Pajamas Media

75 Comments

1. David Thomson:

“Now what about those foolish CEOs, flittering around in their fleet of private jets while steadfastly refusing to build what they must know we want to buy?”

What about the ridiculously high CAFE standards imposed on the auto-makers by the politicians? It is interesting how this question is being ignored. The government has essentially forced then to build cars deemed unpopular by consumers.

“Any other first world country would make a reasonable bet with an important industry and back the loans.”

No first world country should ignore the economic doctrine of moral hazard. Politicians should not be telling auto executives how to run their business. These companies need to endure the cleansening effect of Chapter 11. This is the best way to clear the decks and start anew—especially in regards to their perverse relationship with the UAW.

Dec 13, 2008 - 4:04 am 2. Tom:

If everything is so great, why are the big 3 in bigger trouble than the rest of automakers?

The UAW.

Kill the UAW and get compensation in line with what the industry and customers will support, and the US Auto Industry survives, AND THRIVES.

And for crying out loud, move the plants south.

I lived in SE MI. It is a huge cesspool.

Dec 13, 2008 - 4:08 am 3. SAF:

I’ve owned Buicks for years while many of my friends have owned foreign vehicles. I have had far less trouble and far less maintenance costs than any of them, Toyota Camry owners included. As just one example all my friends had to have their timing belts replaced as a maintenance item at great cost. Not on the Buick.

Detroit indeed has problems, but it is not the vehicles. The same mentality that thinks America is a bad place thinks things made in America are bad.

Detroit needs to restructure but it won’t succeed until we stop hating ourselves.

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:04 am 4. Perry:

American-anything will not get a fair shake politically from “our” liberal internationalist media.

I wholeheartedly agree many American cars are great. In fact, I own a 2008 Caddy CTS and I love it. It is simply a fabulous car.

The US automaker’s woes can be summed up by the following:

Last year GM sold 9.3 million vehicles.
Last year Toyota sold 9.3 million vehicles.
GM lost $34 billion.
Toyota MADE $17 billion.

What differentiates GM’s situation from Toyota’s?

3 letters:

U A W

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:12 am 5. Valerie:

Finally.

Nobody wants to mention that fuel efficiency, overall economy and cleanliness of these cars has improved marvelously. The reason why we have people trying to redefine carbon dioxide as a pollutant is because our cars and power generators have improved so greatly.

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:32 am 6. Bill in NY:

Brian, you may be slightly biased, as you do have a bit of vested interest in the status quo… but here’s the beef: a company that’s burning $5 billion per month (GM, according to Mr. Wagoner himself this month in DC) and asking for taxpayer money to keep them in business, has no right to pay executives the money they are being paid for running their companies into bankruptcy… why not go seek private investment? You know why not… private investors are not stupid enough to lend their money only to see it burned away. I believe the big three do in fact have many valuable assets, so I agree with you there. However, in a capitalist world, when assets are mismanaged, bankruptcy provides for someone who recognizes the value of the underperforming assets to come in and buy those assets and produce a profitable business from those assets (NOT government for God’s sake… do we really want to have an “overseer” i.e. Christopher Dodd, the same finance committee chairman on the list of ‘friends of Angelo’ who managed to “oversee” our way into regulating banks to lend to people who couldn’t afford to pay their mortgages?)… you have a very tough sell to convince me, and I think most Americans who are paying the bills for these corporate bailouts funded by taxpayers, that this is either necessary or the right thing to do… sorry about the possibility that your gig may be coming to and end with the big three… but if you really think the bailout is such a good idea, maybe you are in a position to round up some venture capital funding and buy up some of those assets in the coming bankruptcy.

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:46 am 7. Jay:

It’s not just initial quality that appeals to consumers, it’s longevity-what will the car look/drive like 7 or more years down the road? It’s here that Detroit fails badly. I’ve owned a succession of BMWs and Mercedes for the last 40 years. I currently drive a 2001 BMW 5-series that looks like it just came off the showroom floor. My Mercedes is a 1989 300E just barely beginning to show a little rust (after 19 Cleveland winters); the interior is still immaculate. No American car I’ve ever owned looks as good after 4-5 years. At seven years, they’re junk.

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:47 am 8. Parabellum:

The problem is the UAW contracts. The Big Three can’t afford to pay workers over $70.00/hour (including benefits) when Honda and Nissan are paying about $50.00.

Dec 13, 2008 - 6:00 am 9. Thinking Person:

Here’s 22 pounds of what IS the automakers problem……. http://laborpains.org/2008/12/12/22-pounds-uaw-rules-and-regulations/

Dec 13, 2008 - 6:08 am 10. Mark E:

“industry average of 118 reported problems per 100 vehicles”

— It is axiomatic that for every reported complaint, there are at least 10 problems that are not reported.

Should you really be proud that the average of your products has an admitted failure rate of greater than 1 per item (1.18 failures per product actually)?

Do you realize that you are admitting that you cannot make a product without a problem that pisses off your customers enough that they will go to the effort to report it to a 3rd party?

Especially as you go to length to point out, this 100% faulty product situation is just the “inital qualit?”. Yes what does happen
“after a few years”? Does the situation get as bad as, what 2 problems that are bad enough to report to JD Powers for every car?

Also, “Audi, Nissan, and Subaru were all nearly dead in North America before they staged product and marketing comebacks”. Funny, I guess I must be too young to remember a massive goverment pay-off when those companies restaged themselves. Or do they do it using their own money?

