The Mexican Flag Double Standard
Waving a Mexican flag shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than Mexican-Americans showing pride in their ethnic heritage — just like Jewish-Americans, Irish-Americans, and Italian-Americans do.
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May Day marches held in dozens of U.S. cities last week brought out thousands of protesters demanding better treatment of immigrants, both legal and illegal. They also brought out lots of American flags and — as always seems to be the case with these events — an ample supply of Mexican ones. Judging from the blogs, talk radio and letters to the editor, that’s all some people wanted to talk about.
A couple of days earlier, I was speaking to Jewish retirees in Oceanside, Ca - about 30 miles north of San Diego. I went on for 45 minutes about the history of the U.S. immigration debate, the current landscape, the recurring stench of nativism, and the best and worst practices to balance our immigration tradition with respect for the rule of law. Then I heard from the audience.
The first question went like this: “A lot of us come from immigrant families. And we bonded with America. But now it seems like a lot of people aren’t doing that. They wave the Mexican flag. Why do they do that?”
I gave a three-part answer:
First, I told the group, even as someone who often defends immigrants from harmful, hateful and half-baked ideas in a debate that is both volatile and vitriolic, I agree that immigrants should assimilate — for their own good. Besides, it doesn’t make any sense to flaunt allegiance to one country while demanding rights from another. It’s bad manners and bad civics. It also reflects bad memories. After all, these people don’t owe Mexico the time of day. That country works for some folks — the wealthy, light-skinned, well-connected etc - but not for others. Mexican immigrants in the United States are here because the motherland offered them nothing but bare cupboards. Why should that breed patriotism?
Second, I assured them, most Mexican immigrants have in fact “bonded with America.” They’re assimilating — learning English, having smaller families, adhering to customs etc. Like every immigrant group before them, they have no choice. They can’t very well opt out of the process. The uninformed — those whose knowledge of Mexico and Mexicans never got past margaritas and mariachis — assume that because they see a Spanish-language billboard or because they’re asked to “press one for English” that it means someone isn’t assimilating. Hispanics in the United States have a purchasing power that exceeds $800 billion per year. $urely, there mu$t be $ome way of explaining what the$e marketing effort$ are really about.
Finally, I said, there is an unfortunate double standard in how Americans feel about foreign flags and those who wave them. A couple of years ago, Jewish Americans marched on Washington to declare support for Israel. Guess what flag many of them waved? And no one said a critical word. This wasn’t a cultural event like St. Patrick’s Day. This was a political gesture, like, say, a march for immigrants’ rights. Yet, some will insist, those who marched on Washington waving the Israeli flag were probably U.S. citizens and those who marched last week on May Day were, in all likelihood, immigrants. And that makes a difference. But wait. We know from media reports that many of the pro-immigrant marchers were U.S. citizens, including the U.S.-born children of illegal immigrants.
The point is, a lot of Americans look at anyone who waves a Mexican flag as secretly planning to take over the Southwest and hand it to Mexico. But they don’t suggest that anyone waving the Israeli flag - or the Irish flag, or the Italian flag or whatever - has something similar up his sleeve. In those cases, most people are likely to think that the display is harmless and that all we’re witnessing is someone showing pride in his ethnic heritage.
Exactly.
Ruben Navarrette Jr. is a member of the editorial board of the San Diego Union Tribune, a nationally syndicated columnist, a frequent lecturer and a regular contributor to CNN.com.
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71 Comments
newguy40:Good lord… The sophistry involved here from this guy…
Did the Isaeli’s also march with flags of Che? I grew up in Chicago and St Pat’s day had more US and city flags than Irish. And, no pics of Che, either. No advocacy for Irish immigrant rights, either.
It’ about time and place, dummy. The May day celebration was an advocacy for law breakers and socialists…
Why don’t you get it?
May 7, 2008 - 10:10 am Ed Wallis:I agree with “newguy40″…and what about all the demands that everything be offered in Spanish in the U.S.? …etc, etc?! Apologia nonsense: “Should” assimilate…but by in large DON’T. Making excuses - as this article does - gives legal immigrants and illegal aliens even less reason to do so.
May 7, 2008 - 10:31 am Concerned Citizen:I’d like the same rights these people have when I’m in Mexico. Then again, I don’t go there illegally, expect to get a job, have my kid’s education and any medical emergencies like three liver transplants paid for by the government (true story, this person is trying to get #4). If I did these things in Mexico, I would be DEPORTED. Not to mention the gunshot wounds I would get for waving American flags around like that in a public rally.
May 7, 2008 - 10:43 am asdfs:Ruben, you are a tard and an enabler of law breaking. No one i know is against LEGAL immigration so drop the strawman. Whne you say immigrants, you know you really mean ILLEGAL immigrants so quit with the falsehoods. And yes if they weer assimilating we would nto have to press one for spanish or see billboards in spanish because by law to be a citize you have to speak english. Why dont you look at how mexico treats illegal immigrants then come back and well talk about how the US treats them.
May 7, 2008 - 10:50 am Graves:This is a satire, right? Somewhere, in this article, must be a punchline.
I don’t worry about Israeli flags because Israeli’s seldom sneak into the US and demand the rights of citizens without the responsibilities.
I have no problems with citizens of another country, who demonstrate on our soil for better treatment for their country. I have no problem with citizens of this country who demonstrate on our soil for better treatment for another country. However, when I look at those who are waving the Mexican flag around in our country, they appear to be demanding quite different things.
Do you honestly think it is “nativist” of me to worry about a tenth of a neighboring country’s citizens moving in, against the law, and the effects on both nations, long and short term?
It is this sort of “analysis” that made me decide not to believe anything I saw on CNN unless I could find it verified by a reliable source.
May 7, 2008 - 10:57 am Gary Ogletree:Only one immigrant group champions a Reconquista fantasy. Only one immigrant group crosses our border illegaly in the millions. Only one country brazenly promotes illegal immigration into the USA and expresses outrage when we enforce our laws. Why in the world would us stinky “nativists” be offended by the flag of Mexico in the USA? What an enigma! No, no se pueden.
May 7, 2008 - 11:07 am cfbleachers:I actually have some empathy for several of the points made by the author. Mr. Navarrette has outlined why it is important for immigrants to assimilate. It’s “bad civics” and “bad manners” to flaunt allegiance to a “home” country and demand rights from the resident one.
Bare cupboards at home offered them nothing, so why would that command patriotism, he asks.
