Pajamas Media

594 Comments

1. Jim62sch:

Oh, please. The level of talk about Obama is absolutely nothing to the garbage that has been spewing 24/7 for the last 8 years about Chimpy McHitlerBurton and Darth Cheney.

Dec 4, 2008 - 6:40 pm 2. Paul:

If it would be so simple to validate Obama’s status as a natural born US citizen, why are he and his cohorts so adamantly refusing to do so? It should not be a complicated thing to do. It is their complicity in refusing to release the alleged original document that alone is fueling the controversy. That considered, it should be no great leap to understand why there is such a large contingent of people who want verifiable proof, EXPECIALLY in the wake of the Constitutional requirement. Who is gaining anything positive from a needless, ongoing, time and money-consuming controversy? My guess is (NO!! The adage is) “sew the wind, and you WILL reap the whirlwind”. My guess is, whoever “YOU” is, it won’t be pretty. All you Obama addicts… I hope you’re all ready for it.

Dec 4, 2008 - 6:42 pm 3. thegr8_1:

A million dollars spent on lawyers, including one from CAIR to fight these lawsuits. These people like Keyes and Berg just want the constitution followed and events have placed doubt in a lot of peoples minds. No terrorist attack in the US in 87 months I hope Obama can match that. What’s this on Newsmax that Obama wants to give a major speech in a Muslim country most likely Cairo after being elected?

Dec 4, 2008 - 6:51 pm 4. Alessandro Machi:

Although I tend to think Barack is a U.S. Citizen, it does appear that more could have been done to allay birth certificate questions than what has been done. Lets not forgot this was the year of ACORN backed caucus cheating and MSNBC and Huffington Post (A Soros project) Hillary Clinton bashing.

Soros is not a legitimate person to quote on this issue, Soros turned MoveON.org against Hillary Clinton, who just so happened to be the wife of the president for which MoveON was originally started as a way to protect democrats from future witch hunts.

To then use MoveON.org against Hillary Clinton was the height of sociopathic behavior, Soros is not a legitimate source to refer to. He’s just rich. You should backwards engineer your article. What would make those who are uncertain, convinced?

Rather than come up with snarky responses, come up with a solution rather than ridicule who have doubts.

http://www.DailyPUMA.com

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:11 pm 5. bob:

The writer of this article doesn’t understand the Donofrio case. It doesn’t matter where Obama was born, in the Donofrio case. The problem is Obama was born an English citizen on his father’s side, his father being a Kenyan who was an English citizen. Donofrio asserts a ‘natural born citizen’ is one born on US soil to two citizen parents. The writer of this article should bet rid of his computer which has done him no good service.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:15 pm 6. SeanLA:

“why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.?”
Easy, its better to be a US citizen then a Kenyan.

Maybe you can ask aunt Zeituni if her brother is capable of such a thing? Is she? If the sister doesn’t have a problem with it why would her brother?

will you deny that the president has an illegal aunt living in the US? She has deportation orders until he `pardons’ her.

everybody has to fill out an I9 form and prove their citizenship, why should Obama be any different? Why is his `birth certificate’ `under lock and key’ as you say? Is yours?

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:16 pm 7. Daedalus:

I agree with Rick Moran’s article, but must still ask one question – Why is Obama and his staff so reluctant to authorize the showing of the original birth certificate? It is Obama and not the Obama Derangement Syndrome (ODS) idiots who are keeping this story alive. If the story could be killed by the simple showing of the birth certificate, why not do it? That is what amazes me, forget those with ODS – why is Obama so reluctant to show the original document? There is a lot of money being spent on this and many hours come from very high priced lawyers, and now even our Supreme Court must spend time on this subject – WHY? The explanations in Rick Moran’s article make sense to me, so why is Obama fighting this? Unfortunately only Obama has the answer to that question, and until he decides to come forth and explain himself, or is required by a court order to show the original birth certificate, the story will continue to grow and walk on legs supplied by Obama.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:27 pm 8. Pat J:

What’s this on Newsmax that Obama wants to give a major speech in a Muslim country most likely Cairo after being elected?
————-
Umm. Cairo is a city in Egypt or a town in Illinois. Dumbass.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:42 pm 9. Pat J:

Donofrio asserts a ‘natural born citizen’ is one born on US soil to two citizen parents.
———-
Wait a sec. My dad was born here. My mom was born in England. She had dual citizenship. I was born in San Antonio. Does that mean I can’t be president? What about this scenario. A Mexican national bears a child in a hospital in say, San Antonio. Does that mean he can’t be president? Or say you were born in the Panama neutral zone. Like, I don’t know. John McCain? Does that mean John McCain could not have become president? The bottom line is this lawsuit is a waste of the Supreme Court’s time. Just like the controversy that Obama was not born in the United States is waste of time. He’s American. Get over it.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:53 pm 10. fred:

Even though I did not vote for Obama I am prepared to accept him. I will only criticize him on matters of policy and action that I disagree with and I will not do the Bushitler and Chimpy stuff that the Bush haters pulled for eight years.

But based on all the stories I’ve read about the matter of his birth and subsequent citizenship in Indonesia years later, I do in fact want this matter cleared up. Look, all he and his lawyers have to do is get the birth certificate from the governor of Hawai’i, show it to the judge and plaintiffs, and then be done with it if he has nothing to hide. End of story.

But if he was in fact born in Kenya, then he does not meet the Constitutional requirement for the office he now will be holding. Also, if he never got naturalized as a U.S. citizen when he returned from Indonesia, then he isn’t even a U.S. citizen!

Mr. Moran, this is not a matter of partisanship run amok. For God’s sake, a lawyer from his own party initiated this whole search!

So far, it would seem his respect for the Constitution is less than what one would expect from a Commander in Chief. What about Sen. Clinton’s appointment and the Constitution’s Emoluments’ Clause?

This isn’t being petty and vindictive. There are times when certain standards deserve the respect they command and you have to come clean before them.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:53 pm 11. cedarford:

Paul & Others – It is their complicity in refusing to release the alleged original document that alone is fueling the controversy.

No, that is like saying that Jackie Kennedy refusing to testify in deranged Grassy Knoller lawsuits and become part of their PR hype made her “complicit”. The general strategy most use when confronted by Truthers is to refuse to cooperate with then or argue with them. The Navy responded with a general “f*ck-off!” when asked to cooperate with lawsuits demanding Navy radar records and testimony of hundreds of sailors regarding the “secret missile that shot down TWA Flight 800″.

Paul&others - That considered, it should be no great leap to understand why there is such a large contingent of people who want verifiable proof, EXPECIALLY in the wake of the Constitutional requirement.

There isn’t a “large number”. You have a miniscually small fraction of the US population filing lawsuits and a small pack of nutballs that believe in that or the Hillary Clinton Assassination of Vince Foster Conspiracy. Or the Jews being behind 9/11, with Mossad placing charges in the WTC to ensure the 2 buildings fell when their secret co-conspirators in AQ flew planes into them.

Paul&others – Who is gaining anything positive from a needless, ongoing, time and money-consuming controversy?

Obama and the Democrats, even moderate Republicans.
All who are taking great pleasure in watching the Right Wing damage their already tattered public image by behaving like a pack of hysterical, deranged assholes.

The Gr8_1 – A million dollars spent on lawyers, including one from CAIR to fight these lawsuits. These people like Keyes and Berg just want the constitution follow..

When you see you opponents acting as fools, digging a deep hole for themselves, hand them all the shovels they want. In this case, the million bucks (Obama backers still have hundreds of millions in loose change) is the equivalent of buying the shovels for the fools.
And having the psychopathic Alan Keyes join the Secret Kenyan Birth Conspiracy of Truthers is just icing on the cake.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:56 pm 12. Alessandro Machi:

I was under the impression that anyone born on US soil is a US citizen, irrespective of where the child’s parents are born, yes, no?

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:59 pm 13. Dave:

FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.

THEREFORE; Barack Hussein Obama was born a citizen of these United States.

FACT: A parent cannot renounce the citizenship of a child.

FACT: No person can renounce citizenship unless that person has achieved the age of majority at the time of renouncement.

FACT: There is no evidence that, having achieved the age of majority, Barack Hussein Obama renounced his (natural-born) US citizenship.

THEREFORE: Barack Hussein Obama remains eligible to be POTUS.

What is the fuss? Read Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals. Also read Lenin. Pay special attention to “useful idiots”. Look in the mirror. One will be staring back at you if you
believe all this non-citizen garbage.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:00 pm 14. bob:

I should have said, it doesn’t matter if Obama was born in Hawaii, in the Donofrio case. His father was an English citizen. If your mother is a citizen, and your father is a citizen, and you are born on US soil, you are a natural born citizen, in Donofrio’s understanding of the Constitutional requirement. I think he is right.

If Obama was born outside the US, he is out in any case.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:03 pm 15. robotech master:

Yeah another idiot writing about things his hasn’t the first clue that he talking about. This author is not only blatantly lying but is purposely creating fake strawman arguments that he can debunk in an effort to make his points look valid and discredit his opponents by placing fake arguments in their mouths.

I’m not sure where to start with this mess but here goes.

First Factcheck….which of course can be found here….since the author didn’t bother linking to it.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

“Factcheck.org has validated the certificate” Is total BS if you bother to review factcheck… and do some fact checking you will find NO FACTS. Its an op-ed piece with zero scientific information on it. The fact check piece can be summed up simply like this… See we have a picture of it, see it, see it and its legit why? BECAUSE WE SAY SO… Where on the other hand the ppl claiming fake/issues with it have scientific PROOF their are issues and make detailed accounts of this issues… and even better THEY ARE LEGAL EXPERTS IN THE FIELD unlike factcheck which had no experts and no facts….

This statement “Factcheck.org has validated the certificate” is a complete and blatant lie on the part of the author.

Next is the wonderful newspaper strawman. Its nice you cover info on one side but completely refuse to list anything on the other side… but that is for later.

The strawman is nice “If you believe the notice is a fake, why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.? Is it reasonable or even possible to believe that a conspiracy would go back that far? Who could have possibly known 47 years ago that Obama would be running for president and that it was necessary to print a blurb in a local paper that he was born in Hawaii rather than some other country in order to prove that he was a natural born citizen? And if this is, in fact, an actual report of Obama’s birth in Hawaii — as it surely must be — doesn’t that put to rest the entire matter of Obama’s eligibility to serve as President of the United States?”

Its well written to sound factual… however for those of us that can read above a 5th grade level easy to spot. Lets break it down.

“If you believe the notice is a fake, why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.?”

Why indeed… why do current illegal aliens seek to “planet” proof they were born in the US…? Many many ppl seek to planet proof they were born in the US for a vast number of reasons… to say otherwise is retardation at its best.

“Is it reasonable or even possible to believe that a conspiracy would go back that far?Who could have possibly known 47 years ago that Obama would be running for president and that it was necessary to print a blurb in a local paper that he was born in Hawaii rather than some other country in order to prove that he was a natural born citizen?”

Note the attempt to deflect by using a word such as conspiracy… Note also how it trying to imply some massive path setup… and tries in turn instead of providing proof of anything tries to make the actions so absurd that they are not believable. So in argument, you have instead of a pick pocket that happens to get lucky and reach his hand into some ladies purse and steal jewelry worth 3 million dollars… its now years of plotting and government black helo’s flying and such…. the whole government was out to steal this piece of jewelry to power their weather machine. The author tries to make some big story instead of a person who happen to see a nice target and steal something and happen to get lucky and get 3 mil.

The simple fact is obama’s mom could have wanted to make sure that “extra” proof. Just in case their should ever become an issue(she couldn’t have known he was going to run for pres… however should he wanted to say goto college or any of a host of basic things (much the same as current illegals do) they may challenge her on the issue. No city is going to run an in depth background check for someone going to college and such… if challenge she would only need to produce this newspaper clipping as “proof”… which any idiot will gladly take at face value.

“And if this is, in fact, an actual report of Obama’s birth in Hawaii — as it surely must be — doesn’t that put to rest the entire matter of Obama’s eligibility to serve as President of the United States?”

Next like factcheck the other states an opinion as fact… Most newspaper didn’t get info from hospitals on birth… this in many areas was done by the parents. The author tries to state “as it surely must be” as if because some newspaper writes something IT IS FACT…

He likes his little talking points because they are easy to twist… he also doesn’t talk about the other side… like how obamas family says he was born in kenya… and they were all their to see… or how kenya’s on officals say he was born there… or how obama mom was going to full time college 3 weeks later in Seattle… Theirs alot more “proof” saying obama was born in kenya if we are to use things like this news article as proof.

Next we have wonderful Hawaii officials… none of which are experts in any form… the only thing that we know as fact is that their is some kind of birth record in a vault in Hawaii… this is not proof of obama being a US citizen. Next is the fact that none of the ppl who supposely viewed obama birth cert are any form of legal expert and even on top of that the health dictator may have never seen a birth cert(other then her own and that was still likely only in short form) until that day looking up obama’s…

Next to the lawsuits… while many of the ppl filing the lawsuits are on the crazy side(including some in the “wtf insane crazy side”). However obama has not only seen content to not prove hes a US citizen he is actively fighting these lawsuits instead of showing proof and getting it over with.

Also the court are acting really really disgraceful on this issue… the BERG case being wonderful. The berg case first judge said that berg as a US citizen doesn’t have “standing” to ask for proof that obama is a citizen and meets the requirements to be a US pres. To translate this in to non-legal speak it simply goes like this. COURT: Are you ****ing insane you stupid peasant how dare you challenge “us” the government to ensure that we are in fact obeying the law and the Constitution.

The judge who made that ruling should be put in prison….

This is not some mayor election… john mccain spent months proving his right to run and he actively helped in the process instead of obama who is actively blocking the process…

Something this important shouldn’t just be brushed aside… The fact that this issue should not only be minor but should take less then 2 weeks(if quick could only take 3 days) to confirm if hes a citizen or not. All they need to do is take his birth cert and match it to the hospital records… not hard not complex problem done and over with…but NO… obama has to block every attempt to do research on it and fight it in court… one has to wonder why obama is spending MILLIONS on a minor issue that he can put to rest in DAYS…

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:03 pm 16. goy:

Rick, you’ve utterly missed the nature of this controversy, which has been created almost solely by Obama’s refusal to simply produce the original vault copy of his COLB. The only “official” document produced so far is a reissue which has been deemed invalid by some, for plausible reasons.

The Supreme Court will review this issue tomorrow. Are you claiming that the SCOTUS is stricken with “ODS” too?

In 1961 it was perfectly legal for U.S. citizens to register a live birth in HI which occurred in another country. The clipping from the Advertiser is nothing more than a list generated, from the COLBs as they were recorded at the Vital Statistics Office in HI – whether directly (in person) or as reported by HI hospitals. So the notion that it was “planted” is a silly straw man. Ann Dunham simply wanted her son’s birth to be recorded in the U.S. That wouldn’t make him a natural born citizen, however.

The most likely scenario here, given Obama’s dogged refusal to produce the original vault copy of his COLB – which is something McCain did immediately when asked due to somewhat similar circumstances – is that it lists the location of his birth as Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. No conspiracy (or “ODS”) is necessary for this to be true. Given what has transpired so far, it is in fact the most likely case.

Having said all that, please go review the origin of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Your crass moral equivalence here, using an issue deemed valid by no less that the SCOTUS, borders on the disgusting.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:14 pm 17. James:

The birth announcement above means nothing. Those are paid announcements by the family of the child. His grandparents could have done this. There are many reasons to doubt his citizenship. I just want the proof is all. If everyone else had to do it, so does he. No exceptions. No I do not were a tin foil hat. Go here and watch this video http://www.obamaforgery.com

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:17 pm 18. misanthropicus:

Epurr si muove… and no matter how you name a fraud, a fraud is still a fraud.

Topic: Barry Soetero claims that something strange happened in his way to the Senate, and a dog came and ate his birth certificate – and Rick Moran is ok with this.

Rick, no matter how you nuance and ratiocinate things, there is a stinker in this Soetero COLB story – and I and countless other are perfectly right wondering why this situation is not cleared by Soetero, and why, that one who is so good at balancing the political price of his actions prefers to dodge an issue which could be solved VERY, VERY EASY, yet which will get costlier and costlier politically if not addressed (up to a major crisis).
Why do you find an absurdity in so many people’s requests from Soetero to instruct the Hawaii authorities to make the document in cause available for examination, and then adios! Since this doesn’t happen – isn’t it legitimate to ask why?
Further, you comparison of this situation with the Clinton bashing industry doesn’t work – remember, Isikoff & Time Magazine sat on the Lewinsky story for weeks before Matt Drudge hit.
And, more important, if it weren’t for Drudge, the Levinsky story (and the ensuing revelations about the squalor of Shmucko’s presidency) wouldn’t have been made public by Time. Never-ever. Never-ever. Don’t you agree with that?

As far as little Barry’s story, we’ll see – ’till then, an interestingt piece which shows that Soetero’s associates were for long obsessing about the “hypothetical” situation of a “non-natural born” US presidential candidate. Gosh – I wonder why!

Harvested from today’s WorldNetDaily (and don’t dismiss that):

“An associate lawyer in a Chicago-based firm whose partner served on a finance committee for then-Sen. Barack Obama has advocated for the elimination of the U.S. Constitution’s requirement that a president be a “natural-born” citizen, calling the requirement “stupid” and asserting it discriminates, is outdated and undemocratic.
The paper was written in 2006 by Sarah Herlihy, just two years after Obama had won a landslide election in Illinois to the U.S. Senate. Herlihy is listed as an associate at the Chicago firm of Kirkland & Ellis. A partner in the same firm, Bruce I. Ettelson, cites his membership on the finance committees for both Obama and Sen. Richard Durbin on the corporate website.

The [Obama's legal status] issue is the subject of nearly two dozen court cases in recent weeks, including at least two that have gone to the U.S. Supreme Court.
There have been accusations that Obama was born in Kenya, not Hawaii as his campaign has stated. His paternal grandmother has stated she was in attendance at his birth in Mombasa. While Hawaii officials say they have seen his birth certificate, they have declined to release information from it.

Join more than 158,000 others in signing WND’s online petition calling for release of Barack Obama’s birth certificate and verifying beyond any shadow of a doubt his constitutional eligibility for office. [NB: Misanthropicus did.]

The Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii that the Obama campaign posted on the Internet isn’t considered by critics to resolve the issue, since during the 1960s when Obama was born, the new state issued the document to infants not necessarily born in Hawaii.

There also remain unanswered questions about his youth, when he lived and attended school in Indonesia and later when he traveled to Pakistan. The questions include whether he gave up a U.S. citizenship to attend school or traveled on another nation’s passport to Pakistan at a time when U.S. passports were unwelcome there.

Answers to those issues could determine whether Obama meets the Constitution’s demand for a “natural-born” citizen.

Herlihy’s published paper reveals that the REQUIREMENT LIKELY WAS CONSIDERED IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT BY ORGANIZATIONS LINKED TO OBAMA IN THE MONTHS BEFORE HE ANNOUNCED IN 2007 HIS CANDIDACY FOR THE PRESIDENCY [Misanthropicus CAPS].

“The natural born citizen requirement in Article II of the United States Constitution has been called the ’stupidest provision’ in the Constitution, “undecidedly un-American,” “blatantly discriminatory,” and the “Constitution’s worst provision,” Herlihy begins in her introduction to the paper titled, “Amending the Natural Born Citizen Requirement: Globalization as the Impetus and the Obstacle.”

She concludes that the “emotional” reasons to oppose changing the Constitution will prevail over the “rational” reasons demanding a change.

“The current American perceptions about the effects of globalization and the misunderstanding about what globalization actually is will result in Americans deciding that naturalized citizens should not be president because this would, in effect, be promoting globalization, Herlihy wrote.

“Although this argument is admittedly circular, because globalization is the thing that makes the need to abolish the requirement more and more persuasive, Americans’ subsequent perceptions about globalization are the very things that will prevent Americans from embracing the idea of eliminating the natural born requirement.

“Logical Americans are looking for a reason to ignore the rational reasons promoted by globalization so that they may vote based on their own emotions and instincts,” she wrote. [...]

She blamed support for the constitutional provision on “fear, racism, religious intolerance, or blind faith in the decisions of the Founding Fathers.”

WND called Herlihy’s number listed on the law firm website, and a woman answered with, “Sarah Herlihy.” But when WND identified itself as a news agency, the woman said she didn’t think “Sarah Herlihy” was in, but would take a message. There was no return call.

In the body of her argument, Herlihy said the constitutional provision simply is outdated.

“Considering that the Founding Fathers presumably included the natural born citizen clause in the Constitution partly out of fear of foreign subversion, the current stability of the American government and the intense media scrutiny of presidential candidates virtually eliminates the possibility of a ‘foreigner’ coming to America, becoming a naturalized citizen, generating enough public support to become president, and somehow using the presidency to directly benefit his homeland,” she wrote.

“The natural born citizen clause of the United States Constitution should be repealed for numerous reasons. Limiting presidential eligibility to natural born citizens discriminates against naturalized citizens, is outdated and undemocratic, and incorrectly assumes that birthplace is a proxy for loyalty,” she wrote.

Many of the reasons for keeping the limit, she wrote, “are based primarily on emotion.”

A web blogger suggested, “So it sure looks like Obama’s people have looked into the matter of ‘natural born’ as far back as early 2006. What is even more disturbing is that it would appear that they are following the thought of: ‘If the facts do not support the theory, Destroy the facts!”

The article by Herlihy is available online under law review articles from Kent University.

We’ll see – but my impression is that time is not on Soetero’s side.

Like your RightWing Nuthouse site – by the way, can you tell me who is the artist you use on your frontispice? I don’t plan to parallel you, but I might use it in a project in a different media.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:18 pm 19. robotech master:

O dave your complete lack of knowledge is fun…

FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.(correct)

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.(wrong big wrong)

My mom was born in Nigeria… to 2 US citizens who were married(and still are) and was born on an army base… she can’t run for US pres… Also to note that she
1. has a Nigeria birth cert.
2. Has a US birth cert
3. Her short hand birth cert is no different then any US citizen’s(ie just like obamas).

Even on her US birth cert long hand unless you really look its hard to tell she was born in another country.

FACT: A parent cannot renounce the citizenship of a child.(debatable depends on the laws at the time and the “act” of renouncing)

FACT: No person can renounce citizenship unless that person has achieved the age of majority at the time of renouncement.(also debatable depending on time frame and actions)

FACT: There is no evidence that, having achieved the age of majority, Barack Hussein Obama renounced his (natural-born) US citizenship. (one could argue actions that he did such as getting a passport under a foreign countries birth cert/citizenship its not clear cut and also depends on the laws at the time)

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:24 pm 20. Martge:

Gee a paid announcement in a newspaper posted by an individual is the goodness honest truth…who would have believed that….

How about the wonderful “Headline” Jay Leno has every single Monday night…are they all the Goodness honest truth. This guy and his statement just shows the state of the MSM today. No wonder newspapers are folding.

Just think if Hitler was alive today all he would have to do is post a notice in a newspaper saying he was born in Hawaii and was eligible to be president……tsk tsk tsk.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:25 pm 21. Charles Worthington-Smythe:

You want to see a birth certificate? You are a racist extremist hate spewing bigot. Besides, laws only apply to the little people.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:33 pm 22. e:

Its sad to see people defend the birth certificate conspiracy. At the very least Obama’s mother is a US citizen. That’s the requirement for natural born citizenship, be born on US soil or from a parent who is a US citizen.

Might as well save your energy for more fruitful fights.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:38 pm 23. huxley:

Rick Moran — I have less and less use for you.

Sure, I don’t have any more respect for the “Show me the Birth Certificate” crowd than you do. But how many of these people are there compared to the 9-11 Truther crowd?

Why are you harping on this contrarian stuff? Do you imagine it is some important “Speaking Truth to Power”? It’s not. Nor does it compare to the utter viciousness that GWB has been subjected to for eight years.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:40 pm 24. bob:

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

From Obama’s FightTheSmears Blog Site

Doesn’t matter that his Kenyan citizenship ‘expired’. What matters is what he was when he was born. Obama has admitted he was British on his father’s side, at birth.

Natural born citizen, is the requirement, Donofrio affirms.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:42 pm 25. Robert Hurley:

Rick:

What a breath of fresh air. I think you are finding that wingnuts of the right ignore the facts when they get in the way of their fantasies. These are the same type of people who believe in aliens and that in the old days believed that Eisenhower was a tool of the Soviets. No amount of logic and facts can convince a true believers whose minds are frozen in the icechest of delusion

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:47 pm 26. cedarford:

Bob – His father was an English citizen. If your mother is a citizen, and your father is a citizen, and you are born on US soil, you are a natural born citizen, in Donofrio’s understanding of the Constitutional requirement. I think he is right.

Too many Presidential candidates and VPs debunk professional poker player Donofrio’s pet theory.

This has been sniviled about before, and laughed off then. Charles Curtis, the VP from 1928-32, was born to a non-citizen Indian Mother on Indian territory. Barry Goldwater was not born in the States, but a territory. George Romney was born in Mexico to US citizen parents. Spiro Agnew had a Greek immigrant Dad. Lowell Weicker was born in Paris to an English mother. Obama born in an American State to a citizen mother and a black African.

Americans all.

******************************
goy – The Supreme Court will review this issue tomorrow. Are you claiming that the SCOTUS is stricken with “ODS” too?

No, they meet in conference to see what, if any, nutball lawsuits they will take for review. That they do that lends no credence to the nutballs.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:54 pm 27. Rachel Peepers:

Rick,

You accept Al Franken’s use of forensics to uncover Franken votes while you condemn Republicans for insisting Obama present a birth certificate.

For years, Democrats have gone to extreme methods to undo election losses. It doesn’t surprise me that Republicans are now doing the same. What goes around comes around.

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:54 pm 28. robotech master:

Its nice to see the that ppl like rick are here to throw their own strawman in there… Those are some nice ones cedarford… none of which matter since they are all strawman…. the only ones of even remote issue are George Romney and Lowell weicker neither of which ran for president or were elected and thus your strawman are pointless….

Its nice to see only name calling, whining and o yes… facts… or the complete lack of them. Unlike robert hurley and cedarford who do nothing but whine, project, whine, whine alot, sling insults, redirect and a whole host of issues at least Charles Worthington-Smythe is honest hehe

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:59 pm 29. 24AheadDotCom:

Rick Moran is a liar. The “head of the Hawaiian health department and the Republican governor” never attested “to the validity of Obama’s actual birth certificate”.

All they said was that the cert was on file. It would be illegal for them to verify it or give out the information on it in any other way.

Here’s a round-up of others who’ve lied in a similar fashion, and see the link in the summary box for an exhaustive discussion of the “proof” that’s so far been provided:

http://24ahead.com/s/obama-citizenship

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:13 pm 30. AnninCA:

In today’s blog world, if the tin-foil hatters take over, then anyone not going with the flow is a “troll.”

So they like talking to one another, obviously, and please don’t interfere with their fantasies by bringing up relevant points.

When you mention, for example, that the State of Hawaii has confirmed his birth certificate as legal and valid, you’re met with disdain. Don’t stop the story of this “great” lawsuit by pointing out the facts.

If you mention that a citizen demanding evidence is equivalent to allowing, then, ANYONE to demand to see DNA evidence that your child is, in fact, your child…..that bit of legal logic flies right past.

Oh well, the nice part about the internet is that these groups end up talking in ever-insular circles. They only cite one another, and the circle grows smaller and smaller, until one day……*evaporation*.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:27 pm 31. AnninCA:

2-4…..the statement by the governor of Hawaii was published. You’re wrong.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:32 pm 32. Joshua:

I see no one’s brought up the elephant in the room yet… I might as well do the honors.

Even if there is something to the birth-certificate controversy, that doesn’t change the small fact that Barack Obama won the presidential election. It’s one thing for federal courts to strike down state laws, overturn state referenda, or intervene in state political races. That sort of thing is commonplace. But the presidential election is on a whole different level, if not in a whole different universe.

Regardless of what the law and/or the Constitution say, would any judge in any U.S. court really have the guts to tell 67 million voters across the country, “Sorry, the guy you voted for isn’t eligible” and effectively wipe out the signature event of the American political system? Maybe it’s just my cynicism combined with campaign weariness and late-night fatigue talking, but I seriously doubt it. In fact I fully expect any court faced with such a situation to bend as far over backwards as need be to declare Obama eligible for the Presidency.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:57 pm 33. Pajamas Media » Yes, Virginia, There Is Obama Derangement Syndrome | kozmom:

[...] details: Pajamas Media » Yes, Virginia, There Is Obama Derangement Syndrome [...]

Dec 4, 2008 - 11:59 pm 34. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran
RE: Heh

The birth certificate controversy shows that the only bipartisanship in America today is wild, unreasoning hatred for one’s political foes. — Rick Moran

Gee, Rick….since when is simply asking for a birth certificate ‘unreasoning hatred’?

After all, various government agencies ask ME and others to provide one at certain important times. You know, like the people who issue Social Security Numbers.

Do they exhibit ‘unreasoning hatred’ of all of US by doing so?

RE: Furthermore

What information on the birth certificate is so essential to Obama that it must be kept secret? Looking at mine I don’t see anything that would cause me to be worried if others saw it.

Or is there something on yours that is essential that you keep it from anyone interested in stealing YOUR identity?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[If once you forfeit the confidence of your fellow-citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. -- Abraham Lincoln]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:16 am 35. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Joshua
RE: That Darned Elephant

Even if there is something to the birth-certificate controversy, that doesn’t change the small fact that Barack Obama won the presidential election. — Joshua

Joshua…

…if there IS something to the birth-certificate controversy, that would be substantial, it would be that Obama was NOT born in the United States or any territory that would be recognized as under the jurisdiction thereof.

The consequence being that he could not have run for the office of the President of the United States.

If it were possible for a non-natural born citizen to run for said office, the Republicans could have put up Arnold the Governator. And the Democrats could have put up Saddam Hussein, if Bush hadn’t killed him.

Why you cannot grasp that simple fact speaks volumes on the quality of the vaunted American public education system.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[All the rights secured to the citizens under the Constitution are worth nothing, and a mere bubble, except guaranteed to them by an independent and virtuous Judiciary. -- Andrew Jackson]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:21 am 36. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Dave
RE: Really?

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth. — Dave

Care to provide the legal evidence that supports that claim?

Or is it all in your mind?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[It's all in the mind, ya know.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:26 am 37. Ben Florsheim:

It is precisely the fact that the Obama crowd have invested so much time and propaganda effort waving the WRONG certificate in our faces that makes a reasonable person suspicious.

The “certificate of live birth” states that the State of Hawaii now DEEMS Obama to have been born in Honolulu. However, under standard procedures in Hawaii (and most other states), this could be a fiction created in the course of a later adoption, name change etc. It does not necessarily tell us anything about his birth.

If you read the advertisement, you will note that it does NOT state where the child was born. Moreover, it seems that Obama senior was no longer living with his mother at the time.

If Obama was indeed been born outside the U.S. to his mother and her non-citizen husband, he would not have been a U.S. citizen under the laws at the time of birth, and thus is not a “natural born” citizen eligible to serve as president.

Of course, it is entirely possible that Barry was born in Hawaii, but is hiding something else – e.g. his birth certificate was in a different name, or no father’s name appears on the birth certificate. These facts would be personally embarrassing, but have no bearing on presidential eligibility.

Incidentally, FATCHECK.ORG (sic) is also plain wrong in claiming that Obama lost his Kenyan citizenship when he was 21. Under the Kenyan constitution in force at the time, his Kenyan citizenship was lost (due to dual nationality) 2 years later, when he turned 23. (However, former foreign citizenship has no bearing on “natural born” status.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:21 am 38. SamIam:

There is no ODS regarding this issue unless it continues after he releases the original documents to scrutiny. It is indeed a continuing, valid concern fed by Obama’s refusal to do so.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:35 am 39. Ben Florsheim:

Joshua is right, of course – the Supremes won’t touch this case with a 10 foot barge pole. The political implications are orders of magnitude beyond containment.

Most likely, they will simply decline to hear the matter without comment.

Alternatively, they will punt by objecting on grounds of “standing” (hard to argue against Alan Keyes), or finding that this matter is for Congress to resolve.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:55 am 40. fear Obama:

There is that word ‘RACISTS’ again.

If we question Obama we are all ‘RACISTS’?

I question Obama picking Hillary for Sect. Of State?

OH! NO!- I must be a ‘RACISTS’.

I guess Islamic extremest terrorist calling Obama an Uncle Tom House Negro are not terrorists but ‘RACISTS’? I just hope the ‘RACISTS’ don’t set off an atomic device in downtown Chicago.

Anyway….
The entire question of Obamas birth certificate is purely academic.

The Democrat controlled Senate and House will never let the Anointed One ‘President Elect’ be removed, impeached, slandered, chastised, or questioned, no matter what the Supremest Court clowns decide.

Unless he upsets their balance of Clinton-Reid-Peloski power?

Then Congress might turn ‘RACISTS’.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:15 am 41. Rick Moran:

Hey! Tin foil hatters! Here’s some more incontrovertible evidence you can ignore.

From yesterday’s Honolulu Advertiser:

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081101/NEWS05/811010345/1001/localnewsfront

“State Health Department employees continue to be barraged by requests from people demanding to see Barack Obama’s birth certificate, including some who have called the department’s registrar of vital statistics at home — in the middle of the night.

“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.”

So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?

“I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”

So must we all.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:33 am 42. Terry Gain:

“The above announcement of Obama’s birth appeared in the Honolulu Advertiser in August of 1961.”

Oh please. It appeared 9 days after hs birth. Why would you prefer this to production of his COLB?

As a lawyer whenever my client has a document which will disprove an allegation against him I produce it immediately to put the matter to rest. There is a controversy as to whether Obama was born in Kenya or Hawaii, Unlike cedarford I have no personal knowlwdge where he was born.

If Obama was born in Kenya we are sitting on a constitutional crisis of epic proportions. It is not inappropriate to demand that the COLB be produced. In fact it is irresponsible not to produce it and put the matter to rest.

Those who suggest this controversy bears any resemblance to 9/11 Tutherism are disingenuous, irrational or perhaps just plain stupid. It is a dishonest attempt to deflect attention away from a legitimate inquiry. We know who carried out the 9/11 attacks. Bush was Governor of Texas while they were being planned.

Until the COLB is produced and authenticated we don’t know where Obama was born. And the person responsible for the controversy is the person who could end it today.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:56 am 43. Terry Gain:

“So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?”
—
No. In the real world when there is an issue as to the authenticity of a document it is produced and examined by experts on both sides.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:00 am 44. Terry Gain:

By the way Rick have you grabbed a few shakes to go with those straws?.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:02 am 45. sydney jane:

Oh, please, what’s the big deal? Just release the original certificate of birth. The fact that this simple thing HASN’T been done is what makes me have doubts. Didn’t McCain release his, quickly, when he was questioned?

And, then there’s Obama’s Kenyan relatives who swear that he was born and his grandmother says she was there when he was born in Kenya and she was there at the hospital. Why would she lie? What is her political motivation?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:33 am 46. Tony R:

Rick wrote:

““I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”

So must we all.”

So must we all? Then what are you doing writing a column purporting to decry Right v Left loonies and then harp on about one isolated issue which was raised not just by the Right but also by Hillary’s Lefty supporters? If you have work to do then don’t drag up a topic that isn’t even particularly topical in the PJM sphere.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:36 am 47. Douglas Bogle:

Never fear Obama is here.

More smoke and mirrors. Simple, the fact is there is some reason the “O” does not want his birth certificate publicized.

A while back people thought it could be that it has the religion as Muslim. If indeed it says this, there will be a portion of the Obama voters that will feel they have been lied to.
This could cause the statement, ” I would never have voted for him if I knew…” Causing a backlash.

Now, the “O” has never lied to the American people.

Never fear Obama is here.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:02 am 48. Larry Poe:

I do not think the Supreme Court will take any action to stay the electoral college vote, but I believe that you and most of your posters miss the point of many of the lawsuits. The issue is not whether Obama is a citizen. He undoubtedly is. The issue is whether he is a natural born citizen, as required by the constitution. P. A. Madison at the Federalist Blog has posted a thorough discussion of the distinction, in which the following is stated:

“Therefore, we can say with confidence that a natural-born citizen of the United States means those persons born whose father the United States already has an established jurisdiction over, i.e., born to father’s who are themselves citizens of the United States. A person who had been born under a double allegiance cannot be said to be a natural-born citizen of the United States because such status is not recognized (only in fiction of law). A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.”

Read the whole thing at http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html. I’m not a lawyer, but it does not appear that the position that Obama is not a natural born citizen can be dismissed as easily as you do in your post. His birth in Honolulu establishes that he is a citizen. It does not make him a natural born citizen.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:20 am 49. SEW:

Let’s see if Obama can get a passport with the “newspaper announcement of birth.” Or a driver’s license? Or FBI clearance for a job!! Or any of those things with a “certificate of birth.” No wonder it took this idiot so long to log on to the internet. Oh, yea, why has Francois Kerry not followed through with release of his full military record as promised? Or his threats of lawsuits which would actually require release of same during discovery? More right wing nuts? Or liberals that don’t comprehend simply basic reason!!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:20 am 50. Valerie:

The Obama Campaign was very much interested in John McCain’s citizenship papers, and he produced them.

There is nothing wrong with expecting Barack Obama to do the same.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:05 am 51. susan:

It’s so funny to see the obamatrons performing OS on their candidate.

What about this: someone who has been bragging all along about his outstanding IQ, his outstanding school carreer, his outstanding studying ability doesn’t release his school records.

