100 Comments

1. Richard Wells:

I would hope to G-d this isn’t true, but if you come up with any corroborating evidence/documentation please post. Oh, Lord, this world…this world…

Feb 3, 2009 - 9:50 pm 2. Anthony (Los Angeles):

Disgusting. But when I insist that what we are fighting is evil, some people just roll their eyes.

It ought to disgust everyone, but it should be especially repulsive to Muslims,….

And yet misogyny runs rampant through the Qur’an and the hadith and lives on today wherever sharia law is enforced. Women are treated little better than chattels; while what this hideous woman did was grotesque and appalling, it’s not surprising.

Feb 3, 2009 - 11:34 pm 3. Howard Richman:

Michael,

I wish more American women knew about this. I’m going to show this to my wife. Better yet, I’m going to make a copy of this and pass it out to the demonstrators the next time I see a “peace now” type demonstration!

On a lighter note, did you realize that America’s premier economic analyst, Nouriel Roubini, has caught on to something I first read on your blog: The fact that the Chinese government fudges economic statistics. I have a piece about it on my blog this morning. It’s called, “China is in a recession and the IMF is in a dreamworld.”

Howard Richman
http://www.tradeandtaxes.blogspot.com

Feb 3, 2009 - 11:47 pm 4. Instapundit » Blog Archive » WHO ARE the suicide bombers?…:

[...] WHO ARE the suicide bombers? [...]

Feb 4, 2009 - 7:46 am 5. sam:

But wait… I thought fighting them only made them more likely to become martyrs? How could they have to go to such extremes to get recruits if by simply having Americans show up aggravates them(not to mention carpet bombing civilians or whatever war crime of the day we supposedly do)?

Feb 4, 2009 - 7:54 am 6. mhw:

I think that virtually all Muslims who read this will assume that the story is either made up by some hindu/jewish/crusader conspiracy or say, well, maybe a few but the crimes of the hindu/jewish/crusader group are much worse and this is a distraction.

Feb 4, 2009 - 7:56 am 7. A.W.:

This is actually not a new phenomenon. Dershowitz’s book on Isreal mentions this practice.

Between how many suicide bombers are mentally retarded, underage (as young as 8), and raped women like this, you have to wonder just how many people are truly willing volunteers capabale of understanding their decision.

And by “retarded” i don’t merely that they are stupid enough to buy into this 72 virgins crud.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:13 am 8. dave742:

Most suicide bombers are more educated and more affluent than the surrounding population. Most suicide bombers are secular. This girl was a Christian communist:

ssnp.com/new/gallery/shohadaa/Sana_01.jpg

I dount if there was a thread about her on this site.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:18 am 9. HEWLESS:

All of the appeasement Karen Hughes wasted plus our tax monies. These people should be scared straight.

Pictures of them in hell might convince them it is not a good idea. These people have limited intelligence it should be easy to scare them.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:22 am 10. LynnS:

Please, please people calm down. This is a custom of another part of the world, practicing a faith forced upon them by the sword, who have been indoctrinated by threat of torture and death from birth. They have different values than the decadent west, and as such, you should respect their ways. When will you westerners stop looking down your noses at other civilizatons and celebrate what makes us unique.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:35 am 11. Eowyn2:

I have suspected this was happening in Palistine for the last few years. When the sharp increase in female homicide bombers started were blown up at checkpoints. Given the options of being stoned to death or being blown up, I think I would chose the blowing up. AND I’m guaranteed heaven. what more could a woman want.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:36 am 12. A.W.:

Dave742

Most sucide bombers are secular? Are you kidding?

But you are touching on a point. The hijackers on 9-11 were typically affluent and well-educated. they aren’t all stupid. i mean besides the basic stupidity required.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:37 am 13. JFP:

It should be especially repulsive to feminists. But I long ago gave up expecting any outrage from them about the treatment of women in the Muslim world. They are nothing but useful idiots.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:42 am 14. Ben Franklin:

It is not clear at all that Mohammed would disapprove of such actions. He took slaves and raped and pillaged all in the name of Allah and he encouraged his followers to do the same. In fact I would say that this sort of thing is par for the course for Islam and we should stop pretending otherwise. If there are Mulsims who find this behavior offensive then that is based merely on their own morality and not the teachings of their prophet.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:42 am 15. dave742:

AW:
“Most sucide bombers are secular? Are you kidding?”

No, I am not kidding. This may be hard to believe if your image of the world is shaped by the US media and sites such as PM, but it is true.
Robert Pape of the University of Chicago ran a study that analyzed every suicide bombing from 1980 to 2003. The study was conducted by the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism, funded in part by the Pentagon Defense Threat Reduction Agency. The intial results were published in a paper in the American Political Science Review, and the complete results in a book called “Dying to Win”. Pape studied 461 suicide attacks overall, which is every suicide attack from 1980 to 2003. He ascertained the religious or ideological affiliation of 384 of them:

“Of the 384 attackers for whom we have data, 166, or 43%, were religious, while 218, or 57%, were secular.”

57% = most

These results were mirrored by work published in a book called “Making Sense of Suicide Missions”, edited by Deigo Gambetta, who found that “contrary to a widespread belief, the majority of [suicide missions] have been carried out by secular rather than religious organizations.”

The most prolific suicide bombers are the LTTE. They are not Muslim.

Let’s look at suicide bombing in Lebanon. Pape’s database contains data on 41 attackers. From the book:
“…at least 30 of the 41 attackers do not fit the description of Islamic fundamentalism. 27 were communists or socialists with no commitment to religious extremism; three were Christians. Only 8 suicide attackers were affiliated with Islamic fundamentalism; the ideological affiliation of 3 cannot be identified.”

I showed you a picture above of one of the communist suicide bombers.

Of course, your first reaction is probably that Pape is a lying anti-Semite. Ariel Merari is head of the Center for Political Science at Tel Aviv University. He has a chapter in the book “Origins of Terrorism:Psychology, Ideologies, Theologies, States of Mind”, edited by Walter Reich and Walter Lacquer. He counts suicide bombing in Lebanon by incidents, and not individuals. Going by incidents, he finds that 7 out of 31 suicide bombings in Lebanon were committed by religious fundamentalists. The book is searchable on Amazon. The info is on page 204. Simply search “204”, and go to that page.

Most suicide bombers are secular. Weird, huh. You wouldn’t get that impression coming to sites like these.

Feb 4, 2009 - 8:51 am 16. dave742:

AW:
From Merari’s chapter I referred to above:

“In most cases the perpetrators sacrificed themselves in the name of a nationalistic rather than a religious idea…” page 205

Merari must be one of those self-hating Jews.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:01 am 17. TomB:

That wizzing sound you all just heard was the point of the article whistling past Dave742’s head.

If you reread the article, it is specifically about how many of the suicide bombers we have been dealing with aren’t outraged muslim fundamentalists, who we just incite to even further violence by being there, but drug-addled, mentally retarded, or otherwise ones forced into the deed.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:04 am 18. k:

Huh . . . I thought the suicide bombers were all about be ‘real men’, Guess they are so strong and manly that they had to hide behind the skirts of women to get the job done. Disgusting and cowardly. Those poor girls, raped, and then forced by ‘culture’ to kill themselves and other as the only way to redeem themselves. They didn’t do anything wrong to begin with, they were victims too. Someone ought to hang that “Mother of Believers”, no real woman would do that to another woman no matter what. Disgusting. . .

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:05 am 19. dave742:

AW:
My Gambetta quote is on page viii. It is also searchable on Amazon.

