Pajamas Media

The ‘Right-Wing Extremism’ Report and Europeanization

Artificially grafting German political categories onto the American scene.

April 19, 2009 - by John Rosenthal

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Now, in German usage, the expression “right-wing extremism” is, in effect, just a euphemism for the large panoply of neo-Nazi groups and organizations existing in Germany. But what has this to do with the American “right,” extreme or otherwise? The answer, as the DHS report itself unwittingly makes clear, is not much. Thus, in a feeble attempt at defining its object, the DHS report notes:

Rightwing extremism in the United States can be broadly divided into those groups, movements, and adherents that are primarily hate-oriented (based on hatred of particular religious, racial or ethnic groups), and those that are mainly antigovernment, rejecting federal authority in favor of state or local authority, or rejecting government authority entirely.

The DHS does not bother to explain just why “hate” or, for that matter, prejudice should be regarded as a monopoly of the “right.” But it is the second, more obviously ideological, part of the DHS’s “broad” definition that directly concerns us here. For far from being “anti-government,” National Socialism as an ideology always implied big government and the severe limitation of the sphere of individual liberties. The National Socialist state was, as the sociologist Franz Neumann famously described it, a “behemoth,” extending its reach into virtually all areas of social life and economic activity. In exchange for his or her submission to the state, the member of the German “national community” was offered a decent standard of living and a wide assortment of social benefits. In this respect, National Socialism was true to the socialist promise contained in its program and, of course, in its very name. (The socialist aspects of the Nazi state are the subject of a recent book-length study by the German historian Götz Aly. For a discussion, see here. Aly’s volume is available in English with the somewhat uninspired title Hitler’s Beneficiaries.)

National Socialists were never “anti-government.” They were always, however, fervently anti-capitalist and, above all, opposed to specifically financial capital and the world market, which was assumed to be dominated by the latter. In other words, they were much like what are today described as “leftists.” In fact, they were “leftists.” And they still are today, as the eagerness of Germany’s contemporary Nazis to participate in “anti-globalization” protests makes clear. (See, for instance, “Germany’s Other Anti-Globalists: Neo-Nazis Against the G-8.”) This is why the standard use of the expression “right-wing extremist” is highly equivocal even in its original German context. In any case, America’s “anti-government” libertarians, whether extreme or otherwise, are quite obviously the ideological antipodes of National Socialists. To use the same term to subsume both is not only silly; it is a form of slander.

Why the DHS would see fit to graft a German political category upon American political reality is something of a mystery. But that it has done so is further evidence of what might be called the forced “Europeanization” of American politics: a process that has clearly accelerated since the election of Barack Obama as president.

It may or may not be relevant in this connection that one of the German institutions that has been most flamboyant about ostensibly “combating right-wing extremism” is none other than the Bertelsmann Foundation. The foundation has sponsored several projects on the topic, including, most recently, a project on “combating right-wing extremism” throughout Europe [German link]. At the same time, Bertelsmann-owned media in Germany have been stoking the flames of just the sort of anti-capitalist, “anti-finance” hysteria that has always been one of the principal lifesprings of the Nazi movement. (See, for instance, the cover of the Bertelsmann-owned magazine Stern here.) Whether rendered explicit or not, moreover, such hysteria has always gone hand-in-hand with both anti-Americanism and anti-Semitism. (See here, for instance, on a recent episode in Berlin that bears witness to this fact.)

As the parent company of Random House, it is the Bertelsmann Corporation that is the source of the many million dollars of income received by the “author” Barack Obama in recent years. (See my earlier PJM report here.)

Despite this fact, as discussed in detail here, the company foundation has not refrained from offering its counsels to the new president. In 2008, the foundation opened an office in Washington with the express purpose of “contributing … ideas from Europe to the policy debate in DC.”

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John Rosenthal’s writings on European politics and transatlantic relations have appeared in English, French, and German in such leading publications as Policy Review, Les Temps Modernes, and Merkur. He holds a PhD in philosophy and he taught political philosophy and classical German philosophy before turning to journalism. More of his work can be found at Transatlantic Intelligencer.

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115 Comments

1. Delia:

Excellent article, John Rosenthal. The ‘ipso facto bullshit machine’ is in full effect. God bless you, for keepin’ it real.

Will the TRUTH have much impact on the dhimm-tards? Time will tell.

Apr 19, 2009 - 2:20 am 2. Delia:

Two of my best friends growing up were of a different shade of skin than mine. Big whoop.

Am I an ‘extremist’?

You bet your bippy I am!

1. I’m EXTREMELY angry at the overspending our Government is spending ‘moula’ like a skank ho at a Frat party.

2. Our white-American in stupidity er chief has got to stop making ’so sorry’ overtures to people who are EVIL and NOT in our best interest. Hugo Chavez? Are you nucking futz, meester prezzydent.

3. I’m disgusted with the main stream media *cough*. The denial and projection crap is in full force. Ain’t it grand when you only get half or a third or a fourth of the ’story’?

ABC-123

Apr 19, 2009 - 2:39 am 3. David:

I am a Veteran myself, and I find it telling of the state of affairs in the country when the government calls the people responsible for its security likely and potential terrorists. There are no other countries anywhere in the world that would do such a thing. Embarrass their own in front of their own country and the whole world. Take Israel, from the highest levels to the unit commanders, they have staunchly quashed any and all inquiries and questionings of their soldiers involvement into what could arguably be war crimes. These things alone are amazing to see, but they are not likely the depths of the sickness that is seeping through our country everywhere.

Apr 19, 2009 - 3:05 am 4. John B:

Is there any doubt that the loonies have seized control of the country? 2010 can’t come soon enough.

Apr 19, 2009 - 4:24 am 5. don:

That DHS published the monstrosity was one thing, it’s effect beyond what every commentator refers to, something else.

Prior to the present economic conditions transition into civilian careers for many service-members was somewhat problematic, between the compromised transition assistance program the military has and many Service members own limited expectations we had one side of the problem. The other side are the biases that many corporate Human Resource and Operations professionals carry with them into their organizations (whether through academics or institutional). It was before this memo (often) an uphill battle.

With a memo published by DHS (the national authority on present and future threat), disseminated across law enforcement and (now) across the media those biases are no longer just biases, they are opinion backed by subject matter authority. So the impact of this DHS memorandum will be felt across services and across industries. For the already biased it cements their feelings with “proofs”. For those uncorrupted by biases it will instill doubt. Doubt’s in the ability of combat vets (and vets in general) to seamlessly add themselves to a productive workforce, doubts in the safety of workforces that have (or could have) transitioned veterans amongst them.

This memo makes a difficult situation (in normal times) much more difficult, with such aspersions being cast it will be often impossible to overcome the doubts (and fears instilled) in many minds.

Apr 19, 2009 - 6:26 am 6. Stephen:

The question is whether this administration is a bunch of hapless neophytes or a more sinister assemblage of lefties who are determined to polorize our nation, turning their perceived majorities into permanent voting blocks for left wing extremist ideologies.

Apr 19, 2009 - 6:35 am 7. vb:

Not only is the term right wing extremism being imported into the US, it is also being used by our own leftists back in Europe to color the European opinion of normal American conservatives. The Bush/Hitler label was a message to Europeans not to listen to anything he said.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:04 am 8. Old Airman 2000:

I was never a fan of the establishment of the Department of Homeland Security. As a pessimist, I believe it will morph into something more sinister. I hope I am not around when it does.

I am wondering if the release of the document was a shot across the bow of what seems to be a growing, grassroots disaffection with the spending policies and programs of the new administration. A sort of preemptive strike, if you will, to cool the fires of opposition.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:06 am 9. Morton Doodslag:

Once a reader of far far left European media realizes that the label/libel of “right wing extremist” might sometimes be affixed to someone as liberal (by American standards) as Independent Sen. Joseph Lieberman, the dishonesty and radicalism of such terminology is obvious. It is designed to marginalize and defame. It is designed to muzzle and degrade. Such terminology in the hands of “liberal” fascists is deliberately used to destroy their opposition.

See how the radical Obama wants to make friends with our mortal enemies and detractors on the world stage, while targeting anti-fascists in America, and label them “extremist”.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:23 am 10. shawn:

Excellent article. You actually back up what you are saying. On the contrary, this substance is conspicuous by absence in the bogus “REPORT” from our Abteilung der Propaganda .

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:23 am 11. Jack:

Well, I don’t see it as saying that our vets are potential terrorists as much as I see it as potential (domestic) terrorists are hoping to leverage the sorry state of affairs regarding the way we treat our vets to see if they can recruit them to their cause.

But that said, I’ve seen enough posts on PJM (for example) from people who are clearly clinging to their guns (grin) who I’d be a little concerned about. There is a thinly veiled undertone from some posters who are talking about rising up violently and “tell me where to sign” when others bring it up. Certainly few and far between relative to other posters, but that’s why they are called extremists.

I think any indication of such behavior by a person is unpatriotic at best and worthy of investigation for criminal activity at worst. Which points me back to the extremely unpatriotic tone struck in Texas during their tea party. Words mean things, and to threaten to “quit” the country is hard for me to respect.

But yet I digressed…

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:03 am 12. Thomas:

About right wing extremism

During our discussions I disclosed several times that I was Eastern European at birth thus well exposed to all variants of the Bolshevik rule behind the I. Curtain and their vocabulary.
What is currently unfolding in this nation is the redux of the 1917 Russian Bolshevik takeover: all the more so because almost all the chief protagonists are ethically related to Kaganovich and Trocky.

These peoples have 70 years of uninterrupted practice in terrorizing the population and don’t even dream that you can remove them by archaic terms like “democracy” “Constitution” “Rule of Law” etc. Americans were never hit by the harsh torrent of History that existed beyond the two Ocean; this time the blow will severe.

These terms are creations of the bourgeoisie, class enemy, clerical reactionary, class aliens, enemy of the people….etc. — and will be replaced by man made disaster, right wing extremist, home grown terrorist etc.

They will purge everybody in the public sphere they deem disobedient (Stalin’s purges) and will build a rock solid enforcer apparatus which will mercilessly crush your well intentioned but naive protest.
They can mobilize overnight the “Proletariat” which account for millions of leftist, minorities, illegals, the Soros-Madoff financier group and you will be silenced for good.
The Hundred million death that their co-ideologues committed though the world was not enough warning for most of us: now it behooves you to harvest the poison.
The Magic N. is unstoppable.

