97 Comments

1. David W. Lincoln:

It is high time to bring the whole rotten edifice down. What stormed out of the Arabian Peninsula 14 centuries ago has blighted the globe for far too long.

Going after the Sons of Allah in court, when they are not on the offensive, is an important development.

Nov 12, 2009 - 11:16 pm 2. kochevnik:

The State Department will target Iran, even while failing to show any connection to Hasan. This timing is made to coincide with the Vatican agenda to uproot Iran, install a central bank, and instill a financial system of usury in the Iranian economy. Iran is one of the few remaining nations which don’t pay tribute to the Vatican via the Bank of England.

With Iran under control, the Vatican will be free to toy with currencies, wreaking havoc on a weekly basis, until every last person on earth pays daily tribute. Soon afterward the purges of heretics will begin, and camps will be readied to immolate unbelievers by the millions in the third Inquisition.

Nov 12, 2009 - 11:45 pm 3. Winston:

I believe and correct me if I am wrong that Obama’s administration has no concrete or cohesive policy on Iran or on any other hostile countries. It doesnt know what it is doing. Goes back to the ‘inexperience person’ debate during the election. This man can not make up his mind about the so-called good war in Afghanistan. So frustrating!

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:16 am 4. Pajamas Media » Feds Move Against Iranian Mosques in U.S.:

[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:03 am 5. Terry:

I think a very good case can be made that Islam is NOT a religion but an extremist political movement with some religious aspects. Islam itself should be on trial & could, in my opinion, be redefined out of the catagory of ”religion” & thus not covered by freedom of religion. In our current culture of political correctness, it is highly unlikely for Islam to be examined objectively – but, any objective analysis of the Qur’an, the Hadith, Shariá Law, the works of 1400 years of Islamic scholars, the sermons of literally thousands of Islamic clerics, the statements of such terrorist organizations such as Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood, & even the Taliban & the government of Iran, well, I have no doubt that Islam would be condemned, found guilty, of being an extremist political movement, & consequently, banned.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:04 am 6. Francis W. Porretto:

There’s been tension over the latitude conferred by “freedom of religion” for quite some time: Indians and their mescal mushrooms, Rastafarians and marijuana, and so forth. Some have argued that such offenses against the statute laws are mala prohibita, rather than mala in se, and that therefore exemptions can be granted in particular cases. But for a “religion” or a “religious organization” to funnel funds to terrorists, or to be caught complicit in terrorist conspiracies, displays a difference in kind.

At the core of the matter is whether an ideology with an activist totalitarian political program, which denies the validity of all allegiances except for allegiances to itself and literally commands aggression against “infidels,” qualifies as a religion. I think not; others disagree. We shall see.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:37 am 7. gboisjo:

Is the US sure it wants to go down this road and irritate the Muslim community here in the US and abroad. The media on the left will beg the the Muslim population here in the US for restraint and understanding in this matter. The clowns on the left will be sure to point out to the Muslim community that the US is not calling a spade a spade it is is simply following the rule of law.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:43 am 8. genghis:

The feds should sieze the property. Great location. Ideal for a BBQ restaurant.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:44 am 9. Idoc:

How many more innocent American lives will it take before we start intercepting idiotic adherents to such a bloodthirsty religion?Seriously, does anyone, other than a small subset of the U.S. population, really care if we offend muslims (lower case intentional)? Wait, I forgot. Barry said we are one of the world’s largest muslim nations. Nevermind.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:01 am 10. Terry Gain:

Advocating terrorism is not be protected as either free speech or freedom of religion. The government should seize the property of those who advocate terrorism and produce terrorists. Every mosque in the country should be monitored to see whether terrorism is being advocated.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:06 am 11. SGT Ted:

If these were churches frequented by abortion clinic bombers I doubt we’d see such hand wringing over the 1st Amendment from the Democrat Party press organs.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:24 am 12. Jack in Silver Spring:

Michael,

With all due respect, I maintain that Islam is not a religion but a political ideology parading around as a religion. After all, what are we to make of a religion that seeks world domination and commands its subjects to kill, to be willing to be killed and to lie to achieve that end?

Also, I mention that when I was younger (in the halcyon 1950s) there was law making it a crime to advocate the violent overthrow of the United States government. Does that law still exist, and if it does, why can’t it be invoked against those advocating jihad in mosques?

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:24 am 13. seanmahair:

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. ….

Giving them aid and comfort. Hmmmmmmm. Free speech vs aid and comfort?

