Pajamas Media

175 Comments

1. Francis W. Porretto:

But how could the military develop a usable threat model for jihadism? The first and most important indicator of a threat is the Islamic faith of the subject, the mere mention of which would automatically provoke cries of “racism” and “bigotry.” Atop that, any consideration of Islam as a threat indicator would put the military at odds — extreme odds, at that — with the current Administration, which has all too obviously made pandering to the Muslims one of its top priorities.

There’s no way out of this impasse until Barack Hussein Obama and his lieutenants are forced out of power. But then, President Bush and his acolytes hesitated to give Islam its true coloration too, didn’t they?

Are there any Americans left?

Nov 10, 2009 - 1:53 am 2. Marsh:

Not allowing soldiers to carry weapons on base is another reason why there will be more mass shootings.

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:12 am 3. David Thomson:

Elections have consequences. Every last single president since Ronald Reagan has been a politically correct whack job. It matters not a whit whether they are Republican or Democrat. George W. Bush’s multiculturalist inclinations were bad enough. Barack Obama is merely Bush on steroids. The murder of the thirteen members of the U.S. Army may very well be a culture changer. Countless Americans who are normally indifferent concerning the issues of the day—and often don’t even vote—have had their minds blown. Never before have they heard of a military officer murdering those of lesser rank. It apparently has never previously occurred in American history. The disgraceful behavior of General Casey will not go unnoticed. Things will never again be the same. The Major Hasan atrocity will not be brushed under the rug. Thank God, he still lives. That makes it more difficult to Fahrenheit 451 his existence.

We must get rid of Democrats and moderate Republican politicians. These well-meaning and overly sentimental fools have unwittingly done major damage. Only conservative Republicans normally have their heads on straight on these matters. Someone like Joe Senator Joe Lieberman is a rare exception to the general rule. Remember that the next time you vote.

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:44 am 4. joe:

I served in Iraq twice with the US Army, one for 12 months another for 15 months. These people hate America and our values. They love our money and will pretend to tolerate Americans if it means something financial. This Major Hissan, did not have to be a Officer in the Army, he could have resigned his commision at any time. He did not have to live in America, he has family in the middle east. Why did he hurt Americans families? Why did he kill American Sons, Daughters, Fathers, Mothers? Hatred for American values.

Nov 10, 2009 - 4:28 am 5. Ernie G:

Marsh is right. “Gun-free” zones are the least safe places in America.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:07 am 6. Jack in Silver Spring:

The title of Andrew McCarthy’s book, Willful Blindness, (about the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center) describes perfectly the US Army’s current policy regarding (radical) Islam.

Also Marsh @ #2: spot on.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:11 am 7. jhstuart:

We are at war with elements of Islam as stated in several fatwas and acts carried out under their terms.

We can’t defeat what we fail to name.

With those parameters, consider the following:

1. The Qu’ran is eternal and immutable. Muslims cannot choose or select what verses in the Qu’ran they will respect or follow as they risk being labeled apostates resulting in their punishment and possible death.
2. The Qu’ran is the product of progressive revelation and reportedly revealed to Mohammad over a 13 year period.
3. While ‘immutable’, the Qu’ran has changed through abrogation with many earlier verses replaced by later verses.
4. The last verse ‘revealed’ was Surra 9 which contains the Qu’ran’s most violent scripture.
5. Jihad is strongly associated with and directed by Surra 9. Muslims are obliged and/or compelled to spread the word of Allah through jihad until Islam is the only religion.

MAJ Hasan was not a ‘lone wolf’, a ‘nutjob’ or someone who followed a ‘perverse’ version of Islam. The long and short is that he is a jihadist.

The military in particular, and the civilian world in general needs to understand this expansionist ideology and institute measures to preserve our freedoms and lives.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:21 am 8. Old Soldier:

Marsh & Ernie are right. With every domestic military base essentially a giant gun-free zone once you get past the gate guards (and avoid the armories and rifle ranges), attacks are going to continue.

Personally, I found the base gun bans insulting. I was trusted to travel about other countries – including civilian population areas – with weapons that could level an office building – but I can’t carry a pistol or keep a few rounds for my M16 while I’m at Camp Lejune or Fort Dix.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:44 am 9. Mike2:

1. Francis W. Porretto:

So true, especially your last sentence. If anyone wants to know why both Republicans and Democrats pander to Islam try thinking about Saudi oil and money. The money and how it is handed out is top on the list.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:54 am 10. viet vet:

2. Marsh:

Not allowing soldiers to carry weapons on base is another reason why there will be more mass shootings.

I agree.

But even in a combat zone we had our weapons locked in containers.
The officers claimed it was for our protection,
PTSD or cheating at cards.

I think they feared the troops more than the enemy.

I always carried a home brew pistol,
strictly medicinal purposes.

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:06 am 11. Thomas_L.....:

We’ve gone from a society that rounded up thousands of innocents in WWII to one that won’t even protect itself. From one extreme to the other is not progress.

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:21 am 12. scott:

Obviously the military needs to start watching it’s muzzies. How hard can that be? Easy to get away with it without catching flack for ‘profiling’ as well, as the process can fly under the radar. The military can do lots of things covertly that the civil authorities cannot.

At the same time it might be a good idea to require at least the officers and non-coms to carry loaded side arms on base. One wonders why the military is afraid of guns.

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:50 am 13. no Obama:

The family of the alleged Fort Hood shooter held his mother’s funeral at the same Virginia mosque that two Sept. 11 hijackers attended in 2001,
at a time when a radical imam preached there.

And we thought Bambie’s Rev. Wright was a religious problem?
All talk and no show.

I believe in freedom of religion-

but when that religion preaches killing Americans here in their homes, or an army hospital, it is time to kick their asses back where they came from.

Soon-

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:54 am 14. Trainwreck:

Don’t forget Fort Dix: if not for a sharp-eyed civilian store employee, three jihadi pizza delivery boys would have given us the “Fort Dix Massacre.” Even then, there were apologists blaming the employee for invasion of privacy!

I remember thinking back then that the plot should have gone forward, since it would get our heads out of the sand re the radical islamist threat. But now that an attack HAS taken place at Fort Hood, all those in power and in the MSM want us to believe that this is second hand PTSD and has nothing to do with radical Islam!

WHAT WILL IT TAKE TO GET US TO TAKE ISLAMIC TERRORISM SERIOUSLY????

Would the next shooter have to be photographed with Osama binLaden next to him and a shirt saying “Jihad in progress. I am a Muslim and I am killing infidels for Allah” to get a response?

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:59 am 15. ETAB:

The thing to remember is that the CIC, Obama, does not recognize the existence of terrorism. And certainly not Islamic terrorism.

He’s removed the term of ‘terrorism’ from the current wars in Afghanistan/Iraq, which are not viewed as not anti-terrorist agendas but as ‘overseas contingency operations’. (Contingent on what?]

Instead of ‘terrorist’, we are given the terms of ‘insurgents’. Or ‘militants’. There is no causal descriptive adjective applied to these terms which would provide the ideological reason for their actions, e.g., Islamic.

He goes around the world apologizing for the pre-Obama America, informing one and all that now that He has Arrived, all will be well and there will be no further ‘bad behavior’ by the US that they might feel ‘militant’ about. Thus, he assures us, and them, that the ‘age of terrorism’, which was according to him, a direct result of US Evil, is over.

Then, an Islamic terrorist attack takes place on US soil. On Obama’s watch. His reaction? He appends it as an ‘add-on’ to his wide-grin, shout out at a native conference. And informs everyone that ‘we must not rush to judgment’. Which means…don’t judge.

Remember his own ‘rush to judgment’ in the Gates affair when he first said that he didn’t know the facts but knew that the ‘black man’ was a victim of the ’stupid police’.

How can the military acknowledge Islamic terrorism when the CIC refuses to do so? It’s not only political correctness – and that’s the other major cause of this situation -it’s also the White House’s current rejection of the reality of Islamic terrorism.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:02 am 16. Poor Citizen:

I fully support our withdrawal from Iraq and I am seriously questioning my continued support for our operations in Afghanistan. Our vets are correct. Those people hate us and may never support our efforts….or will they?. Right now? the answer is nada….

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:13 am 17. moho:

Obviously another jihadist below. You’re absolutely right. Its these jihadists, and not the American obsession with going bats^%$ crazy at your place of work, school or favored fast food restaurant, that’s at work here.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,573597,00.html

A gunman was holding a school principal hostage Tuesday at a school in Pine Plains, New York, about 90 miles north of New York City, police and the town supervisor told CNN.

Police have the gunman contained to a room at Stissing Mountain High School and are negotiating, said Pine Plains Town Supervisor Gregg Pulver.

Pulver said he believed the gunman is a parent.

Really, even though our society seems to be coming undone in ribbons of gun-toting violence, and even though these kinds of murderous rampages have become commonplace as people like the readers here look in the mirror one morning and realize they can’t take another day of being a talentless cog in a mediocrity machine, its Islam that you need to worry about.

Your society is falling apart, and so you point the finger everywhere but yourselves. Don’t worry, think about all of the extra jobs created by converting all the street signs to Chinese.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:16 am 18. EnemyoftheState:

The casualties at Fort Hood were caused by political correctness. Islam has declared war on us infidels (read the Koran). Major Hasan should never have been allowed to join the U S Army, he was an enemy combatant. Nor should two muslims be occupying high positions in the Department of Homeland Security, as recently revealed.

During World War II, Americans of Japanese, German and Italian ancestry were regarded with suspicion about their loyalties and even rounded up into camps so they could be controlled. It was a shameful event in our history. With that in perspective, I can not advocate any drastic action against muslim-Americans, but I do not think they should be allowed in the military or the government where they can be exposed to policy making, national secrets, soldier’s lives and the security of the U S.

I read in a news item this morning that Hasan predicted in a fiery speech a couple of years ago that muslims in the military would do this. His superiors chose to take no action against him because of political correctness. They need to face a court martial along with him. Think back to World War II. – Pretend a Nazi had managed to penetrate the U S Army and become a major and then had gotten up and given a raving Heil Hitler speech in front of his superiors and peers. Would they have covered it up?

We’ve done this to ourselves. Some of us are very unhappy about it.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:29 am 19. Peter the Bubblehead:

11. Thomas_L….. wrote:
We’ve gone from a society that rounded up thousands of innocents in WWII to one that won’t even protect itself. From one extreme to the other is not progress.

Peter writes: Unfortunately it is because of the former that the attitude of the latter now exists. I have heard Libs comparing Gitmo with the Japanese internment camps during WWII and have tried to point out those in Gitmo were captured on the battlefield in the act of trying to kill our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines and are not nor have ever been US citizens locked up unjustly and the typical libtard response is “Shut up!”

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:37 am 20. Xcontra:

Good. Thanks for the specific information, Patrick. It is interesting that the Army can weed out KKK but refuses to do the same for the Jihad types.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:39 am 21. Bohemond:

Moho the Taqqiyeh Machine, still spinning…..

Stop trying to pretend that your co-religionist is just another whack-job who went postal. This was a coldly rational Islamist hate-killing, an act of jihad (and you love it).

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:47 am 22. ETAB:

There’s a problem, moho, within your desperate attempts to deny the reality of Islamic terrorism, and I do suggest that you do a bit of factchecking on it,…

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

The problem is that you are removing the causality of the action. A comparison would be if someone arrived at a hospital with a deep gash in their leg. The attendants would want to know the cause, because their treatment would differ: (a) bite from possibly rabid dog; (b)accidental slash by rusty knife; (c)bite by AIDS patient..etc.

How about a car accident? Does causality matter? Is it due to ice on the road, to a drunk driver, to lack of proper street lights, to a deep pothole in a broken road, to an unmaintained car..does the cause matter? No? That would mean that you would not attempt to fix that road, or prevent drunk..etc..

Your opinion, in your attempt to defend Islam and deny it has a terrorist agenda, is to assert that the parent’s actions are similar in causality to the actions of Hasan. And you generalize all violence to a general cause: American society is violent and falling apart. Could you provide some evidence to prove a singular cause to all violence in America?

Since actions of violence take place everywhere on this planet, then, please explain for us why such actions take place in these other countries.

Also, please explain to us why the various exhortations by imams and others, to kill Americans and people of the West, and the various attacks by self-declared jihadists, are supposed to be denied as real.

Were the various bombings in London, Madrid, Indonesia..and 9/11 not actions of Islamic terrorism? Please explain what they were if you disagree – and explain why various Muslims around the world, who assert that they were jihadic attacks…should not be believed.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:59 am 23. Jettboy:

How many here have participated in a demonstration at a Muslim Mosque? Its really easy to type words on a keypad at home in your basement. To really be heard, however, you need to to out into the real world and voice your opinions. Yes, I have said this before and will continue to say this until I see real courage. By the way, the best day for something like this is on a Friday.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:02 am 24. Ernie G:

#17 Moho: I googled on the name of the high school and read several news accounts. The hostage situation seems to have been perpetrated by a Man Of No Description.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:05 am 25. Now and Then:

“Many talking heads now claim that this incident was entirely unpredictable and the cause ultimately unknowable.”

Wow, just imagine if such ignorant head-in-the-sand thinking were in place at the national level. Imagine that our administration entrusted with keeping us safe had been warned of some terrible attack . . . maybe even to include the name of the attacker . . . we could end up with some bunch of crazies flying planes into skyscrapers and . . . . oops . . . never mind.

19 Peter the Bubblehead:

” . . . those in Gitmo were captured on the battlefield in the act of trying to kill our soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines and are not nor have ever been US citizens locked up unjustly . . . ”

“the United States soon realized many Guantanamo detainees were innocent but nevertheless held them in hopes they could provide information for a “mosaic” of intelligence . . . Indeed, because he lived in Afghanistan and was captured on or near the battle area, he must know something of importance . . . There are still innocent people there. Some have been there six or seven years.”" (Lawrence Wilkerson, a Republican who was chief of staff to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell) . . . Some 800 men have been held at Guantanamo since the prison opened in January 2002, and about 25% of that number remain.

So, Peter, perhaps we should have just killed all 800 right off the bat. You know, remove any doubt. Conservatives = fire, aim, ready.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:12 am 26. moho:

The military has made no apparent effort to address some of its stunning failures. For example, take the case of Ali Mohamed, al-Qaeda’s military chief who served as a U.S. Army sergeant at the Special Warfare Center at Ft. Bragg and gathered extensive intelligence in his position that advanced the terror group’s understanding of warfare and helped to plan the U.S. embassy bombings in Africa.

You’re relying on the predictable vast ignorance of your audience and it will work for you. But you and I both know that Al Q’aeda, at the time you’re pointing out here, was allied with the US against the Soviets in Afghanistan. You’d have to talk about how our country nurtured these Islamists in the first place and you won’t do that, because it doesn’t fit into your [insert red scare/menace] here McCarthyism. The saddest thing is that your readers are willing to barter what little self-respect they have for the pleasures of ostracizing others and bigotry. As I said, you focus on these phantoms at your peril. Your country’s falling apart, it started long before Obama, and the elites have had you pointing fingers at ghosts while they laugh all the way to the bank with your cash. Be certain that when the country finally collapses, they’ll have villas elsewhere.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:13 am 27. Real Deal:

From one extreme to the other is not progress.

That’s the American way it seems.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:20 am 28. ETAB:

“Your country is falling apart”? Ahh, so now it becomes clear, moho, you aren’t an American citizen. Could I ask – of which country you are a citizen?

Could you explain to us how it is bigotry if we acknowledge the open, public declarations by various people of Islamism, in America and outside of America, that their agenda is to murder us all? Are we bigoted if we reject their agenda? Or are THEY the bigots because they reject our right to live as we do? Which is it?

You refuse to acknowledge the reality of Islamic terrorism – despite the fact that bombings, killings, mosque exhortations to kill non-Muslims..take place all around the world. Could you explain the ahh..non-bigotry of these statements and the cause of these violent actions?