And BTW, your line “D.C. wrangles over what pot of money to pick from” should read ‘what TAXPAYER’S POCKET to pick from’.

FWIW, I have purchased my last GM, Ford or Chrysler car.

I will not voluntarily support blackmailers.

Dec 13, 2008 - 6:32 am 11. Increase Mather:

I don’t doubt that your’re right about the quality issue. Problem is, too many of us bought US cars in the seventies and eighties that didn’t run…switched to Japanese cars that did…and have never gone back.

I’m on my second Camry…just change the oil and it goes for 150,000 miles. The US manufacturers are going to have to entice millions like me back.

How can they do it? I’m a happy camper.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:04 am 12. Ursa Major:

My greatest fear, which I believe will be realized under the Obama administration, is that General Motors will become Government Motors with political hacks making decisions that should be left to the market system.

Do we really want an environmental whacko like Carol Browner dictating what vehicles GM must make? Do we really believe that the incoming Secreatry of Energy knows anything about mass manufacturing despite being a Nobel Laureate?

Do we really want the behind-the-scenes influence of a failure like Al Gore bending the ear of the President?

Are we really ready to see our standard of living sacrificed for the sake of tyrants in South America, Africa and elsewhere who hold their citizens hostage to their Swiss bank accounts?

I think not. But it is promising to be a very rough road ahead for our great country, a country that has done more for the rest of the world than any other nation in recorded history.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:45 am 13. Saltherring:

I agree with several of the above posters that the UAW is what is driving American auto manufacturers to bankruptcy.

I wouldn’t buy a Japanese car. Front-wheel drive cookie cutters don’t appeal to me. The German cars I’ve owned were well-designed and built from a mechanical perspective, but the electronics and electro-mechanical components seem somewhat crude and defect-prone.

I’ve purchased two American-made vehicles inthe last three years. The Jeep (Chrysler) SUV had inital electronic and programming issues, but has been very reliable since (50,000 mi). The GM truck (one-ton commercial flatbed) has had zero problems in 39,000 miles.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:56 am 14. christian:

As an American who lives and works in Europe for an American corportation , I’m watching in fascination what the media in the States is saying about the big three and I think they are way off-base. For work, I drive a new Ford Mondeo station wagon with a 1.9 liter turbo diesel engine that is outstanding. Why can’t they sell this in the States ? My wife drives an Opel (GM) Zaffira minivan also turbo diesel and that is also outstanding. CAFE ? Credit crunch ?I think the federal govt regs are as much to blame for the current problems of the auto industry as the UAW. By the way my personal car is an 07 Jeep Grand Cherokee, I love it.

Dec 13, 2008 - 8:07 am 15. bill:

My personal experience is that American cars suck. I’m sorry, I really am. I owned a ‘73 Nova with a 350, a ‘67 Mustang with a 289, a Chevy Lumina van, and now a 2001 Ford Focus. They all had serious structural problems. I now own a Mitsubishi Montero and it’s a joy to drive and own. I think letting the “big” 3 die and allowing a new phoenix to rise from the ashes is the only way. That’s the way capitalism is supposed to work. I love this country and we need to prune the branches to keep our system intact. Please don’t hate me.

Dec 13, 2008 - 8:17 am 16. The Historian:

IS LIBERAL CALIFORNIA THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG?
The country might be able to preview it’s future in the current mess on the left coast:

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2008/12/california-liberals-utopia.html

Dec 13, 2008 - 9:18 am 17. Ann:

I think part of the problem is just perception-American cars just aren’t considered cool. I have a Chevrolet Malibu 2002 with about 150,000 miles on it and it runs very well. Whenever I mention this fact in car discussions, people either ignore me or infer that I’m exaggerating. Interestingly, I’m reading the newst P.D. James mystery-set in England, and of course, P.D. James is British-and she has one of the suspects driving a Ford Focus, which is described a reliable vehicle!

Dec 13, 2008 - 9:19 am 18. AnninCA:

Every company has lemons, but these 3 had mostly lemons. And if you’re one who got stuck? You never forget.

Dec 13, 2008 - 9:36 am 19. Gerald McInvale:

While I have some reservations about the domestic products of the “Big 3″, I don’t think that product design, development and manufacturing quality are the paramount issues. Over many years when there was little foreign competition in the U.S. Market, the management of the U.S. Automobile companies did a terrible job of Labor Relations management and channels of distribution. The United Auto Workers through strikes and threats of strikes secured compensation contracts and work rules that are totally unrealistic in a competitive marketplace. I was a manufacturing plant manager in Ohio in the mid 70’s near the Lordstown G.M. facility. G.M. started janitorial employees at a higher wage than we paid electricians. In addition they had very restrictive work rules, twice as many holidays, 95% “sub pay” for laid off workers, etc. etc. Auto industry executives have simply never had the fortitude to resist the UAW and now those errors have compounded as the foreign manufactures have substantially lower costs. It is unreasonable to expect taxpayers to “bail out” these companies when even the supposedly improved UAW future contracts will still leave GM et al in an uncompetitive position. In addition to those problems, the CAFE regulations do not facilitate the importation of the more economical European designs of Ford and GM as those cars “don’t count” against the fuel efficiency regulations – an obvious carrot given to the UAW in exchange for it’s political support of the Washington crowd. So GM and Ford can’t use their best vehicles ato meet standards and most manufacture unprofitable vehicles to stay in the U.S. Market. If that doesn’t change, no amount of loans will help.

Dec 13, 2008 - 9:57 am 20. Tak'hirn'hirn'hir:

There is a giant poker game going on.

