As you surely know by now, Walter Cronkite’s death at age 92 was announced on Friday. This passage by John Podhoretz brilliantly sums up the peak of Cronkite’s career arc in the late 1960s:
Cronkite was a key figure in many ways, but foremost among them, perhaps, was the fact that he cleared the way for the mainstream media and the Establishment to join what Lionel Trilling called “the adversary culture.” Cronkite, the gravelly voice of accepted American wisdom, whose comportment suggested he kept his money in bonds and would never even have considered exceeding the speed limit, devastated President Lyndon Johnson in the wake of the 1968 Tet Offensive by declaring that the United States “was mired in stalemate” in Vietnam—when Johnson knew that Tet had been a military triumph.
This on-air editorial, spoken during the most-watched newscast in the country when that meant 30 million people were watching (as opposed to 7 million today, with the nation having added more than 100 million in population), was a transformational moment in American history.
“If I’ve lost Cronkite,” Johnson was reputed to have said, “I’ve lost middle America,” and shortly thereafter he announced he would not run for reelection. This was a mark of Johnson’s own poor political instincts—a president who thought a rich and powerful anchorman living the high life in New York city was the voice of the silent majority was a man out of touch with reality—but it was a leading indicator of how the media were changing. Cronkite didn’t know what he was talking about when it came to Tet, as the late Peter Braestrup demonstrated in his colossal expose of the scandalous media coverage of the battle, Big Story. But he knew that among the people who mattered to him, and who were the leading edge of ideological fashion, Tet was a failure because the war in Vietnam was bad, and he took to the airwaves to say so.
How did American media get to this point? As I wrote a couple of years ago in “Atlas Mugged”:
Prior to the 1920s, American newspapers and pamphleteers had a long, diverse history of vigorous, partisan debate. Which is why there are still newspapers with names like the Springfield Democrat and Shelbyville Republican.
That began to change with the rise of competition from the broadcast media. In the 1920s, because radio frequencies were finite, their allocation became heavily regulated by the federal government. As Shannon Love of the classically liberal Chicago Boyz (www.chicagoboyz.net) economics blog explains, the federal government “took the radio spectrum, and instead of auctioning it off like land, essentially socialized it. And then they made the distribution of the broadcast spectrum basically a political decision.”
That, combined later with the FCC’s so-called “Fairness Doctrine—which required broadcasting networks to give “equal time” to opposing viewpoints—compelled broadcasters to maintain at least a veneer of impartiality in order to get and keep their licenses. A de facto political compromise was reached, Love says, “that the broadcast news would not be political—it would be objective and nonpartisan, was basically the idea. And then that carried over from radio to TV,” and eventually to print media. (That conceit continues to this day, as the media toss around words like “unbiased” and “objective” as easily as Dan Rather tosses off hoary, made-up Texas-isms.)
Completely dependent on the federal government, the broadcast industry’s most urgent priority became “don’t rock the boat.” And aping their broadcast competitors, newspapers began to adopt the mantle of impartiality, as well. A mass media that increasingly eschewed vibrant political debate helped FDR win four presidential elections handily, and Ike’s refusal to dismantle the New Deal in the 1950s only perpetuated its soft socialism. That era’s pervasive desire for consensus was symbolized by the ubiquitous Man in the Gray Flannel Suit and his centrist politics.
By the early 1970s, mass media had reached its zenith (if you’ll pardon the pun). Most Americans were getting their news from one of three TV networks’ half-hour nightly broadcasts. With the exception of New York, most big cities had only one or two primary newspapers. And no matter what a modern newspaper’s lineage, by and large its articles, except for local issues, came from global wire services like the Associated Press or Reuters; it took its editorial lead from the New York Times; and it claimed to be impartial (while usually failing miserably).
Up until the Reagan years, Love says, “definitely fewer than one hundred people, and maybe as few as twenty people, actually decided what constituted national news in the United States.” These individuals were principally concentrated within a few square blocks of midtown Manhattan, the middle of which was home to the offices of the New York Times. The aptly nicknamed “Gray Lady” largely shaped the editorial agendas not just of newspapers but of television, as well. As veteran TV news correspondent Bernard Goldberg wrote in his 2003 book Arrogance, “If the New York Times went on strike tomorrow morning, they’d have to cancel the CBS, NBC, and ABC evening newscasts tomorrow night.”
Love calls this “the Parliament of Clocks”: creating the illusion of truth or accuracy by force of consensus. “Really, the only way that consumers can tell that they’re getting accurate information is to check another media source,” Love says. “And unfortunately, that creates an incentive for the media sources to all agree on the same story.”
Back in May, Gerard Vanderluen wrote, “The Media is how America fights its civil wars. In this war at least half the country is both under-served and is painfully aware it is being under-served and lied to.” There may have been earlier examples, but Cronkite’s attack on America’s role in Vietnam was the most visible example of a nationally-known mass media journalist who had held himself out as a quote-unquote objective deliverer of the news taking an advocacy position against America’s interests. This made it one of the flashpoints for the long simmering Cold Civil War between rival factions of America’s culture .
On the other hand, regarding the extremely hot war in Vietnam, as Ed Morrissey writes, in hindsight, Cronkite’s influence on America’s involvement wasn’t as damaging as it could have been — or as Cronkite no doubt hoped it would have been:
I have felt for a long time that both his fans and his opponents made far too much out of Cronkite, who was a good news reader — and a better ambassador for CBS than his successors. Walter Cronkite did not lose us the Vietnam War; that was lost by Congress in 1974-5, after Richard Nixon had managed to put it back more or less to status quo ante years past Johnson’s quote.
Check out Lewis Sorley’s 1999 book, A Better War, for more on the period of the Vietnam War post-Tet (and post Westmoreland) that seems otherwise largely forgotten by a history that essentially flash-forwards from Tet to the last helicopters out of Saigon being unceremoniously dumped off the sides of overloaded American aircraft carriers.
Cronkite’s moment is thankfully lost since past. Between the Blogosphere and the rest of the Web and cable TV, the parliament of clocks, with Cronkite as ther most visible member, is over. And the cost of entry for those who wish to report and comment on the news is effectively nil, unlike the limited resources of the mass media era.
Also, our relationship with Old Media has changed; while they’re busy embarrassing themselves by fawning over President Obama, most of us don’t view television newsreaders with that same level of awe anymore. As Hollywood screenwriter and pundit Burt Prelutsky wrote a few years ago:
You can go back to Chet Huntley, David Brinkley, John Chancellor and Walter Cronkite. We treated them all with a deference that was totally out of proportion to the work they did. Essentially, the job description requires that they read the captions to the news footage we’re watching and to introduce the on-site reporters. Do you really think that constitutes the mental equivalent of heavy lifting? For doing what your uncle Sid could do — and with a lot more pazazz — they’re paid enormous amounts of money. On top of all the dough, they are constantly the honorees at testimonial dinners, but that’s fine, so long as I don’t have to attend. But the trouble is, they’re regarded as important people by way too many of us, and that’s not good. Why? Because it makes us all look like a bunch of saps — what H.L. Mencken called the boobus americanus and what P.T. Barnum simply labeled suckers.
Because these anchors get to spend their entire careers talking about important events and important people, they naturally come to regard themselves as important. Self-delusion is a form of insanity and we should not encourage it by fawning over them.
When they finally sign off for the last time, you notice that the testimonials inevitably mention how many political conventions they covered, how many space missions, how many inaugurations, assassinations, uprisings and wars, as if they had had a hand in any of these earth-shaking events. It wasn’t their hands that were involved, it was their behinds, as they sat year after year at those desks, declaiming in those store-bought voices what we were seeing with our own eyes — all thanks to the journalistic peons who actually went places and did things and took risks so that we could sit home and watch it
Now, I’m not saying we should kill the messengers. I’m just suggesting it’s time we stopped canonizing them.
It seems safe to say that if you’re regular consumer of blogs, you’re long since past the stage of canonizing news readers, and that’s a good thing.