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:26 am 29. bubblehead:

Moho, I cannot understand why the moderators allow you to continue to post here. Your comments are always personal, toxic and vitriolic. You never address points made, but always spew some other completely unrelated propaganda in your “replies”. You’ve called more people more names on this site than everyonne else combined!

What do you get out of posting here, anyway? You obviously have an agenda, but you can hardly articulate it for the nearly inarticulate frothings of your fury! Who are you angry at?

I think it must come as a surprise to you to discover that people who do not agree with you are not automatically fools, painfully ignorant, merely stupid or stooges for (____________________ fill in the blank)!

Finally, if you are going to rant and rave in your postings and make ad-hominem attacks against everyone else, you are going to HAVE to accept that you are going to be the butt of some humor now and then. Some of it will be good-natured and some of it will be harsh; fact is, you’ve earned all of it.

If you want to be taken seriously (and it appears that is VERY important to you), then tone down the rhetoric, address specific points made with factual and reasoned counterpoints and be civil.

Try it, you’ll ba amazed how much further you get!

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:34 am 30. moho:

ETAB, lol. Have you ever said something like “they’re fighting for your country, liberties, etcetera”. Were you implying that you weren’t a citizen? Idiot.

How is it not bigotry? There have been two rampages since, and neither has had a political connection. This is the American way. The muslim world may be rocked with violence, but one thing they don’t have is people going to their children’s school or workplace to murder everyone. That’s a peculiarly American phenomenon, and Hasan, simply an American who happened to be a Muslim. Seriously, you people have your heads way up your b-holes.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:35 am 31. tanstaafl:

…on the command level there is an institutional obstinacy that prevents any substantive discussion leading to concrete policies to put into place DOD-wide…there were many obvious warning signs that were intentionally ignored, giving proof that very little has been learned from Ali Mohamed and several other similar cases since 9/11.

This is all very shocking. From what I’ve read of the soft pedaling of General Casey et al., abhorrent.

And the FBI had followed Hasan and knew of his connections with the American born radical imam who is now in Yemen who has called Hasan a hero and has said the only reason a Muslim should be in the US military is to conduct such acts as his ?

While DHS’s Janet Napolitano is currently in Abu Dhabi, assuring Muslims there that there will be precautions taken against a backlash against Muslims here ?

Insane is the only word that comes to mind.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:36 am 32. Now and Then:

22. ETAB:
“There’s a problem . . . you are removing the causality of the action.”

Good, let’s talk causality . . .

Eric Robert Rudolph . . . far-right radical described by the Federal Bureau of Investigation as a terrorist . . . committed a series of bombings across the southern United States which killed two people (including a cop) and injured at least 150 others . . .
said his bombings were part of a guerrilla campaign against abortion and the homosexual agenda.

His causality? According to the FBI . . . “He had a long association with the radical Christian Identity movement” So, were his multiple attacks not actions of Christian terrorism?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt9Qs7P7h2A&feature=related

Honesty is the way, the truth, the light.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:41 am 33. Thomas_L.....:

Might as well face it, unless one of these Sudden Jihadis makes a horrible misjudgement and shoots down a late term abortion doctor, they’re good to go. I’d hope one of them doesn’t open up on any of our trolls but I fear our trolls may be instant converts themselves, judging on the idiocy coming out of their combined pie holes.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:53 am 34. tanstaafl:

How many here have participated in a demonstration at a Muslim Mosque?

Somehow, I think Big Sis Napolitano & friends might arrest you for disturbing the peace.

(radical) Islamists are very likely amused to find the protections extended them by America’s brain dead and politically correct, in and out of the military.

“Praise Allah (SWT), the infidels are their own worst enemy!”

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:59 am 35. David P:

It’s b/c the USA is a reactionary society, we respond to incidents after they’ve occurred, we NEVER act to prevent them. Civil liberties barricade our ability to define and label what is evidently hostile, combative & treasonous. The system limits our mastery to ‘logically’ probe red flags, legally cradling & protecting the accused while threatening the accusers, whistle blowers & informers. We’re bound by a web of constraints woven to ensure failure among all measures of deterrence.

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:10 am 36. Real Deal:

The muslim world may be rocked with violence, but one thing they don’t have is people going to their children’s school or workplace to murder everyone.

Nope they have people going there to toss acid in the faces of little girls, threaten them, and even murder them for wanting an education. They have an entire populace that lives in fear of being maimed, beaten, tortured, or murdered if they step out of line. Perhaps you’ve missed the stories coming out of Afghanistan and Iraq over the last several years moho.

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:16 am 37. tanstaafl:

The system limits our mastery to ‘logically’ probe red flags, legally cradling & protecting the accused while threatening the accusers, whistle blowers & informers.

“the system” requires we completely abandon common sense ?

In the past, US Presidents, rightly or wrongly, have had the courage to at time suspend aspects of “the system” in the name of protecting the American people.

e.g., both Lincoln and FDR’s suspension of habeas corpus

Compare & contrast to today, where we’ve got cadres of ACLU type lawyers tying up court systems trying to get habeas corpus to apply to Gitmo guys, a totally absurd proposition, but that is typical of the morass we live in.

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:18 am 38. tanstaafl:

…but one thing they don’t have is people going to their children’s school or workplace to murder everyone.

Let’s see, very recently the Taliban attacked a Pakistani school and killed some school girls, you know, education for females cannot happen under their version of Islam.

There have been other attacks on schools in Afghanistan.

What about Beslan, Russia ?

Anyway, whichever troll wrote this tripe should spend a little while at the site below to digest some notion of “senseless attacks” committed in the name of Islam, just skip on down to a litany of islamic terror attacks in the last 2 months alone.

The Religion of Peace

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:25 am 39. jd:

If Bush was guilty of not having “connected the dots” Obama (and the rest of the PC crowd) is Guilty of Erasing the Dots.

jd

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:34 am 40. ETAB:

moho – you haven’t answered my questions. As bubblehead wrote to you – and I suggest you read that post carefully – answering criicism of your comments with insults and irrelevance isn’t constructive. You certainly aren’t representing Islam as a reasoning, peaceful and collaborative people.

Again, you haven’t answered my questions. I have five basic questions. You refuse to deal with reality – and your constant ‘answering’ with personal insults and your endless, endless assertions that WE are all stupid…is itself bigotry. Try again.

1) You generalize all violence to a general cause: “American society is violent and falling apart”. Could you provide some EVIDENCE to prove a singular cause to all violence in America? NOTE: Your repetition that ‘this is the way it is’ is dogma not evidence.

2) Since actions of violence take place everywhere on this planet, then, please explain for us WHY such actions take place in these other countries.

3) Please explain to us why the various exhortations by imams and others, to kill Americans and people of the West, and the various attacks by self-declared jihadists, are supposed to be denied as real. You CAN’T deny these public statements. Explain them.

4)Were the various bombings in London, Madrid, Indonesia..and 9/11 not actions of Islamic terrorism? Please explain what they were if you disagree – and explain why various Muslims around the world, who assert that they were jihadic attacks…should not be believed.

5) Could you explain to us how it is bigotry if we acknowledge the open, public declarations by various people of Islamism, in America and outside of America, that their agenda is to murder us all? Are we bigoted if we reject their agenda? Or are THEY the bigots because they reject our right to live as we do? Which is it?

6) You refuse to acknowledge the reality of Islamic terrorism – despite the fact that bombings, killings, mosque exhortations to kill non-Muslims..take place all around the world. Could you explain the ahh..non-bigotry of these statements and the cause of these violent actions?

Oh -and moho- do you recall the Islamic burning of a school with little girls in it because they reject girls going to school? How many children have been killed in Islamic terrorist attacks? What’s your point?

ANSWER the questions. Not with insults. Not telling us we are stupid. Deal with reality.

Now and Then – are you seriously trying to JUSTIFY Islamic terrorism by asserting that Christian terrorism exists?

Could you explain to us how it is bigotry if we acknowledge the open, public declarations by various people of Islamism, in America and outside of America, that their agenda is to murder us all? Are we bigoted if we reject their agenda? Or are THEY the bigots because they reject our right to live as we do? Which is it?

You refuse to acknowledge the reality of Islamic terrorism – despite the fact that bombings, killings, mosque exhortations to kill non-Muslims..take place all around the world. Could you explain the ahh..non-bigotry of these statements and the cause of these violent actions?

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:37 am 41. RickGreenville,SC:

Mohole, are you friggin’ serious??!! Muslims dont set off bombs at workplaces?! What the heck do you call all the bombs set off in marketplaces in Iraq and Afghanistan? No one is working at these places? You are a fool to spout your trollish lies and expect us to believe them. This Major Nidal needs to be taken out, executed, and buried with a dead pig. Let us see if this will get posted. . . it might be offensive to the trolls, who seem to be able to post/say what they want with no fear of recriminations. . . why is that?How can we conservatives get in touch?

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:40 am 42. Bob Miller:

We need to become more concerned about Post-Educational Trauma (PET) and Post-Journalist Trauma (PJT), which follow overexposure to American higher education and American journalism. Patients with PET and/or PJT can be expected to view their country as always wrong and its enemies as always right. Recent events confirm that PET and PJT have spread widely within the highest levels of our Federal Government, civilian and military.

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:40 am 43. Sherab Zangpo:

HOW can the Armed Forces defend themselves when we have a president who calls stupid the Police BUT says that we must not jump to conclusions about a jihadist ?

Barak Hussein “Jihadist” MMMMHHH MMMMHHH MMMMHHH

Thank you for the opportunity to comment

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:40 am 44. Code Blue:

#18:
“Pretend a Nazi had managed to penetrate the U S Army and become a major and then had gotten up and given a raving Heil Hitler speech in front of his superiors and peers. Would they have covered it up?”

Now let’s pretend that this German-American Nazi/Bund member was known to be sending letters to Nazi Command that were intercepted by the FBI. Would they have done anything?

Then let’s pretend this man one day dresses in Nazi garb, gives away copies of Mein Kampf, goes into the Fort where soldiers are preparing to be shipped to Europe, screams “Heil Hitler” and opens fire, killing 13.
Now imagine that FDR gets on the radio and gives shout outs to a couple of friends, then warns America about jumping to conclusions, and the mainstream media and the elites in power say this has nothing to do with Nazi-ism. Imagine the head of the army saying that it would be worse if pan-European diversity of the army were adversely impacted by suspicions against German americans, and the attorney general warning about anti-German backlash. Now imagine a boatload of lawyers and German-american apologists running to defend this shooter.

THAT is the PC nightmare we live in today. If it were around back then, we would be speaking German or thrown in ovens. Now, the endgame is that we will be dhimmis living under Shariah law.

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:48 am 45. Sherab Zangpo:

This administration is siding against America: check these at

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com

Scroll down to these two pieces :

the State Dept. officer that managed all things iranian has been substituted with another who is part of a PRO mullahs association financed by Soros !!!!

and the attorney general WILL be present at a dinner where CAIR is one of the hosts !!!!

These are decisive facts, this administration is working OPENLY with the enemies of America !

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:07 am 46. Commuter:

40. ETAB:

‘ANSWER the questions. Not with insults. Not telling us we are stupid. Deal with reality.’

Good luck with that challenge.

BTW: If he runs true to character, and there is nothing whatsoever unique about moho, there is a way to test his sincerity of his positions – and I do use both terms loosely in his case. Rather than address him directly, analyze and/or dissect his comments in the third person. If his actual reason for being here is simply to be directly noticed, whether that is in a positive or negative way, being considered only in the third person will not suffice and he’ll disappear. If not, he’ll continue in the same vein regardless.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:23 am 47. moho:

and I suggest you read that post carefully – answering criicism of your comments with insults and irrelevance isn’t constructive. You certainly aren’t representing Islam as a reasoning, peaceful and collaborative people.

The term LOL does not sufficiently convey how hilarious your comment is. First thing, I don’t represent Islam anymore than you represent NASCAR. What an absurd comment–that you would even think of judging an entire religion by the actions of one person outs you as someone completely unfit to comment intelligently on any issue of importance. With that in mind, I certainly don’t take seriously comments from such a person, especially when the forum they’re posting on is one of the most perfect examples of angry bigoted, brainless torchmobbing. I similarly don’t view you as the representative of below-average, suburban, semi-literate American. I know plenty of such people who would find you equally repulsive, and so realize that all populations are diverse, no matter the characteristics I have used to categorize them.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:33 am 48. Moho:

ETAB, the reason you receive insults rather than answers is because your questions are poorly thought out and not worthy of address. But I’ll do you a solid and answer, but by no means I hope, will that be construed as your questions having any merit.

The answer to all of your questions is this: given that you recognize that all violence is motivated by specific factors, why does it matter the motivation? Americans have killed more people in their workplace than any other country? The tide of violence seems unstoppable as I noted. Are you interested in the motive? Since these actions take place in the workplace, in schools and malls–literally the columns that hold up American society, and where Americans congregate–and all have so many factors in common, why hasn’t this rung any bells in your little head? Why do Americans so often go on rampages at schools and workplace? What is their motive? Certainly they must all have something in common given the startling similarities of their crimes. They have been responsible for much more violence in America than lone Jihadists starting their own terrorist cells on the cheap.

As I noted, head, meet bunghole.

PS: I’ll probably never stop insulting you. I find your stupidity offensive and damaging.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:39 am 49. instant sales system:

carrying of weapons is not allowed at the base,i think so.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:50 am 50. Judy, NYC:

the reason this will happen again is because we have an islamist president who celebrates their vomit “culture”, over and beyond democracies everywhere. a pandering slobbering low bowing creature. who else would open wide the doors of america for these treacherous scum.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:51 am 51. Insufficiently Sensitive:

The first and most important indicator of a threat is the Islamic faith of the subject, the mere mention of which would automatically provoke cries of “racism” and “bigotry.”

Well then, the commonsense remedy is to demote the ‘cries of racism and bigotry’ to unsupported assertions which MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO HIJACK SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS. Such discussions do have a place for those cries, but must consider all other evidence as well.

I realize this approach might fetch some distress from the PC-indoctrinated University crowd and government fonctionnaires – but such distress is far more preferable to society than repeated occasions of sudden violence and deaths.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:55 am 52. Fred Beloit:

#17 Moho
Typical nitwit banter: “Its these jihadists, and not the American obsession with going bats^%$ crazy at your place of work, school or favored fast food restaurant, that’s at work here.”

But facts, though recent data are hard to find, possibly because of the well known leftist bent at Google, are the answer to these moonbats. Moho shudders at the high statistics and sees them as growing and commonplace:

“* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred:

Florida vs all US

homicide rate
-36% —FL
-0.4% —USA

firearm homicide rate
-37% —FL
+15% —USA

handgun homicide rate
-41% —FL
+24% —USA

* 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms.

* As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense.

* As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer’s life.
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

MASS SHOOTINGS in US (population now about 375,000,000) 1999 to 2009. Moho sees the numbers below as an indication of an American obsession with going…crazy”. Why? Because he is a terrorist mouthpiece?
2009=2 (plus Hasan, the only war-crime mass shooting done by a traitor): –08=1—07=2—06=1—05=2—04=0—03=0—02=0—01=0—99=3
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/04/a_glance_at_us_mass_shootings.html

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:06 am 53. wrg:

48. Moho:

Nice dodge, I see you still don’t answer questions just more snark.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:11 am 54. Moho:

There will be more military base shootings:

Yes, you’re absolutely right about that. Look at these:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/10/us/10post.html?_r=1&hp

Fort Hood is still reeling from last week’s carnage, in which an Army psychiatrist is accused of a massacre that left 13 people dead. But in the town of Killeen and other surrounding communities, the attack, one of the worst mass shootings on a military base in the United States, is also seen by many as another blow in an area that has been beset by crime and violence since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq began. Reports of domestic abuse have grown by 75 percent since 2001. At the same time, violent crime in Killeen has risen 22 percent while declining 7 percent in towns of similar size in other parts of the country.