The car companies have made choices for at least three decades between the hard road and the soft road. We all know what road they choose most of the time and today all those bad choices have come home to roost. The financial crisis may have shortened the time it took to get to the edge of the cliff but that was the destination all along.

The companies need to dump all their pension and medical baggage on the taxpayers, go bankrupt and start with a clean slate. Use the steelworkers scenario. It will be cheaper than the British auto industry model of slow, drawn out, but politically comfortable wasting away at huge cost to the nation.

Keep Chev-Caddy and cull lots of dealers. Put Chrysler to sleep. Hire young workers and let them know the days of the UAW saying Boo! and executives crapping their pants are over.

If the product is value for money, and the management and workers are competent, and the government doesn’t start meddling, success is a given.

Dec 13, 2008 - 10:10 am 21. MKSTach:

We should al be aware that Milo Minderbinder is building a syndicate The new M&M Enterprises will take our tax dollars to save auto makers by buying Egyptian cotton. It would be unpatriotic to not eat the cotton. If we can survice our share will be enormous!

Dec 13, 2008 - 11:48 am 22. chuck,:

I suspect what’s going on here takes us to who the real Obama is.

It’s not particularly the economy; he’s appointed “safe” caretakers; it’s not foreign policy or the war–more centrist caretakers. No, what makes our Savior tick is the fact that even the Oval Office isn’t grand enough. He wants to be the leader, morally at least, of the planet. To do this it’s necessary to make the USA a good citizen of the earth, which means setting an example of responsible energy use to the world . What better place to start than by making to our broken car industry an offer they can’t refuse, which is a bailout in exchange for obedience to the Department of Energy and its vision for our glorious future? “Detroit! Front and Center! All cars will now be made out of bamboo and they will run on bird-wind! Understand?” (Big 3 in chorus): Yessuh,

The run of the mill democrat politicians may not fully understand this divine mission; they’re just happy that the UAW can stay in business. Whether they’re making gas hogs or tofu fume sippers, who cares?

So the environmentalists are happy; the rust belt is happy; the Dem party is one big happy family; the USA is taught its place; Obama is God. What’s not to like here?

Dec 13, 2008 - 12:10 pm 23. AnninCA:

Gerald, I have never bought a car due to the labor relations. I have bought a car because it didn’t start to rattle within 15,000 miles.

I don’t understand why the “other auto industry” in our country builds sound cars, but Michigan/Detroit builds so many lemons.

That’s got to be an issue of R&D. It has nothing to do with labor.

Dec 13, 2008 - 12:45 pm 24. AnninCA:

Obama just wants to be the true first AA president and not screw that up too badly.

LOL*

Simple.

Dec 13, 2008 - 12:51 pm 25. chuck,:

AA? Didn’t know he had had a drinking problem.

Dec 13, 2008 - 1:04 pm 26. myth buster:

I don’t know about a drinking problem, but he did once have a drug problem, and to my knowledge, he still smokes.

Dec 13, 2008 - 1:31 pm 27. Mike:

Quality in American made cars is a mixed bag. I learned long ago to buy extended warranties on any American made vehicle. Now that’s an ad-on expense that I feel I shouldn’t have to bear. Yes Detroit, you have quality problems. Here are my experiences.

First car I ever owned was a 57 Ford Fairlane. It was a dog! The next one was a 57 Chevy and it ran forever and withstood a lot of abuse. The only non American made car I ever owned was a “66 VW Beetle. Used very little gas and ran for 200,000 miles. Traded it in for nearly half of what I paid for it. Not a bad deal. I traded it in for a 72 Plymouth Scamp. It started falling apart at 50,000 miles. Got a Ford LTD and it ran great but the Taurus I traded it in for left me stranded out of town for 3 days because the computer module went out. I drove Pontiac Grand Ams for 6 years. They ran good but the interiors started falling apart after 3 years. I got a 98 Chevy 1/2 ton brand new. I still have it at 160,000 miles, runs good. But…the intake manifold gasket blew 10,000 miles after the warranty went out and guess who had to pay for the repairs?? Yep, you got it. I didn’t buy an extended warranty on it. I bought a very low mileage 97 Mercury Grand Marquis in 2003. It was the nicest riding car I ever owned but the coolant crossover blew in it just after the warranty went out, no recall and the alternator went out at 40,000 miles…thank God for extended warranties. I now have a 2004 Crown Vic. Runs great, very comfortable and gets 28 to 31 miles a gallon on the hiway but…I have had to use the extended warranty 2 times already. The one American made vehicle I have that has truly been worth the money is a 79 Chevy 1/2 ton, over 300,000 miles and still ticking.

The bottom line for the Big 3 is, make good reliable cars that people can afford and get decent mileage, warranty the damn things for 100,000 miles and treat your customers like customers instead of cattle. By the way, the Chevy Volt is a great step in the right direction. My 2 cents anyway.

Dec 13, 2008 - 1:35 pm 28. Gilligan:

I am still pissed off about my 1978 Chevy Malibu. Every single thing that I hated about that car was the result of a decision by the people at General Motors. That is why I have never bought another thing from those people.

Despite that, I continued to buy Ford and Chrysler products. I am quite happy with Ford products I have bought over the years.

The thing is, in 2001 when that UAW boss said that a Marine Corps reserve unit could not park their cars in his parking lot, my loyalty to American cars evaporated.

If an American car can compete on price, features and quality with a foreign maker, they will also be considered but they get no “American made” points any more.

