Pajamas Media

The GOP Wises Up

Strategically attacking Obama's $825 billion stimulus bill.

January 19, 2009 - by Jennifer Rubin

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But the House Republicans are not simply saying “no.” (Or even “Hell, no!”) They are taking seriously Obama’s offer to listen to their ideas. They are holding hearings and presenting their ideas — mostly in the form of tax cuts or defense spending.

The House Republicans, not always know for finesse, seem then to be operating on a clever two-track process. On one hand, they are lambasting the existing Democratic plan, which certainly bears the Obama administration’s imprint, but for now is presented under the House Democrats’ name. The Republicans are making clear it isn’t a stimulus plan, isn’t going to do much for economic recovery, and isn’t going to get many of their votes. On the other hand, they are ignoring the Obama team’s influence in shaping that very plan and instead answering his high-minded calls for input with plenty of constructive and conservative ideas of their own.

Will it work? It depends, as Bill Clinton might say, on what the definition of “work” is. If they are aiming to refashion the Obama stimulus plan into one all conservatives could embrace the answer is almost certainly “no.” But two other outcomes are possible, and either could be termed a success of sorts.

First, the Obama might embrace their ideas — add meaningful tax rate cuts, swap domestic pork for needed defense spending, and reduce the overall level of spending. The Republicans would thereby demonstrate their relevance and influence — and deal a setback to their House counterparts who would then be characterized as to the left of Obama. Triangulation would be back.

The more likely result, however, will be that virtually none of their ideas gets into the bill. In that case they can in good conscience vote against it, making clear that “bipartisanship” is a flimsy façade and that the responsibility for the bloated deficit and useless spending bonanza rests solely with the Democrats. That “works” too.

Now all of this will take place before the bill reaches the Senate. Then it will be Minority Leader Mitch McConnell’s chance to perform the same task: force the new administration to give ground or corral his caucus to vote en masse against the spend-a-thon.

Republicans haven’t always played their cards well over the last couple of years. Their tone has often been off-putting and their policy muddled. And they were hampered to a large extent by the pressure to defend the Republican president. Nevertheless, they have learned to operate in the minority with limited parliamentary rights and a dwindling caucus. And they found out the hard way that it doesn’t pay to get buffaloed into support for ill-conceived rescue plans.

So for now, they are doing the best with what they have — which isn’t much. And they are posing a challenge to the new administration: does the Obama team really want to reenact the New Deal or do they want a bipartisan plan that might just work to promote growth and lift the economy out of recession? We’ll find out the answer soon enough.

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Jennifer Rubin is PJM's Washington, DC, editor. She also blogs at Commentary’s Contentions.

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73 Comments

1. formwiz:

I like Jennifer’s point ten, especially the 400 mil for “National Treasures” Who knew crushing national debt was something to be cherished?

Jan 19, 2009 - 3:34 am 2. Craig:

“And they found out the hard way that it doesn’t pay to get buffaloed into support for ill-conceived rescue plans.”

SAY WHAT? Buffaloed? The GOP has turned into a wretched band of spineless RINOs. They weren’t buffaloed, they’re infected with liberal dysfunction. They’ve completely abandoned conservative principles.

Period.

End of Allan Bloom story.

Jan 19, 2009 - 4:08 am 3. turfmann:

Well, I finally found something that the Democrats and I agree on. As a turfgrass professional, I am keenly aware that the lawns on the National Mall are a disgrace. Let’s do a little math, shall we? If you’re willing to be overly generous by what is described by the national mall and say that it is everything from in front of the Capitol, down to the Lincoln Memorial, takes in the Jefferson Memorial, the ball fields and parks near the tidal pool, the ellipse, you might come up with about 600 acres. $200 million divided by 600 acres is $333 thousand per acre. Now imagine what you could do with $333 thousand if you had those funds to invest in your acre house lot. Think you might be on the cover of Better Homes and Gardens?

I think in light of our current economic predicament we could put up with a little crabgrass, don’t you?

Jan 19, 2009 - 5:30 am 4. SaraforAmerica:

Um, just thinking that, it might be too late, GOP leaders….Have fun getting steamrolled now that you finally got a clue.

PS The GOP might also start being a bit more disagreeable concerning Obama’s cabinet appointments. Otherwise, it’s hopeless.

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:17 am 5. cedarhill:

This is EXACTLY what Republicans in both houses must do. All these Democrat bills must be passed solely by the Democrats. Republicans cannot win by voting with the Democrats. No how, no way and inconceivable. Obama must own the upcoming failures. Obama must own making people pay $8/gal for gasoline; Obama must own 18% interest rates; Obama must own 12% unemployment rates. Obama must be remembered as a historic figure with just a bunch of naive ideas.

Not One Republican Vote For Obama Bills!

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:45 am 6. Grover:

Nothing short of a resounding NO by the GOP will do! Reagan Conservatives, ARISE! Is there such a thing as a spinal transplant???

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:50 am 7. David Thomson:

“PS The GOP might also start being a bit more disagreeable concerning Obama’s cabinet appointments.”

The above sentence requires a bit more nuance. Barack Obama should be congratulated when he does something right—and politely rebuked when he does something wrong. It is foolish to behave like immature and embittered children. We must pick fights only when they are worthy of our time and efforts.

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:19 am 8. PokerGuy:

The Dem bill will surely get at least one Republican vote in the Senate: John McCain’s. He’s already making those “reach across the isle” noises again, and he has a high national profile (with sympathetic MSM press coverage for his more egregious efforts – something the true conservatives will never get). Like it or not, the Republican Party image will continue to be damaged by his comments and actions.

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:26 am 9. Freddie Funky:

A government program that will spend $275k for each job created. Wow.. what vision. Isn’t anyone doing a cost benefit analysis? Isn’t there anyone sober anymore? Urgh…

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:29 am 10. SaraforAmerica:

OK, I can agree with you, David, #7.

Specifically, Geithner and Holder. NO.

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:36 am 11. David Thomson:

“Specifically, Geithner and Holder. NO.”

Amen. We cannot afford to be perceived as knee jerk “Obama haters.” I personally have absolutely no interest in behaving like a right-wing version of the Daily Kos. Targeting Geither and Holder is entirely justified. I am very pleased, it must be pointed out, that Obama picked Hillary Clinton. There will likely be numerous times in the future where our new president will need our help to combat the left-wing crazies with his own party.

Is our real enemy John McCain? This feckless individual may do everything possible to suck-up to “elite” opinion. The American people must know that he is not normally on the same page with us.

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:01 am 12. The Historian:

STIMULUS WILL NOT END THE RECESSION
TAX CUTS CAN END THIS RECESSION
Business, not government, is the only force big enough to turn around the economy.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/01/business-not-government-will-drive-away.html

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:09 am 13. SaraforAmerica:

David, #11.

McCain is the nail in the coffin for the GOP. He lacks an ability to see himself as anything other than the young stud war hero, maverick.

That’s what he once was, but now he’s just a “feckless” (good word) politician trying to stay in power. If he truly loves us, he’ll let us go. He’s doing incredible damage.

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:34 am 14. goy:

Duh.

This is how clever liberals continue their tax-and-spend policies to support their favorite causes without being held accountable as tax-and-spend liberals.

1. Create an economic crisis that stalls the economy.
2. Allocate federal funds painted as ’stimulus’ to solve the crisis.
3. Tie up the opposition with “hearings” that go nowhere.

See Chapter One of Jonah Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism regarding the use of crisis.

The GOP is only about 8 years late “wising up”, assuming they have, which is doubtful. If they were ever “hampered” in this regard, due to any efforts whatsoever expended in defending their Republican President, there is no evidence of that. They should have been calling a spade a spade from the day the entrenched media and the Anti-Bush Party began attacking the President, his administration, conservatives, our Armed Forces and America. Had they done so, things might be very different today. But they were as non-responsive as Bush was.

Via their Fifth Column media, Dems will trot out the “mess Bush left us in” for at least the next four years as needed. So a loss on this bill for the GOP along party lines will mean absolutely nothing. It’ll be the GOP that is painted as intransigent by the entrenched media, not the leftists. Meanwhile, hundreds of billion$ will go to programs that further Socialists’ aims in the U.S.

And the public will nod, doe-eyed, in agreement.

Most frightening of all: McCain would have had us in exactly the same predicament.