“More than half of the total world missions, even if one excludes the anarchists and the Kamikaze and counts only from 1981 to Septamber 2003, were carried out by secular groups.” p.261

BTW, do you know what group is responsible for the first recorded suicide attack in history? The Zealots, who were Jewish. Next time you call Hamas religious zealots, now you know where the word came from.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:08 am 20. dave742:

AW:
“i mean besides the basic stupidity required.”

Was the guy who killed himself by running his plane into the alien spaceship at the end of the movie “Independence Day” stupid?

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:12 am 21. JFP:

Yes, dave742, I remember that study. It is a perfect example of the utter irrelevance and complete stupidity of academia today since most of the secular terrorists they talked about were Sri Lankans attacking each other and not us. Apparently, we are then supposed to conclude that people who attack us must be secular rather than religious, despite many statements the terrorists and their supporters have made to the contrary.

Moreover, the example of Lebanon doesn’t mean much, does it? The would-be terrorists have actual armies that can fight for them, so why bother with suicide bombers? They were only necessary when our own army was there.

Keep in mind, dave742, we are now engaged in our era’s fight against fascism. You can join the fight, or you can make irrelevant that serve to sap our will. The choice is yours.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:15 am 22. Ricardo:

Well blow me down dave 742, I guess now we really can forget about that red herring, all those muslim radicals recruiting and funding terrorists and focus on the real problem- It’s all those CHRISTIANS and COMMUNISTS! Whoda thunk it?
I’m dying to hear the update figures from 2003 to know, I bet those LTTE’s are burning up the scene. BTW, what is LTTE?

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:15 am 23. ronnie dobbs:

Dave742: what does “moral equivalence” mean?

Figured you’d probably know, being the smartest guy in the room and all. Must be a terrible burden on you, knowing that.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:40 am 24. ronnie dobbs:

Oh, and Dave742 – I think the guy who killed himself running his plane into an alien spaceship at the end of the movie “Independence Day” wasn’t stupid. He was an actor. And, furthermore, I’ll bet all that actually didn’t happen. I think I read somewhere about movies not really being real or something. But I could be wrong.

Have you heard of that, Great One?

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:43 am 25. bdog57:

dave472,

Apparently the title of this article wasn’t descriptive enough for you. How about this: “Who are the Suicide Bombers [in Iraq]?

You’ll have to pardon us insular Americans who are wrapped up in the notion of victory (in Iraq). American blood and treasure just happen to be expended there and the media drumbeat for defeat is still echoing in our ears. So, we might be less inclined to pay attention to, say, a Sri Lankan separatist group (LTTE) or to some Syrian useful idiots in Lebanon.

This article is an illustration of the desperate measures being employed by the last few anarchist/terrorist holdouts in Iraq. Given the old saying “desperate times call for desperate measures”, you can assume that things aren’t going well for them. Alternatively, you could note the fact that the dog didn’t bark; i.e., the media has ceased daily reportage from Iraq. Not enough “bleed” for the lede.

Now for a taste of the obtuse; i.e., employing your own rhetorical devices against you while ignoring the larger point:

“Was the guy who killed himself by running his plane into the alien spaceship at the end of the movie ‘Independence Day’ stupid?”

We’re talking about Randy Quaid, right? Do you really have to ask? Didn’t you ever see “Vegas Vacation” or “Kingpin”?

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:48 am 26. Vivictius:

Yes dave, the tamil tigers have a real tendency to blow them selves up but as you know, those are not the suicide bombers anyone (other then you) is talking about here. They have restricted their actions to Sri Lanka so, in general, Americans dont really care about them.

You are obviously trying to confuse the subject and defend the muslim terrorists.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:52 am 27. Sidney Raphael:

I’m sure this oppression of women will end as soon as NOW and the Western feminist elite organizes a response. Any minute now. Soon.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:55 am 28. Paul -Indiana:

#14. Dave, that was a movie. Believe it or not, homocide bombers are REAL!!!

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:56 am 29. Geoff:

I think most Americans are more concerned about suicide attacks specifically in Muslim countries since 9/11/2001. We are also concerned about the suicide attacks that threaten our interests by threatening our own people or our allies. In that context, the suicide attacks against Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel, and American forces and interests in the Middle East appear to be predominately Islamic jihad attacks. Certainly the organizers and perpetrators of the attacks have claimed that they are Islamic jihad martyrdom operations.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:57 am 30. Jay Manifold:

dave742, thanks for helping establish that communism and nationalism are even worse than Islamic fundamentalism. Looks like there will still be work to do after we transform Islam into a religion of peace (the way we transformed Germany and Japan into peaceful countries).

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:03 am 31. dave742:

Paul-Indiana:
Yes, I understand the difference between a movie and reality. Movies, however, deal with human emotions and reflect situations that humans can identify with. That is why they exist.
So was the suicide attacker at the end of “Independence Day” stupid? Was his action justified? Did he kill himself based on his religion? Did you think of him as a hero when you saw it?

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:07 am 32. Rich Casebolt:

Dave, true “freedom fighters” don’t target the innocent, let alone their own people … let alone facilitate sexual abuse and exploit shame to recruit their own for suicide missions.

There’s a big difference between that, and falling on a grenade or taking fire to save your buddies … or the world.

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:12 am 33. sa:

“BTW, do you know what group is responsible for the first recorded suicide attack in history? The Zealots, who were Jewish.BTW, do you know what group is responsible for the first recorded suicide attack in history? The Zealots, who were Jewish. Next time you call Hamas religious zealots, now you know where the word came from.”

they were not responsible for suicide attacks. the word zealots does not come from these rebels either. Question: Are you just confused or are you making things up?

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:13 am 34. Joe:

dave742, you’re changing the subject. The topic here is specifically Muslim suicide bombers, not suicide bombers in general. The women in question was manipulating women using their religiosity–specifically, she would have the girls raped and then convince them that martyrdom was the only route to salvation. (She was using techniques common to cults of all varieties.)

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:14 am 35. LynnS:

dave742: Did he target civilians? Were his loved ones happy to see him die? Was his family rewarded for his killing civilians? Was he lied to? Did he grow up watching state sponsored television shows and reading state approved text books, and state restricted press about the enemy, or did he see for himself and hear for himself and make a judgement for himself?

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:16 am 36. Rob Crawford:

Dave, things happen in movies because the scriptwriters (and directors, and producers, and focus groups) think it’s a good idea.

Otherwise, what does your comment have to do with the original post? Apparently a number of suicide bombers were “motivated” to attack by being raped and then being told the only way to erase their “shame” was to murder other people. How does the reported motivation of others change that?

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:23 am 37. Fresh Air:

dave472–

What percentage of suicide attacks since 2003 are by Muslim lunatics?

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:30 am 38. jason:

100% of the 9/11 terrorists were not secular. Dave742 is mixing apples and oranges by involving other conflicts such as the Lebanon civil war, when the discussion is obviously suicide bombings against Israel or Jews or Westerners in general carried out by Muslim extremists. If the question is what percentage of Muslim extremist suicide bombers are secular you will find the number is very small. Today there is an article about a female terrorist in Iraq was having women raped so their shame (and Muslim beliefs) were turn them into suicide bombers. Dave742 is typically trying to fit statistics to his viewpoint by engaging in obfuscation and deception. Beware of phrases such as “of the 384 cases where we have data”, which might be very far from the truth that “all data” would reveal.

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:41 am 39. dave742:

sa:
“the word zealots does not come from these rebels either” -sa

There are earlier Greek and Latin roots, but the word as it is commonly used, in terms of a “religious zealot,” has its origins in the Jewish group, which is why the group is the number one definition:

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Zealot

“[Zealots] were not responsible for suicide attacks” -sa

A suicide attack includes one where there is no chance of escape and the punishment is known to be execution.