Isn’t it strange? You would suppose someone as arrogant as him would release them to further corroborate is superior intelligence.

Instead they are hidden. I bet it’s because somewhere there it’s written that he listed himself as a foreigner to be able to access the university more easily.

There is no other reason for someone to hide school records when they are so outstanding.

More power to others, who released them even if they weren’t that outstanding. I rather have someone who graduated bottom of his class on his own merit, rather than a pompous ass graduating thanks to tricks.

What a fraud this man is. I pity poor old USA.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:09 am 52. CTN:

After reading this article, two things became abundantly clear to me: First, Mr. Moran is completely ignorant of the primary question at the center of this controversy, as well as the evidence that Obama has presented to answer that question. Second, Mr. Moran would rather advance abusive ad hominems, for who knows what reason, than actually report facts.

Therefore, I have a few questions for Mr. Moran, or even the editors of this website who approved of this irresponsible twaddle:

1. Can you explain to us why the founding fathers inserted Article II Section I into the US Constitution?
2. Can you please tell us if SCOTUS has ever defined a “natural born citizen” as it applies to this context?
3. Can you tell us why you believe that Obama meets the constitutional requirement for POTUS even though he has already conceded that he was a citizen of Kenya by birth and a real investigative reporter discovered that he was once a citizen of Indonesia?
4. And as long as I’m on it, can you tell us if Obama’s Indonesian citizenship was natural or naturalized?
5. Finally, regarding your link in comment 41: Can you please tell us if the Hawaiian who claims to have seen Obama’s Certificate of Birth acted in accordance with Hawaiian code and, more importantly, if he established that Obama is a “natural born citizen” pursuant to the terms of the Constitution?

I assure that I’m not wearing a tinfoil hat when I ask these questions, so I sincerely ask you to remove your dunce cap before you answer them.

Take a word from someone who means you no harm: You should retract this article and apologize for it, and then write something that is actually grounded in fact, such as these two helpful pieces:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/why_the_barack_obama_birth_cer.html

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin84.htm

You, and the boneheads who published this trash, are really irresponsible.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:11 am 53. Little Banana:

This has nothing to do with ODA and is probably old news to some of you, but I just read in today’s paper (Ireland) that Obama has a half brother in China. Is this true and is it old or new news?

Good God! His father sure did get around….!

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:12 am 54. cedarford:

robotech master – Those are some nice ones cedarford… none of which matter since they are all strawman…. the only ones of even remote issue are George Romney and Lowell weicker neither of which ran for president or were elected and thus your strawman are pointless….

Uh, Chochise..George Romney and Wiecker both filed as Presidential Candidates and ran. As for the others, they are all relevant to Donofrio’s silly argument that ONLY people BOTH born in an existing US State AND of TWO American citizens are “native born”.
Glad to see you also think Donofrio’s case is a pile of crap on the “two citizens” as parents AND born in a US State argument.

*****************
Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran
RE: Heh

“The birth certificate controversy shows that the only bipartisanship in America today is wild, unreasoning hatred for one’s political foes.” — Rick Moran

Gee, Rick….since when is simply asking for a birth certificate ‘unreasoning hatred’?

Yah, sure Pelto. I think most people are wise to the Truthers. We all have a good idea that when someone “simply asks” for evidence the Jews did not blow up the WTC, demands “evidence” that Hillary had an alibi, and her bank records and phone calls show she didn’t hire a hitman – and kill Vince Foster.

It’s pure hatred disguised in a passive-agressive way as a “quest for the truth”.

Moran is right. These sort of people, possibly including you, are not motivated by curiosity or by “just innocently wanting more evidence”. They are motivated by raw hatred for America, Bush, the Clintons, Obama….THAT is why they are so impervious to the facts.
People with simple curiosity or innocently wanting evidence are rapidly satiated with a little common sense or hearing that the people in charge of birth records in Hawaii have concluded it is a valid cert. Not various Truthers. Giving them the facts or a piece of evidence they want only produces new demands that a “court” opine on the facts or the facts aren’t “certified facts”. When a court does accept the facts, it is evidence the courts too, are in on the Conspiracy.

Another facet of the Truthers is the nefarious nature of their Conspiracies…which mainly aim to destroy the public’s belief in the integrity of democratic institutions. They seek to delegitimize Presidents, our allies (Israel, the UK), our institutions (CIA, the Navy that downed TWA Flight 800 because possibly Vince Foster’s hitman was onboard – on orders from the Clintons – then involved 800 Navy sailors who swore an oath of service willingly participating in the “coverup”).
Truthers enable our enemies.
Trust me, Arabs lap up Truther tales of the Mossad blowing up the WTC. Russia and China are happy if Truthers create good propaganda they can use on their own masses to claim the President and Commander in Chief of America is not legally elected, is a conniving mass murderer, etc.

*********************
But while Truthers have a cancerous impact on the body politic and weaken our society…they only do so slightly because most people, free of their hatreds, readily distinguish Truthers from the Grassy Knollers up to the Secret Kenyan Birth folks as the small band of nutballs and pack of assholes they are. And as reviled as Truthers have become to most Americans, the most effective thing to confront their hatreds is to laugh at them, point them out as the fools & psychotics they are.

I freely bash them because the present strains of Truther cancer do have the tendency to brand rational Republicans a whiff of the taint of their their deranged ideology.

****************
Terry Gain – There is a controversy as to whether Obama was born in Kenya or Hawaii, Unlike cedarford I have no personal knowlwdge where he was born.

I never said I had personal knowledge. But to me and most rational people, the idea of a vast conspiracy to fly Ann Obama to Kenya on a very expensive and medically dangerous flight to give birth weeks after she completed her university semester? With both her and her husband unemployed, her mother still a secretary, not the small exec she became 20 years later – to pay for a roundtrip ticket costing half of what the Durham grandparents made in a year? Against doctors advice? Deliver in a primitive Luong village of poor sanitation and nothing but a walk-in clinic? Then figure out he might be President someday – so rely on the others in the vast conspiracy – to make a fake birth certificate and hospital records then have someone pretending to be from the Hospital call the media for the weekly baby births announcement?(Oh, and secretly kill the real nurse so the paper didn’t get two different birth lists?)
Tell you what, go to 1,000 American women in their 9th month, having their 1st baby, and say you want to have them have the baby in black Africa and pay for a hugely expensive round-trip ticket (in 1961 air travel was far more expensive than now). I suspect the general response you Truthers would get would be
“Are you f*cking crazy??”

And with Truthers, well, yes, some are hateful and others are plain crazy.

Witness the Lefty Truthers sliming Palin who maintained they were simply demanding some innocent small things – to clear their minds and put themselves at ease that a Secret Birth involving Palins underage daughter and an Alaskan “coverup” – about Palin and Travis didn’t exist. Simple things, like her baby’s birth Certificate and a copy of her medical gynecological records turned over to a Truther lawyer for “analysis by experts and a judge who honors rule of law”.
Palin gave the figurative response through the campaigns lawyers – “You demand my baby’s birth certificate? My medical records? F*ck off, assholes.”

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:12 am 55. TomJW:

32. Joshua:
Dec 4, 2008 – 10:57 pm

So Joshua, we drop being a nation of laws and start becoming a nation ruled by those with the most guts. I think Stalin and Mao already did that.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 am 56. misanthropicus:

To: Hurley, Cedarford and the rest of the Obamatrolls swarming this thread
From: Oliver Stone:
RE: anti-Obamama conspiracy

A) Is the Franziskus school enrollement page (Djakarta) which describes Obama as (1) Muslim, (2) Indonesian citizen, and (3) as “Barry” also a hallucination?
The AP and other agencies which have dealt with that have all attested its authenticity – so, can any Obamatroll come with an explanation bridging Obama’s alleged early American citizenship to his Indonesian years, then back, to his American status return?

B) Why doesn’t Obama make available for examination his Illinois state bar application, where many would be interested to check the answer at: “under what other names, if any, did you ever conduct business?” Why is this application, like so many other records of him (medical records) is kept under lock?

C) His travel papers to Pakistan in 1981 – there is no record of Obama having an US issued travel document when visiting Pakistan. Can any Obamatroll enter in a contortion process and explain that?

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:17 am 57. Spider79:

I had my Commercial Drivers License renewed in Texas last week and had to go home and get my ORIGINAL birth certificate before they would renew it. Good grief. It’s not like I’m runninig for President or anything.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:19 am 58. Ann:

One of America’s great stabilizing realities has always been that we are “a nation of laws”.

Our Constitution isn’t worth the paper it’s written on if it is not honored in reality. This dispute is based in that simple reference point. The Constitution defines what qualifies a person for the Presidency and–WHOA! There are some people who would like to be sure that is being honored! How hateful is that???!!! Who do they think they are, making that kind of demand! Unreasonable, hateful people!

We’ve not only lost the language; we’ve lost any sense of commonality regarding what we know, what our reference points are, what our heritage is and what constitutes the United States of America.

The Chinese Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to the Chinese people. That’s not working out so well for them for the simple reason that the provision is not honored in every day reality.

You hatemongers who want to yell “HATE SPEECH” every time a conservative says, “Now wait a minute….” need to wake up. Of course, I know you won’t. You are the ones who have been living, moment to moment, on unreasoning hatred for your political foes for years and years.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:23 am 59. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran
RE: Tin-Foil Hatters?

“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.” — Rick Moran

The argument, that Fukino’s statement, provides evidence that Obama has a Hawaiian birth certificate wouldn’t hold up in even a JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL debate tournament. Even if it had an intelligent elementary school student as the judge.

And, as far as ’statements’ from government officials go….

….I trust them as far as I trust Senator Kerry’s being a war-hero. I’ve been lied to by government officials. So have YOU, I’ll wager. So why do you trust them in the first place…at their word…on something as important as this?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[In God we trust. Everyone else needs to provide proper paperwork.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:36 am 60. Chuck Pelto:

TO: cedarford
RE: [OT] How Gullible Can You Get

Are you saying there are no such things as ‘conspiracies’? And you claim to have been a military officer?

Companies conspire against their competition all the time. Countries do the same. And you think politicans DON’T?

I thought better of your intelligence and experience. But instead, you’re nothing more than the typical politically-motivated ‘progressive’ we encounter all too often. All you do is talk in order to avoid understanding.

Too bad….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Oratory: A conspiracy between speech and action to cheat understanding.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:42 am 61. Peter the Sub Guy:

13. Dave wrote:
FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.

Peter responds: Dave needs to check his facts better. Sorry, dave, but just because your parents may be US citizens does NOT automatically make you a US citizen if you are born outside the US. You must be born on sovereign US territory (ie Military base, embassy, legal territory like Guam or the Panama Canal Zone when it was a US protectorate, US naval vessel, etc). If you are, for example, born in a hospital in England, even if you come from 10 generations of US citizens, the law says you are an English citizen and therefore inelegible to be POTUS.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:43 am 62. dan:

i don’t think there’s much to the birth certificate thing, personally. i’d be shocked if i were wrong. but i am suspicious about obama’s friends and the obvious help he got along the way. there is a paranoid style in american politics, and it is bipartisan (preferrably “nonpartisan”), but the more conventional, legitimate history that emerges from the Cold War period concerning what exactly the KGB was and did, the more it we should simply realize that the Left’s paranoid image of the CIA is exactly what the KGB was and is. see? look at the little piece written by David Kahane in NRO on the eve of the election.

but of course the concern is in all probability misplaced. part of its attraction is that it’s just so damn entertaining. also, Obama is and has always been pretty much totally full of sh*t (and raised 750 MILLION DOLLARS), so why not indulge a little.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:50 am 63. jdoe:

It’s payback time for all of the vile personal attacks against George Bush, Dick Cheney, General Petraeus and Sarah Palin et. al. put forward by the Leftist media elites, over the past 8 years. They have succeeded in lowering the bar for public discourse to such an extent that it may never recover. And frankly, that’s just fine with me because my tolerance for the Left has been completely expended by their excesses. Now it’s our turn. After January 21st it’s going to be Obama bashing time. Personally, I can’t wait to get the party started!!!

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:51 am 64. Terry Gain:

cedarford

I prefer that the COLB be authenticated to your silly and unpersuasive speculation about conspiracies. As a litigation lawyer I am trained to produce and demand the best evidence. This is obviously a concept foreign to you. You are out of your league and you should drop the ad hominens as they only make you look inadequate.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:54 am 65. Terry Gain:

Oh, and if Palin had been elected VP the MSM would be demanding a video of her birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:55 am 66. Peter the Sub Guy:

32. Joshua wrote:
Regardless of what the law and/or the Constitution say, would any judge in any U.S. court really have the guts to tell 67 million voters across the country, “Sorry, the guy you voted for isn’t eligible” and effectively wipe out the signature event of the American political system? Maybe it’s just my cynicism combined with campaign weariness and late-night fatigue talking, but I seriously doubt it. In fact I fully expect any court faced with such a situation to bend as far over backwards as need be to declare Obama eligible for the Presidency.

Peter responds: So let me get this straight? What you, Joshua, are saying is that Obama is ABOVE the law? Above the CONSTITUTION, the HIGHEST law in the land? That, should it turn out that he is NOt a US citizen, that the entire US shoud say, “oh, heck with that pesky little Constitution, it doesn’t mean anything anyway’? Is THAT what you are SAYING??? That the Constitution and Laws mean NOTHING if they stand in the way of the almighty Obama being ordained into his rightful office???

I’m sorry, but I took an oath to “Protect and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United States from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.” And if it ever comes to light that Obama lied, cheated and stole his way to the hightest office in the land, I will be the first to demand his removal, by whatever means necessary.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:55 am 67. Spider79:

Silly Wingnuts! Look what you’ve done now. You have caused Mr. Moran to interrupt his busy morning. Fortunately he has laid the entire controversy to rest. The b.c. is without doubt legititimate. 2 guys in Hawaii say so. So there.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:06 am 68. Robert Hurley:

Rick:

You did not really think you would get a rational response from this crowd did you? Their hatred for Obama blinds them from any rational thought. You can see how the Jonestown suicides occured. Ironically, they are guilty of the same behavior they accuse the “obamatrons” having. This is all very rich as their insanity insures that any other statement they make will be treated as more insanity. The left must be revelling in see them discredit the conservative movement

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:09 am 69. Xanthippe:

Welcome to the internet, where no conspiracy is too crazy.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of people do not believe these theories – whether they are espoused on the left or the right, but adding fuel to the fire probably ensures that they gather a few more adherents.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:19 am 70. Walt:

Having lived in foreign countries for over 20-years of my life, I have become very familiar with the laws governing US citizenship regarding those born overseas.

May I give you a couple of examples:
A child is born to an Army Captain and his wife(both US citizens) in Germany while they are assigned to duty in Germany. The child is born an American!

A child is born to an engineer and his wife (both US citizens) in Japan while he is employed by Toyota in Japan. The child is born a Japanese!

The difference is that the Army Captain is there representing the US (the same applies to foreign diplomats, etc.).

The engineer is in Japan of his own volition and bears the responsibility of where his child is born and the resultant citizenship.

The above is the reason Sen. McCain holds a valid US citizenship even though born in Panama – his father was stationed there in the Navy at the time.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:23 am 71. susan:

LOL, robert hurley lecturing others about derangement syndrome

what’s next? a pedophile warning us about the perils of children?

oh and, to further prove you are full of it

“Ironically, they are guilty of the same behavior they accuse the “obamatrons” having. ”

sorry but I fail to see where and when McCain has been idolized and branded as perfect man, perfect human being, saviour, messiah and such. Not even Reagan nowadays is revered so much.

Sorry robert, if you take your head out of your ass long enough you will find out that the true descendants of the jonestown cult are you and your bunch. Nobody else.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:26 am 72. Terry Gain:

“Robert Hurley:

Rick:

You did not really think you would get a rational response from this crowd did you? ”

-

Well certainly not from you.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:38 am 73. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Rick Moran & Tin-Foil Hatter Allegation

I find it interesting that Rick failed to answer my question about how it is ‘unreasoning hatred’ that someone should ask to see a simple official document with proper information, signatures and seals.

Instead of addressing the question, he ‘raises’ the level of debate/discussion to the ad hom.

An interesting tactic practiced by lawyers, as described in the Lawyer’s Rule:

[1] If the Law is against you, argue the facts.
[2] If the facts are against you, argue the Law.
[3] If the Law and the facts are against you, call the other side names.
—
The Official Rules: A Compendium of Truths and Laws for Living

The Law here being that only a natural-born citizen of the United States can be president thereof.

The fact here being uncertain—and therefore suspect—as long as no one is willing to produce for examination an official, signed and sealed, document that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii, as opposed to Kenya; where his living grandmother claims she witnessed it.

So, being unable to refute option 1 or provide option 2, Rick goes for option #3…..’tin-hat hatters’….

Great work, that….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Incredibly rude and childish comments recognized.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:40 am 74. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. About that article in the Honolulu Advertiser…

…I’m reminded that during the last General Election, the Boston Globe was telling outright and refuted lies about Governor Palin.

And Rick TRUSTS newspapers?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:43 am 75. Preposteroso:

As has been said many times in many places, the thing about the birth certificate is easily laid to rest by simply showing the birth certificate. Photographs of a birth certificate are not a birth certificate. The next time a policeman stops me and asks to see my driving licence he is likely to arrest me and put me in prison if I attempt to palm him off with a photograph of my driving licence. SHOW US YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND WE’LL ALL PIPE DOWN! GO ON, SHOW IT!

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:44 am 76. Robert Hurley:

Poor Susan revealing her bile again – DO you have children?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:47 am 77. misanthropicus:

RE #68/R.Hurley, Cedarford & Cie. -

If one’s gotten yellow glowing hair, if one’s gotten huge orange pants w/green suspenders, if one’s gotten wurst-sized red nose, if one’s gotten #44 red shoes, if one’s twisting & squeaking colored balloons, if there’s abunch of toddlers picking their noses around him, if he’s quacking like a Soetero troll… well, can’t be but a Soeterotroll.

Hurley & Cie, all what you do is obfuscating and attributting to others the results of the psychological evalutions done on you – still, I give you the chance to impress everybody explaining the Franziskus school/Barry Soetero registration form matter (see post #56).
Do it clowns, come with a credible explanation bridgeing Soetero’s jump from, supposedly US citizen (Hawaii) to certified Indonesian citizenship (Franziskus documentation), then back to the supposedly current US citizenship.
Do it – squeak those colored balloons, we’ll observe your procedures.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:51 am 78. RE:

Conspiracy threoists are a fact of life. Mr. Moran needs to get over it. His self righteous posturing and lecturing is every bit as obnoxious as are the ‘truthers’. It’s just more useless noise.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:53 am 79. Tony R:

Susan,

I’m surprised you actually still read the text of Robert Hurleys “contributions”.

I see the name, I skip over it and look for the next actual proper post. Troll-speak is just too repetitive to be worth reading.

For some strange reason I thought that the Robert Hurley’s of the web would leave PJM alone once their saviour was annointed but I don’t know why I thought that now. I forgot that they live for issuing insults and negativity from their dark basements in between their self-abuse sessions.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:00 am 80. Brian Richard Allen:

Mr Moran employs all of the debating skills of a Saul Alinsky grad — and then throws in a huge dollop of moral equivilence.

The self and own culture loathing mobbed-up Marxist murtadd Muslim Arab-African, (SOA)B Hussein bin B Hussayn bin Hussayn Muhummad, (from now on to be known as NMFingP! — or as Zero) presently pretends to the orifice of the “presidente” erect — or some such Cli’ton-esqely ego-maniacal arrogance. To which delusionally-fantasized “office” Zero claims to have been “elected.” Apparently by his fellow cryptofascists and by America’s deluded, deceived and deranged. And by the required around 10 million third world criminal aliens, the felons, the dead, the imaginary, by Disney characters and, in fifty states, by Texas football teams. NMFingP! — in a New York minute — can put the demands for his birth certificate to rest. By producing an un-tampered-with birth certificate.

Presidents Bush and Bush and Reagan, on the other hand, couldn’t put to rest the gross libels and slanders promulgated in just one day — lets pick today, December 5 2008. Not even if they hired every honest American lawyer and spent like the current full blown fascist congress for the next one hundred years.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:02 am 81. Jeff Weimer:

Okay people, here’s the LAW concerning citizenship, as hosted by Cornell so I’d trust it. This should put pat ANY of this nonsense about Obama’s citizenship in reference to Donofrio. He is greatly mistaken, to the point it seeems he hasn’t EVEN READ THE LAW. but don’t take my word for it, READ it!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

Good lord, I don’t always agree with Robert Hurley (he’s got his own case of BDS), but the evidence is overwhelming.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:03 am 82. AnOldFriend:

Is it Rick Moran or Rick Moron? Rick do you always buy everything on face value? Ask yourself why Barack has spent so much time energy and money to fight this issue rather than just provide his birth certificate. Do some more research on the subject Rick and you will find that in Hawaii you can get a certificate of live birth even if you were not born there.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:04 am 83. susan:

Poor Robert, defending the indefensible and having a virtual love affair with an empty suit – DO you have a woman?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:16 am 84. The Wizard:

If Obama was truly born in Hawaii, just present the original birth certificate with his little foot print on it. The problem is, his family all say he was born in Kenya, as his mother could not travel because of her pregnancy. He father was Kenyan, living in Kenyan. That would make Obama Kenyan, not a US citizen. His birth was registered upon her return. The alledged “birth certificate” uses language, i.e. African American, that was not used in 1961!!!!! It is believed to be a doctored copy of his sister’s certificate, forged for his benefit! Do you really think he went to Hawaii to visit his grandmother in the nidst of his election….I think not. A man with $750,000,000 can buy a lot of silence, and at a time the Phillip Berg case was on the docket. I think the Obamanation is a liar, fraud and a racist, certainly not deserving of the presidency.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:20 am 85. CTN:

Jeff Weimer,

I for one want to thank you for providing the link that addresses citizenship. I’m sure I speak for everyone on this side of the issue when I say it was truly helpful and informative insofar as it addressed the question of US citizenship.

However, I noticed that the link you furnished failed to define a “natural born citizen.” Moreover, I also noticed that it neglected to answer the questions of dual citizenship resulting from birth and dual citizenship as a result of (possible) naturalization in a country that prohibited dual citizenship at the time period in question.

If you could provide us with that link, I’m sure everyone would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 86. Rashputin:

Derangement Syndrome – Like Hitler, Obama isn’t a natural born citizen of the country he intends to control. Also like Hitler, he intends to establish his own corps of national internal security troops and has made it clear he intends to fund and equip them as well as the nation’s regular forces. If he announces great national highway projects and something like the VolksChevy, the comparison will become even more striking.

Honest question – why did the democrat party not have a copy of Obama’s birth certificate on file before they permitted him to run in the primaries, much less once he became their nation al candidate? He must know whether the can produce the proper documents, and if so, they should have been forthcoming a long time ago. Why are they locked up rather than being part of the record already?

I guess to Rick there’s no real difference between the two.
Regards

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 87. Frank:

I don’t personally believe Obama was born outside the United States, but I don’t believe he has adequate citizenship.

For to become a citizen of Indonesia (as Obama was) you must renounce the citizenship of other nations. Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship. And as far as anyone can tell so far, when Obama and family moved back to America, no one ever went to the trouble of renewing his citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 88. Someguy:

A government is a representation of those it “represents”. When it becomes apparent that we are no longer a country of laws…..breaking the law will become contagious.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 89. Brian Richard Allen:

Thank you “susan” for #71. Took the words from me mouth.

Poor cryptofascistic and/or deceived, deluded and deranged FasciSSocialst Psychosis suffering Zero worshippers every time , by their definitive Tourette’s-like projection of their driving psychopathology, expose themslves like a psychopathic Cli’ton to a fat and/or ugly intern.

Funny, isn’t it though, that almost nothing any of them can say, bad or good, about either our blokes — or theirs, is true. And even a paragraph as crazily “liberal-speak” spoke as that above this cannot be fact-check faulted.

<:^)~<

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:29 am 90. seven:

No certificate and someone wants the one with a doctors signature and the foot print? All the Democratic intellectuals know that black babies using black ink on white paper don’t leave a foot print.
It would be solid.Republicans know the truth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:32 am 91. Robert Hurley:

Susan:

I take that as a no – Good thing -

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:33 am 92. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Why….

Poor Susan revealing her bile again – DO you have children? — Robert Hurley

…is it that when these supposedly ‘intelligent’ people cannot refute facts or Law, the ALWAYS go for the ad hom.

I mean, it’s not just silly Robert Hurley, but it’s Rick Moran and Cedarford as well.

I thought the latter two were rather intelligent, but these last few days, between the Hillary nomination for SecState and Obama’s questionable citizenship, they’ve seriously gone off the deep end in their efforts to protect The One….

….as opposed to having an abiding interest in seeking the truth of a matter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Whose side am I on? The Truth. Is there another? -- Lanier, Bablyon5]

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:33 am 93. Anonymous:

Sorry Dave, but BOTH parents must be US citizens if the child is born outside of the country. If born inside the US, all bets are off… see “Anchor Babies.”

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:34 am 94. Robert Hurley:

The Wizard:

You are not the Wizard of Oz by any chance?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:38 am 95. cfb:

Let’s remember something, shall we?

The REPUBLICAN President, responsible for preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution, isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN Presidential Candidate isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

None of the REPUBLICAN Presidential nomination candidates is challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN Governor of Hawaii isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN Governors of Vermont, Connecticut, California, Florida, Minnesota and Indiana, all of which Obama won, aren’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN House and Senate members, who have the right to challenge the reporting of Electoral Votes in the Congress, aren’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN leaning talk show leaders: (Limbaugh, Hannity et al) aren’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

FOX NEWS isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

How is it all of these opponents of Barack Obama are unable or unwilling to do what’s RIGHT? Is it perhaps because they’ve figured out that this claim is WRONG?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:42 am 96. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran, et al.
RE: Indeed

Photographs of a birth certificate are not a birth certificate. — Preposteroso

Especially when they lack such things as:

[1] Name of attending physician.
[2] Signature of same.
[3] Name of hospital or address of delivery location.
[4] Seal of a notary public or other government appointed offical
[5] Signature of such offical.

I could provide a document similar in nature to the one proffered by the Obama campaign that would prove that Arnold the Governator was born in Washington DC.

But I’d omit the word “LASER” on the worthless piece of paper, that the Obama campaign failed to cover up on their ‘document’.

Or did we have ‘laser’ printers in 1961 and I was completely unaware? Maybe the people at MIB had such back then. And THAT would make Obama even more ‘alien’ than I originally thought.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Have we elected an illegal alien as the future President of the United States?]

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:43 am 97. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Robert Hurley
RE: The Wizard

You are not the Wizard of Oz by any chance? — Robert Hurley

Whatever he/she/it is, they’re certainly more intelligent than you, as they can at least keep on-topic instead of going for sophomoronic ad homs.

Or is it that you’re part of some perverse ‘Judy Garland’ fan club? Looking for a wise old man, are you?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ad homs, a game anyone can play. The chief difference being the intelligence behind the game-play.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:47 am 98. Hess:

It is apparent that we need a state motor vehicle dept to confirm eligibility for POTUS since no one else appears capable or willing to do so.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:49 am 99. James:

Right…

It’s not derangement to insist that the Obamanation show that he’s a natural born US citizen, which he has manifestly not done – and which he refuses to do.

What’s deranged is trashing our Constitutional republic.

James

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:53 am 100. August:

Rick: “Hey! Tin foil hatters!”

Oh, hee, hee. However, such clumsy ad hominem attacks merely muddy the waters of what should be a very simple issue: Obama is either constitutionally elegible to be president or he is not. Everything else is crap. If it would benefit Obama to release his official birth certificate (or his college transcripts, for that matter), he would have done so long ago. I’m having trouble thinking of any other reason to hide such a benign document.

One need not have headwear by Reynolds Wrap to think this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:02 am 101. omad:

13. Dave wrote:
FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.
WRONG !!!! Here is the law:

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock:
A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. [For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.]

She did not live in the US for 5 years after the age of 14 before he was born. If he was born overseas, not only would he not have “natural born” citizenship, he would not have US citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:05 am 102. Brian Richard Allen:

Dear Jeff Weimer

I am an American and — having been born outside my America and of foreign born parents — am an immigrant American.

I am, therefore, precedent insists, entitled to special Hyphenated-American Status!

I have exercised that right, have declared myself an AMERICAN-American. And, therefore, (this being, after all, the land of we free and brave) am an AMERICAN-American.

But despite my official AMERICAN-American Status, sad to say, my not being a natural born American is forever a bar to my being elected to office.

The Authority, by the way, that forever bars me from the office of President of the United States is not to be found in Cornell Law’s nor any other school’s “interpretation” of “case law” — but in Article II of the United States Constitution, To Whit:

“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

Mr Zero, (AKA “NMFingP!”) having put himself on the public record as neither respecting nor believing in the United States Constitution and as recently as this week having ignored it in his nomination of the recidivist, lying, looting, thieving, mass-murdering, co-serial rapist DC Bar failure junior senator from Illinois … um Arkansas … um New York to be secretary of state, might also, was he an actual American and not the alien his grandmother and others insists him to be — and that a considerable body of other evidence, including of his having been both and Indonesian citizen/national and passport holder, supports — have difficulty with the oath or affirmation of office, to whit:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Or he could produce his original birth certificate.

Insofar as this matter is concerned, Mr Zero’s lying and his evasions permit the very reasonable inference he does not meet the Constitutional standard.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:08 am 103. dirtyrottenvarmint:

Rick,

You might want to do a little more research.

The petition that the Court is discussing does not assert that Obama is not a U.S. citizen born in Hawaii. The petition asserts that Obama was born the son of a British subject, and under British law was thus himself a British subject at the time of his birth, _as well as a U.S. citizen but not a “natural born” citizen_. The question the Court may discuss, if it so decides, is whether the U.S. Constitution would allow, e.g., Vladimir Putin’s son to become President, were such a son born in the United States to a woman who is a U.S. citizen. This issue has nothing to do with Obama per se; the defendant in the lawsuit is neither Obama nor the DNC. This is a question of how to interpret the “natural born” clause in Article 2 of the Constitution.

One further note. A newspaper is not a legal document. But, again, Obama’s status as a U.S. citizen born in Hawaii is not at issue in the petition before the Court.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:11 am 104. susan:

Robert Hurley, I guess you are without a woman. That explains a lot.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:12 am 105. Robert Hurley:

Chuck:

OK lets make a bet. I say this case has no merit and will never by won by the nuts. Say a small donation to the charity of your choice. If I win you you make a donation to a charity of your choice

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:12 am 106. Thinking Person:

Could this not all be solved by just publishing the birth certificate? Sure, “officials” have seen it and attested to it’s authenticity but just publish the damned thing and get it over with! We get to see their tax records and their health records….why not just pull out the birth certificate? Personally I believe it’s legitimate (although I wish it weren’t) but Obama himself is causing this by all of the withholding and lawyering up. If it’s legit, prove the hysterical conspiracy theorists wrong!

Lastly…..I don’t know about anyone else but I’m tiring of the “tin foil hat” bs. I don’t care if you’ve tattooed biblican verses on your forehead or do abortions in your garage under goat horns….as Americans we have a RIGHT to have an opinion and question our elected officials. So quit thinking that you can elevate your comment by throwing out the tin foil hat crap and my favorite…the racist comment. It just weakens your own argument to the level of sniveling.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:16 am 107. Terry Gain:

@95 cfb

As to your “The Republicans aren’t etc”

You want us to draw inferences. We want the best evidence. Our logic is superior to yours.

Obama: Produce the COLB.

Obamatrons and weak-kneed Repubs: Stop telling us to STFU and instead tell Obama to produce the COLB.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:17 am 108. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Robert Hurley
RE: Why Bet?

OK lets make a bet. I say this case has no merit and will never by won by the nuts. — Robert Hurley

The important thing is whether or not he is a natural-born citizen of the United States. Isn’t that the whole point?

If he is, I’m satisfied that the Law of the Land has been obliged.

But if he is NOT….then there is a serious problem.

The proof would be a bona fide and not counterfeit birth certificate. Wouldn’t it?

So why all the obfuscation and ad homs on yours, cedarford’s and Rick’s part?

Why not just simply call for the documentation that would prove the matter?

Or are you afraid of something? Something about you ASSUME he is a natural-born citizen?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[When you ASSUME something, you make an ASS out of U and ME.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:22 am 109. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Failure to provide such proof is an indication that he is NOT a natural-born citizen.

I do believe that is the way the rules regarding evidence work….

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:26 am 110. misanthropicus:

TO: all Soeterotrolls

“Court to weigh question about Obama citizenship”/ Washington Times/Tom Ramstack/Friday, December 5, 2008

Buzz up!The Supreme Court plans to meet Friday to decide whether to hear a case that could determine whether President-elect Barack Obama ever becomes the nation’s president.
Justice Clarence Thomas picked up the petition to hear New Jersey attorney Leo Donofrio’s lawsuit after it was denied by Justice David H. Souter. Justice Thomas referred it to the full court, which decided to distribute the case for the judges’ conference.
The decision to put the case on Friday’s docket resulted from more than a dozen lawsuits challenging Mr. Obama’s right to be president based on his citizenship at birth. The issue preoccupied many conservative bloggers in the weeks before the Nov. 4 election [who believe that] President-elect Barack Obama was born under the jurisdiction of a foreign power, Britain, and is therefore ineligible to serve as president of the United States, according to a lawsuit that has reached the Supreme Court. [...]

Nevertheless, for the lawsuit even to make it to the docket raises the possibility of an unprecedented case going before the Supreme Court . At least four of the court’s nine judges must approve before the case is heard.
Mr. Donofrio originally sued New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells, seeking a court order to stop the Nov. 4 presidential election. When that was denied, he amended his complaint to stop the Electoral College from certifying Mr. Obama as the winning candidate when it meets Dec. 15.
Unlike many of the lawsuits regarding Mr. Obama’s citizenship – which claim he was born on foreign soil – Mr. Donofrio’s case concedes that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii as he claims. Mr. Donofrio contends, however, that Mr. Obama is not a “natural born citizen,” as Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution requires.
“Don´t be distracted by the birth certificate and Indonesia issues,” Mr. Donofrio said in a statement on the Citizen Wells Web site. “They are irrelevant to Senator Obama´s ineligibility to be president.

“Since Barack Obama´s father was a citizen of Kenya, and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of Senator Obama´s birth, then Senator Obama was a British citizen ‘at birth,’ just like the framers of the Constitution, and therefore, even if he were to produce an original birth certificate proving he were born on U.S. soil, he still wouldn´t be eligible to be president.”

—-*—-

Next: the Choir of the Soeterotrolls

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:28 am 111. Peter the Sub Guy:

98. Hess wrote:
It is apparent that we need a state motor vehicle dept to confirm eligibility for POTUS since no one else appears capable or willing to do so.

Peter replies: Don’t use the one in NYS. They were considering allowing illegals to have NYS drivers licenses until the public found out and the outcry became too great.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:29 am 112. bobdog:

Obama and his minions are responsible for putting those pods in your basement, just waiting for you to go to sleep.

Then you’ll wake up, start mumbling incoherently about “change” and use the words “finally” and “get even” a lot, and then start prattling endlessly to others. The intention is to make you sleepy, and then they’ve GOT YOU!

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:30 am 113. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Thinking Person
RE: Considering….

Sure, “officials” have seen it and attested to it’s authenticity but just publish the damned thing and get it over with! — Thinking Person

…the technology available today—high-tech counterfeiting—it might be necessary to do some forensics on the offered document; paper, ink, age, etc.

I say this based on that STUPID counterfeit document offered some years ago by Dan Rather about Bush. Furthermore, I see Franken is asking for forensic evaluation of the ballots in the Minnesota senate race. So the Democrats can’t complain about our asking for the same in a matter much more important to the nation as a whole.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You've got to be honest; if you can fake that, you've got it made. -- George Burns]

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:32 am 114. 888:

This is another unbalanced, irresponsible article by Moran.

Moran doesn’t mention that when McCain was asked by the liberal zealots to prove that he was a natural-born US citizen, McCain immediately provided his birth certificate which confirmed that although he was born overseas, it was because his American father (a Navy officer)was stationed overseas at the time.

Moran failed to mention that Obama’s lawyers worked feverishly to get Atty Berg’s lawsuit dismissed.

Moran failed to mention that Obama’s own Kenyan grandmother has stated that she and other relatives witnessed Obama’s birth in a Kenyan hospital.

Moran failed to mention that only one of Obama’s relatives from his mother’s side has come forward to state that he was born in Hawaii. This relative is his sister who named a hospital different from the one Obama said he was born in.

Bottom line: there are a lot of holes in Obama’s story. He could have easily ended this controversy months ago by simply showing the Certificate of Live Birth. Instead, he had to enlist the help of powerful DNC lawyers to do everything they can to stall and delay the federal court process. He ‘won’ the Berg suit only because the judge ruled Berg had no standing, rather than because Obama proved without a doubt that he was, indeed, a natural-born US citizen. Also, Harvard and Columbia continue to aid and abet in this strange cover-up of Obama’s past by hiding pertinent documents, such as his transcripts and health records. And, unfortunately, Obama will beat this latest inquiry and series of lawsuits because he and his supporters (including Moran, the Arianna Huffington of PJM) will continue to cover up for him and ridicule anyone questioning Obama’s mysterious history.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:40 am 115. Nuqueen1:

The more I read the more I am convinced the rabid RWingers are completely deranged.
Obama was born in Honolulu. That alone makes him a “natural Born” citizen.
His mom did not travel to Africa two months before giving birth. Why would she do that?
The birth announcement in the paper came from HOSPITAL records.
On the Indonesian school records showing “Barry Soetero” his birthplace is conspicuously shown as Honolulu, Hawaii.
The relative in Africa stated he was born in the USA (RRWgers always leave this part out)

The Dems won. THe GOP lost. Get over it and concentrate on the real problems facing this nation.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:40 am 116. Mike T:

But to prove Hofstadter’s point that the paranoid style is not limited to one side of the ideological spectrum, there is a movement being advanced by otherwise normal and rational people on the right to nullify the election last month using as a basis the preposterous notion that President-elect Barack Obama is not eligible for office because he was not born in the United States.