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:35 am 15. jrh:

The Historian got it right:
STIMULUS WILL NOT END THE RECESSION
TAX CUTS CAN END THIS RECESSION

Barron’s Magazine this week covers this subject very well.

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:40 am 16. john from cinncinatti:

what happened to the plan to add 40 cents on the gallon of fuel so we could bankroll this money giveaway? i like the plan to give money directly to the taxpayer, the other plan looks like storm clouds on the horizon, i’m dying of thirst and all i get is a few drops on my windshield. it sucks to be the runt of the litter because you get pushed to the back of the line and there won’t be anything left in the trough once the big pigs finish feeding.

Jan 19, 2009 - 10:53 am 17. Karen:

What’s really disturbing is that you would not believe the amount of people who actually LOVE the idea of getting handouts from our government. It’s difficult for hard working people to wrap their heads around that sort of mentality, but I’ve seen it again and again–especially on the internet, where these people are all for more monies going to people who really do nothing to help themselves–where they are content to sit back, watch YOU work to support THEM (while you are also supporting your own family). You would think they’d have some sense of shame over this, but they do not. I’ve had to stop reading at some places because my blood pressure shoots through the roof–but these people exist in LARGE numbers.

As an aside, I was at the grocery store the other day and got behind some woman with two cute little kids and she was carrying a HUGE Coach bag that had to cost thousands of dollars (it was real)…and the kicker? She was paying for her food with food stamps. I nearly had a heart attack and had to move my cart to another line because I was just so furious. I don’t have a Coach purse. I can’t afford one. But I do buy my own groceries.

Jan 19, 2009 - 10:58 am 18. howell clark:

i have just finished reading some of the best most enlightening articles i have seen in ages. it is so heartening to see that good journalism still exist. to bad it isn’t available in hard copy so more people could be exposed. gosh hope the tree huggers don’t think that is wastefull. i wish i could recycle some of them. in the mean time i will revisit your site. thank you

Jan 19, 2009 - 12:33 pm 19. Stewart Jones:

…hmmm, were was all the repub outrage when we totally wasted that much money or more in Iraq? At least this money will be spent here!

Jan 19, 2009 - 12:59 pm 20. Fred:

All Democrats need do is NOT call this a stimulus – call it a Defense Budget – earmark ALL the funds for the Pentagon – and Republicans – Like JRube – will be dancing in the streets – particularly if we IMPLY that iran is NEXT….

Jan 19, 2009 - 1:01 pm 21. bob:

Republicans would support every penny of it if it were only given to the wealthiest 1%.

Jan 19, 2009 - 1:14 pm 22. LB:

Karen, hopefully, you felt the same feelings after learning that all of those AIG execs went to that resort to get facials and back massages.

Jan 19, 2009 - 1:23 pm 23. Stewart Jones:

1. The House Democrats’ bill will cost each and every household $6,700 additional debt, paid for by our children and grandchildren.

One should compare this to the $40,200 of additional debt for each and every household the Bush admin ran up in the last 8 years ($5 trillion). What did we get besides a failed war, collapsed economy, a drowned city, rising unemployment, and crumbling infrastructure?

Jan 19, 2009 - 1:29 pm 24. LB:

The last three repubs ran up HUGE deficits, Reagan, Bush and Bush II. Regan doubled the national debt that had accumulated over the first 200 years!

Why don’t repubs say anything when repubs do it?

Why are repubs ok with giving money to foreigners but are unwilling to help their own countryman?

Jan 19, 2009 - 1:30 pm 25. Dave H:

Soon to come:
“Congressional Democrats and a beaming, confident President Obama announced today that they have agreed on a stimulus plan that gives $25,000 to every man, woman and child in America, to be offset by a new set of taxes that the Congressional Budget Office estimates will only cost each American approximately $30,000. Knowledgeable observers laud the President’s far-reaching vision and unparalleled brilliance in devising such an ingenious solution to the worst economic crisis since the invention of money. Although the details are still sketchy, many believe that Congress will eventually settle on some version of the widely-rumored plan to simply give everybody a $25,000 bill with the President’s picture on it. Republicans will apparently attempt to obstruct the progress of the bill by echoing business leaders who complain about the difficulty that already distressed retailers will have in making change for the Obama notes. However, several Republican Senators from New England and John McCain, lovable and gracious loser of the most historic election ever, have already expressed their support for the bill, thus assuring its passage in the Senate.”

Jan 19, 2009 - 1:59 pm 26. coloradonative:

Why all the outrage for a plan that just may be the only hope we have for getting out from under the TRILLION dollar national debt run up by little Georgie Bush and big Dick Cheney..? another diversionary tactic to shift the blame from the real thieves and murderers…who have enriched themselves and their cronies like it was a “God given” right. RIGHT. I think we should keep Gitmo open just for them…. they can be bunkies…

Jan 19, 2009 - 2:18 pm 27. Sheik Yerbouti:

Bob #21, that makes absolutely no sense. The Federal Reserve is going to own us all if this keeps up, and they’re in bed with the Dems *and* the Republicans.

Jan 19, 2009 - 2:49 pm 28. doctorsam:

I don’t think Obama knows exactely what he wants to do. ie. 2nd New Deal or bail out the economy.
For sure he wants to do what helps Obama the most. That is quite evident.
It’s very difficult for me to understand why he would continue to pursue so many different programs and projects that have proved to be such failures in the past, either here or abroad. Is it remotely possible that the more or less widely accepted wisdom on these gov. bailouts and defecit spending programs is lost on him ie, he’s not aware? That almost seems impossible. Is it that despite his being aware that most of what he is proposing doesn’t work he will proceed anyway, perhaps because he owes so much to groups who stand to benefit? Is it possible that he knows these programs will fail? Is there no one who at least mentionted to him that most if not all of the things he is purposing generally wind up just creating more deeply rooted and longer lasting problems? Hasn’t he read that the
depression in the 30’s was actually legnthened by FDR’s programs, despite the popular distortions of the history? Could it be that the absolute only thing that matters is retention of the Party’s hold on power?
Something seems very wrong to me. There are volumes and libraries full of documentation that government devised and government run programs in the long run just flat out fail, despite partisian claims to the contrary.
The government has admitted that social sec. and medicare in their present form will collapse, why would anyone think that if we enroll the rest of the population in those programs everything will inprove…my Lord that’t juvinale logic, expand failing programs to everyone..that’s the answer.
Is America aware that Congress does not particapate in medicare OR social security…..do any bells go off folks? They, congress, therefore has no vested interest in the programs. Have you ever been to a socoal security office looding for assistance or to a medicare facility?(hell,how about the state dept.)
The one thing that I know for sure is that almost since his first minute after being elected Obama has been telling us how ominously bad things are in the county…how dire the situation is and how much work and sacrifice it will take to make things better. Work and sacririce..by whom? Him?
I don’t know the answers to most of the questions I’ve raised….but my level of suspicion has now reached ‘redline!!!! Be very aware fellow Americans….once these things are set in motion they attain a life of their own…and they grow

Jan 19, 2009 - 3:06 pm 29. Reginald Perrin:

How well I remember John Boehner and his Republican colleagues screaming about Pres. Bush’s deficit spending, how they cried foul when he moved all Iraq and Afghanistan spending off the regular books so he wouldn’t have to include that spending in his deficit, how they insisted that every dollar cut in taxes be met with a similar cut in spending, and how they cut down on wasteful pork and infrastructure spending.
If there’s a bigger hypocrite than a Congressional Republican, then I don’t want to meet that person.

Jan 19, 2009 - 3:28 pm 30. Bob1:

For the life of me I don’t understand why McCain snuggles up to the Democrats. I guess no one’s pointed out to him that there’s only a few degrees of difference between the socialist Democratic party, and those who took such tender care of him during his stay in Hanoi. Same fabric, different thread count.

I chalk it up to some variant of the Stockholm syndrome caused by his treatment in Hanoi.

Jan 19, 2009 - 3:44 pm 31. John:

Ms Rubin has the luxury of not having to go back and face voters next year and tell them they voted against the stimulus program. Hence we can expect 10-15 Republican senators to vote with the Dems. When I read her piece and some of these comments I wonder what world she and some of these folks are living in. The country is in the worst recession since the war and the financial system is on life support, the country is scared, and the president elect has approval ratings in the seventies according to RCP. As a Republican famously said if the Republican brand was dog food they’d be taking it off the shelves and the current Republican president is effectively leaving office in disgrace if disgrace is having approval ratings the same as Nixon. Basically Obama and the democrats can do what they want and will. If it succeeds he’ll be a hero and it probably will. For the nihilists who seem to be hoping for failure, you guys have to grow up because a failure would be catastrophic for the country.

