Pajamas Media

83 Comments

1. bob:

Well yeah, they’ve declared themselves.

Given a dovecote, they will kill
the chicks.

Give them a greenhouse, they loot it for the plumbing.

Mar 8, 2009 - 1:10 am 2. johan:

Only a consistent defense on the part of the West to defend shared values in our lands will make further encroachments here=Norway difficult..
With the calamity of the Obama Administration many nations/tribes thoroughout the Mid-East must be hoping for more inroads into government and officialdom with us, cf. Yemen=home to attacks on USS Cole in 2000..

With a strenghtened Republican party come 2010 this can, in fact, happen!
Multiculturalism has never worked in nations weak of spirit and with flaccid leaders such as Europe(Germany,Scandinavia,(parts of) France, Belgium and Holland…nor either in SMB=Small-Minded Britain..

A sustained war between Israel and remnants of Hamas,Hezbollah and other groups can bolster native will to grow free of slavery in Arabia, but Obama may not attempt further reductions in military budgets and personnell if he wants to convince e.g. Taliban that he is a leader..

For the present he is a paper tiger, and may bring us all further to the brink if he does not get his own Rumsfeld. The current James Jones may prove to be useless!

Mar 8, 2009 - 1:40 am 3. Blackwater:

A lot of the arabs I talked to said they like being ruled by a royal family. I asked them what happens when they get a bad ruler and wouldn’t it be better if they could vote crummy leaders out of power. They replied that they just assinate them. No need for democracy as a check and balance on power. Quite a system they got there. Welcome to the Dark Ages.

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:32 am 4. JHM:

“So flattering to have a pupil who does it wiythout understanding it.”

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:40 am 5. abu yussif:

interesting that in this article the word “arab” is synonymous with “muslim”. yet also interesting that the non-arab muslims throughout the world with the same radical tendencies and are in complete unity with the so-called “arab” brand of islam (as depicted in this article) happen to be under the influence of “arab” culture instead of islamic-driven dictates, and not the other way around. hard for me to understand how jew-hating is an “arab” concept as opposed to an institutionalized islamic one.

Mar 8, 2009 - 4:20 am 6. Blackwater:

Agree with #5. I think the real problem is islamic intolerance and fanatacism which I think islam itself preaches. I once had a devout muslim friend and he told me we could be friends but we’d never be brothers. That was his exact words. I don’t see that same type of attitude from Christians and Jews.

Mar 8, 2009 - 5:49 am 7. Canuckistani:

The Italians controlled the Catholic Church because Rome is in Italy. The Arabs control Islam because Mecca is in Arabia. Could it be that simple? Anyway, as religions go, they’ve both been quite useful to various political leaders at different times. Islam as a political movement is on the rise. Now the question is, can Democracy defend itself?

Mar 8, 2009 - 8:43 am 8. john from cinncinatti:

Modernity, and its concept of individual rights, is Western in origin. It evolved through centuries of philosophical and political debates:
the response to Christianity was Islam.
the West continues to contort itself in making apologies for the colonialism that ended some time ago:
however Islamic colonialism is alive and well and has its own version of manifest destiny, and their contortions are mainly on the effort of making it palatable to the west.

Mar 8, 2009 - 9:00 am 9. abu yussif:

7 – so the greek orthodox church, russian orthodox, copts, and protestants relate to rome in which way? just curious.

and, according to your logic, the shi’ia are also arab-controlled? and the pakistanis receive their orders from the wahabbist saudis?

Mar 8, 2009 - 9:06 am 10. john from cinncinatti:

canuckistani: the catholic church came out of Judea, and the catholic church had a Martin Luther to call them on their excesses, where is the muslim Martin Luther?

Mar 8, 2009 - 9:07 am 11. Camaron:

Islam is a totalitarian ideology, not a religion. We know all we need to know about Islam: it is a vicious, narrow-minded, murderous, intolerant and an undemocratic cult – opposite of anything the west stands for.

To save ourselves, we need to keep it out of the United States.

Well, too late …

Mar 8, 2009 - 9:29 am 12. dan:

Poor Arabs.

Mar 8, 2009 - 10:10 am 13. Nan G:

Thanks for the article.
I appreciated the explanation of why some Muslims keep fleeing their Islamic country then, safe in a fee land, turn into the very oppresives they fled out of ”remourse and guilt.”
But I think that fear also plays a huge role in motivating many Muslims.
You can look at the mass all praying in a public square and not be able to tell apart the extremist follower from the frightened-into-submission follower.

Mar 8, 2009 - 10:36 am 14. David M.- Europe:

Why should Arabs and Muslims accept modernity when the West, by practicing multiculturalism, moral equivalency and diversity nonsense, calls their backwardness, brutality and hatred of freedom as a culture? There are astounding similarities between Communism, Fascism and Islam. The West fought Communism and Fascism but has lost its will to fight the new enemy of modernity, humanity and freedom. For the information of our new Chamberlains, Barack Hussein and Gordon Brown, the enemy is called I.S.L.A.M.

Mar 8, 2009 - 1:28 pm 15. Don:

Abu Yussef: Yes, the Pakistanis DO practice Wahabbism as taught in their Suadi funded madrassas. Not just in the tribal areas of FATA and Waziristan and Peshawar and Swat, but in downtown Lahore (the cultural center and most “liberal” city in Pakistan)by the tens of hundreds of mosques/madrassas and hundreds of thousands of innocent young minds (being taught to hate anything and everything unIslamic). Karachi is a hotbed of Saudi Wahabbism, and we all know about the Red Mosque and its dozens of affiliates in Islamabad. Wahabbi madrassas funded by the Saudis aren´t just in Arabia, and not just in Islamic or Muslim-majority countriees; they are in Australia, the US, Canada, Britain, and all throughout Western Europe. They are destroying the minds of Muslim youth all over the world and putting Western peoples in danger.

Mar 8, 2009 - 1:47 pm 16. Paul:

For a scholarly treatment of this, see “The Arab Mind” by Raphael Patai. He goes into detail about the differences between Arab/Muslim thought and Western thought, and some of the reasons for these differences.

abu yussif (5):

interesting that in this article the word “arab” is synonymous with “muslim”.

Yes it is true that Arab and Muslim are not synonomous; it is also true that many things that are attributed to Muslim teaching are more properly due to Arab ways of thinking. However for many reasons the Arabs and their ways of thinking drive Islam and its teachings, so the two are deeply intertwined.

Patai notes several modes of Arab thought that are critical to the understanding of modern Islamic terrorism. The first of these is that the Arabs, and by extrapolation many Muslims, see themselves as a fallen and stagnant civilization – from their heights in the 14th’s century – and Western civilization as upstart children who are not properly respectful. Basically they’re ashamed that they have lost the ability to innovate and conduct science and technology, and blame us for it.

Secondly, you need to understand how deeply ingrained Islam is into the everyday thinking and practices of these people. There is no separation of church and state under Islam, it controls every facet of your life. Perhaps rightly so, but while they want the goodies coming from Western civilization, at the same time they blame us for corrupting their young and indeed their entire civilization.

Third, all Muslims see themselves as living in the “House of Islam”. All other peoples are of the “House of War”. Any land that was Muslim is always Muslim, all infidels have two choices: convert or die. (Christians and Jews have the additional option to pay the dhimmi tax and live as second-class citizens.

Finally, a point from another, Christian, author (I misplaced the exact source): All of Islam’s practices exist to please Allah. However, Muslims also believe in what is essentially predestination – there is no way to know, until you die, that you have pleased Him enough to get into heaven. The only way to assure this is to die as a martyr.

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:04 pm 17. Paul:

Canuckistani (#7)
Yes, basically it is that simple. Of course the Roman Catholic Church isn’t all of Christianity, no matter what it’s claims. However, as pointed out above there is no good way to separate the Arab way of thinking from the Muslim.

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:07 pm 18. Paul:

john from cinncinatti:

the [Roman]catholic church had a Martin Luther to call them on their excesses….

One problem: Martin Luther was a reformer. His principle teaching was that the Roman Catholic Church had fallen away from the true teachings of Christ, and was able to demonstrate exactly from Scripture why this was so.