I’m not sure that patriotism comes at the end of a fork or a bayonette. An attachment to the motherland survives hard times, or it is nothing more than mercenary, transient and artificial. The statistics on the amount of money sent back to the motherland, is quite impressive…at times, staggering. Money earned here, is not necessarily being spent here.
Mr. Navarrette also seems to blur a couple of issues…and backhands anyone who might raise it, with a preemptory strike of harmful, hateful and half-baked accusations. This doesn’t help shed light on the subject, but it creates a protective bubble around some difficult issues that would more easily be swept under the rug.
Some people are genuinely concerned that we don’t conflate the interests of the motherland with persons here, fully, completely and honestly…supporting a political issue or an economic one is within their rights.
Folks who crash the Bar Mitzvah in the ballroom of the Four Seasons…and complain bitterly when they ran out of shrimp cocktail, somehow registers a different validity than the same complaint from an invited guest or family member. It may be bad manners in each instance, but it’s a matter of degree.
There are millions of people who are in this country illegally. To try to hide that fact, retards the discussion. To gloss over it, shines a light on the elephant in the room. They snuck in, they hide out, they are under the radar and outside the system.
It is true that many came for the “opportunity”, and yes…to fill those empty stomachs and bare cupboards at home. There is a certain nobility in seeking to take care of your family and willingness to take risks to do so.
Anyone, from ANY country…who is here legally…deserves every right, privilege, honor, respect, opportunity as any other person. And it should NOT be assumed that a person of Mexican heritage is not a full fledged citizen.
But to ignore the issue of the millions and millions and millions who do not fit that description…and to suggest that talking about it rationally, honestly and openly is somehow harmful, hateful or half-baked…is to protest too much.
When the Mexican community is willing to discuss openly, honestly, without pointing a finger of blame elsewhere…at the negatives associated with an uncontrolled “invisible” society hiding out in their midst, then they are enablers of that society, not assimilators in this society. If one wishes to eliminate “double standards”, it would help to distinguish from those living “double lives”. The best communities to address this problem are the ones with the deepest contacts within it. On that note, the silence has been deafening.
May 7, 2008 - 11:07 am Dark Helmet:Hmmmmm…… maybe it’s way past time to make it very clear that putting ANYTHING in front of being an American is unpatriotic. Either you are an AMERICAN FIRST or you are nothing. Apply this most simple basic law to every situation and they resolve themselves. FOR EVERYBODY.
That means, oh so damn basically… One Country, one money, one language and one GOD. The same one that got us here folks. If you can’t understand the most fundamental of concepts of what makes a nation then you are never going to be able to figure out how to move forward. Boy I hope this doesn’t interfere with your American idol shows.
And for those who scream racist, a place is not a race. Get a clue.
May 7, 2008 - 11:15 am Dark Helmet:WHERE THE HELL IS THE GOVERNMENT AND WHY ARE THEY NOT DOING THE JOB THAT IS THEIRS TO DO?
THEY HAVE TO PROVIDE SECURE BORDERS!! IF THEY DON”T THEY HAVE TO BE REPLACED BY SOMEONE WHO WILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT’S THE FREAKING CONSTITUTION!
May 7, 2008 - 11:20 am J. Fazeli:This is an extremely reactionary, not a progressive piece. Race-based identity politics is a form of primitive tribalism. It is hugely backwards. This Navarette character thinks he’s a liberal but he should study liberalism really was as it came out of the Enlightenment. Stop waving flags for anyone. That’s pathetic. Think for yourself.
May 7, 2008 - 11:23 am Night Owl:Yes there is a double standard. My impression is it is due to the following: groups like La Raza, and comments from immigrant activists that imply a sense of entitlement due to Mexican immigrants, over the “fact” that America stole part of Mexico. This point of view causes many Americans to feel threatened, justifiably or not, when they see large groups waving the Mexican flag. No one feels a similar threat from Jewish, Irish or Italian American groups.
It may be that the entitlement POV is not truly representative of the feelings of the majority of Mexican immigrants. In which case they need better spokespeople, and they need to denounce those who engage in divisive rhetoric.
May 7, 2008 - 11:25 am Anonymous:Mr. Ruben Navarrette Jr. is obviously taking the side of the illegals. Don’t get me started on the Che Guevara stuff.
I’d like to invite Mr. Navarrette to come to Los Angeles and tour the city. Visit a Home Depot; drop by one of our County hospitals; drop by one of our County jails; check out some construction sites; take an evening stroll through Echo Park; drop in on the 18th Street or MS-13 gang leaders.
After all that, I’d like to ask how Mr. Navarrette Jr. can rationalize that illegal immigration is good for a nation.
May 7, 2008 - 11:28 am Jason X:Gee. Did it ever occur to you why some are suspicious of Pedro waving the Mexican flag is because standing right next to Pedro is Juan with an upside down American flag?
May 7, 2008 - 11:52 am Andrew:Dark Helmet our resident sociologist everyone! I believe Latinos are considered a race by the way.
May 7, 2008 - 12:04 pm Cobb:I’ve listened to Ruben and spoken with him as well and it has actually been seldom that we have disagreed on matters of immigration. I think his POV is not idealistic or ideological but realistic. He is a responsible and thoughtful commenter and is far from trying to advocate on behalf of mojados. He, like I, recognizes the difference between those Mexican nationals who come here with no intention whatsoever to integrate except with gangs and perpetrate identity fraud, and those who overstay visas not flaunting the system.
What Navarette understands as I do growing up in Los Angeles is that there are a very broad set of people who come here from Mexico and South & Central America under any number of circumstances but the way to succeed here is fairly straight and narrow. Speak the language, obey the law, respect your neighbors. A few radicals are making it bad for a sensible plurality - just like VDare makes us conservatives look bad.
May 7, 2008 - 12:18 pm Jason X:A Latino is a person whose native language is Spanish but is not from Spain. It is not a race. Remember, Brazilians do not speak Spanish. Therefore they aren’t considered Latinos. They speak Portuguese. Many small towns in America were named after water towers.
May 7, 2008 - 12:30 pm Ed Wallis:Cobb writes, “A few radicals are making it bad for a sensible plurality….”
A few?!
Sorry, Cobb, even here on the East Coast alone there are more than “a few” Latino bad apples. I’d be more understanding of your words if your “sensible plurality” made a visible, concerted and effective effort to “police its own” to bring them into, as you call it, the straight and narrow.
