Pajamas Media

594 Comments

1. Jim62sch:

Oh, please. The level of talk about Obama is absolutely nothing to the garbage that has been spewing 24/7 for the last 8 years about Chimpy McHitlerBurton and Darth Cheney.

Dec 4, 2008 - 6:40 pm 2. Paul:

If it would be so simple to validate Obama’s status as a natural born US citizen, why are he and his cohorts so adamantly refusing to do so? It should not be a complicated thing to do. It is their complicity in refusing to release the alleged original document that alone is fueling the controversy. That considered, it should be no great leap to understand why there is such a large contingent of people who want verifiable proof, EXPECIALLY in the wake of the Constitutional requirement. Who is gaining anything positive from a needless, ongoing, time and money-consuming controversy? My guess is (NO!! The adage is) “sew the wind, and you WILL reap the whirlwind”. My guess is, whoever “YOU” is, it won’t be pretty. All you Obama addicts… I hope you’re all ready for it.

Dec 4, 2008 - 6:42 pm 3. thegr8_1:

A million dollars spent on lawyers, including one from CAIR to fight these lawsuits. These people like Keyes and Berg just want the constitution followed and events have placed doubt in a lot of peoples minds. No terrorist attack in the US in 87 months I hope Obama can match that. What’s this on Newsmax that Obama wants to give a major speech in a Muslim country most likely Cairo after being elected?

Dec 4, 2008 - 6:51 pm 4. Alessandro Machi:

Although I tend to think Barack is a U.S. Citizen, it does appear that more could have been done to allay birth certificate questions than what has been done. Lets not forgot this was the year of ACORN backed caucus cheating and MSNBC and Huffington Post (A Soros project) Hillary Clinton bashing.

Soros is not a legitimate person to quote on this issue, Soros turned MoveON.org against Hillary Clinton, who just so happened to be the wife of the president for which MoveON was originally started as a way to protect democrats from future witch hunts.

To then use MoveON.org against Hillary Clinton was the height of sociopathic behavior, Soros is not a legitimate source to refer to. He’s just rich. You should backwards engineer your article. What would make those who are uncertain, convinced?

Rather than come up with snarky responses, come up with a solution rather than ridicule who have doubts.

http://www.DailyPUMA.com

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:11 pm 5. bob:

The writer of this article doesn’t understand the Donofrio case. It doesn’t matter where Obama was born, in the Donofrio case. The problem is Obama was born an English citizen on his father’s side, his father being a Kenyan who was an English citizen. Donofrio asserts a ‘natural born citizen’ is one born on US soil to two citizen parents. The writer of this article should bet rid of his computer which has done him no good service.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:15 pm 6. SeanLA:

“why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.?”
Easy, its better to be a US citizen then a Kenyan.

Maybe you can ask aunt Zeituni if her brother is capable of such a thing? Is she? If the sister doesn’t have a problem with it why would her brother?

will you deny that the president has an illegal aunt living in the US? She has deportation orders until he `pardons’ her.

everybody has to fill out an I9 form and prove their citizenship, why should Obama be any different? Why is his `birth certificate’ `under lock and key’ as you say? Is yours?

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:16 pm 7. Daedalus:

I agree with Rick Moran’s article, but must still ask one question – Why is Obama and his staff so reluctant to authorize the showing of the original birth certificate? It is Obama and not the Obama Derangement Syndrome (ODS) idiots who are keeping this story alive. If the story could be killed by the simple showing of the birth certificate, why not do it? That is what amazes me, forget those with ODS – why is Obama so reluctant to show the original document? There is a lot of money being spent on this and many hours come from very high priced lawyers, and now even our Supreme Court must spend time on this subject – WHY? The explanations in Rick Moran’s article make sense to me, so why is Obama fighting this? Unfortunately only Obama has the answer to that question, and until he decides to come forth and explain himself, or is required by a court order to show the original birth certificate, the story will continue to grow and walk on legs supplied by Obama.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:27 pm 8. Pat J:

What’s this on Newsmax that Obama wants to give a major speech in a Muslim country most likely Cairo after being elected?
————-
Umm. Cairo is a city in Egypt or a town in Illinois. Dumbass.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:42 pm 9. Pat J:

Donofrio asserts a ‘natural born citizen’ is one born on US soil to two citizen parents.
———-
Wait a sec. My dad was born here. My mom was born in England. She had dual citizenship. I was born in San Antonio. Does that mean I can’t be president? What about this scenario. A Mexican national bears a child in a hospital in say, San Antonio. Does that mean he can’t be president? Or say you were born in the Panama neutral zone. Like, I don’t know. John McCain? Does that mean John McCain could not have become president? The bottom line is this lawsuit is a waste of the Supreme Court’s time. Just like the controversy that Obama was not born in the United States is waste of time. He’s American. Get over it.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:53 pm 10. fred:

Even though I did not vote for Obama I am prepared to accept him. I will only criticize him on matters of policy and action that I disagree with and I will not do the Bushitler and Chimpy stuff that the Bush haters pulled for eight years.

But based on all the stories I’ve read about the matter of his birth and subsequent citizenship in Indonesia years later, I do in fact want this matter cleared up. Look, all he and his lawyers have to do is get the birth certificate from the governor of Hawai’i, show it to the judge and plaintiffs, and then be done with it if he has nothing to hide. End of story.

But if he was in fact born in Kenya, then he does not meet the Constitutional requirement for the office he now will be holding. Also, if he never got naturalized as a U.S. citizen when he returned from Indonesia, then he isn’t even a U.S. citizen!

Mr. Moran, this is not a matter of partisanship run amok. For God’s sake, a lawyer from his own party initiated this whole search!

So far, it would seem his respect for the Constitution is less than what one would expect from a Commander in Chief. What about Sen. Clinton’s appointment and the Constitution’s Emoluments’ Clause?

This isn’t being petty and vindictive. There are times when certain standards deserve the respect they command and you have to come clean before them.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:53 pm 11. cedarford:

Paul & Others – It is their complicity in refusing to release the alleged original document that alone is fueling the controversy.

No, that is like saying that Jackie Kennedy refusing to testify in deranged Grassy Knoller lawsuits and become part of their PR hype made her “complicit”. The general strategy most use when confronted by Truthers is to refuse to cooperate with then or argue with them. The Navy responded with a general “f*ck-off!” when asked to cooperate with lawsuits demanding Navy radar records and testimony of hundreds of sailors regarding the “secret missile that shot down TWA Flight 800″.

Paul&others - That considered, it should be no great leap to understand why there is such a large contingent of people who want verifiable proof, EXPECIALLY in the wake of the Constitutional requirement.

There isn’t a “large number”. You have a miniscually small fraction of the US population filing lawsuits and a small pack of nutballs that believe in that or the Hillary Clinton Assassination of Vince Foster Conspiracy. Or the Jews being behind 9/11, with Mossad placing charges in the WTC to ensure the 2 buildings fell when their secret co-conspirators in AQ flew planes into them.

Paul&others – Who is gaining anything positive from a needless, ongoing, time and money-consuming controversy?

Obama and the Democrats, even moderate Republicans.
All who are taking great pleasure in watching the Right Wing damage their already tattered public image by behaving like a pack of hysterical, deranged assholes.

The Gr8_1 – A million dollars spent on lawyers, including one from CAIR to fight these lawsuits. These people like Keyes and Berg just want the constitution follow..

When you see you opponents acting as fools, digging a deep hole for themselves, hand them all the shovels they want. In this case, the million bucks (Obama backers still have hundreds of millions in loose change) is the equivalent of buying the shovels for the fools.
And having the psychopathic Alan Keyes join the Secret Kenyan Birth Conspiracy of Truthers is just icing on the cake.

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:56 pm 12. Alessandro Machi:

I was under the impression that anyone born on US soil is a US citizen, irrespective of where the child’s parents are born, yes, no?

Dec 4, 2008 - 7:59 pm 13. Dave:

FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.

THEREFORE; Barack Hussein Obama was born a citizen of these United States.

FACT: A parent cannot renounce the citizenship of a child.

FACT: No person can renounce citizenship unless that person has achieved the age of majority at the time of renouncement.

FACT: There is no evidence that, having achieved the age of majority, Barack Hussein Obama renounced his (natural-born) US citizenship.

THEREFORE: Barack Hussein Obama remains eligible to be POTUS.

What is the fuss? Read Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals. Also read Lenin. Pay special attention to “useful idiots”. Look in the mirror. One will be staring back at you if you
believe all this non-citizen garbage.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:00 pm 14. bob:

I should have said, it doesn’t matter if Obama was born in Hawaii, in the Donofrio case. His father was an English citizen. If your mother is a citizen, and your father is a citizen, and you are born on US soil, you are a natural born citizen, in Donofrio’s understanding of the Constitutional requirement. I think he is right.

If Obama was born outside the US, he is out in any case.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:03 pm 15. robotech master:

Yeah another idiot writing about things his hasn’t the first clue that he talking about. This author is not only blatantly lying but is purposely creating fake strawman arguments that he can debunk in an effort to make his points look valid and discredit his opponents by placing fake arguments in their mouths.

I’m not sure where to start with this mess but here goes.

First Factcheck….which of course can be found here….since the author didn’t bother linking to it.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html

“Factcheck.org has validated the certificate” Is total BS if you bother to review factcheck… and do some fact checking you will find NO FACTS. Its an op-ed piece with zero scientific information on it. The fact check piece can be summed up simply like this… See we have a picture of it, see it, see it and its legit why? BECAUSE WE SAY SO… Where on the other hand the ppl claiming fake/issues with it have scientific PROOF their are issues and make detailed accounts of this issues… and even better THEY ARE LEGAL EXPERTS IN THE FIELD unlike factcheck which had no experts and no facts….

This statement “Factcheck.org has validated the certificate” is a complete and blatant lie on the part of the author.

Next is the wonderful newspaper strawman. Its nice you cover info on one side but completely refuse to list anything on the other side… but that is for later.

The strawman is nice “If you believe the notice is a fake, why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.? Is it reasonable or even possible to believe that a conspiracy would go back that far? Who could have possibly known 47 years ago that Obama would be running for president and that it was necessary to print a blurb in a local paper that he was born in Hawaii rather than some other country in order to prove that he was a natural born citizen? And if this is, in fact, an actual report of Obama’s birth in Hawaii — as it surely must be — doesn’t that put to rest the entire matter of Obama’s eligibility to serve as President of the United States?”

Its well written to sound factual… however for those of us that can read above a 5th grade level easy to spot. Lets break it down.

“If you believe the notice is a fake, why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.?”

Why indeed… why do current illegal aliens seek to “planet” proof they were born in the US…? Many many ppl seek to planet proof they were born in the US for a vast number of reasons… to say otherwise is retardation at its best.

“Is it reasonable or even possible to believe that a conspiracy would go back that far?Who could have possibly known 47 years ago that Obama would be running for president and that it was necessary to print a blurb in a local paper that he was born in Hawaii rather than some other country in order to prove that he was a natural born citizen?”

Note the attempt to deflect by using a word such as conspiracy… Note also how it trying to imply some massive path setup… and tries in turn instead of providing proof of anything tries to make the actions so absurd that they are not believable. So in argument, you have instead of a pick pocket that happens to get lucky and reach his hand into some ladies purse and steal jewelry worth 3 million dollars… its now years of plotting and government black helo’s flying and such…. the whole government was out to steal this piece of jewelry to power their weather machine. The author tries to make some big story instead of a person who happen to see a nice target and steal something and happen to get lucky and get 3 mil.

The simple fact is obama’s mom could have wanted to make sure that “extra” proof. Just in case their should ever become an issue(she couldn’t have known he was going to run for pres… however should he wanted to say goto college or any of a host of basic things (much the same as current illegals do) they may challenge her on the issue. No city is going to run an in depth background check for someone going to college and such… if challenge she would only need to produce this newspaper clipping as “proof”… which any idiot will gladly take at face value.

“And if this is, in fact, an actual report of Obama’s birth in Hawaii — as it surely must be — doesn’t that put to rest the entire matter of Obama’s eligibility to serve as President of the United States?”

Next like factcheck the other states an opinion as fact… Most newspaper didn’t get info from hospitals on birth… this in many areas was done by the parents. The author tries to state “as it surely must be” as if because some newspaper writes something IT IS FACT…

He likes his little talking points because they are easy to twist… he also doesn’t talk about the other side… like how obamas family says he was born in kenya… and they were all their to see… or how kenya’s on officals say he was born there… or how obama mom was going to full time college 3 weeks later in Seattle… Theirs alot more “proof” saying obama was born in kenya if we are to use things like this news article as proof.

Next we have wonderful Hawaii officials… none of which are experts in any form… the only thing that we know as fact is that their is some kind of birth record in a vault in Hawaii… this is not proof of obama being a US citizen. Next is the fact that none of the ppl who supposely viewed obama birth cert are any form of legal expert and even on top of that the health dictator may have never seen a birth cert(other then her own and that was still likely only in short form) until that day looking up obama’s…

Next to the lawsuits… while many of the ppl filing the lawsuits are on the crazy side(including some in the “wtf insane crazy side”). However obama has not only seen content to not prove hes a US citizen he is actively fighting these lawsuits instead of showing proof and getting it over with.

Also the court are acting really really disgraceful on this issue… the BERG case being wonderful. The berg case first judge said that berg as a US citizen doesn’t have “standing” to ask for proof that obama is a citizen and meets the requirements to be a US pres. To translate this in to non-legal speak it simply goes like this. COURT: Are you ****ing insane you stupid peasant how dare you challenge “us” the government to ensure that we are in fact obeying the law and the Constitution.

The judge who made that ruling should be put in prison….

This is not some mayor election… john mccain spent months proving his right to run and he actively helped in the process instead of obama who is actively blocking the process…

Something this important shouldn’t just be brushed aside… The fact that this issue should not only be minor but should take less then 2 weeks(if quick could only take 3 days) to confirm if hes a citizen or not. All they need to do is take his birth cert and match it to the hospital records… not hard not complex problem done and over with…but NO… obama has to block every attempt to do research on it and fight it in court… one has to wonder why obama is spending MILLIONS on a minor issue that he can put to rest in DAYS…

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:03 pm 16. goy:

Rick, you’ve utterly missed the nature of this controversy, which has been created almost solely by Obama’s refusal to simply produce the original vault copy of his COLB. The only “official” document produced so far is a reissue which has been deemed invalid by some, for plausible reasons.

The Supreme Court will review this issue tomorrow. Are you claiming that the SCOTUS is stricken with “ODS” too?

In 1961 it was perfectly legal for U.S. citizens to register a live birth in HI which occurred in another country. The clipping from the Advertiser is nothing more than a list generated, from the COLBs as they were recorded at the Vital Statistics Office in HI – whether directly (in person) or as reported by HI hospitals. So the notion that it was “planted” is a silly straw man. Ann Dunham simply wanted her son’s birth to be recorded in the U.S. That wouldn’t make him a natural born citizen, however.

The most likely scenario here, given Obama’s dogged refusal to produce the original vault copy of his COLB – which is something McCain did immediately when asked due to somewhat similar circumstances – is that it lists the location of his birth as Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. No conspiracy (or “ODS”) is necessary for this to be true. Given what has transpired so far, it is in fact the most likely case.

Having said all that, please go review the origin of Bush Derangement Syndrome. Your crass moral equivalence here, using an issue deemed valid by no less that the SCOTUS, borders on the disgusting.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:14 pm 17. James:

The birth announcement above means nothing. Those are paid announcements by the family of the child. His grandparents could have done this. There are many reasons to doubt his citizenship. I just want the proof is all. If everyone else had to do it, so does he. No exceptions. No I do not were a tin foil hat. Go here and watch this video http://www.obamaforgery.com

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:17 pm 18. misanthropicus:

Epurr si muove… and no matter how you name a fraud, a fraud is still a fraud.

Topic: Barry Soetero claims that something strange happened in his way to the Senate, and a dog came and ate his birth certificate – and Rick Moran is ok with this.

Rick, no matter how you nuance and ratiocinate things, there is a stinker in this Soetero COLB story – and I and countless other are perfectly right wondering why this situation is not cleared by Soetero, and why, that one who is so good at balancing the political price of his actions prefers to dodge an issue which could be solved VERY, VERY EASY, yet which will get costlier and costlier politically if not addressed (up to a major crisis).
Why do you find an absurdity in so many people’s requests from Soetero to instruct the Hawaii authorities to make the document in cause available for examination, and then adios! Since this doesn’t happen – isn’t it legitimate to ask why?
Further, you comparison of this situation with the Clinton bashing industry doesn’t work – remember, Isikoff & Time Magazine sat on the Lewinsky story for weeks before Matt Drudge hit.
And, more important, if it weren’t for Drudge, the Levinsky story (and the ensuing revelations about the squalor of Shmucko’s presidency) wouldn’t have been made public by Time. Never-ever. Never-ever. Don’t you agree with that?

As far as little Barry’s story, we’ll see – ’till then, an interestingt piece which shows that Soetero’s associates were for long obsessing about the “hypothetical” situation of a “non-natural born” US presidential candidate. Gosh – I wonder why!

Harvested from today’s WorldNetDaily (and don’t dismiss that):

“An associate lawyer in a Chicago-based firm whose partner served on a finance committee for then-Sen. Barack Obama has advocated for the elimination of the U.S. Constitution’s requirement that a president be a “natural-born” citizen, calling the requirement “stupid” and asserting it discriminates, is outdated and undemocratic.
The paper was written in 2006 by Sarah Herlihy, just two years after Obama had won a landslide election in Illinois to the U.S. Senate. Herlihy is listed as an associate at the Chicago firm of Kirkland & Ellis. A partner in the same firm, Bruce I. Ettelson, cites his membership on the finance committees for both Obama and Sen. Richard Durbin on the corporate website.

The [Obama's legal status] issue is the subject of nearly two dozen court cases in recent weeks, including at least two that have gone to the U.S. Supreme Court.
There have been accusations that Obama was born in Kenya, not Hawaii as his campaign has stated. His paternal grandmother has stated she was in attendance at his birth in Mombasa. While Hawaii officials say they have seen his birth certificate, they have declined to release information from it.

Join more than 158,000 others in signing WND’s online petition calling for release of Barack Obama’s birth certificate and verifying beyond any shadow of a doubt his constitutional eligibility for office. [NB: Misanthropicus did.]

The Certification of Live Birth from Hawaii that the Obama campaign posted on the Internet isn’t considered by critics to resolve the issue, since during the 1960s when Obama was born, the new state issued the document to infants not necessarily born in Hawaii.

There also remain unanswered questions about his youth, when he lived and attended school in Indonesia and later when he traveled to Pakistan. The questions include whether he gave up a U.S. citizenship to attend school or traveled on another nation’s passport to Pakistan at a time when U.S. passports were unwelcome there.

Answers to those issues could determine whether Obama meets the Constitution’s demand for a “natural-born” citizen.

Herlihy’s published paper reveals that the REQUIREMENT LIKELY WAS CONSIDERED IN A NEGATIVE LIGHT BY ORGANIZATIONS LINKED TO OBAMA IN THE MONTHS BEFORE HE ANNOUNCED IN 2007 HIS CANDIDACY FOR THE PRESIDENCY [Misanthropicus CAPS].

“The natural born citizen requirement in Article II of the United States Constitution has been called the ’stupidest provision’ in the Constitution, “undecidedly un-American,” “blatantly discriminatory,” and the “Constitution’s worst provision,” Herlihy begins in her introduction to the paper titled, “Amending the Natural Born Citizen Requirement: Globalization as the Impetus and the Obstacle.”

She concludes that the “emotional” reasons to oppose changing the Constitution will prevail over the “rational” reasons demanding a change.

“The current American perceptions about the effects of globalization and the misunderstanding about what globalization actually is will result in Americans deciding that naturalized citizens should not be president because this would, in effect, be promoting globalization, Herlihy wrote.

“Although this argument is admittedly circular, because globalization is the thing that makes the need to abolish the requirement more and more persuasive, Americans’ subsequent perceptions about globalization are the very things that will prevent Americans from embracing the idea of eliminating the natural born requirement.

“Logical Americans are looking for a reason to ignore the rational reasons promoted by globalization so that they may vote based on their own emotions and instincts,” she wrote. [...]

She blamed support for the constitutional provision on “fear, racism, religious intolerance, or blind faith in the decisions of the Founding Fathers.”

WND called Herlihy’s number listed on the law firm website, and a woman answered with, “Sarah Herlihy.” But when WND identified itself as a news agency, the woman said she didn’t think “Sarah Herlihy” was in, but would take a message. There was no return call.

In the body of her argument, Herlihy said the constitutional provision simply is outdated.

“Considering that the Founding Fathers presumably included the natural born citizen clause in the Constitution partly out of fear of foreign subversion, the current stability of the American government and the intense media scrutiny of presidential candidates virtually eliminates the possibility of a ‘foreigner’ coming to America, becoming a naturalized citizen, generating enough public support to become president, and somehow using the presidency to directly benefit his homeland,” she wrote.

“The natural born citizen clause of the United States Constitution should be repealed for numerous reasons. Limiting presidential eligibility to natural born citizens discriminates against naturalized citizens, is outdated and undemocratic, and incorrectly assumes that birthplace is a proxy for loyalty,” she wrote.

Many of the reasons for keeping the limit, she wrote, “are based primarily on emotion.”

A web blogger suggested, “So it sure looks like Obama’s people have looked into the matter of ‘natural born’ as far back as early 2006. What is even more disturbing is that it would appear that they are following the thought of: ‘If the facts do not support the theory, Destroy the facts!”

The article by Herlihy is available online under law review articles from Kent University.

We’ll see – but my impression is that time is not on Soetero’s side.

Like your RightWing Nuthouse site – by the way, can you tell me who is the artist you use on your frontispice? I don’t plan to parallel you, but I might use it in a project in a different media.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:18 pm 19. robotech master:

O dave your complete lack of knowledge is fun…

FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.(correct)

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.(wrong big wrong)

My mom was born in Nigeria… to 2 US citizens who were married(and still are) and was born on an army base… she can’t run for US pres… Also to note that she
1. has a Nigeria birth cert.
2. Has a US birth cert
3. Her short hand birth cert is no different then any US citizen’s(ie just like obamas).

Even on her US birth cert long hand unless you really look its hard to tell she was born in another country.

FACT: A parent cannot renounce the citizenship of a child.(debatable depends on the laws at the time and the “act” of renouncing)

FACT: No person can renounce citizenship unless that person has achieved the age of majority at the time of renouncement.(also debatable depending on time frame and actions)

FACT: There is no evidence that, having achieved the age of majority, Barack Hussein Obama renounced his (natural-born) US citizenship. (one could argue actions that he did such as getting a passport under a foreign countries birth cert/citizenship its not clear cut and also depends on the laws at the time)

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:24 pm 20. Martge:

Gee a paid announcement in a newspaper posted by an individual is the goodness honest truth…who would have believed that….

How about the wonderful “Headline” Jay Leno has every single Monday night…are they all the Goodness honest truth. This guy and his statement just shows the state of the MSM today. No wonder newspapers are folding.

Just think if Hitler was alive today all he would have to do is post a notice in a newspaper saying he was born in Hawaii and was eligible to be president……tsk tsk tsk.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:25 pm 21. Charles Worthington-Smythe:

You want to see a birth certificate? You are a racist extremist hate spewing bigot. Besides, laws only apply to the little people.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:33 pm 22. e:

Its sad to see people defend the birth certificate conspiracy. At the very least Obama’s mother is a US citizen. That’s the requirement for natural born citizenship, be born on US soil or from a parent who is a US citizen.

Might as well save your energy for more fruitful fights.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:38 pm 23. huxley:

Rick Moran — I have less and less use for you.

Sure, I don’t have any more respect for the “Show me the Birth Certificate” crowd than you do. But how many of these people are there compared to the 9-11 Truther crowd?

Why are you harping on this contrarian stuff? Do you imagine it is some important “Speaking Truth to Power”? It’s not. Nor does it compare to the utter viciousness that GWB has been subjected to for eight years.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:40 pm 24. bob:

“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children.

Since Sen. Obama has neither renounced his U.S. citizenship nor sworn an oath of allegiance to Kenya, his Kenyan citizenship automatically expired on Aug. 4,1982.”

From Obama’s FightTheSmears Blog Site

Doesn’t matter that his Kenyan citizenship ‘expired’. What matters is what he was when he was born. Obama has admitted he was British on his father’s side, at birth.

Natural born citizen, is the requirement, Donofrio affirms.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:42 pm 25. Robert Hurley:

Rick:

What a breath of fresh air. I think you are finding that wingnuts of the right ignore the facts when they get in the way of their fantasies. These are the same type of people who believe in aliens and that in the old days believed that Eisenhower was a tool of the Soviets. No amount of logic and facts can convince a true believers whose minds are frozen in the icechest of delusion

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:47 pm 26. cedarford:

Bob – His father was an English citizen. If your mother is a citizen, and your father is a citizen, and you are born on US soil, you are a natural born citizen, in Donofrio’s understanding of the Constitutional requirement. I think he is right.

Too many Presidential candidates and VPs debunk professional poker player Donofrio’s pet theory.

This has been sniviled about before, and laughed off then. Charles Curtis, the VP from 1928-32, was born to a non-citizen Indian Mother on Indian territory. Barry Goldwater was not born in the States, but a territory. George Romney was born in Mexico to US citizen parents. Spiro Agnew had a Greek immigrant Dad. Lowell Weicker was born in Paris to an English mother. Obama born in an American State to a citizen mother and a black African.

Americans all.

******************************
goy – The Supreme Court will review this issue tomorrow. Are you claiming that the SCOTUS is stricken with “ODS” too?

No, they meet in conference to see what, if any, nutball lawsuits they will take for review. That they do that lends no credence to the nutballs.

Dec 4, 2008 - 8:54 pm 27. Rachel Peepers:

Rick,

You accept Al Franken’s use of forensics to uncover Franken votes while you condemn Republicans for insisting Obama present a birth certificate.

For years, Democrats have gone to extreme methods to undo election losses. It doesn’t surprise me that Republicans are now doing the same. What goes around comes around.

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:54 pm 28. robotech master:

Its nice to see the that ppl like rick are here to throw their own strawman in there… Those are some nice ones cedarford… none of which matter since they are all strawman…. the only ones of even remote issue are George Romney and Lowell weicker neither of which ran for president or were elected and thus your strawman are pointless….

Its nice to see only name calling, whining and o yes… facts… or the complete lack of them. Unlike robert hurley and cedarford who do nothing but whine, project, whine, whine alot, sling insults, redirect and a whole host of issues at least Charles Worthington-Smythe is honest hehe

Dec 4, 2008 - 9:59 pm 29. 24AheadDotCom:

Rick Moran is a liar. The “head of the Hawaiian health department and the Republican governor” never attested “to the validity of Obama’s actual birth certificate”.

All they said was that the cert was on file. It would be illegal for them to verify it or give out the information on it in any other way.

Here’s a round-up of others who’ve lied in a similar fashion, and see the link in the summary box for an exhaustive discussion of the “proof” that’s so far been provided:

http://24ahead.com/s/obama-citizenship

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:13 pm 30. AnninCA:

In today’s blog world, if the tin-foil hatters take over, then anyone not going with the flow is a “troll.”

So they like talking to one another, obviously, and please don’t interfere with their fantasies by bringing up relevant points.

When you mention, for example, that the State of Hawaii has confirmed his birth certificate as legal and valid, you’re met with disdain. Don’t stop the story of this “great” lawsuit by pointing out the facts.

If you mention that a citizen demanding evidence is equivalent to allowing, then, ANYONE to demand to see DNA evidence that your child is, in fact, your child…..that bit of legal logic flies right past.

Oh well, the nice part about the internet is that these groups end up talking in ever-insular circles. They only cite one another, and the circle grows smaller and smaller, until one day……*evaporation*.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:27 pm 31. AnninCA:

2-4…..the statement by the governor of Hawaii was published. You’re wrong.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:32 pm 32. Joshua:

I see no one’s brought up the elephant in the room yet… I might as well do the honors.

Even if there is something to the birth-certificate controversy, that doesn’t change the small fact that Barack Obama won the presidential election. It’s one thing for federal courts to strike down state laws, overturn state referenda, or intervene in state political races. That sort of thing is commonplace. But the presidential election is on a whole different level, if not in a whole different universe.

Regardless of what the law and/or the Constitution say, would any judge in any U.S. court really have the guts to tell 67 million voters across the country, “Sorry, the guy you voted for isn’t eligible” and effectively wipe out the signature event of the American political system? Maybe it’s just my cynicism combined with campaign weariness and late-night fatigue talking, but I seriously doubt it. In fact I fully expect any court faced with such a situation to bend as far over backwards as need be to declare Obama eligible for the Presidency.

Dec 4, 2008 - 10:57 pm 33. Pajamas Media » Yes, Virginia, There Is Obama Derangement Syndrome | kozmom:

[...] details: Pajamas Media » Yes, Virginia, There Is Obama Derangement Syndrome [...]

Dec 4, 2008 - 11:59 pm 34. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran
RE: Heh

The birth certificate controversy shows that the only bipartisanship in America today is wild, unreasoning hatred for one’s political foes. — Rick Moran

Gee, Rick….since when is simply asking for a birth certificate ‘unreasoning hatred’?

After all, various government agencies ask ME and others to provide one at certain important times. You know, like the people who issue Social Security Numbers.

Do they exhibit ‘unreasoning hatred’ of all of US by doing so?

RE: Furthermore

What information on the birth certificate is so essential to Obama that it must be kept secret? Looking at mine I don’t see anything that would cause me to be worried if others saw it.

Or is there something on yours that is essential that you keep it from anyone interested in stealing YOUR identity?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[If once you forfeit the confidence of your fellow-citizens, you can never regain their respect and esteem. -- Abraham Lincoln]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:16 am 35. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Joshua
RE: That Darned Elephant

Even if there is something to the birth-certificate controversy, that doesn’t change the small fact that Barack Obama won the presidential election. — Joshua

Joshua…

…if there IS something to the birth-certificate controversy, that would be substantial, it would be that Obama was NOT born in the United States or any territory that would be recognized as under the jurisdiction thereof.

The consequence being that he could not have run for the office of the President of the United States.

If it were possible for a non-natural born citizen to run for said office, the Republicans could have put up Arnold the Governator. And the Democrats could have put up Saddam Hussein, if Bush hadn’t killed him.

Why you cannot grasp that simple fact speaks volumes on the quality of the vaunted American public education system.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[All the rights secured to the citizens under the Constitution are worth nothing, and a mere bubble, except guaranteed to them by an independent and virtuous Judiciary. -- Andrew Jackson]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:21 am 36. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Dave
RE: Really?

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth. — Dave

Care to provide the legal evidence that supports that claim?

Or is it all in your mind?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[It's all in the mind, ya know.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:26 am 37. Ben Florsheim:

It is precisely the fact that the Obama crowd have invested so much time and propaganda effort waving the WRONG certificate in our faces that makes a reasonable person suspicious.

The “certificate of live birth” states that the State of Hawaii now DEEMS Obama to have been born in Honolulu. However, under standard procedures in Hawaii (and most other states), this could be a fiction created in the course of a later adoption, name change etc. It does not necessarily tell us anything about his birth.

If you read the advertisement, you will note that it does NOT state where the child was born. Moreover, it seems that Obama senior was no longer living with his mother at the time.

If Obama was indeed been born outside the U.S. to his mother and her non-citizen husband, he would not have been a U.S. citizen under the laws at the time of birth, and thus is not a “natural born” citizen eligible to serve as president.

Of course, it is entirely possible that Barry was born in Hawaii, but is hiding something else – e.g. his birth certificate was in a different name, or no father’s name appears on the birth certificate. These facts would be personally embarrassing, but have no bearing on presidential eligibility.

Incidentally, FATCHECK.ORG (sic) is also plain wrong in claiming that Obama lost his Kenyan citizenship when he was 21. Under the Kenyan constitution in force at the time, his Kenyan citizenship was lost (due to dual nationality) 2 years later, when he turned 23. (However, former foreign citizenship has no bearing on “natural born” status.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:21 am 38. SamIam:

There is no ODS regarding this issue unless it continues after he releases the original documents to scrutiny. It is indeed a continuing, valid concern fed by Obama’s refusal to do so.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:35 am 39. Ben Florsheim:

Joshua is right, of course – the Supremes won’t touch this case with a 10 foot barge pole. The political implications are orders of magnitude beyond containment.

Most likely, they will simply decline to hear the matter without comment.

Alternatively, they will punt by objecting on grounds of “standing” (hard to argue against Alan Keyes), or finding that this matter is for Congress to resolve.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:55 am 40. fear Obama:

There is that word ‘RACISTS’ again.

If we question Obama we are all ‘RACISTS’?

I question Obama picking Hillary for Sect. Of State?

OH! NO!- I must be a ‘RACISTS’.

I guess Islamic extremest terrorist calling Obama an Uncle Tom House Negro are not terrorists but ‘RACISTS’? I just hope the ‘RACISTS’ don’t set off an atomic device in downtown Chicago.

Anyway….
The entire question of Obamas birth certificate is purely academic.

The Democrat controlled Senate and House will never let the Anointed One ‘President Elect’ be removed, impeached, slandered, chastised, or questioned, no matter what the Supremest Court clowns decide.

Unless he upsets their balance of Clinton-Reid-Peloski power?

Then Congress might turn ‘RACISTS’.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:15 am 41. Rick Moran:

Hey! Tin foil hatters! Here’s some more incontrovertible evidence you can ignore.

From yesterday’s Honolulu Advertiser:

http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/20081101/NEWS05/811010345/1001/localnewsfront

“State Health Department employees continue to be barraged by requests from people demanding to see Barack Obama’s birth certificate, including some who have called the department’s registrar of vital statistics at home — in the middle of the night.

“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.”

So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?

“I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”

So must we all.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:33 am 42. Terry Gain:

“The above announcement of Obama’s birth appeared in the Honolulu Advertiser in August of 1961.”

Oh please. It appeared 9 days after hs birth. Why would you prefer this to production of his COLB?

As a lawyer whenever my client has a document which will disprove an allegation against him I produce it immediately to put the matter to rest. There is a controversy as to whether Obama was born in Kenya or Hawaii, Unlike cedarford I have no personal knowlwdge where he was born.

If Obama was born in Kenya we are sitting on a constitutional crisis of epic proportions. It is not inappropriate to demand that the COLB be produced. In fact it is irresponsible not to produce it and put the matter to rest.

Those who suggest this controversy bears any resemblance to 9/11 Tutherism are disingenuous, irrational or perhaps just plain stupid. It is a dishonest attempt to deflect attention away from a legitimate inquiry. We know who carried out the 9/11 attacks. Bush was Governor of Texas while they were being planned.

Until the COLB is produced and authenticated we don’t know where Obama was born. And the person responsible for the controversy is the person who could end it today.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:56 am 43. Terry Gain:

“So, in what likely will be a vain attempt to halt the inquiries, Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.
Will this be enough to quiet the doubters?”
—
No. In the real world when there is an issue as to the authenticity of a document it is produced and examined by experts on both sides.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:00 am 44. Terry Gain:

By the way Rick have you grabbed a few shakes to go with those straws?.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:02 am 45. sydney jane:

Oh, please, what’s the big deal? Just release the original certificate of birth. The fact that this simple thing HASN’T been done is what makes me have doubts. Didn’t McCain release his, quickly, when he was questioned?

And, then there’s Obama’s Kenyan relatives who swear that he was born and his grandmother says she was there when he was born in Kenya and she was there at the hospital. Why would she lie? What is her political motivation?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:33 am 46. Tony R:

Rick wrote:

““I hope so,” Fukino said. “We need to get some work done.”

So must we all.”

So must we all? Then what are you doing writing a column purporting to decry Right v Left loonies and then harp on about one isolated issue which was raised not just by the Right but also by Hillary’s Lefty supporters? If you have work to do then don’t drag up a topic that isn’t even particularly topical in the PJM sphere.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:36 am 47. Douglas Bogle:

Never fear Obama is here.

More smoke and mirrors. Simple, the fact is there is some reason the “O” does not want his birth certificate publicized.

A while back people thought it could be that it has the religion as Muslim. If indeed it says this, there will be a portion of the Obama voters that will feel they have been lied to.
This could cause the statement, ” I would never have voted for him if I knew…” Causing a backlash.

Now, the “O” has never lied to the American people.

Never fear Obama is here.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:02 am 48. Larry Poe:

I do not think the Supreme Court will take any action to stay the electoral college vote, but I believe that you and most of your posters miss the point of many of the lawsuits. The issue is not whether Obama is a citizen. He undoubtedly is. The issue is whether he is a natural born citizen, as required by the constitution. P. A. Madison at the Federalist Blog has posted a thorough discussion of the distinction, in which the following is stated:

“Therefore, we can say with confidence that a natural-born citizen of the United States means those persons born whose father the United States already has an established jurisdiction over, i.e., born to father’s who are themselves citizens of the United States. A person who had been born under a double allegiance cannot be said to be a natural-born citizen of the United States because such status is not recognized (only in fiction of law). A child born to an American mother and alien father could be said to be a citizen of the United States by some affirmative act of law but never entitled to be a natural-born citizen because through laws of nature the child inherits the condition of their father.”

Read the whole thing at http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html. I’m not a lawyer, but it does not appear that the position that Obama is not a natural born citizen can be dismissed as easily as you do in your post. His birth in Honolulu establishes that he is a citizen. It does not make him a natural born citizen.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:20 am 49. SEW:

Let’s see if Obama can get a passport with the “newspaper announcement of birth.” Or a driver’s license? Or FBI clearance for a job!! Or any of those things with a “certificate of birth.” No wonder it took this idiot so long to log on to the internet. Oh, yea, why has Francois Kerry not followed through with release of his full military record as promised? Or his threats of lawsuits which would actually require release of same during discovery? More right wing nuts? Or liberals that don’t comprehend simply basic reason!!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:20 am 50. Valerie:

The Obama Campaign was very much interested in John McCain’s citizenship papers, and he produced them.

There is nothing wrong with expecting Barack Obama to do the same.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:05 am 51. susan:

It’s so funny to see the obamatrons performing OS on their candidate.

What about this: someone who has been bragging all along about his outstanding IQ, his outstanding school carreer, his outstanding studying ability doesn’t release his school records.

Isn’t it strange? You would suppose someone as arrogant as him would release them to further corroborate is superior intelligence.

Instead they are hidden. I bet it’s because somewhere there it’s written that he listed himself as a foreigner to be able to access the university more easily.

There is no other reason for someone to hide school records when they are so outstanding.

More power to others, who released them even if they weren’t that outstanding. I rather have someone who graduated bottom of his class on his own merit, rather than a pompous ass graduating thanks to tricks.

What a fraud this man is. I pity poor old USA.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:09 am 52. CTN:

After reading this article, two things became abundantly clear to me: First, Mr. Moran is completely ignorant of the primary question at the center of this controversy, as well as the evidence that Obama has presented to answer that question. Second, Mr. Moran would rather advance abusive ad hominems, for who knows what reason, than actually report facts.

Therefore, I have a few questions for Mr. Moran, or even the editors of this website who approved of this irresponsible twaddle:

1. Can you explain to us why the founding fathers inserted Article II Section I into the US Constitution?
2. Can you please tell us if SCOTUS has ever defined a “natural born citizen” as it applies to this context?
3. Can you tell us why you believe that Obama meets the constitutional requirement for POTUS even though he has already conceded that he was a citizen of Kenya by birth and a real investigative reporter discovered that he was once a citizen of Indonesia?
4. And as long as I’m on it, can you tell us if Obama’s Indonesian citizenship was natural or naturalized?
5. Finally, regarding your link in comment 41: Can you please tell us if the Hawaiian who claims to have seen Obama’s Certificate of Birth acted in accordance with Hawaiian code and, more importantly, if he established that Obama is a “natural born citizen” pursuant to the terms of the Constitution?

I assure that I’m not wearing a tinfoil hat when I ask these questions, so I sincerely ask you to remove your dunce cap before you answer them.

Take a word from someone who means you no harm: You should retract this article and apologize for it, and then write something that is actually grounded in fact, such as these two helpful pieces:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/11/why_the_barack_obama_birth_cer.html

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin84.htm

You, and the boneheads who published this trash, are really irresponsible.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:11 am 53. Little Banana:

This has nothing to do with ODA and is probably old news to some of you, but I just read in today’s paper (Ireland) that Obama has a half brother in China. Is this true and is it old or new news?

Good God! His father sure did get around….!

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:12 am 54. cedarford:

robotech master – Those are some nice ones cedarford… none of which matter since they are all strawman…. the only ones of even remote issue are George Romney and Lowell weicker neither of which ran for president or were elected and thus your strawman are pointless….

Uh, Chochise..George Romney and Wiecker both filed as Presidential Candidates and ran. As for the others, they are all relevant to Donofrio’s silly argument that ONLY people BOTH born in an existing US State AND of TWO American citizens are “native born”.
Glad to see you also think Donofrio’s case is a pile of crap on the “two citizens” as parents AND born in a US State argument.

*****************
Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran
RE: Heh

“The birth certificate controversy shows that the only bipartisanship in America today is wild, unreasoning hatred for one’s political foes.” — Rick Moran

Gee, Rick….since when is simply asking for a birth certificate ‘unreasoning hatred’?

Yah, sure Pelto. I think most people are wise to the Truthers. We all have a good idea that when someone “simply asks” for evidence the Jews did not blow up the WTC, demands “evidence” that Hillary had an alibi, and her bank records and phone calls show she didn’t hire a hitman – and kill Vince Foster.

It’s pure hatred disguised in a passive-agressive way as a “quest for the truth”.

Moran is right. These sort of people, possibly including you, are not motivated by curiosity or by “just innocently wanting more evidence”. They are motivated by raw hatred for America, Bush, the Clintons, Obama….THAT is why they are so impervious to the facts.
People with simple curiosity or innocently wanting evidence are rapidly satiated with a little common sense or hearing that the people in charge of birth records in Hawaii have concluded it is a valid cert. Not various Truthers. Giving them the facts or a piece of evidence they want only produces new demands that a “court” opine on the facts or the facts aren’t “certified facts”. When a court does accept the facts, it is evidence the courts too, are in on the Conspiracy.

Another facet of the Truthers is the nefarious nature of their Conspiracies…which mainly aim to destroy the public’s belief in the integrity of democratic institutions. They seek to delegitimize Presidents, our allies (Israel, the UK), our institutions (CIA, the Navy that downed TWA Flight 800 because possibly Vince Foster’s hitman was onboard – on orders from the Clintons – then involved 800 Navy sailors who swore an oath of service willingly participating in the “coverup”).
Truthers enable our enemies.
Trust me, Arabs lap up Truther tales of the Mossad blowing up the WTC. Russia and China are happy if Truthers create good propaganda they can use on their own masses to claim the President and Commander in Chief of America is not legally elected, is a conniving mass murderer, etc.

*********************
But while Truthers have a cancerous impact on the body politic and weaken our society…they only do so slightly because most people, free of their hatreds, readily distinguish Truthers from the Grassy Knollers up to the Secret Kenyan Birth folks as the small band of nutballs and pack of assholes they are. And as reviled as Truthers have become to most Americans, the most effective thing to confront their hatreds is to laugh at them, point them out as the fools & psychotics they are.

I freely bash them because the present strains of Truther cancer do have the tendency to brand rational Republicans a whiff of the taint of their their deranged ideology.

****************
Terry Gain – There is a controversy as to whether Obama was born in Kenya or Hawaii, Unlike cedarford I have no personal knowlwdge where he was born.

I never said I had personal knowledge. But to me and most rational people, the idea of a vast conspiracy to fly Ann Obama to Kenya on a very expensive and medically dangerous flight to give birth weeks after she completed her university semester? With both her and her husband unemployed, her mother still a secretary, not the small exec she became 20 years later – to pay for a roundtrip ticket costing half of what the Durham grandparents made in a year? Against doctors advice? Deliver in a primitive Luong village of poor sanitation and nothing but a walk-in clinic? Then figure out he might be President someday – so rely on the others in the vast conspiracy – to make a fake birth certificate and hospital records then have someone pretending to be from the Hospital call the media for the weekly baby births announcement?(Oh, and secretly kill the real nurse so the paper didn’t get two different birth lists?)
Tell you what, go to 1,000 American women in their 9th month, having their 1st baby, and say you want to have them have the baby in black Africa and pay for a hugely expensive round-trip ticket (in 1961 air travel was far more expensive than now). I suspect the general response you Truthers would get would be
“Are you f*cking crazy??”

And with Truthers, well, yes, some are hateful and others are plain crazy.

Witness the Lefty Truthers sliming Palin who maintained they were simply demanding some innocent small things – to clear their minds and put themselves at ease that a Secret Birth involving Palins underage daughter and an Alaskan “coverup” – about Palin and Travis didn’t exist. Simple things, like her baby’s birth Certificate and a copy of her medical gynecological records turned over to a Truther lawyer for “analysis by experts and a judge who honors rule of law”.
Palin gave the figurative response through the campaigns lawyers – “You demand my baby’s birth certificate? My medical records? F*ck off, assholes.”

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:12 am 55. TomJW:

32. Joshua:
Dec 4, 2008 – 10:57 pm

So Joshua, we drop being a nation of laws and start becoming a nation ruled by those with the most guts. I think Stalin and Mao already did that.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 am 56. misanthropicus:

To: Hurley, Cedarford and the rest of the Obamatrolls swarming this thread
From: Oliver Stone:
RE: anti-Obamama conspiracy

A) Is the Franziskus school enrollement page (Djakarta) which describes Obama as (1) Muslim, (2) Indonesian citizen, and (3) as “Barry” also a hallucination?
The AP and other agencies which have dealt with that have all attested its authenticity – so, can any Obamatroll come with an explanation bridging Obama’s alleged early American citizenship to his Indonesian years, then back, to his American status return?

B) Why doesn’t Obama make available for examination his Illinois state bar application, where many would be interested to check the answer at: “under what other names, if any, did you ever conduct business?” Why is this application, like so many other records of him (medical records) is kept under lock?

C) His travel papers to Pakistan in 1981 – there is no record of Obama having an US issued travel document when visiting Pakistan. Can any Obamatroll enter in a contortion process and explain that?

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:17 am 57. Spider79:

I had my Commercial Drivers License renewed in Texas last week and had to go home and get my ORIGINAL birth certificate before they would renew it. Good grief. It’s not like I’m runninig for President or anything.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:19 am 58. Ann:

One of America’s great stabilizing realities has always been that we are “a nation of laws”.

Our Constitution isn’t worth the paper it’s written on if it is not honored in reality. This dispute is based in that simple reference point. The Constitution defines what qualifies a person for the Presidency and–WHOA! There are some people who would like to be sure that is being honored! How hateful is that???!!! Who do they think they are, making that kind of demand! Unreasonable, hateful people!

We’ve not only lost the language; we’ve lost any sense of commonality regarding what we know, what our reference points are, what our heritage is and what constitutes the United States of America.

The Chinese Constitution guarantees freedom of religion to the Chinese people. That’s not working out so well for them for the simple reason that the provision is not honored in every day reality.

You hatemongers who want to yell “HATE SPEECH” every time a conservative says, “Now wait a minute….” need to wake up. Of course, I know you won’t. You are the ones who have been living, moment to moment, on unreasoning hatred for your political foes for years and years.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:23 am 59. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran
RE: Tin-Foil Hatters?

“This has gotten ridiculous,” state health director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said yesterday. “There are plenty of other, important things to focus on, like the economy, taxes, energy.” — Rick Moran

The argument, that Fukino’s statement, provides evidence that Obama has a Hawaiian birth certificate wouldn’t hold up in even a JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL debate tournament. Even if it had an intelligent elementary school student as the judge.

And, as far as ’statements’ from government officials go….

….I trust them as far as I trust Senator Kerry’s being a war-hero. I’ve been lied to by government officials. So have YOU, I’ll wager. So why do you trust them in the first place…at their word…on something as important as this?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[In God we trust. Everyone else needs to provide proper paperwork.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:36 am 60. Chuck Pelto:

TO: cedarford
RE: [OT] How Gullible Can You Get

Are you saying there are no such things as ‘conspiracies’? And you claim to have been a military officer?

Companies conspire against their competition all the time. Countries do the same. And you think politicans DON’T?

I thought better of your intelligence and experience. But instead, you’re nothing more than the typical politically-motivated ‘progressive’ we encounter all too often. All you do is talk in order to avoid understanding.

Too bad….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Oratory: A conspiracy between speech and action to cheat understanding.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:42 am 61. Peter the Sub Guy:

13. Dave wrote:
FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.

Peter responds: Dave needs to check his facts better. Sorry, dave, but just because your parents may be US citizens does NOT automatically make you a US citizen if you are born outside the US. You must be born on sovereign US territory (ie Military base, embassy, legal territory like Guam or the Panama Canal Zone when it was a US protectorate, US naval vessel, etc). If you are, for example, born in a hospital in England, even if you come from 10 generations of US citizens, the law says you are an English citizen and therefore inelegible to be POTUS.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:43 am 62. dan:

i don’t think there’s much to the birth certificate thing, personally. i’d be shocked if i were wrong. but i am suspicious about obama’s friends and the obvious help he got along the way. there is a paranoid style in american politics, and it is bipartisan (preferrably “nonpartisan”), but the more conventional, legitimate history that emerges from the Cold War period concerning what exactly the KGB was and did, the more it we should simply realize that the Left’s paranoid image of the CIA is exactly what the KGB was and is. see? look at the little piece written by David Kahane in NRO on the eve of the election.

but of course the concern is in all probability misplaced. part of its attraction is that it’s just so damn entertaining. also, Obama is and has always been pretty much totally full of sh*t (and raised 750 MILLION DOLLARS), so why not indulge a little.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:50 am 63. jdoe:

It’s payback time for all of the vile personal attacks against George Bush, Dick Cheney, General Petraeus and Sarah Palin et. al. put forward by the Leftist media elites, over the past 8 years. They have succeeded in lowering the bar for public discourse to such an extent that it may never recover. And frankly, that’s just fine with me because my tolerance for the Left has been completely expended by their excesses. Now it’s our turn. After January 21st it’s going to be Obama bashing time. Personally, I can’t wait to get the party started!!!

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:51 am 64. Terry Gain:

cedarford

I prefer that the COLB be authenticated to your silly and unpersuasive speculation about conspiracies. As a litigation lawyer I am trained to produce and demand the best evidence. This is obviously a concept foreign to you. You are out of your league and you should drop the ad hominens as they only make you look inadequate.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:54 am 65. Terry Gain:

Oh, and if Palin had been elected VP the MSM would be demanding a video of her birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:55 am 66. Peter the Sub Guy:

32. Joshua wrote:
Regardless of what the law and/or the Constitution say, would any judge in any U.S. court really have the guts to tell 67 million voters across the country, “Sorry, the guy you voted for isn’t eligible” and effectively wipe out the signature event of the American political system? Maybe it’s just my cynicism combined with campaign weariness and late-night fatigue talking, but I seriously doubt it. In fact I fully expect any court faced with such a situation to bend as far over backwards as need be to declare Obama eligible for the Presidency.

Peter responds: So let me get this straight? What you, Joshua, are saying is that Obama is ABOVE the law? Above the CONSTITUTION, the HIGHEST law in the land? That, should it turn out that he is NOt a US citizen, that the entire US shoud say, “oh, heck with that pesky little Constitution, it doesn’t mean anything anyway’? Is THAT what you are SAYING??? That the Constitution and Laws mean NOTHING if they stand in the way of the almighty Obama being ordained into his rightful office???

I’m sorry, but I took an oath to “Protect and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United States from all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.” And if it ever comes to light that Obama lied, cheated and stole his way to the hightest office in the land, I will be the first to demand his removal, by whatever means necessary.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:55 am 67. Spider79:

Silly Wingnuts! Look what you’ve done now. You have caused Mr. Moran to interrupt his busy morning. Fortunately he has laid the entire controversy to rest. The b.c. is without doubt legititimate. 2 guys in Hawaii say so. So there.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:06 am 68. Robert Hurley:

Rick:

You did not really think you would get a rational response from this crowd did you? Their hatred for Obama blinds them from any rational thought. You can see how the Jonestown suicides occured. Ironically, they are guilty of the same behavior they accuse the “obamatrons” having. This is all very rich as their insanity insures that any other statement they make will be treated as more insanity. The left must be revelling in see them discredit the conservative movement

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:09 am 69. Xanthippe:

Welcome to the internet, where no conspiracy is too crazy.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of people do not believe these theories – whether they are espoused on the left or the right, but adding fuel to the fire probably ensures that they gather a few more adherents.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:19 am 70. Walt:

Having lived in foreign countries for over 20-years of my life, I have become very familiar with the laws governing US citizenship regarding those born overseas.

May I give you a couple of examples:
A child is born to an Army Captain and his wife(both US citizens) in Germany while they are assigned to duty in Germany. The child is born an American!

A child is born to an engineer and his wife (both US citizens) in Japan while he is employed by Toyota in Japan. The child is born a Japanese!

The difference is that the Army Captain is there representing the US (the same applies to foreign diplomats, etc.).

The engineer is in Japan of his own volition and bears the responsibility of where his child is born and the resultant citizenship.

The above is the reason Sen. McCain holds a valid US citizenship even though born in Panama – his father was stationed there in the Navy at the time.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:23 am 71. susan:

LOL, robert hurley lecturing others about derangement syndrome

what’s next? a pedophile warning us about the perils of children?

oh and, to further prove you are full of it

“Ironically, they are guilty of the same behavior they accuse the “obamatrons” having. ”

sorry but I fail to see where and when McCain has been idolized and branded as perfect man, perfect human being, saviour, messiah and such. Not even Reagan nowadays is revered so much.

Sorry robert, if you take your head out of your ass long enough you will find out that the true descendants of the jonestown cult are you and your bunch. Nobody else.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:26 am 72. Terry Gain:

“Robert Hurley:

Rick:

You did not really think you would get a rational response from this crowd did you? ”

-

Well certainly not from you.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:38 am 73. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Rick Moran & Tin-Foil Hatter Allegation

I find it interesting that Rick failed to answer my question about how it is ‘unreasoning hatred’ that someone should ask to see a simple official document with proper information, signatures and seals.

Instead of addressing the question, he ‘raises’ the level of debate/discussion to the ad hom.

An interesting tactic practiced by lawyers, as described in the Lawyer’s Rule:

[1] If the Law is against you, argue the facts.
[2] If the facts are against you, argue the Law.
[3] If the Law and the facts are against you, call the other side names.
—
The Official Rules: A Compendium of Truths and Laws for Living

The Law here being that only a natural-born citizen of the United States can be president thereof.

The fact here being uncertain—and therefore suspect—as long as no one is willing to produce for examination an official, signed and sealed, document that Obama was indeed born in Hawaii, as opposed to Kenya; where his living grandmother claims she witnessed it.

So, being unable to refute option 1 or provide option 2, Rick goes for option #3…..’tin-hat hatters’….

Great work, that….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Incredibly rude and childish comments recognized.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:40 am 74. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. About that article in the Honolulu Advertiser…

…I’m reminded that during the last General Election, the Boston Globe was telling outright and refuted lies about Governor Palin.

And Rick TRUSTS newspapers?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:43 am 75. Preposteroso:

As has been said many times in many places, the thing about the birth certificate is easily laid to rest by simply showing the birth certificate. Photographs of a birth certificate are not a birth certificate. The next time a policeman stops me and asks to see my driving licence he is likely to arrest me and put me in prison if I attempt to palm him off with a photograph of my driving licence. SHOW US YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE AND WE’LL ALL PIPE DOWN! GO ON, SHOW IT!

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:44 am 76. Robert Hurley:

Poor Susan revealing her bile again – DO you have children?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:47 am 77. misanthropicus:

RE #68/R.Hurley, Cedarford & Cie. -

If one’s gotten yellow glowing hair, if one’s gotten huge orange pants w/green suspenders, if one’s gotten wurst-sized red nose, if one’s gotten #44 red shoes, if one’s twisting & squeaking colored balloons, if there’s abunch of toddlers picking their noses around him, if he’s quacking like a Soetero troll… well, can’t be but a Soeterotroll.

Hurley & Cie, all what you do is obfuscating and attributting to others the results of the psychological evalutions done on you – still, I give you the chance to impress everybody explaining the Franziskus school/Barry Soetero registration form matter (see post #56).
Do it clowns, come with a credible explanation bridgeing Soetero’s jump from, supposedly US citizen (Hawaii) to certified Indonesian citizenship (Franziskus documentation), then back to the supposedly current US citizenship.
Do it – squeak those colored balloons, we’ll observe your procedures.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:51 am 78. RE:

Conspiracy threoists are a fact of life. Mr. Moran needs to get over it. His self righteous posturing and lecturing is every bit as obnoxious as are the ‘truthers’. It’s just more useless noise.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:53 am 79. Tony R:

Susan,

I’m surprised you actually still read the text of Robert Hurleys “contributions”.

I see the name, I skip over it and look for the next actual proper post. Troll-speak is just too repetitive to be worth reading.

For some strange reason I thought that the Robert Hurley’s of the web would leave PJM alone once their saviour was annointed but I don’t know why I thought that now. I forgot that they live for issuing insults and negativity from their dark basements in between their self-abuse sessions.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:00 am 80. Brian Richard Allen:

Mr Moran employs all of the debating skills of a Saul Alinsky grad — and then throws in a huge dollop of moral equivilence.

The self and own culture loathing mobbed-up Marxist murtadd Muslim Arab-African, (SOA)B Hussein bin B Hussayn bin Hussayn Muhummad, (from now on to be known as NMFingP! — or as Zero) presently pretends to the orifice of the “presidente” erect — or some such Cli’ton-esqely ego-maniacal arrogance. To which delusionally-fantasized “office” Zero claims to have been “elected.” Apparently by his fellow cryptofascists and by America’s deluded, deceived and deranged. And by the required around 10 million third world criminal aliens, the felons, the dead, the imaginary, by Disney characters and, in fifty states, by Texas football teams. NMFingP! — in a New York minute — can put the demands for his birth certificate to rest. By producing an un-tampered-with birth certificate.

Presidents Bush and Bush and Reagan, on the other hand, couldn’t put to rest the gross libels and slanders promulgated in just one day — lets pick today, December 5 2008. Not even if they hired every honest American lawyer and spent like the current full blown fascist congress for the next one hundred years.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:02 am 81. Jeff Weimer:

Okay people, here’s the LAW concerning citizenship, as hosted by Cornell so I’d trust it. This should put pat ANY of this nonsense about Obama’s citizenship in reference to Donofrio. He is greatly mistaken, to the point it seeems he hasn’t EVEN READ THE LAW. but don’t take my word for it, READ it!