Unfortunately the Wahabbi’s areultra-orthodox and basically are the equivalent of the Reform movement. They hold, and can demonstrate from the Koran and other Muslim authorities precisely why they are correct. It’s a fundamental problem (pardon the pun).

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:12 pm 19. Professor Guvinoff:

I found this article very useful. Here are my two pennies on the topic:

What we call “modernity” is in fact the manifestation of the west’s accomplishments, such as individual freedom, elected representation, technology, freedom of speech etc… and this is precisely what today’s muslims are so worked up about, in some cases quietly, in other cases vociferously and violently. We can say “the West” all we want, but if God forbids the religious dimension of all this should be considered, it’s the Judeo-Christian civilization we are really talking about.

No wonder the secular muslims, as described in this article, have started to be mobilized some 90 years ago by the writings of Hassan Al-bannah, Sayyid Kutb and their followers, shortly after the collapse of the Ottoman empire in the aftermath of WWI. The renewed interest in the ultimate dominance of Islam is only a distant echo of the muslim conquests between the 6th and 17th centuries, a call for the return to Islamic glory and hegemony, as commanded by Allah and practiced by his prophet Muhammed, the muslim “role model” as one might say in today’s parlance.

The last significant defeat of jihad (before GWB) was when John the King of Poland came to the rescue of Vienna, and pushed the Turcs back. Two so-called “anecdotes” about this historically significant defeat of Jihad:

One, it happened on September 11, 1683. If you think this is a coincidence, keep in mind that the odds are 365-to-one against you.

Two, the next morning the bakers of Vienna bent their traditionally straight pastry into the curved shape which is known today by its French name, the “croissant”. The people of Vienna were celebrating the in-extremis lifting of the muslim siege (which was about to destroy their sovereignty) by eating the symbol of Islam for breakfast, and why not?

GWB’s initiatives in Afghanistan and Iraq are the beginning of the West’s reaction to the arab’s reaction to modernity, the most recent wave of which started some 90 years ago. It will take a while. At this stage the west is handicapped by widespread ignorance regarding Islam. Most Westerners still see the militancy of Islam as a superficial anomaly of minimal significance, not as an authentic and fundamental principle of islam.

What is probably at play is what is called “projection” in psychology: If Islam is a religion, it must be peaceful! Such a judgment is a reflection of one’s Christian inheritance, whether it is conscious or not, not a reflection of whatever the teachings of the Quran might be if you don’t know anything about what’s in the book.

At the same time, and through a similar intellectual misfiring, most muslim firmly believe that the west is determined to pillage them.

This is a perfectly logical prognostic in the light of the islamic epistemology. If you have been given a burning desire for conquest from your early years, it is hard to imagine than the other entry in the race could possibly be uninterested in winning by sheer force, particularly when they have the technical advantage.

Paranoia is not a state of mind that appears spontaneously, out of the blue. It is the ultimate progression of a pathological certainty of one’s superiority by grant, not by merit. So what to do?

Two things I found useful: Getting some knowledge of the books of Islam. Informative websites such as http://www.jihadwatch.org/ or http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/ can point you in useful directions of study. The second thing is don’t let anyone touch your freedom of expression. The truth must be spoken, even when it runs against some prescription of politeness.

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:21 pm 20. typos_R_us:

“Islam is a totalitarian ideology, not a religion.”

Actually, it is both. While not synonyms, They might as well be cousins. Over time, ideology becomes religion and religion becomes ideology. Look to socialism AND Capitalism for examples. Both started as ideas, solutions to certain problems. Both became religions. I’m using religion in the manner of the USSC, in that it is a belief system that has no underlying evidence to support it.
Good article, although there isn’t really anything that Huntington didn’t point out in ‘93.

http://www.amazon.com/Clash-Civilizations-Remaking-World-Order/dp/0684844419

It must really piss off his detractors to have ol’ Sam turn out to be correct. We are at the start of a new crusade.
Those Westerners that have intermittent contact with reality want to ‘understand’ Islam and reach an accommodation with the Dar al-Islam. Those westerners that have lived and worked in Islamic nations know the only accommodation possible between the West and Islam is that reached between a wood chipper and a branch. A Dog and a lamb chop.

Mar 8, 2009 - 3:58 pm 21. Joe Kaffir:

You just can’t teach an old 7th century barbaric desert savage new tricks.

Mar 8, 2009 - 4:22 pm 22. Frank:

Islam is inherently antithetical to modern concepts like liberalism and unalienable rights. Until Islam ceases to exist in its current form, the vast, vast majority of the Muslim world will gladly and willingly remain under the sway of tyranny.

Mar 8, 2009 - 5:38 pm 23. filthykafir:

“But the defeat of two tyrannies and their accompanying ideologies… opens a new chapter for Muslims to prove to themselves they can be free people respecting of individual liberty and making progress with a better and reformed understanding of Islam.”

I challenge that this can ever happen, i.e. that muslims can, in fact, practice freedom, respect liberty, and make progress, while still under the oppressive totalitarian and militaristic influence of mohammedan islam.

Rather than send Americans and other Westerners to their deaths in the, to my thinking, futile attempt to “free” and “modernize” muslims, I suggest the following plan. Isolate the core arab/islamic parts of the world. Prevent them from obtaining weapons of mass destruction, particularly nuclear weapons. Stop paying the jizya of oil purchases (we could achieve this goal within five years). Then, we let muslims themselves decide whether they wish to modernize, or die. If they do not embrace modernity, the islamic world will collapse to starvation level within ten years.

Other than to defend ourselves militarily against arab/muslim imperialist aggression, islam need present no impediment to our progress or freedom. All that stands (squats) in the way is the spineless multiculturalism of our fascist-appeasing opinion leaders — both political and intellectual. Once we are shed of them, the fate of islam and of muslims will not be an issue for the rest of us.

Mar 8, 2009 - 6:22 pm 24. filthykafir:

Thank you, Professor Guvinoff, for your insightful and historically and psychologically accurate comments. Thanks also for enlightening me about the origin and significance of croissants. Vienna akhbar!

Mar 8, 2009 - 6:38 pm 25. WestGuard:

Maybe AA should expand it’s business model to incude “Islam Anonymous Deprogramming Centers” for those who wish to assimilate into the modern world.

Mar 8, 2009 - 8:06 pm 26. Professor Guvinoff:

The author of this article is offering us a valuable personal testimony.

Muslims who come to the West can either allow their inner conflict to fester (Enjoying the benefits of the west and hating its culture at the same time) or make the authentically personal decision to think for himself or herself, basically adopting the western value of individual independence, wherever it may lead. I think this demands a lot of personal courage, and deserves our praise. It certainly receives the opprobrium of their societies of origin.

Salim Mansour, welcome to liberty, and thanks for the compliment!

Some individuals who had the good fortune to be born in the west also spend a lot of time and effort despising it. Perhaps Salim Mansour can inspire them as well?

filthykafir, thanks for your kind words. Croissant akhbar!

Mar 8, 2009 - 8:41 pm 27. Philip Saenz:

Martin Luther was a “REFORMER”? Tsk, tsk. From Martin Luther came thousands of contrdictory Protestant sects. Just exactly what did Martin Luther and thousands of contradictory Protestant sects reform?

Mar 9, 2009 - 12:12 am 28. Liber:

@Philip Saenz

Tsk, tsk, somebody has not done his homework.

Luther published a tract with the title “De Libertate Christiana” (On the Freedom of a Christian) in 1520. Part of his argument was that a Christian was in the state of grace by faith alone, not by submission under the order of the church, which he could choose to be part of or not without consequences for his salvation. While it was never ML’s aim to break up the church into “thousands of contradictory Protestant sects”, that is the result when individual freedom in religious things is taken seriously.

ML reformed the way Christians viewed their individual relationship to God and the role of institutionalized religion (”church”).

If you read carefully what has already been mentioned about the often oppressive treatment of the individual by the collective in traditional societies, you will see how that relates to ML and the RCC. You will also understand that a free and individual approach to the practice of religion necessarily brings about “thousands of contradictory … sects”. That’s exactly the nature of freedom.