The definitive book on the Zealots was written by Martin Hengel. In the book, he details the attempted assassination of Herod, and points out that it was a suicide attack:

“They were even joined by a blind man, who took part in order to encourage other by his readiness to suffer, presumably because, from the very beginning, they all anticipated that they would die.” –p.258

Hengel also says that the attack “…displays all the outstanding features of a typical example of martyrdom…”, including “…the theme of the defense of the law, which can call for the sacrifice of one’s life…”, along with “…an open confession…in which the law is once again the central feature. He also notes “…the absence of any fear of death…”, with the event ending with “…the cruel punishment of the conspirators”.

Josephus Flavius’ account of the Zealots after they were apprehended:

“They showed no repentance and did not deny the act. On the contrary, they openly displayed their daggers and freely confessed that the conspiracy was justified and had taken place because of their fear of God… [and for] the sake of communal customs…[for] which one is prepared to give up one’s life…”.

From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

“Herod was informed of the conspiracy in time, and so escaped, while the conspirators suffered death with great torture, but GLORIED IN THEIR MARTYRDOM. The people sympathized with them, and in their wrath tore to pieces the spy who had discovered the plot…In the speech attributed to [Eleazar ben Jair], he declares that it is a glorious privilege to die for the principle that none but God is the true Ruler of mankind, and that rather than yield to Rome, which is slavery, men should slay their wives and children and themselves, since their souls will live forever…This is certainly not the language and conduct of the leader of a band of ‘robbers,’ as Josephus persists in calling this party. In their opposition to Rome the Zealots were clearly inspired by religious motives…As stated by Josephus…they boastfully called themselves by the name of ‘Ḳanna’im’ (Zealots) on account of their religious zeal. The right of the Ḳanna’im to assassinate any non-Jew who dared to enter the consecrated parts of the Temple was officially recognized in a statute inscribed upon the Temple wall and discovered by Clermont-Ganneau in 1871…”

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=49&letter=Z&search=zealot

The Zealots were not only the first suicide attackers, they were the first terrorist group. In case you don’t believe that statement:

“…the actual practice [of terrorism] can be traced to the Sicarii religious sect activities during the Zealot struggles in Palestine during the period 66-73 A.D.”

LCDR Steven Mack Presley, MSC, USN
“Rise of Domestic Terrorism and Its Relation to United States Armed Forces”

fas.org/irp/eprint/presley.htm

“Waves of terrorism have been documented in the first century CE with the Sicarii, Jewish Zealot groups involved in assassinations and poisonings of Romans occupying Palestine…”

Albert J. Bergesen and Yi Han
“New Directions for Terrorism Research”
cos.sagepub.com/cgi/reprint/46/1-2/133.pdf

“[The] tactic [of terrorism] is not new. Beginning in 48 A.D., a Jewish sect called the Zealots carried out terrorist campaigns to force insurrection against the Romans in Judea. These campaigns included the use of assassins (sicarii, or dagger-men), who would infiltrate Roman controlled cities and stab Jewish collaborators or Roman legionnaires with a sica (dagger), kidnap members of the Staff of the Temple Guard to hold for ransom, or use poison on a large scale. The Zealots’ justification for their killing of other Jews was that these killings demonstrated the consequences of the immorality of collaborating with the Roman invaders, and that the Romans could not protect their Jewish collaborators.”

Rex A. Hudson
“The Sociology and Psychology of Terrorism: Who Becomes a Terrorist and Why?”
iwaynet.net/~tzeropublishing/specials/spot.pdf

“Examples [of terrorism] are the attacks mounted by the Jewish religious extremists known as Zealot Sicarii against the Romans in occupied Judea…”
Asep Chaerudin
“Countering Transnational Terrorism in Southeast Asia with Respect to Terrorism in Indonesia and the Philippines”
ccc.nps.navy.mil/research/theses/Chaerudin03.pdf

“As a matter of fact their terrorist acts were directed especially against the leaders of Judea…[Sicarii] considered the Zealots traitors in that they accepted a mortal the head of state.”
“The Sicarri were fanatics, endeavoring by the use of terror to force their ideas on their fellow Judaeans.”
Solomon Zeitlin, “The Sicarii and Masada” Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol 57 (4), April 1967, p.251-270.

“…the Sicarii can be best understood as ancient Jewish ‘terrorists’.”
“The terrorist tactics of Sicarii were threefold, according to Josephus’s reports: selective, symbolic assassinations; more general assassinations along with destruction or plundering of the property of the wealthy and powerful; and kidnapping.”
Horsley translated Josephus as saying that “…Judas and Zadok proclaimed that by carrying out the eschatological will of God thay would participate in bringing about the final Kingdom of God…”, and, “…if apprehended, tortured, and killed before the final realization of the Kindgom, they would become glorious martyrs to the purposes of God.”
“Their goal was the eventual liberation of the Jewish people from the illegitimate rule of Rome, and they understood their own actions as consonant with the eschatological will of God, their only true ruler.”
Richard A. Horsley, “The Sicarii: Ancient Jewish ‘Terrorists’” The Journal of Religion. Vol 59 (4), Oct. 1979, p.435-458.

“The ultimate cause of all three suicidal wars is in the end undoubtedly to be found in the Jewish religion, which was unique in the ancient world with its theocratic ideal and its especially pronounced eschatological expectation around the turn of the millennium.” p. xiv
“The power of fanatical Islamic fundamentalism that is so frightening for enlightened Europeans and Americans today may well serve as an example to enable us to understand the feelings that the Greeks and Romans experienced when confronted with the furor Iudaicus.” p. xiv
“Zeal called for a total surrender to God’s will and a passionate commitment, going as far as a readiness to offer one’s own life, to the cause of God’s honour…” (leading to martyrdom) p.224
“In every case of serious threat to Israel’s sacred blessings, either from within Israel or from the outside, the use of violence became a sacred duty..” (leads to Holy War) p.225
“The teaching of the Zealots…was not a form of legal casuistry or metaphysical speculation, but a militant doctrine of action as the expression of zealous confession.” p.227
“[The Zealots] wanted to restore validity to the Torah in its original and unadulterated sense here and now at the end of time…” p.228 (fundamentalism)
“The insistence of the ‘sole rule of God’ that was so closely associated with the revolt against Roman rule was for the Zealots the first step towards bringing about the Kingdom of God…” p.228
Josephus “…[reveals] quite clearly the very important place that martyrdom had for the Zealots…” p. 259 (see Ant. 18,23f)
“In Josephus’ account [an essential point was] their steadfastness was not based on some kind of political fanaticism. It was rather deeply religious in its origin and based on an absolute determination to keep to the ‘sole rule of God’, which for them formed the centre of law” p.261
In the mass suicide at Masada, Hengel recounts Eleazar’s speech which “…[declared] that death gives the soul eternal freedom and that the soul leaves the body and gains immortality.” p.264
“Like Zeal for the law – with which readiness to die as a martyr was very closely connected – the sacrifice of one’s own life for the law and the people was a sign of religious devotion, which concerned not only the Zealots, but all strictly believing Jews. The origins of this attitude can be traced back to the Maccabean period, since which time the chain of martyrs continued unbroken.” p. 265
“[The Zealots]…eschatological interpretation enabled [them] to understand martyrdom as the quickest and most certain way to share in the joys of the messianic kingdom.” p. 271
“…the Zealots tried…to provide their struggle against the Roman oppressors with a religious and eschatological basis by means of the idea of the ‘Holy War’.” p.282
“The Zealots provisional aim in their struggle was to urge the majority of the Jewish people to take part in the ‘Holy War’.” p.282
“…the struggle against the Romans was conceived in eschatological terms and…it was hoped that an uprising on the part of the whole people would lead, with Gods help, to the definitive annihilation of the opponent and the establishment of the messianic kingdom.” p.287
“The fundamental attitude that was required in view of the imminence of the time of salvation was zeal, in other words, a readiness to commit oneself unconditionally to the honour of God. Even the use of violence was justified to achieve this end. This zeal formed the basis of the Zealots’ readiness to accept martyrdom and their decision to give up all possessions and security and withdraw into the desert. They used it to wage the Holy War and it enabled them to hope that they would receive a heavenly reward if they fell in battle” p. 312
Martin Hengel, “The Zealots : Investigations into the Jewish Freedom Movement in the Period from Herod I until 70 A.D.”