Oh, yeah. THere is also this:

http://bloggingredneck.blogspot.com/2008/12/2215-pages-of-inefficiency-brought-to.html

Dec 13, 2008 - 1:44 pm 29. Saltherring:

AnninCA says “That’s got to be an issue of R&D. It has nothing to do with labor.”

You apparently have no understanding of free market enterprise. I will attempt to educate you. A company can invest only so much money in developing, producing and marketing a product. Management, labor, R&D, raw materials, facilities, etc., all factor into the ultimate cost to produce a product. If your competition has lower cost for materials, or labor, or taxes, he has a distinct edge. Non-union, Japanese-owned plants located in ‘right to work” states pay similar wages but without the utopian benefits of UAW plants, and thus have significantly lower operating costs. This allows the Japanese to spend more on R&D, or to maintain profitability in lean times.

Dec 13, 2008 - 2:41 pm 30. Maggie:

I am driving a GM SUV with no problems. However, next time I buy I will consider the politicians funded by UAW and spend my dollars on a non union vehicle.

Dec 13, 2008 - 2:42 pm 31. Smokey:

Question: If you lost your job because of bad decisions made by the company, would the government bail you out?

The answer, of course, is: No.

Why should taxpayers in the other 49 states bail out Detroit?

A bailout is Bad Business. Don’t do it!

Dec 13, 2008 - 3:45 pm 32. Donna V.:

I think Jay #7 makes a very good point. I am now driving a 1997 Lexus I bought for a song from my brother-in-law 2 years ago. That was one of the best buys I’ve ever made. It has 220,000 miles on it and I haven’t had any problems with it at all and it handles beautifully. I definitely can not say the same thing about older model American cars I’ve owned. Of all of them, Buicks always seemed the most reliable.

Dec 13, 2008 - 3:51 pm 33. JayLudes:

Regarding rattles/squeaks/wind noise as an issue of labor vs. R&D, those are entirely production issues. The driving factor is metal fit. If the sheet netal isn’t put together right, the car will have rattles, squeaks, and excessive wind noise. Poorly assembled sheet metal is a function of the maintenance of the tooling that puts it together, plain and simple.

The problems arise when metal or parts are damaged or out of spec. The tooling is initially set up to be very unforgiving. Over time, lazy maintenance leads to more things being forced through, passing the problem down the line.

The mindset within the Detroit 3 is always “it’s management’s fault”, before the question is even asked! Not making production numbers? Management’s fault! (even though maintenance personnel assigned to the area were out back having a smoke for 15 minutes while the line needed weld caps changed). Metal not fitting right? Management’s Fault! (even though production personnel are beating the metal with their load assist).

I hear a lot of nonsense from the Talking Heads, labor apologists, and big-business-is-eeeeeeevil crowd, none of whom have ever stepped foot into a production facility.

I’ve been through a lot of product launches over the years, in and out of many Detroit-3 plants as contract engineering support. Their job is EASY. There is no sense of ownership or pride in a job well done; everyone just wants to know what’s in it for them.

The attitude has changed a lot in the trenches these last few months, but there is still an unbelievable amount of dead weight; people who show up simply to collect a paycheck – LITERALLY.

And regarding the 118/100 problem/vehicle ratio: consider the vast array of components inside a vehicle. Also consider the truly unfortunate who purchase a poorly built car (one of the previously mentioned vehicles that were “pushed down the line, to let someone else deal with it”, until the someone else was unfortunately the consumer). How many problems do you think are reported on one lemon alone? And then consider the extremely picky consumer, the one who just has to find something to complain about else their day isn’t complete.

Thanks for your time.

Dec 13, 2008 - 4:47 pm 34. Gozer the Carpathian:

Well I’ve bought two brand new cars in my car buying life time. I’m 1 and 1 right now.

My first was a Pontiac Aztec. (Yeah yeah I know dumpster with wheels) It came off the lot with a Check Engine Light on and my problems didn’t end there. In the end I eventually traded it in for my current Vehicle.

My 2006 Chevy Colorado with the Inline 5 engine. I love this truck because it’s not too big, nor those little micro trucks from before. It’s perfect for me and has given me next to no issues. (I had the sunroof which I didn’t really want in the first place get stuck and that’s it.)

So yeah the products are very competitive, it’s all the stupid government regulations and the unions that are REALLY hurting the auto industry.

Dec 13, 2008 - 4:55 pm 35. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Brian Douglas
RE: Really??!?!?

Detroit’s automakers have many problems, but poor quality….not among them. — Brian Douglas

Then please explain why most of the vehicles I see abandoned on the side of the road are American made.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Denial is not a river in Egypt.]

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:26 pm 36. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. My 1984 Nissan Stanza went 298,000 before it became uneconomically repairable. AND it would get 40 mpg on the highway if the gasoline was good.

Furthermore, the 1988 Nissan Stanza that I bought used in 1996 stood up to an ‘argument’ with an 18-wheeler on I-25 one night. And it was STILL street-legal.

Dec 13, 2008 - 5:29 pm 37. Shef Rogers:

Reading between the lines of this article, it seems Chrysler cars haven’t upped their quality.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:07 pm 38. Tow Operator:

Hey, Pelto, please explain why most of the vehicles I see abandoned on the side of the road are Japanese-made.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:12 pm 39. Ken Mitchell:

One hesitates to make decisions in 2008 or 2009 based on data that’s 30+ years old, so I won’t mention cars that were manufactured before 1980.