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

Good lord, I don’t always agree with Robert Hurley (he’s got his own case of BDS), but the evidence is overwhelming.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:03 am 82. AnOldFriend:

Is it Rick Moran or Rick Moron? Rick do you always buy everything on face value? Ask yourself why Barack has spent so much time energy and money to fight this issue rather than just provide his birth certificate. Do some more research on the subject Rick and you will find that in Hawaii you can get a certificate of live birth even if you were not born there.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:04 am 83. susan:

Poor Robert, defending the indefensible and having a virtual love affair with an empty suit – DO you have a woman?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:16 am 84. The Wizard:

If Obama was truly born in Hawaii, just present the original birth certificate with his little foot print on it. The problem is, his family all say he was born in Kenya, as his mother could not travel because of her pregnancy. He father was Kenyan, living in Kenyan. That would make Obama Kenyan, not a US citizen. His birth was registered upon her return. The alledged “birth certificate” uses language, i.e. African American, that was not used in 1961!!!!! It is believed to be a doctored copy of his sister’s certificate, forged for his benefit! Do you really think he went to Hawaii to visit his grandmother in the nidst of his election….I think not. A man with $750,000,000 can buy a lot of silence, and at a time the Phillip Berg case was on the docket. I think the Obamanation is a liar, fraud and a racist, certainly not deserving of the presidency.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:20 am 85. CTN:

Jeff Weimer,

I for one want to thank you for providing the link that addresses citizenship. I’m sure I speak for everyone on this side of the issue when I say it was truly helpful and informative insofar as it addressed the question of US citizenship.

However, I noticed that the link you furnished failed to define a “natural born citizen.” Moreover, I also noticed that it neglected to answer the questions of dual citizenship resulting from birth and dual citizenship as a result of (possible) naturalization in a country that prohibited dual citizenship at the time period in question.

If you could provide us with that link, I’m sure everyone would appreciate it.

Thanks.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 86. Rashputin:

Derangement Syndrome – Like Hitler, Obama isn’t a natural born citizen of the country he intends to control. Also like Hitler, he intends to establish his own corps of national internal security troops and has made it clear he intends to fund and equip them as well as the nation’s regular forces. If he announces great national highway projects and something like the VolksChevy, the comparison will become even more striking.

Honest question – why did the democrat party not have a copy of Obama’s birth certificate on file before they permitted him to run in the primaries, much less once he became their nation al candidate? He must know whether the can produce the proper documents, and if so, they should have been forthcoming a long time ago. Why are they locked up rather than being part of the record already?

I guess to Rick there’s no real difference between the two.
Regards

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 87. Frank:

I don’t personally believe Obama was born outside the United States, but I don’t believe he has adequate citizenship.

For to become a citizen of Indonesia (as Obama was) you must renounce the citizenship of other nations. Indonesia does not allow dual citizenship. And as far as anyone can tell so far, when Obama and family moved back to America, no one ever went to the trouble of renewing his citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 88. Someguy:

A government is a representation of those it “represents”. When it becomes apparent that we are no longer a country of laws…..breaking the law will become contagious.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 am 89. Brian Richard Allen:

Thank you “susan” for #71. Took the words from me mouth.

Poor cryptofascistic and/or deceived, deluded and deranged FasciSSocialst Psychosis suffering Zero worshippers every time , by their definitive Tourette’s-like projection of their driving psychopathology, expose themslves like a psychopathic Cli’ton to a fat and/or ugly intern.

Funny, isn’t it though, that almost nothing any of them can say, bad or good, about either our blokes — or theirs, is true. And even a paragraph as crazily “liberal-speak” spoke as that above this cannot be fact-check faulted.

<:^)~<

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:29 am 90. seven:

No certificate and someone wants the one with a doctors signature and the foot print? All the Democratic intellectuals know that black babies using black ink on white paper don’t leave a foot print.
It would be solid.Republicans know the truth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:32 am 91. Robert Hurley:

Susan:

I take that as a no – Good thing -

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:33 am 92. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Why….

Poor Susan revealing her bile again – DO you have children? — Robert Hurley

…is it that when these supposedly ‘intelligent’ people cannot refute facts or Law, the ALWAYS go for the ad hom.

I mean, it’s not just silly Robert Hurley, but it’s Rick Moran and Cedarford as well.

I thought the latter two were rather intelligent, but these last few days, between the Hillary nomination for SecState and Obama’s questionable citizenship, they’ve seriously gone off the deep end in their efforts to protect The One….

….as opposed to having an abiding interest in seeking the truth of a matter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Whose side am I on? The Truth. Is there another? -- Lanier, Bablyon5]

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:33 am 93. Anonymous:

Sorry Dave, but BOTH parents must be US citizens if the child is born outside of the country. If born inside the US, all bets are off… see “Anchor Babies.”

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:34 am 94. Robert Hurley:

The Wizard:

You are not the Wizard of Oz by any chance?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:38 am 95. cfb:

Let’s remember something, shall we?

The REPUBLICAN President, responsible for preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution, isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN Presidential Candidate isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

None of the REPUBLICAN Presidential nomination candidates is challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN Governor of Hawaii isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN Governors of Vermont, Connecticut, California, Florida, Minnesota and Indiana, all of which Obama won, aren’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN House and Senate members, who have the right to challenge the reporting of Electoral Votes in the Congress, aren’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

The REPUBLICAN leaning talk show leaders: (Limbaugh, Hannity et al) aren’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

FOX NEWS isn’t challenging Obama’s citizenship

How is it all of these opponents of Barack Obama are unable or unwilling to do what’s RIGHT? Is it perhaps because they’ve figured out that this claim is WRONG?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:42 am 96. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rick Moran, et al.
RE: Indeed

Photographs of a birth certificate are not a birth certificate. — Preposteroso

Especially when they lack such things as:

[1] Name of attending physician.
[2] Signature of same.
[3] Name of hospital or address of delivery location.
[4] Seal of a notary public or other government appointed offical
[5] Signature of such offical.

I could provide a document similar in nature to the one proffered by the Obama campaign that would prove that Arnold the Governator was born in Washington DC.

But I’d omit the word “LASER” on the worthless piece of paper, that the Obama campaign failed to cover up on their ‘document’.

Or did we have ‘laser’ printers in 1961 and I was completely unaware? Maybe the people at MIB had such back then. And THAT would make Obama even more ‘alien’ than I originally thought.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Have we elected an illegal alien as the future President of the United States?]

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:43 am 97. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Robert Hurley
RE: The Wizard

You are not the Wizard of Oz by any chance? — Robert Hurley

Whatever he/she/it is, they’re certainly more intelligent than you, as they can at least keep on-topic instead of going for sophomoronic ad homs.

Or is it that you’re part of some perverse ‘Judy Garland’ fan club? Looking for a wise old man, are you?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ad homs, a game anyone can play. The chief difference being the intelligence behind the game-play.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:47 am 98. Hess:

It is apparent that we need a state motor vehicle dept to confirm eligibility for POTUS since no one else appears capable or willing to do so.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:49 am 99. James:

Right…

It’s not derangement to insist that the Obamanation show that he’s a natural born US citizen, which he has manifestly not done – and which he refuses to do.

What’s deranged is trashing our Constitutional republic.

James

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:53 am 100. August:

Rick: “Hey! Tin foil hatters!”

Oh, hee, hee. However, such clumsy ad hominem attacks merely muddy the waters of what should be a very simple issue: Obama is either constitutionally elegible to be president or he is not. Everything else is crap. If it would benefit Obama to release his official birth certificate (or his college transcripts, for that matter), he would have done so long ago. I’m having trouble thinking of any other reason to hide such a benign document.

One need not have headwear by Reynolds Wrap to think this whole thing stinks to high heaven.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:02 am 101. omad:

13. Dave wrote:
FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.
WRONG !!!! Here is the law:

Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock:
A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) INA provided the citizen parent was physically present in the U.S. for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen is required. [For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.]

She did not live in the US for 5 years after the age of 14 before he was born. If he was born overseas, not only would he not have “natural born” citizenship, he would not have US citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:05 am 102. Brian Richard Allen:

Dear Jeff Weimer

I am an American and — having been born outside my America and of foreign born parents — am an immigrant American.

I am, therefore, precedent insists, entitled to special Hyphenated-American Status!

I have exercised that right, have declared myself an AMERICAN-American. And, therefore, (this being, after all, the land of we free and brave) am an AMERICAN-American.

But despite my official AMERICAN-American Status, sad to say, my not being a natural born American is forever a bar to my being elected to office.

The Authority, by the way, that forever bars me from the office of President of the United States is not to be found in Cornell Law’s nor any other school’s “interpretation” of “case law” — but in Article II of the United States Constitution, To Whit:

“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty-five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

Mr Zero, (AKA “NMFingP!”) having put himself on the public record as neither respecting nor believing in the United States Constitution and as recently as this week having ignored it in his nomination of the recidivist, lying, looting, thieving, mass-murdering, co-serial rapist DC Bar failure junior senator from Illinois … um Arkansas … um New York to be secretary of state, might also, was he an actual American and not the alien his grandmother and others insists him to be — and that a considerable body of other evidence, including of his having been both and Indonesian citizen/national and passport holder, supports — have difficulty with the oath or affirmation of office, to whit:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Or he could produce his original birth certificate.

Insofar as this matter is concerned, Mr Zero’s lying and his evasions permit the very reasonable inference he does not meet the Constitutional standard.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm?

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:08 am 103. dirtyrottenvarmint:

Rick,

You might want to do a little more research.

The petition that the Court is discussing does not assert that Obama is not a U.S. citizen born in Hawaii. The petition asserts that Obama was born the son of a British subject, and under British law was thus himself a British subject at the time of his birth, _as well as a U.S. citizen but not a “natural born” citizen_. The question the Court may discuss, if it so decides, is whether the U.S. Constitution would allow, e.g., Vladimir Putin’s son to become President, were such a son born in the United States to a woman who is a U.S. citizen. This issue has nothing to do with Obama per se; the defendant in the lawsuit is neither Obama nor the DNC. This is a question of how to interpret the “natural born” clause in Article 2 of the Constitution.

One further note. A newspaper is not a legal document. But, again, Obama’s status as a U.S. citizen born in Hawaii is not at issue in the petition before the Court.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:11 am 104. susan:

Robert Hurley, I guess you are without a woman. That explains a lot.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:12 am 105. Robert Hurley:

Chuck:

OK lets make a bet. I say this case has no merit and will never by won by the nuts. Say a small donation to the charity of your choice. If I win you you make a donation to a charity of your choice

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:12 am 106. Thinking Person:

Could this not all be solved by just publishing the birth certificate? Sure, “officials” have seen it and attested to it’s authenticity but just publish the damned thing and get it over with! We get to see their tax records and their health records….why not just pull out the birth certificate? Personally I believe it’s legitimate (although I wish it weren’t) but Obama himself is causing this by all of the withholding and lawyering up. If it’s legit, prove the hysterical conspiracy theorists wrong!

Lastly…..I don’t know about anyone else but I’m tiring of the “tin foil hat” bs. I don’t care if you’ve tattooed biblican verses on your forehead or do abortions in your garage under goat horns….as Americans we have a RIGHT to have an opinion and question our elected officials. So quit thinking that you can elevate your comment by throwing out the tin foil hat crap and my favorite…the racist comment. It just weakens your own argument to the level of sniveling.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:16 am 107. Terry Gain:

@95 cfb

As to your “The Republicans aren’t etc”

You want us to draw inferences. We want the best evidence. Our logic is superior to yours.

Obama: Produce the COLB.

Obamatrons and weak-kneed Repubs: Stop telling us to STFU and instead tell Obama to produce the COLB.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:17 am 108. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Robert Hurley
RE: Why Bet?

OK lets make a bet. I say this case has no merit and will never by won by the nuts. — Robert Hurley

The important thing is whether or not he is a natural-born citizen of the United States. Isn’t that the whole point?

If he is, I’m satisfied that the Law of the Land has been obliged.

But if he is NOT….then there is a serious problem.

The proof would be a bona fide and not counterfeit birth certificate. Wouldn’t it?

So why all the obfuscation and ad homs on yours, cedarford’s and Rick’s part?

Why not just simply call for the documentation that would prove the matter?

Or are you afraid of something? Something about you ASSUME he is a natural-born citizen?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[When you ASSUME something, you make an ASS out of U and ME.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:22 am 109. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Failure to provide such proof is an indication that he is NOT a natural-born citizen.

I do believe that is the way the rules regarding evidence work….

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:26 am 110. misanthropicus:

TO: all Soeterotrolls

“Court to weigh question about Obama citizenship”/ Washington Times/Tom Ramstack/Friday, December 5, 2008

Buzz up!The Supreme Court plans to meet Friday to decide whether to hear a case that could determine whether President-elect Barack Obama ever becomes the nation’s president.
Justice Clarence Thomas picked up the petition to hear New Jersey attorney Leo Donofrio’s lawsuit after it was denied by Justice David H. Souter. Justice Thomas referred it to the full court, which decided to distribute the case for the judges’ conference.
The decision to put the case on Friday’s docket resulted from more than a dozen lawsuits challenging Mr. Obama’s right to be president based on his citizenship at birth. The issue preoccupied many conservative bloggers in the weeks before the Nov. 4 election [who believe that] President-elect Barack Obama was born under the jurisdiction of a foreign power, Britain, and is therefore ineligible to serve as president of the United States, according to a lawsuit that has reached the Supreme Court. [...]

Nevertheless, for the lawsuit even to make it to the docket raises the possibility of an unprecedented case going before the Supreme Court . At least four of the court’s nine judges must approve before the case is heard.
Mr. Donofrio originally sued New Jersey Secretary of State Nina Mitchell Wells, seeking a court order to stop the Nov. 4 presidential election. When that was denied, he amended his complaint to stop the Electoral College from certifying Mr. Obama as the winning candidate when it meets Dec. 15.
Unlike many of the lawsuits regarding Mr. Obama’s citizenship – which claim he was born on foreign soil – Mr. Donofrio’s case concedes that Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii as he claims. Mr. Donofrio contends, however, that Mr. Obama is not a “natural born citizen,” as Article II, Section I of the U.S. Constitution requires.
“Don´t be distracted by the birth certificate and Indonesia issues,” Mr. Donofrio said in a statement on the Citizen Wells Web site. “They are irrelevant to Senator Obama´s ineligibility to be president.

“Since Barack Obama´s father was a citizen of Kenya, and therefore subject to the jurisdiction of the United Kingdom at the time of Senator Obama´s birth, then Senator Obama was a British citizen ‘at birth,’ just like the framers of the Constitution, and therefore, even if he were to produce an original birth certificate proving he were born on U.S. soil, he still wouldn´t be eligible to be president.”

—-*—-

Next: the Choir of the Soeterotrolls

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:28 am 111. Peter the Sub Guy:

98. Hess wrote:
It is apparent that we need a state motor vehicle dept to confirm eligibility for POTUS since no one else appears capable or willing to do so.

Peter replies: Don’t use the one in NYS. They were considering allowing illegals to have NYS drivers licenses until the public found out and the outcry became too great.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:29 am 112. bobdog:

Obama and his minions are responsible for putting those pods in your basement, just waiting for you to go to sleep.

Then you’ll wake up, start mumbling incoherently about “change” and use the words “finally” and “get even” a lot, and then start prattling endlessly to others. The intention is to make you sleepy, and then they’ve GOT YOU!

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:30 am 113. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Thinking Person
RE: Considering….

Sure, “officials” have seen it and attested to it’s authenticity but just publish the damned thing and get it over with! — Thinking Person

…the technology available today—high-tech counterfeiting—it might be necessary to do some forensics on the offered document; paper, ink, age, etc.

I say this based on that STUPID counterfeit document offered some years ago by Dan Rather about Bush. Furthermore, I see Franken is asking for forensic evaluation of the ballots in the Minnesota senate race. So the Democrats can’t complain about our asking for the same in a matter much more important to the nation as a whole.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[You've got to be honest; if you can fake that, you've got it made. -- George Burns]

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:32 am 114. 888:

This is another unbalanced, irresponsible article by Moran.

Moran doesn’t mention that when McCain was asked by the liberal zealots to prove that he was a natural-born US citizen, McCain immediately provided his birth certificate which confirmed that although he was born overseas, it was because his American father (a Navy officer)was stationed overseas at the time.

Moran failed to mention that Obama’s lawyers worked feverishly to get Atty Berg’s lawsuit dismissed.

Moran failed to mention that Obama’s own Kenyan grandmother has stated that she and other relatives witnessed Obama’s birth in a Kenyan hospital.

Moran failed to mention that only one of Obama’s relatives from his mother’s side has come forward to state that he was born in Hawaii. This relative is his sister who named a hospital different from the one Obama said he was born in.

Bottom line: there are a lot of holes in Obama’s story. He could have easily ended this controversy months ago by simply showing the Certificate of Live Birth. Instead, he had to enlist the help of powerful DNC lawyers to do everything they can to stall and delay the federal court process. He ‘won’ the Berg suit only because the judge ruled Berg had no standing, rather than because Obama proved without a doubt that he was, indeed, a natural-born US citizen. Also, Harvard and Columbia continue to aid and abet in this strange cover-up of Obama’s past by hiding pertinent documents, such as his transcripts and health records. And, unfortunately, Obama will beat this latest inquiry and series of lawsuits because he and his supporters (including Moran, the Arianna Huffington of PJM) will continue to cover up for him and ridicule anyone questioning Obama’s mysterious history.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:40 am 115. Nuqueen1:

The more I read the more I am convinced the rabid RWingers are completely deranged.
Obama was born in Honolulu. That alone makes him a “natural Born” citizen.
His mom did not travel to Africa two months before giving birth. Why would she do that?
The birth announcement in the paper came from HOSPITAL records.
On the Indonesian school records showing “Barry Soetero” his birthplace is conspicuously shown as Honolulu, Hawaii.
The relative in Africa stated he was born in the USA (RRWgers always leave this part out)

The Dems won. THe GOP lost. Get over it and concentrate on the real problems facing this nation.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:40 am 116. Mike T:

But to prove Hofstadter’s point that the paranoid style is not limited to one side of the ideological spectrum, there is a movement being advanced by otherwise normal and rational people on the right to nullify the election last month using as a basis the preposterous notion that President-elect Barack Obama is not eligible for office because he was not born in the United States.

I’m perfectly willing to concede that Obama is a citizen, despite the issues raised about his background. All he has to do is come out and answer his critics. As politicians are fond of saying, if he has nothing to hide, he has nothing to fear. It shouldn’t take more than a few days of requesting and collecting records for him to throw this controversy onto the trash heap of American political history once and for all if his side is as straight-forward as you claim, Moran.

There’s a good reason why we shouldn’t allow any remotely legitimate doubts about the President Elect’s legitimacy when possible: he commands one of the most powerful positions in the history of politics and represents us before the world.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:41 am 117. Thinking Person:

Chuck….I agree and would like to amend my comment from “just publish the damned thing” to “just produce for analysis the damned thing”.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:41 am 118. Michael Pelletier:

=== “Dave” wrote:
FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.

FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.
=====

Those assertions are factually incorrect.

At the time Obama was born, the child of a US citizen and a non-citizen (Obama) was only considered a citizen if either born in the US, or if the US citizen parent had lived at least five years in the US after the age of 16. Since his mother was only 18, she could not in any way meet that criterion.

And Obama’s own paternal grandmother says he was born in Kenya.

So if he was, in fact, born in Kenya, he did not automatically gain US citizenship upon birth.

The simple answer to this question is to disclose the original birth certificate, but instead he had it put under seal. What’s up with that?

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:44 am 119. Robert:

What a big lie. The Governor nor the Health Dept officals never said that Obama’s original birth certificate said he was born in Hawaii, just stated that it was authentic. So why does he not just produce it at a new conference, or does Obama feel he is above the Constitution????????

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:46 am 120. Brian Richard Allen:

cfb: What “Republican” president? What “Republican” candidate for president?

Surely you’re not asking us to afford Republican status to either the current oligarchy-serving incumbent? Who, after being elected rapidly morphed into a “liberal,” and, just for starters, stupendously increased the feral gummint’s size and spending and debt, trashed the United States Constitution and Bill of Rights, ignored the ongoing criminal alien invasion and hostile colonization of our beloved fraternal republic — and who rehabilitated the recidivist, treasonous, lying, looting, thieving, mass-murdering, co-serial-rapist Cli’tons? And who leaves town having dealt the death blow to America’s financial and monetary exceptionalism, having seamlessly integrated our financial system into the Eurabian Neo-Soviet’s — and having put congress’s fascists and crypto-fascists in charge of the illegal, unlawful and un-Constitutional disbursement of, so far, more than Seven Trillion as yet neither created nor yet legally appropriated American Dollars! Surely not that “Republican?”

Nor yet, one prays and trusts, do you ask that we afford such status to the much-despised one-time North Vietnam and Soviet Union Military Intelligence Adviser and life-time RINO, Mr John “Reach Across the Aisle” (well, reach, anyway) Sidney McRainman?

Who as, sadly, does Mr Bush, bears witness to the fact that as in Shakespeare’s day there were no female actors and girly-boys played the females, these days there are no Republicans.

Nope. Sad to say.

The “Democrats’” very ‘toughest’ girly-boys play every “Republican” part.

The REPUBLICANS are here, now. And WE are asking the questions.

Got any answers?

Cat got your tongue?

And Zero’s too.

And the tongues, when it comes to straight answers, of every last one of poor pathetic Zero’s Hundreds of Billion Dollars worth of (mainly) foreign and (some) domestic puppeteers.

Brian Richard Allen
Los Angeles – CalifUBAMAcated 90028

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:49 am 121. Thinking Person:

Nuqueen1…..Easy enough to solve. Just have Obama tell his lawyers…..”Let them have my original birth certificate to prove I’m right! That’ll shut them up!” Why let this go all the way to the Supreme Court? Why not just produce it? Odd don’t you think? We’re supposed to listen to “officials” and ancient newspaper announcements and take that as proof. They won’t even take that as proof when I enroll my kids in public school! I think it’s legit unfortunately but I’m starting to think the crazies calling for all of this might not be so crazy after all. Obama, I’m afraid, is brining this on himself right now. Just provide the actual certificate and it’s done. Right?

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:54 am 122. James:

Joshua:

Re: Elephant in room

If I’m reading your post right, then you’re position is that the law, in fact, doesn’t matter. You’re saying even if the law says a man is not eligible to be president he should be sworn in anyway because he won an election? Let me ask this then. If that law doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be followed, what other laws should we just ignore?

Down that road lies anarchy.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:59 am 123. cfbleachers:

100 posts and really nobody has touched on how I would view the entirety of the subject.

This is a matter of curiosity for me, not much more. However, equating it with the 8 years of Bush derangement, Haliburton, blood for oil, Jews/Bush plotted the 9/11 attack…vs. asking for the original birth certificate, is not a compelling parallel or equivalency argument, Rick, my friend.

Oliver Stone has made a living (as has Michael Moore on a different level of depravity) of taking certain “facts” and then attempting to piece together or cobble together some “conclusions”.

It’s apparently a fun game in some quarters. Hell, Al Gore has done it with global warming to an extent. (after he invented the internet, which you hurt his feelings by not embracing right away…not sure about your embrace of his other conclusions, and inconvenient truths, though)

You see, Rick…in the absence of facts, evidence or in the void created by withholding of documentation, people tend to substitute their own brand of deductive logic and implant THEIR facts and cobble together an argument.

Even you. Heck, we all do it. You have substituted in the facts that assist you in arriving at the conclusion that makes you comfortable. It would be INSANE to think otherwise, right? I may agree with your conclusion, but not how you arrive at it. I may think your “substitute” facts or the ones that you use to cobble together your “conclusions”, are not strong enough or persuasive enough.

We are STILL bouncing around ideas about the JFK assassination and that happened decades ago. President-elect Obama’s win, is merely days old.

So, if Michael Moore and Oliver Stone and the whole blood for oil, Haliburton, Mossad/Bush plotted 9-11 crowd can have their fun, why be a killjoy? Let’s ask some Oliver Stone/Michael Moore type questions:

1)Did the paternal grandmother and/or others state that they witnessed the live birth in Kenya or did they not? If they did not and there is no such quote, we can move on to other things. If they did, why would they do such a thing? Are they conspiring to keep him from being President?

Perhaps it is a faulty memory, perhaps it is self-aggrandizement on a much larger scale. But it IS an oddity that they would announce such a thing and it carries SOME weight from an evidentiary standpoint, does it not?

2)Had a REPUBLICAN been running for office, which OTHER documents would have been researched, hunted down, uncovered, “exposed” long ago? Hell, Joe the Plumber wasn’t running for even a union steward position and HIS entire life was exposed in 15 minutes after he ASKED A QUESTION. The man running for President chose to blockade virtually every record of his schooling, wherein he may have applied for scholarships, grants in aid, internships, and the like…which may…or may not…have provided evidentiary clues into what HE believed was his right as a citizen or a foreigner.

There may be dozens of other reasons for not releasing those records, but would Oliver Stone or Michael Moore accept them?

3)The original birth “circumstances” are a bit murky as I understand it. Where are the hospital records. Which hospital are we talking about? Clearly, if the hospital records exist, we should be able to obtain them. Was it a difficult pregnancy? Who was the attending physician? I have not paid close attention to this entire mess, but I believe someplace there was a reference to two separate hospitals. I don’t know about this element, but is it worth further investigation at a minimum? Would Oliver Stone or Michael Moore leave it untouched?

4)How old was his mother? I read someplace that she was not yet 18, therefore…something or other. What is the PRECISE law related to a mother having given birth outside of the country and age? If she wished little Barry to be a US citizen and his father wished for little Jr. to be a citizen of Kenya…why not have the child in Kenya and bring him back to the US and file papers related to the birth?

There doesn’t have to be a nefarious reason, only one of pride in nationality that could explain WHY they wanted to try to “create” dual citizenship. Only, the vagaries of the law made them take a couple of missteps or shortcuts and not do it precisely according to their intent. This removes their mens rea for “conspiracy” before the fact. They innocently wished to create for him a tie to his roots on both ends.

The extended family found a way to send him to private school, this is a family that would have coughed up plane fare.

5)Rick…your argument that some government flunky said “I’ve looked at it, let’s move on”, is really rather ridiculous in terms of persuasion. This all may be JFK/Oliver Stone/Michael Moore/Al Gore inconvenient truthers fun and giggles…but THAT argument is patently absurd, even though I am one of your defenders and have often come to your side when you submit a controversial piece.

A government official from Chicago says that there is no graft or corruption, let’s move on…do you take that at face value?

Bill Clinton says “I did not have sexual relations with that woman”, do you take that at face value and move on?

Look, this may all be mental gymnastics and a JFK conspiracy “magic bullet”, wild goose chase…but THAT argument is about as weak as you can get.

6)As for the argument that the SCOTUS will NOT turn around the “will of the people”, I actually hope this turns out to be the nonsense that many believe it is. Let’s move on and get on with more important things once we find out the truth, once and for all.

But, the “will” of the people is a funny thing. How may folks “in the middle” who were on the fence…would have voted for Senator Obama had they believed this issue had legs? Enough to tip the scales?

I don’t know. Nobody knows. I don’t buy the argument that the “will” of the people would be the same necessarily. I hope I never find out.

To summarize, I think this is nothing more than a JFK conspiracy parlor game. It is not “derangement” any more than those other parlor games are “derangement”. Certainly not on the level of the last 8 years. But this issue does raise the spectre of how someone can run for an office of this magnitude with so many pieces of their resume’ blockaded behind vault doors. Now THAT’S an issue worth exploring. Oliver? Michael? Al? Any takers?

Didn’t think so.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:05 am 124. Chuck Pelto:

TO: cfb
RE: So….

How is it all of these opponents of Barack Obama are unable or unwilling to do what’s RIGHT? — cfb

….just because no one else you cite is asking the tough questions of Obama, we’re all supposed to be ’silent’?

What part of the Constitution of the United States requires that? Or is it something The One wants to implement and you’re just over-eager.

On the other foot…

…I don’t recall all those Democrat governors demanding where the WMDs in Iraq went. So why did the Dimocrats demand it?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ya gotta love those 'hypocrites'.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:10 am 125. Chris in Toronto:

A couple of things:
(1) Please, everyone, stop calling each other names. Respect gets respect. Name calling shows no respect and, while fun as hell, does nothing for your argument.
(2) Anybody remember the American Thinker article about Cloward-Piven?
Link: http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/09/barack_obama_and_the_strategy.html

Here’s a quote: “The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The “Cloward-Piven Strategy” seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.”

I just ask everybody to please think about it!

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:16 am 126. Rotwang:

Chuck Pelto — PLEASE tell me you’re not seriously questioning the presence” of the word “laser” on a laser-printed COLB that no one has ever represented as anything BUT a laser-printed COLB generated, I believe, sometime post-2000?

You’re not going to win the Buckhead Award with that one.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:21 am 127. Fred:

“Oh, please. The level of talk about Obama is absolutely nothing to the garbage that has been spewing 24/7 for the last 8 years about Chimpy McHitlerBurton and Darth Cheney.”

really? I sure don’t recall anyone claiming that Bush was not a legitimate American – no one demanded HIS birth certificate. no one tried to UNDO the election – in fact, it was the Supreme Court that STOPPED the vote counting in Florida…Yes – the left was angry about that election – and yes – Bush was savaged by the left – but BECAUSE of his policies and his INABLILITY to articulate an intelligent sentence – not becuase of LIES about his religion, his up bringing or his nationality…

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:23 am 128. Fred:

James says:

“Re: Elephant in room

If I’m reading your post right, then you’re position is that the law, in fact, doesn’t matter. You’re saying even if the law says a man is not eligible to be president he should be sworn in anyway because he won an election? Let me ask this then. If that law doesn’t matter and shouldn’t be followed, what other laws should we just ignore?

Down that road lies anarchy.”

What nonsense – Obama has claimed he’s an American. The only Anarchy is coming from the LOSERS who are sifting through every arcane piece of immigration law to try to discredit this man. And what LAW are YOU referring to? There is no LAW that Obama need produce any official document to please his opponents – this is made up out of whole cloth. To suggest that our founders would want to see an election over turned because POLITICAL OPERATIVES and OPPONENTS are looking for trouble is insane. It would be one thing if Obama came to America as an adult and hid that information – it’s quite another trying to determine if Obama’s mother was in the country long enough when he was born based on laws at that time – or if his American Mother or his being born in America is NOT enough to make him American enough for his opponents or if Kenya was actually british in 1961 or if it was African or if…

this is not Anarchy – this is the losers trying to overturn an election…

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:30 am 129. Robert Hurley:

Chuck:

No guts to bet or you don’t really beleive this nonsense enough to lay down a bet

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:33 am 130. Jeff Weimer:

CTN:

First line at the cornell website:

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:
(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

Here’s the link to determine NATIONALS but not citizens:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001408—-000-.html

So it’s pretty solid that Obama was a citizen at birth – Hawaii was a state in 1961. This applies despite having a non-citizen father.

Rebuttal to Brian Richard Allen:

Yes, the requirements are listed in the constitution, but the definition of “Natural Born Citizen” as applied is in these statutes.

As for his possible dual-citizenship, the law is silent so it would not forbid him from serving as President. He still is a citizen of the US even if he is also a citizen of another country. He would lose his US citizenship under the circumstances listed below:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001481—-000-.html

Notice it pays attention to a person being 18. Obama was back in the states before that time. He had no opportunity to renounce his citizenship before that, if that is what you are alluding to with his Indonesian passport. There is also no record that he formally renounced his US citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:34 am 131. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Fred
RE: Claims

Obama has claimed he’s an American — Fred

Yeah.

And Dan Rather ‘claimed’ he had a disparaging letter from President Bush’s Air National Guard commander.

What’s your point? That you can trust a politican at their word? How dumb are you anyway?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[My favorite mythical creature? The honest politician.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:37 am 132. cfbleachers:

Just so everyone knows…I am not cfb.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:38 am 133. misanthropicus:

TO: all Soeterotrolls

I am glad that I can inform you that regardless the outcome of today’s Supreme Court conference concerning mister Soetero’s status, the battering ram’s momentum keeps increasing.
About one hour ago even the CNN ticker/video discussed this, previously taboo matter (dissmissivly and unclearly), and their kicking in nothing but removes this serious issue from the previous obscurity to daylight legitimacy as issue.
Also, we can view their take as the future direction on which the Obamatrolls and the liberals will try to railroad/deflect the discussion – relax, the man was elected, so now it doesn’t matter whether he was or not eligible (line of thought showing much concern for constitution, isn’t it?)
Anyway, good news for the country, bad news for Obamatrolls -

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:44 am 134. Chris in Toronto:

#132 cfbleachers:
I knew!

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:47 am 135. Commonsense:

Let me know when Obama breaks his first 100 laws, then we’ll talk. Until then ODS and BDS are two completely different animals (in the sense that BDS is grounded in reality)….

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:47 am 136. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rotwang
RE: The Laser Certificate

PLEASE tell me you’re not seriously questioning the presence” of the word “laser” on a laser-printed COLB that no one has ever represented as anything BUT a laser-printed COLB… — Rotwang

You REALLY should do more research before making statements like that.

Here’s the Obama Campaign Official Site about the document proffered as Obama’s Birth Certificate.

It says on it above the document image….”Barack Obama’s Official Birth Certificate”. So, you see, you are mistaken when you say that the document I’m seeing has never been presented as anything other than a Certificate of Live Birth. They called it his “Official Birth Certificate”.

Maybe you should contact them to make a correction.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Do not fear mistakes. You will know failure. Continue to reach out. -- Benjamin Franklin]

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:48 am 137. susan:

Laugh award of this post goes to

FRED

“really? I sure don’t recall anyone claiming that Bush was not a legitimate American”

LOL, could it be because his mother didn’t s***w around with exotic partners worldwide?

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:50 am 138. Jeff Weimer:

In my opinion, all the calls from my fellow ‘wingers for him to produce his birth certificate is equal to Andrew Sullivan’s trig-trutherism. It’s just as small-minded and petty. If you have an allegation, support it with proof, don’t demand proof from the object of your allegation and then point to their ignorance to you as that “proof” your allegation is true.

Why do we want to believe the oft-repeated claim that some grandmother said he was born in Kenya? Where is the original source? Do we have her on tape? If not, does the reporter have credibility? Does it actually exist, or is it just an urban legend? Why do we believe that over the “certificate of live birth” issued earlier this year? True it is not the *actual* honest to god birth certificate, but it couldn’t be issued without the existence of a “vault” certificate.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:50 am 139. Tex Taylor:

I didn’t read thru this, and personally mostly agree with the author about this silly pursuit. But I do have one question, if somebody could tell me for sure, that does bother me.

Obama and I are approximately the same age, with me being a few months older. I had to register for selective service. I have heard that Obama did not register. Is that is true, why wasn’t Obama required to register like the rest of us? I guarantee you for a man that is Obama’s age, it would have been required.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:51 am 140. tim maguire:

On my, where to begin with this silly article?

I agree with the Moran that this is ALMOST certainly a false issue, but he does our side no favors with half-baked arguments that he thinks he can turn into conclusive proof by adding excalamation points. A newpaper announcement? Does Moran even know what “evidence” means? There isn’t a court in the country that would even admit it into evidence, let alone find it pursuasive. What motivation could the parents have? How about proudly announcing to their community the birth of their son? Jesus, if you think this is evidence on a constitutional level, you really should turn your computer off again.

The bottom line here is that the constitution has three requirements for the president, of which getting a majority of electoral votes is only one. Unfortunately, there is no mechanism for satisfying the other two. But no sane person could deny that there should be and I think the supreme court is the perfect place for this to play out.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:54 am 141. robotech master:

Cedarford again with the massive lies and smoke and mirrors…. George Romney never ran for President…. he ran for the Republican nomination… Just as Lowell Weicker did the same…. Add in last time I checked the Constitution didn’t forbid ppl from running in party nomination… and even further it doesn’t prevent anyone from running at all… The Democrats could run their dream ticket of hitler and stalin, and WIN and it would be completely legal as far as I know and the Constitution states…. The Constitution states that they can’t be President not that they can’t run in a party or even a general election… So once again strawman complete and simple.

9/11 truthers like you and moron need to sit downy… like every truther be it 9/11 or gitmo or global warming or obama birth cert…. theirs a huge pile of scientific evidence that disproves your claims and yet you not only refuse to accept the fact that you wrong but you put up fake science, models, and history. Use smoke and mirror to avoid the truth and call everyone crazy because they don’t share your twisted views.

To Rick Moron.

Its nice to see you quickly change to more Dem talking points… of course had you bother to read the comments or done any research into this matter you would have known better… you were debunked before you even posted comment number 41(try reading say comment 15 or any comments for that matter)… in fact your little talking points provides more proof that obama is instead NOT A US CITIZEN… and I QUOTE “Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid.” Note has it doesn’t say he a US CITIZEN but only that he has a valid birth cert…. foreigners have valid birth certs as well….

I find it funny how not a single post made by any of the obama truthers have any facts or counters to any arguments presented in comments 15-18… just alot of name calling and in typical truther fashion no facts expect of course the “WERE TELLING YOU HES A CITIZEN AND THATS GOOD ENOUGH.”(or 9/11 was bush’s fault or global warming is man made etc, etc, etc)

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:00 am 142. Jeff Weimer:

Chuck:

And those who disputed it provided enough evidence to warrant an investigation, which ultimately led to Rather and Mapes leaving CBS in disgrace (see http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com). There is no evidence here to warrant any investigation, there’s enough to disprove the allegations at the start.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:00 am 143. Ben Florsheim:

Re: Legal Lie

The link to the U.S. citizenship statute above is a deliberate LIE – of course swaddled in comforting assurances that this is “objective”, “from Cornell” etc.

It is a lie because this is NOT the versuib if the law that was in force AT THE TIME (in 1961) when Obama was born.

Under the earlier version of the law in force in 1961, a child born outside the U.S. to ONE U.S. parent (married to a non-U.S. citizen) ONLY acquired citizenship at birth if the U.S. parent had lived in the U.S. for 5 years after reaching 14. Obama’s mother was 18 at the time of his birth – you do the math.

The 5 year rule does NOT apply if the U.S. parent was single. This is why Obama’s campaign made Michelle suddenly “blurt out” during an interview that Obama’s mother was “very single” at the time of his birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:01 am 144. Peter the Sub Guy:

127. Fred wrote:
really? I sure don’t recall anyone claiming that Bush was not a legitimate American – no one demanded HIS birth certificate.

Peter responds: No one had to DEMAND his birth certificate. He provided it when he ran for the various offices he has held, not locked it up in a vault somewhere and hired three law firms to keep that vault from being opened.

Fred wrote:
no one tried to UNDO the election

Peter responds incredulously:
What?!? Are you KIDDING?!? Al Gore and his whole pack of blood-sucking lawyers tried to UNDO the 2000 election. ‘Lets count these Gore votes, but lets ignore those Bush votes. Let’s allow undocumented alien votes to count, but no way we’re letting absentee ballots from American servicemen and women overseas be looked at.’ Gore and his ilk tried to do everything in their power to overthrow the 2000 election and STILL lost!

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:06 am 145. Ben Florsheim:

Re: Legal Lie (CORRECTED)

The link to the U.S. citizenship statute above is a deliberate LIE – of course swaddled in comforting assurances that this is “objective”, “from Cornell” etc.

It is a lie because this is NOT the version of the law that was in force AT THE TIME (in 1961) when Obama was born.

Under the earlier version of the law in force in 1961, a child born outside the U.S. to ONE U.S. parent (married to a non-U.S. citizen) ONLY acquired citizenship at birth if the U.S. parent had lived in the U.S. for 5 years after reaching 14. Obama’s mother was 18 at the time of his birth – you do the math.

The 5 year rule does NOT apply if the U.S. parent was single. This is why Obama’s campaign made Michelle suddenly “blurt out” during an interview that Obama’s mother was “very single” at the time of his birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:06 am 146. Thinking Person:

Tex Taylor…..You really want to open up his not registering for the select service now? We can’t even get the left to want to see his original birth certificate! They probably have a gum wrapper somewhere with OBAMA printed on it in crayon as proof that YES he did register all of those years ago. Trust me Tex…you’re just setting yourself up for some tin foil hat comments. I have to agree with you though. Unfortunately there are fewer of us than there are of them.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:08 am 147. Peter the Sub Guy:

128. Fred wrote:
And what LAW are YOU referring to? There is no LAW that Obama need produce any official document to please his opponents – this is made up out of whole cloth.

Peter responds: I believe the law he was referring to is called the CONSTITUTION of the United States! You know, the one that says to be President a person must be a ‘natural born citizen of the United States.’ The law Obama has yet to prove to a great many people that he is in obeyance with.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:09 am 148. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I read a theory from someone that makes sense to me. Obama, Axelrod and the others aren’t producing the BC intentionally although they know it’s authentic and he is eligible to be President. The reasons for this are:

1) It deflects attention away from other more serious issues about Obama including how he got $750 million in campaign donations, how board members at ACORD are accusing people of extortion and how Obama’s previous law firm is going after the people making the accusations, how we have a President who refuses to show us his complete medical records or senate records, how he won’t let us talk to any woman he was involved with prior to Michelle or anyone who knew him in college, how the cousin of Saddam wired Rezko money for the empty lot next to his house. These are all much more important that the BC but Obama and Axelrod know that if they refuse to provide the BC we will spend the next four years focusing on the BC instead of all the other issues.

2) Right before the next election Obama and Axelrod will produce the original BC, the name of the hospital and the doctor so that everyone will think Obama has been a victim because everyone unfairly assumed he was lying.

I think Obama and Axelrod are both people with really serious issues and I’m saying that as a Democrat – I believe they enjoy these games and they’re doing it on purpose.

“Look at how the stupid Americans waste time on this. They don’t deserve respect so let’s keep playing these games with them.”

They need to be told to either provide the BC immediately and put an end to speculation so they can’t continue this for another four years.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:10 am 149. robotech master:

To 29. 24AheadDotCom:

For the love of god man step of and claim some ownage….

http://24ahead.com/blog/archives/008184.html

Proof beyond any doubt that obama could have been born in kenya and still have a US birth cert… and one that is hard to tell if he was born in kenya….

http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

AND I QUOTE

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

Now I’d like to see the truthers counter that….

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:18 am 150. Jeff Weimer:

Ben Florshiem:

But he was born IN the United States, Hawaii having become a state in 1959…. Makes the rest of your argument moot.

Oh, and show me YOUR reference, I’d like to see it.

FWIW, I picked the Cornell reference not only because it came up near the top in Google, but it’s also a prominent law school, and I should think they have the proper statutes posted correctly.

Oh, and this law was passed in 1940, so it IS the law that applied in 1961. You can look below to see that, and see that the section you refer to has not been changed.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00000001—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:24 am 151. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Getting Thinks….

There is no evidence here to warrant any investigation, there’s enough to disprove the allegations at the start. — Jeff Weimer

…bass-ackward, Jeff.

The point here IS that ‘there is NO evidence’ that he is a natural-born citizen.

Or if there IS any such evidence, PLEASE provide it. In the form of a bona fide, signed and sealed Birth Certificate. Not this tripe offered in the link I offered at item #136 (above).

And, based on what I just read at item #150 from robotech master, that business about how Certificates of Live Birth are generated in Hawaii is pretty damning to the item offered by the link at item #136.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:35 am 152. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Excellent Research….

….that, about the Hawaiian Statute relating to the issuance of a Certificate of Live Birth.

Do they have a similar statute describing WHAT all is supposed to be on an official Birth Certificate and under what circumstances such is to be issued?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....But some people are not going to like it.....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:40 am 153. Ian Thorpe:

It is not unreasonable to ask a man who says in his autobiography that he was born a British Colonial Citizen (which if true would, I am told, disqualify him from becoming President) to provide proof that he is actually a “natrual born citizen.” That Mr Obama and his campaign managers have chosen the course of trying to hide behind legal technicalities rather than simply producing the document that would settle the issue can lead to only one conclusion.

If the issue is not settled however it will haunt his presidency. This is not a trivial issue such as boffing a night club singer or getting blow jobs off a rent boy (oops, pardon. Tgat one just slipped our Mr. Obama) but of a man who is a proven liar on many issues seeking to evade questions on a contitutionally vital issue.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:47 am 154. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Derangement, Indeed

I think I understand what’s going on in the heads of the likes of Rick Moran and a number of others here.

They’re projecting on US, who wish to know whether or not Obama is a natural-born citizen of the United States, the derangement they felt about Bush and Palin.

It’s really a shame that they have to accuse US of acting as they do by merely asking for a simple piece of official paper.

The longer the document is not produced, the more evidence that it doesn’t exist in the first place. And the more suspect any document produced will generate that it is a fraud.

It would have been SOOOOOooooo much simpler if it had been produced when first asked for. And I’m wondering if there is a gross loop-hole in the Federal Election Commission’s management of elections that allowed this travesty to occur in the first place.

Why wouldn’t the FEC require the person running for the office of the President of the United States submit a bona fide birth certificate?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The essence of Government is power; and power, lodged as it must be in human hands, will ever be liable to abuse. -- James Madison]

P.S. Or in this instance, possibly idiocy…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:49 am 155. Peter the Sub Guy:

A little OT:

Just wanted to say Hi, Chuck. Been a while since our postings have crossed on the same thread.

~Peter

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:52 am 156. robotech master:

Thats all to 24AheadDotCom

I knew some kind of law like that existed however I could never find it… If he did or whoever did it likely likely weeks of eye bleeding, paper pushing torture to find that law…

To sum it up basically obama could have been born on the moon and hawaii would still give him a birth cert…

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:55 am 157. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: How Odd

I went to the Hawaiian Revised Statutes page and searched on the term “Birth Certificate”.

But for some strange reason, of all the items that came up—41 if them—none of them I clicked on to read are ‘found’. Every one of them I clicked on are getting a 404 error.

Maybe they’re just overwhelmed with requests for the state statute regarding such at this time. But then I would think the error code would be something other than “404 – The page cannot be found”, suggesting that the page has been ‘moved’ or is ‘temporarily not available’.

Definitely ‘different’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Anybody know someone who works in a Hawaiian hospital administration section and could tell the rest of US what the state statutes are for preparing a birth certificate?

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:57 am 158. Jim:

Annenberg Public Policy Center, the parent company of FactcCheck – isn’t this the same Annenberg organization that gave a multimillion dollar educational grant for urban schools in Chicago that was administered by Obama and Bill Ayers?

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:07 am 159. Tex Taylor:

Thinking Person,

I have to agree with you though. Unfortunately there are fewer of us than there are of them.

I don’t disagree with you about the tinfoil comments. I’m just leery of Republicans overplaying their hand again, providing ammunition to the loons.

It just seems since no one can get a handle on this U.S. citizenship and birth certificate, doing a little search of the selective service database would be an easy manner for someone to make determination for proof of citizenship.

If I’m not mistaken, Selective Service is an independent agency responsible for implementing a military draft, and as a U.S. Citizen being born in 1961, Obama would have been required to register in 1979.

I’m no attorney, thank God, but it seems the registration would be a matter of public record. If there is no record, then I would like our President Elect to explain why he was excused, while all the rest of us minions his age were required to stand in line at the post office.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:10 am 160. Nuqueen1:

Bottom line:
A BC has been produced, verified, and validated. Officials in Hawaii have vouched for PE Obama’s birth there.
As with anchor babies, all you have to do is be born here to be a natural born citizen. The RRWingers are in K/R’s first stage of grief-denial. Nothing will satify them, any attempt will be deemed a fraud. No hope for them.
They have mass Obama Derangement Syndrome infections.
No cure exists. Infected persons will self-destruct in 5-4-3-2…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:16 am 161. cfbleachers:

Chris in Toronto…thanks!

Some of the above arguments go to the “burden of proof”. The first burden, of course, belongs to the candidate running for office. Not his opponents. If he provides evidence of all of the fundamental requirements, and his opponents wish to challenge their validity, the burden shifts.

To put it in layman’s terms: The first burden of proof belongs to President-elect Obama. He MUST provide the elements necessary to qualify for the office. There is no legitimate way to circumvent this issue. The burden is his, not his opponents’ burden.

However, once he provides each element, and it is accepted, if his opponents wish to challenge it, they must bring forth evidence that the element should not stand. It is their burden to show that the element provided does not meet the standard for acceptance or has raised a material issue of invalidity.

As for a “legitimate” birth certificate…I’m now less interested in that (which can be manufactured) and I am more interested in whether Stanley Ann Durham and/or Barack Obama Sr. traveled to Kenya on or about the dates in question. Are there no records of air travel? Passport use? Hotel stays?

I am more interested in the myriad of applications, forms, documents that one submits throughout a lifetime in Jakarta, traveling to Pakistan or Indonesia, student loans, whereby place of birth, citizenship, travel status and the like may have been submitted for purposes of gaining more favorable treatment.

If there is a consistency of declaration of US citizenship, in instances where it would be disfavorable to do so, that would be SOME proof of acting in a manner consistent with US citizenship. (not COMPLETELY dispositive, of course…in our “JFK magic bullet” analogy…this could be in furtherance of ACTING as a US citizen, even though technically never perfecting the process)

If there is an INCONSISTENCY in declaring US citizenship, this would be SOME evidence of acting in a manner that tended to acknowledge the lack of perfecting the process. (although not dispositive of the issue, if someone wanted to “game the system” and use a foreign citizenship to gain more favorable treatment.

I suspect, (without knowing) that Columbia, Harvard, certain government officials, perhaps some enterprising entrenched media members…already know what might be contained within those documents that make them necessary to seal and hide from prying eyes.

What seems certain, is that nobody wants to win a Pulitzer by exposing anything damaging within them…and there is no Dan Rather, Green Helmet guy, Mary Mapes, Jamil Hussein, Jason Blair, …type “investigative reporting” taking place trying to track down the “public needs to know” hidden information.

The breathless and panting “fake but accurate” NEED to expose some obscure document related to some useless incident, related to some tangentially and superficially hyped up importance of air national guard service…was chased like a hound on the scent of a rabbit.

But for a CONSTITUTIONAL issue, related to fundamental qualification to even RUN for office…the same breathless, panting blue tick hounds seem quite satisfied to lounge on the carpet, snoring and occasionally rolling over waiting for their bellies to be scratched.

For my purposes, the real issue is the double standard. If the first set of facts (and even worse, the Joe the Plumber fact pattern) sets these dogs in motion, and the second one doesn’t…shines a light on the REAL conspiracy. The conspiracy of silence and double standards in the entrenched media.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:20 am 162. ew:

Agreeing with a lot of the other comments above.. this DOES seem like something really easy to prove that the leftist illuminati could do easily.. if they were able.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:22 am 163. cfbleachers:

One last thing. This “Annenberg” tie in every time another leftist gets caught with his hand in some cookie jar, as if it is a “get out of jail free” card…is simply a canard.

Walter Annenberg “connectivity” is not a free pass for every leftist misdeed. I really could give a rat’s red rear end that Annenberg had some close friendship with Ronald Reagan and now some organization that bears his name is “doing X” or “promoting Y” and THEREFORE….you can’t say that it is not advancing a cause that non-leftists can take issue with…BECAUSE…”Annenberg was a friend of Reagan”.

What utter nonsense.

Ronald Reagan Jr. had closer ties to Ronald Reagan than Annenberg and the son takes positions that his father would not. This “nexus” argument is frail and phony and needs to be gutted and disposed of with yesterday’s trash.

Walter Annenberg is NOT promoting any of these ideologies. He is not advocating them. And whatever they are, they stand or fall on their own merit. Framing the issue with the protective shell of Annenberg being friends with Reagan…is a canard. I call BS on it, here and now.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:27 am 164. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Tex Taylor
RE: The Draft

I’m no attorney, thank God, but it seems the registration would be a matter of public record. If there is no record, then I would like our President Elect to explain why he was excused, while all the rest of us minions his age were required to stand in line at the post office. — Tex Taylor

An interesting idea, that. However, if it doesn’t exist, don’t be surprised to get the same song-and-dance routine from Obama and the Obamabots that we’ve been getting over the Birth Certificate.

And then….would you begin to ’suspect’ that something is rotten in the state of Union?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. Three times is enemy action.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:27 am 165. robotech master:

To Tex taylor

Their has been some debate about obama’s selective service info you should be able to do a google search on it. However it is also up for debate somewhat… Some claim he filled out his info on time others claim he did it late… as far as I know the selective service database has neither confirmed or denied anything on the issue….

It would be nice to know however its not in the Constitution, so for now I’d just like the big issues dealt with after that if obama turns out to be a coward well thats later down the road.

To Jim

Factcheck is know for having very very good writers… but little in the way of facts. They mostly write op-ed pieces with some minor facts and try to confuse readers with writing style. The case in point of obama birth cert… they write a op-ed piece with some new pictures that “disprove” 1 or 2 of about 7 listed(and 50+ unlisted). They show pictures of this and try to claim that they are experts and thus in turn while they couldn’t disprove the other 5(to 50+) issues its good enough… Basically they took better pictures or upgraded from a 12 year old photoshopper to a 17 year old photoshopper…

The pictures were reviewed and it was found these picture(the new ones) also had issues/signs of photoshopping. Claim of fake is support by 10,000+ words detailing everything including tons of pictures… the factcheck op-ed is a few hundred words with 5 pictures….

This is how I look at it… factcheck’s “fact check” amounts to a middle schoolers op-ed piece… vs the claim of fact which is done in a scientific, detailed college professor/researcher manner. While it, the claim of fake could be wrong(and it could be because its based on pictures… since obama refuses to release the info/docs). It is 100x more believable then some piss ant op-ed piece by a bunch of middle schoolers…

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:39 am 166. Chris in Toronto:

Right on, cfbleachers! Right! On!

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:47 am 167. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Indicators

It would be nice to know however its not in the Constitution, so for now I’d just like the big issues dealt with after that if obama turns out to be a coward well thats later down the road. — robotech master

I would suggest that the draft records might be another ‘indicator’ of something. Perhaps even that he is not a citizen at all.

What did the Selective Service require in the way of documentation when you registered back then?

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:48 am 168. zanne:

Reports are $12.00 could of cleared this whole mystery up. But, he has spent a million to keep it sealed. Why? I also wonder if he didn’t use a foreign student declaration to get college aid money. I am an average taxpaying citizen and just want to unseal all of his records. What is he hiding from us? Why?

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:55 am 169. Marauder:

I have absolutely no opinion on whether Obama’s been truthful about his place of birth or not. I just think it’s a little weird that, given all the controversy, he hasn’t done something to prove beyond a doubt that he was born in Hawaii and not Kenya. If someone tells me I’m a liar and I have something to prove that they’re wrong and I’m telling the truth, I produce it immediately.

Maybe he was born in Hawaii. Okay, can he prove that to us at least so everyone can move on? The question of where he was born is crucial to whether he meets the qualifications to be President; it’s not exactly inconsequential.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:55 am 170. Tex Taylor:

robotech,

Thank you for the information.

It would be nice to know however its not in the Constitution, so for now I’d just like the big issues dealt with after that if obama turns out to be a coward well thats later down the road.

My bone of contention doesn’t even really address cowardice. I suspect Obama pragmatic enough that even if he is a draft dodging coward, like most politicians, he’d have no problem sending someone else to defend the country.

No, my concerns are (1) It’s the law; (2) the respective consequences of not registering.

And according to their website, two of those consequences are:

(A) CITIZENSHIP
The U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship, if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday and was required to register.

(B) FEDERAL JOBS
A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. This applies only to men born after December 31, 1959.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/wars/a/draft2.htm

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:56 am 171. B Dubya:

I don’t think the citizenship thing is going to go anywhere.
Remember, folks, Republicans tend to kill foreign enemies at wholesale rates, while Democrats kill US citizens at retail. (Well, since LBJ, anyway. FDR really went retail on Japan and Germany.).
If this keeps up, after the inaguration, we will see a US body count that will make Slick Willie look like a rank amateur. All those nasty pockets of wrongthink.
But please, please, make Shrillary Rodham Critter the Secretary of State. And, Hillary, take Chuck (not Pelto, he’s not properly indoctrinated) with you.
The rest of us better hunker down and try to ride this out.

Remember. It doesn’t have to be right, it doesn’t have to be true, it just has to be policy. (Pelto, take a quarter and go make a down payment on a sense of humor. It will serve you better than sputtering for the next 4 years.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:04 pm 172. Rob M.:

Okay, I read this article twice and I still think to myself, What a joke1 That whole setup about how this guy never used the internet before 2004 was almost amusing, like I’m going to read that and think to myself, wow, here’s somebody totally outside the box… an old school kind of guy… speaking my language, I really identify with him!!

Like I said, almost amusing, save for the fact that the time I spent reading it is time I’ll never get back. The fact is, this article could be written by anybody possessing the vast knowledge required to type “google.com” into their browser’s address bar. I commend Mr. Moran for finding the strength and wherewithal.

Still, the matter of reason does not escape Mr. Moran’s piece. Although the article does accurately define the conspiracy theorists’ failure to answer the “why”, the article itself features that very flaw. To what end is this information useful, aside from a childish “told you so” attitude? How does this article stimulate me, the reader, in a positive sense? Is stirring debate amongst a mindless internet population of moot opinion somehow supposed to enhance the human experience?

Say whatever you will, you’re only saying it. Only by doing are things done. Remember, it’s the small things in life that define the biggest degree of character- that somebody would deny their own name speaks more volume than their proof of citizenship. Using nominalizations, (deceptive motivation through the act of using verbs as nouns, i.e., Change America Needs) simply points to how easily people are manipulated and willing to displace blame, (i.e. Americans Need TO change.)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:04 pm 173. robotech master:

All true and good point however in this link http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_did_n.html.

You see their is debate… however one funny thing about it is if his birth cert is released under a different name then this will be a major issue because clearly that is proof that he faked it(Selective service)(unless he changed his name before his 18th birthday which is a bit hard to believe but possible.)

So its still comes down to the birth cert being the key…

Heres another link with some videos/interviews on the topic.

http://deathby1000papercuts.com/2008/11/obama-selective-service-registration-another-obama-record-another-question/

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:14 pm 174. Daily Pundit » Oh, Blow It, Rick:

[...] Pajamas Media » Yes, Virginia, There Is Obama Derangement Syndrome That’s why the whole birth certificate mess just goes to show that the only true bipartisanship in America today is wild, unreasoning hate for one’s political foes. [...]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:20 pm 175. Jeff Weimer:

153. Chuck Pelto:

But you predicate this on the assumption he WASN’T born here – where’s *your* proof? You make the allegation, the burden is on you.

And really, don’t you think this would have been brought out in the PRIMARIES, especially as close as Hillary fought? C’mon, if her legal experts couldn’t find anything, do you think you can?

My child, born in the USA, has a “certificate of live birth”. Based solely on that document, you couldn’t tell if they were “natural born citizens” or not.