The Sicarii “…deserve more the label of ‘terrorist’ than ‘guerrilla’.”
Thomas H. Greene “Comparative Revolutionary Movements”, 1974, p.87

“The Jewish religion is a religion of martyrdom. It was born of martyrdom and the suffering of pious Jews during the period of the Maccabees.”
W. Bousset “Die Religion des Judentums im Spathellenistischen Zeitalter”, 3rd ed, edited by H. Gressman, Tubingen (1926)(Quoted in Hengel)

“[The Zealots] were inspired by messianic hopes to seek maximum publicity. [They] interpreted important events in the founding period of their religion as precedents for their tactics and to mean also that those who died in this struggle secured their places in paradise.
Rapoport:
international.ucla.edu/cms/files/fear-trembling.pdf

“Terrorism has a voluntaristic nature. It is the weapon of the weak in a
situation, where structural conditions or power relations give them little hope
for direct success. As the weapon of the weak it has a long historical tradition.
2000 years ago the Jewish Sicarians and Zealots used it against the Romans
and against their own moderate elites who collaborated with the occupier.
They relied on a strategy which is now seen as typical of terrorism: The
terrorists expect success by using the strength of the opponent. Through their
violent actions they try to provoke an overreaction, some sort of brutal repression
which will then stimulate a broader revolt, a revolt that the terrorists
could never have stimulated directly. In the case of the Zealots and the Romans,
it worked out as planned by the Zealots. The Romans answered their
attacks with bloody repression, and the Jewish people, as a reaction to this
repression, went to war against the Romans. At the end of that war, in the year
70, the Romans destroyed the Temple and turned the Jewish state, hitherto
under indirect rule, into a province of the Roman Empire.”
Crime, Law & Social Change 39: 339–357, 2003.
© 2003 Kluwer Academic Publishers. Printed in the Netherlands.
339
“Like Zealots and Romans: Terrorism and Empire in the 21st
Century”
HENNER HESS
Johann Wolfgang Goethe University, Frankfurt, Germany

“Suicide attack is an ancient practice with a modern history. Its use by the Jewish sects of Zealots and Sicarii (“daggers”) in Roman-occupied Judea [1] and by the Islamic Order of Assassins (hashashin) during the early Crusader times are legendary examples.”
interdisciplines.org/terrorism/papers/1/version/original

“Are you just confused or are you making things up?”
Neither.

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:45 am 40. dave742:

Rob Crawford:
“what does your comment have to do with the original post?”

Someone brought up that suicide bombers are “retarded”. I brought up the fact that this is untrue, and much has frlowed from that.
In a thread that addresses the motivations of suicide bombers, I think it is quite appropriate to talk about what motivates suicide bombers in general. This is on topic. It is much more on topic that saying “the Chinese government fudges economic statistics,” but you didn’t seem to have a problem with that statement.

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:50 am 41. moral relitivist:

“Who are we to judge her actions. We are the real terrorists who put her in that position. Poverty and despair – brought on by capitalism and Western decadence – is what drove her to this. After all, Islam is a religion of peace. This is resistance, not terror. After all, what choice do they have?”

WAKE UP. THE ACTS ARE WRONG, REGARDLESS OF THE CULTURE OR SITUATION. WE ARE MORALLY OBLIGATED TO CONDEMN THIS

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:56 am 42. ERF:

Dave142,
What do you think is the motivation of an Iraqi suicide bomber to blow himself up in a crowded Iraqi market?

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:58 am 43. Mike_K:

You’ve convinced me that suicide attacks were happening before Islam. Now, what about the topic ? The unusual thing about Islam is the religious motivation for death while killing infidels; martyrdom. The martyr gets 72 virgins (or white raisins depending on the translation). All the other major religions revere life. All but Islam.

Feb 4, 2009 - 10:59 am 44. Susan:

I would be interested in the evidence that Ansar al-Sunnah is Iranian-funded (or trained) since I have heard that they are Saudi Arabian funded and trained.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:04 am 45. ErikZ:

“So was the suicide attacker at the end of “Independence Day” stupid? Was his action justified? Did he kill himself based on his religion? Did you think of him as a hero when you saw it?”

Lets compare and contrast then:
Independence day: The enemy’s goal was to wipe out all human life, and then remove all natural resources on the planet leaving it a barren inhospitable rock incapable of sustaining life.

Suicide “Bomber” Saved his family, which were going to die within the next minute, by flying his aircraft into the teeth of the superweapon.
Result: This is now a known weak point. Even if the shields are up, firing a missle at that point will bring the ship down. No innocents were taken with him. No more suicide attacks committed.

Real life: The “enemy”, the US, buys oil from middle eastern countries and sells them stuff. If the US didn’t exist then…they wouldn’t.

Suicide Bombers: Destroyed the US world trade center. Where they traded stuff.
End result: Killing innocents passengers on the plane, and in the world trade center. Trade moved to other world trade centers. Billions of dollars lost to the world from the disruption in trade.

I’m amazed I had to spell this out for you. I never would have thought that the differences between the two situations were that subtle. The Suicide Bombers that attack western countries are not only stupid, but are so worthless in life that the only thing of value they can contribute to the world is to mimic a disposable, 1-shot weapon.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:05 am 46. dave742:

Mike K:
“what about the topic ? The unusual thing about Islam is the religious motivation for death while killing infidels; martyrdom.”

First of all, I showed quite clearly that Judaism has the capacity to motivate people in the same way as Islam does. All religions do. But it is not just religions that motivates suicide bombers and other “terrosits”. Even communists and atheists are suicide bombers and “terrorists”. So what is the common thread?? Answer:

OCCUPATION!

In Pape’s book, he showed very clearly that there is no correlation between suicide bombing and Islam, which is not surprising considering that most suicide bombers are secular. He did, however, find a correlation between suicide bombing and occupation. This correlation is so strong its p value is less than .001, which is far beyond the common bechmark of .05 used for social psychology, and more in line with that of medical studies. If you believe there is a correlation between smoking cigarrettes and cancer, then you can believe their is a correlation between suicide bombing and occupation.

Why did the Zealots resort to terrorism and suicide attacks? They were being occupied by Rome!

Why did Hezbollah and communists resort to suicide bombing and “terrorism”? They were being occupied! What happened when Israel withdrew from Lebanon? The suicide bombing stopped!

Suicide bombing was unknown in both Iraq and Afghanistan before the US occupation of those countries. Now suicide bombing is quite popular in those countries.

The LTTE is the most prolific suicide bombing group in modern history. The are Hindu/secular. They are occupied. See the pattern?

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:10 am 47. inmypajamas:

I guess what dave742 is trying to accomplish in his persistent posting can be boiled down to “See, the Jooooos started it!”

Whether you like or not, dave742, the Islamic terrorists have branded suicide bombing. When you hear “suicide bomber”, your immediate thoughts are of some black-clad jihadi blowing up a group of innocent bystanders. They have made it their own, with their persistent use of it as a martyrdom tool and their religious glorification of it. Radial Islamists have linked suicide bombing irradicably to their vision of establishing the new Islamic world order and all your verbiage will not change that reality one iota.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:23 am 48. Susan:

It just does not make any sense that Iran would fund Sunni extremists….. just no logical sense at all.

