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	<title>Comments on: The Hidden Death Toll of Higher CAFE Standards</title>
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		<title>By: Eric Florack</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-322762</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Florack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-322762</guid>
		<description>Is DS really Exhorting us to take the word of yet another government agency?  With the abysmal record that such agencies have, particularity and the differences between their test applications, there are estimates, and what ends up happening out here and the real world, does not believe us to take such government agency reports with a grain of salt ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is DS really Exhorting us to take the word of yet another government agency?  With the abysmal record that such agencies have, particularity and the differences between their test applications, there are estimates, and what ends up happening out here and the real world, does not believe us to take such government agency reports with a grain of salt ?</p>
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		<title>By: Larsen E. Whipsnade</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-321704</link>
		<dc:creator>Larsen E. Whipsnade</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:59:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-321704</guid>
		<description>60. eon: &quot;If your primary objective in being on the road is “fun”, try bicycling&quot;  

You&#039;re kidding! Have you ever tried to get a bl*wj*b on a bicycle?  

70. Delia: &quot;Which will make EVERYTHING cost more that has to be ‘trucked’ in . . .&quot;

Not just fuel will cost more.  Has everyone forgotten already that PLASTIC comes from petroleum.  The cost of plastic will go through the roof.  Maybe America under the Dems can make do with hemp instead of plastic, but it won&#039;t be pretty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>60. eon: &#8220;If your primary objective in being on the road is “fun”, try bicycling&#8221;  </p>
<p>You&#8217;re kidding! Have you ever tried to get a bl*wj*b on a bicycle?  </p>
<p>70. Delia: &#8220;Which will make EVERYTHING cost more that has to be ‘trucked’ in . . .&#8221;</p>
<p>Not just fuel will cost more.  Has everyone forgotten already that PLASTIC comes from petroleum.  The cost of plastic will go through the roof.  Maybe America under the Dems can make do with hemp instead of plastic, but it won&#8217;t be pretty.</p>
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		<title>By: Delia</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-320914</link>
		<dc:creator>Delia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:00:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-320914</guid>
		<description>Oops. -And, as to topic:

&quot;The cost of CAFE will far outweigh the costs of buying more fuel, even at today’s inflated prices.&quot;

Agreed. Which will make EVERYTHING cost more that has to be &#039;trucked&#039; in. Food prices will sky-rocket and not only because of &#039;trucking&#039; fuels but also farm equipment that relies on fuel.

NOT PRETTY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops. -And, as to topic:</p>
<p>&#8220;The cost of CAFE will far outweigh the costs of buying more fuel, even at today’s inflated prices.&#8221;</p>
<p>Agreed. Which will make EVERYTHING cost more that has to be &#8216;trucked&#8217; in. Food prices will sky-rocket and not only because of &#8216;trucking&#8217; fuels but also farm equipment that relies on fuel.</p>
<p>NOT PRETTY.</p>
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		<title>By: Delia</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-320907</link>
		<dc:creator>Delia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:57:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-320907</guid>
		<description>67. Torqued Marine (USMC):

&quot;I am glad to hear that i was just reading to much into your comments, and you are fine. My mother has spoken very highly of you on Pajamas.&quot;

Awwwwww. Send her a hug for me. :)

Maybe one day I&#039;ll brave starting my own blog too. Right now I&#039;m scattered in too many directions though. 

You&#039;re a sweetheart and I thank you for the kind words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>67. Torqued Marine (USMC):</p>
<p>&#8220;I am glad to hear that i was just reading to much into your comments, and you are fine. My mother has spoken very highly of you on Pajamas.&#8221;</p>
<p>Awwwwww. Send her a hug for me. <img src='http://pajamasmedia.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Maybe one day I&#8217;ll brave starting my own blog too. Right now I&#8217;m scattered in too many directions though. </p>
<p>You&#8217;re a sweetheart and I thank you for the kind words.</p>
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		<title>By: Torqued Marine (USMC)</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-319799</link>
		<dc:creator>Torqued Marine (USMC)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:06:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-319799</guid>
		<description>When I was stationed in 29 Palms Ca. I would go to my home some 90 miles away in Palmdale. I drove a 1976 Ford Granada 4 door. One weekend on my way back to base, I was run off the road by a drunk driver. I was doing about 60 miles an hour when I hit the cliff side. My neck was sore and the only damage to my car was a flat tire, broken head lite, and fender was bent.

Had that been one of those little pieces of plastic, the least would have been a totaled car, the worst of course, death. 

Give me steel over plastic any day.

