Pajamas Media

165 Comments

1. Mike:

There was a similarly insane Russian commentator on BBC 2’s Newsnight program yesterday here in the UK. While the rest of the panel were trying to behave in a somewhat pragmatic manner, the Russian guy freaked and actually threatened the West with world war three! It was surreal because I could not quite believe this guy’s outrageous behaviour. And he was supposed to be some intellectual. What a joke.

Another thing i noticed about most Russians I’ve come across discussing this crisis; is how they are all speaking with one voice of menace. Where are there liberal dove types? I’m not sure they have them.

Aug 16, 2008 - 1:43 am 2. jvon:

I’m sure there are “liberal dove types” — this is the nature of a totalitarian state. Those people are afraid to speak in opposition to what is happening.

Russia has not changed so much after all.

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:34 am 3. Dave:

Nonsense!,Israel and the US have been fiddling in Russia’s back yard for some time.
Notice how quickly the media has dropped the very important fact that Georgia initiated this event by attacking south Ossetia and killing approx. 1,600 ethnic Russians(with the training and weapons of the US and the Israeli’s).

We have a loose cannon installed in Georgia,all for the benefit of Israel’s precious oil pipeline thru Georgia.

Wait,I forgot,any and all criticism of anything Israeli is to be condemned as “anti-Semitic”,sorry…

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:36 am 4. Sandra M:

Woke up at 3am, turned on the TV and found Gary Kasparov on the phone with Neil Cavuto (Fox Business Channel) and later with David Asman.

Kasparov is the only Russian who holds any sway with me these days. Cavuto mentioned Kasparov’s a oped in the Wall Street Journal which has great suggestions on how to hit Lili-Putin’s thugocracy economically and when I tried to google it landed on the other russia.org website.

The name “Lili-Putin” was coined by Georgia’s president and apparently infuriated Putin.

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:48 am 5. Sergey:

Russian public opinion is so thoroughly brainwashed that actually today there are a lot less critical voices over there than one could find even in Soviet times. The whole picture fits perfectly into the Cold war frame described, for example, by Revel in his 1983 book “How Democracies perish” – with all those fellow travellers, planted propagandists, Soviet expansion and European finlandization. The only difference is the new Saudi Arabia oil tint: today Russian massive public delusions are facilitated not only through state force and lies, but also through short period of relative prosperity. This outrageous behaviour is a natural mindset of a Russian nouveau riche, the bum of yesterday.

Aug 16, 2008 - 5:50 am 6. Spinoneone:

How is it that the BP pipeline through Georgia from Azebaijan is Israeli? Human Rights Watch says that they can confirm that approximately 220 people died in Tshinkavale [sp?] but no where near the 1600 to 2000 that the Russians claim. Besides, considering Grozny a couple of years ago, how do the Russians have the nerve to accuse anyone else of genocide? Now we see the Russian troops adopting a “scorched earth” policy towards Georgian territory, including non-military targets such as ripening wheat fields. Oh, yeah, I forgot, that is how the Russians always treat their enemies…it’s right there in the Russian Army Field Manual.

Aug 16, 2008 - 5:54 am 7. Mike:

Dave,

That’s an awful lot of factual errors, lies and unsupported claims in such a short comment.

The people of South Ossetia are ethnic Ossetians, not Russians. Ossetians are a distinct ethnicity, which is what’s at the root of all this. How could a scholar of international affairs such as yourself not know that?

Georgia’s President wasn’t ‘installed’ (presumably, you’re suggesting, by the US). He was democratically elected (with a huge majority), unlike the gangster Putin and his sock puppet Medvedev. But of course democracy doesn’t count for much with you lefties, as no advanced democracy will ever elect lefties to rule them. Which is why lying is such an integral part of your modus operandi.

By ‘fiddling in Russia’s backyard’, I assume you mean ‘pursuing normal relations with an independent sovereign state’.

As for your claim that Georgia ‘initiated’ the crisis, would you care to offer some proof? There is no clear evidence as to who started the current round of fighting, but Russia has long sought to provoke a conflict in South Ossetia to give it an excuse to regain lost territory, and the worst that can be said of the Georgians is that they fell into a trap set by Moscow. And Georgia was, of course, acting within its internationally recognised borders.

And where’s your proof for the claim of 1,600 dead?

Your ignorance is matched only by your dishonesty. You lefties have long been a desperate and wretched bunch, but it’s come to something when your last best hope for the defeat of free-market democracy is the resurgence of a fascist gangster state, with an aging and sickly population, that murders journalists and political opponents.

Don’t get your hopes up too high.

Oh – I also understand that lefties have an irrational fear, mistrust and loathing of oil, but I really can’t help you with that one.

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:15 am 8. Per:

What about Russia’s attackers, – are any of them pathetic morons and maniacs?

I give a damn what you call me, as I neither defend nor attack Russia, Georgia, USA or Israel. But what you write at the head of your article, is about as true as the old story about Poland starting WW2 by attacking Germany.

Had your desription involved Jews, it would certainly have been classified as antisemittic, and for good reasons.

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:20 am 9. Dirk:

More speculation about La Russophobe and who may be funding this fulltime blog here:

http://www.timothypost.com/2008/08/13/la-russophobe-uncovered/

While Mr. Post is incorrect to say that plenty of fundamentalist Christians would not gladly invite him or an agnostic person over for Easter dinner, he does point to a disturbing fundamentalist Russophobia in D.C., fueled by the desire for more arms contracts to new NATO members and lobbying cash.

Senator McCain’s statement on Friday, for example, talked about Ukraine and Georgia as captive nations for “centuries” which obviously would go beyond just the fact that they were sometimes forcibly kept inside the Soviet Union, but to the 18th and 19th century Russian empire as well.

Any reporter worth his salt should be asking Randy Scheunemann (the missing man since this whole war started): does Senator McCain believe that it is America’s mission and national interest to see that every part of Russia that wants to secede can – but NEVER vice versa (parts of former Soviet republics that may want to rejoin Russia, like far eastern Ukraine, Crimea, etc. can NEVER GO BACK? lest this be viewed as Russian aggression). If so, what will be the cost in terms of American blood and treasure to such a staggering commitment, beyond our present commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:36 am 10. poul:

there is plenty of evidence that georgia started it, provoked or not – provokation does not justify an attempt for ethnic cleansing and massacre of civilians.

whoever refuses to look at this simple fact comes off looking like moron or maniac — or both, like the author of this article.

good writeup on how “democratic” gergian regime can be found here:
http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/conflicts/caucasus/georgia_after_revolution

the truth is, both georgian and russian refime are third class fascist thugs, but we choose to support the wrong one.

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:39 am 11. Jong S:

Russia is an EVIL, Terrible Lier. They will learn lesson only through powerful military action. We, grown up in the democratic societies, have no clue about their evil mentality. The US and EU must stand strong against Russia, but most importantly, should consult and listen to countries like Georgia,Poland and Baltic states, since they know BEST what is Russia. Russia has not changed at all.

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:42 am 12. Steve Nelson:

Over at Little Green Footballs, they’re quoting “La Russophobe”, an anonymous troll that unfortunately, is published on Pajamas Media, as an authority on Discovery Institute’s Real Russia Project and its website, Russia Blog.

Plenty of very popular bloggers, like the New York Times bestselling author and geostrategist Thomas P.M. Barnett, have permalinked to Russia Blog and have occasionally cited it on their websites. But I suppose Kim Zigfield thinks Tom Barnett is a “traitor” or “moron” too.

The author of Little Green Footballs, Charles Johnson, strongly dislikes the Discovery Institute for its position advocating “intelligent design theory”. Regardless of how one feels about these scientific and culture war issues, they have nothing, zilch, to do with Russia or the Real Russia Project, except that Mr. Mamchur happens to work in the same building as the ID folks and has the name of their think tank on his website. Nonetheless, one would search Russia Blog in vain for the slightest mention of intelligent design or its advocates. So much for the idea of Russia Blog as a conspiracy to promote ID in Russia!

For the record, this troll “La Russophobe” has never provided the slightest evidence that they have travelled to Russia or speak Russian. By all evidence, this person or group of persons cannot look up the names of Russian institutions on yandex.ru or other websites, since he/she/they typically derides anyone not having a page on Wikipedia or getting any ENGLISH-language Google hits as “losers”.

For her, if Yuri Mamchur of Discovery Institute claims to have a degree from the Russian Tax Academy of Law, and this university cannot be found using an ENGLISH language Google search, then Mr. Mamchur’s degree is presumably fake and this institution does not exist, or at least, can be said to be “highly dubious”. Who cares whether nobody knows where Kim Zigfield went to school? She’s a troll.

Naturally, La Russophobe did not correct her false post about Mr. Mamchur upon being confronted with the Russian-language website of the Russian Tax Academy of Law by several commenters. For La Russophobe, only a mailed diploma and dozens of other pieces of evidence from someone’s personal life would suffice, but alas for her, Mr. Mamchur, values his privacy, and did not care to send documentation to an anonymous troll without so much as a P.O. box. Would you? If Kim Zigfield did use her real name before attacking real people, would she then claim that “the KGB” will come after her in New York? Please, what a drama queen!

La Russophobe’s pattern, like that of any troll, is to always put the burden of proof on real people using their real names and always ask “have you stopped beating your wife lately” type questions. This was one reason why after two posts on Russia Blog in 2006, “Kim Zigfield” became the only person ever to be banned from Russia Blog. The editors of the website made an announcement at that time as to the reasons why. Kim Zigfield and her sock puppets were demanding that the editors of Russia Blog fact check and rebut every single comment made toward her or against her, as well as engaging in schoolyard insults of anyone who disagreed with her. This is akin to demanding that Tom Barnett, Richard Fernandez, or any other blogger who gets hundreds of comments a week read and respond personally to every single one, a physical impossibility for any sane person with a life outside of blogging (even for Charles Johnson!).

At the time that Kim Zigfield was banned, this person also claimed, that she could not find powdered cane sugar when she was in Russia (naturally, the year and cities she visited remained totally unspecified) and that it probably still did not exist in the country, along with many other basic consumer staples. When expats and Russia Blog readers from St. Petersburg to Sakhalin laughed at this, she declared that it was up to the editors of Russia Blog to produce bags of powdered sugar from the darkest corners of Siberia to disprove her statement. Typical troll behavior, the burden of proof is always on someone else for any statements he/she may make.

Little Green Footballs’ “lizardoids” have cited La Russophobe’s claim that the Real Russia Project, the program of Discovery Institute which publishes Russia Blog, is somehow affiliated with Russia Today TV, a Moscow-based, Russian government funded English language news channel that was launched in 2006 to give Russia its own equivalent of Al-Jazeera. Russia Blog has occasionally reposted Russia Today’s videos, but otherwise there is no evidence for this claim, and in fact, there is no affiliation, anymore than Kim Zigfield is affiliated with many of the news sites she reposts.

Kim Zigfield also claimed, in a convoluted, conspiratorial paragraph worthy of a John Birch Society member, that Russia Blog is connected to Russia Profile, a tiny bimonthly magazine that publishes out of the same old Soviet RIA Novosti building that Russia Today occupies in Moscow. However, other than a rare crosspost, and Russia Profile republishing Russia Blog’s content, there is no relationship there either. Most of the time, Russia Profile’s editors, like the editors of another website called iPutin, simply repost Russia Blog content without requesting permission, perhaps because they use a webcrawler to pick it up. iPutin also picks up La Russophobe’s rants, though Russia Profile does not.

As for Russia Blog’s alleged connection with David Johnson, a Maryland-based Russophile who maintains a very large email listserv on Russia, like Tom Barnett, Mr. Johnson simply picks up Russia Blog content when he chooses to do so. There is no affiliation, and Mr. Johnson often posts articles harshly critical of Russia and its present leadership. Mr. Mamchur has done so as well, but like Time magazine, Mamchur has decided to give some credit where credit is due for the positive economic changes that have taken place in Russia these past few years.

La Russophobe implies that Russia Blog is part of a Kremlin-backed propaganda effort in the U.S., and Charles Johnson says its articles “read like a press release from the Kremlin”. But who backs La Russophobe? Obviously it someone’s fulltime job, and not just the hobby of someone living in New York City, a very expensive place to spend hours every day on a hobby. Charles Johnson isn’t interested in such questions, even when his own readers confront him with La Russophobe’s track record of making wild accusations against anyone with a different point of view about Russia – that is, anyone who doesn’t think that modern Russia is the Evil Empire reborn. So I suppose she would have to include Thomas P.M. Barnett on that list, even though he briefs the Pentagon and has a huge number of fans in the U.S. military, and perhaps, the Secretary of Treasury and Deputy Secretary of Treasury for seeking more capital from Russia’s sovereign wealth fund to invest in the U.S. Ditto for the Pentagon procurement folks who use Russian Antonovs to transport materiel into Iraq and Afghanistan, something Senator McCain is aware of. Just because Kim Zigfield cannot find a link to an AP or Reuters story saying that the An-124s are flying doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. It’s called original reporting from original sources, maybe she should look it up. Anyone can Google the photos of these behemoths operating out of U.S. military bases.

Thanks to Pajamas Media’s editor and the editor of this site for finally allowing someone to finally set the record straight. I do not wish to engage the “Lizardoids” over on their turf at LGF or register with Mr. Charles Johnson, as he clearly has his mind made up even when confronted by his own readers with contrary facts about the credibility of “La Russophobe” and others.

Anything further I could say to him, as with “Kim Zigfield”, would get distorted and twisted beyond recognition before being reposted. And when “Kim Zigfield”, who is probably not a woman but a man, gets called to account for his/her slanders of anyone who disagrees with her, she plays the victim, saying “you slander La Russophobe”. That’s like saying someone is slandering Superman or Mickey Mouse – not a real person using their real name, or even a genuine dissident. New York City isn’t exactly Teheran, Baghdad, or Beijing, where there is a justifiable need for anonymity.

Over at LGF, Robert Spencer, the bestselling author of the book “Defeating Jihad”, which is what LGF is supposed to be all about, is also accused of being a religious fanatic, and has clearly had it with the fever swamps. Just because LGF is a right wing libertarian fever swamp instead of a leftwing one like the Daily Kos doesn’t make it any better (i.e. if Dinesh D’Souza and Spencer have the same publisher, ergo, Spencer must endorse D’Souza’s views, ergo, if Russia Blog has Discovery Institute on its masthead, everyone who contributes to it must endorse intelligent design, even when they say otherwise, if Kim Zigfield says Russia Profile is the same thing as Russia Blog or that they are connected just because the names sound the same and there has been some crossposting, ergo, it must be true). This is stupid, mindless, pack behavior from people that pride themselves on being smarter and more mature than the Kos Kidz and other denizens of websites they call the sewers of the Internet.

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:42 am 13. Not a Mack Fan:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/randy_scheunemann/

Behind The Scenes, Scheunemann Shilled For Georgia
By Andrew Tilghman – August 15, 2008, 10:25AM
There’s been a lot of talk this week about how Randy Scheunemann, John McCain’s top foreign policy adviser, spent years as a lobbyist for the Georgia government.

So let’s take a look at what Scheuneman was actually doing in that role — which helped earn his firm nearly $900,000 since 2004. Lobbying for a foreign government is a vaguely defined task that involves cultivating contacts, trying to shape perception and influence key decisions. For Georgia, the goal was clear — to get on track for NATO membership and secure western backing against Russian influence and aggression.

Schuenemann’s dual role of paid foreign agent (as recently as March) and key adviser to a presidential candidate is unusual, especially since McCain has not indicated that Scheunemann will recuse himself from Georgia issues.

That conflict of interest is underscored by McCain’s aggressive effort to influence the situation in Georgia over the past week. McCain appears to be conducting his own foriegn policy independent of the White House. The candidate is sending Sens. Joe Lieberman (D-CT) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC) to travel to Georgia, though it is not clear how their visit will comport with the State Department’s own efforts to manage the situation.

“John McCain is heavily politicizing this process. That is weird when one of the participants in the process is a guy who has taken $900,000 from the Georgia government,” said Steve Clemons, director of the foreign policy program at the New America Foundation. “It stinks.”

As a paid foreign agent, Scheunemann and his lobbying firm, Orion Strategies, filed disclosure reports with the Department of Justice, which offer some insight into the process of exercising influence in Washington.

Scheunemann spent a lot of time working the phones, talking to key Bush Administration officials about Georgia’s efforts to join NATO. He often spoke to Ambassador John Tefft who heads the U.S. embassy in Georgia, as well as Dan Fried and Matt Bryza at the State Department, Dan Fata at the Defense Department and David Merkel from the National Security Council.

Scheunemann also lobbied on Capitol Hill, particularly in late 2006 when a key piece of legislation was moving through the Senate regarding what countries might be added to NATO. He often talked and met with the foreign policy adviser in McCain’s office, John Fontaine. He also met regularly with Stephen Rademaker on the Senate majority leader’s staff and with Jessica Fugate from the Foreign Relations Committee Staff.

He spent some of his time dealing with journalists. For example in July 2007, Scheunemann met with with Jackson Diehl, a deputy editorial page editor for the Washington Post to discuss developments in Georgia’s NATO aspirations. Last year he wrote a letter to Harper’s Magazine rebutting a story about Georgia.

When leaders from Georgia came to visit Washington, Scheunemann was out at restaurants introducing them to beltway powerbrokers. For example, in December 2006, Georgia Prime Minister Zurab Nogaideli was visiting and Scheunemann arranged a dinner for him with Sen. Joseph Biden(D-DE), chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, Sen. Russ Fiengold (D-WI) and Sen. George Voinovich (R-OH), also of the Foreign Relations Committee, and Sen, Joe Lieberman (D-CT) of the Armed Services Committee. Also at the table was Jessica Fugate, a staffer on the Foreign Relations Committee.

Sheunemann also traveled to Georgia to host key lawmakers from the U.S.. For example, in August of 2006, Scheunemann was there with Sen. John McCain and the rest of a Senate delegation that included Sens. Richard Burr (R-NC) and Saxby Chambliss (R-GA), who sis on the Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe, Lindsey Graham (R-SC) and Mel Martinez (R-FL) of the Senate Armed Services Committee, , and Sen. John Sununu (R-NH).

Scheunemann also traveled to Georgia for more low-profile visits, like in January 2007, when he flew to Tbilisi and spent five nights in the Marriott hotel in the capital. In April 2005, Scheunemann spoke at a conference in Tbilisi, where he was identified as “a member of the Board of Directors of the U.S. Committee on NATO.”

In addition to peddling his access to Washington power brokers to Georgia officials, Scheunemann also appears to have peddled his access to Georgia officials to energy investors. Scheunemann worked with Stephen Payne, the Houston-based energy consultant who was caught on video offering access to top Bush Administration officials in exchange for big donations to the future George W. Bush library fund. One of Payne’s groups touts Scheuneman’s ties with Georgia as a way to forge deals with the Georgia state-run oil company.

Scheunemann has tried to distance himself from Georgia as McCain’s campaign has geared up this year. He de-registered as a foreign agent in March. But he still owns his firm. And that firm signed a new $200,000 contract with Georgia on the same day McCain called Saakashvili and then issued a public statement in support of Georgia. A McCain aide denied there was any connection.

“For a country like Georgia, what they are trying to do essentially is get meetings, to get noticed, to further their goals. What Randy Scheunemann was essentially trying to do is build relationships between key decision makers in the White House and in Congress, to sell the notion that this is a vital democracy,” said Clemons of the New America Foundation.

“What Randy Scheunemann achieved was an effort to kind of put Georgia and the ideological meaning of hugging this young democracy over the geostrategic reality of managing vital American interests,” Clemons said.

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:05 am 14. Sergey:

Hopefully any sane person and not only Senator McCaine believe that every part of Russia that wants to secede can do it freely. Othervise tha appaling expansion record of Russia which goes far beyond the USA national history will continue.

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:14 am 15. LazarOfSerbia:

“Russia is an EVIL, Terrible Lier.”

Really… And what is Bill Clinton in that case? Satan himself?

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:15 am 16. coisty:

When Ossetians were slaughtered at Beslan by Muslims neocons said it was horrible and it showed the need to fight Muslim terrorism. But now that Ossetians have been slaughtered by Georgia’s American sock puppet no one in America cares. It is reminiscent of the American reaction to Croatia’s Operation Storm – an operation that could not have been carried out without American help.

I’d be interested to know how Americans would react if the Russians started putting missiles in Cuba and Canada.

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:37 am 17. Jeff in Miami Beach:

I don’t hear much speculation or facts about how Russia was able to have that many tanks on the border of Georgia. I have heard that Georgia was attacking a region in Georgia that seems to want to break away. The only thing for sure is that Georgia needs to get an intelligence agency. They should have known that Russia was sitting there with a several hundred tanks. I can’t imagine that they contacted the US or CIA because someone in our intelligence service should have told them about the tanks and airplanes parked on their border.