The stresses are seen in other ways, too.

Since 2003, there have been 76 suicides by personnel assigned to Fort Hood, with 10 this year, according to military officials.

A crisis center on base is averaging 60 phone calls a week from soldiers and family members seeking various help for problems from suicide to anger management, with about the same volume of walk-ins and scheduled appointments.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/30794989/the_fort_carson_murder_spree

In the six years since combat operations began in Iraq, Fort Carson — the country’s third-largest Army base, with 22,000 active soldiers on duty — has become its own kind of killing field. Before Kevin Shields was gunned down, at least three other Iraq War veterans from the base had been arrested for murder, and a fourth had committed suicide after killing his wife. Since then, at least five more GIs at Fort Carson have been arrested in connection with murders, attempted murders or manslaughter. All told, the military acknowledged this summer, 14 soldiers from the base have been charged or convicted in at least 11 slayings since 2005 — the largest killing spree involving soldiers at a single U.S. military installation in modern history.

You boneheads are completely divorced from reality. You never cared about murder on these bases during our wars, until it allowed you to air your bigotry. Ugly and pathetic.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:13 am 55. Anonymous:

the reason this will happen again is because we have an islamist president who celebrates their vomit “culture”, over and beyond democracies everywhere. a pandering slobbering low bowing creature. who else would open wide the doors of america for these treacherous scum.

Insufficiently educated. It seems to me your biggest complaint is that obvious bigotry is pointed out. There is even a way to talk about dangers of Islamists without resorting to this kind of disgusting rhetoric–in fact, this discourse happens all the time in Islamic countries. One day you’ll figure out how to do that, and realize that few if any people are calling you a bigot. On that day, I imagine, a life of wasted ignorance will be brought into stark relief as you realize that you’ve never said anything that intelligent people ought to take seriously.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:18 am 56. Moho:

the reason this will happen again is because we have an islamist president who celebrates their vomit “culture”, over and beyond democracies everywhere. a pandering slobbering low bowing creature. who else would open wide the doors of america for these treacherous scum.

Insufficiently educated. It seems to me your biggest complaint is that obvious bigotry is pointed out. There is even a way to talk about dangers of Islamists without resorting to this kind of disgusting rhetoric–in fact, this discourse happens all the time in Islamic countries. One day you’ll figure out how to do that, and realize that few if any people are calling you a bigot. On that day, I imagine, a life of wasted ignorance will be brought into stark relief as you realize that you’ve never said anything that intelligent people ought to take seriously.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:19 am 57. ETAB:

And we can see, that once again, moho has refused to deal with the questions about Islamic motivated violence. He refused to answer even one question!

His posts are indeed, angry, bigoted and brainless torchmobbing, where he castigates Americans as the most violent people on this earth.

He refuses to confront and deal with Islamic violence, and I don’t mean simply the 7th through 15th centuries of Islamic violence, but the 20th and 21st centuries.

He won’t confront the imams preaching and promoting violence in the mosques all around the world. Moho won’t say a word about this.

He won’t deal with the Islamic bombings on innocents in the workplace, the marketplace, in their homes, on their trains, in their hotels, in their schools, at their wedding celebrations. Moho won’t say a word about this

He doesn’t want to face facts, to deal with reality. Instead – it’s insults, insults and a refusal to answer. Ahh, that’s the sign of what? Intelligence? Reasong? Or fear?

I and others have suggested that moho, our resident Muslim apologist, go check out some facts. Check out the October dead and wounded by jihadist attacks:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Monthly Jihad Report
October 2009 Jihad Attacks: 156
Countries: 15
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 909
Critically Injured: 2024

And here’s the November listing: in the workplace, in the marketplace, in schools, in their homes:

2009.11.09 (Jolo, Philippines) – Abu Sayyaf militants cut the head off of a local school principal and leave it in a paper bag at a gas station.
2009.11.09 (Yala, Thailand) – A young Buddhist man collecting plants is brutally ambushed and killed by Religion of Peace advocates.
2009.11.09 (Peshawar, Pakistan) – A woman and a rickshaw driver are among three people blown up by a Shahid suicide bomber.
2009.11.09 (Narathiwat, Thailand) – Islamists shoot and kill a 53-year-old riding home on his motorcycle.
2009.11.08 (Rajouri, India) – A man and his wife are murdered in their home by intruding Islamic gunmen.
2009.11.08 (Pattani, Thailand) – A young man eating in a restaurant is among two people killed in separate Mujahid shootings.

Now, we must ask, WHY did these murders occur? Someone like moho will assert that..well, I’m not sure because he adamantly refuses to answer, and just continues to insult and rant..but, he seems to be saying that in America if anyone kills someone, it’s because they are American.

Does he mean that IF you are Spanish, THEN you will blow up a commuter train?
Or, IF you are British, THEN, you will blow up the London Subway?
And IF you are Pakistani, THEN, you will set fire to a hotel?

Or, is there something MORE in common with these actions?

And does moho understand the difference between a psychological action and an ideological action?

So far, all moho does, is insult, insult, tell people how stupid they are…and refuse, absolutely refuse, to answer any questions..or deal with any accusation of problems with Islam. Islam, to moho, is puurrfect. And everyone but moho is stupid and bigoted. Ahh, the poor sweet dear.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:25 am 58. Thomas_L......:

Remember that Moho has stated, “I don’t like you people.” Hopefully, he doesn’t go all “sudden jihad” on us. The term total waste of breathing space cannot convey his utter stupidy.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:25 am 59. Fred Beloit:

#48 Mojo Opposes the idea of Hate Crimes being worse than any other crimes. I agree with Moho on this one, narrowly defined. But I am surprised at M’s position:
“The answer to all of your questions is this: given that you recognize that all violence is motivated by specific factors, why does it matter the motivation?”

Moho also asks the musical question: “Why do Americans so often [sic, once or twice a year, some years not at all] go on rampages at schools and workplace?” The answer: these locations forbid the lawful carrying of defensive firearms, therefore, they are perfect places to attack unarmed crowds. That is also probably why terrorists of a Palestinian persuasion like to attack children on school buses in Israel.

Moho continues: “They[American mass shooters] have been responsible for much more violence in America than lone Jihadists starting their own terrorist cells on the cheap.”
He is right. Lone Jihadists seem to be singularly inept (think shoe bomber). They are often caught before they attack. Consider the pipe bombers, whom folks like Moho defended, when these bombers were first picked up, as kids with fireworks.
In this sense of ineptitude the Jihadists perfectly mirror their homelands from which they came and continue to come to the West in droves seeking escape from the terrible conditions there. But Hasan, a citizen of Uncle Sam’s, was effective against the unarmed Americans, until he ran into the armed Americans.

Good lesson there, eh, Mo.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:37 am 60. Moho:

The answer: these locations forbid the lawful carrying of defensive firearms, therefore, they are perfect places to attack unarmed crowds. That is also probably why terrorists of a Palestinian persuasion like to attack children on school buses in Israel.

You’ve confused method for motive.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:43 am 61. JR Dogman:

Moho,

I think your arguments are dead-wrong, and I am certain you advance them in bad faith. There’s no need for me to say any more on these points, however, as you’ll just tell me I’m an uneducated bigot shaking in his boots at the idea of having to learn Mandarin when the Chinese take over the country.

All of the above being said, I want to compliment you: you raise rudeness to nearly an art form. I’m serious: you say the same things over and over to countless posters, no matter what they say, and it still sounds fresh; the thrill you feel at calling people educated fools keeps coming through.

If you’re a naturally funny type in person, I think you should try your hand as an insult comic. No kidding — this is a real suggestion. You have a talent. You remind me of this teacher from my high school who was the same way. The guy was a Holocaust survivor, a very smart man, but so rude it was unbelievable. He had such a dark sense of humor, and he was so insulting to everyone — not just the kids but his colleagues — but it was so funny. He would say the most horrible things to us and we’d just crack up. (This is not to say that most people here are finding you funny, they’re not in the right head for it — but if they could step back, I think they would have to admit how deft you are in your insults.)

Anyhow, I just wanted to say that. I keep reading your remarks on these threads, and I think what you actually say is dead-wrong, but you are unquestionably a Master of the Insult.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:49 am 62. Sherab Zangpo:

I opposed the idea to ban the trolls, but I don’t understand why so many of you Folks argue with the muslimarxists who infest this forum.
They hate America, they hate us, they just want the end of our way of life and our Freedom.
Ignore them, they will never stop posting lies and insults anyway. In the last seven years I have never seen one of these agit-props re-think his positions.
They are not brainwashed, they are the brainwashers.

And their only goal is to cause us to lose precious time.
This administration is moving fast to weaken America and to endanger our Freedom, we have no time for the monstrous chimeras (muslimarxist, a fabulous new production from hell !)produced by ideology.

Thank you for the opportunity to comment.

Nov 10, 2009 - 11:55 am 63. Fred Beloit:

#60 Moho
That’s it, MO? That’s all you’ve got? You are wrong, anyway. You asked why rampages happen at schools and workplace, as opposed to other places. Am I wrong? Did I misunderstand your simple question? I answered your question as I understood it.

I identified your comment by number. But in fairness here is your entire question: “Since these actions take place in the workplace, in schools and malls–literally the columns that hold up American society, and where Americans congregate–and all have so many factors in common, why hasn’t this rung any bells in your little head? Why do Americans so often go on rampages at schools and workplace? What is their motive? Certainly they must all have something in common given the startling similarities of their crimes.”

Their motives? I would say they vary widely. The motive of a field grade Army officer who shoots over and over again into a crowd of unarmed soldiers has basically already given us his motive. He says it is like the motive of a soldier in battle who falls on a grenade to save his comrades. How is that? More satisfactory for your purposes? Glad to oblige.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:13 pm 64. Bohemond:

Moho at #54 is now trying out the NPR/New York Times diversion ploy: focus on violence by Iraq vets. Good propaganda, bad argument. In fact the rates of suicide, homicide, violent crime and crime generally are *lower* for Iraq/AfPak vets than the general population.

But the stereotype of the whacked-out PTSD veteran-as-victim/killer is SUCH good lefty/Muzzie propaganda…..

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:14 pm 65. Tin Kicker:

Yes, elections have consequences. The real question that needs to be asked is whether or not Islam is compatible with our armed forces. I would submit that it is not. We are engaged in a war with radical Islam whether or not the White House will admit it. The seeds of radical Islam have been sown far and wide within the military, and the question that has not been answered is how Muslims can justify serving in the military with the view contained in the Koran, particularly those views that cover infidels and Muslims fighting Muslims.

So far everyone from the President on down, including the entire military chain of command, cannot see the connection between this one officer’s actions and Islam. That is truly sad when you are so blinded by political correctness that you can no longer see the truth.

This has happened before and will happen again. You ask why, and the answer is simple. Political correctness has replaced the truth, and until truth is able to reign over political correctness our armed forces are in continuous danger.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:28 pm 66. Anonymous:

Why after the truth about Hasan became undeniable following his mass slaughter, does the government, as well as its mouthpiece the establishment press, agonize in their usual pathetic manner over what could possibly have motivated the Army psychiatrist to coldly, methodically murder 13 and wound 38 others?

* Shortly after the attack, right on schedule, the FBI announced it wasn’t terror-related.

* Time magazine moronically blamed posttraumatic stress disorder – even though Hasan has never been deployed in a war zone.

* The shooter’s relatives insisted he had been the victim of religious harassment because of his faith, which must have made him snap.

* According to the Washington Post, the problem was that Hasan was lonely. That’s right, the newspaper’s report, titled “The lonely life of alleged Fort Hood shooter,” was subtitled: “‘He was mistreated. He didn’t have nobody. He was all alone,’ says neighbor.”

* Meanwhile, President Obama warned Americans against “jumping to conclusions” about what might have motivated the shooter.

Why, after a Muslim commits a terrorist act, do authorities always announce almost instantaneously – before they could possibly know – that the attack was not terror-related?

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:31 pm 67. wrg:

Why after the truth about Hasan became undeniable following his mass slaughter, does the government, as well as its mouthpiece the establishment press, agonize in their usual pathetic manner over what could possibly have motivated the Army psychiatrist to coldly, methodically murder 13 and wound 38 others?

* Shortly after the attack, right on schedule, the FBI announced it wasn’t terror-related.

* Time magazine moronically blamed posttraumatic stress disorder – even though Hasan has never been deployed in a war zone.

* The shooter’s relatives insisted he had been the victim of religious harassment because of his faith, which must have made him snap.

* According to the Washington Post, the problem was that Hasan was lonely. That’s right, the newspaper’s report, titled “The lonely life of alleged Fort Hood shooter,” was subtitled: “‘He was mistreated. He didn’t have nobody. He was all alone,’ says neighbor.”

* Meanwhile, President Obama warned Americans against “jumping to conclusions” about what might have motivated the shooter.

Why, after a Muslim commits a terrorist act, do authorities always announce almost instantaneously – before they could possibly know – that the attack was not terror-related?

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:32 pm 68. Fred Beloit:

Sherob, you make a case having merit. Ignoring or banning is what most the librul bogs do. I confess it is very effective in the sense that finally only one side is heard. The choir becomes in mostly tune.

The other position is let’s hear what they have to say, not to reform them but to see whether they may have valid points and to asses to what depths they are willing to sink in their desperation. Finally, some of us must engage them. They must be shown that there is another side. That there are people, oh many, many people who don’t view life and current issues at all the way they do. To me this is vital.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:33 pm 69. huxley:

…but on the command level there is an institutional obstinacy that prevents any substantive discussion leading to concrete policies to put into place DOD-wide. Under the present administration, that doesn’t look to change.

Patrick Poole: Good article. It will be a while yet before the chattering classes get the point, but I think the American people are.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:37 pm 70. Curtis M:

moho -

“Insufficiently educated. It seems to me your biggest complaint is that obvious bigotry is pointed out. There is even a way to talk about dangers of Islamists without resorting to this kind of disgusting rhetoric–in fact, this discourse happens all the time in Islamic countries. One day you’ll figure out how to do that, and realize that few if any people are calling you a bigot. On that day, I imagine, a life of wasted ignorance will be brought into stark relief as you realize that you’ve never said anything that intelligent people ought to take seriously.”

Wow.

Let’s try some fun word play, shall we?

There is a way to talk about dangers of Islamists (AND GENERAL POLITICS FOR THAT MATTER) without resorting to this kind of disgusting rhetoric–in fact, this discourse happens all the time RIGHT HERE AT THIS WEBSITE and other blogs on the net. One day you’ll figure out how to do that, and realize that few if any people are calling you a TROLL. On that day, I imagine, a life of wasted TIME will be brought into stark relief as you realize that you’ve never said anything that intelligent people ought to take seriously.

Just curious moho – could you point to one of YOUR OWN posts in which you attempted to engage in honest discourse without resorting to rhetoric? Or is ‘rhetoric’ something that ONLY the ‘other side’ uses?

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:46 pm 71. Jusitice:

Saw memorial.
I did not think it was an appropriate time to call for tolerance and reflection on what led to the killings, as if somehow the US people were responsible for provoking the murders and bringing the tragedy and on themselves.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:51 pm 72. Justice:

Saw memorial.
I did not think it was an appropriate time to call for tolerance and reflection on what led to the killings, as if somehow the US people were responsible for provoking the murders and bringing the tragedy and on themselves.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:52 pm 73. RE:

It’s not terrorism.
It’s Jihad.
And it’s worldwide.

Nov 10, 2009 - 12:53 pm 74. lolz:

Occam’s Razor applies here. I think USA is targeted because it sticks its nose where it does not belong.

Nov 10, 2009 - 1:39 pm 75. lolz:

“I did not think it was an appropriate time to call for tolerance and reflection on what led to the killings, as if somehow the US people were responsible for provoking the murders and bringing the tragedy and on themselves.”