I’m perfectly willing to concede that Obama is a citizen, despite the issues raised about his background. All he has to do is come out and answer his critics. As politicians are fond of saying, if he has nothing to hide, he has nothing to fear. It shouldn’t take more than a few days of requesting and collecting records for him to throw this controversy onto the trash heap of American political history once and for all if his side is as straight-forward as you claim, Moran.

There’s a good reason why we shouldn’t allow any remotely legitimate doubts about the President Elect’s legitimacy when possible: he commands one of the most powerful positions in the history of politics and represents us before the world.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:41 am 117. Thinking Person:

Chuck….I agree and would like to amend my comment from “just publish the damned thing” to “just produce for analysis the damned thing”.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:41 am 118. Michael Pelletier:

=== “Dave” wrote:
FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.
=====

Those assertions are factually incorrect.

At the time Obama was born, the child of a US citizen and a non-citizen (Obama) was only considered a citizen if either born in the US, or if the US citizen parent had lived at least five years in the US after the age of 16. Since his mother was only 18, she could not in any way meet that criterion.

And Obama’s own paternal grandmother says he was born in Kenya.

So if he was, in fact, born in Kenya, he did not automatically gain US citizenship upon birth.

The simple answer to this question is to disclose the original birth certificate, but instead he had it put under seal. What’s up with that?

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:44 am 119. Robert:

What a big lie. The Governor nor the Health Dept officals never said that Obama’s original birth certificate said he was born in Hawaii, just stated that it was authentic. So why does he not just produce it at a new conference, or does Obama feel he is above the Constitution????????

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:46 am 120. Brian Richard Allen:

cfb: What “Republican” president? What “Republican” candidate for president?

Surely you’re not asking us to afford Republican status to either the current oligarchy-serving incumbent? Who, after being elected rapidly morphed into a “liberal,” and, just for starters, stupendously increased the feral gummint’s size and spending and debt, trashed the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights, ignored the ongoing criminal alien invasion and hostile colonization of our beloved fraternal republic — and who rehabilitated the recidivist, treasonous, lying, looting, thieving, mass-murdering, co-serial-rapist Cli’tons? And who leaves town having dealt the death blow to America’s financial and monetary exceptionalism, having seamlessly integrated our financial system into the Eurabian Neo-Soviet’s — and having put congress’s fascists and crypto-fascists in charge of the illegal, unlawful and un-Constitutional disbursement of, so far, more than Seven Trillion as yet neither created nor yet legally appropriated American Dollars! Surely not that “Republican?”

Nor yet, one prays and trusts, do you ask that we afford such status to the much-despised one-time North Vietnam and Soviet Union Military Intelligence Adviser and life-time RINO, Mr John “Reach Across the Aisle” (well, reach, anyway) Sidney McRainman?

Who as, sadly, does Mr Bush, bears witness to the fact that as in Shakespeare’s day there were no female actors and girly-boys played the females, these days there are no Republicans.

Nope. Sad to say.

The “Democrats’” very ‘toughest’ girly-boys play every “Republican” part.

The REPUBLICANS are here, now. And WE are asking the questions.

Got any answers?

Cat got your tongue?

And Zero’s too.

And the tongues, when it comes to straight answers, of every last one of poor pathetic Zero’s Hundreds of Billion Dollars worth of (mainly) foreign and (some) domestic puppeteers.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:49 am 121. Thinking Person:

Nuqueen1…..Easy enough to solve. Just have Obama tell his lawyers…..”Let them have my original birth certificate to prove I’m right! That’ll shut them up!” Why let this go all the way to the Supreme Court? Why not just produce it? Odd don’t you think? We’re supposed to listen to “officials” and ancient newspaper announcements and take that as proof. They won’t even take that as proof when I enroll my kids in public school! I think it’s legit unfortunately but I’m starting to think the crazies calling for all of this might not be so crazy after all. Obama, I’m afraid, is brining this on himself right now. Just provide the actual certificate and it’s done. Right?

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:54 am 122. James:

Joshua:

Re: Elephant in room

If I’m reading your post right, then you’re position is that the law, in fact, doesn’t matter. You’re saying even if the law says a man is not eligible to be president he should be sworn in anyway because he won an election? Let me ask this then. If that law doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be followed, what other laws should we just ignore?

Down that road lies anarchy.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:59 am 123. cfbleachers:

100 posts and really nobody has touched on how I would view the entirety of the subject.

This is a matter of curiosity for me, not much more. However, equating it with the 8 years of Bush derangement, Haliburton, blood for oil, Jews/Bush plotted the 9/11 attack…vs. asking for the original birth certificate, is not a compelling parallel or equivalency argument, Rick, my friend.

Oliver Stone has made a living (as has Michael Moore on a different level of depravity) of taking certain “facts” and then attempting to piece together or cobble together some “conclusions”.

It’s apparently a fun game in some quarters. Hell, Al Gore has done it with global warming to an extent. (after he invented the internet, which you hurt his feelings by not embracing right away…not sure about your embrace of his other conclusions, and inconvenient truths, though)

You see, Rick…in the absence of facts, evidence or in the void created by withholding of documentation, people tend to substitute their own brand of deductive logic and implant THEIR facts and cobble together an argument.

Even you. Heck, we all do it. You have substituted in the facts that assist you in arriving at the conclusion that makes you comfortable. It would be INSANE to think otherwise, right? I may agree with your conclusion, but not how you arrive at it. I may think your “substitute” facts or the ones that you use to cobble together your “conclusions”, are not strong enough or persuasive enough.

We are STILL bouncing around ideas about the JFK assassination and that happened decades ago. President-elect Obama’s win, is merely days old.

So, if Michael Moore and Oliver Stone and the whole blood for oil, Haliburton, Mossad/Bush plotted 9-11 crowd can have their fun, why be a killjoy? Let’s ask some Oliver Stone/Michael Moore type questions:

1)Did the paternal grandmother and/or others state that they witnessed the live birth in Kenya or did they not? If they did not and there is no such quote, we can move on to other things. If they did, why would they do such a thing? Are they conspiring to keep him from being President?

Perhaps it is a faulty memory, perhaps it is self-aggrandizement on a much larger scale. But it IS an oddity that they would announce such a thing and it carries SOME weight from an evidentiary standpoint, does it not?

2)Had a REPUBLICAN been running for office, which OTHER documents would have been researched, hunted down, uncovered, “exposed” long ago? Hell, Joe the Plumber wasn’t running for even a union steward position and HIS entire life was exposed in 15 minutes after he ASKED A QUESTION. The man running for President chose to blockade virtually every record of his schooling, wherein he may have applied for scholarships, grants in aid, internships, and the like…which may…or may not…have provided evidentiary clues into what HE believed was his right as a citizen or a foreigner.

There may be dozens of other reasons for not releasing those records, but would Oliver Stone or Michael Moore accept them?

3)The original birth “circumstances” are a bit murky as I understand it. Where are the hospital records. Which hospital are we talking about? Clearly, if the hospital records exist, we should be able to obtain them. Was it a difficult pregnancy? Who was the attending physician? I have not paid close attention to this entire mess, but I believe someplace there was a reference to two separate hospitals. I don’t know about this element, but is it worth further investigation at a minimum? Would Oliver Stone or Michael Moore leave it untouched?

4)How old was his mother? I read someplace that she was not yet 18, therefore…something or other. What is the PRECISE law related to a mother having given birth outside of the country and age? If she wished little Barry to be a US citizen and his father wished for little Jr. to be a citizen of Kenya…why not have the child in Kenya and bring him back to the US and file papers related to the birth?

There doesn’t have to be a nefarious reason, only one of pride in nationality that could explain WHY they wanted to try to “create” dual citizenship. Only, the vagaries of the law made them take a couple of missteps or shortcuts and not do it precisely according to their intent. This removes their mens rea for “conspiracy” before the fact. They innocently wished to create for him a tie to his roots on both ends.

The extended family found a way to send him to private school, this is a family that would have coughed up plane fare.

5)Rick…your argument that some government flunky said “I’ve looked at it, let’s move on”, is really rather ridiculous in terms of persuasion. This all may be JFK/Oliver Stone/Michael Moore/Al Gore inconvenient truthers fun and giggles…but THAT argument is patently absurd, even though I am one of your defenders and have often come to your side when you submit a controversial piece.

A government official from Chicago says that there is no graft or corruption, let’s move on…do you take that at face value?

Bill Clinton says “I did not have sexual relations with that woman”, do you take that at face value and move on?

Look, this may all be mental gymnastics and a JFK conspiracy “magic bullet”, wild goose chase…but THAT argument is about as weak as you can get.

6)As for the argument that the SCOTUS will NOT turn around the “will of the people”, I actually hope this turns out to be the nonsense that many believe it is. Let’s move on and get on with more important things once we find out the truth, once and for all.

But, the “will” of the people is a funny thing. How may folks “in the middle” who were on the fence…would have voted for Senator Obama had they believed this issue had legs? Enough to tip the scales?

I don’t know. Nobody knows. I don’t buy the argument that the “will” of the people would be the same necessarily. I hope I never find out.

To summarize, I think this is nothing more than a JFK conspiracy parlor game. It is not “derangement” any more than those other parlor games are “derangement”. Certainly not on the level of the last 8 years. But this issue does raise the spectre of how someone can run for an office of this magnitude with so many pieces of their resume’ blockaded behind vault doors. Now THAT’S an issue worth exploring. Oliver? Michael? Al? Any takers?

Didn’t think so.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:05 am 124. Chuck Pelto:

TO: cfb
RE: So….

How is it all of these opponents of Barack Obama are unable or unwilling to do what’s RIGHT? — cfb

….just because no one else you cite is asking the tough questions of Obama, we’re all supposed to be ’silent’?

What part of the Constitution of the United States requires that? Or is it something The One wants to implement and you’re just over-eager.

On the other foot…

…I don’t recall all those Democrat governors demanding where the WMDs in Iraq went. So why did the Dimocrats demand it?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ya gotta love those 'hypocrites'.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:10 am 125. Chris in Toronto:

A couple of things:
(1) Please, everyone, stop calling each other names. Respect gets respect. Name calling shows no respect and, while fun as hell, does nothing for your argument.
(2) Anybody remember the American Thinker article about Cloward-Piven?
Link: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html

Here’s a quote: “The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.”

I just ask everybody to please think about it!

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:16 am 126. Rotwang:

Chuck Pelto — PLEASE tell me you’re not seriously questioning the presence” of the word “laser” on a laser-printed COLB that no one has ever represented as anything BUT a laser-printed COLB generated, I believe, sometime post-2000?

You’re not going to win the Buckhead Award with that one.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:21 am 127. Fred:

“Oh, please. The level of talk about Obama is absolutely nothing to the garbage that has been spewing 24/7 for the last 8 years about Chimpy McHitlerBurton and Darth Cheney.”

really? I sure don’t recall anyone claiming that Bush was not a legitimate American – no one demanded HIS birth certificate. no one tried to UNDO the election – in fact, it was the Supreme Court that STOPPED the vote counting in Florida…Yes – the left was angry about that election – and yes – Bush was savaged by the left – but BECAUSE of his policies and his INABLILITY to articulate an intelligent sentence – not becuase of LIES about his religion, his up bringing or his nationality…

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:23 am 128. Fred:

James says:

“Re: Elephant in room

If I’m reading your post right, then you’re position is that the law, in fact, doesn’t matter. You’re saying even if the law says a man is not eligible to be president he should be sworn in anyway because he won an election? Let me ask this then. If that law doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be followed, what other laws should we just ignore?

Down that road lies anarchy.”

What nonsense – Obama has claimed he’s an American. The only Anarchy is coming from the LOSERS who are sifting through every arcane piece of immigration law to try to discredit this man. And what LAW are YOU referring to? There is no LAW that Obama need produce any official document to please his opponents – this is made up out of whole cloth. To suggest that our founders would want to see an election over turned because POLITICAL OPERATIVES and OPPONENTS are looking for trouble is insane. It would be one thing if Obama came to America as an adult and hid that information – it’s quite another trying to determine if Obama’s mother was in the country long enough when he was born based on laws at that time – or if his American Mother or his being born in America is NOT enough to make him American enough for his opponents or if Kenya was actually british in 1961 or if it was African or if…

this is not Anarchy – this is the losers trying to overturn an election…

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:30 am 129. Robert Hurley:

Chuck:

No guts to bet or you don’t really beleive this nonsense enough to lay down a bet

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:33 am 130. Jeff Weimer:

CTN:

First line at the cornell website:

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

Here’s the link to determine NATIONALS but not citizens:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001408—-000-.html

So it’s pretty solid that Obama was a citizen at birth – Hawaii was a state in 1961. This applies despite having a non-citizen father.

Rebuttal to Brian Richard Allen:

Yes, the requirements are listed in the constitution, but the definition of “Natural Born Citizen” as applied is in these statutes.

As for his possible dual-citizenship, the law is silent so it would not forbid him from serving as President. He still is a citizen of the US even if he is also a citizen of another country. He would lose his US citizenship under the circumstances listed below:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001481—-000-.html

Notice it pays attention to a person being 18. Obama was back in the states before that time. He had no opportunity to renounce his citizenship before that, if that is what you are alluding to with his Indonesian passport. There is also no record that he formally renounced his US citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:34 am 131. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Fred
RE: Claims

Obama has claimed he’s an American — Fred

Yeah.

And Dan Rather ‘claimed’ he had a disparaging letter from President Bush’s Air National Guard commander.

What’s your point? That you can trust a politican at their word? How dumb are you anyway?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[My favorite mythical creature? The honest politician.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:37 am 132. cfbleachers:

Just so everyone knows…I am not cfb.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:38 am 133. misanthropicus:

TO: all Soeterotrolls

I am glad that I can inform you that regardless the outcome of today’s Supreme Court conference concerning mister Soetero’s status, the battering ram’s momentum keeps increasing.
About one hour ago even the CNN ticker/video discussed this, previously taboo matter (dissmissivly and unclearly), and their kicking in nothing but removes this serious issue from the previous obscurity to daylight legitimacy as issue.
Also, we can view their take as the future direction on which the Obamatrolls and the liberals will try to railroad/deflect the discussion – relax, the man was elected, so now it doesn’t matter whether he was or not eligible (line of thought showing much concern for constitution, isn’t it?)
Anyway, good news for the country, bad news for Obamatrolls -

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:44 am 134. Chris in Toronto:

#132 cfbleachers:
I knew!

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:47 am 135. Commonsense:

Let me know when Obama breaks his first 100 laws, then we’ll talk. Until then ODS and BDS are two completely different animals (in the sense that BDS is grounded in reality)….

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:47 am 136. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rotwang
RE: The Laser Certificate

PLEASE tell me you’re not seriously questioning the presence” of the word “laser” on a laser-printed COLB that no one has ever represented as anything BUT a laser-printed COLB… — Rotwang

You REALLY should do more research before making statements like that.

Here’s the Obama Campaign Official Site about the document proffered as Obama’s Birth Certificate.

It says on it above the document image….”Barack Obama’s Official Birth Certificate”. So, you see, you are mistaken when you say that the document I’m seeing has never been presented as anything other than a Certificate of Live Birth. They called it his “Official Birth Certificate”.

Maybe you should contact them to make a correction.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. -- Benjamin Franklin]

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:48 am 137. susan:

Laugh award of this post goes to

FRED

“really? I sure don’t recall anyone claiming that Bush was not a legitimate American”

LOL, could it be because his mother didn’t s***w around with exotic partners worldwide?

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:50 am 138. Jeff Weimer:

In my opinion, all the calls from my fellow ‘wingers for him to produce his birth certificate is equal to Andrew Sullivan’s trig-trutherism. It’s just as small-minded and petty. If you have an allegation, support it with proof, don’t demand proof from the object of your allegation and then point to their ignorance to you as that “proof” your allegation is true.

Why do we want to believe the oft-repeated claim that some grandmother said he was born in Kenya? Where is the original source? Do we have her on tape? If not, does the reporter have credibility? Does it actually exist, or is it just an urban legend? Why do we believe that over the “certificate of live birth” issued earlier this year? True it is not the *actual* honest to god birth certificate, but it couldn’t be issued without the existence of a “vault” certificate.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:50 am 139. Tex Taylor:

I didn’t read thru this, and personally mostly agree with the author about this silly pursuit. But I do have one question, if somebody could tell me for sure, that does bother me.

Obama and I are approximately the same age, with me being a few months older. I had to register for selective service. I have heard that Obama did not register. Is that is true, why wasn’t Obama required to register like the rest of us? I guarantee you for a man that is Obama’s age, it would have been required.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:51 am 140. tim maguire:

On my, where to begin with this silly article?

I agree with the Moran that this is ALMOST certainly a false issue, but he does our side no favors with half-baked arguments that he thinks he can turn into conclusive proof by adding excalamation points. A newpaper announcement? Does Moran even know what “evidence” means? There isn’t a court in the country that would even admit it into evidence, let alone find it pursuasive. What motivation could the parents have? How about proudly announcing to their community the birth of their son? Jesus, if you think this is evidence on a constitutional level, you really should turn your computer off again.

The bottom line here is that the constitution has three requirements for the president, of which getting a majority of electoral votes is only one. Unfortunately, there is no mechanism for satisfying the other two. But no sane person could deny that there should be and I think the supreme court is the perfect place for this to play out.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:54 am 141. robotech master:

Cedarford again with the massive lies and smoke and mirrors…. George Romney never ran for President…. he ran for the Republican nomination… Just as Lowell Weicker did the same…. Add in last time I checked the Constitution didn’t forbid ppl from running in party nomination… and even further it doesn’t prevent anyone from running at all… The Democrats could run their dream ticket of hitler and stalin, and WIN and it would be completely legal as far as I know and the Constitution states…. The Constitution states that they can’t be President not that they can’t run in a party or even a general election… So once again strawman complete and simple.

9/11 truthers like you and moron need to sit downy… like every truther be it 9/11 or gitmo or global warming or obama birth cert…. theirs a huge pile of scientific evidence that disproves your claims and yet you not only refuse to accept the fact that you wrong but you put up fake science, models, and history. Use smoke and mirror to avoid the truth and call everyone crazy because they don’t share your twisted views.

To Rick Moron.

Its nice to see you quickly change to more Dem talking points… of course had you bother to read the comments or done any research into this matter you would have known better… you were debunked before you even posted comment number 41(try reading say comment 15 or any comments for that matter)… in fact your little talking points provides more proof that obama is instead NOT A US CITIZEN… and I QUOTE “Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.” Note has it doesn’t say he a US CITIZEN but only that he has a valid birth cert…. foreigners have valid birth certs as well….

I find it funny how not a single post made by any of the obama truthers have any facts or counters to any arguments presented in comments 15-18… just alot of name calling and in typical truther fashion no facts expect of course the “WERE TELLING YOU HES A CITIZEN AND THATS GOOD ENOUGH.”(or 9/11 was bush’s fault or global warming is man made etc, etc, etc)

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:00 am 142. Jeff Weimer:

Chuck:

And those who disputed it provided enough evidence to warrant an investigation, which ultimately led to Rather and Mapes leaving CBS in disgrace (see http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com). There is no evidence here to warrant any investigation, there’s enough to disprove the allegations at the start.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:00 am 143. Ben Florsheim:

Re: Legal Lie

The link to the U.S. citizenship statute above is a deliberate LIE – of course swaddled in comforting assurances that this is “objective”, “from Cornell” etc.

It is a lie because this is NOT the versuib if the law that was in force AT THE TIME (in 1961) when Obama was born.

Under the earlier version of the law in force in 1961, a child born outside the U.S. to ONE U.S. parent (married to a non-U.S. citizen) ONLY acquired citizenship at birth if the U.S. parent had lived in the U.S. for 5 years after reaching 14. Obama’s mother was 18 at the time of his birth – you do the math.

The 5 year rule does NOT apply if the U.S. parent was single. This is why Obama’s campaign made Michelle suddenly “blurt out” during an interview that Obama’s mother was “very single” at the time of his birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:01 am 144. Peter the Sub Guy:

127. Fred wrote:
really? I sure don’t recall anyone claiming that Bush was not a legitimate American – no one demanded HIS birth certificate.

Peter responds: No one had to DEMAND his birth certificate. He provided it when he ran for the various offices he has held, not locked it up in a vault somewhere and hired three law firms to keep that vault from being opened.

Fred wrote:
no one tried to UNDO the election

Peter responds incredulously:
What?!? Are you KIDDING?!? Al Gore and his whole pack of blood-sucking lawyers tried to UNDO the 2000 election. ‘Lets count these Gore votes, but lets ignore those Bush votes. Let’s allow undocumented alien votes to count, but no way we’re letting absentee ballots from American servicemen and women overseas be looked at.’ Gore and his ilk tried to do everything in their power to overthrow the 2000 election and STILL lost!

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:06 am 145. Ben Florsheim:

Re: Legal Lie (CORRECTED)

The link to the U.S. citizenship statute above is a deliberate LIE – of course swaddled in comforting assurances that this is “objective”, “from Cornell” etc.

It is a lie because this is NOT the version of the law that was in force AT THE TIME (in 1961) when Obama was born.

Under the earlier version of the law in force in 1961, a child born outside the U.S. to ONE U.S. parent (married to a non-U.S. citizen) ONLY acquired citizenship at birth if the U.S. parent had lived in the U.S. for 5 years after reaching 14. Obama’s mother was 18 at the time of his birth – you do the math.

The 5 year rule does NOT apply if the U.S. parent was single. This is why Obama’s campaign made Michelle suddenly “blurt out” during an interview that Obama’s mother was “very single” at the time of his birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:06 am 146. Thinking Person:

Tex Taylor…..You really want to open up his not registering for the select service now? We can’t even get the left to want to see his original birth certificate! They probably have a gum wrapper somewhere with OBAMA printed on it in crayon as proof that YES he did register all of those years ago. Trust me Tex…you’re just setting yourself up for some tin foil hat comments. I have to agree with you though. Unfortunately there are fewer of us than there are of them.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:08 am 147. Peter the Sub Guy:

128. Fred wrote:
And what LAW are YOU referring to? There is no LAW that Obama need produce any official document to please his opponents – this is made up out of whole cloth.

Peter responds: I believe the law he was referring to is called the CONSTITUTION of the United States! You know, the one that says to be President a person must be a ‘natural born citizen of the United States.’ The law Obama has yet to prove to a great many people that he is in obeyance with.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:09 am 148. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I read a theory from someone that makes sense to me. Obama, Axelrod and the others aren’t producing the BC intentionally although they know it’s authentic and he is eligible to be President. The reasons for this are:

1) It deflects attention away from other more serious issues about Obama including how he got $750 million in campaign donations, how board members at ACORD are accusing people of extortion and how Obama’s previous law firm is going after the people making the accusations, how we have a President who refuses to show us his complete medical records or senate records, how he won’t let us talk to any woman he was involved with prior to Michelle or anyone who knew him in college, how the cousin of Saddam wired Rezko money for the empty lot next to his house. These are all much more important that the BC but Obama and Axelrod know that if they refuse to provide the BC we will spend the next four years focusing on the BC instead of all the other issues.

2) Right before the next election Obama and Axelrod will produce the original BC, the name of the hospital and the doctor so that everyone will think Obama has been a victim because everyone unfairly assumed he was lying.

I think Obama and Axelrod are both people with really serious issues and I’m saying that as a Democrat – I believe they enjoy these games and they’re doing it on purpose.

“Look at how the stupid Americans waste time on this. They don’t deserve respect so let’s keep playing these games with them.”

They need to be told to either provide the BC immediately and put an end to speculation so they can’t continue this for another four years.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:10 am 149. robotech master:

To 29. 24AheadDotCom:

For the love of god man step of and claim some ownage….

http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008184.html

Proof beyond any doubt that obama could have been born in kenya and still have a US birth cert… and one that is hard to tell if he was born in kenya….

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

AND I QUOTE

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

Now I’d like to see the truthers counter that….

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:18 am 150. Jeff Weimer:

Ben Florshiem:

But he was born IN the United States, Hawaii having become a state in 1959…. Makes the rest of your argument moot.

Oh, and show me YOUR reference, I’d like to see it.

FWIW, I picked the Cornell reference not only because it came up near the top in Google, but it’s also a prominent law school, and I should think they have the proper statutes posted correctly.

Oh, and this law was passed in 1940, so it IS the law that applied in 1961. You can look below to see that, and see that the section you refer to has not been changed.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00000001—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:24 am 151. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Getting Thinks….

There is no evidence here to warrant any investigation, there’s enough to disprove the allegations at the start. — Jeff Weimer

…bass-ackward, Jeff.

The point here IS that ‘there is NO evidence’ that he is a natural-born citizen.

Or if there IS any such evidence, PLEASE provide it. In the form of a bona fide, signed and sealed Birth Certificate. Not this tripe offered in the link I offered at item #136 (above).

And, based on what I just read at item #150 from robotech master, that business about how Certificates of Live Birth are generated in Hawaii is pretty damning to the item offered by the link at item #136.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:35 am 152. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Excellent Research….

….that, about the Hawaiian Statute relating to the issuance of a Certificate of Live Birth.

Do they have a similar statute describing WHAT all is supposed to be on an official Birth Certificate and under what circumstances such is to be issued?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....But some people are not going to like it.....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:40 am 153. Ian Thorpe:

It is not unreasonable to ask a man who says in his autobiography that he was born a British Colonial Citizen (which if true would, I am told, disqualify him from becoming President) to provide proof that he is actually a “natrual born citizen.” That Mr Obama and his campaign managers have chosen the course of trying to hide behind legal technicalities rather than simply producing the document that would settle the issue can lead to only one conclusion.

If the issue is not settled however it will haunt his presidency. This is not a trivial issue such as boffing a night club singer or getting blow jobs off a rent boy (oops, pardon. Tgat one just slipped our Mr. Obama) but of a man who is a proven liar on many issues seeking to evade questions on a contitutionally vital issue.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:47 am 154. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Derangement, Indeed

I think I understand what’s going on in the heads of the likes of Rick Moran and a number of others here.

They’re projecting on US, who wish to know whether or not Obama is a natural-born citizen of the United States, the derangement they felt about Bush and Palin.

It’s really a shame that they have to accuse US of acting as they do by merely asking for a simple piece of official paper.

The longer the document is not produced, the more evidence that it doesn’t exist in the first place. And the more suspect any document produced will generate that it is a fraud.

It would have been SOOOOOooooo much simpler if it had been produced when first asked for. And I’m wondering if there is a gross loop-hole in the Federal Election Commission’s management of elections that allowed this travesty to occur in the first place.

Why wouldn’t the FEC require the person running for the office of the President of the United States submit a bona fide birth certificate?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse. -- James Madison]

P.S. Or in this instance, possibly idiocy…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:49 am 155. Peter the Sub Guy:

A little OT:

Just wanted to say Hi, Chuck. Been a while since our postings have crossed on the same thread.

~Peter

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:52 am 156. robotech master:

Thats all to 24AheadDotCom

I knew some kind of law like that existed however I could never find it… If he did or whoever did it likely likely weeks of eye bleeding, paper pushing torture to find that law…

To sum it up basically obama could have been born on the moon and hawaii would still give him a birth cert…

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:55 am 157. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: How Odd

I went to the Hawaiian Revised Statutes page and searched on the term “Birth Certificate”.

But for some strange reason, of all the items that came up—41 if them—none of them I clicked on to read are ‘found’. Every one of them I clicked on are getting a 404 error.

Maybe they’re just overwhelmed with requests for the state statute regarding such at this time. But then I would think the error code would be something other than “404 – The page cannot be found”, suggesting that the page has been ‘moved’ or is ‘temporarily not available’.

Definitely ‘different’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Anybody know someone who works in a Hawaiian hospital administration section and could tell the rest of US what the state statutes are for preparing a birth certificate?

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:57 am 158. Jim:

Annenberg Public Policy Center, the parent company of FactcCheck – isn’t this the same Annenberg organization that gave a multimillion dollar educational grant for urban schools in Chicago that was administered by Obama and Bill Ayers?

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:07 am 159. Tex Taylor:

Thinking Person,

I have to agree with you though. Unfortunately there are fewer of us than there are of them.

I don’t disagree with you about the tinfoil comments. I’m just leery of Republicans overplaying their hand again, providing ammunition to the loons.

It just seems since no one can get a handle on this U.S. citizenship and birth certificate, doing a little search of the selective service database would be an easy manner for someone to make determination for proof of citizenship.

If I’m not mistaken, Selective Service is an independent agency responsible for implementing a military draft, and as a U.S. Citizen being born in 1961, Obama would have been required to register in 1979.

I’m no attorney, thank God, but it seems the registration would be a matter of public record. If there is no record, then I would like our President Elect to explain why he was excused, while all the rest of us minions his age were required to stand in line at the post office.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:10 am 160. Nuqueen1:

Bottom line:
A BC has been produced, verified, and validated. Officials in Hawaii have vouched for PE Obama’s birth there.
As with anchor babies, all you have to do is be born here to be a natural born citizen. The RRWingers are in K/R’s first stage of grief-denial. Nothing will satify them, any attempt will be deemed a fraud. No hope for them.
They have mass Obama Derangement Syndrome infections.
No cure exists. Infected persons will self-destruct in 5-4-3-2…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:16 am 161. cfbleachers:

Chris in Toronto…thanks!

Some of the above arguments go to the “burden of proof”. The first burden, of course, belongs to the candidate running for office. Not his opponents. If he provides evidence of all of the fundamental requirements, and his opponents wish to challenge their validity, the burden shifts.

To put it in layman’s terms: The first burden of proof belongs to President-elect Obama. He MUST provide the elements necessary to qualify for the office. There is no legitimate way to circumvent this issue. The burden is his, not his opponents’ burden.

However, once he provides each element, and it is accepted, if his opponents wish to challenge it, they must bring forth evidence that the element should not stand. It is their burden to show that the element provided does not meet the standard for acceptance or has raised a material issue of invalidity.

As for a “legitimate” birth certificate…I’m now less interested in that (which can be manufactured) and I am more interested in whether Stanley Ann Durham and/or Barack Obama Sr. traveled to Kenya on or about the dates in question. Are there no records of air travel? Passport use? Hotel stays?

I am more interested in the myriad of applications, forms, documents that one submits throughout a lifetime in Jakarta, traveling to Pakistan or Indonesia, student loans, whereby place of birth, citizenship, travel status and the like may have been submitted for purposes of gaining more favorable treatment.

If there is a consistency of declaration of US citizenship, in instances where it would be disfavorable to do so, that would be SOME proof of acting in a manner consistent with US citizenship. (not COMPLETELY dispositive, of course…in our “JFK magic bullet” analogy…this could be in furtherance of ACTING as a US citizen, even though technically never perfecting the process)

If there is an INCONSISTENCY in declaring US citizenship, this would be SOME evidence of acting in a manner that tended to acknowledge the lack of perfecting the process. (although not dispositive of the issue, if someone wanted to “game the system” and use a foreign citizenship to gain more favorable treatment.

I suspect, (without knowing) that Columbia, Harvard, certain government officials, perhaps some enterprising entrenched media members…already know what might be contained within those documents that make them necessary to seal and hide from prying eyes.

What seems certain, is that nobody wants to win a Pulitzer by exposing anything damaging within them…and there is no Dan Rather, Green Helmet guy, Mary Mapes, Jamil Hussein, Jason Blair, …type “investigative reporting” taking place trying to track down the “public needs to know” hidden information.

The breathless and panting “fake but accurate” NEED to expose some obscure document related to some useless incident, related to some tangentially and superficially hyped up importance of air national guard service…was chased like a hound on the scent of a rabbit.

But for a CONSTITUTIONAL issue, related to fundamental qualification to even RUN for office…the same breathless, panting blue tick hounds seem quite satisfied to lounge on the carpet, snoring and occasionally rolling over waiting for their bellies to be scratched.

For my purposes, the real issue is the double standard. If the first set of facts (and even worse, the Joe the Plumber fact pattern) sets these dogs in motion, and the second one doesn’t…shines a light on the REAL conspiracy. The conspiracy of silence and double standards in the entrenched media.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:20 am 162. ew:

Agreeing with a lot of the other comments above.. this DOES seem like something really easy to prove that the leftist illuminati could do easily.. if they were able.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:22 am 163. cfbleachers:

One last thing. This “Annenberg” tie in every time another leftist gets caught with his hand in some cookie jar, as if it is a “get out of jail free” card…is simply a canard.

Walter Annenberg “connectivity” is not a free pass for every leftist misdeed. I really could give a rat’s red rear end that Annenberg had some close friendship with Ronald Reagan and now some organization that bears his name is “doing X” or “promoting Y” and THEREFORE….you can’t say that it is not advancing a cause that non-leftists can take issue with…BECAUSE…”Annenberg was a friend of Reagan”.

What utter nonsense.

Ronald Reagan Jr. had closer ties to Ronald Reagan than Annenberg and the son takes positions that his father would not. This “nexus” argument is frail and phony and needs to be gutted and disposed of with yesterday’s trash.

Walter Annenberg is NOT promoting any of these ideologies. He is not advocating them. And whatever they are, they stand or fall on their own merit. Framing the issue with the protective shell of Annenberg being friends with Reagan…is a canard. I call BS on it, here and now.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:27 am 164. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Tex Taylor
RE: The Draft

I’m no attorney, thank God, but it seems the registration would be a matter of public record. If there is no record, then I would like our President Elect to explain why he was excused, while all the rest of us minions his age were required to stand in line at the post office. — Tex Taylor

An interesting idea, that. However, if it doesn’t exist, don’t be surprised to get the same song-and-dance routine from Obama and the Obamabots that we’ve been getting over the Birth Certificate.

And then….would you begin to ’suspect’ that something is rotten in the state of Union?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:27 am 165. robotech master:

To Tex taylor

Their has been some debate about obama’s selective service info you should be able to do a google search on it. However it is also up for debate somewhat… Some claim he filled out his info on time others claim he did it late… as far as I know the selective service database has neither confirmed or denied anything on the issue….

It would be nice to know however its not in the Constitution, so for now I’d just like the big issues dealt with after that if obama turns out to be a coward well thats later down the road.

To Jim

Factcheck is know for having very very good writers… but little in the way of facts. They mostly write op-ed pieces with some minor facts and try to confuse readers with writing style. The case in point of obama birth cert… they write a op-ed piece with some new pictures that “disprove” 1 or 2 of about 7 listed(and 50+ unlisted). They show pictures of this and try to claim that they are experts and thus in turn while they couldn’t disprove the other 5(to 50+) issues its good enough… Basically they took better pictures or upgraded from a 12 year old photoshopper to a 17 year old photoshopper…

The pictures were reviewed and it was found these picture(the new ones) also had issues/signs of photoshopping. Claim of fake is support by 10,000+ words detailing everything including tons of pictures… the factcheck op-ed is a few hundred words with 5 pictures….

This is how I look at it… factcheck’s “fact check” amounts to a middle schoolers op-ed piece… vs the claim of fact which is done in a scientific, detailed college professor/researcher manner. While it, the claim of fake could be wrong(and it could be because its based on pictures… since obama refuses to release the info/docs). It is 100x more believable then some piss ant op-ed piece by a bunch of middle schoolers…

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:39 am 166. Chris in Toronto:

Right on, cfbleachers! Right! On!

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:47 am 167. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Indicators

It would be nice to know however its not in the Constitution, so for now I’d just like the big issues dealt with after that if obama turns out to be a coward well thats later down the road. — robotech master

I would suggest that the draft records might be another ‘indicator’ of something. Perhaps even that he is not a citizen at all.

What did the Selective Service require in the way of documentation when you registered back then?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:48 am 168. zanne:

Reports are $12.00 could of cleared this whole mystery up. But, he has spent a million to keep it sealed. Why? I also wonder if he didn’t use a foreign student declaration to get college aid money. I am an average taxpaying citizen and just want to unseal all of his records. What is he hiding from us? Why?

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:55 am 169. Marauder:

I have absolutely no opinion on whether Obama’s been truthful about his place of birth or not. I just think it’s a little weird that, given all the controversy, he hasn’t done something to prove beyond a doubt that he was born in Hawaii and not Kenya. If someone tells me I’m a liar and I have something to prove that they’re wrong and I’m telling the truth, I produce it immediately.

Maybe he was born in Hawaii. Okay, can he prove that to us at least so everyone can move on? The question of where he was born is crucial to whether he meets the qualifications to be President; it’s not exactly inconsequential.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:55 am 170. Tex Taylor:

robotech,

Thank you for the information.

It would be nice to know however its not in the Constitution, so for now I’d just like the big issues dealt with after that if obama turns out to be a coward well thats later down the road.

My bone of contention doesn’t even really address cowardice. I suspect Obama pragmatic enough that even if he is a draft dodging coward, like most politicians, he’d have no problem sending someone else to defend the country.

No, my concerns are (1) It’s the law; (2) the respective consequences of not registering.

And according to their website, two of those consequences are:

(A) CITIZENSHIP
The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship, if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday and was required to register.