May 7, 2008 - 1:13 pm Dark Helmet:Thank you….. Jason. Now, to add just a little more, in hopes that it won’t make your brains explode out there in pc land, a religion is not a race either.
It is perfectly fine that anyone who wants to come here for a better life and respects the nation by obeying our laws does so. We all know who we are and where we come from. Nobody came here because where they came from was better, no one.
Try this on,
” I am a Wopastan American. That is my culture. We speak Wopastanian, I broke your laws and snuck in and am living off your welfare system for hypenated Americans. You will accomodate me or I will sue you for being racist”.
Now try
” I am an American. My family came from Wopastan. We immigrated here for a better life that the promise of America holds ( opportunity not entitlement ) and became citizens of this great nation. We are proud of our heritage and love being part of the American dream. ”
Guess which one is more likely to not be a democrat?
Now guess which one is more likely to succeed through hard work and sacrifice for their children to have a better life and making the most of the opportunities this great nation provides?
Any takers on who is going to be embraced by the bitter clingers and who’s not?
We have 2 issues here.
1 is that if you don’t belong here, you have to go back. If bad things happen to you for breaking the law, that is your own fault, such is what you get for being stupid.
2. This hypenated American problem trancends our borders. It’s a sepratist racial issue. The aliens are just piling on because it beats every one down and they are afraid to open their mouths and speak the truth. It’s not the issue with them, see number 1 again.
They don’t belong here, period. There is nothing beyond that, nothing.
Andrew, I hope you will think about what I’m saying, it’s been said for a very long time when people were worried about loyalty to Germany in WWI. It was true then and it is even more so now when the very soul of our nation is at stake. We all have to pull together. That can’t be done by being divided from the start.
May 7, 2008 - 1:24 pm Michael Canzano:Navarette , is a shill for La Raza and all the other Mexican groups advocating the taking back of the Southwest states.
May 7, 2008 - 1:34 pm Catalonia:I have never seen any immigration group other than Mexicans fly their flag over an upside down American flag. “An addition of Illegal , non assimilating , entitlement seeking Mexicans to a Nation is a subtraction in civilization.”
Cobb and Navarette use the same arguement presented by those criticizing Islam. The disclaimer that the majority of Muslims are peaceful. Learn the language ,assimilate , love the country you live in not the one you left because you were exploited. I saw pictures of the Kommie March and they flew Mexican Flags , showed sympathy for Cuban Che and outright socialism. It was as much a Gringo Hatefest as Pastor Wright’s Hate White People and America speech.
… but the way to succeed here is fairly straight and narrow. Speak the language, obey the law, respect your neighbors.
You forgot to add: “… and vote yourself other people’s money when given the chance.”
Most Hispanics are Democrats. They are not Democrats over same-sex marriage, they are Democrats because they want their food, shelter, clothing, transportation, healthcare, child care, and free time paid for or subsidized by others, or their salaries artificially inflated to pay for such things, if they can get away with it.
Illegal Latinos come to America to work, but they are currently and will end up taking away the fruits of others’ work when their education-averse social strategies fail to deliver a lifestyle as affluent as their neighbors (or those they see on TV).
I’d be curious what Mr. Navarrette thinks about economics. Does he believe that economics is a zero-sum game, that Mexico is poor because countries like America are rich? Many of the flag-wavers believe this, wrongly, and it is for this reason many illegals believe they are owed a particular lifestyle. There is definitely an element of get-evenism and racial animosity to these May Day ‘immigrant’ rallies. After all, there is a reason Mexico is a dead end, and a lot of it has to do with the stupid ideas floating around in the heads of Mexicans. Not viewing the public treasury as your personal piggy bank to be raided at will, for instance, is a cultural attitude that has been part and parcel to the American cultural landscape, and it is one that is completely foreign in other nations. It’s easier for such people to chant slogans at political rallies and prostate themselves to bigmouth politicians and other ‘leaders’ promising them goodies than it is to get off their asses and work for an education that funds a decent lifestyle.
Additionally, Navarrette’s flag-waving comparisons are inapt. A better comparison is people’s reaction to a white waving a Confederate flag. While he may think the flag is a geographic/cultural symbol for the South, a large section of the population sees the flag as representative of slavery and racist attitudes, and thus in polite company its display is considered in bad taste. While someone waving the Mexican flag may or may think of it as a geographical/cultural symbol for Mexico, the vast majority of American citizens see it to mean some variation of ‘Reconquista’ or ‘we gonna git you whitey’. For illegals in particular to display it while chanting slogans making various demands of American citizens, 87% of whom are not Hispanic, is in bad taste, and politically obtuse, as well.
May 7, 2008 - 1:48 pm CWH:It’s all about context. Are you waving the Mexican flag in your front yard or in an rally of illegal immigrants who want amnesty?
May 7, 2008 - 3:01 pm mishu:Now,now, CWH you can’t have that kind of nuance here. Illegal is illegal. And my God, if you have to push one more button on a phone, it’s tyranny!
May 7, 2008 - 5:41 pm Shef Rogers:You are JUST PLAIN WRONG in claiming that the 19th-c. Irish immigrant wave was loyal and safe. Mainstream Protestant America was terrified of these Papist immigrants whose loyalty was to Rome, not their country. Behind this fear was a guilty conscience, born of the artificial famine that killed at least one million Irish peasants and sent two million more into exile. The only reason you see their wave of immigration as loyal and safe is that you lack historical knowledge. They were much more violent, disaffected and anarchic than today’s Hispanic immigrants–and now they’re just another subset of white American. So calm the Heck down.
May 7, 2008 - 7:27 pm Smarty:When the Mexican flag is being waved by Illegals, by people who want to take over part of the US, by people who live here and sponge off of us, by people who are a huge criminal problem, then it is bad.
May 7, 2008 - 8:19 pm Sergio:Hey Rogers, until I’ve read your message I was proud of the Americans posting their view on this site and I had a very nice feeling of peace seeing that REAL Americans still exist.
Believe it or not - you are not the key holder of the Truth of European history and besides that you should show respect to those WHITES who founded America so you have a country to live freely in and TALK!
Not some history knowledge is lacking here BUT the common sense is!
There is a very SIMPLE principle to be followed by ALL those who are living in America – which is: DO NOT DO to America WHAT YOU WOULDN’T do to YOUR OWN property or household – or IF YOU DO than YOU ARE simply A HYPOCRIT and a LIAR and your double standard will provoke lots of resentment and strife.