We’ll likely never see a journalist with the monopoly that Cronkite and his nightly “competitors” at NBC and ABC had; and frankly, that seems like a very good thing.
Update: Jules Crittenden explores Cronkite’s role as war correspondent, before he morphed into opinion an journalist. And regarding the latter phase of his career, Newsbusters’ Tim Graham writes, “Time: Cronkite, the ‘Patron Saint of Objectivity’ — Well, Actually, Thankfully, No.”
As every cable news channel is running their retrospectives this weekend (and silently thanking “Uncle Walter” for one last big news story in an otherwise slow news weekend), the Anchoress writes:
I recall hoping that Tim Russert’s sad death would inspire some self-reflection within the ranks of the press, but that did not happen, so I doubt Cronkite’s death will wake them from their self-destructive sleep, either.
As America’s legacy media have morphed into hagiographers for powerful collectivists, introspection is a feature they appear to have universally long since jettisoned.
Update: File these under the title of Anchorman: The Legend of Walt Burgundy: Fellow Pajamas Express blogger Roger Kimball is succinct, as usual: “Walter Cronkite, World’s Most Overrated Reader of the News.” Elsewhere, the folks at Newsbusters collate an assortment of Cronkite’s more outré quotes after retiring from the night watchman’s desk at the Tiffany network.
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96 Comments
1. The Anchoress — A First Things Blog:[...] within the ranks of the press, but that did not happen, so I doubt Cronkite’s death will wake them from their self-destructive sleep, [...]
Jul 18, 2009 - 12:57 am 2. KingShamus:Don’t worry. The kids are busy canonizing Jon Stewart and Steven Colbert.
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:55 am 3. qwfwq:Yeah, he’s the pinhead who convinced the American public we’d lost that war in Vietnam. Good riddance.
Jul 18, 2009 - 7:10 am 4. Bent Notes » Blog Archive » Walter Cronkite, R.I.P.:[...] and reflections to fold into various streams of thought as time goes on, but for now, I think Ed Driscoll at Pajamas Media, and the various people he quotes, sums up my initial [...]
Jul 18, 2009 - 7:33 am 5. Robert W. Franson:“a history that essentially flash-forwards from Tet to the last helicopters out of Saigon”
Yes! Several years ago I reviewed the Library of America’s two-volume “Reporting Vietnam: 1959-1975″, and described their trick of placing Michael Herr’s vivid “Dispatches”, which describes only 1967-1968, at the very end of the two volumes; and additionally relabeling “Dispatches”’s chronology as “1967-1975″; thus leaving the impression that the end of the Vietnam War was still just like Tet. A neat trick; but not history.
Jul 18, 2009 - 8:01 am 6. Moneyrunner:Walter Cronkite is dead and I extend my sympathy to this relatives and friends who grieve. As for me, I cannot find it in myself to mourn his passing. I watched his version of the news constantly, recalling his famous closing line “and that’s the way it is.” The problem is, as I learned later, that’s not the way it was.
Walter Cronkite was labeled – I don’t know by whom, probably the marketing department at CBS News – as “the most trusted man in America.” He, and many others, used that trust to create an aura around the news business that it has taken literally decades to reveal as a false front. At a time when information was one-way and media outlets were severely limited in number, the version of reality that was reflected by Walter Cronkite shaped public opinion so massively that opposing opinions stood no chance. That is why it was Walter Cronkite who ended America’s quest for victory in Viet Nam.
When Lyndon Johnson said that “If I’ve lost Cronkite, I’ve lost Middle America.” He recognized a political truth. Consider this.
In mid-February, in the immediate aftermath of the Tet Offensive, both Gallup and Harris noted a surge in American support for the war. Both pollsters said 61% of Americans favored a stronger military response against the North Vietnamese Army. 70% of Americans favored increased bombing of North Vietnamese targets, which was up from 63% in the previous December.
Then came Cronkite’s February 27 commentary.
To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory conclusion.
In early March, just a few days later, 49% of Americans said it was a mistake to have entered the Vietnam conflict. Only 35% believed the war would end within two years. 69% now approved of a phased withdrawal of American troops from Vietnam.*
The political power Cronkite wielded was acknowledged not just by Lyndon Johnson – who effectively ceded control of America’s war policy to a news commentator – but is acknowledged by his cohorts in the news business:
It is impossible to imagine CBS News, journalism or indeed America without Walter Cronkite,” CBS News president Sean McManus said in a statement. “More than just the best and most trusted anchor in history, he guided America through our crises, tragedies and also our victories and greatest moments.”
Repeat that in your mind: “He guided America.” And employee of CBS news “guided America.” This is not a brief for Lyndon Johnson or the literal crooks and clowns who inhabit the house and senate, but the power that Cronkite wielded over America is troubling to me.
From the same article we are reminded that Cronkite had a team. And who was on that team? Eric Severeid, Daniel Schorr, Dan Rather, Roger Mudd, Mike Wallace. See anyone there who you would recognize as a Conservative voice? Neither do I. Today Daniel Schorr delivers diatribes against the Right from his sinecure at NPR and Dan Rather maintains that it was those damn Right Wingers who smeared him by exposing his phony Bush papers story.
Cronkite, it was said, “did not editorialize often.” Well, let’s put it this way, he did not come out and say “this is my opinion.” But his way of editorializing is the same craft that the media used in his time and ever since: selective use of facts, the omission of this story, the emphasis on that story, all used to weave a version of reality that people believed about the world around them beyond the reach of their five senses.
Walter Cronkite gained immense power and, in my opinion used that power badly to advance his personal wealth and his personal ideology. There’s a lot of money to be made if you are the “most trusted man in America.” And you can convince a lot of people that “that’s the way it is” if they believe you.
The healthiest thing for American democracy has been the internet, having broken the death-grip that the mainstream media have had on American perspectives of reality. Had Walter Cronkite lived with the internet, his title and his sign off line would have been laughed at.
Rest in peace.
Jul 18, 2009 - 8:14 am 7. Pajamas Media » And That’s the Way it Wasn’t:[...] Read the rest of the story here. [...]
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:09 am 8. Warpublican:“Cronkite didn’t know what he was talking about when it came to Tet…”
Right! Cronkite was SO misinformed about our actual and brilliant VICTORY during Tet, that the war only dragged on for another SEVEN years – the bulk of our war dead – awaiting our crawling away in shame. of course if you source ED MORRISSEY as one of your experts – you don’t have too much credibility to start with…
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:30 am 9. WarDog:Are the rightwing -pinheads posting here serious, or merely off their meds? Pull those tinfoil hats on tight, teabaggers. That nasty old MSM is reading your brainwaves. Sigh. We may have lost a great journalist and fine Ameriocan on Cronkite, but much of the audience was lost long ago to the kind of paranoid extremism exhibited in this thread. And that’s the way it is.
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:35 am 10. Dave:Good riddance to liberal rubbish.
Cronkite was a pig who has the blood of millions of dead who were slaughtered by the Far Left communist monsters that Crnkite idolized.
Enjoy Hell you POS.
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:54 am 11. BC:I just need to basically copy and paste an earlier post of mine from elsewhere:
Gawd, what absolutely clueless and nasty vitriol coming out from right wing morons about Cronkite (especially the Orcs at Hot Air). These history-ignorant schmucks either have forgotten or don’t want to remember how much both the US public and news media were lied to by the US government, especially the Pentagon, about anything and everything Southeast Asia-related during those days. While the Tet Offensive indeed ended as a big military defeat for the Viet Cong, that they were able to launch such a huge, bold offensive made a complete lie of what the US military had been telling people. That made Cronkite and other news people justifiably skeptical, if belatedly, about the whole killing-fields, clusterf*ck enterprise, and they ended up being much more correct in the end about what was really going on than the bitter, boneheaded revisionists now calling Cronkite a traitor or worse.
Jul 18, 2009 - 11:00 am 12. Anonymous:Cronkite, reason for the phrase: How ’bout rooting for our side for a change, liberal moron?