Adhering to their enemies. Yet again hmmm. Calling for death to our people and for liberty and freedom and the US to go to Hell.

I don’t know it seems these mosques are less like churches and more like political flophouses. While I am a strong proponent of freedom of speech, that speech is protected until you threaten to kill me and then I’m sorry but your speech is now actionable but then again I’m a reactionary.

So I’m all for charging these folks with treason and shipping them back to whatever country they came from. For free, our treat.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:31 am 14. anton:

A tiny first step.

We cannot allow our enemies to live, and flourish, in our midst.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:41 am 15. Instapundit » Blog Archive » FEDS MOVE AGAINST Iranian mosques in the United States….:

[...] FEDS MOVE AGAINST Iranian mosques in the United States. [...]

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:48 am 16. Thomas_L......:

These are not “American” houses of “worship”, they are militant anti-American jihadi safe houses. Any mosque that goes political, as in Islamist, should lose all protection from the state, inherent in the constitution. Do they have more rights preventing the intrusion of the state than Joe the Plumber? All he did was question the One.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:54 am 17. The Road Less Traveled:

There are mosques in Houston, Maryland, California, and New York that the Federal Government has seized and the local news reports say they have been shipping money in and out of our country to Iran. The news says many people are celebrating that this is finally happening and that they are saying it is about time something is done. They also said that they have been investigating these four mosques for over a year now and they seized them yesterday.

I do not call it a religion; it is a cult because of the words in the Koran.

Nov 13, 2009 - 6:55 am 18. Wearyman:

I think that we HAVE been dealing with this in an “underground” manner for some time. At least on the Conservative side of the political sphere.

One of the solid conclusions that most conservative thinkers have come to is that Islam is NOT a religion, but a socio-political philosophy with some religious trappings. Indeed, it bears a strong resemblance to what is normally known as a Cult. Most Cults are illegal in the United States as, for various reasons, they do not fall under the protections of Freedom of Religion. Islam should be treated the same.

I applaud the Feds’ decision and hope to see many more Mosque raids in the future.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:09 am 19. RE:

For real? Or as it a head fake to create appearances?

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:21 am 20. james:

Freedom of speach has always had an exception for treason. That exception might not be applied to religion.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:36 am 21. ETAB:

The difficulty is that Islam is not and has never operated as a religion. It is a political, social and econmic ideology, cocooned within a religion.

Its religious axioms, that is, its concepts pertaining to the metaphysical, are scant, nonanalytic and primarily concepts taken from the Judaic beliefs of the 7thc.

Its primary focus both in the early 7th c text and the later hadiths, which became increasingly militant in their abrogation of the early texts…is focused on a particular societal system. This is a tribal mode, rejecting the peoples of other tribes, and focused on their militant subjugation. Mohammed, we know, began these military campaigns against other peoples almost immediately and the advance of Islam -as a societal and political imperialism – spread throughout Asia and Europe until the 15th-16th centuries.

It is now, again, on the move, and we can analyze it as Islamic fascism, operating within a number of styles – Al Qaeda being one of them – as well as militant activities against Islamic ethnic minorities and religions in predominantly Muslim countries.

I consider that this current phase of Islamic militantism is due to the continuance of the tribal authoritarianism in the Islamic nations of the Middle East and their refusal to enable a civic (rather than tribal) societal structure with a free and empowered middle class. The middle class ought to have the political and economic power, not an elite hereditary tribe or dictatorship. That’s the cause of current Islamic fascism.

Al Qaeda originally began as an internal to Islam conflict over tribalism/civic structure and was then ‘exported’ to the West to get it out of those Islamic countries. But the real ‘festering cause’ is internal to the Islamic nations.

A major and key problem with reforming Islam is that its beliefs, which are tribal, which reject other peoples, which are militant and imperialistic…are all political and societal beliefs. Not religious. BUT, they are cloaked as if they were a religion and thus, it is difficult for the West to deal with these beliefs.

We in the West have long ago separated church and state; we have a ‘hands off’ policy of the former and freely criticize the latter. Islam merges the two, and hides the dysfunctionality of its state, by calling it a religion and refusing to address its internal ills.

The West has to, even if Islam won’t, separate these two sets of beliefs, and reject the violence and militance of the political agenda.

Iran has an imperialist agenda and is intent on taking over the ME.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:37 am 22. V4Fan:

I wonder, just wonder, if we aren’t on the sidelines of an internal revolution between the Leninist leadership of The United States and the men and women in the FBI, CIA, etc. who still value The Constitution.

