Pajamas Media

26 Comments

1. Daniel:

The time to do something about this was ten years ago. The remaining Christian communities are so small that even that they will disappear in a few generations. The author leaves our the most important point. Which is the reason why they are immigrating to Chile.

Another common immigration country is Spain. Palestinian Christians have darker skin, and they attribute the silence towards their abuse by the rest of the Christian world as owing to their dark skin. They move to countries like Chile and Spain because they feel there will be less racism there. I forget which country and city, but a recently elected mayor in South America is a Palestinian Christian. Christians in the Middle East are now being treated the way Jews were treated in Europe.

Nov 15, 2009 - 1:15 am 2. rob:

hmm, the palestinian christians didn’t want to see the israelis leave bethlehem. seems that “brutal” occupation isn’t really so “brutal” after all.

Nov 15, 2009 - 1:23 am 3. Mike2:

Why is this a surprise to anyone. Islam operates on a hatred for “the other”. It is the most xenophobic religion on the face of the earth at this time. The only good news in all this is that at least these poor people have a place to go to and rebuild their lives. The bad news for the Muslims is that when the Palestinian territories are cleared of Christians who will they start killing next. It will have to be each other because they are incapable of living without murder.

Nov 15, 2009 - 4:07 am 4. new utopian:

In case you haven’t heard, see article: Denmark to pay immigrants £12,000 to go home if they ‘can’t or won’t’ assimilate: The Daily Mail – UK

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1226698/Denmark-pay-immigrants-12-000-home-wont-assimilate.html?ITO=1490#ixzz0Ww87sCrI

See, also, France to Pay Immigrants to Return Home – SpiegelOnline

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,484716,00.html

Now, all we have to do is get the UK and the US to do the same, and then get every Jew and Christian out of the “Caliphate,” leaving the Muslims to slaughter each other, as they are wont to do.

Nov 15, 2009 - 6:13 am 5. tdiinva:

Palestinian Christians suffering under Islamic authority? It can’t be. The narrative is that the Jews are the cause of all the world’s troubles in the Middle East/Islamic world. If only the Jews would disappear then peace, harmony and brotherhood would reign in Palestine, Sudan, the Indian subcontinent, Thailand, the Philippines and throughout Africa!

Nov 15, 2009 - 7:13 am 6. moho:

Article 5 of the draft constitution of the Palestinian Authority unequivocally declares: “In the State of Palestine Islam will be the official religion. … Sharia Islamic law will be the primary source of legislation.” Although that same article also “guarantees that monotheistic religions (Christianity and Judaism) will be respected and that the state will provide for freedom of worship,” the best that Christians (Jews do not live under PA control) can expect from the PA is dhimmitude — the discriminatory social and legal status “provided” to the Peoples of the Book.

This is a hilarious. That’s exactly what Israel has, LOL. In any case, I find it interesting that an article about human rights abuses of Christians in which at least two human rights organizations are interviewed, has no actual case reports about human rights abuses by Palestinians to Palestinian Christians. Interesting, indeed. You should have had your druthers to choose from, would have made compelling reading. I imagine the reality is that there is no real level of violence or intimidation against Christians. I lived in Palestine for two years and saw absolutely zero evidence of it. If anything, indiscriminate use of force in Palestine has been a more oppressive factor in the lives of Palestinian Christians. Those missiles and bullets don’t simply pick out Muslims, you nimrod. Palestinian Christians, whatever their opinion about the PA, really do recognize that the military occupying their neighborhoods is the actual danger.

You’re a liar.

Nov 15, 2009 - 7:30 am 7. Mark G:

Moho… If Palestinian Christians aren’t being persecuted, why are their numbers declining? I don’t buy your Noam Chomsky narrative.
You sir, are a Damned Liar.

Nov 15, 2009 - 12:38 pm 8. moho:

Moho… If Palestinian Christians aren’t being persecuted, why are their numbers declining?

Why indeed. You are aware that they Israel occupies their country, are you not? And that they have a lower birth rate than Muslims, right? And that the cities in which they live–Bethlehem, for one–have been under siege relentlessly for nearly a decade. Many Christians are involved in christian based tourism, which has been especially hard hit during the last eight years.