I think this claim is flat out wrong.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:25 am 49. Mike_K:

First of all, I showed quite clearly that Judaism has the capacity to motivate people in the same way as Islam does. All religions do

My point, which you seem to be missing, is that the religion itself does not advocate such behavior. Only Islam is the exception, advocating war and killing of unbelievers. Christianity has been used to justify killing of enemies and unbelievers but that was a perversion of the tenets of the religion, not one of its foundation principles. The Old Testament has some advocacy of aggression for the Jews but that, again, was a matter of survival. Judaism does not even advocate conversion of unbelievers.

Suicide attacks when the attacker is in desperate straights have always been present. Colin Kelly was awarded the medal of honor for crashing his B17 into a Japanese battleship early in World War II. One difference was that he got his crew to bail out, then, when it was too late for him to make it, he crashed into the battleship. That is quite a bit different from convincing others to become suicide bombers. The whole killing and suicide thing is part of the religion of Islam. That is unique. Your attempt to justify al Qeaeda is not enough to make your case.

Sorry.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:26 am 50. bour3:

John 742, feeling a little pedantic today are you?

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, the word originates from Jewish martyrs, and all religions have the potential to motivate such behavior, but I don’t hear many stories of Jews or Christians strapping bombs onto themselves and blowing up a bus stop or a restaurant in order to strike a point, or to draw attention to a cause, or to gain access to 72 virgins in a spiritual realm where physical virginity is irrelevant, or to erase shame, which is the point of this post, the point your pedantry evades. Even if the suicide bombers under discussion in this post are secular, they’re still motivated by the ethos of a muslim society that purports to be deeply religious. You’ve been very successful in changing the discussion from the woman who organized rapes of women then recruited those women as suicide bombers to a discussion about the origin of the word zealot but that doesn’t erase newsworthiness of this item.

Suggestion; get your own blog. You have a clear need to show as many people as possible how much you know.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:37 am 51. David W. Lincoln:

Michael, I still like the idea of preparatory regimes that FDR had in mind, and a description of this can be found in “Lost Crusade:America in Vietnam” by Chester L. Cooper.

It is enough for a start to have Nona Darwish, Bat Ye’or, and Wafa Sultan, but it takes familiarity with where they are coming from in the political field to translate the universal truths they communicate in the political field.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:42 am 52. EV:

Dave I believe is making a good point. 1)It is rare to see suicide bomber’s in unoccupied countries. 2)Suicide bombers are not primarily religious. 3) Suicide bombers are not unintelligent. I also do not believe he is justifying Muslim suicide bombers by noting the fact that “Jews did it once too”. Here’s the POINT. Jewish, Christian, and Muslim suicide bombers are in VIOLATION of their respective faiths. If a thief comes into your house, steals your clothes, and then robs a bank, it doesn’t make you complicit in the crime. Religious fanatics operating under the guise of their religions DO NOT REPRESENT the true faith. They are IMPOSTERS. By the same measure, when the police come asking you about the crime, YOU DO NOT CONDONE IT! This is what PM is trying to convey in this article. What these fanatics are doing to these women in order to convince them to become suicide bombers is disgusting. There needs to be a great outcry from the Muslim community. Hypocrisy cannot be tolerated in any faith. It undermines and discredits what you believe in. Would these suicide bombings stop if these countries weren’t occupied? Probably. The unique problem here is the autonomous state of Israel in the Middle East and the stated mission of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran of the destruction of Israel as a state.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:43 am 53. dave742:

Mike K:
Muslims commit suicide bombings because people are occupying their countries. It is not because of religion. If Jews were given their country in Argentina instead of Palestine, Palestinians would not be taking boats across the Atlantic in order to blow themselves up in suicide attacks against Jews in Argentina. Instead, Argentinians would be committing suicide attacks against the Jews, and you would be wondering why Argentinians are so anti-Semitic.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:45 am 54. Mike_K:

That is a nonsensical answer. I will grant you that suicide attacks are a response by a weak opponent but only Islam supports the concept of suicide and killing as a basic tenet of the religion. Yes people may go down fighting rather than surrender. The Japanese adopted suicide tactics because Shintoism and the culture had supported Hari Kari for centuries. I cannot think of another religion that endorses suicide and not even the Shintoists advocated inducing others to commit suicide.

The Argentines welcomed hundreds of thousands of Jews including 80,000 following the Russian pogroms of the 1880s. You need to work on your history. The Jewish Temple was in Jerusalem before Muhammed was an itch in his father’s pants.

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:55 am 55. TomB:

dave742: “Muslims commit suicide bombings because people are occupying their countries.”

So what explains suicide bombings conducted by Sunnis against Shi‘a in Iraq?

Feb 4, 2009 - 11:57 am 56. Sofasleeper:

Dave,

I note that we occupied both Germany and Japan for several years following the Second World War. I know of no suicide bombings in either case. On the other hand, behavior resembling suicide bombing was quite common among Japanese aoldiers, sailors, and airman prior to the Japanese defeat, and that these attacks were launched from territory the *Japanese* had occupied, such as the Philippines.

The French Maquis did not, so far as I know, engage in suicide bombing as a result of the German occupation. They were content with ordinary homicide bombing.

Russia occupied eastern Europe for decades. I know of no suicide bombings in Russia-occupied eastern Europe.

There are numerous counterexamples suggesting that occupation is neither necessary nor sufficient to promote a wave of suicide bombings.

I’m curious. Under what conditions do you believe suicide bombing would be morally justified?

Feb 4, 2009 - 12:01 pm 57. dave742:

“only Islam supports the concept of suicide and killing as a basic tenet of the religion.”
This is untrue. When Hezbollah started their suicide bombings, they had to twist the hell out of Islam in order to justify it, and many did not agree. It is not inherent in the religion. I do not want to get into it. It is off topic and is too large a subject.

Welcoming Jews into a country and allowing them to work in order to make a living is different than forcefully taking land and property. Instead of Argentina, let’s say Jews were given the county you live in, and they violently threw you out of your home, killing your wife in the process. In that situation, would you be a terrorist or suicide bomber if you had no other way to fight? I sure would.

Feb 4, 2009 - 12:03 pm 58. marty:

dave742:
It might be helpful if you could define “occupation”.
The places you mentioned(Lebanon, Palestine) were invaded by the Muslim Arabs around 630-660ad, weren’t they?
Why shouldn’t I consider them to be “occupiers”?
It’s confusing to me. The Jewish people lived in the area called Palestine for thousands of years, and now they are the “occupiers”?
I don’t get it.
sincerely,
marty

Feb 4, 2009 - 12:16 pm 59. Whitney:

It’s interesting that you use Argentina for your example. It’s a well known fact that Iran was behind the terrorist bombings of the Jewish cultural center and the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires. I guess you could say that Iranian agents did indeed cross the Atlantic to kill Jews, but was that because Israel still existed or simply because they were Jews? A better question might be, why should Persians care if some Arab land 600 miles away is being “occupied” by Jews?

Feb 4, 2009 - 12:19 pm 60. dave742:

And why is my Argentina analogy nonsensical? If it was a basic tenant for Muslim to kill Jews, why wouldn’t they cross the Atlantic to do so? Does Islam say to kill Jews only if it is convenient? Muslim kill Jews because they took their land. Hamas has even said they would react the same way if Muslim had taken their land. It’s the occupation.

Feb 4, 2009 - 12:20 pm 61. Joe Y:

Actually, Muslim terrorists did go to Argentina, several times, to engage in terrorist attacks against the Jews in the 1980’s. The Jews of Argentina must have stolen their Buenos Aires JCC from Iranian Muslims.