There is NOT much to understand or ask people to do in order to have peace and harmonious relationship - just have EACH person TREAT America as they would treat their OWN HOUSE!!!! It’s that SIMPLE!
Would you treat those who BREAK into YOUR HOUSE royally?! Would they be dear to you?!
Would you GIVE them SAME RIGHTS over your household as you have?!
Would you greet warmly and accommodate their relatives and friends who encouraged by their example will shortly break into your house and set camp into your living room?!
Would you strive to redecorate your house and change your life style NOT TO OFFEND their test and traditions? Would you?!
The ONLY trouble we the humans have here on Earth is the shameless DOUBLE STANDANRD principles!
May 7, 2008 - 9:14 pm James L. Williams:My ancestors were mostly Irish, but I wouldn’t know an Irish flag if I saw one. As far as I know I have never seen anyone waving an Irish flag, or an Israeli flag, or an Italian flag. The only flags I have seen being waved were Old Glory, the Texas Lone Star flag, the Confederate Battle flag, and the Mexican flag. I have seen a lot of Mexican flags being waved, and the people waving them were talking about re-conquest, and didn’t seem friendly.
May 7, 2008 - 9:16 pm jvon:When Canadians start flooding into this country illegally by the millions, I assure you that I will feel exactly the same way about people waving that maple leaf flag around in parades to show their contempt for the rule of law.
As for your “double standard”, why is it that Mexicans somehow have this magical right to ignore our laws, while immigrants from other countries (say, Germany, like my family) are forced to go through a legal framework?
Your argument is ridiculous. At least you acknowledged that the behavior is obnoxious, but it is also more than obnoxious.
May 7, 2008 - 10:51 pm Benson:I can’t recall seeing such an overwhelmingly negative reaction to a post on PJM! This guy Navarrete walked into a buzz saw…. I wonder whether that will suggest to him that he should reconsider his views, or at least find a more cogent way of expressing them.
May 8, 2008 - 2:37 am Benson:Oops, “Navarrette.”
May 8, 2008 - 2:38 am asdfs:Benson:
Well, he is a regular for CNN.com so that explains alot. Not sure how he gets on PJM beings he is part of the reason PJM was created.
May 8, 2008 - 6:06 am TomJW:If I were to wave Ireland’s flag there would be no one around claiming part of the USA for Ireland. That is why it would be inoffensive and why the Mexican flag is offensive.
May 8, 2008 - 6:30 am Reynolds Butler:If a Mexican is here legally, then I have no problem at all with his waving the Mexican flag. The problem, the huge problem, is that so many Mexicans are here illegally, mainly to take advantage of our superior capitalist economy, not to become loyal Americans. No doubt many of the illegals and their offspring will eventually assimilate, but the real problem is that our immigration laws are not being enforced.
May 8, 2008 - 6:45 am darnhank:Jason X– Loved your line about the small town water towers. LOL….. It is only the Mexicans that want to take over the southwestern part of this nation.
May 8, 2008 - 6:51 am uburoi:Mr. Navarrette pretends that there are no real differences between, say, Italians waving the Italian flag at the San Genaro Festival, and Mexicans waving of Mexican flags at the LA May Day rally. Let me point out a few differences:
Italians, Jews, Poles, and Irish are not pouring into the country illegally, and in huge numbers. By-and-large, they are filling out forms and paying fees and waiting endlessly to come into America legally. And the ones who are overstaying their visas are not holding rallies and setting up sanctuary cities and hiding behind legal advocacy groups, and calling their adversaries racists when they get caught doing what they knew was illegal in the first place. They know they are here illegally and are trying to keep a low profile so they won’t get deported (they also know how much more difficult it is to get back into the US after you’ve been kicked out to say, Milan.)
Perhaps it escaped my attention, but I do not believe the Irish, Italians, or Jews have demanded that whole departments at almost every major American university be devoted to their exclusive self-study and tribalist self-promotion (And, Boyo, if the Irish did create the equivalent of groups like la Raza or MEChA on campus, they would be drummed out of the college as fast as you can say “Flan O’Brien”). Even a cursory study of the various Chicano Studies Departments across the US reveals such a host of utterly indefensible racists, radicals, Che bootlickers, and tribal kooks that if Mr. Navarrette really wants to do something worthwhile, he has his own Augean stable right in front of him.
Add to this toxic mix all the political and cultural figures within the Mexican-American community who have long-standing ties to racist and tribalist groups that for decades have espoused crazy schemes of reconquista (along with violence, infantile identity fantasies, and racial belligerence), and it’s no wonder that so many Americans have about had it with the Mexican flag waving and public demands to give them an easy path to citizenship.
And if there is a tension between Mexicans who did arrive here legally, and the hundreds of immigrant groups who came here before them, I would place the blame for this frisson squarely on the shoulders of the Hispanic tribalists and Che flag-waving activists who have done their legally settled compatriots no favors. Between the millions of illegals who have gamed our system, and the anchor babies, and the public tantrums, and the lost tax dollars and the strain at every level of our infrastructure, and the incessant charges of racism, is it any mystery that so many Americans from someplace else are having trouble distinguishing between a good citizen who emigrated from Mexico and the throngs of men and women who pour across the border?
Mr Navarrette knows full well the analogy between say, Israel and Mexico, and the real problem of illegal immigration is preposterous, so I’m not even going to bother to go through the myriad reasons why they have nothing to do with one another, but when tens of millions of poor, barely literate, largely unskilled, Jews from Israel pour into the East Coast, and with tens of millions right behind then ready to come, and they begin making it all but impossible for anyone to deport them, and then go so far as to publicly claim anyone who tries is a racist anti-Semite, I’ll concede his point. Oh, and when the entire economy of a poor, third world country had become dependent on the remittances from their citizens illegally working in their neighbor to the north, then I’ll worry about the immigrants from that nation as well.