Jan 19, 2009 - 3:56 pm 32. Debbieqd:

Quite a nice list of criticisms. However, as usual, not one good idea from Republicans. Do we need to point out to Mr. Boehner that he is in disagreement with 99.9% of all economists — from both parties — and those around the globe? Just what does make him so smart and so “right?”

Jan 19, 2009 - 4:02 pm 33. Tundrapat:

I find it ironic that a bunch of GOP-supporting conservatives (here) think they have the ‘real answer’ to how to improve the economic outlook of this nation, when almost every major recession we’ve had has come under the GOP’s watch.

Of, that’s right – when the economy improves under Democratic leadership, it’s because the GOP set it up beforehand. And when the economy fails under GOP leadership, it’s somehow because of the Democrats. So when history shows that the economy expands at about twice the rate under the Dems (2.2 percent per year, historically) as it does under the GOP (0.9 percent per year), it’s CERTAINLY not due to any action by the Dems themselves.

Whew – glad that’s sorted. I was worried that Obama and the new Democracy in DC might actually improve the situation that the Bush crew left behind…

Jan 19, 2009 - 4:17 pm 34. JayLudes:

#19 – You can go curl up with your bwankie again, it seems nap time ended too soon. Don’t worry, real men and women will continue to guard you.

#20 – Republicans don’t have time to dance in the streets – we’re too busy working hard and contributing to society. Don’t you have a protest to go to?

#21 – Prove it.

#22 – No matter how many times you repeat KnownFacts, it doesn’t make it true. Do your own research, I won’t do it for you.

#23 – Seriously? You do know what $40,200/8 equals, right? (Hint: It’s less than $6,700)

#24 – Reagan had an issue called the USSR to contend with. Bush I saw it through to the end (prolly broke your heart). And I don’t know if you’ve noticed the two gaping holes in Manhattan, but that might have contributed to Bush II’s financial difficulties.

#26 – Are you allowed to wear your tinfoil hat at your mother’s dinner table?

#29 – How’s Obama treating you with that SecDef choice?

#31 – You are confused. We are hoping for Obama’s and the Democrats’ failures, which will be a success for this country.

#33 – How’d the economy do under Jimmuh? And too bad Clinton was hamstrung by a Rethuglican congress, otherwise imagine all the greatness he could have achieved thanks to the heroism of Gorbachev, right?

WTF happened – did all the servers at the typical socialist blogs go down simultaneously?

Jan 19, 2009 - 4:55 pm 35. lwayne:

……….it seems most here are pretty dumb and uninformed!!

Jan 19, 2009 - 4:58 pm 36. Stewart Jones:

JayLudes

#19 – You can go curl up with your bwankie again, it seems nap time ended too soon. Don’t worry, real men and women will continue to guard you.

Guard me fro all of the tens of thousands innocent civilians killed in Iraq for non-existent WMDS? Gaurd me from what? A trillion dollars and Osama is still free….

#23 – Seriously? You do know what $40,200/8 equals, right? (Hint: It’s less than $6,700)

…not only are your political views on the fringe, but you also can’t do basic math. The article is about $825 million that Repubs say equals $6700 in debt to all households. Bush ran up $5 trillion. So if the numbers, from Repubs, are $6700 per $825 billion, then $5 trillion divided by $825 billion = 6, so $6700 X 6 = $40,200 (I rounded a little). I know, its hard to listen to details and facts when you are a righty…

WTF happened – did all the servers at the typical socialist blogs go down simultaneously?

No the servers are not down, its just that you live in a center left country and are now in the minority.

Cheers!

Jan 19, 2009 - 5:24 pm 37. Karen:

LB, yes I did feel the same way.

Jan 19, 2009 - 5:29 pm 38. D Max:

The GOP giving the Dems economic advice… HA!
The GOP will be remembered for its stimulus plan: $700 billion to payroll bank CEO bonuses and raises. The GOP will be remembered for turning $128 billion surplus into $1.2 trillion deficit. That is the GOP fiscal legacy.

Jan 19, 2009 - 5:58 pm 39. Mark S. Strom:

Seems like there’s quite a few here that actually believe drivel published by an organization that sent Samuel Wurzelbacher (AKA ‘Joe the Plumber’) to Israel as a “correspondent”. Who can forget this insightful comment:

“I think media should be abolished from, you know, reporting,” Wurzelbacher said. “You know, war is hell. And if you’re gonna sit there and say, ‘well, look at this atrocity,’ well you don’t know the whole story behind it half the time, so I think the media should have no business in it.”

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJYCxj8KXjQ)

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:05 pm 40. JayLudes:

Stewart

#19 – Any more big gaping holes anywhere?

#23 – $825,000,000 in -1 day. Let’s keep the tab running…

P.S. – I was in the minority before all of your socialist wet dreams came true. I don’t mind.

Have a happy day tomorrow! You guys deserve it, you paid enough for it. I’ll be working hard, just as usual.

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:12 pm 41. ConservativePatriot:

I love this country enough that I am willing to see it fail and collapse so that our party can force Obama to “own” Bush’s recession. Seriously guys, I love America, but not as much as I hate them dang Liberals.
Chinese is a language that I am sure can’t be that difficult to learn.

Jan 19, 2009 - 6:33 pm 42. Sid:

Jennifer Rubin might want to look up the term infrastructure(either that or she simply thinks we are stupid). She complains that since only $30 billion are being spent on roads and highways, therefore only that $30 billion is being spent on infrastructure. There is more to infrastructure than roads and highways.

Likewise, she complains about “$200 million for the National Mall, including grass planting.” Once again, there is more to the National Mall than grass.

I think Ms. Rubin really does think we are stupid.

Jan 19, 2009 - 7:48 pm 43. mbss:

conservatives are stupid, lulz

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:22 pm 44. Voyager:

Ok, so running up a 1T debt over 8 years was a bad thing, so the only way to fix that is to borrow and spend another 1T right this instant?

Did I miss something?

This is where the whole hypocracy argument starts to wear thin. A guy who’s sleeping around on his wife is an ass and a hypocryte, but a guy who’s sleeping around on his wife, and then rubbing her face in it, is an even bigger ass, hypocryte or not.

Yes the congress republicans were hypocrytes on spending, but the democract remidy to that is to do it more and harder than the repubs ever did, and this is somehow supposed to be a good thing?

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:33 pm 45. Just Ed:

Jayludes:

Touche!!!

Jan 19, 2009 - 8:37 pm 46. Larry Hackett:

Republican Minority Leader John Boehner’s report has been thoroughly repudiated in the press yesterday and today. Is Pajamsmedia a part of the Fix Noise “news??” empire?

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:24 pm 47. Derek:

“The House Republicans, not always know for finesse, seem then to be operating on a clever two-track process.”

It’s not clever at all if there is no unity on the issue with Senate republicans. Otherwise it just plays out like the bailout.

Jan 19, 2009 - 9:46 pm 48. RK:

Here’s the little secret. There are already armies of urban planners pulling “proposals” to spend the stimulus bill. In all the major towns, cities, counties, states, etc.

So the are Locked and Loaded ready to go projects.

Of course, the local public will be given little in any voice in this. If a dubious intermodal park lot gets built to 20M it will be a fait accompli.

I’m not saying all is bad. But the local taxpayers have had no say.

Watch the pea under the shell. We’re in a shell game. The money will trickle all over, and suddenly there will be Obama Parking Garage right down the block

And all the low income people will get their homes energy efficient.

Jan 19, 2009 - 10:46 pm 49. Plato:

—Stewart Jones:— Guard me fro all of the tens of thousands innocent civilians killed in Iraq for non-existent WMDS?—

This statement has irony dripping from two noticeable places in history: first off, many thousands of Iraqis and Iranians were killed with so-called “non-existent WMDs.” In fact, those WMDs were so non-existent, that it took less than 1 minute for a few hundred specific Iraqis to drop to the ground with paralysis awaiting a quick and quite painful death.

Secondly, do you mean to say that Saddam had ZERO (that is 0, 1 less than 1) WMD when the USA and her allies entered Iraq under OIF or do you mean some number X greater than 0 but less that some number of stock pile Y (0 > WMDx < StockPileY)?