It’s not politically correct to say this, but USA’s actions in the middle east have more or less brought it on its subjects.

Nov 10, 2009 - 1:45 pm 76. Willie:

moho……

Not all muslims are terrorists, but 99.99999999% of terrorists are muslims. You reckon that is bigotry or can you prove it incorrect? And where in the Constitution does it give the right to not be offended? Shut up.

Nov 10, 2009 - 1:54 pm 77. wayne:

I posted this at the Chesler Chronicles but it bears repeating.

Is anyone surprised that Obama can’t utter the words “Islamic Terrorist”?

I promise you he and his administration have no problem with fulminating horrific conspiracies by “RIGHT WING EXTREMISTS” (Christians, Veterans, gun-owners, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck, or anyone else who doesn’t have a Barry-shrine in their closet or carved into their brain) out to destroy Mother Earth.

What do you expect from someone who was immersed in Socialism, anti-Westernism, AND at least several years worth Jihad-theory during his youth, not to mention his 20-year sojourn with Jeremiah Wright?

There has to at least be a pretty significant voice rattling around between those elephant-ears of his that thinks that on a grand scale we deserve attacks like this AND he did bow to the Saudi King and travel to all 57 states – remember?

If nothing really comes of this whole incident and Hasan spends the next 10 years or so rattling around in some sort of a cushy faux-prison cell doing interviews/cell lectures with a coterie of Justice lawyers, selected journalists, activists, and maybe even a mail-a-felon bride while the military continues to be crapped on, derided, and wasted on the battlefields of Iraq and Afghanistan with no real direction or cause incurring both massive losses AND massive resignations – you will have proof that the fix is in.

I fully believe that this will end up being just another perfect tool for Comrade Barry to continue to redistribute not only our wealth, national prestige, culture, and power but even our military capability away to the rest of the world hoping that we will be primed to submit to a one-world socialist utopia – even if it is one dominated by Socialist Jihadi’s like Comrade Ahmedinajad or Comrade bin Laden!

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:07 pm 78. deguello:

As long as a jihad-sympathetic ,FBI neutering traitor is president,there will be many more terrorist attacks.The American people will pay the price for voting in this marxoid dweeb!

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:20 pm 79. Dwight:

OK, I’ll keep asking the question which no one has answered yet. Are we prepared to modify our guarantees of freedom of speech, right to bear arms, and freedom of religion for Muslim citizens?

If so, how do we do it? Obama may or may not be the Muslim anti-Christ, but declaring him so is not the same as advocating a SPECIFIC policy change, It is easier, that’s for sure, but once the insults have been thrown by or at Moho, WHAT DO WE DO?

There is probably a good reason why both GWB and Obama trod lightly on the Muslim question; they believed that it was the responsible thing to do. Internet bluster changes little; Presidential bluster may have real consequences.

Most of us feel that there should have been a way for the army to have done something about Hasan, but this damned freedom of speech, guns, and religion society which our Founders gave us, is really a pain in the butt.

Too bad they did not include one more right, the right for Americans to go on their own jihad. What were they thinking?

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:24 pm 80. Corey:

The reasons why more Americans will die in America and around the world is the fault of fundamentalist Christians who litter the military and congress, hell-bent on making the USA a “Christian Nation” causing our troops to be looked apon as those in a holy war.

Don’t believe me?

Get educated.

Suggestion:

http://www.MilitaryReligiousFreedom.org

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:29 pm 81. ETAB:

lolz..and lol to you too.

You obviously know nothing of either the Qu’ran and hadiths, which preach violence towards non-Muslims, nor the violent militant history of Islam..nor, importantly, the history of Al Qaeda or Islamic fascism.

Islamic fascism began in the Middle East in the 19th c, and was a reaction to the dysfuntional political infrastructure of the Islamic states. Got that? It’s home-grown, a reaction to the internal political/economic structure that retained a tribal hierarchy and prevented the development of a civic structure with power vested in the middle class. You probably don’t know anything about the relation between the economy and the political structure.

I’d also suggest you read Lawrence Wright’s ‘The Looming Tower’ – an insightful book on the Al Qaeda movement from its 19th c origin.

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:31 pm 82. deguello:

As long as this freedom hating,jihad-loving,FBI-neutering,traitor,remains in office, there will be more terrorist attacks.The American people are going to pay the price for voting in an appeasing,America hater.

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:35 pm 83. Curtis M:

lolz:

“It’s not politically correct to say this, but USA’s actions in the middle east have more or less brought it on its subjects.”

Really?

Look up at post #57 by ETAB. In that post, he references the fact that, just in October of this year, there were 156 attacks by Jihadist, in 15 countries around the world, resulting in over 900 dead.

Just in October. That’s ONE FREAKIN’ MONTH.

In 15 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES.

Is ALL of that due to those countries “actions in the Middle East”?

Is that why Jihadists are striking in the Phillipines? Thailand?

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:52 pm 84. Curtis M:

Corey:

“The reasons why more Americans will die in America and around the world is the fault of fundamentalist Christians who litter the military and congress, hell-bent on making the USA a “Christian Nation” causing our troops to be looked apon as those in a holy war.”

You ARE aware that Americans are NOT the only target of Muslim Jihadists, right?

Don’t believe me?

Get educated.

Suggestion:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Nov 10, 2009 - 2:58 pm 85. Dwight:

deguello wrote:

“As long as this freedom hating,jihad-loving,FBI-neutering,traitor,remains in office, there will be more terrorist attacks.The American people are going to pay the price for voting in an appeasing,America hater.”

Is that supposed to be an answer? Will name-calling change anything?

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:07 pm 86. Thomas_L.......:

Corpey@80: I’d have to be stupider than you sound to open up a link after that intro. Is that merely the dumbest thing you could think of to write or is that just what Markos is putting out these days? I not only don’t believe you but I’ll pass on your version of “education”. I do my own thinking. You should try it. Start by reading everything that Mr. Davis Hanson has to say. That would be a start to the education that you so desperately require.

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:12 pm 87. Curtis M:

Dwight:

“OK, I’ll keep asking the question which no one has answered yet. Are we prepared to modify our guarantees of freedom of speech, right to bear arms, and freedom of religion for Muslim citizens?”

Sorry, I hadn’t seen this question.

Speaking only for myself – I say “no”. As long as (perhaps I should say “if”) Muslims citizens in this country are capable of coexisting with others, then they should be allowed the same constitutional guarantees as other citizens. The problem seems to be that fundamentalist Muslims have a difficult time ‘coexisting’ with others. The big question (as you bring it up) is just exactly what, realistically, should be done about it.

Now of course, some trolls in here might pop up and say “well fundamentalist Christians ALSO seem to have a difficult time ‘coexisting’ with others”. To which I would reply that they can take their moral equivalence and shove it sideways – there is a slight difference between not inviting your Muslim neighbor over to watch the ballgame and trying to murder as many infidels as possible while shouting “allah akbar”.

However, speaking now SPECIFICALLY with regards to Major Hasan and his actions, my understanding is that he violated several Army protocols which, had he been of a different religion/culture, would have resulted in his being washed out of the military. So, rather than wring our hands over ‘modifying our constitutional guarantees of freedom of speech, right to bear arms, and freedom of religion for Muslim citizens’, perhaps we should just hold our Muslim citizens (or, in this case, soldiers) to the same standards as everybody else.

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:30 pm 88. Mr Lucky:

48. Moho.

Notice Moho is now capitalized.

Did another shift just come on ? Notice the absence of the signature moho phrase “you people”.

“They have been responsible for much more violence in America than lone Jihadists starting their own terrorist cells on the cheap. ”

9/11?

“As I noted, head, meet bunghole.”

Van Jones finally granted you an audience?

Is your funhouse mirror happy?

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:48 pm 89. Donna V.:

Folks, mock mohole, ridicule mohole – but don’t take mohole seriously. Don’t treat him like an adult ora rational human being who is capable of making sense and arguing logically. That is giving him more respect than he deserves.

People, moho was raised in that filthy sewer of a “religion” -is it any wonder he has a slave mentality and hates this country? Point at him and jeer and laugh; that’s all you can do with a mohole.

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:54 pm 90. Thomas_L.....:

The trolls want to conflate events of the last two thousand years to conclude that fundamentalist Christians are as big a danger to the public as fundamentalist Islamists. Well, at least, they almost admit that there may just be a teensy weensy problem with Islam.
Now they just have to come to their senses. I don’t know about fundamentalists but I’ve spent enough time in church in my day and have never heard a call, urging believers to kill or hurt anyone, neither infidel nor enemy, from a Christian minister or layperson. I doubt that Christian fundamentalists are all that different in that regard, either. In fact, it doesn’t happen unless maybe it’s in Reverend Wright’s church. We know, however, that this is a daily occurence in many mosques throughout the world including ones right here. Ones that Nidal Hassan attended.
Riddle me that one oh wise trolls! Cultural thing?

Nov 10, 2009 - 4:13 pm 91. deguello:

#85 Dwight vomited: “Is that suppossed to be an answer”. Well,duh thickhead,the answer was implicit,vote Obama out!By the way, you can’t fight what you can’t name ,as another blogger said;let’s name it Dwight, its name is JIHAD! your name is CRETIN!

Nov 10, 2009 - 4:33 pm 92. JIMV:

More shootings will occur because military bases are the biggest gun free zones in the country and suffer from the strongest political correctness of any organization. When folk are exempt from scrutiny by membership in PC groups and everyone is required to be helpless, more attacks are guaranteed.

Nov 10, 2009 - 4:36 pm 93. Trainwreck:

New US Army commercial:

“Be all that you can be. Be a Jihad of One. You can still attend you hate mosques and frag your fellow troops at home and abroad. You can slaughter all the infidels in your midst. But diversity trumps the lives of our troops any day.

The US Army. Jihad of One.”

This is not so far fetched when Gen’l Casey is more concerned about army diversity than dead soldiers.

Nov 10, 2009 - 4:44 pm 94. Dwight:

91. deguello:

#85 Dwight vomited: “Is that suppossed to be an answer”. Well,duh thickhead,the answer was implicit,vote Obama out!By the way, you can’t fight what you can’t name ,as another blogger said;let’s name it Dwight, its name is JIHAD! your name is CRETIN!

Golly gee whiz, what a sweet mouth you have, my dear. Let’s see, Obama can’t be voted out for three more years, so is the plan to rant and rave for the duration. If so, evidently you are just the person to do it.

There are three years to discuss what a better policy for the military would be and what changes (if any) could be made and not do any more damage to the Constitution than necessary.

Nov 10, 2009 - 4:50 pm 95. Dave Surls:

“Why There Will Be More Military Base Shootings”

You could cut down on events like this by arresting people like Hasan the minute they start talking treason and sedition.

We could also get rid of a lot of left wing garbage the same way. Take people like Jane Fonda, arrest her for treason and execute her worthless ass (should have been done decades ago).

And, of course no one who says they’re a Muslim first and an American second should EVER be allowed into the armed forces.

If you aren’t willing to do stuff like that, then you’ll just have to live with people who openly work for the enemy while being Americans, and very rarely you’ll see something like this base shooting.

I should say, it’s rare NOW.

If we keep tolerating it (treason and sedition), as we’ve been doing for decades, events like this will become more and more common as the years go by, and the acts will become more and more blatant.

Lastly, Hasan (and all other traitors) should meet swift and sure punishment. He should be tried and (if) convicted promptly executed…and all that should take no more than a few weeks.

That’s the way to handle it.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:00 pm 96. Anne:

I think the jihadist/Muslims in the middle east kill more people at work and play than anyone, anywhere. They kill the children, the unborn, the innocent.

They are mad at the world and follow a nutcase who believed it was okay to kill anyone that does not believe as he did.

Funny how the “supervisors” of the suicide bombers are never the ones blowing up..they talk their pathetic followers into doing it..seems these guys would wise up ..

The Muslims raise their children in hatred and they carry this hatred everywhere they go. When they die I hope their 72 virgins are Michael Moore clones and the Michaels slap the crap out of them

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:05 pm 97. Leatherneck:

“Diversity is perversity.” said Dr. Savage.

BZO, or Die! said the Marine.

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:53 pm 98. ETAB:

The Washington Post has Hasan’s slide show describing his Islamic belief and his suggestion that Muslims in the US military should be released from service.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2009/11/10/GA2009111000920.html

Nov 10, 2009 - 5:55 pm 99. Dave Surls:

“The reasons why more Americans will die in America and around the world is the fault of fundamentalist Christians who litter the military and congress, hell-bent on making the USA a “Christian Nation” causing our troops to be looked apon as those in a holy war. Don’t believe me?”

No, I don’t believe you, because it’s total b.s.

Muslim terrorist attacks against Americans began when we lifted our arms embargo against Israel, and started letting them buy weapons.

Before that, there was no such thing as Muslim terror attacks against Americans (at least not in modern times). After that, every dispute between America and Muslim groups has been met by Muslim terrorism.

It has nothing to do with your stupid Christian Nation hogwash. Muslim loons attack EVERYONE, including other Muslims they’re at odds with, with terror attacks. That’s just how they operate.

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:20 pm 100. David W. Lincoln:

How could the military fight the combination of ideology, geography and the supernatural? It is the same as the War between the Jews and the Seleucid Greeks, which saw the Maccabees come out on top.

The Sons of Allah are tribalists, which stems from the geography of the Arabian Peninsula around 600 AD. So, when justification for plundering has to be found, an appeal to faith is handy.

For, even though the original Sons of Allah, and
all generations have stuck with the original paradigm, even though the original Sons of Allah
borrowed from the Ancient Greeks in elevating geography to the Supernatural – they will swear to their last breath that it isn’t the case. Well, it is.

They have to answer this question: Do you, in private, consign to Hades these people: Nonie Darwish, Bat Yeor, Wafa Sultan, Walid Shoebat, and anyone else who shares their perspective. If
yes, you are a 5th columnist, and you will be removed for the safety of those who affirm that there is one standard, especially when it comes to the redressing of man’s inhumanity to man. If not, then you are allowed to live among us in peace and truth. Choose this day your path.

Because, we simply will not put up with those who
fight the necessity of one standard for all, especially when it comes to redressing man’s inhumanity to man.

Nov 10, 2009 - 6:22 pm 101. Ernie G:

When he said that he held Sharia above the Constitution, he admitted that he swore the Officer’s Oath falsely, particularly the part about “any mental reservations or purpose of evasion”:

“I, _____ , having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God.”

I believe that the term for that is taqiyya: the highly moral (to muslims) practice of dissimulation in the advancement of jihad against the kuffar.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:10 pm 102. Now and Then:

96. Anne:
“They kill the children, the unborn, the innocent.”

So do American soldiers. We call it collateral damage. We consider it an unfortunate cost of war we believe to be necessary. “They” feel the same.

“supervisors” of the suicide bombers are never the ones blowing up” . . . that’s because they’re chickenhawks.

“They rasei their children in hate” . . . so do white supremicists.

There’s nothing in the Koran that specifies anything about 72 virgins. What’s the point?

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:15 pm 103. kochevnik:

99@Dave Surls:
>No, I don’t believe you, because it’s total b.s.

That’s like saying the 911 inside job was b.s. The elite have a different POV. Including Larry Silverstein who is 8 billion richer after the “lightning.” Sticking your head in the sand and dodging facts doesn’t do much for your credibility.

Nov 10, 2009 - 7:34 pm 104. Dave Surls:

“That’s like saying the 911 inside job was b.s.”

That’s true.

That’s because both of those things are b.s.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:00 pm 105. Moho:

By the way, to the guy who complimented my rudeness, I do my best. But you’re wrong, the insults do emerge from good-faith. I really do believe the people that post here have ruined our country and seek, through their boundless need to hate others, to bury the remains. What bothers me is how cheaply these people are bought. Give them the opportunity to hate people unlike themselves, and they’ll swallow poverty, humiliation, almost anything.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:09 pm 106. Moho:

People, moho was raised in that filthy sewer of a “religion” -is it any wonder he has a slave mentality and hates this country? Point at him and jeer and laugh; that’s all you can do with a mohole.

