On a Monday afternoon ten days ago I sat down with Tariq Ramadan to debate the Danish cartoons. The debate was moderated by Danish journalist and editor Martin Krasnik and took place in Mr. Ramadan’s office in northwest London. Mr. Ramadan asserted that he had advised his followers in Denmark ”to ignore the provocation” by Jyllands-Posten, i.e. publication of 12 cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed. The debate went on for almost two hours, and Mr. Krasnik is writing a feature story for a magazine that will be published next year.
I think the principal disagreement was clarified during an exchange about the famous cartoon depicting the Mohammed with a bomb in his turban. Ramadan insisted that this cartoon was saying that the prophet was a terrorist. I replied that to me and the author of the cartoon it was about Muslims committing terrorist acts in the name of Islam and the Prophet. Ramadan rejected this interpretation and called on me not to ignore the perception of the cartoon by millions of Muslims.
”Thank you,” I said, ”you have just proven my point, that in a multicultural democracy one has from time to time to accept offense, because different groups, different believers and non-believers, will have different understandings of what can be said and published and what can not.”
In this case many Muslims had a different reading of the cartoon than the cartoonist himself.
Ramadan criticised me for being too legalistic and too focused on principles in stead of paying attention to the fact that we have to live side by side, and therefore have to be sensitive to the sensibilities of one another.
I answered that especially in a multiethnic, multicultural and multireligious society you need principles and laws to establish a common framework within which people can express themselves. If you have to avoid offending anyone every time you speak you will limit freedom dramatically (but maybe that is the intention of Mr. Ramadan and his followers?), and, in fact, in Denmark for a long time it was taboo to discuss cultural differences and criticise practices in Islam oppressing women, homosexuals or other minorities. This taboo gave rise to a nationalist party, and it is a fact that the number of refugees and immigrants in Denmark that experience discrimination according to a recent poll has decreased from 37 pct. in 2001 to 27 pct. in 2007.
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Anonymous:It seems that what we are hearing from the likes of Ramadan is that non-muslims in predominantly non-muslim nations need to be sensitive to the feelings of muslims while the issue of maltreatment of non-muslims in the muslim cultures is excused or ignored. I wonder if he addressed the treatment of ex-muslims, jews and christians in places like Iran.
It’s also intersting that he advises his followers to ignore the provocation, but agrees to discuss it with you.
Oct 18, 2007 - 6:48 pm Morton Doodslag:Since Muslims are taught from infancy that Muslims are superior in every way — and that non-Muslims are inferior in every way — That Islam is superior to every other belief system, and that all who don’t ’submit’ to Islam are thereby impeders of Islam and fighters against Islam — none of Ramadan’s (or any other Muslims’) rage, indignancy, and overt contempt fo our society should come as any surprise.
Muslims aren’t interested in “co-existing” - -there is NO CONCEPT within Islam for this Western fantasy of “co-existing” — even the so-called “moderates” among Muslims, if they follow the requirements of Islam must wish to see Islam dominate, and all other systems to be subjugated by Islam.
In my way of thinking, Muslims who come to the West with the hope, dream, plan, or aspiration to see Islam spread, and to see Islam’s political, social, religious, ethical, and philiosophical atmospherics replace our own sytems, laws, and traditions are guilty of betrayal of the West.
Some day, and that day may not be far off, Westerners will wake and realise what a complete nightmare it was to ever allow Muslims to come here and wage their subversion and sedition. They are openly at war with us — they state it clearly and regularly — they do not believe in our laws, except to the extent that those laws help them impose and spread Islamic laws in their stead.
Islam is a war doctrine against all non-Islamic ideologies — the extent to which a Muslims does not subscribe to this formulation is the exact extent to which he is an apostate of Islam. If the Muslim truly believes in Islam and follows Islam — then he/she is our abject enemy in the West.
Oct 18, 2007 - 10:13 pm here-to-stay:in response to “Morton Doodslag” :
he states:
“Since Muslims are taught from infancy that Muslims are superior in every way — and that non-Muslims are inferior in every way — That Islam is superior to every other belief system, and that all who don’t ’submit’ to Islam are thereby impeders of Islam and fighters against Islam”
are they? i suppose you have been into every muslim home and performed a study to actually prove this outrageous claim.
“Muslims aren’t interested in “co-existing” - -there is NO CONCEPT within Islam for this Western fantasy of “co-existing” — even the so-called “moderates” among Muslims, if they follow the requirements of Islam must wish to see Islam dominate, and all other systems to be subjugated by Islam.”
you are so far off the mark. just because we wish people to experience islam (just as anyone would want what they perceive as beneficial and good to be shared with others) it doesn’t mean we want to establish shari’a in copenhagen.
“Some day, and that day may not be far off, Westerners will wake and realise what a complete nightmare it was to ever allow Muslims to come here and wage their subversion and sedition.”
this is hilarious. muslims were here in the west long before you ‘allowed’ them here. now we have muslims with blue eyes and blonde hair and just as ‘western’ as you. deal with your ‘nightmare’ - wake up and take a deep breath.