Also at section 1401 for those of you pointing to the “5 years rule, but over 14 and she was 18 so it doesn’t count”, only two of those five years had to be after 14, see (g). This was in effect in 1961. It was actually easier (no age and time restrictions) before noon (EST), May 24, 1934, see (h).

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:21 pm 176. malclave:

why would someone back in 1961 seek to “plant” proof that Obama was born in the U.S.?

Answer is simple. Time travel.

Remember Rathergate? Obviously, there’s a functioning time machine out there, that was used to take a modern PC and printer back in time so Bush’s commander could write that CYA memo.

The same time machine was used to plant this “birth announcement”.

And on another topic, I really should go get those prescriptions refilled.

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:30 pm 177. misanthropicus:

RE # 149/Anonymous/ Obama/Axelrod letting the BC mater become a scandal in order to deflect other, more serious issues…

Conspiracy theories notwithstanding, there might be something in what you mention – after all, firemen sometimes need to start fires in some places in order to remove the flammable material from the way of an existing fire storm.

1) At a smaller scale, Obama/Axelrod used this strategy at least once: remember when the Wright scandal hit the fan? Well, exactly that morning Obama called for a press conference to tell “everything” about Tony Rezko, and he got things the way he wanted, I tell you.

2) Also, this false target strategy was used very effective by Clinton/Carville during the Starr inqury: since the tape with Clinton being interviewed by Starr’s people couldn’t be made public for a few days, Carville’s minions took advantage of his time gap and spread the rumors the Clinton acted awfully, yelled at the prosecutors, had to leave the room for ten minutes to collect himself, and overall, his peformance was beyond damning. The Clintonistas were devastated, and on the other hand the reps were triumphant – then the tape was released and Clinton appeared, gracious, witty, friendly, cooperative… what a nice guy! And those republican creeps give him hard time!
This mascarade proved to work well, and I wouldn’t be surprised that this is the line Obama/Axelrod go on – because unless there REALLY is a problem with that damn paper, there simply is no reason not to make it available for scrutiny.
We’ll see; best regards -

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:35 pm 178. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rob M.
RE: A Diversionary Tactic

….the [Moran] article does accurately define the conspiracy theorists’ failure to answer the “why”, the article itself features that very flaw. — Rob M.

The ‘why’ is only a side issue and subject to a goodly number of speculations. The whole thing, as mentioned numerous times here and elsewhere, could be resolved simply enough.

And, if there is no such beastie as a genuine Obama Hawaiian issued Birth Certificate, I’m SURE he’d explain it under the ‘quizzing’ of the FBI.

Try to focus on the principle matter. In the military, we refer to it as ‘maintenance of the objective’. [Don't we, cedarford. Or were you ever a 'combat arms' type?]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Keep your eye on the objective. Do not be distracted by diversions.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:39 pm 179. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Just an odd thought….

….this could come out as more significant than the Johnson-MacNamara conspiracy regarding the bogus Gulf of Tonkin Incident, that got US into Viet Nam with a vengeance.

Hey! Rick Moran, et al.

And you were suggesting that there are no such thinks as US Government ‘conspiracies’?

When were you born anyway? Yesterday?

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:42 pm 180. Has a Hawaii Birth Certificate:

I was born in Hawaii in 1958 at the Kapeolani Maternity Hospital and I’m looking, as I write this, at my Certicate of Live Birth (has that old mimeographed ‘black on white’ type background etc).

In addition to the ’standard’ stuff of my name, date of birth, and location of birth, there are the signatures of both my mother and the attending physician, as well as the signature of the local Registrar (so that makes ‘3′ ‘verifications’ attesting that I was, in fact, born at the time/place listed on the form. And the language surrounding the attending physician states ” I certify that that this child was born alive on the hour and date specified above.”

Finally there is the signature of the President of the Board of Health and the Registrar General (can’t tell by looking but I’m assuming the last two are ‘form’ signatures.

There is no place where religion is entered on the form, just for the record.

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:42 pm 181. misanthropicus:

Re #170/zanne: [...] I also wonder if he didn’t use a foreign student declaration to get college aid money. I am an average taxpaying citizen and just want to unseal all of his records. What is he hiding from us? Why? [...]

zanne, and what about $750 million gotten under false pretense?

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:42 pm 182. robotech master:

177. Jeff Weimer:

“But you predicate this on the assumption he WASN’T born here – where’s *your* proof? You make the allegation, the burden is on you.”

I’m sorry you must be confused… if you apply for a drivers license does the DMV have to prove your not eligible? How about to get a loan… how about social security… how about insert hundreds of daily things…

The burden of proof solely rests on barack obama and no one else… He is required by law to show proof…

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:55 pm 183. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Has a Hawaii Birth Certificate
RE: Good to Hear….

….from you.

Great information you provide US.

An additional question or so:

[1] Is there a ‘raised’ seal on the certificate? Or an ink one? Something applied by the ‘local registrar’?
[2] Any foot-prints?
[3] Is there any indication of the ethnicity of the parents? I notice that in the document offered by the Obama campaign, it lists the father as “African”. As opposed to “Negro”, “Negroid”, or “Black”. I found the use of “African” for the father as ‘odd’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 12:59 pm 184. Peter the Sub Guy:

177. Jeff Weimer wrote:
But you predicate this on the assumption he WASN’T born here – where’s *your* proof? You make the allegation, the burden is on you.

Peter responds: Actually, the allegation is based on a number of so-called facts that have come out (conveniently) after the nomination was in the bag, like Obama’s own grandmother saying she was present for his birth in KENYA. His own book talking of his travels to Pakistan and his childhood in Indonesia when, as the laws existed atthe time, is would have been very, vey diffucukt if not impossible for a US citizen to travel or study in those countries. These are the ‘facts’ that prompt the doubt now surrounding The One. That and the fact he is working so hard, and spending so much money, to hide SOMETHING. We all just want to know what that SOMETHING is?

Jeff also wrote: My child, born in the USA, has a “certificate of live birth”. Based solely on that document, you couldn’t tell if they were “natural born citizens” or not.

Peter responds: And I’m sure if someone questioned your daughter’s citizenship, you would provide that proof in documentation. Or would you spend millions and hire three law firms to keep that info hidden because you feel it’s nobody’s business?

Also at section 1401 for those of you pointing to the “5 years rule, but over 14 and she was 18 so it doesn’t count”, only two of those five years had to be after 14, see (g). This was in effect in 1961. It was actually easier (no age and time restrictions) before noon (EST), May 24, 1934, see (h).

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:01 pm 185. Peter the Sub Guy:

Darn it. I meant to delete that last paragraph.
And I noticed after it posted that a few typos made it through.
So sorry.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:09 pm 186. Jeff Weimer:

robotech:

No, all proof currently extant points to his birth in the US. You allege he wasn’t – you have to prove THAT, he doesn’t. This is not the DMV – nice red herring though.

Besides, there’s enough people arguing his citizenship who don’t have a vested interest in him, from the Republican Governor of Hawaii on down to me. Ask Robert Hurley, we’ve jousted a few times about Obama, I’m not a fan. This is pure BS, we’ve got better things to do like make sure his administration isn’t a disaster than argue about this. It only makes us look like the unhinged left after the 2000 election, or like 9/11 truthers or even Andrew Sullivan over Trig Palin (actually close to this contretemps – birth records and all).

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:20 pm 187. wavynavy:

For what it’s worth, Mr. Moran, I’m tired of getting lectures from so-called conservatives ( Brooks, Noonan, Buckley come to mind), about matters that are important to some of us that are afraid that the hood is being pulled over our eyes. I only have to look at the duplicitous campaign that was just waged by the left and the Big Media on behalf of this phony dhimmicrat to believe that there just might be an issue here. As many have already stated here and in many other blog comments, why can’t we just get a resolution to this question? I think that I smell a rat when something so basic has to be argued for months. I have followed the story and have yet to hear an answer. How is it that you actually know that answer and so many of us do not?

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:22 pm 188. J. Rockford:

Why does Rick Moran refer to people who are simply interested in seeing the U.S. Constitution adhered to as loons? Why can’t B. Hussein Obama simply show his vault birth certificate? Moran says a birth announcement in a newspaper is proof. Why is not a recorded tape of Obama’s grandmother saying he was born in Kenya not proof? People skeptical of Obama’s citizenship are not loons, Rick Moran is the one who is a jerk.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:30 pm 189. Locomotive Breath:

Obama’s mother being a U.S. Citizen does not automatically make him a Citizen regardless of his birthplace. If Obama was NOT born in Hawaii then she did not meet the residency requirement to make him a Citizen. See the correction by well-known law blogger Eugene Volokh who was also confused about the issue.

[Eugene Volokh, December 1, 2008 at 12:07pm] Trackbacks
Correction About Natural-Born Citizen Law
http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_11_30-2008_12_06.shtml#1227910730

Hawaii has TWO birth documents. Obama has presented an electronic copy of a “Certification of Live Birth”. To prove Hawaiian ancestry, the state of Hawaii will not accept a “Certification”. You must present a “Certificate of Live Birth” which is a different document and which Obama refuses to have released.

http://hawaii.gov/dhhl/applicants/appforms/applyhhl

[Quote]In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL.[Quote]

Hawaiian officials did say there is a “Certificate of Live Birth” but they did NOT say what information was on it, as they are prohibited by law from releasing that information. Obama could have it released with just a phone call.

Why does he not put this whole thing to rest by releasing the CERTIFICATE?

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:31 pm 190. Tom:

This is the reply I received from my senator:

Thank you for contacting me regarding President-Elect Obama’s citizenship. I appreciate hearing from you and would like to respond to your concerns.

Like you, I believe that our federal government has the responsibility to make certain that the Constitution of the United States is not compromised. We must fight to uphold our Constitution through our courts and political processes.

Article II of the Constitution provides that “no Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” The Constitution, however, does not specify how that qualification for office is to be enforced. As you may know, a voter recently raised this issue before a federal court in Pennsylvania. On October 24, 2008, the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania released an order in the case of Berg v.Obama.In that case, the plaintiff, Phillip Berg, raised the same issue that your letter raises regarding proof of the President-Elect’s birthplace. Through his lawsuit, Mr. Berg sought to compel President-Elect Obama to produce a certified copy of his birth certificate.

The District Court dismissed Mr. Berg’s suit and held that the question of Obama’s citizenship is not a matter for a court to decide. The court further noted that voters, not courts, should decide whether a particular presidential candidate is qualified to hold office.

Presidential candidates are vetted by voters at least twice – first in the primary elections and again in the general election. President-Elect Obama won the Democratic Party’s nomination after one of the most fiercely contested presidential primaries in American history. And, he has now been duly elected by the majority of voters in the United States. Throughout both the primary and general election, concerns about Mr. Obama’s birthplace were raised. The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.

After he is sworn into office, Mr. Obama will be our nation’s President and I intend to bestow upon him the honor and respect due any man who holds that Office. Yet, I am certain that there will be times when I will disagree and oppose President Obama’s policies. When that happens, you can be assured that I will pursue vigorously what I believe to be in the best interest of Florida and the nation.

I thank you for sharing your views with me and will keep your concerns in mind. If you have additional questions or comments, please contact me. For more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at http://martinez.senate.gov.

Sincerely,

Mel Martinez
United States Senator

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:33 pm 191. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Really?

No, all proof currently extant points to his birth in the US. — Jeff Weimer

Show US the ‘proof’ you speak of.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[All we are saaaaayyyyiiiing;
Is give proof to UUUUUuuuuusssss. -- George Harrison (paraphrased)]

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:35 pm 192. Anonymous - San Francisco:

#179 – the most frustrating part is that we’re doing exactly what they want instead of focusing on important issues. They just announced that they received almost $750 million in donations but nobody is asking how they accomplished that during the worst financial crisis in recent history because we’re all too busy talking about the BC issue.

Yet Obama and Axelrod could clear this up in a day if they wanted to and nobody would talk about it again. I feel as though both of them really enjoy playing games with people, it makes them feel more powerful and also confirms their belief that they’re smarter than us.

They also seem extremely vindictive – after Clinton was nominated someone “leaked” a report to the media that they were considering hiring Lewinsky for a job in the new administration so that everyone would be reminded of her public humuliation when Clinton was in office. That really crosses over into behavior I consider abnormal – winning ins’t enough for people working for him. They need to humuliate people also, they enjoy it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:39 pm 193. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Just Wondering…..

…what all these ardent defenders of The One till do if it is proven that he is NOT ‘the One’ who can sit in the Big Chair.

Will they quietly accept the result of having Biden as President of the United States?

Will they express apologetic remorse for being lead down the proverbial ‘prime rose path’?

Will that attack those of US who were right to suspect the veracity of the Dimocratic Party that this guy was eligible?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[It's easy to forgive when you're right. It's much more difficult to do so when the other side was right.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:43 pm 194. Jeff Weimer:

to Peter the Sub Guy from Jeff the Target guy:

Where is the primary source of the Grandmother’s statement? If there is none it’s hearsay at best and a fabrication at worst, but definitely not FACT.

Pakistan was an ally during the cold war, it wouldn’t have been impossible to go there, even if it would not necessarily have been safe. Same for Indonesia. It would not have been impossible as he was the dependent of an Indonesian (national? Citizen?). It still doesn’t cast doubt on his citizenship. If he were a dual-citizen, so what? There is no prohibition for dual-citizens, it’s inherent in that that he was still a US citizen. He was too young to renounce officially, and you have to do that to certain officials of the US government – again no record, and you have to be 18. there is also no record of him doing anything that would automatically revoke his citizenship. He returned to Hawaii before 18, and there’s no provision in US law that says a parent or guardian can do it for him. In any case, those countries were NOT closed to travel by US citizens at that time.

My child with the COLB, if challenged, would produce that as proof. Under current logic, it wouldn’t be enough for you. And it wouldn’t be your business, as that should be enough proof.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:44 pm 195. Has a Hawaii Birth Certificate:

To Chuck Pelto # 185.

An additional question or so:

[1] Is there a ‘raised’ seal on the certificate? Or an ink one? Something applied by the ‘local registrar’?

Not on mine; there is a attestation by the State Registrar and President of Board of Health (the last 2 signatures on mine that I refer to as ‘form’ signatures, that the copy is a true and correct copy of a Certificate of Live Birth on File.

[2] Any foot-prints?

If you mean seals, no.

[3] Is there any indication of the ethnicity of the parents? I notice that in the document offered by the Obama campaign, it lists the father as “African”. As opposed to “Negro”, “Negroid”, or “Black”. I found the use of “African” for the father as ‘odd’.

Yes, but no ‘blocks to check’. On mine father, mother and myself all have race: Causasian.

What I find interesting about the Obama Certificate that has been posted, and what appears to be missing, is the attestation by an attending physician that I was born at the date and time indicated on the form.

I also checked by wife’s and my children’s (all of whom were born in different states) and the one form of commonality between all theirs and mine is they all have an attestation from an attending physician that the child listed was born at the listed date and time. I would suggest those interested check their BC to see what’s on it.

I see no physician attestation on the form posted re: Obama. Now, clearly Obama was born, the question is where and when. The physicians attestation would end this issue, if there was one. If the attestation was/is blank, well, all that would be know is that said child was born, not where or when.

Dec 5, 2008 - 1:46 pm 196. Thinking Person:

#192 Tom….I find the assertion in the letter that “The voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications to hold the office of President.” to be really, really troublesome. So basically Sen. Martinez is stating that because Obama brainwashed a lot of illiterate, unthinking, followers who voted for him without a platform that that should be the end-game to his citizenship status? I’m thinking Sen. Martinez is sadly mistaken and forgot that he is there to represent all of the citizens in his voting district and not just the braindead sheep that pushed the “change” button. Dear God.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:01 pm 197. Jeff Weimer:

Chuck:

Umm, the certificate of live birth, backed up (circumstantially) by the notice in the newspaper, which comes from the hospitals and nowhere else. I mean really, we can parse through and *declare* it’s a fake, but where is YOUR proof? All of this is legally accepted documentation, and your allegations are exactly…what?

Pic of certificate (I *know*, you guys don’t believe it!):
http://www.politifact.com/media/img/graphics/birthCertObama.jpg

Pic of newspaper notice (Same, I *know* you don’t believe it.):
http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/page-view.jpg

Can’t read that? Here’s a focus on The One:
http://texasdarlin.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/close-up.jpg

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:05 pm 198. CTN:

Mr. Weimer,

Thanks so much for providing a definition of a “national,” however, as before, I would appreciate it if you would furnish us with a definition of “natural born” as it is used in Article II Section I.

Then if you could account for Obama’s “natural born” subjection to the King, as well as his Indonesian citizenship — whether it was natural or naturalized — I will begin to wax as confident as you. Until then, however, I shall remain unsatisfied that he or anyone else has begun to answer the primary question at hand.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:08 pm 199. Obloodyhell:

I think Moran has a case, buuuuut, as a commenter notes:

> I agree with Rick Moran’s article, but must still ask one question – Why is Obama and his staff so reluctant to authorize the showing of the original birth certificate?

This is a lot like Saddam and his WMDs. WTF? If he really didn’t have them, then what’s the issue with demonstrating it? The worthless thug SOB could have stayed in power if he’d just passed that test. So Occam’s Razor applies — one has to assume that he couldn’t pass it.

I likewise don’t get it with the whole Birth Certificate thing. If it’s valid, and doesn’t make an issue of his status as an NBC, then what the hell is the problem with showing it?

Applying Occam’s Razor again, one has to assume that there’s some fairly relevant problem it would reveal.

I.E. — Something *stinks* here. Like two-week old fish…

And THAT’s why it’s significant to know the answer.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:11 pm 200. e. nonee moose:

Show US the ‘proof’ you speak of.

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2008/10/27/daily60.html

“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate,” said Chiyome Fukino. “State law prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.”

Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.

What more proof do you need? You may as well be challenging John McCain’s American birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:14 pm 201. dragonfly:

Like Moran, I am leary of all conspiracy theories, whether it be of JFK’s assassination of Clinton’s “murders”. But it is not just the Birth Certificate, stupid!

The outcry for full disclosure of the public record of the holder of the highest office in our nation cannot fairly be called “looney”. From the outset of his campaign, Obama has, calculatedly, concealed or misrepreented almost every detail of his adult life. His scholastic record, his law office record, his relationship with an extremist pastor, his close ties to a radical marxist, his affiliation with the major black newspaper in Chicago, his role in a failed $100 million dollar educational project. When questioned, he has lied.

He is presented as an intellectual, but where is the documentation, from school, from law publications, from published books, from legislation?. Is flowery exhortation, with vacuous content, evidence of high intellect?

Does Moran not concede that all this should inevitably raise doubts and demands for explanation? Does he truly find honest outrage to be conspiritorial?

“Conspiritorial” is the way Sarah Palin has been “vetted” mericlessly and ridiculed for her open record. YET WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO HAS NEVER BEEN VETTED AND PROTESTS ANY INQUIRIES AS INSULTS AND HATE-MONGERING.

Mr. Moran considers “paranoid” those who ask for honest answers?

No candidate for office has ever received such a free ride. Maybe it was not a true “conspiracy”. The fact that some protesters are obsessive does not mean they are inflicted with aranoia. It is WRONG to elect someone to high office based solely on his persona and oratory. It is totally RATIONAL to require full disclosure. We demand it even of security guards. A socialist hack gets a pass for the Presidency because he’s so pretty and talks so nice he makes college girls and anchormen pee down their legs and no one wants to appear bigoted,
even to themselves.

Methinks Mr. Moran rightly identifies himself as a Right-Wing Nut.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:20 pm 202. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Another ‘Indicator’

I do believe that during the run-up to the election, Rick Moran published an item on the web that if Obama is elected, that The One would be ‘his president’.

Respectfully, if there is no proof, as in a bona fide birth certificate that is not a counterfeit, that Obama IS a natural-born citizen of the United States, he is NOT going to be MY president. And, indeed, technically speaking, he is not THE President of the United States.

Looking more closely at the material provided by robotech master about the Hawaiian Revised Statutes, it seems that ANYONE can walk into a Hawaiian government office relating to vital statistics and get a ‘birth certificate’ issued no matter WHERE they were born.

We could be talking about taking ‘carpet bagging’ to a level an order of magnitude above Hillary Clinton’s being a Senator for New York, when she moved there from Arkansas just in time to get legally onto the ballot.

But at least SHE did it legally.

It’s really quite simple. If you just take a deep breath, step back and look at it.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:21 pm 203. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Really….

Umm, the certificate of live birth…. — Jeff Weimer

…try not to be a total moron. There is no signature. And as I said earlier, I could generate a document that, like the COLB offered by Obama, could prove that Arnold the Governator was born in Washington DC on the 4th of July.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S.
After pointing this out to you on SEVERAL occasions, I get the distinct impression that English is not your natural language.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:25 pm 204. sydney jane:

My sister was born in Canada, of US parents. Yet, she has a certificate of live birth in the USA. She also had a Canadian birth certificate. So, just because Obama has a certificate of live birth from Hawaii doesn’t mean a thing. Anybody born to American parents overseas will get one. Shiloh and the Pitt twins can have one.

And, the fact that officials in Hawaii apparently said they have his birth certificate on file, but didn’t answer the fundamental question…sounds like they’re trying to cover up something to me.

All they have to do is release the damn thing. This is for the presidency of the United States, for goodness sakes. Why NOT release it?

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:25 pm 205. Jeff Weimer:

CTN:

Anything not “National” is considered “Citizen”. That’s why they had section 1408, as 1401 contains both National and Citizen (as you have duly noted). It’s a matter of subtraction, if you fall under both 1401 and 1408, you’re a National. If only 1401, you’re a Citizen. Read both sections – it’ll tell you everything you need to know.

1401: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

1408: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001408—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:38 pm 206. Jeff Weimer:

CTN:

“Natural Born” is as it says, born a US citizen. From all available records, Obama is a “Natural Born” citizen. The same question came up about McCain – he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. He was born to two US Citizens outside the US. It still makes him “Natural Born”, as it pertains to the law and (thus) the Constitution. If you are born a Citizen, you are “Natural Born”, you were never anything else.

See 1401(c):
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001401—-000-.html

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:51 pm 207. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Jeff Weimer
RE: Those ‘Links’

What do they have to do with this issue? Bankruptcy? Donations?

Better luck next time, buckie.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:54 pm 208. Econ_Scott:

You are a smart man Moran. There has to be some reason your obfuscating.

You’re wrong about getting a passport of his Certificate of Live Birth. Both You and Ed Morrisey. I just got one. It requires a certified copy of the long form Standard form Birth Certificate wich also certifies the date time EXACT LOCATION and Third party Witness, almost invariable the physician,

My Wife who by stroke of luck was born on a road trip to Alberta Canada to an American Mother and Canadian Father, Was DENIED a new passport until she could prove in addition to the LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE, her Claim of U.S. Citizenship Paperwork at age 18.

The same as is being requested of Mr. Obama.

The State Department eventually found my wife’s paperwork … They just want to Charge her $575 to get a copy.

Maybe Obama doesn’t want to pay the $575.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:54 pm 209. CTN:

Mr. Weimer,

Even if you are correct, neither you nor Obama nor anyone else have accounted for his dual citizenship at birth or his Indonesian citizenship as a child, as they apply to the question. Moreover, no one has furnished tangible evidence to prove that Obama is a US Citizen, let alone a “natural born citizen.” Perhaps the most interesting fact about this controversy, however, is that Obama is a Harvard-trained constitutional attorney who also taught constitutional law. You would think he could answer this question in the blink of an eye. Then again, there is a reason he refuses to answer the question except through he surrogates at Annenberg and the Daily KOS.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:56 pm 210. Jeff Weimer:

But Sydney Jane,

She’s probably a Natural Born Citizen of the United States anyway, by law – see my previous posts re: section 1401 and 1408. She may also be a Canadian citizen. That wouldn’t stop her from being President, the law is silent on dual citizenship as it pertains to responsibilities and privileges.

Dec 5, 2008 - 2:57 pm 211. Herb:

Wow, some of the comments here are hilarious. And not in a good way. Especially the reliable Chuck Pelto.

Is there a raised seal????? Dude…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:08 pm 212. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I think we have to remember that nobody really knows how many people in this country want to have this issue resolved soon. The media obviously doesn’t want anything to happen – they know having a celebrity with children in the WH helps sells magazines and even clothing so they’re not going to even report that people are discussing. However, they don’t seem to have a problem discussing how Clinton might not be eligible – very strange.

Most people don’t have to time to post online the way we are but I think it’s unfair to conclude that the people who think there is a problem with his BC are the same kind of people who think 9/11 was an inside job. There are probably more people who feel this way than we realize. Last week the op-ed in our newspaper was their response to all the people who have emailed them wondering why the media isn’t talking about this issue. They have most have receieved many emails if they decided they had to respond to people in op-ed with an explanation – the explanation was that they have decided it’s not “news worthy” because state health officials verified his BC was real.

This is the most liberal city in the country – almost everyone here is a Democrat who voted for him. If newspapers here are receiving lots of emails from people frustrated that the media isn’t talking about this issue, then I’m sure it’s the same in the other cities. This is also a city where people are more educated than most cities so they’re not stupid.

Yet people try to make you feel crazy if you bring us the BC issue, the same as what the person did here. He even calls us stupid and said we’re idiots just because we’re discussing it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:13 pm 213. dragonfly:

The newspaper notice is worthless as evidence to all but the simple-minded.. A newspaper, in those days, published any notice of birth received, from any source. No checking, no demand for certification.

A couple whose child was born abroad, returning to the U.S. and keenly aware of the advantages of giving him immediate citizenship rather than going through naturalization procedures later (tough in those days) would have every incentive to insert a Birth Notice in the local paper, without any thought of the Presidency. The benefits were obvious.

Lots of children were born at home, with or without midwives. The actual birthdate could have been weeks or months earlier, the actual place anywhere in the world. All hat was required was whatever date the supplier of the notice chose and a residential address. If Mama came back alone, or been abandoned, there was nothing to stop her from stating “Mr. & Mrs.”. OR MAYBE A SMART GRANDMA did it, on behalf of her distraught daughter. The newspaper sure didn’t check any more than it would check on a classified ad.

Has any body checked to see if the address given was Grandma’s house?

In truth, this is a highly plausible scenario, given the stonewall on producing any Certification that would survive examination. Am I becoming paranoid?

Mr. Moran’s write-off of the whole Birth Certificate issue on the basis of this notice sort of puts the “looney” label on the Right-Wing Nut.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:23 pm 214. Rob:

I’m not a crazy person. I hope Obama is a citizen – natural born – of the United States. But if he was born in Kenya he is not a citizen – natural born or otherwise – by Federal statute. Obama should provide an actual birth certificate identifying the actual details of his birth in Hawaii. He hasn’t done that, and because he hasn’t done that I have a growing sense of dread that he cannot do it because no such certificate exists.

I don’t know where we go from here.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:28 pm 215. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Raised Seal?

Is there a raised seal????? Dude….. — Herb

Show US the birth certificate and maybe we’ll know.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Glad to provide you with some ‘levity’…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:28 pm 216. Econ_Scott:

PS- The immigration officer, a woman did make my wife cry when she got off the cruise ship at Key West and arrest her for 8 hours and threaten to deport her.

Ah such is having the correct paperwork eh ?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:29 pm 217. Ella Lackey:

I didn’t see anyone covering this, but Obama is only a natural-born citizen if he was born in Hawaii. There are two reasons that he cannot be if he was born in Kenya:
1. His mother was too young. In 1961, the American parent had to be 19 (as in, an adult at the time of the child’s conception) for the child to be granted US citizenship.
2. His birth would have had to be registered at the American embassy or nearest consulate.

Also, there is some question over whether he can be President if he was a citizen of another country, such as Indonesia, and then naturalized back into the US.

None of this has been answered.

John McCain released his birth certificate, proving it had been appropriately filed with the US embassy in Panama, this summer to prove he met the citizenship requirements. What’s the big deal about this?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:29 pm 218. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Anonymous – San Francisco
RE: Heh….

I think we have to remember that nobody really knows how many people in this country want to have this issue resolved soon. — Anonymous – San Francisco

So, the Constitution and the Law mean nothing to you, eh.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A government of laws, and not of men. -- John Adams]

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:31 pm 219. dragonfly:

RE YOUR REJECTION: This post is ENTIRELY different than my earlier one, or I wuld not have submitted it. How come I see other commentators giving a running series, repeating themselves over and over, and yet a truly legitimate second thought gets rejected?

Stu williamson

Like Moran, I am leary of all conspiracy theories, whether it be of JFK’s assassination of Clinton’s “murders”. But it is not just the Birth Certificate, stupid!

The outcry for full disclosure of the public record of the holder of the highest office in our nation cannot fairly be called “looney”. From the outset of his campaign, Obama has, calculatedly, concealed or misrepreented almost every detail of his adult life. His scholastic record, his law office record, his relationship with an extremist pastor, his close ties to a radical marxist, his affiliation with the major black newspaper in Chicago, his role in a failed $100 million dollar educational project. When questioned, he has lied.

He is presented as an intellectual, but where is the documentation, from school, from law publications, from published books, from legislation?. Is flowery exhortation, with vacuous content, evidence of high intellect?

Does Moran not concede that all this should inevitably raise doubts and demands for explanation? Does he truly find honest outrage to be conspiritorial?

“Conspiritorial” is the way Sarah Palin has been “vetted” mericlessly and ridiculed for her open record. YET WE HAVE A PRESIDENT WHO HAS NEVER BEEN VETTED AND PROTESTS ANY INQUIRIES AS INSULTS AND HATE-MONGERING.

Mr. Moran considers “paranoid” those who ask for honest answers?

No candidate for office has ever received such a free ride. Maybe it was not a true “conspiracy”. The fact that some protesters are obsessive does not mean they are inflicted with aranoia. It is WRONG to elect someone to high office based solely on his persona and oratory. It is totally RATIONAL to require full disclosure. We demand it even of security guards. A socialist hack gets a pass for the Presidency because he’s so pretty and talks so nice he makes college girls and anchormen pee down their legs and no one wants to appear bigoted,
even to themselves.

Methinks Mr. Moran rightly identifies himself as a Right-Wing Nut.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:34 pm 220. Ella Lackey:

Jeff Weimer at 1:44pm:

1. Yes, it was prohibited by the Pakastani government for US citizens to travel there. That is why Obama used his Indonesian passport to travel there; he wouldn’t have been allowed to go otherwise.

2. The US may allow dual citizenship, but Indonesia doesn’t. If Obama became a citizen of Indonesia, his American citizenship would have been renounced, and he would have had to be naturalized back again.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:37 pm 221. robotech master:

Still waiting on some proof Jeff weimer… You know something that at least the DMV would take in order for him to get a license… Half a blanked out copy of a birth cert is not going to be taken by the DMV… nor is some newpaper article.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:37 pm 222. Ella Lackey:

And it’s important to note, Obama has NEVER supplied a COLB. He gave a copy (allegedly) to Soros- and Annenberg-run FactCheck.org, and they put a photcopy on the web. A photocopy which was later cleaned up because the first was, ahem, questionable.

There is no evidence unless you feel like playing Dan Rather to FactCheck’s Lucy Ramirez.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:39 pm 223. Jeff Weimer:

Aagh, you all assume he’s born elsewhere, PROVE IT. Without that, you don’t have nothing on which to stand. There’s more, real, legal evidence he was born in Hawaii, and NONE he didn’t (someone posted that another said an unnamed Grandmother SWEARS he was born in Kenya doesn’t meant a darn thing). So prove he didn’t.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:45 pm 224. Econ_Scott:

To get a passport requires a Certified Copy of the LONG FORM STANDARD BIRTH CERIFICATE revised in 1949, Which details Exact Time, EXACT LOCATION OF BIRTH, and THIRD PARTY EYEWITNESS TO THE LIVE BIRTH — In Hospital always the Attending Physician.

It Costs about $12 to $15 buck to get one and about a week unless you want to spend

To Date, there is no documentary evidence that Barack Obama wasn’t born in Beijing, China, Mombasa Kenya, Honolulu, Chicago, Sydney or Paris France or Paris Texas for that matter. There is just no Documentary evidence that would stand scrutiny in a court of law about where the hell he was born. Since he went to Harvard and got elected, does it matter ? Does following the Constitution matter on this or anything else it states is the law of the land ?

There is hearsay evidence that Obama’s grandmother was present at his birth in Mombasa. It’s not certified as Subpoenaed or “under oath” in a court of a law.

There is no documentation with the eye witness certification and as such it is easy to obtain but you know maybe it is the money that’s been the holdup.

Should we all pony up the $15 for him to get the certified long form copy of his birth ? Tell you what Moran, you put in a $fiver and I’ll send him a certified $10 bill. Then he can just get a copy and be done with it and get on with governing.

What do you say ?

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:46 pm 225. Thinking Person:

It’s very easy to sum up:

It’s one of two choices…

1) You believe the certificate shows Obama is NOT a natural born citizen and want to see and verify it before his annointing in January.

2) You believe “sources” that vouch for the certificate but are afraid of finding out the truth JUST IN CASE so will take “sources” word for it and want the story to go away.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:48 pm 226. VekTor:

Some excerpts from a summary writeup I made for the HotAir thread:

The following will be in the context entirely outside Donofrio’s suit, speaking to the “birth certificate” issues.

There are two different documents that Hawaii can issue with respect to documentation of births. The first and most common, and the one provided by FactCheck and others, is the Certification of Live Birth. This is also referred to as the “short form”.

It’s important to note that this document reflects the CURRENT state of information on file in Hawaii, which is not necessarily the same as the information on the other form. Why is this important? Because Hawaii allows for the amendment of “birth certificates”, particularly when adoptions are involved.

See http://hawaii.gov/health/vital-records/vital-records/newbirthcert.html

The other form is the Certificate of Live Birth, sometimes called the “long form” version. It is maintained in vault status, and is not amended. It contains original records and documentation from the location of birth, such as the signature of the attending physician.

Note the naming distinction. Certification of Live Birth = short form. Certificate of Live Birth = long form…. ….[P]eople are referring to a certificate of live birth being released. This is not the case. What has been released is a copy of the CertificaTION of Live Birth.

For an example of what the Hawaii version of the long form typically looks like, see http://snarkybytes.com/?p=521

As has been pointed out, Hawaii will issue Certification of Live Birth certificates even for persons born outside of the state of Hawaii. See, for example:
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol06_Ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.htm

Because of the nature of the Hawaii laws, there are some “original birth certificates” on vault-copy file in Hawaii for births that did not actually take place in Hawaii.

One of the pieces of information included on the “long form”, and not subject to later amendment, is the “Attendant” field, where someone signs their name next to the following text: “I hereby certify that this child was born alive on the date and hour stated above”. There are boxes to indicate MD, midwife, etc.

Since Hawaii allows for the issuance of birth certificates for those born outside the state after the fact, some have put forth a scenario along the following lines: Obama’s mother traveled to Kenya, and when nearing the time of delivery, was prohibited from boarding the flight back to Hawaii. Obama was born in Kenya, his mother flew back after the fact and registered the birth four days later.

If that were the case, Hawaii could very well have on-file a Kenyan birth certificate or other documentation, and a certification of live birth could have been issued, as his mother had been a resident of Hawaii for at least a year prior.

Upon subsequent adoption, his certification of live birth entries could have been modified to reflect different information than what was included on the original documentation.

All of the official statements of Hawaii officials, particularly Fukino, are consistent with this scenario, even if Obama were physically born in Kenya.

(I’m not contending that he was, merely pointing out that nothing that the officials have said contradict that scenario.)

What REPORTERS have claimed is not the same thing as what the officials themselves have said.

…[A]s has been pointed out, the law “prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record.” I think the Supreme Court could certainly make the case that they have a tangible interest in determining whether Obama is constitutionally eligible, and thus could likely gain access if they so ordered.

I don’t know where Obama was born. It might very well make a difference, and I do know that his persistent stonewalling on releasing a long-form vault copy of his birth certificate has added massive fuel to this fire. It leads people to the natural conclusion that he has something to hide.

Do either Berg’s or Donofrio’s suits have merit? I don’t know. But I think it is a grave disservice to lump those who question why Obama is so very reluctant to release his long-form birth certificate (along with a massive pile of other records) in with 9/11 Truthers.

There are important constitutional questions at stake here. Whether someone thinks the rule of law actually matters is not a litmus test for Trutherism.

It’s an entirely reasonable observation to point out that (with the notable exception of Donofrio’s suit) the vast majority of this would be utterly silenced by issuing a certified copy of the long-form, unamended birth certificate… and that Obama’s reticence to do so arouses reasonable suspicions.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:49 pm 227. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I was saying that people are trying to make anyone who discusses this feel that there are only a few other people discussing it and they’re all crazy or stupid but that we have to remember we don’t know how many people in this country feel the same way as us. Most people don’t have time for online forums so we don’t know they exist but I think many more people are concerned about this the media wants us to believe. If the most liberal city in the country has lots of people asking about it then I’m sure lots of other people are also.

But when you mention it you’re called stupid or crazy the same way he is here.

“You’re the same as people who think 9/11 is an inside job.”

We’re not the same as those people. I think the constitution is important but overturning the election results now would probably cause so much anger from voters that I don’t think they should do it. The FEC was supposed to make sure the candidates were eligible – if they didn’t then voters should sue them but we can’t tell half the country their votes didn’t count just because the FEC didn’t do their job.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:50 pm 228. Jeff Weimer:

Ella:

He was unable to renounce, he wasn’t 18. Find some documentation for your information, otherwise it’s just conjecture.

Dec 5, 2008 - 3:51 pm 229. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Anonymous – San Francisco
RE: Ah!

I was saying that people are trying to make anyone who discusses this feel that there are only a few other people discussing it and they’re all crazy or stupid but that we have to remember we don’t know how many people in this country feel the same way as us. — Anonymous – San Francisco

Thank you for clarifying that. I obviously misunderstood, based on what I read in the first few lines. [Note: I apologize, but 27 years of wearing green taught me to take the final gist of an item from reading the first lines. Something to do about putting the main point first and then using the rest of the document as supporting evidence.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Old habits, especially the good ones, die hard.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:03 pm 230. misanthropicus:

RE #202/nonee moose: [...] Citing her statutory authority to oversee and maintain Hawaii’s vital records, Fukino said she has “personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures. [...]”

nonee moose, you like all Soetretrolls come with this nonsense – Fukino speaks legalese, she doesn’t say yes, she doesn’t say no regarding Soetero’s status.
And since you are so confident in Soetero’s integrity, why don’t you plead too, for releasing the certificate for public scrutiny?
Can you answer this? Do it!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:04 pm 231. SamIam:

Why the hell would the Obama campaign spend upwards of $1 million (reportedly) so far to combat the lawsuits rather than simply releasing the birth certificate?

Occam’s razor, folks.

If the SCOTUS doesn’t take the case this issue will be a permanent question.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:07 pm 232. Dave:

Ella Lackey your #222: Indonesia does NOT determine who is and is not a US citizen.

Indonesian law does NOT apply. AMERICAN law does.

You are in the position of stating that a foreign country has jurisdiction over these United States. Clean up your act!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:08 pm 233. Chuck Pelto:

TO: SamIam, et al.
RE: Indeed

If the SCOTUS doesn’t take the case this issue will be a permanent question. — SamIam

And thing could get rather ‘interesting’ as a result of inaction on the part of the various parts of our government.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Courage is your greatest present need.....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:15 pm 234. Herb:

Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it?

Do you fit any of the following criteria?

* the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
* the registrant’s spouse;
* the registrant’s parent(s);
* a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
* a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);
* a legal guardian of the registrant;
* a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
* a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
* a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
* adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
* a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
* a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
* a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

No??? Then you have no legal obligation to view Obama’s birth certificate. You’re just going to have to take the authorities’ word for it.

Where’s YOUR birth certificate? Why haven’t you made it public?

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:20 pm 235. robotech master:

225. Jeff Weimer:

“Aagh, you all assume he’s born elsewhere, PROVE IT. Without that, you don’t have nothing on which to stand. There’s more, real, legal evidence he was born in Hawaii, and NONE he didn’t (someone posted that another said an unnamed Grandmother SWEARS he was born in Kenya doesn’t meant a darn thing). So prove he didn’t.”

No you assume HE was born in Hawaii… I assume he was born SOMEWHERE… I ask for proof where he was born you submit NOTHING EXPECT EXCUSES.”

The only one assuming IS YOU. You ASSUME HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII AND IS A US CITIZEN… I ASSUME HE WAS BORN AND COULD BE A US CITIZEN… don’t confuse your little world…. with mine.(trust me you wouldn’t last long in my world)

The Constitution clearly states that obama MUST PROVE HE IS A US CITIZEN… YOU ASSUMING HE IS A US CITIZEN ISN’T PROOF. Posting a birth cert that any legal and illegal alien can get both legally and illegally very easily IS NOT PROOF.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:21 pm 236. robotech master:

Herb:

“Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it?”

Having a birth cert on record isn’t prove of being a US citizen… just means theirs some paper work their… if you can post where Hawaii says barack obama is a US citizen born in hawaii then thats proof.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:30 pm 237. B-Rob:

Robotech — simple question: how do you suggest he prove where he was born? What evidence would you accept. His mom is dead, his dad is dead, and so are his grandparents.

Let me tell you how I would prove my birthplace. My mom is alive (Dad, sadly, is not) but her mother was at my birth and she died in the mid 1970s. The ob/gyn who delivered me died about 15 years ago from cancer. So how do I prove my place of birth hyp[othetically assuming my mom was dead? Well, I have a birth certificate and there is a birth announcement in my local newspaper. Funny . . . that’s the same thing Obama has . . . .

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:42 pm 238. Anonymous - San Francisco:

I can’t believe we’re actually arguing over the President of our country refusing to show anyone his BC – it almost seems unreal, something that would be happening in a third world country not the most powerful Democracy in the world. I still can’t believe we elected someone who won’t show us his BC, medical records, college transcripts, senate records, nobody in the country has ever talked to any woman he was involved with prior to Michelle, nobody has talked to anyone who knew him in college, he is called a brilliant lawyer but doesn’t seem to have ever been in court, never wrote any legal briefs, nothing.

If I was asking people to vote for me so I could be the most powerful leader in the world, I would offer to give them anything they ask for instead of having my lawyers threaten people. The irony is that Obama wouldn’t be able to work for his own administration because he wouldn’t pass the background check.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:45 pm 239. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master, et al.
RE: What They Say….

Having a birth cert on record isn’t prove of being a US citizen… just means theirs some paper work their… if you can post where Hawaii says barack obama is a US citizen born in hawaii then thats proof. — robotech master

….vs. What is Real.

I’ve found that government officials can twist the English language into all sorts of half-truths.

Indeed, we here, locally, are dealing with such a situation now, vis-a-vis our City Council, which has decided to ask for the resignation of the City Manager. The whole thing is a great muddle. And one cannot decide WHO is telling which particular half-truth about the mess.

If we can have that kind of a problem listening to the local level City Council, who can say we’re safe from such at the state and/or national level.

So, back-to-the-current-thread….

….you bring up a valid point about how state-level officials can be telling half-truths about Obama.

And, thinking back to 40 years ago, I’m reminded that it took 30 years before the whole truth about goverment lies regarding the start of the Viet Nam War FINALLY came to light.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. As I’ve reported elsewhere on this blog, I knew a guy who was working Operations for CINCPAC when the Gulf of Tonkin ‘Incident’ was reported. He KNEW it was a lie. But HE kept the secret to himself until AFTER MacNamara published his confession.

He confessed his knowledge about the ‘incident’ to us at a table over beer and snacks after the monthly General Meeting of Denver Mensa. Half of the table looked on in amazement. Some in horror. One or two with daggers in their eyes….

[And people think it can't happen here.....]

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:47 pm 240. B-Rob:

SamIam, you start with a couple lies:

“Why the hell would the Obama campaign spend upwards of $1 million (reportedly) so far to combat the lawsuits rather than simply releasing the birth certificate?”

Who reported they spent $1 million? And they DID release the birth certificate, but you morons said it was a fake.

Oh, that’s right. You said it was not a “birth certificate” . . . but a “record of birth” as if that is different. My bad . . . .

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:47 pm 241. robotech master:

I would accept a legal birth certificate that is compared to some other form of records(preferably the hospital records but this I can be very flexible on).

Simple easy… take 2 weeks top but if done quickly 3 days easy…

The problem your running into is the fact you would use your birth certificate to prove birth… obama refuses to use his birth certificate to prove birth… so by your own admission you demand the same thing that I do… obama birth cert… which he refuses to give up and actively prevent ppl from seeing.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:48 pm 242. JM Hanes:

Hey! Rick Moran!

In your rush to put an embarrassing display of trutherism out of its misery as quickly as possible, you completely ignore a related set of legal and political issues in dire need of attention. While I can’t speak to the content of the various Birth Certificate petitions themselves, the case itself certainly passes the two pronged Messitte test (per Taranto) of “raising particularly significant questions of law, and/or those where there is a division of legal authority.”

On the one hand we have an explicit constitutional stricture, and on the other we have neither notion nor precedent establishing who has the standing to challenge a candidate’s constitutional credentials or who is empowered to entertain such a challenge. Such daunting lack of clarity has been compounded by at least one court which asserted that it had no jurisdiction, but couldn’t say who did. IIRC, that same court also raised questions as to timliness, with regard to nomination/election/inauguration — which it left similarly unresolved.

As a matter of common sense, if not law, the most logical venue/threshold for lodging a complaint might seem to be the FEC. When a candidate himself can block the necessary quorum required for them to act, and where consequences for irregularities, whether minor or momentous, can be regulated into post election irrelevance, surely there are foundational issues crying out for a hearing at the highest levels!

Regardless of whether suspcions in some quarters seem reasonable or loony, Obama’s refusal to provide a proper birth certificate for inspection, or to explain why one is not forthcoming, seems, at the very least, bizarre. The fact that a candidate apparently cannot be compelled to demonstrate his constitutional eligibility for election to the highest office should give everyone pause. When it is unclear which branch of government even has the authority to provide a remedy, self-righteous admonitions from self-appointed judges seem particularly ill considered.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:50 pm 243. B-Rob:

Anonymous-SF:

You have proven you are a moron. Guess what? To be on the Senate Foreign Relations committee, which has access to classified information, YOU HAVE TO PASS A BACKGROUND CHECK,YOU NINNY! You have to get a top security clearance, which Obama had and Richard Shelby and Pat Leahy no longer have.

That was the dumbest thing about the William Ayers thing, too. If Obama was THAT CLOSE to a “domestic terrorist”, you think the Bush FBI and Justice would have allowed a security clearance to the junior senator from Illinois? No. So to believe that Obama “wouldn’t be able to work for his own administration because he wouldn’t pass the background check” and that he “palled around with a terrorist”, you must also have to believe that the Bush administration covered this up. Explain that, moron!

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:52 pm 244. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Why?

Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it? — Herb

Because I’ve learned better than to take government officials at their ‘word’.

Something to do with 27 years working with government bureaucrats from the Army perspective and another 11 working with them as a civil commissioner.

What’s your point? That you’re ‘gullible’ beyond belief? It’s blatantly obvious to even the most casual observer. Or maybe you’re something much, much worse….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Show US the bona fide legal and non-counterfeit birth certificate and all of this will go away.

Indeed, you and all the rest of US here have spent many more man-hours arguing the point than a simple document should require.

By the way….

….as indicated earlier here, this problem will NOT go away. Even if Obama IS sworn into the office. Indeed, things will get MUCH more ‘interesting’ if that DOES happen, without the benefit of validation of his citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 4:55 pm 245. robotech master:

B-Rob clearly you know nothing about how to get a SECURITY CLEARANCE or the process involved in it. I use to do background checks for security clearances… A top secret is only 10 years of background checks and unless something outstanding pops up their pretty easy to get. They pretty much never check vault birth cert… ever unless the question somehow comes up…

Obama has been in college and the US for well over 10 years…(think its over 20) their not going to go through much of the details or go that in-depth for some piss ant senator… sorry to burst your bubble. Even when you get into higher security clearances you need to be way up the food chain before they start looking 20+ years back.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:01 pm 246. B-Rob:

Chuck Pelto –

Obama has a passport and has had one since whenever. He probably had one as a child, given his family life. You have to submit a valid birth certificate to get one.

Let’s say he got his passport in 1971, when he came back to the US to live with his grands. What do you think his mom supplied the Nixon administration to convince them to issue him a passport? You think the conspiracy to “hide” his birthplace began back then? Well, for what purpose?

And don’t you think it is interesting that his grandparents were “clever enough” to remember to get the hospital to release his birth announcement to the newspaper? Because that is how it is done: the paper calls the hospital for all the births and deaths; they don’t wait for the families to call the paper, because most probably wouldn’t.

So this is what we have: a 47 year old newspeper story saying he was born in Hawaii, an original birth certificate that the State of Hawaii says lists his birth at that hospital, a modern day, tamper proof record from the State that says he was born there, and U.S. government passports issued to him throughout his life indicating he was born there. What the hell else more could you people want?

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:08 pm 247. Rashputin:

Chuck – ” …could get rather ‘interesting’ as a result of inaction on the part of the various parts of our government.”

Interesting to say the least. It would rapidly become clear who of those that swear to uphold the Constitution intend to do so. Hypothetically, any member of the government who does not uphold their oath to the Constitution would immediately be an enemy, by Constitution authority, of all those who did remain true to their oaths. I guess in such a case it would be important to figure out who in government takes an oath seriously, right?

In the hypothetical event that Obama were found to not be a citizen, he’d still have no need to be concerned. His Weatherman friends always swayed between anarchy and working with the system as a preferred means, so either way Obama and company get what they want. He and his supporters win either the “within the system” efforts of an un-Constitutional President, or the anarchy of an elected president being denied the office due to deliberate fraud. While the party he represented and the election oversight put in place on our behalf would both be proven failures, the root cause would be deliberate fraud. Fraud Obama perpetrated because he was sure one would pursue due to the “profound” consequences it would have for race relations. Based on the detailed records we have of his past, the stellar quality of his past associations, and the impeccable nature of the political party he represents, it’s obviously safe to assume that Obama would never try such a poly. That means, then, we can be sure he knows he’s really a citizen and is just luring his enemies into a trap.

As is now obvious, no matter how much democrat Congress volk may claim to be protecting the rights of the people, they absolutely do not think that one of those rights the people as a whole have is the right to honest elections. Otherwise, any documentation mentioned as necessary in the Constitution would be on file before there were even any finance documents to keep careful track of.

Regards

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:11 pm 248. VekTor:

Robotech said: “The Constitution clearly states that obama MUST PROVE HE IS A US CITIZEN… ”

Sadly, it does not actually say that. Part of the reason that we are at this point is that the Constitution states that TO QUALIFY to be President of the United States, he must be a natural born citizen.

Unfortunately, it does not define the test for determining who is (or is not) a natural born citizen in the specific context of this requirement, nor (staggeringly) does there appear to be ANY branch, department or agency of government which is tasked with the responsibility of determining whether someone actually meets that qualification.

It’s eminently weird that this should be the case, but it appears to be so. He’s required to BE a natural born citizen to be President, but no one is legally responsible for verifying that this is true.

To make matters even weirder, recent rulings on the question of “standing” in some of the cases related to this have led to the bizarro-world conclusion that if every single individual in the United States suffers the same “injury” from this Constitutional provision being violated, then NO ONE (apparently) has standing to sue over it.

It’s a loophole that is Kafka-esque in scope. There may be no legal way to avoid the anarchy that might arise from a non-qualified candidate assuming office.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm 249. B-Rob:

robotech –

True story. I joined a new company two years ago and guess what? After 20 months here, they mentioned that I had no provided a birth certificate. I called my mom. She doesn’t have one either.

Do we even know that Obama has

If I call the city where I was born and ask for a “birth certificate”, I am willing to bet my lect testy that the document they give me is almost identical to what Obama showed. Obama’s document is almost identical to the birth certificate I got for my daughter a year ago. And the State Department issued her a passport based on a document almost identical to what Obama produced.

There is not a shred of evidence that Obama was born anywhere but the hospital in Hawaii. All the historic records show that, including the newspaper. None of you will EVER come up with a good explanation as to how he got a passport “without a proper birth certificate”, nor will you ever explain how he passed the FBI background check and got the highest security clearance available (a) to sit on the Senate Foreign Relations committee, and (b) to receive the Presidential Daily Brief, which he has received since the election. In short, you guys are illogical boobs who probably also reject the moon landing.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm 250. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: My Birth Certificate

Where’s YOUR birth certificate? Why haven’t you made it public? — Herb

Where was it that I ran for the office of the President of the United States, where it is required by the Constitution of the United States that I be a natural-born citizen?

Try not to be such a twit.

But, give me $100,000 in the form of a certified check and I’ll send you a certified true copy of my birth certificate.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:16 pm 251. Anonymous - San Francisco:

He could pass a background check for the Senate or that committee but still not be eligible to be President – our governor in this state couldn’t be President but I’m sure he still passed a background check.

But you already know this and your insults only make you seem as though you can’t handle discussing this issue.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:20 pm 252. robotech master:

VekTor I agree its a legal mess… however I think we can agree that one must be at least a US citizen in order to be natural born… unless one has renounced ones citizenship… or had it stripped… So while it is not perfectly clear that simple fact remains…

Congrats B-Rod you once again say nothing… to sum you up obama is applying for a driver license and just because they take a form of doc that is easily faked and really doesn’t prove anything means that everyone should stand by and let things go…

I also point out to you their is not a shred of evidence that obama was born in hawaii if you have some please post it… the newspaper article clearly states nothing about where he was born… just that he was born.

I also posted about your BS FBI background check…

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:24 pm 253. craig:

The fundamental difference, of course, between ODS and BDS is that it hasn’t (yet, at least) taken over a significant chunk of the Republican party.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:28 pm 254. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Bob R
RE: Passport?

Obama has a passport and has had one since whenever. He probably had one as a child, given his family life. You have to submit a valid birth certificate to get one. — Bob R

Hmmm….

….I’ve had a passport. I don’t recall submitting a valid birth certificate for it.

Where are the regulations about getting a passport? Would a Certificate of Live Birth do in lieu of? After all, this COLB seems to be what everyone who supports The One thinks is just as good.

So. Where are the regulations regarding the issuance of a passport? That might shed some additional light on this matter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. What is Obama’s passport number?

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:28 pm 255. Rashputin:

B-Rob – “If Obama was THAT CLOSE to a “domestic terrorist”, you think the Bush FBI and Justice would have allowed a security clearance to the junior senator from Illinois? No. So to believe that Obama “wouldn’t be able to work for his own administration because he wouldn’t pass the background check” and that he “palled around with a terrorist”, you must also have to believe that the Bush administration covered this up. Explain that, moron!”

I really hate to burst your bubble, but those who need a clearance and are elected to Congress, get the clearance the same way that sharks don’t eat lawyers. A professional courtesy extended from one branch to another. In return, there isn’t too much scrutiny on those in the executive branch by those in Congress unless it’s a deliberate attempt to bargin for something not mentioned in the hearings and the press. There’s always a bit of fencing at the start of a new administration, of course, just to prove that both branches have a stiff sword, but that’s all it is.

What the Congress wants in the way of committee seats, it gets, even if those gaining access to confidential information are known junkies, sheep herders with odd inclinations, alcholics, or whatever. I base this on having worked on a Senate staff back in the seventies and ever since have been amazed that anyone tells the truth in front of a committee entrused to hear confidential information. Hopefully, it’s far better now, but in reality they’re probably using rolls of sensitive doucments for toilet tissue these days since they dissolve better than your standard non-skid and are therefore environment friendly.

You really don’t read much history that isn’t spoon fed to you from a website, do you?

have a nice day

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:29 pm 256. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rashputin
RE: Taking Thinks Seriously

Hypothetically, any member of the government who does not uphold their oath to the Constitution would immediately be an enemy, by Constitution authority, of all those who did remain true to their oaths. — Rashputin

Indeed…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
["I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:31 pm 257. Jeff Weimer:

Wow, I got dirty and you enjoyed it.

I’ll never do that again.

Stick with it, wait for Obama to give you “proof”. Oh, and hold your breath while you’re at it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:37 pm 258. VekTor:

B-Rob said: “There is not a shred of evidence that Obama was born anywhere but the hospital in Hawaii. All the historic records show that, including the newspaper.”

Which hospital in Hawaii was that, again? I haven’t seen a single “historic record” which indicates what hospital (if any) he was born in… the newspaper cited certainly didn’t. None of the major hospitals on Oahu indicate that they have a record of his being born there.

He might have been born at home, with a midwife attending, for all you know. Have you seen any official record which indicates that is not the case? There’s no field on the short-form regarding that information.

There are plenty of things you can do in Hawaii with the “short-form” Certification of Live Birth that he has produced… but there are some things you can’t do with it. Part of the reason for that is that Hawaii allows people to AMEND the contents of their short-form versions. It also allows people to get Certification of Live Birth forms for individuals who were born OUTSIDE the state.

For Hawaii’s Home Stead program, the short form will not be accepted by Hawaii officials. You have to present the (unamended) long-form Certificate of Live Birth. Why do you think they have that provision, if not for the fact that sometimes people amend the information on their short forms… particularly in conjunction with adoptions.

The long form indicates the physical location (hospital, home, etc.) and the signature of the person attending and witnessing the birth. That information is preserved, unaltered, in the “vault copy” version of the certificate of live birth.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:38 pm 259. Herb:

Chuck, Keep barking at the moon, bud. If the State of Hawaii says he was born in the state of Hawaii, you should just accept it and not hold out for some kind of more solid proof. If that doesn’t satisfy you, then nothing will, absent witnessing the birth with your own eyes. But even then, I suspect you’d require two forms of ID and a sworn affadavit from the nursing staff.

Obama is a natural born American citizen. He’s our next president. Accept it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:54 pm 260. Ms Attitude:

248. B-Rob:

I got a passport 2 years ago…this was after 9/11, mind you, and I didn’t need my birth certificate.

Dec 5, 2008 - 5:58 pm 261. Ms Attitude:

Dear American People,

Hello. I will not be giving you my real information, as it needs to remain secret – at least until after our plan is enacted. I am a Top Executive at the Democratic National Committee. I can tell you this. What you have have been suspecting is true – Barack Obama was not actually born in Hawaii. The document that we have provided him to show as his birth certificate is not authentic; it was created in our experimental laboratories at the DNC’s World Headquarters in Saudi Arabia. This experimental lab – and, this may be quite shocking – this lab is where Barack Obama himself was also created, almost 48 years ago, as part of PROJECT FLAGBURN.

Yes, we had been trying for years, using the latest technology, to create the perfect candidate to enforce our liberal agenda. In the fall of 1960, we were finally successful, in our ninth try, in using recombinant DNA and artificial insemination to inject our carefully-crafted genetic material into an electronic womb (by bubbling Argon gas through radioactive stem cells). As the BARACK9 grew, we fed it nutrients infused with “Memory Cells” culled from the brainstems of famous left-wingers such as Adlai Stevenson, Bertrand Russell, and Ambrose Bierce – guaranteed to transmit our policies and doctrines into its growing brain. We radioactively stimulated the liberal centers of the brain and implanted radio-controlled microchips into its cerebellum.