A crazy side of me would love to see some A-10’s make a visit on the Russian tanks and some F-16’s to protect the air. That crazy side is controlled by the reality that Russia would go nuclear, literally. We need to close the Space Station right now today and rig it for demolition if anyone pays a visit without our approval. Get the shuttle up there get the Russians off that station right now.

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:38 am 18. Valerie:

Bill Clinton is a married man who lied to cover up a private affair. The Russians lie about murdering people and destroying property. The distinction is clear to me.

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:48 am 19. kabud:

A friend, PhD in Physics from Canada just emailed me this:
URGENT WARNING OF WAR SPREAD THE WORD
—————————————————————————-
Dear American and Canadian friends,

I dare to bother you with the letter on my vision of the current political situation in the world, because many people here are asking me questions on the Russian-Georgian conflict (RGC), and I feel that people are confused in that stream of information and disinformation that are given to us by media, when even New York Times publishes faked photos about “cruel Georgians”, only CNN was more or less good. Also, observation of the RGC helped me to find answers for many questions on the 9/11 attack. An attempt to predict Russian behavior in the future points out a very strong and close threat to both of your countries, USA and Canada, and I feel it is my duty to deliver a warning message at least to those of you who were so nice with me. Believe me, I wish I was wrong, but I am afraid the things are really serious, and I would like to ask you to be patient with me and at least to browse through this letter to the very end. If after that you don’t feel
interested, please, forgive me disturbing you. For those, who are interested, at the end of the letter I will suggest some additional reading, which could be helpful in understanding the raised issues.

1. About RGC
When USSR was collapsing in 1991, on its territory many little ethnical conflicts have appeared. Most of them are resolved by now, however, not in Georgia, which has two such conflicts. The conflict in South Osetia is the strangest one. Population of South Osetia is only 30000 people, only half of which are Osetins. During all these years Russian “peace” troops were present there. Yet many Osetins were given Russian passports – very strange thing to do if Russian troops were there indeed to resolve the conflict. During last two months from S.Osetia was setup lots of anti-Georgian provocations, and number of Russian troops in S.Osetia was increasing, reaching 10000 men. Looks like Russia was indeed preparing invasion into Georgia, which made Georgian president Saakashvili to setup a preventive action. Saakashvili is a young man with good education (MsD. from Columbia U, PhD form G.Washinton U), and I truly believe that he had no choice other than to
strike first. The whole Georgian army is only 2500 man, most of which were recruited only 2-3 months ago. How could they cause any serious resistance to advance of 10000 well-skilled soldiers? If he allowed the Russian army to do the first strike – Russian tanks would have been in Tbilisi (Georgian capital) within 2-3 hours and the whole country would go under Russian control. By doing the first strike, he messed up all plans of Russians, which gave him some extra time necessary to attract international attention. A very strong reaction of many countries and most importantly of the USA, which offered Georgians an immediate humanitarian aid delivered by military ships and aircrafts, helped Georgia to survive. Russians are not ready so far for a direct conflict with USA, so they agreed to sign a peace agreement.
I must say that I never liked G.W.Bush and cannot recall any of his decisions that I would support. However, this time his decision was completely right, and for the first time I agree with Bush.
Thinking on the reasons for this conflict cleared up my mind on many others political issues, including 9/11. By the way, pay attention to the date of the beginning of the RGC: 8/8/8 and compare with 9/11. Doesn’t it look like a signature? Well, perhaps it is just a coincidence.
Ops! Just now news came that Russians broke up the peace agreement. Let’s see what happens next. Most likely, they will divide Georgia onto two parts. However, if there are totally crazy, they might attempt to continue advance of their troops and get stuck in the conflict for many years.

2. Why Georgia?
I believe, the biggest “fault” of Georgia was that they dared to build a pipeline to transport Caspian oil to the West, which ruins the Russian monopoly of oil supply to Europe. Another Georgian “problem” is that they decided to build democracy and want to join NATO and European Union. Those who run Kremlin (kremlins) would prefer all post-soviet countries to have political regimes similar to the Russian one – such regimes are easier to control.

3. What do ordinary Russians want?
After the USSR collapsed many Russians feel extremely depressed and upset. They used to live in big and strong superpower country, and they feel humiliated by the West, which not only allowed the USSR to disintegrate, but also treats other post-soviet countries better than it treats Russia. They think, it was the West, who broke the USSR and they want Russia to revenge over the West. The kremlins use this desire of people to achieve they own political goals

4. What do the kremlins want?
Most of the governments in the world see they main task in political and economical successes of their countries. However, kremlins are different. They goal is to control over the world and Russia for them is not more than a very useful tool. In order to understand kremlins, one should recall they history. Before 1917 they were nothing, but just a gang which was robbing banks. Their leader, Lenin, realized that Marxism could be very useful, so they were robbing banks in the name of the communist revolution. Lenin had huge ambitions, so he developed a “scientific theory” based on Marxist demagogy, which allowed him to seize power in the Russian Empire. He was exceptionally smart guy, so he knew that other countries will not like what he did, so he was teaching his fellows that communists either win over the whole world or they will be exterminated, like cockroaches. He was speaking and writing explicitly in many of his works that Russia for him
is nothing else, but a tool to overthrow the world. Thus, he directed everybody in his gang towards building a world communist empire, and to accomplish this goal, the best engineers and scientists were working on military projects, huge amounts of various weapons was produced, while the rest of the economy was gradually falling down till the full collapse in 1991 followed by demoralization of people. It is very hard to fight for control over the world having behind a country of hungry and demoralized people. So, Kremlins allowed hard to control territories to “go away” and permitted some private initiative to rise up economy. Of course, governments of the new countries as well as private businesses had to remain under kremlins control. Huge growth of oil prices was very helpful for kremlins. Despite Russian economy is still weak, the kremlins accumulated lot of money so they decided it the right time to continue their job towards the world control.
Just a couple of months ago, Russian President Medvedev in his speech in front of all Russian ambassadors declared that Russia is going towards becoming a superpower again.

5. How do the kremlins plan to achieve they goal?
While some other country in order to become a superpower would build a strong economy, for kremlins this way is not good at all, because it will never bring them to control the world, so they don’t even try to invest oil money into science, technology, industry, or agriculture. They know easier way to become a superpower: set up problems here and there in the world, then pretend to resolve them.
First, they started with their own country, Russia, by setting up a series of explosions of the apartment buildings (1999), which took lives of several hundred people. For this, they used FSB (a new acronym for KGB) agents, which finally were seen by people when they were planting explosives and caught by police! But within a few days those guys were released from the custody, after some high official explained that this way FSB was checking how effectively the police works and the explosives were not real, but only imitation. Nevertheless, explosions after that stopped. Authorities declared that all the explosions were setup by Islamites, of course they did not catch anybody. However, the Russian nation was re-united, and on the next presidential elections it voted for a FSB-KGB colonel Vladimir Putin.
Putin immediately started to setup provocations here and there around Russia: annexing a Kazakh island in the Caspian Sea, attempt to annex a Ukrainian island in the Black Sea, cutting off gas and oil supply to Europe in the middle of the winter, etc. Now there are fighting with Georgia. Despite very few of the provocations was actually successful, inside the country all of them were presented as big achievements of Russia, so people started to love Putin, and their love was transferred on the new President Medvedev.

6. What are the main obstacles on the way of kremlins?
Implementation of kremlins plans can be disrupted either by interference of most powerful countries, like European Union, China, and USA, or by sudden drop of oil prices. Let me consider these factors one by one.
European Union. The kremlins not afraid of EU at all, because EU is totally dependent on the oil and natural gas supply from Russia.
China. The kremlins believe, they agreed with China. Just a little while ago Putin passed to China several islands on the Amour River. Strange gift, isn’t it? I think, he counts either on Chinese neutrality or even on Chinese military help, especially with men, at some critical moment. However, one should remember that China is run by a similar gang as the kremlins, so it is hard to be sure, if China is going to follow orders from the Kremlin. Also, for communists, it is a common practice to sign a treaty, but then not to follow it.
USA. This is indeed a serious obstacle. The Georgian war (see item 1) demonstrated that USA despite of the war in Iraq remains quite strong and capable to react quickly and decisively. What to do with the US? Try to weaken it by all possible means: e.g. make it fight some other country, setup a new “Islamic terrorist attack”, etc. Just a few days ago Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov directly offered a deal to G.W.Bush: we, Russians, take Georgia, and you, Americans, take Iran. Fortunately, Bush did not accept the deal, so the kremlins are likely to try another way. They know how to manipulate various terrorist organizations (see item 7), so it is not hard for them to setup an attack that would seriously damage America, but Americans will not be able to understand what is going on and start a war with some other country, say with Iran or Saudi Arabia. For example, using a biological weapon could be very efficient. I would imagine spraying some
nasty bacteria above American cities, so many people on the American continent would die. Separation by oceans guarantees that the disease will not spread to Europe, so Kremlins will feel themselves safe sitting in Moscow. The bad side of this scenario is that if America discovers the true source of the attack, it may attack Russia. Since Russian conventional weapons are getting more and more outdated and, therefore, inefficient for fighting America, the kremlins might have to use nuclear ones. If the nuclear war begins, Russia becomes one big target for the USA, but the kremlins won’t care about it – they bought comfortable houses and palaces for themselves in the Western Europe, some of which even have private nuclear shelters… I really hate this scenario, but since its probability is more than zero, society has to take it into account.
The factor of oil prices is very important. Many experts agree that the oil prices now are over pumped and may drop at any moment. When it happens, Russia might have a revolution in the result of which the kremlins will be hanged on the street lights. So the kremlins should hurry up. So, I am afraid the threat is very real.

7. FSB-KGB, terrorist organizations, and 9/11.
KGB throughout its whole history was using terrorist organizations for its purposes. KGB agents would deliberately search throughout the world for various kinds of unhappy people, who are already acting or willing to act as terrorists. Then, the KGB would offer them all sorts of help: training, weapons, money. They would offer help to pickup a good for the both sides target and to deliver terrorist tools to it. In the past, KGB had a lot of cooperation with many terrorist organizations.
One of the Al Qaeda leaders, Al Zawahiri is known to visit Russia in 1997. On the American request, the kremlins replied that Al Zawahiri was arrested at the border for attempt to bring little amount of drug, after he served several moths in prison, they let him go. However, a defected to the West former FSB officer Alexandr Litvinenko, who not long ago was poisoned with polonium in London, claims that Al Zawahiri undertook a special training course at a secret FSB base in Dagestan. After that, he was sent to Afghanistan, and joined Al Qaeda as bin Laden’s number two. Meanwhile, the FSB officers who had supervised him in Dagestan were promoted and re-assigned to Moscow. Thus, Litvinenko believed in existence some connection between the 9/11 attack and FSB.
Also, the story with anthrax letters looks very strange to me. As far as I remember, FBI found some man who claimed that he did everything by himself, including growing anthrax in his lab. Knowing the complicated US lab safety regulations I don’t believe in the FBI’s explanation. The guy most likely had good assistants, who supplied him with money and ingredients, but he did not betray them.

8. Role of the deception.
Deception is a very important part in the life of kremlins, which they practice from the time of Lenin. They see nothing wrong in breaking treaties and agreements, signing false treaties, pretending of being either weak or strong, assassinating political opponents… They often build their operations, counting that world will never know about FSB involvement. However, about some of the operations world does know by accident. The most famous one was killing of Ukrainian nationalist leader Stepan Bandera in Munich that became known thanks to defection of his assassin, Bohdan Stashynski. KGB participation in Assassination of Stalin’s opponent Trotsky in Mexico became known thanks to Pavel Sudoplatov. KGB participation in assassination of Bulgarian dissident Stoyanov became known when they tried to use the same method one more time and failed. The most recent famous case, assassination of Litvinenko with polonium is known to everyone. There were other
cases that are not so famous and I don’t recall them so fast.
The kremlins run several labs specialized in inventing various ways of killing people, like poisons and assassination tools. They have poisons that cause hart attack and quickly decompose, so they cannot be discovered in future investigations.
Vladimir Putin, a KGB colonel, who studied deceptive work in the college, introduced lots of knew methods. A couple of years ago in Ukraine we had a case of strange suicide of high-level official Kravchenko, who was found dead in his own garage with 2 bullets in his head. Investigators explored the garage and yard, but did not find any trace of anyone’s presence, so they had no option, but to call the case a suicide. Could anyone believe in a suicide with two bullets in the head?
KGB infiltrate their agents everywhere around the world. To give you the feeling how deeply their agents could be infiltrated, let me say that Condoleezza Rice has a strange fact in her biography. In 1979 she studied in Leningrad, however she is trying to conceal this fact. Why? Another example is Kissinger, who also often behaves strangely, so I am afraid he might be an agent.
One should know that FSB-KGB is built similarly to mafia. You can enter the organization, but you cannot exit it alive. Despite of this, some KGB officers do defect to the West. Approximately every year or two, there is a loud case of defection. However, defector’s life in the West is not nice and quiet. FSB is hunting for the defectors, so the defectors have to live under faked identity, being afraid of everything and everybody for the rest of their lives.
Just now news came that the kremlins broke up the piece agreement in Georgia (see item 1). So that agreement they used to calm the public opinion and to regroup their military forces, as they often did in the past.

9. Further reading.
First of all, I would suggest books written by Victor Suvorov, a former Soviet spy, a GRU officer, who defected to the West. GRU is an acronym for military intelligence, which is built on the same principles as FSB. In his books he described in detail organization of work in the Russian secret cervices, His books are written with easy language and can be read like thrillers. The English translations of some of his books are available online, so you can read them. Don’t pay attention to Russian ad’s, just read the English text.
http://slava.khersoncity.com/download/books/suvorov/specnaz_eng01.php
http://slava.khersoncity.com/download/books/suvorov/army_engl.php
http://militera.lib.ru/research/suvorov8/index.html

I also have an audio book “Comrade J” written by Pete Earley based on the story of Oleg Tretiakov, a KGB officer, who was spying in Canada and USA. If anyone is interested just bring me a flash card, so I will copy it for you. Or you can buy the book from amazon.com

About Condoleezza
http://www.jrnyquist.com/cibulka_2004_0816.htm
http://www.financialsense.com/editorials/douglass/2004/0412.html

About Kissinger:
http://www.jrnyquist.com/kissinger.htm

9/11 and FSB:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=17424AFF-8E69-4DE2-AE6E-C84B31DC2240

Russian concepts:
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/2008/0815.html
this man, Nyquist, seems understands things really well, so you may want to read more of his articles:
http://www.financialsense.com/stormwatch/geo/pastanalysis/main.html

Enough. You must be tired of me by now. Thank you very much for your attention to all of these issues!

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:53 am 20. Russian Bear:

Well, you say Georgians are nice and Russians are nasty, ugly and cruel. Why than Abkhazians and Ossetians do not want to live in the same state with Georgians (in fact under Georgians’ rule) and want to join Russia? This is a fact. Why in the recent war South Ossetians fled to Russia and did not to Tbilisi? Why they did not join Gergian troops to resist Russian invasion?

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:07 am 21. Valerie:

Coisty, haven’t you heard? There was no slaughter by the Georgians. The “News” as reported via the Russian government met up with an enormous population of people who have learned how to cross-check a story and dissect fauxtography and other tricks beloved by propagandists.

From where I sit, it looks like the Russians may have been able to disable the faxes and phones, but not the computers and cameras.

This story is going to come out, the whole thing, including excesses, if any, committed by the Georgians. There will be an accounting for the lives and property of the people of Georgia, and the people of Georgia will rebuild better than before.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:16 am 22. John Samford:

“Notice how quickly the media has dropped the very important fact that Georgia initiated this event by attacking south Ossetia and killing approx. 1,600 ethnic Russians(with the training and weapons of the US and the Israeli’s)”

That is because it is NOT a fact, but Soviet propaganda! What is a fact is that the Georgian attack was in RESPONSE to a Ossetirian bombing of a truck full of Georgian troops.
No, the Soviets, errr….Russians set this up from the get-go. If the Georgians had not responded to the slaughter of their troops, the Russians would have found another pretext.
Ths Russians are only fooling the fools, which isn’t all that difficult.
If the Russians have a problem with the Georgian action to protect THEIR land ( by treaty, BTW) then what about Chechnya? No difference between Russian actions in Chechnya and Georgian actions in S. Ossetia. Kosovo is the wrong comparison. Neither Serbia nor Kosovo were established by treaty. Georgia was. As was Chechnya. That is what makes the two a more apt comparison.

AS far as WW3, BRING IT ON! The Soviets backed down from War with the west because they knew they would get their butt kicked up around their shoulders. The Russians think otherwise. Georgia was a most excellent opportunity to show the Russians just how weak they really are.
The Bush administration wiffed, now we will have WW3 ( or 4, or 5 depending on how you count. Most historians see the cold war as WW3, since it was. OT for here, but plenty of bandwidth on that if you google it). Because this administration acted as craven cowards, they will encourage those in the Kremlin that WANT a WW3.
Even if Bush wasn’t on his way out, acting as a coward is the quickest way for an American President to loose office. I offer Cater and Trueman as recent examples.
Enother American understand the Danegeld doesn’t get rid of the Dane, that it just encourages him to demand more next time.
What other nation ever elected a President running on the slogan “Millions for defense, not a penny for tribute”?

“War is the remedy that our enemies have chosen, and I say let us give them
all they want.”
- General William T. Sherman

General Sherman has it pegged. If Russia wants war, then we need to fill their cart with it.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:17 am 23. Russian Bear:

Jeff
I think, the CIA provided information to Georgia, but it was not something new or revealing. The Russian 58-th Army, that was used in the recent war had been stationed right across the Georgian border for a few years. This is Russia’s North Caucasian military district, the only area where Russia has a fully combat ready forces because the war in Chechnya is not yet over, and there are active Islamic militant groups in Dagestan, Ingushetia, Kabardino-Balkaria. So, they did not need a lot of preparation to move the troops.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:18 am 24. seguin:

Who said all Russians are nasty? I know quite a few, and they’re good folks. But it doesn’t take all Russians to allow S. Ossetians to fire on Georgian villages, just a few hundred “peacekeepers.” And when Georgia retaliates, it’s “Oh my Goodness, what an evil man Saakashvili is!” Then you add in a couple days of “Evil bad bad Georgia” running in the Russian media, and you suddenly have a bunch of frothing in the mouth nationalist Russians freaking out about it.

I’m not saying there isn’t bad blood in the Caucasus…the 91-92 Ossetian/Georgian war is proof enough, but hell, isn’t that what the Caucasus is all about, bad blood?

And the Ossetians haven’t lived under Georgian rule for years. And which Ossetians? Kokoity’s Ossetians or Danakoev’s?

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:30 am 25. LazarOfSerbia:

Valerie, I am not talking about Clinton’s private life.

He did exactly the same thing as Russians, but on a larger scale. He said 100,000 Kosovo Albanians were murdered, in fact below 3,000 people died on ALL sides during the whole conflic. He attacked independent country that posed not threat to the USA whatsoever. He killed thousands of civilians, bombed TV stations, marketplaces, schools, hospitals, trains full of civilians etc. At the end, he took part of Serbian territory by force and recognized it as “independent” state lead by terrorists, drug and human trafickers.

So, the USA has no moral right whatsoever to object over what Rusia did in Georgia.

Compared to NATO bombing of Serbia, Russian intervention in Georgia is children’s game.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:32 am 26. Russian Bear:

Jeff from Maiami says: A crazy side of me would love to see some A-10’s make a visit on the Russian tanks and some F-16’s to protect the air. That crazy side is controlled by the reality that Russia would go nuclear, literally. We need to close the Space Station right now today and rig it for demolition if anyone pays a visit without our approval. Get the shuttle up there get the Russians off that station right now.
Jeff, trust your Presidents. Do not mess up with Russians. They have good air defense to shoot down your A-10s and F-16. Even F-22s. And they have S-27 ICBM which are able to penetrate any ABM shield. As about the Space Station it does not belong to the USA only. It is an international project in which Russia has her share. It is not a military project. We need it to do space tourism business.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:35 am 27. Tom Paine:

There’s a bit too much hysteria in these comments so far.

Russia has flexed it’s muscles and scared all the neighboring states into a more “respectful” posture — which IMHO was the main point of the exercise.

But Russia does not want to get stuck in another Afghan-style quagmire — meaning a totally hostile population supporting guerrillas with very modern weapons, who are also supported by friendly neighboring states that don’t want to be the bear’s next meal — and this situation would be easy for the U.S. to arrange.

We do not want Russian and American troops in direct confrontation with each other (the Cold War taught us to do that by proxy only).

But we can very easily supply Georgians who want to liberate Georgia.

It is a poor “analysis” that talks about America’s allegedly “limited options” but doesn’t mention Georgia’s border with Turkey (a NATO country with a 400,000-man military); or the big American airbase at Incirlik; or the Georgian Black Sea coast; or the 6th Fleet that can sail into the Black Sea; or the American airbases in Iraq.