There’s nothing wrong with hating people who commit horrible acts. But this is the rhetoric of bigotry, ain’t no way around it. You’ll be a bigot no matter what the Jihadists do. It has nothing to do with Islam.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:18 pm 107. kochevnik:

90@Thomas_L…..:
>The trolls want to conflate events of the last two
>thousand years to conclude that fundamentalist
>Christians

Interesting how you gloss over the 18million burned alive under catholic priest Hitler and Sedes Sacrorum SS Nazi knight Heinrich Himmler. You deny the holocaust a lot? Let’s do a christian body count:

The Holy Roman Empire’s various ideological squabbles, mostly from the Peasants’ War, can be conservatively estimated to have caused about 100,000 deaths.
Total violence between Protestants and Catholics over disputes of religious ideology in the Middle Ages have been conservatively estimated at 14 million.
The Crusades, the old and boring example that gets trotted out routinely, have been estimated as causing around 9 million casualties total, between Muslims, Christians, and Jews.

The unabashed holocaust perpetrated against the aboriginal inhabitants of the North America is far and away the most lethal item on this list. Between the militant Catholic fundamentalists known as Conquistadors, and the deaths caused by militant Protestant fundamentalists known as Puritans using biological warfare in the form of smallpox-infected blankets against natives, the total desolation across the continent exceeded 100 million even before the American nation swept most of the rest from the continent by force.

Catholic apologists attempt to downplay the significance of the Inquisition, saying that relatively few people were ever directly affected. While controversy rages around the number of victims that can be claimed by the Inquisition, conservative estimates easily place the count in the millions. This does not include the equally vast numbers of human beings slaughtered in the various wars and other conflicts instigated over the centuries by Vatican political intrigues. Nor does it take it account the Holocaust wrought upon the Jews by the Nazis, led by Roman Catholics who used their own religious history to justify their modern excesses. As one secular history explains, “As the Germans instituted a bureaucracy of organized murder, so too did Torquemada, the first Grand Inquisitor, a worthy of predecessor of Heydrich and Eichmann.”

The witch trials of North America (Salem and Connecticut being the only two famous, but far from the only, examples) are also oft-cited examples, but they too are utterly insignificant as measures of the depravity of the average theist. 100 or less.

Hitler was a Catholic priest who had the full support of the Catholic church. This clearly goes in the Theist column. http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html. Hitler, Mussolini, who had the good sense to be non-religious in his youth but who later converted to Catholicism in 1927, and Hirohito, an avowed participant of the state religion of Japan, launched the Second World War in 1939 (or was that 1941?). The total deaths from this war have been calculated at about 72 million, including the Holocaust. The largely atheistic citizens of the Soviet Union were the biggest victims of this war of theistic expansionism.

The Ustasa regime’s mass murders, which would have been impossible had not the regime been propped up by the Catholic Church (whose fingerprints can be found in nearly every example of 20th century fascism; see “God Is Not Great” by award-winning journalist Christopher Hitchens), tally up to “hundreds of thousands.” Lets call it 200,000.

The 2003 invasion of Iraq by the avowed theocratic George W. Bush who said that the war was waged on instructions from God, launched against the (above-mentioned) theocratic Ba’ath Party of Iraq, has, between insurgents, Americans, Iraqi security, Iraqi civilians, foreign military officers, and foreign civilians, cost about 1 million lives. Bush is a Methodist, and he helped kill around 1 million people, so that’s 1 million in the Theist column. There are some reports that God really did communicate to him to go to Iraq.

The Mormon Mountain Meadows massacre was a mass slaughter of about 120 men, women, and children killed

Orthodox Christian priesthood trained Stalin, who kept his faith very private. 50 million victims of his pogroms under the theism casualties, because the new, very modern evidence against Stalin’s post-1940 atheism is damning.

The Vatican’s and Muslim leaders’ routine opposition to safe-sex practices, especially through the murderous criminals known as “missionaries” in Africa, has exasperated the HIV problem considerably and there is no way to know how many hundreds of thousands of people have died slow, agonizing deaths at the hands of HIV as a result, and how many will continue to suffer in the future.

Nov 10, 2009 - 8:27 pm 108. XiaoMei:

62. Sherab Zangpo:

I don’t understand why so many of you Folks argue with the muslimarxists who infest this forum.

I agree 100%.

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:06 pm 109. Malek Karim:

As Muslim and future marine this stupidity angers me you anti Islam people are stupid, Muslim are people just like us and a lot of them died for are freedom less then 1% is radical

Nov 10, 2009 - 9:19 pm 110. Javelin:

Chanting the usual diatribes against political correctness or the media, which seems to be a reflex with most cons, is a knee jerk cop out, much akin to blaming the weather for poor business. Aside from this jihad killer, I blame the Army, they could have headed this off a long time ago. This idea that the Army was so worried about CAIR or the NY Times whining about bigotry over one officer who was reprimanded basically says the people running the Army are both stupid and cowardly, which may be true.
The Army certainly could have shunted him off to a remote base in Oregon, etc. They could have investigated him and gave him a less than honorable discharge. The fact that the Army failed at even the most rudimentary precautions says volumes about the people running the Army, not the Washington Post or Rosie O’Donnel

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:04 pm 111. Javelin:

Honestly as much as I hate and fear the jihadists; the raw hate, threats of violence, contempt for any due process, threats against innocent unrelated people or freedoms I see in this thread don’t make me feel any safer. I think a lot of people here are just more than angry, they are unbalanced hate mongers. Obama is not responsible, this could have just as easily happened under Bush. If you have to blame someone else, start with your precious Army. Most of you are ugly crackpots who are retarded followers of Michael Weiner, I mean Savage.

Nov 10, 2009 - 10:11 pm 112. Thomas Fink:

It is hopeless to debate with the people here who are infected by this pc narrative of relativism. It is their belief system, you can not really challenge it. Like Javelin, they cannot even comprehend that it was the infection by this pc narrative which made the Army stupid and defenseless. You can only hope that they learn it the hard way or that they, when they see that they are about to learn it the hard way, at least give us the space to solve the problem for them at us.

Nov 11, 2009 - 1:14 am 113. Thomas Fink:

In the last sentence it should say: for them and us.

Nov 11, 2009 - 1:22 am 114. Donna V.:

kochevnik is an ignorant fool.

I didn’t feel one way or the other about Islam on 9/10/01. Since that time, the many, many murderous acts of Islamists, coupled with the incessant whining and excuses and self-justifications of their fellow Muslims have given me a very negative view of that faith. You don’t want people to despise you? Then stop killing people in the name of your faith. Stop killing your daughters because they are too Westernized or *gasp* talked to an infidel man. Stop treating pyschotic suicide bombers like heroes and stop your Jew-hating and recognize Israel’s right to exist. Stop turning Western Europe into the same sewer you left in the ME. All the so-called “moderate” Muslims out there, stop defending your nutcases and crying “persecution” because someone gave you a funny look in the grocery store. If you hate America, leave it and go back to your own benighted countries where you can beat and kill women and blow each other up to your heart’s content.

The greatest victimizers in the world cry incessantly about what poor little victims they are and demand respect. You haven’t done anything to deserve it and despite the MSM and the demented ravings of the trolls here (most of whom display the most vicious bigotry toward and ignorance of Christianity day in and day out), people are getting it. Sorry, but 2 + 2 does not equal 5, no matter how loudly you scream that it does.

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:04 am 115. Anonymous:

Javelin: “I think a lot of people here are just more than angry, they are unbalanced hate mongers”

Quickly resorting to name calling and class warfare suggests cognitive immaturity and, thusly, futility in any attempt toward reasoned dialog. A sad commentary, indeed, on what has become of the American political landscape and tolerance toward others with divergent opinions.

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:13 am 116. David P:

Hey Malek,
I agree, no excuse for generalizations, individuals are responsible for their actions, but the figures of a of the sub population are still frightening.

1% of 1,200,000,000 = 12,000,000 Million Radicals!

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:25 am 117. Thomas_L.....:

Javelin? I’m always amused at the nom de guerres taken by our “peace loving” lefties. You make me laugh out loud, Mr. smartie pants.

Nov 11, 2009 - 5:25 am 118. Anonymous:

26. moho:

You’re relying on the predictable vast ignorance of your audience and it will work for you. But you and I both know that Al Q’aeda, at the time you’re pointing out here, was allied with the US against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

You may know that, but it’s not actually true:

The story about bin Laden and the CIA — that the CIA funded bin Laden or trained bin Laden — is simply a folk myth. There’s no evidence of this. In fact, there are very few things that bin Laden, Ayman al-Zawahiri and the U.S. government agree on. They all agree that they didn’t have a relationship in the 1980s. And they wouldn’t have needed to. Bin Laden had his own money, he was anti-American and he was operating secretly and independently.

The real story here is the CIA didn’t really have a clue about who this guy was until 1996 when they set up a unit to really start tracking him.

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:42 am 119. Mr Lucky:

105. Moho.

“By the way, to the guy who complimented my rudeness, I do my best.”

Your comments are your best attempt at rudness? Come now, what would Van Jones do to make it more rude?

“But you’re wrong, the insults do emerge from good-faith.”

Good faith insults. Somewhat like good faith murder at Ft. Hood?

Check this out – a Moho calling others bigoted. Well, in Moho world, one might say mmm, mmm, mmm.

“I really do believe the people that post here have ruined our country and seek, through their boundless need to hate others, to bury the remains. What bothers me is how cheaply these people are bought. Give them the opportunity to hate people unlike themselves, and they’ll swallow poverty, humiliation, almost anything.”

Then. Check your mirror Moho.

“But this is the rhetoric of bigotry, ain’t no way around it. You’ll be a bigot no matter what the Jihadists do.”

Or what Moho decrees. “No way around it.” Everyone is a bigot. Except Moho.

Does anyone ever escape from Moho world?

Is there a discontinuity between the Moho and his mirror?

Which Moho is commenting here? Which mirror?

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:51 am 120. Moho:

Fink:

It is hopeless to debate with the people here who are infected by this pc narrative of relativism.

Hopeless for you, moron, yes. I’ve yet to see you try to actually argue any points against mine. You fools always do this when anyone comes in here armed with facts and reason. Jump on a little stool clutching your pearls and swooning, “oh please don’t engage those trolls. They are dogmatic!”. Well, you’re welcome to prove it, but I doubt you have the requisite brainpower.

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:53 am 121. jic:

Sorry, #118 Anonymous was actually me.

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:56 am 122. Moho:

Anonymous. Well, you seem rather proud of your illiteracy. I didn’t mention Bin Laden:

But you and I both know that Al Q’aeda, at the time you’re pointing out here, was allied with the US against the Soviets in Afghanistan. You’d have to talk about how our country nurtured these Islamists in the first place and you won’t do that, because it doesn’t fit into your [insert red scare/menace] here McCarthyism.

Even people who don’t believe there is a direct connection with Bin Laden, are aware of the fact that we funneled money through Pakistan to support Islamists. We funded their rise to power. There’s no way around it.

I served in Afghanistan in the 1970s and later directed cross-border support to Afghanistan. I know the dramatis personae of the whole cross-border period, including the years that I wasn’t there, very well.

The United States didn’t “create” Bin Laden (his mother and God did that). We didn’t even knowingly work with him in Afghanistan.
What we did do was:

* Facilitate Arab funding for the fight against the Russians

* Use the Pakistani intelligence services as intermediaries far more that was prudent

* Tolerate the modest number of “Arab fighters” who joined the cause because we assumed that while they were not militarily significant, they were somehow a necessary part of keeping the flow of private Arab funding at substantial levels.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2006/01/17/the_cia_did_not_create_bin_lad/

In the context of my original comment, which was to show that in the time period this article references, the US had very good relations with Islamists, this is very relevant. Indeed, the reason the US chose to fund Islamists, rather than other groups, was to make sure that no communists or socialist groups would become contenders. That had been the MO of the US and Israel until the end of the cold war. Indeed, Israel encouraged the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine as an antidote to the secular FATAH. The Brotherhood, so empowered, and with little Palestinian popular support, splintered off to become HAMAS. The strategies seem completely logical, but incredibly short-sighted. One must wonder what they thought was going to happen once they got rid of FATAH; and in the Afghan-US case, the communists. Some really enlightened government that was going to welcome coca cola, big macs and sex tourism? No, they didn’t think this far ahead, and so the current state of affairs should make perfect sense to anyone who’s bothered to pay attention.

By the way, you don’t know what you’re talking about. Come back for more schooling any time, I enjoy making people like you look like fools.

Nov 11, 2009 - 8:18 am 123. BettyBlue:

moho’s points:

1. Islam is always right.

2. When Islam is wrong—see Rule #1.

Nov 11, 2009 - 8:27 am 124. Javelin:

To all the stupid brutal low brows here:
1) I am not talking about all the people here, just the majority
2) I am not a peace loving leftie, Thomas, just not an ugly little cretin like you.
3) What plans and ideas do any of you have that don’t involve random acts of violence and revenge against innocent parties or institutionalized bigotry? Because it seems like this guy was just a free lance jihadist. Should we burn his mosque down or jail his family in some violent knee jerk spasm?

All you seem to be doing is parroting back a bunch of generalized nonsense about “relativism” and the PC narrative. That is as phony as it is anti-intellectual.
It’s just that you are such spineless military worshippers, the only branch of government you admire, that you can’t bring yourself to believe that mental midgets (like you) in the Army screwed up, so you go for the stock excuses that this 2 bit blog or talk radio put into your woefully undersized craniums. Your precious infallible military idols could have easily given him a discharge or transfered him to a remote post somewhere out west. I don’t believe for a minute that the Army’s incompetence had anything to do with “pc narrative” or “relativism” or any such pseudo intellectual nonsense like that.

Finally to prove what a midget you are, I agreed that this killer was motivated by Islamic jihad, yet you had the gall to level your anti-PC charge at me.

Nov 11, 2009 - 8:30 am 125. Omar:

Moho:

“But you and I both know that Al Q’aeda, at the time you’re pointing out here, was allied with the US against the Soviets in Afghanistan. You’d have to talk about how our country nurtured these Islamists in the first place and you won’t do that, because it doesn’t fit into your [insert red scare/menace] here McCarthyism.”

_____________

Oh no you don’t. The entire Salafi movement and the massive deobandi establishment that permeates Af/Pak is YOUR baby. It gains traction because of its scrupulous adherence to the example of Mohammad and the traditional texts. It’s claim to represent “pure islam” resonates precisely it DOES represent pure islam – and recognizably so, as islamists from Birmingham to Sulawesi can attest. . . . Instead of blaming America, Israel, anyone and anything but islam for the brutal – and utterly predictable – end product of the teachings of the “profit,” why not take responsibility for a change?

Nov 11, 2009 - 9:11 am 126. deguello:

#124JAVELIN olitical correctness has paralyzed common sense in the military and throughout society.No one in the army screwed up, save the Commander in Chief,and his PC appeasing dept.of justice whose guidelines,made it impossible to isolate this freak, before he could do harm.Keep trashing talk radio;it grows the medium,and increases its credibility.”Mental midgets”,this is why you and other leftists would never qualify to serve in the army. Do we have ideas? Here’s one, remind Muslims that it’s liberalism, in its obscene entertainment(MA DONA,EMINEN,),Hollywood(LARRY DAVID urinating on a crucifix),and ART(excrement on a statue of the virgin Mary)that is the REAL ENEMY. Let’s see how long PC survives if a suicide bomber decides to pay a visit to the OSCARS or some MTV festival.How about this PJMrs? Let’s write to CAIR and suggest these alternatives to attacking our soldiers.