I purchased a 1990 Plymouth Acclaim. It ran OK, but the paint started peeling off right about the time that the warranty ran out. When I parked it in front of the dealership to buy a replacement part, the salesmen asked me to move it into the back so it wasn’t visible from the street. The part? A water pump. I went through three water pumps in 9 years.

I junked the Acclaim, and bought a 2000 Mitsubishi Galant. It still looks fine, and runs well at 105K miles.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:37 pm 40. v for victory:

Not much of a rundown.

I would like to have seen more of the quality numbers. The author appears to have done a pick-and-choose with the J.D. Power numbers, enough to make a good case at first glance, but when it comes to crunching numbers, I am from Missouri!

And nothing was mentioned about resale values. I am not an economist, but isn’t the resale price a pretty good market indicator for quality, too?

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:40 pm 41. Ronnie Schreiber:

“I am still pissed off about my 1978 Chevy Malibu. Every single thing that I hated about that car was the result of a decision by the people at General Motors. That is why I have never bought another thing from those people.”

Do people say, “I had a crappy Kenmore vacuum cleaner 30 years ago so I’ll never walk into a Sears store again”?

Was anybody now working at GM there 30 years ago? “Those people” have long since retired.

Meanwhile, go ahead and buy a new iPod when the old one is too expensive to fix. After all, it’s got a bigger hard drive and plays video and comes in such cool colors. And I thought it was Detroit who operated on a business model of planned obsolescence.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:46 pm 42. Ronnie Schreiber:

Why should taxpayers in the other 49 states bail out Detroit?

How about becauase the federal gov’t has taken $200 billion dollars out of Michigan and transferred it to states like Alabama? Over $800 billion of the industrial Midwest’s wealth has been transferred to the South and Southwest. Michigan taxpayers subsidized the incentives for big Dick, Shelby’s beloved Mercedes, Hyundai, Honda and Toyota plants.

Dec 13, 2008 - 7:50 pm 43. Gilligan:

Do people say, “I had a crappy Kenmore vacuum cleaner 30 years ago so I’ll never walk into a Sears store again”?

Why yes they do. I do anyway. Do you say, “The last thing I bought from this vendor was a piece of crap but maybe I’ll have better luck this time”?

If you don’t learn anything from an expensive, painful experience, maybe you are just not capable of learning.

GM sold me a crappy car and judging by the number of Toyotas, Hondas, Nisans, Subarus, Kias, etc on the road I suspect that I am not the only one that happened to. I drive a fair number of rental cars when I travel for work. None of the GM products has impressed me as something that I would like to own. Now GM says that they are going to go out of business if they don’t get bailed out. It seems to me that if you make products that people don’t want to own and you can’t make money doing it you are supposed to go out of business.

You are free to buy what ever vehicle you want. Just don’t ask me to subsidize your preference.

Dec 13, 2008 - 10:30 pm 44. poul:

speaking of anecdotes, my extended family owns 5 fords, ages 20 to 3, all of excellent quality, drive like a dream, handle well, and could be fixed for a dime.

the reason ford and gm don’t bring to usa their excellent economic turbo-diesel cars, is that the diesel fuel in usa is taxed through the roof compared with gas; while in europe it’s just the opposite. it is unfair to blaim american car companies for the idiocy of the american government.

Dec 14, 2008 - 1:44 am 45. will:

“Over $800 billion of the industrial Midwest’s wealth has been transferred to the South and Southwest.”

Ronnie, pray tell, how was this done? From where this Southerner sits, it was from Midwesterners who saw the writing on the rust belt wall & moved (taking their money with them) to where unions and & gov’t won’t screw with businessmen like they do in union land.

Dec 14, 2008 - 2:29 am 46. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Tow Operator
RE: Why Japanese?

Hey, Pelto, please explain why most of the vehicles I see abandoned on the side of the road are Japanese-made. — Tow Operator

Either because you’re a WWII Pacific Theater of Operations vet or you live and work in Japan.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 14, 2008 - 2:40 am 47. Sarah Bellum:

This writer is insane.

I’m one of those buyers of American cars from more than ten years ago when, we’re told, quality improved. Even if I actually believed quality improved, I don’t care. I will never buy from Detroit – the cars I was sold were rolling, rattling piles of junk and were VERY expensive to repair. I honestly can’t remember how many alternators I had to buy for my Fords (yes, plural) – but it was an HUGE, unbelievable number.

These cars are, by the way, based on a technology from the 19th century – Detroit should have long since led us far away from the gasoline engine. Leadership from Detroit was non-existent.

Gasoline has also been a national security issue for over 30 years and Detroit, again, has provided exactly zero leadership.

Tens of millions of car buyers making tens of millions of purchasing decisions over many years’ time have collectively determined that Detroit is dead. Only fools and our government would reverse the consumers’ correct decision with a bailout.

If there is a bailout – and I assume there will be – I would urge everyone to boycott Detroit.

Dec 14, 2008 - 5:06 am 48. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Or perhaps your father was killed in WWII by the Japanese.

However, in my 200 mile sojourn on the interstate system yesterday, I saw three abandoned vehicles. All of which were of American, i.e., Detroit Big Three, make. Not one of the ones seen was of Japanese origin.

And, just to add sauce to your goose….

….the last automotive malfunction I was involved with that required towing was a GMC Jeep. And the one before that was another GMC Jeep.

So….Go Blow Tow Joe….

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 14, 2008 - 5:10 am 49. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Sarah Bellum
RE: Heh

If there is a bailout – and I assume there will be – I would urge everyone to boycott Detroit. — Sarah Bellum

All that would result in is ANOTHER ‘bail out’ at the expense of everyone who actually works for a living.