“To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past. To suggest we are on the edge of defeat is to yield to unreasonable pessimism. To say that we are mired in stalemate seems the only realistic, yet unsatisfactory conclusion.” -27 FEB 68
Too much influence awarded to a “talking head” on television.
Jul 18, 2009 - 11:19 am 13. Ole Sarge:War Dog,
You need to go back to your bong pipe as you have not got a clue as to the reality of Vietnam or know how to spell integrity. The man lied, he lied big and it cost thousands of American Soldiers their lives.
Jul 18, 2009 - 1:16 pm 14. Deep Brain Diarist:How special to see “Americans” and “Patriots” celebrating the death of a man who told the truth and helped the rest of the country see the waste of lives and treasure in Vietnam. If we had his like today, maybe there would be nearly 5,000 young men and women spending time with their wives, husbands, parents and children today instead of rotting in their graves for Bush’s (and YOUR) wasted adventure in Iraq. Shame on you.
Jul 18, 2009 - 2:09 pm 15. Chuck Pelto:TO: Ed Driscoll, et al.
RE: The Fact….
….of the matter is that the so-called ‘MainStream Media’ is not that anymore. Instead, we get nothing but propaganda.
Cases in point:
#1: Some talking head at ABC, I believe, said during the RNC National Convention the night President Bush was supposed to address the meeting, “President Bush will not be addressing the convention”, or words to that effect. However the president DID address the convention that night.
#2: Some national television news show had this ‘Fact Check’ business going on. They argued in support of the Obama campaign pointing out 4 items where they said the Republicans were ‘lying’ about Obama. But their arguments were all lies themselves. THEN they showed only 1 item where they argued in support of the McCain-Palin campaign, focusing on Palin, and didn’t do a very good just of countering the allegations.
I say Kill your television. Save yourselves…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 18, 2009 - 3:12 pm 16. Chuck Pelto:P.S. Well met, last night, Ed……
TO: All
RE: Dead Brain Diarrheaist
Got that folks?
This character supported Pol Pot and the Cambodian Killing Fields.
Can’t wait to see what he tries with US…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 18, 2009 - 3:23 pm 17. Buckeye Abroad:[If you can't beat them.....kill them..... -- Communist MO]
14.
“told the truth”
When? He was selling an opinion while playing fast and loose with the facts. You should talk to some Vietmanese boat people who made it to the US in the mid 70’s to get an idea. You know, the people who were there, along with US troops, and not getting a few seconds of background film with a leftie asshole harboring a big opinion of himself. I was in Iraq. Were you? Oh, thought not. Good luck with managing those nasty life lessons (eg. reality) that conflict with your paradigmatic world view.
Jul 18, 2009 - 3:26 pm 18. homero:Cronkite was not objective. he is an example of what soviets call a “useful idiot”
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:24 pm 19. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: [OT] Speaking of Television
One of the fascinating aspects of digital television is that the government NOW cut off transmissions from telecasters by sending a signal to the broadcasting mechanism. Instead of having to send armed troops to the broadcasting facility. Ain’t that ’sweet’?
If you doubt this, talk to your electricity utility about the new and improved digital electrical usage meters they’re installing. They can (1) read the meters remotely AND (2) cut off service remotely too….without having to send an agent to cut you off at your meter.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:29 pm 20. Joe Bison:[Don't you just LOVE IT when a plan comes together?]
The communists always knew that the war
had two aspects the military and the
psychological. Guys like Cronkite helped
them win the psychological aspect and
ultimately the war. Cronkite in German
is illness and this he was.
The problem was the bungling of the war
by the Johnson administration. We were
told constantly that we were winning
while Johnson kept trying to wheel and
deal a Senate like deal with the
communists who saw this as weakness.
Then Tet happened and guys like Cronkite
capitalized. How could we be winning
if this was possible? We must have
been lied to. The war is pointless
etc. Actual facts on the ground didn’t
matter.
The result is the we are being lied to
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:32 pm 21. Stepan:and government is hiding something
bad mentality and the utilization of
this mentality to further the goals of
left wing idealogues. Thank God for the
net.
It was during Cronkite’s reign that I stopped watching, listening to, and reading the main stream media and I have never looked back.
If people can’t figure out what these lying a**holes are up to, there is no hope for this country.
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:50 pm 22. steveg:Liberal/Internationalist, Walter Cronkite retires, and CBS replaces him with liberal/Bush Hater, Dan Rather, and then he retires, or is fired, and is replaced with liberal/Palin Hater, perky Katie Couric.
The so called mainstream media in a nutshell.
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:50 pm 23. david levavi:“…How did American media get to this point?”
The open recognition that broadcast journalism was long a government controlled monopoly is healthy. The emergence of competitive outlets is healthier still. The fact that FOX is still the only non-lockstep-leftist network reminds you that the corruption is deep and lingering.
The father of CBS and the phony long time guarantor of its news department’s vaunted “independence” was William Paley. Before he successfully branded CBS the “quality network” Paley was famous mainly for hustling quality cigars.
Paley’s genius lay in figuring out a way to profit from television. Before the cigar czar got into it, television, not unlike the internet today, was a wonderful new medium from which no one knew how to generate income. Paley is the father of the commercial interruption.
Ever wonder why television never evolved into a respected medium for artistic expression the way movies did? Why outstanding films are recognized for art and great film directors are respected as artists and no such development took place in television? Because of William Paley and his obscene notion of a “quality network.”
Television is a shlock medium–chewing gum for the mind–as a direct consequence of Paley’s wildly profitable commercial interruption. Neither fine drama or in-depth reporting is possible with interruptions every five minutes. The damage to the concentration of the ordinary American by several hours a day of commercial television watching–especially in the developmental years–has never been assessed as far as I know. But damage there must be.
Walter Cronkite and his stentorian ilk, handsome, shallow white WASPs with minimal investigative or writing skills whose main talent is tripping the needle on a voice meter are “journalists” and “reporters” only by the corrupt Paley standard.
As for the NYT from which telejournalists always took their cues, the less said the better. Suffice it that the Grey Lady is a syphilitic old whore and always has been.
Jul 18, 2009 - 5:13 pm 24. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: [OT] Speaking of Television (Reprised)
As I was saying about ‘digital’ technology and the ability to ‘cut off’ service…..
Try grasping THIS!
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 18, 2009 - 5:44 pm 25. Mike:[The disconnects are already beginning.....]
Interesting take Ed, can’t say I disagree with any of it. The only thing I take issue with is I think that Cronkite was so docile he probably did not even know what was happening around him with the media or the actual power he wielded. Now this is not to say someone else did not recognize it.
Looking at the pop culturization of the media since Cronkite’s retirement it is hard to believe that someone didn’t see something.
And to the historical numb-nuts who have shown such ignorance on the American victory in the Tet offensive. Pick up one of those old timy things they call a b-o-o-k. They have lots of them in those antiquated buildings known as l-i-b-r-a-r-i-e-s.
Oh hell I forgot this this is point and click generation, I will just make it easy for you since that is all you know.
Wiki acceptable morons?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tet_Offensive
Jul 18, 2009 - 6:17 pm 26. twolaneflash:How could someone of so little personal accomplishment have done so much harm to America? I have come to hate the media since I first saw a television at eight years old. As an army veteran of the Vietnam era, I saw the Fourth Estate become the Fifth Column. America would do well to turn off the tv news completely. Cronkite and his ilk have poisoned the waters too long.
Jul 18, 2009 - 6:30 pm 27. Stevemmn:I think the most overrated profession in America is that of television newscaster. How much skill does it take to sit in front of a camera and read the news. Not much I suspect.
Come to think of it, TV newscaster would be the perfect job for Barack Obama. It is basically what he does now, read prepared speeches and the only thing he is good at.
Jul 18, 2009 - 9:36 pm 28. Войска ПВО:..wow! What a simp I was! I was at first sorrowed by “Uncle Walt’s” death. I was saddened to see the NARRATOR of “The 20th Century” and those other post-World War II documentaries — you know, the ones with the interminable gun-sight camera shots of P-47s tearing up locomotives and Nazi columns in the French countryside during the ETO — have boogied to the great beyond.