Here at the DNC, we detest nationalism, pride, the Christian religion, and our troops. We have decided that a hybrid of Communism and Islam would be a much better system for our country. As BARACK9 grew up, we taught it to have these values as well. When the time was right, we entered it into politics, controlling its brain with our “Brain-Control Device”. We also were responsible for 9/11, the financial crisis, and other key events to ensure that George Bush has a low approval rating. Now, the time has come. Soon BARACK9 will be voted in as the head of the most powerful country on earth. You will soon have a President named Barack Hussein Obama, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. As his first act, Barack Obama will issue the following executive orders:

1. All flags will be replaced with pictures of Barack Obama’s face
2. All personal property and land of registered Republicans will be forfeit to the state
3. All churches, pictures of Jesus Christ, and religious iconography will be destroyed immediately. All mentions of the Christian religion will be punished by death
4. Everybody must wear a turban at all times and pray to Mecca 12 times a day
5. Arabic will now be the official United States language
6. The country will be renamed to The Islamic Communist Republic of Ameristan
7. All white people must issue public apologies to minorities for former misdeeds of their race. The jobs and money of Whites will be offered to blacks, muslims, and atheists as punishment.
8. White women will be offered as brides to black muslim men who get first priority of choosing up to ten wives. Whites will be put into forced labor camps for one year to show them what slavery was like
9. All heterosexuals must issue public apologies to gays and lesbians. In order to increase sensitivity to homosexual issues, they will be incarcerated for one month with a homosexual member of the same sex who is allowed to use them as seen fit.
10. Republicans will be branded with a R on their forehead and must kiss the buttocks of a liberal whenever requested to do so

I am only divulging this because there is nothing which can be done about it at this point. We initially saw Sarah Palin as an immense threat to our cause, but we have launched a huge and successful disinformational smear campaign against her which has neutralized her influences.

Prepare for your new leadership to begin on January 20!
DNC Top Executive “John”

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:01 pm 262. Robert Hurley:

Maybe Obama is doing this just to torture you rightwing nuts. I expect after the SC turns the case down you will all hold your breath until you turn blue. This is all too funny

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:01 pm 263. Ennis:

I have to agree with some of the posters here when they say if there is no problem why hasn’t Obama provided a copy to the courts. He does not have to make it public, all he has to do is just show it to the court-case closed and “troofers” debunked. In fact all he would have to do is show them the bill from the doctor or the hospital and that would be enough under the law.

All the hoops Obama and the Democrats are going through to avoid showing his birth certificate to anyone makes me rather suspicious. Where there is smoke there is fire.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:03 pm 264. robotech master:

Herb please post where the state of hawaii said he was born in hawaii I have never seen them say that.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:03 pm 265. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Obama As President

Obama is a natural born American citizen. He’s our next president. Accept it. — Herb

Not if he isn’t a natural-born citizen as proven by the proper documentation.

RE: Barking Idiots

Keep barking at the moon, bud. — Herb

You go ahead and bark.

Personally? I tend towards silence. Until the time is right…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[There are nights when the wolves are silent, and only the moon howls.]

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:06 pm 266. Aham:

Hmm. Under theories propounded in these comments, it would appear that our first 9 presidents, through William Henry Harrison, were unconstitutional because they were not born in the United States, but in colonies of Britain. There is good legal precedent for believing that the term “natural born” in the Constitution referred to what is called the “jus soli” principle, under which citizenship is based on the “right of soil,” or in other words, the birthplace. Under “jus soli” the children born on U.S. soil to undocumented aliens would be — and are — considered “natural born” U.S. citizens. If Obama was born in Hawaii, he is “natural born” no matter what his father’s citizenship was. If he had wanted to claim his father’s British citizenship under the “jus sanguini” or “right of blood” he probably would have been entitled to do so on reaching his majority, but no affirmative action would be required for him to retain his “natural born” rights to U.S. citizenship. So the whole Obama birth kerfluffle comes down to whether he was born on U.S. soil.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:19 pm 267. Ms Attitude:

I don’t think he’ll ever produce a birth certificate…he’s crooked and knows it because he did teach Constitutional Law.

I agree with a post above that states, “I am more interested in the myriad of applications, forms, documents that one submits throughout a lifetime in Jakarta, traveling to Pakistan or Indonesia, student loans, whereby place of birth, citizenship, travel status and the like may have been submitted for purposes of gaining more favorable treatment.”

For the record: I adopted a child in 1991, the adoption records are sealed, in the court hearing his father and I were given a form to fill out…we got to pick our address, the hospital name, and the doctor’s name. It is signed by a certifier and registrar and looks exactly like his younger brother’s who was born that year.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:27 pm 268. Ms Attitude:

ATTENTION ROBERT HURLEY:

Go read Huffingtonpost.com….your friends are turning on each other. All of the things “the right-wing nuts” foretold are starting to come true–He’s breaking his promises. His “Clinton II” cabinet, his selection of HRC for SOS all goes against everything he promised his followers. How about him backtracking on the windfall tax on big oil? How about him holding off on raising taxes on those that make more than $250K a year? He’s a liar. He has no respect for the Constitution!!! Thank you so much for voting for him!!! NOT!

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:33 pm 269. A.W.:

I think that the fear of an Obama administration comes from the fact he has always been a blank slate. I think it would be hard for anyone to claim they can definitively answer the following question: “When Obama says hope and change, he means changed to ________.” And really I could make a convincing case that the blank will be filled in with anything Bush’s third term, to Chavez’s Venezuala. But the truth is, we just don’t know, although recent appointments raise the hope that it ain’t really going to be very much change after all.

So people are looking for a silver bullet to solve the problem. It won’t come. We have to suffer through 4 years of obama, and either the dems are going to get serious, or they will remind us why they can’t be trusted on national security.

That being said, I still follow the Reagan mantra: trust but verify. So applied here, sure, chances are Obama is qualified to be president. But he should have to prove it before he is sworn in. And if it means teaming up with loony truthers, well, okay. even a broken clock is right two times a day (unless it is digital). But i ain’t gonna hold my breath hoping that by some miracle we can avoid 4 years of obama. and then what will happen? I suppose those electors will probably vote for biden instead. Or maybe hillary. um, are we sure we want to go down this route?

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:37 pm 270. robotech master:

Aham Please review what the constitution says it clearly says the first 9(or so) presidents were legit…

Next the I 100% agree with the “soil” argument which is what most ppl in here that want to see are arguing. The simple fact is their is currently no legal proof of him being born in hawaii… their is lots of info saying he wasn’t and some info saying he was… however their is no legal proof either way. The easiest and quickest legal proof of the “soil” argument is his vault copy birth cert which should have his place of birth on it… be it in hawaii or somewhere else.

Dec 5, 2008 - 6:45 pm 271. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Aham
RE: Heh

Under theories propounded in these comments, it would appear that our first 9 presidents, through William Henry Harrison, were unconstitutional because they were not born in the United States, but in colonies of Britain. — Aham

Are you trying out for a position as a staff attorney on Team Obama?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Bob Herron had better watch out…..

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:06 pm 272. fred:

Please, folks, why do we give that guy Robert Hurley any attention at all? He’s outlived his usefulness and forgotten that the election is over. Is that guy even an American? I suspect he’s a Brit, but I can’t prove it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:12 pm 273. e. nonee moose:

Uhm, don’t you people have more important things to do? If you wonder why the conservative movement is sucking wind right now it’s because you spend too much time on garbage like this and not enough time on issues of substance.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:14 pm 274. cedarford:

81. Jeff Weimer - Thanks for bringing all the legal documents and logically explaining them.
Then coming back repeatedly to provide more citations and explain them to the Truthers. I could have told you, as did Rick Moran, that these people are haters impervious to truth or persuasion based on facts.
No law or evidence, or the common sense tests posited by myself or B-Rob, among others, has the slightest impact on the Truther psychos.

Finally you “get it”:
259. Jeff Weimer:
Wow, I got dirty and you enjoyed it.
I’ll never do that again.

Stick with it, wait for Obama to give you “proof”. Oh, and hold your breath while you’re at it.

When you engage these Truther sorts, ensure you do so to vex them, laugh at them..for you can only expect amusement from their deranged reactions, and never the satisfaction of educating them.

And just as Sarah Palin got great satisfaction and political boost standing up to the Truthers that demanded her son’s birth certificate and gynecological records or “Her Lies could destroy the Vice-Presidency”, Obama and his Team are getting theirs.
The more Palin stood up to Lefty Truthers, the higher her esteem was in “The Base”. Team Obama can expect a similar rallying effect to any slimey attack on his legitimacy to be America’s Elected Leader, and overturn the People’s vote.

As he reaches to the Center, nothing, but nothing, suits Obama’s purposes for boosting him with Leftist supporters better than a howling pack of Right-Wing Truthers also demanding Birth Certificates and “court-validated” evidence rebutting the Secret Kenyan Birth. The more Obama disses and ignores them, and the madder the nutball Truthers get, the better it is politically for him.

Well worth whatever court costs the Truthers inflict…because the longer it stays alive, the more conservative Republicans taint themselves by association with the nutballs. To go back to my analogy of before, stretching out the Truther self-embarassment of themselves in courts is the equivalent of buying your enemies more shovels when you see them digging a hole.

It helps paint conservatives as deranged loons. Few things will be sweeter than an Obama Inauguration where he is talking about recovering the American economy, working to get health insurance to working Americans and the middle class, reducing our international dangers, and working on green energy – to have the press briefly focus on a small mob of wild-eyed fruitloop Truthers dribbling spittle as they demand “proof he isn’t Kenyan, proof communists didn’t pay for his mother to fly against doctors instructions to a dirty village..”

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:19 pm 275. Rashputin:

Robert Hurley – “This is all too funny”

It’s obvious that the progressivolk have been lying when they talk about fearing illegal government actions. I guess the potential for obvious fraud on the part of the same crowd who gave us “Sweetheart Dodd” and “No Problem with Fannie Frank” is just another matter for the propaganda machine to handle. Let’s hope so. Otherwise you could end up with an ecology problem of major proportions, like how long some sorts of trees can go between waterings.

Have a good laugh

Aham – ” … or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution … ”

You missed that part, or ignored it. They were covered as they were citizens at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.

Have a nice day

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:23 pm 276. myth buster:

People ask, “Would SCOTUS really overturn an election if the candidate was ineligible?” They better, or would prefer a military coup? Because that is what is required by law if the President is ineligible, because an ineligible President cannot issue a lawful order. Since the Military is required to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic, the only action consistent with that obligation would be for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of staff to escort an ineligible President from the Oval Office, and recognize the Vice-President as Commander-in-Chief.

If the Vice-President, the Speaker of the House and the President-pro-tem of the Senate are all complicit in this subversion of the Constitution, the only legitimate course of action would be for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs to declare himself to be Commander-in-Chief of the US armed forces, by virtue of being the highest ranking officer when the entire civilian high command is illegitimate (by virtue of being ineligible to serve, refusing to recognize the ineligibility of the man claiming to be President and refusing to step up as the legitimate President as per succession laws, or by being appointed by someone who lacked the authority to appoint them to cabinet or sub-cabinet level positions).

If this course of action were followed, civil war could result, but the law demands it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:26 pm 277. myth buster:

Clarifying robotech, if someone was a citizen when the Constitution was adopted, that person was eligible to be President, but anyone born later must be a natural-born citizen to be eligible.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:29 pm 278. Roger Godby:

There were rumors–and those are often adequate to set things in motion–that President Andrew Jackson wasn’t a natural born citizen. Can we posthumously strip him of his Presidency?

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:41 pm 279. suzy:

I am equally wondering why Obama refuses to produce his birth ceritificate, even though it would put any citizen fears to rest. Oh, wait! “DAVE” and pat J say he’s a citizen. oh, ok, that’s good enough for me. if “dave” says he’s american….NOT!

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:46 pm 280. jason:

Wow, Moran has really drunk the Obamamessiah Koolaid, equating 9/11 conspiracy nuts with those trying to ascertain whether Obama is eligible for the Presidency. Contrary to many who wrote here, a child of ONE U.S. citizen is not automatically a citizen if born outside the U.S., and even a child of TWO U.S. citizens has citizenship from birth but is not a “native born citizen”. If Obama was born outside the U.S. to an American mother he is not eligible, period.

Dec 5, 2008 - 7:53 pm 281. Herb:

robotech master and anyone else interested in facts, rather than mindless speculation:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthcertificate.asp

See, specifically the part where Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, confirms that his birth certificate is valid.

Part of her statement follows:
“There have been numerous requests for Sen. Barack Hussein Obama’s official birth certificate. State law (Hawai‘i Revised Statutes §338-18) prohibits the release of a certified birth certificate to persons who do not have a tangible interest in the vital record,” DOH Director Dr. Chiyome Fukino said.

State officials said Saturday they have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate.

“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said.

Case closed…

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:16 pm 282. Rashputin:

myth buster – “f this course of action were followed, civil war could result, but the law demands it.”

Oh the irony.

Obama holding the public hostage on the Potomac, sure that no one can stop him because black folk will rise up to support him.

By the most traditional of democrat methods, we would be pulled back from the brink of economic hardship. There’d be huge numbers of public service opportunities for the youth, large swaths of outdated infrastructure would be torn down, and the reduction in human exhaled CO2 would offset the increase in industrial activity. Sweet, change is simple after all.

have a nice day

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:21 pm 283. Reg:

This site is such a sad waste of cyberspace. With a nation brought to its knees by eight years of neocon and right wing ideology and mismanagement, you take the trouble to discuss – with some pretense at seriousness – a baseless lawsuit that will never, ever be accepted by the Supreme Court. Ten million Americans are out of work, forty six million have no health coverage, and one in ten is either being foreclosed or behind in a house payment – and this is your concern? Allowing an illiterate, incurious, dry drunk to remain in office after so much horror was not enough. Get over it. It’s a done deal. Live with it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:25 pm 284. ShyAsrai:

This whole “birth certificate mess” is not trivial. Not by any means.

The responsibility for said mess can be laid squarely at the feet of Barak Obama, who has performed major contortions to block release of proof of eligibility – unlike McCain, who readily provided proof of his eligibility upon request.

Eligibility for the office of POTUS, Leader of the Free World, is NOT undeserving of an answer even if arguments against are promulgated by uber-partisans solely for partisan reasons or hatred or paybacks or any other good or rotten reason.

Hating that Obama is the presumed Pres. Elect; furious over the general election; fury over the past 8 years of Bush-whacking – does not mean he is immune from eligibility requirements or the need to answer said challenge.

George Bush was forced to seek a court ruling on whether he would be POTUS; is Obama somehow immune?

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:31 pm 285. robotech master:

Thanks to Rashputin and myth bluster on fixing that was to vague.

As for cedarford… you tucked tail and run after I lit your strawmen on fire… As for your whole Jeff Weimer “did good” bit… in many respects the info he posted helps the pro-show the birth cert/ obama is not a US citizen… not his side. So I’m not sure why you’ll so happy about it… he is in effect debunking his own position…

As for B-Rob being that fact he has zero clue what hes talking about not sure you include him… also the fact he openly admits the only way to legally check obama birth is to review his birth cert…

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:46 pm 286. Jeff Weimer:

re: 275. cedarford:

Unfortunately, it could paint the rest of us as loons, just as the election 2000 and 9/11 truthers. Of course, they got no traction then, and my fellows will get none as well. Don’t worry, we’re not al hung up on this, and have plenty of arguments that have real traction. Ignore us for this at your peril.

Stand by….

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:52 pm 287. goy:

Rick, (and I’m trying really, really hard not to type YOU MORON) the fact that Fukino issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama’s birth certificate and found it to be valid SAYS NOTHING ABOUT WHAT’S ACTUALLY ON THE CERTIFICATE. To boot, in this forum it’s an appeal to authority fallacy (see CP’s comment re: junior high debate).

Here’s the point you’re missing, Moran: if it’s “valid”, as these bureaucrats claimed over a month ago, then what exactly is the problem with releasing the document so that there’s no question in anyone’s mind? Why was the document ordered “sealed”?

Is it not important enough for the entire U.S. Armed Forces – the most dangerous military force known to all of human history – to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Obama is in fact a natural born citizen of the United States, and that any order he may give them as Commander-in-Chief is a lawful and valid one? Because at this point, all they have to go on are Obama’s word (we all know what that’s worth), a re-issued document that looks like a fake (what’s the frequency again, Kenneth?) and a statement by some unelected, unaccountable bureaucrat in Hawaii who doesn’t seem to realize that EVERY U.S. CITIZEN has a “tangible interest” in knowing whether or not Obama is a natural-born citizen of the U.S.

WE HAVE KNOWN the certificate is “valid” ever since Governor Lingle ordered the document sealed. At least that’s what she’s led the world to believe. But here’s the problem: the fact that it’s “valid” says NOTHING about what that certificate shows regarding Obama’s actual place of birth. A “valid” certificate could STILL show that he was actually born in Kenya and that the birth was later registered in Hawaii. Fukino’s statement does NOT address that critical point, which is the crux of the controversy. Is any of this sinking in yet? Or are you still high on accusing fellow conservatives of suffering from some syndrome only you seem to see?

AGAIN – FOR THE CHEAP SEATS: if there’s nothing damning about the vault copy of Obama’s COLB, why create controversy by refusing to release THAT rather than a fake-looking re-issue?

And again, to the real point: you (Rick) have a lot of fracking nerve claiming that someone suffers from “ODS” simply because they demand objective, verifiable proof on what is arguably one of the most important questions of the day. You seem perfectly happy accepting a known liar’s word and some bureaucrat’s irrelevant claim; I’ve seen monkeys at the zoo pick their noses with greater perspicacity.

Dec 5, 2008 - 8:58 pm 288. Jeff Weimer:

275. cedarford:

This is not a problem solely with the left or the right – see those who still haven’t gotten over 2000 – their psychoses lasted this long. That is STILL infecting the political process(has GWB done ANYTHING good? – try Africa and AIDS – even Bob Geldof is ticked off). This is our lame attempt to make his election equivalent, and I am ashamed. We shouldn’t do that, we’ll get more without the crazy-eyed marginally legal “questions” about his citizenship.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:13 pm 289. radtop:

The real reason Obama refuses to produce his birth Certificate is because it shows his father’s religion as Muslim. In Islam, this automatically makes him a Muslim.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:43 pm 290. Mike G in Corvallis:

I agree with Rick Moran’s article, but must still ask one question – Why is Obama and his staff so reluctant to authorize the showing of the original birth certificate? It is Obama and not the Obama Derangement Syndrome (ODS) idiots who are keeping this story alive. If the story could be killed by the simple showing of the birth certificate, why not do it?

I can think of two plausible reasons why Barack Obama might not want the public to see his hospital birth certificate.

Note: I don’t regard the possibility that Obama is not a United States citizen as particularly plausible, but your mileage may vary. If so, I don’t care to spend the time or resources in arguing with you. But good luck in proving your case to someone who matters!

Plausible reason #1: The name on his hospital birth certificate might not be “Barack Obama.” The newspaper announcement does not give his first name. His school records, in Indonesia and in the U.S. through high school, apparently all list his first name as “Barry.” The Certificate of Live Birth for “Barack Obama” proves nothing, either way — this particular COLB is a 21st-century reissue, and it is not uncommon in cases of adoption or other name changes for a state to reissue a COLB with the new name to simplify paperwork. (My own mother changed her first name as a teenager and had a new COLB issued.) Apparently Obama first started calling himself “Barack Obama, Jr.” in college, at a time when he himself says he was searching for authenticity; for all we know being Barack Obama, Jr. also might have made it easier for him to get into Harvard as the son of an alumnus. So why would Obama want to hide the original birth certificate? If it had come out during the campaign that Barack Obama, Jr. was really plain old Barry, it would have deflated his image, wouldn’t it?

Plausible reason #2: He enjoys making his opponents’ heads explode.

The two explanations are not mutually exclusive.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:47 pm 291. pissed:

I think Rick Moran has not done sufficient research on the topic of which he writes. Here is a small sampling to improve his education;

http://www.freerepublic.com/tag/birthcertificate/index

http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=134#comment-8191

http://www.earthfrisk.com/blog/?p=135

http://sites.google.com/site/obamabirth/

http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?page_id=1518

http://www.bloggernews.net/118851

http://news.aol.com/political-machine/2008/12/02/qanda-with-obama-birth-certificate-doubters/

http://www.grassfire.org/111/petition.asp?PID=19020955&NID=1

http://www.conservativeusa.org/megalink.htm

http://countusout.wordpress.com/

http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2008/11/12/obama-not-eligible-us-constitution-tenth-amendment-bill-of-rights-us-supreme-court-federal-judges-state-judges-state-election-officials-electoral-college-electors-philip-j-berg-lawsuit-leo-c/

http://zachjonesishome.wordpress.com/

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/11/16/four-questions-for-the-trojan-candidate/#more-5183

http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/

http://www.newswithviews.com/Vieira/edwin84.htm

http://www.democratic-disaster.com/

http://americamustknow.com/default.aspx

http://drorly.blogspot.com/

http://contrariancommentary.blogspot.com/

http://www.obamacrimes.com/

http://www.theobamafile.com/ObamaLatest.htm

http://f2a.org/coast2coast/obamacitizenship.htm

http://www.therightsideoflife.com/?m=20081204

http://www.peoplespassions.org/

http://www.contrariancommentary.com/community/

http://freedommarch.org/FreedomMarch_Radio.html#Orly_Taitz_Part_1

http://www.f2a.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=aboutus.home

http://www.rallycongress.com/constitutional-qualification/1244/stop-obama-constitutional-crisis/

http://www.howobamagotelected.com/

http://larrysinclair-0926.blogspot.com/

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2136816/posts

http://obambi.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/

http://obacalypse.blogspot.com/

We shouldn’t write off of the top of our heads now should we Rick?
Not Pajama Media quality on this one.
Keep trying…you’ll get it right.

Dec 5, 2008 - 9:58 pm 292. Theravenseldon:

Am I the only one who thinks “Who cares where he was born? His Mom is a citizen”?

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:00 pm 293. Mike G in Corvallis:

Hey, people!

In comment #236, “Herb” may have given you the answer to your prayers:

Do you fit any of the following criteria?

* the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
* the registrant’s spouse;
* the registrant’s parent(s);
* a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
* a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);
* a legal guardian of the registrant;
* a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
* a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
* a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
* adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
* a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
* a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
* a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

No??? Then you have no legal obligation to view Obama’s birth certificate. You’re just going to have to take the authorities’ word for it.

There’s your solution! Barack Obama has a half-brother living in Kenya, allegedly in dire poverty. For a hundred bucks or so, have him sign the paperwork for the request, and we can settle this once and for all!

C’mon, that’s gotta be faster and less expensive than taking the case to the Supreme Court!

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:05 pm 294. Achillea:

Shorter Moran: Calls to produce an easily-obtained legal document to prove Constitutional qualification for leader of the free world are fundamentally equivalent to accusations of a gigantic conspiracy to commit mass murder that have been being debunked by physicists and structural engineers for the past 7 years.

Those must be some mighty fine drugs, Ricky-boy.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:11 pm 295. robotech master:

Herb seriously… like rick moron you have be debunked before you even post… try reading comments 1-50… before you post the same crap that as been debunked. (for the 10,000th time)

To Mike G

It is my view that it could have a number of issues he doesn’t want to talk about…

1. the name change
2. where he was born
3. Loans and grant info present at colleges that could show he “cheated” the system and got money he wasn’t suppose to. And/Or that he reg under that of being a non-US citizen.
4. Provide a name that matches more with records in the countries he visited thus in turn showing… “unpleasant acts” he did in his youth.
5. Failure to register with the selective service.

The end run is this… while it may not prove that he is not able to POTUS it may prove that he has broken a host of laws and would quickly end of in jail…

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:15 pm 296. TMLutas:

For those asking why Obama does not simply produce the document, here’s something to chew on. There’s only so much time, energy, and money out there to oppose Obama. The more that is diverted to blind alley paths, the easier time Obama will have in getting what he wants on issues that actually matter.

If the Obama is not a natural born citizen, he’ll be impeached for his misdemeanor and possibly go to jail over the matter if he falsely swore anything. I’m not holding my breath over it.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:23 pm 297. misanthropicus:

RE #282/Herb: [...] See, specifically the part where Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, confirms that his birth certificate is valid. [...]”
“Therefore, I as Director of Health for the State of Hawai‘i, along with the Registrar of Vital Statistics who has statutory authority to oversee and maintain these type of vital records, have personally seen and verified that the Hawai‘i State Department of Health has Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures,” Fukino said. [...]”

herb, you red herrings purveyor: this is legalese. And what Fukino says is JUST that they have Soetero’s original birth certificate, and nothing else. Certificate which can list Soetero’s place of birth anywhere in the world, from Ushuhaia, to Kenya, to Verhoiansk etc.
herbie, can’t you come with something better? really, you trolls are so unimaginative – errr, disciplined actually, you march in locked step and sing in unison.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:31 pm 298. robotech master:

Maybe TMLutas… Maybe… However I have serious doubts… in fact even if obama was proven beyond any shadow of doubt to have been born in kenya… filed false citizenship to get college benefits… failed to register for the selective service… I highly doubt he will be impeached… at least not well into his term.. the trial will likely not finish until long after he has left office.

Short of civil war(and even highly unlikely in that case) obama will become president… He will also likely finish his term…(in some fashion anyway). He’s already won this isn’t a matter of trying to stop obama its not possible, this is a matter for history and for fixing the damage he will cause… and hopefully to prevent future “obamas” from pulling the same trick.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:44 pm 299. cedarford:

281 Jason – …even a child of TWO U.S. citizens has citizenship from birth but is not a “native born citizen”. If Obama was born outside the U.S. to an American mother he is not eligible, period.
Dec 5, 2008 – 7:53 pm

Funny, I didn’t see a pile of Truther idiots arguing McCain was unfit..

Part of the problem is Truthers remain ignorant that there was no jus solis citizenship for Americans until 1868, 75+ years after the Constitution was adopted. Prior to that it was “jus sanguinis” citizenship of the blood, that counted for being native born, with the Founders Exception written in. And the 14th Amendment had no words extinguishing past “native-born” citizenship solely based on blood, as they added the clause of “born in the states” to give slaves born to non-citizens the right to citizenship (jus solis)…

***************

robotech master – The end run is this… while it may not prove that he is not able to POTUS it may prove that he has broken a host of laws and would quickly end of in jail…

Another Truther moron who thinks crimes must surely exist absent any court “evidence” proving innocence and surely “he would quickly end up in jail,” thanks of course, to crusading Truthers out for “justice”…conveniently disregarding that even if the Truther morons were right, statute of limitations have long ago expired…

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:49 pm 300. misanthropicus:

To REG, Herb, Cedarford, Hurley and all other Soeterotrolls on duty here:

You guys, you keep saying that this discussion is nonsense, that everybody (who’s not on your side) is a loon, etc. etc.
Now explain this – since this is your assessment, why don’t you take your toys and go away? Why do you waste your time and energy on a issue you know so well that it’s doomed and can attract only some nuts’ interest?
Wouldn’t that be the logical action of the monuments of intelligence that you are?
Yet, you keep returning, watching, intervening, trying to stop the coallescence of a trend – so, the the logical conclusion is that… yes, Virgiania, there is a gun, and the barrel is still smoking!
I thank you for enforcing (albeit unwittingly) everybody’s belief that there is indeed something rotten in this Soetero affair.
So, don’t go away, keep circling – we appreciate your energizing support.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:50 pm 301. robotech master:

O poor cedarford…. First I do in fact think that mccain should be rereviewed on his issues….

Its nice how the government is suppose to require evidence of his citizenship status… REQUIRED however you are quick to say his word is good enough… Why is my word not good enough? Truthers like you flee before the light and facts… as well as having your own arguments turn against you… you have failed in every way like your truther friends to submit 1 single piece of proof that obama is legally allowed to be POTUS… on the other hand tons and tons of facts and connections have been made casting massive doubt on obama’s birth status…Run… go play with your global warming and flat eathers friends your factless whines are just taking up space here.

Dec 5, 2008 - 10:57 pm 302. Hankmeister:

In my view, constitutionally, the only burden of proof that must be satisfied falls on Barack Obama, not his critics (us). Enough questions have been raised about Mr. Obama’s birth status that it requires him to produce the bona fides that would put this question to rest. He and only he can do this, “officials” vouching for this or that is pure smokescreen.

Therefore, in the interest of satisfying the constitutional requirement of being “natural born”, Mr. Obama would be prudent and responsible to immediately release his vault Certificate of Live Birth for public inspection. His footdragging brought this upon himself.

And keep in mind, Hawaiian officials have already claimed that the document exists, so I ask, WHY WON’T YOU RELEASE THE DAMN THING FOR PUBLIC INSPECTION, thereby putting this whole question to rest, sir?

BTW, Rick, we aren’t suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome. In fact, I wish this whole issue had never came about, but here we are today, faced with a Presidential candidate who refuses to verify his true birth status vis a vis a bona fide vault certificate of live birth.

We’re not creating a conspiracy out of thin air. We’re only asking that Mr. Obama simply produce a document that is said by certain Hawaiian muckety-mucks to exist that would prove he is constitutional qualified to hold THE HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE LAND. It’s not like he was running for dog catcher, we are talking about a man becoming the President of the most powerful country on the planet that is supposedly a constitutional republic, you know, a land governed by laws and legal documents.

If he can’t or won’t show legal document(s) germane to the constitutional position to which he has been elected, then what does that say about the man? I certainly won’t see him as a “defender of the Constitution” or “my President” until he does so. No sir!

And if one more Obama shill continues ignoring the differences between a naturalized citizen, a U.S. citizen, and a natural-born citizen, then I respectfully suggest they get a refund from whatever school they graduated from because they obviously didn’t get their money’s worth.

Also, for you barrack room lawyers on the left, please note: No legitimate facsimile of an Obama “birth certificate” has been produced that even approximates what nearly 300 million other Americans must have resting in the various county repositories that house such things. If you shills can’t recognize the weasel words of the Hawaiian officials when they merely said they saw Obama’s birth certificate and it was “legitimate”, then I have some oceanview property in Arizona to sell you.

Sure the birth certificate may be “legitimate” in that it is archived within their jurisdiction, possibly even with a Hawaiian seal on it. But as others have already pointed out, it may legitimately say he was born in Kenya and he was one of hundreds of thousands of babies able to get a Hawaiian birth certificate. A U.S. citizen, most probably … natural-born, not proven in the least.

And I bet dollars to donuts those “officials” probably don’t even know what constitutes a “natural born citizen” except to say that the child was born “naturally” and a document of that “natural birth” can be found in their files … somewhere.

Mr. Obama can easily end this whole thing (I’m confident everyone here would be satisfied once the proper forensics was performed on the document in question) by producing that vault birth certificate, you will find your argument won’t be with us “right-wing nutcases” but rather with the Constitution itself.

Unfortunately we can’t look to SCOTUS for any guidance on this issue because they are a bunch of gutless peacocks who care more about the Washington party circuit and legislating from the bench than they do interpreting the Constitution in accordance with the founders’ original intent.

Given Mr. Obama’s and his shill’s pretty clever smoke-and-mirrors routine which has even Mr. Moran bamboozled, the elephant in the room is this: Why has Obama spent over $800,000 to obfuscate this issue of where precisely he was born, what doctor delivered him and in what hospital. Or the possibly exists it might have something to do with what he considers to be embarassing, like his mother not actually being married at the time. But I can’t believe in this day and age the latter scenario would be what’s driving Mr. Obama to not release the actual vault certificate in question and it’s even more whacky to suggest that this is all some calculation on his part to embarass all us “right-wing truthers” who simply want proof of his natural-born status now that he’s stirred the pot beyond the boiling point. Obama and his documented obfuscations are to blame, not us.

Why all the suspense when all he has to do is release his bona fides? After all, he’s ONLY going to be President of the United States for the next four years.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:08 pm 303. Alan Kellogg:

Ah, the bile is running deep this year. Looks like the Ron Paul crowd has found something new to have a tizzy about. Yo, twoofers, you do realize that if Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen of the United States, then neither is John McCain.

BTW, From Title 8,1401 comes . . .

a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 288 of title 22 by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person

Insofar as his mom was 18 at the time of Barack’s birth, and his conception took place in U.S. territory, Barry isn’t just merely American, he’s really most sincerely American.

[snark]neener, neener[/snark]

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:16 pm 304. Alan Kellogg:

robotech master, #301

The problem is not that we’re not presenting evidence you can accept, it’s that we’re not presenting evidence you will accept. Do you post IDist malarky on Pharyngula threads? You sound just like an IDiot.

Read Title 8,1401 of the U.S. Code of Justice sometime. It says what it means, and it means what it says. Post modernism and deconstructionism have nothing to do with the matter.

Or should we just accept you as the liar and fraud you’ve so plainly shown yourself to be.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:25 pm 305. Rachel Peepers:

If it’s inconvient to follow the law, Democrats have a history of ignoring it.

From something as seemingly insignificant as Hillary electioneering last Nov. 4th to serious stuff like two Kennedy’s leaving the scenes of accidents, to a President lying under oath (Bill) to a Presidential candidate not producing an original birth certificate (obviously because there’s something on it he doesn’t want people to see).

However in Barack’s case, when the government was so incompetent by failing to insist Barack produce an original birth certificate, the inaction, from my point of view, amounts to an implied acceptance of Barack’s eligibility, especially this far along in the election process.

As to Rick Moran’s column and arguments, the way I see it, he presented us with butchered logic and perhaps misstatements of facts. On the “where there’s smoke there’s fire” legal theory, early on, Barack should have been forced to produce an original birth certificate.

By the same token, if the Republicans come up with a terrific candidate someday who’s eligibility is questioned which could be cleared up with the production of an original birth certificate, I don’t want any Dems to come crying that a failure to produce affects the candidacy. What’s good for the goose is good for the Republicans.

From now on, the legal requirement to produce an original birth certificate is null and void.
At least that’s Rachel’s legal opinion.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:36 pm 306. Steve Angell:

McCain produced his BC and allowed reporters to handle it to make sure it was authentic and allowed them to bring experts if they wanted. Barack has not done this.

Goldwater was born in AZ before it was a state. This was adjudicated in court where he won because the question is loyalty from birth to the US. Since he was born to American parents in American Arizona Territory he had always had allegiance to America.

I do not question that Barack was born in Hawaii and will assume for this that he was.

Barack fails this natural born test on at least two levels. He was born a British Citizen to a British/Kenyan father. He was adopted by an Indonesian step-father thus an Indonesian citizen. He had an Indonesian passport to move to Hawaii to go to school. He went to college and in 1981 traveled to Indonesia (why? his mom was no longer there and he doesn’t say in his book he visited his step-father). Best guess is he renewed his Indonesian Passport thus asserting Indonesian citizenship renouncing American citizenship by definition. There is no record of him having an American Passport at that time and he could have not gone on to stay three weeks in Pakistan with an American Passport anyway.

There is no indication he registered for Selective Service (except a fake form). But then to he didn’t need to as an Indonesian citizen. When he ran for office he needed a COLB so he either did what many illegals do and got a forgery or he lied and applied for one from Hawaii failing to tell them he renounced his American Citizenship. Of course he could have also immigrated to America fairly easily with an American Mother. Then gotten his Hawaiian BC amended.

Think of this. Barack was adopted by his Step father and lived with him for a dozen years or so mostly in Indonesia. Does that not at least hold out the possibility that he might have some allegiance to Indonesia? At the time Indonesia was very hostile to America and is hostile to us to this day to some extent. Barry could have not attended school there as an American and was registered as an Indonesian Muslim.

The whole purpose of requiring a natural born citizen is to make sure the President has an allegiance only to America. This is so questionable with Barack. He maintained close ties with Kenya and they celebrate him as their American President already creating a Holiday there for him. Is this not allegiance to Kenya is some form? He has maintained ties to Indonesia after living most of his childhood there indicating allegiance there.

I don’t want a President I think has Americans best interest at heart I want one I know does. Just like the writers of the constitution and 14th amendment.

Would we want a King of another country to be our President? NO. Thus the requirement. We also don’t want a man to be President and thinking about any other Country but America.

Dec 5, 2008 - 11:37 pm 307. Rachel Peepers:

On the OJ trial.

Did you notice when the killer tried to get emotional, he couldn’t get himself to weep.

Does anybody know what that reinforces about what many believe OJ is?

The answer is: sociopath, unable to feel significant emotion, especially for others, even for himself.

The guy’s a nutcase, and was such from the moment the sperm sprinted to the unfertilized egg.

Anybody know that he’s functionally illerterate. He can read, but can’t write.

He lives in a purely verbal world. For him to get off scot free after slaughter two people like he does it for a living, was amazing, and gave him feelings of invincibility.

if you come into contact with his world, and in his mind you wronged him, you’re in danger of being kidnapped at the least, and, worst case scenario, in danger of being shot to death.

I predict OJ survives his jail time in Nevada and is out May of 2017. And we never hear from him again until he dies in a firey car crash in California driving off a mountain side road. On purpose? Undoubtedly. Life will become too painful to live.

Did I feel sorry for OJ talking to the judge? Yeah. I did. Didn’t want to but I did.

At the same time, if I was part of the goldman family I’d pay some guard in jail to kill him, cook his intestions and serve some high seasoned spaghetti.
Regards.
Rachel PS
If hurley ever responds to me, please one of your guys, locate him, find, beat him up and put a bullet in his left knee. Then I’ll do something for you. Or have one of my friends do it who need a quick bucks. rachel b

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:01 am 308. sarainitaly:

I really don’t know where or when he was born, but I do care that Obama refuses to reveal his official birth certificate. Full disclosure my a**. I think, we the people, have a right to see this document from ANY person wanting to be POTUS.

And as far as derangement syndrome, this to me seems completely legit – it IS a requirement for the job, after all…

But THIS: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/12/a-fourth-pictur.html ???

That is truly deranged.

Request for proof of eligibility for POTUS, not so much.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:22 am 309. cedarford:

Michelle Malkin noted that the anti-Palin Truthers are back at it, too, this week. One nutball has produced on his website a “fake pregnancy belly” prothesis he found for sale somewhere and demanded that Palin provide her detailed financial records proving conclusively that she bought no such prothesis, and reiterated Truther demands the Palin produce the original “Travis” Birth Certificate.

Yah, it seems so simple…why won’t Palin do what Left wing Truthers demand of her? What is she afraid of? Why not just hand over her gynecological and financial records as demanded? Why not show the Birth Certificate and submit to DNA tests of herself and her baby as Thuthers tried suing for…what is Palin afraid of? Such simple things to do to make the Lefty Truthers happy and even cut down on some of their lawsuits against Palin…

To anyone with more common sense than a syrofoam cup – the answers are quite obvious.

First, Palin will not surrender her privacy to ideological train wrecks trying to blackmail her with how they only wish she “loved the Constitution as they do”, only cared about “rule of law” as much as they do.

And, second, she knows that the more ticked off she makes Andrew Sullivan and his Lefty band of psychopathic Truther assholes, the more America likes her. Nothing endears the Center of America more to a politician than them noting the country has big, big problems they are trying to focus on and they have no time or patience to deal with fringe crackpots pet causes.
The results on Sullivan have been impressive – he is now marginalized and laughed at as an hysterical gay queen who believes in conspiracies. And Palin is lauded for the gumption to stand up to the Truther whack-jobs and basically tell them to f*ck off.

Obama is having the same fun as Palin, but watching Right-Wingers discredit themselves instead.
With any luck he will stretch this out to the Inauguration.
(1)Because Lefties ticked he is going to the Center will rally to him if they see frothing at the mouth Obama-haters trying to de-legitimize the 1st black President.
(2)The more the Truthers go on, the more chance he has of tarnishing conservative Republicans who the Right-Wing Truthers come from, in the eyes of the general public, which detests zealot nutballs. (Especially in high crisis times like now when they expect people to join together in common cause, and are fed up with the Haters).
(3) As long as hating whack-jobs can be spotlighted, it makes everything coming out of Obama’s mouth (and She Murdered Vince Foster!!) Hillary’s mouth sound reasonable by comparison.

**********************
Angell – Barack fails this natural born test on at least two levels. He was born a British Citizen to a British/Kenyan father. He was adopted by an Indonesian step-father thus an Indonesian citizen. He had an Indonesian passport to move to Hawaii to go to school. He went to college and in 1981 traveled to Indonesia (why? his mom was no longer there and he doesn’t say in his book he visited his step-father). Best guess is he renewed his Indonesian Passport thus asserting Indonesian citizenship renouncing American citizenship by definition. There is no record of him having an American Passport at that time and he could have not gone on to stay three weeks in Pakistan with an American Passport anyway

1. Doesn’t matter if one of his parents were of foreign citizenry or what another nation’s law says. He was born here, and his Mom was an American. He meets the jus sanguinis AND jus solis test. He never even thought of himself as British.
2. Doesn’t matter what he did in Indonesia or his parents did. By law, only he can renounce US citizenship after age 18, and he never did.
3. I keep hearing claims he had an Indonesian passport, but no proof. Where are the Truthers flying to Indonesia to see if it is so?
4. He travelled to Indonesia because his mom and half-sister lived there. Except when she was finishing up her PhD and when she was dying of cancer, Obama’s mother lived in Indonesia from 1965 onwards.
5. The Truthers say it was “impossible” to travel to Pakistan as a tourist 25 years ago. Not so. In fact, just 10 years ago a good friend of mine and his wife on tourist visa climbed in the Kush for two months with Pak mountaineers and reported the Paks they met were very friendly, pro-American, and hospitable. Don’t confuse today with the past.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:40 am 310. Ms Attitude:

To REG, Herb, Cedarford, Hurley and et all:

It is important to have a legal document presented as to Obama’s birth. If he’s been in office for any length of time and it is proven that he is not a natural born US citizen, then all of the laws he signed and all of the treaties, etc. that have his name on them will be mute. We will be a country without a leader, anarchy will reign. Different groups will claim the presidency and civil war will more than likely break out. But there’s a part of me that thinks that Obama would want this, because then he could seize power with the blind support of people like you and then be a dictator. Useful Idiots!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:14 am 311. Reggie:

8. Pat J:

What’s this on Newsmax that Obama wants to give a major speech in a Muslim country most likely Cairo after being elected?
————-
Umm. Cairo is a city in Egypt or a town in Illinois. Dumbass.

Dec 4, 2008 – 7:42 pm

The one in Illinois is pronounced “Karo.” Dumbass.

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:48 am 312. Pundit Joe:

I expect about the same percentage of folks that think that the birth certificate issue is productive probably also think Elvis is still alive. The birth certificate obsession makes our side look like ufo alien believing, granola munching, Bigfoot sexin’, nutbars of suffering.

There are so many other more profitable avenues we could pursue instead.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:17 am 313. Ann:

There is something significant illustrated in this whole COLB that is an underlying issue for this, but a major issue for life in these United States of America:

We don’t automatically believe what any bureaucracy or authority says any more for a very good reason–we’ve been lied to so many times.

This is not necessarily a juvenile response to the present situation. It may in fact be a very positive evidence that the faithful and hardworking population is finally beginning to put some energy in to their well-earned skeptcism.

It came as very good news to hubby and I this week that our 16 year old grandson has consciously acknowledged the emotional and physical abuse heaped on him by his biological mother who abandoned him several years ago. Should we now accuse him of being paranoid? Of making things up? No, sir. His fresh anger and demands of HER to account for herself speak of mental health.

So those of you who want to make US the issue–sorry, you got to me way too late. We are not the issue.

The OJ crap isn’t that much different, come to think of it. He skated the first time around, too, because everybody was afraid of being called a racist. Guess what? We’re not going to be intimidated by that any more.

I realize that our refusal to be intimidated by PC threats makes us racists!

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:22 am 314. Connecticut Lawyer:

Moran is right on. I am an active Republican, a campaigner for conservative causes, and I am utterly dismayed by these ridiculous attempts to throw over the election. It’s Obama Derangement Syndrome indeed.

No one here has come close to answering Moran’s question: Why plant a false birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper 47 years ago? Those who insist that someone actually did that – well, can you point us to another example, anywhere, in any newspaper, at any time, of a deliberate false birth announcement? It’s ridiculous, there’s no motive.

This whole event reminds me of the Dan Rather / Bush national guard story. When confronted with conclusive evidence (the typeface of the purported “documents”) of forgery, the true believers just dug their heels in and insisted that they knew it must be authentic because it reflected what they believed to be true. Here the true believers are confronted with conclusive evidence of authenticity (the 47-year-old newspaper announcement) and they are digging their heels in and insisting that what they “know” to be true must be so.

Please stop. You are making fools of yourselves and undermining the conservative movement.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:25 am 315. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: You STILL….

State officials said Saturday they have personally verified that the health department holds Obama’s original birth certificate. — Herb

…throw out that business? When we’ve all known for a LONG time that ’state officials’ have been known to lie through their teeth.

And just yesterday, some ’state official’ was telling US how she had unwittingly accessed Joe the Plumbers child support records and how her ’state official’ boss told her to lie about it.

YOU may be a candidate for Densa. But don’t expect the rest of US to be such.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[My favorite mythical creature, an 'honest politician'.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:46 am 316. beavercleaver:

Moran misses the meaning of fill-in-the-blank Derangement Syndrome. It is based on those who hang onto their false beliefs about a candidate IN SPITE OF definitive evidence to the contrary. Palin Derangement Syndrome (PDS); in spite of verification of her being pregnant, and the impossibility of her daughter being pregnant with Trig in the time frame, PDS people still cling to the belief that she is not Trig’s mother, but his grandmother. That is a Derangement Syndrome.
This is not Obama Derangement Syndrome. Many of us right wingers who do not believe any of the right wing nonsense he mentions in his article are puzzled as to why BHO just does not provide the same information McCain provided and get this silliness done with. It is odd behavior about such an easily debunked notion. BHO, put it out there, get it behind you, and get on to the real business of raising our taxes, confiscating our guns, and killing unborn children.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:54 am 317. Chuck Pelto:

TO: jason, et al.
RE: The Koolaid!

Wow, Moran has really drunk the Obamamessiah Koolaid…. — jason

I think you’re onto something there.

When Rick Moran did his “He Will By My President” bit, he swore he would use his every sinew and blogging wit to challenge him.

However, with the very first and most important item he abdicates that business and instead comes to his support, at the risk of the Constitution.

And, instead of offering factual materials to refute the challenges offered over the birth certificate, he went right for the ad hom. So, at face value, all he was saying in that previous article was all lies and jest.

Thanks for reminding me of that.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. And on further reflection, I do believe I asked Rick some interesting questions about how far he would go in his criticism of The One and what he would do if The One cut him off from the internet for his temerity.

….I seem to recall that a number of those questions became part of ‘the Disappeared’. And that he NEVER answered them.

Now I think I understand why……

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:54 am 318. Mack:

Ok, I agree with you with one exception: the Annenberg Foundation is not ideologically the same as the late Walter Annenberg. They are seperate and distinct entities with quite disperate goals and ideological bents. I know you know that.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:02 am 319. jim123:

Moran sounds like the McCain of journalists. Spit on his allies to placate his enemies.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:04 am 320. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: What To Do

In light of the controversy here and the arguments that support that there is no evidence that has been presented to prove Obama is a natural-born citizen, in the face of the evidence provided that he was born in Kenya….

….there is one thing I think we can do about this matter. I mean something more pro-active than wearing out the internet trying to show these people who have nothing but ad homs to throw at US.

I do not recommend we write to the justices on the Supreme Court. I’m of the opinion that such petitioning makes the judges more political than I care for.

However, I DO RECOMMEND a group we CAN PETITION. We should petition the members of the Electoral College. And in that petition, we should ask them that THEY see a sworn to as bona fide, signed and forensically proven as reliable Hawaiian birth certificate proving he was born in the state of Hawaii on the date given.

And if no such document is given to them for their personal examination, then Obama is NOT made President of the United States.

They meet in Congress on Monday, 15 December 2008.

I’ve already asked my county Party to provide me with the names and contact information of the delegates from my state. I’ve also suggested they contact other county party organizations to provide the same to their membership.

I counsel all who read this and who want to uphold the Constitution of the United States to do the same in your county and state.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:05 am 321. Chuck Pelto:

[All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:05 am 322. Jim in KC:

Dear god, this is funny! The delusional crowd got their asses handed to them over 9/11, RuPaul didn’t get elected POTUS, so now they have to fix their paranoia on yet another stupid thing. How many times do you all have to be proven stupid before it begins to dawn on you that you are, in fact, stupid? Obama is the President. Get used to it or get over it. Your stamping of your tiny little feet and holding your breath until you turn blue isn’t going to do anything except show you to be the spoiled children you are.

WAAAAAA!!!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:16 am 323. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Alan Kellog
RE: Please TRY….

From Title 8,1401 comes . . .

a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions — Alan Kellog

…not to be such a total idiot.

On the one hand, the Panama Canal Zone where McCain was born was considered an ‘outlying possession’, when McCain was born there.

On the other hand, McCain did not win the office of President of the United States, and therefore your alleged ‘point’ is moot.

On the third hand, your ignorance is showing.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Stupid, n., Ignorant and proud of it.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:23 am 324. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: I Don’t Know….

….which is worse.

That Obama refuses to disclose a simple document….

….or all these people who hold the Constitution and the concept of Law to no account.

It could well be the latter, as they appear to be more pernicious and more delusional. Let alone being REALLY ’stupid’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. I blame the vaunted American public education system for giving US this ‘generation of vipers’ in our collective bosom.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:27 am 325. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Connecticut Lawyer
RE: Yeah?

Moran is right on. I am an active Republican, a campaigner for conservative causes, and I am utterly dismayed by these ridiculous attempts to throw over the election. — Connecticut Lawyer

Well…

…you sound like a liar to me.

What’s your REAL name and let me confirm the truthfulness of your claims to being (1) an active Republican, (2) a conservative and (3) a lawyer.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Redundant Term: Criminal Lawyer]

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:30 am 326. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Pundit Joe

….look like ufo alien believing, granola munching, Bigfoot sexin’, nutbars of suffering. — Pundit Joe

He’s projecting. And that business about ‘Bigfoot’ gives one cause to shudder. I suspect that susan’s question to Robert Hurley about a ’significant other’ might be at play with this guy.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Joe’s probably in the same ‘court’ with Connecticut Lawyer…..

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:35 am 327. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. Notice something about these people like Rick Moran, Robert Hurley, Herb and, of late, Pundit Joe?

None of them offer any evidence that stands up to the first brush with reality. And all they end up offering is ad hom insults.

Seriously…..

…these people are projecting when they call the rest of US ‘delusional’.

The REAL problem will begin of none of the departments of government can simply produce the proper document, which has been alleged to exist by ’state officials’ of Hawaii, that put all this to rest.

And the longer it goes on, the worse it will get. Especially if the document DOESN’T exist or DOESN’T prove Obama to be a natural-born citizen.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:45 am 328. Commentary » Blog Archive » Flotsam and Jetsam:

[...] chatter challenging whether President-elect Barack Obama was really born in the U.S. Others have voiced my view: this is nutty stuff brought to us by the crowd (literally in the person of lawyer Phillip [...]

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:08 am 329. B Dubya:

Chuck Pelto wins the thread!
He epitomizes that American Icon, the Rugged Individual. Persistant. I mean really persistant. Argumentative, quick on the offensive. Patton would be proud. All that never equalled federal service, I suppose…
Give it up for Chuck, folks.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:19 am 330. Thinking Person:

Question to those in the know… What happens in the event that after Obama’s coronation in January, the birth certificate shows he was ineligible? What would happen then? It’s scary to even contemplate really. I’m hoping Obama finds the nerve to produce the certificate before the electoral college meets. Not holding my breath though.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:41 am 331. Liberals Need Compassion « ULTIMATE TRUTH:

[...] the case of any terminal malady, no person who genuinely loves will turn their back on the sufferer. Thus, it is imperative that [...]

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:43 am 332. Bill:

I voted for McCain, and I am concerned about what Obama may do for (or to) the country. While the birth certificate controversy is fun and amusing, I am worried about the repercussions if an investigation finds that Obama really was born elsewhere.

1. Joe Biden would be president. Does anyone really want that?

2. There would probably be a rush to pass a constiutional amendment to allow naturalized citizens to become president.

I agree with Rick. Let’s try to keep the Obama Derangement Syndrome out of sight (make it your own personal secret). Use your efforts to be sure that the next election has a different result.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:52 am 333. Chris in Toronto:

Cloward-Piven

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:55 am 334. goy:

to Connecticut “Lawyer”:

Moran is right on. … No one here has come close to answering Moran’s question: Why plant a false birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper 47 years ago?

No. Moran is full of bilious crap. The question you cite is his pathetic straw man. And this article (and his past screeds) is nothing more than a vain attempt to build up his wannabe MSM bona fides by attacking conservatives who demand verifiable, objective proof; proof which – unlike the answer to the 9/11 Truthers’ question – does, in fact, exist in a vault in Hawaii. So his question, driven purely by sibling envy, doesn’t deserve a response.

You missed my post above, apparently – not to mention most of the rest of this thread. You don’t seem to understand the concept of burden of proof, which calls into question the veracity of your handle. However, given your doe-eyed trust in Moran’s fallacious attempts at rationalization and some bureaucrat’s irrelevant thesis, as a reluctant CT resident I can vouch for the fact that you’re probably being honest about the Connecticut bit, and a RINO to boot.

- NO ONE is trying to “throw over” the election.
- No credible skeptic on this issue has asserted that BHO’s COLB isn’t “valid”.

Take ALL of the various Obamas’ actions and statements into account. Realize that BHO is an arrogant narcissist and demonstrated consummate liar. His complete disregard for honesty places him on the antisocial borderline in this regard. Realize also that the entrenched media will never, ever pursue this issue with even 1/100th the zeal they applied in support of Dan Rather’s fake TANG documents – except perhaps to deflect criticism by demonizing those who demand objective, verifiable proof with the ad hominem “9/11 Truther” label (as many have done here). Apply Michelle Obama’s weird and ostensibly false statement about Ann Dunham being “very single” at the time of BHO’s birth (the record of her divorce from Obama Sr. in 1964 contradicts MO’s statement). Mix in BHO’s Kenyan relatives’ reported statements of having witnessed his birth in Mombasa. Note that the laws controlling birth records in Hawaii in 1961 did not require a child to be physically born there in order that a COLB be issued regarding their birth.

Remember that Obama’s candidacy appears to have been accelerated (for some strange reason) by at least 4-8 years. So, seemingly due to lack of time needed to create appropriately plausible explanations, there are numerous gaping holes in his past that have never been mentioned, let alone explored by the entrenched media. The Chicago Annenberg Challenge fiasco. BHO’s professional and political alliance with marxist Billy Ayers and communist Mike Klonsky. BHO’s sealed university records. BHO’s sealed COLB. The list goes on almost endlessly.

Got all that? Now pull out the Occam’s Razor attachment on your handy Swiss Army knife. Start cutting. You’ll find that the most likely scenario – and the simplest explanation for Obama’s dogged refusal to do the ONE THING that would answer this valid question – is as follows:

0. Ann Dunham married BHO’s father in Hawaii in Feb., 1961, in what was very likely a shotgun wedding: she was 3 months preggers at the time. At some point following the wedding – likely the summer following her first semester at UofH – she and BHO Sr. traveled to Kenya to meet his folks.
1. At the ripe old age of 18, Ann Dunham found herself too pregnant to travel back to Hawaii on her own, when BHO Sr. started making noises about not being interested in fatherhood (a stance he made good on the following year when he abandoned her and BHO). Ann (belatedly) realized that she wanted her son to be a U.S. citizen, but it was too late to go back to Hawaii.
2. Ann Dunham gave birth to BHO at Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya – very likely (but as yet only allegedly) on Aug 4, 1961 – just as BHO’s paternal grandmother and other Kenyan relatives have reportedly claimed.
3. As soon as she and her son were fit to travel, Ann Dunham flew to Hawaii.
4. In Hawaii, BHO’s birth was recorded per the laws in effect in 1961. The resulting COLB was – and is – perfectly “valid” in the State of Hawaii. That COLB has since been officially “sealed” by Governor Lingle for undisclosed reasons.
5. As was standard procedure for recorded COLBs in 1961, the record of BHO’s birth was communicated to the office of Vital Statistics and reported – again, through rote procedure – in the Advertiser column erroneously linked by Moran as “proof” that BHO was born in Hawaii.

No harm. No foul. No conspiracy. No “false” birth notice. Nothing whatsoever out of the ordinary. For 1961.

Fast forward to 2008, when BHO’s citizenship is called into question. When this question was raised regarding McCain’s natural-born citizenship, he immediately produced verified documentation to demonstrate his eligibility to be elected POTUS. Whenever this same question has been put to BHO – with far more compelling reasons – he has adamantly refused to do the one thing that would lay the question to rest: produce the vault copy of his COLB in exactly the same way McCain did. The question is “why?” and the answer is almost trivial if the perfectly plausible and innocent scenario above is accurate. If that scenario is even close, then the vault copy likely shows one of three things:

1. It lists no attestation from an attending physician, calling into question the validity of information Dunham provided for the COLB.
2. It lists his birth name as something other than Barack Obama, Jr. – the name which BHO has used throughout his life to garner minority status and credibility where it wasn’t completely warranted.
3. It shows BHO’s country of birth as Kenya, disqualifying him as an eligible candidate for POTUS.

Hopefully this is clear enough for you to understand, CL. Drawing an equivalence between skepticism on this issue and “9/11 Trutherism” is the height of an impotent argument, and it aligns perfectly with Moran’s past editorial exercises at throwing in the towel.

The fact is that the burden of proof for demonstrating eligibility to be elected POTUS under the U.S. Constitution is placed solely on Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. – not FactCheck.org, not DailyKos, not Snopes.com, not the Governor of Hawaii or one of her chosen bureaucrats, not a perfectly valid live birth notice listing that doesn’t identify the place of birth but only the jurisdiction of record, and not the unreliable word of BHO himself.

What makes this issue significant – and more glaringly so with each day that it’s not resolved in a Constitutional manner – is the ease with which it could be resolved. No one can make a valid claim that BHO has made a good faith effort to resolve this, since all that’s required is for him to simply release his sealed COLB.

The question is: why hasn’t he done so?

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:38 am 335. Pundit Joe:

Hi Chuck, I hope you are well, but I think you missed the point of my comment, and perhaps my humor. We don’t have to agree, but I want to make my position clear.

I don’t know for certain if Obama is eligible to hold the office of the president or not, but I‘m reasonably satisfied he is. Some smart folks that have earned my respect, such as Dennis Prager, Hugh Hewitt, and Michael Medved, all seem to think this is an unprofitable avenue to pursue – even if it does turn out that Obama is not a citizen.