Mar 9, 2009 - 4:14 am 29. Charles R. Williams:

We in the West should ask ourselves if our post-Christian, secularized world holds any kind of attraction to thoughtful Muslims. Consider the last two hundred years of European history. Consider the collapse of Western Culture going on in our midst today.

I believe that our science, technology and economic institutions are appealing to them and that they believe these things are compatible with Islam. What repels them is our degenerate, popular culture.

These people are wrong but they are not stupid.

I had a most interesting conversation with a Saudi student after we visited a female American student in the hospital who had been beaten up by her live-in boyfriend. He explained to me that a father should look to his daughter’s cousins to find her a husband since he could be sure she would be safe and well-cared for if she married a boy within the family. There is no simple answer to this student’s perceptions and judgments. He likes it in America. He would be very happy if his family relocated here. No doubt he considers Islam to be exactly what America needs.

Mar 9, 2009 - 4:20 am 30. Denyse O'Leary:

“I believe that our science, technology and economic institutions are appealing to them and that they believe these things are compatible with Islam. What repels them is our degenerate, popular culture.

These people are wrong but they are not stupid.

I had a most interesting conversation with a Saudi student after we visited a female American student in the hospital who had been beaten up by her live-in boyfriend. He explained to me that a father should look to his daughter’s cousins to find her a husband since he could be sure she would be safe and well-cared for if she married a boy within the family.”

Thank you, Charles R. Williams! Based on conversations with Muslim friends, I believe you are right, that it is our popular culture that repels Muslims.

Consider, for example, the horrific recent case of the Connecticut woman who was horribly maimed by a chimpanzee that her employer regarded and treated as a “son.” A son? Yes, that is what she actually said – and meant. Our science and technology may be attractive, but our popular culture should not be, and is not.

I have strong reservations, of course, about “cousin marriage,” but I see the logic behind the student’s comments. It is much harder to hide abuse from family members than from the public at large.

Also, I am skeptical of claims that Islam can’t change. People forget that Christian culture was very different a thousand years ago from what it is today.

Claims that Islam cannot change because of the Qu’ran overlook the fact that Islam is not a monolithic institution. Any holy book is interpreted by scholars. Interpretations can and do change over time.

Consider how most Western Christians adapted their views of the account of creation in the Book of Genesis to NASA’s dating methods. They adapted and they remained Christians.

The big problem – in my humble opinion – is that too much power in the Muslim world is currently in the hands of people whose self interests are against changes that would lead to improvement. These people, of course, preach and proclaim that no change is possible, due to the Qu’ran.

If Muslims can change that, I believe that many problems will begin to solve themselves, and I hope they will be given encouragement.

Mar 9, 2009 - 5:35 am 31. Mike2:

19. Professor Guvinoff:

You get it better than anyone else. I enjoyed your reasoning, and your comments about “the Judeo-Christian civilization” were spot on. That’s the real reason we, in English speaking societies in particular, enjoy the freedoms and life that we have. When we loose that we have no other choice than to turn towards totalitarianism or authoritarianism ourselves. A couple of little experiments in Europe in the last century prove that. We all need to remember that the words “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” are the true underpinnings of democracy and of freedom.
—————————————
Who is John Galt?

Mar 9, 2009 - 6:10 am 32. Paul:

Philip Saenz (27):

Martin Luther was a “REFORMER”? Tsk, tsk. From Martin Luther came thousands of contrdictory Protestant sects. Just exactly what did Martin Luther and thousands of contradictory Protestant sects reform?

Sigh. Would you people please go study history just a little before posting crap like this? It’s in the books, folks, it’s probably even online. (you can even try Wikipedia.

To greatly synpopsize, Luther was a Roman Catholic monk who tried to reform abuses in the Roman Catholic church circa 1500. In particular, he 1) insisted that the Bible and church services be translated into the language of the people instead of the traditional Latin (which only the clergy understood), 2) insisted that certain practices of the church – particularly the sale of “indulgences” – were against the teachings of Jesus and should be stopped, and 3) generally insisted that the church had drifted away from the historical, scriptural teachings of Jesus and the apostles and should return to them. Luther always saw himself as a reformer and disliked the title “Lutheran”. It was only when he saw that the papacy would never accept the reforms that he demanded that he accepted the existance of a separate church body. To this day, Lutherans properly see themselves as the true Catholic church, the Roman Catholics being the ones in error.

The break-away Protestant bodies that you refer to are more properly derived from the Protestants, who happened at the same time as Luther but only partly associated with him: Calvin, Philipp Melanchthon, Knox, etc. Their doctrines are significantly different from those of Luther, and indeed Luther spoke out against them.

Mar 9, 2009 - 8:02 am 33. filthykafir:

Re: #30 by Denyse.
“…I am skeptical of claims that Islam can’t change. People forget that Christian culture was very different a thousand years ago from what it is today.”

I do not wish to be too critical of your post, Denyse; it is a good one. Nonetheless, an objective inquiry into islamic history reveals no significant change in ideology or practice in the thirteen centuries since its inception. Islam was conceived to be and was taught and practiced by mohammed to be a violent, aggressive, supremacist politic and religion. It was so, specifically toward Europe, until 1683. From that year until the late 1920’s, the islamic world degenerated relative to Europe, and later, America. But, for the past 70 years, islamic supremacist ideology has revived, been strengthened by enormous transfer of wealth to islam from the West (for oil), and currently again poses a grave threat to civilization.

The comparison with Christianity deserves closer examination. Christians did not begin their history with the express instructions of Jesus (Christ) to take over the world and destroy other cultures by force. They may have believed God was going to do that at some unspecified future time, but Jesus did not command them to undertake the project, themselves. Muslims, on the other hand, were given explicit commands to dominate others by force. Christians were virtually persecuted and powerless for the first 250 years of their history. Muslims underwent, possibly, five or so years of light “persecution” for their faith, then immediately began slaughtering and enslaving others to their own physical and spiritual needs. They (muslims) have not stopped. Since 2001, “Christians,” world-wide, have perpetrated exactly two lethal terrorist attacks in the name of their God. Muslims have committed over 13,000 such attacks, leaving tens of thousands dead and even more maimed.

Christian scripture (the “New Testament”) contains virtually no incitement to dominate or commit violence against others. The revered and authoritative documents of islam (qur’an, ahadith, and sira) are approximately 60% to 65% statements of alleged islamic superiority, vicious hatred of the other (especially Jews; more than hitler’s “mein kampf”), and explicit commands to dominate, enslave, and kill.

I am not enthusiastic about waiting another thirteen centuries for some sort of Reformation event to sweep the islamic world. The danger islam poses to Liberty and human rights is here, now. I assert we need to deal with it effectively today.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I think the distinctions I’ve made here are important for us to know and act upon.

Mar 9, 2009 - 8:28 am 34. Dr. Mark:

I am convinced that “radical” Muslims (however much I might disagree with them from a faith perspective)are not as opposed to “modernity” as they are offended by the cultural/moral trapping that the moral “left” have strapped on to western civilization. Many young Muslims are as adept at the internet and text-messaging as young Americans. These people though, are loath to accept what they see as the immorality of the West. I can hardly argue with them and Dinesh D’Souza does a much better job than I of exploring this idea in his book “The Enemy at Home”.

Mar 9, 2009 - 8:55 am 35. JFM:

the [Roman]catholic church had a Martin Luther to call them on their excesses….

One problem: Martin Luther was a reformer. His principle teaching was that the Roman Catholic Church had fallen away from the true teachings of Christ, and was able to demonstrate exactly from Scripture why this was so.

Except that there can’t be a Luther in Islam. The Koran has existed alongside with God for eternity and is not ven clear God himself created it and can change a single comma of it. And it advocates the murder of infidels. So the peole who pracice true Islam will end as jihadists. The good people are found between those individuals or minority sects who don’t care or keep their distances with Koran (eg the Ahmedists who allow the possibility of God sending further prophets)

Muhammad is set as the perfect man to be imitated in everything and when you read his life you see murderer who fgrom time to time “dreamed” (how convenient) that God had sent him a mesage saying such tribe was to betray him so he could destroy it, plunder its riches and keep its most attractive women for personal use (not for cleaning dishes).

There can be no compromise with Islam. Only hope is that we get massive apostasy and we will not get them by respecting it or flagellating aourselves.