(B) FEDERAL JOBS
A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:56 am 171. B Dubya:

I don’t think the citizenship thing is going to go anywhere.
Remember, folks, Republicans tend to kill foreign enemies at wholesale rates, while Democrats kill US citizens at retail. (Well, since LBJ, anyway. FDR really went retail on Japan and Germany.).
If this keeps up, after the inaguration, we will see a US body count that will make Slick Willie look like a rank amateur. All those nasty pockets of wrongthink.
But please, please, make Shrillary Rodham Critter the Secretary of State. And, Hillary, take Chuck (not Pelto, he’s not properly indoctrinated) with you.
The rest of us better hunker down and try to ride this out.

Remember. It doesn’t have to be right, it doesn’t have to be true, it just has to be policy. (Pelto, take a quarter and go make a down payment on a sense of humor. It will serve you better than sputtering for the next 4 years.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:04 pm 172. Rob M.:

Okay, I read this article twice and I still think to myself, What a joke1 That whole setup about how this guy never used the internet before 2004 was almost amusing, like I’m going to read that and think to myself, wow, here’s somebody totally outside the box… an old school kind of guy… speaking my language, I really identify with him!!

Like I said, almost amusing, save for the fact that the time I spent reading it is time I’ll never get back. The fact is, this article could be written by anybody possessing the vast knowledge required to type “google.com” into their browser’s address bar. I commend Mr. Moran for finding the strength and wherewithal.

Still, the matter of reason does not escape Mr. Moran’s piece. Although the article does accurately define the conspiracy theorists’ failure to answer the “why”, the article itself features that very flaw. To what end is this information useful, aside from a childish “told you so” attitude? How does this article stimulate me, the reader, in a positive sense? Is stirring debate amongst a mindless internet population of moot opinion somehow supposed to enhance the human experience?

Say whatever you will, you’re only saying it. Only by doing are things done. Remember, it’s the small things in life that define the biggest degree of character- that somebody would deny their own name speaks more volume than their proof of citizenship. Using nominalizations, (deceptive motivation through the act of using verbs as nouns, i.e., Change America Needs) simply points to how easily people are manipulated and willing to displace blame, (i.e. Americans Need TO change.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:04 pm 173. robotech master:

All true and good point however in this link http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_did_n.html.

You see their is debate… however one funny thing about it is if his birth cert is released under a different name then this will be a major issue because clearly that is proof that he faked it(Selective service)(unless he changed his name before his 18th birthday which is a bit hard to believe but possible.)

So its still comes down to the birth cert being the key…

Heres another link with some videos/interviews on the topic.

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2008/11/obama-selective-service-registration-another-obama-record-another-question/

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:14 pm 174. Daily Pundit » Oh, Blow It, Rick:

[...] Pajamas Media » Yes, Virginia, There Is Obama Derangement Syndrome That’s why the whole birth certificate mess just goes to show that the only true bipartisanship in America today is wild, unreasoning hate for one’s political foes. [...]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:20 pm 175. Jeff Weimer:

153. Chuck Pelto:

But you predicate this on the assumption he WASN’T born here – where’s *your* proof? You make the allegation, the burden is on you.

And really, don’t you think this would have been brought out in the PRIMARIES, especially as close as Hillary fought? C’mon, if her legal experts couldn’t find anything, do you think you can?

My child, born in the USA, has a “certificate of live birth”. Based solely on that document, you couldn’t tell if they were “natural born citizens” or not.

Also at section 1401 for those of you pointing to the “5 years rule, but over 14 and she was 18 so it doesn’t count”, only two of those five years had to be after 14, see (g). This was in effect in 1961. It was actually easier (no age and time restrictions) before noon (EST), May 24, 1934, see (h).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:21 pm 176. malclave:

why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.?

Answer is simple. Time travel.

Remember Rathergate? Obviously, there’s a functioning time machine out there, that was used to take a modern PC and printer back in time so Bush’s commander could write that CYA memo.

The same time machine was used to plant this “birth announcement”.

And on another topic, I really should go get those prescriptions refilled.

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:30 pm 177. misanthropicus:

RE # 149/Anonymous/ Obama/Axelrod letting the BC mater become a scandal in order to deflect other, more serious issues…

Conspiracy theories notwithstanding, there might be something in what you mention – after all, firemen sometimes need to start fires in some places in order to remove the flammable material from the way of an existing fire storm.

1) At a smaller scale, Obama/Axelrod used this strategy at least once: remember when the Wright scandal hit the fan? Well, exactly that morning Obama called for a press conference to tell “everything” about Tony Rezko, and he got things the way he wanted, I tell you.

2) Also, this false target strategy was used very effective by Clinton/Carville during the Starr inqury: since the tape with Clinton being interviewed by Starr’s people couldn’t be made public for a few days, Carville’s minions took advantage of his time gap and spread the rumors the Clinton acted awfully, yelled at the prosecutors, had to leave the room for ten minutes to collect himself, and overall, his peformance was beyond damning. The Clintonistas were devastated, and on the other hand the reps were triumphant – then the tape was released and Clinton appeared, gracious, witty, friendly, cooperative… what a nice guy! And those republican creeps give him hard time!
This mascarade proved to work well, and I wouldn’t be surprised that this is the line Obama/Axelrod go on – because unless there REALLY is a problem with that damn paper, there simply is no reason not to make it available for scrutiny.
We’ll see; best regards -

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:35 pm 178. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rob M.
RE: A Diversionary Tactic

….the [Moran] article does accurately define the conspiracy theorists’ failure to answer the “why”, the article itself features that very flaw. — Rob M.

The ‘why’ is only a side issue and subject to a goodly number of speculations. The whole thing, as mentioned numerous times here and elsewhere, could be resolved simply enough.

And, if there is no such beastie as a genuine Obama Hawaiian issued Birth Certificate, I’m SURE he’d explain it under the ‘quizzing’ of the FBI.

Try to focus on the principle matter. In the military, we refer to it as ‘maintenance of the objective’. [Don't we, cedarford. Or were you ever a 'combat arms' type?]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Keep your eye on the objective. Do not be distracted by diversions.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:39 pm 179. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Just an odd thought….

….this could come out as more significant than the Johnson-MacNamara conspiracy regarding the bogus Gulf of Tonkin Incident, that got US into Viet Nam with a vengeance.

Hey! Rick Moran, et al.

And you were suggesting that there are no such thinks as US Government ‘conspiracies’?

When were you born anyway? Yesterday?

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:42 pm 180. Has a Hawaii Birth Certificate:

I was born in Hawaii in 1958 at the Kapeolani Maternity Hospital and I’m looking, as I write this, at my Certicate of Live Birth (has that old mimeographed ‘black on white’ type background etc).

In addition to the ’standard’ stuff of my name, date of birth, and location of birth, there are the signatures of both my mother and the attending physician, as well as the signature of the local Registrar (so that makes ‘3′ ‘verifications’ attesting that I was, in fact, born at the time/place listed on the form. And the language surrounding the attending physician states ” I certify that that this child was born alive on the hour and date specified above.”

Finally there is the signature of the President of the Board of Health and the Registrar General (can’t tell by looking but I’m assuming the last two are ‘form’ signatures.

There is no place where religion is entered on the form, just for the record.

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:42 pm 181. misanthropicus:

Re #170/zanne: [...] I also wonder if he didn’t use a foreign student declaration to get college aid money. I am an average taxpaying citizen and just want to unseal all of his records. What is he hiding from us? Why? [...]

zanne, and what about $750 million gotten under false pretense?

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:42 pm 182. robotech master:

177. Jeff Weimer:

“But you predicate this on the assumption he WASN’T born here – where’s *your* proof? You make the allegation, the burden is on you.”

I’m sorry you must be confused… if you apply for a drivers license does the DMV have to prove your not eligible? How about to get a loan… how about social security… how about insert hundreds of daily things…

The burden of proof solely rests on barack obama and no one else… He is required by law to show proof…

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:55 pm 183. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Has a Hawaii Birth Certificate
RE: Good to Hear….

….from you.

Great information you provide US.

An additional question or so:

[1] Is there a ‘raised’ seal on the certificate? Or an ink one? Something applied by the ‘local registrar’?
[2] Any foot-prints?
[3] Is there any indication of the ethnicity of the parents? I notice that in the document offered by the Obama campaign, it lists the father as “African”. As opposed to “Negro”, “Negroid”, or “Black”. I found the use of “African” for the father as ‘odd’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:59 pm 184. Peter the Sub Guy:

177. Jeff Weimer wrote:
But you predicate this on the assumption he WASN’T born here – where’s *your* proof? You make the allegation, the burden is on you.

Peter responds: Actually, the allegation is based on a number of so-called facts that have come out (conveniently) after the nomination was in the bag, like Obama’s own grandmother saying she was present for his birth in KENYA. His own book talking of his travels to Pakistan and his childhood in Indonesia when, as the laws existed atthe time, is would have been very, vey diffucukt if not impossible for a US citizen to travel or study in those countries. These are the ‘facts’ that prompt the doubt now surrounding The One. That and the fact he is working so hard, and spending so much money, to hide SOMETHING. We all just want to know what that SOMETHING is?

Jeff also wrote: My child, born in the USA, has a “certificate of live birth”. Based solely on that document, you couldn’t tell if they were “natural born citizens” or not.

Peter responds: And I’m sure if someone questioned your daughter’s citizenship, you would provide that proof in documentation. Or would you spend millions and hire three law firms to keep that info hidden because you feel it’s nobody’s business?

Also at section 1401 for those of you pointing to the “5 years rule, but over 14 and she was 18 so it doesn’t count”, only two of those five years had to be after 14, see (g). This was in effect in 1961. It was actually easier (no age and time restrictions) before noon (EST), May 24, 1934, see (h).

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:01 pm 185. Peter the Sub Guy:

Darn it. I meant to delete that last paragraph.
And I noticed after it posted that a few typos made it through.
So sorry.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:09 pm 186. Jeff Weimer:

robotech:

No, all proof currently extant points to his birth in the US. You allege he wasn’t – you have to prove THAT, he doesn’t. This is not the DMV – nice red herring though.

Besides, there’s enough people arguing his citizenship who don’t have a vested interest in him, from the Republican Governor of Hawaii on down to me. Ask Robert Hurley, we’ve jousted a few times about Obama, I’m not a fan. This is pure BS, we’ve got better things to do like make sure his administration isn’t a disaster than argue about this. It only makes us look like the unhinged left after the 2000 election, or like 9/11 truthers or even Andrew Sullivan over Trig Palin (actually close to this contretemps – birth records and all).

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:20 pm 187. wavynavy:

For what it’s worth, Mr. Moran, I’m tired of getting lectures from so-called conservatives ( Brooks, Noonan, Buckley come to mind), about matters that are important to some of us that are afraid that the hood is being pulled over our eyes. I only have to look at the duplicitous campaign that was just waged by the left and the Big Media on behalf of this phony dhimmicrat to believe that there just might be an issue here. As many have already stated here and in many other blog comments, why can’t we just get a resolution to this question? I think that I smell a rat when something so basic has to be argued for months. I have followed the story and have yet to hear an answer. How is it that you actually know that answer and so many of us do not?

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:22 pm 188. J. Rockford:

Why does Rick Moran refer to people who are simply interested in seeing the U.S. Constitution adhered to as loons? Why can’t B. Hussein Obama simply show his vault birth certificate? Moran says a birth announcement in a newspaper is proof. Why is not a recorded tape of Obama’s grandmother saying he was born in Kenya not proof? People skeptical of Obama’s citizenship are not loons, Rick Moran is the one who is a jerk.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:30 pm 189. Locomotive Breath:

Obama’s mother being a U.S. Citizen does not automatically make him a Citizen regardless of his birthplace. If Obama was NOT born in Hawaii then she did not meet the residency requirement to make him a Citizen. See the correction by well-known law blogger Eugene Volokh who was also confused about the issue.

[Eugene Volokh, December 1, 2008 at 12:07pm] Trackbacks
Correction About Natural-Born Citizen Law
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_30-2008_12_06.shtml#1227910730

Hawaii has TWO birth documents. Obama has presented an electronic copy of a “Certification of Live Birth”. To prove Hawaiian ancestry, the state of Hawaii will not accept a “Certification”. You must present a “Certificate of Live Birth” which is a different document and which Obama refuses to have released.

http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl

[Quote]In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.[Quote]

Hawaiian officials did say there is a “Certificate of Live Birth” but they did NOT say what information was on it, as they are prohibited by law from releasing that information. Obama could have it released with just a phone call.

Why does he not put this whole thing to rest by releasing the CERTIFICATE?

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:31 pm 190. Tom:

This is the reply I received from my senator:

Thank you for contacting me regarding President-Elect Obama’s citizenship. I appreciate hearing from you and would like to respond to your concerns.

Like you, I believe that our federal government has the responsibility to make certain that the Constitution of the United States is not compromised. We must fight to uphold our Constitution through our courts and political processes.

Article II of the Constitution provides that “no Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” The Constitution, however, does not specify how that qualification for office is to be enforced. As you may know, a voter recently raised this issue before a federal court in Pennsylvania. On October 24, 2008, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania released an order in the case of Berg v.Obama.In that case, the plaintiff, Phillip Berg, raised the same issue that your letter raises regarding proof of the President-Elect’s birthplace. Through his lawsuit, Mr. Berg sought to compel President-Elect Obama to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate.

The District Court dismissed Mr. Berg’s suit and held that the question of Obama’s citizenship is not a matter for a court to decide. The court further noted that voters, not courts, should decide whether a particular presidential candidate is qualified to hold office.

Presidential candidates are vetted by voters at least twice – first in the primary elections and again in the general election. President-Elect Obama won the Democratic Party’s nomination after one of the most fiercely contested presidential primaries in American history. And, he has now been duly elected by the majority of voters in the United States. Throughout both the primary and general election, concerns about Mr. Obama’s birthplace were raised. The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.

After he is sworn into office, Mr. Obama will be our nation’s President and I intend to bestow upon him the honor and respect due any man who holds that Office. Yet, I am certain that there will be times when I will disagree and oppose President Obama’s policies. When that happens, you can be assured that I will pursue vigorously what I believe to be in the best interest of Florida and the nation.

I thank you for sharing your views with me and will keep your concerns in mind. If you have additional questions or comments, please contact me. For more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at http://martinez.senate.gov.

Sincerely,

Mel Martinez
United States Senator

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:33 pm 191. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Really?

No, all proof currently extant points to his birth in the US. — Jeff Weimer

Show US the ‘proof’ you speak of.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[All we are saaaaayyyyiiiing;
Is give proof to UUUUUuuuuusssss. -- George Harrison (paraphrased)]

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:35 pm 192. Anonymous - San Francisco:

#179 – the most frustrating part is that we’re doing exactly what they want instead of focusing on important issues. They just announced that they received almost $750 million in donations but nobody is asking how they accomplished that during the worst financial crisis in recent history because we’re all too busy talking about the BC issue.

Yet Obama and Axelrod could clear this up in a day if they wanted to and nobody would talk about it again. I feel as though both of them really enjoy playing games with people, it makes them feel more powerful and also confirms their belief that they’re smarter than us.

They also seem extremely vindictive – after Clinton was nominated someone “leaked” a report to the media that they were considering hiring Lewinsky for a job in the new administration so that everyone would be reminded of her public humuliation when Clinton was in office. That really crosses over into behavior I consider abnormal – winning ins’t enough for people working for him. They need to humuliate people also, they enjoy it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:39 pm 193. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Just Wondering…..

…what all these ardent defenders of The One till do if it is proven that he is NOT ‘the One’ who can sit in the Big Chair.

Will they quietly accept the result of having Biden as President of the United States?

Will they express apologetic remorse for being lead down the proverbial ‘prime rose path’?

Will that attack those of US who were right to suspect the veracity of the Dimocratic Party that this guy was eligible?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[It's easy to forgive when you're right. It's much more difficult to do so when the other side was right.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:43 pm 194. Jeff Weimer:

to Peter the Sub Guy from Jeff the Target guy:

Where is the primary source of the Grandmother’s statement? If there is none it’s hearsay at best and a fabrication at worst, but definitely not FACT.

Pakistan was an ally during the cold war, it wouldn’t have been impossible to go there, even if it would not necessarily have been safe. Same for Indonesia. It would not have been impossible as he was the dependent of an Indonesian (national? Citizen?). It still doesn’t cast doubt on his citizenship. If he were a dual-citizen, so what? There is no prohibition for dual-citizens, it’s inherent in that that he was still a US citizen. He was too young to renounce officially, and you have to do that to certain officials of the US government – again no record, and you have to be 18. there is also no record of him doing anything that would automatically revoke his citizenship. He returned to Hawaii before 18, and there’s no provision in US law that says a parent or guardian can do it for him. In any case, those countries were NOT closed to travel by US citizens at that time.

My child with the COLB, if challenged, would produce that as proof. Under current logic, it wouldn’t be enough for you. And it wouldn’t be your business, as that should be enough proof.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:44 pm 195. Has a Hawaii Birth Certificate:

To Chuck Pelto # 185.

An additional question or so:

[1] Is there a ‘raised’ seal on the certificate? Or an ink one? Something applied by the ‘local registrar’?

Not on mine; there is a attestation by the State Registrar and President of Board of Health (the last 2 signatures on mine that I refer to as ‘form’ signatures, that the copy is a true and correct copy of a Certificate of Live Birth on File.

[2] Any foot-prints?

If you mean seals, no.

[3] Is there any indication of the ethnicity of the parents? I notice that in the document offered by the Obama campaign, it lists the father as “African”. As opposed to “Negro”, “Negroid”, or “Black”. I found the use of “African” for the father as ‘odd’.

Yes, but no ‘blocks to check’. On mine father, mother and myself all have race: Causasian.

What I find interesting about the Obama Certificate that has been posted, and what appears to be missing, is the attestation by an attending physician that I was born at the date and time indicated on the form.

I also checked by wife’s and my children’s (all of whom were born in different states) and the one form of commonality between all theirs and mine is they all have an attestation from an attending physician that the child listed was born at the listed date and time. I would suggest those interested check their BC to see what’s on it.

I see no physician attestation on the form posted re: Obama. Now, clearly Obama was born, the question is where and when. The physicians attestation would end this issue, if there was one. If the attestation was/is blank, well, all that would be know is that said child was born, not where or when.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:46 pm 196. Thinking Person:

#192 Tom….I find the assertion in the letter that “The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.” to be really, really troublesome. So basically Sen. Martinez is stating that because Obama brainwashed a lot of illiterate, unthinking, followers who voted for him without a platform that that should be the end-game to his citizenship status? I’m thinking Sen. Martinez is sadly mistaken and forgot that he is there to represent all of the citizens in his voting district and not just the braindead sheep that pushed the “change” button. Dear God.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:01 pm 197. Jeff Weimer:

Chuck:

Umm, the certificate of live birth, backed up (circumstantially) by the notice in the newspaper, which comes from the hospitals and nowhere else. I mean really, we can parse through and *declare* it’s a fake, but where is YOUR proof? All of this is legally accepted documentation, and your allegations are exactly…what?

Pic of certificate (I *know*, you guys don’t believe it!):
http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg

Pic of newspaper notice (Same, I *know* you don’t believe it.):
http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/page-view.jpg

Can’t read that? Here’s a focus on The One:
http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/close-up.jpg

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:05 pm 198. CTN:

Mr. Weimer,

Thanks so much for providing a definition of a “national,” however, as before, I would appreciate it if you would furnish us with a definition of “natural born” as it is used in Article II Section I.

Then if you could account for Obama’s “natural born” subjection to the King, as well as his Indonesian citizenship — whether it was natural or naturalized — I will begin to wax as confident as you. Until then, however, I shall remain unsatisfied that he or anyone else has begun to answer the primary question at hand.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:08 pm 199. Obloodyhell:

I think Moran has a case, buuuuut, as a commenter notes:

> I agree with Rick Moran’s article, but must still ask one question – Why is Obama and his staff so reluctant to authorize the showing of the original birth certificate?

This is a lot like Saddam and his WMDs. WTF? If he really didn’t have them, then what’s the issue with demonstrating it? The worthless thug SOB could have stayed in power if he’d just passed that test. So Occam’s Razor applies — one has to assume that he couldn’t pass it.

I likewise don’t get it with the whole Birth Certificate thing. If it’s valid, and doesn’t make an issue of his status as an NBC, then what the hell is the problem with showing it?

Applying Occam’s Razor again, one has to assume that there’s some fairly relevant problem it would reveal.

I.E. — Something *stinks* here. Like two-week old fish…

And THAT’s why it’s significant to know the answer.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:11 pm 200. e. nonee moose:

Show US the ‘proof’ you speak of.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2008/10/27/daily60.html

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” said Chiyome Fukino. “State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.”

Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

What more proof do you need? You may as well be challenging John McCain’s American birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:14 pm 201. dragonfly:

Like Moran, I am leary of all conspiracy theories, whether it be of JFK’s assassination of Clinton’s “murders”. But it is not just the Birth Certificate, stupid!

The outcry for full disclosure of the public record of the holder of the highest office in our nation cannot fairly be called “looney”. From the outset of his campaign, Obama has, calculatedly, concealed or misrepreented almost every detail of his adult life. His scholastic record, his law office record, his relationship with an extremist pastor, his close ties to a radical marxist, his affiliation with the major black newspaper in Chicago, his role in a failed $100 million dollar educational project. When questioned, he has lied.

He is presented as an intellectual, but where is the documentation, from school, from law publications, from published books, from legislation?. Is flowery exhortation, with vacuous content, evidence of high intellect?

Does Moran not concede that all this should inevitably raise doubts and demands for explanation? Does he truly find honest outrage to be conspiritorial?

“Conspiritorial” is the way Sarah Palin has been “vetted” mericlessly and ridiculed for her open record. YET WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO HAS NEVER BEEN VETTED AND PROTESTS ANY INQUIRIES AS INSULTS AND HATE-MONGERING.

Mr. Moran considers “paranoid” those who ask for honest answers?

No candidate for office has ever received such a free ride. Maybe it was not a true “conspiracy”. The fact that some protesters are obsessive does not mean they are inflicted with aranoia. It is WRONG to elect someone to high office based solely on his persona and oratory. It is totally RATIONAL to require full disclosure. We demand it even of security guards. A socialist hack gets a pass for the Presidency because he’s so pretty and talks so nice he makes college girls and anchormen pee down their legs and no one wants to appear bigoted,
even to themselves.

Methinks Mr. Moran rightly identifies himself as a Right-Wing Nut.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:20 pm 202. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Another ‘Indicator’

I do believe that during the run-up to the election, Rick Moran published an item on the web that if Obama is elected, that The One would be ‘his president’.

Respectfully, if there is no proof, as in a bona fide birth certificate that is not a counterfeit, that Obama IS a natural-born citizen of the United States, he is NOT going to be MY president. And, indeed, technically speaking, he is not THE President of the United States.

Looking more closely at the material provided by robotech master about the Hawaiian Revised Statutes, it seems that ANYONE can walk into a Hawaiian government office relating to vital statistics and get a ‘birth certificate’ issued no matter WHERE they were born.

We could be talking about taking ‘carpet bagging’ to a level an order of magnitude above Hillary Clinton’s being a Senator for New York, when she moved there from Arkansas just in time to get legally onto the ballot.

But at least SHE did it legally.

It’s really quite simple. If you just take a deep breath, step back and look at it.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:21 pm 203. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Really….

Umm, the certificate of live birth…. — Jeff Weimer

…try not to be a total moron. There is no signature. And as I said earlier, I could generate a document that, like the COLB offered by Obama, could prove that Arnold the Governator was born in Washington DC on the 4th of July.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S.
After pointing this out to you on SEVERAL occasions, I get the distinct impression that English is not your natural language.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:25 pm 204. sydney jane:

My sister was born in Canada, of US parents. Yet, she has a certificate of live birth in the USA. She also had a Canadian birth certificate. So, just because Obama has a certificate of live birth from Hawaii doesn’t mean a thing. Anybody born to American parents overseas will get one. Shiloh and the Pitt twins can have one.

And, the fact that officials in Hawaii apparently said they have his birth certificate on file, but didn’t answer the fundamental question…sounds like they’re trying to cover up something to me.

All they have to do is release the damn thing. This is for the presidency of the United States, for goodness sakes. Why NOT release it?

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:25 pm 205. Jeff Weimer:

CTN:

Anything not “National” is considered “Citizen”. That’s why they had section 1408, as 1401 contains both National and Citizen (as you have duly noted). It’s a matter of subtraction, if you fall under both 1401 and 1408, you’re a National. If only 1401, you’re a Citizen. Read both sections – it’ll tell you everything you need to know.

1401: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

1408: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001408—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:38 pm 206. Jeff Weimer:

CTN:

“Natural Born” is as it says, born a US citizen. From all available records, Obama is a “Natural Born” citizen. The same question came up about McCain – he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. He was born to two US Citizens outside the US. It still makes him “Natural Born”, as it pertains to the law and (thus) the Constitution. If you are born a Citizen, you are “Natural Born”, you were never anything else.

See 1401(c):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:51 pm 207. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Those ‘Links’

What do they have to do with this issue? Bankruptcy? Donations?

Better luck next time, buckie.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:54 pm 208. Econ_Scott:

You are a smart man Moran. There has to be some reason your obfuscating.

You’re wrong about getting a passport of his Certificate of Live Birth. Both You and Ed Morrisey. I just got one. It requires a certified copy of the long form Standard form Birth Certificate wich also certifies the date time EXACT LOCATION and Third party Witness, almost invariable the physician,

My Wife who by stroke of luck was born on a road trip to Alberta Canada to an American Mother and Canadian Father, Was DENIED a new passport until she could prove in addition to the LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE, her Claim of U.S. Citizenship Paperwork at age 18.

The same as is being requested of Mr. Obama.

The State Department eventually found my wife’s paperwork … They just want to Charge her $575 to get a copy.

Maybe Obama doesn’t want to pay the $575.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:54 pm 209. CTN:

Mr. Weimer,

Even if you are correct, neither you nor Obama nor anyone else have accounted for his dual citizenship at birth or his Indonesian citizenship as a child, as they apply to the question. Moreover, no one has furnished tangible evidence to prove that Obama is a US Citizen, let alone a “natural born citizen.” Perhaps the most interesting fact about this controversy, however, is that Obama is a Harvard-trained constitutional attorney who also taught constitutional law. You would think he could answer this question in the blink of an eye. Then again, there is a reason he refuses to answer the question except through he surrogates at Annenberg and the Daily KOS.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:56 pm 210. Jeff Weimer:

But Sydney Jane,

She’s probably a Natural Born Citizen of the United States anyway, by law – see my previous posts re: section 1401 and 1408. She may also be a Canadian citizen. That wouldn’t stop her from being President, the law is silent on dual citizenship as it pertains to responsibilities and privileges.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:57 pm 211. Herb:

Wow, some of the comments here are hilarious. And not in a good way. Especially the reliable Chuck Pelto.

Is there a raised seal????? Dude…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:08 pm 212. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I think we have to remember that nobody really knows how many people in this country want to have this issue resolved soon. The media obviously doesn’t want anything to happen – they know having a celebrity with children in the WH helps sells magazines and even clothing so they’re not going to even report that people are discussing. However, they don’t seem to have a problem discussing how Clinton might not be eligible – very strange.

Most people don’t have to time to post online the way we are but I think it’s unfair to conclude that the people who think there is a problem with his BC are the same kind of people who think 9/11 was an inside job. There are probably more people who feel this way than we realize. Last week the op-ed in our newspaper was their response to all the people who have emailed them wondering why the media isn’t talking about this issue. They have most have receieved many emails if they decided they had to respond to people in op-ed with an explanation – the explanation was that they have decided it’s not “news worthy” because state health officials verified his BC was real.

This is the most liberal city in the country – almost everyone here is a Democrat who voted for him. If newspapers here are receiving lots of emails from people frustrated that the media isn’t talking about this issue, then I’m sure it’s the same in the other cities. This is also a city where people are more educated than most cities so they’re not stupid.

Yet people try to make you feel crazy if you bring us the BC issue, the same as what the person did here. He even calls us stupid and said we’re idiots just because we’re discussing it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:13 pm 213. dragonfly:

The newspaper notice is worthless as evidence to all but the simple-minded.. A newspaper, in those days, published any notice of birth received, from any source. No checking, no demand for certification.

A couple whose child was born abroad, returning to the U.S. and keenly aware of the advantages of giving him immediate citizenship rather than going through naturalization procedures later (tough in those days) would have every incentive to insert a Birth Notice in the local paper, without any thought of the Presidency. The benefits were obvious.

Lots of children were born at home, with or without midwives. The actual birthdate could have been weeks or months earlier, the actual place anywhere in the world. All hat was required was whatever date the supplier of the notice chose and a residential address. If Mama came back alone, or been abandoned, there was nothing to stop her from stating “Mr. & Mrs.”. OR MAYBE A SMART GRANDMA did it, on behalf of her distraught daughter. The newspaper sure didn’t check any more than it would check on a classified ad.

Has any body checked to see if the address given was Grandma’s house?

In truth, this is a highly plausible scenario, given the stonewall on producing any Certification that would survive examination. Am I becoming paranoid?

Mr. Moran’s write-off of the whole Birth Certificate issue on the basis of this notice sort of puts the “looney” label on the Right-Wing Nut.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:23 pm 214. Rob:

I’m not a crazy person. I hope Obama is a citizen – natural born – of the United States. But if he was born in Kenya he is not a citizen – natural born or otherwise – by Federal statute. Obama should provide an actual birth certificate identifying the actual details of his birth in Hawaii. He hasn’t done that, and because he hasn’t done that I have a growing sense of dread that he cannot do it because no such certificate exists.

I don’t know where we go from here.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:28 pm 215. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Raised Seal?

Is there a raised seal????? Dude….. — Herb

Show US the birth certificate and maybe we’ll know.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Glad to provide you with some ‘levity’…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:28 pm 216. Econ_Scott:

PS- The immigration officer, a woman did make my wife cry when she got off the cruise ship at Key West and arrest her for 8 hours and threaten to deport her.

Ah such is having the correct paperwork eh ?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:29 pm 217. Ella Lackey:

I didn’t see anyone covering this, but Obama is only a natural-born citizen if he was born in Hawaii. There are two reasons that he cannot be if he was born in Kenya:
1. His mother was too young. In 1961, the American parent had to be 19 (as in, an adult at the time of the child’s conception) for the child to be granted US citizenship.
2. His birth would have had to be registered at the American embassy or nearest consulate.

Also, there is some question over whether he can be President if he was a citizen of another country, such as Indonesia, and then naturalized back into the US.

None of this has been answered.

John McCain released his birth certificate, proving it had been appropriately filed with the US embassy in Panama, this summer to prove he met the citizenship requirements. What’s the big deal about this?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:29 pm 218. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Anonymous – San Francisco
RE: Heh….

I think we have to remember that nobody really knows how many people in this country want to have this issue resolved soon. — Anonymous – San Francisco

So, the Constitution and the Law mean nothing to you, eh.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A government of laws, and not of men. -- John Adams]

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:31 pm 219. dragonfly:

RE YOUR REJECTION: This post is ENTIRELY different than my earlier one, or I wuld not have submitted it. How come I see other commentators giving a running series, repeating themselves over and over, and yet a truly legitimate second thought gets rejected?

Stu williamson

Like Moran, I am leary of all conspiracy theories, whether it be of JFK’s assassination of Clinton’s “murders”. But it is not just the Birth Certificate, stupid!

The outcry for full disclosure of the public record of the holder of the highest office in our nation cannot fairly be called “looney”. From the outset of his campaign, Obama has, calculatedly, concealed or misrepreented almost every detail of his adult life. His scholastic record, his law office record, his relationship with an extremist pastor, his close ties to a radical marxist, his affiliation with the major black newspaper in Chicago, his role in a failed $100 million dollar educational project. When questioned, he has lied.

He is presented as an intellectual, but where is the documentation, from school, from law publications, from published books, from legislation?. Is flowery exhortation, with vacuous content, evidence of high intellect?

Does Moran not concede that all this should inevitably raise doubts and demands for explanation? Does he truly find honest outrage to be conspiritorial?

“Conspiritorial” is the way Sarah Palin has been “vetted” mericlessly and ridiculed for her open record. YET WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO HAS NEVER BEEN VETTED AND PROTESTS ANY INQUIRIES AS INSULTS AND HATE-MONGERING.

Mr. Moran considers “paranoid” those who ask for honest answers?

No candidate for office has ever received such a free ride. Maybe it was not a true “conspiracy”. The fact that some protesters are obsessive does not mean they are inflicted with aranoia. It is WRONG to elect someone to high office based solely on his persona and oratory. It is totally RATIONAL to require full disclosure. We demand it even of security guards. A socialist hack gets a pass for the Presidency because he’s so pretty and talks so nice he makes college girls and anchormen pee down their legs and no one wants to appear bigoted,
even to themselves.

Methinks Mr. Moran rightly identifies himself as a Right-Wing Nut.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:34 pm 220. Ella Lackey:

Jeff Weimer at 1:44pm:

1. Yes, it was prohibited by the Pakastani government for US citizens to travel there. That is why Obama used his Indonesian passport to travel there; he wouldn’t have been allowed to go otherwise.

2. The US may allow dual citizenship, but Indonesia doesn’t. If Obama became a citizen of Indonesia, his American citizenship would have been renounced, and he would have had to be naturalized back again.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:37 pm 221. robotech master:

Still waiting on some proof Jeff weimer… You know something that at least the DMV would take in order for him to get a license… Half a blanked out copy of a birth cert is not going to be taken by the DMV… nor is some newpaper article.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:37 pm 222. Ella Lackey:

And it’s important to note, Obama has NEVER supplied a COLB. He gave a copy (allegedly) to Soros- and Annenberg-run FactCheck.org, and they put a photcopy on the web. A photocopy which was later cleaned up because the first was, ahem, questionable.

There is no evidence unless you feel like playing Dan Rather to FactCheck’s Lucy Ramirez.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:39 pm 223. Jeff Weimer:

Aagh, you all assume he’s born elsewhere, PROVE IT. Without that, you don’t have nothing on which to stand. There’s more, real, legal evidence he was born in Hawaii, and NONE he didn’t (someone posted that another said an unnamed Grandmother SWEARS he was born in Kenya doesn’t meant a darn thing). So prove he didn’t.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:45 pm 224. Econ_Scott:

To get a passport requires a Certified Copy of the LONG FORM STANDARD BIRTH CERIFICATE revised in 1949, Which details Exact Time, EXACT LOCATION OF BIRTH, and THIRD PARTY EYEWITNESS TO THE LIVE BIRTH — In Hospital always the Attending Physician.

It Costs about $12 to $15 buck to get one and about a week unless you want to spend

To Date, there is no documentary evidence that Barack Obama wasn’t born in Beijing, China, Mombasa Kenya, Honolulu, Chicago, Sydney or Paris France or Paris Texas for that matter. There is just no Documentary evidence that would stand scrutiny in a court of law about where the hell he was born. Since he went to Harvard and got elected, does it matter ? Does following the Constitution matter on this or anything else it states is the law of the land ?

There is hearsay evidence that Obama’s grandmother was present at his birth in Mombasa. It’s not certified as Subpoenaed or “under oath” in a court of a law.

There is no documentation with the eye witness certification and as such it is easy to obtain but you know maybe it is the money that’s been the holdup.

Should we all pony up the $15 for him to get the certified long form copy of his birth ? Tell you what Moran, you put in a $fiver and I’ll send him a certified $10 bill. Then he can just get a copy and be done with it and get on with governing.

What do you say ?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:46 pm 225. Thinking Person:

It’s very easy to sum up:

It’s one of two choices…

1) You believe the certificate shows Obama is NOT a natural born citizen and want to see and verify it before his annointing in January.

2) You believe “sources” that vouch for the certificate but are afraid of finding out the truth JUST IN CASE so will take “sources” word for it and want the story to go away.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:48 pm 226. VekTor:

Some excerpts from a summary writeup I made for the HotAir thread:

The following will be in the context entirely outside Donofrio’s suit, speaking to the “birth certificate” issues.

There are two different documents that Hawaii can issue with respect to documentation of births. The first and most common, and the one provided by FactCheck and others, is the Certification of Live Birth. This is also referred to as the “short form”.

It’s important to note that this document reflects the CURRENT state of information on file in Hawaii, which is not necessarily the same as the information on the other form. Why is this important? Because Hawaii allows for the amendment of “birth certificates”, particularly when adoptions are involved.

See http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/newbirthcert.html

The other form is the Certificate of Live Birth, sometimes called the “long form” version. It is maintained in vault status, and is not amended. It contains original records and documentation from the location of birth, such as the signature of the attending physician.

Note the naming distinction. Certification of Live Birth = short form. Certificate of Live Birth = long form…. ….[P]eople are referring to a certificate of live birth being released. This is not the case. What has been released is a copy of the CertificaTION of Live Birth.

For an example of what the Hawaii version of the long form typically looks like, see http://snarkybytes.com/?p=521

As has been pointed out, Hawaii will issue Certification of Live Birth certificates even for persons born outside of the state of Hawaii. See, for example:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

Because of the nature of the Hawaii laws, there are some “original birth certificates” on vault-copy file in Hawaii for births that did not actually take place in Hawaii.

One of the pieces of information included on the “long form”, and not subject to later amendment, is the “Attendant” field, where someone signs their name next to the following text: “I hereby certify that this child was born alive on the date and hour stated above”. There are boxes to indicate MD, midwife, etc.

Since Hawaii allows for the issuance of birth certificates for those born outside the state after the fact, some have put forth a scenario along the following lines: Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya, and when nearing the time of delivery, was prohibited from boarding the flight back to Hawaii. Obama was born in Kenya, his mother flew back after the fact and registered the birth four days later.