Nov 11, 2009 - 9:18 am 127. deguello:

JAVELIN? Is what how describe your “equipment” to your NAMBLA-provided boyfriend? Mental(and only mental) midget indeed!

Nov 11, 2009 - 9:21 am 128. deguello:

122 MOHO: Yes,we DID support muslim extremists(and other Muslim freedom fighters)in Afghanistan. Did you know,cretin, that in WW2 we were allied with Stalin(your hero) because it was the only way to liberate Europe? What part of the word REALPOLITIK can’t you understand.I know you are furious that our alliance with Muslim radicals helped destroy the Soviet slave state;but relax Commie,there’s always Cuba, and Obama.Keep spewing, libtard troll,you are a great source of amusement here,and no doubt to others who watch your daily caperings with all the fascination of public health officials concerned with the scourge of tertiary syphillis.

Nov 11, 2009 - 9:38 am 129. arthur:

this was a good piece about the need to get proactive on the threat. As far as Islam v. Islamic jihad debate, they are not the same thing. In the former we are told that if someone attacks your country or home then you must defend yourself and Islam. in the latter we are told that all Americans, infidels must die etc. it is not useful to confuse the two, it is actually an aid to the enemy and a disservice to our country, everything we stand for, and a distraction from the critical thinking needed to defeat our enemy and secure our homeland.

Nov 11, 2009 - 9:52 am 130. NS:

For these critics to say that you can’t target jihadist ideology without targeting the whole of Islam is an acknowledgment on their part that the two are inseparable — a point I doubt they are ready to concede. Regardless, they can’t have it both ways: either jihadist ideology has nothing to do with Islam, as Islamic groups constantly represent, and thus it can be addressed without infringing on their freedom of religion; or they must admit, along with the “Islamophobes,” that jihadist ideology and the violence it promotes are part and parcel with Islam. The question for these critics is unavoidable: which is it?

I have not seen any one phrase this important question out so well… Let me attempt to answer that with my theory.

There is no doubt that Islam as a religion openly encourages violence and is conquest minded. To deny that is to deny reality. How ever with all that being said, most Muslims are discerning enough not to agree with violence that is advocated. They are not ready to interpret the Koran or the Hadiths literally- This is why we see most of them behaving normally, trying to make a living like most other people in this world do.

This is why it is wrong to call Osama Bin Laden or Al-Qaeda or its followers as radical -they are Islamic fundamentalists who interpret the Koran literally – they believe that its the written word of God delivered to an illiterate (Prophet Muhammad) JUST SO that it cannot be “intellectually interpreted”.

This is EXACTLY why, very few if any Muslim clerics ever come out against Al-Qaeda, the Muslim Brotherhood, the Palestinian terrorists etc – what are they going to say ?? ” We are SO MAD that you are literally interpreting the Koran ?”

Just look at the root cause of the bitterness that the Sunnis and Shias have for each other – the fundamentalist Sunnis dont even consider the Shias as Muslim ! How ever discerning Sunni Muslims dont share this attitude – which is why for all the bitterness and hatred that Shia and Sunni fundamentalists have for each other, most Sunnis and Shias are discerning enough to maintain some what normal relations with each other.

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:04 am 131. Moho:

What part of the word REALPOLITIK can’t you understand.

I suppose if you don’t understand the dynamics of things its rather comforting to draw analogies between circumstances that have nothing in common. What a wonderful world of fantasy you must live in Deguello, where anything that sounds or looks alike at first glance, is exactly the same no matter what the underlying differences. I suppose you’re equally thankful for transvestites, since they look like women, but will actually allow you to touch them.

Here’s the thing. We were in a war in WWII. We were not in the eighties. We enabled an insurgency to weaken and mire the USSR in a bloody fight. We did it to hurt Russia, not defeat them, not to actually gain anything. We had no interest in Afghanistan other than that, our safety as Americans was not dependent on our involvement. In short, only an idiot would compare Stalin to Al Qaeda.

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:22 am 132. Moho:

Instead of blaming America, Israel, anyone and anything but islam for the brutal – and utterly predictable – end product of the teachings of the “profit,” why not take responsibility for a change?

I laughed for a long, long time after reading this. Self-Pwnage Media is a literally a hymnal of shirking responsibility. The idea of Republicans, who ran both houses and the executive for nearly seven years of the last decade, are now excoriating the Democrats after they’ve had little over a year in power has to be the most incredible example of the white trash ethic ever to appear on the public screen. The entire movement of the people here has been based for years on scapegoats and responsibility-shirking. Its the boon you drones are given, in exchange for your unflinching support for the business interests actively involved in diminishing your standard of living. No dumber, more corrupt people have lived in this epoch.

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:53 am 133. JR Dogman:

Moho,

Re: “I really do believe the people that post here have ruined our country and seek, through their boundless need to hate others, to bury the remains.”

How specifically did they ruin it? And how are they now seeking to bury the remains?

I’m not asking this in a wiseassey way, and if you feel you have answered this question cumulatively via earlier posts, forgive me — but I really would like to hear your answers here, in a discrete post devoted only to these questions.

Thanks.

JR Dogman

PS As much as I admire your insult wizardry, Moho, I would like to say (though I am sure you realize this already) that, if you do truly think the posters here are ruining our country, that is a real problem. As such, if you think there is any chance of showing them how they are in error (and so inspiring them to stop contributing to said ruin), insulting them is the wrong way to go about it. No question, you’re great at needling people, but if you really believe what you say, then maybe you need to step away from this comfortable exercise, and try something more difficult: persuasion.

Granted, persuading people is much harder than needling them. Also, needless to say, you could argue that people so dumb and uneducated as you believe the posters here to generally be could not be reached by any logical argument, so why bother? But I think that would be a cop-out. In short, I think you should embrace the challenge of trying to lay out your case here very clearly. Take the view that people *will* be able to follow your reasoning, and be patient: if at first they are not able to see what you are saying, keep trying. Even if they respond to you with nasty comments, I think you should reply not in kind, but continue to attempt to explain your thoughts.

If the country is being ruined as you say it is, that is very serious, no? Too serious, I think, for you to waste time amusing yourself and letting off steam by insulting people. Doing that comes naturally to you, as I have said: somehow, you manage to reply to people here with the same insults over and over, yet make them sound fresh and biting every time. But even on the Titanic many lives were saved–had you been there, would you have wanted to have sat around on a deck chair cracking jokes about how the bunch of you were doomed, and it was idiotic to try to do anything to fight such fate? No, of course not. That’s the attitude I think you should take here.

(On a side note, again, I really think that if you are funny in person, you should put together some material and go to a comedy club on open-mic night and try your hand at being an insult comic, a la Don Rickles.)

Nov 11, 2009 - 12:39 pm 134. Federale:

Like when the communists infiltrated Fort Manmouth and were exposed in the Army-McCarthy hearings. Even though it was obvious there were Reds at the base, they publically denied the obvious.

Nov 11, 2009 - 1:00 pm 135. Adrian Wainer:

I don’t blame the US military I blame the politicians, the dogs on the street could work out that Saudi Arabia is attempting to turn America in to an Islamic State. Until the US redefines it relationship with Saudi Arabia, one can only expect problems like mass killings on US territory by Jihadists to get worse and worse. The United States Federal Government needs to choke off Saudi funding of, US mosques, US schools and colleges,and Muslim lobbying groups. It should be a Federal offence carrying a large fine for such organizations based in the United States to accept funding from Saudi Arabia.

Nov 11, 2009 - 1:29 pm 136. Moho:

How specifically did they ruin it?

The fact that you even ask such a question makes me hate you. One war of convenience, instigated by what has been incontrovertibly proven to be a campaign of lies by a cynical government. The idle handling of an occupation that continues to kill innocent Afghans while contributing nothing to the country but perhaps the most purposefully corrupt government ever created. All that at an incredible cost to taxpayers that will most likely result in our nation becoming a protectorate of China within a generation. Then, as if that sh&^% sundae needed a cherry, your disgusting attempts to divert attention away from that by launching an incredibly ignorant and offensive McCarthy witch-hunt of Islam and Muslims. I could go on. Anyone who doesn’t know these things by now ruins the country every time they vote. The only thing you could tell me that would not make me consider you an agent of everything that is evil on this earth would be that you’re not a registered voter!

As such, if you think there is any chance of showing them how they are in error (and so inspiring them to stop contributing to said ruin), insulting them is the wrong way to go about it.

I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. Polite, structured standard arguments end in temporary accommodation. Nothing is gained or lost, nothing learned. If I think you’re inordinate stupidity is ruining your country, I don’t see what being polite about it will do. You people need to be stopped. If you need to be shocked into countenancing your own willful ignorance and stupidity, then its my pleasure and duty to do so. If anything, all I see from polite politics is my having to say things like “most Americans can agree to disagree on Iraq, but we must take care of our soldiers”. I don’t agree to disagree on any of these issues. \

And if you can’t defend your points, one way or the other–in a public venue or at home in front of the mirror–you’ll have to admit you’re wrong. The rest is up to you. My experience is that most of you, when confronted with the absolute horror of what you’ve wrought on the earth through comforting calls to demagoguery and reactionary hatred of other peoples throughout the world, seek to change the subject yet again to the next group of people that are a danger to our world empire. So, scr$%% your call to politeness. If you’re too afraid to defend your opinions against a factual based appeal to reason, I’d respect you more if you simply said so.

Nov 11, 2009 - 1:53 pm 137. deguello:

#94 DWIGHT “What a sweet mouth you have” Watch it pederast, I’m not one of the NAMBLA cuties,George Soros pays you with.Please explain to us how voting out Obama,and with him his PC ideologues which are neutering our anti-terrorist capability,threatens the constitution.No, we don’t have to wait 3 years,(there’s less than a year left before we obliterate him politically, by returning a republican majority to congress. I’m impressed by your ability to count to three,but you are still a mental and physical midget.Speaking of threats to the constitution, what do you think of Obama’s attempts to marginalize Fox,or his FCC commietsars plan to shut down talk radio.It seems to me that these are the REAL threats to the constitution.That and Islamic terrorists.

Nov 11, 2009 - 2:16 pm 138. deguello:

#131 Nice try with the tranvestite joke,but save it for father’s day,your dad will be honored.Read some of the Russian intelligence reports to the effect that the Loss of Afghanistan, together,with other reagan policies,such as star wars,were critically important in destroying the soviet Union.We werenot involved in a war with the USSR? The state whose premier said would “bury us”?Not only do you not comprehend realpolitik, you don’t even know what the word war,AS IN COLD WAR means.Only a cretin refuses to believe that our confrontation with the Soviets was not a war.Tell your daddy to take you for a psychiatric evaluation,but make sure he leaves the bra,panties, and high heels at home.

Nov 11, 2009 - 2:27 pm 139. Moho:

Nice try with the tranvestite joke,but save it for father’s day,your dad will be honored.

If you can’t make a decent argument, at least learn to tell a decent joke.

Nov 11, 2009 - 3:25 pm 140. ETAB:

moho – you wrote:

“And if you can’t defend your points, one way or the other–in a public venue or at home in front of the mirror–you’ll have to admit you’re wrong.”

That’s the point. As many have pointed out to you, it is YOU who fails to defend your points. All you do when someone critiques your opinions, is insult them. You never rationally and empirically explain and defend your opinion. You don’t provide facts. You provide only your opinion about events,..and lots of insults.

You say you provid: “a factual based appeal to reason”. No, you provide your personal opinion. No facts. No reasoned argument.

You constantly insult anyone who tries to argue with you. But how does this accomplish anything? Does it stop any of us from our opinions? Does it persuade anyone to change their view? What do your insults accomplish?

What witch hunt of Muslims and Islam? It happens to be an empirical FACT that Islamic terrorists have carried out terrorist attacks all over the globe, before 9/11 and after. Do you refuse to acknowledge these and the open declarations in support of such attacks by imams in various mosques? Do you deny these attacks and these public exhortations to “kill infidels’?

Nov 11, 2009 - 3:54 pm 141. AST:

I expect that Americans will express their opinions of the government’s failure to protect itself and us from these body-snatchers. I only wish I knew how many of us are still people and not pods.

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:09 pm 142. Moho:

What witch hunt of Muslims and Islam? It happens to be an empirical FACT that Islamic terrorists have carried out terrorist attacks all over the globe, before 9/11 and after. Do you refuse to acknowledge these and the open declarations in support of such attacks by imams in various mosques? Do you deny these attacks and these public exhortations to “kill infidels’?

Your need to extend the guilt to all of Islam shows your motives. In any event, Islamic violence is the least of your problems as I’ve noted. Your country is falling apart, you’ve wasted all your money on needless wars THAT HAVEN’T MADE YOU SAFER. And you’ve given a pass to corporations for eight years as they’ve reamed YOU! The last problem a cowardly shmoe like you, grovelling in some suburban cul de sac, has to fear is Islamic terrorism lol.

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:19 pm 143. Dave Surls:

“3) What plans and ideas do any of you have that don’t involve random acts of violence and revenge against innocent parties or institutionalized bigotry?”

Well, one plan would be to arrest military officers who preach sedition, and charge them under Article 94 of the UCMJ, BEFORE they engage in an active mutiny and kill 14 of our guys.

You also might want to impeach our so-called president and get a commander-in-chief who at least understands that a mutiny has just taken place, and who will actually do something about it, instead of some clueless fool who doesn’t even know what the words “treason” and “mutiny” mean, and probably thinks this is some sort of mental health issue.

That’s a good place to start anyway.

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:27 pm 144. ETAB:

Again, moho, you simply won’t address the issue. You brush off Islamic terrorism as irrelevant..as ‘the least of your problems’.

I don’t think that Islamic terrorism, an active agenda in the world, is a minor problem. Why do you refuse to even acknowledge that it exists? Islamic fundamentalism, the base for Islamic terrorism, is a very important ideology because it is preventing the ME from moving out of 7th c tribalism and into a modern civic political structure.

I’m not sure which wars you are referring to as ‘needless’. My view is that the Iraq War, which freed the Iraqi people from a dictatorship, was necesary; it has enabled those people to set up a constitutional and civic democracy there.

Afghanistan, which is a UN/NATO agenda, is far more difficult than Iraq because of Pakistan sympathies for Islamic fascism and because of the backward tribalism of the area. If they would not promote Islamic terrorism, there would be no need for war.

But why won’t you deal with the reality of Islamic funamentalism and terrorism? My neighbor lost her husband in 9/11. It’s real. Why won’t you deal with it? All you do when someone brings up Islamic terrorism – is insult that person. So much for your reason and logic!

Nov 11, 2009 - 4:52 pm 145. JR Dogman:

Moho,

Thank you for the reply. Just a couple of questions, though:

1) Re “Anyone who doesn’t know these things by now ruins the country every time they vote”, if that is so, how should I and others here vote in the future? Specifically, for which party, and which candidates? Say, in the 2010 elections? (”Stay home” won’t do for an answer, by the way.)

2) Re “You people need to be stopped. If you need to be shocked into countenancing your own willful ignorance and stupidity, then its my pleasure and duty to do so,” this is good, as here you have stated your goal: You want to stop us.

The question is, however, are you going about acheiving this goal in the most effective manner possible?

Let’s break it down a bit:

The first sentence of the second quote above is very aggressive, but the second much less so. That is, when you say we need to be “stopped”, that is some strong language. Myself, if I overheard someone on the street saying, “… needs to be stopped,” I probably would think they were talking about a murderer or some other criminal, or a terrorist group or individual, etc.

On the other hand, I might also think of our Congress, as I very much believe they need to be stopped. In my view, we must make our government stop spending money we don’t have, and stop making more financial commitments we can’t possibly meet down the line. In this instance, though, talking about Congress, such tough language has a very certain, proven method for reaching the stated goal: by writing letters to our representatives, attending townhall meetings, and by talking to our relatives, coworkers, friends, to as many people as we can, to try to get *them* to join us in our efforts, we may in fact stop congress, via their fear of being punished at the ballot box, and, if that fear is not enough, by voting the bums out.