The plain truth is that Mr. Navarrette is a tribalist whose primary concern isn’t universal, but specific. He has a little perch at the San Diego Tribune when he can act as an advocate for his favorite group of people at the expense of other groups of people. What Mr. Navarrette actually advocates, though he won’t actually come out and say so, is a privileged path of access to the US labor market for one particular group that happens to be closest, geographically, to the southern border; a group that, as coincidence would have it, is the same group that Mr. Navarrette belongs to. What the Mexicans, and to a lesser extent, the Central Americans (though the Mexicans work very hard to keep them from entering Mexico) seems to believe is that their tribe possesses a unique right to live and work wherever they want to, even in another sovereign nation, and even at the expense of people from other tribes who might have a better legal claim, or may have a more valuable set of skills to the host nation–and they are encouraged in this belief by racial chauvinists like Mr. Navarrette and other Hispanic activists. The Raza tribal chauvinists do not care about Poles or Malaysians, or Filipinos or Nigerians, just themselves, and people who look and speak like they do. They know that when one group bum-rushes the border, it creates all kinds of complications for all the people, from less geographically advantageous parts of the world, who are trying to arrive here legally, but frankly, they don’t care as long as they benefit. Tribalists like Mr. Navarrette also know that this huge population of illegals may create a large enough political block that can obstruct anyone from doing anything about the next wave of ten million.
It must be irritating for all those people from around the world who would like to come to the US, or who are filling out forms and waiting in line, to see Mr. Navarrette’s people drive by, contemptuously thumbing their nose at them as they roll to the front of the line and over the fence. I can imagine it would make filling out all those forms and waiting in those lines look pretty stupid; what’s the point of following the rules when so many people are shirting them with no consequences? And it will only get worse as illegal immigration by Mexicans gradually supplants legal immigration; the sheer weight of the illegals will make it increasingly difficult to take in legal immigrants from poor countries. Our rhetoric about rules and laws must look ridiculous to those people.
As a real liberal, I believe in a rational and fair immigration policy; one that treats people from different parts of the world equally, without regard to how far away from the US they were born, and I believe it is our responsibility as US citizens to give those people a fair shot at getting here if this is where they want to be. Concomitant to this belief is making the effort to protect the rights of those people who are following our immigration rules, by permitting one group of Yahoos from storming the gates in sheer disregard of anyone but themselves.
Lastly, listening to apologists from mostly homogeneous cultures like Mexico lecture citizens of largely heterogeneous cultures such as the US is risible; like listening to Saudis dictate to the West on women’s rights. What’s even more laughable is listening to a tribalist like Mr. Navarrette habitually treat a tremendously complex tribal and ethnic nation like the United States as monolithic gang of nativists and xenophobes (the know-nothing “Anglo” hillbillies that Chicano Studies majors are so fond of caricaturing as “know-nothings”).
May 8, 2008 - 7:22 am Mekan:The problem that I have with the demonstrations being held by Mexican illegal immigrants to the US is that they are listed as simple immigrants. Pride in your heritage is a good thing. Believing that your heritage trumps the laws in the country you live is another.
Waving a Mexican flag is not a problem. Hoisting the Mexican flag above the American flag is a problem. Waving the Mexican flag in America while illegally being on American soil is also a problem. Anarchists, and their ilk gleefully joining into these same demonstrations only makes the problem worse.
May 8, 2008 - 8:19 am Cisco:Very proud of the ignorant and hateful comments from my fellow “Americans”. WTF is wrong with you? Yes, pick on the weak, hapless, dirty Mexicans while we export our jobs to India and give away millions and billions in aid to the Palestinians, whom by the way are far less dangerous than your dirty mexicans and probably esposuse those same values you are so proud of.
May 8, 2008 - 9:07 am Chris R.:It is quite obvious that Mr. Navarrette does not actually know any Mexican immigrants, legal or otherwise. I live in the largest border state and I know plenty of Mexicans. There are many themes in Mexican communities here in the USA and the most common by far is the absolute refusal to assimilate. I’ve met elderly Mexicans who have been here legally and illegally for decades. Do they know how to speak English? Nope. Do they encourage their kids and grandkids to speak English? Nope. Do they expect the USA to accommodate them in every way? Yep.
I once visited a gas station in a “little Mexico” area of Dallas, of which there are many. The credit card readers on all the pumps were broken so I went inside with everyone else. A white couple was in front of me and the cashier claimed to not know English, and so he couldn’t help them. He just refused to let them pay for gas and be on their way. Unfortunately for the cashier, I speak Spanish so I jumped in and ordered him to get off his lazy butt and do his job. He switched to English and told me he didn’t speak Spanish. The couple was outraged and they left. I was outraged and demanded his manager’s name and phone number. Her refused to give it to me. I went back to my car, grabbed my Windows Mobile device and looked up the info online, then I called the corporate headquarters and explained what happened. I went back into the gas station just as the phone was ringing. The cashier picked it up and was silent for a bit, then he started making excuses and lying to corporate about what happened. He claimed the couple, and myself, had called him a “dirty Mexican” among other slurs. I hit redial on my device as he was talking and I disputed his version of events. I was asked if I could hang around for 20 minutes so I did just that. A regional manager appeared in 20 minutes along with a replacement cashier. I summed everything up for the manager and she began talking to Mr. Mexican. She finally got him to admit to lying about the whole thing, and he also admitted that he behaved that way because he doesn’t like white people. Apparently, there was an issue with his personnel file at corporate and she asked him for his ID and Social Security card. The cashier had none, because he was here illegally. The manager called the police and Mr. Mexican was taken away, hopefully far away. The franchise owner who hired the guy was nowhere to be found and I don’t know what became of that. I received a bunch of free gas cards, and the satisfaction of watching that guy being driven off in the back seat of a police cruiser.
That Mexican was here illegally but he felt free enough to actually harass American citizens. You can see that all over the place. Heck, I just read a news story about a 10 year-old girl in Idaho who was raped by an illegal Mexican. She became pregnant and gave birth to his anchor baby. Is that assimilating into our society? Not even close.
I often ask Mexicans who display their flag on their cars, clothing, or wave it around on holidays, if Mexico is so great then why are you here? They always become angry and tell me that Mexico has a wonderful heritage, there’s just no money there. I simply tell them that a heritage of extreme poverty is not much of a heritage, and certainly not one to be proud of. The reaction is always the same - they are offended, and how dare I speak of Mexico in such a way. I tell them that if they don’t like our First Amendment then they should go back to Mexico and leave us alone.
When I drive past the various Cinco De Mayo parades every year, I honk until they start waving at me, then I stick my arm out the window and display my middle finger. All those Mexicans out there waving the Mexican flag are nowhere to be found on the 4th of July or any other American holiday. They refuse to assimilate so I do everything possible to make them feel uncomfortable. I never want them to forget that they are not welcome here.