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:10 am 13. Jack:

I love the anger at the term extremist while lobbing continued volleys of facism and socialism at the other side. All of the name-calling gets a bit old and I don’t see how it will get us anywhere. But many republicans/conservatives have made it clear they don’t want to work with the democrats and govern from the middle so maybe I’m talking to deaf ears.

But that brings us back to the Tea Parties which more than anything else was the start of an attempt for the Right to define themselves again. I’ll be curious to see how it turns out, but if the result is to stick with the “extremist” name-calling, I don’t expect you all to have much more success than you’ve had lately. Come up with a policy, cut the bomb-throwing (look at it as taking the high road if you like) and maybe you’ll find support from some of those on the other side who have to vote Dem because there aren’t any good options on the fiscal conservative right.

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:12 am 14. fear Obama:

Obamamasturbannführer and his Gruppenführer Secretary Janet Napolitano (D) Home Land Security now say that we veterans will be recruited by the right wing extremists and Neo-Nazis-

I only know how to kill North Vietnamese but the FBI is watching me.

From my generation-

UP YOURS!

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:43 am 15. Elizabeth:

http://michaelsavage.wnd.com/

Has anyone seen Michael Savage’s lawsuit against Napalitano? Here is the link. You can listen easily to prior radio broadcasts from last week on San Franscisco’s KNEW website.

Great article! And we can’t stop with the tea parties.

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:48 am 16. George Bruce:

Your article is excellent, but the main point is much simpler. There is no mystery to their motives and tactics. It is true that in a population of 300 million there are certainly a few nutters and kooks. Those folks do bear watching, especially if they are linked to any actual criminal activity. However, tens of millions of law abiding Americans have reasonable disagreements with Obamanista/socialist policies regarding government control of the economy, taxation, deficit spending, foreign policy and social issues. The efforts of the Obama administration and its servants in the media to link millions of honest Americans to a handful of Klansmen or Neo-Nazis is nothing more that an attempt to smear and demonize legitimate critics through a false association. The Obama people must know that such an association is totally false. It can only be seen as cynical propaganda to achieve a political goal.

The only question is what is the goal. If it is the intention of the Obama people to criminalize criticism and legitimate opposition, then branding all their opponents as “extremists” is certainly the first step. Once they convince a large enough portion of the general population that all their critics are the moral equivalent of Klansmen and Neo-Nazis, then it will become possible to take further measures to silence the opposition. How much easier will it be to repress conservative talk radio when all criticism of Obamanista policies is dismissed as racist, hateful, extreme and criminal?

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:58 am 17. George Bruce:

Jack, there is one teeny little problem with your argument. The Obama people are socialists. That is objectively true, even though you are attempting yet another stealth change in the definition of the word. On the other hand, the Tea Party people are not Klansmen or Neo-Nazis, no matter how much you wish to portray them as such. Other than that, great post!

Apr 19, 2009 - 9:05 am 18. Jack:

#16 George – Doing something a socialist does (or a nazi, racist, conservative, liberal, capitalist, etc) doesn’t make you a socialist. That he is more socialist than say Bush doesn’t make him a socialist, it simply means his policies are more in that direction than his predecessor. The difference is that he doesn’t want a single class, he instead wants to remove some of the benefits that were given to the wealthy. Closing tax loopholes for example doesn’t disadvantage the wealthy, it just puts them at parity. But some call that socialism. Regardless, speaking in far-flung generalities like that will make you, in general, wrong. Even if Obama were a card-carrying socialist, that doesn’t mean everyone who voted for him is…it means that the Republican party is so out of line with the majority of Americans that we would rather be socialist than what you guys were putting out there (note I’m not saying he is socialist, but if you honestly believe what you said, I think some self-reflection about the mind-set of the rest of America in relation to what you are trying to sell is in order).

If you, and the other like-minded folks, want to write off the entire Democratic party because we are all pinko-socialist-extremists, then that’s your choice, however it isn’t going to help you meet your objectives and it is going to invite the retaliatory (and arguably defensive) response of “facists” and “extremists”.

And I don’t recall portraying Tea Party folks as racists or nazi’s, but if that was what you were trying to say, then that might be another example of you (and others) seeing what you want, and taking it to an absurd extreme (i.e. extremist behavior). If that wasn’t what you were implying, I wonder why you went there in the first place.

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 9:35 am 19. Jack:

Sorry, that last post was for #17 George, not #16 George. But that said, part of what I said was applicable. And I think even intimating that Obama might want to “criminalize” opposition is extreme in and of itself. I know I may be alone in this, but I doubt Obama’s stated goal is to destroy the country.

I thought most of what Bush did was wrong and ill-fated, but I never questioned his motives…he did what he thought was right for the country. I wonder if anyone here is even-handed enough to say the same is probably true of Obama…

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 9:40 am 20. Buck Smith:

DHS has a report about right wing extremist and the threat of veterans. Is there any report about Mulsim and Islamic estremists in the US and the threat they pose?

Apr 19, 2009 - 11:14 am 21. venividivici:

Thomas:

About right wing extremism

During our discussions I disclosed several times that I was Eastern European at birth thus well exposed to all variants of the Bolshevik rule behind the I. Curtain and their vocabulary.
What is currently unfolding in this nation is the redux of the 1917 Russian Bolshevik takeover: all the more so because almost all the chief protagonists are ethically related to Kaganovich and Trocky.

I agree, Thomas. Many Americans are ignorant of what real politics in the European sense are, having been geographically isolated from it, as well as having historically been a growing nation, which tends to dampen political conflict.

Apr 19, 2009 - 11:20 am 22. venividivici:

#13

But many republicans/conservatives have made it clear they don’t want to work with the democrats and govern from the middle so maybe I’m talking to deaf ears.

One of the reasons I have no desire to “work with the democrats” is their polluting of phrases like “govern from the middle”. I suppose there is a universe in which Obama’s actions and proposed actions are in the middle politically, but it isn’t this one, at least not on the fiscal side.

Apr 19, 2009 - 11:23 am 23. Delia:

There was ONE whole arrest in the entire ‘tea party’ movement. ONE arrest out of a nationwide, grassroots protest.

Extremists huh? I don’t sphinct so. Homey don’t play dat. The tea parties were so damned PEACEFUL that people are comparing them to freakin’ picnics/parades/backyard barbecues.

Nice try, Leftards. You just can’t stand it when you’re so WRONG about people.

Apr 19, 2009 - 11:29 am 24. Middleman:

I think when they speak of Right Wing Extremists, they are referring more to people such as the dead neo-nazi in Maine that was found with dirty bomb material, rather than tea party attendees.
In the Turner Diaries white nationalists use a nuclear device on Washington DC to hasten the establishment of a white nation. Considering we now have a black president, and the degree of venom being spat at him, I think Homeland Security isn’t entirely out of line.

Apr 19, 2009 - 11:48 am 25. Rubicon:

Isn’t it a tad ironic that DHS has issued a report on “right-wing extremists” & they use the term “terrorist” to describe the activities of such groups, w/ little or no substantiation,
yet our government does not want to refer to actual terrorists threatening this nation & who have actually attacked this nation among others,
as “terrorists?”
Once the report used the issues of illegal aliens (they call it immigration), our first black president – when he is in fact a mixed race person of both black and white ancestry – or the issue of smaller government & lower taxes, it became obvious this report was deliberately designed to provide the left w/ fodder to use or refer to, to throw mud at any who may offer any opposition to the current administrations policies & actions.
If this report had described or referred to “extremists” in general, regardless of the “side,” it could have been taken seriously. As it is, it is a total political fabrication tool, and by issuing it especially at this time of national turmoil, the deliberate purpose was to pile on “data” (sic) attempting to discredit
anyone who stands in the way of the draconian changes to America currently proposed.
By not providing almost any substantiation to justify this report, and by refusing to divulge the sources that precipitated this report, its purpose is once again obvious. Attack those who oppose administration policy & here’s the report you can refer to to justify your attacks on them, even though the reports objectivity & substance is vacuous, if that!

Apr 19, 2009 - 12:18 pm 26. Dan S:

Buck Smith,

Yes, the leftwing extremists they (DHS) report on are mostly hackers according to FBI friends. I found it strange no mention was made of ELF, ALF or other eco-terrorist groups which the FBI has collected information on. Nor are Muslim groups cited. Very strange.

These same FBI friends pointed to an FBI report in 2008 which concentrated on rightwing groups and their propensity for targeting veterans as recruits. I find this an acceptable form of information collecting rather than painting the targeted group en mass as pontentially disloyal and violent.

As a libertarian, I guess I would be classified as an extremist because I have been a one-issue (less government) activist. This April 7, 2009 DHS analysis of potential threats seems to be written at an 8th grade level and oversimplifies or completely ignores true threats. The 1950s de-crypts and analysis of the Ethel and Julius Rosenberg case (KGB Venona) seems much more intelligently written.

As far as Middleman’s contention, past FBI reports marginalize white supremacist groups due to their lack of funding in comparison to radical Islamists and eco-terrorists. There has been relatively good FBI infiltration of these racist organizations, too.

Apr 19, 2009 - 12:18 pm 27. Brian Richard Allen:

In modern times the vast criminal enterprises that are “collective-istly” called the “Democratic” potty have morphed (and particularly so since the appearance on the national scene of Nazi Pelosi, Dirty Harry Reid and the moronic mobbed-uo murtadd Muslim Mussolini-modeled modified-Marrxist (ie Fascist) empty galabia, Mr Sa’id Michelle Reverend Wright Bill Ayres Frank Marshall Davis-Obambi) into a poor Xerox copy of the national socialist parties of the last two smooth-talking thugs that rode into their countries’ capitals and proceeded to rape and loot and pillage them — and their every neighbor.

The countries were Italy and Germany.

And the smooth talking national socialist/”liberal” thugs went by the names Mussolini and Hitler.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifO’ZEROcated 90028
And the Far Abroad

Apr 19, 2009 - 12:37 pm 28. Jack:

#22 venividivici – I didn’t say Obama is governing from the middle, although I expect him to move towards the middle as he gets done reversing everything Bush did (from the far right) that the people who elected him expects him to do.

But you mention the fiscal side. As a fiscal conservative I’d love to vote for a Republican fiscal conservative, but there isn’t such a thing as long as the religious right keep running things. And the talk of fascisim/socialism being levied at all democrats isn’t exactly endearing us to the fiscal conservatives either since they aren’t bold enough to disavow that speech.

And that was my point about being in the middle. The folks here are so busy labeling everyone ‘tards’ (very sensitive, btw) and fascists they are not indicating they want our support for things like tea parties. Pure and simple, I’m not going to go to a Tea Party and support people who can’t separate fiscal from social from extremism and are going to spend their time calling me names even though I agree with them on the point they were supposedly trying to make.