And then, an internet friend uttered the simple phrase in a post on his blog, “I can’t forgive him for Tet. Nor can I give him a pass for being part of a media machine that has done so much damage to reasonable political discourse in this country.”
Then it all came flooding back to me, the memories of my soon-to-be-post-college days in the USAF, chafing against the incessant chants of “hell no, we won’t go”, and the “baby killer” taunts I and my brothers received as we passed though airports and other public gathering places in our uniforms.
This kindly old gentleman was, in reality, one of the grumpy old guys who gets invited to Thanksgiving dinner, has a few too many old fashions, and proceeds to turn a family gathering into a crapfest by pointing out that the stuffing was underdone.
I hope he enjoys his trip up the escalator with Mikey, the chopped-nose pervert.
Jul 18, 2009 - 9:57 pm 29. Charles Hanks:All the news rags including Fox are worshiping this lib as much as they did Micael Jackson,and he was nothing but a LIBERAL reporter that the liberals told whoever that America trusted him.Forty one years ago he showed to America who he was then.Years go by and there are pictures of him sailing with Clinton and Fox and the rest twist history and repeat what other liberals have said.The TRUTH:I was alive and serving in the service when he spoke as a liberal not as a reporter about his view on Nam,and hurt American servicemen dying for a liberal no different then a Chris Mathews of today
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:01 pm 30. Stepan:He was such a gung-ho WWII reporter–pro any number battle deaths necessary to advance FDR’s agenda. There were no daily tallies of American war dead then. Only undisguised enthusiasm for allied victories no matter what the cost.
But what many a WWII vet discovered is that in addition to liberating Europe and defeating Japan, they also fought for a permanent enlargement of the federal government, including the key to it all: federal income tax with holding from their monthly paychecks–to pay for the war, of course.
Without the latter, the federal government could never have metastasized into the Socialist nightmare that we now face under the Obama administration.
And that’s the way it is, July 19, 2009.
Jul 19, 2009 - 3:51 am 31. F*** Cronkite, I’m glad he’s dead and may he burn in Hell « docweaselblog:[...] at 92 RIP Walter Cronkite dead at 92 | Fire Andrea Mitchell! The Anchoress — A First Things Blog Ed Driscoll / And That’s The Way It Wasn’t dan rather | Fooner WALTER CRONKITE, OFF TO THAT KRAFTY KOMMUNIST KRYPT IN THE GROUND – [...]
Jul 19, 2009 - 5:07 am 32. SteveOfTheNorth:People still watch TV?
well…
Other than Bugs Bunny cartoons and Star Trek,
was there any thing worth the time?
Even as a kid, I knew that TV=crap.
Do I own a TV? Yes, but only DVDs
and no crud from hollywood.
Read a book.
I recommend: “Our enemy,The State” by Albert J. Nock
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:26 am 33. John:To hell with Walter Cronkite and good riddance to bad baggage.
And that’s the way it was.
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:27 am 34. Instapundit » Blog Archive » AND THAT’S THE WAY IT WASN’T: Ed Driscoll on Walter Cronkite nostalgia. The nostalgia isn’t for lo…:[...] THAT’S THE WAY IT WASN’T: Ed Driscoll on Walter Cronkite nostalgia. The nostalgia isn’t for lost integrity. It’s for lost [...]
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:27 am 35. ELC:I actually wrote about this almost five years ago, in “Walter Cronkite Is No More”: “One of the biggest differences, Faithful Reader, between then and now is that no Walter Cronkite can make a pronouncement in flat contradiction to reality and have it become the dominant factor in public opinion without being challenged mightily. Walter Cronkite, of course, is only emblematic of the larger mainstream media — a wing of the Democratic Establishment — that no longer has a monopoly on the dissemination of information & opinion.”
http://weblog.theviewfromthecore.com/2004_08/ind_003941.html
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:30 am 36. red:—-Cronkite was SO misinformed about our actual and brilliant VICTORY during Tet, that the war only dragged on for another SEVEN years—
This is what passes for lefty historical thought. A very significant victory was not a victory because of the following events.
That doublespeak allows the “thinker” to ignore the point of the article. Nice safe cognitive-propaganda cucoon the left has built for itself.
sarcasm /on: Thank goodness the Democratic Congress of 1974 could screw the South Vietnamese and hand the North Vietnamese aggressors the victory in war. sarcasm /off – THAT THEY LOST A TET
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:32 am 37. NCBob:Walter was a traitor, pure and simple. The Stalinists recruited many, many US newspaper people in the early ’30s; Cronkite was one of them. They did Moscow’s bidding and bad mouthing the US action in Nam was one of the things Walter was ordered to do.
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:33 am 38. John Henry Eden:Used Car Salesmen > Pond Scum > Pond Scum Excrement > Journalists
Jul 19, 2009 - 7:39 am 39. lonetown:To see how low they’ve fallen, look at who represents the voice of America now!
I don’t think America will rise again as a beacon of freedom until the whole corrupt media pr network is crushed. and that does not appear to be far off.
Jul 19, 2009 - 8:01 am 40. Jim T:Let’s face it, Walter Cronkite was much more objective than his replacement. There is little doubt he was a liberal and perhaps we didn’t have a great perspective on that since all the news people, at the time, were liberals. Even though HE was liberal, we still have conservatives all around us, we had some conservative teachers, some conservative lawmakers, some conservative television personalities, although they didn’t have to call themselves that at the time. You could tell that certain people just thought differently about our country.
What liberals have done, not just to television; but to the whole country, is to take away honest debate. I can tell you when it happened, 1968. I can’t tell you why we allowed it to happen. Anyway, the same radicals, protesting on the streets in 1968, ended up being elected to Congress and pushing their agenda and politics on the rest of us. If you didn’t agree with them, you became the enemy. If you didn’t believe, as they believed, you were for killing children, just like the soldiers did in Vietnam.
The problem with politics now is these people are still there. The Nancy Pelosis, Henry Waxmans, Chuck Schumers, never seeking compromise, always trying to demonize their opponents. They were successful in poisoning the media with their politics which has brought us to where we are today. Thankfully, we have talk radio and Fox News, where the truth wins out more than not and it keeps some hateful politicians honest.
Walter Cronkite, when he retired, was the end of an era. Hopefully, we can look for another end of an era when Katie retires and CBS tries something different, objective news reporting.
Jul 19, 2009 - 8:02 am 41. Koblog:Cronkite would be proud, as the MSM lies continue.
During Katrina, there was good ol’ boy Shep Smith sittin’ on his a$$ on the bridge in New Awleans, reading the teleprompter.
“Look how those poor people below me [literally and figuratively] are high and dry and not being served by the heartless administration! Somebody DO something.”
“Furthermore, tens of thousands are reportedly dead, cannibalism is taking place inside the Superdome, bodies stacked in freezers, rapes, etc, etc.”
All lies. Then the MSM gave itself awards for reporting so well. Vomit.
In reality, Katrina was the Coast Guard’s (and the world’s) greatest, most effective disaster rescue effort in history. Never have so many stupid people who refused to evacuate get rescued from their attics and roofs by so few so fast.
But it was never reported, so it didn’t happen.
It didn’t fit the narrative.
I wrote Shepard Smith off at that moment, as I had written off Cronkite’s CBS, NBC and ABC years earlier.
Jul 19, 2009 - 8:16 am 42. Barry 0351:Rest in Peace ya lyibn’ old floggin’ commie.
Jul 19, 2009 - 8:30 am 43. ApolloTalkTalkTalk:“And that’s the way he wants it to be.”
Have fun reporting in hell.
Cronkite had a great voice, but he was an incredible blowhard, I thought. During the Apollo program, Cronkite would not shut up during key moments. He was a huge fan of the space program, which was great. But on TV, it was all about him.