I ask for a few reasons: 1) WMDs were found. Not only were WMDS found but WMDS SPECIFICALLY cited by the UN and their weapon’s teams that were missing and NOT ACCOUNTED for were FOUND BY AMERICAN MILITARY officials (in fact some US soldiers had to be treated to the adverse affect of these WMD which were still lethal). 2) A LOT of WMDs were found. STOCK piles. Thousands upon thousands of drums of duel use materials, documents, and facilities that are explicitly required for the production of WMD were found and 3) Literally THOUSANDS of pages of documents now declassified, found in the after math of Saddam’s removal, demonstrate he had kept WMD as well a the knowledge and materials to rekindle said WMD programs at a later date and had every intention of both restarting his programs and using his WMDs at a later time (post sanction).

All of this material is available to the public and requires VERY LITTLE RESEARCH.

All of this begs the question: why do you prefer to live with LIES and IGNORANCE when the truth is out there?

In fact we have a really good idea what Saddam had pre-invasion and we have a good idea what he destroyed and what he failed to destroy. That combined with what we found leaves a HUGE GAP of materials that WE KNOW SADDAM HAD but WE DID NOT FIND. Why the hell are you not even the least bit curious where those materials, materials we KNOW FOR 100% ABSOLUTE FACT he had have wondered off to?

How can you be so damn stupid as to just assume THEY NEVER EXISTED because we did not find them (even though we found PLENTY we did not find ALL) simply because they were not found when WE KNOW THEY DID EXIST? How are you so blind?

Never mind Military reports that the Russians were in Iraq six months prior to the invason (which was broadcasted to the entire world) and that Iraqi state aircraft nd vehicles were tracked moving from Iraq into Syria (and other nations) prior to invasion which was cooberated by Iraqi, Israile, and Russian personelle.

—Stewart Jones:—Gaurd me from what? A trillion dollars and Osama is still free….…not only are your political views on the fringe, but you also can’t do basic math. The article is about $825 million that Repubs say equals $6700 in debt to all households. Bush ran up $5 trillion.—

He may have problems with basic math but you sure as hell need to go back to school and learn basic Government boyo. Bush did not run up $5 trillion. Bush did not run up $1.00. Why? Because it is ILLEGAL for the President of the United States to appropriate money outside of Congress. In fact, to my knowledge, only ONE PRESIDENT in the history of the Republic has ever done so and that was Abraham Lincoln (a great man who greatly shredded the US Constitution).

Back to Congress: who was the Senate Majority leader in September of 2001?

Who were the House and Senate Majority leaders from 2006 – 2009 (today)?

All of that debt and that “evil war” you hate so much was provided with the help of Congressional Democrats including some key Democrats in Obama’s cabinet. How about the collapse of the housing industry made possible by Barney Frank, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter and FDR (remember, Bush and Congressional Republicans WARNED of this impending doom and people such as yourself, and the NYT INSULTED them; God how I love the Internet and how records surive)? How about the dissolution of a bank single handedly caused by the Democrat Chucky boy?

Now Obama and his Democrat Congress, the same Democrat Congress (plus More Democrats) who created the problem we have and now the so-called Bailout, which has done nothing, want another $1 trillion PLUS on top of the $1.5 trillion dollar defecit they have already run up. Let me know when the war in Iraq tops $2.5 trillion dollars boyo.

—Stewart Jones:—No the servers are not down, its just that you live in a center left country and are now in the minority.

Cheers!—

I pray to God you and the Democrats think that way. That way, their asses will be thrown out of power so fast it will make your head spin. Remember Jimmy Carter? Carter’s incompetence (thinking as you think now) brought about Ronald and 20 years of Republican Presidents. Remember Bill Clinton? He hadhad basically the same CIRCUMSTANCES Obama has now and he gave Republicans the keys to the Congress for 10 years.

Now that’s CHANGE I CAN BELEIVE IN! Hah!

Jan 19, 2009 - 11:07 pm 50. Plato:

Sid: In your case, you are ; )

Jan 19, 2009 - 11:08 pm 51. Dr Tobias Funke:

And sending Joe / Samuel the unlicensed plumber to Israel was a great investment in journalism?

Jan 19, 2009 - 11:20 pm 52. TruthHurts:

The House GOP is only “smart” because they’re just taking Obama’s direction…I would be thoroughly disappointed if the GOP did not get something in the bill. Jennifer doubts that Obama would have the GOP ideas included, but that’s not true. The REAL question is whether the GOP wants to submit something NEW…Unfortunately, a repackaged “cut corporate taxes across the board by 10 points” plan, won’t do it…I saw Cantor’s worshop on CSPAN and Romney (a former Governor) actually saw “benefit” to infastructure spending (even state aid to preclude state layoffs)…It was disappointing and “out of touch” that the house gop did not list ANY “spending” plan with this request. Heck, “food stamps” have a bigger ROI than tax cuts OR targeted spending!. The GOP should also endorse Mitt’s idea for the .The tone-death fiscal kool-aid drinkers (Norquist & Heritage) could not fathom any reason to actually repair a bridge or road that may kill somebody…I hope the GOP house comes up with REAL, MIDDLE-CLASS SOLUTIONS. They’ve asked for a meeting with Obama. If I’m him, I tell the GOP house and Senate to get together and give a bullet list. They can all talk about it and let Obama sell it to Pelosi and Reid..Would the GOP dare propose a “tax cut” that does not extend to company’s making more than $250K / Year (90% of all businesses)???..Let’s hope they think a little more “out of the box” than that…Boehner’s WAY out of his league with Obama so he should allign with him where possible and let Obama fight-the-fight with the house dems…

Jan 19, 2009 - 11:31 pm 53. Black Saint:

Strengthening or Weakening the Economy?
By Ron Paul

The economic situation continues to deteriorate this week as past and future bailouts were discussed on Capitol Hill. The debate was over the accountability of already disbursed TARP money, and on whether or not to release remaining funds. Banks that had already been bailed out before are looking for more money to fill the black holes that are their balance sheets, warning that they are simply too big to fail. However, whatever ‘devastating’ consequences these banks are dreaming up and pushing on Capitol Hill regarding their own collapse will be nothing compared to the collapse of our currency if we keep debasing it through these foolish bailouts. It should be that they are too big to bailout. The world will not come to an end without this or that bank. The most troubling thing to me is this rhetoric that only government can save the economy, and must act. This is so counter-productive.

We must ask ourselves what strengthens this country, and what weakens it.

Government is a monumental drag on this economy. Government at all levels currently absorbs about 35-40 percent of GDP, which is still not enough for its voracious appetite. While productivity is already overtaxed, the government routinely spends more than it takes in and makes up for the shortfall by constantly borrowing or debasing our dollars through inflation. It pains me to think of all the opportunities for productive economic growth we have given up simply because our government is super-sized instead of Constitution-sized. There are just a few constitutionally sanctioned activities for government to engage in, but it is so overstretched with unconstitutional encroachments that what it is legitimately supposed to do, it does very badly. And yet we are to believe the solution to our problems is to make government bigger. On the contrary, government makes our problems bigger. The central bank’s meddling with monetary policy led to overheated lending, and now massive defaults. The government used manipulative tax policy to distort the housing market which has had many unintended consequences, and here we are. Government is quick to enact and slow to correct bad policy. Yet in spite of government’s failures, it flourishes and grows, thanks to the continual bailouts from the unwitting taxpayer.

Big government has been tried and has failed miserably. What we need now is small government, and freedom. We need the freedom to pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps again, as we traditionally do in this country. But try to start a business or charity today, and you will understand how little economic freedom we really have left. Freedom, not government, made this the land of opportunity. Freedom laid the foundation that catapulted us to becoming the strongest economic power in the world. The American people are strong and capable. We can pull ourselves out of this mess. All we need is for the nanny-state to get out of the way and allow us to do it. Freedom is our strength, government is our weakness. Only by recognizing this and unleashing our strengths will we solve the problems we face today.
Ron Paul is a Republican United States Congressman from Texas and a former 2008 U.S. presidential candidate.

Jan 20, 2009 - 3:47 am 54. Anonymous:

First, it isn’t Obama’s bail-out package, it was George Bush’s who was on the podium hours after the sink hole dropped the economy into the bucket and suggesteed the stimulus package–and with a lot of conservative support.