See:
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~db=all?content=10.1080/14742250500220228

In any case, logic would tell you that no matter what Muslims are doing to Christians, nothing could probably be worse than having your town blockaded by soldiers. What kind of idiots would that not occur to?

Nov 15, 2009 - 2:14 pm 9. Dave II:

Moho- “Under seige” is YOUR term for Israeli barricades and checkpoints…I’d say they are “under siege” from murder, robbery, rape, and physical assault and harrassment from the Arab Muslims there.

So, yes, there ARE such things that are WORSE “than having your town blockaded by soldiers”. I doubt very much that the emigration of Palestinian Christians is a result of Israeli such tactics by Israel.

As for the article lacking “documentation”…you don’t have to look far, though I doubt you care to see the truth if it contradicts your mindset.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us_HTaEvDbk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZYrAg0894Y

Nov 15, 2009 - 3:55 pm 10. David W. Lincoln:

moho, you are guilty of fallacious reasoning. You conclude that in your eyes, you are reasonable, therefore anyone who agrees with you in reasonable, and those who do not agree with you are unreasonable.

Well, given what you do not want to see, that all cultures are not equal, you have cheated yourself.

As long as the only approved ways for Muslims to deal with the dar al Harb are these three: conversion, dhimmitude & execution, anything else
is verboten, and therefore undermines the credentials of those who claim to be Muslim.

For in your faux sophistication, you have thrown
Mortimer Adler overboard, in order to play footsie with those who took a softer line with Hitler.

Nov 15, 2009 - 5:14 pm 11. David W. Lincoln:

moho, you are guilty of fallacious reasoning. You conclude that in your eyes, you are reasonable, therefore anyone who agrees with you in reasonable, and those who do not agree with you are unreasonable.

Well, given what you do not want to see, that all cultures are not equal, you have cheated yourself.

As long as the only approved ways for Muslims to deal with the dar al Harb are these three: conversion, dhimmitude & execution, anything else
is verboten, and therefore undermines the credentials of those who claim to be Muslim.

For in your faux sophistication, you have thrown
Mortimer Adler overboard, in order to play footsie with those who took a softer line vis a vie Hitler.

Nov 15, 2009 - 5:14 pm 12. Bozoer Rebbe:

Moho,

So how is it that while Israeli checkpoints somehow prevent the Arab Christians of Bethlehem from being able to make a living, Ramallah, a city that is overwhelmingly Muslim, whose residents also must deal with Israeli checkpoints, is thriving economically?

The Israeli Arab Christians of Nazareth don’t have to suffer the indignities of checkpoints as the residents of the PA do. Why, then, is the Christian population of Nazareth shrinking?

Just as in Bethlehem, the Muslims put pressure on the Christians to leave.

This is a hilarious. That’s exactly what Israel has, LOL.

Exactly? Hardly. Yes, Israel is foundationally a Jewish state. However, unlike the PA law which says ““In the State of Palestine Islam will be the official religion. … Sharia Islamic law will be the primary source of legislation.”” there is no Israeli law that says that Halacha, Jewish law, will be the source, primary or otherwise, of legislation.

Yes, the Knesset sometimes votes on things like “who is a Jew?” but the reality is that the Israeli government is just as likely to violate Jewish law as it is to endorse it.

In the PA, it’s a capital crime to sell land to a Jew, and Palestinians have indeed been executed by the PA for violating that law.

I lived in Palestine for two years and saw absolutely zero evidence of it.

I’ve lived in and around Detroit for my entire life and I’ve never personally witnessed any crime or violence. I guess that means there’s no crime around here.

Those missiles and bullets don’t simply pick out Muslims, you nimrod.

Ironically some of the victims of Hamas and Hezb’allah missiles fired at Israel have been Israeli Arabs.

You’re a liar.

So, Moho, would you be willing to be a dhimmi in the Muslim world? So far not a single Muslim that I’ve asked that question has answered yes.

Ma fish Falastin. Ummat Israil Hiyyah!