I remember during some part of some mission, the voice feed between the astronauts and mission control was being played on the air. Cronkite had to paraphrase or explain 5 times every single thing that was said, as:
Mission control: *crackle* Turn on oxygen valve 2.
Astronaut: *crackle* Roger. Oxygen valve 2. On.
Cronkite: The astronauts have been told to turn on the oxygen valve. They’re now turning on the oxygen. Oxygen is beginning to flow from oxygen valve 2, a critical valve in the historic Apollo flight to the moon. Once again, the astronauts are turning on the oxygen…
While Cronkite chattered, all kinds of interesting things were being communicated on the NASA voice feed — well, interesting to space fans.
I came to really appreciate John Chancellor at NBC, who would sometimes just sit back and say, “Let’s listen to the astronauts as they explore the moon.” (or whatever)
Jul 19, 2009 - 8:36 am 44. JohnMM:First time poster here.
This is a response to BC- Tet was the Vietnam equivalent of the Battle of the Bulge, a last ditch effort by a desperate enemy. However, unlike the pro-American reporters of WWII, the press completely lied about the outcome.
The North Vietnamese were ready to sue for peace after their defeat but then saw the change in public opinion caused by the MSM. They decided to hold out and Watergate helped them get what they wanted. All of the deaths after Tet are clearly on the hands of the MSM/Democrats.
Not to mention the propaganda they spewed about our soldiers. It took years to get their honor back and they’re trying again with the Persian Gulf vets.
Unfortunately the misinformed in the middle still use Katie and Oprah as legitimate sources of information. That’s the problem.
Jul 19, 2009 - 8:38 am 45. Chuck Pelto:TO: JohnMM, et al.
RE: Only the TIP….
….of the proverbial ‘iceberg’.
The root cause of the ‘problem’ is that the vaunted American public education system has been teaching people WHAT to think as opposed to HOW to think….for themselves…..
Without that basic essential skill….people will always accept liars like Oprah, Coric, Rather, etc., etc., etc…..at face value.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 19, 2009 - 9:04 am 46. the dark one:[A lie will travel half-way around the world, before the Truth can get its pants on.]
Regarding Dan Rather’s Texas-isms – how can something be both “hoary” and “made-up”? Just curious.
Jul 19, 2009 - 10:32 am 47. Chuck Pelto:TO: the dark one
RE: Please….
….explain how the two terms are mutually exclusive.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. If you need a good dictionary….
…there are plenty on-line….
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:06 am 48. Joe Jackson:While I don’t object to the overall tenor of this piece, the author(s) understanding of the history of broadcasting is a little less than complete. To wit: “A mass media that increasingly eschewed vibrant political debate helped FDR win four presidential elections handily….” is a statement guilty of hyperbole. Radio news, as a serious purveyor of information, didn’t exist until Wold War II. (Unless you consider people like Father Coughlin and H. V. Kaltenborn as “serious”.) Television didn’t exist at all. So the election of FDR to his first three terms has to be laid squarely (if anywhere) at the feet of newspapers and magazines. Also, the Fairness Doctrine didn’t compel the networks to do anything for the very simple reason that the networks weren’t then, and aren’t now, licensed by the government. Radio and TV stations are licensed individually. (Yes, yes the networks owned and operated stations are licensed, but in 1949, the year the Fairness Doctrine became law, the networks were allowed to own fewer than a dozen each. 1949 was a little too late to do FDR any good.
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:07 am 49. Chuck Pelto:TO: Joe Jackson
RE: I Disagree
Witness the so-called MSM during the run-up to the 2008 General Election. And, for further evidence, witness how they have comported themselves SINCE.
As I’ve stated in THIS thread and so-many-others, the general population—thanks to the vaunted American public ‘education’ system—hasi sold itself into bondage because they haven’t got the education necessary to think for themselves. They get all their thoughts from the MSM. Herr Goebbels would be ‘proud’…..
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:17 am 50. Chuck Pelto:[A popular government without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy, or perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives. -- President James Madison]
P.S. Guess where US is today? Three guesses….first two don’t count…..
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:17 am 51. Chicago Boyz » Blog Archive » A Parliament of Clocks Bumped:[...] [...]
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:23 am 52. BC:To JohnMM: Nope, while the North Vietnamese did bite off more than they could chew with Tet, it wasn’t that debilitating since there was no indication that the US was going to follow through on the opportunity, which made for a completely different scenario from the Battle of the Bulge. Most importantly, and as I pointed out, Tet pretty clearly showed the US and Pentagon in particular had been lying about what was really going on. From that point on, it wasn’t just Cronkite who became doubtful, suspicious and cynical, and things really hit the fan when a little thing called The Pentagon Papers came out.
The malicious dumbasses at places like Hot Air and The Free Republic should just choke on all that ignorant bile they’ve been spewing out about Cronkite. It was that exact same type of moronic, bloody and arrogant “thinking” by the fools running the Pentagon at the time of Vietnam who were the real villains and therefore the ones who should be blamed for how things turned out. But logic and rightwingery….
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:38 am 53. Joe Jackson:To: Chuck(le)
Fr: Joe Jackson
I think you misunderstood me. I was objecting to conflating RADIO during the 20s and 30s as a form of mass media that competed in the news/info arena. Of course radio did compete in the entertainment arena. But news on radio, taken seriously by both sender and receiver, virtually began with Ed Murrow.
Jul 19, 2009 - 11:51 am 54. Chuck Pelto:TO: Joe Jackson
RE: Musindestandings
Could be. English is so much more prone to such mistakes than most other languages on this ball-o-dirt.
RE: In the ‘Beginning’
My point is that, currently, as I see it, the vast majority of people amongst US haven’t got more than two synapses to rub together….
…thanks to darn near EVERY ‘PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM TEACHER’ in America.
Is your point different from that? Or says everything is ‘just fine’?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 19, 2009 - 12:07 pm 55. savage24:P.S. Be advised that I know a few of them that are ‘kind hearted’ creatures. And, I suspect their lack of ‘backbone’ contributed to this mess US find ourselves in today…..
Cronkite was just as objective as Larry King. I was in Oklahoma when good old Walt told the country we were in a energy crisis. There was gas wars going on at that time, 19 and 20 cents a gallon, the next morning the prices were way up and you could only buy five gallons at a time. I never believed him again. By the way he was a great believer in one world government.You can make a hero out of this bum, I won’t!
Jul 19, 2009 - 12:26 pm 56. Paul Gross:I was 20, in ROTC and save for a medical condition that appeared later would have been in Nam. I had friends who did serve and die there. I listened to Walter every night and like most believed what he said. Uncle Walt wouldn’t lie to us, would he? Well the realization some years later that not only did he lie, but nobody called him on it is why I no longer trust the media. Rather’s escapades combined with any number of polls showing how biased the media really are, reinforce that belief. The ready availability of opposing viewpoints is the greatest gift of the Internet. I guess we should all thank AlGore for it. The realization that it is increasingly difficult to control the message is the reason the current administration is so frantic to enact their agenda before those opposing voices cause his “mandate” to fracture.
Jul 19, 2009 - 12:35 pm 57. B Dubya:Cronkite’s “higher truth” came from having his nose put out of joint because Westmoreland and his staff would not let him in on the day to day “secret” stull that he’s been bribed with by senior commanders in SHAEF in WWII.
It wasn’t ideology. It was pique.
What a little, untalented man he was, really.
Jul 19, 2009 - 12:38 pm 58. Chuck Pelto:TO: B Dubya, et al.
RE: Heh
That would go a LONG ways in explaining his treasonous actions. Too bad that ‘President’ Johnson didn’t have the ‘gonads’ to cope with it. But—HEY!—he was a ‘Democrat’….You know….gutless wonder….at heart. Just like all of the rest of those sort around US today.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
P.S. I just hope my grown children can survive this situation…..
Jul 19, 2009 - 12:47 pm 59. Jack_Davis:When Cronkite when from journalist to editorialist, he was through. From his comment about Vietnam to the end of the line, he was a dead man walking.