If that were the case, Hawaii could very well have on-file a Kenyan birth certificate or other documentation, and a certification of live birth could have been issued, as his mother had been a resident of Hawaii for at least a year prior.

Upon subsequent adoption, his certification of live birth entries could have been modified to reflect different information than what was included on the original documentation.

All of the official statements of Hawaii officials, particularly Fukino, are consistent with this scenario, even if Obama were physically born in Kenya.

(I’m not contending that he was, merely pointing out that nothing that the officials have said contradict that scenario.)

What REPORTERS have claimed is not the same thing as what the officials themselves have said.

…[A]s has been pointed out, the law “prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.” I think the Supreme Court could certainly make the case that they have a tangible interest in determining whether Obama is constitutionally eligible, and thus could likely gain access if they so ordered.

I don’t know where Obama was born. It might very well make a difference, and I do know that his persistent stonewalling on releasing a long-form vault copy of his birth certificate has added massive fuel to this fire. It leads people to the natural conclusion that he has something to hide.

Do either Berg’s or Donofrio’s suits have merit? I don’t know. But I think it is a grave disservice to lump those who question why Obama is so very reluctant to release his long-form birth certificate (along with a massive pile of other records) in with 9/11 Truthers.

There are important constitutional questions at stake here. Whether someone thinks the rule of law actually matters is not a litmus test for Trutherism.

It’s an entirely reasonable observation to point out that (with the notable exception of Donofrio’s suit) the vast majority of this would be utterly silenced by issuing a certified copy of the long-form, unamended birth certificate… and that Obama’s reticence to do so arouses reasonable suspicions.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:49 pm 227. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I was saying that people are trying to make anyone who discusses this feel that there are only a few other people discussing it and they’re all crazy or stupid but that we have to remember we don’t know how many people in this country feel the same way as us. Most people don’t have time for online forums so we don’t know they exist but I think many more people are concerned about this the media wants us to believe. If the most liberal city in the country has lots of people asking about it then I’m sure lots of other people are also.

But when you mention it you’re called stupid or crazy the same way he is here.

“You’re the same as people who think 9/11 is an inside job.”

We’re not the same as those people. I think the constitution is important but overturning the election results now would probably cause so much anger from voters that I don’t think they should do it. The FEC was supposed to make sure the candidates were eligible – if they didn’t then voters should sue them but we can’t tell half the country their votes didn’t count just because the FEC didn’t do their job.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:50 pm 228. Jeff Weimer:

Ella:

He was unable to renounce, he wasn’t 18. Find some documentation for your information, otherwise it’s just conjecture.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:51 pm 229. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Anonymous – San Francisco
RE: Ah!

I was saying that people are trying to make anyone who discusses this feel that there are only a few other people discussing it and they’re all crazy or stupid but that we have to remember we don’t know how many people in this country feel the same way as us. — Anonymous – San Francisco

Thank you for clarifying that. I obviously misunderstood, based on what I read in the first few lines. [Note: I apologize, but 27 years of wearing green taught me to take the final gist of an item from reading the first lines. Something to do about putting the main point first and then using the rest of the document as supporting evidence.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Old habits, especially the good ones, die hard.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:03 pm 230. misanthropicus:

RE #202/nonee moose: [...] Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. [...]”

nonee moose, you like all Soetretrolls come with this nonsense – Fukino speaks legalese, she doesn’t say yes, she doesn’t say no regarding Soetero’s status.
And since you are so confident in Soetero’s integrity, why don’t you plead too, for releasing the certificate for public scrutiny?
Can you answer this? Do it!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:04 pm 231. SamIam:

Why the hell would the Obama campaign spend upwards of $1 million (reportedly) so far to combat the lawsuits rather than simply releasing the birth certificate?

Occam’s razor, folks.

If the SCOTUS doesn’t take the case this issue will be a permanent question.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:07 pm 232. Dave:

Ella Lackey your #222: Indonesia does NOT determine who is and is not a US citizen.

Indonesian law does NOT apply. AMERICAN law does.

You are in the position of stating that a foreign country has jurisdiction over these United States. Clean up your act!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:08 pm 233. Chuck Pelto:

TO: SamIam, et al.
RE: Indeed

If the SCOTUS doesn’t take the case this issue will be a permanent question. — SamIam

And thing could get rather ‘interesting’ as a result of inaction on the part of the various parts of our government.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Courage is your greatest present need.....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:15 pm 234. Herb:

Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it?

Do you fit any of the following criteria?

* the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
* the registrant’s spouse;
* the registrant’s parent(s);
* a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
* a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);
* a legal guardian of the registrant;
* a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
* a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
* a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
* adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
* a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
* a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
* a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

No??? Then you have no legal obligation to view Obama’s birth certificate. You’re just going to have to take the authorities’ word for it.

Where’s YOUR birth certificate? Why haven’t you made it public?

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:20 pm 235. robotech master:

225. Jeff Weimer:

“Aagh, you all assume he’s born elsewhere, PROVE IT. Without that, you don’t have nothing on which to stand. There’s more, real, legal evidence he was born in Hawaii, and NONE he didn’t (someone posted that another said an unnamed Grandmother SWEARS he was born in Kenya doesn’t meant a darn thing). So prove he didn’t.”

No you assume HE was born in Hawaii… I assume he was born SOMEWHERE… I ask for proof where he was born you submit NOTHING EXPECT EXCUSES.”

The only one assuming IS YOU. You ASSUME HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII AND IS A US CITIZEN… I ASSUME HE WAS BORN AND COULD BE A US CITIZEN… don’t confuse your little world…. with mine.(trust me you wouldn’t last long in my world)

The Constitution clearly states that obama MUST PROVE HE IS A US CITIZEN… YOU ASSUMING HE IS A US CITIZEN ISN’T PROOF. Posting a birth cert that any legal and illegal alien can get both legally and illegally very easily IS NOT PROOF.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:21 pm 236. robotech master:

Herb:

“Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it?”

Having a birth cert on record isn’t prove of being a US citizen… just means theirs some paper work their… if you can post where Hawaii says barack obama is a US citizen born in hawaii then thats proof.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:30 pm 237. B-Rob:

Robotech — simple question: how do you suggest he prove where he was born? What evidence would you accept. His mom is dead, his dad is dead, and so are his grandparents.

Let me tell you how I would prove my birthplace. My mom is alive (Dad, sadly, is not) but her mother was at my birth and she died in the mid 1970s. The ob/gyn who delivered me died about 15 years ago from cancer. So how do I prove my place of birth hyp[othetically assuming my mom was dead? Well, I have a birth certificate and there is a birth announcement in my local newspaper. Funny . . . that’s the same thing Obama has . . . .

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:42 pm 238. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I can’t believe we’re actually arguing over the President of our country refusing to show anyone his BC – it almost seems unreal, something that would be happening in a third world country not the most powerful Democracy in the world. I still can’t believe we elected someone who won’t show us his BC, medical records, college transcripts, senate records, nobody in the country has ever talked to any woman he was involved with prior to Michelle, nobody has talked to anyone who knew him in college, he is called a brilliant lawyer but doesn’t seem to have ever been in court, never wrote any legal briefs, nothing.

If I was asking people to vote for me so I could be the most powerful leader in the world, I would offer to give them anything they ask for instead of having my lawyers threaten people. The irony is that Obama wouldn’t be able to work for his own administration because he wouldn’t pass the background check.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:45 pm 239. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master, et al.
RE: What They Say….

Having a birth cert on record isn’t prove of being a US citizen… just means theirs some paper work their… if you can post where Hawaii says barack obama is a US citizen born in hawaii then thats proof. — robotech master

….vs. What is Real.

I’ve found that government officials can twist the English language into all sorts of half-truths.

Indeed, we here, locally, are dealing with such a situation now, vis-a-vis our City Council, which has decided to ask for the resignation of the City Manager. The whole thing is a great muddle. And one cannot decide WHO is telling which particular half-truth about the mess.

If we can have that kind of a problem listening to the local level City Council, who can say we’re safe from such at the state and/or national level.

So, back-to-the-current-thread….

….you bring up a valid point about how state-level officials can be telling half-truths about Obama.

And, thinking back to 40 years ago, I’m reminded that it took 30 years before the whole truth about goverment lies regarding the start of the Viet Nam War FINALLY came to light.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. As I’ve reported elsewhere on this blog, I knew a guy who was working Operations for CINCPAC when the Gulf of Tonkin ‘Incident’ was reported. He KNEW it was a lie. But HE kept the secret to himself until AFTER MacNamara published his confession.

He confessed his knowledge about the ‘incident’ to us at a table over beer and snacks after the monthly General Meeting of Denver Mensa. Half of the table looked on in amazement. Some in horror. One or two with daggers in their eyes….

[And people think it can't happen here.....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:47 pm 240. B-Rob:

SamIam, you start with a couple lies:

“Why the hell would the Obama campaign spend upwards of $1 million (reportedly) so far to combat the lawsuits rather than simply releasing the birth certificate?”

Who reported they spent $1 million? And they DID release the birth certificate, but you morons said it was a fake.

Oh, that’s right. You said it was not a “birth certificate” . . . but a “record of birth” as if that is different. My bad . . . .

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:47 pm 241. robotech master:

I would accept a legal birth certificate that is compared to some other form of records(preferably the hospital records but this I can be very flexible on).

Simple easy… take 2 weeks top but if done quickly 3 days easy…

The problem your running into is the fact you would use your birth certificate to prove birth… obama refuses to use his birth certificate to prove birth… so by your own admission you demand the same thing that I do… obama birth cert… which he refuses to give up and actively prevent ppl from seeing.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:48 pm 242. JM Hanes:

Hey! Rick Moran!

In your rush to put an embarrassing display of trutherism out of its misery as quickly as possible, you completely ignore a related set of legal and political issues in dire need of attention. While I can’t speak to the content of the various Birth Certificate petitions themselves, the case itself certainly passes the two pronged Messitte test (per Taranto) of “raising particularly significant questions of law, and/or those where there is a division of legal authority.”

On the one hand we have an explicit constitutional stricture, and on the other we have neither notion nor precedent establishing who has the standing to challenge a candidate’s constitutional credentials or who is empowered to entertain such a challenge. Such daunting lack of clarity has been compounded by at least one court which asserted that it had no jurisdiction, but couldn’t say who did. IIRC, that same court also raised questions as to timliness, with regard to nomination/election/inauguration — which it left similarly unresolved.

As a matter of common sense, if not law, the most logical venue/threshold for lodging a complaint might seem to be the FEC. When a candidate himself can block the necessary quorum required for them to act, and where consequences for irregularities, whether minor or momentous, can be regulated into post election irrelevance, surely there are foundational issues crying out for a hearing at the highest levels!

Regardless of whether suspcions in some quarters seem reasonable or loony, Obama’s refusal to provide a proper birth certificate for inspection, or to explain why one is not forthcoming, seems, at the very least, bizarre. The fact that a candidate apparently cannot be compelled to demonstrate his constitutional eligibility for election to the highest office should give everyone pause. When it is unclear which branch of government even has the authority to provide a remedy, self-righteous admonitions from self-appointed judges seem particularly ill considered.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:50 pm 243. B-Rob:

Anonymous-SF:

You have proven you are a moron. Guess what? To be on the Senate Foreign Relations committee, which has access to classified information, YOU HAVE TO PASS A BACKGROUND CHECK,YOU NINNY! You have to get a top security clearance, which Obama had and Richard Shelby and Pat Leahy no longer have.

That was the dumbest thing about the William Ayers thing, too. If Obama was THAT CLOSE to a “domestic terrorist”, you think the Bush FBI and Justice would have allowed a security clearance to the junior senator from Illinois? No. So to believe that Obama “wouldn’t be able to work for his own administration because he wouldn’t pass the background check” and that he “palled around with a terrorist”, you must also have to believe that the Bush administration covered this up. Explain that, moron!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:52 pm 244. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Why?

Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it? — Herb

Because I’ve learned better than to take government officials at their ‘word’.

Something to do with 27 years working with government bureaucrats from the Army perspective and another 11 working with them as a civil commissioner.

What’s your point? That you’re ‘gullible’ beyond belief? It’s blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer. Or maybe you’re something much, much worse….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Show US the bona fide legal and non-counterfeit birth certificate and all of this will go away.

Indeed, you and all the rest of US here have spent many more man-hours arguing the point than a simple document should require.

By the way….

….as indicated earlier here, this problem will NOT go away. Even if Obama IS sworn into the office. Indeed, things will get MUCH more ‘interesting’ if that DOES happen, without the benefit of validation of his citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:55 pm 245. robotech master:

B-Rob clearly you know nothing about how to get a SECURITY CLEARANCE or the process involved in it. I use to do background checks for security clearances… A top secret is only 10 years of background checks and unless something outstanding pops up their pretty easy to get. They pretty much never check vault birth cert… ever unless the question somehow comes up…

Obama has been in college and the US for well over 10 years…(think its over 20) their not going to go through much of the details or go that in-depth for some piss ant senator… sorry to burst your bubble. Even when you get into higher security clearances you need to be way up the food chain before they start looking 20+ years back.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:01 pm 246. B-Rob:

Chuck Pelto –

Obama has a passport and has had one since whenever. He probably had one as a child, given his family life. You have to submit a valid birth certificate to get one.

Let’s say he got his passport in 1971, when he came back to the US to live with his grands. What do you think his mom supplied the Nixon administration to convince them to issue him a passport? You think the conspiracy to “hide” his birthplace began back then? Well, for what purpose?

And don’t you think it is interesting that his grandparents were “clever enough” to remember to get the hospital to release his birth announcement to the newspaper? Because that is how it is done: the paper calls the hospital for all the births and deaths; they don’t wait for the families to call the paper, because most probably wouldn’t.

So this is what we have: a 47 year old newspeper story saying he was born in Hawaii, an original birth certificate that the State of Hawaii says lists his birth at that hospital, a modern day, tamper proof record from the State that says he was born there, and U.S. government passports issued to him throughout his life indicating he was born there. What the hell else more could you people want?

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:08 pm 247. Rashputin:

Chuck – ” …could get rather ‘interesting’ as a result of inaction on the part of the various parts of our government.”

Interesting to say the least. It would rapidly become clear who of those that swear to uphold the Constitution intend to do so. Hypothetically, any member of the government who does not uphold their oath to the Constitution would immediately be an enemy, by Constitution authority, of all those who did remain true to their oaths. I guess in such a case it would be important to figure out who in government takes an oath seriously, right?

In the hypothetical event that Obama were found to not be a citizen, he’d still have no need to be concerned. His Weatherman friends always swayed between anarchy and working with the system as a preferred means, so either way Obama and company get what they want. He and his supporters win either the “within the system” efforts of an un-Constitutional President, or the anarchy of an elected president being denied the office due to deliberate fraud. While the party he represented and the election oversight put in place on our behalf would both be proven failures, the root cause would be deliberate fraud. Fraud Obama perpetrated because he was sure one would pursue due to the “profound” consequences it would have for race relations. Based on the detailed records we have of his past, the stellar quality of his past associations, and the impeccable nature of the political party he represents, it’s obviously safe to assume that Obama would never try such a poly. That means, then, we can be sure he knows he’s really a citizen and is just luring his enemies into a trap.

As is now obvious, no matter how much democrat Congress volk may claim to be protecting the rights of the people, they absolutely do not think that one of those rights the people as a whole have is the right to honest elections. Otherwise, any documentation mentioned as necessary in the Constitution would be on file before there were even any finance documents to keep careful track of.

Regards

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:11 pm 248. VekTor:

Robotech said: “The Constitution clearly states that obama MUST PROVE HE IS A US CITIZEN… ”

Sadly, it does not actually say that. Part of the reason that we are at this point is that the Constitution states that TO QUALIFY to be President of the United States, he must be a natural born citizen.

Unfortunately, it does not define the test for determining who is (or is not) a natural born citizen in the specific context of this requirement, nor (staggeringly) does there appear to be ANY branch, department or agency of government which is tasked with the responsibility of determining whether someone actually meets that qualification.

It’s eminently weird that this should be the case, but it appears to be so. He’s required to BE a natural born citizen to be President, but no one is legally responsible for verifying that this is true.

To make matters even weirder, recent rulings on the question of “standing” in some of the cases related to this have led to the bizarro-world conclusion that if every single individual in the United States suffers the same “injury” from this Constitutional provision being violated, then NO ONE (apparently) has standing to sue over it.

It’s a loophole that is Kafka-esque in scope. There may be no legal way to avoid the anarchy that might arise from a non-qualified candidate assuming office.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm 249. B-Rob:

robotech –

True story. I joined a new company two years ago and guess what? After 20 months here, they mentioned that I had no provided a birth certificate. I called my mom. She doesn’t have one either.

Do we even know that Obama has

If I call the city where I was born and ask for a “birth certificate”, I am willing to bet my lect testy that the document they give me is almost identical to what Obama showed. Obama’s document is almost identical to the birth certificate I got for my daughter a year ago. And the State Department issued her a passport based on a document almost identical to what Obama produced.

There is not a shred of evidence that Obama was born anywhere but the hospital in Hawaii. All the historic records show that, including the newspaper. None of you will EVER come up with a good explanation as to how he got a passport “without a proper birth certificate”, nor will you ever explain how he passed the FBI background check and got the highest security clearance available (a) to sit on the Senate Foreign Relations committee, and (b) to receive the Presidential Daily Brief, which he has received since the election. In short, you guys are illogical boobs who probably also reject the moon landing.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm 250. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: My Birth Certificate

Where’s YOUR birth certificate? Why haven’t you made it public? — Herb

Where was it that I ran for the office of the President of the United States, where it is required by the Constitution of the United States that I be a natural-born citizen?

Try not to be such a twit.

But, give me $100,000 in the form of a certified check and I’ll send you a certified true copy of my birth certificate.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm 251. Anonymous - San Francisco:

He could pass a background check for the Senate or that committee but still not be eligible to be President – our governor in this state couldn’t be President but I’m sure he still passed a background check.

But you already know this and your insults only make you seem as though you can’t handle discussing this issue.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:20 pm 252. robotech master:

VekTor I agree its a legal mess… however I think we can agree that one must be at least a US citizen in order to be natural born… unless one has renounced ones citizenship… or had it stripped… So while it is not perfectly clear that simple fact remains…

Congrats B-Rod you once again say nothing… to sum you up obama is applying for a driver license and just because they take a form of doc that is easily faked and really doesn’t prove anything means that everyone should stand by and let things go…

I also point out to you their is not a shred of evidence that obama was born in hawaii if you have some please post it… the newspaper article clearly states nothing about where he was born… just that he was born.

I also posted about your BS FBI background check…

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:24 pm 253. craig:

The fundamental difference, of course, between ODS and BDS is that it hasn’t (yet, at least) taken over a significant chunk of the Republican party.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:28 pm 254. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Bob R
RE: Passport?

Obama has a passport and has had one since whenever. He probably had one as a child, given his family life. You have to submit a valid birth certificate to get one. — Bob R

Hmmm….

….I’ve had a passport. I don’t recall submitting a valid birth certificate for it.

Where are the regulations about getting a passport? Would a Certificate of Live Birth do in lieu of? After all, this COLB seems to be what everyone who supports The One thinks is just as good.

So. Where are the regulations regarding the issuance of a passport? That might shed some additional light on this matter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. What is Obama’s passport number?

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:28 pm 255. Rashputin:

B-Rob – “If Obama was THAT CLOSE to a “domestic terrorist”, you think the Bush FBI and Justice would have allowed a security clearance to the junior senator from Illinois? No. So to believe that Obama “wouldn’t be able to work for his own administration because he wouldn’t pass the background check” and that he “palled around with a terrorist”, you must also have to believe that the Bush administration covered this up. Explain that, moron!”

I really hate to burst your bubble, but those who need a clearance and are elected to Congress, get the clearance the same way that sharks don’t eat lawyers. A professional courtesy extended from one branch to another. In return, there isn’t too much scrutiny on those in the executive branch by those in Congress unless it’s a deliberate attempt to bargin for something not mentioned in the hearings and the press. There’s always a bit of fencing at the start of a new administration, of course, just to prove that both branches have a stiff sword, but that’s all it is.

What the Congress wants in the way of committee seats, it gets, even if those gaining access to confidential information are known junkies, sheep herders with odd inclinations, alcholics, or whatever. I base this on having worked on a Senate staff back in the seventies and ever since have been amazed that anyone tells the truth in front of a committee entrused to hear confidential information. Hopefully, it’s far better now, but in reality they’re probably using rolls of sensitive doucments for toilet tissue these days since they dissolve better than your standard non-skid and are therefore environment friendly.

You really don’t read much history that isn’t spoon fed to you from a website, do you?

have a nice day

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:29 pm 256. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rashputin
RE: Taking Thinks Seriously

Hypothetically, any member of the government who does not uphold their oath to the Constitution would immediately be an enemy, by Constitution authority, of all those who did remain true to their oaths. — Rashputin

Indeed…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
["I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:31 pm 257. Jeff Weimer:

Wow, I got dirty and you enjoyed it.

I’ll never do that again.

Stick with it, wait for Obama to give you “proof”. Oh, and hold your breath while you’re at it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:37 pm 258. VekTor:

B-Rob said: “There is not a shred of evidence that Obama was born anywhere but the hospital in Hawaii. All the historic records show that, including the newspaper.”

Which hospital in Hawaii was that, again? I haven’t seen a single “historic record” which indicates what hospital (if any) he was born in… the newspaper cited certainly didn’t. None of the major hospitals on Oahu indicate that they have a record of his being born there.

He might have been born at home, with a midwife attending, for all you know. Have you seen any official record which indicates that is not the case? There’s no field on the short-form regarding that information.

There are plenty of things you can do in Hawaii with the “short-form” Certification of Live Birth that he has produced… but there are some things you can’t do with it. Part of the reason for that is that Hawaii allows people to AMEND the contents of their short-form versions. It also allows people to get Certification of Live Birth forms for individuals who were born OUTSIDE the state.

For Hawaii’s Home Stead program, the short form will not be accepted by Hawaii officials. You have to present the (unamended) long-form Certificate of Live Birth. Why do you think they have that provision, if not for the fact that sometimes people amend the information on their short forms… particularly in conjunction with adoptions.

The long form indicates the physical location (hospital, home, etc.) and the signature of the person attending and witnessing the birth. That information is preserved, unaltered, in the “vault copy” version of the certificate of live birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:38 pm 259. Herb:

Chuck, Keep barking at the moon, bud. If the State of Hawaii says he was born in the state of Hawaii, you should just accept it and not hold out for some kind of more solid proof. If that doesn’t satisfy you, then nothing will, absent witnessing the birth with your own eyes. But even then, I suspect you’d require two forms of ID and a sworn affadavit from the nursing staff.

Obama is a natural born American citizen. He’s our next president. Accept it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:54 pm 260. Ms Attitude:

248. B-Rob:

I got a passport 2 years ago…this was after 9/11, mind you, and I didn’t need my birth certificate.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:58 pm 261. Ms Attitude:

Dear American People,

Hello. I will not be giving you my real information, as it needs to remain secret – at least until after our plan is enacted. I am a Top Executive at the Democratic National Committee. I can tell you this. What you have have been suspecting is true – Barack Obama was not actually born in Hawaii. The document that we have provided him to show as his birth certificate is not authentic; it was created in our experimental laboratories at the DNC’s World Headquarters in Saudi Arabia. This experimental lab – and, this may be quite shocking – this lab is where Barack Obama himself was also created, almost 48 years ago, as part of PROJECT FLAGBURN.

Yes, we had been trying for years, using the latest technology, to create the perfect candidate to enforce our liberal agenda. In the fall of 1960, we were finally successful, in our ninth try, in using recombinant DNA and artificial insemination to inject our carefully-crafted genetic material into an electronic womb (by bubbling Argon gas through radioactive stem cells). As the BARACK9 grew, we fed it nutrients infused with “Memory Cells” culled from the brainstems of famous left-wingers such as Adlai Stevenson, Bertrand Russell, and Ambrose Bierce – guaranteed to transmit our policies and doctrines into its growing brain. We radioactively stimulated the liberal centers of the brain and implanted radio-controlled microchips into its cerebellum.

Here at the DNC, we detest nationalism, pride, the Christian religion, and our troops. We have decided that a hybrid of Communism and Islam would be a much better system for our country. As BARACK9 grew up, we taught it to have these values as well. When the time was right, we entered it into politics, controlling its brain with our “Brain-Control Device”. We also were responsible for 9/11, the financial crisis, and other key events to ensure that George Bush has a low approval rating. Now, the time has come. Soon BARACK9 will be voted in as the head of the most powerful country on earth. You will soon have a President named Barack Hussein Obama, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. As his first act, Barack Obama will issue the following executive orders:

1. All flags will be replaced with pictures of Barack Obama’s face
2. All personal property and land of registered Republicans will be forfeit to the state
3. All churches, pictures of Jesus Christ, and religious iconography will be destroyed immediately. All mentions of the Christian religion will be punished by death
4. Everybody must wear a turban at all times and pray to Mecca 12 times a day
5. Arabic will now be the official United States language
6. The country will be renamed to The Islamic Communist Republic of Ameristan
7. All white people must issue public apologies to minorities for former misdeeds of their race. The jobs and money of Whites will be offered to blacks, muslims, and atheists as punishment.
8. White women will be offered as brides to black muslim men who get first priority of choosing up to ten wives. Whites will be put into forced labor camps for one year to show them what slavery was like
9. All heterosexuals must issue public apologies to gays and lesbians. In order to increase sensitivity to homosexual issues, they will be incarcerated for one month with a homosexual member of the same sex who is allowed to use them as seen fit.
10. Republicans will be branded with a R on their forehead and must kiss the buttocks of a liberal whenever requested to do so

I am only divulging this because there is nothing which can be done about it at this point. We initially saw Sarah Palin as an immense threat to our cause, but we have launched a huge and successful disinformational smear campaign against her which has neutralized her influences.

Prepare for your new leadership to begin on January 20!
DNC Top Executive “John”

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:01 pm 262. Robert Hurley:

Maybe Obama is doing this just to torture you rightwing nuts. I expect after the SC turns the case down you will all hold your breath until you turn blue. This is all too funny

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:01 pm 263. Ennis:

I have to agree with some of the posters here when they say if there is no problem why hasn’t Obama provided a copy to the courts. He does not have to make it public, all he has to do is just show it to the court-case closed and “troofers” debunked. In fact all he would have to do is show them the bill from the doctor or the hospital and that would be enough under the law.

All the hoops Obama and the Democrats are going through to avoid showing his birth certificate to anyone makes me rather suspicious. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:03 pm 264. robotech master:

Herb please post where the state of hawaii said he was born in hawaii I have never seen them say that.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:03 pm 265. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Obama As President

Obama is a natural born American citizen. He’s our next president. Accept it. — Herb

Not if he isn’t a natural-born citizen as proven by the proper documentation.

RE: Barking Idiots

Keep barking at the moon, bud. — Herb

You go ahead and bark.

Personally? I tend towards silence. Until the time is right…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There are nights when the wolves are silent, and only the moon howls.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:06 pm 266. Aham:

Hmm. Under theories propounded in these comments, it would appear that our first 9 presidents, through William Henry Harrison, were unconstitutional because they were not born in the United States, but in colonies of Britain. There is good legal precedent for believing that the term “natural born” in the Constitution referred to what is called the “jus soli” principle, under which citizenship is based on the “right of soil,” or in other words, the birthplace. Under “jus soli” the children born on U.S. soil to undocumented aliens would be — and are — considered “natural born” U.S. citizens. If Obama was born in Hawaii, he is “natural born” no matter what his father’s citizenship was. If he had wanted to claim his father’s British citizenship under the “jus sanguini” or “right of blood” he probably would have been entitled to do so on reaching his majority, but no affirmative action would be required for him to retain his “natural born” rights to U.S. citizenship. So the whole Obama birth kerfluffle comes down to whether he was born on U.S. soil.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:19 pm 267. Ms Attitude:

I don’t think he’ll ever produce a birth certificate…he’s crooked and knows it because he did teach Constitutional Law.

I agree with a post above that states, “I am more interested in the myriad of applications, forms, documents that one submits throughout a lifetime in Jakarta, traveling to Pakistan or Indonesia, student loans, whereby place of birth, citizenship, travel status and the like may have been submitted for purposes of gaining more favorable treatment.”

For the record: I adopted a child in 1991, the adoption records are sealed, in the court hearing his father and I were given a form to fill out…we got to pick our address, the hospital name, and the doctor’s name. It is signed by a certifier and registrar and looks exactly like his younger brother’s who was born that year.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:27 pm 268. Ms Attitude:

ATTENTION ROBERT HURLEY:

Go read Huffingtonpost.com….your friends are turning on each other. All of the things “the right-wing nuts” foretold are starting to come true–He’s breaking his promises. His “Clinton II” cabinet, his selection of HRC for SOS all goes against everything he promised his followers. How about him backtracking on the windfall tax on big oil? How about him holding off on raising taxes on those that make more than $250K a year? He’s a liar. He has no respect for the Constitution!!! Thank you so much for voting for him!!! NOT!

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:33 pm 269. A.W.:

I think that the fear of an Obama administration comes from the fact he has always been a blank slate. I think it would be hard for anyone to claim they can definitively answer the following question: “When Obama says hope and change, he means changed to ________.” And really I could make a convincing case that the blank will be filled in with anything Bush’s third term, to Chavez’s Venezuala. But the truth is, we just don’t know, although recent appointments raise the hope that it ain’t really going to be very much change after all.

So people are looking for a silver bullet to solve the problem. It won’t come. We have to suffer through 4 years of obama, and either the dems are going to get serious, or they will remind us why they can’t be trusted on national security.

That being said, I still follow the Reagan mantra: trust but verify. So applied here, sure, chances are Obama is qualified to be president. But he should have to prove it before he is sworn in. And if it means teaming up with loony truthers, well, okay. even a broken clock is right two times a day (unless it is digital). But i ain’t gonna hold my breath hoping that by some miracle we can avoid 4 years of obama. and then what will happen? I suppose those electors will probably vote for biden instead. Or maybe hillary. um, are we sure we want to go down this route?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:37 pm 270. robotech master:

Aham Please review what the constitution says it clearly says the first 9(or so) presidents were legit…

Next the I 100% agree with the “soil” argument which is what most ppl in here that want to see are arguing. The simple fact is their is currently no legal proof of him being born in hawaii… their is lots of info saying he wasn’t and some info saying he was… however their is no legal proof either way. The easiest and quickest legal proof of the “soil” argument is his vault copy birth cert which should have his place of birth on it… be it in hawaii or somewhere else.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:45 pm 271. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Aham
RE: Heh

Under theories propounded in these comments, it would appear that our first 9 presidents, through William Henry Harrison, were unconstitutional because they were not born in the United States, but in colonies of Britain. — Aham

Are you trying out for a position as a staff attorney on Team Obama?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Bob Herron had better watch out…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:06 pm 272. fred:

Please, folks, why do we give that guy Robert Hurley any attention at all? He’s outlived his usefulness and forgotten that the election is over. Is that guy even an American? I suspect he’s a Brit, but I can’t prove it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:12 pm 273. e. nonee moose:

Uhm, don’t you people have more important things to do? If you wonder why the conservative movement is sucking wind right now it’s because you spend too much time on garbage like this and not enough time on issues of substance.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:14 pm 274. cedarford:

81. Jeff Weimer - Thanks for bringing all the legal documents and logically explaining them.
Then coming back repeatedly to provide more citations and explain them to the Truthers. I could have told you, as did Rick Moran, that these people are haters impervious to truth or persuasion based on facts.
No law or evidence, or the common sense tests posited by myself or B-Rob, among others, has the slightest impact on the Truther psychos.

Finally you “get it”:
259. Jeff Weimer:
Wow, I got dirty and you enjoyed it.
I’ll never do that again.

Stick with it, wait for Obama to give you “proof”. Oh, and hold your breath while you’re at it.

When you engage these Truther sorts, ensure you do so to vex them, laugh at them..for you can only expect amusement from their deranged reactions, and never the satisfaction of educating them.

And just as Sarah Palin got great satisfaction and political boost standing up to the Truthers that demanded her son’s birth certificate and gynecological records or “Her Lies could destroy the Vice-Presidency”, Obama and his Team are getting theirs.
The more Palin stood up to Lefty Truthers, the higher her esteem was in “The Base”. Team Obama can expect a similar rallying effect to any slimey attack on his legitimacy to be America’s Elected Leader, and overturn the People’s vote.

As he reaches to the Center, nothing, but nothing, suits Obama’s purposes for boosting him with Leftist supporters better than a howling pack of Right-Wing Truthers also demanding Birth Certificates and “court-validated” evidence rebutting the Secret Kenyan Birth. The more Obama disses and ignores them, and the madder the nutball Truthers get, the better it is politically for him.

Well worth whatever court costs the Truthers inflict…because the longer it stays alive, the more conservative Republicans taint themselves by association with the nutballs. To go back to my analogy of before, stretching out the Truther self-embarassment of themselves in courts is the equivalent of buying your enemies more shovels when you see them digging a hole.

It helps paint conservatives as deranged loons. Few things will be sweeter than an Obama Inauguration where he is talking about recovering the American economy, working to get health insurance to working Americans and the middle class, reducing our international dangers, and working on green energy – to have the press briefly focus on a small mob of wild-eyed fruitloop Truthers dribbling spittle as they demand “proof he isn’t Kenyan, proof communists didn’t pay for his mother to fly against doctors instructions to a dirty village..”

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:19 pm 275. Rashputin:

Robert Hurley – “This is all too funny”

It’s obvious that the progressivolk have been lying when they talk about fearing illegal government actions. I guess the potential for obvious fraud on the part of the same crowd who gave us “Sweetheart Dodd” and “No Problem with Fannie Frank” is just another matter for the propaganda machine to handle. Let’s hope so. Otherwise you could end up with an ecology problem of major proportions, like how long some sorts of trees can go between waterings.

Have a good laugh

Aham – ” … or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution … ”

You missed that part, or ignored it. They were covered as they were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

Have a nice day

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 pm 276. myth buster:

People ask, “Would SCOTUS really overturn an election if the candidate was ineligible?” They better, or would prefer a military coup? Because that is what is required by law if the President is ineligible, because an ineligible President cannot issue a lawful order. Since the Military is required to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, the only action consistent with that obligation would be for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff to escort an ineligible President from the Oval Office, and recognize the Vice-President as Commander-in-Chief.

If the Vice-President, the Speaker of the House and the President-pro-tem of the Senate are all complicit in this subversion of the Constitution, the only legitimate course of action would be for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs to declare himself to be Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces, by virtue of being the highest ranking officer when the entire civilian high command is illegitimate (by virtue of being ineligible to serve, refusing to recognize the ineligibility of the man claiming to be President and refusing to step up as the legitimate President as per succession laws, or by being appointed by someone who lacked the authority to appoint them to cabinet or sub-cabinet level positions).

If this course of action were followed, civil war could result, but the law demands it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:26 pm 277. myth buster:

Clarifying robotech, if someone was a citizen when the Constitution was adopted, that person was eligible to be President, but anyone born later must be a natural-born citizen to be eligible.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:29 pm 278. Roger Godby:

There were rumors–and those are often adequate to set things in motion–that President Andrew Jackson wasn’t a natural born citizen. Can we posthumously strip him of his Presidency?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:41 pm 279. suzy:

I am equally wondering why Obama refuses to produce his birth ceritificate, even though it would put any citizen fears to rest. Oh, wait! “DAVE” and pat J say he’s a citizen. oh, ok, that’s good enough for me. if “dave” says he’s american….NOT!

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:46 pm 280. jason:

Wow, Moran has really drunk the Obamamessiah Koolaid, equating 9/11 conspiracy nuts with those trying to ascertain whether Obama is eligible for the Presidency. Contrary to many who wrote here, a child of ONE U.S. citizen is not automatically a citizen if born outside the U.S., and even a child of TWO U.S. citizens has citizenship from birth but is not a “native born citizen”. If Obama was born outside the U.S. to an American mother he is not eligible, period.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:53 pm 281. Herb:

robotech master and anyone else interested in facts, rather than mindless speculation:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

See, specifically the part where Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, confirms that his birth certificate is valid.

Part of her statement follows:
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

State officials said Saturday they have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said.

Case closed…

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:16 pm 282. Rashputin:

myth buster – “f this course of action were followed, civil war could result, but the law demands it.”

Oh the irony.

Obama holding the public hostage on the Potomac, sure that no one can stop him because black folk will rise up to support him.

By the most traditional of democrat methods, we would be pulled back from the brink of economic hardship. There’d be huge numbers of public service opportunities for the youth, large swaths of outdated infrastructure would be torn down, and the reduction in human exhaled CO2 would offset the increase in industrial activity. Sweet, change is simple after all.

have a nice day

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:21 pm 283. Reg:

This site is such a sad waste of cyberspace. With a nation brought to its knees by eight years of neocon and right wing ideology and mismanagement, you take the trouble to discuss – with some pretense at seriousness – a baseless lawsuit that will never, ever be accepted by the Supreme Court. Ten million Americans are out of work, forty six million have no health coverage, and one in ten is either being foreclosed or behind in a house payment – and this is your concern? Allowing an illiterate, incurious, dry drunk to remain in office after so much horror was not enough. Get over it. It’s a done deal. Live with it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:25 pm 284. ShyAsrai:

This whole “birth certificate mess” is not trivial. Not by any means.

The responsibility for said mess can be laid squarely at the feet of Barak Obama, who has performed major contortions to block release of proof of eligibility – unlike McCain, who readily provided proof of his eligibility upon request.