Dave 742, you nailed it in your last post: “Muslim kill Jews because they took their land.” The Jews do not kill the Muslims for stealing their lands, nor do the Christians, nor do the Buddhists; you make peace with it and move on. If you’re a Muslim, you fly halfway around the world and go kill some Jews in Argentina, because who knows when they’ll show up.

Maybe it’s time for Israel to nuke all the major Arab countries to see if they can get their land back. In fact, they should start with Mecca-as Mohammed makes clear, he stole a big chunk of it from Jews, murdered most of them, and enslaved the rest. Then Greece can ask NATO to throw out Turkey and then nuke them too: Remember Byzantium!

I’m only agreeing with you, dave742. As Fred N himself said, you can’t argue with a disease.

Feb 4, 2009 - 1:09 pm 62. rvastar:

Hamas has even said they would react the same way if Muslim had taken their land. It’s the occupation.

That’s funny…then where was Hamas while Egypt “occupied” Gaza from 1948 to 1967?

As a matter of fact, where were all the “Palestinians” who were fighting that “occupation” by a foreign power?

And where were all the “Palestinians” who were fighting the Jordanian “occupation” of the West Bank during the same time period?

Feb 4, 2009 - 1:10 pm 63. ERF:

Dave 742,
You state that the Tamil Tigers are the most prolific suicide bombers on earth as well as the originators of suicide bombing attack strategy. The Tamil Tigers are Hindu. Their ancestors crossed over to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago, as did the first Buddhist Sinhalese people. What occupation are the Tamil Tigers fighting? And why do you say their motivation is not religious?

Feb 4, 2009 - 1:15 pm 64. rvastar:

Is Israel “occupying” Gaza, dave?

Feb 4, 2009 - 1:22 pm 65. rvastar:

So the American occupation of Iraq justifies Muslim fanatics arranging for the rapes of 80 women so that they can be shamed into becoming suicide bombers?

Is that the gist of your argument, dave?

Feb 4, 2009 - 1:25 pm 66. rvastar:

I’ve got a question, dave.

Since when is the US occupying Iran? And since when is Israel occupying Iran?

Oh…they’re not occupying Iran, you say?

Well, I’m a bit confused then. If neither the US nor Israel are occupying Iran, then why are the Iranians providing support to terrorist groups in Iraq? And Lebanon? And Gaza?

Hmmmm…I wonder what the common denominator is?

Feb 4, 2009 - 1:31 pm 67. John F. MacMichael:

#28. dave742: “And why is my Argentina analogy nonsensical? If it was a basic tenant(sic) for Muslim to kill Jews, why wouldn’t they cross the Atlantic to do so?”

Well, the fact that they have,in fact, done so makes your analogy look rather dubious. Hezebollah bombed the Argentine Jewish Mutual Association in Buenos Aires on July 18, 1994. They killed 85 people and left 300 wounded.

Feb 4, 2009 - 2:01 pm 68. DDave:

So are mentally retarted, sexually abused or little children considered secular or religious suicide bombers?

I would consider a secular suicide bomber that was recruited by a religious organization to be a religious suicide bomber.

Using the idea of the organization behind the suicide bomber would probably move the statistic back to a overwhelming majority religious suicide bomber.

Feb 4, 2009 - 2:30 pm 69. Naif Mabat:

Funny you should mention Argentina.

As a matter of fact, Muslims did cross the Atlantic to kill Jews in Argentina:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_AMIA_bombing

Feb 4, 2009 - 2:47 pm 70. TMLutas:

Suicide bombing data that ends prior to the invasion of Iraq is pretty useless. The much touted study of Robert Pape has 384 data points and goes from 1981-2003. Iraq in 2005 had over 400 suicide bombings. This isn’t Pape’s fault but it is disingenuous to continue to site Pape and not note the clear limitations of his work given the 1200+ suicide bombings that have happened post study in Iraq. The LTTE, which skew the data so heavily in favor of secular motivations during Pape’s study period, seems on its last legs and is probably not as active as in past years.

Feb 4, 2009 - 3:26 pm 71. Michael Ledeen:

Susan: thanks for your question. Ansar al Sunnah came out of Ansar al Islam, an Iranian creation in Iraqi Kurdestan around the time of the invasion. There’s a pretty good discussion here: http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/057937.php If you go to the bottom you’ll see that the Iraqi Govt linked it to Iran and Syria (redundant, you might say). And there’s lots more.

On the religious/secular issue, I agree with most comments. There seems to me to be very little in the way of “secular suicide terrorism” in the Middle East, and the Tamil Tigers were Hindu believers as far as I recall. Certainly the jihadis are religious fanatics, and they do most of the recruiting.

As for the question of Sunni/Shi’ite cooperation, it is depressing to see that there are some who still believe the two groups are totally at odds with each other. I’ve tried very hard to provide the evidence of their cooperation. As early as 1972, Arafat’s (Sunni) Fatah was training the people who would become the (Shi’ite) Iranian Revolutionary Guards. And today, al Qaeda gets safe haven, money, weapons, training and intelligence from Iran, where many of them are based. Take a look at Tom Joscelyn’s latest on the Long War Journal, where he cites the Saudis’ list of ‘most wanted.’

Feb 4, 2009 - 3:48 pm 72. Susan:

I went and read the JAWA report and their links to AEI. Then I red about two dozen other sources from a google search – including US government, Australian government and US military reports. None of these connceted Ansar al Sunna to Iran, other than one report that some of the Kurdish members may have been kicked out of Iran.

And they all seem to agree that Ansar al Sunna is mainly composed of Sunni Arabs who want to kick the US out of the country and install an Islamic regime. They are very evil, obviously.

But to say that Iran is supporting a Sunni extremist group that has attacked both main Kurdish parties is not supported by what I read.

Feb 4, 2009 - 4:37 pm 73. GayPatriot » Gay Rape as a Means to Recruit Suicide Bombers:

[...] And it’s not just gay sex, these extremists have a problem with.

Feb 4, 2009 - 4:40 pm 74. Peter:

Susan, have you ever heard that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”? Iran hates Israel. Iran hates the USA. Any outfit that harms Israel or the USA , no matter their religion, is a pal of Iran’s. Kind of like when the various European communinist groups had training camps in Syria and Libya a couple-three decades back.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:26 pm 75. Al Reasin:

Really sick!!! Something to throw up to those who believe all cultures are equal and that one mans terrorist is another’s freedom fighter.

Feb 4, 2009 - 9:46 pm 76. dave742:

Rvastar:
“where was Hamas while Egypt ‘occupied’ Gaza from 1948 to 1967”

As far as I know, Egypt was not killing Palestinians and kicking them off their land and ejecting them from their homes so Egyptians could build settlements there. Same for the Jordanians.

“Is Israel “occupying” Gaza, dave?”

Of course they are.

“Since when is the US occupying Iran?”

Palestinians have the right under international law to resist occupation, and UN member states are “obliged” to assist the Palestinians in doing so. Iran is assisting the Palestinians, and are therefore the only country with international law. Have fun with that one.

ERF:
“What occupation are the Tamil Tigers fighting?”

Occupation by the Sinhalese majority. Regardless of what the history is and whether or not you agree with the Tamil view that their land is occupied, what matters is what the Tamils believe. The same for the Jews. If the Jews believe their land is occupied because of what some stupid book written by “God” says, then their motivation is occupation, regardless of the validity of their motivation.

“And why do you say their motivation is not religious?”

Because they are not a religious organization, even if most members are Hindu. When I was a teenager, I identified myself as a Christian in religious terms, and I was in a band with some people who identified themselves as Christians as well as far as their religion, yet we were not a Christian band. Some LTTE are Christian as well. Not a single conflict database lists the LTTE as a religious group.