Why? Because politicians love slaves more than they do liberty. And voting welfare slaves are the best form. Which brings to mind that maybe the Founding Fathers were onto something when THEY thought that only property owners should be allowed to vote.

And the downward spiral to Jerry Pournelle’s vision of Co-Dominion America continues.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The American republic will endure until their Congress discovers that they can bribe the people with their own money. -- Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835]

Dec 14, 2008 - 5:50 am 50. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. I suspect that Joe Haldeman had a touch of the same vision as Jerry Pournelle, in his novel The Forever War.

Dec 14, 2008 - 5:51 am 51. LeighB:

Although Chrysler is struggling a bit more than the other two, I have to say how much I love my Jeep Liberty. And the previous one. And the Cherokee before it. I live in a cold climate and 4WD is a must in the winter. I love the Jeep brand. It was the first “car” my parents could afford and I think it was always my Dad’s favorite. I have found them to be reliable, safe and so much fun to drive, in the city or on the road. I want American car companies to survive and thrive. I believe in American quality, it is making a comeback.

Dec 14, 2008 - 6:47 am 52. Saltherring:

JayLudes @ 33 says: “Regarding rattles/squeaks/wind noise as an issue of labor vs. R&D, those are entirely production issues. The driving factor is metal fit. If the sheet netal isn’t put together right, the car will have rattles, squeaks, and excessive wind noise. Poorly assembled sheet metal is a function of the maintenance of the tooling that puts it together, plain and simple.”

Not that simple. Design also enters into the squeak, rattle and wind noise equation, as does material quality. Poorly designed component interfaces and substandard latches, hinges and rubber seals often do not affect initial quality reports, but greatly impact long-term customer satisfaction. Manufacturers struggling to attain (or maintain) profitability often sacrifice design/engineering hours and material quality in the “fit and finish” realm in an effort to balance the books. American manufacturers seem to be more prone to this than do foreign automakers.

Dec 14, 2008 - 7:48 am 53. Lisa:

I LOVE my 2 yr old Ford Escape Hybrid; in fact, I prefer to drive it over our 4 yr old BMW. My car gets great gas mileage, is extremely practical and comfortable, and frankly it’s cute.

It’s been in the shop twice since we got it… both times due to my husband’s driving. Our BMW was in the shop three times in the last year alone… to replace seals on the windows (twice) and when the alternator went out.

What I just can’t fathom is the number of people here to seem to believe that hardworking people shouldn’t have a decent retirement with healthcare. Why are people advocating for lowering wages of workers? Don’t you realize that in the end it will just lower your own wages too?

Dec 14, 2008 - 8:07 am 54. Gilligan:

Was anybody now working at GM there 30 years ago? “Those people” have long since retired.

And most of the labor cost disparity between American workers at GM plants and American workers at Toyota plants is due to payments for the retirement funds and health benefits for those GM retirees who built that POS 30 years ago.

I was thinking more in practical terms but now that you point out a GM bankruptcy would be revenge on the very people who built that car, the idea looks sweet. Thanks, Ronnie. Now, instead of being indifferent to the fate of GM, I am actively hoping that GM will fail.

Dec 14, 2008 - 8:16 am 55. newscaper:

I have a Ford F-150 that just hit 10yrs on Halloween (’99 bought in fall ‘98). I’ve been quite satisfied with it. I’ve had a couple out-of-warranty repairs – an alternator and an idle air control valve, but I’ve been fine other than routine maintenance. Now mine is an odd case because it has low miles — still only about 70k, which makes evaluating my situation because I’m off the maintenance charts, as certain things suffer from age/time somewhat independent of miles.

My wife’s 2001 Toyota Sienna (~80k) has had its similar share of moderate (though unwelcome of course) out of warranty repairs.

I am NOT from a truck owning family and certainly no Ford partisan. In our experience there hasn’t been effectively much difference. My wife’s family has been 100% Toyota since the late 70s (as anyone who bought American then can sympathize with).

Funny how those who support prescrip drug reimportation won;t get off their asses to modify regs to allow Ford & GM to bring some of their most successful small car designs back home (I was unaware of US taxes on diesel stifling adoption of diesel.)

[relevant aside]
I think people knee-jerk citing experiences with late 70s-early 80s Big 3 crap cars *now* is a phenomenon similar to the way bootleg MP3 downloaders still justify it by citing “CDs cost almost $20 bucks and there’s only one or two good songs on them.”

It’s an anachronistic self-serving rationalization for stealing (BTW I have d/led some music you simply can’t get anymore, or that I bought on vinyl long ago but which never made it to legit digital.) Their ‘facts’ are no longer true/relevant and haven’t been for some time — new release CDs are usually about $12, with even lower promos, older catalog is frequently very cheap too, and on the individual song front, you can get higher bit rate MP3s without any DRM for a buck a pop now at Amazon and elsewhere, one at a time.

No, the US

Funny how new car plants are still getting built here in the US — but just not in Michigan or by GM et al. (Hint: I’m in Alabama). The UAW, and the Mgt from an earlier era with little competition (when they could always pass the UAW burden on to the consumer, who had no other option) who mortgaged their companies’ futures in the name of ‘good labor relations’, deserve most of the blame.