If Putin doesn’t resolve this issue in about a month, Georgia starts becoming a “tar baby” he can’t get unstuck from without losing most of the “face” he’s gained by scaring everybody.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:44 am 28. The Devil Goes Down in Georgia « Voting While Intoxicated:

[...] Devil Goes Down in Georgia Here is the best summation of the Russian-Georgian conflict I have read: Let’s be clear: What happened [...]

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:49 am 29. Justin:

I keep hearing about “America’s Sock Puppet”. What exactly is it about Georgia or its president that make liberals feel justified in launching this claim?

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:52 am 30. John Samford:

“The only thing for sure is that Georgia needs to get an intelligence agency. They should have known that Russia was sitting there with a several hundred tanks.”

Jeff, they did. Nobody at state or the CIA wanted to believe them.
Nothing unusual in that. At the battle of the Bulge, SOME American Generals saw it coming, they were not believed by the Generals at the top (Ike and Bradley). Patton knew it because his S2 told him and Patton trusted his S2. That is why Patton was ready to swing his whole army thru a 90 degree direction change. The staff work was already done, because Patton knew the Germans were going to attack and the best response was a counter attack into their flank with his army.
Ike and Bradley had pre-formed opinions on what the Germans could do and they were not about to let any evidence upset those opinions.
Same thing in Korea, when the Chinese caught MacArthur by ’surprise’. Dougout Doug had been told by the CIA, army intelligence and State ( who got it from the French ambassador, who got it from the Chinese Sec. of State) that if he went to far into N. Korea, the Chinese would attack.
So either MacArthur didn’t trust his intell or he didn’t care. Most historians think he didn’t trust, I think he didn’t care. Mac Arthur wasn’t scared of the Chinese, like Truman and his cowardly rabbits were.
MacArthur knew we could beat them on the battlefield and he was 100% correct. We did and the diplomats lost it at the negotiating table.
What is happening here is similar. The non-military side of this administration is mostly liberals. They just refuse to see any evidence that their world view is completely bogus. They think Military force has been banished from this planet and will never return. Fools. Only the dead have seen the end of war.
The US military is split. You have to old guard which pisses down their leg at the thought of a war with Russia. They are in the military, but they have little interest in military matters. They see their job as piling up supplies. Using those supplies is a no-no from their POV. The other half are in the military because they understand that it is a honor to serve. They know that the Soviet, errr…. Russian military is old weak and a cardboard bear. One good strike on the Soviet command structure and the wheels will fall off. They don’t see Russia as a threat, but an opportunity.
Unfortunately, very few of the young officers will get their flags. The old boy system works hard to make sure they don’t.
So we ( the USA, we have NO reliable allies in this war) will not fight them now, while a cheap ( relatively speaking) victory is possible, but wait until they take a few more Democratic nations. The when they try to re-take Poland or Germany ( remember East Germany was part of the Soviet Empire that Russia wants back) Then the serious trouble will start.
On a positive note, Soviet weapons are not very good. That includes their ICBM’s. Especially their ICBM’s. At their best, the Soviets had a 60% failure rate on their ICBM’s. Warhead failure rate should be higher, since a thermonuclear warhead is the most complex machine ever devise by humans. I suspect about 10% would actually work. That is 10% of those that maganed to make it off the ground, actually fly toward theit ragets and get past SDI.
That is why the Russians are so pissed about SDI components in Poland.
American weapons are as reliable as a Timex. If we launched 100 ICBM’s at the Russians, all of them would fly. All of them would stay on course. ALl of them would hit their targets and ignite. A Soviet launch of 100 ICBM’s would produce less then 10 successful strikes.
The Soviets knew that, which is why they didn’t want to press any buttons. I don’t think the Russians do, which is a little scary.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:56 am 31. Insufficiently Sensitive:

very important fact that Georgia initiated this event by attacking south Ossetia and killing approx. 1,600 ethnic Russians

Sorry, Dave, that’s not a fact at all, it’s the traditional desinfomatzia that thugs recite to mislead the public while beating their victim. And those “Russians” may have held passports provided by Putin over the last couple of years, but a passport does not make for ethnicity.

Got any other desinformatzia? Eager suckers are waiting, and you might even get on CNN!

Aug 16, 2008 - 10:02 am 32. monkeyfan:

Great, now instead of Adolph’s national socialist NAZI party we have to contend with Vlad Putin’s national socialist NASHI apparatchiks and the state apparatus that stands behind them.

Nice sense of humor that, Vlad.

It’s as if totalitarian impulses of the 1930’s decided they liked being around so much that their ghosts have decided to come back to haunt the world with refreshed Olympic spectacles, ethnic annexations, and propagandistic scapegoating of democracy and capital’s unequaled distribution of joy.

The ghosts of fascism’s past have not-so-subtly readjusted their collective plans and methods even as they consolidate the technological means and bases of support Adolph and Benito could only have dreamed of.

Meanwhile our progressive Nero’s fiddle while handing out cupcakes and piping broadband propaganda to the listening audiences.

With all this history being [re]made we’ve apparently forgotten the pledges of “never again” and “peace through strength”. There have already been several practice ‘agains’ and sternly worded letters have served as our only response before Iraq’s people were rescued from their bands of fascists.

Now the free people of the sovereign democratic state of Georgia, who stood by our side in Iraq with more commitment than all the so-called great powers of old Europe could muster, are suffering the consequences of daring to defend their liberty and territorial integrity from the depredations of the new stormtroopers who’ve shelled and IED’d their towns and villages for months. We owe these people more than sternly worded acquiescence to the jackboot on their throat.

In the face of this brewing storm from the east, one would think our intellectual ‘betters’ would be sounding the alarms and shoring up the gates to protect the liberties that have been so kind to their class, but the opposite is the case. Postmodern obfuscation and willful ignorance is apparently the new deconstructed coin of their realm.

“Nothing to see here, look Brittney shaved her head!” “Save the Caribou!” “Carbon is the source of all evil!” “Impeach Bush!” “Give PC a chance!” “Wow! How ’bout that opening ceremony…”

Even as the ill winds pick up force, we’ve allowed ourselves to not only forfeit our energy independence to the most retrograde of regimes, but we’re busily pricing ourselves out of our manufacturing bases to assuage the sentimentality of useful idiots who would disarm us further. We are not the arsenal of democracy we once were and the fascist thugocracies of the world know this demoralization is crippling our ability to defend ourselves and others. The outcome of such a state of affairs is sadly predictable.

Socio-economic history has not ended as many would have it, it has only gotten exponentially more interesting.

Aug 16, 2008 - 10:05 am 33. John Bibb:

Lenin talked about the liberal “Useful Idiots” that would help the U.S.S.R (now Russia) gain their victory. We still have a lot of them left–a bunch posted their comments above. Actions (tanks / soldiers taking over a country) always speak louder than words.

Rocketman

Aug 16, 2008 - 10:20 am 34. George:

Saakashvili eating his tie on camera:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=09a_1218873426

ding dong

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:01 am 35. Rubicon:

If this issue is about S Ossetia, then why are Russian troops invading all across Georgia? Why was the seaport of Poti attacked, when it is in the western part of that nation & S Ossetia is in the northern part?
Russian troops entered this country in force very quickly. Perhaps there were troops already along the border. But why have armored divisions along the border of a nation whose army is 20 to 30 times smaller than the Russian army? Lets face it, Russia could overrun this country in a heartbeat.
Georgia did attack & they admit that. However, their “attack” was in response to attacks on Georgian troops, etc. And, that response was after numerous attacks by Russian troops stationed in S Ossetia.
These are facts from the United Nation, Human Rights Watch, & numerous reporters on the scenes.
Russian troops kept advancing south. They were moving toward the pipeline. The pipeline is now down. Looks like Russia wants to be the only source of oil from the region so they can manipulate anyone who gives them grief. By shutting down the Georgian pipeline, Russia gains the ability to strong-arm any responses from European nations. (Like they would have done anything about anything anyway!)
If Russians are despondent over their loss of stature in the world, it is because someone internally has egged them on. Most Americans I know actually respect Russia. They just do not trust her when actions like these take place.
In the end, Georgia was NO threat to Russia or any of the Russian citizens transplanted in S Ossetia or any who may be in Abkhazia.
Since Poland just announced it would allow the new missile defense sites to be placed on Polish soil, I think this real issue in Georgia is based on Russia’s fears that the Georgians may also allow such missile defense systems to be placed on Georgian soil.
Ironically, America’s missile defense systems that are to be installed have nothing to do with Russia. At this time, America fears actions by despots & terrorists in the middle east. Most here thought we would be able to build a relationship with Russia that all could profit from, in peace!

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:09 am 36. eran.ru:

Thanks for link with Saakashvili`s dinner with tie.His eyes running,I understand him,he is afraid of osetian ,his army killed so much peaceful people.

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:18 am 37. Neo-neocon:

Ronald Reagan has ability to convince Russia in American moral superiority. Russians peacefully disassembled their empire letting every republic to go as it wants. Some of them had later regretted their split and asked Russia to take them back, but Russian did not want it. Russians were looking at US exactly with the same hopes as Georgians were looking at US before last week. Russians did not get a lot of good from US and later realized that nobody can think for them and rebuild their country and economy for them. American patterns do not work in Russia as Soldjenizin noted. Putting all bets on someone else, even on America is a bad idea; everyone should has its own way, even if others do not like it. Putin got this point and did what worked.
Now, Bush’s policies in Iraq have convinced Russians of American moral inferiority and they make it clear to the world, while Europeans can sympathize with their views. Besides that, they also started to think (as much as Europeans do) that Americans are morons and idiots. And Busch administration has to be credited for that. At the moment Russians think that they were too nice with US and that it was wrong idea to be that nice.
Bush have destroyed the image of US as a morally superior nation which was built by Ronald Reagan. Besides that, his economic policies seems destroyed middle class in US and we find ourselves in a situation that there are not too many people who can afford to buy much goods and generate the revenues for our businesses. The value of US dollar is down and is less than of Canadian dollar. Under these circumstances, even Republican voters had chosen the Republican candidate endorsed by New York Times! Can you dig this? And who of you would sent his/her paper for publication in NYT, just to get it rejected as McCain did?
I regret to say it guys, but that is our own neocon’s policies were idiotic and moronic, starting from our delusion that we can import democracy to savage Muslim nations where people believe that jihad for the sake of Allah is the goal of life and that the infidels like ourselves are unclean . We should have known it better that it is not their leaders, but their people who hate us and will hate us until Islam exist. Regarding Georgia, someone should have noted that Saakashvilli sucks.
It is time to renew our policies and make them grounded in a better understanding of other peoples believes and intentions. Before we get chance to do that, we are up for having Barrack Obama at least for 4 years. You guys will not like his presidency, but you will have to suck it up.

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:40 am 38. Brian:

People who defend the Russian position are also the same who defend terrorist organizations.In other words if its against the West,we are for it motto.This is very tiresome,annoying and if these people think that my generation(late Cold war era circa 1970)or the next is going to fall for these obvious attempts at deception and crude lies and propaganda,then they are stupider than the Russians.
John Bibb is correct when labeling them useful idiots.These idiots undermine the military(”budget cuts”),they undermine are education system(get em when they are young),and more dangerously these idiots have financially sent money to help ‘palestinian charities’and thier ilk.Then they wonder why they get placed on terrorist watch list!
Freedom of speech is non-negotiable.Its a way better system than anything else on this world.Capitalism works ,communism or socialism doesnt.Unfortunately some still actually believe that communism/socialism will work.Tell that to the millions that have died either from starvation or killed because they disagreed with these commies or fascist thugs.
The georgians sent 2000 troops to Iraq.Thats more than most European countries.Actually its almost the same amount of troops Canada has sent to Afganistan and Canada has 8 times the population!My support is for Poland and Georgia.If our militaries cant do much at the moment then that doesnt stop concerned citizens around the globe from financially backing their struggle.

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:55 am 39. j green:

Pursuant to the Foreign Agents Registration Act, Ms. Ivanova should immediately proceed to register herself as a Russian agent. The tone of her (propaganda) piece is practically a confession. Basically, Ms. Zigfeld argues that the underlying piece is utterly devoid of any journalism, and she is right.

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:59 am 40. Russia » Can Russia Actually, Legitimately, Really Claim 'Genocide'?:

[...] Russia’s Pathetic DefendersThose trying to justify Russia’s actions come off looking like morons or maniacs — or both. [...]

Aug 16, 2008 - 12:13 pm 41. monkeyfan:

I don’t think the Russian apologists in this thread realize how transparent the are. The syntax, spelling, and word choices are just a little off.

They obviously don’t quite grok us enough to realize that trying to pass themselves off as Americans while trashing liberty in general, using verifiable lies, is not likely to have the effect they intended.

Aug 16, 2008 - 12:29 pm 42. fred:

I am not much bothered by the agents of dizinformatzia. Even the sophisticated ones are easy to spot. They are working for their country and that is to be expected. We can deal with it.

What is most distressing to me and perhaps to many other Americans like me are fellow Americans who root for the enemy, excuse them, rationalize what they do. THAT is hard to swallow. The enemy has been hard at work trying to sink in deeply into our society and its institutions since 1917. The Red Diaper Babies are aging now, but their young charges are carrying forward their life’s work. Now, they have the perfect Manchurian Candidate who attracts money from foreign donors and our media and federal campaign finance commission will not look into it.

It seems the trends in our society all point towards a showdown with the various forms of statism/Marxism/Socialism/Communism/Trotskyism. Of course, the true believers in these things are not going to come out and honestly admit who they are and that they affirm socialism. They have at least thirty years of re-packaging their views under different names. That is why it is difficult to name them and put them under the lights.

Aug 16, 2008 - 1:13 pm 43. misanthropicus:

Useful idiots – some cynical anti-American (& Western world) rats, some fanatics, some ignorants, some idiots.
Yet sure useful, for clouding Russia’s/Soviet Union’s imperialist & brutal nature.
Unfortunaetly, I haven’s seen any crowds in Berlin, Rome or elsewhere running on the streets and burning Russian flags – twisted history is, indeed.

Aug 16, 2008 - 1:30 pm 44. Jarhead:

Monkeyfan – You hit it. Every blog I’ve seen with Russian apologists has been just a little off key. I’ll admit they are great at repeating the party line in spite of any contrary facts.

Aug 16, 2008 - 1:37 pm 45. Javelin:

Dave, yeah right it’s Israel’s pipeline, lay off the pipe, dude!

Aug 16, 2008 - 1:40 pm 46. Javelin:

I mean, what else can we expect from Russia, they were always backwards, brutal and prone to despotism and imperialism.

Aug 16, 2008 - 1:45 pm 47. M. Simon:

I like Pitler for Putin’s moniker.

Aug 16, 2008 - 2:00 pm 48. M. Simon:

My Russian friend says:

Russians did not get a lot of good from US and later realized that nobody can think for them and rebuild their country and economy for them.

As I recall our Japanese friends rebuilt their own economy. How did they do it? They found out what Americans wanted to buy and built it to standard’s Americans would accept. South Korea the same. Hell, even the Chinese figured it out. They started out with tools and worked their way up. What is a matter with the Russians? They are good at churning out vodka and extracting resources and not much else. Why?

I think it is the fact that resource wealth is a curse for most poor countries.

Aug 16, 2008 - 2:11 pm 49. Jarhead:

Japan, China, Korea all have a strong work ethic. Most Americans do too. Doesn’t sound like the case in old Russia.

Aug 16, 2008 - 2:50 pm 50. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Pathetic, Indeed

If you want an example of people pathetic defense of this blatant aggression on the part of the Russian government….

….take a look at….

…THIS S—!

Seriously, folks. There’s some character claiming that the Georgians are beheading innocent people in the streets, without any supporting evidence. Meanwhile, elsewhere on the web, we’ve got video of Russian soldiers looting a bank. And none of them look like Clint Eastwood…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 16, 2008 - 3:30 pm 51. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Signs of the Coming Apocalypse; Javelin Talking Sense (Part 1; hopefully)

“I mean, what else can we expect from Russia, they were always backwards, brutal and prone to despotism and imperialism.” — Javelin

’nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 16, 2008 - 3:34 pm 52. Lex Rationis:

The Facts are clear. The US sponsored/installed Sakashvili. Sakashvili is hardly a democratic person. He brutally oppressed the opposition in the last elections and shutted down some TV-Stations that were critical of him. The US supplied Sakashvili with weapons and military training.

So, when in August some tensions with the seperatist flared up again, what is quite normal for this time of year, suddenly Sakashvili decided to invade South Ossetia. He used area damage weapons to attack the capital of South Ossetia killing thereby hundreds if not thousands of civilians. Sakashvili himself announced it in the Georgian television saying he wanted to restore the constitutional order.

After Russia unsuccesfuly tried to stop the Georgian aggression through the UN security council it started to move its own troops in to defend its citizens. The Georgian army had already ocupied the capital of South Ossetia when the Russians arrived there to force them out. But instead to retreat the Georgian army started a second failed attempt to retake the capital.

It is logical that the Russians would eleminate every possibility that the Georgians could do something like this again. Therefore they had to destroy the Georgian military infrastructure which, by the way, was financed mainly by the american tax payer. To destroy the military infrastructure of the enemy one has to invade the enemy country, and this is why the Russians invaded Georgia proper.

I think Russias actions are justified and appropriate by our own standards. We bombed for months the hell out of Serbia. The Russian military operation lasted for 5 days, and took even fewer civilian causalities.

I love and respect the American values but on this issue the actions of the US Government are condemnable and despicable.

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:02 pm 53. Chuckles48:

Personally, I’m hoping the factual content of Ms. Ivanova’s comments are brought up to her graduate program. Her logical failures should be sufficient to, potentially, fail out from the Masters program.

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:07 pm 54. Neo-neocon:

Jarhead:
Japan, China, Korea all have a strong work ethic. Most Americans do too. Doesn’t sound like the case in old Russia.

Neo-neocon:
You are right. Russia has many problems, work ethics is one of them, corruption is another, there are even harder problems associated with cultural patterns. As a Russian I know all that.

But, do you think that Georgia does not have those problems? Guess what, they are even worse than Russians. They were considered to be most corrupted republic in Soviet Union. So, what are the advantages for US in sticking with Georgia rather than Russia (or China or North Korea ).

Most importantly, is Russian stupidity and backwardness is a good excuse for Americans to do the stupid things? Is Russian immorality a good excuse for America to do immoral things? Is Russian immorality and stupidity going to justify Clinton’s pants down presidency or Busch’s social engineering in Iraq?

Fred:
The enemy has been hard at work trying to sink in deeply into our society and its institutions since 1917. The Red Diaper Babies are aging now, but their young charges are carrying forward their life’s work.

Neo-neocon:
You are right, my conservative friend. Even if you have not made any real contribution to the fight with Communism, you are making a very good point. Russia has been recently struggling with wild capitalism, you can talk about their imperial ambitions, but they may not fit in the old stereotypes of Leninists/Marxists/socialists. At this moment of history, the fight with Communism is not a problem of confronting Russia or China, but is a problem of confronting the left liberals in Europe and US. To your surprise, they are already dominating US universities and poison US student’s minds with their venom for this country. They do not have much intelligence, knowledge or skills. They do not know much about history, they know just Marxist cliché. You can talk to them and confront them with the facts, but you have to know those facts. And in this country (run by a guy who did not even had a passport when was elected, who knows no foreign languages) not so many people know history and can confront thos Communists professors on their ground. And of course those guys not read pajamasmedia, they just read NYT.

One question which you may consider is why and how and where those Communists strike? Ask yourself, why did they strike in Russia in 1917, why do we have so many leftists in Latin America and why we are spared of them in Europe and US? IMHO it has to do something with business ethics in those contries. If you look at Russian elite of 1917 or modern Latin American elite, you will find them to be cruel savages who fit into Marx description of entrepreneurs. English or US entrepreneurs where and are much more human, that is why Communism has not striked in England or US.

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:10 pm 55. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Lex Rationis

His point seems to be that US is doing, once again, what US did in Chili.

I find this hard to accept at face value. It’s more along the lines of the song-and-dance presented over on Registan; which I pointed out above.

They and he are trying to whitewash the Russian invasion as justifiable. On what grounds? That the West supports the current Georgian government. After all, if the West supports it, it MUST be ‘bad’.

However, there is not supporting evidence.

This action, as far as I can tell, is nothing more, nor anything less, than Sudetendland 2008.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 16, 2008 - 4:21 pm 56. cedarford:

Russian Bear – Jeff, trust your Presidents. Do not mess up with Russians. They have good air defense to shoot down your A-10s and F-16. Even F-22s.

I read an Australian review of Russian air defense systems that was very worrying. Essentially the newer S-300P/V and S-400 mixed range systems. All with AEGIS-like phased radar systems and anti-jamming systems fitted with the latest Western electronics, computer-driven ECCM. The conclusion is they are very, very dangerous to any aircraft (90%+ kill probabilities) outside possibly the F-22 and B-2. And 70% effective on cruise missiles per shot and even capable of ICBM-killing.