Comparing Mexican migrants to European migrants is silly. Mexicans are from the third-world, Europeans are not. Mexicans are bringing the third-world directly to us and our government sits around playing the PC game. I’m currently making plans to move north, far away from the border. I read a local news story that made me decide to leave. The story was from my small suburban city, where crime is very low at least for now. The story said that a placenta was found next to a dumpster in an alley behind an auto parts store. It took a few weeks for police to locate the owner of said body part and it wasn’t that loony artist from Yale. The police report confirmed what I already knew - that only an illegal immigrant from the third-world would do something like that.
The MSM and activist groups can say whatever they want about how great Mexicans are. The reality on the street is very different. I’m sure there are some decent Mexican immigrants out there but they are a tiny minority of the total Mexican migrant population in the USA. There’s no need to rely on the MSM for info, one can freely travel our great land and see for themselves.
Whenever I see a Mexican flag or colors on display for any reason, I exercise my First Amendment rights to complain and question the displays. When I’m in traffic and a pickup truck full of Mexicans is next to me blaring their hideous music to the point of distortion, I push a button in my car and they get 1,000 watts of the classic S.O.D. song - “Speak English or Die”. They don’t like it one bit, and that’s exactly why I do it. They should feel as if we don’t like them, that they are not assimilating and we can do something about it as individuals. If our government won’t do the job then it’s up to us to make them as uncomfortable as possible. Right now they are seeing me exercising my First Amendment rights. If anyone threatens me or tries to commit a crime against me, they will get to see my Second Amendment rights. There was a time when I had tolerance for Mexican immigrants but that’s all gone now - it’s been used up by their behavior.
May 8, 2008 - 9:39 am EDW:Why shouldn’t Mexicans be proud of the country they sought to leave? And let ‘em have California, so long as they assume liability for it. Death Valley is way harder to cross.
May 8, 2008 - 9:42 am urbanleftbehind:uburoi:
Take thyself to Belmont Ave in Chicago and then reassess your blanket absolution of Polish immigrants. The auto dealers “Mowimy Polsku” or go out of business. Papers for sale just like on 26th St (the Mexican hood). We just had Polish constitution day weekend up here and its just a real riot!
I can also tell a lot of you folks never grew up back East hence your lack of perspective in re seeing foreign flags - whither Columbus Day in NYC, a day that of course should be celebrated, but in many respects a deliberate paean to Italian-Americans.
S@*&, U.S. Steel plants used to have work rules and warning signs posted in 18 languages. I’d take that in a minute-at least that plant would still be here in the U.S..
May 8, 2008 - 9:47 am Dishman:It seems to me that not flying the “ethnic” flag was a part of the founding of this nation. How often do you see people flying the Union Jack?
Navarrette wants us to accept people marching through our streets under some foreign flag, making demands of our government.
No.
We fought a little war over that principle.
May 8, 2008 - 10:05 am uburoisc:Urban:
I’m from back East, and am well aware of the Polish neighborhoods in Chicago, and the Italians in NYC, but neither group represents much more than a tiny drop in the bucket over the past 3 decades when contrasted to the wave of illegal Mexican immigration, either in scale or influence. Not even close.
Here in my area of LA, we have a little Russian/Ukrainian enclave that is far, far from being on the level, and I have little doubt that they are trafficking in fake passports, papers, and smuggling of all varieties. But taken together, all the Eastern Europeans, Armenians, and Asians in LA aren’t more than a trickle beside the river of illegal Mexican immigration; they do not have the numbers, the proximity, or the power that the Hispanic lobby does.
Your observation of the signs in many languages at US Steel illustrates my point: I support a wide-ranging immigration policy that accepts immigrants from across the world; I have no problem with signs in many languages, or with whole neighborhoods of different tribes and ethnic groups. My concern is that one bullying and selfish tribe will lay claim to the whole buffet and keep everyone else from coming to the table.
May 8, 2008 - 10:41 am GDI:This is America. Go to another country if you want to wave a different flag. My ancestors were from England, Scotland, France and Germany - you dont see me waving their flags. Stop whinning and embrace America - this is our home.
May 8, 2008 - 11:19 am urbanleftbehind:Chris R:
Get FAR north of Milwaukee and Detroit….we multi-generational Americans of Mexican descent won’t suffer fools like you for very long. We know and use our 2nd Amendment rights too.
May 8, 2008 - 11:19 am s sommer:Amen to most of what has already been said, my thoughts & feelings, exactly!
Now, be sure to articulate your points of view, insights, facts and strong feelings to the nut job politicians whom we have somehow managed to put in power over us, who are so stupidly PC that they do the opposite of common sense, and the opposite of what most US legal citizens want.
Our idiot politicians are already assuming that the votes of illegal HIspanic voters are worth more & more to worry about than the votes of the taken-for-granted’s.. (that’s you & me!)
Pound on their doors! Inundate them with emails! Mc Cain is already pandering for Hispanic votes and he is the “conservative” “traditional” “Constitution loving” candidate!
If a Republican cannot stand up on this issue, do you think any Democrat ever will? Wake up!
I write my elected officials on this issue frequently. They do not respond well. VERY BAD SIGN.
May 8, 2008 - 11:47 am chiefpayne:I think we should adopt the SAME immigration rules and laws MEXICO has to defend IT’S southern border!
May 8, 2008 - 12:10 pm uburoisc:For the record, I am not a subscriber to the “Mexicans are the root of all evil” school of paranoid politics. I spend a lot of time in Mexico, have worked in Mexico, and am entirely comfortable being surrounded by Mexican customs and culture. My wife and I routinely drive all across Mexico from Guadalajara to the tip of the Baja, and I would even consider retiring in Mexico if the rule of law continues to improve as it has these past couple decades. There is a great deal I enjoy about our great neighbor to the South, and I am mostly glad of the Hispanic culture in Los Angeles.
May 8, 2008 - 12:15 pm Chris R.:urbanleftbehind:
You won’t “suffer” me for long? Just what do you plan to do about it? Leave if you don’t like it, it’s that simple. As far as Detroit or Milwaukee goes, those areas never made my list of possible places to move for various reasons.
Something will eventually be done about the invasion of illegals from Mexico. Either our government will do the job as they should, or our people will do it. If the people are forced to do it, then it won’t be peaceful.