John F. MacMichael and Naif Mabat:
“Hezebollah bombed the Argentine Jewish Mutual Association in Buenos Aires on July 18, 1994.”

This is a baseless accusation. And it is off topic.

TMLutas:
“clear limitations of his work”

Iraq is not a limitation in his study. When you find a correlation as strong as Pape found, with a p value less than .001, there is no reason in the world to expect the relationship not to hold. Countless studies have found that smoking causes lung cancer, but maybe no studies have been performed in the last 10 years. Does that mean there is no longer proof that smoking causes lung cancer until more studies are done to take into account new data? I don’t think so. Also, there is much anecdotal evidence to support Pape’s theory in the case of Iraq. Like the fact that suicide bombing was unknown in Iraq prior to the US occupation, even under the evil Saddam, and once the occupation started, suicide bombing started. Is that a coincidence?

Michael Ledeen:
“There seems to me to be very little in the way of “secular suicide terrorism” in the Middle East”

That proves it, then. I will E-mail all the researchers who have found otherwise and tell them to retract their work.

“the Tamil Tigers were Hindu believers as far as I recall”

They are not a religious organization, as they themselves point out:

ttnet.netfast.org/faq/faq04.html

Maybe they are lying. Do Hindus have taqyiyya?

Feb 5, 2009 - 4:39 am 77. dave742:

Rvastar:
“where was Hamas while Egypt ‘occupied’ Gaza from 1948 to 1967”

Remember that Palestinians did not use suicide bombing for the first 27 years of the occupation. It is only when the settlement construction started in full swing that the bombing started. Also, what set off the suicide bombing was the Baruch Goldstein massacre. Once the Israelis started walking into Palestinian mosques and massacring Palestinians did Hamas get fed up and decided to respond.

Feb 5, 2009 - 4:43 am 78. dave742:

EV:
I didn’t see your post until now. I agree that many people misrepresent their faith. As far as supporting suicide bombing or “terrorism” in general, I think there are situations where terrorism is justified. I am not making a direct comparison with any other situation, (please hold the outrage) but do you think Jews would have been justified using terrorism against the Germans in WWII? I do.

Also, you have to use the same rules for both sides. Israel can drop a 2,000 pound bomb on an apartment building if they think there is a Hamas member inside, and that is not terrorism. If Hamas get ahold of a plane and levels a Tel Aviv apartment building because they think there is an IDF soldier inside, would that be terrorism? I think so.

Feb 5, 2009 - 5:18 am 79. Lynn:

dave742 makes excuses for why the blood continues to flow in Israel and the rest of the Middle East. He is the cheerleader for the kingdom of islam brandishing it’s sword atop the hill calling for it’s children to shed more blood, their work is not done.

Feb 5, 2009 - 8:42 am 80. ronnie dobbs:

Yes, Dave742 is engaging in “tu quoque” – A common tactic, where perpetrators and their useful idiots accuse you of what they’re actually doing.

And no sense of perspective. “Cops shoot people and murderers shoot people, so cops are as bad as murderers.” A fallacy that tugs on the heartstrings. “Oh, those poor victims. The murderers, I mean. Free Mumia!”

Another point: there can be peace in the Middle East. And eventually, there will be. It’s just a question of how. If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be peace. If the Israelis lay down their arms, there will be genocide, then peace.

One point that may help others understand the difference between Hamas and Israel: Israel kills civilians when it misses.

No point in arguing this with light-minded crayon-eaters like Dave742. Doesn’t really matter what you say or how well-reasoned or correct you are. Arguing with him and his ilk is like trying to teach a dog to sing. It wastes your time and gets the dog pissed off.

Feb 5, 2009 - 9:55 am 81. Blue Broctor:

I have seen Satan, He is in the eyes of an old lady with the black rags on her head. See the face of evil in a granny. Muslim heaven? She’ll find out who her real boss is when she hangs by the neck until dead.

Feb 5, 2009 - 10:25 am 82. rvastar:

“Hamas has even said they would react the same way if Muslim had taken their land. It’s the occupation.”

I pointed out the FACT that Egypt “occupied” Gaza — no suicide bombings or violent resistance from “Palestinians”.

I pointed out the FACT that Jordan “occupied” the West Bank — no suicide bombings or violent resistance from “Palestinians”.

Care to lie — oops, I mean “try” — again, dave?

Feb 5, 2009 - 12:30 pm 83. rvastar:

dave -

Iran is assisting the Palestinians, and are therefore the only country with international law. Have fun with that one.

That argument may hold up in Looney Lefty Land, but back here in the real world, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Therefore, Iran is assisting the “Palestinians” with attacking a sovereign neighboring country, dave.

Same thing in Lebanon.

Care to explain that, dave?

Feb 5, 2009 - 12:36 pm 84. rvastar:

dave -

Why no comment on how the American “occupation” of Iraq justifies Muslim fanatics arranging for the rapes of 80 women so that they can be shamed into becoming suicide bombers?

Eh, dave?

Feb 5, 2009 - 12:39 pm 85. rvastar:

Help us out, dave.

Explain to us what kind of liberal makes excuses for the wanton, wholesale barbarism of religious fanatics who want to subjugate their societies under the most illiberal form of govt in existence?

Feb 5, 2009 - 12:42 pm 86. rvastar:

dave -

When you’re not defending suicide bombers and head choppers, you still shilling for Chavez in your spare time?

Feb 5, 2009 - 12:44 pm 87. dave742:

rvastar:
“I pointed out the FACT that Egypt “occupied” Gaza — no suicide bombings or violent resistance from “Palestinians”. I pointed out the FACT that Jordan “occupied” the West Bank — no suicide bombings or violent resistance from “Palestinians”.”

I answered you. You actually have to read to find out what the response is. I will cut and paste the answer for you, with some editing:

As far as I know, Egypt was not killing Palestinians and kicking them off their land and ejecting them from their homes so Egyptians could build settlements there. Same for the Jordanians. This makes a difference…Remember that Palestinians did not use suicide bombing for the first 27 years of the occupation. For those 27 years Israel had not started its settlements in earnest. It is only when the settlement construction started in full swing that the bombing started. Also, what set off the suicide bombing was the Baruch Goldstein massacre. Once the Israelis started walking into Palestinian mosques and massacring Palestinians did Hamas get fed up and decided to respond.

Read.

“That argument may hold up in Looney Lefty Land, but back here in the real world, Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005″

My quote that this responds to was not about Gaza being occupied. Pay attention. Gaza is occupied under international law. It has no control over its border, coast, airspace, etc. For you the law is “looney left land.”

Feb 5, 2009 - 12:57 pm 88. doubtful:

dave742,

Don’t waste your time with the people on such sites like this, highly taken with prejudice. You would never be able to reason them out of a logical way in which you persuade your argument based upon. These are the blind & deaf to the truth, no matter how much you will to reasoning, stiff mind we call them.

PS. The Iranian case is quite different than the dispersed militant organizations. After all it’s a government with all the tools in it’s disposal looking for its interests throughout the world, just like the others do.

Feb 5, 2009 - 3:55 pm 89. doubtful:

Btw, as with the title of this stage, seems the people here are in hurry, to where they’re in rush? Only God knows… Slower, Please!

Feb 5, 2009 - 6:00 pm 90. marty:

Perhaps instead of “kicking them out of their homes” as dave says, the israelis should have allowed them to stay, but made them pay a tribute.
And i’m also in hurry.

Feb 5, 2009 - 9:01 pm 91. Alireza:

dave742,

Most people who contribute to this site suffer from INTENTIONAL IGNORANCE and they are masters of making up words, stories and baseless dramatic statement. At the end of the day more people get killed and for 50 years still everything is what it was before.