This operation may have been as much a surprise to Obama, Holder, etc. as it was to us.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:37 am 23. Charlie:

The phrase “in a crowded theatre,” as Holmes should’ve been perceptive enough to note, takes yelling “fire!” out of the realm of First Amendment rights and into the realm of property rights. You can go to the public square and yell “fire!” all you want. You shouldn’t be allowed to disrupt someone else’s business with word or deed.

Same for the mosques. Presumably, there will be more grounds to move against the Iranian-backed mosques than just a bunch of miscreants sitting around in their house of worship idly proclaiming the desirability of offing some quantity of infidels for the delight of Allah. I would guess the reliance will be on conspiracy laws rather than “hate” speech. In other words, if the discussion turned to instructions on when and where to meet for guns, bombs, terrorist training, commission or funding of crimes, etc., it’s no longer a First Amendment issue.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:43 am 24. Michael Ledeen:

dream on. this has been in the works for years, the first salvo was last December.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:54 am 25. Samson:

good article. no surprise that the muslims hide in mosques on the battle field whether a shooting war or political war.

they are all in! no rules and we had better get used to it.

islam uses duplicity to achieve it’s goals.

western morals and decency are not in their vocabulary, they consider our adherence to morals and truth as a weakness and failing and have NO qualms about exploiting them.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:01 am 26. shanghaicharlie:

Islam is not a religion, its a civilization, an all-encompassing culture that dictates the smallest details of people’s lives. It is totalitarian and hence anti-Western, anti-democratic. There are no “moderate” Muslims, only kafirized ones. Nadal was following the teachings of Mohammed, the Mohammed of Medina, not Mecca.

Islam is dualistic logic not Aristotelian cause and effect.

Until Westerners begin to use the proper words to describe Islam we cannot understand it.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:02 am 27. Jack in Silver Spring:

It is gratifying to see how many have come to realize that Islam is not a religion in the Western sense of the term. Some of you have called it cult, others a political philosophy, and I called a political ideology. Let us hope this message gets through to more and more Americans.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:09 am 28. Dwight:

It may also have some interesting implications for some frequenters of right-wing web sites who mutter ominously about overthrowing the commie/diversity government with their stockpiled guns and ammo blah, blah, blah.

Or should we just humor them as harmless loudmouths?

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:14 am 29. Henry Bowman:

It might be worthwhile to recall that during the 1950s and 1960s, the FBI investigated many southern churches that were active in supporting the KKK and other such terrorists. There are differences between then and now, to be sure, but it is supreme folly to ignore these mosques.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:27 am 30. Stephen in Afghanistan:

#5 Terry:

Absolutely could not have been said better. Perfect, my friend.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:38 am 31. hoads:

That even our military has fallen prey to radical Islam does not give me confidence in anything this government does to supposedly shine the light on Islamism. And, for that matter, I assume that the conspiracy to placate Islam runs deep within all levels of government and this latest is nothing more than an attempt to have a showdown in court the placaters have contrived for us to lose to further empower the Islamists and their creeping jihad.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:39 am 32. DJ:

That free speech thing didn’t bother the Justice Dept when the Clinton administration went after the Branch Davidians in Waco and burned their compound to the ground.
A religous leader and non-violent sect who taught the Government would come after them were all burned alive.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:51 am 33. Jim Rockford:

It’s about time this happened. I am absolutely amazed that it is happening under the Obama administration.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:54 am 34. Jettboy:

Once again like a broken and desperate record, have you demonstrated at an Islamic mosque yet? Have you held signs questioning their religious standing and patriotism? I believe a movement, much like the Tea Party marches, must begin against the Muslim murder-suicide cult. Otherwise all your doing is sitting in your basements typing words that few people will read. Its time to make Muslims uncomfortable lest they feel invincible.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:00 am 35. calatrava:

21. ETAB: nice comment.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:21 am 36. Tess:

We have designated one man
to be our President and our
Commander in Chief. Until
this individual speaks out
against ISLAMIC TERROR here
in our own country and abroad. We must wait!

If and when President OBAMA
tells the people of these
United States that we have
seized these dens of Iniquity. Our general public
will “be wondering what is
happening”. We must have
a strong leader in this
action.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:24 am 37. bill:

“Is the US sure it wants to go down this road and irritate the Muslim community here in the US and abroad.”

I hope it is. The Muslim community has dedicated itself to irritating us.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:26 am 38. Sarkis:

Mircea Eliade, a titan of comparative religion, included communism in hus definitive Encyclopedia of Religions. Protected by the constitution?