Semper Fi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was stationed in 29 Palms Ca. I would go to my home some 90 miles away in Palmdale. I drove a 1976 Ford Granada 4 door. One weekend on my way back to base, I was run off the road by a drunk driver. I was doing about 60 miles an hour when I hit the cliff side. My neck was sore and the only damage to my car was a flat tire, broken head lite, and fender was bent.</p>
<p>Had that been one of those little pieces of plastic, the least would have been a totaled car, the worst of course, death. </p>
<p>Give me steel over plastic any day.</p>
<p>Semper Fi.</p>
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		<title>By: Torqued Marine (USMC)</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-319752</link>
		<dc:creator>Torqued Marine (USMC)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-319752</guid>
		<description>61. Delia:

No problem, I posted your comment. I hope you like the blog. I mainly started it to vent. I realized that this would be a good way to get out the simple truths of things related to the Constitution. Which of course is the way the Constitution was meant to be (simple).

I am glad to hear that i was just reading to much into your comments, and you are fine. My mother has spoken very highly of you on Pajamas. 

Semper Fi.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>61. Delia:</p>
<p>No problem, I posted your comment. I hope you like the blog. I mainly started it to vent. I realized that this would be a good way to get out the simple truths of things related to the Constitution. Which of course is the way the Constitution was meant to be (simple).</p>
<p>I am glad to hear that i was just reading to much into your comments, and you are fine. My mother has spoken very highly of you on Pajamas. </p>
<p>Semper Fi.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Florack</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-319628</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Florack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-319628</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I’ve never seen a compact car flipped on the roof on my way to the mountain, &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I have. It was one of the thimble-on-wheels fatalities I mentioned in the article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I’ve never seen a compact car flipped on the roof on my way to the mountain, </p></blockquote>
<p>I have. It was one of the thimble-on-wheels fatalities I mentioned in the article.</p>
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		<title>By: LennyB</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-319594</link>
		<dc:creator>LennyB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-319594</guid>
		<description>DS, of course cars with a higher center of gravity are increasingly likely to roll over, depending on their wheel base.  Not only does this do nothing to prove your point (it is common knowledge that big cars are also dangerous machines), but it reveals something more subtle at work in your arguments:  driver error is a mighty big contributor to such accidents.  Predictably, you chose to ignore driver error and seek to attribute the safety to engineering when it can be made to suggest big cars are unsafe relative to small cars; yet, you do the exact opposite by calling attention to driver error when it is necessary to your argument to suggest that safety is not dependent on weight.  It&#039;s simple physics.  But don&#039;t take it from me, take it from the link you supplied, which says:

    &quot;NHTSA categorizes vehicles by vehicle class and &quot;curb&quot; weight. &quot;... &quot;Side crash rating results can be compared across all classes because all vehicles are hit with the same force by the same moving barrier.

    Rollover ratings can also be compared across all classes.

    Frontal crash rating results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same class and whose weight is plus or minus 250 lbs of the vehicle being rated. This is so because a frontal crash rating into a fixed barrier represents a crash between two vehicles of the same weight. Examples:

        * It would not be permissible to compare the frontal crash results of a 4,500 lb SUV with those of a 3,000 sedan (different classes and exceeds the weight requirement).
        * It would not be permissible to compare the frontal crash results of a 3,600 lb pickup with those of a 3,400 lb van (meets the weight requirement, but different classes).
        * It would be correct to compare the frontal crash results of a 3,400 lb passenger car with a 3650 lb passenger car (same class and meets the weight requirement).&quot;

Here, the NHTSA is acknowledging a basic fact of physics which you seem perfectly willing to ignore: force is the issue.  Meaning that relative mass is important with regard to relative safety.  And if you&#039;ll forgive me the pun, I believe the entire point of this thread is that mass is indeed a driving force behind auto safety. 

Now, just because rollover risk is presented by NHTSA as one of three ratings does not confer it equal standing in terms of risk.  It is simply one of the very bad things that can happen in a vehicle that they can precisely measure.  In fact, I submit that is the only one of the three that driver error is the dominant factor, meaning that if you drive an SUV safely, you can virtually eliminate this risk.  Other drivers cannot force you to roll-over if you are cognizant of this risk.  Meanwhile, not so for the frontal and side crash ratings, which depend equally on one&#039;s own actions behind the wheel as on a) those of others, and b) those of other animate and inanimate objects.  Even though those ratings don&#039;t help your arguments, I think they are the ones that are of primary importance and of primary relevance with regard to CAFE.

In a frontal or side crash between a Honda Civic and a Chevy Caprice, 1994 or today, the Honda Civic loses every time.  And my point is that police officers have seen this sad reality up front.  And you can bet that if the Civic held up in such a crash, they would be talking that up and putting their wives in them, which they don&#039;t do.  They are after all cheaper, and officers don&#039;t make that much money.

Nobody should have to volunteer to die, or sacrifice their own family, in the name of misguided policies the ends of which are chiefly social.  What&#039;s more, it&#039;s not even about conservation, which I find completely galling as conservation appeals to everyone and especially me. 