Dec 14, 2008 - 9:03 am 56. Mitch:

Just a couple of comments, not necessarily related to each other:
1. GM screwed me with the “morning sickness” issue with their rack-and-pinion system. They finally owned up to the problem and compensated owners with less than 50,000 miles on their cars. We had 53,000 and were SOL. It will be a long time before they see another dollar from my little supply.
2. Nissan did it to me with a tinfoil aluminum head paired with a bad temperature sensor for the fan. I was able to get the head machined flat again (just barely, as the thing was pretty thin to begin with), but Nissan is off my list for good.
3. The Ford and Chrysler products I’ve owned have been fine cars. Unless they take my money for no value in the form of a bailout, I will return to them. If they do, I’ve also had good experiences with Toyota.
4. The domestic marques have to have their CAFE numbers calculated separately for domestic-built and re-badged imports. This was to allow the UAW to participate in making high mileage, low cost cars at a loss in order to make the CAFE numbers. If Congress is serious, they will allow the CAFE numbers to be calculated for the fleet overall. The UAW will no doubt object.
5. The domestic makers also need to figure out how to speed up their design-to-build time. If it takes Detroit 5 or 6 years to get a new line of car going, they will be 2 – 3 years behind Japan permanently. Look up the OODA loop to see why this is important.

Dec 14, 2008 - 9:09 am 57. ic:

The only foreign car we have driven was a second hand Honda Civic which was slammed by a bigger car when we left the gas station because the car was too small, the oncoming driver didn’t see us.

Otherwise, we drive only Big 3 cars. We loved the Ford Explorer when it first came out. The Dodge Caravan’s air condition came alive as soon as we turned it on in 90+ degree temperature in Chicago. The Chervolet Blazer, however, was a tin can. Then we had two Grand Cherokees to plough thru snow in the winters. Two weeks ago, we bought a Ford Escape which is the best car we have ever. It costs less than $20,000, has all the gadgets one needs, including power everything, Sirrus radio, bluetooth, sun roof, leather seats, and a new technology protecting against skidding (forgot what it’s called).

Main problem with Big 3 cars: bad press.

Dec 14, 2008 - 10:51 am 58. The Historian:

BIG THREE & UAW: CHANGE BEHAVIOR OR DISAPPEAR
The answer is not bailouts or bridge loans. Without drastic change, the auto industry is a cause without a future:

http://greensrealworld.blogspot.com/2008/12/us-auto-industry-cause-without-future.html

Dec 14, 2008 - 3:46 pm 59. David P:

Approaching the worst economy since the 1930’s we can expect corporate casualties to reach catastrophic levels unparalleled in our time.

Dec 14, 2008 - 3:47 pm 60. Robert F:

Thanks for writing this. I have been happy with my 30+ years of American cars. My favorite is my 1983 Ford F100, bought new and driven for 25 years without a major repair. I still drive it on an almost daily basis. Think that is a fluke? Consider my 2002 Escape, 110,000 miles. Or before that,my 95 Taurus, 120,000. Going way back, my Maverick, also over 100k. I could add others, but you get the idea.

Dec 14, 2008 - 6:20 pm 61. JayLudes:

Saltherring @ 52 says:

“Manufacturers struggling to attain (or maintain) profitability often sacrifice design/engineering hours and material quality in the “fit and finish” realm in an effort to balance the books. American manufacturers seem to be more prone to this than do foreign automakers”

Disregarding component interfaces, which come from third party suppliers and are hopelessly intertwined (for example, the steering column for a Dodge Caliber is identical to a steering column for the Toyota Corolla) and can cause headaches at the final assembly point, consider that maintenance personnel struggling to attain an extra 30 minutes of crossword puzzle time often sacrifice preventative maintenance hours and equipment quality in an effort to sit in their chairs.

Big 3 maintenance personnel seem to be more prone to this, knowing they can just blame everything on management and are untouchable.

Dec 14, 2008 - 8:22 pm 62. Joe Ferguson:

IT’S ALL ABOUT RED DOTS AND BLACK DOTS;

For YEARS, and still now, Consumer reports ratings on auto durability give all their red dots (good) to Japanese cars, and a couple of Korean and German, and all their black dots (bad) to American makes.

Until Detroit can change that around, and I don’t know if UAW workers and Detroit factories are up to the task, then foggedabotit.

I’m now driving a 2000 Honda CR-V, and plan to keep driving it til 2 or 3 hundred miles. Ask yourself, would you expect to do that with an American brand car?

Dec 14, 2008 - 8:34 pm 63. Joe Ferguson:

Correction: 2 or 3 HUNDRED thousand miles

Dec 14, 2008 - 8:37 pm 64. Spaniard in Texas:

I come from Europe and I have had my fair share of small and rusty Italian Cars.

My best car was an old 81 Ford Fiesta, small economical and fast… when the new Fiesta comes to the U.S.next year Scion is going to be in trouble (they are toy cars anyway).

I have owned only American cars and I like them, my friends with Euro/Japanese cars are having about the same amount of problems as my friends with American cars. The worst car I ever driven was an old Civic which looked it was going to fall apart, but it was probably due to bad maintenance. My next car a Ford Escape.

ALL cars are going to have problems, later or sooner, and American cars are not worse then any other cars.

Dec 14, 2008 - 9:40 pm 65. Neferi the devil chaser:

I will be boycotting any product built by unions or organizations with connections to the Democratic party- this includes GM or Ford cars, Ben and Jerry’s ice cream, Starbuck’s etc. In most cases this is VERY easy to do. It’s a shame events had to take this turn, but such things happen in war.

Dec 15, 2008 - 12:02 am 66. Robert F:

Re: Joe Ferguson.
About the 200,000+ miles. I’ve done it in my F-100 (see comment above yours), and I expect to do it again. So, I have answered your question. Now I ask you to drop your anti-American bias!