Mar 9, 2009 - 10:37 am 36. David W. Lincoln:

In the spirit of Professor Guvinoff’s entry assigned #19, I offer this letter to the editor which is in the March 9, 2009 edition of the National Post:

The biggest ‘roadblock’
National Post
Published: Monday, March 09, 2009

Re: Roadblocks To Peace, March 7.

The graphic showing the “Roadblocks to Peace” in the Middle East omitted the biggest impediment — a veritable Matterhorn of a roadblock: Islamic doctrine. Islam teaches that Jews are a wicked, lowly people, who rebuked Islam’s revelation and purposely purged their own religious texts of all evidence of Islam’s prophet, Muhammad. A Jewish woman is even said to be responsible for poisoning Muhammad’s food and hastening his death.

Under the terms of Islamic law, such people are to be derided, shunned and forced to pay an onerous tax in an annual, ritual humiliation exercise.

For Jews to presume to set up sovereignty on land that now and for all time is said to belong to Muslims is considered a brazen affront to Islam that can never be countenanced. Hence the frenzied efforts — military, terrorist and, more recently, using the levers of the UN and the media — to rectify the “crime” that has been done to Muslims.

Another problem: When Israelis and Muslims talk about “peace,” they are talking about two different things. To an Israeli — and to most Westerners — “peace” is the cessation of all hostility as nations resolve to exist, if not in friendship, then at least in the spirit of “live and let live.” Islam, on the other hand, teaches that “peace” is the state of affairs that will exist worldwide when, and only when, Islam has finally prevailed.

Unless those involved in peace negotiations are prepared to address the gargantuan stumbling block of Islamic dogma (and, given the general ignorance in the West about Islam as well as the general reluctance to say anything that might offend Muslims, there is no reason to believe that they are), each new round of peace talks can only bring futility, frustration and failure.

Mindy G. Alter, Toronto.

Mar 9, 2009 - 11:07 am 37. Professor Guvinoff:

31. Mike2: Who is John Galt?

Dr Helen has a good piece on the John Galt option.
http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/going-john-galt-tell-dr-helen-about-it/

Mar 9, 2009 - 1:44 pm 38. Marie Claude:

“This blame game will not end soon, especially as the West continues to contort itself in making apologies for the colonialism that ended some time ago.”

Precisely, this is what paralyses our societies, not only muslims have this claim but also the Africans. We have the weakness of an old “empire”, the same that the Ottomans experimented in 19th century, when we started our colonial conquests, when our provinces had not such liberties vis-à-vis the central power, and were obliged to learn the proper language of the republic and to conform to its laws.

Abdelwahab Meddeb, La maladie de l’islam (in french for those who understand it)

http://remmm.revues.org/document2447.html

discussion, Abdelwahab Meddeb vs Tarik Ramadan (several video)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x484ns_ce-soir-ou-jamais-abdelwahab-meddeb_politics

I would say that “radical islam” is new for us as former colonialists, before the last decades we never heard that our people had problems with muslims on religious subjects. Islam was much, as the author of “La Maladie de l’Islam” says, an easy-going religion (religion bon enfant), practiced by modest populations.

Since the muslim emigration and its concentration in some quaters of our cities, there was a need for the workers to practice their cult, and this wasn’t particularly forecasted. Then the Saudi intervened with their money, they financed imams and mosquees. But these imams were not quit the same that our immigrants used to hear in their mother countries, they were preaching hate against us. Our governments had a deaf ear until the first muslim riots and aggressions. It was kinda a bit too late. Though, hopefully not desesperate. Enlightened persons like Abdelwahab Meddeb will make that our muslims find a way to integrate. I am glad that we have quit a few of them now, not really heard in our surburbs, though if their “intellecual” discourse is to question fondamentalism, the mobs will finally get some piece of it. This generation of mixed cultures academics is also new in our country.

Mar 9, 2009 - 7:16 pm 39. A_Nonny_Mouse:

30. Denyse O’Leary:
“Claims that Islam cannot change because of the Qu’ran overlook the fact that Islam is not a monolithic institution…”

Islam declares the Quran to be Allah’s literal word: perfect, immutable and eternal. Islam means “submission” to Allah and his perfect law. Any Muslim who questions or challenges any part of the Quran is not “submitting”; he is defying Allah and putting HIS OWN beliefs and will ahead of Allah’s perfect and complete law for mankind. You can wind up with a death fatwa for that kind of thing.

See an interesting article:

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/terrifying-brilliance-of-islamic.html

discussing Islam as a successful meme-plex.

Mar 9, 2009 - 9:50 pm 40. JFM:

Marie Claude

You mmake a classic error. You tell the problem is bad muslims when it is Islam itself. There are good muslims. Just like they were good nazis who donated their blood, helped elder woamn to cross the street and had their good Jew (”Our problem is that every one of 80 million Germans has his good Jew” Joseph Goebbels) doesn’t mean Nazism was a peaceful and benevolent political movement, the existence of good people between Muslims doesn’t mean Islam is a religion of peace. Instead just like the Nazis who =had their good Jew were bad Nazis, those good people between Muslims were being bad Muslims: quite simply they are not following Koran’s precepts. And then someone puts the book under their noses and orders them: “Read!”. At this point either the lifelong brain washing about Koran being God’s word steps in or they are horrified by what they read and they are apostates.

For the “easy going religion” I just recall you Boumediene’s words “We will conquer you through the wombs of your women”. Whatever the poor chap working at Renault thought, the people of of the FMN had ever close ties with radical islam and intended to use the poor chap against you. Visiting Kabyl websites is enlightening about FLN’s ties with islamism.

Also you cannot integrate your Muslims. It is impossible given Islam’s nature (BTW have you read the Koran?) Your only hope is to lead them to massive apostasy. That does not mean necessarily convert to christiannism. However unless you fill the void left by Islam the danger will ever be present that when disaster strikes their lives they return to Islam. “Laicité” cannot fill this void (fill it with buddhism if you want but better fill it), at least not for the first generation of converts. And if you want to lead Muslims to apostasy the first step is stop bowing to Islam. Not necessarily direct aggression but make clear freedom of expression is not negotiable and those unhappy about it can go to Saudi Arabia, that you will protect apostates, that woe to the father of sexually mutilated girls, torpedo teaching Arabic to children of Maghrebi stock (they are FGrench and their ancestors are Gauls. Period.), that the veil is not OK and broadcast documentaries about Muslim piracy in the Mediterranean or atrocities in India so decnt people feel shame about being Muslims. Drive a wedge between Arabs and Kabyles between Blacks and Arabs (hint: Darfur). If the French hope that they just close their eyes and Muslims will integrate they are making the same mistake they made at Munich. And you know how it ended.

Mar 10, 2009 - 3:34 am 41. maurice:

How great to see Professor Mansur on these pages. It has been a long time since I read the Sun newspapers regularly and I have missed his perspective.

Mar 10, 2009 - 5:00 am 42. Susan Katz Keating:

Of course, we thoroughly enable these tyrants by making the distinction between “extremist” and “mainstream” Islam. There is no difference. The entire indeology is extremist.

Mar 10, 2009 - 7:22 am 43. Aristotle's Toes:

David Lincoln;

Arab culture is an honor/shame culture. Some of the ire at the existence of Isreal may certainly be based on religious grounds, but I would say most of it is related to the humiliation of losing a handful of wars against them.

Mar 10, 2009 - 10:14 am 44. Marie Claude:

JFM

“You mmake a classic error. You tell the problem is bad muslims when it is Islam itself.”

In the “Absolu” you are right. The same distinction could be applied to the different lectures and or readings from christians when “reformers” started to attack the roman catholic dogmas. At these times, Catholics were what we could compare to the “easy going islam religion”. Fights for power ensued, and there were as crual as the actual islamism vs “easy going islam”. Henri IV who was bred “protestant” and reversed to catholicism for state reason, therefore of mixed culture, managed to calm down the ressentiments and initiated the “Edit de Nantes” as a national rule, which had about one and a half century life, until that Louis XIV, pushed by his morganatic wife, the converted jansenist Mme de Maintenon, broke it. During this intermediary term, Protestants were tolerated and had their own fiefs but became less numerous and their nobleness counter power was anhilited by new Versailles court rules. While radical catholic priests, ie jansenists, became the legal christian words holders of the kingdom. Then the protestants who had become the new “easy goings” were discriminated again. (This is why you got “Huguenots” settlements in the US.)

