, don’t look over at THAT issue, looie here at this shiny penny!”

If you are indeed a sincere poster simply of another perspective, I respectfully request you consider this, and I think you will understand.
If you are just another troll…spraying T R O L L – B E – G O N E on the screen….

Oct 23, 2008 - 11:09 am 486. BKG:

Ed Wallis, do you feel like you have scored because you dismiss me as “troll”?

It sounds like you are confusing all of the people you don’t like (Obama; folks who focus on the messenger rather than the message; trolls; socialists; people who like shiny pennies; people who don’t show their full respect to Joe Wurzelbacher; and most importantly: people who ask questions to which you do not know the answer).

Dude, the article is titled “The Democratic Party’s Drubbing of Joe The Plumber”. Isn’t it??? Am I “misinformed” about that? Am I chasing shiny pennies? All I want to know is how is the democratic party “Drubbing” Joe the Plumber? Is it not good to ask questions on this website? Are you so worried about “trolls” asking difficult questions that you just want to attack first and be reasonable only as a last resort? Ed, I “respectfully request” that you consider this: If you don’t know how the democratic party is “drubbing Joe the Plumber”, how the hell do you have the nerve to call me misinformed? Next time just don’t answer!

Nice talking with you Ed.

Oct 23, 2008 - 12:46 pm 487. Ed Wallis:

BKG: “Scoring” interested me back in college days…but I digress. You have merely confirmed the latter of the two possibilities I laid out above.

Oct 23, 2008 - 1:33 pm 488. BKG:

Ed: You win buddy. Now go stroke yourself.

Oct 23, 2008 - 2:44 pm 489. concerned:

Stop the negative rhetoric. It is starting to affect our kids. I am a teacher and I asked a kids I know to be a McCain supporter why he did not have is McCain button on. This is a kid who I have had interesting discussion with about politics and we have often agreed to disagree on many issues. i was shocked when he looked at me and told me that he did not want to get a B carved in his face. I tried to explain to him that the guy who attacked the woman a few days back was not representative of Democratic thinking and behavior anymore that idiot at McCain rallies yelling kill him or the few McCain supporters who make out being muslim a negative aspect of someones character. He said that an Obama supporter was more likely to commit violence against than the otehr way around. I know he did not come up with this on his own and I am saddened.

Yes I support Obama. Not because he is black. I supported Hillary andnow I support Obama because I agree with him. If McCain wins I hope he continues across party lines. At this point I am pessimistic about whether or not this nation will come together. In the end we are all Americans. Just because I don’t share all of your values, does not mean I am any less a patrior. We need to make sure that our children do not follow our negative example and stereo type the other side. We must be united aftet this is over or we will be “United in defeat,” (Phil Collins). By the way, one of the most prosperous eras in US history was the Clinton years. For 6 of his 8 years, he operated with a Senate. Interesting what can happen when we bring diverse ideas to the table.

God Bless America

Oct 24, 2008 - 9:55 am 490. Dani:

I pledge my alligance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands ONE nation under GOD with liberty and justice for all.

Doesn’t that mean anything anymore? ONE nation under GOD, not under Democratic ruling or Republican ruling, under GOD.

Yeah, so both candidates say things that I don’t agree with or like, so then how do I decide who to vote for? Well lets see… who am I as a person? What do I believe?

I will not sacrifice my beliefs or my morals for anyone. Not even the future president.

Oct 24, 2008 - 6:08 pm 491. Enatabinvigma:

Check this youtube video hrmmmm niceeeeee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDeb1fKN5GU

Dec 28, 2008 - 6:28 pm 492. joechanlovestheworld:

hi everybody! I merely wanted to announce myself to the community here. Looks like a amazing gathering and a fantastic atmosphere

Aug 19, 2009 - 2:14 pm

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