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:05 pm 60. Joe Jackson:To: Chuck Pelto
Fr: Joe Jackson
My comments weren’t meant to address public education (or lack thereof) nor did they. They addressed a specific assertion made in the article.
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:05 pm 61. red:—-Most importantly, and as I pointed out, Tet pretty clearly showed the US and Pentagon in particular had been lying about what was really going on—
BS. The after the US victory at Tet, the Viet Cong were never again an effective militaty force. The new predominance of the North Vietnamese Regulars showed that the LEFTIES were lying about this being a ‘people’s’ war without real incitement and aggression for the North.
You lefties have the blood of lots of South Vietnamese on your hands. Please don’t rewrite history, just learn the lessons and don’t aim for American’s defeat.
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:10 pm 62. Chuck Pelto:TO: Joe Jackson
RE: Hmmmmm….
….this is beginning to look like so much ‘obfuscation’…..on YOUR part.
Too bad….
Reards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out.....]
P.S. Are you a ‘teacher’?
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:13 pm 63. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: Heh
Has ANYONE here read…..
War in the Shadows?
I mean besides myself? And I read it as part of a reading list ’suggested’ to me at the US Army Infantry Officer Advanced Course (IOAC).
Seriously?
I’d like to discuss it….in depth. Somewhere….like the website you can get to by clicking on my name.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:22 pm 64. Peg C.:P.S. I’m current re-reading it…..]
Well, as someone who has turned OFF the TV unless 1 or 2 primetime shows are on the DVR, I’m happy to be oblivious to the retrospectives of Cronkite this weekend. Another person I admired in my youth only to realize when I grew up was not much more than overpaid hot air.
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:28 pm 65. BC:To “red” and the other revisionist doofuses: things like “Rambo” are made up fiction, things like the Pentagon Papers are not. Google, and maybe even Bing, can be your friend: try using them to look up historical records, especially declassified data, from that era instead of just repeating ad nauseum the same old, now ancient and as clueless as ever right wing BS about who “lost” Vietnam.
Jul 19, 2009 - 1:45 pm 66. RIP the last shred of dignity in the mainsteam media. - Page 4 - IH8MUD Forums:[...] dissent about Cronkite: Ed Driscoll And That’s The Way It Wasn’t Roger’s Rules Walter Cronkite, World’s Most Overrated Reader of the News [...]
Jul 19, 2009 - 3:05 pm 67. Busyreader:When the subjective WHY displaced all of WHAT, WHO, WHEN and WHERE by MSM Jounalism it lost its soul. From the interview with Lamb on CSPAN I suspect even Cronkite had some pangs of conscience and tried to dump all of the CBS propagandizing on Eric Severeid. I think he did love journalism and had ink in his blood
Jul 19, 2009 - 3:14 pm 68. rich hern:I was in Vietnam from April 1967 to April 1968. I was there thru TET, we WON! I could not believe what the public had been told by Cronkite. My friends would not believe me when I told them what I had seen and been thru in Vietnam. We had killed tens of thousands of Viet Cong and NVA. Ka Song was a huge defeat for the NVA. The Marines and the 1st Air Cav buried a lot of NVA soldiers. I hated Walter Cronkite, he was a blowhard who did not know what was happening in Vietnam. WE WON. Then the libs in Congress abandoned the South Vietnamese in 1975. Just 2 or 3 carriers would have killed the NVA invasion. May Walter meet with some Marines and troopers who died in Vietnam, on he way to HELL.
Jul 19, 2009 - 3:17 pm 69. Revnant Dream:My Granny used to say:” Don’t believe 80% of what you read & of 90% what you hear. Plus only 50 % what you see. In 53 years I have observed she has never been wrong.
Particularly when it comes to two people or more.
Cronkite unfortunately was with the forces of dis-information for Statism.
Jul 19, 2009 - 3:49 pm 70. BC:Dan Rather was his student never forget.
The rest of the MSM have followed the yellow watered road towards socialism. Journalism schools are pest holes for Marxists. Real Reporters have become almost become extinct with the advent of these schools of collectivism. Add to the fact Academia loves their hobby horse communism & you get Obama with a Saul Linsky mentality. Political relativism conjoined to cultural equality spells social death. The press with this guy started it all including PC. That’s why no one watches or reads these phonies anymore. Where on to them.
JMO
To rich hern: yeah, well, I happened to have known a few Vietnam vets: some were shattered, some wanted to move back there some day, some had adventures, some saw little if any action, some had all sorts of opinions, some just wanted to put it all behind and get back to the real world, but *none* really knew for sure WTF was going on, and at least half thought that was also the case with their commanders. Unless you were privy to top level intel and plans, you nor anyone else can say what was going on beyond the snapshots from your own personal experiences. And do you know how many American soldiers died over there in just that year officially? 16,592. That’s nearly 4 times how many Americans have died in Iraq since it started.
Jul 19, 2009 - 4:06 pm 71. rich hern:You don’t know what was REALLY happening, you only saw a portion of the war. This is the same BS I was told when i went to Univ of Ill at Chicago, you had to NOT be there to really know what was really happening. I got this BS from most of the profs and most of the students, NONE who has BEEN in Viet Nam, much less the military.Same old tired lib BS, you didnt see what you saw. How many times did was i told by these same jerk, unless you had been thru what he, insert the name of who ever was the personn de jure, you can’t know what motivates, re excuses his illegal acts. What a crock you libs are. An I told Abbie Hoffman that, and his gang of 7, when they spoke at UICC.
Jul 19, 2009 - 4:37 pm 72. scythe:I was jubilant to hear Uncle Wally croaked. I put his legacy of the destruction of America right up there with that other gasbag Teddy “breast stroke” Kennedy. I hope he’s next in line. While it may not be polite to speak ill of the dead, it sure makes sense to speak ill of the deadly.
Jul 19, 2009 - 4:46 pm 73. SFC MAC:The so called “most trusted man in America” morphed into a disreputable hack in 1968 when he let his ego get in the way of “just the facts”, and veered left. He used his influence on public opinion to declare that Vietnam was “unwinnable”.
This, in spite of the fact that we beat back the NVA and Vietcong during the Tet offensive. Tet was a disaster for the Communists, who were estimated to have lost over 8000 combatants. We dealt the Vietcong insurgency in South Vietnam a devastating blow. The North Vietnamese were forced to push more of their regular army troops into combat operations, to compensate for the loss of VC fodder.
Cronkite’s feckless editorializing scored a huge propaganda victory for the enemy. The Democrats in Congress did their bit and subsequently yanked funding for the war, thus ensuring that it BECAME unwinnable.
Fast forward to 19 April 2007, when Harry Reid tried a similar stunt on the floor of the Senate, shilling for Al Qaeda in Iraq by declaring “the war is lost”. This time, the Democrats would not succeed in cutting off support, and American troops flipped the proverbial bird at asslowns like Harry by decimating the AQI and routing them out of Iraq.
Cronkite’s fatuity gained momentum in the late 1980’s and carried right through the Iraq/Afghanistan War. He thought we “overreacted” to the Soviet threat, he vented his spleen at our “unilateralism” against Islamic aggression, he loathed President George W. Bush, he called Jimmy Carter “the smartest president he ever met”, and he espoused the moronic idea of a ‘one world government’.
Buh bye, Walter. You weren’t really a wise, authoritative news anchor, you just played one on T.V.
“And that’s the way it wasn’t.”
Jul 19, 2009 - 5:53 pm 74. Walter Cronkite: The Most Trusted Communist In America « John Jacob H’s RKBA Commentary:[...] CLICK HERE and HERE Published in: [...]
Jul 19, 2009 - 6:24 pm 75. BC:To rich hern: Sorry, but anybody in law enforcement will tell you that eyewitness accounts are usually not very reliable as evidence. It doesn’t matter how absolutely sure you are about what you saw and what it meant — chances are that it will still amount to no more than the equivalent a few blurry snapshots of random things with little or no context to give them that much meaning.