Nov 15, 2009 - 6:25 pm 13. Anonymous:

Yes, the poor christians comprising an 80% demographic in the USA are again suffering at the hands of those pesky minorities.

Nov 15, 2009 - 7:28 pm 14. moho:

I doubt very much that the emigration of Palestinian Christians is a result of Israeli such tactics by Israel.

You don’t know what you’re talking about.

Nov 15, 2009 - 8:29 pm 15. moho:

Well, given what you do not want to see, that all cultures are not equal, you have cheated yourself.

I don’t think that all cultures are equal. For example, I don’t know what culture you come from, but if you are not an anomaly produced by it, but the norm, then that culture is probably the lowest I’ve encountered. Generally, there aren’t such marked differences, but in this case, wow…not equal at all…

Nov 15, 2009 - 8:31 pm 16. moho:

Bozoer

Ramallah, a city that is overwhelmingly Muslim, whose residents also must deal with Israeli checkpoints, is thriving economically?

You’ve gotten your wish, someone noticed that you hadn’t put any thought into this. Ramallah is the seat of West Bank government, it is flush with NGO and UAid money, and its businesses thrive as a result of the western level salaries that are spent there. You don’t know what you’re talking about either.

Nov 15, 2009 - 8:33 pm 17. Bozoer Rebbe:

Moho,

You didn’t answer my question if you’d want to be a dhimmi in the Muslim world.

The simple fact is that Israeli Arabs have more freedom and more civil, political and religious rights than religious and ethnic minorities generally have in Muslim and Arab countries. All your blather won’t change that fact. Hell, Israeli Arabs have more rights than many Muslims and Arabs have in Muslim and Arab countries. I haven’t checked lately, but usually about 10-15% of the Knesset are Arabs. How many Jews are there in the PA’s legislative assembly? For the matter, how many Jews are there in any legislatures in any Arab or Muslim countries?

Starting in 1948, three quarters of a million refugees were forced from their homes in the Middle East. No, not the “Palestinians”, I’m talking about Sephardi Jews. Why is it that no Sephardi Jews that I’ve ever met have any desire to move back to the Arab and Muslim countries where their families are from?

Why is it that no Muslim that I’ve asked would want to be a dhimmi.

According to Article 5 of the draft Palestinian constitution (which mentions Christianity and other “monotheistic religions”, apparently because there is something taboo about the word “Jew”) non-Muslim monotheists will have civil rights. The draft guarantees “equality in rights and duties to all citizens irrespective of their religious belief.”

That seeming equality, though, is abrogated (hmmm, where did I hear the word “abrogation” before? – oh right, in the Koran where the earlier pacific and tolerant statements are abrogated by later verses the compel Muslims to subjugate and wage war on non-believers) by Article 7 which subordinates the activities of non-Muslim monotheists to the imperatives of Shariah.

As I said before, Jewish law, Halacha, has no such equivalent status in Israeli secular law. When the Israeli body politic has to confront issues relating to Judaism, it is invariably the subject of heated and contentious debate, not automatic acquiescence to Jewish law or rabbis.

Hell, there have been scores of demonstrations in Jerusalem by non-Zionist strictly orthodox chareidi Jews who feel that the secular Israeli government routinely desecrates the Sabbath and abuses religious Jews. There was just a large demonstration because Intel’s J’lem factory operates on the Jewish sabbath.

Speaking of Jerusalem, you said that Ramallah prospers because it is the seat of the PA gov’t in the West Bank. By that logic, Jerusalem should be Israel’s most prosperous city, as it the capitol of Israel and the seat of the government. Jerusalem, though, is not nearly as prosperous as Tel Aviv, and I believe it also has a higher poverty rate than Haifa, Israel’s third largest city.

Nov 15, 2009 - 10:46 pm 18. Dave II:

Mojo- Did you even view the videos I posted??? I think not.

Those Palestinian Christian’s homes were not burned out by Israelis…

They were not intimidated, harrassed, threatened, and physically brutalized by Israelis…

It’s been Arab Muslims who have made it impossible to live there…

So obviously it’s YOU who doesn’t know what he’s talking about…

(Is that the best you can do for your “arguement”, btw? Pathetic.)