Thus, when you say “you people must be stopped”, your words have the tough ring such words always have. But then, what you go on to say immediately after that reveals that you have no reliable method to acheive your goal of stopping us. In essence, your stated plan of action is to *harangue* us into stopping, but such methodology seems highly unlikely to acheive your aim. In fact, I don’t see how you can *possibly* get even close to acheiving it, by repeatedly calling people stupid, uneducated, bigoted, etc. On the contrary, do doing you are most likely simply going to fire us up to oppose you even more.

Without question, that result is terrible for you personally; and, what is more, it may turn out to be terrible for the rest of us: After all, what if you are right? You’ll have made yourself a Cassandra, needlessly, and we all will lose.

Sitting at your computer, doubtless it amuses you to throw out your (as I have said) deftly snarky jabs — you are good at it. But that’s not your real objective, as you have made clear. You are a concerned citizen, worried about serious issues, with the serious goal of alerting others about same. So how can you accomplish this? Well, consider: if you want to stop us from arguing for policies you disagree with, and from voting for politicians who intend to advance such policies, when you get right down to it you have two choices. Either you must (a) physically prevent us from stating our views and from voting; or (b) persuade us our views are wrong, and so convince us to agitate for the policies you think are right and vote for politicians you think will advance those policies.

To stop us using method (a) would not only be illegal, it would be impossible. In any event, in your second sentence of the second quote above, you seem to be saying that you intend to use method (b). But nobody is going to be harangued into changing their views. You’re alienating people, Moho, by the way you address them.

In short, to acheive your aim, I see no choice for you: you must adjust your methodology.

Look, I want to make clear, I get your passion. When you say, “Polite, structured standard arguments end in temporary accommodation. Nothing is gained or lost, nothing learned”, I get what you’re saying. It *does* feel that way a lot of the time, and I have in the past often felt that way myself. But the truth is it only *feels* that way: almost without exception, it is via “polite, structured standard arguments” that people are sold on new ideas, on ideas that conflict with the ones they’ve long held or hold passionately.

As I said before, I realize it isn’t easy to persuade people to change their political views. But you are clearly an intelligent person, and, while I don’t know if you are as brilliant as you seem to think you are (after all, I don’t know you, just as you don’t know me or most of the other posters on this site), but if you do honestly believe that you are smarter than most people posting here, and further that you have the correct understanding of the important challenges we are today facing as U.S. citizens (and as human beings, generally speaking), you should be able to undertake crafting a politely-reasoned, detailed case for your views with great confidence. And I for one am willing to hear you out.

Nov 11, 2009 - 5:16 pm 146. Moho:

I don’t think that Islamic terrorism, an active agenda in the world, is a minor problem.

I’ve never denied it exists. This case doesn’t seem to have been motivated by terrorism, any more than the other murders I noted that have occured at our military bases. Can you explain those murders? By Iraq veterans just come home from the glorious war you told them would liberate the Middle East, you little coward?

By any objective measure, in any case, Islamic terrorism has been the least of our problems. Eight years of needless war have impoverished us to such a degree that we’ll be lucky to round out the quarter century mark as an intact nation. You are witnessing the death knell of a nation, and as usual, the very people who egged it on are constantly on the look out for new minor villains to hang their concerns on. Perhaps because the problems we have in our country are not as easy as blaming an entire religion for the acts of a few hundred, you’d rather look for Jihadists in the wood pile. Nearly as many people died in car accidents in New York in 2001 as did in the WTC.

According to the preliminary data for traffic fatalities across the country, there were 31,110 deaths from January to October 2008. Although this number represents a 10 percent decline from 2007, which had 41,059 deaths caused by traffic accidents during the entire year, the number is still alarming. Based on these figures, over one hundred people are killed in a car accident each day or other traffic-related crash. In New York, there were 1,333 people killed in traffic accidents in 2007 alone.

Face it. Were we to stop all forms of terrorism tomorrow, we would still have crazed gunmen going to workplace or school to kill all of their friends and co-workers. More importantly, we would still have dug a hole for ourselves so deep that we’ll be digging out for decades. In fact, if we ever start digging out. Given how many idiots like you prefer to gaze at their navel and wallow in petty fears and antagonisms, simply for the pleasure that bigotry brings to their dull, useless and uneventful lives, I’m pretty sure we won’t even start excavating ourselves for a long time to come.

Laslty, like the others, I can’t understand this answer for you, sorry. Get your wife to help you, I’m done with your illiterate self.

Nov 11, 2009 - 5:49 pm 147. deguello:

#140 MOHO It’s impossible to make a “decent” joke about an indecent libtard.However,if you continue to ignore your rampaging spyrochetes you’ll soon become a decedent (decent or otherwise).

Nov 11, 2009 - 6:23 pm 148. Moho:

Deguello. I actually have started to feel sorry for you. Its like watching a mentally retarded middle aged man trying to learn to read. Even I have difficulty continuing to point out you stupidity.

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:01 pm 149. JR Dogman:

Re “Eight years of needless war have impoverished us to such a degree that we’ll be lucky to round out the quarter century mark as an intact nation”, if we do collapse financially, I don’t think it will be because of the cost of the wars in Afg. and Iraq. Our unfunded SS and Medicare liabilities are the real looming fiscal problem.

Not that the wars didn’t cost a lot of money, they did; and if you feel they were utterly needless, then of course their expense would irk you. Also, the cost in military casualties. But I think if you add up the numbers, what really threatens to break our back are the unfunded liabilities (among others) listed above.

I could be wrong, though. Do you happen to have a rough cost estimate of the two wars on hand, Moho?

Nov 11, 2009 - 7:51 pm 150. JR Dogman:

Answered my own question:

“About The Cost of War:

To date, $915.1 billion dollars have been allocated to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The national, state, and local numbers we provide are based on the total approved amounts through the end of Fiscal Year 2009.

In addition to this approved amount, the FY2010 budget shows a $130 billion request for more war spending. This would bring total war spending in Iraq and Afghanistan to more than $1 trillion. When all FY2010 war-related amounts are approved, we will adjust the counter so that it reaches the new total at the end of FY2010.

If you should compare the amount displayed on the numbers in our information sheets with the Cost of War counter, please note that the information sheets include all war spending approved to date, the same number that the counter will reach at the end of the 2009 fiscal year.”

from http://www.nationalpriorities.org/costofwar_home

Nov 11, 2009 - 8:43 pm 151. Javelin:

deguello
I have learned from the past that engaging your brutal simple mind in any sort of debate is waste of time and only lowers me to your level.
So what is your solution, nuke Jeddah?

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:14 pm 152. Rashputin:

I’ve been giving it a lot of thought, and the only way to be totally fair with the Muslims in this country is to treat them exactly the way Christians and others are treated in Islamic nations. They should be forced to pay the dimi tax, should not be allowed to own or bring into the country a copy of the Koran, and all Mosques should be torn down or burned. In addition, no Muslim should be allowed to enter the military, politics, or any educational institution either as a student or a member of the faculty or administration. Other limitations would need to be in place as well to ensure they didn’t stray too close to the religious institutions of other faiths and to insure that they’ve not had contact with anyone of their own faith except in controlled and approved ways. Furthermore, they should never be allowed to raise their children as Muslims.

It’s only fair to treat them as they treat others since anything less would be something they’re not culturally capable of dealing with and therefore suffer the undue strain of having to cope with other cultures and value systems. Just look at moho, he struggles to justify the unjustifiable every day and thinks that’s playing his role in the jihad when he really knows that he’s just soaking up the benefits of this society while he tries to justify what Islam calls cowardice by spewing BS here. He knows that he’s a typical hypocritical Muslim, but he can’t handle the reality of liking this society more than the ones where Islam rules. If he were forced to submit to the US system in very real and visible ways like all but Muslims are forced to submit in Islamic nations, he’d either leave or choose sides. As it stands now, he’s blathering a lot to make himself feel less guilt over enjoying Western society, but hoping like hell that the Islamic side doesn’t win and make the Western world into a sack of crap the way it has done everywhere it rules.

Help moho and others like him out by punishing them for being Muslim and let them feel like they’ve been forced to adapt or let them leave. Anything less is cruel and unusual, especially pretending that Islam is just another religion when those who adhere to it insist it is much more.

Regards

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:16 pm 153. Javelin:

Dave Surls,
Your paranoid demented ravings about Obama are a hat-trick:
Treasonous, bigoted, vile!
I know this sounds pretty elitist, but most of the people here, starting with Super Schwein Throatcut, are demented, moronic fascist retards who use the flag as camouflage. You are mainly a bunch of hate filled cranks, with nothing but the crudest thought levels. No wonder why Palin is so admired here, she can be the Den Mother to this overgrown demented Cub Scout pack. All your solutions and abuse are in the same league as the problem. Just more paranoia to keep us all scared and full of hate. It is pointless to argue with any of you, you just want to kill someone and it shows.

Nov 11, 2009 - 10:25 pm 154. Morrisminor:

JR Dogman,
You seem to like taking Moho on, but you tolerate such trash like Deguello. Deguello is the de facto spokeman for Pajamedia Media since his hate and brutality have been a fixture here for longer than I can remember yet none of you righteous folks have ever called him out on his crap.

Nov 12, 2009 - 1:19 am 155. Javelin:

BettyBlue’s points:
I am a right wing mouthpiece, anyone who disagrees with me is the enemy!

Nov 12, 2009 - 1:29 am 156. ETAB:

The interesting thing about Moho, apart from his endless insults and refusal to deal with questions and criticism, is his inability to make reasoned and logical evaluations.

When you criticize Islamic terrorism, which he now admits in one sentence, does exist, he trivializes it by telling us that more people are killed in traffic accidents. Thus, he feels he, and we, ought to ignore Islamic terrorism. Moho’s only evaluation of a problem is: number of people killed….in year. Not even at one time; So, he ignores 9/11, an event in one place at one time, because he can point to an annual, yearlong list of traffic accidents over an entire geographic terrain. Neat tactic but empirically unvalid.

Of course, the fact that one is intentional and the other is an accident doesn’t enter his evaluative list. If we go along with moho’s table, we’d have to acknowledge that heart attacks and cancerand other diseases kill more than these two.

So,presumably, we should ignore those traffic accidents, and not try to build better roads, cars, safety features, and regulate driving.

Should we equally end all medical research, close all hospitals, and end treatment for these diseases? After all, moho operates his evaluation of things we should pay attention to only by ‘number of people killed’..over a year, and over a large geographic terrain.

The intention – is removed. To moho, there’s no difference between an accident, a germ, a genetic cause, and an intentional action to harm. The ONLY criterion is: number per year over a geographic terrain.

Equally, moho ignores psychological intentionality versus ideological intentionality.

And he considers that he is logical and empirical! Whew.

Nov 12, 2009 - 6:17 am 157. jic:

#122 Moho:

So, your definition of allied is ‘operating against a common enemy in the same theater, and allied with some of our allies’? We did not fund or train Al Qaeda and were not allied with them, even if they did indirectly benefit from our funding and training of others. If you had said ‘we funded the people who later became the Taliban’, I wouldn’t have argued (even if that omits the fact that we also funded the people who ended up fighting against the Taliban).

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:59 am 158. Moho:

JR Dogman…

War costs may total $2.4 trillion

WASHINGTON — The cost of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could total $2.4 trillion through the next decade, or nearly $8,000 per man, woman and child in the country, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate scheduled for release Wednesday.

A previous CBO estimate put the wars’ costs at more than $1.6 trillion. This one adds $705 billion in interest, taking into account that the conflicts are being funded with !!!!borrowed money!!!.

The new estimate also includes President Bush’s request Monday for another $46 billion in war funding, said Rep. John Spratt, D-S.C., budget committee chairman, who provided the CBO’s new numbers to USA TODAY.

Assuming that Iraq accounts for about 80% of that total, the Iraq war would cost $1.9 trillion, including $564 billion in interest, said Thomas Kahn, Spratt’s staff director. The committee holds a hearing on war costs this morning.

“The number is so big, it boggles the mind,” said Rep. Rahm Emanuel, D-Ill.

Sean Kevelighan, a spokesman for the White House budget office, said, “Congress should stop playing politics with our troops by trying to artificially inflate war funding levels.” He declined to provide a White House estimate.

The CBO estimates assume that 75,000 troops will remain in both countries through 2017, including roughly 50,000 in Iraq. That is a “very speculative” projection, though it’s not entirely unreasonable, said Loren Thompson, a defense analyst at the non-partisan Lexington Institute.

As of Sept. 30, the two wars have cost $604 billion, the CBO says. Adjusted for inflation, that is higher than the costs of the Korea and Vietnam conflicts, according to the Washington-based Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments.

Defense spending during those two wars accounted for a far larger share of the American economy.

In the months before the March 2003 Iraq invasion, the Bush administration estimated the Iraq war would cost no more than $50 billion.

If you like throwing money away, you could have backed an even bigger stimulus and given each man, woman and child A level health care for life! Nope, we’d rather throw it away killing and maiming our children and people from other countries. You’ll pay just about anything for the masculine pride you feel as our military destroys things on television. Disgusting ignoramuses.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:25 am 159. Moho:

JLC…read more carefully. The money we gave to Pakistan was used to organize the groups and individuals that came to form al qaeda. The idea that Bin Ladin is the extent of Al Qaeda is seriously stupid.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:34 am 160. Moho:

Look up at post #57 by ETAB. In that post, he references the fact that, just in October of this year, there were 156 attacks by Jihadist, in 15 countries around the world, resulting in over 900 dead.

You people seem intent on earning the reputation you have for low-level cognitive function. How many attacks by US military do you suppose happened that month? Are you keeping track of how many attacks on population centers occur on a daily basis in our theatres of war? Is it possible those Jihadist attacks occurred where we’re actually also attacking. Silliness from people who don’t know any better. There’s nothing wrong with being stupid, I just wish you weren’t able to vote.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:36 am 161. ETAB:

Ahh, so now, moho is switching his apology for Islamic terrorism from numerology to victimology.

What’s important to Moho is no longer that MORE people die in car accidents than by Islamic terrorists. The emptiness of such an argument has been pointed out to him.

No, now his reason for those same deadly Islamic attacks is that they were all purely defensive. Poor dears. But why was our military there in the first place, attacking those jihadists? Well?
Does blowing up an Afghan school of children or an Iraqi wedding party or a Pakistan market – mean that these actions are reactions to..what..the US military?

I’d also suggest that moho read up on the history of Al Qaeda (a good outline is Wright’s The Looming Tower) and check out its internal-to-Islamic-politics and ideology causality.

Of course, the whole history of Islamic militancy over the centuries, along with the texts of the Qu’ran and hadiths and the policy of abrogation, are illuminating as well. But, just to focus on Al Qaeda and its strictly internal causality is illuminating.

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:05 am 162. Moho:

I wish I were in person ETAB so that I could say the following words slowly. Usually that doesn’t help people as dumb as you, but at least it would make me feel better:

No, now his reason for those same deadly Islamic attacks is that they were all purely defensive.

This is called strawman. I didn’t write that anywhere. Usually people do this out of a dishonest scramble to fight a more intellectually capable opponent. But in your case, I think you probably didn’t get that far. It was simply your illiteracy getting the better of you. If you want to lump in every act of violence that so-called Jihadists do in order to complain that we ought to have more and longer wars, then it certainly seems like a good idea to lump in those attacks directed at our troops in Islamic countries. That is if inflating the score is more important than actually addressing the problem, by all means look for your keys where there’s more light, not where you dropped them.

A reasonable person might leave out that group from the number, considering that they would not be in a position to attack us in those numbers if we weren’t in their country [head shaking]. As such the number is simple inflation and of use to no one. If you really want to get to the bottom of what is driving Islamic acts of violence, then the last place you should begin is where we’re in a pitched battle with an Islamic people. LOL. That’s like doing an epidemiological study of flu transmission only amongst people who already have the flu.