Essentially, better, and longer range than the Patriot missile system.

The Aussies have assessed them because they are worried that Russia may be tempted to export the systems to countries Australia may have to contend with regionally, and have nothing in their air power wing that can contend with the Russian high-tech missiles except perhaps flying F-111s very, very low in terrain-hugging mode in areas that the defending Nation cannot set up air or mountain top “look-down radar systems” in an adequate network.

The Russian air defense missiles can extend out to 300 KM, making AWACS and JSTARs assets also at risk.

John Samford – On a positive note, Soviet weapons are not very good.

Don’t delude yourself. For what Russia wants to do, maintain it’s security and it’s traditional sphere of influence, the quanity and new modern quality of it’s weapons are plenty good enough.

Fred – What is most distressing to me and perhaps to many other Americans like me are fellow Americans who root for the enemy, excuse them, rationalize what they do. THAT is hard to swallow.

No Fred, what most Americans are now objecting to is brainless neocon sympathizers waving their sabers in their armchairs and calling for endless wars against what they consider America’s endless enemies. Enemies because they fail to do exactly what neocons want them to do, and accept America’s dual standards on Israel, encroachment on spheres of influence, and who is allowed to get bombed for resisting the right of “freedom-loving” people like the Chechens and Kosovars to self-determination, but not the Ossetians, Palestinians, Moros, Basques…

Reference Pat Buchanan’s article on what seems the Neocon determination since 1994 to provoke Russia into becoming, again, a great enemy of America.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053

Bear-baiting was apparantly great fun, as long as the bear was weak and prostrate. And we could rub their nose in it with a string of humiliations in a way we avoided doing with the Japanese, Germans, Vietnamese, and even the backstabbing “noble purple-fingered freedom-lovers” of Iraq after conclusion of major hostilities and the disastrous Bremer decisions.
But the Bear is resusitated, and just bit back, to backers of the “American Imperium & Hegemony’s” utter shock. Who, because we are overextended, shudder from conscripting adequate troops, and have united the world and most of America against more military adventures in lands outside our vital interests – can only sputter their “deep shock and outrage! Outrage!”

Aug 16, 2008 - 5:07 pm 57. monkeyfan:

So cedarford are you essentially saying it’s the Zionists fault Russian corporatist oligarchs don’t like us anymore?

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:11 pm 58. Neo-neocon:

After all, if the West supports it, it MUST be ‘bad’.

Neo-neocon:
For me it is as follows: what West and US do is usually good, including pressure on Iran or possible strike on Iran’s nuclear installations, putting a few little rockets in Poland ( however my Russian friends do not like it), etc. I find all those things to be right and good. I usually find myself on the same page with the Right commentators. There are only few exceptions: I did not think that democracy project in Iraq is a practical idea , just as some other democracy projects abroad.

But, this situations with US ardent support for Georgian membership in NATO (while Georgian president is a clear psycho and a sociopath), support for Georgian AGRESSION against South Ossetia is the first time when I find conservative commentators just as repugnant. Even if it was not genocide, it was still aggression. So whatever Russia did in responce, it is still idiotic and moronic to defend Saakashvilli either, which is what many of you seems like to do. I feel deep contempt for some of the comments here, just the same contempt I feel for the left press.

In our time we had done a lot to eliminate a threat of nuclear confrontation of Soviet Union and US. This generation of mentally retarded politicians is undermining our achievements, and you guys do not dig it. Do you want to live under threat of nuclear attack, to learn how to use a gas mask and learn how to run to a nuclear shelter or pay for construction of one connected to your basement? You can get back all those things very soon, just as we had them in 70th , if you continue having a president who is a complete moron.

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:14 pm 59. fred:

monkeyfan,

To C-fudd, everything’s the Joooooos fault.

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:30 pm 60. Valerie:

What Russia did today:

16:00 Russian military denies Turkish and Ukranian airplanes permission to enter Georgian airspace in order to take part in putting down the fires in the Borjomi district forests. The fires started as a result of dropping of fire setting engines in the area by Russian aviation

14:40 Numerous fires have been noticed in the town of Kaspi and surrounding villages after Russian aviation dropped fire setting engines in the area.

14:40 Russian paramilitaries (so called Cossacks) have entered the town of Kharagauli 50 Km from Kutaisi.

14:30 Eight units of Russian armored troops have started movement from Khashuri district towards the town of Sachkhere.

13:20 Russian troops have started moving from Igoeti, Kaspi district towards Gori.

13:00 Two Russian trucks with soldiers have moved through the Rikoti tunnel to the village Khevi, Kharagauli district.

12:30 The traffic on Khashuri-Borjomi highway has been stopped by the Georgian authorities due to security concerns as a result of the Russian troops movements.

12:30 Grakali Railroad Bridge in Kaspi district has been blown up by Russian troops.

12:30 Russian troops fired from an artillery gun in Uplistsikhe. The shell exploded in the river.

10:45 Three Russian tanks are stationed in Kaspi and two in Igoeti.

10:30 Russian aviation has dropped fire setting engines near the village of Khandaki, Kaspi district. The forest near the village is burning.

10:30 Russian aviation has dropped unidentified devices to the vine factory in village Okami, Kaspi district.

10:15 Ten tanks from Igoeti headed towards Khashuri and seven to Znauri.

10:15 The Russians, who left the port of Poti yesterday, have returned with four armored personnel carrier, one crane, 10 army trucks (8 Ural, 2 Kamaz) and one army vehicle.

08:47 – The battalion has stopped in the village Karaleti. The group is composed of lots of armored personnel carriers, tanks, army trucks and engineer unit. The staff meeting is taking place. The general joined later arriving by helicopter.

08:26 – General Alarm was declared in 71st Tank Battalion of the Russian army, stationed in Tskhinvali. The Battalion is now heading towards Gori. As of now, they are in the village of Karaleti.

00:30 The cases of looting and abuse of local civilians committed by separatists in Russian occupied villages of Abisi, Koda, Ptsa – Kareli district have been reported.
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 10:41 PM

********************

We’ll sift it out. Russia’s credibility is affected by its long history.

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:44 pm 61. Chuck Pelto:

TO: cedarford
RE:

“No Fred, what most Americans are now objecting to is brainless neocon sympathizers waving their sabers in their armchairs and calling for endless wars against what they consider America’s endless enemies.” — cedarford

Silly bear….

….America has recognized the truth about Russia since LONG before WWII.

Whether Czarist, Communist or Putinist, the Russian bear has not changed its modus operandi. [Note: I suspect it's a genetic issue.] And in the end, we recognize what will become of it.

The only REAL question is who will have the courage to stand up to it.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. I’m pretty good at killing bears…..

Aug 16, 2008 - 6:49 pm 62. monkeyfan:

Thanks Fred, he’s a known quantity.
;^)

I was hoping to draw him into exposing his accustomed Joooo hatred…You know give him the rope and all that.

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:16 pm 63. Neo-neocon:

>The only REAL question is who will have the courage >to stand up to it.

Hmmm. One who can’t isolate even North Korea or stand up against Iran, should not think about standing up to the “bears”….

>Chuck(le)
>P.S. I’m pretty good at killing bears…..

And how good you are at putting on a gas mask and running to a nuclear shelter? (I learned to do this well when I was 6)

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:21 pm 64. Tom W.:

Where’s the evidence that Russian weapons are any good?

In this war, they fired 50 (fifty) air-to-ground missiles at the main Georgian pipeline and missed with all of them.

IN 2007 the Israelis utterly neutralized the state-of-the-art Russian air-defense system of Syria.

Saddam had state-of-the-art Russian air-defense elements, too, manned by Russian technicians, and we blew them all up without losing a single ship.

Our Bradley fighting vehicles used their 25mm Bushmaster cannons to destroy Iraqi T-72 main battle tanks supplied by Russia. The relatively small round from the Bradleys penetrated the armor of the tanks like a knife going through butter.

Hezbollah fired over 700 Kornet antitank missiles at the Israelis in 2006 and manged to destroy just 2 (two) Merkava tanks.

As far as I can tell, the only people who think Russian hardware is any good are Third World dictators and western leftists.

Aug 16, 2008 - 7:58 pm 65. Roger Godby:

Judging from the excerpts provided, Ms. Ivanova like the normal well-programmed graduate of the average North American liberal arts program. I wonder if her cubicle has one of those cute little stuffed bears with the Hammer and Sickle(tm) red-Tshirt–adorable!

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:16 pm 66. monkeyfan:

Neo-neocon:
I don’t think you realize that most of us here know the differences between the corruption of the Georgian SSR (Soviet Socialist Republic) and post-Shevardnadze [Rose Revolution] Georgia.

Most of us can also discern the distinction between your “wild capitalism” and the fascist oligarchs of Russia proper.

This isn’t a CNN or MSNBC forum. We’re not nearly so credulous of all the pravda and izvestia you’re peddling.

We know about all we need to know about Abkhazian ethnic cleansing of a couple hundred thousand Georgians in the early ’90’s and that Vlad’s passport-dumping gambit in South Ossetia too. Besides that pesky documented pre-blitzkrieg shelling, examples of Russians and their Abkhaz/Ossetia vassals in the act of bombing, looting, and shooting [at] civilians and journos are all over the net for jeebus’ sake. The bear is not s_____g in the secrecy of the woods anymore.

Nice try at the placatory switcheroo though. We more “human” capitalists weren’t “striked” nearly as bad by the “cruel savages”.

Do keep going.
Now where were we?
Ahhhh…It’s all “Busch’s” fault.

So are you suggesting that we should just roll over whenever Ivan rattles his nuclear sabers and decides he wants to put the boot to our friend?

I think not.

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:23 pm 67. Neo-neocon:

Chuck>Whether Czarist, Communist or Putinist, the Russian bear has not changed its modus operandi. [Note: I suspect it’s a genetic issue.] And in the end, we recognize what will become of it.

Neo-neocon:
Chuck, sounds like you are just a redneck racist. Obviously, I am not going to complain about it to ACLU, but I rather thank you for your comments, because now I have got an answer for my puzzle as of why Left liberals dominate US universities. It seems that all these Left liberal movements are just a reaction on American rednecks “ideas”

No regards

Aug 16, 2008 - 8:30 pm 68. monkeyfan:

Pot…Meet kettle.

Aug 16, 2008 - 9:33 pm 69. Neo-neocon:

Monkeyfan> Pot…Meet kettle.

Hmm,I would never suggest that any American attitudes are genetically inbuilt. I do not think that there is any problem with American culture or American system either. I think that US has the best constitution a country can possibly have and best possible economic system in the world. Yes, it is worth to die for. But I would not sent any American soldier to die for freedom of those who crave for Islamic shariya law (like Iraq and Afghanistan) or to die for those who want to use Americans for their stupid regional ambitions (like Georgia). The life of Americans is precious, there are not so many of them and the rate of reproduction (2.2) is only sufficient to maintain the current level of population.

Rom W>Where’s the evidence that Russian weapons are any good?

Lately they did not have much stimulus to work on their weapon, but now they will, unfortunately. Secondly, there is difference between what they sell and what they have themselves and how they use it.

Monkeyfan>I don’t think you realize that most of us here know the differences between the corruption of the Georgian SSR (Soviet Socialist Republic) and post-Shevardnadze [Rose Revolution] Georgia.

And what is that difference? Is that suppressing demonstrations by tear gas? What else? A buddy of Saakashvilli came to PBS to defend him and he said as aq side comment that Saakashvilli copied much from Putin to rebuilt Georguia. And when you see him speaking he is much more like a fascist comparing to Putin.

OK, let us make it a rational debate. I have said that Saakashvilli sucks. Say yes or no. Are you going to defend his personal qualities only because he says that he is friend of US?

You talk about South Ossetia atrocities, but what do you really know about the history of this war and what do you know why there are two Ossetia (North and South)? Stalin divided them artificially and give it to Russia and Georgia which were republics. Ossetia has the same reason to dislike Georgian rule as Baltic countries had reason to dislike Russian rule. Russia let those republics go, Georgia cares about its dominion over Ossetia. So, who is a fascist? Or will your argue against this account of Russian history?

Monkeyfan> Nice try at the placatory switcheroo though. We more “human” capitalists weren’t “striked” nearly as bad by the “cruel savages”.

Hmm. I was just commenting on the question as of why and where Communism strikes and where it does not. I did not argue in defense or against of anything. All what I tried is to make you to think. If it was a wrong try, then this is might be too abstract subject for you. I regreat.

Monkeyfan> So are you suggesting that we should just roll over whenever Ivan rattles his nuclear sabers and decides he wants to put the boot to our friend?

Much of what I was trying to suggest have been superseded by far more comprehensive comments in:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=28053

The point is that when you start rattling your saber, you can not do it for too long and US now have been doing it long enough. Now, when US have much more discernable enemies like Iran, (who is going to lunch first satellite by next week) it would be nice for US to have a bit more fire power and the leverage with allies. But unfortunately, it was all wasted to remove non existing nukes from Iraq. Now, you also spy Russia as an enemy, even though Russia does not want to destroy US as some other really want to do. Why to waste time on quarrels with Russia at the time when there are far more real enemies? Learn from Hitle failures during WW2 .

Please try to understand me correctly. I do not argue against cold war with Russia. If you want it, you will get it eventually. I think cold war was a cool time when both countries had many incentives to do research and to invent new weapons and it was good for both countries. Now it all stalled. At the moment I am just suggesting that it may not be the right time: What do you know about Islam? Have you ever read Quran and literature on Jihad? Do you pay any attention to what Iran does?

Aug 16, 2008 - 11:43 pm 70. Tom W.:

Lately they did not have much stimulus to work on their weapon, but now they will, unfortunately. Secondly, there is difference between what they sell and what they have themselves and how they use it.

When your entire army is drunk, it doesn’t matter what kinds of high-tech weapons they have. And the idea that the Russians sell their crap and keep the good stuff for themselves is ludicrous. All their stuff is crap. It’s been proven over and over and over.

The Chechens destroyed two entire Russian armored brigades in Grozny in 1995, using only rocket-propelled grenades. The Russian KIA rate in the two Chechen wars was ten times that of the U.S. in Iraq, even when the Russians were fighting with no rules of engagement whatsoever other than “Kill everybody.”

If the Russians ever decide to fight the U.S. military, it’s going to be just pitiful.

Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of troglodytes, though.

Aug 17, 2008 - 12:56 am 71. poul:

> So are you suggesting that we should just roll over whenever Ivan rattles his nuclear sabers and decides he wants to put the boot to our friend?

we should have not chosen the fascist regime as our friend to begin with, you dolt.

Aug 17, 2008 - 1:04 am 72. poul:

> IN 2007 the Israelis utterly neutralized the state-of-the-art Russian air-defense system of Syria.

that’s israelis. they also won training dog fights with american pilots at the rate of something like 80:6. we don’t have pilots like that, not even close, so the point is moot.

> Our Bradley fighting vehicles used their 25mm Bushmaster cannons to destroy Iraqi T-72

do you even know what “72″ means? these tanks are 30 years old. t-80 and t-90 are much more serious contenders.

> Hezbollah fired over 700 Kornet antitank missiles at the Israelis in 2006 and manged to destroy just 2 (two) Merkava tanks.

hezbollah used them against israeli troopers more than against tanks.

> As far as I can tell, the only people who think Russian hardware is any good are Third World dictators and western leftists.

all our spec ops still pick ak-47 whenever they can. that’s some piece of russian hardware for ya.

the biggest mistake in war is to underestimate your opponent.

Aug 17, 2008 - 1:21 am 73. John Samford:

“Jeff, trust your Presidents. Do not mess up with Russians. They have good air defense to shoot down your A-10s and F-16. Even F-22s. And they have S-27 ICBM which are able to penetrate any ABM shield.”

BULLSH1T! Soviet ADS are almost useless. Tell me a fable about all the Israeli F-16’s that were shot down in the strike on the Syrian reactor a few months ago. Go Ahead. The F-15 has a combat kill ration of OVER 100 to 0 ( that’s right, no F-15 has EVER been shot down by a Soviet built fighter)
The S-27 is a S-25 with a new paint job. It is still unrelaible and not very accurate. the WBW will fry them and the Pac-3 will bust them. Meanwhile, you Russians have NOTHING that will stop an American ICBM, not to mention a B-2, which Russian radar can’t even find.
Did you get a new crack pipe for your birthday?

“As of 2000, the F-15 in all air forces has a combined kill record of 104 kills to zero losses in air combat (a Japanese F-15J shot down another F-15J in 1995 due to an AIM-9 Sidewinder safety malfunction during air-to-air combat training with real weapons).

The majority of these kills were made by Israeli Air Force pilots during the 1982 Lebanon War. Dozens of Syrian-piloted Russian MiG-21s (the reported figure varies from 80-92) and several MiG-25s were shot down. A substantial fraction of these were shot down with F-15s. Royal Saudi Air Force pilots shot down two F-4 Phantoms flown by the Iranian Air Force in a border skirmish in 1984, and two Iraqi Mirages F1 during the Gulf War. The balance of the aircraft kills were by the USAF in the Gulf War, mostly by missile fire. Most of the kills were reportedly of aircraft fleeing, rather than actively trying to engage US planes. The F-15 was heavily used in air-to-ground attacks as well as for air superiority.

The F-15E sustained two losses to ground fire in the Gulf War in 1991. One F-15E was lost in the 2003, Invasion of Iraq, probably due to ground fire.”

From here;
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircraft_McDonnell_Douglas_F-15_Eagle-Airline_USA_-_Air_Force_Aviation_Video-9253.html

“The power of an air force is terrific when there is nothing to oppose it.”
- Winston Churchill

Russia has NOTHING that can oppose the USA in the Air. Nothing. If we had politicians with courage, you would have found that out for real this past week. That’s OK, it took decades for the USAF to build up it’s power and it will still be there when we get a politician with courage. Then we will finish the Bear off once and for all.
Russia will become Moscow and the land within 50 Km’s. Every thing else we will give to some other nation. Sort of like a yard sale.

Aug 17, 2008 - 4:00 am 74. cedarford:

fred:
monkeyfan,

To C-fudd, everything’s the Joooooos fault.

It’s not the Jooos fault you were born stupid, Fred. Thats on your parents.

Aug 17, 2008 - 4:44 am 75. Daily Blogger - Sunday, August 17th, 2008 | Jack’s Newswatch:

[...] Pajamas Media (Kim Zigfeld) | Russia’s Pathetic Defenders [...]

Aug 17, 2008 - 6:17 am 76. Chuck Pelto:

TO: neo-neocon
RE:

“And how good you are at putting on a gas mask and running to a nuclear shelter? (I learned to do this well when I was 6)” — neo-neocon

Then you’re probably trained well enough for doing it today.

As for myself….

…..I think I’m pretty well trained, after 27 years in the infantry. Probably better trained/prepared than you, buckie.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[God is alive....and airborne-ranger qualified. And so am I.]

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:27 am 77. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Tom W.
RE: Let’s Not Forget….

“Our Bradley fighting vehicles used their 25mm Bushmaster cannons to destroy Iraqi T-72 main battle tanks supplied by Russia. The relatively small round from the Bradleys penetrated the armor of the tanks like a knife going through butter.” — Tom W.

….that during GWI, the only four M1 Abrams MBTs that we lost were all tail shots.

And that there were reports of Soviet sabot rounds being used as new hand-holds for crews getting out of our tanks; in other words direct hits on our tanks that were totally ineffective.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Russian combat vehicles aren't for shiite!]

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:30 am 78. fred:

C-fudd, I’m smart enough to know what your schtick is. I’m not saying that you are a Russian ally, but the fact that you take great pains to find more fault with U.S. policy than ugly Russian thuggishness does convey a hint of who you think is the true enemy of humanity. You have been carrying on now, for years, about the hated “neocons” (which, in the Buchanan parlance and also in the parlance of the opposite end of the spectrum, the Far Left, means “filthy Jewish traitor to the Left”)and anyone who supports the Iraq war is a “neocon.” Anyone who defends Israel is a “neocon.” Anyone who dares to criticize the reflexive bandying about of the “Zionist” word is a “neocon”…

But, if I were to magically transform myself into an isolationist I would slink under the umbrella of your good graces.

Sure, my parents sired a stupid boy…

Aug 17, 2008 - 8:40 am 79. Neo-neocon:

Chuck> As for myself….…..I think I’m pretty well trained, after 27 years in the infantry. Probably better trained/prepared than you, buckie.

Neo-neocon: Oh my! And I only got my first couple of guns this summer:S&W 642 CT and Ruger LCP,( not Makarov to your surprise) but I still have not got any time to go to the range and train myself in firing them. Obviously I may not be a match for you on the range or in combat.