The moment it was handed to Obama, the bailout became an albotross.

And if you are a Milton-ian economist–which most conservatives are, then bailouts are perfectly acceptable to save the free market society. Milton Freedman, after all, blamed Hoover for failing to bailout Wall Street and letting the banks fail—-Hoover was, after all just a conservative living up to the ‘Government hands off’ rhetoric.

So let the nit-picking begin.

Jan 20, 2009 - 7:23 am 55. howler:

And the top ten ferderal expenses from 1993 to 2007 (Only data available) are:
total expenditures 1993 to 2007: $38,195,151,266,684.00

Program Total 1993-2007 PCT OF TOTAL pct increase since inception
FLOOD INSURANCE $8,746,686,027,279.00 22.90% 430.09%
SOCIAL SECURITY RETIREMENT INSURANCE $3,712,918,582,101.00 9.72% 166.53%
PROCUREMENT CONTRACTS–DEPT OF DEFENSE $2,574,509,838,963.00 6.74% 225.78%
MEDICAL ASSISTANCE PROGRAM $1,985,740,311,648.00 5.20% 255.95%
MEDICARE-HOSPITAL INSURANCE $1,624,250,888,622.00 4.25% 186.79%
PROCUREMENT CONTRACTS–ALL FED GOVT AGENCIES OTHER $1,350,134,930,275.00 3.53% 204.42%
MEDICARE-SUPPLEMENTARY MEDICAL INSURANCE $1,213,919,610,684.00 3.18% 297.81%
SOCIAL SECURITY SURVIVORS INSURANCE $1,132,036,807,300.00 2.96% 170.58%
SALARIES AND WAGES–ALL FED GOVT CIVILIAN EMP EXCEP$1,004,329,428,377.00 2.63% 179.84%

Good luck.

Jan 20, 2009 - 8:00 am 56. Jersey Dave:

Get ready for more spending. The American people int heir infinite wisdom voted to give even more power to Barney Frank and Co. after they looted and ran the ortgage banking system into the pavement.

Heck Rahm Emmanuel and others in the new Administration are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Alims who helped loot and mismanage the place.

With Pelosi throwing out Gingrich-era laws that allowed Congressional minorities to have a voice in legislation, look for the spending to go way up. Whatever results it means for anyone other than the fat cats who are getting bailed out after spending all the money on hookers and crack, who know? The ones who saved and invested wisely will have their savings plundered to give to those CEOs who did not.

Jan 20, 2009 - 10:44 am 57. hocyouthguy:

Stewart, you got “owned,” as the kids say today. Nice job, Plato.

Jan 20, 2009 - 10:49 am 58. howler:

as a side note for fannie mae anf ginnie mae. the federal goverment shelled out for all mortgage insurance since 1993 to 2007 the following amount: $1,338,407,021,154.00. Thats over a trillion dollars. based on this expenditure, what exactly caused the mortage meltdown?

Jan 20, 2009 - 10:55 am 59. sick of poitics as usual:

So, are we to believe conservatives finally have some fiscal discipline after spending this country into the ground. Keep on whining folks. Nobody believes your act.

Jan 20, 2009 - 11:12 am 60. Chicago:

49: Plato,

Why not point us to some of the easily found “truth” you find on the internets?

As usual, a right wing mutilation of the facts…and alot of whining going on from the “tough” & “stoic” repugs.

You also seem to suggest in your last sentence that the Democrats keep inheriting a steaming pile from the Republicans each time we take office. To paraphrase my grandmother: I hope the republicans wipe their butts better than they ran our country!

Jan 20, 2009 - 1:34 pm 61. Jeff Perren:

“Hoover was, after all just a conservative living up to the ‘Government hands off’ rhetoric.”

Complete myth.

Hoover was a Progressive who was quite consistent with that philosophy. Even as Sec of Commerce prior to becoming President he was already meddling heavily in the economy. He did so endlessly as Chief Executive. RFC, public works, Smooth-Hawley tariffs, price manipulation, the works. Even Progressives acknowledge that FDR continued (and expanded) many of the programs started by Hoover.

Jan 20, 2009 - 5:45 pm 62. Jeff Perren:

The Myth of Hands off Hoover at Shaving Leviathan.

Jan 20, 2009 - 6:01 pm 63. marymcl:

Wow – “feckless” is the perfect word for McCain

@60 Chicago – That’s some remark about your grandmother. Not to mention Plato gives us all a beautiful polemic, and you ask for pointers to internet sources? Google it up. The trick will be to keep reading things that don’t flatter your prejudices. There’s no limit to what you might learn if you have the stamina for it.

Awesome thread everyone

Jan 20, 2009 - 8:47 pm 64. DonnaB:

re: Plato – 49

Not to mention the 500 tons of yellowcake that was shipped over here to Canada that had been part of Saddams secret stash.

Fortunately its existence wasn’t leaked to the traitorous leftie media until after the fact because they would have undoubtably made sure that Iran had a chance to get their hands on it.

Jan 20, 2009 - 10:47 pm 65. Plato:

—Chicago—Why not point us to some of the easily found “truth” you find on the internets?—

Well surprise, surprise! I point out pertinent facts and instead of refuting what I have said or, at the very least, asking for sources (I will get to this so don’t shoot in your pants kid) they (you and your ilk to come) resort to what they appear to think are pithy comebacks and logical fallacies (if not explicitly than implicitly).
How about some education from daz internets boyo (actually source information provided by ADULTS IN THE PAPER WORLD hosted on the Internet for purpose of record and dissemination):
Source documents from the United Nations hosted on UN sites:
The cease fire detailing the legal right the USA and her allies had in invading Iraq UNSCR 687:
http://www.fas.org/news/un/iraq/sres/sres0687.htm
The UNSCR resolution finding Saddam in “material breach” of UNSCR 687, 1441 and almost a dozen in between (all noted in the text):
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2002/SC7564.doc.htm (the press release cites the resolution)
UN Documentation detailing Saddam’s weapons program and various states of discovery prior to OIF:
http://www.un.org/Depts/unmovic/documents/UNMOVIC%20UDI%20Working%20Document%206%20March%2003.pdf
UN Documentation detailing Saaddam’s failures to comply in UNSCR 687 (from 1999) detailing both discovered and missing mutions (covered in UNSCR 687) of particular interest:
http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/s99-94.htm

Here is a particular quote:

—quote—550 Artillery shells filled with Mustard
33. Iraq declared that 550 shells filled with mustard had been “lost” shortly after the Gulf War. To date, no evidence of the missing munitions has been found. Iraq claimed that the chemical warfare agents filled into these weapons would be degraded a long time ago and, therefore, there would be no need for their accounting. However, a dozen mustard-filled shells were recovered at a former CW storage facility in the period 1997-1998. The chemical sampling of these munitions, in April 1998, revealed that the mustard was still of the highest quality. After seven years, the purity of mustard ranged between 94 and 97%. Thus, Iraq has to account for these munitions which would be ready for combat use. The resolution of this specific issue would also increase confidence in accepting Iraq’s other declarations on losses of chemical weapons which it has not been possible to verify.—/endquote—

Check the date.
http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/s99-94.htm

Having established your love affair with logical fallacies, allow me to save you the trouble of drudging out Ad Hominem Tu Quoque, Appeal to Authority, Appeal to Belief or Consensus, StrawMan or any other of your long time favorites: these were provided by the United Nations and are hosted from United Nations servers (not CNN or Fox News).