So, it appears to me that the religions have a kind of revolution times in history, situations are repeated (and again and again), though the aftermaths are/will be different for the protagonists according to their importance and influence of the given time.

If it can be acknoledged for us, I don’t see that the muslims have a different human nature, then they could make their revolution, and fight for an “easy going religion” too, cuz, one thing is sure, no western, or asian… power can eradicate islam as a religion. The nowadays alternative left is to support and emphasize the “easy going muslims’s words”, and reward those who hold them as “dhimmis”, if our economical power still can allow that, besides that was what the Romans made with the barbarians, umm, you know the aftermaths, Roma disappeared as empire, but the population remained alive and their culture are still the foundements of our languages and rules, so ???

For the “easy going religion” I just recall you Boumediene’s words “We will conquer you through the wombs of your women”. Whatever the poor chap working at Renault thought, the people of of the FMN had ever close ties with radical islam and intended to use the poor chap against you. Visiting Kabyl websites is enlightening about FLN’s ties with islamism.

Umm, yes, but more than 50% of them were/are not practicing their religion anymore, like us, the unions converted them to secularism.

Also you cannot integrate your Muslims. It is impossible given Islam’s nature (BTW have you read the Koran?) No, I’m not very interested

Your only hope is to lead them to massive apostasy. That does not mean necessarily convert to christiannism. However unless you fill the void left by Islam the danger will ever be present that when disaster strikes their lives they return to Islam. “Laicité” cannot fill this void (fill it with buddhism if you want but better fill it), at least not for the first generation of converts. And if you want to lead Muslims to apostasy the first step is stop bowing to Islam. Not necessarily direct aggression but make clear freedom of expression is not negotiable and those unhappy about it can go to Saudi Arabia, that you will protect apostates, that woe to the father of sexually mutilated girls, torpedo teaching Arabic to children of Maghrebi stock (they are FGrench and their ancestors are Gauls. Period.), that the veil is not OK and broadcast documentaries about Muslim piracy in the Mediterranean or atrocities in India so decnt people feel shame about being Muslims. Drive a wedge between Arabs and Kabyles between Blacks and Arabs (hint: Darfur). If the French hope that they just close their eyes and Muslims will integrate they are making the same mistake they made at Munich. And you know how it ended.

France is may-be the only european state that doesn’t comply to muslim sharia requests ; you can still remember the noise around the anti-veil law, our journalists and carricaturists have all gained in the final court appeals, we are the country that expel the most the illegal muslims and or their biased imams, though it’s not advertised in the medias, (tradition of secret), since the begining of the school year, the imams that want a position in France must get an university grade in french language and laic laws, our secret service have a “spy” in each mosquee and or place where muslims meet, Algeria war and the earlier eighties (when muslim terrorists hit our capital) teached us that the fight for influence is never finished

Mar 10, 2009 - 12:46 pm 45. Marie Claude:

according to their importance and influence (not “of” but “in”) the given time (s)

Mar 10, 2009 - 12:52 pm 46. Cybergeezer:

T.A.R.P.; Taliban Assistance & Relief Program.

Mar 10, 2009 - 3:22 pm 47. Fred2:

The primary response to Islamic Imperialism is to stop paying them. Stop paying them for oil. The Islamic Revolution runs materially on western oil money and spiritually on the idea that the oil money is God’s commandment to go forth and expand.

At the very least seize the Iranian oil fields and destroy their nuclear and military facilities. Then we can pump the oil without paying the Mullahs. Iran will trim down to a country with all the international clout of an Algeria or a Mauritania.

Mar 10, 2009 - 3:40 pm 48. typos_R_us:

“So, it appears to me that the religions have a kind of revolution times in history, situations are repeated (and again and again), though the aftermaths are/will be different for the protagonists according to their importance and influence of the given time.”

Absolutely. My theory is that is happens about 50 generations after the original prophet does his thing.
Most of the really barbaric Christian behavior happened about the 11th century ( a few centuries on either side, not enough room here to be precise), when half the Christians of the post Christ era morphed into Catholics. Then for the next few centuries they went on a killing spree. The Orthodox half didn’t go postal, so I don’t count them in my theory.
It has been about 1400 years since ol’ Mo the Goat fooker put down his burden, so Islam is due for a period of serious bloodshed.
The biggest problem with the West is we are treating the Muslims as if they were civilized, 21st century humans. That makes it hard for them to understand us and being 7th century religious nutbags, they fear what they don’t understand.
For example, take the Gitmo Prisoners. In the 7th century, prisoners were either ransomed, executed or kept as slaves. Locking them in a kennel like some sort of animal is weird by Islamic standards. So the Bush administration should have set a ransom for the low level guys that would have allowed their families to buy them back, and then set a ultra high ransom for the ones we wanted to keep. Let their families know and everything would have been OK.
The Muslims would have understood perfectly what was going on. The ones that made their ransom would have been kept off any future battlefields by their families, at least until they paid back the ransom. The ones that didn’t, dance with a noose. IIRC, Richard Coeur de’ Lion’s ransom was aprox 1/3 the total wealth of England. A more brutal solution, one my Wicking ancestors would have approved of, would be amputation of the right foot and left hand. That would have ended any further terrorist activity on their part and had a positive affect on recruiting. Let them sit in front of the Mosque that recruited them and beg for their daily bread. That way when Omar wants to join the Jihad, Mom can take him down to the Mosque and show him Ali’s shiny aluminum foot and gleaming steel hook.

Mar 11, 2009 - 7:54 am 49. JFM:

Pleaaaaaaaaaaasse. The horrendous crimles of Islam started as soon as Muhammad fled to Madinah. And there ius a fundamental difference between christianism and Islam: the Gospel doesn’t advocate violence so even in the Middle Agges there were people telling the Church was not being true to Chrirst’s doctrines.

In Islam the violence is in Koran itself and it is those people who aren’t busy fighting infidels who are being untrue.

In other words your theory is silly.

Alos: this has ever been a standard tactic from fellow travelers (and from peopel they had brainwashed). Point at the straw in other people’s eye to divert the attention from the bad guy’s eye.

Mar 11, 2009 - 9:00 am 50. Marie Claude:

JFM, your tactic is not working so well either, since your state launched “Global War” on Islam, islam has never been so alive.

But, don’t tell me that that was only a real crusade, then you chose the wrong heretics, the real ones had/have their entries in DC, and were initiated to cow-boyish sports in Texas

Mar 11, 2009 - 11:19 am 51. JFM:

Marie Claude

It would work a lot better without the ideolgical backstabbing of that country who spent WWII waiting who would end winning.

Mar 11, 2009 - 3:55 pm 52. Marie Claude:

typos_R_us,

quite on your side

This is a scenario that could have worked well, knowing that all is negotiable by muslim/arab standards ; just recall the tourists that go into the Maghrebin, ME countries, it is yet known that one is an idiot if he/her pays the price of the goods that are shown, but one needs to discuss them until the “right” price is reached, also idem for the talibani mercenaries, a western soldier has a price, a sergent, another, captains and lieutnent are the most priced, but humanitarians are the lowests ; so we should adopt their criteriums for the jihadists too !

That said, our political correctors will never let that happen, too bad they will become dhimmis the firsts, reward the rapportors according to the importance of the discovered jihadists and their responsabilities in the organisation, could be a positive step !

Mar 11, 2009 - 4:06 pm 53. Marie Claude:

JFM, peux tu changer de CD, it’s becoming worn out and boring

Mar 11, 2009 - 4:24 pm 54. Marie Claude:

JFM, it’s not one day someone tries to tell me how we are weak, ingrat…. backstabbing, well I think you backtabbed us since the beginning when the first french settlers went to America

about weaknes, I replied there :

http ://comments.americanthinker.com/read/42323/286654.html

about ingratitude, who’s got the biggest sin ?

http://www.hudsonrivervalley.net/ROCHAMBEAUINCONNECTICUT/ROCHAMBEAUINCONNECTICUT4.pdf

Mar 11, 2009 - 6:24 pm 55. JFM:

Marie Claude

Some typical actions of French ruling elites (ie those people who used your grand daddies as cannon-fodder):

-Alliance between France and the Turks against Karl V. Turkish warships are allowed to stay in Marseille’s harbor despite use of Christian some of them probably French slave rowers. Also entire Europe (France include) is endangered: First siege of Vienna.