I was involved in trying to break up a nasty club fight a few years back. I was in the thick of things from beginning to end, right up until the club was empty except for me and two others pondering almost in awe at the amount of blood and broken glass on the floor. It had been a packed club, so plenty of other people were around, but when you ask 10 of them what happened, you get 10 different answers. I got into an online debate one time not long ago with some fools who had their own version of what happened that night. But it turned out that they had stepped out before the crucial moment and only had heard what other people had said about it afterwards. But they were nevertheless so sure in their mind about what had happened. That’s just the way it is (so to speak) with people.
Jul 19, 2009 - 9:36 pm 76. rich hern:Something that happens in a split second or in a bar fight that is over in a couple of minutes, often a lot less, is very different that seeing what is happening all round you over a period of 2 to 3 months. The immediate ‘bar fight’ rush does not last that long, so I know what I speak of. What I and the other veterans i have spoken to who were boots on ground for TET know what they saw over the three months TET 1968 lasted. I got the same BS when I went to school later at Univ Illinois Chicago Circle, I did not see what I saw and lived thru. I was blinded by the light? not!
Jul 19, 2009 - 9:47 pm 77. Chuck Pelto:TO: BC
RE: REALLY??!?!?!?
Then please explain why they are accepted in a court of law.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:17 am 78. BC:[The Truth will out....BC is an idiot.....]
To rich hern: Metaphorically Tet was basically a coordinated attack at more than a hundred bars by a gang who was suppose to have been close to collapse according to what law enforcement and government officials had been telling everyone. Even if it was clear that the attackers got their butts kicked, how could such a widespread attack have happened if, as the government had been claiming, the people responsible were fading as a threat? As declassified documents like this CIA one shows, the North Vietnamese were no fools and were able to tactically adjust to the US’s vastly greater advantage in both firepower and personnel to make the Vietnam war one of attrition. While the North Vietnamese did indeed had hoped for and encouraged increasing domestic antiwar sentiment in the US and the West in general, that was just part of a smart, overall plan that successfully out maneuvered Westmoreland and his crew, despite their increasingly brutal and clandestine tactics.
Another declassified CIA doctries to show that there might be a morale issue developing among the weary North Vietnamese, but there were no “mights” about how the war was affecting the morale of US soldiers — do you want to take a guess at how many of them deserted between 1960 and 1973? 503,926! It was an ugly, dirty, badly mismanaged war overall, and its legacy is just as ugly, from the bitterness misdirected to Cronkite, to the seemingly endless landmines and unexploded ordnance (”UXO”) left deposited.
Jul 20, 2009 - 5:26 am 79. Warpublican:“You lefties have the blood of lots of South Vietnamese on your hands.”
That’s pretty rich – it wasn’t the decade of ariel bombings or the napalm or the artillery or the bullets or the landmines or the defoliant or the fixed-wing and helicopter sorties in the millions or the assassinations or the naval warfare – it was the peaceniks, Jane Fonda and Walter Cronkite with the bloody hands…
Jul 20, 2009 - 6:23 am 80. Joe Jackson:Good one. We now return to the show!
To: Chuck Pelto
Fr: Joe Jackson
I am not a teacher; I’m a retired broadcaster (engineer, manager, owner). I am sorry my attempt at clarification led you to charge with me “obfuscation”. What seems to upset you is my refusal to ride your own personal hobby horse.
BTW, one of my all time bumper stickers reads, “Eschew Obfuscation”.
Best.
Jul 20, 2009 - 7:47 am 81. barrymugabe:I got banned from a blog for suggesting Cronkite gave aid and comfort to our enemies. Typical Liberals, can’t stand to be confronted with opinions that conflict with their own. This was my reply to someone that asked me what my problem was with Cronkite:
I actually liked the guy growing up. I loved the Kennedys too. But as I grew and began to think for myself, I realized that the elitist, Liberal/Progressive agenda of Democrats like Ted Kennedy and most of those in the mainstream media (like Cronkite) and Hollywood ran counter to my interests.
( For the record: Republicans are just as bad now so this is not a Democrat vs Republican issue)
They cultivated the notion that the American way of life was intrinsically and uniquely unfair, racist and bigoted. They persuaded millions of Americans that our system of government was inherently unjust, malevolent and principally engaged in nefarious pursuits. While you can find evil in any human institution or social group, the leftist cultural elite successfully impregnated the American psyche with the idea that American society was especially evil; that self-doubt and self-hatred was a virtue and the espousing of such ideas was a sign of intellectual depth and superiority.
Sure, the seeds of “Progressivism” and Liberalism were sown long before Cronkite, but he was the most powerful media figure of the 60’s and 70’s and was the epitome of the “Martha’s Vinyard Elitist” who popularized vacuous, self-righteous, smug, liberalism that has appealed to millions of the faux-educated, self-absorbed yuppies of the post WWII era.
So, to me, Cronkite stands for all that has undermined our society. He and his elitist ilk, through their ignorance, stupidity, neglect and outright advocacy gave the political cover for horrendously destructive politicians like Ted Kennedy to enact legislation that has ( not in any particular order) 1) Undermined our social and ethic homogeneity with immigration laws that have led to lawless illegal immigration and legal immigration of people that have no interest or incentive to assume the language and customs of the dominant culture; 2) Undermined the rule of law with racial, ethnic and sex preference legislation 3) Undermined our economy and freedom with onerous wealth confiscating social engineering programs 4) Given aid and comfort to all that opposed our society which had emerged from WWII as the strongest nation largely because of our unique traditions, system of government and institutions.
In summation, Cronkite and his ilk felt guilty for the success of America and saw no danger in advocating the undermining of our society. He thought himself smarter and more open-minded for his views; he enjoyed the approval of his peers and like all liberals, ignored and avoided the evidence that the implementation of laws and policy that reflected his views caused the moral, social and economic decay that has destroyed our freedom and sovereignty.
Jul 20, 2009 - 7:56 am 82. rakehell:Warpublican said:
“Cronkite was SO misinformed about our actual and brilliant VICTORY during Tet, that the war only dragged on for another SEVEN years.”
Red said:
“This is what passes for lefty historical thought. A very significant victory was not a victory because of the following events.
That doublespeak allows the “thinker” to ignore the point of the article. Nice safe cognitive-propaganda cucoon the left has built for itself.”
No, Red, it’s actual thought. It’s called critical thinking in the real world outside your head.
While the Tet Offensive resulted in massive casualties to the NVA and Viet Cong, it was only a tactical victory for our side. It was a complete and total strategic victory for General Giap on two fronts.
You see, Giap didn’t fall for Westmoreland’s rather clumsy plan at Khe Sanh, though he played along with it to deceive U.S. intelligence. He had his own plan to execute instead.
Only a few days before Tet Gen. Westmoreland pointed to the body counts and claimed that we controlled 95% of South Vietnam – a light at the end of the tunnel statement. That evening, Americans realized we didn’t even control the front yard of our own embassy in Saigon, much less the rest of the country. There had been more than 200 surprise attacks, most were defeated easily, but one shouldn’t be surprised if one is, in fact, “winning.” The war was thus lost in the course of a single afternoon.
Furthermore, despite overwhelming force, it took us a month to retake Hue city. In the course of WW2 and Korea, no city battle had taken that long for US forces.
Giap and Ho Chi Minh had another problem as well. The most important force that could prevent re-unification of Vietnam, outside of ours, was the Viet Cong. The Viet Cong had no intention of marching in lockstep with the Government of the DRV after war. They expected to have power in the south – it was their country after all. At least the VC saw it that way. There had been instances of NVA and VC forces fighting each other already. What would happen when the war was over?
Giap’s and the DRV solution was to do away with as much of the Viet Cong as possible. Tet provided them with that opportunity. The VC became a minor force after their losses in the offensive and the DRV then directed the war as they saw fit using primarily NVA forces.
Overall, Cronkite’s assessment was correct as time has ultimately proven.
Jul 20, 2009 - 8:25 am 83. Chuck Pelto:TO: Joe Jackson
RE: Well….