Seriously DS.  Read Eric&#039;s post #59.  It is worth something to at least acknowledge what those are in a position to know about safety do in practice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DS, of course cars with a higher center of gravity are increasingly likely to roll over, depending on their wheel base.  Not only does this do nothing to prove your point (it is common knowledge that big cars are also dangerous machines), but it reveals something more subtle at work in your arguments:  driver error is a mighty big contributor to such accidents.  Predictably, you chose to ignore driver error and seek to attribute the safety to engineering when it can be made to suggest big cars are unsafe relative to small cars; yet, you do the exact opposite by calling attention to driver error when it is necessary to your argument to suggest that safety is not dependent on weight.  It&#8217;s simple physics.  But don&#8217;t take it from me, take it from the link you supplied, which says:</p>
<p>    &#8220;NHTSA categorizes vehicles by vehicle class and &#8220;curb&#8221; weight. &#8220;&#8230; &#8220;Side crash rating results can be compared across all classes because all vehicles are hit with the same force by the same moving barrier.</p>
<p>    Rollover ratings can also be compared across all classes.</p>
<p>    Frontal crash rating results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same class and whose weight is plus or minus 250 lbs of the vehicle being rated. This is so because a frontal crash rating into a fixed barrier represents a crash between two vehicles of the same weight. Examples:</p>
<p>        * It would not be permissible to compare the frontal crash results of a 4,500 lb SUV with those of a 3,000 sedan (different classes and exceeds the weight requirement).<br />
        * It would not be permissible to compare the frontal crash results of a 3,600 lb pickup with those of a 3,400 lb van (meets the weight requirement, but different classes).<br />
        * It would be correct to compare the frontal crash results of a 3,400 lb passenger car with a 3650 lb passenger car (same class and meets the weight requirement).&#8221;</p>
<p>Here, the NHTSA is acknowledging a basic fact of physics which you seem perfectly willing to ignore: force is the issue.  Meaning that relative mass is important with regard to relative safety.  And if you&#8217;ll forgive me the pun, I believe the entire point of this thread is that mass is indeed a driving force behind auto safety. </p>
<p>Now, just because rollover risk is presented by NHTSA as one of three ratings does not confer it equal standing in terms of risk.  It is simply one of the very bad things that can happen in a vehicle that they can precisely measure.  In fact, I submit that is the only one of the three that driver error is the dominant factor, meaning that if you drive an SUV safely, you can virtually eliminate this risk.  Other drivers cannot force you to roll-over if you are cognizant of this risk.  Meanwhile, not so for the frontal and side crash ratings, which depend equally on one&#8217;s own actions behind the wheel as on a) those of others, and b) those of other animate and inanimate objects.  Even though those ratings don&#8217;t help your arguments, I think they are the ones that are of primary importance and of primary relevance with regard to CAFE.</p>
<p>In a frontal or side crash between a Honda Civic and a Chevy Caprice, 1994 or today, the Honda Civic loses every time.  And my point is that police officers have seen this sad reality up front.  And you can bet that if the Civic held up in such a crash, they would be talking that up and putting their wives in them, which they don&#8217;t do.  They are after all cheaper, and officers don&#8217;t make that much money.</p>
<p>Nobody should have to volunteer to die, or sacrifice their own family, in the name of misguided policies the ends of which are chiefly social.  What&#8217;s more, it&#8217;s not even about conservation, which I find completely galling as conservation appeals to everyone and especially me. </p>
<p>Seriously DS.  Read Eric&#8217;s post #59.  It is worth something to at least acknowledge what those are in a position to know about safety do in practice.</p>
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		<title>By: David S</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-319303</link>
		<dc:creator>David S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-319303</guid>
		<description>If you want to compare safety ratings, here is the direct link &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.13dd5c887c7e1358fefe0a2f35a67789/?vgnextoid=4ecd2bc586d7a110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;to safercar.gov&lt;/a&gt;

I just took a quick look and saw that the 1994 model year Honda Civic I own has a better safety rating than a 1994 Chevy Caprice.  Tell me again how the police know so much about safety?

Just because your trusted sources say it, doesn&#039;t mean it&#039;s true.  Check the numbers.

Peace.

DS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you want to compare safety ratings, here is the direct link <a href="http://www.safercar.gov/portal/site/safercar/menuitem.13dd5c887c7e1358fefe0a2f35a67789/?vgnextoid=4ecd2bc586d7a110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD" rel="nofollow">to safercar.gov</a></p>
<p>I just took a quick look and saw that the 1994 model year Honda Civic I own has a better safety rating than a 1994 Chevy Caprice.  Tell me again how the police know so much about safety?</p>
<p>Just because your trusted sources say it, doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s true.  Check the numbers.</p>
<p>Peace.</p>
<p>DS</p>
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		<title>By: David S</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/the-hidden-human-toll-of-higher-cafe-standards/comment-page-2/#comment-319292</link>
		<dc:creator>David S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jul 2009 21:21:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=59988#comment-319292</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://auto.howstuffworks.com/28002-rollover-accidents-explained.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Link correction&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://auto.howstuffworks.com/28002-rollover-accidents-explained.htm" rel="nofollow">Link correction</a></p>
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