But you know what; I am trained in Logic, Math and Computer Science with some exposure to Philosophy and Economics. I have been doing intellectual work related to system analysis for about 27 years. And what are your credentials which would qualify your to talk about policy analysis and strategic planning?

Aug 17, 2008 - 8:56 am 80. Neo-neocon:

John Samford>That’s OK, it took decades for the USAF to build up it’s power and it will still be there when we get a politician with courage. Then we will finish the Bear off once and for all.Russia will become Moscow and the land within 50 Km’s.

OMG! That is what I mean when I said that Russians and even more so Europeans started perceiving Americans as morally inferior thugs living by the rule of fist. We can conquer a country, so let us do it and make regime change. And now, both Georgian and Russian politicians adopted George Busch approach to politics and war. And you are the last ones who have any moral leverage to talk about Russian agressive nature. Just look at yourselves.

On technical note: yours and others comments about Russian tanks and aircrafts and tactical ADS may not be relevant to the situation of real war of US with mainland Russia. In such a situation strategic missiles with nuke will be used against US mainland.

And there are still too many of them, sufficient to penetrate ADS and completely destroy this country and kill all your relatives and friends and all what you hold dear.. But every politicians seems understand this and they still do not substtitu courage for intelligence.

Have you ever considered a question as of why God sometimes punishes US by having it to elect a Democrat president? It happens when Republicans lose their minds. Now, we have a redneck president which had the same brilliant idea in his head as you when he took the office. After loses in Iraq and international isolation of his administration he may changed his mind, but you still have not.

So enjoy Barak Obama’s presidency. You are the one who deserved it well. The others will suffer on your account.

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:26 am 81. Chuck Pelto:

TO: neo-neocon
RE: So….

“Obviously I may not be a match for you on the range or in combat.” — neo-neocon

More than likely.

“But you know what; I am trained in Logic, Math and Computer Science with some exposure to Philosophy and Economics.” — neo-neocon

Interesting. I write computer programs these days. My undergrad work was pre-med microbio. [Note: Actually, it was a double-major. Microbio majors took more chemistry than Chem majors did.] My masters is in computer systems management. I’m a graduate of the US Army Command and General Staff College and US Army Logistics Management College. I’ve had articles on logistics published in several professional journals. I developed a spreadsheet in ‘83 to plan railcar requirements for transporting a heavy brigade; which was later updated to assist in Operation DESERT SHEILD. I spent 10 years assisting State Area Commands, i.e., the State Adjutants General and their staffs, in 14 states prepare for national emergencies and natural disasters.

I’m currently a commissioner on two City and two County boards.

….exactly WHAT is your point here? That I’m a knuckle-dragger?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Show me your Mensa membership ID number, buckie….and I’ll show you mine. Or just click on my name to verify that.

P.P.S. First you were all up there about combat preparedness. Then, failing that, you want to talk about mental capabilities.

What will you attempt next? Ad homs?

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:32 am 82. Marco:

America hides behind NATO and the expression “West” . America in turn is controlled mainly by a few Jews in the financial institutions, and in the media especially television. There is nothing wrong with that but it does happen that their wishes could be different from that of the government or the country as a whole.

(Many people believe that the power of television is greater than military might. You can for example urge the populace to prompt the government to “send in the Marines” or alternatively to demand to “bring back our boys” depending on the videos you show. Another example is Obama. Everyone knows that Obama is a TV/media creation)

Much of America’s wealth was generated by cheap energy and the use of the American dollar as a medium of exchange especially in the oil exchanges. This basically means selling dollars for the value of dollars at virtually no cost or rather the small cost of printing them. A balanced budget is an extremely rare thing in the United States. Hence the United States is always on the look-out for countries endowed with oil and gas resources or who want to remove the settlement in dollars from the oil exchanges.

The Americans are interested in Georgia because it can count on an American-educated Georgian with a German wife to help them in their aims. Their aims include to use a base to have a presence in the area. (It wants the Russians to go away from the area and they instead to go in.) It was instrumental in building an oil-pipeline from Azerbaijan to Turkey, taking the most tortuous route precisely because the Americans wanted the route to be controlled by their own poodles. Azerbaijan is a Moslem country controlled by a dictator who “inherited” the country from his father. Has anyone heard of any criticism of this? Anything on CNN or whatever or any politician or presidential candidates?

American politics for the last twenty years hs been dominated by the neo-cons in both parties. The neo-cons are mostly Jewish-Americans who believed or still believe that America is the only superpower and can in fact do what it wants. One of the things it wants is to have pliant poodles everwhere. In the former Soviet Union it did it through colour-revolutions. That is with clever use of American marketing techniques at which America reigns supreme, pure bribery of students and others and also funding of the transporting and placement of thousands of people, providing tents etc right in front of parliament. It also established bases all around Russia. In Kosovo they basically set up a country whose government is composed of hardened criminals and was referred to as such by members of the Clinton regime. Yet they bombed Serbian bridges, factories, school busses, schools, TV stations, for weeks and weeks with depleted uranium. More than that they set up a precedent to be replicated everywhere in the future because it suited them at the time but which will come to haunt them. The principle is this : self-determination to determine a country’s boundries. One can expect in the future that the Mexicans in Texas, California, New Mexico etc to link up with Mexico if it suits them. In the meantime one can be sure that the people in Eastern Ukraine comprising just under half the country’s population want to join Russia and 70% of all ukrainians do not want NATO.

As regards Georgia no amount of repetition of falsehoods will change these facts.
(1) The Russian army has bases in Southern Russia, always had for years and years.
(2) Georgia attacked and bombed Takhtivali and Southern Odessa, killing up to 2,000 people and destroying the whole town before the Russians moved in and crushed the Georgian army
(3) The Georgian army had been trained and armed by the US for at least 6 years and have spent hundreds of millions of dollars. They had spanking new bases , all of which were dismantled by the Russians.
(4) The Russians did not bomb factories, TV stations, foreign embassies or use depleted uranium which the Americans did in Kosovo or hospitals, churches and cemetries which the Georgians did in Osettia
(5)There was deliberate falsehood on American TV stations. Saakashvili appeared virtually every hour lying most blatantly and all American stations . They even displayed a video taken from http://www.russiatoday.ru showing the destruction of Southern Osettia by Georgians as being the destruction of Gori by Russians. Amazing.

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:16 am 83. Robert:

The Russians were going to do this same thing somewhere as tit-for-tat over Kosovo. The nutcase in Georgia just managed to win the prize and become the preferred target by letting his alligator mouth overload his rat’s patoot. Why the NATO crowd and especially the US thought that they could make up a new country out of nothing right in the middle of Russian long time pals and not have the same thing done to them in return is what I wonder about. Russia wants to be taken at least as seriously as the EU and if the EU, through NATO, flexes its’ muscle and makes up a new country now and then, Russia will show it has the ability to do the same.
Russia is obviously more brutal in it’s’ implementation but no more “evil” than NATO was over Kosovo. I’m not “apologizing” for Russia a bit, just stating what I see as the facts. We were party to the same damn thing and I don’t see the difference. That’s my humble opinion and all the blather over whether this is another cold war or not is a good many years too late. That should have been a consideration when people were all for shoving Kosovo down Russia’s throat. I’m sure that looked like the start of another cold war from their side of things.

Regards

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:26 am 84. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Marco [the Russian Schill]
RE: Forgetting Something?

[1] The actions of the Russians in Georgia have not been fully documented…yet.
[2] We do know that Russian soldiers are looting Georgian banks. Too bad none of them look like Clint Eastwood or Telly Savalas, he?

We’ll find out more about what the Russians did in due time.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:28 am 85. monkeyfan:

Chuck you rock!
I’m grateful we have so many people of your caliber serving to defend this country. Thank you.

————-

I asked cedarford: “So are you suggesting that we should just roll over whenever Ivan rattles his nuclear sabers and decides he wants to put the boot to our friend?”

‘Poul’ responded: “we should have not chosen the fascist regime as our friend to begin with, you dolt.”

To my mind it seems that you (poul)are claiming that the Georgians are fascists and failed to mentioning a thing about the corporatist oligarch run Russia who’s military is still putting the boot to the Georgian population. Russia is loudly rattling their rusty nuclear sabers at Poland and the rest of their former vassal states too I might add…

Anyway, please explain how it is that you’ve come to the conclusion that the Georgians are fascists that shouldn’t be befriended much less defended. Otherwise I can only come to the conclusion that the FUDD is strong with you.

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:48 am 86. Woodrow:

A plague on all your houses!

Let’s stipulate that Russia is NOT NICE.

But the United States is in a war for survival with Islam (as you right wingers have been saying for seven years).

The LAST thing we need to do is antagonize the world’s second greatest nuclear power.

So if Vladimir Putin says “Jump.” the United States should say “How high?”

If Vladimir Putin says “I want half of Georgia [or Ukraine or whatever]” the United States should say “with sugar on top.”

He is a bad guy. But the United States was allied with plenty of much worse guys during World War II and the Cold War. And the war with Islam is more directly tied to America’s national survival than either one.

Aug 17, 2008 - 11:23 am 87. monkeyfan:

Robert: “Why the NATO crowd and especially the US thought that they could make up a new country out of nothing right in the middle of Russian long time pals and not have the same thing done to them in return is what I wonder about.”

Middle of Russia? If by “middle of” you mean periphery well…You might want to look at a map and google Georgia for a bit of the history of this made up “new country”. Even Wikipedia might clear things up for you.

I kinda suspect that the whole US-Georgia “pals” thing is rather more of a two-way street compared to the previous annexed Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic’s arrangement with the Sovi…Russians was.

Aug 17, 2008 - 11:29 am 88. Neo-neocon:

Chuck>P.P.S. First you were all up there about combat preparedness. Then, failing that, you want to talk about mental capabilities.

No, the main topic of my posts was crisis of moral values in US foreign policies. I did not have any posts about combat preparedness. If you want my opinion on this subject here it is:

All US nuclear arsenal and tanks and airplanes will be of no use, if politicians and people lose their moral compass. Remeber: “Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.” (Psalm 127.1)

Chuck> ….exactly WHAT is your point here? That I’m a knuckle-dragger?

Oh no way, I would certainly not call you or anyone else a “knuckle dragger.” I was just curious about the guy whom I called redneck racist in my previous post (yesterday, I hope you have noticed). Because it is first time in my life I called somebody “a racist.”

To the point: However impressive your credentials in logistics, they may not be that useful on the scale we are talking about. There is much more to wars than logistics, there is economics and foreign relations. But one of most important things is the set of moral values you stand for and your moral leverage over the enemies. My point is that when you do not have moral leverage, you will for sure lose, first on diplomatic front, than in the battle.

I can say it in the language of religion which you probably will understand: God punishes those who are ungodly. In 1991 Russia was punished for hear moral wickedness by God only without use of any US force. You may not fear of any Russian or Iranian weapons, but only for as long as God protects you. Fear of becoming a transgressor, in which case you may lose that protections and after that all your weapon will be as useless as Russian nuclear arsenal was in 1991. Pray to God that the hand that had touched Russia in 1991 may never touch US. And only your own moral behavior can save you from that hand. There is no any other defence.

Hope this is not too heavy for a Computer systems manager?

Aug 17, 2008 - 11:35 am 89. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Marco
RE: Additional Thoughts

I seem to remember Russian involvement in THEIR ‘break-away’ province of Chechnya. Something about how they rolled in there rombing and stomping and got their a– handed to them. Then came in again and were bloody murderous.

And all that time they were claiming it was an ‘internal’ affair not subject to criticism from the outside….let alone military intervention.

Explain THAT one away, you schilly person you….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Hypocrisy is the tribute that vice pays to virtue.]

Aug 17, 2008 - 11:37 am 90. Chuck Pelto:

TO: neo-neocon
RE: Your ‘Main Point’

Chuck>P.P.S. First you were all up there about combat preparedness. Then, failing that, you want to talk about mental capabilities.

No, the main topic of my posts was crisis of moral values in US foreign policies. I did not have any posts about combat preparedness. — neo-neocon

No posts about ‘combat preparedness’? Are you suffering from short-term memory loss? Or something worse?

And how good you are at putting on a gas mask and running to a nuclear shelter? (I learned to do this well when I was 6) — neo-neocon @ Aug 16, 2008 – 7:21 pm

If putting on a gas mask and ducking a nuke isn’t ‘combat preparedness’, you’ve got a SERIOUS problem with grasp of the English language.

As for the ‘crisis of moral values in US foreign policy….

….that’s more a factor in the Clinton administration than THIS one.

RE: US Weapons of ‘No Use’?

All US nuclear arsenal and tanks and airplanes will be of no use, if politicians and people lose their moral compass. Remeber: “Except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.” (Psalm 127.1)– neo-neocon

Again, the Clinton administration manifested that problem more egregiously than does this one. Look at the bombing of the Sudan and Afghanistan.

[Note: Citing Psalms? You REALLY should visit that web-site that clicking on my name will take you to.]

RE: Ad Homs, Early

Chuck> ….exactly WHAT is your point here? That I’m a knuckle-dragger?

Oh no way, I would certainly not call you or anyone else a “knuckle dragger.” I was just curious about the guy whom I called redneck racist in my previous post (yesterday, I hope you have noticed). Because it is first time in my life I called somebody “a racist.”– neo-neocon

I’d forgotten that one. Must be my Christian ethic at work/play.

To the point: However impressive your credentials in logistics, they may not be that useful on the scale we are talking about. There is much more to wars than logistics, there is economics and foreign relations. But one of most important things is the set of moral values you stand for and your moral leverage over the enemies. My point is that when you do not have moral leverage, you will for sure lose, first on diplomatic front, than in the battle.– neo-neocon

My creds are considerably more than merely logistics. That’s my secondary. My primary is infantry. But your failure to grasp the importance of the former with respect to being effective on the modern battlefield as the latter speaks volumes.

Again with the failure to ‘appreciate’ the Clinton administration and how its actions, especially those in Kosovo, brought US to this point. You don’t even know what happened in September of 1999 that set the Russians and the Chinese on a path for war with US.

And you suggest I can’t ‘grasp’ foreign policy vis-a-vis where we are today? How VERY ‘odd’.

I can say it in the language of religion which you probably will understand: God punishes those who are ungodly. In 1991 Russia was punished for hear moral wickedness by God only without use of any US force. You may not fear of any Russian or Iranian weapons, but only for as long as God protects you. Fear of becoming a transgressor, in which case you may lose that protections and after that all your weapon will be as useless as Russian nuclear arsenal was in 1991. Pray to God that the hand that had touched Russia in 1991 may never touch US. And only your own moral behavior can save you from that hand. There is no any other defence.– neo-neocon

You don’t know me very well….do you…..

Hope this is not too heavy for a Computer systems manager?– neo-neocon

You don’t know me…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Know thy enemy and thyself and thou shalt never be defeated. -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War; mandatory reading at Benning School for Boys]

Aug 17, 2008 - 12:04 pm 91. monkeyfan:

Neo-neocon said: “Hope this is not too heavy for a Computer systems manager?”

Highly unlikely…

NNC, anyone who can understand what they read can see the condescension oozing right through the filter of your specious platitudes. Given the apparent ease with which you twist in opposing winds, your claim that this here thread is the first time you’ve hurled the “racist” much less the “redneck racist” epitaph at someone who is trouncing your arguments is highly suspect as to border on the ludicrous.

You really are a piece of work.

I still want to know what “moral compass” says we shouldn’t support and defend Georgia in any way we can when they are being stomped by the same damn familiar bear that’s threatening destruction for several more of our country’s friends as we speak.

Did Russia not serve as the ‘moral’ and material epicenter of nearly a century of terror, death, and gulags? Are the KGB/FSB fetishist leaders of Russia not being demonstrably true to long-familiar form in their treatment of Georgia?

I know you are terrified of the gas mask memories of your toddler years, but it was hard-ass redneck cowboy America that led the moral and physical fight against the purveyors of that tyranny by defending the victims of that tyranny.

Lamenting America’s supposedly broken moral compass and quoting scripture holds no leverage whatsoever against those who care nothing for moral compasses, or moral leverage, or scripture that doesn’t serve to weaken those they oppose.

Guess who has the truest and strongest moral compass that nearly all the former vassal states of the Russian USSR are flocking to? Guess whose moral compass, blood, and treasure shepherded the continent of world wars through their darkest years and stands alongside them to defend against the wolves and bears or the world even today?

Hint: This country doesn’t assassinate perceived rivals in Britain with polonium corruption, and doesn’t shut down opposition media or murder their journalists either. This country doesn’t raze cities to the ground in breakaway Asian Republics or engage in ethnic cleansing, ethnic dilution, or mass passport distribution schemes either.

I suspect that you already know all this so you might want to take a look see toward your own “moral leverage”.

Aug 17, 2008 - 1:15 pm 92. Neo-neocon:

Chuck>No posts about ‘combat preparedness’? Are you suffering from short-term memory loss? Or something worse? citing: “And how good you are at putting on a gas mask and running to a nuclear shelter? (I learned to do this well when I was 6)”
Chuck, as you know, 6 years old do not go for combat. My post was obviously not about combat preparedness but about civilian population living under constant threat of death and destruction. This was the case when I was 6. So, it is not about my serious problems with memory loss or English, but about your problem with ….OK I would not respond to your light biting with another biting .

I agree with you about Clintons power to corrupt morality. I actually even mentioned in my previous posts his “pants-down presidency”. I also agree on your point about the obvious role of Kosovo in present conflict about which many people on this forum wrote. If I did not write about something explicitly, this does not mean I do not appreciate the role of those things. Conversely, if I wrote about something, it does not mean that I assume that you necessarily do not know that or would argue with that. If you have Christian morality, please apply your forgiveness to Russia just as well, especially in the situation when they did not attack first, and do not make any threats to US. They have been punished well enough, first in 1917 for the sins of their ruling elite, than in 1991 for wickedness and corruption. They had suffered and they payed.

I clicked on your name and visited your site. About myself: I do not have Mensa membership ID number. I blog sporadically when there are points to argue. I post emails in my Institute list which is saturated by US hating left liberals and I argue with them (I am surprised that I still have my job). You may find my posts in debates with Muslim reviewers of Robert Spencer’s book “The truth about Muhammad”

http://www.amazon.com/review/product/1596980281/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

I highly recommend the book. I read Robert Spencer’s blog http://www.jihadwatch.org/ every day and would recommend it to anyone who loves US and believes in Western moral values. I think he is one of a few who deserve to be qualified as spiritual and intellectual defender of the Western moral values and our way of life.

Best Regards.

Aug 17, 2008 - 1:40 pm 93. poul:

monkeyfan:

“I still want to know what “moral compass” says we shouldn’t support and defend Georgia in any way we can when they are being stomped by the same damn familiar bear that’s threatening destruction for several more of our country’s friends as we speak.”

this one should be obvious by now – georgian government is every bit as fascist as russian, and attempted ethnic cleaning (if not genocide) of two peoples – ossetins and abhkazians.

in other words, we should choose our friends more wisely. georgia and kosovo are our clients from clinton times, both genocidal fascist regimes, both constant embarrassment, and both negate any moral superiority claim we may aspire to as long as we keep propping them up. how can anyone who calls themselves “conservative” defend this travesty is beyond any comprehension.

Aug 17, 2008 - 3:32 pm 94. poul:

monkeyfan,

>‘Poul’ responded: “we should have not chosen the fascist regime as
> our friend to begin with, you dolt.”
>To my mind it seems that you (poul)are claiming that the Georgians
>are fascists

rather, georgian government is fascist.

> and failed to mentioning a thing about the corporatist oligarch
> run Russia

that goes without saying, but if you insist – sure, rissian government is fascist.

> Anyway, please explain how it is that you’ve come to the conclusion
> that the Georgians are fascists that shouldn’t be befriended much
> less defended.

1. attempt of ethnic cleansing of ossetins and abkhazians
2. http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/conflicts/caucasus/georgia_after_revolution
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_presidential_election,_2008
etc.

Aug 17, 2008 - 3:50 pm 95. Steynian 226 « Free Mark Steyn!:

[...] MORONIC MANIACS: “Those trying to justify Russia’s actions come off looking like morons or maniacs — [...]

Aug 17, 2008 - 4:37 pm 96. Valerie:

The US former ambassador to the UN, John Bolten, has visited Georgia, and has stated that the so-called cleansing of the Ossetians and Abkhazians was done by Russian surrogates, not Georgians, and that the Georgian attempts at intervention were then used as a pretext for invasion. The Georgians separately charge that Russian passports were issued to an awful lot of Georgian citizens without their consent or their knowledge.

Aug 17, 2008 - 4:59 pm 97. monkeyfan:

Poul please point us toward real examples of Georgian “ethnic cleansing (if not genocide)”. You know, ones that do not come from mother Russia.

Hell! I’ll even accept a single UN resolution or sternly worded letter denouncing Georgia for “ethnic cleansing (if not genocide)”.