Peaceful as in non-violent yes, peaceful as in wanting to come together to solve the economic problems, not so much.

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 1:26 pm 29. RightwingHippyChick:

‘Kampf gegen Rechts’ in Germany is a huge organisation which employs many people (think ACORN on steroids)

Basically this is a convenient dogwhistle to scare the horses into silence.

There are almost no nazis left in Germany, the real deal are dead and the current group of wanna-bes that poses as the ever-yesterday Nationalists in the NPD is so riddled with secret service agents that the German government cannot risk taking them to court to close them down for good for fear of serially blowing covers.

Take careful note of how this game is played in Germany, and expect the same German Nazi-baseballbat to be whacked over your heads to exactly those rules.

Happy ducking.

Apr 19, 2009 - 2:18 pm 30. Tonya:

Good article, and I agree.

What can be expected from a Government that now has Czar’s? What is next from all of his Czar’s?

Apr 19, 2009 - 2:56 pm 31. jerryofva:

Jack:

Can you tell me some of the “right wing” extremist policies that Bush had. Was it his prescrition drug plan? His “No Child left behind” act? Obama seems to be copting and expanding on his counter-terrorism surveillance programs and although he has childishly renamed the GWOT related security policies he maintains them intact. He certainly hasn’t impressed foreign governments with his acumen. They all think he is stupid, arrogant amd weak. They neither fear or respect him. So tell me what he is reversing.

Apr 19, 2009 - 3:01 pm 32. Hyphenated American:

The whole thing is a tad strange. On one side, we know that Islam is religion of peace, and that America owes a lot to Islam, and that “Moslem terrorism” is a term which the DHS cannot use because of fear to insult the moslems.
In fact, the terms “terrorism” and “terrorist” are now whitewashed from the official documents.
Well, I wonder then why the Obama regime feels it necessary to demonize all theright-wingers? After all, American owes much more to the right-wingers than to Hindus and Moslems put together. So, why the disrespect?

Is it simply because Obama is a socialist thug, and he is used to attacking his political opponents? should we assume that Obama feels himself much closer to the oppressive moslem regimes than the American right-wing patriots?

Apr 19, 2009 - 3:27 pm 33. George Bruce:

That’s pure Orwell, Jack. Total double speech. Peaceful is violent. Opposition to socialism is extremism. Obama isn’t a socialist, he just quacks like one. Confiscated wealth does no harm to the victims. Making everybody “equal” makes every equal, except for the party chiefs. Four legs good, two legs better.

Just for the record, I never said Obama’s stated intention was to destroy the Nation. His policies will certainly tend to do that, but his actual intentions are a mystery to me, as are yours.

Apr 19, 2009 - 3:47 pm 34. venividivici:

Jack,

As a fiscal conservative I’d love to vote for a Republican fiscal conservative, but there isn’t such a thing as long as the religious right keep running things.

I don’t necessarily see a connection between the two aspects of a person’s political views. I think one can be fiscally conservative and religious. Whether or not actual candidates with those views show up is another question, as well as how well those candidates perform in actual elections.

While I recognize that it has long been a fault-line in the GOP’s electorate, even someone who doesn’t like the social conservative aspects of the GOP platform, and is purely attracted to the fiscal side, would have to admit that the fiscal aspects of Obama’s actions to-date ALONE require that fiscal conservatives stand alongside people they might not otherwise stand alongside in order to push back on this agenda, and the Republicans who support it.

The spending and debt are so egregious that, if I were to make an analogy to something on the social issues side, I would say it’s like Obama not only legalizing gay marriage, but outlawing straight marriage.

$483,000 in debt per household and this is before Obama’s $10 trillion in additional debt.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2009/04/david-walker-why-.html

Scroll down a bit for the 2010-2019 estimated deficit:

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/100xx/doc10014/Chapter1.5.1.shtml#1095071

Quite frankly, if to avoid that crushing debt burden, I need to stand alongside people who don’t support some of the social stands I support, so be it. The world isn’t perfect and we all have to make tradeoffs in life.

Apr 19, 2009 - 3:51 pm 35. Jack:

#31 Jerryofva – Did I say Bush was right wing extremist? I thought I said right wing. But as to what policies Obama is reversing, I’m talking stem cell research specifically as an example…the social changes are clear I would think (just listen to the social conservatives if you want to know more of what has been reversed).

Also, leaving Iraq. I’ll note that Bush signed a deal saying that he would remove all troops about a year after Obama will (he signed it a bit late) but I’ll be glad to bring this back up when Iraq turns back into a cess pool. Bush was going to leave too…a happy similarity none of you will remember the next time something bad happens over there. You’ll blame Obama for leaving. Nice how it works both ways.

#33 George Bruce – The ‘peaceful’ point was for Delia (#23, sorry I didn’t aim that better) as she brought that up as some indicator of ‘rightness’. So I’ll give you a chance to retort based on that before I go on. My point was some of you are so busy calling us names you don’t care to understand whether we agree with you on some things. ‘You’ want 100% agreement or nothing at all. If that is your viewpoint, well, you’ll lose like every other single issue voter. And read my next response to…

#34 venividivici – I completely agree on the first part. Had I any confidence in the so-called fiscal conservatives the repulicans put up I would have probably gone that way, but they ended up with a hybrid fence-sitter who said he didn’t know economics. I’d like some party to put up a candidate who says they’ll focus on the economy and not be a shill to one social side or the other (oh, and have it be believable). The problem is that while I’d like to support the right (fiscally), they insist on calling the left fascists and socialists, which they aren’t (as much as they’d like us to be). They pick one thing and get it stuck in their craw and will never let go. If I thought they were willing to compromise on ANYTHING I’d talk to them, but a casual read of this blog shows that they aren’t.

My attempts to bring them to being fiscal conservatives and to work with us fiscal conservative dems has only been met with rebukes and calls of my facisim and socialism. Totally unfounded mind you (none of them have ever asked about my fiscal opinions…) and so we go on and on.

I condemn what Obama has done (fiscally) but no one here cares. They want to demonize me because I am for gay marriage and because I don’t think Obama is facist or socialist. For the Tea Party supporters, I would be with you if you hadn’t degraded it into absurdity and conspiracy theories (i.e. the ‘right wing conspiracy’ that you so despise) because you don’t want to (or are unwilling to) realize that you are doing the exact same thing.

Either way, the social agenda over here will win and you can decide to dump that social ballast over there on the right and join us in solving the economic situation (which is currently anti-Obama) or you can keep the same rhetoric that has gotten you nowhere socially and still lose the economic argument. It’s up to you.

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 5:20 pm 36. Jack:

I should point out that in my intent to be expedient I mentioned gay “marriage”. I don’t care whether is is marriage or laws that equate to the same benefits as marriage regardless of what it is called. I want those couples to be able to take care of their kids and families like the rest of us can…’marriage’ isn’t necessary for that.

Sorry for the second note, but I didn’t want to distract things by bringing up gay ‘marriage’.

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 5:23 pm 37. steveg:

The christian right has been completely marginalized. In the last 3+ decades the degenerate left has controlled our culture through the Bohemian Cult Triangle of Hollywood, academia and the entrenched media. In just three short decades they have managed to mainstream the following:

1)Gay Marriage
2)Hard-core pornography
3)Political Correctness on Steroids
4)Gangster Rappers who advocate killing cops
5)Extreme Environmentalism where no dissent is allowed
6)Abortions at any stage
7)Attack Free Market Capitalism (Walmart,etc.)
8)Bigotry toward Christians
9)Rewarding Bad Behavior
10)The Cult of Celebrity (BHO)

As you can see the left has added greatly to the American culture in the last few decades. We should all be proud.

Apr 19, 2009 - 6:05 pm 38. venividivici:

Well, Jack I hope you don’t mind paying that extra $180K in taxes over your lifetime so that gay people can get married. If I were you, I’m not sure I’d bring a gift to those weddings. You can say “I already gave on April 15th”. Forest and trees, my man. Forest and trees.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:05 pm 39. fred:

What else can one expect of the coterie of Marxist swine who now infest our government? I was not at all surprised by this Homeland Security report, at least not its contents. The timing was very bold. This is what happens when you have people who are extremely cunning, yet very stupid.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:08 pm 40. Meryl:

37steveg…but the Christians sure are dangerous (in obamaworld) aren’t they?

It appears that he and his just plain don’t want anyone, anywhere, for any reason, standing up in opposition to anything he says about anything.

Now THAT is dangerous.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:43 pm 41. Middleman:

Dan S,
Certainly white supremacist groups seem to implode on a consistent basis due to in-fighting, informers, and egos, however there are a lot of white supremacist who now follow the Lone Wolf idea. The guy in Maine with the dirty bomb material was only discovered because he was killed by his wife. He didn’t have any real connections to any major group.

Apr 19, 2009 - 7:56 pm 42. Jack:

#37 Steveg:
1) Hooray, we want to include those who most want marriage!!
2) Hooray, we have realized that right wing evanelists like it too!!
3) Hooray, you have labeled all opposers socialists (irony intended)
4) Hooray, you have identified fringe types as your own types!
5) Hooray, you have dissented against that which you said couldn’t be dissented against!
6) Hooray, you are right…But you will ignore me because you disagree with me on other issues!
7) Hooray, you don’t like capitalism…or do you…um, I’m confused….
Hooray, you have no point…seriously…what???
9) Hooray, vagaries are easy to say!!! Um, what??
10) Hooray, um…welll…um…

Jack

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:16 pm 43. Dave Surls:

‘The DHS does not bother to explain just why “hate” or, for that matter, prejudice should be regarded as a monopoly of the “right.”’

Especially in view of the facts that it was the more left wing of our two viable political parties that defended slavery and instituted Jim Crow.

Apr 19, 2009 - 8:22 pm 44. ajacksonian:

When DHS comes out and points continually to Tim McVeigh and then does no additional work to go beyond his immediate contacts, I know something is wrong… and that started out before DHS was ever made. The bureaucracy of the federal government was uninterested in the support network and wanted to affix blame immediately. To point to that is a failure in investigative work, not pointing to a ‘problem’ that is deep-seated in the US. But even if that is the right place to affix it, then that is in a long line of single ‘lone wolf’ killers and would-be assassins from Lee Harvey Oswald to Eric Rudolph, a group that has a mostly leftist bent, but does include a very few right extremists. The analysis that these ‘lone wolf’ attacks are particularly a thing of the right is bogus. The American culture can generate these individuals, but they are a rarity: they are just what their title implies – lone wolf.

By and large we do not see fiscal conservatives ranting at the G-20: that is a venue for the left. That includes followers of the Neo-German Worker’s Party… NSDAP… that we call Nazi. Those with misgivings on the capitalist side try to work within the rule of law to ensure that the Law of Nations is upheld and that such agreements do not abridge our National sovereignty which would put our liberty at peril. That is a multi-step process, however, and feedback to such larger concepts from those that are capitalist and nationalist abide by the rule of law, not the shout of the mob.

Indeed there are social conservative movements that have gotten ‘lone wolf’ style killers. They are not representative of those movements, they disgust those movements by taking life wantonly, and the attempt to attach that tag to them is ill-placed. Just as those on the left have had to try and deal with their radicalized elements… save that their killers are not repudiated, put on some amoral spectrum and then ‘rehabilitated’ by the press. That gives longer term sanction to those activities, radicalizes them and devalues human life based on political association. That is also applied to the Nation State level for leaders of tyrannical and despotic communist regimes or political parties having a flamboyant figurehead and a group of killers to back him. That process works for Bill Ayers, Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro rather well. And yet it is the Castro regime that worked with the Weathermen and who had some problems actually castigating Saddam especially during his bloody rise to power.

Those who are fiscal conservative, traditional Nationalists (not the socialist type but the ‘every country is a reflection of its population’ type) and wishing to get the federal government out of ANY decision in the bedroom, plus get rid of the burdensome regulations that intrude deeply into our daily lives… these are by and large peaceful, law abiding, not taken to going on rampages, and taxpayers. They are also the ones who believe that liberty should be passed on unabridged by our generation to the next, and that the burdens placed upon the next should be few as we must take care of ourselves and our own fiscal house to ensure that the blessings of liberty are not burdened with our spendthrift ways.

Personal liberty, small and accountable government, government that keeps out of our daily lives and serves its function to protect us in a hostile world… those were once radical ideas. That they have become radical, again, demonstrates a lot about what has happened over the last century due to the Progressive movement starting with Theodore Roosevelt. No matter how ‘good’ the intention, the outcome is awful. And I have little good to say about the people in both parties who have enabled this decade on decade. I have had it with government doing ‘good’ and want it to treat people fairly, equally, and not dictate my morals to me from swamp of DC. I start no fights. Do not bring one to me.

Apr 20, 2009 - 4:19 am 45. jerryofva:

Jack:

Maybe you missed it but during the past 8 years Bush was vindicatated on hESC when scientists found/developed alternatives to hESC which by the way has produced zero results despite recieving billions of dollars of public monies under both Federal and state funding.

Obama’s Iraq policy = Bush’s Iraq policy. Enough said.

Apr 20, 2009 - 5:35 am 46. steveg:

The left wants to run the country like they run a college campus. I suggest you watch ‘Indoctrinate U’ to see what that would be like.

It took my son 10 years to realize his mind had been poisoned by stalinist professors. Many never learn.

Apr 20, 2009 - 6:25 am 47. steveg:

Right- wing terrorist are put to death which is good for our country. Left-wing terrorist become college professors which is bad for our country. And the result is a generation of dopey indoctrinated koz kids.

Apr 20, 2009 - 6:31 am 48. Jack:

#45 jerryofva – You are clearly only referring to the scientists who agree with your viewpoint (who are in the minority, by the way). Time will tell.

I’d argue about Iraq, but it’s going to be much more fun having the right have to own what happens in Iraq. They’ll try to blame it on Obama, but since Bush started it, fought it, and according to you ended it, the chain of evidence should be quite clear in the future.

Just like when the Taliban takes control of Pakistan in a few months.

Jack

Apr 20, 2009 - 6:42 am 49. jerryofva:

Jack:

Your view of science is like Obama’s. It’s clear you don’t know much. nESC treatments are here today with stem cells from umbilical cords and amionic fluid close behind. You can produce pluripotent stem cells from human skin cells without the need to match doner and recipient DNA. hESC would be dead without government money to keep it going. No biotech firm is willing to risk their own money on the iffy change that hESCs will pan out to a significant degree.

I bet you believe in catastropic global warming as well.

Apr 20, 2009 - 8:15 am 50. deguello:

This is not a report;it’s a prematurely released outline of a campaign of marginalization and repression,aimed at turning the USA into Venezuela.We should demand this filthy bitch’s head on a platter,even as we organize effective political resistance(beyond tea parties) to the totalitarian left.Oh, and where is the Republican party?

Apr 20, 2009 - 8:34 am 51. deguello:

11JACK: Nice try denying that the report seeks to marginalize both conservatives,and patriotic servicenen.Your attacks on tea parties, show that you essentially share The libtard bitch’s hatred of conservatives.Liberals had their “Tea Party” it’s called the sixties;bomb throwing, riots(remember Watts Chicago),Trashing and taking over campuses, pc speech code repression,and denying tenure to conservatives,seems to have worked for the libtards:they now control the country. It’s time for a little compensatory civil disobedience of our own.That’s what you liberals fear,and with good reason!

Apr 20, 2009 - 8:47 am 52. steveg:

The American Left is out of control. Another example is last nights Miss USA contest. Miss California was well ahead in scoring and a judge who is most likely a gay activist asked her about her thoughts on extending gay marriage to all states. She believed that marriage should be between a man and a woman and you could see from his expression that he was upset with her answer. Needless to say she did not win the crown. I have just learned that the gay activist judge (Perez Hilton) went on youtube ranting about her answer and calling her a dumb b_tch….The left has infiltrated ever aspect of American life.

Apr 20, 2009 - 9:00 am 53. Jack:

#49 jerryofva – You’ve assimilated that which you agree with and that’s fine, but clearly it isn’t the whole story. I’m not going to try to convince you of the other side (like how the funding decisions are more impacted by the potential for the government to change their minds again than by the viability of those lines). Again, time will tell.

As to global warming, that’s the problem with you people. You disagree with someone on one thing and you call them fascists and automatically assume every other view they have is wrong too. This is why you are being called extremists…it’s the chronic over-reactionism.

#51 deguello – As long as you continue to fly off the handle whenever someone disagrees with you (calling them ‘tards’ and bitches for example) then the liberals probably have nothing to fear from you. I imagine they see the professional and influential manner in which you dialog on important topics and see that no one is going to take you seriously. I know I didn’t.

Jack

Apr 20, 2009 - 11:06 am 54. ChipD:

I am sure that all the posters who are outraged by the DHS report are even more pleased knowing that due to the Patriot Act, and numerous policies put in place by the Bush Admin., Obama can now legally wiretap your phone without a warrant, search your bank records and library records without a warrant, throw you in prison without charges or trial, and keep you there forever.

Legally.

Maybe now, at long last, the conservatives and libertarians can join together to protest the massive encroachment of power given to our government in the “GWOT”.

Apr 20, 2009 - 11:55 am 55. jerryofva:

Jack:

You seem to be projecting a bit here. I never used the “F” word in any response to your posts.

I find it interesting that you don’t actually provide any examples on “success” in hESC.

Apr 20, 2009 - 12:42 pm 56. Michael B:

“… far from being “anti-government,” National Socialism as an ideology always implied big government and the severe limitation of the sphere of individual liberties. The National Socialist state was, as the sociologist Franz Neumann famously described it, a “behemoth,” extending its reach into virtually all areas of social life and economic activity.”

Truer, more timely words are not likely to be found. A well considered, scholarly and accessible exploration of the socialist foundations of the Nazi state:

The Context of Nazism

Four and five page-clicks down some tell-tale iconography serves to summarize a great deal, though the entirety is well worth a thoughtful read.

Apr 20, 2009 - 1:15 pm 57. Silver Fox:

A shot across our bow indeed. Scare us and turn “responsible citizens”, “right thinking” citizens against us or at least view us with suspicion. Divide and conquer. It’s awesome to experience, to an escalating degree, what our founding fathers felt. Let’s pray we have the same courage and wisdom.

Apr 20, 2009 - 1:26 pm 58. Jack:

#55 Jerryofva – I wasn’t projecting, I was generalizing…’you people’. Because you did the typical over-reaction/impulse of disagreeing with me on one thing and therefore baselessly assuming that I must also be an environmental nut job/chicken little too! THAT, my friend, is projecting.

And I didn’t provide any examples of success in hESC because it’s relatively new science (less than 10 years with even federal funding and even that with 1-hand tied behind their back) and now that they will have access to other lines they will be able to start exploring how to resequence the cells to grow them into other differentiated cell types so they can put them to the test clinically. But regardless, you will continue to believe what you want, and for the third time, time will tell. Perhaps Geron will have some success in a few years…I’m not arrogant enough to say definitively they won’t. Are you?

And besides, this all got started because I said that Obama reversed Bush, which has absolutely nothing to do with one particular kind of approach with embryonic cells be they neural or otherwise. And while I’m sure it would be exciting for everyone else here to read, I’m not sure discussing whether nESC’s are actually pluripotent or just multipotent is really the point of this thread…

Besides, I’m sure there will be another thread on stem cells soon enough…even though no scientists will use the type of cells that the Right objects to because no one in the world thinks there is any possible benefit in it as you claim…

Why are we still talking about this?

Jack

Apr 20, 2009 - 1:47 pm 59. RandyChandler:

The dead elephant in the room nobody wants to mention: Obamacracy is attempting to lay the groundwork for a Stalinesque purge, using such things as this bogus DHS report as pretext.

Apr 20, 2009 - 1:59 pm 60. typos_R_us:

Maybe the DHS has been channeling Hill-de-beast and her VRWC (Vast Right Wing Conspiracy).
I am predicting a civil war here in America. Note I said ‘predicting’ NOT advocating. Does that make me a Right Wing Extremist? Next time I order business cards, maybe I should have a VRWC party number put on.
What the moonbats haven’t figured out yet is that they are the nuts with the wheel in their hands. If the ship of state gets run aground, they own it. When the civil works projects end and unemployment shoots over 15%, they own. When the useless trillions America doesn’t have are thrown away by Congress and inflation rears it’s ugly head, they own it. When a terrorist group sets off a nuke here in the states, they own it.
The Usurper will try to blame it all on Bush, but that will only fool the fools, which are already in his camp. The Usurper won 52.87% of a clouded vote.

http://www.mlive.com/us-politics/index.ssf/2008/11/that_huge_voter_turnout_didnt.html

“Between 60.7 percent and 61.7 percent of the 208.3 million eligible voters cast ballots this year, compared with 60.6 percent of those eligible in 2004, according to a voting analysis by American University political scientist Curtis Gans, an authority on voter turnout.”

53% (rounding uo) of 61% is around 32%. So 7 out of 10 voters DIDN’T vote for the alleged Hawaiian. After trashing the economy, sucking up to tyrants and bowing to kings, quite a few of those 7 will show up in 2010.
I tell them when ever I can, that it’s their fault for not voting. McCain is a putz, but at least he has testicles and is a ‘natural born American citizen’.
Once Axelrod sees the march polls for the mid-terms, he will freak. That is when the left has to cancel the elections to have any chance of holding on to power. That is when the fecal matter hits the air circulation device.
The Democrats loose Congress and the Usurper get impeached.
That mean every piece of legislation he signed is null and void, since the Usurper had no legal authority to sign it. Decades of Socialist plotting and planning undone.
Desperate men take desperate measures. That is why I’m predicting a civil war.

Apr 20, 2009 - 2:10 pm 61. The Historian:

TAX PROTESTS AND CIVIL DISSENT UNHEALTHY?
Only if you are a rock star member of team Obama.

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2009/04/team-obama-rock-stars-are-not-leaders.html

Apr 20, 2009 - 2:34 pm 62. RedinaBlue State:

Simple Alinsky Rules:

Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Don’t try to attack abstract corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or spread the blame.

Apr 20, 2009 - 3:10 pm 63. RedinaBlue State:

Simple Alinsky Rules:

Rule 11: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, polarize it. Don’t try to attack abstract corporations or bureaucracies. Identify a responsible individual. Ignore attempts to shift or spread the blame

Apr 20, 2009 - 3:11 pm 64. richardsonmj:

2010 will be to late but I will wait and see.

Apr 20, 2009 - 5:43 pm 65. Deguello:

Do you seriously think that I care whether you or ANY liberal takes me seriously?Libtards like you only , pretend to engage conservatives a dishonest “dialogue” which is aimed at demoralizing them rather than exchanging ideas and viewpoints. I post for them, not for you.and I KNOW they take me very seriously. As far as our Commissarette of Internal Security goes,who calls true terrorism a “man -made catastrophe”,and then only uses the word “terrorist” in conjunction with references to veterans, second amendmendt supporters and opponents of infanticide, her statements fully justifies the description “rabid libtard bitch”.As for your condescending:”liberals have probably nothing to fear from you”.If you really believed that bilge, you wouldn’t have reacted to my post.I must comment on your halfwitted phrase:”The manner in which I dialog”.It’s not only pompous, but poor English:What’s wrong with the word: “argue”?. I can se you are probably a graduate from a government school.Fianlly I can’t resist this:F@#!k YOU JACK!

Apr 20, 2009 - 6:35 pm 66. jerryofva:

Jack:

Because you brought it up as an example of a Bush rightwing policy. It is clear that you don’t know what you are talking about beyond the usual liberal talking points. You see that is the problem with you Obamistas, you aren’t smart enough to make an intelligent argument on your own. That is why I would never apply the word Fascist to you. I only use it to describe serious people like those who write your talking points for you.

Apr 20, 2009 - 7:11 pm 67. Jack:

#65 Deguello – Ah, so you are talking to hear yourself talk. That makes more sense. Good luck with that.

Jack

Apr 20, 2009 - 7:12 pm 68. Delia:

35. Jack,

Oh please, Jack@ss, you Libtards are the QUEENS of ad-hominem attacks. Refrain from exposing your anal cranium problem. You’ve removed all doubt, kiddo. I don’t buy into your B.S., honey chile. Take it to the streets and leave the real thinking to the grown-ups.

Apr 20, 2009 - 7:25 pm 69. Jack:

#66 jerryofva – That’s rich. Why am I not surprised that you resorted to name calling and insults?

Did you notice that it was the Right that was against the stem cell research (both in 2001 and again a few months ago)? Tell me again why that Bush decision wasn’t coming from the right? I don’t recall anything in any of your posts that indicated otherwise…you just drifted completely off topic from the get go.

You can keep saying I don’t know what I’m talking about while you yourself are not actually talking about anything of substance, but it isn’t all that compelling to me. That you resort to ad hominem attacks (without any basis that I could see) is just a sign that you either realize you were wrong or couldn’t think of anything factual to say.

If you come around to some specific topic or issue I’ll be happy to respond if you have a point. I can get in a rhetoric competition with virtually anyone (not that it’s worth my time), but I had hoped (briefly) you were capable of a little more substance.

I haven’t even supported much/most of what Obama has done, but you are so busy being defensive that I guess we’ll never get around to that. Shame.

Jack

Apr 20, 2009 - 8:17 pm 70. Henrik R Clausen:

The much-feared European extreme rightwing movement is, as I described months ago, a Myth.

Worse, however, is that it is being used as a giant strawman for left-wing extremists, who attack other movements, like Pro Köln for being ‘Nazis’, incidentically beating up a Jew in the process…

The few (and usually dim-witted) neo-Nazis of today portray themselves as a leftist movement, in line with the Jacobineans of the French Revolution, and in line with the original Nazis too, who openly hated Capitalism, banking and the conservative establishment.

There is severe confusion in the Left-Right designations. This may come from Stalin trying to portray fascism and nazism as right-wing, because they were nationalist movements. Jonah Goldberg in his wonderful “intemperate rant” Liberal Fascism digs into history to set things right. This is useful, for it takes the scare out of a lot of things.

Apr 21, 2009 - 2:15 am 71. deguello:

#67 As a rejoinder, that was pathetic! Even for a libtard!To use your halfwitted solecism:You got to “dialog” better!

Apr 21, 2009 - 5:20 am 72. jerryofva:

Jack:

You keep exposing your ignorance. Stem cell research did not stop in 2001. nESC has gone ahead and there have been many useful developments. Bush did not ban hESC. He restricted federal funding to previously developed lines. His ban only applied to federal funds for new lines. New hESC lines could still be developed from private funds or state government supported research. Of course hESC research continued unabated in the rest of world. Billions have been spent and little has been accomplished.

I haven’t so much as insulted you as shown you to be ignorant. All you know is the talking points put together for you by others. When you are challenged you and shown to be short on the facts you try to change the subject. Look, most of the people here are well aware of the kind of training you recieve and the tactics you use. They may work well on a college campus where you can bully people but they don’t work here. My suggestion to you is to grow up.

Apr 21, 2009 - 6:30 am 73. Jack:

#71 jerryofva – You need to polish your reading skills before you call people ignorant.

Did I say stem cell research stopped? Nope. In fact over the past few posts I clearly indicated that it hadn’t.

Did I say Bush banned it? Nope. I said they worked since 2001 with 1 hand tied behind their back because he restricted federal funding.

So now that we have proven your “ignorance” insult a lie, we’ll go on to the other insults. I’m somehow an Obamista (baseless claim from you especially after I said I haven’t supported most of what he’s done…reading problem again?), and I’m not “smart” and I am unable to “make an intelligent argument” (while you continue to duck my smart and intelligent points). Then you throw in a claim of me being juvenile when typically that charge goes against the one engaging in name-calling.

You were wrong on all of my stem cell posts (said it before, you haven’t been able to challenge it except for mis-reading what I’ve clearly said several times…intentionally one would have to assume after you keep doing it). And then you jump to conspiracy theory that I’ve been trained in some leftist camp (i.e., the “training I’ve received”).

SO are you going to show your intellect by continuing to ignore my challenges, specifically the one about Bush’s decision coming from his supporters on the Right? Or how about the one about you saying no private company spending their money on hESC (like Geron is doing)? Or how about the one about why you folks on the right shouldn’t be concerned about hESC research because you have stated that no one sees any value? Or how about the one where I ask you if you are so arrogant to close off an entire line of research because you are suddenly smarter than everyone else?

I answer your questions, you ignore mine, and you say that I am the one changing the subject. If you want my suggestion, take a comprehensive reading course, then take a debate course (where they’ll teach you how baseless insults don’t work), and then learn a little humility. Your ego outpaces your thinking.

Jack

(P.S. I’m actually serious…are you intentionally mis-reading everything and leaping to crazed assumptions and over-reactions about my support of Obama SIMPLY becuase I disagree with you that Bush was on the right? Heck, I haven’t even disagreed with you about stem cells if you re-read what I’ve said. The irony that this is going on in a thread about extremism is sublime…)

Apr 21, 2009 - 6:58 am 74. Jack:

#68 Delia – Ah, so everyone YOU classify as liberal is the exact same? Am I making ad hominem attacks? Do you always call people you don’t know names for no reason?

Do you have any comment on any of my points or do you not talk about issues? (my history on your posts indicates you just want to name call and not have any real discussion, but I’ll give you one more try since you cared enough about my posts to chime in…)

The funny thing is I seem to be the only one here who wants to discuss things…you all just want to insult people (who aren’t insulting you, btw). Even people who have said no less than three times in this thread that I disagree with Obama. Maybe reading comprehension is a larger problem than I thought

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 7:09 am 75. Jack:

#71 deguello – Hush, prescious. People are talking.

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 7:11 am 76. steveg:

Jack is obviously a dopey indoctrinated koz kid. A sorry product of our dolt-producing educational system. Ignore him and he will eventually go away.

Apr 21, 2009 - 9:18 am 77. Jack:

#76 steveg – It might surprise you that I’ve never even been to a liberal blog site. I don’t find much use in sitting around talking to people who agree with me. What is the point? So, I come to places like this to see if anyone actually wants to discuss issues but more often than not, these people would rather toss insults than actually have an intelligent discussion.

But if you aren’t willing/able to jump into honest debate, feel free to keep hugging these other one-liner types and know that you aren’t helping anyone or anything. Personally I’d like to think (it’s hard at times) that honest discussion and debate is possible or else we’ll all just continue to circle the drain, but maybe I’m alone in that.

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 9:43 am 78. deguello:

#75JACK:”People are talking”! Good! So your special ed. teacher agrees with me that people are talking is better usage than people are “dialoging”.Glad to be of help;so happy to know that your sp. ed. teacher told you to take my criticisms seriously.What’s all this “precious” stuff,are you channeling GOLLUM?(a true libtard BTW).

Apr 21, 2009 - 9:57 am 79. Delia:

Jack,

You wrote to me: ‘You’ want 100% agreement or nothing at all.

I don’t see where you get that idea about me since I’m pretty much all over the place with my political/personal beliefs and rants. I believe in being fiscally conservative and I mentioned that the tea parties were peaceful because HELLO they WERE. Sheesh! I’m mad at both political parties but I’d rather be a Repub than a Dem [*shiver*] any day. The slimy, racist thug with his tax-dodging, phony, elitist ‘It’s patriotic to pay taxes’ liars in his ‘cabinet’ of skanks make me want to vom.

If you don’t agree with me I could give a flying frickety frack. Please, DON’T agree with me.

When people wake up from the brain-fog of the 0mamanation of madness, hopefully people will actually get out and vote the sickos in office who don’t deserve their spots in the catbird seat OUT.

Apr 21, 2009 - 10:24 am 80. Jack:

#78 deguello – Oh no, somebody is cranky! I suggest you go get a juice box and maybe take a nap.

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 11:15 am 81. Jack:

#79 Delia – Is it that I want 100% agreement or is it you that can’t tolerate 1% of disagreement? As to the Tea Party protests, my point was that they were non-violent, but also not inclusive or designed to gain support from anyone left of center. Case in point, everyone’s treatment of me here. None of you care if you get support, you just want to vent (which will continue to deteriorate the chances of getting what you want passed). Let us not forget that I’m not the one lashing out all the time. I wasn’t even talking to you and you started with the insults.

Duly noted however that you didn’t come back with anything approximating an issue to discuss. I’d be happy to agree or disagree with you if you only had something to talk about…presumably you would like to see changes and I’m not sure how insulting me will make me see the light…and since you don’t know me, why do you assume I’m not already on your side in some cases?

In all truth, you can keep flailing at me all you like (it won’t hurt my feelings), but it isn’t going to help the country. This entire thread I’ve tried to ask many of you to calmly discuss issues but it has only turned into attacks. The only point I’ve made was that Bush governed from the right (which was an aside to the actual point I was making) and used stem cell research as an example. After that, jerryofva veered off into scientific discussions that had nothing to do with my point. And after asking him to assert that Bush wasn’t coming from the right 3 times on that particular issue, I got 3 rounds of insults and still nothing pertaining to an answer, and then all of you joined in on the name calling.

So since I’m clearly in the bag for Obama, tell me what I’m so off base about exactly? Bearing in mind you have to use my words against me, not Obama’s…

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 11:41 am 82. Deguello:

#80 JACK: OH No! a libtard has been exposed as an ineffectual cretin ;his special needs teacher needs to change his meds,and rub his little head!Why don’t you take a nap and forget to wake up?

Apr 21, 2009 - 6:11 pm 83. FD186:

I came back from Iraq and joined the volunteer fire department. Pretty extreme huh? I have spent 25 years of active and reserve service in the uniform of my country. I have taken an oath (one that I take very seriously) to support and defend the constitution of the USA. Ms Napolitano has vicously insulted the integrity and committment of every generation of American veterans. For some reason, I am getting the impression that the Obama Administration fears the very people it’s supposed to serve.

Apr 21, 2009 - 6:54 pm 84. Jack:

#82 deguello – Nouns are often used as verbs, and aside from ‘dialoging being in the dictionary as the proper form of the verb ‘to dialog’, does it vex you so in the morning when you are ‘buttering’ your toast? Do you condemn people for ‘vacuuming’? Do you hate ‘fishing’ and ‘golfing’? Why are you ‘dogging’ me on this issue? Maybe spend less time dialoging about things you find grammatically displeasing and instead take the same laser-like focus on spelling? Or since you are ‘blogging’ you might want to spend some time on important issues of the day (and a little less ‘cursing’ and ’swearing’).

But I do find it funny that you have hung onto this so long. Your comments are so full of typos, misuse of punctuation, non-standard use of spacing/capitalization, etc. that it’s truly humorous that this is what stuck in your craw. I can only hope the irony of that hasn’t been lost on you.

You can’t honestly think I’ll engage you in anyting other than nonsense as long as you act this way. You have yet to get near a point…why do you even bother to post? Seriously, if it truly isn’t to hear yourself talk, gimme a point…any point…I beg of you…anything? Ever? Even a small one?

Come on Pumpkin, challenge me or go play tic-tac-toe with the other kids or have a point.

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 6:58 pm 85. Jack:

To the rest of you: Yes, deguello is acting like a 12 year old, so I’ll admit that I will keep treating her that way.

That said, do you want her to be your spokesperson? I’ll throw this out there as a challenge…name three Obama policies that you hate and we’ll see my reaction. Deguello might even (sigh) tell us what she thinks if we make a serious go of it….

If you are bold enough to do it, I’ll be bold enough to answer. Anyone? I hate to drag it out of you, but if I don’t ask for your specific opinions I’ll only get insults…(yes, I’m daring you to pick points that I may agree with you on…but that’s why you are over-reacting…you dont’ know my opinions…time to assume or apologize…run with it)

Jack

Apr 21, 2009 - 7:12 pm 86. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
You’re good at bating people and making a fool out of them. Do you want to try somebody more your size. I’m available.

You should quit picking on my girl Delia.

Apr 21, 2009 - 7:55 pm 87. Oscar the Grump:

1. Obama sucking up to nations bent on destroying us either physically or economically.

2. Obama handing over our interogation techniques to the world.

3 Obama laying the ground work to prosecute the lawyers that laid out the legality or Guantonimo

4. Obama rewarding ACORN.

5. Obama canceling weapons programs that our enemies are trying so hard to copy.

6. Obama rewarding HAMAS

Jack there is a half dozen. Do you want more?

Apr 21, 2009 - 8:02 pm 88. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
Where are you?

Apr 21, 2009 - 8:04 pm 89. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
You have a history on people’s posts? What kind of freak are you? Who exactly is doing histories on people’s posts? Do you want to come out of the closet? DHS…..? Who and what are you?

Apr 21, 2009 - 8:09 pm 90. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
(my history on your posts indicates you just want to name call and not have any real discussion, but I’ll give you one more try since you cared enough about my posts to chime in…)

Apr 21, 2009 - 8:13 pm 91. theJCred:

Jack:

I want to compliment you for being a counterpoint, without being a troll, which is by far my biggest problem with the left. I expect the left and right to be at odds on almost everything under the sun. But, what I’ve never expected to see is the duels become, “If you do not see it my way, it’s because you are intolerant or full of hate”.
Gay marriage and climate seem to be the two biggest issues. After losing the popular vote in California, instead of rallying for support to get a different result during the next election, they’re trying to overturn the vote. The Miss America stunt was shameful. This woman worked hard, just to have a talentless hack have the opportunity to ask her a question that guaranteed her best possible outcome was to be the first Miss America to alienate half of the country, regardless of how she answered.

Climate change is supposed to be accepted as gospel, although it’s predicitons are consistently inaccurate and we’ve paid no due diligence to the scientists’ work whom disagree and have nothing other than personal and scientific integrity on the line.

The DHS report was an insult. Terrorism does not manifest itself in public protest. What makes it terrifying, is that you know it’s around but never see it, unless it’s attacking. These were public protests. No different from the left protesting, besides the 600+ locations, with minimal violence, and a non-liberal cause.

A brief history lesson:

– Republican Party formed for the purpose of ending slavery. Starts a protest known as the Civil War (the North), gives the world Abraham Lincoln, ends slavery etc.

– The Democratic party was directly tied to the Ku Klux Klan, terrorizing Blacks, Christians and Republicans, until right-wing activism defeats it.

– Republican, Martin Luther King Jr. is provided the needed “white support” from the Republican Party to begin the civil rights movement.

Noticing a pattern here? Falsely labeled as intolerant racists, history clearly shows the right protected America’s freedom against leftist oppression. To be fair, I do not believe that the modern, young liberal reflects the left’s past. But I am certain that the right doesn’t either.

Apr 22, 2009 - 1:07 am 92. theJCred:

63. FD186

First, thank you for your service.
This is their way of attacking citizen opposition, in the same way they attack media opposition.

Obama’s cuts in military funding affected those still enlisted and that hasn’t earned him high favor from them. I read somewhere that during his “surprise” stop on the way home from Europe, involved white house staffers having to find out who voted for Obama and put them up front (with tax-payer issue matching digital cameras) in order to create the illusion of excitement for his arrival. I do not remember the validity of the claim, but if true, the need to stage things to that degree is a bit unsettling. Not to mention, it’s none of their business how the soldiers voted individually.

Apr 22, 2009 - 1:18 am 93. Jack:

#86 Oscar – Do you have a point? And while it’s “cute” you are ‘protecting’ Delia, a) she attacked me, and b) she certainly doesn’t need your help.

#88, 89, 90 Oscar – Ease back on the meds, take a deep breath, and then work on organizing your thoughts a little. Scroll up, look for the name ‘Delia’ and look at her posts. You now have a small history of her posts too!!

#87 Oscar – I’m not sure what you want me to do with your 6 statements. I’ve said over and over that I don’t agree with Obama on many things and I can’t tell if some of your statements are forward looking or something in the past. I’ll do what I can…

1) If you mention a specific country we can discuss it, this is kind of open ended. But if you are talking Chavez for example, um, who cares? Venezuela hates us already and to the extent they want to undermine us, they are already doing it. Shaking his hand is hardly going to hurt our country and if that simple act lowers my gas prices, fine with me. In general, our approach of threaten and ignore everyone who hates us hasn’t worked, and in cases like Russia, China and soon to be Pakistan and Iran, they are nuclear nations so it should be clear we can’t (won’t) push them around.

2) It’s related to #1 but the damage Bush did to our morality needs to be undone. I don’t think much of what we did/do is anywhere near qualifying as “torture” but the assumption across the world was that we did torture people (and we did). I don’t want our ppl tortured, I don’t want the world to have more reasons to think we have lost our moral center, and there are still discussions (which I’m not privvy to) about the effectiveness of those techniques. If Bush hadn’t allowed torture, there wouldn’t be anything for Obama to undo. That said, I don’t think he should have released those documents…he could have just re-defined our techniques without giving all of the details.

3) I don’t know what you are talking about, but if anyone broke the law, I’m not sure why we wouldn’t look into it.

4) Ah, the white whale of the conservative talking points (since I am constantly accused of using liberal talking points). ACORN. Well, you brought it up, so how did Obama reward acorn exactly?

5) Bush pulled out of the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and then broke the agreement to not build anti-missile systems, both agreements were the foundation of the end of the arms spiral with Russia. Russia then invades Georgia and there isn’t a darn thing we can do about it (as was evidenced by Russian troops still being there and Bush not having any answer). Poke the bull, get the horns. If we want Russia to stop taking over their neighbors it just might involve *gasp* compromise. This ‘dirty word’ is the biggest weakness in the neo-con strategy…no compromose with anyone ever. The problem is, when there are countries that you can’t push around, you’ll get absolutely nowhere (or actually go backwards as we’ve done in most of the world for the past several years).

6) What are you specifically referring to?

Jack

Apr 22, 2009 - 5:40 am 94. Jack:

#91 theJCred – First, thanks for your comment on me not being a troll. It’s hard at times when there is a collective effort to eviscerate me every time I say anything, but I do my best.

People are quick with the intolerance/racist/etc language, and the outcome has sadly been that the claims are so common they are ignored (and in some cases they shouldn’t be). It’s the same with fascist and socialist…those claims just roll off democrats because it’s a meaningless generality.

Gay marriage – How are they trying to overturn the vote in California? I presume through some legal means (whether you like the outcome or not). My first thought was that Perez Hilton probably has no business at the pageant, but my second thought was that the contest is kind of a vapid thing anyway (they don’t even have a talent competition) so maybe Perez should be the President of it. I think she should have been judged based on way she answered, not the content…it isn’t a test, it’s an open ended question to see how they comport themselves. I don’t know whether it cost her the win or not (and I doubt we’ll ever know). But you are right, that’s not the type of question to ask at something like that…it’s not a political rally.

Climate change – There are enough indications that “something” is happening…you say the left expects it to be gospel, but the right refuses to say that anything is even possible. Extremism on both sides perhaps. IMHO, we’ve seen proof that we have the ability to worsen acid rain, so we can have some impact. We’ve seen the health impacts of smog, etc. Bottom line, even if we don’t make changes for the health of the planet, we could probably improve our own health, and long term our energy consumption is going to be a problem anyway. Plenty of good reasons to make some of those changes without necessarily buying into global warming.

The DHS Report – On the surface, it seems pretty thin and perhaps insulting. I’m going to take a pass on this one for only one reason. If they do have credible threat information, we would crucify them if they had that info and didn’t tell anyone and we had another Oklahoma. If they don’t have credible threat info, then I’m totally on board with the criticism. Although I think the theme of the memo was that people are going to try to get at the vets, not that the vets were a risk in and of themselves.

The party’s have changed quite a bit over time, so I had to try to draw connections very far back. Suffice it to say, in my opinion one of the main issues with our cross-party communications is the common use of sweeping generalities and the bomb-throwing that is facilitated by it.

Jack

Apr 22, 2009 - 9:05 am 95. Jack:

That should have said “HATE to try to draw connections very far back” and not “HAD to try to…”

Jack

Apr 22, 2009 - 10:36 am 96. Delia:

Hey, Jack…

You mentioned my name on this thread first and not the other way around.

-And, if my knee-jerk reaction to you was hostility it’s because I’ve run out of patience lately. If you feel unfairly attacked by me or others, please understand I get attacked voraciously and PERSONALLY by lefties who come here with their hate agenda.

If you are one of the rare, shining examples of a Democrat who does not name-call or get ugly and personal then my bad for devolving into that realm.

There’s nothing I want to bicker or debate you on today. I’m exhausted from other things in my life but if you want to rile my dander on one of my better days feel free to give me a shout out.

Have fun and stay sane…

Delia =0)

Apr 22, 2009 - 11:06 am 97. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
I’m here. I took a break from work.

Re
1) Let’s try Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia. Am I wrong or did our great President, the holy of holies, bow to the Saudi King. The question is did he kiss his jewels while at it. Iran, who cares if they have nuclear weapons and a delivery system. Who cares if they meddle in the affairs of Iraq, supplied and trained people to kill our soldiers, who cares if they help Hamas with weapons and training, who cares if they arm and train Hezbollah. With Russia, we’ll unilaterally disarm and do away with our missle defense system. Kiss, Kiss Chavez , Castro and any other left wing anti-US tyrannt.

2) Our enemies don’t ask our permission to torture our people. They don’t adhere to the Geneva Convention. We’re the only ones who question if what we are doing is legal. Now I’ll match you, I don’t care.

3) Obama has opened up the door for Eric Holter to possibly prosecute the attorney which drew up the legal position on our torture at Guantonimo. The legal position was based on a 1950 Supreme court decision that enemy combatants have no right to Habeus Corpos.
If you want me to give you the details on that judgement, I’ll be glad to tell you what I know.

4) He gave them lots and lots of money. This time it’s our money he’s giving them.

5) Take a course in international relations. You need to learn a lot more. Your answer is weak. I expect more out of you.

6) Obama has given Hamas 900,000,000 American taxpayer dollars to help “rebuild”. He has also volunteered to accept 10,000 Gaza citizens into this country. If you don’t know about this watch the news,

Apr 22, 2009 - 11:43 am 98. Jack:

#96 Delia – Fair enough, I’ll bother you no more (here)! I did mention your name and made a comment (parties were peacful but not inclusive) and your next comment to me was nothing but an attack (rather than disagreeing with me).

And I won’t say that I don’t name call, but I try real hard not to.

Hope the rest of your day is relaxing.

Jack

Apr 22, 2009 - 12:01 pm 99. Jack:

#97 Oscar

1) I define sucking up differently than you. To you, sucking up seems to mean if you smile at someone you are going to cave in on every issue with that person. To me, sucking up is getting someone to the table like civil human beings to discuss a problem. The recent philosophy of “do what I say and then we’ll talk” clearly hasn’t done anything…look at Cuba for example…Castro is still defiant as ever. Talking to people doesn’t mean giving in, but not talking does mean status quo…Iran builds nukes, China keeps hacking us, Russia keeps invading neighbors, etc. As to Saudi, same thing…bowing, holding hands, tongue kissing, whatever…it does not equate to caving to someone’s demands.

How did our policy of not talking to Iran have any affect on what they did in Iraq or with their nuclear program? The sanctions rolled right off them, and no one is supporting us to make it more serious.

2) Two wrongs don’t make a right (in torture or anything else). I again think we are a bit muddled in our thinking about what constitutes torture or the circumstances in which one type of activity is or isn’t ok, but pulling someone’s fingernails out is not ok even if they did it to us first.

3) It’s fair if any of those charges ever come, but they won’t, no one thinks they will, and the door was always open for the Attorney General to bring charges on anyone…Obama didn’t actually do anything. This is the kind of topic that ticks me off (at the Right and Left alike) because we are discussing something that might happen (which won’t) but which is used to say how “Someone” is an awful person. Obama “could” tear the head off a kitten, but discussing it is a waste of time.

4) I don’t have that info so I can’t say much at this point, except the Right has Acorn and the entire population of Community Organizers and the Left has Conservative think tanks and the NRA and so on. Soros vs. Murdoch, etc etc. They all suck in my humble opinion (at least in terms of their questionable political practices…the NRA serves a purpose for example, but they do shady things just like PETA or the ACLU does).

5) Sorry you don’t like my answer, but do you have a counter-argument (saying you don’t agree with me on the motivations of Russia, for example, is only half of the conversation…how am I wrong)? Perhaps you could tell me what you would do to fix the situation with Russia?

Separately, I’m sure you can find a hundred different ways to cut up the defense budget and some expert will think you’re doing it wrong for all of them.

6) My answer for Palestine is having Israel wipe them off the map. Wars end when someone wins…if the war is prevented from ending, it will go on forever. Since Palestine can’t win on their own, and no one in the region is willing to sign up to help them (overtly) then they lose. None of our Presidents have done a good job and I’ll be suprised if Obama solves this either.

Jack

Apr 22, 2009 - 12:25 pm 100. Delia:

98. Jack,

Thank you, Jack. I’m tuckered out and not in my best form this week. I *do* like a good debate though, don’t get me wrong or count me out when I’m more on my game. -But, since you have been polite and cordial with me I will refrain from my knee-jerk attack-mode next time. Sometimes I just like to throw my opinion in the mix and then leave because I have business to take care of on the internet too.

To Oscar Le Grump,

Thank you for standin’ up for me, Snookums. I’m no Damnsel in distress but I do appreciate a kind person such as yourself steppin’ in for me when I’m not online to defend myself. (((HUG)))

Apr 22, 2009 - 1:04 pm 101. Delia:

“Damnsel?” GRR! ‘DAMSEL’.

Grrrrrrrr. *kicks self and winces*

Apr 22, 2009 - 1:06 pm 102. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
All you do to counter any point I make is to give an opinion. For you that seems to be enough. Give me some hard facts, some salient points or don’t waste my time.

You called others weak that was to cover your inadequacies.

1) Sanctions have worked to at least slow down their progress. The threat of war also works. Holding hands and listening to them doesn’t work. Look at the recent Durban II conference as an example.

2) The people we are talking about are the same group that attacked the twin towers. There was a second attack planned for the west coast. It was stopped while they were working on executing it. Information obtained through torture and only torture stopped it. In this case 182 cases of wrong (water boarding) saved an unknown but estimated thousands of lives.

3) “Its fair if any of those charges ever come.” that sure makes me want to be a federal employee. If a current administration can prosecute members of a previous administration in the name of legality (which in this case is just dirty politics) it sets a precedent for witch hunts in the future. The saying is what goes around comes around. There is plenty Obama is doing now that can be misconstrued later as illegal.

4) Its not the same thing. ACORN was part of the Clinton era agenda.
They were allowed to bring banks up for charges if they refused to give subprime loans. Later they were part of the group the qualified subprime loan borrowers and they recieved a commission for doing so.
They are directly responsible for a lot of this economic mess. Just wait the “extended arm loan” bubble is about to burst that’s another cool one trillion. Six months from now the “ninja” loans will do the same and that’s another half trillion in defaults.

5) Let me let you in a secret, there is no morality in international relations. Compromise is seen as weakness. Nevil Chamberlain is a good example. “We’ll be glad to give you the Sudentanland if you will just be nice.” They took the Sudentanland and Czechoslovakia a week later. Go compromise with North Korea, Russia, Iran, China, and see what you get. I know what you get, you get Jimmy Carter.

6) D*mn you, you got this one right. That really p*sses me off.

O’kay I let you bait me, your turn. Give me three points and let me give you an opinion/ a counter.

Apr 22, 2009 - 2:14 pm 103. Jack:

#102 Oscar – Since your responses are riddled with opinions without facts, I’ll continue to respond the way I have been. And my points were salient enough for you to not challenge them (only dismiss them) so I guess you (by your own measure) are chock full of inadequacies as well.

1) Slowing down their progress isn’t the stated goal by both sides of our government. No one has the guts to do what needs to be done to stop it, so slowing it down just makes it our kids problems (or probably just ours in 10 years instead of 5). Except perhaps Israel. One could consider that, since we control Iraqi airspace and have refused Israel permission to fly over to “handle” Iran, us pulling out of Iraq might be part of the Iran plan. Once we give Iraq their airspace back, they wouldnt’ be able to stop Israel from flying over anyway. I fear that this might just be wishful thinking on my part though.