Why do I think it is unprofitable?

First, he probably is a citizen. So, all of this hullabaloo will only serve to make many look foolish should this be borne out. Of course, at this point I doubt any proof would be sufficient to change the minds of some.

Second, challenges probably won’t make it through the courts. Seriously, what judge would want to be the one to tell the President-elect and the nation that the fella that solidly won the election cannot hold office? So, in the end, it serves no purpose – we waste a great deal of time, money for no gain.

Third, and perhaps most importantly – Should it be determined that he was not a natural born citizen – what then? We would have to toss out the results of the elction and have yet another election right? McCain won’t become the pres, so another election would be needed and we would be thrown into a huge constitutional crisis. We have to have a president and Bush’s term is up. Would Pelosi become the pres until such time as a special election could be held? I don’t know. Regardless, it would suck.

Most likely, in event Obama were found to not be a ineligible, then the government and the nation would probably simply decide to not enforce the law. Obama won the election and throwing out the results would enrage half of the populace in a way we have not ever seen and many on the conservative side would support the non-enforcement as simply as a way to avoid the chaos that would ensue. So, folks would then openly ignore the constitution.

Lastly, these efforts are extremely bad public relations. They come off as nutty and as sour grapes. And should Obama be declared ineligible for office, then much of the public would interpret such an event as stealing the election. With such a perception, any follow-up special election would undoubtedly result in the election of another Democrat. We would be back where we started, only with lower poll numbers.

So, I return to the point I made in my original post – This avenue is unproductive. It is a waste of our limited resources when there are so many other more profitable things we could do in the advancement of conservative values. We must choose our battles wisely.

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:46 am 336. cfbleachers:

Pundit Joe, I understand your point, I truly do.

I also really hope this turns out to be nothing. But, if you would be so kind as to answer this question.

What if.

What if, the outline presented very articulately by “goy” above, turns out to be the facts on the ground?

What if, President-elect Obama knew the truth, his upper level staff knew, several leading Democrats knew..and they all decided to hide the facts, in clear defiance of the Constitution?

What if, several members of our entrenched media knew and kept it secret in order to advance his election?

Nothing? This was the “will” of the people to knowingly elect someone who KNEW he was ineligible to run (in our hypothetical) and chose to disguise the fact….and our attitude ought to be “well, he ran and won, therefore we shouldn’t do anything”?

Is that really your position?

Because if it is…then, now more than ever…I want to uncover everything. What kind of precedent would it set to allow someone to run for the highest offices in our land and make up their own rules to obey and avoid at their whim? What material facts to disclose and what material facts to suppress? Or do you believe that “whatever you can get away with, as long as you have a conspiratorial media and one party willing to help you cheat…is fair game”?

Is that your position in our hypothetical?

The media in your pocket can alternatively put you on magazines with red eyes and make you look evil and dangerous, can poke into your background with impunity, can FORGE documents about your military service….or it can blockade inquiry into whether you are constitutionally eligible to even run for office…is that what you would like to see in this country?

Again, understand my position outside the hypothetical. I am hoping this is absolutely nothing. But go read the “goy” comment at #336 again. It is the best outline to date on the subject in my opinion. Bar none. Even my own.

IF…and I emphasize the hypothetical nature of my discussion with you again…IF…it’s true, is it your position that there is absolutely nothing that should come of it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:40 am 337. Peter the Sub Guy:

196. Jeff Weimer wrote:
to Peter the Sub Guy from Jeff the Target guy:
Pakistan was an ally during the cold war, it wouldn’t have been impossible to go there, even if it would not necessarily have been safe.

Peter responds:
My understanding of the situation, at the time in question, Pakistan was an ally of the Soviets during the Cold War, and it was actually illegal, not just dangerous, for US citizens to travel to Pakistan at the time in question. Unless you can find me (reliable) proof to the contrary, I must go by what I have read.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:42 am 338. Peter the Sub Guy:

196. Jeff Weimer wrote:
to Peter the Sub Guy from Jeff the Target guy:
Same for Indonesia.

Peter responds:
The issue with Indonesia is not that he traveled there, it is, by his own admission (read The One’s books) that he was a STUDENT there, something you could not do as the laws existed at the time, unless you were a citizen of Indonesia. Look it up.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:44 am 339. Peter the Sub Guy:

202. e. nonee moose wrote:
What more proof do you need? You may as well be challenging John McCain’s American birth.

Peter responds:
McCain’s American birth WAS challenged, by The One’s followers. He immediately provided the proof. Why won’t The One? What, if not a foreign birth, is he hiding?1?

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:50 am 340. BMoon:

Assuming that pursuing Obama’s birth certificate may be “an unprofitable” avenue, and giving the benefit of the doubt to the doubters, it is nevertheless an absurd catapult fling of fancy to compare that question to the vast pandemic phenomena of BDS dementia the Left has spread throughout US culture and media for eight years.

Rick, have you no sense of perception, depth, or balance?

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:53 am 341. Peter the Sub Guy:

208. Jeff Weimer wrote:
same question came up about McCain – he was born in the Panama Canal Zone. He was born to two US Citizens outside the US. It still makes him “Natural Born”, as it pertains to the law and (thus) the Constitution. If you are born a Citizen, you are “Natural Born”, you were never anything else.

Peter replies: Wrong again. McCain was a ‘natural born US citizen’ because he was born on an American military base, sorverign US territory. Not because both his parents were US citizens. He could have been born to two Dominicans, but as long as the birth occurred on a US military base in Panama, he’s still a US natural born citizen.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:57 am 342. Peter the Sub Guy:

213. Herb wrote:
Wow, some of the comments here are hilarious. And not in a good way. Especially the reliable Chuck Pelto.
Is there a raised seal????? Dude…..

Peter replies: Dude, do you even know what a raised seal is? Most official government paperwork is worthless without one.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:00 am 343. Herb:

robotech master: “before you post the same crap that as been debunked.” Uh….what are you talking about, dude? The only thing I’ve seen debunked here is this nonsense that Obama fabricated an identity to take over the United States. Either you don’t know you’re proving that Moran’s thesis of “Obama Derangement Syndrome” or you don’t care.

Misantrhopicus: “you red herrings purveyor: this is legalese. And what Fukino says is JUST that they have Soetero’s original birth certificate, and nothing else.” For one: Who the hell is Soetero? I thought we were talking about Obama. Step outside the conspiracy theory and join us in the real world for a minute.

Fukino actually says this: “Sen. Obama’s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures.” Do you know what “in accordance with state policies and procedures” means??? That it’s legit. That it’s the DEFINITION of legit.

What more do you need?

Also this is funny: “You guys, you keep saying that this discussion is nonsense, that everybody (who’s not on your side) is a loon, etc. etc.”

Everybody who’s not on my side? What side are you talking about? The side that acknowledges that Obama is a natural-born citizen? That’s not a side, dude. This isn’t some kind of political debate.

This is a debate between people who accepts facts, and those who don’t. Obama is an American citizen! He has been his entire life. Why is so hard for you to accept that?

Ms Attitude: “It is important to have a legal document presented as to Obama’s birth.” Yes, it is. And trust me on this one, okay. The guy could not go through life, from school, to a job, to public office, without having that legal document. Perhaps…perhaps a charlatan can slip through 40 some years of car registrations and loan applications and paychecks without that legal document, but it’s very VERY unlikely. So don’t worry about his treaties being “mute,” okay?

Ad finally to Chuck, paranoid without reason, who says: “When we’ve all known for a LONG time that ’state officials’ have been known to lie through their teeth.”

Yes, I suppose it is possible that the “state officials” are indeed lying. They could be “in on it,” so politically warped that a bureaucrat is going to falsify documents, make false statements, and cover up some decades-in-the-making fraud. But before we entertain that suspicion, let’s just assume that the bureacrat is a bureacrat, doing their job, crossing their Ts and dotting their Is. You should try it. You might not hate your country so much.

I love this part, too: “None of them offer any evidence that stands up to the first brush with reality.”

Where’s your evidence, Chucklehead? When presented with official evidence, you say the official is lying. Either you know something you’re not sharing, or you have no idea what you’re talking about! (Put me down for the latter.)

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:09 am 344. Peter the Sub Guy:

225. Jeff Weimer wrote:
Aagh, you all assume he’s born elsewhere, PROVE IT. Without that, you don’t have nothing on which to stand. There’s more, real, legal evidence he was born in Hawaii, and NONE he didn’t (someone posted that another said an unnamed Grandmother SWEARS he was born in Kenya doesn’t meant a darn thing). So prove he didn’t.

Peter responds: We are assuming NOTHING. I’m not stating as fact that The One was born in Kenya, but likewise, I have just as little to no proof that he was born in the US either! That is the WHOLE POINT we’ve been trying to make. Questions have been raised, and these questions could be so easily answered and refuted if he would only show the vault copy of his original Birth Certificate. Yes, there is no proof he’s foreign born, yet show me the proof that he is US born!

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:10 am 345. Peter the Sub Guy:

230. Jeff Weimer wrote:
Ella:
He was unable to renounce, he wasn’t 18.

Peter responds: Then obviously someone of legal stature renounced for him. Either way, same result.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:16 am 346. Dave:

It is disappointing that a PJM blogger would write a piece such as this without doing one speck of research into the actual subject matter.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:21 am 347. Peter the Sub Guy:

236. Herb wrote:
Chuck, The authorities in Hawaii say the birth certificate is legitimate. Why must YOU see a copy of it?

Peter responds: Maybe because politicians have been known to lie? Maybe because those politicians have not given a straight answer? Saying he has a ‘certified certificate’ is not the same as saying he has a ‘certified certificate that states clearly and precisely that The One was born in the State of Hawai’i.’ Maybe because The One has lied or hidden just about everything else pertaining to his life that some people would like this one question cleared up? Is that enough reason for you?

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:21 am 348. Peter the Sub Guy:

236. Herb wrote:
Chuck, Where’s YOUR birth certificate? Why haven’t you made it public?

Peter responds:
A: Chuck hasn’t run or been elected to the highest office in the land, but…
B: I’m sure if he were he would have no problem releasing his Birth Certificate instead of hiring three law firms to block all attempts to make it public, spending millions of dollars to do it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:23 am 349. cedarford:

Goy to CT Lawyer – You don’t seem to understand the concept of burden of proof, which calls into question the veracity of your handle.

Oh, I think he understands “burden of proof” quite well. In the United States, any dickhead can make an accusation. It does not fall legally, though, that the accused has any “burden of proof” unless an official 3rd Party intervenes and states the accusation must be met with evidence. Typically, the burden of proof falls to the accuser.

Goy then presents his conjecture of how The Secret Kenyan Birth happened:

A mismash of a rumored statement of one aunt now becoming something like “several” in the Obama clan “witnessing” the birth..which Goy puts somewhere in Mombasa even though Obama’s village is closer to Nairobi. And his idea of the “logic” behind a poor young woman of modest means travelling to Africa 8 months prenant on a hugely expensive (at the time) air junket, getting “trapped” there, forced to give birth…then of course heading back with infant in tow to “trick” customs and Hawaiian officials into altered official records, fake calls from the hospital on births, etc.

Pure Truther stuff.

**************
Joe Pundit – Nice post. Good illustration of the aftermath of how conservative Republicans would be perceived if we don’t distance ourselves from the Truthers. Either the Right-Wing Truthers lose and look like assholes, or they derail the 2008 Election and create One Ugly Scene in America in the midst of a shattered economy and growing internal and external dangers.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:28 am 350. Peter the Sub Guy:

239. B-Rob wrote:
Let me tell you how I would prove my birthplace. My mom is alive (Dad, sadly, is not) but her mother was at my birth and she died in the mid 1970s. The ob/gyn who delivered me died about 15 years ago from cancer. So how do I prove my place of birth hyp[othetically assuming my mom was dead? Well, I have a birth certificate and there is a birth announcement in my local newspaper. Funny . . . that’s the same thing Obama has . . . .

Peter replies: And I’ll bet you, B-Rob, that your official birth certificate says where, date and time you were born? Probably even the hospital (if you were born in one) and the attending physician. I know mine does. And everyone is pretty sure The One’s does too, but does it say he was born in Hawai’i or Kenya or somewhere else? That is what everyone here (well, maybe not everyone) would like to know.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:29 am 351. robotech master:

To expand on miss Ms Attitude and to answer Pundit Joe.

If Barack is found ineligible any laws or actions by the government can be challenged…Most of all any laws he passed. Not only that but to include any court ruling, any business transactions… Grasp this were not talking millions of law suits… Were talking Billions.

Anyone will be able to legally challenge any action taking during and even after obama leave office. While it is likely many actions will stay(after months of battle in courts) many will however not. Do you understand that the IRS will have to redo 4 years of taxes… that they will have to send refunds to some ppl and charge other ppl more… to include companies/businesses… do you understand what type of mess that will be even if no one files a lawsuit in that mess.

Do you understand that everything all the way done to a speeding ticket could be challenged depending on the laws that obama passing…. Our government will be paralyzed for years maybe decades trying to undo the damage.

You say that they will likely not enforce the law… I would tend to agree with that… however it means that civil war will happen… and the first attacks and arrests made will claim that if obama doesn’t have to obey the law and the highest law at that the Constitution… why do we have to follow petty state or federal laws. Ppl will stop paying taxes and the courts will be so back logged from all the law suits anyway that its unlikely that criminals will be processed fast… which means that they could demand to be released for failure to be given a speedy trial.

This is a serious matter… only a simple minded fool couldn’t see the outcomes should obama even SEEM ineligible… just the hint alone could cause massive problems in the future.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:34 am 352. Peter the Sub Guy:

242. B-Rob wrote:
Oh, that’s right. You said it was not a “birth certificate” . . . but a “record of birth” as if that is different. My bad .

Peter responds:
That is the very point we’re making! IT IS different. Anyone, legal or illegal, could get a record of birth in Hawai’i at the time, perhaps even still today. What has been released doesn not give a LOCATION of birth, HOSPITAL of birth, ATTENDING PHYSICIAN at birth. A certified birth certificate would! Why hasn’t the doctor that deleivered The One come forward and said, ‘Hey, I was there!’ His grandmother apparently did, except inconvieniently she said it happened in Kenya. That is the basis for all this confusion.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:34 am 353. Chuck Pelto:

TO: B Dubya
RE: Gee….

He epitomizes that American Icon, the Rugged Individual. — B Dubya

Thanks.

Persistant. I mean really persistant. — B Dubya

Something referred to as “maintenance of the objective”. Don’t be distracted by diversions such as Rick’s.

Argumentative, quick on the offensive. — B Dubya

True. Something to do with knowing that the logical outcome of defensive warfare is ‘defeat’. So, as Patton would put it, “L’adace! Toujours l’adace!”

Patton would be proud. — B Dubya

Speaking of whom. He was something of an inspiration in my military career. Although I was a gravel agitator, I was always rather ‘offensive’ in my demeanor. Indeed, one senior officer described my sense of ‘tact’ as, “He attacked.” Another said, all that he needed to do was give me general guidance and turn me loose on the objective.

[Note: And you thought I had no ‘sense of humor’.]\

All that never equalled federal service, I suppose…. — B Dubya

Does 27 years wearing the ‘Green’ equate to ‘federal service’?

And you thought I had no ‘sense of humor’.

RE: A Sense of Yuma

Pelto, take a quarter and go make a down payment on a sense of humor.. — B Dubya

Been there. Done that. Got the scars to prove it.

And I’d rather invest the money in that booklet available at Amazon.com on How to Build Your Own Bazooka.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Peace means having a bigger stick than the other guy. -- Tony Stark, Iron Man]

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:48 am 354. Ms Attitude:

316. Connecticut Lawyer: “No one here has come close to answering Moran’s question: Why plant a false birth announcement in a Hawaii newspaper 47 years ago? Those who insist that someone actually did that – well, can you point us to another example, anywhere, in any newspaper, at any time, of a deliberate false birth announcement? It’s ridiculous, there’s no motive.”

I was born over forty years ago in a US Territory, my birth announcement was in my mom’s home town newspaper in GA….The birth announcement in a newspaper is not proof!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:50 am 355. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Cedarford and the Republicans

Good illustration of the aftermath of how conservative Republicans would be perceived if we don’t distance ourselves from the Truthers. — cedarford

If cedarford is, indeed, a Republican, I’d say it looks like there’s going to be a war inside the Party. Especially over this matter.

Why?

Well because my county Party organization is calling for the same evidence of Obama’s status being provided. The secretary has organized a petition drive aimed at the SCOTUS. [Note: AS I stated earlier, I don't think that approach is appropriate.]

However, if cedarford thinks that asking for a simple piece of paper qualifies someone as being a ‘lunatic’, and he claims to be a Republican, there’s certainly going to be some internecine action this coming year.

Whether it brings the Republican Party back to its Reagan-esque roots or turns it into Democrat-Lite we’ll have to see.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Who cares who wins, as long as it's a good puncher. -- Unofficial motto of the British SAS]

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:55 am 356. Herb:

Peter the Sub Guy, Um…you do realize that the Director of Hawaii’s Health Department Dr. Fukino vouches for the validity of Obama’s birth certificate, right? Tell me how this connects logically.

1) Politicians have been known to lie.
2) The Director of Hawaii’s Health Department is lying.

Also, you do realize that legally, the birth certificate can only be released to certain people under certain conditions, right? Let me repeat them for you to dispel you of your ignorance:

* the registrant (the person whom the record is concerned with);
* the registrant’s spouse;
* the registrant’s parent(s);
* a descendant of the registrant (e.g., a child or grandchild);
* a person having a common ancestor with the registrant (e.g., a sibling, grandparent, aunt/uncle, or cousin);
* a legal guardian of the registrant;
* a person or agency acting on behalf of the registrant;
* a personal representative of the registrant’s estate;
* a person whose right to obtain a copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;
* adoptive parents who have filed a petition for adoption and need to determine the death of one or more of the prospective adopted child’s natural or legal parents;
* a person who needs to determine the marital status of a former spouse in order to determine the payment of alimony;
* a person who needs to determine the death of a nonrelated co-owner of property purchased under a joint tenancy agreement; and
* a person who needs a death certificate for the determination of payments under a credit insurance policy.

Do you fit the criteria? No? Then the state has no obligation to release the birth certificate to you. It’s the law.

And sorry, bub, but we still live in a society where even our public figures are entitled to private records. Accept it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:57 am 357. Rashputin:

Pundit Joe – “Lastly, these efforts are extremely bad public relations.”

You’ve got to be kidding. You may like the image of lying in your shallow grave, clawing dirt onto yourself from around the edges, in hopes of getting a grin from those using a backhoe to bury you, but I don’t.

The conservatives and republicans in this country cannot point to a single time that the media treated them even fairly, yet they worry about PR. The last time the media acted even nearly reasonable towards a republican was while Johnson was relying on Everett Dirksen to pass the Civil Rights Act. Since then, the media has never been even handed. This past election cycle they’ve been so obviously actively working for the democrat party that it makes me wonder about the sanity of anyone who worries about “public relations” no matter what the topic. Ask McCain how being cozy with the press works the next time the two of you are sharing a bottle of cheap wine behind the old losers home.

Screw public relations, do the right thing. The right thing in this case (after the gall democrats have shown by running this guy without his records on hand) is to demand that theproof be produced. Period. I hope they have a nice photo of Obama coming out of the womb into the arms of a great big Hawaiian doctor in front of the main Post Office in Honolulu. They still need to be part of the public record.

Have a nice day

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:58 am 358. Ms Attitude:

345. Herb:”The guy could not go through life, from school, to a job, to public office, without having that legal document. Perhaps…perhaps a charlatan can slip through 40 some years of car registrations and loan applications and paychecks without that legal document, but it’s very VERY unlikely. So don’t worry about his treaties being “mute,” okay?”

We have not seen his school records–in the US our K-12 schools are open to anyone including Kenyans…he does not need to be a US citizen to work in the US and he has never presented his birth certificate for any of the public offices he held. as for the car registrations and loan applications and paychecks…hate to break it to you, but you do not need a birth certificate for any of that. You need to wake up!!! Useful Idiot!!!

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:59 am 359. Peter the Sub Guy:

261. Herb wrote:
Chuck, Keep barking at the moon, bud. If the State of Hawaii says he was born in the state of Hawaii, you should just accept it

Peter responds: And once again Herb misses the entire point of this thread. The State of Hawai’i has NOT said Obama was born in Hawai’i. Thay have said he has a valid certificate of live birth on record. COMPLETELY different things. Please show me where ANY government official in Hawai’i has said “Yes, Barack Hussain Obama was born in the State of Hawai’i on…” whatever his birthdate is.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:02 am 360. Peter the Sub Guy:

268. Aham wrote:
Hmm. Under theories propounded in these comments, it would appear that our first 9 presidents, through William Henry Harrison, were unconstitutional because they were not born in the United States, but in colonies of Britain.

Peter replies: Aham needs to read better, because the stated article of the Constitution states the person needs to be a natural born citizen or “A citizen at the time the Contitution is ratified,” making all those first Presidents born in the American colonies legal to become so by the Constitution.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:05 am 361. Ms Attitude:

And another thing Mr. Herb…I have been unable to locate my birth certificate for over 10 years. In that time frame, I attended college, obtained employment at two different locations including the Federal Government. Never once have I been requested to produce my birth certificate. I have a drivers licsence and purchased a home….sooooo, your point would be what????

US Optional Form 612, Application for Federal Employment–Section F, Question 1a. Are you a U.S. Citizen?
I have never been questioned about answering yes on this….but if I ever am I will be contacting Guam to send a certified birth certificate. See how easy it would be for Obama to do the same?…the only difference would be that the Federal Government would terminate me if I didn’t produce it…for not proving that I did not lie on the application!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:12 am 362. Peter the Sub Guy:

283. Herb wrote:
See, specifically the part where Dr. Chiyome Fukino, the director of Hawaii’s Department of Health, confirms that his birth certificate is valid.

Peter (again) responds (in frustration): Valid does not mean it says he was BORN IN HAWAI’I. What part of that are you NOT understanding. Until someone can provide proof that his vault copy birth certificate states he was BORN IN HAWAI’I, he can say all the certificates of live birth are valid from now to perdition and it won’t mean a thing!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:13 am 363. thegr8 1:

Pat J- #8 your IQ is high enough to spell dumb@ass correctly but not high enough to contribute anything intelligent to the conversation. Say it to the wrong person in the wrong place at the wrong time and it may be more detrimental to you.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:20 am 364. Peter the Sub Guy:

294. Theravenseldon wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks “Who cares where he was born? His Mom is a citizen”?

Peter replies: So what you’re saying is you don’t care about what the law says? Just because his mother is/was/will be a US citizen does NOT automatically make her child a ‘natural born citizen’ of the US.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:20 am 365. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: Opening Statements

Hi Chuck, I hope you are well, but I think you missed the point of my comment, and perhaps my humor. We don’t have to agree, but I want to make my position clear. — Pundit Joe

I doubt if I missed your point.

You think anyone who insist on verifying that Obama is indeed a ‘natural-born citizen’ of the United States is a lunatic, believing in ufos and such and a pervert who performs acts of bestiality with hairy creatures of questionable repute.

You were rather concise in your description (above).

If you call that humor, then you should appreciate my humorous response.

So….

….how was it with our shaggy, dirty and probably smelly version of Chewbaca?

Did you get any fleas? Does he ‘bite’?

I don’t know for certain if Obama is eligible to hold the office of the president or not, but I‘m reasonably satisfied he is. Some smart folks that have earned my respect, such as Dennis Prager, Hugh Hewitt, and Michael Medved, all seem to think this is an unprofitable avenue to pursue – even if it does turn out that Obama is not a citizen. — Pundit Joe

You can ASSUME what you want. I prefer facts. And the others can ASSUME too. But in my 58-year sojourn here, I’ve learned a number of harsh lessons about assuming things. Especially important ones. Therefore, I prefer evidence to assumptions.

Here’s a simple test you can do in your own home to prove the value of what you ASSUME.

If you live in a built-up area, i.e., other than rural, I suppose you ASSUME that most people who live in the community with you are peaceable and law-abiding. If you do, they I ask you, “Do you lock the doors of your residence when you are away? Or asleep?”

If you do, then you are not accepting your assumption that most people are peaceable and law-abiding.

So. Go ahead and live up to your assumption. Leave your doors unlocked at night and when you are away.

Otherwise, stop behaving like a total moron, vis-a-vis the Constitution of the United States.

What would you do if Obama WAS inaugurated and it later turned out he was not eligible to be president? Who would you hate more? Obama? Or we who asked for verification?

RE: Unprofitability

Why do I think it is unprofitable? — Pundit Joe

Let’s take it by the numbers…..

First, he probably is a citizen. So, all of this hullabaloo will only serve to make many look foolish should this be borne out. Of course, at this point I doubt any proof would be sufficient to change the minds of some. — Pundit Joe

Prove it. That’s all we ask.

Only a fool would take a politician at their word. Are you such a fool?

As for no proof would suffice. Yeah. Maybe some. But not the majority.

Second, challenges probably won’t make it through the courts. Seriously, what judge would want to be the one to tell the President-elect and the nation that the fella that solidly won the election cannot hold office? So, in the end, it serves no purpose – we waste a great deal of time, money for no gain. — Pundit Joe

If they don’t make it through the courts, that’s VERY bad business. It will be a key indicator that the courts have been suborned. That would mean that more people would loose faith in the enforcement of Law. That would lead to a further break-down in adherence to the Law. That would lead to more force being applied by the government to enforce what Law it could. And we get into a very vicious downward spiral to anarchy and even revolution.

Am I calling for revolution? No. I’m just warning what I’ve noticed of history in my studies. And right now, I’d say we’re at the cusp of slide into the sort of mess that occurred when the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire.

Third, and perhaps most importantly – Should it be determined that he was not a natural born citizen – what then? We would have to toss out the results of the elction and have yet another election right? McCain won’t become the pres, so another election would be needed and we would be thrown into a huge constitutional crisis. We have to have a president and Bush’s term is up. Would Pelosi become the pres until such time as a special election could be held? I don’t know. Regardless, it would suck. — Pundit Joe

What then?

Biden becomes president, as he was elected to be Vice President. Simple. Neh?

We would NOT have to toss the results of the election and have another election. Get a ‘grip’. The Democrats won. I’d rather have a bona fide natural-born citizen of the United States than an illegal alien, if that’s what Obama turns out to be.

How about you?

Most likely, in event Obama were found to not be a ineligible, then the government and the nation would probably simply decide to not enforce the law. Obama won the election and throwing out the results would enrage half of the populace in a way we have not ever seen and many on the conservative side would support the non-enforcement as simply as a way to avoid the chaos that would ensue. So, folks would then openly ignore the constitution. — Pundit Joe

Again, you apparently don’t have much of a grasp of our government organization.

When and where did you graduate from high school? I’m curious as to what they taught you in civics.

Lastly, these efforts are extremely bad public relations. They come off as nutty and as sour grapes. And should Obama be declared ineligible for office, then much of the public would interpret such an event as stealing the election. With such a perception, any follow-up special election would undoubtedly result in the election of another Democrat. We would be back where we started, only with lower poll numbers. — Pundit Joe

Asking for a simple piece of paper is hardly ‘nutty’ nor ‘sour-grapes’. Instead, it’s a simple request that anyone can make. Indeed, anyone could file a Writ of Mandamus about this matter in a court of federal law requiring the government to abide by it’s own regulations and laws.

That’s why I was asking, earlier, what the FEC requires of a potential candidate. Do they require ANY documentation from a candidate for the presidency? If so, what? If none, why not?

Hardly the action of a ‘lunatic’ or ‘pervert’ as you suggested in your earlier comment here.

So, I return to the point I made in my original post – This avenue is unproductive. It is a waste of our limited resources when there are so many other more profitable things we could do in the advancement of conservative values. We must choose our battles wisely. — Pundit Joe

Hardly.

If a valid document is presented, this whole thing will blow over for the vast majority.

If a valid document is not provided, this will grow.

If an invalid document is provided the storm will erupt.

It’s really quite simple.

It may be hard to deal with now. But it will only be much worse if it is not dealt with in accordance to our Laws and the Constitution.

Or do you suggest that those last two items are of no consequence?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A nation of Laws and not of men.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:25 am 366. Peter the Sub Guy:

301. cedarford wrote:
Funny, I didn’t see a pile of Truther idiots arguing McCain was unfit..

Peter responds: Gee, maybe because McCain PROVIDED his birth certificate and everything checked out? Where have you been?

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:25 am 367. goy:

c’ford, read again for comprehension. And lose the snark.

- I think he understands “burden of proof” quite well. In the United States, any dickhead can make an accusation.

Wrong. That’s YOUR straw man. No different from Moran’s demand for an explanation of a “falsified” Advertiser birth listing. That you (willingly?) fail to see this speaks volumes about all the other drivel you post here and which most of us skip over.

Here’s your problem: no one is “accusing” BHO of doing anything other than what he has, in fact, done, which is having failed, utterly, to provide objective, verifiable proof that he’s eligible to serve as President of the United States. The actions of his parents and the circumstances surrounding his birth call that eligibility into question, obviously, or we wouldn’t be having this exchange and poor Moran would have been robbed of yet another chance to pad his wannabe MSM resumé. So the burden of proof is squarely on BHO to produce the necessary documentation, which we know exists. Period.

Your transparent appeal to ridicule doesn’t reflect the scenario I described in the slightest, which of itself is perfectly innocent, perfectly plausible, and perfectly supported by the facts BHO has deigned to release about his past. Epic fail for you. Just like all your other posts. My advice to you: give up. You have nothing of substance whatsoever to add to this or any other discussion.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:30 am 368. Peter the Sub Guy:

311. cedarford wrote:
Yah, it seems so simple…why won’t Palin do what Left wing Truthers demand of her? What is she afraid of? Why not just hand over her gynecological and financial records as demanded? Why not show the Birth Certificate and submit to DNA tests of herself and her baby as Thuthers tried suing for…what is Palin afraid of? Such simple things to do to make the Lefty Truthers happy and even cut down on some of their lawsuits against Palin…

Peter replies: Apples and oranges. Palin doesn’t need to prove she wasn’t pregnant to be qualified for POTUS.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:31 am 369. Peter the Sub Guy:

314. Pundit Joe:
I expect about the same percentage of folks that think that the birth certificate issue is productive probably also think Elvis is still alive. The birth certificate obsession makes our side look like ufo alien

Peter asks: What do a UFO and Obama’s birth certificate have in common? No one has really seen either and have no proof they really exist.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:33 am 370. Dan:

The Certificate of Live Birth documents posted on Mr. Obama’s website http://www.fightthesmears.com, Daily Kos (a pro-Obama blog) and factcheck.org, (a pro-Obama political research group), were found to be altered and forged.

The problem of the pixels: When you have a green patterned document such as this, there should be a lot of green pixels from the background showing up between the letters that appear on the certification. But in this case, instead of green pixels, there are white and grey pixels between the letters, which result when you replace existing text with other text.

There is no second fold line. The pictures show two folds – necessary to fit any COLB into an envelope for mailing, but the document itself shows only one fold. This is another indication of document alteration.

There’s a blurred border. The border has a lower resolution than the rest of the document, which is another indication that it has been altered.

The border is one that is used in 2007 COLBs. As a security measure, Hawaii changes their borders every year. This is when the Obama campaign claims the certificate was obtained. That is fine except for the problem that …

The seal and signature stamp are from a 2008 COLB. As revealed by a process called edging, the Hawaiian seal and signature stamp on the back of the document are revealed to be from the wrong year!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:33 am 371. Peter the Sub Guy:

331. B Dubya wrote:
Chuck Pelto wins the thread!
He epitomizes that American Icon, the Rugged Individual. Persistant. I mean really persistant. Argumentative, quick on the offensive. Patton would be proud. All that never equalled federal service, I suppose…
Give it up for Chuck, folks.

Peter replies: …Thus proving Chuck’s point perfectly. When the left can’t come up with a convincing arguement, when they have no facts to back up their theories, they simply turn to childish name-calling. Give it up for B Dubya (who by his name sound like he wishes he was a great as our current President).

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:43 am 372. Ms Attitude:

An idea: I worked in the Medical Staff office at the county hospital here. The OB/GYN’s wanted to go back to the “old” labor charts. No one could find one…since my son was born in that hospital, we pulled my records and copied my “old” labor chart.

With Obama’s mother being deceased are her medical records public? Can someone go to either one of the hospitals he was born in and get her records? They should be on micro-fiche. The birth of a child would be in her records.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:43 am 373. Peter the Sub Guy:

332. Thinking Person wrote:
Question to those in the know… What happens in the event that after Obama’s coronation in January, the birth certificate shows he was ineligible? What would happen then? It’s scary to even contemplate really. I’m hoping Obama finds the nerve to produce the certificate before the electoral college meets. Not holding my breath though.

Peter writes: We were discussing this very thing at work on Friday, and came to the conclusion that, as the laws exist, the Presidency goes to the runner-up, ie McCain.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:45 am 374. Ms Attitude:

311. cedarford: The proof of the birth of Palin’s son was given when she released ALL of her medical records. Obama never released ALL of his records, or else his medical records from his birth would have been the very last page from the hospital he was born in!!!! Duh…I swear, the more I argue this the dumber these “believers in Obama” seem. Produce the dadgum medical records from his birth hospital or the birth certificate. What is he hiding!!!!!??? He won’t even release his school records….If it smells fishy theres a reason!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:48 am 375. Kathy:

… unproductive… bad public relations… come off as nutty and as sour grapes… enrage half the populace… avoid the chaos… choose battles wisely…

Oh my. The Party is more important than The Truth?

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:49 am 376. Herb:

Peter the Sub Guy: “And once again Herb misses the entire point of this thread.” The entire point of this thread is to discuss some clearly irrational conspiracy theories, which you have apparently bought into with every fiber of your being.

Do you even understand how these processes work? Please tell me why the State of Hawaii would issue a “certificate of live birth” if that birth didn’t occur in the State of Hawaii???

This part was rich:
“Peter (again) responds (in frustration)”
It must indeed be frustrating to grapple with facts, but for the sake of your sanity, I recommend that you never give up the fight.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:52 am 377. Peter the Sub Guy:

358. Herb wrote:
Peter the Sub Guy, Um…you do realize that the Director of Hawaii’s Health Department Dr. Fukino vouches for the validity of Obama’s birth certificate, right?

Peter writes in exasperation: How many times do we all have to write the SAME THING??? The Director stated Obama’s certificate is VALID! That point is NOT in contention. What IS in contention is whether the valid certificate in question states he was born in HAWAI’I or ELSEWHERE? An illegal alien could still have a VALID certificate in Hawai’i, but does it prove that same illegal alien is qualified to be POTUS? GET WITH THE PROGRAM HERE Herb, and stick to the question we’re trying to raise!

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:56 am 378. Peter the Sub Guy:

378. Herb wrote:
Peter the Sub Guy: “And once again Herb misses the entire point of this thread.” The entire point of this thread is to discuss some clearly irrational conspiracy theories, which you have apparently bought into with every fiber of your being.

Peter replies: I have not ‘bought into’ anything. I only state that people have questions and the easiest way to answer those questions would be to release the certificate in question. Most sane people would simply do that. The fact that The One and his mob of Chicago helpers have fought this, blocked all avenues of inquiry, hired three law firms to fight this and spent more money than I will ever hope to see at one time outside of the BoE&P or a Vegas Casino just strikes me that they have something to hide. Maybe it isn’t that he is not a ‘natural born citizen’ but he is hiding SOMETHING!

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:08 pm 379. Peter the Sub Guy:

378. Herb:
Do you even understand how these processes work? Please tell me why the State of Hawaii would issue a “certificate of live birth” if that birth didn’t occur in the State of Hawaii???

Peter writes again: Have you NOT been reading the facts in this thread? Have you not seen where MULTIPLE times it was written that Hawai’ian law allows for the registration of a birth in Hawai’i no matter where that birth may have taken place? Or are you just ignorant on purpose?

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:10 pm 380. Herb:

Peter, clearly you do not have a clear grasp on how these processes work. “An illegal alien could still have a VALID certificate in Hawai’i.” Um…no.

I don’t know how to make this any simpler:

If a person has a VALID birth certificate issued by the State of Hawaii, then that person is NOT an illegal alien.

The State of Hawaii issues “certificates of live birth” for births that occur in Hawaii. (Not Kenya, not Kansas, not Canada….HAWAII.) The State of Hawaii also determines whether the “certificate of live birth” is valid or not.

The State of Hawaii has clearly and undeniably CONFIRMED that Obama’s birth certificate is valid. The question you are trying to raise has been answered.

Obama was born in Hawaii. He’s a natural born citizen. Clearly, he’s eligible for the office to which he was elected.

Next question.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:13 pm 381. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Kathy
RE: TARGET!

Oh my. The Party is more important than The Truth? — Kathy to Pundit Joe

You nailed him!

Based on your succinct analysis, you’ve nailed his approach to politics quite accurately. The Truth, let alone the Law nor the Constitution mean nothing. Just go along to get along.

Your typical example of a weak-kneed, gutless wonder who only cares that nobody disturb his hibernation.

Heck…

….he’s probably REALLY a Democrat, at heart, if not in the eyes of his county clerk/recorder.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Keep up the fire!]

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:15 pm 382. goy:

cfbleachers, thank you for your comments in #338. I’ve tried mightily to keep a level head about this whole thing – to ignore it, in point of fact – but when people like Michelle Malkin, Charles Johnson and (even) Rick Moran decide to go on the offensive against the critical value of verifiable facts – claiming in effect that hearsay, double standards, arguably questionable documents, irrelevant thesis and mob rule should supersede them – something is very, very wrong.

I don’t know if the stress of this last, very long election cycle has simply burned them all out, or what, but the result is frightening.

In all this, what has been most frightening was Tom’s response from elected U.S. Senator Mel Martinez (see above in #192). If this is really an actual response Tom received from Martinez, we are well and truly screwed, regardless whether or not BHO turns out to be a natural born U.S. citizen.

Martinez writes, “[t]he voters have made clear their view that Mr. Obama meets the qualifications,” inferring, by omission, that any inconvenient truths to the contrary should simply be ignored. By conflating a popularity contest (i.e., an election) with actual documentation, Martinez asserts that the voting public can somehow ‘vet’ a presidential candidate simply by voting for him or her – never bothering to note that their vote is contingent upon the assumption that the candidate is, in fact, qualified to run. This is nothing short of replacing critical thought and verifiable fact with mob rule, and it should scare the living crap out of any Florida resident, IMHO.

If that’s the direction our present government wishes to take the rule of law, and the public is simply too stupid, too distracted or too apathetic to notice or care, then there is literally no hope for getting our Republic back on the path our Founders set and, quite honestly, President-Elect BHO is more than welcome to preside over such a society. He is in fact exactly the government such a country deserves.

Many folks posting here – those who find it easier to pursue ridicule rather than fact – exhibit this exact stupidity and/or apathy, and would prefer to let this issue slide (why they feel it’s necessary to post here on the topic, however, mystifies me). To me, Rick Moran represents the nadir of this phenomenon. I’m frankly sick and tired of it. Most of all, I take personal offense at Moran’s unrepentantly self-serving article, which demeans the pursuit of truth and fact by equating it to an hysterical behavior pattern he clearly does not comprehend. Perhaps this will help, but I doubt it.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:18 pm 383. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Just….

….finished an e-mail discussion with a fellow Republican of the County.

What came out of it is the realization that for some strange reason the FEC has been VERY quiet, if not outright silent, on this matter.

I wonder why that is.

One would think that the FEC could have come out with a statement as to whether or not they have seen Obama’s Hawaiian birth certificate and validated it as authentic with the Hawaiian state officials.

But we have absolutely NOTHING, as far as I have heard.

Has anyone here heard ANYTHING from the FEC on this?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Just it because it sounds 'stupid', doesn't mean the government isn't doing it.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:18 pm 384. robotech master:

for herb…. again

[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.

(c) The fee for each application for registration shall be established by rule adopted pursuant to chapter 91. [L 1982, c 182, §1]

Obama could have been born on the moon and have still have a “valid” birth cert.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:27 pm 385. Peter the Sub Guy:

Thank you, robotech master. I wasn’t looking forward to trying to fnd the link again through nearly 400 posts.
~Peter

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:44 pm 386. Peter the Sub Guy:

382. Herb wrote:
Next question.

Peter replies: Okay, next question: If Obama is NOT hiding his place of birth, then what IS he hiding by sealing the certificate behind three law firms and a million dollars in legal battles? Inquiring minds want to know.

Dec 6, 2008 - 12:48 pm 387. CR:

What’s happened to PJM? An admitted internet newbie can post a pro-Obama article that’s so full of BS and ignorance that it’s actually disgusting! Some blogger he is, been on the internet for 4 whole years!

The POTUS eligibility issue has long legs because Obama has thus far refused to prove himself eligible. He spends a million dollars defending himself and stalling, instead of simply taking 5 minutes to release valid documents proving that he’s eligible. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that something is amiss here, and that Obama is not being honest.

The truth will eventually come out. Until then, the only real data I have is that Obama refuses to prove himself eligible, and many people are pursuing the truth in various courts of law.

Dec 6, 2008 - 1:34 pm 388. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Herb and His Ilk

I would guess that after explaining it in plain English so many times and providing factual evidence supporting the explanation, it’s pretty obvious to even the most casual observer that Herb and his sort really don’t care.

And whereas Rick Moran and the like claim that WE are the ones who won’t listen, it is equally obvious that they are ‘projecting’.

It’s really that simple.

Time to start working on more effective avenues and let this evidence speak for itself.

However, I will admit that this discussion has borne interesting fruit. It certainly (1) expanded my understanding of the depraved minds and morals we are dealing with and (2) provided some interesting information to assist in future work relating to this effort.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The wise open their minds, but a fool opens his mouth. And nothing intelligible comes forth. -- CBPelto]

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:09 pm 389. Herb:

Congratulations, robotech master! You found a mechanism by which a child not born in Hawaii can get a birth certificate!

So let’s see…in the scenario you refuse to believe, Obama was born in Hawaii and issued a Hawaiian birth certificate.

In the scenario you love speculating about, Obama was born elsewhere…his mother (the legal parent) submitted proof that she had lived in Hawaii for at least one year…the director of health determined that he/she did not “require any further information or proof of events”…the fee was paid…and the valid birth certificate was issued.

All things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:16 pm 390. Rashputin:

Chuck – “Am I calling for revolution? No. I’m just warning what I’ve noticed of history in my studies. And right now, I’d say we’re at the cusp of slide into the sort of mess that occurred when the Roman Republic became the Roman Empire.”

Those equating a demand that the Constitution be followed with their own lunatic “truthers” opted out of history courses in favor of interpretive dance. You’ll have to explain what the Roman Republic was.

Once the NFL, NBA, and MLB, get a shot at the bailout trough, we will have reached the tipping point.

Regards

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:18 pm 391. Herb:

To Peter:

“If Obama is NOT hiding his place of birth, then what IS he hiding by sealing the certificate behind three law firms and a million dollars in legal battles?”

His privacy. Like I said before, even public figures are entitled to privacy.

Why do I get the feeling that even if you had a state-issue copy of the birth certificate in your hands, you would be arguing about fuzzy margins and font sizes anyway?

I realize that facts cannot convince you. Hopefully you realize that your refusal to believe what is obvious to everyone else makes you look very very foolish.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:20 pm 392. Ms Attitude:

Medical Records, Medical Records, Medical Records!!!!! How can someone get his records from either of the two hospitals he was born in? Either his or his mother’s!!! That would be more proof than a birth certificate.

Herb, how come you don’t have a response to my post 360 and 363? Is it because it flushes all of your proof down the drain?

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:24 pm 393. zanne:

Heck, John Edwards denied and denied his love child. The media ignored it for over a year. The Enquirer finally broke the story and the truth. This issue is not going away. And the Democrats can wish and wish for quiet. But, I hear a roar ahead from the angry average American when they learn the truth.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:33 pm 394. robotech master:

Herb I’m glad you at last have seen the light and now believe obama was born in kenya.(or somewhere other then hawaii) Good for you that at last at least you see some facts.

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:45 pm 395. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rashputin
RE: Explaining the Roman Experience

You’ll have to explain what the Roman Republic was. — Rashputin

That’ll be a trip. Doing what the vaunted American public education system—K-12 and higher—failed to accomplish.

I’d first recommend that they read Livy’s accounts of early Roman history.

Then look at Caesar’s account of his conquest of Gaul. Followed by watching the movies, Spartacus, Fall of the Roman Empire and Gladiator. Wouldn’t hurt to watch Quo Vadis.

Then read Marcus Aurelius and Tacitus.

For the REALLY daring, Gibbon’s account of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

Then, The Giant Book of Roman History to sort of tie it all together, beginning to end.

The point here for US is that we are at a similar cross-roads in our national growth. Akin to the time when the Roman Republic was faced with the challenges of being the most powerful nation on the face of the Earth, while being opposed by another powerful nation, Carthage.

The political situation in Rome deteriorated to where people no longer discussed amongst themselves what was the best course of action to take in order to resolve a crisis or lead the nation. Instead their politics broke down to the sort of ad hom name calling and vitriol that we have seen here from people like vivo, Pundit Joe, Pat J, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum. And therein lies the same path that Rome fell into and never recovered from.

The law became whatever whoever had the Praetorian Guard and the Legions would dictate. The written law was a farce and a joke and only used to murder those who opposed whomever was in power. Never to hold those in power to account for their actions or inactions.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to relive it.]

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:45 pm 396. Chuck Pelto:

TO: zanne, et al.
RE: Indeed

The Enquirer finally broke the story and the truth. This issue is not going away. And the Democrats can wish and wish for quiet. But, I hear a roar ahead from the angry average American when they learn the truth. — zanne

It could well be very ‘messy’. And I have to wonder if the Democrats have already figured that out.

What’s this I hear about 20,000 US military types to be specially trained and available to deal with ‘terrorist’ attacks in the US by 2011?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I would sincerely regret, and which never shall happen whilst I am in office, a military guard around the President. -- Andrew Jackson]

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:48 pm 397. Rashputin:

Herb – “His privacy.”

That is a lame line of it from those who brought out everything they could find about a plumber who dared challenge “The One”. If I needed to know anything about that damn plumber then I have an absolute need to know every detail of Obama’s life from the time he entered the first grade until this very day. It seems you’re all for transparency in government unless there is even a slight chance that it might be a problem for the democrat faithful.

The truth is, you’re defending his actions entirely because you have even more fear of what he’s hiding than do those who are demanding to know. Things like his connections to Muslim donars who paid his way through college because he’s a good Muslim. Things like his being explicitly listed as a citizen of another country rather than there merely being someplace other than Hawaii listed as place of birth. Whether you like it or not, in the eyes of the Islamic world Obama IS a Muslim because his father was a Muslim.

If his birth certificate and college documents agree that he’s a Muslim, you tell me what you think the reaction would be, quite apart from the place of birth issue. I KNOW what the reaction would have been during the primaries and during the election, and I KNOW how millions who voted for him would react. You do as well, and that’s why you claim his privacy rights trump transparency in government and even the Constitution. Whatever way this issue comes out, I fear you wonderful democritters have elected the death of your party and are just a tad too slow to realize it.

have a wonderful day

Dec 6, 2008 - 2:51 pm 398. Herb:

Ms Attitude, I apologize for not responding to you. Frankly I find it hard to believe that you’ve never needed your birth certificate.

Do you have a social security card? A passport? Perhaps you managed to get your drivers license without it, but it’s a requirement for a passport.

And guess what? Obama has an American passport.

Please understand that you are not just accusing Obama of being a lifelong fraud, but you are also saying that our system does not work.

You are saying that official records are suspect. You are saying that intense public scrutiny for YEARS cannot uncover an obvious fraud. You are saying that the electorate is so stupid that they will elect an unvetted foreign national.

And finally, you are saying that the next president of the United States is fundamentally Un-American.

I’m sorry, but that…does…not…track.

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:02 pm 399. Herb:

robotech master, No, I don’t believe that Obama was born anywhere besides Hawaii. I do, however, believe that you are unbelievable. Why do YOU believe Obama was born in Kenya? Because you heard it on the radio?

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:06 pm 400. Peter the Sub Guy:

393. Herb wrote:
I realize that facts cannot convince you. Hopefully you realize that your refusal to believe what is obvious to everyone else makes you look very very foolish.

Peter replies: On the contrary, FACTS would convince me quite easily. But until you provide some, I will go on having these nagging doubts that SOMETHING, whether it is his country of origin or that he lied on his college applications or illegally took financial aid he was not entitled to or a hundred other things will persist. As has been stted her ad infinitum, all it would take is a five minute phone call and this could all be cleared up in minutes.

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:37 pm 401. Peter the Sub Guy:

Having problems with my keyboard. Re-typing my last sentence.

As has been stated here ad infinitum, all it would take is a five minute phone call…

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:42 pm 402. goy:

Herb, you are exhibiting the same lack of critical thinking as the rest of the True Believers® here. It’s possible (at least presently) to get a passport without a birth certificate. I point this out not to assert that this is what BHO did, but to inform you that you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Also, it is not necessary to be a natural born citizen in order to get a passport. One can be a naturalized citizen and qualify. So your assertion has no bearing on BHO’s Article II eligibility for the Office of POTUS.

With those facts in hand, the rest of your sophomoric straw man at #400 breaks down irretrievably.

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:47 pm 403. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Herb & a Lack of Reading Skills Or….

Why do YOU believe Obama was born in Kenya? — Herb

….is it short-term memory loss?

His efforts are all just lies and jest. Otherwise, he’d remember that (1) Obama’s living grandmother, a citizen of Kenya, says she witnessed Obama’s birth in Kenya and (2) nobody has yet to provide a bona fide birth certificate from Hawaii.

That INCLUDES:

[1] The Obama campaign
[2] The Federal Elections Commission
[3] The Hawaiian state government

And even that effort will not serve him to the point where he can actually comprehend.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Don't try teaching a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and annoys the everyone else in the vicinity. And the pig, in this case, seems to enjoy it overly much. -- CBPelto]

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:48 pm 404. Questioner:

Interesting discussion…
Regarding Obama’s “right to privacy”, I am interested in opinions of what, exactly, “public” office means. Forget for a moment any ulterior motive you may have concerning his qualifications for PETUS, and think purely about his eligibility for that public office. We, America, is still a country of laws. If any one of us is allowed to pick-and-choose which laws we will or won’t obey, well…wait until you see MY personal list. Just because the system seemingly failed to properly ascertain Obama’s eligibility is no excuse for his refusal to provide the American people with satisfactory proof of his eligibility. Is he “taking the 5th”, or is he taking us for complacent fools? I remember that Bill Clinton and Cindy McCain we practically forced to submit their personal financial records during the presidential campaigns of Hillary and John. (I do not know if that is a “requirement”.) Bill and Cindy were not running, but they had to submit. I am fairly confident that those submissions were far more voluminous than a single sheet of paper such as an original birth certificate. Just because Obama won does not mean he was, or no longer is, bound by the laws and rules of this country. So much for him being a “uniter”, when lawlessness such as this only further divides Americans. Not to mention faith in our government and especially the judicial system. He needs to come clean. Period.

Now…I just found my tinfoil hat…

What if the child born in Hawaii was stillborn, and Barack was a replacement, sold as an infant by his Kenyan family, to his bereaved “parents”?

Or, what if a young Barack Obama was killed during one of his stays overseas, and an imposter assumed his identity and returned to the US?

Or, what if… Oh well, anything is possible regarding his true identity until we see documented proof.

I wonder if it’s time to change our laws to: A.) Require a DNA test for proof of identity and thus, eligibility, B.) Allow anybody who can fog a mirror hold Presidential office, or C.) Allow foreign or domestic corporations to hold office. Or, D.) any of the following – children, animals, statues, churches, plants, bottles of fingernail polish, etc. Or, E.) go 4 years without a President.

None of the above is really any less absurd than enforcing the current law compelling a candidate to prove their eligibility.

By the way, regarding any government agency’s ability to verify an individual’s identity: I have an identical twin brother, with whom I unknowingly shared a Social Security number up until I was 16 years old or so. Our 1st and 2nd names rhyme, and are different only by their first letters. (Donald Wayne and Ronald Dwayne) So, upon our application for SS cards, somebody at the SSA decided we were the same person, and issued each of us a SS card – at different times and places – with our correct names, but the SAME number. How much fun was that?! Only with an ORIGINAL CERTIFIED BIRTH CERTIFICATE were we able to clear the issue. If I, as a teenager, could solve such a problem, I would think that the President-Elect could/would/should do the same.

I don’t know. Maybe it’s just me…

God Bless America, and I wish each of you have a safe and happy holiday season, and a very Merry Christmas!

Dec 6, 2008 - 3:50 pm 405. robotech master:

herb No, I believe that Obama was born somewhere. I do, Also, believe that you are unbelievable. Why do YOU believe Obama was born in Hawaii?
Because you heard it on the radio?
Because you read it on the libtard blog?
Because you heard a bunch of misleading statement that didn’t say anything but you assume they did?
Because you refuse to seek facts? Because you refuse to seek reality?
Because you are a sucker who could easily have his ID stolen because he knows nothing about how to prove ID in the first place?
Because you’ve seen clearly fake documents?
Because you believe no one could ever fake any kind of document?
Because you believe in magic?
BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD YOU SO?

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:18 pm 406. Herb:

I’d provide further argument here, but I’ll let events do my talking from here on out.

Obama will be the next President of the United States in January. You conspiracy theorists can spend the rest of your lives wondering about the validity of his birth for all I care.

The rest of the world will not need to be so convinced. They’ll be too busy dealing with a little thing called reality.

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:18 pm 407. robotech master:

What I find funny is the fact when obama was running for senate he demanded divorce paper work on enemies…

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/ryan.divorce/

Several Chicago media organizations had sued for release of documents relating to the Ryans’ divorce, saying the public interest outweighed their concerns about privacy and the possible effect on their now 9-year-old son. Friday, a judge in Los Angeles, where their divorce was litigated, agreed to unseal portions of more than 360 pages of documents, although large parts remained blacked out.

let me hit the great quote for herb…

” saying the public interest outweighed their concerns about privacy and the possible effect on their now 9-year-old son.”

So divorce records of a huge public interest… but obama birth cert isn’t… when its required by law that it be reviewed….

“That’s the price of living in a free society and if Mr. Ryan doesn’t like the way it’s spinning, well, then, he’s going to have to spend his time and money” refuting anything that looks bad for him, Schnider said.

Another great quote… here

http://cltv.trb.com/news/nationworld/chi-0403300182mar30,0,1024247.story

So its prefectly ok for ppl to be forced to open up about their divorce records… because it public interest… but not in the case of the ONE… who is legally required(and nothing in these divorce records could make the person legally unable to hold the senate post)….

So once again the HUGE MASSIVE DOUBLE STANDARD…

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:30 pm 408. goy:

TO: Chuck Pelto
RE: I thoroughly enjoy each and every one of your comments!

- It could well be very ‘messy’. And I have to wonder if the Democrats have already figured that out.

Not just the Democrats.

As one distressingly notes in reading United States v. Miller, a game-changer in the RKBA realm, well-known facts that are not actively and specifically brought “within judicial notice” can be – and have been – ignored in support of a federal agenda at the discretion of the court.

As we wrestle with this issue on a relatively obscure site unknown to 99% of America, the SCOTUS has considered or will be considering Berg’s petition for a writ of certiorari and similar cases brought before it.

Imagine their dilemma. Especially given the manner in which the entrenched media began its 24/7 demonization of GWB, the Republicans and conservatives by rewriting the history of the 2000 election as it was happening – when Gore failed to carry his own home state and was thus forced by his ego to attempt a rule change in the vote counting (via the FL Supreme Court).

Despite the fact that the SCOTUS ultimately slapped Gore down on this, and despite the fact that Bush would have won even if they hadn’t, media-induced conventional wisdom is that the election was “stolen” and that GWB was “selected (i.e., by the Supreme Court), not elected”. Note the difference in effect between the two since; that is, the conventional wisdom and the court’s actual decision. The former has overwhelmed the latter. Nowhere has this been more clearly demonstrated than in last month’s election, which was a victory of style and appearance over substance and truth in every way that mattered. Martinez’ frightening commentary above comes to mind here, i.e., whatever the mob decides, goes, though the heavens fall.

So at this moment what might the SCOTUS be considering? They are of course aware of the “evidence” being cited by self-promoting hacks like Rick Moran. They’re also aware that such “facts” can just as easily become more media-induced conventional wisdom if the issue is left unaddressed (by them). Their choice is simple: agree to hear the case or decline without comment.

If they agree to hear the case, this issue immediately grows a set of legs that can no longer be simply ignored by the blind eye of BHO’s media cheerleaders – who’ve invested everything they have, up to and including sacrificing what’s left of their very credibility, in his victory. Ultimately, if it turns out BHO was actually born in Kenya, we have a Constitutional crisis of unprecedented proportions. And of course the SCOTUS will again be scapegoated for whatever outcome results – including the worst case scenario, which I don’t even want to type.

If they decline, the issue will most likely go nowhere, despite the various petitions and any other demands for accountability that arise – all of which the general public will never hear anything about.

Which would you choose?

Regards,

goy

[I am a firm believer in the people. If given the truth, they can be depended upon to meet any national crisis. The great point is to bring them the real facts. - Abraham Lincoln]

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:36 pm 409. Rashputin:

Herb – “They’ll be too busy dealing with a little thing called reality.”

I’m glad to see you were honest enough to phrase that in a way that clearly seperates those who are dealing with reality from yourself.

have a nice delusion

Dec 6, 2008 - 4:48 pm 410. Barry Kearns:

Questioner wrote: “None of the above is really any less absurd than enforcing the current law compelling a candidate to prove their eligibility.”

The reason we’re in this pickle is no such law appears to exist. While there is a constitutional requirement that, to be eligible for the office of the President, some one must be a natural born citizen, no one has ever seen fit to pass a law which vests the responsibility of verifying that eligibility with anyone.

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:06 pm 411. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: The Herbal Approach to Discussion

I’d provide further argument here, but I’ll let events do my talking from here on out. — Herb

Typical.

Having offered silly comments as he has here, and having them destroyed at the first touch of the reality he claims we do not understand….

…he runs away.

Funny….

…I had a similar encounter with another fantasy world individual in my own house last Tuesday. A reception after the city dedicated a monument in our yard to the historic district our house is part of.

The individual was chortling with a gaggle of her fellows about the result of the general election, when I encountered them in the glassed in breezeway leading to the sunroom.

I commented that I hope their pleasure is not turned to ‘buyers remorse’.

One by one, each of the gaggle fled as facts expressed in an effective manner could not be overcome by their insistence that I lived in a ‘fantasy’. Even the most stalwart of their group finally flew off in a huff, being incapable of anything more than what Herb has just done here.