Unfortunately, I’ll need to see your other (etc.) links because your wiki link entirely disproves your theory that Georgia is a fascist country involved in any sort of cleansing, and your Soros-funded Open Democracy link (datelined: November, 14, 2007) mentions the word “ethnic” only once, in the context of the transition from “The former government of Eduard Shevardnadze”, and regional tension in “The post-Soviet space, of which Georgia is just one component,” and how the region “remains prone to unexpected, zig-zag developments rooted in its complex inheritance: in particular, the region’s imperial legacy of institutional weakness, a still-fragile democratic transition, ethnic nationalism and a generally underdeveloped political-party culture.”

That Soros link does not imply or evidence any cleansing (ethnic and otherwise), or genocide. Furthermore, the only inkling of something resembling fascism seems to stem from the Shevardnadze/opposition camp and their election fraud; not from Georgia’s legitimately elected leader Mikheil Saakashvili’s camp. Who do you suppose Vlad and his Russian Oligarch’s are supporting?

It is apparent that your intellectual rigor leaves much to be desired, but your susceptibility to the motherland’s disinformatzia remains top notch.

Anyway, you know it doesn’t take much google-fu to find what other circles you run in Mr. Costinsky: A Russian educated artist from Lvov (in the former USSR) on the border with Poland but now swimming in the Seattle art scene with a tarot card obsessed artist girlfriend.

And yes Moby, I’m an honest to goodness Conservative so I’m really digging your photographic muse: Hot naked girls with handguns, cigarettes, and booze.

Keep up the good snaps.

Aug 17, 2008 - 5:46 pm 98. poul:

i dont hide my identity, monkeyfun, unlike you. your reading comprehension probably suffered from blood surge to your other organs while looking at my photos, because i didn’t say my link prove genocide, my links prove fascist, undemocratic nature of the current georgian regime.

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:03 pm 99. poul:

p.s. feel free to order the prints, and tip the waitress

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:07 pm 100. tedders:

Marco says:

” America in turn is controlled mainly by a few Jews in the financial institutions, and in the media especially television.”

What edition of the “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” do you use for research Marco? You’re a complete fool buddy!!

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:14 pm 101. harry:

If life is a poker game then America’s next move is:
I see your Georgia and raise you an Iran. Meaning, the US may attack Iran without fear of a Russian retaliation. Russia raised the stakes with its belligerent incursion into Georgia, a Western backed Democracy. To hell with you Russia. You wanna play? Let’s play. It’s a good play. Screw Iran real good. Russia needs to be smacked too. Direct confrontation with Russia has been avoided for decades, this is a good answer without direct agression. Russia cannot do a thing directly against us. Russia is weak not strong when it comes to GNP. Europe needs to wake up. Peace is a mirage. Only the strong survive. Your best recipe for peace is a strong military deterrent, not infinite diplomacy.

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:35 pm 102. harry:

Why the hell does the American press broadcast Gorby’s Russian propaganda? Are they Pravda???
The commie CNN bastards need to have their license revoked!!! What a total disgrace.

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:39 pm 103. poul:

harry,

> If life is a poker game then America’s next move is:
> I see your Georgia and raise you an Iran. Meaning, the US may attack Iran without fear of a Russian retaliation.

how do you know that was not the deal between putin and bush to begin with? as a matter of fact i think it is. win-win.

Aug 17, 2008 - 7:45 pm 104. monkeyfan:

You remain a posterboy for the title and meat of this article comrade poul as your links really don’t “prove fascist, undemocratic nature” of President Saakashvili’s twice-elected government by any stretch of the imagination.

In fact Saakashvili has proven to be the antidote to the influence and corruption of Russian style oligarchs that had plagued post-Soviet Georgian politics.

Here’s the second paragraph from the Wiki link:

“Saakashvili was declared a winner with 53.4% of the votes amid the accusation of electoral fraud by the Georgian opposition.[4] International observers welcomed the elections as ‘the first genuinely competitive presidential election’ in the history of Georgia, and said, albeit irregularities were observed, the polls generally met the democratic standards.”

Who was it who made those accusations? The losing opposition maybe?

I hope for your sake that this isn’t an example of you trying…Because depending on people not bothering to read links that you’ve provided to verify the factual accuracy of your assertions is not generally a good method of proving said assertions.

BTW: Winning sales tactic ya got there…

Aug 17, 2008 - 8:17 pm 105. monkeyfan:

What is this?

Tour of Tskhinvali undercuts Russian version of fighting
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/48860.html

…It ain’t an article in ‘Russia Today’.

Aug 17, 2008 - 8:30 pm 106. fred:

Yep, who needs tools like “poul” when we have CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, and CBS? Or the various other Fifth Columnists who have done an outstanding job of doing the Gramscian infiltration of our educational institutions, indoctrinating rather than educating.

People like “poul” are here to try to rally these products of our pathetic educational establishment and get them agitated enough to vote in November for the Manchurian Candidate, whose Kenyan father was a Communist Party member, and whose economic recommendations for Kenya were right out of classic Marxist-Leninist drivel. Barry O, in his 1995 autobiography, extolled his daddy’s values and ideas.

This is what the agents of dizinformatzia are agitating for. The Manchurian Candidate will end the missile defense program and all other cutting edge military battlefield/naval systems.

Aug 17, 2008 - 8:31 pm 107. monkeyfan:

Hopefully the navy will get the new SM-3 KW Block I upgrades onto more Aegis equipped warships before then fred.

With the bear back to invading democracies and threatening nuclear destruction willy-nilly again it’s unlikely history will look too kindly upon an Obama ‘pieces’ dividend.

I’ve got an entirely different dividend in mind.
I’m voting early with my wallet.

Raytheon and Lockheed Martin’s platform suits me fine.

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:06 pm 108. monkeyfan:

Hopefully the navy will get the new SM-3 KW Block I upgrades onto more Aegis equipped warships before then fred.

With the bear back to invading democracies and threatening nuclear destruction willy-nilly again it’s unlikely history will look too kindly upon an Obama ‘pieces’ dividend.

I’ve got an entirely different dividend in mind.
I’m voting early with my stock portfolio.

Raytheon and Lockheed Martin’s platform suits me fine.

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:13 pm 109. poul:

monkeyfan,

> your links really don’t “prove fascist, undemocratic nature” of President Saakashvili’s

“government’s former defence minister Irakli Okruashvili made sensational allegations in a television interview against Georgia’s president, Mikheil Saakashvili (including plotting the murder of the the powerful business tycoon and political aspirant Badri Patarkatsishvili). Okruashvili was arrested two days later and subsequently retracted the main allegation (also on television),”

that is not fascism?

“Tbilisi’s main central thoroughfare of Rustaveli Avenue was the scene of confrontation, in two stages. First, security forces pushed back the dozens of hunger-strikers and a small group of other protestors camped out in front of the parliament building, under the pretext of reopening the avenue; second, after the opposition used its stronghold – Imedi television station – to call the public to come out and support it in its efforts, riot-police used tear-gas and baton-charges to assail the swelling crowds of demonstrators.”

still not?

“Imedi and Kavkasia television companies were closed for alleged anti-governmental activity.”

if this is not fascism, this conversation is pointless

Aug 17, 2008 - 9:16 pm 110. monkeyfan:

Comrade poul Now I know that you are either not very bright, a simple stooge or more likely; a not very bright stooge.

Leties just love inundating a debate with specious claims and links that must be refuted…But here goes.

————————

RE: Quote 1

Do you know who Badri was?
I suggest you read up on him and his various exploits.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badri_Patarkatsishvili

Even the Russians had problems with his fraud and links to several murders and an assassination.

BTW He died of a heart attack in England. Not some fascist Georgian execution squad or even a dose of radioactive Polonium as the FSB of your former homeland have been known to use.

————————

RE: Quote 2

I call it justice. Irakli was released on bail after a hearing and left Georgia. He’s now living in France having been granted asylum after “a Georgian court found him guilty of “large-scale extortion” and sentenced him to 11 years in prison in absentia.”
That’s hardly the methedology of a fascist state and there was no fascist assassination here either poul.

Here’s some info on Irakli Okruashvili’s exploits:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irakli_Okruashvili

The harsh crackdown on opposition protesters defending these two corrupt fools was deplorable but it aggregate hardly serves to brand Georgia as a fascist state.

You might have noticed that Georgia isn’t Seattle and the way they have dealt with opposition is a damn sight better than your homeland has habitually dealt with opposition.

Teargas and rubber bullets are not the equivalent of the Russian T-72’s and Russian fighter bombers busily influencing Georgian politics today.

————————

RE: Quote 3

Badri Patarkatsishvili was co-owner of Imedi TV and many of the station’s staff left in the midst of Badri’s arrest for corruption.

The South Ossetian born Irakli Okruashvili seems to me to be more of a fascist sort (see wiki link above).

————————

As I said before…Quantity isn’t quality.
Georgia is not engaged in state fascism but you might want to look fascism up and apply what you’ve learned to the state of Russia.

Aug 17, 2008 - 10:52 pm 111. ChrisGreen:

After reading the various links referenced by commentors, and varous articles all over the internet (including strategypage which is pretty reliable as far as military news is concerned), a couple of facts seem apparent:

1. While Georgia’s President was legitimately elected, he has on some occasions, acted like a fascist thug since his election. Americans and Israeli’s have paid for some Georgian militiary equipment, all of which was cheap cold war vintage.

2. The whole thing was precipitated when a small group of South Ossetia separatists, probably goaded by Russians, attacked Georgian troops across the border in Georgia proper.

3. The initial reports that Georgians killed 1600 – 2000 South Ossetian civilians were probably exegerated and possibbly highly exagerated. Many contesting reports claim 200-300 and some even claim as low as 60. Also, it is not clear how many were killed by Georgians and how many were killed by Russian dumb bombs dropped on Georgian positions inside the city. In fact, with regard to civilian casuatlies, nothing is clear yet and anyone who buys at face value, the reports of the Georgian government, or, especially, the Russian media is a fool.

It is also highly unlikely that the tiny Georgian army attempted to retake the South Ossetian capitol after the Russians moved in. I have read nothing to indicate that the Georgians tried to retake the city, although a few small scale counter offensives may have been executed. Whether these actually took place, were delaying actions, or the attempt of the Georgian to save face isn’t clear.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:04 am 112. ChrisGreen:

Another thing that is clear:

Even after the Georgian forces had been driven from the separatist provences, Russian forces continued to drive deeper into Georgia, destroying any Georgian military infrastructure as they went.

It is hard to argue that the Russians did this to prevent Georgians from launching a counter attack because the Georgians had already called for a cease fire and were widrawing their forces to major population centers as fast as they could.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:14 am 113. poul:

monkeyfun, you’re incurable fascist apologist.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:56 am 114. Jarhead:

poul: Your comment on Russians weapons was the most ill-informed I’ve ever read. I fought against their stuff in GW1 – it’s crap. Their anti-tank missles were a joke – the Saggers were so slow, LAV’s would just drive out of the way.

Their air defenses sound great on paper. When the balloon goes up, they are easy to jam and easier to destroy with wild-weasal missions.

And poul, the AK-47 is a piece of crap. The Russian Army replaced it years ago with the AK-74. It is a cheap peasant’s weapon, reliable but very inaccurate. Our spec ops never uses them unless they are trying to blend with the locals.

Aug 18, 2008 - 4:43 am 115. Chuck Pelto:

TO: neo-neocon
RE: A River in Egypt

Chuck>No posts about ‘combat preparedness’? Are you suffering from short-term memory loss? Or something worse? citing: “And how good you are at putting on a gas mask and running to a nuclear shelter? (I learned to do this well when I was 6)”

Chuck, as you know, 6 years old do not go for combat. My post was obviously not about combat preparedness but about civilian population living under constant threat of death and destruction. This was the case when I was 6. So, it is not about my serious problems with memory loss or English, but about your problem with ….OK I would not respond to your light biting with another biting.– neo-neocon

Bull-puckie, buckie. You said it, I replied to it, you denied it, I commented on that and you deny it again.

Apparently, your situation is that which I described as “something worse”.

Deal with it.

RE: Fools Corrupt Power

I agree with you about Clintons power to corrupt morality. I actually even mentioned in my previous posts his “pants-down presidency”. I also agree on your point about the obvious role of Kosovo in present conflict about which many people on this forum wrote. If I did not write about something explicitly, this does not mean I do not appreciate the role of those things. Conversely, if I wrote about something, it does not mean that I assume that you necessarily do not know that or would argue with that..– neo-neocon

I’ll probe/’argue’ just about anything. Especially if I get a feel that something is not quite on the up-and-up. [Note: Consider my response to your comments.]

RE: Me & My Christianity Morality

If you have Christian morality, please apply your forgiveness to Russia just as well, especially in the situation when they did not attack first, and do not make any threats to US..– neo-neocon

I’m all for forgiveness. I’ve even found it in myself to forgive that person who killed a little girl, earlier this year, with intentions to eat her.

I can even forgive Russians. But my focus is not on revenge. As it is written, “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord. I shall repay.” Rather, my interest is ‘prevention’.

I don’t hate Russians. I don’t hate criminals. Even child-killing, cannibal wannabes. But I am VERY intent upon preventing them from doing heinous deeds again. The same applies to international affairs.

What do you do? Tell the child-killing, cannibal wannabe, “That was wrong,” and turn them loose on the streets again? When you COULD do something to prevent it from happening again? What kind of a citizen are you, anyway?

They have been punished well enough, first in 1917 for the sins of their ruling elite, than in 1991 for wickedness and corruption. They had suffered and they payed.– neo-neocon

Yes they have. And they are STILL ‘paying’. Why? Because they haven’t changed. As I commented in my earliest comment in this thread. Indeed, they’re going to suffer a LOT more in the long run….if you understand prophecy.

RE: Visiting

I clicked on your name and visited your site.– neo-neocon

Good on you.

But you didn’t pay enough attention to grasp the import of the top item vis-a-vis your Western moral values.

RE: Background Information

About myself: I do not have Mensa membership ID number. I blog sporadically when there are points to argue. I post emails in my Institute list which is saturated by US hating left liberals and I argue with them (I am surprised that I still have my job). You may find my posts in debates with Muslim reviewers of Robert Spencer’s book “The truth about Muhammad”

I highly recommend the book. .– neo-neocon

Never heard of his book. Got enough reading material to read already. Besides, I’m VERY familiar with Islam. I began looking at it a bit more than the average individual when my Sister married an Iranian. I know enough.

On the other hand, I suspect you could use a bit broader understanding. And you were alleging my understanding is too ‘narrow’. I think you project a tad much.

RE: ‘Western’ Moral Values?

I read Robert Spencer’s blog http://www.jihadwatch.org/ every day and would recommend it to anyone who loves US and believes in Western moral values. I think he is one of a few who deserve to be qualified as spiritual and intellectual defender of the Western moral values and our way of life.– neo-neocon

I prefer the Christian form. The REAL Christian that is.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -- John Stuart Mill]

Aug 18, 2008 - 5:48 am 116. poul:

Jarhead:

> I fought against their stuff in GW1 – it’s crap. Their anti-tank missles were a joke – the Saggers were so slow, LAV’s would just drive out of the way.

if you’ve ever been anywhere near GW1 you would know that it was 30 years old gear, not the new stuff. our 30 years old gear is no better in the modern war.

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:04 pm 117. Neo-neocon:

Chuck>(about Russians)Yes they have. And they are STILL ‘paying’. Why? Because they haven’t changed. As I commented in my earliest comment in this thread. Indeed, they’re going to suffer a LOT more in the long run….if you understand prophecy.

I do not think they haven’t changed. In the recent history they changed first during Eltzin time, but that copying of democracy just did not work in Russian context due to different cultural patterns. Now, they have changed again, but contrary to what many people write in US ( including your own racist comments on this list) their present state has nothing to do with former Tsarism or Bolshevism or Stalinism. Nowadays, according to the surveys, most of them are Christians and those who are not are still sympathetic to Christians (nothing like non-Christian public in US). Their “imperial ambitions” are in any case may not be as big as “imperial ambitions” of US. What you guys (specially monkeyfan) say about Russia, reminds me what Left liberals say about US I see same kind of mentality, but with different content.

Unlike US, Russians do not inspire to be a world police, they just police their neighborhood, which any other country on their place would do. Will you argue that US imperial ambitions are good and theirs are bad? I certainly would not agree with them. What they have done in Georgia is in no way more cruel than what US did say in Kosovo or in Iraq. So where are the evidences of modern Russia’s evilness (I mean that evilness which is not found in US actions)? Are there other evidences than prejudgments and perhaps some “prophesies.”

What prophecy you are alluding to? I have seen a lot of prophesies in my life both correct and wrong ones, mostly wrong ones. (I have even had one myself, but that came out to be correct in one year after I had it, I had that in 1990 ) In general I am a bit skeptical about prophesies or the interpretations of the Scriptures. So, what prophecy you are alluding to? Is that of Babylonian whore sitting on 7 hills (Moscow), and about the beasts from Revelation 17 ? If that the case then one should note that the whore was destroyed and what described in Revelation 17-18 had already happened in 1991. Just read and compare and it seems as a perfect description. Or do you expect that it was only the first beast and then there will be second one, which incidentally will be also Russia and that will make war on Lamb? This will not work this way, remember Russians now are Christians, so no chance they will make war with the Lamb or His Church, even after hundred years. Interestingly, while in Russia we believed that the first beast was Lenin (who was wounded) and the second beast was Stalin (who made all to worship to the second beast).

The problem with these interpretations is that they are too local and apply mostly to Russia and not to all people on Earth, as one of my Dutch friend says. The alternative to this is the interpretation from movie Omega Code. In this case the EU is the resurrection of the Roman Empire. Another alternative I would suggest is that first beast was the Islamic caliphate (killed a lot of Christians, much more than Russia) and the second one which is coming now constitute the people who worship the Islamic Caliphate (Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda). In all cases I am a bit skeptical about all those interpretation, in no way I would act on any.

There is no any evidence that Russia would like to grab any of former republics back into fold. Belorussia was campaigning for getting back into Russian “Empire” but the “Empire” does not want to take it back. They have a lot of territory to think about. In absence of evidences all these talks about Russian imperial ambitions are complete nonsense.
But even being a nonsense it may ignite enmity. Many people in US still see them as enemies as this list amply demonstrates. If someone sees you as a criminal and prepares a weapon against you, what you would do? You may be a nice forgiving guy who does not want to harm anyone, but if someone thinks that your are a criminal, then you would not go to meet that guy unarmed, would you?

I am all for prevention. My forgiveness would not go as far as to forgive child molesters. I believe that pedophiles child molesters should die. If a country presents a real threat, like e.g. Germany in 1938, I would not object against attacking it. But the point here is that it should be a real threat of aggression. Tahlebans Afghanistan of 2001 may qualify, but Iraq 2003 certainly does not qualify. By attacking it US become a transgressor. Iran 2008 may qualify or not, one has to look at it more carefully.

Chuck>On the other hand, I suspect you could use a bit broader understanding. And you were alleging my understanding is too ‘narrow’. I think you project a tad much.

Use understanding that is broader than which understanding? The understanding which is reflected in the book title?

Chuck>I prefer the Christian form. The REAL Christian that is.

That is what I mean. Spencer is a real Christian and he is one of a few no nonsense Christians who comment on present day politics. Though he does not act as a religious mentor.

Regards,
neoneo

Aug 18, 2008 - 12:33 pm 118. monkeyfan:

Poul you obviously haven’t the slightest clue what fascist states are beyond its use as an epitaph against people who don’t buy what you’re selling. The only apologists I see for fascism around here are the pathetic fools (see title of article) trying to defend Russia’s actions despite all the facts.

Russia – About as close an example of a modern fascist state outside of N. Korea and China as one can get without a special salute.

Ever hear of Nashi (of course you have)?
State sanctioned cults of personality?

Nationalism mixed with Socialism?

Corporatism?
Government authorized Oligarchies?
Essential state control of the means of production (energy)?

Assassination of political rivals at home and abroad?
Fomenting or engaging in ethnic and class strife/warfare as a means of concentrating centralized power of the state?
Ethnic cleansing or ethnic dilution as a means of consolidating state power?

State control of the means of disseminating information (propaganda)?

But I don’t expect you can connect the dots.

Tank columns and fighter bombers from Russia are busily dismantling Georgia and interfering in Georgia’s politics right now poul.

Now I know you’ll be tempted to claim that the US is some sort of fascist state for taking out Saddam but you’ll likely not have noticed that Saddam’s Ba’ath party is/was Nationalist Socialist with philosophical roots in Nazi ‘third way’ politics and Stalinist methodology.