Here is an interesting explanation of the situation in Iraq (I am almost certain you will fall on your sword of Logical Fallacy on this one boyo):

—quote–Pesticides, Precursors, and Petulance
April 2nd, 2004
It has become established conventional wisdom that “no stockpiles of WMD have been discovered in Iraq.” But this reading of the evidence uncovered to date is premature at best, and highly questionable. A closer look at the data, and at the uses made of it, is essential for those who wish to understand the genuine state of Iraq’s WMD threat at the time of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
Another Congressional committee hearing has come and gone for the head of the hapless Iraqi Survey Group (ISG). Charles Duelfer has testified that he did not know how much longer the weapons hunt might take, but that the “picture is much more complicated than I anticipated going in.” In addition, he also figured out that pinning hopes on getting information from frightened Iraqi scientists was probably not the best way to find the locations of all those WMD stockpiles. (see my previous article Cased Not Closed: Iraq’s WMDs).
Despite contracting out for assistance in document exploitation last October, only a small fraction of the seized documents have been analyzed. Keep in mind that the ISG is largely composed of personnel from the CIA, State Departmnet, such as Duelfer, and the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA), such as the deputy, Maj. Gen. Keith Dayton. These are the same organizations that are currently getting raked over the coals for bureaucratic bungling of intelligence prior to 9-11.
In turn, the beleaguered agencies are deflecting this criticism to the President and his national security advisors, by essentially complaining the “devil made me do it.” In other words, their technical and tactical incompetence and/or their motivation to embarrass the administration has allowed the ISG to make proclamations about WMD stockpiles that minimize the significance of their findings, or deliberately downplay and contradict the findings of Coalition forces in the field. Such is the case with chemical weapons (CW) precursors.
The anti-war left and the media continuously shift the goal posts about WMD stockpiles. But what does the term “stockpile” mean for WMDs? One nuclear bomb is not really a “stockpile,” but it would only take one, set off in an American city or dropped on US forces in the field, to make everybody wake up and smell the coffee.
What did we expect to find in Iraq, the equivalent of the Pantex Plant? In fact, we did find hundreds of metric tons of yellowcake and low-enriched uranium. But I digress.
“Stockpiles” of biological weapons? A stockpile of bio-weapons can be kept in a fridge in a scientist’s house. Ricin and botulinum toxin have already been found in sufficient quantities to regenerate a biological weapon (BW) capability in short order. No, the standard established by the left and their allies in the media is that we must find chemical weapons (CW). That is, if the US has not found pallets of CW projectiles in ammo dumps or munitions factories or at Iraqi Army unit areas, well then that George Bush flat-out lied to us. In a fashion, the critics are correct concerning CW stockpiles. Here’s why.
Chemical weapons are very potent in small amounts in a sterile setting. Hence, the bit in movies where the leading man dips a pen into a glass of water and says something to the effect that “these few drops of nerve agent are enough to wipe out hundreds of thousands of people” is correct, but only if those people are crammed into the Silverdome. Chemical weapons have very important weaknesses: They can be destroyed by light, heat, water, and wind — that is, the weather — not to mention the heat from the explosive charge designed to disperse the agent. It is for this reason that CWs are employed en masse with strict targeting protocols, when attacking an army in the field.
Even if done properly, depending upon the equipment and training of your adversary, the killing and incapacitating effects may not be tactically significant. For these reasons, Saddam initially “tested” his CW on unsuspecting Kurd civilians to gain an accurate medical picture of chemical agent effects. Simply put, anyone contemplating use of CW needs a lot of it, and it must be delivered at the right time and place.
UNSCOM inspectors understood these factors when they concluded in 1995 that, at the time of Operation Desert Storm in January of 1991, Iraq had largely solved key technical issues. The problem of precursor storage and stabilization for VX, a powerful and persistent nerve agent was solved by Saddam’s scientists. In addition, UNSCOM noted the development of prototypes for binary sarin (non-persistent nerve agent) artillery shells and 122mm rockets. Binary rounds consist of two non-lethal substances that combine upon detonation to form a lethal agent.
The technically advanced binary nature of these projectiles was amazing enough, but they also had developed “quantities well beyond the prototype levels.” The DIA concurred with UNSCOM that Iraq had retained production equipment and chemical precursors to reconstitute a CW program absent an inspection regime.
Specifically, the DIA noted that Baghdad had rebuilt segments of its industrial chemical infrastructure under the “guise of a civilian need for pesticides, chlorine, and other legitimate chemical products.” Pesticides are the key elements in the chemical agent arena. In fact, the general pesticide chemical formula (organophosphate) is the “grandfather” of modern day nerve agents. Pesticides are also precursors of many other chemical weapons including Mustard-Lewisite (HL), Phosgene (CG) a choking agent, and Hydrogen Cyanide (AC) a blood agent.
It was not surprising then, as Coalition forces attacked into Iraq, that huge warehouses and caches of “commercial and agricultural” chemicals were seized and painstakingly tested by Army and Marine chemical specialists. What was surprising was how quickly the ISG refuted the findings of our ground forces, and how silent they have been on the significance of these caches.
US forces participating in Operation Iraqi Freedom had the latest chemical detection gear, including chemical detection paper, chemical agent detector kits, improved chemical agent monitors, and sophisticated Fox Chemical Recon Vehicles. Some American GIs remembered well the shortfalls of this equipment in Gulf War I. Now all of these older devices had been improved, and new and more accurate devices had been issued. In fact, some mobile Army labs had highly sensitive mass spectrometers to test for suspicious substances. Who could argue the results of repeated tests using these devices without explaining how DoD had apparently been ripped off by contractors for faulty products? Apparently, the ISG could and did.
One of the reported incidents occurred near Karbala where there appeared to be a very large “agricultural supply” area of 55-gallon drums of pesticide. In addition, there was also a camouflaged bunker complex full of these drums that some people entered with unpleasant results. More than a dozen soldiers, a Knight-Ridder reporter, a CNN cameraman, and two Iraqi POWs came down with symptoms consistent with exposure to nerve agent. A full day of tests on the drums resulted in one positive for nerve agent, and then one resulted in a negative. Later, an Army Fox NBC [nuclear, biological, chemical] Recon Vehicle confirmed the existence of Sarin. An officer from the 63d Chemical Company thought there might well be chemical weapons at the site.
But later ISG tests resulted in a proclamation of negative, end of story, nothing to see here, etc., and the earlier findings and injuries dissolved into non-existence. Left unexplained is the small matter of the obvious pains taken to disguise the cache of ostensibly legitimate pesticides. One wonders about the advantage an agricultural commodities business gains by securing drums of pesticide in camouflaged bunkers six feet underground. The “agricultural site” was also co-located with a military ammunition dump, evidently nothing more than a coincidence in the eyes of the ISG.
Another find occurred around the northern Iraqi town of Bai’ji, where elements of the 4th Infantry Division (Mech) discovered 55-gallon drums of a substance that mass spectrometer testing confirmed was cyclosarin and an unspecified blister agent. A mobile laboratory was also found nearby that could have been used to mix chemicals at the site. And only yards away, surface-to-surface and surface-to-air missiles, as well as gas masks were found. Of course, later tests by the experts revealed that these were only the ubiquitous pesticides that everybody was turning up. It seems that Iraqi soldiers were obsessed with keeping their ammo dumps insect-free, according to the reading of the evidence now enshrined by the conventional wisdom that “no WMD stockpiles have been discovered.”
Coalition forces continued to find evidence of CW after major combat operations had concluded. The US unit around Taji, just north of Baghdad discovered pesticides in one of the largest ammo dumps in Iraq. The unit wanted to use the ammo dump for their own operations, when they discovered the pesticides in “non-standard” drums that were smaller in diameter but much longer than the standard 55-gallon drums.
Then in January of this year, Danish forces discovered 120mm mortar shells with a mysterious liquid inside that initially tested positive for blister agents. Further tests in Southern Iraq and in the US were, of course, negative. The Danish Army said, “It is unclear why the initial field tests were wrong.” This is the understatement of the year, and also points to a most basic question: If it wasn’t a chemical agent, what was it? More pesticides? Dishwashing detergent? From this old soldier’s perspective, I gain nothing from putting a liquid in my mortar rounds unless that stuff will do bad things to the enemy.
Virtually all agencies concerned with Iraq’s WMD programs have reached the conclusion that Saddam was an expert at delay, dispersion, and deception. His nuclear program had restarted as reported earlier this year by Dr. Kay, the previous head of the ISG. Also, “seed agents” and other bio-toxins had been dispersed throughout Baghdad and Iraq to form the basis for the regeneration of a full-fledged BW program. This modus operandi was no different for the regeneration of Saddam’s chemical weapons program. Operating under the guise of legitimate industrial and agricultural chemical production and storage, Iraq would have gone into full-scale conversion of its stockpile of chemical precursors into weaponized agents, had the Coalition not attacked and seized Iraq.
What is stunning is that the ISG seems incapable of connecting the dots to present to the American people the clear evidence of Saddam’s flouting of 12 years of UN resolutions, and the grave consequences if we had failed to act. The ISG also owes a detailed explanation to DoD as to how 12 years of research, development, and money has apparently gone down the drain in the effort to upgrade the military’s chemical detection capability and NBC training regimen. That the ISG can consistently contradict other technical specialists, while ignoring years of UNSCOM and US intelligence assessments, without accountability is unconscionable, and must be rectified as soon as possible.