I’m almost at the point that believe Israel DOES NOT WANT to make peace and maintaining the status que is what they wish for. EVERYTHING is crap and propaganda.

Now meanwhile Iran is also taking advantage of the situation, and the Arabs are doing an excellent above the average to make more infighting and diversion is truly getting what it theirs.

I truly believe Israel WANTS and THIRST for Iran being involve with Hamas so this state of nothing being settled continued until eternity. Israel and Iran serve each other greatly, on the expense of Palestine.

So what you wrote here, please know that most people on this site are infected with bias and dogmatic virus and as soon as it comes to Palestinians this virus explode and people lose their logic and senses. Now fasten your seatbelt and read more propaganda posts.

Feb 5, 2009 - 10:11 pm 92. dave742:

Alireza:
“Israel DOES NOT WANT to make peace”

Of course not. They broke the latest truce on Nov. 4 because of Hamas’ “peace offensive”. Whenever it looks like Hamas is making concilatory gestures and they are in the media saying they will recognize Israel inside the ‘67 borders, Israel freaks out and does whatever they can to provoke Hamas. They break the truce, Hamas launches rockets, and Israel is free to massacre Palestinians. They just make sure the media forgets about the part that Israel broke the truce. Israel has been doing this forever. The can only continue their expansion plans if there is chaos and conflict. It’s the same with the US. It’s sad it’s so easy to get the sheeple to fall in line. If I was president, I could get the sheeple in this country to support a war on Sweden within 3 months using propaganda alone.

Feb 6, 2009 - 7:07 am 93. LynnS:

I see the cheerleaders for suicide and murder are gathering around. I was wondering how long it would take before they smelled blood in the air.

Feb 6, 2009 - 7:17 am 94. Chuck:

Dave 742

Al Qaeda’s assertion that 9/11 was due to the outrage of US troops on Saudi soil is a statement worth dwelling on for a minute. Technically that could be considered “occupation”. No doubt that was what the hijackers themselves believed. But I am more interested in what those who inspired and directed them hoped to accomplish. I think there is a simple answer. They hoped that this act would gain them popularity in the Muslim world; which it did for a time. Their barbarism in Iraq,
particularly the targeting of Shiites, has done more that any occupation to discredit the cause of martyrdom operations in the Muslim world. Shaming men and women into being suicide bombers means that they are running out of volunteers. I think these stories are illustrative of this trend.

The correlation between occupation and suicide bombing is significant, but this in itself doesn’t go nearly far enough in analyzing the phenomenon. I am beginning to think that those directing these operations, rocket attacks, etc. are more interested in preserving the status quo than getting rid of any occupier. If peace broke out they would be out of a job.

Thanks for your thoughts.

“To those leaders around the globe who seek to sow conflict, or blame their society’s ills on the West — know that your people will judge you on what you can build, not what you destroy.”

-Barack Obama

Feb 6, 2009 - 12:03 pm 95. doubtful:

LynnS,

I really suspect that anybody here intends to cheer murder or suicidal operation. It’s all about a debate over the root cause of such inhuman acts (that in a natural & neutral condition is morally condemned in any form anytime anywhere), which is nothing than “enforced occupation” in the Middle East today, either by Israel or the US. There is no such acceptable justification for occupation as redoing history or time reversal. If so, then a country like Greece or Italy could hold that claim over most of the southern Europe, or for that matter Iran could do the same for most of the Middle East, South & Central Asia, if possible. That’s not just right.
You can never solve a problem until you understand it. Are you looking for a solution? or do you stand for the status quo and continuation of hatred & bloodshed?

dave742,
“They can only continue their expansion plans if there is chaos and conflict.”

Ye, this sentence correctly serve both Israel & Iran. Both need a crisis & an enemy to survive. Both are religious states that are mirroring each other in nature, one Jewish, the other Islamic. No doubt that in a calm & peaceful Middle East, there would be neither an Islamic Republic of Iran, nor a Jewish state of Israel.

& to all the dear readers here,

Have you ever asked yourself what a two states solution for the Mid-East conflict means? Have you ever found a durable state, in history, without territorial integrity? [Bangladesh(Pakistan)-India example may serve as a good track]
Two states solution is not the real solution to the Middle East conflict, folly, encompassing with the wrong address. We might be near or far from that however, the real solution to this old wound is only one state comprising of Jews, Christians & Muslims regardless of their religion, brotherly living side by side in peace. There are prerequisites to that of which Islamic reformation is the major one, which at the moment may seem beyond the reach.
But at least we may wish for a real solution… Amen.

Feb 6, 2009 - 2:36 pm 96. Alireza:

I think IF and WHEN Palestinians and Israel decide to become one country—and I mean a true one nation—we will face a new powerful base in the Middle East. However, I don’t think that will happen. But if it does, mixing a democratic system with large population and some oil and resources, then the whole Middle East will rise as a serious power base, where U.S. and Russia AND Iran will never agree to it.

I think Jews and Muslims, at the end of the day, will get along much better than Christians and Jews, given Christians always view Jews as Jesus killer, no matter what they say, they don’t like Jews. But in the Middle East that’s not the case, IF the land issue get resolved.

Feb 6, 2009 - 6:20 pm 97. doubtful:

Alireza,

I never heard of hydrocarbon resources in the east Mediterranean, nor did I of a population more than 15 million (whole Palestinians plus Israeli citizens). Anyway what I mean here is not from power point in the militaristic term or with materialistic priority. In other words, it’s all a matter of quality (and not quantity) which is the great advantage of this corner of the Middle East in the world scale. Economic prosperity could be only a resulting fruit of such prospect.

How the world sees this key problem, what would be its approach to it, and how it would be tackled in practice in the favor of opportunities, are among the so many fundamental questions that next to the unfolding events in the Middle Ease & the world stage, the next generations and history will judge the answers.

We’d better not to forget the grim reality of this post that is heartbreaking:

A WOMAN suspected of recruiting more than 80 female suicide bombers has confessed to organising their rapes so she could later convince them that martyrdom was the only way to escape the shame.

It’s a stigma on humanity. Nobody who is aware of what’s going on with these victims of evil forces amongst the human society could stay indifferent and silent. Accusation, blame game & phony quarrel are not the way to resolution. Unfortunately, something is going wrong with all of us!

Feb 7, 2009 - 4:45 am 98. LynnS:

Thinking of the root and the tree is very useful in examining those who support or make excuses for suicide, murder, and the recruitment of men, women and children for this mission of death. We are taught that by their fruit we will know them, and this is certainly true when examining the call to death as the path to paradise made by the kingdom of Islam. If the meaning of martyr is to witness than we are all being called to martyrdom.

Feb 7, 2009 - 8:41 am 99. Kevin Toolis:

Our production company manyriversfilms has made a number of films on suicide bombing with ex-CIA agent Robert Baer called the Cult of the Suicide Bomber. These films were broadcast on Channel 4 in the UK and contain a wealth of unique interviews and material on the origins and development of suicide bombing across the globe.

There are clips of the films on You Tube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7v1C0VUhyA

And on our website

http://www.manyriversfilms.co.uk/pages/productions/the_cult_of_the_suicide_bomber.htm

And the DVD can be bought on amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Suicide-Bomber-Robert-Baer/dp/B000FG8BO6/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1234440795&sr=8-1

I hope you find the material they contain informative.

yours

Kevin Toolis

Director

Feb 12, 2009 - 5:16 am 100. Obsta:

This means of “recruitment” was used against Israel for a number of years, and I’m fairly sure was known well enough that it even made it to cable news coverage. But it’s rarely mentioned, because, one has to assume, of fear of angering those of “other cultures”, in other words Islamic radicals, who frighten media people enough that they censor themselves.

Mar 5, 2009 - 6:27 pm

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