Tool.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:19 pm 119. Chuck Pelto:

TO: neo-neocon
RE: The Russians

Chuck>(about Russians)Yes they have. And they are STILL ‘paying’. Why? Because they haven’t changed. As I commented in my earliest comment in this thread. Indeed, they’re going to suffer a LOT more in the long run….if you understand prophecy

I do not think they haven’t changed. In the recent history they changed first during Eltzin time, but that copying of democracy just did not work in Russian context due to different cultural patterns. Now, they have changed again, but contrary to what many people write in US ( including your own racist comments on this list) their present state has nothing to do with former Tsarism or Bolshevism or Stalinism. Nowadays, according to the surveys, most of them are Christians and those who are not are still sympathetic to Christians (nothing like non-Christian public in US). Their “imperial ambitions” are in any case may not be as big as “imperial ambitions” of US. What you guys (specially monkeyfan) say about Russia, reminds me what Left liberals say about US I see same kind of mentality, but with different content.– neo-neocon

Well…I guess we’ll just have to disagree….and make a bet or three.

I’ll wager that the Russians stay in most of what they’ve seized of Georgia. And this is in keeping with their desire to move south to the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean.

What say you?

And isn’t that what this topical thread is about in the first place? You’re coming across as one of the principle subjects therein. Especially with your schilling for them vs. US.

Unlike US, Russians do not inspire to be a world police, they just police their neighborhood, which any other country on their place would do. Will you argue that US imperial ambitions are good and theirs are bad? I certainly would not agree with them. What they have done in Georgia is in no way more cruel than what US did say in Kosovo or in Iraq. So where are the evidences of modern Russia’s evilness (I mean that evilness which is not found in US actions)? Are there other evidences than prejudgments and perhaps some “prophesies.”– neo-neocon

No. They aspire to be world dominators. There’s something of a difference. And the latter is worse than what you suggest. Don’t you think?

RE: [OT] Prophecy

What prophecy you are alluding to? I have seen a lot of prophesies in my life both correct and wrong ones, mostly wrong ones. (I have even had one myself, but that came out to be correct in one year after I had it, I had that in 1990 ) In general I am a bit skeptical about prophesies or the interpretations of the Scriptures. So, what prophecy you are alluding to? Is that of Babylonian whore sitting on 7 hills (Moscow), and about the beasts from Revelation 17 ? If that the case then one should note that the whore was destroyed and what described in Revelation 17-18 had already happened in 1991. Just read and compare and it seems as a perfect description. Or do you expect that it was only the first beast and then there will be second one, which incidentally will be also Russia and that will make war on Lamb? This will not work this way, remember Russians now are Christians, so no chance they will make war with the Lamb or His Church, even after hundred years. Interestingly, while in Russia we believed that the first beast was Lenin (who was wounded) and the second beast was Stalin (who made all to worship to the second beast).– neo-neocon

As I said in that earlier post. You don’t pay much attention.

Well. I spelled it out at that place I suggested to you (above) and you didn’t care to bother to read it. So I won’t bother taking up bandwidth here saying what I said there.

RE: [OT] Interpretations of Prophecy

The problem with these interpretations is that they are too local and apply mostly to Russia and not to all people on Earth, as one of my Dutch friend says. The alternative to this is the interpretation from movie Omega Code. In this case the EU is the resurrection of the Roman Empire. Another alternative I would suggest is that first beast was the Islamic caliphate (killed a lot of Christians, much more than Russia) and the second one which is coming now constitute the people who worship the Islamic Caliphate (Muslim Brotherhood and Al Qaeda). In all cases I am a bit skeptical about all those interpretation, in no way I would act on any.– neo-neocon

Re-read what I just said about this.

RE: Back to the Russians

There is no any evidence that Russia would like to grab any of former republics back into fold. Belorussia was campaigning for getting back into Russian “Empire” but the “Empire” does not want to take it back. They have a lot of territory to think about. In absence of evidences all these talks about Russian imperial ambitions are complete nonsense.– neo-neocon

Yeah. Right. That’s why they’re in Georgia and threatening the Ukraine. It’s their ‘piece-loving’ nature.

But even being a nonsense it may ignite enmity. Many people in US still see them as enemies as this list amply demonstrates. If someone sees you as a criminal and prepares a weapon against you, what you would do? You may be a nice forgiving guy who does not want to harm anyone, but if someone thinks that your are a criminal, then you would not go to meet that guy unarmed, would you?– neo-neocon

Not to forget better experience and understand than yours.

I may be unarmed, but I’m NEVER unprepared nor incapable.

I am all for prevention. My forgiveness would not go as far as to forgive child molesters. I believe that pedophiles child molesters should die. If a country presents a real threat, like e.g. Germany in 1938, I would not object against attacking it. But the point here is that it should be a real threat of aggression. Tahlebans Afghanistan of 2001 may qualify, but Iraq 2003 certainly does not qualify. By attacking it US become a transgressor. Iran 2008 may qualify or not, one has to look at it more carefully.– neo-neocon

You don’t act that way. And as the credo of my mech-infantry regiment goes….”Deeds Not Words.” Or as some Wag said, almost 2000 years ago, “A tree is known by its fruit.”

Chuck>On the other hand, I suspect you could use a bit broader understanding. And you were alleging my understanding is too ‘narrow’. I think you project a tad much.

Use understanding that is broader than which understanding? The understanding which is reflected in the book title?– neo-neocon

Still not quite ‘getting it’, eh? Oh well….it was to be expected….

Chuck>I prefer the Christian form. The REAL Christian that is.

That is what I mean. Spencer is a real Christian and he is one of a few no nonsense Christians who comment on present day politics. Though he does not act as a religious mentor.– neo-neocon

I don’t know Spencer. But I’m curious as to what he makes of strange ‘locust’ and horses with ‘tails like snakes’ vis-a-vis Gulf War I.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Americans in 1950 rediscovered something that since Hiroshima they had forgotten: you may fly over a land forever; you may bomb it, atomize it, pulverize it and wipe it clean of life—but if you desire to defend it, protect it, and keep it for civilization, you must do this on the ground, the way the Roman legions did, by putting your young men into the mud.-- T.R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War: A Study In Unpreparedness]

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:40 pm 120. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Additional Thoughts from Fehrenbach….

“The object of warfare is to dominate the earth, with its peoples, for causes just or unjust. — T.R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War”

This is another indicator of Russia’s intentions. But the proof will be whether or not they fully withdraw from ALL of Georgia.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:48 pm 121. Brian:

Russian aggression is fooling no one.Their attempts to revive a soviet empire will fall flat on their face in they havent already.I take that nuclear threat towards Poland seriously,and NATO and the Allies will take steps in checking Russian aggression.Training of Georgia’s military will continue and theres nothing Russia can do about it.We hold the cards and have done so since 1989.For years i stockpiled info about the background of Russia and their police state.I never thought the info would come in handy to let the next generation be aware of what Russia truly is.
We will continue to speak out against Russia and be critical until real freedom prevails and puny Putin is gone.

Aug 18, 2008 - 1:59 pm 122. monkeyfan:

Chuck methinks the Russian apologists around here could stand to read some Clausewitz too.
;^)

Good on ya Brian I’ve also saved heaps of resources on the USSR and post-Soviet Russia; recognizing that the Soviet-Russo threat hadn’t disappeared, it had only changed.

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:00 pm 123. Chuck Pelto:

TO: monkeyfan
RE: C[l]ause[witz] for Alarm

“…methinks the Russian apologists around here could stand to read some Clausewitz too.” — monkeyfan

True.

Especially the part about how war in an extension of diplomacy.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. His treatise, ‘On War’, was on the suggested reading list for young captains at Benning School for Boys when I attended the Advanced course.

Funny. Isn’t it? How whatzizname can’t quite equate military training with a grasp of international affairs. I speak rhetorically…..

Aug 18, 2008 - 3:19 pm 124. monkeyfan:

“Funny. Isn’t it? How whatzizname can’t quite equate military training with a grasp of international affairs.”

It’s rather obvious given whatzizname’s rhetorical contortions.
;^)

Aug 18, 2008 - 7:02 pm 125. Neo-neocon:

Hi Chuck,
I am sorry, I really did look at:
TALKING PROPHECY — 080810
following various links in different directions, here:
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/mine_eyes_have_seen_the_glory.php
then here:
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/obama_the_antichrist.php

I have spent about 10 minutes trying to find anything which may be relevant to our discussion in this thread in some way, but however I tried I did not find it.

I would take your wager and bet on Russias pullout from proper Georgia. They may prolong it for a week or a month, just to humiliate Saakashvilli and Condi.

Chuck> “The object of warfare is to dominate the earth, with its peoples, for causes just or unjust. — T.R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War” This is another indicator of Russia’s intentions.

Neoneo> LOL, Your call a thought of a US military strategist “an indication of Russian intentions.” Either you do not know meaning of the English word “indication” or your are a complete moron. I suggest you to take a dictionary and revisit definition of words “indication,” “evidence,” “assumption” and “hypothesis.”

OK, Ill help you out: You just took some thought of a US officer, perhaps you learned it in your school and your project it on the mind of Russian officers. Psychologists call this projection.

Besides the short period of history (when due to Communist ideology Russian were behaving like fascist and conqured Baltic republics and tried all sort of things) Russians have had entirely different military doctrine. Even in the time of Tzar, most those nations who were part of Russian Empire were not conquered, but join Russia for the sake of being protected. Chechens were exception and the case with Georgia is more a complex diplomatic intrigue, neither conquest nor voluntary entry. And (FYI, monkeyfan) it did not happen during soviet time.

You just look at the post on this list calling for attacks on Russia. Try to find any pro Russian forum that call for Russian conquest of US. I doubt you find one after 1991. They had this kind of “thinking” during Communist time, but that was more for spreading Communist ideology. When the Communist pestilense was cured, all that crap has gone. Now Russians want only money. No use of someones else land, they have too much land and too few people..

Chuck> Funny. Isn’t it? How whatzizname can’t quite equate military training with a grasp of international affairs.

Neoneo> When I was in university in Russia we considered our military officers as most dumb people who get high education. It is not that they do not learn anything, they just can’t think for themselves. Yes, they learn about politics, but they can’t think.

I have had much better opinion about US military training, as well as human character of US officers, I am used to arguing with hyppies defending military people, but your guys disappoint me with your stuns..

Regards,
neoneo

Aug 18, 2008 - 7:02 pm 126. Neo-neocon:

Chuck(le)>
[Know thy enemy and thyself and thou shalt never be defeated. — Sun Tzu, The Art of War; mandatory reading at Benning School for Boys]
Neoneo> My friend is missing the fun of his school- time? I too. But coming back to my thought about the difference between learning good things and applying the knowledge: Every one who works in Pentagon, including Gordon England must have read the statement you quote. Do they really value that wisdom of Sun Tzu? The answer is big NO. Here is why:
There are many article in US media about Major Coughlin who wrote a thesis: “TO OUR GREAT DETRIMENT”:IGNORING WHAT EXTREMISTS SAY ABOUT JIHAD
Here is his story:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019446.php
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/01/saving_major_coughlin.html
Here is his thesis:
http://www.strategycenter.net/docLib/20080107_Coughlin_ExtremistJihad.pdf
Alas, the wisdom of Sun Tsu was not of much use to Gordon England.

Regards,
neoneo

Aug 18, 2008 - 7:27 pm 127. monkeyfan:

NNC are you at all aware of the topic of this thread?

Aug 18, 2008 - 8:02 pm 128. Neo-neocon:

Monkeyfan> Given the apparent ease with which you twist in opposing winds, your claim that this here thread is the first time you’ve hurled the “racist” much less the “redneck racist” epitaph at someone who is trouncing your arguments is highly suspect as to border on the ludicrous.

Neoneo>While in US I have been surrounded by University public where there are many so called inverse racists, but I simply have not met a real person who would write or utter in my presence that race (in his case genes) is a reason of certain national trends. I do not know though if Chuck was serious, or it was just a Military joke.

I used word “moron” in this thread only because the language of the thread contains it in the title.

Monkeyfan> You really are a piece of work.
I still want to know what “moral compass” says we shouldn’t support and defend Georgia in any way we can when they are being stomped by the same damn familiar bear that’s threatening destruction for several more of our country’s friends as we speak.

Neoneocon> I still have not seen your answer to my question. I said “Saakashvilly sucks” and I asked you a question if you agree or not. Without your answer on it I can not answer your question above completely. What is the difference between Saakashvilly and Putin?

But let us make it simple: If your friend being dunked attack somebody on the street, and they beat him well and then your friend come to you, ask you to take your gun and go to punish those people. Will you do that knowing that it is your own friend who started the mess? Possibly you will come to help your friend to punish people who beaten him. But than, it is you and your friends who are thugs, not the guys who beaten him in response to his aggression.

Monkeyfan> Did Russia not serve as the ‘moral’ and material epicenter of nearly a century of terror, death, and gulags?

Neoneocon> Did not America was practicing slavery and should not it pay for that? LOL, your are using the same stupid logic as the Left, only difference that they apply it to US and you apply it to Russia. You are using even the same terms: “Financial oligarchy” is what used in Soviet schools to describe American system. Are you some damn crazy Leftist or what?

Or may be you are a Russian spy playing an American patriot, just to find roads to US military circles? No way KGB scam, you can try to hide behind words, but you can not hide your nature. I see through your writings a soul of a fascist. Looking at the way you use metaphors and images I tend to think that you are also mentally unstable ilk, just like your friend Saakasvilli.

Aug 18, 2008 - 8:18 pm 129. Neo-neocon:

monkefan>
NNC are you at all aware of the topic of this thread?

neoneo> the thread is about Russia as well as about morons and maniacs. The author argues that defenders of Russia are morons and maniac. I argue that it is the other way around, that it is the author and people like you are morons and maniaks and have problems with using basic intellectual capabilities.

I also argue that there many morons and maiacs in Pentagon and in White House which is part of the reason why we may have mess with Russia in the future.

Aug 18, 2008 - 8:31 pm 130. monkeyfan:

Lol! Oh Jesus!

“Or may be you are a Russian spy playing an American patriot, just to find roads to US military circles? No way KGB scam, you can try to hide behind words, but you can not hide your nature. I see through your writings a soul of a fascist. Looking at the way you use metaphors and images I tend to think that you are also mentally unstable ilk, just like your friend Saakasvilli.”

“There are none so blind as those who will not see…Themselves in a mirror.”
- 1546 (John Heywood)

PS. I may have added that last part.

Aug 18, 2008 - 8:57 pm 131. Russian Bear:

Why don’t you guys talk on more important and familiar to you topics? Like gay marriages, abortions, presidential elections?

Aug 18, 2008 - 10:12 pm 132. Champions in Hypocrisy:

And you Kim Zigfield and your supporters are pathethic Russophobes.

Since Bill Clinton invaded the Balkans and severed Kosovo from the Yugoslav torso, the incredibly patient Russians had stoically endured years of abuse, insults, and increasingly open belligerence directed at the Kremlin. Yet still they tried to have normal relations with the West. The turning point was reached only recently, as the Americans defended the Georgian invasion of South Ossetia and implicitly justified the murder of a dozen Russian soldiers, who were on a UN-sanctioned peacekeeping mission.

The War Party never sleeps – they’ve always got a new angle up their sleeves, a new “Hitler” who must be crushed in the name of democracy and decency, and against whom all the resources of the West must be mobilized – until a new enemy is found. The latest such enemy is Putin’s Russia, specifically, Putin himself, who is now being characterized as a hybrid monster, an authoritarian admixture of Hitler and Stalin.

What is troubling is the U.S. media’s willingness to similarly toe the party line, but in the absence of any of the coercive measures, such as the state censorship, that the Russian press endures. There have been no William Dunbars on CNN, despite the fact that every report I’ve seen on the channel yesterday had been framed as ‘Russian invasion,’ with endless clips of Saakashvili alleging Russian crimes, etc., in a loop of totally pro-Georgian coverage. Georgia is a key U.S. ally, the 3rd largest troop contingent in Iraq, and occupies a strategic, oil rich zone. The self-policing in the U.S. media, which has basically been uncritically promoting government talking points, is very disturbing.

It is obvious that the current conflict in Georgia has been greatly influenced by the United States’ and the European Union’s decision to initiate, support and recognize Kosovo’s independence. Over the last few days this connection has been made in newspapers from Spain to China. Prominent European statesmen such as Lech Walesa and Jiri Dienstbier also have linked the current violence in the Caucasus to the “irresponsible” decision to recognize Serbia’s breakaway province.

Even the major protagonists in the current crisis have embraced this connection. The South Ossetians and Abkhazians have cited Kosovo’s independence as an argument for their own separatist ambitions; the Russians have referred to Kosovo to slash at the credibility and legitimacy of EU and American criticisms. Georgian leaders who had warned about the dangerous precedent of Kosovo’s independence and had refused to recognize it are now desperately attempting to find differences between the two situations in order to deny any possible legitimacy for the case for independence of its own separatist regions.

There is now a striking similarity between the current Georgian crisis and the Kosovo issue. In 1999, arguing that a humanitarian intervention was needed to protect innocent civilians from a repressive and violent state, NATO bombed Serbia and effectively separated Kosovo from the rest of the country. Now it is Russia’s turn at humanitarian intervention. The Albanians in Kosovo claimed a right to self-determination and their own state, arguing that their rights would never fully be guaranteed in Serbia. This fundamental claim is now being made by Ossetians and Abkhazians as to why they need to be independent from Georgia.

Kosovo’s independence came about in large part through an arrogant and reckless attitude in Washington (primarily in the Department of State and Congress), as well as in some EU capitals, that the positions of Serbia and Russia could simply be ignored. The U.N. Security Council and international law could be bypassed simply by arguing that the Kosovo problem was “unique” and easily quarantined from other similar ethnically motivated disputes over territory. There was a mistaken belief that if American and EU diplomats, officials and leaders repeated the official mantra that “Kosovo is unique” and that “Kosovo is not a precedent” that this would suffice to contain any possible repercussions from a policy that was hastily endorsed as “the only possible” option. American and some European diplomats grew fond of saying that Serbia and Russia should accept “reality” and the “facts on the ground” in Kosovo.

Now it is Washington and Brussels who must accept the reality of their own policy blunder in Kosovo, if they are to have any chance at containing and ending the violence in Georgia. This ought to begin by acknowledging that Kosovo’s case for independence is no more or less unique than that of South Ossetia, Abkhazia or numerous others. It also should be realized that wishful thinking is no substitute for policy that is based on principles anchored in international law.

Aug 18, 2008 - 10:25 pm 133. monkeyfan:

Nice copy and paste fu “Champions in Hypocrisy”:

http://freepage.twoday.net/stories/5124846/

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13317

Aug 18, 2008 - 11:15 pm 134. poul:

monkeyfan, not only you are a fascist apologist, you’re also trying to break into an open door – i already said that russian government is fascist. the links i provided demonstrate that georgian government is no less fascist. in the spirit of this forum’s paranoia i should probably ask how much georgians pay you, but i doubt your services are worth anything to anyone.

anyone, and i mean anyone, who doesn’t recognize as fascist a government that closes opposition’s media before elections, is a tool.

Aug 19, 2008 - 12:01 am 135. poul:

Champions in Hypocrisy,

tl/dr.

folks, you want to know how real kgb stooges sound like? this is it. probably crafted by former english lit professor in some provincial city’s kgb center, for pound of stale salami and bottle of cheap vodka.

Aug 19, 2008 - 12:03 am 136. Buzz Daly:

If the author can’t even get it right about who started the ruckus (Georgia) everything else is just hot air.

Saakashvili is an out of control egomaniac who got misled by GWB and his cohorts (gee, there’s something new, eh? GWB lying) and thought he’d have some backup for his stupid military venture.

Not so much. GWB was busy smooching Commie Butt in Beijing and, apparently was too busy.

If NATO has anything to do with this at all, it should be to investigate Georgia for war crimes committed against the citizens of Tkashvili that began the night of August 7, when THEY invaded.

Folks can try as hard as they want to ignore the facts, but, they will not go away.

The US and Israel have been making trouble in that area for more than 60 years, including the installation of the dictatorial Shah, and removal of the popularly elected Mossadeg.

Saakhasvili seems to have about as much intelligence as GWB when it comes to planning military ventures. None.

Aug 19, 2008 - 12:16 am 137. John Samford:

“If the author can’t even get it right about who started the ruckus (Georgia) everything else is just hot air.”

Moroon. It was a Russsian set up from the get go. Lots of open source material on the web showing that, you just don’t want to see it.
http://www.slate.com/id/2197704/

If you knew ANYTHING of history, you would know that Hitler ‘manufactured’ incidents like the one in Georgia before he started WW2. Now Putin is doing it before starting WW5 ( actually, in deference to the computer age and the fact that WW4 is still going on, I think WW4.1 would be better then WW5) Which would make him the 21st century Hitler.

South Ossetia, actrually started the whole thing. On Russian orders, no doubt. If you want to know what is happening, here is a clue;
Chechnya.
In Chechnya the Russians did the same exact thing the Georgians were doing in South Ossetia.
No, this is about recovering land the Soviets lost in the breakup of the Soviet Union and closing off the only non-Russian pipeline into Europe.