-Hostile neutrality, as in forcing Spaniards to distract forces from the main effort, during the Lepanto campaign. IN the months preceding the battle, the forces on the Turkish fleet crushed several revolts in occupied Europe perpetrating such atrocities that even islamic scholars were moved by them (a unique case since inception of Islam where islamic scholars were moved by atrocities against infidels). It also set back the cause of freedom in Balkans for several centuries. It was also the root cause of what happened last decade in former Yugoslavia

-Backstabing and irresponsible behavior during the events who led to second siege of Vienna. Louis XIV pressured Jan Sobieski to remain neutral. He wasn’t moved by considerations like the fate of populations under Turkish yoke. He didn’t stop to think that if Sobieski had listened him you would be wearing a burkha now. He also took advantage of Austrian and German troops being busy elsewhere to steal Alsace, aka aone of the root causes of WWI.

-De Gaulle’s action during WWII. He ever seemed more concerned by consolidating his position than by having Free France make a useful contribution to war effort (No, I am not debasing Free French. Only that one). After reading De Gaulle’s war memories it looked like the motto “Petain is the shield and De Gaulle the sword” (against Germans) should have been inverted “De Gaulle, the shield. Petain the sword” (against Allies)

-De Gaulle’s 1945 release of Hadj Amin Husseini. Amin Husseini was a former participant in the Armenian genocide, organizer of the 193x pogroms in what was called Palestine, Hitler’s personal friend, helped to recruit the SS divions Hanschar whose atrocities in Serbia would horrify even the SS high command and last but not least his assassinations of Palestinian leaders willing to compromise with the Jews contributed to making Middle East the mess it is. De Gaulle, supposedly a Free French, released a war criminal related to the Nazis in order to cause trouble to the British. That with the corpses of those who had fallen in France still warm.

-De Gaulle’s double-crossings during the Cold War. His weapons embargo against Israel prior to Six Days War in order to ingratiate the Arabs. Arab leaders had told that their goal was neither destroying the state of Israel nor sending back Jews to Europe but their extermination in case they had won the war. That didn’t bother him

-Giscard’s and Chirac’s irresponsible WMD proliferation policy. Have you stopped to think that the nukes you give Saddam today could be used against Paris or Brest tomorrow?

-The Muhammad Al-Dhura fake news forged by French state television. Let’s remeber that this was used by Al Quaida for recruiting. Let’s remember that the Taliban invoked the name of Al Dhura whey they beheaded Daniel Pearl. Let’s remember that hundreds of people died because of this video. Let’s remember that by setting Middle East afire, France made Arabs turn towards their “protector”.

-Post 9/11 French literature. From conspiracy theories about Pentagon having been hit by missiles to fictions telling of rapes in WTC on 9/11. Most significative their authors weren’t ostracized and run out of town on a rail but hailed by critic and public.

-Continuous diabolization of America and undermining of her efforts in America’s WOT , that is in a war where hearts and minds is everything. You think it is smart to feed the crocodile. One day it will devour you.

-Villepin and Chirac promising Turkey UE membership if it didn’t allow Americans to operate from its territory. The lack of the 4th ID in the North allowed Saddam’s forces to go underground. It also gave him extra time to hide things into Syria…

Now I am sure you will come with links pointing to America sins but the difference is that from time to time America does something good and decent. Except for Independence war (who was more a stab at England than a blow stricken for liberty) can you find examples of France ever doing any good? Also don’t you think it would be time of making drastic changes, like that Bastille thing, in France’s morally corrupt ruling personnel?

Mar 12, 2009 - 7:35 am 56. Marie Claude:

JFM t’as mis le paquet LMAO, but I’d like you to bring your sources before I reply, you’v got your raisons, I have my justifications

thanks in advance

Mar 12, 2009 - 7:48 am 57. Marie Claude:

JFM, have you got anymore griefs against us, that I have not already treated here, cuz I got some archives, and I’ll be happy to send them to you, let me know if you really want to read them.

so, I guess that you had some difficulties to digg into neutral sources, bizarre they are on the net though !

-De Gaulle’s action during WWII. He ever seemed more concerned by consolidating his position than by having Free France make a useful contribution to war effort (No, I am not debasing Free French. Only that one). After reading De Gaulle’s war memories it looked like the motto “Petain is the shield and De Gaulle the sword” (against Germans) should have been inverted “De Gaulle, the shield. Petain the sword” (against Allies)

that’s your spin, can’t help if you have it, besides this was one of your “opinions” in a previous discussion

-De Gaulle’s 1945 release of Hadj Amin Husseini. Amin Husseini was a former participant in the Armenian genocide, organizer of the 193x pogroms in what was called Palestine, Hitler’s personal friend, helped to recruit the SS divions Hanschar whose atrocities in Serbia would horrify even the SS high command and last but not least his assassinations of Palestinian leaders willing to compromise with the Jews contributed to making Middle East the mess it is. De Gaulle, supposedly a Free French, released a war criminal related to the Nazis in order to cause trouble to the British. That with the corpses of those who had fallen in France still warm.

I believe that you didn’t read de Gaulle’s memories, but some sort of british good ol chaps legend, BTW, they were the very intrigants in this case

CONTROVERSE

another link that relates the afferent british bacck-yard and hypocrit actions :

De Gaulle, la Syrie…Israel and the bloody British
à suivre

Mar 12, 2009 - 11:33 am 58. Marie Claude:

de Gaulle sur Israel

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3putt_de-gaulle-sur-israel_news

Le président de la République lui-même a du mal à se faire entendre : « L’Etat qui le premier emploierait les armes n’aurait ni l’approbation ni, à plus forte raison, l’appui de la France », a déclaré le général de Gaulle au conseil des ministres du 2 juin. Logiquement, dès que le conflit éclate, il annonce un embargo sur toutes les armes à l’encontre de tous les belligérants. Quelques mois plus tard, dans une conférence de presse – dont on n’a retenu que la phrase controversée présentant les Juifs comme « un peuple sûr de lui et dominateur » –, il ajoutera qu’Israël « organise, sur les territoires qu’il a pris, l’occupation qui ne peut aller sans oppression, répression, expulsions ; et il s’y manifeste contre lui une résistance qu’à son tour il qualifie de terrorisme ».

no comment

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/2007/06/BERG/14839

Mar 12, 2009 - 11:41 am 59. Marie Claude:

passons sur les WMD, ours were planes, yours ???

tu radotes mon cher, nous en avons déjà discuté

don’t tell me that the civil nuclear plant was still on, and that the “yellow cake”, the “WMD”, LMAO, you knew it was already noticed during the first golf war, and they were not the very arms you serched (?)

Mar 12, 2009 - 11:48 am 60. Marie Claude:

-The Muhammad Al-Dhura fake news forged by French state television. Let’s remeber that this was used by Al Quaida for recruiting. Let’s remember that the Taliban invoked the name of Al Dhura whey they beheaded Daniel Pearl. Let’s remember that hundreds of people died because of this video. Let’s remember that by setting Middle East afire, France made Arabs turn towards their “protector”.

yeah we armed the Talibani, c’est bien connu, seulement leur couteaux ne sont pas français, ni leur armes, americaines ???, you were in Afghanistan in the eighties, helping the Talibani to kick out the soviet army, Ben Laden family was/is one of the the american political Gotha, uh, don’t ya like the good ol friends anymore ?, umm under the bus, à la mode americaine, une habitude je vois

Mar 12, 2009 - 11:57 am 61. Marie Claude:

Post 9/11 French literature. From conspiracy theories about Pentagon having been hit by missiles to fictions telling of rapes in WTC on 9/11. Most significative their authors weren’t ostracized and run out of town on a rail but hailed by critic and public.

one book, one man Thierry Messan, he isn’t in France anymore his presence is not allowed, he is hiding somewhere in the world

tell me how many fake videos came from your very country, how many books too ? the internet was full of american conspiracies about it, uh, we didn’t invent them, they were everywhere

Mar 12, 2009 - 12:01 pm 62. Marie Claude:

-Continuous diabolization of America and undermining of her efforts in America’s WOT , that is in a war where hearts and minds is everything. You think it is smart to feed the crocodile. One day it will devour you.