And like her, Herb leaves us…..we should think…..based on his latest comment. Not in victory, but with a parthian shot about what he thinks is ‘reality’. And yet, he is projecting his misconceptions of the world on US.

Such is the nature of those who flee the field of ‘battle’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything. -- Harry S. Truman]

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:25 pm 412. Chuck Pelto:

TO: goy
RE: Heady Thoughts, There

More tomorrow.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. About the ‘Truth’….

What they are telling you could be important. What they are NOT telling you could be vital….

….to making good decisions. — CBPelto

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:33 pm 413. CoolCzech:

I just don’t see why Obama doesn’t make this whole issue/non-issue/whatever go away by simply releasing the copy of the damned birth certificate.

Hawaii says it exists and proves he’s a citizen, so the only reason I can think he doesn’t simply release it is because it shows something deeply embarrassing.

Is Barney Frank Obama’s real mother??

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:38 pm 414. robotech master:

Thats not wholly true Barry Kearns… really it should fall to groups like the FEC and the states… ever state should be required to check… so really all 50 states plus the FEC all should have done overlapping checks all proving eligibility…

All elections are handled by the state and thus it falls to each of the 50(current) state to each check independently of each other if barack is allow to be POTUS…

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:39 pm 415. Pundit Joe:

Boy howdy, I seem to have bothered some folks. Heh heh

I would just like to add this one last comment… Esspecially to the “Screw public relations, do the right thing” people. I AM doing what I think is right!

The time to have made these challenges to his eligibility was BEFORE the election. Yes, I know some folks were poking about with it, but their challenges were unsuccessful.

Ultimately, since the election has already taken place and considering the current state of the union, I believe that pursuing this is irresponsible and only serves to hurt the conservative movement and ultimately the nation.

Take it as a lesson and look into such things earlier so as to avoid any similar issues in the future. Heck, it ain’t as if we didn’t have the time in this election – this season seemed about two solid years.

Also, why didn’t any of Obama’s opponents in the primaries bring this up? They would have loved for anything to knock him out that couldn’t be construed as a personal attack. Perhaps they didn’t bring it up because there was no meat there? He couldn’t have avoided it if Hillary had mentioned it as a concern in a debate when he first started to overtake her in the polls. There were enough Hillary supporters in the press to force the issue.

P.S. Chuck, don’t take things so personally. We ain’t gotta agree to get along. And to answer your question – it was okay. Not as exciting as one might have expected. I tried to take some photos, but dang it – they all came out blurry! LOL

Dec 6, 2008 - 5:55 pm 416. robotech master:

Pundit Jow many of these lawsuits were filed long before the election… short of filing them when a person announces(and being you can announce just a few months before the election… They were filed with lots and lots of time left. You are just throwing another strawman on the pile to try to deflect and blame others.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:02 pm 417. robotech master:

Also not just that but what happens if a write in person won? Should they get a free ride? The election in only 1 process on the way to becoming POTUS… proving Citizenship is another… they are both of equal value… to say that its not a big deal is to say the loser of the election who then seizes pay is legally ok to do that…

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:04 pm 418. Herb:

To Chuck Pelto,

I’m not running away from anything. I have simply concluded that there can be no reasonable argument with irrational people.

So do your victory dance, if you must, and continue to wonder why your type of conservatism…the kind that relies on rampant speculation in the face of established fact…is in decline.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:06 pm 419. Peter the Sub Guy:

417. Pundit Joe wrote:
Ultimately, since the election has already taken place and considering the current state of the union, I believe that pursuing this is irresponsible and only serves to hurt the conservative movement and ultimately the nation.

Peter responds: What you and all the “It’s the past, just let it be…’ crowd don’t seem to realize is; IF (I’m not saying when, just IF) it should ever turn out that The One was not elegible for the post he has been elected to, it opens all sorts of doors that would be very bad for this country. Any laws he signs are null and void. Any treaties he signs are unenforcable. Any order he gives to the military, if carried out, turns into a war crime for those who accepted and carried out the order. I could go on and on, but suffice to say, isn’t it better that all this should come out now, when something can be done (relatively) painlessly than six months, a year, three years from now when it might result in something more than a simple headache?

If people had done their jobs (ie the MSM, the DNC, various government officials) instead of simply worshiping at the alter of The One, we wouldn’t be where we are right now. Joe the Plumber had more of a background check in one week than The One had in nearly TWO YEARS of running or considering running for POTUS. Everyone on the left, including 99 44/100% of the media simply fell in love with Obama and then did everything they could to put him in power except look into his background. Would (and in point HAS) any other candidate since the 1960’s ever run for an office like President without having his/her entire life opened like a book and examined in great detail?

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:07 pm 420. Peter the Sub Guy:

417. Pundit Joe wrote:
Also, why didn’t any of Obama’s opponents in the primaries bring this up? They would have loved for anything to knock him out that couldn’t be construed as a personal attack. Perhaps they didn’t bring it up because there was no meat there? He couldn’t have avoided it if Hillary had mentioned it as a concern in a debate when he first started to overtake her in the polls. There were enough Hillary supporters in the press to force the issue.

Peter asks: Did this issue even come UP during the primaries? Everyone was so interested in Rev Wrong, Rezko, Ayers, etc. I don’t recall any mention of this before the Democratic Convention. Could it be Hillery et-al just assumed he had proven his elegibility by that point and the DNC never bothered to bring it up? After all, it seems like the DNC wanted The One over Hill anyway.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:11 pm 421. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: Joe….

Chuck, don’t take things so personally. — Pundit Joe

….Don’t be such a bozo.

In 1970, I raised my right hand and swore to defend the Constitution of the United States. Even with my very life, if it came to that. In 1975 I reaffirmed that oath from the perspective of an officer in the US Army.

I served in various units and capacities until 1997.

How can I NOT take thinks like this ‘personally’?

But that doesn’t mean I’ve lost my sense of humor. As you and B Dubya may better appreciate now.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I don't approve of political jokes...I've seen too many of them get elected.]

P.S. A proper fisking tomorrow…..

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:18 pm 422. robotech master:

O and heres a jem from another thread….

Posted by rxsid:

F) Without question, the Secretary of State of New Jersey (& possibly other SoS’s) did NOT do their job in making sure the presidential candidates (including Obama) were qualified and eligible to be on their states’ ballot. [This is, in part, the subject of Leo Donofrio's lawsuit.]

Why?

How would the SoS from NJ explain that Roger Calero was on their ballet as a candidate?

Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero isn’t even a U.S. citizen (Naturalized OR Natural Born), yet appeared on NJ’s presidential ballot.

Calero was also allowed on the state ballot in: Delaware, Minnesota, New York and Vermont.

Calero is a permanent resident alien (holding a green card).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B3ger_Calero

So once again to herb and pundit joe clear proof that a alien has run for president….

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:19 pm 423. Smarty:

Every single US citizen has standing to ask to see his birth certificate. Any judge who says otherwise is a tyrant and anyone who dismisses such concerns so easily is a fool.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:37 pm 424. Smarty:

If you are born on foreign soil you have to apply for citizenship. That makes you NOT a natural born citizen.

If you refuse to tell the police where you were the night of a crime, or tell them that you have proof of an alibi but refuse to present that proof (and actually hire lawyers to fight presenting the proof), then the police would call you suspect #1 and arrest you.

So why can Obama behave this way and the accusers are called the ones with the problem?

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:41 pm 425. Gilligan:

I would just like to endorse cedarford’s comment in 11.

” Who is gaining anything positive from a needless, ongoing, time and money-consuming controversy?

Obama and the Democrats, even moderate Republicans.
All who are taking great pleasure in watching the Right Wing damage their already tattered public image by behaving like a pack of hysterical, deranged assholes.”

Obama benefits from conservatives aligning them selves with 9/11 Troofers like Philip Berg. If I were him, I wouldn’t release my birth certificate either just to keep this stupid crap going on as long as possible.

On January 20, 2009 Barak Obama is going to be sworn in as President of the United States. The US Supreme Court is not going to prevent that. After Obama is sworn in as President, he will be Commander in Chief and the US military is going to take orders from him.

I may not be happy about this, I didn’t vote for him but I can accept the reality that he was elected and he will take office. I hope that conservative Republicans can stop obsessing over this useless issue and start doing something useful to get Republicans elected to Congress in 2010.

Dec 6, 2008 - 6:46 pm 426. Kathy:

Herb#393 His privacy?

Use yer loaf man: proof that he meets the constitutional requirements for the job have nothing to do with his personal privacy. If you, Herb, apply for a job which requires a background check, you have to wave-off on ‘privacy’ so they can do the background check itself. You want to keep your privacy an not wave-off? Fine, you refuse to meet the requirements of the job, you don’t get said-job. It’s as simple as that – you can’t have both.

If Obama wants to keep his ‘privacy’, he’s not entitled to the job.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:12 pm 427. misanthropicus:

The US Supreme Court decisuion delay, Barry Soetero’s increasing legal problems & the Soeterotrolls’ desperation

Folks: as you probably know, the US Supreme Court has delayed a pronouncement in the Donofrio case regarding Soetero’s eligibility for presidency and this fact is actually a HUGE PR advancement for the case. All other cases presented in the Friday’s conference were either bounced or accepted, yet the Soetero matter is still in the legal grinder.
And if this doesn’t show to the incredulous that, yes, Virginia, there is a gun and the barrel is still smoking, then… I don’t know.
So, even if the case will be eventually bounced (for whatever reason), the fact that the Supreme Court acted so unusually in not placing it either in the “yes” or “no” box yet, has given enormous credibility to those who rightfully demand evidence about Soetero’s eligibility.

Folks, don’t lose your temper when seeing the aggressive idiocy of all these Soeterotrolls swarming the site – this situation actually shows very much anxiety and I can recall such a cyber assault on PJ only when the Franziskus matter (unfortunately kind of forgotten now) hit the fan – that was a cyber dog-fight!

So, again, the fact that the Supreme Court has delayed a decision in the Soetero matter is a HUGE BLOW to those guys – it means that a few Justices have joined us in having a problem with Soetero’s eligibility.
And if the Donofrio case is bounced, fine – Jericho ain’t fell at the first blare of the horns either.

A last remark: probably you have noticed media’s deafening silence regarding this development – now visualise this: a Supreme Court’s bouncing of the case yesterday!
That sure would have been news – cedarford’s, Hurley’s & Cie impartial input regarding this appreciated.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:16 pm 428. SeanLA:

417. Pundit Joe:
“serves to hurt (snip) ultimately the nation.”
HaHaHAAHAHAHA
so lets get this straight. The president of the USA has illegal family members living there, ignoring their deportation orders BTW, is himself of questionable heritage (illegal) and you think thats fine? and that exposing it is “hurtful to the nation”?
hahha and your taxes go to what? supporting the welfare of illegal aliens, like the presidents family, and what else? supporting banks and other co’s that deal mostly in other countries and what else? The roads in the US suck (a friend has his Honda seriously damaged on 7th ave in NY’s village to name just a recent example of decaying US infrastructure)
at least in most of Europe taxes pay for healthcare, better roads and free TV! In the US you pay for the rest of the worlds benefits and outcasts. I can’t wait until they start releasing gulag detainees into the US!
Helping to make the USA into the 3rd world nation it should be?
Good job Pundit Joe

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:31 pm 429. Malinda:

When the birth certification was posted on the internet, I looked at it and bells and whistles went off. I sensed immediately that it was not the original certificate—–because of my 30 year interest in geneology.

In the 1960’s and especially in 1961 there were no computers being used for official birth documents. Technology was still in the dark ages in 1961.

The copy on the internet that is said to be Obama’s birth certificate is a modern day computerized copy—-has no similarity to an official birth document of the 1960’s.

A birth certificate of 1961 would be laid out with lines with subscripts directing the individual to write or type in the information—using an electronic typewriter—termed ‘old-fashioned’.

There would be numerous facts not given on this net version dated 1991—-see the lower left hand corner of the on-line version date. You would see local addresses, international addresses for Obama, Sr., witnesses, doctors, place of birth of parents——-a mini-biography of the applicants would be visibile.

The question runs deeper than the birth certificate. The question runs to whether or not President Elect Obama’s parents were legally married at the time of his birth—–if not then what are the legal issues regarding his citizenship.

According to early news articles, worldwide, Obama’s father was still married to his Kenyan wife when he met Stanley Ann and beget Obama, Jr.

That raises the question of the legitimacy of the marriage of Stanley Ann Dunham and Barrack Obama, Sr.

If their marriage was not legal under USA law, then it is fair to ask about the status of Obama, Jr.’s legal qualifications as a USA citizen.

The shame of this whole matter is that Democrat President Elect Obama should have been straight forward about these questions when they were first raised in the Democrat Primary in 2007. He was not.

The shame also is, if Obama does not qualify as a USA Citizen no one in the legal system is going to touch this with a ten foot poll—-it’s a snake ready to bite.

Dec 6, 2008 - 7:50 pm 430. YesWeCan:

Why should Obama show his certificate to a bunch of hypocritical nutters? Nothing will convince them that he is an American citizen.

If he shows his certificate they will not beleive it. It’s on the internet for all to see, so if they see it physically why is it going to make any difference. They don’t believe it and made their small minds up about it.

It’s sufficient for Obama to prove it to the government organizations that he has dealings with. If Obama wasn’t a citizen then the FBI and every security service in America would have revealed this.

The ‘evidence’ is there to show and prove he is an American citizen. If these nutters are so sure he isn’t then can they please bring a birth certificate from either Kenya, Russia, Indonesia. Can they please furnish any evidence that Obama was born somewhere else? No they can’t yet they use ‘No evidence’ to try to prove their case.

I feel sorry for sane Republicans who are feeling ashamed that there are people in the Republican party who are blinded by hatred. The silly Democrates learnt their lessen when Hillary didn’t get far in the campaign.

I’m just waiting for someone to say Obama is really Elvis in diguise.

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:46 pm 431. Now here’s some political truth « David Kirkpatrick:

[...] this aspect of politics disgusts you (or better yet, if it appeals to you) go read this entire Pajamas media post from Rick Moran. It’s worth the [...]

Dec 6, 2008 - 8:53 pm 432. zanne:

Gilligan, This isn’t a 9/11 Troofer/conservative/elvis/aliens alive thing. This is citizen concern. We were so busy watching the right hand we forgot to track the left hand of the magic act. Now we want to see if he can repeat the trick again with our eyes on both hands. I bet he can’t.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:12 pm 433. robotech master:

Is their any way to edit/spell check a post once you hit submit?

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:28 pm 434. Herb:

Kathy, No matter how you slice it, even public figures are entitled to privacy. Yes, the president too.

YesWeCan has this right:
“Why should Obama show his certificate to a bunch of hypocritical nutters? Nothing will convince them that he is an American citizen.”

See Pelto, Chuck.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:40 pm 435. cedarford:

Peter the Sub Guy:
301. cedarford wrote:
Funny, I didn’t see a pile of Truther idiots arguing McCain was unfit..
Peter responds: Gee, maybe because McCain PROVIDED his birth certificate and everything checked out? Where have you been?

No, because the Right-Wing Truther idiots railing on Obama were silent on McCain. Now we find out the nutballs also believe McCain was disqualified to be President through his family serving America. As one of the Truther commentors here said:
426. Smarty:
If you are born on foreign soil you have to apply for citizenship. That makes you NOT a natural born citizen.

Wow, way to win over military families, missionary families, and the mostly conservative ExPat families serving America’s vital business interests overseas, Right Wing Truthers!
Truthers claiming to speak for Republicans proudly state that any family working abroad, that has kids over there, has 2nd-class kids that cannot be considered “natural-born”.

My, that will sure boost the Expat and military vote if this is associated not with Truthers, but with what conservative Republicans want to do to screw not just future candidates from such families, but families overwhelmingly conservative and/or Republican.
Ah, that incandescent thinking just blinds me with envy…..

Of course Smarty is also the dolt who believes that refusal to turn over private info to anyone that demands it, without warrant, makes you subject to arrest:

If you refuse to tell the police where you were the night of a crime, or tell them that you have proof of an alibi but refuse to present that proof (and actually hire lawyers to fight presenting the proof), then the police would call you suspect #1 and arrest you.

So why can Obama behave this way and the accusers are called the ones with the problem?

Umm, because *cough,cough* “Smarty” – a private citizen or a public one has no obligation to bow before the demands of another person , even a “high and mighty government agent” – and release private info unless under force of law. “F*ck Off! is always an excellent response for those of us that believe in personal freedoms.
Absent other evidence, cops cannot arrest someone for a crime simply because they refuse to talk to the cops, or refuse to talk on the advice of legal counsel.
Now if accusers had something to go on, positive evidence like a trail of blood and body parts leading to the home of the person refusing to answer their questions, then a warrant or arrest is more probable.
Just as it would be if Truthers had some evidence of the Secret Kenyan Birth like Kenyan birth records, microfilm copy showing a birth in August 1961 of a boy named “Barack” to Ann& Barack Obama Sr in Mombasa, Watusi, whatever. (And sorry, but an 80-year old aunt selling 45-year old stories to an entertainment reporter offering money for anyone who claims to have a “recollection of encountering Obama” does not count for anything.)
The Truthers have produced no evidence requiring the FEC to rethink Obama being a qualified US citizen.
Nor can they arrest Obama for not kow towing to their demands, nor arrest him and his Team for milking the derangement of the Truthers as long as possible and try to use PR to claim it is a “mainstream” conservative Republican thing of nutballs and sore losers.

***************
As a sidenote, the 80+ CHuck Pelto posts sort of confirm Rick Moran’s point about Obama haters, hating him even more after winning the election – acting in an obsessive deranged Truther way.

Dec 6, 2008 - 9:55 pm 436. Jack:

Malinda you’re an idiot. You actually think when you request a copy of your birth certificate that you get a beat up, yellowed, aged looking document. No, you get a modern day copy that is then certified based on the info in the data base you nutjob. I got a copy of mine a couple years ago, it looks nothing like the copy I got when I went to the Navy years ago. We live in modern society you know. Computers run everything, so why wouldn’t it be a computer generated document? You Republican losers need to get lives, b4 you go insane, or is it too late?

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:01 pm 437. cedarford:

Wish this had preview. Here’s a better one with the “bold tag” correctly closed.

Peter the Sub Guy:
301. cedarford wrote:
Funny, I didn’t see a pile of Truther idiots arguing McCain was unfit..
Peter responds: Gee, maybe because McCain PROVIDED his birth certificate and everything checked out? Where have you been?

No, because the Right-Wing Truther idiots railing on Obama were silent on McCain. Now we find out the nutballs also believe McCain was disqualified to be President through his family serving America. As one of the Truther commentors here said:
426. Smarty:
If you are born on foreign soil you have to apply for citizenship. That makes you NOT a natural born citizen.

Wow, way to win over military families, missionary families, and the mostly conservative ExPat families serving America’s vital business interests overseas, Right Wing Truthers!
Truthers claiming to speak for Republicans proudly state that any family working abroad, that has kids over there, has 2nd-class kids that cannot be considered “natural-born”.

My, that will sure boost the Expat and military vote if this is associated not with Truthers, but with what conservative Republicans want to do to screw not just future candidates from such families, but families overwhelmingly conservative and/or Republican.
Ah, that incandescent thinking just blinds me with envy…..

Of course Smarty is also the dolt who believes that refusal to turn over private info to anyone that demands it, without warrant, makes you subject to arrest:

If you refuse to tell the police where you were the night of a crime, or tell them that you have proof of an alibi but refuse to present that proof (and actually hire lawyers to fight presenting the proof), then the police would call you suspect #1 and arrest you.

So why can Obama behave this way and the accusers are called the ones with the problem?

Umm, because *cough,cough* “Smarty” – a private citizen or a public one has no obligation to bow before the demands of another person , even a “high and mighty government agent” – and release private info unless under force of law. “F*ck Off! is always an excellent response for those of us that believe in personal freedoms.
Absent other evidence, cops cannot arrest someone for a crime simply because they refuse to talk to the cops, or refuse to talk on the advice of legal counsel.
Now if accusers had something to go on, positive evidence like a trail of blood and body parts leading to the home of the person refusing to answer their questions, then a warrant or arrest is more probable.
Just as it would be if Truthers had some evidence of the Secret Kenyan Birth like Kenyan birth records, microfilm copy showing a birth in August 1961 of a boy named “Barack” to Ann& Barack Obama Sr in Mombasa, Watusi, whatever. (And sorry, but an 80-year old aunt selling 45-year old stories to an entertainment reporter offering money for anyone who claims to have a “recollection of encountering Obama” does not count for anything.)
The Truthers have produced no evidence requiring the FEC to rethink Obama being a qualified US citizen.
Nor can they arrest Obama for not kow towing to their demands, nor arrest him and his Team for milking the derangement of the Truthers as long as possible and try to use PR to claim it is a “mainstream” conservative Republican thing of nutballs and sore losers.

***************
As a sidenote, the 80+ CHuck Pelto posts sort of confirm Rick Moran’s point about Obama haters, hating him even more after winning the election – acting in an obsessive deranged Truther way.

Dec 6, 2008 - 10:02 pm 438. goy:

Gilligan:

- I hope that conservative Republicans can stop obsessing over this useless issue and start doing something useful to get Republicans elected to Congress in 2010.

Gilligan, I’m curious: other than the relative few individuals who’ve filed lawsuits, who do you think is “obsessing” over this issue? The GOP has no part in pursuing it (as noted above). Neither has the President. Neither has John McCain. The Conservative movement in general – actively addressing the failures of the GOP and thinking about ways to correct them – isn’t pursuing it. What resources are being dedicated to this issue – other than Obama’s army of attorneys and a few web pages at WND and elsewhere – that ought to be applied differently, in your view?

The fact is that Moran’s self-serving article is making a much bigger deal out of this – at least in terms of who’s actually pursuing it – than it really is. Based on the misrepresentation of facts and logic in his article and comment, one is led to believe that he’s written it just so he can be one of the first right-of-center bloggers to sing the “Obama Derangement Syndrome” song – certainly a feather in the cap of any wannabe MSM hack.

What I personally find offensive is Moran’s use of this public soapbox to float a vile assertion that a person is a “loon” and a “tin foil hatter” if they don’t accept what he deems to be “incontrovertible evidence” and/or don’t agree with his faulty rationalizations based on irrelevant claims made by unelected bureaucrats. According to Moran, those who don’t agree with his position suffer from derangement. Psychological projection at its finest.

The cause of Moran’s sad failure to emulate Charles Krauthammer is simple. BDS was – and still is – an observable phenomenon, even though the good Doctor K. was being somewhat less than half serious when he originally wrote about it. It is a destructive phenomenon which has caused a measurable degradation of our country’s ability to function politically, exhibited by those who fantasize that George W. Bush is the cause of all that’s “wrong” with America.

But what Moran has chosen to label “ODS” – in this case, at least – involves nothing more than making a simple observation about known facts: there are questions surrounding the circumstances of BHO’s birth and citizenship, and BHO has never publicly released objectively verifiable proof of his eligibility to serve in the Office of the POTUS. In fact, BHO has gone to virtually herculean lengths to avoid making that documentation public, and seems to expect the application of a double standard as compared to John McCain’s actions in this regard. Moran’s insulting “diagnosis” fails simply because it’s not deranged to observe and comment on known facts, much less to expect that they be resolved Constitutionally.

———————

NoYouCan’t:

- Why should Obama show his certificate …
Because Article II of the U.S. Constitution requires that the Office of the President be filled by a natural born citizen of the U.S. To date, BHO has never publicly released any objectively verifiable proof that he qualifies. The same question was put to McCain and he responded immediately with the same documentation that BHO is hiding.

- Nothing will convince them that he is an American citizen.
That’s your uninformed opinion. And you meant to write “natural born citizen”, since that’s the point in question.

- If he shows his certificate they will not beleive it.
Again, that’s your uninformed opinion.

- It’s on the internet for all to see, …
No, it’s not. The original copy of his Certificate of Live Birth (aka COLB) has been sealed by the Governor of Hawaii for undisclosed reasons. The digital image you’re referring to is not the original COLB and not a facsimile of the COLB. It is very likely a forgery. If it’s not, no one has as yet explained its inconsistencies.

- It’s sufficient for Obama to prove it to the government organizations that he has dealings with.
Even if that statement were true, there’s no evidence that he’s done that.

- If Obama wasn’t a citizen then the FBI and every security service in America would have revealed this.
Based on what? Your intuition? Get out more. Look up Earl Pitts, Richard Miller and Robert Hanssen. All of them perpetrated frauds on U.S. security services for years or decades – without the overwhelming assistance of the entrenched media – before they were discovered.

- The ‘evidence’ is there to show and prove he is an American citizen.
Is there some dispute over whether or not he’s an American citizen? The question is whether or not he’s a natural born citizen, which is different. That you keep getting this wrong indicates that you don’t understand the controlling Constitutional law.

- If these nutters are so sure he isn’t then can they please bring a birth certificate from either Kenya, …
No one is sure of anything. And that’s precisely because BHO refuses to do the one thing that will end this controversy immediately: simply release the sealed COLB. Assuming the COLB doesn’t disqualify him, there is no conceivable reason for him not to do this. It’s a Constitutional requirement. What part of that do you not understand?

- Can they please furnish any evidence that Obama was born somewhere else? No they can’t yet they use ‘No evidence’ to try to prove their case.
You don’t understand the process here. BHO needs to provide proof that he’s qualified, i.e., a natural born citizen. The burden of proof is on him, not those who simply point out that he’s never provided that proof.

- I feel sorry for sane Republicans who are feeling ashamed that there are people in the Republican party who are blinded by hatred.
Of course you do dear. Even though you fail to realize that it isn’t necessary to ‘hate’ in order to demand that BHO be held to the same standard as John McCain.

- I’m just waiting for someone to say Obama is really Elvis in diguise.
Too late for that. He’s already been declared The One, by The O.

Dec 6, 2008 - 11:26 pm 439. Rashputin:

YesWeCan – “The silly Democrates learnt their lessen when Hillary didn’t get far in the campaign.”

Revisionist history so soon? As a matter of fact, it was the very same people you claim to have taught a lesson that championed Obama early, covered his butt after every screw-up, voted corpses on his behalf, and got their boy elected. The only lesson they’ve learned is that Obama is busy betraying them.

You don’t really think the same people who spent the past eight years freaking out are just going to bend over and pick the soap up, do you? They’ve been badly betrayed and you don’t even realize who’s really behind this first little tiff, do you? It’s amazing how long the democrap brainwashed crowd can stare something in the face and still not see it.

Have a nice fantasy filled day

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:17 am 440. DC Bateman:

Look at it this way. He IS an American citizen. There ARE witnesses. Hawaii was a new US State, his mother was a citizen, so that makes him one of us . His father was a BRITISH subject, Kenya not yet independent, and that should lessen the blow. Now, according to Jewish law, and a lot of other cultures in the world,he is whatever his mother’s mother’s mother was, and its a good chance he’s English . Islam is not like herpes, you can be exposed to it and not catch it for life. How many Mormon kids or Catholic kids ran from those faiths just as fast as they could once they got the chance, so even if Daddy was one and tried to expose him to it does not mean he was irradiated and is a walking time bomb. No pun intended, but I think I just made a funny. He is a shrewed , talented politician who rose playing on his skin tone in a district that would have rejected him if he looked too pale, be honest. Catering to the audience is politics. Only time will tell what he has in mind. I was talking with some Black ladies whom I work with, we are teachers, and we decided that this should put to rest the propoganda of the Left that America is a racist rat hole and no black face could ever get elected nationally. Hells bells, to the highest position of all! He sho enough didn’t get it on just Black voters, and a lot of Hispanics, especially of Mexican ancestry, loathe Blacks and despite what the media tells you didn’t vote for HIM. They may have voted for their party but held their noses, mumbling “Mayate” under their breath. This should also squash the Muslim paranoia that America hates Muslims. Hell, some guy with a Muslim name and Muslim daddy just got elected President! It may turn out that while he is indeed inexperienced in governing it won’t be the rise of the new USSR. As he picks conservatives for critical defense and security posts and lets the leftists take the social sector we could have another Lyndon. Lyndon had no problem dropping bombs on our enemies, while having Ramsey Clark as Atty. Genreal. As far as the delusion that somehow he is going to bring “hope and change”, as I asked the kids in class, why do you support him? “I don’t know, things will be better.” ” How? Do you think Air Force planes will be flying overhead pushing bales of money out of the butt end?” Let me burst the bubble of a lot of those thinking just ’cause he is Black the Police will stop shooting carjackers and liquor store robbers. Crack dealers and gang bangers will still be in business and there will still be slums and no jobs and do they really , really believe some gang thug is going to hand over his AK or Glock because the Messiah tells them to? Wow, they are truly out of their minds. Just be proud and happy, Black America. If you claim him and ignore his White half then be thankful that you live in a country where someone who looks like you can be elected and White Americans, don’t have a fit yet. Like the ladies and I agreed. Hope he succeeds and does a good job, because there are a lot of people betting on him and don’t want to be let down. A failure of the first Black American President would be a disaster for Black Americans even worse than for the rest of us. This is my hope, that he does do a good , honorable and patriotic job. Then we can all tell the America haters to go get stuffed, here and all over the World. Thank you.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:50 am 441. Pundit Joe:

Hi Chuck, I was only refering to your pricklyness concerning the ufo/bigfoot stuff. lol Dang, and I thought my answer to your chewbacka question was actually rather funny. Oh well, just no pleasin’ some folks. As a possible solution for that, I highly recommend getting a copy of Dennis Prager’s book – Happiness Is a Serious Problem. It’s pretty good.

Anyway, I think we have sussed out each others positions fairly well and I don’t suppose we are going to agree. While we may not see eye to eye on this issue I hope we can at least agree that BBQ is good. Perhaps, if I buy that new grill, we could hash things out over a good meal – and I promise not to wear my “bozo” nose at the table. Heh heh

Don’t go changing to try and please me. I love you just the way you are.

Dec 7, 2008 - 4:52 am 442. misanthropicus:

RE #408/Herb: [...] Obama will be the next President of the United States in January. You conspiracy theorists can spend the rest of your lives wondering about the validity of his birth for all I care. [...]

Herbie boy, not so fast – what you said is just recommanding an exculpation by (anyway) a still hypothetical “fait accompli” situation, theory which from plain common sense consideration to legal reasoner’s scrutiny doesn’t hold water.
I’ll rephrase it for you – “it might be that X has raped Y, but since Y is now pregnant and this is a good thing, X should be absolved.”

Further, in case you can summon a clearer mind – the Supreme Court has delayed its decision in the Donofrio/Soetero matter, fact very unusual and which shows:
a) by accepting the Donofrio/Soetero case for the conference, it (the Supreme Court) gave credence to the fact that the case might have validity;
b) then, by postponing a decision regarding it (very uusual fact) the Court showed that at least a few Justices found troubling things in Soetero’s situation, therefore further enhancing the validity of the case;

Tough for you Soetrotrolls, and even if eventually the Court will bounce the case, Soetero’s situation is far of having improved – it actually worsened significantly, via the Supreme Court’s legitimization, and other challenges, more and more effective on this direction will follow.
As I said before, Jericho didn’t fall at the first blare of the horns – and your hope that the fait accompli situation will save Soetero’s pants is quite unrealistic.

Dec 7, 2008 - 5:10 am 443. misanthropicus:

Re #432/YesWeCan:
1) “… his certificate … It’s on the internet for all to see, so if they see it physically why is it going to make any difference.”
NoYouCan’t: what we need is not the thing posted by Daily Kos on the Internet but the physical, original document (which Soetero adamantly refuses to release) for scrutiny by a team of objective forensic analysts – is this that complicated? That difficult? No – so it appears that NoYouCan’t.

2) “It’s sufficient for Obama to prove it to the government organizations that he has dealings with. If Obama wasn’t a citizen then the FBI and every security service in America would have revealed this.”
NoYouCan’t: Soetero hasn’t proved it to government arganizations – the vouching line goes strictly through the Democrat Party, and Soetro’s reluctance to substantiate this legitimate request shows that he took them to the laundry – leaving aside the possibility of some collusion/conspiracy in the DNC.

3) “The ‘evidence’ is there to show and prove he is an American citizen. If these nutters are so sure he isn’t then can they please bring a birth certificate from either Kenya, Russia, Indonesia.”
NoYouCan’t: The evidence IS NOT THERE – the fact that the Supreme Court hasn’t decided on the matter yet shows that they too, have a problem with Obama’s legitimacy.

4) “Can they please furnish any evidence that Obama was born somewhere else? No they can’t yet they use ‘No evidence’ to try to prove their case.”
NoYouCan’t: the burden of proof is on Soetero – after all, when you apply for a job it is not for the prospective employer to prove that you are NOT qualified by proving that your SSN is false, it’s for you to present the card upon demand.

5) “I feel sorry for sane Republicans who are feeling ashamed that there are people in the Republican party who are blinded by hatred.”
NoYouCan’t: there is no hatred here – the constitution is the highest guarantor of the social contract under which we all live. Allowing someone to disregard/by-pass it puts anyone’s and all freedoms and the ensuing well-being in jeopardy. We simply cannot look the other way because Soetro is simpatico – disregarding one article of the constitution lessens the binding strength of all other articles.

6) “I’m just waiting for someone to say Obama is really Elvis in diguise.”
NoYouCan’t: wrong again, Soetero is not Elvis in disguise – he is a STARK FRAUD, and his arrogant presence (some death wish, in this too), has been caused and is y maintained with abnegation by a sycophantic and irresponsible liberal media.

Conclusion: the costs of having Soetero his way are way to high for the republic. He must prove his eligibility for the job he applied for.

Dec 7, 2008 - 5:41 am 444. Peter the Sub Guy:

439. cedarford wrote:
Wow, way to win over military families, missionary families, and the mostly conservative ExPat families serving America’s vital business interests overseas, Right Wing Truthers!
Truthers claiming to speak for Republicans proudly state that any family working abroad, that has kids over there, has 2nd-class kids that cannot be considered “natural-born”.

Peter replies: Hey, cedarford, try reading the posts before you make a fool of yourself responding to them.

In case you didn’t notice, I have said REPEATEDLY, that children born to military personnel overseas on a military base (AS IN THE CASE OF McCAIN) they are born on sovereign, recognized US territory and are thusly NATURAL BORN CITIZENS!

You, cedarford, are an IDIOT!

Dec 7, 2008 - 7:45 am 445. Ms Attitude:

400. Herb:

Like I said, I obtained my passport 2 years ago without a birth certificate…I used my driver’s license…

Dec 7, 2008 - 7:55 am 446. Ms Attitude:

Reminder to all: HRC supporters were the first to bring up the issue of the birth certificate…right wing nut…I think not!

Dec 7, 2008 - 7:57 am 447. Mark H.:

How about this? Anybody applying to run for a government office has to first prove their eligibility to do so. Maybe, by filing the original document with the Electoral College. That is Everybody!! Instead of us just assuming that they are eligible.

Dec 7, 2008 - 7:58 am 448. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Herbal Denial

I’m not running away from anything. I have simply concluded that there can be no reasonable argument with irrational people. — Herb

Yeah….Right…that’s EXACTLY the way the neighbor down the street, one of the gaggle, responded when I suggested we continue the discussion over fine chardonnay or scotch at a later date. Something to do with her brother who I guess I reminder her of in terms of logic and persistence.

So…

…what do the likes of her and Herb do?

Run AWAAAAAAaaayyyyy! — Herb and Her, in a Monty Python moment

And then they, in their parthian shot approach to fleeing the field, say “You’re ‘irrational’!”

Looks like more projection to ME…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the field of fire. -- President Harry S. Truman, the Last Good Democrat (paraphrased)]

P.S. And so they do. But then I’m reminded that…..

Hatred is the cowards revenge for being intimidated.

….by facts.

Dec 7, 2008 - 8:07 am 449. Chuck Pelto:

TO: DC Bateman
RE: Heh

Maybe you should do some more reading.

Try all the previous posts on this thread for a start.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Ignorance is NOT 'bliss'. Especially around here....]

Dec 7, 2008 - 8:43 am 450. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Cedarford, Chuck(le) & Oaths Taken

As a sidenote, the 80+ CHuck Pelto posts sort of confirm Rick Moran’s point about Obama haters, hating him even more after winning the election – acting in an obsessive deranged Truther way. — cedarford

I find it interesting that cedarford, who claims to be a brother in the Officer Corps of the United States Armed Forces, doesn’t seem to share the same devotion to the oath he claims to have taken at some time in his past.

That oath, as I stated earlier in this thread, required the individual to “uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign AND domestic”.

So, when it looks like the Constitution could be violated, what does Bro cedarford do?

One has to wonder what he thinks an ‘oath’ is all about. What REALLY matters to someone who takes an oath to defend this country and then, at the sign of a definite conflict, runs away. And in the process declares anyone who stands by their word is a ‘lunatic’.

’nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country.... -- Thomas Paine]

Dec 7, 2008 - 8:50 am 451. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. In accordance with, a.k.a., IAW, in the military, my earlier comment about how cowards respond to being intimidated by the real truth of a matter, i.e., with ‘hatred’….

…if my understanding of cedarford is correct, I’ll likely see lots more vitriol from them. Maybe not immediately, but at sometime in the future as I’ll likely mention it here and there.

And I DO keep these sorts of discussions on file for reference purposes.

[Note: I've had too many encounters with the likes of Armed Liberal, Amy Alkon, Rachel Lucas, Andrea Harris, Charles Johnson and others who make posts 'disappear' so they cannot be referred to as evidence in a future discussion.....]

[The paleist ink outlasts the longest memory.]

Dec 7, 2008 - 9:01 am 452. Herb:

misanthropicus, Perhaps you are not aware, but your insistence on calling Obama “Soetero” exposes you as a delusional bad faith actor in this debate. Anything you say should be, if not dismissed out of hand, taken with a grain of salt.

Unfortunately for you, that has negative ramifications on your persuasiveness.

Dec 7, 2008 - 9:29 am 453. Herb:

Chuck looks in the mirror…and sees himself:

Hatred is the cowards revenge for being intimidated.

….by facts.

Chuck, correct me if I’m wrong, but when confronted with evidence that Obama’s birth certificate is legit (by the Hawaii health department, no less), wasn’t your response, “So? Government officials lie all the time.”

Intimidated by facts indeed.

Dec 7, 2008 - 9:31 am 454. Chuck Pelto:

TO: YesWeCan
RE: Try….

Nothing will convince them that he is an American citizen. — YesWeCan

…NOT to project your lack of intelligence on the rest of US.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. All we’re asking for is an authentic bona fide birth certificate? What’s wrong with that?

Dec 7, 2008 - 9:47 am 455. cfbleachers:

“There is also a discrepancy in what hospital Barack Hussein Obama was born in, even if he was born in Hawaii. Reports by his own sister in two separate interviews state that he was born at two different hospitals– Kapiolani Hospital and Queens Hospital–in Honolulu.

The Times Herald even reports: “the senator’s grandmother, brother and sister, who live in Kenya, believe they were present during Obama’s birth in the African country.” Here, the Times Herald uses the word that his family ‘believe’ he was born in Kenya”

http://www.israelenews.com/view.asp?ID=3324

You know, it’s surely a parlor game akin to the JFK assasination but it has some intriguing elements to it nonetheless. My issues with it all, stems not from any deep interest in the subject at hand, but rather, in the manner in which it has been handled.

Had a Republican candidate presented for election the facts before us, I have not one single, solitary moment of doubt that it would have been handled in a polar opposite manner.

1)IF…it is true that relatives in Kenya described being present at the live birth in Kenya, IF….the Kenyan ambassador said that the birth took place in Kenya;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH4GX3Otf14&feature=related

2)IF….there are no records in either Queens Hospital or Kapiolani Hospital;

3)IF….he was born at 7:24 PM at Coast Provincial Hospital in Mombassa, Kenya to an 18 year old Stanley Ann:

If Senator Barack Hussein Obama II was born in The Coast Provincial General Hospital at Mombasa in Kenya at 7.24 PM on August 4th 1961, or at any other time, he is not a Natural Born Citizen of these United States and he never was. Philip J Berg, Esq, is correct, under the Nationality Act of 1940, as Revised June 1952 and in accord with United States of America vs Cervantes-Nava 281 F 3d 501 (2002) and Drozd vs INS, 155 F 3d 81, 85-88 (2d Circuit 1998) Senator Barack Hussein Obama II would not ever have been a Legal US Citizen at all, unless he was Naturalized.

If he was born in The Coast Provincial General Hospital at Mombasa in Kenya any Certificate, or Certification of Live Birth, issued for him by the State of Hawaii is a Fraudulent and Illegal Document. At Birth he would have been a UK and Colonies Citizen and in accord with the Kenyan Constitution he would have become a Kenyan Citizen in December 1963. He would not have been a US Citizen.

Alternatively, his UK and Colonies Birth Certificate issued in Mombasa in August 1961 could be a Fraudulent and Illegal Document. The two BCs would need to be compared. By this I mean the Original Vault Copy of the Hawaiian Birth Certificate and not the Amended, Post Adoption, Copy, Legally available to the Senator, assuming he was, as indicated by the Preponderance of Evidence, Adopted by Lolo Soetoro. This case might also need to go through the UK and Kenyan Courts and becomes a Matter of International Law and Controversy.

If Barack Hussein Obama II was born at The Coast Provincial General Hospital at Mombasa in Kenya at 7:24 PM on August 4th 1961, or at any other time, it is certain that he is not Eligible to hold the Offices of POTUS or VPOTUS and highly probable that he is not Legally entitled to hold the Office of Senator either and that he was not Eligible to be an Illinois State Senator.

In that event the Senate Ethics and Rules Committee, Chair Diane Feinstein, have a problem because they are responsible for the Certification of a Candidate’s Compliance with Constitutional Requirements, a job they would have conspicuously failed to do. Should he be Elected the poisoned Chalice would pass to Nancy Pelosi because as Speaker of the House she, and the House, have the Responsibility to ensure that the President Elect can Effectively be Sworn In and Legally Assume the Office and Duties of the President.

Be very clear here, if Barack Hussein Obama II was born at The Coast Provincial General Hospital at Mombasa in Kenya at 7:24 PM on August 4th 1961, or at any other time, Diane Feinstein’s Committee have already failed in their Duty, as has every Secretary of State in the Union.

Let me repeat myself, if Barack Hussein Obama II was born in The Coast Provincial General Hospital at Mombasa in Kenya at 7:24 PM on August 4th 1961, or at any other time, he is not a Natural Born Citizen of these United States and he never was, he is not even a Citizen by Birth. I had assumed ab initio that Obama was born in Hawaii and that his Hawaiian Paperwork was basically “on the up and up”, I could not conceive that a lie of this magnitude was possible, I thought that the INS would have caught on long since. If he is a US Citizen under these circumstances his Oath of Allegiance must be on Record somewhere. If it isn’t he is not a US Citizen.

Hawaii may Legally be able to Issue a Birth Certificate under these circumstances, according to their own Code, but it would breach of International and Federal Law if they have. It would breach Hawaiian Law if the Place of Birth is spurious.

“[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State. (a) Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.

(b) Proof of legal residency shall be submitted to the director of health in any manner that the director shall deem appropriate. The director of health may also adopt any rules pursuant to chapter 91 that he or she may deem necessary or proper to prevent fraudulent applications for birth certificates and to require any further information or proof of events necessary for completion of a birth certificate.”

So by that section he could get a certificate claiming Hawaiian birth even if he was physically born outside the US but the Place of Birth would need to be correctly recorded.

Understand, the Hawaiian Authorities may be able to Issue a Hawaiian Birth Certificate under these circumstances but they cannot make you a US Citizen. A child born in Kenya to and underage US Female and a UK and Colonies Citizen in 1961 was not born a US Citizen under any US Federal Law, under British Law, or International Law. The only way such an Individual could be a US Citizen in terms of the XIVth Amendment, or any Statute, or Code of US Federal Law is by Naturalization.

http://texasdarlin.wordpress.com/2008/10/11/obama-born-in-kenya-new-information/

So, the parlor game comes down to this. The entrenched media has not asked ANY questions on the subject. They have not asked what in the world could possibly be in the medical records that have been sealed….or why they would need to be.

They have not looked into travel to Kenya at or around the dates in question by the mother.

They have not asked why the college records would need to be sealed.

They have not asked why the Certificate of Live Birth would need to be sealed.

They have not asked whether the TWO hospitals in question have an attending physician statement or records of the birth.

They have not asked the Kenyan Hospital any questions whatsoever.

Had this been a Republican candidate…or a pregnant daughter of a VP candidate, or a Plumber…would they have been so disinterested in this parlor game?

Why….why…..why, do ALL those records need to be blocked with such intensity and ferocity? If Joe the Plumber’s records are of such intense interest, if Trig’s circumstance of birth issues are of such interest….isn’t it a bit curious that the very same people who breathe with such heart-racing intensity seem to be working so hard to NOT play this particular parlor game?

Because, as parlor games go…this one has a lot of fun pieces to move around the board.

Again, I’m not particularly interested in seeing some technicality win an election, and I would not be pleased to see the aftermath if this one was brought forward and uncovered.

But I AM interested in 1)knowing how deeply unvetted one could be in running for high office with a complicit entrenched media as a sentry at your gate. And 2), I AM interested in exposing the conspiracy of silence and propagandizing by the entrenched media and the wholesale differences in treatment of each party in this country.

My instincts would normally swing toward those who say “let’s move on, this is beneath us”, EXCEPT for the fact of the above two items. For those two reasons, I have decided to not dismiss this out of hand. Those two issues are more important to me than the underlying issue at the moment.

Put differently, I am less interested in the technicality itself than I am in the PROCESS that brings us to this point. Vetting was horrific and intentionally lax. Propagandizing by the entrenched media has reached a nadir in double standards of objectivity and honest reporting.

Our ability to self-govern this land of ours depends upon the solid belief that our information stream is not corrupted and polluted with lies, half-truths, distortions and propaganda. It is not without small irony that we self-governing citizens have no STANDING to challenge the corruption of our information stream, the utter lack of vetting of our highest offices of election and the very rudimentary foundations for eligibility for the office of those we elect to lead us.

This is NOT about President-elect Obama for my purposes. I’m perfectly content to have him as my President and support him fully.

But I am not the least bit happy about the complete shirking of responsibility of those who allowed this parlor game to build so many pieces of intrigue because they decided that THEIR worldview superceded our rights to be served and protected.

Because of THOSE who choose to make our rules of fairness, honor, integrity and unity a personal whim, our ability to self-govern this land of ours has become a sham. And if it takes a parlor game to prove it, based upon a technicality of birth…so be it.

I don’t care what the answer is where President-elect Obama was born. I hope it turns out conclusively that he has standing to be our President. I do care about circumventing the rules of proper vetting. I do care about our information stream not operating as a secret arm of one party. The PROCESS of vetting and the AVAILABILITY of honest information upon which we self-govern this land of ours…are sacrosanct.

And regardless of the viability of “uncovering” some technical violation or another, it is important to protect those two vehicles upon which we rely to self-govern.

There is no “tinfoil hat” here, I WANT President-elect Obama to be found eligible. But I want honor, honesty, fairness, and proper vetting restored as well. Nobody but a fool would say that has happened in this election process.

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:02 am 456. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Herb Is STILL Here???!?!?

How VERY ‘odd’. I’m suddenly reminded of that item in Proverbs….

As a dog returns to its vomit, so does a fool return to their folly. — Proverbs

Chuck, correct me if I’m wrong, but when confronted with evidence that Obama’s birth certificate is legit (by the Hawaii health department, no less), wasn’t your response, “So? Government officials lie all the time.” — Herb

I find it interesting that for some ’strange’ reason, Herb cannot recall that no such document as a bona fide ‘birth certificate’ has been presented.

Let alone the idea that the Federal Election Commission has not confirmed such a document exists or is valid.

’nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Let sleeping dogs lie.]

I prefer to kick them in their a–….

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:08 am 457. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. You stand ‘corrected’…..

What next/

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:13 am 458. Smarty:

Ceder, a US military base is US soil.

A German hospital, for example, is not. That is why my sister had to be naturalized, despite being born to a US GI and a naturalized US mother.

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:18 am 459. goy:

DC Bateman:

- Look at it this way. He IS an American citizen. There ARE witnesses. Hawaii was a new US State, his mother was a citizen, so that makes him one of us. … This is my hope, that he does do a good , honorable and patriotic job.

So say we all, DC.

No, really.

Perhaps it’s gotten lost in the seemingly fruitless attempts by some of us to point out Moran’s and others’ willful stupidity, apathy, ignorance, hypocrisy and/or inanity here, but I’m not aware of any serious person who believes BHO isn’t an American. I’m also not aware of any serious person who hopes he’ll do a bad job as President – despite the fact that it’ll be his very first executive position, ever, and will be the first office he’s held in his political career where he won’t be spending all his time running for some next-higher office.

And – leaving aside the unprecedented overwhelming media bias, BHO’s outright lie about taking public funding, his campaign’s documented but open and unchallenged online fund collection fraud, and numerous other transgressions no other candidate could ever have gotten away with – he was clearly elected by a goodly majority of Americans. So in the sense that people get the government they deserve, his current status as President-Elect is legitimate as far as it goes. If he’s sworn in next month, you won’t hear me mimicking moral adolescents like Julia Roberts, claiming “he’s not my president”. Respect he’ll have to earn, but loyal opposition he will have, for my part.

But the problem is this: the vast majority of those who voted for BHO did so based on the assumption (remember: ASS|U|ME) that he is legally eligible to serve in the Office of the POTUS according to the letter of the Constitution, which requires that he be a natural born citizen of the United States. There’s no wiggle room in that requirement, and questions on this point have been raised for almost a year now. Those questions have never been answered definitively, only allegorically, as BHO attempted to do in his manifestly premature memoirs, and as Moran has sought, unconvincingly, to do in this article.

These same questions arose when it became widely known that McCain was not born in the Continental United States. The resulting controversy this past spring would undoubtedly have been resurrected if McCain had been elected, and for similar reasons: there are inconsistencies regarding the circumstances of McCain’s birth that leave his citizenship status unresolved in the strictest sense.

I’ll skip my standard lament regarding our nation’s inability to produce candidates with unimpeachable qualifications, because the above brings up the question of the standards for Moran’s faux version of “Derangement Syndrome”. Did Michael Dobbs qualify for this dubious prize back in May when he wrote the article linked above, which is clearly an attempt by the overwhelmingly left-biased media to cast doubt on McCain’s eligibility? Dobbs was so desperate to offer damning innuendo that he included statements by an obviously clueless, academic hack (Sarah Duggin) who seems to think that “[t]he Constitution is ambiguous”. Duggin failed to note that the Constitution is mute regarding the definition of a “natural born Citizen” and that, therefore, there is no ambiguity. Contrary to her assertions, status as a “natural born Citizen” has in fact been defined legislatively going as far back as 1790. Dobbs’ source further embarrasses herself by claiming a Constitutional Amendment or Supreme Court decision would be required, and that such could somehow retroactively alter the 1936 laws defining natural born citizenship so as to make McCain’s eligibility clear. One can only wonder whether this sort of shameless pandering by Dobbs, in transparent pursuit of a political agenda, might have been considered “McCain Derangement Syndrome” by someone like Moran. Oh, who am I kidding – of course it wouldn’t have.

In any case, McCain made good faith efforts to comply with the Constitutional requirements: he released a valid, physical birth certificate document. No one has seriously questioned the validity of this document and McCain’s eligibility status was at least proven to the unanimous satisfaction of the U.S. Senate (for what it’s worth given their resolution’s unbinding nature… and responses like Martinez’ – see above). Truth be told, I would also guess that the Senate was willing to give him the benefit of any doubt since, unlike BHO, McCain came as close to giving his life for his country as it is possible to do, and in about as horrific a manner as can be imagined.

But BHO has so far refused to do the same. There is in fact a COLB document available in BHO’s case – it’s simply been sealed for undisclosed reasons and he refuses to release it for public scrutiny. If BHO wishes to serve as my President – against my express wishes as a natural born, voting U.S. citizen – I’d like to know what those reasons are and I’d like to see proof that he’s eligible to do so. But the double standard allowing BHO to ignore the requirements – and worse, to offer a digital image of a certificate that can’t even stand up to cursory analysis – is openly and even cheerfully accepted by hypocrites like Moran, most of the entrenched media and politicians like Martinez. Anyone who might possibly improve the prospects for their career in a darkening economy by doing so seems comfortable covering for BHO on this issue. It’s shameful.

Moran and his like-minded ilk in the left blogosphere would like to frame this issue as a case of “sour grapes”. Lacking conclusive facts and thus incapable of mounting a rational argument, they turn to irrelevant factoids. Failing in that, they continue with ad hominem attacks and appeals to ridicule – both of which are direct obeisance to Rule 5 of Saul Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals. Just as we’ve seen with the anthropogenic global warming scam, their goal is to shut down debate before the issue becomes a wider concern – straight from Rule 7. This is not how a Republic is preserved.

During the campaign it was possible, even likely, that BHO didn’t want to release his original COLB for fear that something on that document might cost him the election. That’s somewhat understandable, assuming there’s nothing on it that would call his eligibility into question. But now that he occupies the redoubtable (albeit heretofore unknown) Office of the President-Elect, the situation has changed dramatically. BHO’s continued refusal to accede to the same standards as McCain did (before the election) not only increases the likelihood that the COLB contains disqualifying information, but minimally fuels a controversy that will only grow, casting permanent doubt on his administration and any actions he may take as President. What happens, for instance, when another country questions the validity of his administration on the basis of this issue? How, exactly, are we as a nation supposed to respond to that? By just saying, “trust us”? It’s patently absurd.

My personal concern is that this is exactly what’s going to happen, as we’ve come to live in a world increasingly devoid of accountability. This has gotten so bad that I can easily envision the Supreme Court collectively taking a pass on this issue based on legalistic technicalities like “lack of standing” or “not within judicial notice”, etc., and inspired by the manner in which they’ve been blamed for “selecting” George W. Bush – who, according to media-induced conventional wisdom, has since brought America to the very brink of ruin.

We’ve just barely survived 8 straight years of the entrenched media’s relentless attempts to destroy the Office of the POTUS because it was held by someone they hated, so it should go without saying that this is NOT what our country needs right now – especially in the context of America’s first half-African-American President. The irrational hysteria from the quarters of the left blogosphere and Rick Moran’s basement, however, make it increasingly unlikely that this issue will ever be definitively resolved.

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:18 am 460. Peter the Sub Guy:

455. Herb wrote:
Chuck, correct me if I’m wrong, but when confronted with evidence that Obama’s birth certificate is legit (by the Hawaii health department, no less), wasn’t your response, “So? Government officials lie all the time.”

Peter responds: Herb, read the posts, will you. The Hawai’ian official said the certificate was “valid.” He never said it was “Legitimate.” That is the POINT of CONTENTION. Get with the program!

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:42 am 461. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: Another Fisking

If you ask for it, I’m happy to oblige.

RE: Don’t….

Boy howdy, I seem to have bothered some folks. Heh heh — Pundit Joe

…go gett’n the ‘big head’ about yourself. You couldn’t hold a candle to Colonel ‘No Slack’ Stack.

The time to have made these challenges to his eligibility was BEFORE the election. Yes, I know some folks were poking about with it, but their challenges were unsuccessful. — Pundit Joe

Actually, some people were making this challenge back then.

Others of US were totally ‘ignorant’ about the matter.

But, tell me, does being ignorant of the Law and this sort of situation make the Law invalid?

Not according to the premise that ‘Ignorance of the Law is no excuse’?

Not bloodly likely.

Ultimately, since the election has already taken place and considering the current state of the union, I believe that pursuing this is irresponsible and only serves to hurt the conservative movement and ultimately the nation. — Pundit Joe

Ultimately, the Law, which says that only a natural-born citizen can be ‘president’ is not overruled by your total ignorance/stupidity.

Or maybe you could show me the book/chapter/verse of where I am wrong.

Take it as a lesson and look into such things earlier so as to avoid any similar issues in the future. Heck, it ain’t as if we didn’t have the time in this election – this season seemed about two solid years. — Pundit Joe

Hardly, idiot.

I take it as a ‘lesson’ that you don’t know what you’re talking about. Or much, much worse. And, based on past communications from you, I’m beginning to suspect the latter.

Also, why didn’t any of Obama’s opponents in the primaries bring this up? They would have loved for anything to knock him out that couldn’t be construed as a personal attack. Perhaps they didn’t bring it up because there was no meat there? He couldn’t have avoided it if Hillary had mentioned it as a concern in a debate when he first started to overtake her in the polls. There were enough Hillary supporters in the press to force the issue. — Pundit Joe

Probably because, like all too many of US, we were ignorant. But that doesn’t make US as stupid as you appear to be.

RE: The Takings

P.S. Chuck, don’t take things so personally. We ain’t gotta agree to get along. And to answer your question – it was okay. Not as exciting as one might have expected. I tried to take some photos, but dang it – they all came out blurry! LOL — Pundit Joe

I don’t really care much whether or not we ‘agree’ on thinks. Not that important to me. You’re welcome to believe what you like. It’s not MY problem.

Instead of continuing your BS garbage about how those of US who disagree with you about this matter are ‘lunatics’ who practice bestiality, you still haven’t quite ‘got it’.

I’m expecting an apology for your stupidity. Not more BS of the same sort.

By the way….

…when did YOU do anything for US? Anything like swearing that the Constitution of the United States means more to you than your very life?

Hi Chuck, I was only refering to your pricklyness concerning the ufo/bigfoot stuff. lol Dang, and I thought my answer to your chewbacka question was actually rather funny. Oh well, just no pleasin’ some folks. As a possible solution for that, I highly recommend getting a copy of Dennis Prager’s book – Happiness Is a Serious Problem. It’s pretty good. — Pundit Joe

I don’t give a hoot. And I don’t care what others who don’t support the Constitution of the United States think of this situation either. That is unless they can provide a rational argument as to why I’m wrong. But, oddly enough, none have as yet. And that includes you.

Anyway, I think we have sussed out each others positions fair and I don’t suppose we are going to agree. While we may not see eye to eye on this issue I hope we can at least agree that BBQ is good. Perhaps, if I buy that new grill, we could hash things out over a good meal – and I promise not to wear my “bozo” nose at the table. Heh heh — Pundit Joe

Not important whether we ‘agree’ or not. What IS important is the bottom line. And, oddly enough, neither you nor I decide how that line ‘reads’. But it’s an individual’s issue as to how we engage it.

You remind me of that fellow who confessed, in the late 90s, to knowing that the Gulf of Tonkin ‘Incident’ was a hoax. And he really didn’t seem so upset about the fact that 58,000 American died because he kept the secret, against his oath to uphold the Constitution.

You, cedarford, McCain. You all same-same…..

Don’t go changing to try and please me. I love you just the way you are. — Pundit Joe

Don’t worry about that…..you’re opinion of me is not that important….in my eyes.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[We're all going down the same road in different directions. -- Farber's Law]

P.S. Of late the road-signs indicate Hell…..