Regards,

Robert

p.s.
Consumer Reports ratings are worthless. Years ago, they used to report what owner’s actual out of pocket expenses were and I noticed something interesting. Generally, the owners of “reliable” Japanese brands were paying MORE for maintenance than American owners. For some reason they dropped that statistic and only show their worthless red and black dots.
Other evidence of the flaws in their system can be seen in the disparity that sometimes is seen between two different model cars that come off the same assembly line. This should not happen in statistically valid testing.

Dec 15, 2008 - 5:14 am 67. beloml:

“Detroit needs to restructure but it won’t succeed until we stop hating ourselves.”

Americans don’t hate America. We hate the UAW.

Dec 15, 2008 - 6:27 am 68. G Alston:

#66 RobertF — “Consumer Reports ratings are worthless.”

You’re not keeping your eye on the ball. Detroit’s stuff is improving, true. People do have difficulties with foreign cars as well, true. However, what you’re missing is that the foreign cars are also improving. A Detroit vehicle that can get to 200k is not that unusual NOW, but:

a) in the 80’s this was almost unheard of, at a time when japanese makes were easily reaching 200k and more.
b) is typically accompanied by a lot of parts and quality shop time.

The typical japanese brand doesn’t even seem to reach break-in at 200k by way of comparison. (Yes I’m exaggerating but not by anywhere near as much as you think.) Consumer Reports ratings are not only relevant, but about the most accurate ratings system out there.

But… don’t take MY word for it. Resale values tend to reflect this very thing. A 5 year old Camry sells for a lot closer to the original price than a 5 year old Malibu, and this isn’t the result of a conspiracy.

Dec 15, 2008 - 8:07 am 69. Robert F:

Re: #68 G Alston.

A Detroit vehicle that can get to 200k is not that unusual NOW, but:
a) in the 80’s this was almost unheard of, at a time when japanese makes were easily reaching 200k and more.

Sorry, but that is baloney. To repeat, my 1983 F100 has gone 240K. Chrysler’s slant six engines were renowned for their longevity in taxi and fleet service.
As for early Japanese reliability, another myth. A friend bought an 80’s era Toyota Corona new, the head failed at 50K, a common problem. With any of the early ones, they usually didn’t make it to 200k here in the Northeast, due to rust. As late as the mid 90’s, Honda had to recall cars for serious structural rust. Yet people around here drive their old Mustangs in surprisingly bad weather after all these years, thanks in part to Ford’s pioneering use of galvanized steel in critical areas.
I could go on, but I won’t bother. By the way, I never said ANYTHING about a conspiracy! The reason CU ratings are of little value is because they rely on the owner’s judgment of a serious problem. Two people may have a car that doesn’t start. One may have a blown fuse, the other a blown engine. To both, it is serious and they check the little box on CU’s survey. Not very scientific.
But… don’t take MY word for it. Look around for yourself. If you see something 20+ years old still in regular service, it is probably an F-100. Finally, since you respect CU’s methods, you should also give weight to this CU survey. A few years back, they polled their readers who were driving cars over 10 years and 100K miles. A disproportionate number of respondents replied that their old car was a FORD!!!
Finally, I really don’t have a problem with Japanese cars, my wife owns a Camry – which burns oil by the way, there is a class action suit against Toyota for this. A friend’s Cressida is also an oil burner. My problem is with Japanese car owners!!!

Dec 15, 2008 - 7:15 pm 70. joe buzz:

I was no business major but lets say I was competing against four or five other folks that were also making and selling widgets. After time I find for whatever reason that I am not selling as many widgets as my competitors. What are my options? Two options would be to lower my price…or offer creative financing! If I go the finance route, I run serious risk if the other sectors of the economy tank. GMAC was very profitable for a time. Has any car manufacturer foreign or domestic ever lowered the price of a vehicle?

Dec 16, 2008 - 6:52 am 71. Lynn:

Good article. To those against the Big Three Bailout: If you don’t think we should do it for the American worker….should we do it for the Japanese?

Japan Stocks Rebound on U.S. Auto Rescue Hopes; Shippers Jump
12/15/2008

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=acRjkHyjyJjA&refer=japan

Dec 16, 2008 - 10:22 am 72. Tom Holsinger:

Brian Douglas,

May you drive only Chrysler products for the rest of your life. And it will be shorter.

There was a discussion on the Volokh Conspiracy on this very issue, and the guy who made the same argument you present was forced to admit that Chrysler products were still dreadful. His father-in-law had to sell his Chrysler after his wife refused to ride in it because she was afraid of it.

Dec 16, 2008 - 11:13 am 73. sixfingers:

Simply put.
We should not bail out the Big3.

If the government is going to tell the Big3 how to run their factories.
We need to tell Wall street and the banks how to run their companies.
Who to pay and how much.
The government can dump 50billion into the big3 and I still can not afford a new car.

Dec 16, 2008 - 5:49 pm 74. johnc:

I love my new Mustang GT. Runs great and has great fit and finish, plus it looks like an American muscle car and not a lima bean on four wheels!

Dec 17, 2008 - 9:02 pm 75. johnc:

Robert F,
I had a 1984 Ford F250 and put over 350,000 miles on her. Traded it in and the guy who bought it drove it for several more years!
Your right, look around and see how many older cars (15+ years) are on the road. You will see the majority are American made.

Dec 17, 2008 - 9:07 pm

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