Nov 12, 2009 - 10:36 am 163. ETAB:

oh, moho, Islamic terrorists are real; they are not ’so-called Jihadists’.

No, I’m not relating Islamic terrorist actions to ‘we ought to have more and longer wars’. I’m relating Islamic terrorist actions to the internal causes of such violence, which rest within Islamic society.

I’m asking why Islamists blow up schools for young girls, weddings, mosques, market places in their own countries. Why are there suicide bombers in Indonesia, Thailand, Pakistan, India? Eight in Pakistan in the month of October alone. And no, we aren’t in any ‘pitched battle’ with them here.

You maintain that Islam an ideology, is free of malicious intent, and is merely and only reactive. But this is not true, and the empirical facts of Islamic terrorism is a reality. I suggest you read up on the history of Al Qaeda.

You might also want to check out the numerous Islamic blogs and mosques that preach violence.
Oh, and there’s the Qu’ran and the hadiths that preach violence.

Islamic terrorism is not a hapless reaction to The West. It’s a reality that emerged, in its modern (not 7th c) form in the 19th c, long before any US actions, and within a tribal political system that was enriching the elite tribe and impoverishing the multitude.

Got that? It’s an internal-to-Islam cause, that has been externalized by such as Saudi Arabia, rather than reform the Islamic political system. It has embedded itself as expressing the ideology of theQu’ran and hadiths, defeating attempts by moderate Muslims to reform and modernize Islam. The cause of Islamic terrorism??? It’s internal to the Islamic world, in its repressive tribal politics.

Go – learn something about your religion and its political ideology.

Nov 12, 2009 - 11:03 am 164. JR Dogman:

“You’ll pay just about anything for the masculine pride you feel as our military destroys things on television. Disgusting ignoramuses.”

Moho, why do you do this? Why are constantly telling other people what *they* will do and why? What they *feel*? How I feel about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, this isn’t a black-and-white matter for me: I have mixed feelings, and frankly I often go back and forth in thinking one or the other or both of these actions is/are more or less worth it/not worth it, a good idea or a bad idea, etc. And I would guess that a lot of people feel like me — but you respond to everyone who disagrees with your pronouncements in the exact same way: they’re idiots, disgusting ignoramuses, fools, uneducated; they love violence for its own sake, and, of course, always, they are bigots.

It’s very easy to sling insults and pigeonhole people, to dismiss them with a snarky line or two; it’s much more complicated, and difficult, to hear them out, to listen to them, and to engage honestly in a straightforward give-and-take. But you, who put yourself forth as this policy genius we should all defer to, take the simple route again and again. I’ll tell you, man, I haven’t called you a single name, I haven’t suggested you’re stupid, but I can tell you this: in my experience, the smartest, most educated people don’t address others in the manner that you do. Quite the opposite, they’re curious about what others think, and they don’t feel the need to spout off about what an idiot everyone is, or what a bigot, so therefore who cares what they say, why bother, etc. But you know who does do that kind of stuff? Precocious teenagers and college students, smart kids who haven’t yet realized that there are plenty of other smart people out there and that they don’t know everything. Usually these people grow up, but when they don’t, when they turn 30 or 35, 40 years old, and they’re still calling every person they disagree with a fool, a bigot, or whatever, they’re not viewed as precocious anymore; no one says, “Well, he’s just young and really smart, and that can be a combustible mix for a while — but he’ll grow up.” No — what they say is that this is an angry person, a person who *didn’t* fully grow up, maybe because he failed somehow at something he wanted to do, but instead of picking himself up and starting again he blamed someone else and got stuck doing something he hated. If the person is really, outrageously nasty and rude and intolerant, sometimes another word is used by people to describe him: disturbed.

Nov 12, 2009 - 2:09 pm 165. ETAB:

JR Dogman – I think that moho doesn’t want to discuss or analyze the causes of Islamic terrorism around the world.

He is an ‘apologist’ for Islam, rejecting any actions of violence as due to Islamic agendas. Instead, he tries to Blame the USA for their violence, ignoring that this violence occurs in areas outside of US contacts. He seems to know nothing of the history of Al Qaeda and its fundamentalist agenda (originally in Egypt).

He also seems not to know of key political and economic problems in the Middle East, with the repression of the post WWII massive increase and urbanization of their population. Rather than enabling a civic political structure of democracy empowering a middle class, the ME retained their hierarchical tribal authorities, leaving the mass of the population without economic and political power. Moho doesn’t understand this as a key cause of Islamic fascism.

So, he’s trapped himself because he knows nothing of the history of Islamic fascism, the political/economic stasis of the Muslim state, and doesn’t understand or accept the need for reform of the Islamic ideology. He doesn’t seem to know that Islam is less a religious ideology and primarily a political, social and economic lifestyle – suited to a 7th c miitant tribalism.

That leaves him with nowhere to go, since he’s not willing to learn…but reject, reject and insult.

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:22 pm 166. Rashputin:

“No — what they say is that this is an angry person, a person who *didn’t* fully grow up, maybe because he failed somehow at something he wanted to do, but instead of picking himself up and starting again he blamed someone else and got stuck doing something he hated. If the person is really, utrageously nasty and rude and intolerant, sometimes another word is used by people to describe him: disturbed.”

That same description could be applied to Hasan right up until he decided to become an active participant in jihad murders.

It’s caused by Islamic teachings which keep the individual in a constant state of anger and on the verge of an outburst even when there is no mistreatment of any kind for them to focus on in their personal life. Everything that normally happens to anyone is automatically seen as a manifestation of some dark plot against them. It’s deliberately induced and focused paranoia. This way, the individual is primed and ready to explode whenever stress from any source becomes too much for them, and it also insures that they’ll explode in a way the jihadist leaders want them to. It’s an old, old, way of creating semi-insanity within the individual since it is essentially always telling them they can’t do anything right, they never will be able to do anything right, and the only escape from that situation is to attack and kill whoever the leaders focus the frustration on.

Whenever the technique is used, it encompasses a major internal contradiction or two, and Islam is just chock full of them. One of the most basic, is that Christians are theologically wrong because Christ could not have died for their sins since substitutionary atonement is impossible, yet they assure the young that the first drop of blood shed by a Muslim who dies in jihad spares his seventy closest relatives from judgment and allows them go directly to paradise upon their deaths. So, Islam grants substitutionary sacrifice to those dying in jihad even though they declare the concept of substitutionary sacrifice to be something only a pagan would believe. It’s just one of the many subtle admissions within Islam that give away its roots as a pagan moon good cult.

The stress that is deliberately created within the Muslim individual has to be relieved one way or another, which is why I say make them pay the dimi tax and so forth the same way Christians are forced to in Islamic societies. In that situation they’d be able to focus on real oppression and would for the most part react to a real situation by leaving rather than staying here being made ever more paranoid and disturbed by constant manipulation over fabricated injustices and slights.

Regards

Nov 12, 2009 - 3:31 pm 167. JR Dogman:

ETAB,

I agree with your assessment of Moho, to a point. That is, I cannot believe he is ignorant of the things you say he is. What I do think he is doing is arguing in bad faith: muddying the waters intentionally, throwing out a barrage of red herrings (e.g., statistics about the number of automotive deaths per year in the U.S., as compared to the deaths per year by Islamist murder) to make the logical seem illogical. Calling people bigots, so suddenly that is what the conversation is about: whether or not one is bigoted to remark upon what is as plain as the nose on one’s face. (I always think of that Groucho Marx joke, “Who are you going to believe, me or your own lying eyes?!”)

Of course, I don’t know Moho, so I can only guess at his motives. I can guarantee you this, however: no one who addresses others with such imperiousness, so dismissively and rudely, is sure of himself and of what he is saying. People who conduct themselves that way don’t want to make an honest case; they want the conversation shut down, and, if they cannot do that, they will settle for infuriating those they disagree with. Sometimes such tactics even “work” — i.e., they distract for a moment, they make people angry. Moho isn’t dumb, and he’s quick and good with words. For what it’s worth, in the battle he is fighting and the way he has chosen to fight it, he is a more than capable soldier.

And…

Rashputin,

Re “The stress that is deliberately created within the Muslim individual has to be relieved one way or another” — that I agree with, more or less. As for the idea of slapping Muslims with a reverse-dhimmi tax, though, I can’t go with you there. (I assume you’re being facetious, anyhow, on that point.)

Regards, right back at ya…

Nov 12, 2009 - 4:54 pm 168. kochevnik:

114@Donna V.:
>kochevnik is an ignorant fool….Sorry, but 2 + 2 does not equal 5, no matter how loudly you scream that it does.

Well Donna at least 14,000 catholic gangbangers have murdered right here in California since 911. Since you supposedly understand math, do you understand the facts prove you have no point?

I love how repubs take a generic, factual post and go ad-hominem. It proves they prefer sticking their chickenhawk heads in the sand. Emotional reactions to pure numbers are proof of ignorance and delusion.

Nov 12, 2009 - 5:44 pm 169. Moho:

I can guarantee you this, however: no one who addresses others with such imperiousness, so dismissively and rudely, is sure of himself and of what he is saying. People who conduct themselves that way don’t want to make an honest case;

That’s about as probable as the rest of your case. You’re more than welcome to pursue the origins of the evidence I provide here. I give you links. If you can argue against it, feel free. If you have a feeling its wrong, but can’t prove it, then you’ve lost. Sorry, that’s the way this thinking thing goes. There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing, where you people go wrong is that you can’t prove that any of your points have merit. I think its perfectly fine to call the stupid out for being stupid. You have an alternative. Don’t come on this blog anymore if my posts are going to make you cry.

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:09 pm 170. Moho:

How I feel about the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, this isn’t a black-and-white matter for me: I have mixed feelings, and frankly I often go back and forth in thinking one or the other or both of these actions is/are more or less worth it/not worth it, a good idea or a bad idea, etc. And I would guess that a lot of people feel like me — but you respond to everyone who disagrees with your pronouncements in the exact same way:

This is by far the most disgusting opinion I’ve seen here. Has it ever occurred to you to do some research and make a stand, you freakin coward? We are talking about life and death here? This isn’t the difference between a McFlurry and a Milkshake, you dumb^^^

Nov 12, 2009 - 7:11 pm 171. JR Dogman:

“There’s nothing wrong with disagreeing, where you people go wrong is that you can’t prove that any of your points have merit.”

That’s just it, Moho: I *do* feel like I can prove my case, but I know that you feel like you can prove your case. Further, I know that I can’t prove my case to you, and that you can’t prove your case to me. There is *nothing* either of us could possibly say to the other that would make us change his opinion. Assuming each of us is arguing in good faith (and again, I do not think you are, but assuming such nonetheless), it is pretty clear that each of us has looked at a great many facts, and has assembled a picture from those facts that we are satisfied with.

When two people holding disparate views on a certain subject meet, and each feels he has educated himself very well on the subject, it is highly unlikely that one will convince the other to give up the view he has come, again, via inquiry and research, to hold with great certainty and passion.

That is the difference between us, or rather one of the differences: for the sake of argument, I will grant that I was in error, you are arguing your views in good faith, you are not trying to muddy the waters. I am able to listen to you, that is, to read what you say, and not feel any need to insult you. In fact, it never even occurs to me to do so. Furthermore, I can tell by reading what you say that you (a) are not an idiot but in fact intelligent; (b) can construct logical arguments using fluid, clever prose; and that (c) even if I did feel like answering you in kind, it wouldn’t get me anywhere. I want to read others’ opinions, even if I think they are wrong, and I enjoy going back and forth, even if I am sure I won’t be able to convince them of the rightness of my views.

As for your commenting, “This is by far the most disgusting opinion I’ve seen here. Has it ever occurred to you to do some research and make a stand, you freakin coward? We are talking about life and death here? This isn’t the difference between a McFlurry and a Milkshake, you dumb^^^”, here I must say: please. You think you’re the only one who sees the death and destruction unleashed by war and doesn’t recognize it for what it is? The point is, one may do plenty of research and still decide to endorse a war, and, afterwards, feel torn about what one has endorsed. And this does not make one callous or blithe concerning the matter at hand. Uncertainty and cruel indifference per se have nothing to do with one another.

You speak as if you’re the only one here concerned for our country’s future, and — needless to say — as if anyone who disagrees with you cannot be so concerned. What a convenience for you! What a great means to undermine others’ views. It’s of a piece with your calling them stupid and uneducated: if someone is stupid and uneducated, who needs to hear what they have to say? It’s just going to be uninformed crap anyhow. And if they are part of the group of “bigots” who are “ruining” the country every time they vote as you say, they have even less credibility: bigots are illogical by defnion. And these ruiners, well, clearly they hate the country — or they might as well hate it, given their actions and what they say. So everything they say is garbage, in advance.

In fact, Moho, most people here are greatly concerned about the country — maybe even as concerned as you are. That’s why they come here and post, to discuss things and vent and try to make sense of what they are seeing.

You seem to think your incredible concern for our country gives you unparalleled gravitas — some great power that may, if we will all simply listen to you, somehow save our national bacon. Well, it doesn’t. You don’t have that gravitas or power, because no one does. If the country is going to go down the toilet, if we are to go broke and, as you have remarked, will all have to learn to read the street signs in Chinese, then so it will be. God knows, it’s not unthinkable. Countries and empires have come and gone throughout human history. But you, me, the other people here — it won’t hinge on us. As voters we can maybe be part of a wave that will do something. But here, just talking — no way. Regardless of the high opinion you hold of yourself, you are a poster like any of the other posters here. You are not Winston Churchill or FDR, or, for that matter, Stalin. Thus your “concern”, which you use to justify your rudeness toward all who disagree with what you say, is no real justification at all. The plain truth is, you simply cannot bear to stand as you are, as just a man with his opinion, exchanging with other people with their own opinions.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:29 pm 172. JR Dogman:

Moho,

Incidentally, there’s another poster on this site, Mr. Independent, who I think largely agrees with your views. But he exchanges with other posters with respect — always. You can tell, it’s a standard he holds himself to, because even when people take a snarky tone with him, or say something patently offensive regarding something he’s written, he never responds with anything but politeness.

He brings a lot to this website.

Nov 12, 2009 - 8:41 pm 173. Moho:

it is pretty clear that each of us has looked at a great many facts, and has assembled a picture from those facts that we are satisfied with.

You just argued the opposite of this:

I have mixed feelings, and frankly I often go back and forth in thinking one or the other or both of these actions is/are more or less worth it/not worth it, a good idea or a bad idea, etc.

I don’t need your approval of my “good” faith. These issues mean more to me than you or any of these other dilettante bed-wetting cul-de-sac-bound illiterate cry-babies will ever know for reasons you can’t begin to imagine. Given your set of mutually exclusive opinions, I’d say its you arguing in bad faith, because you don’t actually have any opinions.

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:13 pm 174. Dave Surls:

“Dave Surls,Your paranoid demented ravings about Obama are a hat-trick:
Treasonous, bigoted, vile!”

It’s not treasonous to call for the impeachment of your idiot, little boy president.

Nov 12, 2009 - 9:21 pm 175. JR Dogman:

“These issues mean more to me than you or any of these other dilettante bed-wetting cul-de-sac-bound illiterate cry-babies will ever know for reasons you can’t begin to imagine.”

Well, I’m honestly sorry that’s the case, Moho — really, I mean that.

But will you tell us more? Why do these issues mean more to you? Seriously — telling us will help broaden our perspectives to help see yours, much more than any of your repeated insults ever will.

You are an angry person, and perhaps with very good reason. And I guess nothing anyone here can say will change what affected you so terribly. But I really do think most people want to be decent (yes, that includes Muslims), and if you reveal something of a serious nature to them, they will treat you with respect — and it seems a given that they will understand you better afterward.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:21 am

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