Eligibility for the office of POTUS, Leader of the Free World, is NOT undeserving of an answer even if arguments against are promulgated by uber-partisans solely for partisan reasons or hatred or paybacks or any other good or rotten reason.

Hating that Obama is the presumed Pres. Elect; furious over the general election; fury over the past 8 years of Bush-whacking – does not mean he is immune from eligibility requirements or the need to answer said challenge.

George Bush was forced to seek a court ruling on whether he would be POTUS; is Obama somehow immune?

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:31 pm 285. robotech master:

Thanks to Rashputin and myth bluster on fixing that was to vague.

As for cedarford… you tucked tail and run after I lit your strawmen on fire… As for your whole Jeff Weimer “did good” bit… in many respects the info he posted helps the pro-show the birth cert/ obama is not a US citizen… not his side. So I’m not sure why you’ll so happy about it… he is in effect debunking his own position…

As for B-Rob being that fact he has zero clue what hes talking about not sure you include him… also the fact he openly admits the only way to legally check obama birth is to review his birth cert…

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:46 pm 286. Jeff Weimer:

re: 275. cedarford:

Unfortunately, it could paint the rest of us as loons, just as the election 2000 and 9/11 truthers. Of course, they got no traction then, and my fellows will get none as well. Don’t worry, we’re not al hung up on this, and have plenty of arguments that have real traction. Ignore us for this at your peril.

Stand by….

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:52 pm 287. goy:

Rick, (and I’m trying really, really hard not to type YOU MORON) the fact that Fukino issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid SAYS NOTHING ABOUT WHAT’S ACTUALLY ON THE CERTIFICATE. To boot, in this forum it’s an appeal to authority fallacy (see CP’s comment re: junior high debate).

Here’s the point you’re missing, Moran: if it’s “valid”, as these bureaucrats claimed over a month ago, then what exactly is the problem with releasing the document so that there’s no question in anyone’s mind? Why was the document ordered “sealed”?

Is it not important enough for the entire U.S. Armed Forces – the most dangerous military force known to all of human history – to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Obama is in fact a natural born citizen of the United States, and that any order he may give them as Commander-in-Chief is a lawful and valid one? Because at this point, all they have to go on are Obama’s word (we all know what that’s worth), a re-issued document that looks like a fake (what’s the frequency again, Kenneth?) and a statement by some unelected, unaccountable bureaucrat in Hawaii who doesn’t seem to realize that EVERY U.S. CITIZEN has a “tangible interest” in knowing whether or not Obama is a natural-born citizen of the U.S.

WE HAVE KNOWN the certificate is “valid” ever since Governor Lingle ordered the document sealed. At least that’s what she’s led the world to believe. But here’s the problem: the fact that it’s “valid” says NOTHING about what that certificate shows regarding Obama’s actual place of birth. A “valid” certificate could STILL show that he was actually born in Kenya and that the birth was later registered in Hawaii. Fukino’s statement does NOT address that critical point, which is the crux of the controversy. Is any of this sinking in yet? Or are you still high on accusing fellow conservatives of suffering from some syndrome only you seem to see?

AGAIN – FOR THE CHEAP SEATS: if there’s nothing damning about the vault copy of Obama’s COLB, why create controversy by refusing to release THAT rather than a fake-looking re-issue?

And again, to the real point: you (Rick) have a lot of fracking nerve claiming that someone suffers from “ODS” simply because they demand objective, verifiable proof on what is arguably one of the most important questions of the day. You seem perfectly happy accepting a known liar’s word and some bureaucrat’s irrelevant claim; I’ve seen monkeys at the zoo pick their noses with greater perspicacity.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:58 pm 288. Jeff Weimer:

275. cedarford:

This is not a problem solely with the left or the right – see those who still haven’t gotten over 2000 – their psychoses lasted this long. That is STILL infecting the political process(has GWB done ANYTHING good? – try Africa and AIDS – even Bob Geldof is ticked off). This is our lame attempt to make his election equivalent, and I am ashamed. We shouldn’t do that, we’ll get more without the crazy-eyed marginally legal “questions” about his citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:13 pm 289. radtop:

The real reason Obama refuses to produce his birth Certificate is because it shows his father’s religion as Muslim. In Islam, this automatically makes him a Muslim.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:43 pm 290. Mike G in Corvallis:

I agree with Rick Moran’s article, but must still ask one question – Why is Obama and his staff so reluctant to authorize the showing of the original birth certificate? It is Obama and not the Obama Derangement Syndrome (ODS) idiots who are keeping this story alive. If the story could be killed by the simple showing of the birth certificate, why not do it?

I can think of two plausible reasons why Barack Obama might not want the public to see his hospital birth certificate.

Note: I don’t regard the possibility that Obama is not a United States citizen as particularly plausible, but your mileage may vary. If so, I don’t care to spend the time or resources in arguing with you. But good luck in proving your case to someone who matters!

Plausible reason #1: The name on his hospital birth certificate might not be “Barack Obama.” The newspaper announcement does not give his first name. His school records, in Indonesia and in the U.S. through high school, apparently all list his first name as “Barry.” The Certificate of Live Birth for “Barack Obama” proves nothing, either way — this particular COLB is a 21st-century reissue, and it is not uncommon in cases of adoption or other name changes for a state to reissue a COLB with the new name to simplify paperwork. (My own mother changed her first name as a teenager and had a new COLB issued.) Apparently Obama first started calling himself “Barack Obama, Jr.” in college, at a time when he himself says he was searching for authenticity; for all we know being Barack Obama, Jr. also might have made it easier for him to get into Harvard as the son of an alumnus. So why would Obama want to hide the original birth certificate? If it had come out during the campaign that Barack Obama, Jr. was really plain old Barry, it would have deflated his image, wouldn’t it?

Plausible reason #2: He enjoys making his opponents’ heads explode.

The two explanations are not mutually exclusive.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:47 pm 291. pissed:

I think Rick Moran has not done sufficient research on the topic of which he writes. Here is a small sampling to improve his education;

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/birthcertificate/index

http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=134#comment-8191

http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=135

http://sites.google.com/site/obamabirth/

http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?page_id=1518

http://www.bloggernews.net/118851

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/12/02/qanda-with-obama-birth-certificate-doubters/

http://www.grassfire.org/111/petition.asp?PID=19020955&NID=1

http://www.conservativeusa.org/megalink.htm

http://countusout.wordpress.com/

http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/obama-not-eligible-us-constitution-tenth-amendment-bill-of-rights-us-supreme-court-federal-judges-state-judges-state-election-officials-electoral-college-electors-philip-j-berg-lawsuit-leo-c/

http://zachjonesishome.wordpress.com/

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/four-questions-for-the-trojan-candidate/#more-5183

http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin84.htm

http://www.democratic-disaster.com/

http://americamustknow.com/default.aspx

http://drorly.blogspot.com/

http://contrariancommentary.blogspot.com/

http://www.obamacrimes.com/

http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm

http://f2a.org/coast2coast/obamacitizenship.htm

http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?m=20081204

http://www.peoplespassions.org/

http://www.contrariancommentary.com/community/

http://freedommarch.org/FreedomMarch_Radio.html#Orly_Taitz_Part_1

http://www.f2a.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=aboutus.home

http://www.rallycongress.com/constitutional-qualification/1244/stop-obama-constitutional-crisis/

http://www.howobamagotelected.com/

http://larrysinclair-0926.blogspot.com/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2136816/posts

http://obambi.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/

http://obacalypse.blogspot.com/

We shouldn’t write off of the top of our heads now should we Rick?
Not Pajama Media quality on this one.
Keep trying…you’ll get it right.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:58 pm 292. Theravenseldon:

Am I the only one who thinks “Who cares where he was born? His Mom is a citizen”?

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:00 pm 293. Mike G in Corvallis:

Hey, people!

In comment #236, “Herb” may have given you the answer to your prayers:

Do you fit any of the following criteria?

* the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
* the registrant’s spouse;
* the registrant’s parent(s);
* a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
* a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);
* a legal guardian of the registrant;
* a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
* a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
* a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
* adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
* a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
* a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
* a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

No??? Then you have no legal obligation to view Obama’s birth certificate. You’re just going to have to take the authorities’ word for it.

There’s your solution! Barack Obama has a half-brother living in Kenya, allegedly in dire poverty. For a hundred bucks or so, have him sign the paperwork for the request, and we can settle this once and for all!

C’mon, that’s gotta be faster and less expensive than taking the case to the Supreme Court!

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:05 pm 294. Achillea:

Shorter Moran: Calls to produce an easily-obtained legal document to prove Constitutional qualification for leader of the free world are fundamentally equivalent to accusations of a gigantic conspiracy to commit mass murder that have been being debunked by physicists and structural engineers for the past 7 years.

Those must be some mighty fine drugs, Ricky-boy.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:11 pm 295. robotech master:

Herb seriously… like rick moron you have be debunked before you even post… try reading comments 1-50… before you post the same crap that as been debunked. (for the 10,000th time)

To Mike G

It is my view that it could have a number of issues he doesn’t want to talk about…

1. the name change
2. where he was born
3. Loans and grant info present at colleges that could show he “cheated” the system and got money he wasn’t suppose to. And/Or that he reg under that of being a non-US citizen.
4. Provide a name that matches more with records in the countries he visited thus in turn showing… “unpleasant acts” he did in his youth.
5. Failure to register with the selective service.

The end run is this… while it may not prove that he is not able to POTUS it may prove that he has broken a host of laws and would quickly end of in jail…

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:15 pm 296. TMLutas:

For those asking why Obama does not simply produce the document, here’s something to chew on. There’s only so much time, energy, and money out there to oppose Obama. The more that is diverted to blind alley paths, the easier time Obama will have in getting what he wants on issues that actually matter.

If the Obama is not a natural born citizen, he’ll be impeached for his misdemeanor and possibly go to jail over the matter if he falsely swore anything. I’m not holding my breath over it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:23 pm 297. misanthropicus:

RE #282/Herb: [...] See, specifically the part where Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, confirms that his birth certificate is valid. [...]”
“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said. [...]”

herb, you red herrings purveyor: this is legalese. And what Fukino says is JUST that they have Soetero’s original birth certificate, and nothing else. Certificate which can list Soetero’s place of birth anywhere in the world, from Ushuhaia, to Kenya, to Verhoiansk etc.
herbie, can’t you come with something better? really, you trolls are so unimaginative – errr, disciplined actually, you march in locked step and sing in unison.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:31 pm 298. robotech master:

Maybe TMLutas… Maybe… However I have serious doubts… in fact even if obama was proven beyond any shadow of doubt to have been born in kenya… filed false citizenship to get college benefits… failed to register for the selective service… I highly doubt he will be impeached… at least not well into his term.. the trial will likely not finish until long after he has left office.

Short of civil war(and even highly unlikely in that case) obama will become president… He will also likely finish his term…(in some fashion anyway). He’s already won this isn’t a matter of trying to stop obama its not possible, this is a matter for history and for fixing the damage he will cause… and hopefully to prevent future “obamas” from pulling the same trick.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:44 pm 299. cedarford:

281 Jason – …even a child of TWO U.S. citizens has citizenship from birth but is not a “native born citizen”. If Obama was born outside the U.S. to an American mother he is not eligible, period.
Dec 5, 2008 – 7:53 pm

Funny, I didn’t see a pile of Truther idiots arguing McCain was unfit..

Part of the problem is Truthers remain ignorant that there was no jus solis citizenship for Americans until 1868, 75+ years after the Constitution was adopted. Prior to that it was “jus sanguinis” citizenship of the blood, that counted for being native born, with the Founders Exception written in. And the 14th Amendment had no words extinguishing past “native-born” citizenship solely based on blood, as they added the clause of “born in the states” to give slaves born to non-citizens the right to citizenship (jus solis)…

***************

robotech master – The end run is this… while it may not prove that he is not able to POTUS it may prove that he has broken a host of laws and would quickly end of in jail…

Another Truther moron who thinks crimes must surely exist absent any court “evidence” proving innocence and surely “he would quickly end up in jail,” thanks of course, to crusading Truthers out for “justice”…conveniently disregarding that even if the Truther morons were right, statute of limitations have long ago expired…

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:49 pm 300. misanthropicus:

To REG, Herb, Cedarford, Hurley and all other Soeterotrolls on duty here:

You guys, you keep saying that this discussion is nonsense, that everybody (who’s not on your side) is a loon, etc. etc.
Now explain this – since this is your assessment, why don’t you take your toys and go away? Why do you waste your time and energy on a issue you know so well that it’s doomed and can attract only some nuts’ interest?
Wouldn’t that be the logical action of the monuments of intelligence that you are?
Yet, you keep returning, watching, intervening, trying to stop the coallescence of a trend – so, the the logical conclusion is that… yes, Virgiania, there is a gun, and the barrel is still smoking!
I thank you for enforcing (albeit unwittingly) everybody’s belief that there is indeed something rotten in this Soetero affair.
So, don’t go away, keep circling – we appreciate your energizing support.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:50 pm 301. robotech master:

O poor cedarford…. First I do in fact think that mccain should be rereviewed on his issues….

Its nice how the government is suppose to require evidence of his citizenship status… REQUIRED however you are quick to say his word is good enough… Why is my word not good enough? Truthers like you flee before the light and facts… as well as having your own arguments turn against you… you have failed in every way like your truther friends to submit 1 single piece of proof that obama is legally allowed to be POTUS… on the other hand tons and tons of facts and connections have been made casting massive doubt on obama’s birth status…Run… go play with your global warming and flat eathers friends your factless whines are just taking up space here.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:57 pm 302. Hankmeister:

In my view, constitutionally, the only burden of proof that must be satisfied falls on Barack Obama, not his critics (us). Enough questions have been raised about Mr. Obama’s birth status that it requires him to produce the bona fides that would put this question to rest. He and only he can do this, “officials” vouching for this or that is pure smokescreen.

Therefore, in the interest of satisfying the constitutional requirement of being “natural born”, Mr. Obama would be prudent and responsible to immediately release his vault Certificate of Live Birth for public inspection. His footdragging brought this upon himself.

And keep in mind, Hawaiian officials have already claimed that the document exists, so I ask, WHY WON’T YOU RELEASE THE DAMN THING FOR PUBLIC INSPECTION, thereby putting this whole question to rest, sir?

BTW, Rick, we aren’t suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome. In fact, I wish this whole issue had never came about, but here we are today, faced with a Presidential candidate who refuses to verify his true birth status vis a vis a bona fide vault certificate of live birth.

We’re not creating a conspiracy out of thin air. We’re only asking that Mr. Obama simply produce a document that is said by certain Hawaiian muckety-mucks to exist that would prove he is constitutional qualified to hold THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND. It’s not like he was running for dog catcher, we are talking about a man becoming the President of the most powerful country on the planet that is supposedly a constitutional republic, you know, a land governed by laws and legal documents.

If he can’t or won’t show legal document(s) germane to the constitutional position to which he has been elected, then what does that say about the man? I certainly won’t see him as a “defender of the Constitution” or “my President” until he does so. No sir!

And if one more Obama shill continues ignoring the differences between a naturalized citizen, a U.S. citizen, and a natural-born citizen, then I respectfully suggest they get a refund from whatever school they graduated from because they obviously didn’t get their money’s worth.

Also, for you barrack room lawyers on the left, please note: No legitimate facsimile of an Obama “birth certificate” has been produced that even approximates what nearly 300 million other Americans must have resting in the various county repositories that house such things. If you shills can’t recognize the weasel words of the Hawaiian officials when they merely said they saw Obama’s birth certificate and it was “legitimate”, then I have some oceanview property in Arizona to sell you.

Sure the birth certificate may be “legitimate” in that it is archived within their jurisdiction, possibly even with a Hawaiian seal on it. But as others have already pointed out, it may legitimately say he was born in Kenya and he was one of hundreds of thousands of babies able to get a Hawaiian birth certificate. A U.S. citizen, most probably … natural-born, not proven in the least.

And I bet dollars to donuts those “officials” probably don’t even know what constitutes a “natural born citizen” except to say that the child was born “naturally” and a document of that “natural birth” can be found in their files … somewhere.

Mr. Obama can easily end this whole thing (I’m confident everyone here would be satisfied once the proper forensics was performed on the document in question) by producing that vault birth certificate, you will find your argument won’t be with us “right-wing nutcases” but rather with the Constitution itself.

Unfortunately we can’t look to SCOTUS for any guidance on this issue because they are a bunch of gutless peacocks who care more about the Washington party circuit and legislating from the bench than they do interpreting the Constitution in accordance with the founders’ original intent.

Given Mr. Obama’s and his shill’s pretty clever smoke-and-mirrors routine which has even Mr. Moran bamboozled, the elephant in the room is this: Why has Obama spent over $800,000 to obfuscate this issue of where precisely he was born, what doctor delivered him and in what hospital. Or the possibly exists it might have something to do with what he considers to be embarassing, like his mother not actually being married at the time. But I can’t believe in this day and age the latter scenario would be what’s driving Mr. Obama to not release the actual vault certificate in question and it’s even more whacky to suggest that this is all some calculation on his part to embarass all us “right-wing truthers” who simply want proof of his natural-born status now that he’s stirred the pot beyond the boiling point. Obama and his documented obfuscations are to blame, not us.

Why all the suspense when all he has to do is release his bona fides? After all, he’s ONLY going to be President of the United States for the next four years.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:08 pm 303. Alan Kellogg:

Ah, the bile is running deep this year. Looks like the Ron Paul crowd has found something new to have a tizzy about. Yo, twoofers, you do realize that if Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, then neither is John McCain.

BTW, From Title 8,1401 comes . . .

a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person

Insofar as his mom was 18 at the time of Barack’s birth, and his conception took place in U.S. territory, Barry isn’t just merely American, he’s really most sincerely American.

[snark]neener, neener[/snark]

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:16 pm 304. Alan Kellogg:

robotech master, #301

The problem is not that we’re not presenting evidence you can accept, it’s that we’re not presenting evidence you will accept. Do you post IDist malarky on Pharyngula threads? You sound just like an IDiot.

Read Title 8,1401 of the U.S. Code of Justice sometime. It says what it means, and it means what it says. Post modernism and deconstructionism have nothing to do with the matter.

Or should we just accept you as the liar and fraud you’ve so plainly shown yourself to be.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:25 pm 305. Rachel Peepers:

If it’s inconvient to follow the law, Democrats have a history of ignoring it.

From something as seemingly insignificant as Hillary electioneering last Nov. 4th to serious stuff like two Kennedy’s leaving the scenes of accidents, to a President lying under oath (Bill) to a Presidential candidate not producing an original birth certificate (obviously because there’s something on it he doesn’t want people to see).

However in Barack’s case, when the government was so incompetent by failing to insist Barack produce an original birth certificate, the inaction, from my point of view, amounts to an implied acceptance of Barack’s eligibility, especially this far along in the election process.

As to Rick Moran’s column and arguments, the way I see it, he presented us with butchered logic and perhaps misstatements of facts. On the “where there’s smoke there’s fire” legal theory, early on, Barack should have been forced to produce an original birth certificate.

By the same token, if the Republicans come up with a terrific candidate someday who’s eligibility is questioned which could be cleared up with the production of an original birth certificate, I don’t want any Dems to come crying that a failure to produce affects the candidacy. What’s good for the goose is good for the Republicans.

From now on, the legal requirement to produce an original birth certificate is null and void.
At least that’s Rachel’s legal opinion.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:36 pm 306. Steve Angell:

McCain produced his BC and allowed reporters to handle it to make sure it was authentic and allowed them to bring experts if they wanted. Barack has not done this.

Goldwater was born in AZ before it was a state. This was adjudicated in court where he won because the question is loyalty from birth to the US. Since he was born to American parents in American Arizona Territory he had always had allegiance to America.

I do not question that Barack was born in Hawaii and will assume for this that he was.

Barack fails this natural born test on at least two levels. He was born a British Citizen to a British/Kenyan father. He was adopted by an Indonesian step-father thus an Indonesian citizen. He had an Indonesian passport to move to Hawaii to go to school. He went to college and in 1981 traveled to Indonesia (why? his mom was no longer there and he doesn’t say in his book he visited his step-father). Best guess is he renewed his Indonesian Passport thus asserting Indonesian citizenship renouncing American citizenship by definition. There is no record of him having an American Passport at that time and he could have not gone on to stay three weeks in Pakistan with an American Passport anyway.

There is no indication he registered for Selective Service (except a fake form). But then to he didn’t need to as an Indonesian citizen. When he ran for office he needed a COLB so he either did what many illegals do and got a forgery or he lied and applied for one from Hawaii failing to tell them he renounced his American Citizenship. Of course he could have also immigrated to America fairly easily with an American Mother. Then gotten his Hawaiian BC amended.

Think of this. Barack was adopted by his Step father and lived with him for a dozen years or so mostly in Indonesia. Does that not at least hold out the possibility that he might have some allegiance to Indonesia? At the time Indonesia was very hostile to America and is hostile to us to this day to some extent. Barry could have not attended school there as an American and was registered as an Indonesian Muslim.

The whole purpose of requiring a natural born citizen is to make sure the President has an allegiance only to America. This is so questionable with Barack. He maintained close ties with Kenya and they celebrate him as their American President already creating a Holiday there for him. Is this not allegiance to Kenya is some form? He has maintained ties to Indonesia after living most of his childhood there indicating allegiance there.

I don’t want a President I think has Americans best interest at heart I want one I know does. Just like the writers of the constitution and 14th amendment.

Would we want a King of another country to be our President? NO. Thus the requirement. We also don’t want a man to be President and thinking about any other Country but America.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:37 pm 307. Rachel Peepers:

On the OJ trial.

Did you notice when the killer tried to get emotional, he couldn’t get himself to weep.

Does anybody know what that reinforces about what many believe OJ is?

The answer is: sociopath, unable to feel significant emotion, especially for others, even for himself.

The guy’s a nutcase, and was such from the moment the sperm sprinted to the unfertilized egg.

Anybody know that he’s functionally illerterate. He can read, but can’t write.

He lives in a purely verbal world. For him to get off scot free after slaughter two people like he does it for a living, was amazing, and gave him feelings of invincibility.

if you come into contact with his world, and in his mind you wronged him, you’re in danger of being kidnapped at the least, and, worst case scenario, in danger of being shot to death.

I predict OJ survives his jail time in Nevada and is out May of 2017. And we never hear from him again until he dies in a firey car crash in California driving off a mountain side road. On purpose? Undoubtedly. Life will become too painful to live.

Did I feel sorry for OJ talking to the judge? Yeah. I did. Didn’t want to but I did.

At the same time, if I was part of the goldman family I’d pay some guard in jail to kill him, cook his intestions and serve some high seasoned spaghetti.
Regards.
Rachel PS
If hurley ever responds to me, please one of your guys, locate him, find, beat him up and put a bullet in his left knee. Then I’ll do something for you. Or have one of my friends do it who need a quick bucks. rachel b

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:01 am 308. sarainitaly:

I really don’t know where or when he was born, but I do care that Obama refuses to reveal his official birth certificate. Full disclosure my a**. I think, we the people, have a right to see this document from ANY person wanting to be POTUS.

And as far as derangement syndrome, this to me seems completely legit – it IS a requirement for the job, after all…

But THIS: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/12/a-fourth-pictur.html ???

That is truly deranged.

Request for proof of eligibility for POTUS, not so much.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:22 am 309. cedarford:

Michelle Malkin noted that the anti-Palin Truthers are back at it, too, this week. One nutball has produced on his website a “fake pregnancy belly” prothesis he found for sale somewhere and demanded that Palin provide her detailed financial records proving conclusively that she bought no such prothesis, and reiterated Truther demands the Palin produce the original “Travis” Birth Certificate.

Yah, it seems so simple…why won’t Palin do what Left wing Truthers demand of her? What is she afraid of? Why not just hand over her gynecological and financial records as demanded? Why not show the Birth Certificate and submit to DNA tests of herself and her baby as Thuthers tried suing for…what is Palin afraid of? Such simple things to do to make the Lefty Truthers happy and even cut down on some of their lawsuits against Palin…

To anyone with more common sense than a syrofoam cup – the answers are quite obvious.

First, Palin will not surrender her privacy to ideological train wrecks trying to blackmail her with how they only wish she “loved the Constitution as they do”, only cared about “rule of law” as much as they do.

And, second, she knows that the more ticked off she makes Andrew Sullivan and his Lefty band of psychopathic Truther assholes, the more America likes her. Nothing endears the Center of America more to a politician than them noting the country has big, big problems they are trying to focus on and they have no time or patience to deal with fringe crackpots pet causes.
The results on Sullivan have been impressive – he is now marginalized and laughed at as an hysterical gay queen who believes in conspiracies. And Palin is lauded for the gumption to stand up to the Truther whack-jobs and basically tell them to f*ck off.

Obama is having the same fun as Palin, but watching Right-Wingers discredit themselves instead.
With any luck he will stretch this out to the Inauguration.
(1)Because Lefties ticked he is going to the Center will rally to him if they see frothing at the mouth Obama-haters trying to de-legitimize the 1st black President.
(2)The more the Truthers go on, the more chance he has of tarnishing conservative Republicans who the Right-Wing Truthers come from, in the eyes of the general public, which detests zealot nutballs. (Especially in high crisis times like now when they expect people to join together in common cause, and are fed up with the Haters).
(3) As long as hating whack-jobs can be spotlighted, it makes everything coming out of Obama’s mouth (and She Murdered Vince Foster!!) Hillary’s mouth sound reasonable by comparison.

**********************
Angell – Barack fails this natural born test on at least two levels. He was born a British Citizen to a British/Kenyan father. He was adopted by an Indonesian step-father thus an Indonesian citizen. He had an Indonesian passport to move to Hawaii to go to school. He went to college and in 1981 traveled to Indonesia (why? his mom was no longer there and he doesn’t say in his book he visited his step-father). Best guess is he renewed his Indonesian Passport thus asserting Indonesian citizenship renouncing American citizenship by definition. There is no record of him having an American Passport at that time and he could have not gone on to stay three weeks in Pakistan with an American Passport anyway

1. Doesn’t matter if one of his parents were of foreign citizenry or what another nation’s law says. He was born here, and his Mom was an American. He meets the jus sanguinis AND jus solis test. He never even thought of himself as British.
2. Doesn’t matter what he did in Indonesia or his parents did. By law, only he can renounce US citizenship after age 18, and he never did.
3. I keep hearing claims he had an Indonesian passport, but no proof. Where are the Truthers flying to Indonesia to see if it is so?
4. He travelled to Indonesia because his mom and half-sister lived there. Except when she was finishing up her PhD and when she was dying of cancer, Obama’s mother lived in Indonesia from 1965 onwards.
5. The Truthers say it was “impossible” to travel to Pakistan as a tourist 25 years ago. Not so. In fact, just 10 years ago a good friend of mine and his wife on tourist visa climbed in the Kush for two months with Pak mountaineers and reported the Paks they met were very friendly, pro-American, and hospitable. Don’t confuse today with the past.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:40 am 310. Ms Attitude:

To REG, Herb, Cedarford, Hurley and et all:

It is important to have a legal document presented as to Obama’s birth. If he’s been in office for any length of time and it is proven that he is not a natural born US citizen, then all of the laws he signed and all of the treaties, etc. that have his name on them will be mute. We will be a country without a leader, anarchy will reign. Different groups will claim the presidency and civil war will more than likely break out. But there’s a part of me that thinks that Obama would want this, because then he could seize power with the blind support of people like you and then be a dictator. Useful Idiots!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:14 am 311. Reggie:

8. Pat J:

What’s this on Newsmax that Obama wants to give a major speech in a Muslim country most likely Cairo after being elected?
————-
Umm. Cairo is a city in Egypt or a town in Illinois. Dumbass.

Dec 4, 2008 – 7:42 pm

The one in Illinois is pronounced “Karo.” Dumbass.

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:48 am 312. Pundit Joe:

I expect about the same percentage of folks that think that the birth certificate issue is productive probably also think Elvis is still alive. The birth certificate obsession makes our side look like ufo alien believing, granola munching, Bigfoot sexin’, nutbars of suffering.

There are so many other more profitable avenues we could pursue instead.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:17 am 313. Ann:

There is something significant illustrated in this whole COLB that is an underlying issue for this, but a major issue for life in these United States of America:

We don’t automatically believe what any bureaucracy or authority says any more for a very good reason–we’ve been lied to so many times.

This is not necessarily a juvenile response to the present situation. It may in fact be a very positive evidence that the faithful and hardworking population is finally beginning to put some energy in to their well-earned skeptcism.

It came as very good news to hubby and I this week that our 16 year old grandson has consciously acknowledged the emotional and physical abuse heaped on him by his biological mother who abandoned him several years ago. Should we now accuse him of being paranoid? Of making things up? No, sir. His fresh anger and demands of HER to account for herself speak of mental health.

So those of you who want to make US the issue–sorry, you got to me way too late. We are not the issue.

The OJ crap isn’t that much different, come to think of it. He skated the first time around, too, because everybody was afraid of being called a racist. Guess what? We’re not going to be intimidated by that any more.

I realize that our refusal to be intimidated by PC threats makes us racists!

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:22 am 314. Connecticut Lawyer:

Moran is right on. I am an active Republican, a campaigner for conservative causes, and I am utterly dismayed by these ridiculous attempts to throw over the election. It’s Obama Derangement Syndrome indeed.

No one here has come close to answering Moran’s question: Why plant a false birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper 47 years ago? Those who insist that someone actually did that – well, can you point us to another example, anywhere, in any newspaper, at any time, of a deliberate false birth announcement? It’s ridiculous, there’s no motive.

This whole event reminds me of the Dan Rather / Bush national guard story. When confronted with conclusive evidence (the typeface of the purported “documents”) of forgery, the true believers just dug their heels in and insisted that they knew it must be authentic because it reflected what they believed to be true. Here the true believers are confronted with conclusive evidence of authenticity (the 47-year-old newspaper announcement) and they are digging their heels in and insisting that what they “know” to be true must be so.

Please stop. You are making fools of yourselves and undermining the conservative movement.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:25 am 315. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: You STILL….

State officials said Saturday they have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate. — Herb

…throw out that business? When we’ve all known for a LONG time that ’state officials’ have been known to lie through their teeth.

And just yesterday, some ’state official’ was telling US how she had unwittingly accessed Joe the Plumbers child support records and how her ’state official’ boss told her to lie about it.

YOU may be a candidate for Densa. But don’t expect the rest of US to be such.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[My favorite mythical creature, an 'honest politician'.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:46 am 316. beavercleaver:

Moran misses the meaning of fill-in-the-blank Derangement Syndrome. It is based on those who hang onto their false beliefs about a candidate IN SPITE OF definitive evidence to the contrary. Palin Derangement Syndrome (PDS); in spite of verification of her being pregnant, and the impossibility of her daughter being pregnant with Trig in the time frame, PDS people still cling to the belief that she is not Trig’s mother, but his grandmother. That is a Derangement Syndrome.
This is not Obama Derangement Syndrome. Many of us right wingers who do not believe any of the right wing nonsense he mentions in his article are puzzled as to why BHO just does not provide the same information McCain provided and get this silliness done with. It is odd behavior about such an easily debunked notion. BHO, put it out there, get it behind you, and get on to the real business of raising our taxes, confiscating our guns, and killing unborn children.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:54 am 317. Chuck Pelto:

TO: jason, et al.
RE: The Koolaid!

Wow, Moran has really drunk the Obamamessiah Koolaid…. — jason

I think you’re onto something there.

When Rick Moran did his “He Will By My President” bit, he swore he would use his every sinew and blogging wit to challenge him.

However, with the very first and most important item he abdicates that business and instead comes to his support, at the risk of the Constitution.

And, instead of offering factual materials to refute the challenges offered over the birth certificate, he went right for the ad hom. So, at face value, all he was saying in that previous article was all lies and jest.

Thanks for reminding me of that.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. And on further reflection, I do believe I asked Rick some interesting questions about how far he would go in his criticism of The One and what he would do if The One cut him off from the internet for his temerity.

….I seem to recall that a number of those questions became part of ‘the Disappeared’. And that he NEVER answered them.

Now I think I understand why……

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:54 am 318. Mack:

Ok, I agree with you with one exception: the Annenberg Foundation is not ideologically the same as the late Walter Annenberg. They are seperate and distinct entities with quite disperate goals and ideological bents. I know you know that.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:02 am 319. jim123:

Moran sounds like the McCain of journalists. Spit on his allies to placate his enemies.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:04 am 320. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: What To Do

In light of the controversy here and the arguments that support that there is no evidence that has been presented to prove Obama is a natural-born citizen, in the face of the evidence provided that he was born in Kenya….

….there is one thing I think we can do about this matter. I mean something more pro-active than wearing out the internet trying to show these people who have nothing but ad homs to throw at US.

I do not recommend we write to the justices on the Supreme Court. I’m of the opinion that such petitioning makes the judges more political than I care for.

However, I DO RECOMMEND a group we CAN PETITION. We should petition the members of the Electoral College. And in that petition, we should ask them that THEY see a sworn to as bona fide, signed and forensically proven as reliable Hawaiian birth certificate proving he was born in the state of Hawaii on the date given.

And if no such document is given to them for their personal examination, then Obama is NOT made President of the United States.

They meet in Congress on Monday, 15 December 2008.

I’ve already asked my county Party to provide me with the names and contact information of the delegates from my state. I’ve also suggested they contact other county party organizations to provide the same to their membership.

I counsel all who read this and who want to uphold the Constitution of the United States to do the same in your county and state.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:05 am 321. Chuck Pelto:

[All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:05 am 322. Jim in KC:

Dear god, this is funny! The delusional crowd got their asses handed to them over 9/11, RuPaul didn’t get elected POTUS, so now they have to fix their paranoia on yet another stupid thing. How many times do you all have to be proven stupid before it begins to dawn on you that you are, in fact, stupid? Obama is the President. Get used to it or get over it. Your stamping of your tiny little feet and holding your breath until you turn blue isn’t going to do anything except show you to be the spoiled children you are.

WAAAAAA!!!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:16 am 323. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Alan Kellog
RE: Please TRY….

From Title 8,1401 comes . . .

a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions — Alan Kellog

…not to be such a total idiot.

On the one hand, the Panama Canal Zone where McCain was born was considered an ‘outlying possession’, when McCain was born there.

On the other hand, McCain did not win the office of President of the United States, and therefore your alleged ‘point’ is moot.

On the third hand, your ignorance is showing.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Stupid, n., Ignorant and proud of it.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:23 am 324. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: I Don’t Know….

….which is worse.

That Obama refuses to disclose a simple document….

….or all these people who hold the Constitution and the concept of Law to no account.

It could well be the latter, as they appear to be more pernicious and more delusional. Let alone being REALLY ’stupid’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. I blame the vaunted American public education system for giving US this ‘generation of vipers’ in our collective bosom.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:27 am 325. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Connecticut Lawyer
RE: Yeah?

Moran is right on. I am an active Republican, a campaigner for conservative causes, and I am utterly dismayed by these ridiculous attempts to throw over the election. — Connecticut Lawyer

Well…

…you sound like a liar to me.

What’s your REAL name and let me confirm the truthfulness of your claims to being (1) an active Republican, (2) a conservative and (3) a lawyer.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Redundant Term: Criminal Lawyer]

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:30 am 326. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Pundit Joe

….look like ufo alien believing, granola munching, Bigfoot sexin’, nutbars of suffering. — Pundit Joe

He’s projecting. And that business about ‘Bigfoot’ gives one cause to shudder. I suspect that susan’s question to Robert Hurley about a ’significant other’ might be at play with this guy.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Joe’s probably in the same ‘court’ with Connecticut Lawyer…..

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:35 am 327. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. Notice something about these people like Rick Moran, Robert Hurley, Herb and, of late, Pundit Joe?

None of them offer any evidence that stands up to the first brush with reality. And all they end up offering is ad hom insults.

Seriously…..

…these people are projecting when they call the rest of US ‘delusional’.

The REAL problem will begin of none of the departments of government can simply produce the proper document, which has been alleged to exist by ’state officials’ of Hawaii, that put all this to rest.

And the longer it goes on, the worse it will get. Especially if the document DOESN’T exist or DOESN’T prove Obama to be a natural-born citizen.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:45 am 328. Commentary » Blog Archive » Flotsam and Jetsam:

[...] chatter challenging whether President-elect Barack Obama was really born in the U.S. Others have voiced my view: this is nutty stuff brought to us by the crowd (literally in the person of lawyer Phillip [...]

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:08 am 329. B Dubya:

Chuck Pelto wins the thread!
He epitomizes that American Icon, the Rugged Individual. Persistant. I mean really persistant. Argumentative, quick on the offensive. Patton would be proud. All that never equalled federal service, I suppose…
Give it up for Chuck, folks.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:19 am 330. Thinking Person:

Question to those in the know… What happens in the event that after Obama’s coronation in January, the birth certificate shows he was ineligible? What would happen then? It’s scary to even contemplate really. I’m hoping Obama finds the nerve to produce the certificate before the electoral college meets. Not holding my breath though.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:41 am 331. Liberals Need Compassion « ULTIMATE TRUTH:

[...] the case of any terminal malady, no person who genuinely loves will turn their back on the sufferer. Thus, it is imperative that [...]

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:43 am 332. Bill:

I voted for McCain, and I am concerned about what Obama may do for (or to) the country. While the birth certificate controversy is fun and amusing, I am worried about the repercussions if an investigation finds that Obama really was born elsewhere.