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:27 am 39. BackwardsBoy:

When compared to real religions, islam fails the test. It’s an ideology that promotes death instead of life, murder instead of forgiveness and lying instead of truthtelling. If you consider yourself a muslim first and an American second (like the murderous Maj. Hasan), then you do not deserve the privilege of residence here.
This action is timely and should be applied to other mosques and holdings of our avowed enemies.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:39 am 40. Phineas:

Michael:

“But at least it’s on the docket now. We need this debate. We should have had it long since.”

The problem is, it seems to me, that it’s almost impossible to have an honest debate if our political class cannot even accurately name and describe the other side. Bush’s “War on Terror” was a laughable euphemism (you don’t make war on a tactic) that looks serious only by comparison to the even more ridiculous attempts to deny reality coming from his successors.

Until we can discuss openly and frankly the nature of Islam and its core pillars of jihad, sharia, supremacism, antisemitism, and misogyny without engaging in either denial or anti-Muslim hysteria, we’re never going to win this struggle, let alone figure the proper bounds of free speech in wartime.

Sidenote: I’m just about done with Michael’s new book, “Accomplice to Evil: Iran and the war against the West.” Excellent, and relevant to this discussion.

Nov 13, 2009 - 9:47 am 41. Banned by Huffpo:

The public should be invited to participate in the torching of these terroist hide outs.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:01 am 42. toad:

Well color me cynical but the Feds move may be motivated by the “cover your a syndrome”. While the political appointees my be infested with the PC bug there is also a fear of the underside of the bus.
A growing sentiment seems to be:

“If I’m in my pew and I hear someone shout, “Allah Akbar.” I’ll take that as a sign to move in and shoot.”

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:08 am 43. sule:

Lemme guess…to avoid discrimination charges, Christian churches and Synagogs will be thrown into the mix.

Can’t discriminate, or have we forgotten the white granny shakedowns at airports after 9/11? Expect the Feds to curtail speech (can’t disagree with the Left in any thing) must control associations (churches forced to hire homosexuals) must control money (look out; here come the taxes)

Waiting for the other shoe to drop I am…

Therefore; no place of gathering for worship can say anything, do anything, represent anything that Leftists don’t like.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:09 am 44. Professor Guvinoff:

Islam, widely misunderstood in the west, is often treated by the “innocent until proven guilty” prescription, with a tendency to get lost in the “innocent” phase of the analytical process.

This is not a coincidence. Islam has fourteen centuries on the odometer. It would not have gotten so far if it was as uneffective in practice as its epistemology is foreign to our own. The West draws its strength from its accomplishments in science, the arts and the respect of the individual. Islam draws its strength from emotional leverage through intimidation, abuse, and bullying, all the way down to the practice of terror.

Mohammed in Medina told his soldiers to strike terror in the heart of the enemy. If this particular “technique” was as ineffective in practice as it is immoral by our standards, it would have been abandonned long ago, on its empirical merits, irrespective of its moral dimensions. It works because the enemy can waste time and energy trying to rationalize their fears instead of acting on them, which is how the muslim conquests have progressed.

Think about it: Islam conquered the Persian empire, enormously superior in numbers and resources at the time.

We can easily see how intimidation works today: Most of our “leaders” are paralyzed by the fear of offending someone if they only do justice to the facts. We talk about “political correctness” but it is only verbal cowardice. If we don’t learn to recognize a jihadist when we see one, regardless of his level of western education (Doctor of medecine in Hasan’s case!), we are just turkeys, and if we let our exquisite sensitivities trump our courage, we are cooked!

Do yourself a favor: Think about it the next time you get to enjoy your Cranberry and Orange Relish.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:09 am 45. Michael Ledeen:

I think it makes more sense to say, as I have tried to do, that radical Islam is the language used by many evil people to frame their ideology. There is a huge variety of people in the Muslim world. Our enemies define themselves very carefully–and they kill more Muslims that infidels–and we should do the same.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:15 am 46. Mayor:

You learn something new every day. Today, after reading response #2, I learned that Dan Brown reads PJM. Who knew?!

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:35 am 47. ETAB:

I think it is unhelpful to define the problem as only ‘radical Islam’ and ‘evil people’ and linking the two.

I think that Islam, as a ‘religion’..and as I’ve said, it is more a politico-societal-economic ideology than a religion, for it says almost nothing about the metaphysical…but I think that Islam as a religion,i.e. protected beliefs and behaviour..has to be addressed and opened up to debate and reform.