Nov 15, 2009 - 11:13 pm 19. Camo in Turkey:

Even here in Turkey (a secular/democratic country) I can attest that Christians are routinely discriminated against, albeit not as harshly as other Islamic societies. A person here must carry an ID card that states what religion they adhere to, and a Muslim will be hired for a job before any non-Muslim. Most Christians do not report crimes against them, seeing how many of their pastors and priests have been imprisoned by the very same authoities who are supposed to keep the peace. Churches are desecrated on a routine basis, and waits for repair and building permits are measured in years, not weeks or months, like “regular” citizens.
G-d help Christians and Jews in more “adherent” societies of Islam.

Nov 16, 2009 - 3:39 am 20. David W. Lincoln:

moho, do you have the intellectual honesty to look at the work of Mortimer Adler? When you do, get back to me when you are finished going through
his material.

Otherwise, you will continue cheating yourself.

Nov 16, 2009 - 2:23 pm 21. Fantom:

Time to quit wringin’ hands, and time to use that sword Jesus told us to buy.

Onward Christian Soldiers. Satan/jihad awaits.

Nov 16, 2009 - 6:06 pm 22. DavidN:

Moho’s always fun. He is what I refer to as a cherry-picker. He reads through a long article which makes 6 or 7 points in order to come to one conclusion. He then attacks one of those 6 or 7 points, twisting some portion of it so that he can accuse the author of “hypocrisy”, and then dismisses the whole article. Often, he pulls something out of the air that supposedly shows Republicans, conservatives, whichever group he’s despising that day, doing the “same thing”, and then makes the hypocrisy accusation.

So we come to the current discussion. The Palestinian Authority’s jurisdiction is divided into two groups, near as I can see. Fatah is nominally Muslim, increasingly fundamentalist, and hopelessly corrupt. Hamas is much more fanatically Muslim, already fundamentalist, and hopelessly corrupt. Both groups essentially hate anyone who isn’t part of their group, and they tend to enforce all their laws with a few bursts from an AK-47. Israel, for all its faults (and it has a few, no question) doesn’t usually settle disputes with gunfire. While Israel has had corruption scandals, it’s not on the level of the PA. Israeli Arabs don’t serve in the Israeli army (unless they volunteer; oddly, by Moho’s lights, some do, choosing the Jews rather than a benevolent Muslim government).

Moho, if this were the 30s, would be pointing out that Hitler wasn’t that bad, because most American country clubs wouldn’t allow Jews to be members. That would have proven we were as bad as the Nazis, and I’m sure he thinks we’re as guilty of the results as they are. Unfortunately for him, some of the rest of us can think, reason, and use sound judgment.

Nov 16, 2009 - 8:55 pm 23. Claudia:

Some one has to counter the Franciscans that run all of the Christian schools and churches in Bethlehem. They seem to be putting all the blame for the Christians leaving on the Israeli’s and checkpoints! Next trip over I intend to take on Father Vasko and learn how on earth he comes up with what he puts out. Of course, what else can they say… he has to negotiate the PA every day. Still, it is discouraging to have the Catholics saying one thing and the Evangelicals another. The ICEJ works well with Israel and it too is criticized by the Catholics. Still, the Franciscans have done a wonderful job in maintaining Christian sites in Israel, and all Christians appreciate that.

Nov 17, 2009 - 2:27 pm 24. Lifeofthemind:

The sad thing about the plight of Bethlehem is that it was an accident. In 1967 when Israel conquered the West Bank and annexed East Jerusalem they intended to include the neighboring Bethlehem district. Do to a clerical oversight it was left out of the document that was forwarded to the Knesset. Moshe Dayan was appalled but the critical moment passed. For a brief time it looked like King Hussein would negotiate a Peace Treaty to get Bethlehem and the tourist revenue back. Israel was willing to cut that deal, so it held back on pressing the issue. By the time Hussein acceded to the rejectionist camp that assigned the West Bank to the previously irrelevant PLO lines had hardened and the Americans would not support any further changes. To ride back in now and claim Bethlehem for Israel would be a bold move that might work. It would mean decisive action also to free the Christians of Lebanon from the threat of Hezbollah. After Israel’s past experiences there they may not want to but as the Iranians push for existential confrontation a pushing of the Rest Button may be in order.