Douglas Hanson was a US Army cavalry reconnaissance officer for 20 years, and is a Gulf War I combat veteran. He was an Atomic Demolitions Munitions (ADM) Security Officer, and a Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Defense Officer. As a civilian analyst, he has worked on stability and support operations in Bosnia, and was initially an operations officer in the operations/intelligence cell of the Requirements Coordination Office of the CPA in Baghdad. He was later assigned as the Chief of Staff of the Ministry of Science and Technology.—quote—

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1110254/posts

I mentioned Saddam’s use of WMD against the Kurds in Northern Iraq in 1988 known as the Halabja poison gas attack.

How does the BBC rank with you for credibility amidst your Logical Fallacy?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/march/16/newsid_4304000/4304853.stm

Here is one with pretty pictures:
http://www.kdp.se/old/chemical.html

—Chicago—As usual, a right wing mutilation of the facts…—

I presented the facts as they are in reality. You have presented nothing. In fact, you have presented LESS than nothing. If you even knew that you have presented nothing that would be something. But you don’t. So I will ask the same question of you that I asked of that other “unhappy fellow”: Why do you prefer propaganda and lies to the truth and reality?

—Chicago—and alot of whining going on from the “tough” & “stoic” repugs.—

Similar to the same “whining” I have suffered for EIGHT YEARS from incompetent children, such as yourself, and the irrational hatred, demonetization, and vile put forth against George Bush and Republicans. There are many good reasons to dislike George Bush and or Republicans and I have yet to see ONE GOOD reason put forth by people of your “quality.” This is probably due to your child-like love affair with lies and half truths.

It is much easier to say Bush LIED about Iraq when he merely followed A DECADE of written law (both UN and US), the policies of a previous President (Bill’s official policy was Saddam was making WMDs and should be removed from power, want to see the speeches on youtube and read them? How about his missile attacks on Iraqi territory or his 8 years of using American fighters to bomb Iraqi territory?) and the US Congress (as many if not more Democrats than Republicans) and damn near every intelligence agency on earth said than it is to acknowledge the truth of the matter.

Speaking of a mutilation of the facts boyo…. you fools have managed one hell of a job.

—Chicago—You also seem to suggest in your last sentence that the Democrats keep inheriting a steaming pile from the Republicans each time we take office. To paraphrase my grandmother: I hope the republicans wipe their butts better than they ran our country!—

What was the unemployment and where was the DOW again from 2001 – 2006? *Scratches head*

Furthermore, Bush came to office with a SLIM Republican Majority in Congress which he PROMPTLY LOST (Remember Jim Jeffords when he switched his party affiliation?) in the Senate and soon after in the House. It did not help that a good chunk of the Republicans were what are known as RINO’s (Republicans In Name Only); e.g. John McCain.

Let us take a look at the Congressional make up these
last 8 years:
Senate:
2001 – 2003: 50/50 (R/D); then Jeffords in May leaves 49 / 50 / 1 (R/D/I) Senate Majority: Democrat (Tom Daschalle) Tie until May, Democrats hold 1 more
2003 – 2005: 51/48/1 (R/D/I); Republicans hold 3 more seats.
2005 – 2007: 55/44/1 (R/D/I) Reblicans hold 11 more seats.
2007 – 2009: 49/50/1 (R/D/I) (Technically Joe Liberman is I but he remains loyal despite being kicked in the ass). Senate Majority: Democrat (Harry Reid)
2009: 41/55/2/2 (R/D/I/Vacent) Senate Majority: Democrat (Harry Reid) Democrats hold 14 more seats.
http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/history/one_item_and_teasers/partydiv.htm

Notice Bush never had a clear super majority in the Senate and he certainly never had what Obama has now. Let us look at the house:

2001 – 2003: 221/212/2 (R/D/I); Speaker of the House: Republican; Republicans hold 9 more seats
2003 – 2005: 229/204/1/1 (R/D/I/Vacent); Speaker of the House: Rebpulican; Republicans hold 25 more seats
2005 – 2007: 232/202/1 (R/D/I) Speaker of the House: Republican; Republicans hold 30 more seats
2007 – 2009: 202/233/1 (R/D/Vacent) Speaker of the House: Democrat (Nancy Pelosi) Democrats hold 31 more seats
2009: 178/256/1 (R/D/Vacent) Speaker of the House: Democrat (Nancy Pelosi) Democrats hold 78 more seats
http://clerk.house.gov/art_history/house_history/partyDiv.html

You will notice that the ONLY TIME BUSH had a hold of the HOR and the Senate (and barely that of the Senate) at the SAME TIME was 2003 – 2007 and even that was made slimmer by the numerous RINOS (more so in the Senate than HOR) who obstructed his Appointments and the proposed Legislation he wanted passed.

That is 4 years or ONE TERM for Bush split between his first and second. You do not need a 2/3 majority to bring Congress to a GRINDING HALT.

Where the HELL is that Republican SUPER MAJORITY I have been hearing about; you know, the Republicans who ****ed everything up? Take a gander when Democrats expanded their leads in the Congress and plot that on the time line when things REALLY started to fall apart (2006 – 2008).

Now I mentioned two particular Democrats and their roles in the economic CLUSTER **** we had during this past election.

How about Chuck Schumer? Have you ever heard about something called IndyMac? Here is the LATimes for you:
—quote—Here’s from the press release issued by IndyMac’s regulator, the Office of Thrift Supervision: “The OTS has determined that the current institution, IndyMac Bank, is unlikely to be able to meet continued depositors’ demands in the normal course of business and is therefore in an unsafe and unsound condition. The immediate cause of the closing was a deposit run that began and continued after the public release of a June 26 letter to the OTS and the FDIC from Senator Charles Schumer of New York. The letter expressed concerns about IndyMac’s viability. In the following 11 business days, depositors withdrew more than $1.3 billion from their accounts.—endquote—
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/laland/2008/07/feds-cite-schum.html

In my day, we called that a RUN ON THE BANK!
How about Barney Frank? Her is the New York Times in 2003!!!:

—quote—”The plan is an acknowledgment by the administration that oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — which together have issued more than $1.5 trillion in outstanding debt — is broken. A report by outside investigators in July concluded that Freddie Mac manipulated its accounting to mislead investors, and critics have said Fannie Mae does not adequately hedge against rising interest rates. “…..
…”These two entities — Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac — are not facing any kind of financial crisis,” said Representative Barney Frank of Massachusetts, the ranking Democrat on the Financial Services Committee. ”The more people exaggerate these problems, the more pressure there is on these companies, the less we will see in terms of affordable housing.”
Representative Melvin L. Watt, Democrat of North Carolina, agreed.
”I don’t see much other than a shell game going on here, moving something from one agency to another and in the process weakening the bargaining power of poorer families and their ability to get affordable housing,” Mr. Watt said.”—endquote—

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E06E3D6123BF932A2575AC0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&&scp=3&sq=%202003%20fannie%20freddie%20labaton&st=cse

Outrageous! And you have the BALLS to claim conservatives mutilate the facts? Un-freaking-believable!

Jan 20, 2009 - 11:37 pm 66. Plato:

—Chicago—Why not point us to some of the easily found “truth” you find on the internets?—

Here is a particular quote:

Check the date.
http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/s99-94.htm

Here is an interesting explanation of the situation in Iraq (I am almost certain you will fall on your sword of Logical Fallacy on this one boyo):

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1110254/posts

Jan 20, 2009 - 11:39 pm 67. Plato:

Blast, please delete repost! My apologies to the Mods.

Jan 20, 2009 - 11:40 pm 68. cedarford:

Plato –

If you are making apologies, you might also apologize for your massive regurgitation of cut ‘n paste “Vast Secret Quantities of WMD Exist!” gruel retrived from circa 2004. Why do you spew page after page of nearly 5-year old crap here?