“If the Muslim truly believes in Islam and follows Islam — then he/she is our abject enemy in the West.”
i doubt all those non-muslims i see, meet, greet and have good relations with every day would agree with you - as they know and i do that i truly believe in islam and follow it.
its people like you the whole world should fear.
Oct 18, 2007 - 10:52 pm Morton Doodslag:Let’s take “here-to-stay’s” comments one by one, starting with his triumphal name…
“here-to-stay” is an assertion and a threat — an obnoxious assertion at that, as if we have no choice in the matter as to who “stays” and who doesn’t in our Western dominions. Muslims may be here now in ominous and unacceptably high numbers, they may feel perfectly confident in the unshakability of their position in the West — but there’s no guarantee that their ongoing seditions and subversions and insults of our society will continue without a serious backlash. In many sectors that backlash has begun as we reject Muslims’ endless demands for respect and their endless demands for accommodations, and their endless tantrums and rampages and such. One must wonder what such a name as “here-to-stay’s” is meant to convey…? Does it mean to convey “here-to-stay” as in, ‘I’m here to stay and contribute to your society as much as possible’? Or does it really mean “here-to-stay and there’s not a damn thing you can do about it!’? I suspect the latter, and here’s why:
“here-to-stay” then goes on to state its second laughable fallacy-strewn comment: “i suppose you have been into every muslim home and performed a study to actually prove this outrageous claim.”
I don’t need to go into “every muslim home ” to prove that Islam is a triumphal doctrine, and that Islam preaches Islamic World Supremacy, or that Muslims pray for Islam to dominate everywhere it rears its ugly head. All I need to do is read the Koran, and read the Hadith and Sura — those embarrassing pious Islamic histories written by contemporaneous Muslims which convey the vile thoughts, atrocious actions, and murderous intentions of Islam’s founder, that maniac Muhammad. He spread Islam by the sword. He personally waged 78 battles in his horrific lifetime to kill and wage Jihad to spread Islam. He personally slaughtered people by his own hand, and caused the death of thousands upon thousands during his lifetime, and hundreds of millions after for the sake of Islam. Muhammad stole — he kidnapped, he raped little girls, he waged genocide — he personally caused people to be beheaded in his presence, he gouged out their eyes, he caused the severing before his dais their opposite arms and legs, he yanked out tongues, and committed other atocities on innocents. This is the man on whom Islam is based. The actions of this genocidal maniac serve as the basis for immitation for Muslims for all times. He is your uswa hasana, your al-insan al-kamil your perfect model for all human behavior for all time. THIS is why the Jihadists are pure Muslims — this is why there’s all the murder for the sake of Islam — all the beheadings and murdering of innocents, and hatred of Jews and so-called “infidels” — Muhammad set the example for all Muslims for all times for all of these vile forms of anti-social behavior.
Or do you deny this? If so — explain yourself.
The recording of Muhammad’s heinous delusions in the Koran and the record of the events and actions of his life serve as the immutable texts for all of Islam’s laws — for all of Islam’s traditions — and for all of Islam’s atmospherics for all time.
As if I needed more, for further evidence about the triumphal creed of Islam, all I need to do is read transcripts and listen to speeches delivered by Muslim religious “authorities” across the Globe about the dirtiness and inferiority of “infidels” and the universal wonderfulness of Islam — wonderfulness that seems woefully lacking but which is endlessly and mindlessly trumpeted and asserted by Muslims such as “here-to-stay” who assert such without the slightest evidence that ANYTHING is superior about Islam ANYWHERE. You exemplify the type of triumphalist inanity of Islam and Muslims, and for that I must thank you for serving as a specimen.
Next, “here-to-stay” says “just because we wish people to experience islam (just as anyone would want what they perceive as beneficial and good to be shared with others) it doesn’t mean we want to establish shari’a in copenhagen.” Yet isn’t this a distinction without a difference? “here-to-stay” first admits that part of his/her obligation as a Muslim is da’wa — that is the “sharing” with others of the wonderfulness of Islam — yet isn’t he/she really simply proselytizing for the spread of Islam and all the atmospherics that go with it? Atmospherics which include hatred of infidels, hatred of gays, hatred of Western institutions such as our secular man-made laws — the kinds of laws that Muhammad and his terror God Allah wish to see extinguished from the face of the earth? Isn’t that what Muslims bring with them when they bring us their “Islam” and share their “Islam”?
Whenever and wherever Islam rears its ugly head, sure to follow are the endless ‘honor killings’, insane rage, venomous hatred, genocide, Jew-hatred, infidel hatred, female genital mutilation, all of these manifestations of sharia also rear their ugly heads. The sheer presence of Muslims on non-Islamic soil indicates that sharia has arrived — there is no future tense to it — despite “here-to-stay’s” clever and sinister denials — if Muslims reside here, then sharia resides here too.