1. Joe Biden would be president. Does anyone really want that?

2. There would probably be a rush to pass a constiutional amendment to allow naturalized citizens to become president.

I agree with Rick. Let’s try to keep the Obama Derangement Syndrome out of sight (make it your own personal secret). Use your efforts to be sure that the next election has a different result.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:52 am 333. Chris in Toronto:

Cloward-Piven

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:55 am 334. goy:

to Connecticut “Lawyer”:

Moran is right on. … No one here has come close to answering Moran’s question: Why plant a false birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper 47 years ago?

No. Moran is full of bilious crap. The question you cite is his pathetic straw man. And this article (and his past screeds) is nothing more than a vain attempt to build up his wannabe MSM bona fides by attacking conservatives who demand verifiable, objective proof; proof which – unlike the answer to the 9/11 Truthers’ question – does, in fact, exist in a vault in Hawaii. So his question, driven purely by sibling envy, doesn’t deserve a response.

You missed my post above, apparently – not to mention most of the rest of this thread. You don’t seem to understand the concept of burden of proof, which calls into question the veracity of your handle. However, given your doe-eyed trust in Moran’s fallacious attempts at rationalization and some bureaucrat’s irrelevant thesis, as a reluctant CT resident I can vouch for the fact that you’re probably being honest about the Connecticut bit, and a RINO to boot.

- NO ONE is trying to “throw over” the election.
- No credible skeptic on this issue has asserted that BHO’s COLB isn’t “valid”.

Take ALL of the various Obamas’ actions and statements into account. Realize that BHO is an arrogant narcissist and demonstrated consummate liar. His complete disregard for honesty places him on the antisocial borderline in this regard. Realize also that the entrenched media will never, ever pursue this issue with even 1/100th the zeal they applied in support of Dan Rather’s fake TANG documents – except perhaps to deflect criticism by demonizing those who demand objective, verifiable proof with the ad hominem “9/11 Truther” label (as many have done here). Apply Michelle Obama’s weird and ostensibly false statement about Ann Dunham being “very single” at the time of BHO’s birth (the record of her divorce from Obama Sr. in 1964 contradicts MO’s statement). Mix in BHO’s Kenyan relatives’ reported statements of having witnessed his birth in Mombasa. Note that the laws controlling birth records in Hawaii in 1961 did not require a child to be physically born there in order that a COLB be issued regarding their birth.

Remember that Obama’s candidacy appears to have been accelerated (for some strange reason) by at least 4-8 years. So, seemingly due to lack of time needed to create appropriately plausible explanations, there are numerous gaping holes in his past that have never been mentioned, let alone explored by the entrenched media. The Chicago Annenberg Challenge fiasco. BHO’s professional and political alliance with marxist Billy Ayers and communist Mike Klonsky. BHO’s sealed university records. BHO’s sealed COLB. The list goes on almost endlessly.

Got all that? Now pull out the Occam’s Razor attachment on your handy Swiss Army knife. Start cutting. You’ll find that the most likely scenario – and the simplest explanation for Obama’s dogged refusal to do the ONE THING that would answer this valid question – is as follows:

0. Ann Dunham married BHO’s father in Hawaii in Feb., 1961, in what was very likely a shotgun wedding: she was 3 months preggers at the time. At some point following the wedding – likely the summer following her first semester at UofH – she and BHO Sr. traveled to Kenya to meet his folks.
1. At the ripe old age of 18, Ann Dunham found herself too pregnant to travel back to Hawaii on her own, when BHO Sr. started making noises about not being interested in fatherhood (a stance he made good on the following year when he abandoned her and BHO). Ann (belatedly) realized that she wanted her son to be a U.S. citizen, but it was too late to go back to Hawaii.
2. Ann Dunham gave birth to BHO at Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya – very likely (but as yet only allegedly) on Aug 4, 1961 – just as BHO’s paternal grandmother and other Kenyan relatives have reportedly claimed.
3. As soon as she and her son were fit to travel, Ann Dunham flew to Hawaii.
4. In Hawaii, BHO’s birth was recorded per the laws in effect in 1961. The resulting COLB was – and is – perfectly “valid” in the State of Hawaii. That COLB has since been officially “sealed” by Governor Lingle for undisclosed reasons.
5. As was standard procedure for recorded COLBs in 1961, the record of BHO’s birth was communicated to the office of Vital Statistics and reported – again, through rote procedure – in the Advertiser column erroneously linked by Moran as “proof” that BHO was born in Hawaii.

No harm. No foul. No conspiracy. No “false” birth notice. Nothing whatsoever out of the ordinary. For 1961.

Fast forward to 2008, when BHO’s citizenship is called into question. When this question was raised regarding McCain’s natural-born citizenship, he immediately produced verified documentation to demonstrate his eligibility to be elected POTUS. Whenever this same question has been put to BHO – with far more compelling reasons – he has adamantly refused to do the one thing that would lay the question to rest: produce the vault copy of his COLB in exactly the same way McCain did. The question is “why?” and the answer is almost trivial if the perfectly plausible and innocent scenario above is accurate. If that scenario is even close, then the vault copy likely shows one of three things:

1. It lists no attestation from an attending physician, calling into question the validity of information Dunham provided for the COLB.
2. It lists his birth name as something other than Barack Obama, Jr. – the name which BHO has used throughout his life to garner minority status and credibility where it wasn’t completely warranted.
3. It shows BHO’s country of birth as Kenya, disqualifying him as an eligible candidate for POTUS.

Hopefully this is clear enough for you to understand, CL. Drawing an equivalence between skepticism on this issue and “9/11 Trutherism” is the height of an impotent argument, and it aligns perfectly with Moran’s past editorial exercises at throwing in the towel.

The fact is that the burden of proof for demonstrating eligibility to be elected POTUS under the U.S. Constitution is placed solely on Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. – not FactCheck.org, not DailyKos, not Snopes.com, not the Governor of Hawaii or one of her chosen bureaucrats, not a perfectly valid live birth notice listing that doesn’t identify the place of birth but only the jurisdiction of record, and not the unreliable word of BHO himself.

What makes this issue significant – and more glaringly so with each day that it’s not resolved in a Constitutional manner – is the ease with which it could be resolved. No one can make a valid claim that BHO has made a good faith effort to resolve this, since all that’s required is for him to simply release his sealed COLB.

The question is: why hasn’t he done so?

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:38 am 335. Pundit Joe:

Hi Chuck, I hope you are well, but I think you missed the point of my comment, and perhaps my humor. We don’t have to agree, but I want to make my position clear.

I don’t know for certain if Obama is eligible to hold the office of the president or not, but I‘m reasonably satisfied he is. Some smart folks that have earned my respect, such as Dennis Prager, Hugh Hewitt, and Michael Medved, all seem to think this is an unprofitable avenue to pursue – even if it does turn out that Obama is not a citizen.

Why do I think it is unprofitable?

First, he probably is a citizen. So, all of this hullabaloo will only serve to make many look foolish should this be borne out. Of course, at this point I doubt any proof would be sufficient to change the minds of some.

Second, challenges probably won’t make it through the courts. Seriously, what judge would want to be the one to tell the President-elect and the nation that the fella that solidly won the election cannot hold office? So, in the end, it serves no purpose – we waste a great deal of time, money for no gain.

Third, and perhaps most importantly – Should it be determined that he was not a natural born citizen – what then? We would have to toss out the results of the elction and have yet another election right? McCain won’t become the pres, so another election would be needed and we would be thrown into a huge constitutional crisis. We have to have a president and Bush’s term is up. Would Pelosi become the pres until such time as a special election could be held? I don’t know. Regardless, it would suck.

Most likely, in event Obama were found to not be a ineligible, then the government and the nation would probably simply decide to not enforce the law. Obama won the election and throwing out the results would enrage half of the populace in a way we have not ever seen and many on the conservative side would support the non-enforcement as simply as a way to avoid the chaos that would ensue. So, folks would then openly ignore the constitution.

Lastly, these efforts are extremely bad public relations. They come off as nutty and as sour grapes. And should Obama be declared ineligible for office, then much of the public would interpret such an event as stealing the election. With such a perception, any follow-up special election would undoubtedly result in the election of another Democrat. We would be back where we started, only with lower poll numbers.

So, I return to the point I made in my original post – This avenue is unproductive. It is a waste of our limited resources when there are so many other more profitable things we could do in the advancement of conservative values. We must choose our battles wisely.

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:46 am 336. cfbleachers:

Pundit Joe, I understand your point, I truly do.

I also really hope this turns out to be nothing. But, if you would be so kind as to answer this question.

What if.

What if, the outline presented very articulately by “goy” above, turns out to be the facts on the ground?

What if, President-elect Obama knew the truth, his upper level staff knew, several leading Democrats knew..and they all decided to hide the facts, in clear defiance of the Constitution?

What if, several members of our entrenched media knew and kept it secret in order to advance his election?

Nothing? This was the “will” of the people to knowingly elect someone who KNEW he was ineligible to run (in our hypothetical) and chose to disguise the fact….and our attitude ought to be “well, he ran and won, therefore we shouldn’t do anything”?

Is that really your position?

Because if it is…then, now more than ever…I want to uncover everything. What kind of precedent would it set to allow someone to run for the highest offices in our land and make up their own rules to obey and avoid at their whim? What material facts to disclose and what material facts to suppress? Or do you believe that “whatever you can get away with, as long as you have a conspiratorial media and one party willing to help you cheat…is fair game”?

Is that your position in our hypothetical?

The media in your pocket can alternatively put you on magazines with red eyes and make you look evil and dangerous, can poke into your background with impunity, can FORGE documents about your military service….or it can blockade inquiry into whether you are constitutionally eligible to even run for office…is that what you would like to see in this country?

Again, understand my position outside the hypothetical. I am hoping this is absolutely nothing. But go read the “goy” comment at #336 again. It is the best outline to date on the subject in my opinion. Bar none. Even my own.

IF…and I emphasize the hypothetical nature of my discussion with you again…IF…it’s true, is it your position that there is absolutely nothing that should come of it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:40 am 337. Peter the Sub Guy:

196. Jeff Weimer wrote:
to Peter the Sub Guy from Jeff the Target guy:
Pakistan was an ally during the cold war, it wouldn’t have been impossible to go there, even if it would not necessarily have been safe.

Peter responds:
My understanding of the situation, at the time in question, Pakistan was an ally of the Soviets during the Cold War, and it was actually illegal, not just dangerous, for US citizens to travel to Pakistan at the time in question. Unless you can find me (reliable) proof to the contrary, I must go by what I have read.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:42 am 338. Peter the Sub Guy:

196. Jeff Weimer wrote:
to Peter the Sub Guy from Jeff the Target guy:
Same for Indonesia.

Peter responds:
The issue with Indonesia is not that he traveled there, it is, by his own admission (read The One’s books) that he was a STUDENT there, something you could not do as the laws existed at the time, unless you were a citizen of Indonesia. Look it up.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:44 am 339. Peter the Sub Guy:

202. e. nonee moose wrote:
What more proof do you need? You may as well be challenging John McCain’s American birth.

Peter responds:
McCain’s American birth WAS challenged, by The One’s followers. He immediately provided the proof. Why won’t The One? What, if not a foreign birth, is he hiding?1?

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:50 am 340. BMoon:

Assuming that pursuing Obama’s birth certificate may be “an unprofitable” avenue, and giving the benefit of the doubt to the doubters, it is nevertheless an absurd catapult fling of fancy to compare that question to the vast pandemic phenomena of BDS dementia the Left has spread throughout US culture and media for eight years.

Rick, have you no sense of perception, depth, or balance?

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:53 am 341. Peter the Sub Guy:

208. Jeff Weimer wrote:
same question came up about McCain – he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. He was born to two US Citizens outside the US. It still makes him “Natural Born”, as it pertains to the law and (thus) the Constitution. If you are born a Citizen, you are “Natural Born”, you were never anything else.

Peter replies: Wrong again. McCain was a ‘natural born US citizen’ because he was born on an American military base, sorverign US territory. Not because both his parents were US citizens. He could have been born to two Dominicans, but as long as the birth occurred on a US military base in Panama, he’s still a US natural born citizen.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:57 am 342. Peter the Sub Guy:

213. Herb wrote:
Wow, some of the comments here are hilarious. And not in a good way. Especially the reliable Chuck Pelto.
Is there a raised seal????? Dude…..

Peter replies: Dude, do you even know what a raised seal is? Most official government paperwork is worthless without one.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:00 am 343. Herb:

robotech master: “before you post the same crap that as been debunked.” Uh….what are you talking about, dude? The only thing I’ve seen debunked here is this nonsense that Obama fabricated an identity to take over the United States. Either you don’t know you’re proving that Moran’s thesis of “Obama Derangement Syndrome” or you don’t care.

Misantrhopicus: “you red herrings purveyor: this is legalese. And what Fukino says is JUST that they have Soetero’s original birth certificate, and nothing else.” For one: Who the hell is Soetero? I thought we were talking about Obama. Step outside the conspiracy theory and join us in the real world for a minute.

Fukino actually says this: “Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.” Do you know what “in accordance with state policies and procedures” means??? That it’s legit. That it’s the DEFINITION of legit.

What more do you need?

Also this is funny: “You guys, you keep saying that this discussion is nonsense, that everybody (who’s not on your side) is a loon, etc. etc.”

Everybody who’s not on my side? What side are you talking about? The side that acknowledges that Obama is a natural-born citizen? That’s not a side, dude. This isn’t some kind of political debate.

This is a debate between people who accepts facts, and those who don’t. Obama is an American citizen! He has been his entire life. Why is so hard for you to accept that?

Ms Attitude: “It is important to have a legal document presented as to Obama’s birth.” Yes, it is. And trust me on this one, okay. The guy could not go through life, from school, to a job, to public office, without having that legal document. Perhaps…perhaps a charlatan can slip through 40 some years of car registrations and loan applications and paychecks without that legal document, but it’s very VERY unlikely. So don’t worry about his treaties being “mute,” okay?

Ad finally to Chuck, paranoid without reason, who says: “When we’ve all known for a LONG time that ’state officials’ have been known to lie through their teeth.”

Yes, I suppose it is possible that the “state officials” are indeed lying. They could be “in on it,” so politically warped that a bureaucrat is going to falsify documents, make false statements, and cover up some decades-in-the-making fraud. But before we entertain that suspicion, let’s just assume that the bureacrat is a bureacrat, doing their job, crossing their Ts and dotting their Is. You should try it. You might not hate your country so much.

I love this part, too: “None of them offer any evidence that stands up to the first brush with reality.”

Where’s your evidence, Chucklehead? When presented with official evidence, you say the official is lying. Either you know something you’re not sharing, or you have no idea what you’re talking about! (Put me down for the latter.)

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:09 am 344. Peter the Sub Guy:

225. Jeff Weimer wrote:
Aagh, you all assume he’s born elsewhere, PROVE IT. Without that, you don’t have nothing on which to stand. There’s more, real, legal evidence he was born in Hawaii, and NONE he didn’t (someone posted that another said an unnamed Grandmother SWEARS he was born in Kenya doesn’t meant a darn thing). So prove he didn’t.

Peter responds: We are assuming NOTHING. I’m not stating as fact that The One was born in Kenya, but likewise, I have just as little to no proof that he was born in the US either! That is the WHOLE POINT we’ve been trying to make. Questions have been raised, and these questions could be so easily answered and refuted if he would only show the vault copy of his original Birth Certificate. Yes, there is no proof he’s foreign born, yet show me the proof that he is US born!

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:10 am 345. Peter the Sub Guy:

230. Jeff Weimer wrote:
Ella:
He was unable to renounce, he wasn’t 18.

Peter responds: Then obviously someone of legal stature renounced for him. Either way, same result.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:16 am 346. Dave:

It is disappointing that a PJM blogger would write a piece such as this without doing one speck of research into the actual subject matter.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:21 am 347. Peter the Sub Guy:

236. Herb wrote:
Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it?

Peter responds: Maybe because politicians have been known to lie? Maybe because those politicians have not given a straight answer? Saying he has a ‘certified certificate’ is not the same as saying he has a ‘certified certificate that states clearly and precisely that The One was born in the State of Hawai’i.’ Maybe because The One has lied or hidden just about everything else pertaining to his life that some people would like this one question cleared up? Is that enough reason for you?

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:21 am 348. Peter the Sub Guy:

236. Herb wrote:
Chuck, Where’s YOUR birth certificate? Why haven’t you made it public?

Peter responds:
A: Chuck hasn’t run or been elected to the highest office in the land, but…
B: I’m sure if he were he would have no problem releasing his Birth Certificate instead of hiring three law firms to block all attempts to make it public, spending millions of dollars to do it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:23 am 349. cedarford:

Goy to CT Lawyer – You don’t seem to understand the concept of burden of proof, which calls into question the veracity of your handle.

Oh, I think he understands “burden of proof” quite well. In the United States, any dickhead can make an accusation. It does not fall legally, though, that the accused has any “burden of proof” unless an official 3rd Party intervenes and states the accusation must be met with evidence. Typically, the burden of proof falls to the accuser.

Goy then presents his conjecture of how The Secret Kenyan Birth happened:

A mismash of a rumored statement of one aunt now becoming something like “several” in the Obama clan “witnessing” the birth..which Goy puts somewhere in Mombasa even though Obama’s village is closer to Nairobi. And his idea of the “logic” behind a poor young woman of modest means travelling to Africa 8 months prenant on a hugely expensive (at the time) air junket, getting “trapped” there, forced to give birth…then of course heading back with infant in tow to “trick” customs and Hawaiian officials into altered official records, fake calls from the hospital on births, etc.

Pure Truther stuff.

**************
Joe Pundit – Nice post. Good illustration of the aftermath of how conservative Republicans would be perceived if we don’t distance ourselves from the Truthers. Either the Right-Wing Truthers lose and look like assholes, or they derail the 2008 Election and create One Ugly Scene in America in the midst of a shattered economy and growing internal and external dangers.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:28 am 350. Peter the Sub Guy:

239. B-Rob wrote:
Let me tell you how I would prove my birthplace. My mom is alive (Dad, sadly, is not) but her mother was at my birth and she died in the mid 1970s. The ob/gyn who delivered me died about 15 years ago from cancer. So how do I prove my place of birth hyp[othetically assuming my mom was dead? Well, I have a birth certificate and there is a birth announcement in my local newspaper. Funny . . . that’s the same thing Obama has . . . .

Peter replies: And I’ll bet you, B-Rob, that your official birth certificate says where, date and time you were born? Probably even the hospital (if you were born in one) and the attending physician. I know mine does. And everyone is pretty sure The One’s does too, but does it say he was born in Hawai’i or Kenya or somewhere else? That is what everyone here (well, maybe not everyone) would like to know.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:29 am 351. robotech master:

To expand on miss Ms Attitude and to answer Pundit Joe.

If Barack is found ineligible any laws or actions by the government can be challenged…Most of all any laws he passed. Not only that but to include any court ruling, any business transactions… Grasp this were not talking millions of law suits… Were talking Billions.

Anyone will be able to legally challenge any action taking during and even after obama leave office. While it is likely many actions will stay(after months of battle in courts) many will however not. Do you understand that the IRS will have to redo 4 years of taxes… that they will have to send refunds to some ppl and charge other ppl more… to include companies/businesses… do you understand what type of mess that will be even if no one files a lawsuit in that mess.

Do you understand that everything all the way done to a speeding ticket could be challenged depending on the laws that obama passing…. Our government will be paralyzed for years maybe decades trying to undo the damage.

You say that they will likely not enforce the law… I would tend to agree with that… however it means that civil war will happen… and the first attacks and arrests made will claim that if obama doesn’t have to obey the law and the highest law at that the Constitution… why do we have to follow petty state or federal laws. Ppl will stop paying taxes and the courts will be so back logged from all the law suits anyway that its unlikely that criminals will be processed fast… which means that they could demand to be released for failure to be given a speedy trial.

This is a serious matter… only a simple minded fool couldn’t see the outcomes should obama even SEEM ineligible… just the hint alone could cause massive problems in the future.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:34 am 352. Peter the Sub Guy:

242. B-Rob wrote:
Oh, that’s right. You said it was not a “birth certificate” . . . but a “record of birth” as if that is different. My bad .

Peter responds:
That is the very point we’re making! IT IS different. Anyone, legal or illegal, could get a record of birth in Hawai’i at the time, perhaps even still today. What has been released doesn not give a LOCATION of birth, HOSPITAL of birth, ATTENDING PHYSICIAN at birth. A certified birth certificate would! Why hasn’t the doctor that deleivered The One come forward and said, ‘Hey, I was there!’ His grandmother apparently did, except inconvieniently she said it happened in Kenya. That is the basis for all this confusion.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:34 am 353. Chuck Pelto:

TO: B Dubya
RE: Gee….

He epitomizes that American Icon, the Rugged Individual. — B Dubya

Thanks.

Persistant. I mean really persistant. — B Dubya

Something referred to as “maintenance of the objective”. Don’t be distracted by diversions such as Rick’s.

Argumentative, quick on the offensive. — B Dubya

True. Something to do with knowing that the logical outcome of defensive warfare is ‘defeat’. So, as Patton would put it, “L’adace! Toujours l’adace!”

Patton would be proud. — B Dubya

Speaking of whom. He was something of an inspiration in my military career. Although I was a gravel agitator, I was always rather ‘offensive’ in my demeanor. Indeed, one senior officer described my sense of ‘tact’ as, “He attacked.” Another said, all that he needed to do was give me general guidance and turn me loose on the objective.

[Note: And you thought I had no ‘sense of humor’.]\

All that never equalled federal service, I suppose…. — B Dubya

Does 27 years wearing the ‘Green’ equate to ‘federal service’?

And you thought I had no ‘sense of humor’.

RE: A Sense of Yuma

Pelto, take a quarter and go make a down payment on a sense of humor.. — B Dubya

Been there. Done that. Got the scars to prove it.

And I’d rather invest the money in that booklet available at Amazon.com on How to Build Your Own Bazooka.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Peace means having a bigger stick than the other guy. -- Tony Stark, Iron Man]

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:48 am 354. Ms Attitude:

316. Connecticut Lawyer: “No one here has come close to answering Moran’s question: Why plant a false birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper 47 years ago? Those who insist that someone actually did that – well, can you point us to another example, anywhere, in any newspaper, at any time, of a deliberate false birth announcement? It’s ridiculous, there’s no motive.”

I was born over forty years ago in a US Territory, my birth announcement was in my mom’s home town newspaper in GA….The birth announcement in a newspaper is not proof!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:50 am 355. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Cedarford and the Republicans

Good illustration of the aftermath of how conservative Republicans would be perceived if we don’t distance ourselves from the Truthers. — cedarford

If cedarford is, indeed, a Republican, I’d say it looks like there’s going to be a war inside the Party. Especially over this matter.

Why?

Well because my county Party organization is calling for the same evidence of Obama’s status being provided. The secretary has organized a petition drive aimed at the SCOTUS. [Note: AS I stated earlier, I don't think that approach is appropriate.]

However, if cedarford thinks that asking for a simple piece of paper qualifies someone as being a ‘lunatic’, and he claims to be a Republican, there’s certainly going to be some internecine action this coming year.

Whether it brings the Republican Party back to its Reagan-esque roots or turns it into Democrat-Lite we’ll have to see.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Who cares who wins, as long as it's a good puncher. -- Unofficial motto of the British SAS]

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:55 am 356. Herb:

Peter the Sub Guy, Um…you do realize that the Director of Hawaii’s Health Department Dr. Fukino vouches for the validity of Obama’s birth certificate, right? Tell me how this connects logically.

1) Politicians have been known to lie.
2) The Director of Hawaii’s Health Department is lying.

Also, you do realize that legally, the birth certificate can only be released to certain people under certain conditions, right? Let me repeat them for you to dispel you of your ignorance:

* the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
* the registrant’s spouse;
* the registrant’s parent(s);
* a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
* a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);
* a legal guardian of the registrant;
* a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
* a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
* a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
* adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
* a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
* a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
* a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

Do you fit the criteria? No? Then the state has no obligation to release the birth certificate to you. It’s the law.

And sorry, bub, but we still live in a society where even our public figures are entitled to private records. Accept it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:57 am 357. Rashputin:

Pundit Joe – “Lastly, these efforts are extremely bad public relations.”

You’ve got to be kidding. You may like the image of lying in your shallow grave, clawing dirt onto yourself from around the edges, in hopes of getting a grin from those using a backhoe to bury you, but I don’t.

The conservatives and republicans in this country cannot point to a single time that the media treated them even fairly, yet they worry about PR. The last time the media acted even nearly reasonable towards a republican was while Johnson was relying on Everett Dirksen to pass the Civil Rights Act. Since then, the media has never been even handed. This past election cycle they’ve been so obviously actively working for the democrat party that it makes me wonder about the sanity of anyone who worries about “public relations” no matter what the topic. Ask McCain how being cozy with the press works the next time the two of you are sharing a bottle of cheap wine behind the old losers home.

Screw public relations, do the right thing. The right thing in this case (after the gall democrats have shown by running this guy without his records on hand) is to demand that theproof be produced. Period. I hope they have a nice photo of Obama coming out of the womb into the arms of a great big Hawaiian doctor in front of the main Post Office in Honolulu. They still need to be part of the public record.

Have a nice day

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:58 am 358. Ms Attitude:

345. Herb:”The guy could not go through life, from school, to a job, to public office, without having that legal document. Perhaps…perhaps a charlatan can slip through 40 some years of car registrations and loan applications and paychecks without that legal document, but it’s very VERY unlikely. So don’t worry about his treaties being “mute,” okay?”

We have not seen his school records–in the US our K-12 schools are open to anyone including Kenyans…he does not need to be a US citizen to work in the US and he has never presented his birth certificate for any of the public offices he held. as for the car registrations and loan applications and paychecks…hate to break it to you, but you do not need a birth certificate for any of that. You need to wake up!!! Useful Idiot!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:59 am 359. Peter the Sub Guy:

261. Herb wrote:
Chuck, Keep barking at the moon, bud. If the State of Hawaii says he was born in the state of Hawaii, you should just accept it

Peter responds: And once again Herb misses the entire point of this thread. The State of Hawai’i has NOT said Obama was born in Hawai’i. Thay have said he has a valid certificate of live birth on record. COMPLETELY different things. Please show me where ANY government official in Hawai’i has said “Yes, Barack Hussain Obama was born in the State of Hawai’i on…” whatever his birthdate is.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:02 am 360. Peter the Sub Guy:

268. Aham wrote:
Hmm. Under theories propounded in these comments, it would appear that our first 9 presidents, through William Henry Harrison, were unconstitutional because they were not born in the United States, but in colonies of Britain.

Peter replies: Aham needs to read better, because the stated article of the Constitution states the person needs to be a natural born citizen or “A citizen at the time the Contitution is ratified,” making all those first Presidents born in the American colonies legal to become so by the Constitution.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:05 am 361. Ms Attitude:

And another thing Mr. Herb…I have been unable to locate my birth certificate for over 10 years. In that time frame, I attended college, obtained employment at two different locations including the Federal Government. Never once have I been requested to produce my birth certificate. I have a drivers licsence and purchased a home….sooooo, your point would be what????

US Optional Form 612, Application for Federal Employment–Section F, Question 1a. Are you a U.S. Citizen?
I have never been questioned about answering yes on this….but if I ever am I will be contacting Guam to send a certified birth certificate. See how easy it would be for Obama to do the same?…the only difference would be that the Federal Government would terminate me if I didn’t produce it…for not proving that I did not lie on the application!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:12 am 362. Peter the Sub Guy:

283. Herb wrote:
See, specifically the part where Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, confirms that his birth certificate is valid.

Peter (again) responds (in frustration): Valid does not mean it says he was BORN IN HAWAI’I. What part of that are you NOT understanding. Until someone can provide proof that his vault copy birth certificate states he was BORN IN HAWAI’I, he can say all the certificates of live birth are valid from now to perdition and it won’t mean a thing!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:13 am 363. thegr8 1:

Pat J- #8 your IQ is high enough to spell dumb@ass correctly but not high enough to contribute anything intelligent to the conversation. Say it to the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time and it may be more detrimental to you.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:20 am 364. Peter the Sub Guy:

294. Theravenseldon wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks “Who cares where he was born? His Mom is a citizen”?

Peter replies: So what you’re saying is you don’t care about what the law says? Just because his mother is/was/will be a US citizen does NOT automatically make her child a ‘natural born citizen’ of the US.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:20 am 365. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: Opening Statements

Hi Chuck, I hope you are well, but I think you missed the point of my comment, and perhaps my humor. We don’t have to agree, but I want to make my position clear. — Pundit Joe

I doubt if I missed your point.

You think anyone who insist on verifying that Obama is indeed a ‘natural-born citizen’ of the United States is a lunatic, believing in ufos and such and a pervert who performs acts of bestiality with hairy creatures of questionable repute.

You were rather concise in your description (above).

If you call that humor, then you should appreciate my humorous response.

So….

….how was it with our shaggy, dirty and probably smelly version of Chewbaca?

Did you get any fleas? Does he ‘bite’?

I don’t know for certain if Obama is eligible to hold the office of the president or not, but I‘m reasonably satisfied he is. Some smart folks that have earned my respect, such as Dennis Prager, Hugh Hewitt, and Michael Medved, all seem to think this is an unprofitable avenue to pursue – even if it does turn out that Obama is not a citizen. — Pundit Joe

You can ASSUME what you want. I prefer facts. And the others can ASSUME too. But in my 58-year sojourn here, I’ve learned a number of harsh lessons about assuming things. Especially important ones. Therefore, I prefer evidence to assumptions.

Here’s a simple test you can do in your own home to prove the value of what you ASSUME.

If you live in a built-up area, i.e., other than rural, I suppose you ASSUME that most people who live in the community with you are peaceable and law-abiding. If you do, they I ask you, “Do you lock the doors of your residence when you are away? Or asleep?”

If you do, then you are not accepting your assumption that most people are peaceable and law-abiding.

So. Go ahead and live up to your assumption. Leave your doors unlocked at night and when you are away.

Otherwise, stop behaving like a total moron, vis-a-vis the Constitution of the United States.

What would you do if Obama WAS inaugurated and it later turned out he was not eligible to be president? Who would you hate more? Obama? Or we who asked for verification?

RE: Unprofitability

Why do I think it is unprofitable? — Pundit Joe

Let’s take it by the numbers…..

First, he probably is a citizen. So, all of this hullabaloo will only serve to make many look foolish should this be borne out. Of course, at this point I doubt any proof would be sufficient to change the minds of some. — Pundit Joe

Prove it. That’s all we ask.

Only a fool would take a politician at their word. Are you such a fool?

As for no proof would suffice. Yeah. Maybe some. But not the majority.

Second, challenges probably won’t make it through the courts. Seriously, what judge would want to be the one to tell the President-elect and the nation that the fella that solidly won the election cannot hold office? So, in the end, it serves no purpose – we waste a great deal of time, money for no gain. — Pundit Joe

If they don’t make it through the courts, that’s VERY bad business. It will be a key indicator that the courts have been suborned. That would mean that more people would loose faith in the enforcement of Law. That would lead to a further break-down in adherence to the Law. That would lead to more force being applied by the government to enforce what Law it could. And we get into a very vicious downward spiral to anarchy and even revolution.

Am I calling for revolution? No. I’m just warning what I’ve noticed of history in my studies. And right now, I’d say we’re at the cusp of slide into the sort of mess that occurred when the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire.

Third, and perhaps most importantly – Should it be determined that he was not a natural born citizen – what then? We would have to toss out the results of the elction and have yet another election right? McCain won’t become the pres, so another election would be needed and we would be thrown into a huge constitutional crisis. We have to have a president and Bush’s term is up. Would Pelosi become the pres until such time as a special election could be held? I don’t know. Regardless, it would suck. — Pundit Joe

What then?

Biden becomes president, as he was elected to be Vice President. Simple. Neh?

We would NOT have to toss the results of the election and have another election. Get a ‘grip’. The Democrats won. I’d rather have a bona fide natural-born citizen of the United States than an illegal alien, if that’s what Obama turns out to be.

How about you?

Most likely, in event Obama were found to not be a ineligible, then the government and the nation would probably simply decide to not enforce the law. Obama won the election and throwing out the results would enrage half of the populace in a way we have not ever seen and many on the conservative side would support the non-enforcement as simply as a way to avoid the chaos that would ensue. So, folks would then openly ignore the constitution. — Pundit Joe

Again, you apparently don’t have much of a grasp of our government organization.

When and where did you graduate from high school? I’m curious as to what they taught you in civics.

Lastly, these efforts are extremely bad public relations. They come off as nutty and as sour grapes. And should Obama be declared ineligible for office, then much of the public would interpret such an event as stealing the election. With such a perception, any follow-up special election would undoubtedly result in the election of another Democrat. We would be back where we started, only with lower poll numbers. — Pundit Joe

Asking for a simple piece of paper is hardly ‘nutty’ nor ‘sour-grapes’. Instead, it’s a simple request that anyone can make. Indeed, anyone could file a Writ of Mandamus about this matter in a court of federal law requiring the government to abide by it’s own regulations and laws.

That’s why I was asking, earlier, what the FEC requires of a potential candidate. Do they require ANY documentation from a candidate for the presidency? If so, what? If none, why not?

Hardly the action of a ‘lunatic’ or ‘pervert’ as you suggested in your earlier comment here.

So, I return to the point I made in my original post – This avenue is unproductive. It is a waste of our limited resources when there are so many other more profitable things we could do in the advancement of conservative values. We must choose our battles wisely. — Pundit Joe

Hardly.

If a valid document is presented, this whole thing will blow over for the vast majority.

If a valid document is not provided, this will grow.

If an invalid document is provided the storm will erupt.

It’s really quite simple.

It may be hard to deal with now. But it will only be much worse if it is not dealt with in accordance to our Laws and the Constitution.

Or do you suggest that those last two items are of no consequence?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A nation of Laws and not of men.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:25 am 366. Peter the Sub Guy:

301. cedarford wrote:
Funny, I didn’t see a pile of Truther idiots arguing McCain was unfit..

Peter responds: Gee, maybe because McCain PROVIDED his birth certificate and everything checked out? Where have you been?

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:25 am 367. goy:

c’ford, read again for comprehension. And lose the snark.

- I think he understands “burden of proof” quite well. In the United States, any dickhead can make an accusation.

Wrong. That’s YOUR straw man. No different from Moran’s demand for an explanation of a “falsified” Advertiser birth listing. That you (willingly?) fail to see this speaks volumes about all the other drivel you post here and which most of us skip over.

Here’s your problem: no one is “accusing” BHO of doing anything other than what he has, in fact, done, which is having failed, utterly, to provide objective, verifiable proof that he’s eligible to serve as President of the United States. The actions of his parents and the circumstances surrounding his birth call that eligibility into question, obviously, or we wouldn’t be having this exchange and poor Moran would have been robbed of yet another chance to pad his wannabe MSM resumé. So the burden of proof is squarely on BHO to produce the necessary documentation, which we know exists. Period.

Your transparent appeal to ridicule doesn’t reflect the scenario I described in the slightest, which of itself is perfectly innocent, perfectly plausible, and perfectly supported by the facts BHO has deigned to release about his past. Epic fail for you. Just like all your other posts. My advice to you: give up. You have nothing of substance whatsoever to add to this or any other discussion.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:30 am 368. Peter the Sub Guy:

311. cedarford wrote:
Yah, it seems so simple…why won’t Palin do what Left wing Truthers demand of her? What is she afraid of? Why not just hand over her gynecological and financial records as demanded? Why not show the Birth Certificate and submit to DNA tests of herself and her baby as Thuthers tried suing for…what is Palin afraid of? Such simple things to do to make the Lefty Truthers happy and even cut down on some of their lawsuits against Palin…

Peter replies: Apples and oranges. Palin doesn’t need to prove she wasn’t pregnant to be qualified for POTUS.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:31 am 369. Peter the Sub Guy:

314. Pundit Joe:
I expect about the same percentage of folks that think that the birth certificate issue is productive probably also think Elvis is still alive. The birth certificate obsession makes our side look like ufo alien

Peter asks: What do a UFO and Obama’s birth certificate have in common? No one has really seen either and have no proof they really exist.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:33 am 370. Dan:

The Certificate of Live Birth documents posted on Mr. Obama’s website http://www.fightthesmears.com, Daily Kos (a pro-Obama blog) and factcheck.org, (a pro-Obama political research group), were found to be altered and forged.

The problem of the pixels: When you have a green patterned document such as this, there should be a lot of green pixels from the background showing up between the letters that appear on the certification. But in this case, instead of green pixels, there are white and grey pixels between the letters, which result when you replace existing text with other text.

There is no second fold line. The pictures show two folds – necessary to fit any COLB into an envelope for mailing, but the document itself shows only one fold. This is another indication of document alteration.

There’s a blurred border. The border has a lower resolution than the rest of the document, which is another indication that it has been altered.

The border is one that is used in 2007 COLBs. As a security measure, Hawaii changes their borders every year. This is when the Obama campaign claims the certificate was obtained. That is fine except for the problem that …

The seal and signature stamp are from a 2008 COLB. As revealed by a process called edging, the Hawaiian seal and signature stamp on the back of the document are revealed to be from the wrong year!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:33 am 371. Peter the Sub Guy:

331. B Dubya wrote:
Chuck Pelto wins the thread!
He epitomizes that American Icon, the Rugged Individual. Persistant. I mean really persistant. Argumentative, quick on the offensive. Patton would be proud. All that never equalled federal service, I suppose…
Give it up for Chuck, folks.

Peter replies: …Thus proving Chuck’s point perfectly. When the left can’t come up with a convincing arguement, when they have no facts to back up their theories, they simply turn to childish name-calling. Give it up for B Dubya (who by his name sound like he wishes he was a great as our current President).