It was also rude in being completely off topic to the post.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:49 am 69. myth buster:

I’ve had enough of people saying Lincoln shredded the Constitution. Lincoln only had to WIN THE CIVIL WAR! Whatever people say that he was doing to “shred the Constitution” was a legitimate Act of War. Suspending Habeus Corpus? The Constitution specifically allows it in the case of rebellion. Controlling the press? Sedition is illegal. Printing currency without backing? Contrary to what many people say, the Constitution does not forbid the Federal Government from issuing unbacked currency. It forbids states from issuing their own currencies or declaring anything but silver or gold to be legal tender currency, but the Federal Government does not have any such restriction. The one legitimate argument is that a compulsory income tax was a violation of the Constitution prior to the passage of the 16th Amendment. Emancipation Proclamation? Specifically limited to the Confederacy to avert the unconstitutionality of freeing slaves without compensating the masters. It was unenforceable until the war was won, but it was the best Lincoln could do until the 13th Amendment was passed to free all the slaves and permanently ban the practice, except as punishment for a crime.

Jan 21, 2009 - 7:13 pm 70. Plato:

—cedarford: —If you are making apologies,—

People with class make apologies when they make mistakes. So far, you have demonstrated plenty of mistakes and ZERO class.

—cedarford: —you might also apologize for your massive regurgitation of cut ‘n paste “Vast Secret Quantities of WMD Exist!” gruel—

Feel free to chime in with something real and tangible to add to the discussion any time now. No really; any time now.

While you are at it, feel free to post something, anything that disputes what is in the article. Or is logical discourse beyond your means?

—cedarford: —retrived from circa 2004.—

Information presented in 2004 and BURIED in 2004. Information which contradicts these last six years of lies and propaganda. I see you have not bothered to respond to the links posted from the UN website hosting UN documents which demonstrate what I and others have been saying all along.

Perhaps this is related to the fact that your incompetence leads you to red herring (among other fallacies of logic) rather than address the truth at hand. Perhaps.

—cedarford: —Why do you spew page after page of nearly 5-year old crap here?—

Try READING. I know the concept is difficult for somebody of your intellect but it is very important. What I wrote was in direct response to what others have written in this post (before me I might add).

I suppose a bit of comprehension is too tiring an effort for you to muster eh boyo?

—cedarford: —It was also rude in being completely off topic to the post—

No it was not. Perhaps you should READ before you post in the future so your posts may actually house kernels of TRUTH rather than fallacy and LIES.

Jan 21, 2009 - 8:40 pm 71. Plato:

—myth buster: —I’ve had enough of people saying Lincoln shredded the Constitution.—

You may not like the truth of the matter but Lincoln did many things which either directly violated the Constitution or dwell in that lovely grey area between Legal and Illegal. This is made obvious when you look at the actions of the Congress who went out of their way to pass legislation, after Lincoln had acted, to make some of his deeds legal. Keep in mind, many of these laws were passed AFTER Lincoln had acted on a few specific issues.

—myth buster: —Lincoln only had to WIN THE CIVIL WAR! Whatever people say that he was doing to “shred the Constitution” was a legitimate Act of War.—

You need to rephrase this statement: the Founding Fathers did not intend for the US Constitution to be a suicide pact and Lincoln knew this. This means that, at times, Lincoln either cast aside or ignored the Constitution (or, Shredded for a time) to accomplish a greater good: the preservation of the Union.

I did not mean to impugn Lincoln’s motives or honor but merely point out the historical truth of the matter.

—myth buster: —Suspending Habeus Corpus? The Constitution specifically allows it in the case of rebellion.—

I never mentioned the suspension of the Writ of Liberty but that does not mean there were not issues here (as the Supreme Court Ruled after the fact).

While the suspension of Writ of Liberty is in the Constitution (Article 1, Section 9), the Constitution does not spell out which party actually has the authority to do so. Of course, this became a moot issue soon after the proclamation with Congressional law specifically addressing the issue but the Supreme Court in Ex parte Milligan did have some harsh things to say about Lincoln’s actions; particularly the fact he basically removed the courts from areas not in open sedition against the United States and in areas where the courts still operated.

The act of creating or removing courts (basically what he did) is a power SPECIFICALLY enumerated to the Congress; not the President. Lincoln used military tribunals to try anybody and everybody doing anything he or his military commanders disapproved of. While the act of suspending the writ of Liberty in and of itself is not Unconstitutional, the extreme scope and nature in which Lincoln acted following the suspension was in direct conflict with the Constitution (BoR, Amendments 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10).

The most famous count is probably that of Congressman (former at the time) Clement L. Vallandigham who was forcibly arrested, detained, tried by military tribunal (by General Burnside no less, the incompetent fool responsible for the Fredericksburg massacre; although to be fair, he knew he was incompetent and only took the job out of some misplaced sense of duty) and banished from the United States. And to think, people railed against Bush for imprisoning murderers and terrorists; Lincoln had a man, a former Congressman no less BANISHED from the USA simply because he offended one of Lincoln’s incompetent Generals after a quick SHOW TRIAL by men who had an axe to grind against the man.

—myth buster: —Controlling the press? Sedition is illegal.—

Lincoln went beyond sedition with his acts when it came to the press but you are quite right; sedition is illegal.

—myth buster: —Printing currency without backing? Contrary to what many people say, the Constitution does not forbid the Federal Government from issuing unbacked currency. It forbids states from issuing their own currencies or declaring anything but silver or gold to be legal tender currency, but the Federal Government does not have any such restriction.—

I did not mention the currency issue because, as you say, it is not unconstitutional. However, now that we are on the subject of money:

How about a President appropriating and spending money himself (with out the Congress)? This is illegal and unconstitutional.

How about a President increasing the size of the US military and US navy with out the Congress? This is illegal and unconstitutional.

Out of curiosity, which part of the Constitution allows the President to forcibly conscript citizens into an army (prior to Congressional law)?

—myth buster: —The one legitimate argument is that a compulsory income tax was a violation of the Constitution prior to the passage of the 16th Amendment.—

That is not the only legitimate argument. How about sending soldiers into a state that had not been yet seceded from the Union? What gave him this authority (yes I understand why he did so, having D.C. surrounded on ALL SIDES by Confederate States would have been somewhat problematic)? Oh and contrary to what my fellow Marylanders would say today, Maryland WOULD have seceded had Lincoln not intervened. However, the point stands: what gave him the right BEFORE the act had taken place (or even after the fact for the matter)?

What about Lincoln using federal troops to influence state elections (Maryland) through force? What gave him this authority?

What about Lincoln seizing property from citizens who, as Lincoln himself claimed, had not left the union (to him, they could not) with out just compensation or due process? The Supreme Court ruled later on this one in particular and sided with land owners (ever heard the phrase “My 40 acres and a mule?” This is where it came from; thank Sherman for that).

—myth buster: —Emancipation Proclamation? Specifically limited to the Confederacy to avert the unconstitutionality of freeing slaves without compensating the masters.—

Correct; it was not unconstitutional; it was just a toothless ploy to incite the Confederacy and an attempt to play international games with certain foreign powers who were watching this little affair.

— myth buster: —It was unenforceable until the war was won, but it was the best Lincoln could do until the 13th Amendment was passed to free all the slaves and permanently ban the practice, except as punishment for a crime.—

…and to his credit, Lincoln pushed for the 13th Amendment (even after it failed in the HoR and even campaigned on it in 1864) even though he had once said that if he could preserve the Union with out freeing a slave, he would do so (paraphrased, his first Inaugural address). What irony that Georgia would be the last necessary ratification vote to pass the 13th Amendment some months after his incredibly tragic assassination.

I understand your defense of Lincoln. He was a complex and good man who did the impossible: he preserved the United States of America when any other nation would have fallen apart. More so he did so despite his wife’s excessive spending habits and bouts of insanity (to be fair, the deaths of her beloved Children did not help the matter nor did the assassination of her Husband). However this does not change history. He did what he did. I understand what he did and I understand why he did what he did. I did not say that Lincoln “shredded” the Constitution to poke a stick in his eye but merely to point out the history of the matter.

He made touch decisions. Furthermore, even the Founding Fathers would agree with me (and Lincoln) that the Constitution is NOT a suicide pact. There are times when the Constitution must be bent a bit or put aside. Obviously, this is very, VERY dangerous territory for which I do not like to tread which endures to this day.

Jan 21, 2009 - 10:45 pm 72. goy:

Plato… Bravo!

Jan 22, 2009 - 6:01 pm 73. steve:

“The House Democrats’ bill will cost each and every household $6,700 additional debt, paid for by our children and grandchildren.”

Nary a word that the cost of Bush’s Iraq war (now $12 billion a month) will cost our children and grandchildren much more as he put it all on the nation’s credit card

Jan 27, 2009 - 9:13 am

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The GOP Wises Up

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