I could go on and on, but I’ll conclude by pointing out “here-to-stay’s” ludicrous attempt to parasitize the civil rights movements in the West by asserting that there’s some “racial” component to my utter aversion to his/her vile religion. There is no racial component. I never made any racial argument.
It’s “here-to-stay” who conflates “muslims with blue eyes and blonde hair ” as a stopper to debate or discussion — shoe-horning his/her Jihad to lie for Islam and whitewash Islam into the context of a “racial argument” wherein it’s then possible to levy the show stopping allegation of “racism” against me.
Who cares if Muslims are brown, black, white or blue-eyed and blond? If a Muslim believes in Islam, and supports therefore the spread of Islam and all that Islam entails — then that person is antithetical to the humanist values, traditions, and laws of the West.
Muslims don’t belong here. They don’t wish to live here in harmony. And they intend only to use our laws to further their eternal agenda of spreading Islam until Islam dominates everywhere — which in the end means our laws traditions and rights would cease under Islam’s disgusting imperialistic hegemony. Before it’s too late, I encourage Westerners to educate themselves about all the “here-to-stay’s” in the West and their religion of hatred and intolerance — the Muslims will always call those who impede them and resist their heinous religion “enemies” and “bigots” and “dangerous” — but if we haven’t figured out yet that the Muslims are a genuine existential menace, and further, take the steps to make sure that Islam IS NOT here to stay, then we will regret it immeasurably. It’s imperative for our very survival, and the survival of the systems and societies which our forebears fought and died for to bequeath us!
Oct 19, 2007 - 2:35 am venividivici:here-to-stay,
At the pace that your co-religionists are going, you’re going to have to change your name to gone-tomorrow. I just hope it all goes down while I’m young and can still contribute.
In any case,
i suppose you have been into every muslim home and performed a study to actually prove this outrageous claim.
See, there’s this little science known as statistics. Since it’s not in the Koran, I don’t expect your pea brain to understand it. Essentially, it allows one to make a general statement with a given level of confidence. One doesn’t have to go into “every muslim home” to prove a general statement about Muslims at, oh, say a 95% confidence level. God, if you Muslims were half as intelligent as you are stupid, you’d rule the world for real, instead of just in your fantasies.
just because we wish people to experience islam (just as anyone would want what they perceive as beneficial and good to be shared with others)
You’ve already been shown what is “beneficial and good” by the West. It starts with Greek philosophy and continues on through the Enlightenment and modern age. Islam is completely superfluous and external to the concepts “beneficial and good”. The world would improve a million-fold if Islam disappeared tomorrow.
now we have muslims with blue eyes and blonde hair and just as ‘western’ as you.
I know. We call them “morons”. How proud you must be that the scum of Western society are a natural fit with your cult.
muslims were here in the west long before you ‘allowed’ them here.
True, when we were weak in the past, some Muslims slipped in. Now that we’re strong (because of science, as Churchill knew), we shouldn’t continue to make the same mistakes.
its people like you the whole world should fear.
Nope, just the Muslim part. I’ve got no beef with the rest of the world. Unlike Islam, my worldview doesn’t teach a generalized hatred of those unlike me. It only teaches hatred of that which is hateful. Like Islam is.
Oct 19, 2007 - 4:52 am Clinton:Here-to-stay: “just because we wish people to experience islam (just as anyone would want what they perceive as beneficial and good to be shared with others) it doesn’t mean we want to establish shari’a in copenhagen”
You could show us islam from your own countries !!! - you know, all around the world people are so impressed of the wonderful muslim societies of the middle east, iran and so on. It is so obvious that islam is beneficial and good for any country. Or perhaps not. Maybe there is a reason why so many people leave the backward islamic world - maybe islam is the real problem.
If there is anything good and beneficial about islam, then why isn’t there one single decent muslim-dominant country in the world ?
Whereas freedom, wealth and science are the products of other non-muslim cultures throughout the world.
You are one silly fool…
Oct 21, 2007 - 7:40 pm Mr. Zug:The point I want to make to those reading this comment who are undecided or unclear about the threat posed by islam to Western society is simply this:
Look throughout the world. Where is war and violent conflict? What is the common demoninator in most war and violent conflict? The answer is islam.
Muslims against Buddhists. Muslims against Hindus. Muslims against Jews. Muslims against Christians. Yes, even muslims against muslims.
Morton Doodslag responded well to the muslim writer “here to stay”. Perhaps “here to stay” can explain to this infidel why it is that so many muslims wish to get out of mulsim majoirty countries to come to the West, whereas there are no Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, and Christians wanting to go to live in muslim majority countries?
You want to experience discrimination or oppression? Be a Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or Christian in a muslim majority country who refuses to pay the “protection tax” or to act subservient to any muslim. It’ll get you imprisoned. Or killed.
Oct 22, 2007 - 3:20 pm