Aug 19, 2008 - 4:45 am 138. Shawn:

Vladimir Putin is no Stalin. He is a nationalist determined, as ruler of a proud and powerful country, to assert his nation’s primacy in its own sphere, just as U.S. presidents from James Monroe to Bush have done on our side of the Atlantic.As for Saakashvili, he’s probably toast in Tbilisi after this stunt. Let the neocons find him an endowed chair at the American Enterprise Institute.

Aug 19, 2008 - 7:11 am 139. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Shawn [the Schill]

“Vladimir Putin is no Stalin.” — Shawn

Yeah. Right….

That’s why all those journalists and activists who’ve opposed him end up dead.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 19, 2008 - 7:24 am 140. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Monroe v. Putin

“He is a nationalist determined, as ruler of a proud and powerful country, to assert his nation’s primacy in its own sphere, just as U.S. presidents from James Monroe to Bush have done on our side of the Atlantic.” — Shawn [the shill]

Let’s see here.

Shawn wants to compare the Monroe Doctrine against what Putin is doing.

That’s an interesting comparison, as the Monroe Doctrine was not, at face value, intended to dominate any part of the Western Hemisphere. Rather it was intended to prevent such domination. And this back when the US was nothing more than another ‘third world’ country…in the eyes of the run-of-the-day European.

On the other hand, we have the Putin doctrine, which based on current events calls for full scale military invasion and occupation, with commensurate bloodshed and mayhem.

Based on this egregious misrepresentation of the two doctrines, compounded by Putin’s predilection to kill journalists to dispute his policies, I see no reason to question my understanding that Shawn is just a planted shill for the rising Russian Empire.

I wonder if is IP or bank account would demonstrate the truth of this observation. His statements certainly do.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Follow the money.]

Aug 19, 2008 - 11:22 am 141. Neo-neocon:

TO: Chuck and monkeyfan
RE: Humor

monkeyfan>Lol! Oh Jesus!

“Or may be you are a Russian spy playing an American patriot, just to find roads to US military circles? No way KGB scam, you can try to hide behind words, but you can not hide your nature. I see through your writings a soul of a fascist. Looking at the way you use metaphors and images I tend to think that you are also mentally unstable ilk, just like your friend Saakasvilli.”

“There are none so blind as those who will not see…Themselves in a mirror.”
- 1546 (John Heywood)

neoneo>Yes, you are right. What you have not noticed that the small insinuation you quoted reflects your own patterns of thinking. It was intended to show you how your yourself and some other on this thread look like in the mirror. You just read all those accusation “she should have been registerd as a russian agent,” “you are a a planted shill for the rising Russian Empire.”

I presumed that all these things (just as calling someone a “moron” or blaming someones parents for the quality of ther job ) is just a normal US Military humor. Please correct me if that is wrong on this.

I tried to mantain the same level of agression. I hope your guys do not feel offended by what I said. If you do, I apologize.

Regards,
neoneo

Aug 19, 2008 - 12:10 pm 142. Chuck Pelto:

TO:All
RE: Looking vs. Seeing

I am sorry, I really did look at:
TALKING PROPHECY — 080810
following various links in different directions, here:
http://meganmcardle.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/mine_eyes_have_seen_the_glory.php
then here:
http://rossdouthat.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/08/obama_the_antichrist.php– neo-neocon

neo-neocon (nnc, for short) definitely has problems as described by Christ. Things along the lines of having eyes but not seeing. And I’ll wager he has ears too. But they will hardly help in his perception.

I have spent about 10 minutes trying to find anything which may be relevant to our discussion in this thread in some way, but however I tried I did not find it.– neo-neocon

Here we have nnc declaring that he wanted to perceive about prophecy, all the while professing his belief in Robert Spencer….why THAT(?), I ask myself. And yet, after spending 10 whole minutes reading some accounts of ‘prophecy come true before his very eyes’, he still doesn’t quite ‘get it’.

Oh well….{heavy sigh}…..

RE: Wagers on Reality

I would take your wager and bet on Russias pullout from proper Georgia. They may prolong it for a week or a month, just to humiliate Saakashvilli and Condi.– neo-neocon

There’s something of a difference between “would” and “will”. In other words, he’s not going to accept the wager. Instead he obfuscates.

RE: History Lessons, Anyone?

Chuck> “The object of warfare is to dominate the earth, with its peoples, for causes just or unjust. — T.R. Fehrenbach, This Kind of War” This is another indicator of Russia’s intentions.

Neoneo> LOL, Your call a thought of a US military strategist “an indication of Russian intentions.” Either you do not know meaning of the English word “indication” or your are a complete moron. I suggest you to take a dictionary and revisit definition of words “indication,” “evidence,” “assumption” and “hypothesis.”– neo-neocon

Actually, he’s a teacher of history from high school. He was also a member of the reserve-component, called to duty at the outbreak of the Korean War. Spent the entire conflict there as an infantry officer.

When his unit was demobilized, he returned to his civilian profession of teaching history and wrote the book; published in the early 60s.

While I attended the Infantry Officers’ Advanced Course at Benning School for Boys, every general officer who came to lecture at the school said, “READ THIS BOOK!” In no uncertain terms. So, when I got to my next duty assignment, I had Tattered Cover run a copy to ground for me.

OK, Ill help you out: You just took some thought of a US officer, perhaps you learned it in your school and your project it on the mind of Russian officers. Psychologists call this projection.– neo-neocon

I’ve already explained myself on where I learned this. And yet, nnc still doesn’t comprehend. Oh well….

….more on that later.

Besides the short period of history (when due to Communist ideology Russian were behaving like fascist and conqured Baltic republics and tried all sort of things) Russians have had entirely different military doctrine. Even in the time of Tzar, most those nations who were part of Russian Empire were not conquered, but join Russia for the sake of being protected. Chechens were exception and the case with Georgia is more a complex diplomatic intrigue, neither conquest nor voluntary entry. And (FYI, monkeyfan) it did not happen during soviet time.– neo-neocon

I do believe nnc is supporting my comments….not to forget the comments of others here.

You just look at the post on this list calling for attacks on Russia. Try to find any pro Russian forum that call for Russian conquest of US. I doubt you find one after 1991. They had this kind of “thinking” during Communist time, but that was more for spreading Communist ideology. When the Communist pestilense was cured, all that crap has gone. Now Russians want only money. No use of someones else land, they have too much land and too few people..– neo-neocon

We can attack Russia. It’s as simple as the push of a button. Or we can do it in another fashion.

However, based on nnc’s apparent position, no attack would be better.

Chuck> Funny. Isn’t it? How whatzizname can’t quite equate military training with a grasp of international affairs.

Neoneo> When I was in university in Russia we considered our military officers as most dumb people who get high education. It is not that they do not learn anything, they just can’t think for themselves. Yes, they learn about politics, but they can’t think.– neo-neocon

Ach TSO!

Went to “university in Russia”. This goes FAR to explain nnc’s perspective. Not to mention his distain, let alone comprehension, of ‘prophecy’. I wonder how close he is to Shawn [the shill]? Alumni? Class-mates?

The truth will out.

By the way, as I understand it, being a Christian is not a good thing, if you’re trying to get a higher education in some ‘university in Russia’. Therefore, how is it that nnc reads jihadwatch, by some ‘Christian’ on a recurring basis? Perhaps it’s along the lines of what some TAC Officer at West Point told a cadet when asked, “Why are we [cadets] required to subscribe to the New York Times?”

The TAC Officer replied, “Know your enemy.”

Would someone please show me that I am wrong here.

I have had much better opinion about US military training, as well as human character of US officers, I am used to arguing with hyppies defending military people, but your guys disappoint me with your stuns..– neo-neocon

I’m wondering how much vodka has been consumed at this point.

Chuck(le)>[Know thy enemy and thyself and thou shalt never be defeated. — Sun Tzu, The Art of War; mandatory reading at Benning School for Boys]

Neoneo> My friend is missing the fun of his school- time? I too. But coming back to my thought about the difference between learning good things and applying the knowledge: Every one who works in Pentagon, including Gordon England must have read the statement you quote. Do they really value that wisdom of Sun Tzu? The answer is big NO.” — neo-neocon

Here’s the proof that nnc is either totally ignorant or a liar. He claims that anyone who has read and understands Sun Tzu will not apply that knowledge. And yet, TAC Officers at West Point throw it in cadets’ faces (see above).

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.]

P.S. That being said, I think it is a waste of time to deal with nnc. I’ve better thinks to do that trying to teach people who don’t REALLY care to learn. Especially Russian shills….

Aug 19, 2008 - 12:46 pm 143. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Oops!

I apparently overlooked THIS comment….

Either you do not know meaning of the English word “indication” or your are a complete moron. — neo-neocon

Sorry about that. But I had to bring it up, as it ties in with my earlier supposition of nnc’s mentality, when I stated…

First you were all up there about combat preparedness. Then, failing that, you want to talk about mental capabilities.

What will you attempt next? Ad homs? — Chuck Pelto @ Aug 17, 2008 – 9:32 am

Looks like nnc finally lived ‘up’ to expectations.

Again. Another reason to give him the ‘air’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Prevaricator: A liar in the caterpillar state.]

Aug 19, 2008 - 2:44 pm 144. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. As the creator of this topical thread put it…..pathetic…..

Aug 19, 2008 - 2:45 pm 145. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Where Is nnc? And….

….what time is it in Moscow?

Currently, as I type this, it is 3:21 AM.

Think about it….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out...one would hope.]

Aug 19, 2008 - 4:21 pm 146. Neo-neocon:

TO: Chuck
RE: your last comments

Chuck>There’s something of a difference between “would” and “will”. In other words, he’s not going to accept the wager. Instead he obfuscates.

Neoneo>I would take your wager if it were possible over internet. It would be 100 bucks against 50 that Russians will live Georgia in a months, they can do it in a week, but not completelly. Obviously, they will never leave South Ossetia and I do not think they should. But, we cannot do wager over internet, right? That is why I said “would” rather then “will.” Got it, Einstein?

Chuck> By the way, as I understand it, being a Christian is not a good thing, if you’re trying to get a higher education in some ‘university in Russia’.

Neoneo> I was in Moscow State University doing Ph.D. studies in Logic. Since I was born in Russia , I did not have chance to go to any other country, Moscow was the best I can get. When the iron courtain was down I ran from Russia to a much better country, I did not even want to finish my Ph.D. in Moscow. Before getting to Moscow State University I had been working in Orthodox Church for a few months. There were problems of being Christian in Russia, obviously. But in 1990th the rebellion was already brewing. We have not got our freedom of faith on a silver plate as you have got yours, kids.

Chuck>Therefore, how is it that nnc reads jihadwatch, by some ‘Christian’ on a recurring basis? Perhaps it’s along the lines of what some TAC Officer at West Point told a cadet when asked, “Why are we [cadets] required to subscribe to the New York Times?”

Neoneo>The same kind of joke you are repeating all the time, are not you? Can you use some new pattern, just for a change?

On serious note: Yes, I read JW to understand the enemy, that JW is all about. But obviously Christians are not my enemies. JW is basically a blog that collects the articles about terrorist activity and about stealth jihad in US, Europe, Asia, Russia etc. But you will not read it, old dude, will you? Nor will you read Major Coughlin’s thesis, right? You have done all your reading during your school time, right old dude?

OK, now let us talk now about problems with your intellect. Here are the fragments which do really *INDICATE* that your mental capabilities are inferior:

Chuck> I’ve better thinks to do that trying to teach people who don’t REALLY care to learn. Especially Russian shills….

Neoneo> Chuck, why do not you check a dictionary definition of word “shill” and after that tell me if one can be a “Russian shill” in this forum? You can either acknowledge that you are a Russian (as I did right from the begining) or be a shill. You can’t be both. I think your are missing basic reasoning skills. What is your IQ?

Chuck>Here’s the proof that nnc is either totally ignorant or a liar. He claims that anyone who has read and understands Sun Tzu will not apply that knowledge.

neoneo> First, this means that you have not looked at the links I posted, those links proves that Gordon England does not apply the knowledge which he obviously should have got in his school time (the fact that he does not was the essence of my argument). But that is to heavy for a retired officer, I guess.

Second, you are obviously not adept in Aristotelian Logic, or in any Logic for that matter. It should be obvious that many people do not apply the knowledge they get from the books they read. And also, please open the dictionary and see what “proof” means.
This are just two samples. I will abstain from explaining you in details why your alluding to prophesy in your website “Obama is Antichrist” (or what it was?) makes no any sense. Possibly, I can go on and on commenting on your basic logical fallacies (I still formally am a teacher, actually a Professor), but I would not take your time. We probably are of the same age, but you have lost your capacity to learn, old dude, while I have not.

I have looked carefully at what you wrote in your last two post. OMG, and I even assumed that your 27 years of training in infantry would qualify your to beat me in the range or in street combat! Sorry, I have to take that statement back. After reading what you write I suspect that your eyes and reflexes are just as sharp as your brain and you are a sheety shooter either, old dude.

I do not say anything about your morality, if you are really a Christian you may be good to go. But the bottom-line is that in intellectual sphere you are inferior.

And yes, you are pathetic either.

Regards,
neoneo

Aug 19, 2008 - 5:00 pm 147. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Touched a Nerve on an Insomniac?

As I said earlier, the ad homs would come forth.

nnc attempts the third option of the Lawyers’ Rule:

[1] If the Law is against you, argue the facts.
[2] If the facts are against you, argue the Law.
[3] If the Law and the facts are against you, call the other side names.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....eventually.]

Aug 19, 2008 - 5:09 pm 148. John Samford:

Have they left yet? 11 days and counting since Russia invaded and raped a sovereign Nation, Violating the UN Charter. It’s time to bounce them out of their Security Council seat and give that seat to India.

Aug 19, 2008 - 6:29 pm 149. monkeyfan:

Spot on Mr. Samford. India has become a great power worthy of a seat at the security council.

Mr. Pelto what I love about this thread is the semi-permanence of this record. This is Russia Today.
Like a snapshot appropriately titled: “Russia’s Pathetic Defenders”

Sweet!

Aug 19, 2008 - 8:32 pm 150. Chuck Pelto:

TO: John Samford and monkeyfan
RE: The Only Thing….

….more pathetic than Russia’s Pathetic Defenders is the UN.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. All of this is providing evidence supporting the realization of a prophecy by Nostradamus….

…that Russia goes to war with Western Europe. But it fails to prevail for lack of repair parts and other issues of a {excuse the term} ‘logistical’ nature.

[Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study logistics.]

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:10 am 151. Don:

Pathetic Liars, there leaders are a low life bunch of people.

Aug 20, 2008 - 6:17 am 152. monkeyfan:

Mr. Peloto I’m right there with you. Unfortunately the UN isn’t going anywhere soon and it would be nice to disrupt the status quo eh?

Aug 20, 2008 - 7:11 am 153. Jarhead:

Poul – There “new” gear is just the old crap slightly updated. It’s still crap.

Aug 20, 2008 - 8:30 am 154. Neo-neocon:

To: Chuck
RE:ad homs

Chuck>As I said earlier, the ad homs would come forth.
nnc attempts the third option of the Lawyers’ Rule:….

neoneo>Chuck, you are missing the meaning of word “ad homs.” It means attacking someone’s personal character to disprove his points. I did attack your points first, by demonstrating that your logical conclusions are based on your ignorance of the dictionary definitions and your misuse of Logic. Based on your errors I concluded that your brain is very soft. Put it in another way: the character of the logical errors your are making INDICATE that your brain is soft (and hence your conclusions are pathetic). This is not ad hominem argument. fyi, consult this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

To: All
RE: US attack on Russia (possibility and feasibility)

Chuck>P.S. All of this is providing evidence supporting the realization of a prophecy by Nostradamus….

Augh.. That is the prophesy you were talking about. ( I just thought that you are some sort of pure Christian, so Nostradamus escaped from my list of assumptions). But please note, Nostradamus also said that the catastrophe can be prevented if there is only one person of strong will. As I see it now, if Russian and US people (like those on this list)continue to follow their natural reflexes, we will definitely have nuclear war by 2012. At the moment no one seems has will just to stop his own natural flow of aggression.

The only hope for saving the world is the possibility that God will make your guys to elect a hippie president in 2012, whose first Commander’s in Chief order would be to stuff every gun barrel with flowers and keep it that way. With this sort of uncircumspect agression I see here your certainly deserve it, boys.

OK, I am not a hippie and do not advocate peace. But, please learn from Hitler’s failure in WW2 war, – you could not fight all out war on two fronts. You have already got on your plate Al Queda, Hisbulla and dozen of other groups that hate US. Should few suitcase nukes be “stolen” by those guys from Russia and sent to US through Mexican border, you will loose New Yourk, Washington, LA and few other cities, before your even attempt a conventional attack on Russian mainland.

So, finish first with one big enemy, then attack another one. If you already have big problem with the first one, you will obviously get much more with the two attacking from different ends. Remember that Russian can be evil beyound your imagination (take it from a Russian). Imagine possible scenarios, count your expenses and loses of life. Then play it smart.

Regards,
neoneo

PS: Should not they teach you these simple things in school? I bet you may supply a quote of someone pointing at this simple idea, but it would only demonstrate that you can read wise things and be not capable to apply them in real life. That is why you are not strategists.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:08 pm 155. monkeyfan:

Self abuse…Must be a Russian thing.

Aug 20, 2008 - 12:34 pm 156. Chuck Pelto:

TO: monkeyfan
RE: Indeed

“Self abuse…Must be a Russian thing.” — monkeyfan

But there might be a simple cure for the[ir] problem….

….we could establish, in reality, what is termed the Ryan Doctrine; from Tom Clancy’s novel, Executive Orders.

A great book. And as Clancy seems to be rather prescient, I think it could be applied to this situation. Not only with Putin, but with our friend Ahmy as well.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Life is good, if you keep the vermin under control.]

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:26 pm 157. monkeyfan:

I had to look than one up but – Capital Idea!

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:29 pm 158. Chuck Pelto:

TO: monkeyfan
RE: The Concept

According to my interpretation of the situation vis-a-vis Putin and Georgia, Putin is already across the proverbial line.

Ahmy, on the other hand, hasn’t done anything that overtly justifies such action…..YET.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Patience, friend. Patience…..

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:32 pm 159. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: A Point of Clarification

In accordance with the Ryan Doctrine, Putin has NOT attacked US directly. But he has instigated a war of aggression against one of our friends. And by that I mean REAL friends.

Now, if we were to send in a group of naval vessels with the intention of helping the poor Georgians and Putin’s forces attacked said naval group, killing any American citizens thereon…THEN he’d absolutely crossed the line and would either be terminated or live his life with Osama bin Laden; hiding out in caves in obscure and desolate parts of the world.

That IS if US adopted the Ryan Doctrine….which I think is a pretty good idea. After all, most heads of state don’t relish the idea of living in a cave or a hole in the side of a septic tank, a la Saddam Hussein.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Aug 20, 2008 - 3:48 pm 160. monkeyfan:

Suck it up Russian apologists: http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0820mt.html

Aug 20, 2008 - 9:11 pm 161. poul:

looks like paid georgians agents are found not only in mccain campaign…

Aug 21, 2008 - 12:34 am 162. monkeyfan:

Michael Totten? A paid agent of Georgia?

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your paranoia poul.

Aug 21, 2008 - 8:36 am 163. george:

A more worthy article would be on Russia’s pathetic attackers, such as LaRussophobe for which Kim Zigfeld writes. One cannot simply get enough of vile attacking, manipulation of information, lack of rational arhumentation and personal attack on anybody who disagrees. One has to look at what appears under the title to understand, such discourse can simply not be taken seriously, least of all when “rationalizing” is depicted as something negative. Meanwhile, it would be intersting to note that the current US ambassador to Moscow has considered Russia’s actions in Georgia as legitimate. Is he also paranoid or a moron?

Aug 23, 2008 - 9:32 am 164. Mitch:

So, Randy Scheunmann is to blame for South Ossetia?! Nice joke! If any of you conspiracy theorists knew an ounce of what you talk about you would know that Russia is and has been for years spreading big amounts of $$$ around DC. Ketchum Communications does their PR and their lobbying. They buy monthly sections in the “Washington Post”. Tom DeLay took over $1,000,000 from Russian oil interests to fund his “non-profit”. They bought Curt Weldon. There are Russian shills all over town. Why does the supposedly “conservative” Pat Buchanan always defend Russia? One can only wonder. The same for Ron Paul. Jack Abrahamoff worked for the Kremlin’s allies in Serbia and Ukraine. One can only help but wonder what he may have done for Russia. OOOO, Georgia has one McCain connected lobbyist working for them! Big damn deal!!!!

Aug 24, 2008 - 7:44 pm 165. Drasties - Nou breekt me de klomp.:

[...] August 16th, writing on Pajamas Media, LR publisher Kim Zigfeld responded to Ivanova’s screed in the Post, exposing its falsity and [...]

Aug 31, 2008 - 12:56 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: