Comments on: Valkyrie’s Revisionism http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/ Sun, 22 Nov 2009 00:30:56 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Marie Claude http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-3/#comment-384402 Marie Claude Fri, 28 Aug 2009 11:00:21 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-384402 well, seems tha movie was appreciated in the US : 37,6 millions dollars for the first week-end of exploitation I wouldn't say that Tarantino inspiration came from Göbels, but rather from his knowledge of Cinema history, and Enzo G. Castellari (the new "cru" of Tarantino is more or less a remake of "Inglorious Bastards" 1978 also of "the dirty douzen"... plenty of referrences from the cinema anthology : http://qc.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090817/arts/20090817_commando_batards ), were more likely his referrence. Now, in Cannes the movie was booed well, seems tha movie was appreciated in the US : 37,6 millions dollars for the first week-end of exploitation

I wouldn’t say that Tarantino inspiration came from Göbels, but rather from his knowledge of Cinema history, and Enzo G. Castellari (the new “cru” of Tarantino is more or less a remake of “Inglorious Bastards” 1978 also of “the dirty douzen”… plenty of referrences from the cinema anthology : http://qc.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090817/arts/20090817_commando_batards ), were more likely his referrence.

Now, in Cannes the movie was booed

]]> By: Rob http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-3/#comment-212956 Rob Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:08:14 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-212956 24 Moon. Probably the best attempt at understanding evil of the Nazis as I have seen. Even as a believer in original sin and the fallen nature of man, I still hope for something that is good that comes out of redemed man. The sense that we are utterly fallen in every aspect of our being doesn't mean however that we are totally evil or as evil as we can be. Our sense of evil and goodness can at least prove the case. Thanks 24 Moon. Probably the best attempt at understanding evil of the Nazis as I have seen. Even as a believer in original sin and the fallen nature of man, I still hope for something that is good that comes out of redemed man. The sense that we are utterly fallen in every aspect of our being doesn’t mean however that we are totally evil or as evil as we can be. Our sense of evil and goodness can at least prove the case. Thanks

]]> By: Nora Brinker http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-193023 Nora Brinker Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:09:19 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-193023 Count Stauffenberg, I was agreeing with what you said up to this point: "As it is now the human quality of your article is comparable to Clausen´s letter to his wife written in 1939." Do you really think that John Rosenthals ultracritical, even captious article about the German military resistance is comparable to what your relative wrote to his wife? Rosenthal's article served the important purpose to expose another one of the countless efforts of self-exculpation by historical revisionism (in this case helpfully performed by Americans who, in naive wishful thinking, only too gladly support such efforts because they hate to hate the Germans). I think that ought to be recognized as important and the right thing to do. I would place Mr. Rosenthal somewhere at the conservative wing (if there is anything like that) of the "anti-German" movement, the members of which tend to tar Germany and the Germans with too broad a brush. However, in the light of the neverending German whining and lack of honest self-reflection it ought to be seen as a thought-provoking counterpoise. It is certainly disproportional, even unfair, to judge and dismiss the achievement of a man like Claus von Stauffenberg on the strength of some very private biographical detail, but it doesn't serve any positive purpose either to dismiss John Rosenthal's article summarily. I think this is a most interesting and potentially fruitful discussion. Count Stauffenberg, I was agreeing with what you said up to this point: “As it is now the human quality of your article is comparable to Clausen´s letter to his wife written in 1939.” Do you really think that John Rosenthals ultracritical, even captious article about the German military resistance is comparable to what your relative wrote to his wife? Rosenthal’s article served the important purpose to expose another one of the countless efforts of self-exculpation by historical revisionism (in this case helpfully performed by Americans who, in naive wishful thinking, only too gladly support such efforts because they hate to hate the Germans). I think that ought to be recognized as important and the right thing to do. I would place Mr. Rosenthal somewhere at the conservative wing (if there is anything like that) of the “anti-German” movement, the members of which tend to tar Germany and the Germans with too broad a brush. However, in the light of the neverending German whining and lack of honest self-reflection it ought to be seen as a thought-provoking counterpoise. It is certainly disproportional, even unfair, to judge and dismiss the achievement of a man like Claus von Stauffenberg on the strength of some very private biographical detail, but it doesn’t serve any positive purpose either to dismiss John Rosenthal’s article summarily.

I think this is a most interesting and potentially fruitful discussion.

]]> By: Sebastian von Stauffenberg http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-192423 Sebastian von Stauffenberg Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:19:35 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-192423 Allow me to come back once again to John Rosenthals article which sports the interesting because so far unique conclusion Stauffenberg and his inner circle of co-conspirators to have been in many respects more like Hitler than Hitler himself. I suppose this insult has the intention to make his clearly untrue statement more believable, that the conspirators had no interest in the holocaust. Allthough I admit the language of the letter written by Claus to Nina in 1939 is terrible, allthough I also admit, that there were some criminals like Nebe, Wagner and others involved in the plot this does not mean the conspirators were unaware or uninterested in the fate of the jews. Read the protocols of Freisler´s Volksgerichtshof ( people´s court ). Many of the acused conspirators mentioned expressly, that they wanted to kill Hitler because of his murderous extermination politics against the jews. One of them was Clausen´s brother Berthold, who had written the admiitedly stupid article in 1932 you mention. Or investigate e.g.in Wikipedia why Axel von dem Bussche a member of the inner circle of Claus St. was prepared to sacrifice his life to kill Hitler in November 1943 . Did you know Clausen´s brother Alex married in 1939 a Lady of jewish origin, admired by Claus? As I am certain, that you Mr. Rosenthal are neither driven by hatred nor prejudice nor a friend of one sided argumentation, you will correct your conclusions and find your way to a more balanced comparison between Adolf Hitler and Claus Count Stauffenberg. As it is now the human quality of your article is comparable to Clausen´s letter to his wife written in 1939. From there you will agree it would be a dramatically wrong conclusion to write John Rosenthal is more like him than he is. Because he certainly isn´t. Maybe we at least agree on this. Allow me to come back once again to John Rosenthals article which sports the interesting because so far unique conclusion Stauffenberg and his inner circle of co-conspirators to have been in many respects more like Hitler than Hitler himself. I suppose this insult has the intention to make his clearly untrue statement more believable, that the conspirators had no interest in the holocaust. Allthough I admit the language of the letter written by Claus to Nina in 1939 is terrible, allthough I also admit, that there were some criminals like Nebe, Wagner and others involved in the plot this does not mean the conspirators were unaware or uninterested in the fate of the jews. Read the protocols of Freisler´s Volksgerichtshof ( people´s court ). Many of the acused conspirators mentioned expressly, that they wanted to kill Hitler because of his murderous extermination politics against the jews. One of them was Clausen´s brother Berthold, who had written the admiitedly stupid article in 1932 you mention. Or investigate e.g.in Wikipedia why Axel von dem Bussche a member of the inner circle of Claus St. was prepared to sacrifice his life to kill Hitler in November 1943 . Did you know Clausen´s brother Alex married in 1939 a Lady of jewish origin, admired by Claus? As I am certain, that you Mr. Rosenthal are neither driven by hatred nor prejudice nor a friend of one sided argumentation, you will correct your conclusions and find your way to a more balanced comparison between Adolf Hitler and Claus Count Stauffenberg. As it is now the human quality of your article is comparable to Clausen´s letter to his wife written in 1939. From there you will agree it would be a dramatically wrong conclusion to write John Rosenthal is more like him than he is. Because he certainly isn´t. Maybe we at least agree on this.

]]> By: Nora Brinker http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-184174 Nora Brinker Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:11:15 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-184174 "Unbelievable. This thread shows how Germans can be detailed and verbose. And civil." Nobody has ever dared to call me civil. Detailed and verbose is alright, though. “Unbelievable. This thread shows how Germans can be detailed and verbose. And civil.”

Nobody has ever dared to call me civil. Detailed and verbose is alright, though.

]]> By: cottus http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-183727 cottus Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:29:32 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-183727 To Bob Sherman and other idealists who seem oblivious to the risk of a weak and complacent Western culture sinking into Islamic barbarism: Remember the Romans, who, in the end, were no longer able to find the will to manage it all? And remember the dark ages, if you can. Good/Evil is no more than survival/extinction:death. Grapple with it, but try to have some historic perspective, please. Don't fall for the latest feel - good panacea that comes down the pike. Don't get all caught up in platitudes that earn you the immediate knee - jerk affirmation of your friends. It's all rather complicated, won't you agree? To Bob Sherman and other idealists who seem oblivious to the risk of a weak and complacent Western culture sinking into Islamic barbarism:

Remember the Romans, who, in the end, were no longer able to find the will to manage it all? And remember the dark ages, if you can.

Good/Evil is no more than survival/extinction:death. Grapple with it, but try to have some historic perspective, please. Don’t fall for the latest feel – good panacea that comes down the pike. Don’t get all caught up in platitudes that earn you the immediate knee – jerk affirmation of your friends. It’s all rather complicated, won’t you agree?

]]> By: vivo http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-183614 vivo Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:45:34 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-183614 Unbelievable. This thread shows how Germans can be detailed and verbose. And civil. Prost! Unbelievable. This thread shows how Germans can be detailed and verbose. And civil. Prost!

]]> By: JFM http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-182797 JFM Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:26:36 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-182797 I doubt even an Anglo-Saxon could confuse heiliges and geheimes and, I cannot believe that, the people who heard it, that is Germans, that is people who had been trained since they were two years old into picking apart such similar sounds as schliessen and schiessen or nicht and nichts, could confuse heiliges and geheimes I doubt even an Anglo-Saxon could confuse heiliges and geheimes and, I cannot believe that, the people who heard it, that is Germans, that is people who had been trained since they were two years old into picking apart such similar sounds as schliessen and schiessen or nicht and nichts, could confuse heiliges and geheimes

]]> By: Nora Brinker http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-182765 Nora Brinker Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:31:54 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-182765 "But, as so happens, the declined adjectives *heiliges* and *geheimes* are also phonetically similar: not as much as “sacred” and “secret”, but certainly a lot more than *geheimvoll* and *heilig* (Steve’s proposed equivalents)." Put like that, it makes sense. And thank you for your kind words regarding my blog. “But, as so happens, the declined adjectives *heiliges* and *geheimes* are also phonetically similar: not as much as “sacred” and “secret”, but certainly a lot more than *geheimvoll* and *heilig* (Steve’s proposed equivalents).”

Put like that, it makes sense.

And thank you for your kind words regarding my blog.

]]> By: Isdor http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/valkyrie-and-the-myth-of-the-good-german/comment-page-2/#comment-182676 Isdor Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:44:52 +0000 http://pajamasmedia.com/?p=43509#comment-182676 Cedarford, You said "Hitler youth and young Zionists working hand-in-hand erecting tents and building machine shops and industrial skills, farming skills shops…" Can you provide a source? and be more specific? I am curious. Cedarford,

You said “Hitler youth and young Zionists working hand-in-hand erecting tents and building machine shops and industrial skills, farming skills shops…”
Can you provide a source? and be more specific? I am curious.

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