May 8, 2008 - 12:34 pm Jabba the Tutt:Ruben Navarette Jr wrote: “The point is, a lot of Americans look at anyone who waves a Mexican flag as secretly planning to take over the Southwest and hand it to Mexico. But they don’t suggest that anyone waving the Israeli flag - or the Irish flag, or the Italian flag or whatever - has something similar up his sleeve.”
Actually, the point is there are millions of Mexicans who want to takeover the Southwest (including Washington State) and they’re not doing it secretly. The non-secret conspirators in this aggression include the Government of Mexico.
May 8, 2008 - 1:28 pm Paul from Hamburg:Excellent point Jabba. The difference between Israeli, Irish or Italian flags and the Mexican flag is that Israel, Ireland and Italy are our friends and allies. Mexico is not. The Mexican government simply does not recognize our right to enforce our border; that is not the attitude of an ally or friend.
May 8, 2008 - 2:00 pm Mark:Chris R. - is quite correct. I’m only a “2nd generation American”, yet I do NOT hang my hat on my heritage. I am an American, period.
If our elected officials do not get their sh*t together and do what at least 75% of the citizenry want there will be blood spilled. The absolute worst case scenario I fear is civil war.
The real reason the 2nd Ammendment exists, urbanleftbedhind is - an armed citizenry deters both invaders AND tyrants.
It has been said that “Democracy is a well-armed sheep between two wolves”. This sheep is extremely well-armed: by education, patriotism, and projectile devices.
Think “inter-mountain West”, Chris R., for your relocation (just ignore Colorado, they’ve been “Californicated” too much)
May 8, 2008 - 2:23 pm Dave:I live in SoCal and work in Los Angeles and if these illeagle immigrants are trying to assimilate into US society I sure don’t see it. All they seem to want is a better Mexico.
May 8, 2008 - 2:40 pm newguy40:The one thing I never see mentioned regarding Mexican illegals and how we should just let them become part of mainstream society like all the other waves of immigration (Irish, Italian etc.)is that the Europeans had to completely give up their old nation and commit to America. Our latest wave never has to commit to the U.S. They can recross the border and visit home during Christmas or pick up a phone and call home. They have no need or desire to adapt to our society. They expect to rebuild their Mexico here.
Well, why should they assimilate? What is the motivation? The US and “Sanctuary” City gov’t’s not only hands out freebies, they don’t enforce the border. Juan says to Paco, “Hey Paco, there is a free lunch over there”. Paco say’s “What are we waiting for?!”
I am of Irish extraction and I have to wonder if my ancestors would not have reacted the same way? Heck, there was no gov’t assistance. You worked or starved. Heck, sometimes you worked and starved anyway…
May 8, 2008 - 3:26 pm chingache:What a bald-faced lie! Why do they celebrate pinche cinco de mayo here and not in mexico? Doesn’t it make you feel french? The mexican flag is all about mexican nationalism, mexican racism and mexican imperialism. Oh yeh, chinga that pinche musica!
May 8, 2008 - 11:00 pm Patrick:The illegal immigration problem IS a race issue. When most of the low paying jobs are done by Mexicans and other Latinos, and venture to say over 65%, that seems to FAVOR a certain race or ethnic group. So apparently, these aren’t jobs that Americans can’t do; rather, only Latinos CAN do!!!
If so-called progressives truly want diversity, we would have everybody waiting in line at every American embassy in the world have an easier process to come to the United States. There are more people than those south of the border who dream every night they could experience the opportunity America provides.
I recently made a trip to the Philippines and saw an incredibly long line at the American embassy for those wishing they could get a visa to work in the US. Their family members scraped any money they had to get their daughters through nursing school so they could wait 3-5 years instead of 15 years for process to come into the United States. It broke my heart to see them wait in line trying to come to the US; and then see illegal alien May Day parades at home demand more rights for Mexican nationals.
Infuriating, indeed.
May 9, 2008 - 1:19 am Eva Ritchey:When did you last see or can even describe an Irish,Italian etc flag in the USA ? You are blind, but hopefully not deliberately dumb.
May 9, 2008 - 3:40 am Dark Helmet:Most have come for a job not to be Americans. If there were no welfare benefits how many would come for a new life. We don’t want Mexico’s culture duplicated here.
Patrick,
Mexico is not a race. Period. You can not under any circumstance claim that it is a race. It is a place. No mammy freakin nation is a race.
May 9, 2008 - 5:55 am Smarty:This loser got on PJM because PJM is trying to make blogging “mainstream”, and to do that, they have to become more liberal, and let clowns like this on.
May 9, 2008 - 8:52 am Name Required:” Zogby found that a large majority of the Mexican population believes the southwest territory of the U.S. rightfully belongs to Mexico, and that Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without first obtaining U.S. permission. By contrast, Zogby’s survey of Americans conducted within a few days of the Mexican poll shows a large majority supports reducing immigration levels and wants the military deployed along the border to protect the U.S. from illegal immigration.
Zogby’s poll found that 58 percent of Mexicans agree with the statement, “the territory of the United States’ Southwest rightfully belongs to Mexico.” Only 28 percent disagree, and 14 percent are unsure.
A similar majority, 57 percent, agree with the statement, “Mexicans should have the right to enter the U.S. without U.S. permission,” while 35 percent disagree. Seven percent are unsure.”
I challenge this buffoon to find similar polling data in relation to Italians, Irish, Israelis etc. If this can not be done, please shut up.
May 9, 2008 - 11:46 am Johnnie:Let’s count the reasons:
1. Mexico and Mexican immigratns claim American territory.
2. Jewish American, German Americans, and Irish Americans don’t demand that their welfare checks come in Yiddish, German or Gaelic.
3. Most Mexicans are connected to Mexico by choice and travel there often. Few Irish or German Americans do.
4. The flag waving of others is a reaction to the racism of most Mexicans against the “gringo.”
5. Mexicans are Mexican first, American only for the safety of not being deported.
6. Most Mexicans hate the U.S. and their flag waving is an expression of that. Irish American and German Americans love this country.
7. Mexicans waive their flag and claim America is racist. Irish Americans and German Americans love America first and also love their heritage. They don’t hate or complain.