-Villepin and Chirac promising Turkey UE membership if it didn’t allow Americans to operate from its territory. The lack of the 4th ID in the North allowed Saddam’s forces to go underground. It also gave him extra time to hide things into Syria…

Really ? then they are idiots, the majority of Frenchs don’t want that, besides it would have been a referandum vote, and Chirac isn’t that idiot for ignoring his popole voice LMAO

Now I am sure you will come with links pointing to America sins but the difference is that from time to time America does something good and decent. Except for Independence war (who was more a stab at England than a blow stricken for liberty) can you find examples of France ever doing any good? Also don’t you think it would be time of making drastic changes, like that Bastille thing, in France’s morally corrupt ruling personnel?

Mar 12, 2009 - 12:05 pm 63. Marie Claude:

can you find examples of France ever doing any good? Also don’t you think it would be time of making drastic changes, like that Bastille thing, in France’s morally corrupt ruling personnel ?

The problem is that France, most of the time had to defend herself from agressors, you know, the perfid Albion, the heavy Krauts, … OK, sometimes we invaded them, you know the result ? they learnt the finest manners, they read poetry, philosophes…. the copied our castels, our laws…

and more gratuitous, we supported the christians in ME since the crusades, and more oficially when King François Ier was anointed protector of the ME christian communities by the pope, beside I alredy talk about it, our blue helmets are every where it’s possible,

Mar 12, 2009 - 12:14 pm 64. Marie Claude:

-Alliance between France and the Turks against Karl V. Turkish warships are allowed to stay in Marseille’s harbor despite use of Christian some of them probably French slave rowers. Also entire Europe (France include) is endangered: First siege of Vienna.

-Hostile neutrality, as in forcing Spaniards to distract forces from the main effort, during the Lepanto campaign. IN the months preceding the battle, the forces on the Turkish fleet crushed several revolts in occupied Europe perpetrating such atrocities that even islamic scholars were moved by them (a unique case since inception of Islam where islamic scholars were moved by atrocities against infidels). It also set back the cause of freedom in Balkans for several centuries. It was also the root cause of what happened last decade in former Yugoslavia

-Backstabing and irresponsible behavior during the events who led to second siege of Vienna. Louis XIV pressured Jan Sobieski to remain neutral. He wasn’t moved by considerations like the fate of populations under Turkish yoke. He didn’t stop to think that if Sobieski had listened him you would be wearing a burkha now. He also took advantage of Austrian and German troops being busy elsewhere to steal Alsace, aka aone of the root causes of WWI.

Bizarre, the Turcs were attacking our remnent enemis, I suppose you would have reacted so it you were in our place, beside we had some interests to keep good relations with the Turcs, otherwise, bye bye the ME Christians, no more washed out !!!

have a look :

http://www.ambafrance-tr.org/spip.php?article22

The christian coutries were so busy to fight each others, the Turcs find there the opportunity to extend their territories

“Au début du XVIIe siècle, la France obtiendra l’autorisation de protéger les pèlerins chrétiens allant à Jérusalem, ce qui lui assurera un protectorat de fait puis de droit sur les Catholiques, personnes et biens, des pays soumis au sultan, en particulier sur les Lieux saints. De ce jour date la tradition, constamment maintenue par tous les régimes que la France a connus, de défendre la cause des Chrétiens d’Orient.
Le traité était ouvert aux autres nations chrétiennes. Certaines — l’Angleterre, la Hollande — obtinrent à la fin du XVIe et au début du XVIIe siècle des capitulations qui leur accordèrent les mêmes avantages. Il n’y eut bientôt plus de nation privilégiée mais, en 1581, lors du renouvellement des capitulations, un article stipula que l’ambassadeur du roi de France aurait la prééminence sur ceux de tous les autres souverains d’Europe.”

http://www.eliecilicie.net/capitulations_1535.htm

Mar 12, 2009 - 12:47 pm 65. Marie Claude:

uh, sumthin that will confort you

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/k2opIncLDzTnxA5ieo

Mar 12, 2009 - 12:54 pm 66. Frog:

Marie Calude,

I hope you invest at least the same efforts on French sites where anything American (except the Prez) is denigrated.
At least some comments in MSM.

Mar 13, 2009 - 2:30 am 67. Marie Claude:

Frog, you make it, then I don’t need to do it, anyway it’s not my cup of tea, everywhere there are idiots

Mar 13, 2009 - 6:42 am 68. JFM:

Marie Claude

Since you doubt I have read De Gaulle’s book it begins with the words “For a long time I have had a certain idea of France” Quite Proustian isn’t it? .

Now excuse me but De Gaulle on Israel was pure hypocrisy. First because the first act of war was perpetrated by the Arabs. Naval blockade is a an ct of war you know? Second bcause De Gaulle knew all too well Israel’s context. First because a country who was only ten miles wide (that is less than 12 hours of German advance in 1940) cannot absorb the inevitable ground losses staying on the defensive implies. Twelve hours and you are cut in two. Than both halves are crushed in detail. Then genocide. Not a “clean” one like at Auschwitz but. Well I am sure you can supply the details for an israeli maternity invaded by your Palestinian friends. Third: Because everyone in Israel had to be in the Army to counter Arab numerical superiority. Zero economic life. Sooner or later Israel would have had to disband its reserves. Then genocide. Fourth: Because move towards pro6arab positions began neraly immediately after he regined power and because restrictions on ram sales to Israel began in 1965. But be it against harkis or against Jews he had given ample proof the perspective of a genocide would not stop him.

Mar 13, 2009 - 9:34 am 69. Marie Claude:

JFM, of course De Gaulle wrote that, his father was a right wing teacher of history and humanities in a jesuit private high school, their family lineage goes up to middle-age knights times, in WWI he miraculously escaped from death, since then he thought that he had a programmed destinity, serving and incarnating France, I wouldn’t say he is “proustian”, in that sense he was/IS France, he never changed his mind about it, never made compromissions about it,like politicians usually do, he never got richer because of his position, he resigned when he constated that the French didn’t appreciate him at the head of our state anymore, that’s not that the politicians do.

I don’t know all the details of the 1967 conflit, enlight me, though your sources are seldom, what I can say is that de Gaulle was pursuing the “politique arabe de la France”, that the Arab world was/is necessary to our surviving, more than Israel, who represented/represent a tiny part of our trades, even our jewish population wouldn’t contest that. While, like De Gaulle said, we wouldn’t let any muslim country anhililate Israel, we are not stoopid enough to endorse all Israel policies either, that means, common sense must prevails and taking distance with all the protagonists. I don’t know, but your referring to old sources about palestinians, I don’t see that Sarkozy support them, at least not more than your previous government did.

umm, you still want to see us as letting Germany take over us, well, I’m not confronting you with new links, for it’s not paying, you want to have the argument on any chess, keep it on, I don’t care, though the very historians may not agree with all your assertations.

I think that is rather YOU who has a proustian vision on De Gaulle, and on us as a whole, cuz, your frienships move along the interests of a few in your holly country ;you say hypocrisy, I say, De Gaulle was well aware of world policies and of each state own interests in interaction with the others, but he harshly conforted Frances’s, what is abnormal ?