You say holding hands won’t work, where is your plan? Bush didn’t have one that worked and I doubt Obama will either unless they get the support of the other Security Council members, which means holding hands with Russia and China (who profit from their relationship with Iran). Unless you think you can bully China and Russia into helping us bully Iran?

2) I’m not of the opinion that water boarding is torture. But, you can’t just pull the fingernails out of every person you find just in case they have information. Extreme situations call for extreme measures, but drawing the line is hard and likely to be muddied over time.

3) Unless you are of the Nixonian mindset that whatever the President does is inherently legal, then you can’t stop investigating past and current officials (of any branch). One could argue that Lewinsky-gate took the entire country’s eyes off of important things like burgeoning terrorist threats all because of marital infidelity and where that led (the meaining of ‘is’). Like it or not, our politicians lie, cheat and steal, and investigations have to go on. Keeping it from going purely into playing politics is what we on both sides are bad at. Which, is why we have to stop giving up our civil liberties in exchange for “safety”.

4) I’m not going to defend ACORN, but their behavior falls into the same category as re-drawing districts with every new president (politically) and the same category as Fannie, Freddie, Enron, AIG, Haliburton and the rest (corporately). I’m not going to make a two wrongs make a right argument, so unless you think there aren’t equivalent entities operating on behalf of the Right, there isn’t much to say here except they are all wrong (and a good part of what is wrong with our government…the win at all costs mentality).

5) International relations isn’t about morality, it’s about effectiveness. You keep saying you don’t want to compromise, but how are you going to get China, NK, Russia, Iran, etc to do what we want? And, while I know it’s not believed on the Right, before Bush pulled out the Axis-of-Evil boondoggle, NK had inspectors, cameras, seals, etc in exchange for two light water nuclear plants (i.e. compromise). You can say they were building covertly, but based on what you said about Iran, slower is better. At worst they went from a covert operation with some inspections to a nuclear arsenal, no inspections, and overt long-range missle development tests. Shaking our fist, trying to get support for sanctions (and largely failing) and threatening them clearly didn’t work. So again, I’m not hearing a plan other than “don’t talk to them”.

6) Hooray! 1 out of 6 isn’t great, but I’ll take it

Jack

Apr 23, 2009 - 10:03 am 104. Oscar the Grump:

Jack
We’re two dogs chasing our tails. I am looking forward to sparring with you again. In the least, its fun.

Apr 23, 2009 - 3:43 pm 105. Jack:

Oscar,
And I had my 3 questions ready! Good talk though, and not just because it was the only actual discussion I could muster out of anyone in 100+ posts.

Even if we don’t end up agreeing, having discussions lets us explore the issues which I think is of value. For example, I’ve had to hone in on my torture beliefs in the past few days and while I’m still not going to get a lot of agreement in some cases, I’ve made some changes to my thoughts.

The pedantic name calling however was not part of that self-reflection, so I do appreciate your input.

Jack

Apr 23, 2009 - 5:04 pm 106. deguello:

JACK! GREETINGS! I’ve see that you’ve been busy infesting PJM with your libtard drool;time to bring you up short. I’m afraid that if you thought that your little “critiques”( I am being kind)of my responses to your libtard drool would convince your special education teacher to mainstream you back into normality,then you are going to be disappointed.Thanks for promoting me as a spokesperson for those who disagree with you;but I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself,although I can see that as an Obama voter, you assume that we conservatives need a leader to follow as badly as you do. Let’s adress your little alleged visit to the dictionary(surely a big first for you).You claim that your half-wittwed and pretentious solecism ..”the manner in which youi dialog is correct English,because “DIALOGUING”, as a verb, is in the dictionary. Thaat’s funny:the Random House Dictionary of Modern English(2nd edition) lists the verb form of dialogue as DIALOGIZE;not dialog.Not only are you pretentious ,you are a liar as well.I would love” dogging” libtards, unfortunately,I love dogs, and feeding them toxic waste would poison them;there are other ways though!More ignorance: DEGUELLO has an a at the end, which in Spanish indicates the masculine noun: please keep that in mind,when referring to me as “her”. You accuse me of acting like a 12 year old when your educational level is evidently way below that.Let’s adress your need to “dialog” with me,and to challenge me to name three Obama policies I disagree with,(only three?)Let’s start with:1. a foreign policy based cringing appeasement,and unilateral disarmament; 2.Public funding of ACORN street thugs who regularly attempt to falsify elections;3.Bailouts to help the corrupt banks which bankrolled his election effort. But let’s return to this memo.written by a ditz who has said that the 911 terrorists entered the country through Canada,(they didn’t);and that “illegal”immigration “is not a crime”;(it is). What kind of credibility can a memo from this manifest boob have?In your post#11 you defend the memo,implying, that recent political protests by conservatives were not patriotic,What hypocrites you libs are! I thought you folks believed that: “patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel”?Apparently not when a libtard needs to use this particular refuge to house conservative political dissent.This memo is nothing but an outline of incipient totalitarianism;a “wish” list for leftist repression. Defending, it, compromises your credibility,exposes you as a fraud and puts you in the same virulent category,as Holocaust deniers,Castro sympathizers,and Nation of Islam members.As far as playing toc tac toe with you,I thought the idea was to show your special needs teacher that you could play more difficult games..There are other games we(and our respective allies)will be playing someday, Jack,and it won’t be anything as harmless as tic tac toe.

Apr 24, 2009 - 9:00 am 107. Jack:

Deguello – I knew you were a guy, I was being condescending because you are a tool. It’s a shame that was what it took to actually get you to almost talk about issues, but since you did…

1. We clearly disagree on this one and it’s being thoroughly covered in another thread that is entirely about this topic.
2. Addressed that here already.
3. Bailouts were clearly done the wrong way and tax breaks would have been a better way to have stirred the economy.

- Napolitano has not been impressive to say the very least. And I don’t know how anyone can clam that something with the word ‘illegal’ in it is legal…

- I wasn’t defending the memo on the vets, I was stating that my interpretation was not that it was saying that vets are going to rise up, just that vets might be targetted by those who want to rise up. So you misunderstood me.

- If libs believe that “patriotism was the last refuge of the scoundrel” then I was never informed or I’m not a lib.

Nothing else in your diatribe merits a response.

Jack

Apr 24, 2009 - 2:15 pm 108. deguello:

You “knew” I was a guy? Just like you “knew”dialog”(sic)was a verb,and how you weren’t defending the memo. OK.,If you say so.Go back to playing tic tac toe with your classmates.

Apr 24, 2009 - 6:31 pm 109. Jack:

Deguello – Just like you knew deguello ends with an ‘a’. And dialoging is a verb, I don’t even know how you don’t get that.

Apr 25, 2009 - 7:52 am 110. deguello:

JACK:Funny, neither did the folks who wrote the dictionary.

Apr 27, 2009 - 5:23 am 111. Jack:

Dictionary.com

di-a-logue: [dahy-uh-lawg, -log] noun, verb -logued, -loguing.

–verb (used without object) 5. to carry on a dialogue; converse.
6. to discuss areas of disagreement frankly in order to resolve them.

While there you can also find that ‘deguello’ was the title of a bugle call the Mexicans used while fighting our troops at the Alamo. Nice choice of names. It also appears to end with an ‘o’ and not an ‘a’ as you assert.

Jack

Apr 27, 2009 - 7:00 am 112. deguello:

JACK:that “A” was a typo,my mistake;Mea Culpa.Deguello,is indeed a bugle call(and a flag) both used at the Alamo,but not only there, to indicate that no quarter would be given.It has other meanings derived from the above-stated. For example,it’s the method of execution favored by those who profess the religion of peace,(beheading using a knife):the idiot Napolitano might call it a “man made catastrophe”.Other appeasing libtards might call it performance art.Finally, it also means a catastrophic state of total warfare characterized by massacre.I use the tag to allude to the (not so distant) future,where the right wing resistance,anticipating gulags,finally gives the left what it deserves for nearly 50 years of torture,murder,and government oppression. ‘Tis a consummation devoutly to be wished : Think Chile,and Spain.I will concede, that the .COM ,dictionary does indeed permit the use of dialogue as a verb;however,other dictionaries do not:it’s stylistically pretentious.Use argue instead;dialog is the kind of thing a therapist, professor of education, community organizer,George Bush,Janet Napolitano, or other virulent, half-witted social parasites routinely employ to add weight,to their idiocies.Are we ready to play tiddly winks yet? QUE VIVA EL DEGUELLO!

Apr 27, 2009 - 8:06 am 113. Jack:

Deguello – “performance art” …ok, now that was actually funny. I’ll give you that.

And I’ll agree stylistically pretentious as well, but it’s still a verb. However, I don’t use the word ‘argue’ because I’m not arguing…I’m discussing (which is the difference between you and I…). But as it happened, I got awfully tired of saying discussing so I said dialoging to mix it up. I’ll take it up with my writing staff that you didn’t care for it and we’ll try to get a new mental Thesaurus.

That said, you (and others) are anticipating the end of the country in the next 4 years, goulags, the soon to be released Chavez/Obama secret sex tape, everyone losing their guns, and all sorts of other outlandish things. I have a very hard time DISCUSSING issues like that because you are so far to the Right I think you can’t here me over in the relativistic center as you have fallen into Chicken Little land and there is no bringing you back. Time will tell, but until then there doesn’t seem to be any point in DISCUSSING things with you, as I don’t think you are open to listening to any other viewpoint than your own.

Maybe once you are in your 30’s (assuming you aren’t) you’ll have a bit more perspective.

Jack

Apr 27, 2009 - 10:37 am 114. deguello:

Well,well,I made you smile;that’s good!As far as the future is concerned;I’d like to agree with you. However, I think I’ve got this guy pegged correctly, as a Chavez wannabe,backed by a political party composed of pandering,economically illiterate demagogues. Sex tapes or , or not ,it’s going to be interesting;as yo said, time will tell.

Apr 27, 2009 - 1:53 pm 115. Mitt Karbit:

This article seems very confused. The terms “right wing ” and “left wing” change from time to time. When left and right was first defined in 18th century France, the left was associated with capitalism and free market. The right on the other hand advocated the divine rule of the monarch and his government. As time passed, socialism and communism were invented and they were considered so far left that the old left became the new right. The Nazi hark back to the old right which has become the extreme right.

Apr 29, 2009 - 4:06 am

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