May 9, 2008 - 3:21 pm Nora:I am Irish American, so I can say something. No, Irish Americans don’t claim parts of America for Ireland - but they do have a tendency to send money to Ireland to support the IRA - and there are millions of Irish affected by the Troubles who wish Irish Americans would just shut up and stop it! Irish Americans and Italian Americans and everyone romanticize their ethnic past, and three generations ago, the Irish-Americans and Italian Americans supported change in their home countries, and people talked of going home — but the truth is, they never intended to go home. They left because they had no economic opportunity, or because of anti-semitism, or because of racism, and they wanted to go home as successful rich people. But they never wanted to make the US part of what they left behind. And a lot had such bad lives in the old country that they would never go back to live - they would never trust the government back there.
I am not surprised that people have a lot of ethnic pride, to the point of claiming that as a priority over country where they live. I am not surprised that people feel that the government should be better to their ethnic group. I am not even surprised that people feel that immigration laws shouldn’t apply — immigration policy was a lot looser when my family came older. What I am surprised about is that anyone wants to make the southwest part of what they ran away from.
May 9, 2008 - 4:44 pm Dark Helmet:Nora,
If you were born here, you are most certainly not an Irish American. You are an American of Irish heritage.
If you call yourself something before being an American, then you are not an American either.
Let’s be very clear here. Irish and Italian are NOT races. They are nationalities. You need to figure out who you are.
May 9, 2008 - 5:54 pm Eric:Throughout history, flags were a way of marking territory. Ships at sea raise a flag to denote which country they represent. The flag at Iwo Jima meant US Soldiers were claiming a win and authority over that land. When we planted the flag on the moon, we were claiming it for the US.
Therefore, when a person of any race/ethnicity/nationality raises a foreign flag on US soil, that person is claiming US land is the posession of the foreign country. Doing that either makes you a traitor or an invader. In a different place and time, that act would have gotten you shot.
It is also an insult to all Americans, especially those who gave their life to protect US soil represented by the US flag.
May 10, 2008 - 5:48 am bobby vassallo:I’m always amazed, when passing a US naval vessel in San Diego Harbor, even when in a small boat, seeing the ship lower the “colors” briefly to claim “no fight.” It is a time-honored custom. On Columbus day, lots of people drape themselves in red, white and green. We don’t mean it as an act of war, but as respect for a heritage. When taking to the streets for festivities, all understand the spirit of the flag, or flags. But, when taking to the streets in protest, one waves another country’s flag, it is an act of obvious insult. That slight does not go unnoticed. To quote the author, “to flaunt allegiance to one country while demanding rights from another,” says it all.
May 10, 2008 - 1:13 pm R Faber:Why is it Mr./Ms. Average American plainly sees the dangerous consequences of sanctioned illegal invasion of the U.S., but our government pulls the old “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil” response? The fiat North American Union enterprise is wholly underway without any public yea or nay. Our “glorious government” has secretly effaced all security and sovereignty without our consent!! No wonder Homeland Security blindly ignores horrific crimes against Americans day after day by these so-called “southern neighbors”. While FEMA revs up it’s para-military exercises and leases public land for secret purposes, we bite and kick against the frightening and mounting escalation of “us vs. them”.
Whether illegal Mexicans usurping our citizenry or stealthy jihadists floating incognito and waitng for some sort of “go” signal via global media. Wake up America!
These are perilous times. Whilst Rome burned, Nero fiddled.
May 10, 2008 - 6:16 pm Dark Helmet:R Faber,
Another voice in the wilderness. Keep up the fight!
May 10, 2008 - 9:01 pm SwingShiftCEO:About the only time I can respect a Mexican flag being waved on United States soil is when our boys in Red, White and Blue are getting ready to destroy El Tri on the soccer pitch. I can respect a Mexican’s desire to support his homeland’s soccer team, but if they are really that proud of Mexico, they need to go back home and fix their own country. We have enough problems as it is.
Ruben has always been a little disingenuous in his presentation of the immigration debate, as any of you who have read him before undoubtedly knows. He likes to label people that don’t like illegal aliens for good reasons as racist.
How a well-informed U.S. citizen that sees some of the detrimental effects of illegal immigration on our country (depressed wages, porous borders, etc.) can be called racist for wanting to protect their way of life is beyond me. Sure, they might make light of culture and custom because that is the only exposure they really have to immigrants, but they realize that there are serious dangers involved with having uncontrolled and unlawful immigration. Cultural conscience does not make these issues magcially disappear.
The real problem in all of this is the money: as with any issue we face as a nation, you can follow the money to the root of the problem. If businesses did not offer jobs to illegals, they would not come here. Just look at Arizona. A cop had to die there. How many U.S. citizens have to die before we get serious about our borders?
It seems as though we have a few too many business owners looking to make a quick buck at the expense of our nation, and not just by shipping labor overseas. Heaven forbid that any of them should be responsible for something equal to or worse than 9/11. As with the war on drugs: don’t go after the users; go after the distributors. Make the supply dry up because the demand will always be there.
Please remember to vote your conscience this November. You can and will make your voice heard.
Esto es para las razistas (y las racistas): si no quieren asimilarse, que se vayan. Si no quieren respetar las leyes de este país, por favor, que se vayan. Que vengan a visitar, que vengan a vivir legalmente, que vengan a trabajar y recibir el pago justo de su labor. No se vendan. Busquen la protección de la residencia o ciudadanía por medios justos y legales, y serán recompensados. Y después, si pueden, ayuden a su país natal, ni importa cual sea. No apoyen la injusticia ni la corrupción, sino ayuden a que leyes justas y líderes buenos guíen a sus países natales a las alturas del éxito. Si, se puede.
May 13, 2008 - 4:30 pm Dark Helmet:Good points, except that as long as there is a demand, there will always be a supply. All you do is ceate another job opportuntity when you lock up a dealer. Either people will have to grow up and not use drugs and start loving themselves and life or it needs to be made available in any quanity anyone would like. It’s called natural selection.
Either way, the crime goes when the profit does. That speaks more volumes as to why things aren’t being done.
May 14, 2008 - 4:31 pm mariana:“>Hispanics in the United States have a purchasing power that exceeds $800 billion per year.’
“…EIGHT HUNDRED BILLION DOLLARS PER YEAR???”
This Navarette guy needs desperately to have a conversation with Thomas Sowell and/or Victor Davis Hanson. He’s seriously “not ready” for anything but “propagandist”. mariana
May 15, 2008 - 9:19 am Cletus:Wwhy is Ruben allowed to disgrace the annals of PajamasMedia with his trash? Is there an obligation to give dishonest and incorrect “journalists” who perpetuate falsities a pulpit to vomit forth their tripe?
Jun 16, 2008 - 9:44 am