You being a self-professed ‘broadcaster’ just might have something to do with your ‘unwillingness’.
I don’t seem to recall you chastising your brethren about their malfeasance, therefore, I suspect you’re from that camp most of US here are decrying.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:02 pm 84. Chuck Pelto:[The Truth will out.....]
P.S. Be advised, this system ALREADY put on the name of the sender. Your FR: is unnecessary redundancy.
[Eschew obfuscation, anon!]
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:03 pm 85. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: [OT] My Reference to War In the Shadows
A great book on guerrilla warfare, for over the last 2000 years. The first volume is everything up to Viet Nam. The second volume, which I’ll get to in another couple of weeks, is ALL ABOUT Nam.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:05 pm 86. Chuck Pelto:[It's AMAZING how much history repeats itself. Especially with respect to guerrilla warfare......]
TO: rakehell
RE: Fool!
Cronkite was a major factor in the loss war for US. It’s as simple as that.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:09 pm 87. rich hern:P.S. And LBJ vis-a-vis McNamara were the other major factors……
My point about Cronkiteis this: suppose in Dec 1994 Ed Murrow did a radio broadcast declaring that because the Germans had surprised the Allies with the Ardenne attack, the Battle of the Bulge, that America had lost the war, since ‘everyone’ knew German was defeated. We were going home for Christmas or New Years.
Jul 20, 2009 - 5:41 pm 88. rich hern:The 101st airborne and the other US troops in Bastogne might have given up. The 2 months with the most US dead and wounded were January and February 1945. I quess the ‘defeated’ Germans may have had something to do with these numbers. ALso on civilian casualties, the Germans had over 4 million civilians killed.
I would also consider the Berlin airlift as a continuation of this war, just a new enemy, sort of switching from the Viet Cong to the NVA, only from the Nazis to the Commies ( opps) Soviets.
My point about Cronkiteis this: suppose in Dec 1944 Ed Murrow did a radio broadcast declaring that because the Germans had surprised the Allies with the Ardennes attack, the Battle of the Bulge, that America had lost the war, since ‘everyone’ knew German was defeated. We were going home for Christmas or New Years.
Jul 20, 2009 - 6:23 pm 89. Now and Then:The 101st airborne and the other US troops in Bastogne might have given up. The 2 months with the most US dead and wounded were January and February 1945. I quess the ‘defeated’ Germans may have had something to do with these numbers. ALso on civilian casualties, the Germans had over 4 million civilians killed. Pay Back, my mother was a nurse in England, and as she ’saw’ it, more civilians were killed by Germans in 1944 than in the Battle of Britain in 1940. She only got to dispose of the body parts that were no longer attached.
I would also consider the Berlin airlift as a continuation of this war, just a new enemy, sort of switching from the Viet Cong to the NVA, only from the Nazis to the Commies ( opps) Soviets.
I think it’s clear that around here the most trusted an in America is Mark Sanford . . . forget that . . . John Ensign . . . forget that . . . let’s go with Todd Palin . . until . . .
Ed: We reach Eliot Spitzer, John Edwards, Jim McGreevy, Ted Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Gavin Newsom…
Jul 20, 2009 - 7:46 pm 90. Ruvy:Some have raised the bloody shirt of Vietnam in denouncing the late Walter Cronkite. Let’s leave aside the fact that it is lacking in class to drag a good man in the mud a day or two after he has died. Let’s look at the bloody shirt, rather than the man who read the news about it. That bloody shirt still has the stink of blood; it still has the stink of stupidity of sending young men to die for nothing in a swamp and a rice paddy.
It was clear in 1965 to this young man in Brooklyn that the Americans were mired in the muck in Vietnam; they were unwilling to do what it would take to win; they were unable to walk away, admitting loss; they were unable to think themselves into a victory – one that I envisioned in 1965 as a teenager.
It took over three years for opponents of a waste of blood and money to even begin to get their point across. Three years of American kids dying; three years of American generals getting hot in the pants over the victory they would not be allowed to seek; three years of politicians pretending they knew foreign policy when obviously they didn’t have a clue.
The problem with the Vietnam War was not that it was morally wrong. Morals do not have a place in foreign policy at all, unless you honestly believe you are fighting a war sanctioned by G-d, and you believe you are fighting His wars of justice. [Huh?--Ed]
Vietnam was none of these things. A deal of sorts could have been made with Ho Chi Minh, who was more a nationalist than a communist, to create a Vietnamese “Yugoslavia” in Southesast Asia, a neutral communist state that would give the Russians and Chinese the middle finger with the tacit backing of the United States. American troops could have gone home and conservatives could have spent their time screaming at the butter souring in the Great Society plate, instead of trying to justify the drafting of thousands of young men for a useless war in Southeast Asia. Much of the radicalization of American society could have been avoided, and its subsequent sliding down a moral scale to drug-induced pornographic infotainment could have been checked to a degree before it occurred.
That this did not happen is not the fault of a news-reader, no matter how important he might have eventually deluded himself as being.
It was the fault of the American voter, who believed the pleasant lies of Lyndon Johnson, instead of the unpleasant truths of Barry Goldwater in 1964. It took three years for those voters to wake up; even then, it took anoter eight years of Americans dying in Vietnam, eight years of embitterment and cynicism, eight years for the values that had once guided America to curdle into a sour parody of what they had once been, before the last Americans died in Southeast Asia.
Do not blame Walter Cronkite for any of this. Whatever his faults, these cannot be listed among them.
Jul 20, 2009 - 11:13 pm 91. vivo:From what I read here, Pajammers would have liked to have a much longer Vietnam war and millions killed. How sweet it is . . .
Jul 21, 2009 - 5:12 am 92. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: Now and Then….
….we discover another ‘jackass’. And a rather immature one to boot….
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Why is it that when ‘progressives’—what a misnomer—want to deride someone, they bring up ’sex’, instead of logic?
Hence my comment about this one being rather ‘immature’……
Jul 21, 2009 - 6:24 am 93. Chuck Pelto:TO: All
RE: vivo…..
….obviously was (1) born much later than that war, (2) was never taught anything useful about it, and (3) doesn’t have the brains to learn anything useful from it.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 21, 2009 - 6:26 am 94. Moho:[The Truth will out....]
What a bunch of bullshit. Cronkite didn’t argue that the Tet Offensive was a military failure. That wasn’t his point at all. Rather, how history remembers the Tet Offensive is exactly the way Cronkite described it–this would not be an easy victory.
“The Vietcong did not win by a knockout [in the Tet Offensive], but neither did we. The referees of history may make it a draw. . . . We have been too often disappointed by the optimism of the American leaders, both in Vietnam and Washington, to have faith any longer in the silver linings they find in the darkest clouds. . . .
“For it seems now more certain than ever that the bloody experience of Vietnam is to end in a stalemate. . . . To say that we are closer to victory today is to believe, in the face of the evidence, the optimists who have been wrong in the past” — Walter Cronkite, CBS Evening News, February 27, 1968.
That was the challenge confronting Americans–whether to dump more American lives and money into a potential endless moral and financial vacuum. Frankly, I’m not surprised that you have this horrifically ignorant and asinine recollection of the Vietnam War. Its the same kind of attitude that led to our current miring in two wars at once. Its these wars, rather than Barack Obama’s nascent stewardship, that have led to our current state as debt-ridden paupers, something that was never and is never examined here. The fact that if you fight a multi-trillion dollar set of wars in perpetuity you screw over your economy is manifest to just about the dumbest hillbilly you’ll find.
Ed: So you’re OK with the carnage in Vietnam and its neighboring regions after the Democratic Congress of the mid-’70s pulled the rug out from the SVA?
Jul 21, 2009 - 11:26 am 95. Chuck Pelto:TO: Moho
RE: Sooooo…..
…..tell all of US how it was back then Moho. You sound as if you were cogent at the time.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Jul 21, 2009 - 4:32 pm 96. vivo:P.S. When were you born?
93. Chuck Pelto:
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