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:43 am 372. Ms Attitude:

An idea: I worked in the Medical Staff office at the county hospital here. The OB/GYN’s wanted to go back to the “old” labor charts. No one could find one…since my son was born in that hospital, we pulled my records and copied my “old” labor chart.

With Obama’s mother being deceased are her medical records public? Can someone go to either one of the hospitals he was born in and get her records? They should be on micro-fiche. The birth of a child would be in her records.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:43 am 373. Peter the Sub Guy:

332. Thinking Person wrote:
Question to those in the know… What happens in the event that after Obama’s coronation in January, the birth certificate shows he was ineligible? What would happen then? It’s scary to even contemplate really. I’m hoping Obama finds the nerve to produce the certificate before the electoral college meets. Not holding my breath though.

Peter writes: We were discussing this very thing at work on Friday, and came to the conclusion that, as the laws exist, the Presidency goes to the runner-up, ie McCain.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:45 am 374. Ms Attitude:

311. cedarford: The proof of the birth of Palin’s son was given when she released ALL of her medical records. Obama never released ALL of his records, or else his medical records from his birth would have been the very last page from the hospital he was born in!!!! Duh…I swear, the more I argue this the dumber these “believers in Obama” seem. Produce the dadgum medical records from his birth hospital or the birth certificate. What is he hiding!!!!!??? He won’t even release his school records….If it smells fishy theres a reason!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:48 am 375. Kathy:

… unproductive… bad public relations… come off as nutty and as sour grapes… enrage half the populace… avoid the chaos… choose battles wisely…

Oh my. The Party is more important than The Truth?

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:49 am 376. Herb:

Peter the Sub Guy: “And once again Herb misses the entire point of this thread.” The entire point of this thread is to discuss some clearly irrational conspiracy theories, which you have apparently bought into with every fiber of your being.

Do you even understand how these processes work? Please tell me why the State of Hawaii would issue a “certificate of live birth” if that birth didn’t occur in the State of Hawaii???

This part was rich:
“Peter (again) responds (in frustration)”
It must indeed be frustrating to grapple with facts, but for the sake of your sanity, I recommend that you never give up the fight.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:52 am 377. Peter the Sub Guy:

358. Herb wrote:
Peter the Sub Guy, Um…you do realize that the Director of Hawaii’s Health Department Dr. Fukino vouches for the validity of Obama’s birth certificate, right?

Peter writes in exasperation: How many times do we all have to write the SAME THING??? The Director stated Obama’s certificate is VALID! That point is NOT in contention. What IS in contention is whether the valid certificate in question states he was born in HAWAI’I or ELSEWHERE? An illegal alien could still have a VALID certificate in Hawai’i, but does it prove that same illegal alien is qualified to be POTUS? GET WITH THE PROGRAM HERE Herb, and stick to the question we’re trying to raise!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:56 am 378. Peter the Sub Guy:

378. Herb wrote:
Peter the Sub Guy: “And once again Herb misses the entire point of this thread.” The entire point of this thread is to discuss some clearly irrational conspiracy theories, which you have apparently bought into with every fiber of your being.

Peter replies: I have not ‘bought into’ anything. I only state that people have questions and the easiest way to answer those questions would be to release the certificate in question. Most sane people would simply do that. The fact that The One and his mob of Chicago helpers have fought this, blocked all avenues of inquiry, hired three law firms to fight this and spent more money than I will ever hope to see at one time outside of the BoE&P or a Vegas Casino just strikes me that they have something to hide. Maybe it isn’t that he is not a ‘natural born citizen’ but he is hiding SOMETHING!

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:08 pm 379. Peter the Sub Guy:

378. Herb:
Do you even understand how these processes work? Please tell me why the State of Hawaii would issue a “certificate of live birth” if that birth didn’t occur in the State of Hawaii???

Peter writes again: Have you NOT been reading the facts in this thread? Have you not seen where MULTIPLE times it was written that Hawai’ian law allows for the registration of a birth in Hawai’i no matter where that birth may have taken place? Or are you just ignorant on purpose?

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:10 pm 380. Herb:

Peter, clearly you do not have a clear grasp on how these processes work. “An illegal alien could still have a VALID certificate in Hawai’i.” Um…no.

I don’t know how to make this any simpler:

If a person has a VALID birth certificate issued by the State of Hawaii, then that person is NOT an illegal alien.

The State of Hawaii issues “certificates of live birth” for births that occur in Hawaii. (Not Kenya, not Kansas, not Canada….HAWAII.) The State of Hawaii also determines whether the “certificate of live birth” is valid or not.

The State of Hawaii has clearly and undeniably CONFIRMED that Obama’s birth certificate is valid. The question you are trying to raise has been answered.

Obama was born in Hawaii. He’s a natural born citizen. Clearly, he’s eligible for the office to which he was elected.

Next question.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:13 pm 381. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Kathy
RE: TARGET!

Oh my. The Party is more important than The Truth? — Kathy to Pundit Joe

You nailed him!

Based on your succinct analysis, you’ve nailed his approach to politics quite accurately. The Truth, let alone the Law nor the Constitution mean nothing. Just go along to get along.

Your typical example of a weak-kneed, gutless wonder who only cares that nobody disturb his hibernation.

Heck…

….he’s probably REALLY a Democrat, at heart, if not in the eyes of his county clerk/recorder.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Keep up the fire!]

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:15 pm 382. goy:

cfbleachers, thank you for your comments in #338. I’ve tried mightily to keep a level head about this whole thing – to ignore it, in point of fact – but when people like Michelle Malkin, Charles Johnson and (even) Rick Moran decide to go on the offensive against the critical value of verifiable facts – claiming in effect that hearsay, double standards, arguably questionable documents, irrelevant thesis and mob rule should supersede them – something is very, very wrong.

I don’t know if the stress of this last, very long election cycle has simply burned them all out, or what, but the result is frightening.

In all this, what has been most frightening was Tom’s response from elected U.S. Senator Mel Martinez (see above in #192). If this is really an actual response Tom received from Martinez, we are well and truly screwed, regardless whether or not BHO turns out to be a natural born U.S. citizen.

Martinez writes, “[t]he voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications,” inferring, by omission, that any inconvenient truths to the contrary should simply be ignored. By conflating a popularity contest (i.e., an election) with actual documentation, Martinez asserts that the voting public can somehow ‘vet’ a presidential candidate simply by voting for him or her – never bothering to note that their vote is contingent upon the assumption that the candidate is, in fact, qualified to run. This is nothing short of replacing critical thought and verifiable fact with mob rule, and it should scare the living crap out of any Florida resident, IMHO.

If that’s the direction our present government wishes to take the rule of law, and the public is simply too stupid, too distracted or too apathetic to notice or care, then there is literally no hope for getting our Republic back on the path our Founders set and, quite honestly, President-Elect BHO is more than welcome to preside over such a society. He is in fact exactly the government such a country deserves.

Many folks posting here – those who find it easier to pursue ridicule rather than fact – exhibit this exact stupidity and/or apathy, and would prefer to let this issue slide (why they feel it’s necessary to post here on the topic, however, mystifies me). To me, Rick Moran represents the nadir of this phenomenon. I’m frankly sick and tired of it. Most of all, I take personal offense at Moran’s unrepentantly self-serving article, which demeans the pursuit of truth and fact by equating it to an hysterical behavior pattern he clearly does not comprehend. Perhaps this will help, but I doubt it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:18 pm 383. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Just….

….finished an e-mail discussion with a fellow Republican of the County.

What came out of it is the realization that for some strange reason the FEC has been VERY quiet, if not outright silent, on this matter.

I wonder why that is.

One would think that the FEC could have come out with a statement as to whether or not they have seen Obama’s Hawaiian birth certificate and validated it as authentic with the Hawaiian state officials.

But we have absolutely NOTHING, as far as I have heard.

Has anyone here heard ANYTHING from the FEC on this?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Just it because it sounds 'stupid', doesn't mean the government isn't doing it.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:18 pm 384. robotech master:

for herb…. again

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

Obama could have been born on the moon and have still have a “valid” birth cert.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:27 pm 385. Peter the Sub Guy:

Thank you, robotech master. I wasn’t looking forward to trying to fnd the link again through nearly 400 posts.
~Peter

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:44 pm 386. Peter the Sub Guy:

382. Herb wrote:
Next question.

Peter replies: Okay, next question: If Obama is NOT hiding his place of birth, then what IS he hiding by sealing the certificate behind three law firms and a million dollars in legal battles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:48 pm 387. CR:

What’s happened to PJM? An admitted internet newbie can post a pro-Obama article that’s so full of BS and ignorance that it’s actually disgusting! Some blogger he is, been on the internet for 4 whole years!

The POTUS eligibility issue has long legs because Obama has thus far refused to prove himself eligible. He spends a million dollars defending himself and stalling, instead of simply taking 5 minutes to release valid documents proving that he’s eligible. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that something is amiss here, and that Obama is not being honest.

The truth will eventually come out. Until then, the only real data I have is that Obama refuses to prove himself eligible, and many people are pursuing the truth in various courts of law.

Dec 6, 2008 - 1:34 pm 388. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Herb and His Ilk

I would guess that after explaining it in plain English so many times and providing factual evidence supporting the explanation, it’s pretty obvious to even the most casual observer that Herb and his sort really don’t care.

And whereas Rick Moran and the like claim that WE are the ones who won’t listen, it is equally obvious that they are ‘projecting’.

It’s really that simple.

Time to start working on more effective avenues and let this evidence speak for itself.

However, I will admit that this discussion has borne interesting fruit. It certainly (1) expanded my understanding of the depraved minds and morals we are dealing with and (2) provided some interesting information to assist in future work relating to this effort.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The wise open their minds, but a fool opens his mouth. And nothing intelligible comes forth. -- CBPelto]

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:09 pm 389. Herb:

Congratulations, robotech master! You found a mechanism by which a child not born in Hawaii can get a birth certificate!

So let’s see…in the scenario you refuse to believe, Obama was born in Hawaii and issued a Hawaiian birth certificate.

In the scenario you love speculating about, Obama was born elsewhere…his mother (the legal parent) submitted proof that she had lived in Hawaii for at least one year…the director of health determined that he/she did not “require any further information or proof of events”…the fee was paid…and the valid birth certificate was issued.

All things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:16 pm 390. Rashputin:

Chuck – “Am I calling for revolution? No. I’m just warning what I’ve noticed of history in my studies. And right now, I’d say we’re at the cusp of slide into the sort of mess that occurred when the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire.”

Those equating a demand that the Constitution be followed with their own lunatic “truthers” opted out of history courses in favor of interpretive dance. You’ll have to explain what the Roman Republic was.

Once the NFL, NBA, and MLB, get a shot at the bailout trough, we will have reached the tipping point.

Regards

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:18 pm 391. Herb:

To Peter:

“If Obama is NOT hiding his place of birth, then what IS he hiding by sealing the certificate behind three law firms and a million dollars in legal battles?”

His privacy. Like I said before, even public figures are entitled to privacy.

Why do I get the feeling that even if you had a state-issue copy of the birth certificate in your hands, you would be arguing about fuzzy margins and font sizes anyway?

I realize that facts cannot convince you. Hopefully you realize that your refusal to believe what is obvious to everyone else makes you look very very foolish.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:20 pm 392. Ms Attitude:

Medical Records, Medical Records, Medical Records!!!!! How can someone get his records from either of the two hospitals he was born in? Either his or his mother’s!!! That would be more proof than a birth certificate.

Herb, how come you don’t have a response to my post 360 and 363? Is it because it flushes all of your proof down the drain?

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:24 pm 393. zanne:

Heck, John Edwards denied and denied his love child. The media ignored it for over a year. The Enquirer finally broke the story and the truth. This issue is not going away. And the Democrats can wish and wish for quiet. But, I hear a roar ahead from the angry average American when they learn the truth.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:33 pm 394. robotech master:

Herb I’m glad you at last have seen the light and now believe obama was born in kenya.(or somewhere other then hawaii) Good for you that at last at least you see some facts.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:45 pm 395. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rashputin
RE: Explaining the Roman Experience

You’ll have to explain what the Roman Republic was. — Rashputin

That’ll be a trip. Doing what the vaunted American public education system—K-12 and higher—failed to accomplish.

I’d first recommend that they read Livy’s accounts of early Roman history.

Then look at Caesar’s account of his conquest of Gaul. Followed by watching the movies, Spartacus, Fall of the Roman Empire and Gladiator. Wouldn’t hurt to watch Quo Vadis.

Then read Marcus Aurelius and Tacitus.

For the REALLY daring, Gibbon’s account of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Then, The Giant Book of Roman History to sort of tie it all together, beginning to end.

The point here for US is that we are at a similar cross-roads in our national growth. Akin to the time when the Roman Republic was faced with the challenges of being the most powerful nation on the face of the Earth, while being opposed by another powerful nation, Carthage.

The political situation in Rome deteriorated to where people no longer discussed amongst themselves what was the best course of action to take in order to resolve a crisis or lead the nation. Instead their politics broke down to the sort of ad hom name calling and vitriol that we have seen here from people like vivo, Pundit Joe, Pat J, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. And therein lies the same path that Rome fell into and never recovered from.

The law became whatever whoever had the Praetorian Guard and the Legions would dictate. The written law was a farce and a joke and only used to murder those who opposed whomever was in power. Never to hold those in power to account for their actions or inactions.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to relive it.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:45 pm 396. Chuck Pelto:

TO: zanne, et al.
RE: Indeed

The Enquirer finally broke the story and the truth. This issue is not going away. And the Democrats can wish and wish for quiet. But, I hear a roar ahead from the angry average American when they learn the truth. — zanne

It could well be very ‘messy’. And I have to wonder if the Democrats have already figured that out.

What’s this I hear about 20,000 US military types to be specially trained and available to deal with ‘terrorist’ attacks in the US by 2011?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I would sincerely regret, and which never shall happen whilst I am in office, a military guard around the President. -- Andrew Jackson]

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:48 pm 397. Rashputin:

Herb – “His privacy.”

That is a lame line of it from those who brought out everything they could find about a plumber who dared challenge “The One”. If I needed to know anything about that damn plumber then I have an absolute need to know every detail of Obama’s life from the time he entered the first grade until this very day. It seems you’re all for transparency in government unless there is even a slight chance that it might be a problem for the democrat faithful.

The truth is, you’re defending his actions entirely because you have even more fear of what he’s hiding than do those who are demanding to know. Things like his connections to Muslim donars who paid his way through college because he’s a good Muslim. Things like his being explicitly listed as a citizen of another country rather than there merely being someplace other than Hawaii listed as place of birth. Whether you like it or not, in the eyes of the Islamic world Obama IS a Muslim because his father was a Muslim.

If his birth certificate and college documents agree that he’s a Muslim, you tell me what you think the reaction would be, quite apart from the place of birth issue. I KNOW what the reaction would have been during the primaries and during the election, and I KNOW how millions who voted for him would react. You do as well, and that’s why you claim his privacy rights trump transparency in government and even the Constitution. Whatever way this issue comes out, I fear you wonderful democritters have elected the death of your party and are just a tad too slow to realize it.

have a wonderful day

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:51 pm 398. Herb:

Ms Attitude, I apologize for not responding to you. Frankly I find it hard to believe that you’ve never needed your birth certificate.

Do you have a social security card? A passport? Perhaps you managed to get your drivers license without it, but it’s a requirement for a passport.

And guess what? Obama has an American passport.

Please understand that you are not just accusing Obama of being a lifelong fraud, but you are also saying that our system does not work.

You are saying that official records are suspect. You are saying that intense public scrutiny for YEARS cannot uncover an obvious fraud. You are saying that the electorate is so stupid that they will elect an unvetted foreign national.

And finally, you are saying that the next president of the United States is fundamentally Un-American.

I’m sorry, but that…does…not…track.

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:02 pm 399. Herb:

robotech master, No, I don’t believe that Obama was born anywhere besides Hawaii. I do, however, believe that you are unbelievable. Why do YOU believe Obama was born in Kenya? Because you heard it on the radio?

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:06 pm 400. Peter the Sub Guy:

393. Herb wrote:
I realize that facts cannot convince you. Hopefully you realize that your refusal to believe what is obvious to everyone else makes you look very very foolish.

Peter replies: On the contrary, FACTS would convince me quite easily. But until you provide some, I will go on having these nagging doubts that SOMETHING, whether it is his country of origin or that he lied on his college applications or illegally took financial aid he was not entitled to or a hundred other things will persist. As has been stted her ad infinitum, all it would take is a five minute phone call and this could all be cleared up in minutes.

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:37 pm 401. Peter the Sub Guy:

Having problems with my keyboard. Re-typing my last sentence.

As has been stated here ad infinitum, all it would take is a five minute phone call…

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:42 pm 402. goy:

Herb, you are exhibiting the same lack of critical thinking as the rest of the True Believers® here. It’s possible (at least presently) to get a passport without a birth certificate. I point this out not to assert that this is what BHO did, but to inform you that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Also, it is not necessary to be a natural born citizen in order to get a passport. One can be a naturalized citizen and qualify. So your assertion has no bearing on BHO’s Article II eligibility for the Office of POTUS.

With those facts in hand, the rest of your sophomoric straw man at #400 breaks down irretrievably.

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:47 pm 403. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Herb & a Lack of Reading Skills Or….

Why do YOU believe Obama was born in Kenya? — Herb

….is it short-term memory loss?

His efforts are all just lies and jest. Otherwise, he’d remember that (1) Obama’s living grandmother, a citizen of Kenya, says she witnessed Obama’s birth in Kenya and (2) nobody has yet to provide a bona fide birth certificate from Hawaii.

That INCLUDES:

[1] The Obama campaign
[2] The Federal Elections Commission
[3] The Hawaiian state government

And even that effort will not serve him to the point where he can actually comprehend.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Don't try teaching a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and annoys the everyone else in the vicinity. And the pig, in this case, seems to enjoy it overly much. -- CBPelto]

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:48 pm 404. Questioner:

Interesting discussion…
Regarding Obama’s “right to privacy”, I am interested in opinions of what, exactly, “public” office means. Forget for a moment any ulterior motive you may have concerning his qualifications for PETUS, and think purely about his eligibility for that public office. We, America, is still a country of laws. If any one of us is allowed to pick-and-choose which laws we will or won’t obey, well…wait until you see MY personal list. Just because the system seemingly failed to properly ascertain Obama’s eligibility is no excuse for his refusal to provide the American people with satisfactory proof of his eligibility. Is he “taking the 5th”, or is he taking us for complacent fools? I remember that Bill Clinton and Cindy McCain we practically forced to submit their personal financial records during the presidential campaigns of Hillary and John. (I do not know if that is a “requirement”.) Bill and Cindy were not running, but they had to submit. I am fairly confident that those submissions were far more voluminous than a single sheet of paper such as an original birth certificate. Just because Obama won does not mean he was, or no longer is, bound by the laws and rules of this country. So much for him being a “uniter”, when lawlessness such as this only further divides Americans. Not to mention faith in our government and especially the judicial system. He needs to come clean. Period.

Now…I just found my tinfoil hat…

What if the child born in Hawaii was stillborn, and Barack was a replacement, sold as an infant by his Kenyan family, to his bereaved “parents”?

Or, what if a young Barack Obama was killed during one of his stays overseas, and an imposter assumed his identity and returned to the US?

Or, what if… Oh well, anything is possible regarding his true identity until we see documented proof.

I wonder if it’s time to change our laws to: A.) Require a DNA test for proof of identity and thus, eligibility, B.) Allow anybody who can fog a mirror hold Presidential office, or C.) Allow foreign or domestic corporations to hold office. Or, D.) any of the following – children, animals, statues, churches, plants, bottles of fingernail polish, etc. Or, E.) go 4 years without a President.

None of the above is really any less absurd than enforcing the current law compelling a candidate to prove their eligibility.

By the way, regarding any government agency’s ability to verify an individual’s identity: I have an identical twin brother, with whom I unknowingly shared a Social Security number up until I was 16 years old or so. Our 1st and 2nd names rhyme, and are different only by their first letters. (Donald Wayne and Ronald Dwayne) So, upon our application for SS cards, somebody at the SSA decided we were the same person, and issued each of us a SS card – at different times and places – with our correct names, but the SAME number. How much fun was that?! Only with an ORIGINAL CERTIFIED BIRTH CERTIFICATE were we able to clear the issue. If I, as a teenager, could solve such a problem, I would think that the President-Elect could/would/should do the same.

I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me…

God Bless America, and I wish each of you have a safe and happy holiday season, and a very Merry Christmas!

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:50 pm 405. robotech master:

herb No, I believe that Obama was born somewhere. I do, Also, believe that you are unbelievable. Why do YOU believe Obama was born in Hawaii?
Because you heard it on the radio?
Because you read it on the libtard blog?
Because you heard a bunch of misleading statement that didn’t say anything but you assume they did?
Because you refuse to seek facts? Because you refuse to seek reality?
Because you are a sucker who could easily have his ID stolen because he knows nothing about how to prove ID in the first place?
Because you’ve seen clearly fake documents?
Because you believe no one could ever fake any kind of document?
Because you believe in magic?
BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU SO?

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:18 pm 406. Herb:

I’d provide further argument here, but I’ll let events do my talking from here on out.

Obama will be the next President of the United States in January. You conspiracy theorists can spend the rest of your lives wondering about the validity of his birth for all I care.

The rest of the world will not need to be so convinced. They’ll be too busy dealing with a little thing called reality.

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:18 pm 407. robotech master:

What I find funny is the fact when obama was running for senate he demanded divorce paper work on enemies…

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/ryan.divorce/

Several Chicago media organizations had sued for release of documents relating to the Ryans’ divorce, saying the public interest outweighed their concerns about privacy and the possible effect on their now 9-year-old son. Friday, a judge in Los Angeles, where their divorce was litigated, agreed to unseal portions of more than 360 pages of documents, although large parts remained blacked out.

let me hit the great quote for herb…

” saying the public interest outweighed their concerns about privacy and the possible effect on their now 9-year-old son.”

So divorce records of a huge public interest… but obama birth cert isn’t… when its required by law that it be reviewed….

“That’s the price of living in a free society and if Mr. Ryan doesn’t like the way it’s spinning, well, then, he’s going to have to spend his time and money” refuting anything that looks bad for him, Schnider said.

Another great quote… here

http://cltv.trb.com/news/nationworld/chi-0403300182mar30,0,1024247.story

So its prefectly ok for ppl to be forced to open up about their divorce records… because it public interest… but not in the case of the ONE… who is legally required(and nothing in these divorce records could make the person legally unable to hold the senate post)….

So once again the HUGE MASSIVE DOUBLE STANDARD…

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:30 pm 408. goy:

TO: Chuck Pelto
RE: I thoroughly enjoy each and every one of your comments!

- It could well be very ‘messy’. And I have to wonder if the Democrats have already figured that out.

Not just the Democrats.

As one distressingly notes in reading United States v. Miller, a game-changer in the RKBA realm, well-known facts that are not actively and specifically brought “within judicial notice” can be – and have been – ignored in support of a federal agenda at the discretion of the court.

As we wrestle with this issue on a relatively obscure site unknown to 99% of America, the SCOTUS has considered or will be considering Berg’s petition for a writ of certiorari and similar cases brought before it.

Imagine their dilemma. Especially given the manner in which the entrenched media began its 24/7 demonization of GWB, the Republicans and conservatives by rewriting the history of the 2000 election as it was happening – when Gore failed to carry his own home state and was thus forced by his ego to attempt a rule change in the vote counting (via the FL Supreme Court).

Despite the fact that the SCOTUS ultimately slapped Gore down on this, and despite the fact that Bush would have won even if they hadn’t, media-induced conventional wisdom is that the election was “stolen” and that GWB was “selected (i.e., by the Supreme Court), not elected”. Note the difference in effect between the two since; that is, the conventional wisdom and the court’s actual decision. The former has overwhelmed the latter. Nowhere has this been more clearly demonstrated than in last month’s election, which was a victory of style and appearance over substance and truth in every way that mattered. Martinez’ frightening commentary above comes to mind here, i.e., whatever the mob decides, goes, though the heavens fall.

So at this moment what might the SCOTUS be considering? They are of course aware of the “evidence” being cited by self-promoting hacks like Rick Moran. They’re also aware that such “facts” can just as easily become more media-induced conventional wisdom if the issue is left unaddressed (by them). Their choice is simple: agree to hear the case or decline without comment.

If they agree to hear the case, this issue immediately grows a set of legs that can no longer be simply ignored by the blind eye of BHO’s media cheerleaders – who’ve invested everything they have, up to and including sacrificing what’s left of their very credibility, in his victory. Ultimately, if it turns out BHO was actually born in Kenya, we have a Constitutional crisis of unprecedented proportions. And of course the SCOTUS will again be scapegoated for whatever outcome results – including the worst case scenario, which I don’t even want to type.

If they decline, the issue will most likely go nowhere, despite the various petitions and any other demands for accountability that arise – all of which the general public will never hear anything about.

Which would you choose?

Regards,

goy

[I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts. - Abraham Lincoln]

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:36 pm 409. Rashputin:

Herb – “They’ll be too busy dealing with a little thing called reality.”

I’m glad to see you were honest enough to phrase that in a way that clearly seperates those who are dealing with reality from yourself.

have a nice delusion

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:48 pm 410. Barry Kearns:

Questioner wrote: “None of the above is really any less absurd than enforcing the current law compelling a candidate to prove their eligibility.”

The reason we’re in this pickle is no such law appears to exist. While there is a constitutional requirement that, to be eligible for the office of the President, some one must be a natural born citizen, no one has ever seen fit to pass a law which vests the responsibility of verifying that eligibility with anyone.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:06 pm 411. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: The Herbal Approach to Discussion

I’d provide further argument here, but I’ll let events do my talking from here on out. — Herb

Typical.

Having offered silly comments as he has here, and having them destroyed at the first touch of the reality he claims we do not understand….

…he runs away.

Funny….

…I had a similar encounter with another fantasy world individual in my own house last Tuesday. A reception after the city dedicated a monument in our yard to the historic district our house is part of.

The individual was chortling with a gaggle of her fellows about the result of the general election, when I encountered them in the glassed in breezeway leading to the sunroom.

I commented that I hope their pleasure is not turned to ‘buyers remorse’.

One by one, each of the gaggle fled as facts expressed in an effective manner could not be overcome by their insistence that I lived in a ‘fantasy’. Even the most stalwart of their group finally flew off in a huff, being incapable of anything more than what Herb has just done here.

And like her, Herb leaves us…..we should think…..based on his latest comment. Not in victory, but with a parthian shot about what he thinks is ‘reality’. And yet, he is projecting his misconceptions of the world on US.

Such is the nature of those who flee the field of ‘battle’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything. -- Harry S. Truman]

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:25 pm 412. Chuck Pelto:

TO: goy
RE: Heady Thoughts, There

More tomorrow.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. About the ‘Truth’….

What they are telling you could be important. What they are NOT telling you could be vital….

….to making good decisions. — CBPelto

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:33 pm 413. CoolCzech:

I just don’t see why Obama doesn’t make this whole issue/non-issue/whatever go away by simply releasing the copy of the damned birth certificate.

Hawaii says it exists and proves he’s a citizen, so the only reason I can think he doesn’t simply release it is because it shows something deeply embarrassing.

Is Barney Frank Obama’s real mother??

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:38 pm 414. robotech master:

Thats not wholly true Barry Kearns… really it should fall to groups like the FEC and the states… ever state should be required to check… so really all 50 states plus the FEC all should have done overlapping checks all proving eligibility…

All elections are handled by the state and thus it falls to each of the 50(current) state to each check independently of each other if barack is allow to be POTUS…

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:39 pm 415. Pundit Joe:

Boy howdy, I seem to have bothered some folks. Heh heh

I would just like to add this one last comment… Esspecially to the “Screw public relations, do the right thing” people. I AM doing what I think is right!

The time to have made these challenges to his eligibility was BEFORE the election. Yes, I know some folks were poking about with it, but their challenges were unsuccessful.

Ultimately, since the election has already taken place and considering the current state of the union, I believe that pursuing this is irresponsible and only serves to hurt the conservative movement and ultimately the nation.

Take it as a lesson and look into such things earlier so as to avoid any similar issues in the future. Heck, it ain’t as if we didn’t have the time in this election – this season seemed about two solid years.

Also, why didn’t any of Obama’s opponents in the primaries bring this up? They would have loved for anything to knock him out that couldn’t be construed as a personal attack. Perhaps they didn’t bring it up because there was no meat there? He couldn’t have avoided it if Hillary had mentioned it as a concern in a debate when he first started to overtake her in the polls. There were enough Hillary supporters in the press to force the issue.

P.S. Chuck, don’t take things so personally. We ain’t gotta agree to get along. And to answer your question – it was okay. Not as exciting as one might have expected. I tried to take some photos, but dang it – they all came out blurry! LOL

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:55 pm 416. robotech master:

Pundit Jow many of these lawsuits were filed long before the election… short of filing them when a person announces(and being you can announce just a few months before the election… They were filed with lots and lots of time left. You are just throwing another strawman on the pile to try to deflect and blame others.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:02 pm 417. robotech master:

Also not just that but what happens if a write in person won? Should they get a free ride? The election in only 1 process on the way to becoming POTUS… proving Citizenship is another… they are both of equal value… to say that its not a big deal is to say the loser of the election who then seizes pay is legally ok to do that…

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:04 pm 418. Herb:

To Chuck Pelto,

I’m not running away from anything. I have simply concluded that there can be no reasonable argument with irrational people.

So do your victory dance, if you must, and continue to wonder why your type of conservatism…the kind that relies on rampant speculation in the face of established fact…is in decline.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:06 pm 419. Peter the Sub Guy:

417. Pundit Joe wrote:
Ultimately, since the election has already taken place and considering the current state of the union, I believe that pursuing this is irresponsible and only serves to hurt the conservative movement and ultimately the nation.

Peter responds: What you and all the “It’s the past, just let it be…’ crowd don’t seem to realize is; IF (I’m not saying when, just IF) it should ever turn out that The One was not elegible for the post he has been elected to, it opens all sorts of doors that would be very bad for this country. Any laws he signs are null and void. Any treaties he signs are unenforcable. Any order he gives to the military, if carried out, turns into a war crime for those who accepted and carried out the order. I could go on and on, but suffice to say, isn’t it better that all this should come out now, when something can be done (relatively) painlessly than six months, a year, three years from now when it might result in something more than a simple headache?

If people had done their jobs (ie the MSM, the DNC, various government officials) instead of simply worshiping at the alter of The One, we wouldn’t be where we are right now. Joe the Plumber had more of a background check in one week than The One had in nearly TWO YEARS of running or considering running for POTUS. Everyone on the left, including 99 44/100% of the media simply fell in love with Obama and then did everything they could to put him in power except look into his background. Would (and in point HAS) any other candidate since the 1960’s ever run for an office like President without having his/her entire life opened like a book and examined in great detail?

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:07 pm 420. Peter the Sub Guy:

417. Pundit Joe wrote:
Also, why didn’t any of Obama’s opponents in the primaries bring this up? They would have loved for anything to knock him out that couldn’t be construed as a personal attack. Perhaps they didn’t bring it up because there was no meat there? He couldn’t have avoided it if Hillary had mentioned it as a concern in a debate when he first started to overtake her in the polls. There were enough Hillary supporters in the press to force the issue.

Peter asks: Did this issue even come UP during the primaries? Everyone was so interested in Rev Wrong, Rezko, Ayers, etc. I don’t recall any mention of this before the Democratic Convention. Could it be Hillery et-al just assumed he had proven his elegibility by that point and the DNC never bothered to bring it up? After all, it seems like the DNC wanted The One over Hill anyway.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:11 pm 421. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: Joe….

Chuck, don’t take things so personally. — Pundit Joe

….Don’t be such a bozo.

In 1970, I raised my right hand and swore to defend the Constitution of the United States. Even with my very life, if it came to that. In 1975 I reaffirmed that oath from the perspective of an officer in the US Army.

I served in various units and capacities until 1997.

How can I NOT take thinks like this ‘personally’?

But that doesn’t mean I’ve lost my sense of humor. As you and B Dubya may better appreciate now.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I don't approve of political jokes...I've seen too many of them get elected.]

P.S. A proper fisking tomorrow…..

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:18 pm 422. robotech master:

O and heres a jem from another thread….

Posted by rxsid:

F) Without question, the Secretary of State of New Jersey (& possibly other SoS’s) did NOT do their job in making sure the presidential candidates (including Obama) were qualified and eligible to be on their states’ ballot. [This is, in part, the subject of Leo Donofrio's lawsuit.]

Why?

How would the SoS from NJ explain that Roger Calero was on their ballet as a candidate?

Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero isn’t even a U.S. citizen (Naturalized OR Natural Born), yet appeared on NJ’s presidential ballot.

Calero was also allowed on the state ballot in: Delaware, Minnesota, New York and Vermont.

Calero is a permanent resident alien (holding a green card).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B3ger_Calero

So once again to herb and pundit joe clear proof that a alien has run for president….

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:19 pm 423. Smarty:

Every single US citizen has standing to ask to see his birth certificate. Any judge who says otherwise is a tyrant and anyone who dismisses such concerns so easily is a fool.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:37 pm 424. Smarty:

If you are born on foreign soil you have to apply for citizenship. That makes you NOT a natural born citizen.

If you refuse to tell the police where you were the night of a crime, or tell them that you have proof of an alibi but refuse to present that proof (and actually hire lawyers to fight presenting the proof), then the police would call you suspect #1 and arrest you.

So why can Obama behave this way and the accusers are called the ones with the problem?

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:41 pm 425. Gilligan:

I would just like to endorse cedarford’s comment in 11.

” Who is gaining anything positive from a needless, ongoing, time and money-consuming controversy?

Obama and the Democrats, even moderate Republicans.
All who are taking great pleasure in watching the Right Wing damage their already tattered public image by behaving like a pack of hysterical, deranged assholes.”

Obama benefits from conservatives aligning them selves with 9/11 Troofers like Philip Berg. If I were him, I wouldn’t release my birth certificate either just to keep this stupid crap going on as long as possible.

On January 20, 2009 Barak Obama is going to be sworn in as President of the United States. The US Supreme Court is not going to prevent that. After Obama is sworn in as President, he will be Commander in Chief and the US military is going to take orders from him.

I may not be happy about this, I didn’t vote for him but I can accept the reality that he was elected and he will take office. I hope that conservative Republicans can stop obsessing over this useless issue and start doing something useful to get Republicans elected to Congress in 2010.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:46 pm 426. Kathy:

Herb#393 His privacy?

Use yer loaf man: proof that he meets the constitutional requirements for the job have nothing to do with his personal privacy. If you, Herb, apply for a job which requires a background check, you have to wave-off on ‘privacy’ so they can do the background check itself. You want to keep your privacy an not wave-off? Fine, you refuse to meet the requirements of the job, you don’t get said-job. It’s as simple as that – you can’t have both.

If Obama wants to keep his ‘privacy’, he’s not entitled to the job.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:12 pm 427. misanthropicus:

The US Supreme Court decisuion delay, Barry Soetero’s increasing legal problems & the Soeterotrolls’ desperation

Folks: as you probably know, the US Supreme Court has delayed a pronouncement in the Donofrio case regarding Soetero’s eligibility for presidency and this fact is actually a HUGE PR advancement for the case. All other cases presented in the Friday’s conference were either bounced or accepted, yet the Soetero matter is still in the legal grinder.
And if this doesn’t show to the incredulous that, yes, Virginia, there is a gun and the barrel is still smoking, then… I don’t know.
So, even if the case will be eventually bounced (for whatever reason), the fact that the Supreme Court acted so unusually in not placing it either in the “yes” or “no” box yet, has given enormous credibility to those who rightfully demand evidence about Soetero’s eligibility.

Folks, don’t lose your temper when seeing the aggressive idiocy of all these Soeterotrolls swarming the site – this situation actually shows very much anxiety and I can recall such a cyber assault on PJ only when the Franziskus matter (unfortunately kind of forgotten now) hit the fan – that was a cyber dog-fight!

So, again, the fact that the Supreme Court has delayed a decision in the Soetero matter is a HUGE BLOW to those guys – it means that a few Justices have joined us in having a problem with Soetero’s eligibility.
And if the Donofrio case is bounced, fine – Jericho ain’t fell at the first blare of the horns either.

A last remark: probably you have noticed media’s deafening silence regarding this development – now visualise this: a Supreme Court’s bouncing of the case yesterday!
That sure would have been news – cedarford’s, Hurley’s & Cie impartial input regarding this appreciated.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:16 pm 428. SeanLA:

417. Pundit Joe:
“serves to hurt (snip) ultimately the nation.”
HaHaHAAHAHAHA
so lets get this straight. The president of the USA has illegal family members living there, ignoring their deportation orders BTW, is himself of questionable heritage (illegal) and you think thats fine? and that exposing it is “hurtful to the nation”?
hahha and your taxes go to what? supporting the welfare of illegal aliens, like the presidents family, and what else? supporting banks and other co’s that deal mostly in other countries and what else? The roads in the US suck (a friend has his Honda seriously damaged on 7th ave in NY’s village to name just a recent example of decaying US infrastructure)
at least in most of Europe taxes pay for healthcare, better roads and free TV! In the US you pay for the rest of the worlds benefits and outcasts. I can’t wait until they start releasing gulag detainees into the US!
Helping to make the USA into the 3rd world nation it should be?
Good job Pundit Joe

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:31 pm 429. Malinda:

When the birth certification was posted on the internet, I looked at it and bells and whistles went off. I sensed immediately that it was no