Nov 17, 2009 - 7:08 pm 25. Claudia:

#24 Lifeofthemind: Gosh darn! Is recovering Bethlehem ever even discussed?

Most of us are now hard at work trying to find ways to keep Nazareth from becoming completely Arab,(Not Arab Christian, but Arab Muslim)It is no mystery why Arab Muslims want to dominate in the Galilee, and it is inordinately difficult for Christians to even buy property there. The Israeli gov is no help when they allow Galilee farmland to be purchased by outside Arab groups rather than purchasing it themselves. What is going on there?

Nov 18, 2009 - 7:32 am 26. Chileno:

Both Hamas/Fatah may not actively attack Christians, but they turn a blind eye when fanatical militants do. Thus, they save face in front of their Western benefactors, condemning attacks on Christians. Yet rarely is anyone ever brought to justice for these crimes. Whether harrassment is from official sources or not, the net effect on Christians is the same: they have little guarantees living in Gaza/WB, and may ultimately face one of three choices: convert, leave, or die. Hamas/Fatah need not soil their hands with Christian blood, there are plenty of extremists ready to do the dirty job for them.

The 2 YouTube links posted in #9 above are excellent. Here’s more on the subject:

From Christianity Today:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2007/juneweb-only/125-11.0.html

“Masked gunmen used rocket-propelled grenades to storm the main entrances of the school and church,” [in Gaza, said] Roman Catholic priest Manuel Musalam… “Then they destroyed almost everything inside, including the Cross, the Holy Book, computers and other equipment.” Every cross inside the church and school was destroyed, he said.

…One Christian teenager in Gaza told Catholic News Service, “We all hope it will be better, but it will never ever be good with Hamas.”

…Several Christian institutions in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank have been targeted by masked gunmen over the past few months. Last April, a bookstore run by the Bible Society in the Gaza Strip was bombed… A group calling itself the Huda (Guidance) Army Organization threatened to target all Christians living in the Gaza Strip following remarks against Islam and the Prophet Muhammad that were made last year by Pope Benedict XVI… The group also threatened to attack churches and Christian-owned institutions and homes. “All centers belonging to Crusaders, including churches and institutions, will from now on be targeted,” it said. “We will even attack the Crusaders as they sit intoxicated in their homes.”

From Bloomberg:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&refer=home&sid=aC7P93EMyb1Q

The stone walls of St. Porphyrius church in Gaza were raised in the fourth century, a reminder of Christianity’s long role in the Mediterranean city’s history. The saga may be coming to an end. Christians, a minority of 3,000 among the Gaza Strip’s 1.2 million Muslims, are increasingly menaced by Islamic fundamentalists in this besieged Palestinian territory. Christians say they are on the verge of being driven out.

“Never in Palestinian history did we feel endangered until now,” said Archimandrite Artemios, the Greek Orthodox priest who heads St. Porphyrius. “We face the question of whether we are part of this community or not.”

…While there are few indications Hamas itself is trying to intimidate Christians, the change brought to the surface underground Muslim groups that are actively hostile to Christians, said Hamdi Shaqura, 46, an official with the independent Palestinian Center for Human Rights.

On Feb. 15, arsonists firebombed a library operated by the Young Men’s Christian Association and destroyed 10,000 books, police and YMCA officials said. Last fall, kidnappers killed a Christian bookstore owner and the shop was blown up twice. In August last year, vandals damaged a Catholic church and school…

The Oct. 7 murder of Rami Ayyad, 30, who operated the Palestinian Bible Society Bookstore in Gaza, was the first time that a Christian was killed for religious reason, Artemios said. Five Christian families have fled to the West Bank since, he noted.
Three months before Ayyad’s death, a pair of bearded men warned the bookseller, who was a Baptist, to convert to Islam or die, said his mother, Anisa Boutros Francis, 55.

…“Before, Israel was the only enemy. Palestinians were together,” said Ayyad’s mother. “Now, you don’t know who is who.”

Nov 18, 2009 - 7:48 pm

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