I get more and more the feeling that you are not American, or a very peculiar one, though I recall you that Israel wouldn’t exist now, if, at the origin of her very creation, France didn’t support her, that the Exodus people found more support from France than from any other anglo-saxon’s, remember, the Brits empeched them to accoast in Palestine, Roosvelt was notoriously known anti-semit… he couldn’t care less of the Jews, and only freed the concentrations camps than at the end of WW2,

Mar 13, 2009 - 11:01 am 70. Marie Claude:

you write what is french through your reading of opinions that confort your self sentiment of a righteous and superior nation, when I see self surviving for us, and an hubris herd sensation of infaillibility for you, that regularly brings the empires to their end, and yours will have one of the shortest lifes, I’m sorry for you, I think it must be painful for you to watch this declin, I am glad of not living on your side of the pond. We had our lot, but I wasn’t born for WWII and too young to get hurt for Algeria war. I just remember that during the harsh evenments of Alger Battle and the putch of the OAS colonels, my father kept his rifle at proximity, and that he always had a knife in his pocket, I thought he was a brave “warrior” too ; long after these evennments, I think he was too much anxious, there were no fellah guis kilometers around

Mar 13, 2009 - 7:12 pm 71. Frog:

Marie Claude,

Sure there are idiots everywhere. It’s their proportion that differs from one place to another. Have you opened a French news outlet recently?

Mar 14, 2009 - 4:13 pm 72. Marie Claude:

Frog,

“It’s their proportion that differs from one place to another.”

as-tu une idée derriere la tête ?

parce-que tu as l’air de vouloir me dire que les idiots seraient plus nombreux de ce côté de l’Atlantique, ben, désolée, le pourcentage d’idiots dans une population donnée est sensiblement le même, sociologiquement verifiable

“Have you opened a French news outlet recently?”

what news that you know from french outlets that I wouldn’t ? sorry, petite reinette, j’ai les journeaux français en “link” on my place, I control the english news with our papers, sometimes there are some nuances on the interpretation of the facts, depends on wich side of the pond they are written, often they make no difference on your side wether they come from lefties or righties papers, though it’s in their appreciation by bloggers that they differ, and, I confess, it’s more “fun” and more constructive for me to counter those that are not very positive for us, because when people accept the discussion I learn something, I hope it’s true for the opposite too.

now, petite frog, tell me that you’re not french, but one of my former procurators (definition 3 HERE

I am sidered to see that the “rightfuls” that say that they are so brave and fairer than us, choose the “anonymity”, uh, say, this is not really what I would define as responsible in the moral definition.

” “Anonymous” is someone who has an axe to grind and is afraid that same axe might fall on him ! A chicken-hearted loser”

if you want to also tell me that my place is not here, I tell ya, then forbid the net, (may-be it’s what will come soon !) but the editors of this place allow my pass, I suppose that they appreciate some different sounds of voice that colours the “unisson” ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unison )

bonne nuit petite grenouille

Mar 14, 2009 - 6:30 pm 73. Frog:

Marie Claude,

And you complain about people thinking the French are arrogant? That they pretend to know better than anyone?

I couldn’t care less about your “sidered” state and pretention you know everything (including my gender).

When I have time to read off-topic comments, yours are a good laugh.

Mar 15, 2009 - 3:06 am 74. Marie Claude:

“yours are a good laugh.”

trop petty mon ami, dame oui, LMAO

yeah, you’re one of these idiots

I’m not complaining, I constat that you have become an “island” of parrotgance, (not only the lefties, but SURTOUT the neo-cons, aren’t they former deceipted lefties ?) where only white scott-irish, anglo-saxon Americans are praised, and that the true humanists are rare among them, or they don’t waste their time on cawing on the net !

Fortunately I know a few that autorise us to not desesperate for the future, but they don’t have too much attention

bien le bonjour, froggy, LMAO

Mar 15, 2009 - 6:54 am 75. JFM:

I take the liberty to translate into plain English your reasonements about France’s and more concretely De Gaulle’s backstabbings (actually France’s record was not that bad until De Gaulle). Francde will stop at nothing if gives it the tiniest benefit. More or less Vichy’s philosphy. Millions may die in Israel (BTW, De Gaulle’s “guarantees” to Israel) were laughable; once it was cut in two, not even America could prevent mass murder without threatening to use nukes and risk confrontation with Soviet Union) or in Rwanda, it is right if France gets even a single cent for it. After all, these are just untermenchen. The day we meet aliens from the kind depicted in the Alien movies, there is one thing we can be sure of: France will sell humankind for thirty silver coins… and the French will cheer their prsident right until the Aliens will come for them.

Mar 16, 2009 - 12:34 am 76. Marie Claude:

JFM, I made a response, that was awaiting moderation, and it has disappeared, so, someone doesn’t want that you read it

now, if you want me to remake it you can join me

http://twitter.com/home

Mar 16, 2009 - 10:23 am 77. deguello:

What malady? Didn’t Bush call Islam:”the religion of peace?”

Mar 16, 2009 - 10:40 am 78. Marie Claude:

http ://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/rwanda/2004/0331whose.htm

http ://www.france24.com/fr/20080926-reporters-rdc-congo-rwanda-rebelles-hutus-massacre-genocide-1994-tutsis-monuc-foret-viols

Le Cam. Staline déclare que le tableau aurait été tout autre, bien sûr, si l’Armée rouge avait été en France (…)

Le Cam. Staline dit que les camarades yougoslaves travaillent très bien, mais ils doivent beaucoup au fait que leur pays a été libéré par l’Armée rouge. Si Churchill avait encore retardé d’un an l’ouverture d’un second front dans le nord de la France, l’Armée rouge serait allée jusqu’en France, le Cam. Staline dit que nous avions l’idée d’arriver jusqu’à Paris (…)

Thorez dit que les Anglo-Américains ont débarqué en France moins pour détruire l’Allemagne que pour prendre position en Europe occidentale.

Le Cam. Staline dit que, bien évidemment, les Anglo-Américains ne pouvaient laisser l’Armée rouge libérer Paris alors que, pour leur part, ils seraient restés sur les rives d’Afrique (…)

Thorez dit qu’il peut certifier au Cam. Staline que le peuple français aurait accueilli l’Armée rouge avec enthousiasme (…)

http ://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-politique/quand-staline-recevait-thorez/917/0/104581

explication de texte chez moi

Mar 16, 2009 - 11:34 am 79. Marie Claude:

and :

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB53/press.html

Mar 16, 2009 - 12:32 pm 80. Marie Claude:

OK, let’see

I guess that you got a traumatism from De Gaulle’s policies, and a persistant frustration of not seeing us complying to big Amerika suzerainity.

BTW, I investigated the sources that you suggested me, and I didn’t find that they were so dishonorous for De Gaulle, but you were right about our communists, they took their orders from Moscow.

Mar 16, 2009 - 2:15 pm 81. Marie Claude:

suite
So, that pushes us until Rwanda, yeah, the genocide there was the result of our common conflict of influences, we were for the Hutus, you were for the Tutsis, the Rebels, and your CIA guis instructed them with arms manipulation and supplies, Mr Kagane followed your policy, he was also the first to initiate the genocide
Both of our countries and UN were responsible of it, yours, the Clinton administration forbid your army forces to interven, the UN was indecise and delayed it decisons, the Frenchs, with no precise requests from the UN stand for protecting the white population. But naturally your government had obviously interests to put the blame on us, there we go the rumors. Seems that the 8 past years you hold the record for fictional conspiraties theories, from right and from left Americas, though yours were directed at us, ie Plame and the yellow cake, the WMD that the Frenchs were supposed to provide… big BS, that serious historians and investigators can easily digg in. See, machiavelism is a well shared sin.

Mar 16, 2009 - 2:18 pm 82. Marie Claude:

suite

About Israel, we have nothing against her and nothing much for her, just that a few of her leaders tried to discredit France and interven in our inner policies. They made such emphasizments on our supposed anti-semitism, which is BTW, the lowest in rates among the european countries, even with our big ratio of muslims. Though one should understand that we have the biggest jewish diaspora after the US, and that Israel need badly to repopulate. They offered subventions to the french jewishes if they emigrated. But our jewish population said it first feels French. A low percentage was tempted, half of it came back or emigrated to the US.

Mar 16, 2009 - 2:21 pm 83. Marie Claude:

there is more here, and WITH sources,

http://mysoupis.blogspot.com/

you just repeat the same blah blah that was in use a few years ago, not very encouraging for the sanity of your brain

or are you the one that wants to make rumors, I’m sorry to tell you that your time is over, and that the persons in charge of policies from whatever country they live, are not stoopid, they can discern the “objective agendas”

Mar 16, 2009 - 2:35 pm

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