Dec 7, 2008 - 10:52 am 462. misanthropicus:

Re 454/ Herb: [...] Perhaps you are not aware, but your insistence on calling Obama “Soetero” exposes you as a delusional bad faith actor in this debate. [... ]Unfortunately for you, that has negative ramifications on your persuasiveness. [...]

Herb: appreciate your worrying about my loss of persuasiveness, really do – and here is my response:
1) regarding the use of the name Soetero: the only document I, and most of the US citizens were able to inspect for verifying that person’s identity, was a good quality picture of an ancient enrolment page at the Franziskus school, Djakarta, which showed clearly:
a) the name “Barry Soetero”
b) religion “Muslim”
3) citizenship: “Indonesian”, document produced by the AP, entity which guaranteed the authenticity of the paper in cause;
2) further, this is the ONLY existing document available which shines a light over the identity of dba Barrack Obama. No other documents certifying mr. “Obama’s” trajectory in life have been made available, no birth certificate, no passports, no college papers, no diplomas, no Drivers’ licences, no phone bills, no nothin’.
So, based on that trustworhy Indonesian document, I think that it is very appropiate to use the name of “Soetoro” in any debate regarding him – after all, he can easily prove me, and many others, wrong, can’t he?

Secondly, my impression is that you avoid to answer to my rebuke/post #444, which is an assessment of mister Soetero’s trubles in the light of the Supreme Court’s unusual delay for an opinion in the Friday’s conference. Here follows a re-post of the text – your views will be certainly appreciate, bellow is the re-post:

Herb’s post #408: [...] Obama will be the next President of the United States in January. You conspiracy theorists can spend the rest of your lives wondering about the validity of his birth for all I care. [...]

misanthropicus’ post #444: Herbie boy, not so fast – what you said is just recommanding an exculpation by (anyway) a still hypothetical “fait accompli” situation, theory which, from plain common sense consideration to legal reasoner’s scrutiny doesn’t hold water.
I’ll rephrase it for you – “it might be that X has raped Y, but since Y is now pregnant and this is a good thing, X should be absolved.”

Further, in case you can summon a clearer mind – the Supreme Court has delayed its decision in the Donofrio/Soetero matter, fact very unusual and which shows:
a) by accepting the Donofrio/Soetero case for the conference, it (the Supreme Court) gave credence to the fact that the case might have validity;
b) then, by postponing a decision regarding it (very uusual fact) the Court showed that at least a few Justices found troubling things in Soetero’s situation, therefore further enhancing the validity of the case;

Tough for you Soetrotrolls, and even if eventually the Court will bounce the case, Soetero’s situation is far of having improved – it actually worsened significantly, via the Supreme Court’s legitimization, and other challenges, more and more effective on this direction will follow.
As I said before, Jericho didn’t fall at the first blare of the horns – and your hope that the “fait accompli” situation will save Soetero’s pants is quite unrealistic.
Respectfully looking for your views -
misanthropicus

Dec 7, 2008 - 11:13 am 463. Herb:

Chuck,

If they want to maintain their reputation as a “high IQ society,” Mensa should revoke your membership immediately.

You don’t want an authentic bonafide (one word) birth certificate. If so, here ya go:

http://msgboard.snopes.com/politics/graphics/birth.jpg

Lookey there. An authentic bonafide birth certificate! Now what are you holding out for?

Let’s review:

1) The State of Hawaii confirms the existence of a valid birth certificate for Barack Hussein Obama, born in Hononlulu, HI on August 4, 1961 at 7:24PM. State law prevents them from releasing it to the public. (I have provided a list of the people who they CAN legally release it to, and “Inquiring minds want to know” isn’t on there.)

2) Obama himself has released his birth certificate to the public, mostly to quiet conspiracy-minded fools who still insist, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that he’s not a natural born American.

3) You can view a scan of the birth certificate with your own eyes.

Now go twist yourself into knots arguing about margins and raised seals. But please don’t pretend you’re holding out for “the truth,” when you obviously have difficulty accepting the truth.

PS. Is there a Mensa-equivalent society for fools? If so, you might consider joining.

Dec 7, 2008 - 11:26 am 464. robotech master:

Heres a good read and sum up of the issues to add into cfbleachers comments.

http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/20081207DJH

Dec 7, 2008 - 11:34 am 465. Rashputin:

Herb – “… but your insistence on calling Obama “Soetero” …”

Yeah, no more of this misuse of the man’s name. Obama is a nice Arab-American Muslim boy being picked on because he wants to bring Change to America like so many other nice Arab Muslim boys want to.

From now on, anyone who refers to The President Elect by any name other than the full, Barak Hussein Obama, should be considered nothing but a racist and Islamophobe. If space is at such a premium that you absolutely must use something shorter, stick to the example set by his mother and use only his middle name, Hussein.

Have a Berry nice day

P.S. After years of democrats telling anyone who would listen how intellectually superior they are, I believe I’ll follow their example of enlightenment and call this Obama fella anything that pops into head. Hitler, Stalin, Butthole, Moron, Idiot, any of the endearing names that they’ve used when discussing the current president. Surely Herb should be proud that conservatives and republicans are seeking to imitate the enlightened approach the democrats themselves have used. It’s the sincerest form of flattery, right?

Dec 7, 2008 - 11:44 am 466. Herb:

Peter the Sub Guy:

“The Hawai’ian official said the certificate was “valid.” He never said it was “Legitimate.” That is the POINT of CONTENTION. Get with the program!”

Read those sentences out loud to yourself. Then ask yourself how a “valid” birth certificate can be illegitimate.

Not to get all semantical on you, but “valid” and “legitimate” are the SAME THING. Where is this contention you speak of?

Again, this isn’t a political debate. This is a debate between people who can accept facts, and those who can’t.

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:04 pm 467. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb [Who alleged he was guit of this discussion[
RE: Yeah…

Read those sentences out loud to yourself. Then ask yourself how a “valid” birth certificate can be illegitimate. — Herb

Maybe you should practice what you ‘preach’.

Or is English a tertiary langauge for you?

Regards,

Chuck(le0

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:22 pm 468. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: And…

…we thought Herb would be a ‘man’ of his ‘word’.

Silly US….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[As if any 'progressive' could be trusted at their 'word'.]

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:23 pm 469. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Additional ‘Indicators’

So I clicked on the ‘link’ offered by Herb at item #465 here…

…and all I get is…

MyBrowser has detected that the server is redirecting the request for this address in a way that will never complete.

Will these liars NEVER learn?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:31 pm 470. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Herb
RE: Mensa Retests

If they want to maintain their reputation as a “high IQ society,” Mensa should revoke your membership immediately.

— Herb

You really ARE ‘ignorant’. And proud of it, too, based on what we’ve read of you here todate.

Too bad…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Maybe they will, some day….when they think political correctness is more important that Life.

Heck. We’ve seen it played out in history more often than naught.

But, seriously….are THEY or YOU the ‘ultimate Judge’?

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:40 pm 471. robotech master:

Herb congrats on both posting a broken link and attempting to post a image which has been posted at least 6 times before and be completely debunked… please stop circle jerking.

As for “valid” Peter the sub guy misspoke you are correct that valid and legitimate are basically the same. What peter meant to say was that the birth cert doesn’t legitimatly mean that obama was born in hawaii(which has been said at least 60+ times already once again stop circle jerking and read past posts).

Its quiet clear what hawaii has said on the point of obama “valid” birth cert… is that he has a birth cert on record and it is valid… it is also clear what they haven’t said… they(hawaii) have NEVER said obama was born in HAWAII and that his birth cert CONFIRMS this… they have also NEVER said that obama is a US CITIZEN.

I repeat again STOP CIRCLE JERKING.

If you can post where it says that HAWAII and I QUOTE SAYS “OBAMA WAS BORN IN HAWAII” or “OBAMA IS A US CITIZEN” then thats proof… until such time all you have is the fact that hawaii has confirm a birth cert on record… which if he was BORN ON THE MOON he WOULD STILL HAVE A VALID HAWAIIAN BIRTH CERT.

Many states have illegal alien birth cert on record because they have filed them into the government…. Just because they have a birth cert on record doesn’t even mean hes a US citizen….

Dec 7, 2008 - 12:44 pm 472. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Based on some thinks….here….

[1] I suspect you’d probably ‘qualify’ to be a member of Mensa, as you seem relatively-compared to some others here—as more intelligent.

[2] I’d be happy to ‘clean-your-clock’ were we to meet at an AG and you did some stupid thinks as you’ve done here.

I say that as a former LocSec for the Denver chapter of Mensa.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

P.S. Shall we meet at the 2009 BVRVRG?

I’ll provide the bocce balls…..

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:00 pm 473. Pundit Joe:

Perhaps my original joke was in poor taste and for that I apologize, but the core meaning of the comment, as explained, I believe to be true. I’m content to have others judge my comments. Of course, it is a might difficult for you to claim the high ground when your posts are laced with personal insults and attacks. “Rules for me and rules for thee” – is that at work here?

I would like to ask one last question though in order to clarify one of your quotes in comment #463,”…when did YOU do anything for US? Anything like swearing that the Constitution of the United States means more to you than your very life?”

So, in your eyes, based upon this quote and considering the context of you comment #423, are a person’s opinions are less legitimate because they have not served in the armed forces?

I honor and greatly appreciate your service, but the fact you have served and taken an oath doesn’t make you automatically right. Lee Harvey Oswald served, but he was also a terrible person. I’m not comparing you to Oswald, I’m just pointing out that service doesn’t give a person automatic legitimacy. You are free to look down upon the law abiding, hard working, tax paying citizenry all you like, but I won’t. I honor all that work hard for this country. I don’t expect nor do I ask you to apologize to me, but won’t you at least apologize to all the other hard working American’s out there you dismissed with your comment?

I’m sorry you are such an angry person. I’m sorry you feel contempt for me and others like me. I won’t try to change your mind nor will I respond to any of your future comments. You are free to believe in conspiracies and to be consumed by anger. I cannot stop you, but neither will I take part in your obsession.

I suspect you have a long and bitter road ahead as you will likely continue to cling tightly to this issue and never receive the resolution you so strongly desire. Good luck.

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:09 pm 474. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master, et al.
RE: STOP IT!!!!

I repeat again STOP CIRCLE JERKING. — robotech master

Actually….

…I think THIS is the only ‘joy’ he/she derives from ‘Life”.

So sad…..when you think about it….

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:11 pm 475. Herb:

To Chuck Pelto:
RE: High IQ, Low Intelligence

Smart enough to join MENSA, but not smart enough to click a link. Or even use the Google! I guess you’re not truly as inquisitive as you claim.

Try this one:

http://www.fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

The birth certificate is out there. It clearly states Obama was born in Hawaii. Every other document that he has, including his drivers license, his passport, his social security card, etc, also provides documentation that he’s an American citizen.

If you remain unconvinced, you CAN NOT BE CONVINCED. Of anything. That is not an attribute of a person with high intelligence.

Ridicule me for not being a man of my word all you want. It makes you no less wrong. And though my efforts to dissuade you of your erroneous conclusions may be for naught, you can’t knock a guy for trying.

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:14 pm 476. Rashputin:

goy “… half-African-American …”

Wrong, Obama is only the seven percent solution. He is, however, properly referred to as an Arab-American.

Chuck – a contract of unlimited liability is beyond the depth the majority of these folks can even fathom, much less swim at. To them, a law, a contract, their word, their oath; all are just convenient tools available to aid in their deceiving others who may still believe in such things. Why, for example, is Congress deep into bailout talk rather than into ethics investigations and criminal charges of violation of fiduciary responsibility?

Because the democrats have elected reflections of themselves, that’s why. Unverified and forged credentials are so common among “the elites” that many a faculty would be decimated if actual verification of credentials were routinely expected. Constitution or not, the fact that so many on the left have thrived for so long on their own faked credentials means that expecting Hussein to produce his could lead to the whole house of cards coming down. Remaining a free people under such circumstances is difficult to say the least. Let’s hope there’s still some time left before it’s too late (”too late” being another concept lost on the “do over” crowd).

Regards

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:25 pm 477. cedarford:

Peter the Sub Guy:
439. cedarford wrote:
Wow, way to win over military families, missionary families, and the mostly conservative ExPat families serving America’s vital business interests overseas, Right Wing Truthers!
Truthers claiming to speak for Republicans proudly state that any family working abroad, that has kids over there, has 2nd-class kids that cannot be considered “natural-born”.

Peter replies: Hey, cedarford, try reading the posts before you make a fool of yourself responding to them.

In case you didn’t notice, I have said REPEATEDLY, that children born to military personnel overseas on a military base (AS IN THE CASE OF McCAIN) they are born on sovereign, recognized US territory and are thusly NATURAL BORN CITIZENS!
You, cedarford, are an IDIOT!

That’s rich. A former submariner calling someone an idiot.

Again you ignore all the expats, families of religious Americans servibg overseas, people stationed overseas doing important civilian work for the Government, and US soldiers and families stationed out of allied nation’s bases, small bases lacking hospitals. Born in those country’s hospitals. Like my cousin, born to AF parents stationed at Gander.

More importantly, you and the other Truthers fixated on only happenstance of birth on US soil somehow magically confers “natural-born citizenship”. In doing so, you remain ignorant that natural born citizenship predates “citizenship by birth on US soil” Constitutionally by 75 years. When the 2nd path, jus solis, was added in 1868, as someones bright idea to legitimize ex-slaves as citizens, the 14th Amendment never extinguished the higher jus sanguinis right to citizenship by blood.
*************************
460 SALTY – Smarty:

Ceder, a US military base is US soil.

A German hospital, for example, is not. That is why my sister had to be naturalized, despite being born to a US GI and a naturalized US mother.

Again, the fixation with soil and circumstance making a natural born citizen (the matter of illegals born on US soil is not Constitutionally resolved like the matter of diplomats and legations here NOT getting instant citizenship but varying by treaty).

Again, the matter of natural born, jus sanguinis citizenship has been fairly settled prior to the Truthers saying Americans born abroad are 2nd class citizens. VP Charles Curtis was born on sovereign soil of an Indian reservation to a non-citizen Indian mom and US citizen Dad, Goldwater on unresolved territory many thought might be returned to Mexico in Border adjustments. George Romney was born in Mexico to US parents at a religious colony, and was cleared to run for President by the election Commission. Lowell Weicker was born in a Paris hospital to an American executive and his naturalized, French born wife. He obtained a legal ruling from the Commission prior to his Presidential bid he was “native-born”.

The present batch of Right-Wing Truthers, Salty, neglect that the “naturalization” papers clearly state that the US accepts such children of Americans not as 2nd class to an illegal’s baby popped out hours after she illegally crossed into America – but that such children are natural Americans by right of blood from the moment of their birth.
There is no paper trail of stating a baby, such as to your relatives was born only with German citizenship then the US citizenship, the “abnormal” part if you believe Truthers, was only added later and only by dispensation of the Law and the Government bureaucrats to the “German baby”.
Natural born from birth. Your sister is not a 2nd class citizen. She could run for President if she wanted to.

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:34 pm 478. robotech master:

Hey herb no one is saying for the most part that obama isn’t a american citizen… I think everyone agree he is NOW an american citizen… NOW DOESN’T MATTER though.

I like how you keep changing the burden of proof and what your trying to prove because you have nothing…

Once again you post both a easily changed doc and one that has been questioned if even valid…

You have proven that obama is now a citizen of the US which doesn’t matter because no one cares about NOW… only then which you still have yet to show any proof… you continue to circle jerk.

Once again I ask you POST WHERE HAWAII OFFICIAL HAVE SAID HE WAS BORN IN HAWAII… you say they did POST IT.

PS. Ridicule, ridicule, ridicule….. and your a noob or likes to circle jerk.

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:39 pm 479. robotech master:

cedarford you understand that a non-US citizen has run for POTUS not once but twice your argument is stupid at best…

“424. robotech master:

O and heres a jem from another thread….

Posted by rxsid:

F) Without question, the Secretary of State of New Jersey (& possibly other SoS’s) did NOT do their job in making sure the presidential candidates (including Obama) were qualified and eligible to be on their states’ ballot. [This is, in part, the subject of Leo Donofrio's lawsuit.]

Why?

How would the SoS from NJ explain that Roger Calero was on their ballet as a candidate?

Socialist Workers Party candidate Roger Calero isn’t even a U.S. citizen (Naturalized OR Natural Born), yet appeared on NJ’s presidential ballot.

Calero was also allowed on the state ballot in: Delaware, Minnesota, New York and Vermont.

Calero is a permanent resident alien (holding a green card).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B3ger_Calero

So once again to herb and pundit joe(and now cedarford) clear proof that a alien has run for president….”

Please read posts… you like rick moron and herb are debunked before you even post your arguments… try to at least post your whine before we do…

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:43 pm 480. Barry Kearns:

Herb wrote: “Lookey there. An authentic bonafide birth certificate! Now what are you holding out for?

Let’s review:

1) The State of Hawaii confirms the existence of a valid birth certificate for Barack Hussein Obama, born in Hononlulu, HI on August 4, 1961 at 7:24PM. State law prevents them from releasing it to the public. (I have provided a list of the people who they CAN legally release it to, and “Inquiring minds want to know” isn’t on there.)”

—-

Herb, what you’ve consistently failed to address is that what has been released is not an unamended Certificate of Live Birth. What has been released is a CartificatION of Live Birth, and Hawaii Law has allowed those to be issued to individuals who were born OUTSIDE THE STATE OF HAWAII.

It has also been pointed out that Hawaii allows the contents of Certification of Live Birth forms to be AMENDED. You can have the contents changed so that it no longer matches what was on your original birth certificate. One of the reasons for this is adoptions. In some cases, adoptive parents wish to create a “legal fiction”, and the law permits them to do so, changing birth data.

Hawaii will not accept the Certification of Live Birth document as identification that you are native-born Hawaiian, for their Home Stead program for instance. They insist that you present the long-form Certificate of Live Birth, which is not amended.

Since the data on some valid Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth certificates is not, in fact, an accurate record of where an individual was really born, there is a non-zero chance that Obama’s data on that for is also not a match to what really happened.

In the case of every person who has an amended Certification of Live Birth in Hawaii, the officials can legitimately say that their Certification of Live Birth certificates are valid and legal documents.
That doesn’t mean that they actually identify physically where a person really was born.

Understand?

That’s why it’s important to see the document that could not have been legally amended. Hawaii has confirmed that they have such a document on file. They also will not discuss the contents of that document.

The Supreme Court could legitimately order the release of that document, as they have a tangible interest in that vital record, in order to verify that Obama is elilgible to be President of the United States.

Why should that document not be released to the Supreme Court, if they so order? And why should they not order it, since no one else is apparently vested with the responsibility of verifying his eligibility?

Dec 7, 2008 - 1:43 pm 481. goy:

Herb:

- I’d provide further argument here, but I’ll let events do my talking from here on out.

Guess this was just as big a lie as BHO’s claim that he’d accept public campaign funding if his opponent did.

By now everyone who’s interested has already seen the digitally constructed, likely forged image BHO claims is his “birth certificate”, so you haven’t brought anything new to the discussion. It is widely understood – though apparently not by you – that this is NOT a scanned image of the vault copy of BHO’s COLB, which has been sealed by the Governor of Hawaii for undisclosed reasons. The image itself contains non-trivial inconsistencies that have yet to be adequately explained by anyone. Only a fool like you, Dan Rather or Mary Mapes would fall for something like this.

Plenty of folks who are not natural born citizens have a passport, driver’s license, social security card, etc. The more money BHO spends on attorneys from multiple law firms in an effort to keep his sealed COLB hidden, rather than simply pay the $12.50 fee to release it, the more it looks like he’s one of these and, therefore, ineligible to be sworn in as POTUS.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:04 pm 482. Peter the Sub Guy:

467. Herb:
Read those sentences out loud to yourself. Then ask yourself how a “valid” birth certificate can be illegitimate.

Peter (who feels like he is talking to a 40 year old person with the IQ of a mentally-challenged kindergartener) exasperatedly replies:
What part of the above thread have you not been reading, Herb??? It has been stated I don’t know HOW MANY TIMES in just this thread alone, but Obama, or The One, or whatever you want to call him as you genuflect to his graven image could have been born at Utopia Plainita on the planet MARS and he could STILL have a “valid” Hawai’i birth certificate. However, that does NOT necessarily make it a “LEGITIMATE” certificate if it ws filed with false information. The law in effect in Hawai’i makes it possible, (quote) “Using legal or illegal means” (end quote) to register a birth in Hawai’i that did not actually occur IN THAT STATE!

Does that get through your overly thick skull yet???

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:11 pm 483. Peter the Sub Guy:

467. Herb wrote:
Again, this isn’t a political debate. This is a debate between people who can accept facts, and those who can’t.

Peter replies: For once I agree wth you. (Shocked silence from around the thread.) Because this ISN’T a political debate. It is a debate of law. I would be arguing the same thing if Hillery were the President-elect and valid questions of her circumstances of birth arose and were not properly addressed. I would say the same thing if Biden, or McCain or Palin or any of a dozen other prospective candidates had the same questions raised and did EVERYTHING in their power to BLOCK and IMPEDE all simple resolution of the problem in question. It all comes down to one simple thing: Obama could easily release the requested documentation and this would all go away in 30 seconds. If he is going to this much trouble to hide his birth certificate, what is he hiding? There must be something? Maybe not his place of birth, but SOMETHING smells rotten in this whole mess. What is it?

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:16 pm 484. Peter the Sub Guy:

474. Pundit Joe wrote:
So, in your eyes, based upon this quote and considering the context of you comment #423, are a person’s opinions are less legitimate because they have not served in the armed forces?

Peter responds: I believe what Chuck meant, and Chuck can correct me if I am wrong, but there seems to be an inordinant number of people on this thread, all of whome seem to be backers of The One, who are advocating that the Constitution should mean nothing in the context of this present potential crisis, and that is seems only those of us who have taken that oath, “…to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign AND domestic…” are taking this seriously. If you start to throw out one article of the Constitution because it gets in the way of annointing your messiah, what comes next? Just tear up the rest of the paper because by that point the whole thing is pretty meaningless?

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:23 pm 485. misanthropicus:

RE #457/cfbleachers: [...] You know, it’s surely a parlor game akin to the JFK assasination but it has some intriguing elements to it nonetheless. My issues with it all, stems not from any deep interest in the subject at hand, but rather, in the manner in which it has been handled. Had a Republican candidate presented for election the facts before us, I have not one single, solitary moment of doubt that it would have been handled in a polar opposite manner. [...]

cfbleachers: aferim! (Turkish: mighty right you are!)

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:23 pm 486. Peter the Sub Guy:

478. cedarford wrote:
That’s rich. A former submariner calling someone an idiot.

Again you ignore all the expats, families of religious Americans servibg overseas, people stationed overseas doing important civilian work for the Government, and US soldiers and families stationed out of allied nation’s bases, small bases lacking hospitals. Born in those country’s hospitals. Like my cousin, born to AF parents stationed at Gander.

Peter writes: Hey look, an idiot calling a Submarine Engineering Technician an idiot.

First off, try actually looking up the laws and regulations before making things up off the top of your head. As has been stated here MANY MANY MANY times, people who are born overseas, even to two US citizens, unless born under particular circumstances LIKE ON A US MILITARY BASE are NOT considered NATURAL BORN CITIZENS. See posting 460 Smarty.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:27 pm 487. Chris in Toronto:

I’d really like to thank Mr Moran for bringing forward some really awesome writing from cfbleachers, goy among a few others.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:28 pm 488. goy:

cfbleachers – thoroughly enjoyed #457 and appreciate your articulation of how I also feel about this issue. It is truly ironic that we self-governing citizens have no legal STANDING in this matter. Depressingly so.

Barry Kearns – you point out some critical details that I keep forgetting to mention myself: the difference between a certificate and a certification is not common knowledge. And in defense of simpletons like Herb – who can’t discern the difference between the phrases “American citizen” and “natural born Citizen” – and in defense of odious cretins like cedarford – who prefer to ignore the double standard as well as the fact that Obama’s father was NOT a U.S. citizen, so the jus sanguinis tenet doesn’t apply – it is easy to miss the word CERTIFICATION at the top of the JPG image BHO has offered as “proof” of his place of birth. And few people know that a certification can be amended – Michelle Malkin, Charles Johnson, Rick Moran and numerous others among them, apparently. That they apparently don’t wonder why BHO has spent almost a million dollars to keep his original COLB secret is simply mystifying, however.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:37 pm 489. misanthropicus:

RE #484/Peter the Sub Guy: [...] If he is going to this much trouble to hide his birth certificate, what is he hiding? There must be something? Maybe not his place of birth, but SOMETHING smells rotten in this whole mess. What is it? [...]

Sub Guy, also if we filter this situation through a risk/profit template we have a curious result: no matter how much liberals try to muffle the issue, and how much dba Obama spends on his legal obstruction of the case, he is already registering dents on his reputation from this situation, and this predicament cannot but grow, attendant expenses and political costs growing as well – wouldn’t (as you said, a $12.50 fee) be a better management of this crisis?

What makes the EXTREME DISPROPORTION between the cheap (financially & otherwise) possibility of solving this problem (price of a case of beer), and the very expensive path chosen by Obama the ALTERNATIVE HE CHOSED TO FOLLOW?

Herb & Cedarford welcome to creatively answer this question -

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:39 pm 490. Herb:

robotech master, pardon me if this is blunt, but you are a fool.

READ THE EFFING BIRTH CERTIFICATE:

It says in plain American English: Born in Honolulu at 7:24PM on August 4, 1961.

Is a birth certificate not official enough for you? What more do you want? It’s a vital record. It’s the definition of official!

Barry Kearns, do you have any evidence that Barack Obama’s birth certificate has been amended? No? Then what you have is speculation. Back to the drawing board, bud.

At least goy has the sac to claim the posted birth certificate was “likely forged,” although goy doesn’t seem to understand that a scan of ANY document is BY DEFINITION “digitally constructed.”

This part is just rich though: “NOT a scanned image of the vault copy of BHO’s COLB, which has been sealed by the Governor of Hawaii for undisclosed reasons. ”

Now we’re holding out for a “vault copy” of the birth certificate? Holy hell, people! And anyone with half a brain knows why the birth certificate has “been sealed.” It’s a private record! Of course it’s sealed!

You guys are too much. Nothing but speculation and logical loopholes. Any movement with you in the ranks is doomed.

Dec 7, 2008 - 2:40 pm 491. robotech master:

Herb reading the EFFING law

1. that birth cert can be legally altered to have him born on the moon

2. Their is huge debate if that is even a real copy of a birth cert and not a faked photoshop…

Hawaii even refuses to honor the birth cert you have presented as legal… why is it that hawaii doesn’t find the birth cert you posted legal enough for its purposes but its legally enough for everyone else?

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:09 pm 492. Peter the Sub Guy:

491. Herb wrote:
robotech master, pardon me if this is blunt, but you are a fool.

Peter replies: Herb, pardon me if this is blunt, but YOU are a fool!
READ THE EFFING THREAD!
What part of “It has also been pointed out that Hawaii allows the contents of Certification of Live Birth forms to be AMENDED. You can have the contents changed so that it no longer matches what was on your original birth certificate. One of the reasons for this is adoptions. In some cases, adoptive parents wish to create a “legal fiction”, and the law permits them to do so, changing birth data.” is just not getting through that thick melon you call a head???

What the certificate the so-called FactCheck.org presented can be AMENDED to say whatever Obama WANTS it to say. I could go to Hawai’i and get a certificate that says I was born on Pluto, does that make it TRUE?!?

The only thing that can tell, with certainty, where, when, to whom Obama was born is the certificate that Obama REFUSES to present to anyone who can verify its authenticity and that it states what he claims it states.

And you have yet to answer, in any rational manner, if the real and true vault copy birth certificate verifies that Obama was born in Hawai’i, thus making him a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN, then just WHAT is he hiding that he needs to keep this out of the public eye?

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:12 pm 493. Peter the Sub Guy:

491. Herb wrote:
Barry Kearns, do you have any evidence that Barack Obama’s birth certificate has been amended? No? Then what you have is speculation. Back to the drawing board, bud.

Peter responds (for what feels like the millionth time): Statements from Obama’s OWN family have brought his place of birth into doubt, thus making it seem that perhaps the certificate (not certifiCATION) may have been amended.

I’d really like to see where you would be arguing this from if it were McCain that this accusation was being brought against. i know I would still be arguing the same thing, that the vault copy certificate needs to be authenticated. Oh, but wait, McCain presented his certification whn asked, didn’t he? Heaven forbid (can I actually say that when referring to a Democrat?) that Obama should do likewise, right?

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:15 pm 494. Has Hawaiin Birth Certificate:

What’s been touted as Obama’s Birth Certifcate is most probably an abstract of the original. Why? Well, it says on the reverse side of the one provided that it’s either a true copy or an abstract; that’s what the State of Hawaii official affirmed.

Now, why do I say an abstract? Because, the name of the attending physician is not listed on the form that has been presented.

I have a Hawaiian BC; mine contains both the address of the Hospital where I was born and the signature of the attending physician that I was born at the place listed and at the date and time listed.

I speculate there are several reasons why such information was not listed:

1. The request did not ask for the physician information or attending physician information is not printed on the standard Hawaiian abstract. Or,
2. There was no attending physician. This would mean either Obama was not born in a Hospital (certainly possible) or he was not born in a Hawaiian Hospital (possible also).

Only by viewing an original would such questions be answered.

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:17 pm 495. Peter the Sub Guy:

491. Herb wrote:
Now we’re holding out for a “vault copy” of the birth certificate? Holy hell, people! And anyone with half a brain knows why the birth certificate has “been sealed.” It’s a private record! Of course it’s sealed!

Peter responds: (Sigh…) All I know, is if I were presented with a situation where, oh just say I was applying for a job, and that job for whatever reason needed to verify my original, vault-sealed birth certificate, I would authorize it be shown. And I’m JUST a privte citizen.

Obama is a PUBLIC FIGURE, who has spent the better part of his adult life running for PUBLIC OFFICE. Gee, perhaps he might realize that PUBLIC FIGURES get very little PRIVACY, don’t they. If he didn’t want people looking into his background, his recors, his transcripts and the last time he ate a Big Mac at McDonalds, then perhaps he should have chosen a different line of work, huh?

Why do I have to follow a law (show your info or don’t get hired) that to this point The One has been allowed to flounce?

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:21 pm 496. Malinda:

In reply to :

Jack

First, I am not an idiot anymore than you are; I respect your right to give your opinion.

I agree fully with you that we live in a modern society. I am very familiar with computers and their usage.

What I am pointing out is that the copy on Daily Kos, said to be altered and a fake, is not the original old-fashioned birth certificate of 1961 which gives in great detail information not provided on the computerized copy.

To settle the question of birth and citizenship, Obama should present a copy of the original document which carries all of the details of a certificate of 1961.

That is very little for citizens to ask of a would-be-President, now President-Elect.

Please think because you call others idiots.

Malinda you’re an idiot. You actually think when you request a copy of your birth certificate that you get a beat up, yellowed, aged looking document. No, you get a modern day copy that is then certified based on the info in the data base you nutjob. I got a copy of mine a couple years ago, it looks nothing like the copy I got when I went to the Navy years ago. We live in modern society you know. Computers run everything, so why wouldn’t it be a computer generated document? You Republican losers need to get lives, b4 you go insane, or is it too late?

N

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:22 pm 497. Rashputin:

Herb – “robotech master, pardon me if this is blunt, but you are a fool.”

Ah, you prove the old adage, “we see our faults in others”.
The “document” you have repeatedly referred to has been proven to have been tampered with, probably several times. In addition, it is a replication of a document type that did not exist in 1961, and would not have been substituted by the State of Hawaii as a means to replace a damaged or lost document in its own files. Add to that the fact that, as with many other certified documents, they cannot be accepted as valid unless the embossed stamp can be physically examined and you have a photocopy inferior to those that you can make on the average home copier. Until I saw the copy to which you refer analyzed, I, too, thought this was a silly issue. Upon seeing that falsification presented as fact, though, I became convinced that something was being covered up. Thank you for continuing to point others to the obvious fraud as it increases the ranks of those who want to see the real thing every time you refer to it.

May you pass as many photo copies of currency as you have hollow comments here and may each of them become a count on your federal criminal indictment. We would then all be able to follow your defense of yourself the same way you are now defending Hussein and see how right you are in your assertions.

Have a nice effing day

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:26 pm 498. Peter the Sub Guy:

478. cedarford wrote:
That’s rich. A former submariner calling someone an idiot.

Peter replies: And that statement right there proves to me you don’t have clue 1 of what it takes, both mentally and physically, to be a submariner.

I would be willing to make a bet you, cedarford, wouldn’t make it through week 1 of BESS, no less actually reaching a sea command.

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:33 pm 499. cedarford:

Pundit Joe on the obsessive Truther Pelto, now nearing his 90th comment on this thread:

So, in your eyes, based upon this quote and considering the context of you comment #423, are a person’s opinions are less legitimate because they have not served in the armed forces?

I honor and greatly appreciate your service, but the fact you have served and taken an oath doesn’t make you automatically right. Lee Harvey Oswald served, but he was also a terrible person. I’m not comparing you to Oswald, I’m just pointing out that service doesn’t give a person automatic legitimacy.

When I was in I had several discussions with people about the officer oath and whether it required VENERATION of the Constitution or simply respect for the laws and whether or not military people could personally object to parts of it.

My belief is (1)No veneration required; (2)Plenty of flaws exist in it like lifetime judge appointments, badly defined war powers role, obsolete sections, and of course matters like anchor babies and abortion; (3)military people could in good conscience object to elements of it and seek change, as long as they recognize they are bound to abide by extant authorities and law that spring from the document.(No VENERATION required).

The Truthers and Talmudic Law fans aside, I think most people recognize that the Constitution, like the Flag, is simply a proxy for the American People. It is not supreme over The People of the United States, it is just the current Operating Manual they go by, that the People can change by Amendment or by a new Constitutional Convention empowered to throw out or affirm as much of the 2nd Constitution we drafted as they want.

When we swear to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic, we do that oath where the Constitution is a proxy for The People, their Official Will, so to say. All while recognizing that few military actions have been required by the Constitution directly – they are mainly driven by events and politics OUTSIDE the scope of the Constitution. And each military officer recognizes without the political support of The People, and it’s funding by them, the military is nothing.

Pelto is on a high horse, Joe Pundit. If you assemble a pack of ex-junior officers, throw in some enlisteds and some civilians from military families – I guarantee half would have serious arguments with the things Pelto tries lording over “mere civilians” about WHAT threats and actions to correct them, in foreign and domestic areas, exist.

Are your opinions, having never served, as valid as Pelto’s? Yep. One person, one vote. I of course give more credence to a military person on military matters, military people on military matters I never dealt with or had expertise in when I was in – just as I defer to what my CPA says when we do tax filings…But no one should defer to a military person, especially an ex-military blowhard who claims their service makes them automatically right, or somehow more patriotic and heroic than the average American.
I went in to serve the American public, not to
emerge and claim my service made me superior in all my opinions to the average guy. In ROTC and in service, I met men of far greater military accomplishment than I could ever achieve, higher in rank, of exemplary, even exceptional service. They believed that they were public servants and they were also – humble.

Pundit. One person one vote. Don’t fall for a second for some ex-military blowhard pulling the “more patriotic than thou” crap.
**********************
Peter the Sub Guy – Well, 1st let me congratulate you, and express my relief on presuming you were a submariner. Most people labeling themselves “Peter the Sub Guy” are over in the BDSM adult sex threads. So I had this mental image of a bound Gimp in a leather mask with a hole cut out of the back of his pants (Pulp Fiction – Peter the Gimp…)

First off, try actually looking up the laws and regulations before making things up off the top of your head. As has been stated here MANY MANY MANY times, people who are born overseas, even to two US citizens, unless born under particular circumstances LIKE ON A US MILITARY BASE are NOT considered NATURAL BORN CITIZENS. See posting 460 Smarty.

As I wrote, Smarty appears not so smart on law. And you and other Truthers eagerly disregard facts and law not conveniently fitting your Secret Kenyan Birth Conspiracy Theory.

“As has been stated here MANY MANY MANY times..”

No, what you really mean is: “as has been stated here MANY,MANY, MANY times by Right-Wing Truthers”.
Another great flaw in the tangled minds of Truther nutballs. They think if they repeat something long enough, they make it true. Truthers go into mental vapor lock when asked to explain how we had “natural born” citizens prior to jus solis (right of citizenship by being born in a US State) being added to the Constitution in the late 1860s.

As even the most rudimentary student of Constitutional Law knows, Amendments do not cancel out existing rights when adding new ones, unless stated so in the Amendment. Thus the right to be considered natural born by the ancient law of jus sanguinis subject and citizen to the nation by blood – existed prior to the 14th Amendment, and valid afterwards.

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:43 pm 500. DJK:

I do wonder why Obama has spent millions of dollars on lawyers just to keep his original vault copy birth certificate sealed. If it is what it is, who cares?

Dec 7, 2008 - 3:48 pm 501. zanne:

I care and many other citizens do also. Your first part of your comment answered the second.

Dec 7, 2008 - 5:20 pm 502. Peter the Sub Guy:

500. cedarford wrote:
No, what you really mean is: “as has been stated here MANY,MANY, MANY times by Right-Wing Truthers”.

Peter replies: Hey cedarford, just because it has been stated by those on the right (and in point of fact a few on the left too) doesn’t make it any less true, in spite of your deepest fantasies.

Come back to reality, cedarford. Come back.

Dec 7, 2008 - 5:28 pm 503. Peter the Sub Guy:

501. DJK wrote:
I do wonder why Obama has spent millions of dollars on lawyers just to keep his original vault copy birth certificate sealed. If it is what it is, who cares?

Peter replies: EXACTLY the point many of those posting on this thread have been trying to make, but can’t seem to get through the thick skulls of others like cedarford and herb, and when they’re called on it all they can resort to is name-calling and reposting already debunked photoshop jobs.

Hey, herb, cedarford, why is it you simply cannot logically refute the basis of this entire thread? What is The One hiding? If it is not his place of birth (and I’m not saying it is) then what? Again, it would be SO simple to clear all this up, yet all he does is further obfuscate. Explain that!

Dec 7, 2008 - 5:32 pm 504. goy:

Herb:

- READ THE EFFING BIRTH CERTIFICATE

It’s not a birth certificate, Herb (effing or otherwise). It’s a certification. Not at all the definition of official. You may not comprehend the difference, but that’s most likely just what BHO is hoping if there’s anything hinky about his original Certificate of Live Birth. The image doesn’t prove where BHO was born nor does it necessarily even list his actual given name at birth which, per Occam’s guidance, was most likely “Barry Dunham”, not “Barack Hussein Obama II”.

Here’s another hint: in 1961, prior to the civil rights movement “African” was not one of the races typically listed on U.S. birth certificates. In 1961 Obama Sr. would have been listed as “Negro” or “Negroid”. Since you’re likely all of 18, it’s not surprising that you wouldn’t be aware of this.

You’re right about the “back to the drawing board” bit, however – BHO needs to go back to the drawing board and create a more believable copy of this document. Even better, he needs to release the original Certificate of Live Birth. Doubtful he’ll do that now, however, after he’s blown almost a million bucks trying to keep it a secret.

- goy doesn’t seem to understand that a scan of ANY document is BY DEFINITION “digitally constructed.”

Sorry, Herb. I do graphics composites on a regular basis. Here are a few. A scan is not at all digitally constructed – it’s a scan, as in functionally equivalent to an unaltered xerographic copy or FAX. Scans can be certified as equivalent to an original document by a notary, etc. If you took the time to click the link up above, you would realize that the image BHO has provided isn’t a scan at all, but shows evidence of having been put together from various image parts to create a composite image, e.g., in Photoshop, etc. You could start with this one (funny how the time of birth would automatically match BHO’s, huh?). That’s digitally constructed. Such an image can’t actually be certified as… well… anything.

- This part is just rich though: …

It’s “rich”… and accurate. A twofer! Kinda like “less filling – tastes great!”

- Now we’re holding out for a “vault copy” of the birth certificate?

You’re not paying attention. That’s been the case since this issue first emerged. But BHO keeps trying to pawn this Certification image off as “proof” of his natural born citizenship, which it’s not. Try actually reading some of the posts here Herb. Especially Barry Kearns’ #481. He’s put it about as clearly and simply as possible. Even you should be able to understand it with your half-brain. In short, the image provided by BHO doesn’t prove anything about his actual birth, since – at best – it’s a document that could have been legally amended at any time after Aug. 4, 1961. At worst it was thrown together by one of the Obama Campaign’s digital graphics artists – someone too young to have known that Obama Sr. would have been listed as “Negro”, not the twenty-first century, politically correct “African”.

Final note: “privacy” is one thing. But one doesn’t blow a million dollars on multiple law firms to hide an aspect of a past that should, by definition (and by Constitutional requirement), be open and accessible to the entire American voting public.

Dec 7, 2008 - 6:06 pm 505. Peter the Sub Guy:

And on that comment, goy (#505) I say good night.

Remember Pearl Harbor and remember everyone who has put their life on the line to defend this great nation since its birth on this anniversary.

Dec 7, 2008 - 7:12 pm 506. Steve Angell:

To 498. Rashputin:

If you think that looks fake you should look at his selective service fake registration http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2008/11/exclusive_did_n.html (thanks post 175). The form was from 1990 the 10 digit case number from 2008 then changed to an 11 digit number on the computer printout with a 8 inserted before the year portion of the number 08 to make it look like 1980 when it was supposedly filed. First SS said they had no information then it magically appeared several months later. They just happen to keep this information in Chicago.

My theory is and there are many facts to back it up. He spent most of his school years in Indonesia and was adopted by Soetoro add Barry Soetoro as he is registered in school there as Indonesian Muslim. Finally he moved to Hawaii to finnish High School using his Indonesian passport. in 1981 he went back to Indonesia to renew his passport to travel to Pakistan (as he writes in his book for three weeks with friends from there). He continued his graduate work as an Indonesian. Finally he decided to stay in America so became a Naturalized Citizen as Bill Richardson recently said.

He ran for Senate and won but also realized he needed to be a natural born citizen to become President. He then asked for his Birth Certificate from Hawaii but must have lied as request states you never renounced your citizenship but he had. He then filed required paperwork to change the name and add his “fathers” name to the certificate. But he still had a problem the new COLB still had notations on it that it had been updated and a history of such on Page 2. Thus he knew he was screwed. A lawyer friend of his then wrote an article about how the requirements were so old fashioned and such. A movement was even started to change the law. It all failed. He then challenged McCain as McCain was born in Panama. Of course McCain provided proof but a trap had been set. He then could say how silly that was and thus he shouldn’t have to submit any stupid proof. He was asked for proof so he eventually had a fake made. His friends in Chicago at factcheck.org later even lied saying they had seen the certification and it was real.

It amazes me he is getting away with this.

I wonder. Is this really the USA or am I somehow in the middle of a dream and it is the USSR.

Am I really reading Newspapers or Pravda.

Have our students been so dumbed down that they were not taught in school as I was that some of us could never become President. My wife can’t she was born to a Canadian Citizen. There were a few in that class that couldn’t having been born in Mexico and Germany.

Now we come to this. Barack by his own story is not qualified to be President his Father was not a citizen of the USA thus he was not “natural born” it is as simple as that. Both parents must be citizens not just one. No father on your certificate sorry. We are better off not letting a few become President. The last thing the founders of this Nation wanted is for someone with any chance of being allied with another country to become President. Think of this had Barack Sr been King and still alive Barack Jr. could be President of the US and King of Kenya at the same time.

Dec 7, 2008 - 9:07 pm 507. Chris in Toronto:

Well said, Steve A!

Dec 8, 2008 - 5:55 am 508. goy:

- It amazes me he is getting away with this.

Take a glance at all BHO has gotten away with, and all he has kept hidden: throughout his political career, during the Democratic primaries, the outrageous lies and online campaign funding fraud he perpetrated during the general election. This particular issue – despite its potential to create a Constitutional crisis – pales in comparison.

Working in BHO’s favor is the fact that the details are especially confusing, given the convoluted nature of Hawaii’s birth record laws, forms, certificates and certifications, and the general public’s lamentable ignorance (see Herb’s statements) regarding the difference between “American citizen” and “natural born Citizen” (cedarfraud’s incessant whining about jus sanguinis aside, which doesn’t apply here because BHO Sr. was not a U.S. citizen – in 1961, if little Barry was actually born in Kenya – as his relatives and the Kenyan ambassador all claim – he would have been considered the son of a Kenyan man, not the son of his American wife).

What’s more, there’s no “conspiracy” required for BHO to get away with this – the nature of the issue is such that it naturally obfuscates the truth and, thus, is fertile ground over which to mislead the mob – who desperately want to be led (and they don’t seem to much care where).

The Democrats – absent any conspiracy – have done precisely the same with the credit fiasco and the economy in general.

They did the same with Clinton: the impeachment wasn’t about illicit BJs on the taxpayer’s dime (it was about perjury).

They did the same with Iraq: Saddam’s WMD programs – later confirmed in spades by Duelfer – and his documented use thereof were the primary factor that justified military force (not “stockpiles” which were never found).

They did the same with the Gonzalez AG firings: he was raked over the coals and forced to resign for doing exactly what his predecessors had done because he pursued the actions on an unprecedented schedule determined by his boss (this is one of those things that really was All Bush’s Fault® – and caused by his lame attempts to be “compassionate” and “bipartisan”, thus delaying AG firings that had previously always taken place at ’standard’ points in the administration lifecycle).

They did the same with the Plamegate scandal: many people are still being led to believe that Scooter Libby was convicted for “outing” career desk-jockey Valerie Plame (Libby was “convicted” of perjury; Colin Powell’s deputy SoS – Richard Armitage – “outed” her, breaking no laws in the process. Fitzgerald was aware of this fact – which was the one thing he was tasked with discovering – almost from the beginning of his subsequently years-long fishing expedition, which provided constant media fodder for the 24/7 Bush demonization cycle).

They did the same with the Hamas / Hez’b'allah attacks on Israel: focusing on Israel’s response and calling it “disproportionate” (as if one is supposed to defend onesself and win a military conflict some other way).

The list goes endlessly and depressingly on. This is just another brick in the wall.

No, what amazes me is the cast of normally highly critical thinkers who are comatose at the keyboard on this issue: Malkin, Johnson, Morrissey, etc. – they have all gone brain-dead on this for some reason.

And what’s worse, and most insulting, they have taken the Climate Crisistians’ approach in writing about it. That is, they’re attempting to shut down the discussion by labeling as a crackpot (e.g., “Truther”) anyone who dares to demand that the letter of the Constitution be honored. Absent any real facts, like Moran they’ve retreated to an ad hominem insanity-by-association fallacy because one (one!) of those who filed a lawsuit – currently being considered by the SCOTUS – is a so-called “9/11 Truther”.

To date, however, none of these people has ever actually addressed the issue itself, or pointed to any evidence whatsoever showing that BHO has EVER proved his eligibility to serve in the Office of POTUS per Article II by releasing the original, vault copy of his COLB for public scrutiny. He has pursued hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal action to do exactly the opposite! And no one seems to wonder why.

I’m not interested in hearing “counter-evidence” about where BHO was or was not born. Both sides of that discussion are pure speculation precisely because BHO has worked so hard and spent so much of other people’s money hiding his past. I’d simply like to see the evidence that BHO has EVER proved his citizenship status to those who elected him. Sorry, but his lamely photoshopped JPG depicting the facsimile of a legally amendable document doesn’t qualify.

I have friends who are “9/11 Truthers”. We argue about the topic all the time. I see and understand their reasons and I disagree with them. Likewise, I have friends who are creationists. Even some who are lifelong socialists. We engage in productive conversation about other topics like military history, aviation, the space program, online gaming, economics, health care, music and comic books all the time. We listen to each other’s ideas and even when we don’t agree on something, we learn from each other. We even synergize new ideas from our differences. Most of all, we remain friends. This is how most intelligent people interact, in my experience. So I’m sorry, but the “9/11 Truther” cop-out simply doesn’t wash. It’s just a little too thoughtless and too desperate.

All I can figure is that the major bloggers who are comatose on this issue are exorcising their own guilt and/or desperate to find the reasons for the huge loss on 11/4. They lost so big and so avoidably and so embarrassingly last month that it’s still not quite real. I felt it too, so I know.

But some folks are simply dying to admit how flawed (they and) their fellows are as a result, and this is a perfect opportunity. They write, “see – we have our whackos too! zOMG!! That’s part of why we lost!! It’s those goddamed creationists!! And those Truthers!! In fact here’s one now! He thinks BHO was born in Kenya just because the Kenyan Ambassador and a few members of BHO’s family say he was, and because BHO has never proved otherwise. For G-d’s sakes!! What an idiot!”

All just psychobabble speculation of course, but given that someone who detected the fakery in Dan Rather’s TANG documents can’t see the obvious flaws in BHO’s Certification JPG, let alone the fact that even a non-forged version of that JPG is anything but proof of natural born citizenship, I’m having trouble coming up with an alternative explanation.

Dec 8, 2008 - 8:40 am 509. Barry Kearns:

Herb wrote: “READ THE EFFING BIRTH CERTIFICATE: It says in plain American English: Born in Honolulu at 7:24PM on August 4, 1961. Is a birth certificate not official enough for you? What more do you want? It’s a vital record. It’s the definition of official! Barry Kearns, do you have any evidence that Barack Obama’s birth certificate has been amended? No? Then what you have is speculation. Back to the drawing board, bud.”

The evidence that I have is that the document released, while “valid”, is not a document that is “official enough” for the STATE OF HAWAII ITSELF to serve as proof that someone was actually born in Hawaii… even IF that “valid” document states clearly that the person was born in Honolulu.

That’s the point that you continue to evade. If that document is not “official enough” to prove to State of Hawaii employees that someone was born in Hawaii, why should anyone else treat it as “official enough” to prove that?

There is a document that IS “official enough” to satisfy State of Hawaii employees that someone was actually born in Hawaii… it’s the long-form, unamended Certificate of Live Birth. Vault copies of these documents are stored on microfiche, and copies of these can be released to those who have a tangible interest in that vital record for a nominal fee.

I don’t personally have such a tangible interest… but whoever legally has the obligation to verify compliance with the requirements set forth in Article II, Section I of the Constitution DOES.

Since there appears to be no other agency which is vested with that responsibility, it looks like the Supreme Court may have to step in and take on that role in this dispute. The vital record in question should therefore be released to the Supreme Court.

If for no other reason than to prevent this issue hounding him forever, Obama should step forward and go “above and beyond”, and release the document publicly. He may not be legally required to show it to everyone, but at a bare minimum he should be compelled to show it to the appropriate legal authorities who are vested with determining whether he is eligible to hold the office to which he has been elected.

Showing the whole thing publicly could go a long, long way towards quashing this, and anyone clinging on to this afterwards might be legitimately lumped in with Trig-conspirators and 9/11 Truthers. In the absence of it, we have a curious set of behaviors that arouse more curiosity the longer they go on.

My only interest is in ensuring that the provisions of the Constitution are followed. As Brandeis noted, we are a nation of laws, not of men. No man should be above the law, not even one with as fervent of a following as Obama. Perhaps even more so, in that case.

Dec 8, 2008 - 8:51 am 510. Brent:

This article is complete rubbish that denies all the pertinent information to this case. The question here is not whether Obama is an American citizen. It is whether he was a “natural born” citizen. A birth notice in a newspaper proves nothing as any fool would know. The birth notice only gives the address of his parents, not the hospital. Also Hawaii was KNOWN in the 60s to give “Certificates of Live Birth” to individuals not physically born in Hawaii. All that proves is one or both of his parents were residents of Hawaii. That is NOT the question. ONLY, and I repeat ONLY an original birth certificate listing the hospital where he was born with the signature of the doctor who delivered him is legally acceptable proof of natural born citizenship. Obama has no compelling reason to reject this request. The most logical reasons for a rejection are 1) he has something to hide or 2) he has no respect for the rigid requirements of the Constitution. If either of these statements is true he is in no way shape or form qualified to be President of the United States. If reason number 1 is true, he is an usurper. If reason number 2 is true, he will commit perjury as his first act of office when he swears to uphold the Constitution and should thus be immediately impeached. This is not about politics. This is not a “fringe” position of the “kooky right.” Not unless millions of Americans who doubt Obama’s natural born status are “fringe.” This case is about whether or not we will remain a Constitutional republic or subject ourselves to what the Founding Fathers considered “mob rule.” Such a government would by definition be tyrannous and not subject to any loyalty or obedience by the American people. There is one, very easy way to settle all this. Produce the certificate and write a new law to require an original birth certificate be produced for every single candidate for President in the future to ensure the Constitution is obeyed.

Dec 8, 2008 - 9:24 am 511. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Rashputin
RE: Sadly….

To them, a law, a contract, their word, their oath; all are just convenient tools available to aid in their deceiving others who may still believe in such things. — Rashputin

….you’re grasp of the situation is all to accurate.

These people, including our beloved cedarford, are nothing but the liars and scoundrels we were warned about.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble. -- Proverbs]

Dec 8, 2008 - 9:36 am 512. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Peter the Sub Guy
RE: On the….

I believe what Chuck meant, and Chuck can correct me if I am wrong, but there seems to be an inordinant number of people on this thread, all of whome seem to be backers of The One, who are advocating that the Constitution should mean nothing in the context of this present potential crisis, and that is seems only those of us who have taken that oath, “…to protect the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign AND domestic…” are taking this seriously. — Peter the Sub Guy to Herb the guy who lies about not bothering with US here anymore….

…nosy.

Furthermore, it’s pretty obvious that Herb is just a simple liar in all instances regarding this matter. As well as being particularly obtuse.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise. -- Proverbs]

Dec 8, 2008 - 9:42 am 513. fear Obama:

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court has turned down an emergency appeal from a New Jersey man who says President-elect Barack Obama is ineligible to be president because he was a British subject at birth.
The court did not comment on its order Monday rejecting the call by Leo Donofrio of East Brunswick, N.J., to intervene in the presidential election. Donofrio says that since Obama had dual nationality at birth – his mother was American and his Kenyan father at the time was a British subject – he cannot possibly be a “natural born citizen,” one of the requirements the Constitution lists for eligibility to be president.

Supremest Clowns don’t have time-
Big debate on Anti-Pledge or some other crap.
Senate Democrats would never……..
just forget it, just go AWAY.

Dec 8, 2008 - 9:52 am 514. robotech master:

I guess short of someone in schofield barracks rallying some guys and going in and demanding the birth cert… or civil war this matter will not be closed.

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:08 am 515. Rashputin:

fear Obama -

That’s OK, it clears up all the false hopes people still had about the system working as intended. Now Warren only needs guns and money for the chit has hit the fan.

Regards

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:40 am 516. Chris in Toronto:

Was anybody watching what was happening behind the scenes with the Supremes over the weekend? Who was meeting with whom? This sounds like a fix has been put in. If not the Supremes, then who is to finally determine eligibility? Who?

Next step? A tax strike?

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:41 am 517. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: Jokes in Poor Taste and Apologies

I Perhaps my original joke was in poor taste and for that I apologize…. — Pundit Joe

Yes. It was in extremely poor taste, that business about bestiality involving Big Foot. And I’m certain he feels the same.

For my part, your apology is accepted. You’ll have to contact Big Foot for his acceptance.

RE: The Core Meaning

….but the core meaning of the comment, as explained, I believe to be true. I’m content to have others judge my comments. — Pundit Joe

You’re welcome to your opinion. As long as Obama allows you to express it. And we’ll see about that over the next year or so, barring someone wising up to the necessity of abiding by the Law, as stated in the Constitution.

I’m confident that what transpired in the run-up to the election, where the Obamabots were trying to shut down television stations and the like with legal action over ads that cast a The One in a bad light will continue and get even more obstreperous.

Of course, it is a might difficult for you to claim the high ground when your posts are laced with personal insults and attacks. “Rules for me and rules for thee” – is that at work here? — Pundit Joe

Hardly. You attacked US. So the word ‘reciprocity’ came into play. You don’t care for that? Well….maybe you should think ahead next time.

RE: A Last Question

I would like to ask one last question though in order to clarify one of your quotes in comment #463,”…when did YOU do anything for US? Anything like swearing that the Constitution of the United States means more to you than your very life?”

I So, in your eyes, based upon this quote and considering the context of you comment #423, are a person’s opinions are less legitimate because they have not served in the armed forces? — Pundit Joe

Try not to put words into my mouth. It makes you look foolish.

In item #423 (above) I replied to your quip about not taking this ‘personally’. NOW you’re trying to twist my response to you around to look like I’m saying you have no say. That’s foolishness and a lie.

I just asked you what you’ve done for US. And you reply with that. So I guess you’ve never done anything for US. And your reply is just evasion to avoid having to admit to that.

I honor and greatly appreciate your service…. — Pundit Joe

Based on your latest (see reply to comment immediately above this quote), I tend to doubt that.

….but the fact you have served and taken an oath doesn’t make you automatically right. Lee Harvey Oswald served, but he was also a terrible person. — Pundit Joe

Timothy McVeigh did too.

What’s your point? That you avoided service to US in order to not be painted with this particular brush?

I’m not comparing you to Oswald, I’m just pointing out that service doesn’t give a person automatic legitimacy. — Pundit Joe

No. Service is just an indicator of how far someone is willing to go in order to ‘uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic’.

But, as we’ve seen with cedarford here, as well as your mentioning of Lee Harvey Oswald and my mention of Timothy McVeigh, it’s just an indicator. It takes a bit more than mouthing the words to make a true patriot, instead of a ‘fair-weather’ one.

You are free to look down upon the law abiding, hard working, tax paying citizenry all you like, but I won’t. I honor all that work hard for this country. — Pundit Joe

Still don’t quite get it. And still projecting insults.

I honor the honest, hardworking people as well. After all, is not an honest, hardworking, taxpaying soldier one as well? [Note: Why am I suddenly reminded of Shakespeare’s Shylock, ”Hath not a Jew eyes? Cut me. Do I not bleed?”]

Hey. I’ve been a green n-word for 27 years. I was more looked down upon by a lot of ‘honest, hardworking taxpayers’. Even spat upon on occasion.

But I treat individuals as individuals. They all start out on the same level as I hold myself, until they prove themselves otherwise, as you did initially.

I don’t expect nor do I ask you to apologize to me, but won’t you at least apologize to all the other hard working American’s out there you dismissed with your comment?. — Pundit Joe

As I haven’t insulted them in the first place, why do you call upon me to apologize for something I haven’t done? Or are you feeling guilty about never having been a soldier?

I I’m sorry you are such an angry person. — Pundit Joe

You have yet to see me ‘angry’. I’ve BEEN angry in the past. I know HOW to be angry. And how to use such anger as an effective tool to ‘motivate’ people. However, there are very few times when I’ve been a real RAGE. One time was when some idiot tried to throw me off of the balcony of his home onto some rather large rocks about 10 feet below. The drunken fool ended up on his back, six feet back into the hallway of his house. His attempt to murder me seriously enraged me. But I didn’t pursue him across the threshold of his home. I just stormed off, cursing a blue streak that almost tripped me up as it ran past me to get to his dripping blood.

I’m sorry you feel contempt for me and others like me. — Pundit Joe

The only contempt here is that which you bring on yourself. As the others bring onto themselves.

RE: The Future

I won’t try to change your mind nor will I respond to any of your future comments. — Pundit Joe

You’re welcome to do as you see fit. Not my problem.

You are free to believe in conspiracies and to be consumed by anger. I cannot stop you, but neither will I take part in your obsession. — Pundit Joe

No conspiracy here. Just a lack of proof that Obama is a natural-born citizen of the United States.

Provide the signed and sealed birth certificate and all this will go away.

It’s REALLY that simple.

I suspect you have a long and bitter road ahead as you will likely continue to cling tightly to this issue and never receive the resolution you so strongly desire. Good luck. — Pundit Joe

Don’t place any bets on that.

In the first place, the only bitterness is what you’re attempting to project onto m. As for this issue, I’m confident that there are going to be PLENTY of people looking for the document. So many that this issue will not go away until The One produces a bona fide copy of it. Who knows….maybe with the help of the good offices of the CIA and FBI they can finally fabricate one that will stand up to forensic examination.

But then they’ll have to kill everyone who knows about said fabrication. Otherwise all hell would break out.

The point here being that if it is ever proven that Obama WAS born in Kenya, then he will have to be removed from the Oval Office. And that could happen at ANY time.

And if it does happen, the Democratic Party is on every honest American’s shi’ite-list.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]

P.S. Especially if the National Enquirer and Drudge are looking for it. Just ask Mr. Bill about Monica……

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:42 am 518. goy:

In my mind there’s only one pertinent question: has BHO ever released original, official documentation – as McCain did – that verifies his Article II eligibility?

There are only two possible answers to that question: yes or no.

If yes, then all we need is for someone to kindly point to the evidence that verifies who’s seen it and where they have attested to the information contained therein.

I would contend the answer is no even if all I had to go on was the fact that the shame-blinded, self-loathing blogosphere bigshots like Malkin, Johnson, Morrissey, Moran and others would have produced the evidence by now if it existed.

But the fact is that I know the answer is no, because BHO would not have spent almost $1,000,000.00 this year to avoid releasing said documentation if it had already been released. Duh. Either that or he really is an idiot who has no business anywhere near the federal budget.

If anyone else would like to play, here are the rules:

Lamely photoshopped JPGs depicting facsimiles of a irrelevant, documents that are legally amendable at any time by those they identify don’t qualify.

Newspaper clippings listing births that could have occurred anywhere in the world don’t qualify.

Pictures of BHO in Hawaii when he was already old enough to walk or ride a tricycle don’t qualify.

Irrelevant statements about anything other than BHO’s long-form COLB by anyone named Fukino don’t qualify.

FactCheck.org’s word doesn’t qualify.

Snopes.com’s word doesn’t qualify.

BHO’s word doesn’t qualify, above all. He is not a credible source of information. He’s lied about everything from public campaign financing, to Billy Ayers, to Rev. Wright, to tax cuts for 95% of the country, to severing ties with Robert Malley, to pulling our armed forces out of Iraq. These lies have all been pointed out by the same cast of conservatives who now call people “Truther” for demanding that the Constitution be honored to the letter. That any one of them would take BHO’s word on this issue is ludicrous on its face.

Next time some hack wants to play the “Truther” card, kindly have this evidence handy or expect to be laughed at.

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:44 am 519. Chuck Pelto:

TO: fear Obama
RE: The Supremes

Supremest Clowns don’t have time- — fear Obama

My understanding of the Supremes is that they tend NOT to take cases that do not involve (1) two lower federal courts disagreeing on the same issue or (2) someone is about to lose their life by execution and there is a matter of the Constitution at play.

I didn’t put much confidence in this case being put to them in the first place. It should have been argued in ever state in the Union first and then, if there was a contradiction, moved to the next level.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. I still favor taking the matter up with every member of the Electoral College.

But even then, if Obama is inaugurated, this matter doesn’t simply die. All it would take is credible proof that he was born in Kenya, or some state official or other in Hawaii to say he never had an authentic birth certificate issued from that state saying he was born there. Or that such a document is a forgery.

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:46 am 520. bigmck:

Herb wrote: “READ THE EFFING BIRTH CERTIFICATE: It says in plain American English: Born in Honolulu at 7:24PM on August 4, 1961. Is a birth certificate not official enough for you? What more do you want? It’s a vital record. It’s the definition of official! Barry Kearns, do you have any evidence that Barack Obama’s birth certificate has been amended? No? Then what you have is speculation. Back to the drawing board, bud.”

==========================================

Even if the BC is valid, that does not make him “natural born”. At the time of his birth, US law said one parent had to be a citizen and a 10 year resident of the USA with five of those years after he/she turned 16 in order for the child to be a citizen. His mother did not meet that requirement. The whole thing stinks.

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:49 am 521. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Steve Angell, et al.
RE: These Items….

….of evidence being linked to…

…we should all capture these pages for future reference.

Why?

Well, if my concern about Obama’s control of information regarding him is correct, then these pages will likely become ‘disappeared’ within the next year or so.

So, visit the sites and save the pages to a folder on your machine for future reference. And because I’m confident that the NSA can look inside your machine….not to mention doing things thereon, I would also recommend saving such a folder to a CD or DVD, if you have the ability to burn such. Someplace they might not be able to ‘reach’, without being physically present.

Why do I say this? Oh….maybe it has something to do with (1) finding 49 unregistered users on my computer on occasion and (2) Apple no longer providing a way to identify such users in their OS X. [Note: You could do that in OS Classic, but not in OS X. And after asking Apple about that they never got back to me on the matter.]

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A healthy sense of paranoia keeps a soldier alive on the field of battle.]

P.S. And if you don’t think politics is a ‘battle’, you must have been born yesterday……

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:53 am 522. Robert Hurley:

Interesting article for the NR about this controversy.

“The birth-certificate zealots are essentially arguing that 64 million voters should be disenfranchised because of a contested technicality as to whether Obama was born on U.S. soil. (McCain narrowly escaped the problem by being born in the Panama Canal zone, which is no longer American.)

What difference does it make to the future of this country whether Obama was born on U.S. soil? Advocates of this destructive campaign will argue that the constitutional principle regarding the qualifications for president trumps all others. But how viable will our Constitution be if five Supreme Court justices should decide to void 64 million ballots?

Conservatives are supposed to respect the organic nature of human societies. Ours has been riven by profound disagreements that have been deepening over many years. We are divided not only about political facts and social values, but also about what the Constitution itself means. The crusaders on this issue choose to ignore these problems and are proposing to deny the will of 64 million voters by appealing to five Supreme Court Justices (since no one is delusional enough to think that the four liberal justices are going to take the presidency away from Obama). What kind of conservatism is this?

It is not conservatism; it is sore loserism and quite radical in its intent. Respect for election results is one of the most durable bulwarks of our unity as a nation. Conservatives need to accept the fact that we lost the election, and get over it; and get on with the important business of reviving our country’s economy and defending its citizens, and — by the way — its Constitution.”

— David Horowitz

Dec 8, 2008 - 10:55 am 523. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Robert Hurley
RE: Short-Term Memory Loss?

That canard was discussed here earlier. But I guess you can’t remember that.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Interesting comment there, that the Law is a ‘technicality’.

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:10 am 524. robotech master:

Horowitz argument only some laws and requirement listed in the constitution are important… and the fact that the FEC and other let those 64 million voter down… and obama and the DNC who broke the LAW is ok…. Its also ok to disenfranchise the 58 million voters who thought elections were suppose to have laws and rules to prevent cheating and such…

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:28 am 525. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Additional Indicators

It seems that the web-site on how to get a Birth Certificate from Hawaii is, oddly enough, ‘down’ at this time.

I followed the US Government web-site for acquiring a passport to the Hawai’i State Department of Health to discover they are incapable of providing ANY information at this time.

They might be having their web-meister working hard to ‘fix’ things.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[I believe in coincidence. I just don't trust it. -- Garrak, Tailor/Tinker/Soldier/Spy on ST:DS9]

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:32 am 526. Robert Hurley:

Chuch:

You are beating a dead horse with this argument and appealing only to the 100 other birth certificate zealots. I know it is a valient group. but there comes a time when even the zealots have to move on as everyone else is concerned about issues that are important. You never took up my bet; so I guess you really don’t believe in this nonsense either

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:43 am 527. robotech master:

This was posted in another forum by rotarymunkey

I have been very outspoken on this issue: Obama the Dual Citizen is not a “Natural Born citizen” by the text of the U.S. Constitution.

So has SCOTUS punted the issue? Hardly.

First, the DNC and Secs of State for the 50 States around this union were charged under ELECTION LAW to certify the candidates. That is to say, they are NOT ordered to do this by the Constitution. They are only ordered by state law.

Only the Electoral College is, by the text of the Constitution and its Amendments. So, to SCOTUS, the real issue is, what will the Electoral College do? Will they certify the candidates, or simply elect a President-elect and a VP-elect. After that point, CONGRESS must certify the results of the election. Once that occurs, but BEFORE a President Obama could be sworn in, someone in the MILITARY, or a JUDGE, could then, take umbrage with Obama, claiming that they cannot uphold their Constitutional Oath if Obama is seated. This claim would have legal and Constitutional standing in Federal court, as the Constitutional Oath is a Federally-issued one.

Yes, this would be a “Constitutional-Crisis”, which is why the Supremes would be interested.

By the Constitution, a CITIZEN has no say in this matter. Only someone SWORN to uphold the Constitution can object to the seating of a non-Natural Born citizen, as their options become limited at that point. They are charged by law to act to uphold their oath to protect the Constitution. As no one would be allowed by the Secret Service to physically act, the only open option would be a legal recourse.

Donofrio attempted to have the New Jersey ballots invalidated due to the non-certification process exhibited by the NJ Sec of State, which by law as a NJ resident, he could challenge in court. There were flaws in the lower court’s handling of his case, including a mischaracterization of his case by the clerk of the court. With these issues, unfortunately, it’s unlikely SCOTUS would hear the case.

The Cort case remakes Donofrio’s argument, is on Justice Scalia’s desk right now, and could still see the light of day.

For the reasons above, I believe only someone who MUST act, due to the Constitutional Oath, will have proper legal standing, in the eyes of the Supreme Court.”

I have thought about this many times as a debate how I personally will deal with this… as a soldier their is no one with higher standing(many with equal) on constitutional issue then us… does one have to be active in order to issue this challenge… if soldiers wished to issue this berg or maybe one of the other already trying would they offer to do the legal ground game for it?

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:49 am 528. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Pundit Joe
RE: An Additional Thought….

….for your consideration.

If I’m supposed to hold all the other citizens of this country in such contempt….

Out of curiosity….

…why was I willing to put myself in ‘harms way’ for them?

Maybe I’m ’stupid’, but I tend to doubt it. Or maybe I have a death wish, but I could have fulfilled that MANY times while ‘in harness’. Let alone escaping the Grim One two days after I retired, when an 18-wheeler tried to climb into my lap while driving down I-25.

[Note: Actually....I'm in 'extended play' mode as I was supposed to die of an A-V block heart stoppage at 0618 hrs, Monday, 18 September 2004. But for some strange reason, several months earlier it was determined I HAD an A-V block and a pace-maker was installed. Yes...Virginia....I'm an early prototype of the Borg. The first regular check-up of the pace-maker discovered that my heart had 'malfunctioned' for five minutes. Probably while I was on the eliptical skier in the household gym.

I've lost two colonels to such an event. Colonel Stang, my former 82d Airborne brigade commander died at his desk shortly after coming back from his noon-time racketball game and Lieutenant Colonel Edmonson who was a marathoner and found crumpled up along his morning 'constitutional' route.]

But enough about ME….

…why is it YOU think I disdain those I’m willing to lay down my life for?

Again. I suspect you have hatred for me because you never had what it takes to hang your a– out on the line for someone else. Or to do it in so bold a manner.

That would go far in explaining your continual digression into the thought that I ‘hate’ or have ‘anger’ or ‘disdain’ for people….when indeed, I don’t.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. Thanks for bringing that out. It took a bit of soul searching to make sure there wasn’t something hidden inside of me that I might need to purge. But, indeed, there isn’t and you seem to be ‘projecting’.

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:55 am 529. goy:

CBP:

- … if Obama is inaugurated, this matter doesn’t simply die …

Exactly.

Any country that doesn’t like something the U.S. has done, for any reason, can point to this issue with a legitimate claim that the current U.S. government is of questionable validity.

The real “Truthers” (like these whackos – the survivalists and wannabe, armed-to-the-teeth militia) will have reason to go even more apoplectic, claiming that this whole thing is a set-up to implement martial law, shadow government, new world order, yada yada yada…

In fact, if it turns out there’s anything at all hinky about BHO’s original long-form COLB, and that hinkiness is not revealed before next Monday (or 1/20/09 at the latest), the stakes are raised by an order of magnitude. Because whichever official entity has control of the original long-form COLB (or verifiable copies) will have BHO so far over a barrel his beady little eyes will bug out.

Oh, and if these pages are ‘disappeared’ per your concerns, well at that point you can probably kiss any use for saved copies good-bye.

.

Hurley:

You realize of course that Horowitz’ statements are utter nonsense, right? You understand that he is stating outright that he couldn’t care less what’s written in the Constitution of the United States, yes?

After all the groundless whining about how Bush has broken the law, suspended/violated habeas corpus, claimed (sans evidence) that he said the Constitution was “just a goddamned piece of paper”, etc., any leftist or so-called liberal has lost all remaining credibility by agreeing with bullsh!t like this. Do you?

Either way, Horowitz is simply projecting his own ignorance on this issue. As many people are. He’s arguing for mob rule, not the rule of law. It’s sad and pathetic, really. Those who want to see the letter of the Constitution honored – whom he ridicules with the ad hominem “birth certificate zealot” because he doesn’t have any actual facts to support his assertions – aren’t arguing for “disenfranchisement”. And he frelling well knows it.

The fact is that those 64 million voters were lied to when they were allowed to assume that BHO had proved – as McCain actually did – that he’s eligible to hold the Office of the POTUS. He has done no such thing. If anyone has “disenfranchised” them, it was BHO himself.

Horowitz contradicts himself. He can’t ask “What difference does it make to the future of this country whether Obama was born on U.S. soil?” and then turn around and state “Conservatives need to … get on with the important business of … defending … [the] Constitution.” The two are mutually exclusive. Horowitz’ failed attempt to redefine Conservatism as an ideology that ignores the letter of the Constitution is vile and disgusting.

Dec 8, 2008 - 11:58 am 530. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Robert Hurley
RE: Yeah….Right….

You are beating a dead horse with this argument and appealing only to the 100 other birth certificate zealots. — Robert Hurley

If it’s such a ‘dead horse’….

….why do you keep attempting to revive it and trotting it around here? That is with that National Review article….

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[A whip for a horse, a bridle for a ass, and a rod for a fool's back. -- Proverbs]

Dec 8, 2008 - 12:00 pm 531. Rashputin:

obotech master – “The Cort case remakes Donofrio’s argument, is on Justice Scalia’s desk right now, and could still see the light of day.”

~~~Date~~~ ~~~~~~~Proceedings and Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nov 25 2008 Application (08A469) for stay and/or injunction,
submitted to Justice Ginsburg.
Nov 26 2008 Application (08A469) denied by Justice Ginsburg.
Nov 29 2008 Application (08A469) refiled and submitted to
Justice Scalia.
Dec 8 2008 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of December 12, 2008.
Dec 8 2008 Application (08A469) referred to the Court by
Justice Scalia.

Apparently, they may have disliked the way the question was framed rather than the question itself. We may be able to wait a while longer before we sing along with Warren Zevon after all.

Regards

Dec 8, 2008 - 12:07 pm 532. robotech master:

O here comes the ownage…. for the first time ever a state official has state obama’s citizen status… hes an immigrant…(at least according to this governor guy person thing…)

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/12/huh_what_does_bill_richardson.html

December 07, 2008
Huh? What does Bill Richardson mean?
Thomas Lifson
New Mexico governor and Obama Secretary of Commerce-designate Bill Richardson has some ’splainin’ to do. French television recorded him saying (in Spanish) that “Obama is an immigrant” (so Hispanics can relate to him).

Is the Governor being fitted for a tinfoil hat? Does he believe that Obama was actually born in Kenya, as some contend (to general disdain from the media)?

Or does the Governor somehow believe that nonwhite (or even half-nonwhite) Americans are not real Americans?

Or is there some other explanation for this faux pas?

Watch the YouTube clip and decide for yourself what on earth the Governor meant.

Don’t hold your breath waiting for the mainstream media to demand clarification. This one is bound for the Memory Hole.

Hat tip: Joan Sharon, Larwyn

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:06 pm 533. Robert Hurley:

When I need a laugh I know I can always depend on you guys to lighten up my day. I wonder how a psychiatrist would psychoanalyse all of you. I hope that a social psychiatrist uses the data here for a good study of how delusion spreads.

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:06 pm 534. Robert Hurley:

When I need a laugh I know I can always depend on you guys to lighten up my day. I wonder how a psychiatrist would psychoanalyse all of you. I hope that a social psychiatrist uses the data here for a good study of how delusion spreads.

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:06 pm 535. robotech master:

O here comes the ownage…. for the first time ever a state official has state obama’s citizen status… hes an immigrant…(at least according to this governor guy person thing…)

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/12/huh_what_does_bill_richardson.html

December 07, 2008
Huh? What does Bill Richardson mean?
Thomas Lifson
New Mexico governor and Obama Secretary of Commerce-designate Bill Richardson has some ’splainin’ to do. French television recorded him saying (in Spanish) that “Obama is an immigrant” (so Hispanics can relate to him).

Is the Governor being fitted for a tinfoil hat? Does he believe that Obama was actually born in Kenya, as some contend (to general disdain from the media)?

Or does the Governor somehow believe that nonwhite (or even half-nonwhite) Americans are not real Americans?

Or is there some other explanation for this faux pas?

Watch the YouTube clip and decide for yourself what on earth the Governor meant.

Don’t hold your breath waiting for the mainstream media to demand clarification. This one is bound for the Memory Hole.

Hat tip: Joan Sharon, Larwyn

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:06 pm 536. Robert Hurley:

When I need a laugh I know I can always depend on you guys to lighten up my day. I wonder how a psychiatrist would psychoanalyse all of you. I hope that a social psychiatrist uses the data here for a good study of how delusion spreads.

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:06 pm 537. robotech master:

and just for herb and cedarford… a complete detailing debate with sources on the issue of “hawaii saying obama was born in hawaii”

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:20 pm 538. robotech master:

http://drorly.blogspot.com/2008/12/hawaiian-health-department.html

heh just don’t have it together today link above….

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:20 pm 539. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: THIS Is….

Try this one: — Herb

….hilarious.

Earlier I had mentioned and linked to the site where the Obamabots had provided a document on line to ‘prove’ that Obama was a ‘natural-born citizen’ of the United States.

And I believe I commented on how the proffered document had no signatures and was missing any information about such silliness as ‘place of birth’.

And NOW, Herbal offers the same bogus, unofficial doc as proof that The One WAS born in Hawaii.

And Herbal-brain alleges I lack ‘intellect’?

We’re talking SERIOUS projection here, folks.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly. -- Proverbs]

P.S. Herb would have been better off if he’d followed his earlier claim of disconnecting from this discussion…..

Instead, he proves what we’ve believed about him for quite some time.

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:24 pm 540. KM:

Natural born means born on US soil (or as McCain found out on a US military base) Donofrio says it must mean the child of two US citizens
Following Donofrio’s logic here are the US presidents then that would be stripped of their presidency ; Andrew Jackson (1829-1837) is the only president born of two immigrants, both Irish. Presidents with one immigrant parent are Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809), whose mother was born in England, James Buchanan (1857-1861) and Chester Arthur (1881-1885), both of whom had Irish fathers, and Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921) and Herbert Hoover (1929-1933), whose mothers were born respectively in England and Canada.

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:37 pm 541. Chuck Pelto:

TO: goy
RE: THOSE Guys

The real “Truthers” (like these whackos – the survivalists and wannabe, armed-to-the-teeth militia) will have reason to go even more apoplectic, claiming that this whole thing is a set-up to implement martial law, shadow government, new world order, yada yada yada… — goy

Probably an accurate analysis of their situation.

However, they could prove useful to the rest of US.

Something along the lines of a ‘canary in a coal mine’.

If we see them being ‘taken out’ by this 20K US Military ‘anti-terrorist’ organization that the Congress is trying to set up by 2011, it could be an interesting ‘indicator’ of what our friends intend to accomplish.

We’ll have to keep an eye on THAT one. Along with whether or not bloggers who criticize The One are allowed to continue their blogging activities. But that will be more difficult to ascertain. Why? Well because a pro-active action, as in ‘taking down’ the ’survivalists’ is easier to recognize than the absence of bloggers critical of The One in the blogosphere.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[With searching comes loss, and the presence of absence: Some web-site not found. - Haiku Error Msg]

Dec 8, 2008 - 1:50 pm 542. misanthropicus:

misanthropicus’ post #444: Herbie boy, not so fast – what you said is just recommanding an exculpation by (anyway) a still hypothetical “fait accompli” situation, theory which, from plain common sense consideration to legal reasoner’s scrutiny doesn’t hold water.
I’ll rephrase it for you – “it might be that X has raped Y, but since Y is now pregnant and this is a good thing, X should be absolved.”

Further, in case you can summon a clearer mind – the Supreme Court has delayed its decision in the Donofrio/Soetero matter, fact very unusual and which shows:
a) by accepting the Donofrio/Soetero case for the conference, it (the Supreme Court) gave credence to the fact that the case might have validity;
b) then, by postponing a decision regarding it (very uusual fact) the Court showed that at least a few Justices found troubling things in Soetero’s situation, therefore further enhancing the validity of the case;

Tough for you Soetrotrolls, and even if eventually the Court will bounce the case, Soetero’s situation is far of having improved – it actually worsened significantly, via the Supreme Court’s legitimization, and other challenges, more and more effective on this direction will follow.
As I said before, Jericho didn’t fall at the first blare of the horns – and your hope that the “fait accompli” situation will save Soetero’s pants is quite unrealistic.
Respectfully looking for your views -
misanthropicus

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:08 pm 543. zanne:

“I hope that a social psychiatrist uses the data here for a good study of how delusion spreads.”
That is the standard scream when someone doesn’t like what he is hearing or reading. So telling.

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:13 pm 544. misanthropicus:

TO: PJM: PJM, can you please remove my #544? It was a mistake – and allow the bellow, updated text on the page? Thanks —
————————******* ——————

RE: In the light of the today’s Suprime Court decision
TO: Herb, Herb, Herb, Herb & Herb (and occasionally Cedarford and others); #444/misanthropicus responding to #408/Herb;

Herb, this discussion will continue, and you can laugh as much as you want – the important laugh is the victor’s at the end of the dispute.

Bellow is my yesterday’s projection (#444, responding to your #408) on Monday’s (at that time hypothetical SCOTUS decision); now we know what SCOTUS decided, and bellow is the anticipation I mentioned… the best laugh is yet to come, buddy.

“[...] Further, in case you can summon a clearer mind – the Supreme Court has delayed its decision in the Donofrio/Soetero matter, fact very unusual and which shows:
a) by accepting the Donofrio/Soetero case for the conference, it (the Supreme Court) gave credence to the fact that the case might have validity;
b) then, by postponing a decision regarding it (very uusual fact) the Court showed that at least a few Justices found troubling things in Soetero’s situation, therefore further enhancing the validity of the case;

Tough for you Soetrotrolls, and even if eventually the Court will bounce the case, Soetero’s situation is far of having improved – it actually worsened significantly, via the Supreme Court’s [unintended] legitimization, and other challenges, more and more effective on this direction will follow.
As I said before, Jericho didn’t fall at the first blare of the horns – and your hope that the “fait accompli” situation will save Soetero’s pants is quite unrealistic.
Respectfully looking for your views -
misanthropicus [...]“

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:31 pm 545. misanthropicus:

RE: In the light of the today’s Suprime Court decision
TO: Herb, Herb, Herb, Herb & Herb (and occasionally Cedarford and others); #444/misanthropicus responding to #408/Herb;

Herb, this discussion will continue, and you can laugh as much as you want – the important laugh is the victor’s at the end of the dispute.

Bellow is my yesterday’s projection (#444, responding to your #408) on Monday’s (at that time hypothetical SCOTUS decision); now we know what SCOTUS decided, and bellow is the anticipation I mentioned… the best laugh is yet to come, buddy.

“[...] Further, in case you can summon a clearer mind – the Supreme Court has delayed its decision in the Donofrio/Soetero matter, fact very unusual and which shows:
a) by accepting the Donofrio/Soetero case for the conference, it (the Supreme Court) gave credence to the fact that the case might have validity;
b) then, by postponing a decision regarding it (very uusual fact) the Court showed that at least a few Justices found troubling things in Soetero’s situation, therefore further enhancing the validity of the case;

Tough for you Soetrotrolls, and even if eventually the Court will bounce the case, Soetero’s situation is far of having improved – it actually worsened significantly, via the Supreme Court’s [unintended] legitimization, and other challenges, more and more effective on this direction will follow.
As I said before, Jericho didn’t fall at the first blare of the horns – and your hope that the “fait accompli” situation will save Soetero’s pants is quite unrealistic.
Respectfully looking for your views -
misanthropicus [...]“

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:31 pm 546. cedarford:

KM:
Natural born means born on US soil.

No it doesn’t. That was only added in 1868 with the 14th Amendment. Prior to that, and after, since the 14th did not revoke previous citizenship rights, natural born meant a child born to Americans, or those grandfathered in after the Revolution.

Born on US soil does not confer citizenship to babies born of diplomats here or otherwise impacted by Treaty. Nor is the question of anchor babies born to illegals invading the USA a Constitutionally settled issue – since they were not “in the jurisdiction of the US when they broke laws to get here.

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:32 pm 547. Dark Helmet:

Wow….. 548 posts about a traitor who shouldn’t of been elected in the first place. Too bad all of you weren’t as upset with all the voter fraud.
obammy mammy, elect a black man, any black man will do……. no matter where he was born.

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:38 pm 548. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master
RE: Really?

First, the DNC and Secs of State for the 50 States around this union were charged under ELECTION LAW to certify the candidates. — robotech master

Where is THAT written? I need to know as I’ll address it with MY state’s SecState.

It could be a useful approach.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Heck. They nailed Capone on Income Tax Evasion. And he died in prison of syphilis.]

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:45 pm 549. Chuck Pelto:

TO: cedarford [IMHO, the 'traitorous' former Officer]
RE: Heh….

I don’t think we’re talking about embassy staff from a foreign sovereign power here.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:48 pm 550. Kejda Gjermani » Obama Reality Check:

[...] rumors about Obama’s birth certificate and of him being a Muslim or the son of a communist spy are not just bizarre and ridiculous in themselves, but most importantly they signal a deep failure [...]

Dec 8, 2008 - 2:54 pm 551. robotech master:

To chuck

I highly doubt that its going to be that “clearcut”. However all election laws and process is done at the state or smaller level.

Depending on how the states run the election they are “suppose” to validate the ppl running… how thats done is up to the states laws…

We see this play out in the Roger Calero case. Some states let him on the ballet some did not. Some state let his VP be on the ballet as the president pick with no VP pick…

The part of the Donofrio case in NJ was that clearly the state didn’t even attempt to throw Roger Calero off the ballet even though they had to have know other states did….(both in 2004 and in 2008)

The other problem comes in what did the states use… the temp birth cert thats altered legally to say whatever or did they bother to get the real deal from hawaii… also what did hawaii do… I’d like to know who in hawaii did their validation of ppl running and what data they used(if they used the vault copy then this is over with). I highly doubt they used the vault copy though.

Dec 8, 2008 - 3:07 pm 552. robotech master:

PS

on a side note more then likely the DNC/obama campaign handled getting he setup in each of the states so they likely used the same set of paper for each and that paper likely used the short birth cert form not the long version.

Because they are major party the state officials may have just taken their word for it as well…

Dec 8, 2008 - 3:15 pm 553. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: It REALLY IS….

….as simple as this.

Logically, one cannot prove a negative, e.g., God does not exist. And the atheists amongst US have required US to prove His existence all this time.

NOW, these same people, as I recognize them, require US to prove a negative, Obama’s Hawaiian birth certificate does not exist.

And they will not do the simple task of proving such a document exists. Certainly somethink much easier to do than have the Almighty perform a miracle in their presence.

Why IS that?

Probably because the document does NOT exist. Hence they cannot provide it. And so, in order to confuse the issue, they, in their typical ‘progressive’ manner, reverse logic and allow lies to protect them.

It makes sense, if you look at it from the perspective that nothing is really ‘true’.

Therefore, we have the likes of Herb, Robert Hurley, cedarford, et al. throwing out every obfuscation they can contrive in order to disuade US from seeking the truth of this matter.

So…

…how do we deal with these liars? These people who hate US?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]

Dec 8, 2008 - 3:18 pm 554. Chuck Pelto:

TO: robotech master, et al.
RE: Funny Think That….

on a side note more then likely the DNC/obama campaign handled getting he setup in each of the states so they likely used the same set of paper for each and that paper likely used the short birth cert form not the long version. — robotech master

….but looking over the web today, I could not find ANY place where someone running for President of the United States was required to provide evidence of their being a ‘natural-born citizen’.

It looks, for all the world to me, like a loop-hole that one could drive a pig-laden 18-wheeler through and NOBODY would notice the stench.

I think we’re onto something here.

What to make of it…is another matter.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
P.S. All the idiots at the Federal Election Commission care about is who is providing money. And based on what we heard this last cycle, vis-a-vis anonymous credit card donations, they’re buffoons at even THAT.

Dec 8, 2008 - 3:37 pm 555. ALD:

You fail to mention that
a) Obama’s mother did not reside in the U.S. for 14 years, in order for her child to be considered “a natural born citizen”
b) He was registered in Indonesia as an Indonesian citizen, attended school there, and they don’t have “dual citizenship:
c) He was re-named “Barry Soetoro” why? was he adopted by the stepfather?
d) He travelled to Pakistan in 1981 (or thereaby) His passport coud not have been a U.S. passport, because U.S. citizens were prohibited travel to Pakistan.
e) Why are his medical records sealed? Do they show him as an Indonesian citizen?
f) Why are his Columbia and Harvard papers sealed? What is he hiding?

Why doesn’t he answer all these questions? There wouldn’t be a “derangement syndrome” as you call it, if HE WOULD RESPOND TO LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS, that the media has passed up, but we still need to know.

Dec 8, 2008 - 3:45 pm 556. Rashputin:

Chuck – “So…

…how do we deal with these liars? These people who hate US?”

“…draw the sword and throw away the scabbard.”
Stonewall Jackson

Jackson also said, “Duty is ours; Consequences are God’s”. It is a lack of that realization that leads to having to deal with such liars in the first place.

Regards

Dec 8, 2008 - 3:57 pm 557. Peter the Sub Guy:

548. cedarford wrote:
Born on US soil does not confer citizenship to babies born of diplomats here or otherwise impacted by Treaty. Nor is the question of anchor babies born to illegals invading the USA a Constitutionally settled issue – since they were not “in the jurisdiction of the US when they broke laws to get here.

Peter writes: Please tell that to all the Mexicans and South Americans and people from Carribean nations who are practically dying (and in some cases are dying) in their attempts to get on US soil so thay can have their babies born here and be “US Citizens.” And don’t tell me it isn’t happening, because I used to see it practically every day when I lived in NYC.

Dec 8, 2008 - 4:50 pm 558. Peter the Sub Guy:

549. Dark Helmet:
Wow….. 548 posts about a traitor who shouldn’t of been elected in the first place. Too bad all of you weren’t as upset with all the voter fraud.

Peter responds: Who says we aren’t?

Dec 8, 2008 - 4:51 pm 559. Robert Hurley:

Hey guys I think the Supreme Court must be in on this too along with every Republican memeber of the Senate. Better watch out or your children will use your posts here to declare you mentally incompetent. If you see a man in a white coat knocking at your door, don’t anser it

Dec 8, 2008 - 6:23 pm 560. zanne:

Robert Hurley:

Hey guys I think the Supreme Court must be in on this too along with every Republican memeber of the Senate. Better watch out or your children will use your posts here to declare you mentally incompetent. If you see a man in a white coat knocking at your door, don’t anser it

Sounds like the voice of experience.

Dec 8, 2008 - 6:35 pm 561. Robert Hurley:

Hey Zame – Want to bet that the courts do nothing because it is a looney suit. say $100 to the charity of your choice

Dec 8, 2008 - 6:52 pm 562. EdwardM:

The weight of evidence seems to support Honolulu as Obama’s birthplace – I note that it is given as such on his Indonesian school records, too. Granting that this is probably the case, then, it is the more interesting that Obama has committed so much effort and expense to keeping his original birth certificate out of the public eye. It is hard not to conclude that he is, after all, hiding something – just what, there is no indication, but it is evidently something highly sensitive, at least to his mind. I confess that I would dearly love to know what it is.

Dec 8, 2008 - 9:13 pm 563. Chuck Pelto:

TO: EdwardM
RE: Heh

It is hard not to conclude that he is, after all, hiding something – just what, there is no indication, but it is evidently something highly sensitive, at least to his mind. I confess that I would dearly love to know what it is. — EdwardM

If it is something other than he was not born in Hawaii, I think someone earlier made an excellent suggestion as to what he has to hide….

….that Barney Frank is is REAL mother.;-P

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Actions are visible, though motives are secret. -- Samuel Johnson]

Dec 9, 2008 - 2:17 am 564. cedarford:

bigmck – Even if the BC is valid, that does not make him “natural born”. At the time of his birth, US law said one parent had to be a citizen and a 10 year resident of the USA with five of those years after he/she turned 16 in order for the child to be a citizen. His mother did not meet that requirement. The whole thing stinks.

Garbage.
You don’t understand the law.

By your criterion, any child born in the USA to two US citizens under the age of 21 (16+your believed 5 years) is not a US citizen.
By your criteria, 2 American expats living abroad and working for private industry of the military on a 2-3 year period between the ages of 16 and 21 cannot produce a US citizen child until their “penalty years” serving in the US Army in Iraq or working for a firm in Greece expire…when they are 23-24.

******************
ALD

a) Obama’s mother did not reside in the U.S. for 14 years, in order for her child to be considered “a natural born citizen”

Garbage. Obama’s mom resided in the US continuously as a resident until age 22.

b) He was registered in Indonesia as an Indonesian citizen, attended school there, and they don’t have “dual citizenship:

Garbage. He was in a family headed by an prosperous Indonesian man. At the time, now doubt Ann Soetero believed she and Barack would live in Indonesia a long time. And they did have dual citizenship in the way that Barack had standing as a ward of an Indonesian but could only relinquish his birthright citizenship himself at age 18 by US law, which he didn’t. (foreign law cannot involuntarily strip someone’s US citizenship – it violates US sovereignity).

c) He was re-named “Barry Soetoro” why? was he adopted by the stepfather?

Garbage. Who cares? He was a US citizen then and now, who never tried shedding his citizenship with State Dept in their formal legal procedure.

d) He travelled to Pakistan in 1981 (or thereaby) His passport coud not have been a U.S. passport, because U.S. citizens were prohibited travel to Pakistan.

More garbage. There was never a ban on travel to Pakistan. In 1981 we had US bases there, US businesses there, Pakistan was a US ally. The myth of Pakistan as a forbidden land to Americans back then is a convenient Truther lie, easily dispelled by a simple lookup.

e) Why are his medical records sealed? Do they show him as an Indonesian citizen?

Why are your own medical records sealed from prying Truther eyes? Could it be something about Federal HIPAA law and each person’s right to privacy? Why did Sarah Palin effectively say “F*ck-off!” to Left-Wing Truthers seeking her gynecological records from when Trig was born? Same thing. Her right, her business.
But as is, Obama did release statements from doctors saying he was in good shape.

f) Why are his Columbia and Harvard papers sealed? What is he hiding?

His school records, like his medical records, are his own. Perspective employers can ask, his enemies can ask, but he is under no obligation to release his “full files”. The common wisdom of the public is that he did fairly well at Columbia to be accepted at Harvard Law, then he did fairly well at Harvard in order to be named Magnum cum Laude and Editor, Harvard Law Review.

If he worried that he needed to sacrifice more of his privacy to allieviate the majority of voters or a key demographic segment he wanted, and get elected – he might have done so. But he didn’t. And got elected, big.

Despite howls of Truthers, no obligation exists to provide them ammunition or humor their fantasies outside what the law requires of candidates.

Dec 9, 2008 - 2:32 am 565. misanthropicus:

RE #566/ cedarford Re ALD:
“a) Obama’s mother did not reside in the U.S. for 14 years, in order for her child to be considered “a natural born citizen”
Garbage. Obama’s mom resided in the US continuously as a resident until age 22.”
Garbage, Cedfor – Stanley Ann didn’t reside continuously in the US and you Glibamabots know that this is unprovable;

“b) He was registered in Indonesia as an Indonesian citizen, attended school there, and they don’t have “dual citizenship:
Garbage. He was in a family headed by an prosperous Indonesian man. At the time, now doubt Ann Soetero believed she and Barack would live in Indonesia a long time. And they did have dual citizenship in the way that Barack had standing as a ward of an Indonesian but could only relinquish his birthright citizenship himself at age 18 by US law, which he didn’t. (foreign law cannot involuntarily strip someone’s US citizenship – it violates US sovereignity).”
Again garbage CedFor: You yourself admit that “Ann Setero belieded that…” – little BARRY was an Indonesian citizen during his life in Indonesia, the Franziskus school document well shows:
1) name “Barry Soetero”
2) citizenship: “Indonesian”
3) religion: “Muslim”

“c) He was re-named “Barry Soetoro” why? was he adopted by the stepfather?
Garbage. Who cares? He was a US citizen then and now, who never tried shedding his citizenship with State Dept in their formal legal procedure.”
Again garbage CedFor: If it so, why all the documents which would enable a correct scrutiny of his Barry’s life trajectory are beyond reach?

“d) He travelled to Pakistan in 1981 (or thereaby) His passport coud not have been a U.S. passport, because U.S. citizens were prohibited travel to Pakistan.
More garbage. There was never a ban on travel to Pakistan. In 1981 we had US bases there, US businesses there, Pakistan was a US ally. The myth of Pakistan as a forbidden land to Americans back then is a convenient Truther lie, easily dispelled by a simple lookup.”

Again garbage, CedFor: 1)there simply is no track of an US passport issued to him before anywhere within the time window covering Barry’s visit in Pakistan; 2) besides, due to political circumstances, a passport issued by a Muslim country to its subject, i.e. Barry Soetero, was perfect for a party of young Muslims like Barrack & Cie to travel there;

“e) Why are his medical records sealed? Do they show him as an Indonesian citizen?
Why are your own medical records sealed from prying Truther eyes? [...] But as is, Obama did release statements from doctors saying he was in good shape. [...]”
Garbage Cedfor: many things are in his medical records, including his drug rehabs – his true name and US status, by the way. If you are confortable with a US president doing coke between sessions, that’s your way. But most Americans aren’t that comfortable with this issue, either.

“f) Why are his Columbia and Harvard papers sealed? What is he hiding?
His school records, like his medical records, are his own. Perspective employers can ask, his enemies can ask, but he is under no obligation to release his “full files”. [...]”
Garbage Cedfor: This dude is not applying for a loading dock job – and is is curious how you and your liberal cohorts extoll the virtues of the formidable vetting of his prospective associates, while he himself is COMPLETELY SPARED OF THIS.
As far as his “released medical records” – a single letter, undated from (apparently) his doctor stating that he is very well. Nothing more.

“g) And got elected, big.”
You fantasize Cedfor. Yes, Soetero got elected, but he got elected just in slightly better numbers than Bush last time.

“Potemkiniade”, this is the term describing Soetero’s performance, and you Soeterotroll are nothin’ but a crew of pathetic enablers.

Dec 9, 2008 - 5:12 am 566. Rashputin:

Poor old Barak Hussein Obama, he figured that when he nominated Hillary for Secretary of State the conservatives, republicans, hard lefties, etc., all hated Hillary so much that they’d all ignore his little Constitutional problem and go after Ms Clinton and her clear Constitutional problem. But, noooo, a bunch of nutcases in tinfoil hats wants him to obey the Constitution just as much (maybe more) than they want Hillary to.

Now, I wouldn’t rule out some well funded lefties coming down on Hillary like a ton of bricks before much longer, but she isn’t proving to be the distraction Hussein thought she would be. He wanted to already be inaugurated before the nasty stuff came out and hit the fan, that way he could wrangle over why he had to deal with an eligibility issue after already being sworn in. What else can he do that’s constitutionally questionable and “sexy” enough to distract people? Hmmmm, maybe he can come up with something in the next three or four days. If so, then we’ll know he is desperate to avoid any issue that requires his birth certificate be produced for the court.

Too bad Hussein can’t just dig some dirt up on his opponent and have him “withdraw from the race”. It would be really interesting to see the Hussein crew knocking Biden out somehow prior to the inauguration. Fortunately for Biden, Hussein really, really, wants Biden around to help him with the big decisions and with his speech writing.

I’m really enjoying watching Hussein. He proves that a good Muslim Arab kid can make it in this country no matter who paid for his college and no matter what little problems a few Muslims may have caused us in the past. Yup, Hussein is even better than an Alger Hiss story. He’s as good as one of those yarns where a poor fatherless child turns out to be the long lost prince from the royal family in some rich little country. I just love fairy tales like Hussein, but probably not as much as those lefties that sweat blood to get the guy ahead of Hillary and all the way to the top. Folks like that must be popping their buttons with pride.

Regards

Dec 9, 2008 - 7:16 am 567. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: The Electoral College Approach

Apparently WND has thought of this approach of addressing the Electoral College, asking THEM to see Obama’s Birth Certificate as well.

You can support this effort and WND HERE!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[All that is necessary for evil to prevail.....]

Dec 9, 2008 - 8:07 am 568. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Additional Electoral College Approach

I’ve also decided to contact my state Secretary of State who will be addressing the delegates of the Electoral College from my state this coming Monday. In the letter, I asked HIM to ask of the Electoral College delegates to see the Birth Certificate for themselves before they cast their ballots.

I recommend all you who see this do the same for your respective state and ask your friends and associates to do so as well. And to pass on this request to their friends and associates.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Worst thing that could happen here is someone could learn something. -- Letterman]

Dec 9, 2008 - 8:31 am 569. goy:

- The weight of evidence seems to support Honolulu as Obama’s birthplace – I note that it is given as such on his Indonesian school records, too.

EdwardM, thank you for pointing out a facet of this issue that was staring us (me, anyway) right in the face! I haven’t seen anyone else point it out, but I’m guessing it may be the reason that Berg prefers his ‘fallback’ assertion – that BHO lost his citizenship as an Indonesian citizen – over the notion that BHO was born in Kenya.

I can’t think of any reason Lolo Soetoro would have had to intentionally misreport BHO’s place of birth on his Indonesian school registration.

The only possible scenario in which this information could turn out to be hinky (assuming Soetoro was truthful) would be if a Certification of Live Birth – like the one BHO has “released” as a JPG image – had been sent to the school upon little Barry’s registration there (or, alternately, to the official Indonesian office where Barry’s new citizenship was recorded).

If that Certification had previously been amended – complete with “proof”, like, I don’t know, an affidavit from, say, Ann Dunham’s parents? – to change Place of Birth from “Kenya”, or maybe even “n/a” (at this point who knows? no one’s seen the original) to “Honolulu, HI, USA”, the Indonesian official or the registrar at Franziskus School would simply have copied the information over from that. Neither would likely be aware that Hawaii itself doesn’t consider a Certification document sufficient proof of natural born citizenship, and it’s possible that they wouldn’t even care about the ‘natural born’ part because the Certification absolutely identifies BHO as an American Citizen. This is the core of the confusion, and it’s caused by Hawaii’s convoluted, “amendable” birth record process.

Let me state that this is absolutely a stretch. The problems with simply letting it go, however, are (a) one has to assume that Soetoro was being truthful and (b) one has to assume that BHO’s Certification of Live Birth record hadn’t previously been amended, and that it wasn’t used as the source for the school record document. There’s no reason to believe either, and no reason to NEED to, because the proof is currently under expensive legal guard. All that’s needed is to release it. I’ll pay the $12.50!

The part that nags is the fact that BHO’s JPG is a short-form Certification document – not a short-form Certificate of Live Birth or a short-form Certificate of Hawaiian Birth. So this scenario is plausible and at the same time it requires no conspiracy – only a very chaotic first few years in BHO’s life, which he himself has attested to in his manifestly premature memoirs.

Either way, any remaining question on place of birth will be eliminated if BHO is compelled to release his original, long-form COLB. Then, if necessary, the court can move to a determination on the Indonesian citizenship issue. Me, I prefer that turn of events rather than pompous blowhards like Moran and Horowitz telling mere peons like me to shut up about it.

Dec 9, 2008 - 9:02 am 570. Peter the Sub Guy:

570. Chuck Pelto wrote:
I recommend all you who see this do the same for your respective state and ask your friends and associates to do so as well. And to pass on this request to their friends and associates.

Peter replies: Unfortunately I don’t think this would work in my state. (MA) We have so many Obama-swooners here they would probably keel over laughing at such a request.

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:22 am 571. zanne:

“You can support this effort and WND HERE!”

Thanks Chuck Pelto for the information and will pass it on. Quick question. Don’t you feel the B.C. would require a forensic examination? Look at the garbage Factcheck and ect posted as the real deal?

Dec 9, 2008 - 10:57 am 572. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: The Electoral College, State-Level Approach

Just heard back from my SecState Elections division.

They’ll take whomever the state-party offers as a candidate. They do nothing to verify eligibility.

Probably the same in most other states as well.

In other words, we could well have been ‘had’.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 9, 2008 - 12:02 pm 573. Chuck Pelto:

TO: Peter the Sub Guy
RE: In MA

Unfortunately I don’t think this would work in my state. (MA) We have so many Obama-swooners here they would probably keel over laughing at such a request. — Peter the Sub Guy

Probably. However, I think the critical bit of information was whether or not the MA SecState felt it was their responsibility to confirm someone’s eligibility to run for the Office of the President of the United States.

It’s pretty obvious that where I live, the lazy bat-rastards would have taken Saddam Hussein, if offered by some political party.

The question becomes, what recourse now?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few. -- George Bernard Shaw]

P.S. I’d suggest that the Democrats have found a way to do both…..

Dec 9, 2008 - 12:08 pm 574. Chuck Pelto:

TO: zanne
RE: Yes….

Don’t you feel the B.C. would require a forensic examination? Look at the garbage Factcheck and ect posted as the real deal? — zanne

….I think a forensic examination of any offered document would be necessary. Why? Because of what I stated earlier in this thread at item #113 (above).

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Only fraud and falsehood dread examination. Truth invites it. -- Samuel Johnson]

Dec 9, 2008 - 12:14 pm 575. Robert Hurley:

You give a new meaning to the phrase “tilting at windmills” I hope you continue to waste your time putsuing this fruitless mission. It not only gives many of us endless entertainment, it also bogs you down and prevents you from discussing more important issues. By all means go to it

Dec 9, 2008 - 12:32 pm 576. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Heh…

You give a new meaning to the phrase “tilting at windmills” I hope you continue to waste your time putsuing this fruitless mission. — Robert Hurley

I wonder what he’ll say/do if this effort proves that The One is NOT a ‘natural-born citizen’.

Three guesses….first two don’t count….

The question becomes who will he turn his anger against? The One? Or those who exposed him as a fraud?

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[It's easy to forgive you when you're wrong. It's much harder when you're right.]

Dec 9, 2008 - 1:16 pm 577. Rashputin:

Robert Hurley – “You give a new meaning to the phrase “tilting at windmills” I hope you continue to waste your time putsuing this fruitless mission.”

Still systematically slinging seething, senseless, slurs, supposedly sparing senders sensibilities since selfsame slur slinger says said subject seriously sodomizes sanity sacrilegiously suggesting Soetero submit something stipulated significant since statute signatories seized statehood savaging sceptered superiors.

sniff some schmucks scented southside

Dec 9, 2008 - 1:58 pm 578. robotech master:

Post 579 owns post 577 for the win hehe

Dec 9, 2008 - 2:51 pm 579. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: Heh

It appears that our ‘friends’ are giving up the ‘fight’ here.

Something to do with a test of wills I suspect.

Herb seems to have dropped off the map over the last 24-36 hours. Cedarford has reduced his/her presence.

However, pleasant as that may be, the primary problem of Obama’s eligibility remains. And that despite all the outrageous slings and arrows hurled at US by their ilk.

Time to expand our operations.

Again, I suggest that each of us contact our friends and associates about contacting our state SecState and the Electoral College. And having them, if they have a mind to it, passing it on to THEIR friends and associates and so on and so on…..

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 9, 2008 - 3:40 pm 580. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. About cedarford….

….I tend to doubt the veracity of his claim he was once an officer in the United States Armed Forces.

He trotted that claim out over on the discussion about Hillary’s eligabilty to be SecState. I asked him to tell me where, when and what capacity, but he never replied. And after the prodding I afforded him/her here, they have yet to respond.

So, if he/she IS a former member of the Officer Corps, I’m intrigued by their lack of gonads…..

Dec 9, 2008 - 3:42 pm 581. Peter the Sub Guy:

582. Chuck Pelto wrote:
P.S. About cedarford….
So, if he/she IS a former member of the Officer Corps, I’m intrigued by their lack of gonads…..

Peter replies: I would think disgusted by more than intrigued.

Dec 10, 2008 - 4:46 am 582. asdf:

So i had to show mine to get my job but the POTUS elect does not? Why fight this in court and not just show it? Why is it wrong to ask questions? I had to take a drug test will he? I dont see how this makes people equal to being a 9/11 truther. Why not just show it? Being a pol from Chicago rules out “trust me” as the Gov. is clearly showing. All this could have been avoided and squashed by one judge taking a look at it, but they refused. Is there not some gov. agency responsible for verification of elegability?

Dec 10, 2008 - 7:07 am 583. Robert Hurley:

Last night I was reading a book about the Silk Road. The author reported on a conversations he had in Iran with a Muslim who believed that the 9/11 trajedy was engineered by Jews. The author pointed out how absurd this was since many of those killed were jews. It was no use. He was not going to be able to convince the guy with facts. You guys are just like that Muslim – true belivers who won’t admit the truth even when their facts are wrong

Dec 10, 2008 - 7:50 am 584. Rashputin:

Robert Hurley – “You guys are just like that Muslim – true belivers who won’t admit the truth even when their facts are wrong”

So you think that people who, knowing specific documentation is said to exist, demand that said documentation be placed in evidence to prove constitutional compliance, are just like brainwashed cult members? Interesting indeed.

That means evidence you’ve never seen (like the evidence the Muslims don’t have) but insist is true based on the word of your fellow democrats (just like that Muslim) doesn’t matter since you already know the truth (just like your Muslim pal). This pretty well proves that Chuck is right when he mentions projection, it’s a Pavlovian response with you folks. You automatically resort to it whenever confronted with an unpleasant fact.

I mean damn, the Muslim in your own illustration portrays you to a, “T”, but you project it onto others!! Wow, it’s worse than I thought. To use a movie title as a simple explanation, “There Will Be Blood”. It’s so far gone that nothing short of that will wake you people up. Even then you could well be giving your children over to, “The One” so your kids can run through minefields! Geez. The dilusionment is going to be really bad.

Enjoy your daily chanting

Dec 10, 2008 - 12:32 pm 585. Chuck Pelto:

TO: All
RE: More Robert Hurley Projection

. It was no use. He was not going to be able to convince the guy with facts. You guys are just like that Muslim – true belivers who won’t admit the truth even when their facts are wrong — Robert Hurley

’nuff said.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

Dec 11, 2008 - 3:30 am 586. Chuck Pelto:

P.S. Just to clarify they Hurley hurls these projections on the rest of US….

…WE’RE the ones asking for the proof to be provided. And he uses this sort of approach to throw dust in everyone’s eyes, saying, “You guys are….true believers.”

When indeed we are not. We’re the ones asking for proof. A true-believer already has it fixed in their own mind what the ‘facts’ are and no proof will dissuade them.

Therefore, Robert Hurley projects his ‘true believer’-ness upon the rest of US. And he uses it as a dodge to avoid the REAL issue, which is he cannot provide a single iota of effective proof, e.g., an authentic, signed, sealed and official birth certificate from Hawaii that Senator Barack Hussein Obama is actually a natural-born citizen of the United States.

Dec 11, 2008 - 3:59 am 587. Chuck Pelto:

P.P.S. And, based on the discussion over the last few weeks, neither can ANYONE ELSE…..

Dec 11, 2008 - 4:00 am 588. goy:

CBP, I think the real problem here is that one doesn’t have to “believe” that BHO is a fraud in order to hold the position that this fact now needs to be proved legally, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The knee-jerks who lambaste this position are either actively ignoring that or don’t realize it. They’re erroneously applying the “innocent until proven guilty” standard in order to claim that BHO is innocent of fraud until proven guilty of fraud. And what’s worse, they take this position in many cases simply because he and the media were clever enough to dupe a majority of Americans into voting for him despite his demonstrable lack of fitness for the position. And of late, we now have to include the likelihood of his being involved in the Blagospheric shenanigans uncovered this week.

But the question here is not one of guilt vs. innocence. It’s a question of eligible vs. ineligible. In any case I can think of, one is considered ineligible until proven eligible. Doctors can’t perform surgery until proven eligible. Simply producing a diploma doesn’t qualify. And I’m sorry, but a signed affidavit isn’t proof either. Neither is someone else’s word. Neither is a fake-looking ‘certification’ document that can’t stand up to the most cursory scrutiny without at least an attempt at an explanation.

When one makes a claim one needs to back it up, not wait for someone to accuse you of lying and then prove you’re wrong (while hiding the only evidence that constitutes proof under legal lock-and-key). People are laughed at on the most lax of message boards for such baseless audacity. So why should the standard be lower when determining eligibility to serve in the Office of the POTUS? When I fill out an I-9, the government won’t take my word, they require a passport or a valid birth certificate. And that’s just to prove basic citizenship, not natural-born citizenship.

All this goes double, by the way, for a situation in which objective, documented proof is known to exist, and worse, in which the person claiming eligibility has gone to enormous lengths to hide, and which no one – not even the people who know that person to be a serial liar and a fraud – seem to be interested in letting the courts resolve the issue.

The folks using the “true believer” and similar ad hominems simply lack a valid response to the self-evident fact (which you point out) that there is reasonable doubt as to the authenticity and validity of the only document BHO has produced. Absent that, name-calling is much easier than actually having to think.

Dec 11, 2008 - 9:54 am 589. Chuck Pelto:

TO: asdf
RE: Oddities

So i had to show mine to get my job but the POTUS elect does not?

— asdf

That seems to be pretty much the way things are set up.

As I see it, it’s a loop-hole one could drive a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier through at 30+ knots and the Captain would never have a worry about it.

Why fight this in court and not just show it?

— asdf

Probably because it doesn’t exist in the first place.

But once he is in office, I’ll betcha that the CIA, or FBI or SS or NSA could fabricate one that would meet muster. And therein might be another complaint.

Why is it wrong to ask questions? I had to take a drug test will he?

— asdf

Nothing’s wrong with asking questions, unless someone is afraid of answers.

I had to take a drug test will he?

— asdf

I doubt if the law requires lawmakers to take drug tests.

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Only fraud and falsehood dread examination. Truth invites it. -- Samuel Johnson]

Dec 11, 2008 - 3:46 pm 590. robotech master:

O look another nooblet has posted another propaganda piece… you’d have thought he’d do some research(or at least you know look at the web page he’s suppose to be writing for)…

Dec 12, 2008 - 1:04 am 591. Traci Sommerville:

Dave Said:
FACT: Obama’s Mother was a US citizen at the time he was born.
FACT: The child of a US citizen is a natural-born citizen regardless of locale of birth.

Not true. My aunt was a military brat born in the Phillipines. Both of her parents (my grandparents) were born in the USA. She is not a natural born citizen. She was effectively under dual citizenship until the age of 18 adn then had to choose which one she wanted (as if that was even a question.) By law, and the military made this clear to my grandparents when she was born), she would not be eligible to be president. I’m sorry, but there are so many people that are armchair lawyers and completely clueless. All military brats born overseas know better.

Feb 27, 2009 - 7:51 pm 592. Traci Sommerville:

To be clear, that’s not to say Obama isn’t a natural born citizen, if he was born in Hawaii for real. That is the question.

Feb 27, 2009 - 8:03 pm 593. DC:

Well, Traci Sommerville, by your example, McCain is the one who would not have been eligible to be president. He was certainly born in Panama as a “military brat”.

We have Hawaiian officials, including Republicans, who have verified the original document. The law of the state doesn’t allow them to make it public. Are we suggesting that they break that law to appease a group of nuts who will not support Obama anyway? And, to the guy who says that the officials in Hawaii are not experts on birth certificates and could be fooled by the original document, please explain exactly why and how the original document was forged. And, who exactly would be an expert on birth certificates if not state and medical officials?

This is silliness. I’ve never seen anything like it. Bush was different, because after all, he did come into office under unusual and controversial circumstances. Still, he was given the benefit of the doubt, and even had a 91% approval rating directly following 9/11. It was his subsequent dishonesty about Iraq, and his part in the destruction of our economy and standing in the world that caused the backlash by the left (and the middle for that matter). Obama has been facing this since before his election. Now he has only been in office for a month, and quite honestly, he has followed his campaign promises so far better than anyone I can remember, and I’ve been around a while.

This hatred is unique and personal. Some expected it. I’m terribly disappointed.

Mar 1, 2009 - 2:20 pm 594. Traci Sommerville:

Actually, you’re right, McCain wouldn’t have been eligible either, and I believe that was brought up for a short time during the campaigning in rebuttal to the flap over Obama, too. I personally though, am not hating. I’m just pointing out what I know about eligibility.
I will say this though, and I’m not hating on Obama, since he’s not the sole creator of the “bailout”, but my brother sent me an email that listed a bunch of catastrophes and how much they cost (i.e. the Exxon Valdez), and I thought it was funny because after all those amounts, they listed the bailout, and it cost SO much more. It just kind of made me chuckle.

Mar 1, 2009 - 3:47 pm

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