If Islam doesn’t do this then the evil terrorist beliefs within it, become impossible to deal with…because they are defined as an integral part of a ‘religion’.

So, the whole religion, Islam, has to be opened up to debate, analysis and reform. THEN, they can reject the militant beliefs, the exhortations to jihad, to killing all Other peoples, to constant hatred of and rejection of Others. It’s all there, in the Qu’ran and the hadiths…allthis violence. It has to be opened to debated.

The other thing that has to be done is to open up the Middle East Islamic nations to a civic political/economic mode, permitting a middle class to gain control of the legislature and economy. This is democracy. The current tribal hierarchical control, which reduces everyone to ‘peasantry’ withut power, has to be ended. This will end Islamic fascism.

Two things. Open Islam completely up for debate and reform. And, open the Islamic nations up to remove the tribal political mode and enable a civic mode, with a middle class.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:40 am 48. MarkD:

A nation that could deal with the Branch Davidians with such finesse can surely handle the Muslims. That turned out so well.

Sarcasm aside, Michael Ledeen has it right. I don’t care what you believe about me. I only care how you act.

Incitement to riot, commit murder, or treason? It matters not that you are a Muslim and it took place in a mosque. You are going to prison, or being deported from whence you came.

Major Nidal? Out of the Army, for conduct unbecoming, long before he got to the shooting stage.

Fred Phelps and his deranged band? Jailed for disturbing the peace. Other people have rights, too.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:00 am 49. David W. Lincoln:

Michael, given your experience with Iran, how then could you categorize what you said in point 42 at 10:15 am on November 13, in the light of “Not without my daughter”, which as you know was made into a movie after it was a book.

Are those who exulted in western fashion when the Shah was on the throne, who threw away the accroutements of Western culture out the window when Khomeini came to power, and dressed in somber black; are they the first double thinkers (reference to “1984″ by George Orwell) or double speakers (reference to “The Case for Democracy”
by Natan Sharansky)?

Curious minds would like to know.

Thanks.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:19 am 50. Morton Doodslag:

It is truly frightening. The mosque Hasan attended was a Sunni war indoctrination center. There are hundreds, and perhaps over a thousand of them dotted across this nation. But within days of his rampage, the US is fecklessly dealing with a mere couple Shi’ite mosques… while the far more numerous Sunni mosques are allowed to continue their war indoctrination. We are really a nation gone insane.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:36 am 51. Jerome:

Michael,

Is it your view that there is an Islam which is not radical? I tend to the view that Islam makes claims that are inherently radical, and that the appearance of moderation among American muslims is due entirely to their being very much in the minority. How moderate are the muslims of Europe? As muslims begin to think they may have sufficient numbers to impose their will, they become “radical”. At Fort Hood, “sufficient numbers” was one.

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:40 am 52. shanghaicharlie:

Michael, I think it makes less sense to frame Islam as “radical” or “moderate”. Osama bin Laden is a “moderate” Muslim in the sense that he follows the teachings of Mohammed, the Mohammed of Medina and not Mecca. We should say a moderate Muslim is a kafirized Muslim. One that has enlightened himself by contact with Christians, Jews, Buddhists and Hindus. It wouldn’t matter if Israel were Hindu, Buddhist or Christian as far as Islam is concerned.

A Muslim is not the political equal to a kafir because the Koran says that a Muslim is superior. So where does the good person who is a Muslim get his basis for friendship? The same place as everyone else does—from equality, the same equality that is inferred from the Golden Rule.

Treat others as you want to be treated.

Which others? All others, without exception. The Golden Rule implies the unity of humanity. There are no limits to its application.

The Golden Rule does not apply to Islam. Indeed, Islam denies the truth of the Golden Rule. The duality of Islam divides all humanity into Muslims and kafirs. There are no two groups more unequal than kafirs and Muslims.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:04 pm 53. Dave M.:

The seizure of “American houses of worship” which preach the violent otherthrow of the U.S. and the killing of “infidels” does not bother me in the least (does your conscious bother you?). However, so-called “hate-speech” laws scare the heck out of me.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:10 pm 54. shanghaicharlie:

Dualism is the key to understanding Islam. On the surface many parts of the Koran contradict each other. The usual explanation is that the older, nicer verses are abrogated by the later verses. But in reality all of the Koran is true since it comes from the only god, Allah. Allah is perfection, and therefore, the contradictory statements in the Koran are all true. This violates Aristotelian kafir logic, but it defines the Islamic dualistic logic. In Islam two contradictory things can both be true at the same time. So for every one of those statistically insignificant “good” verses, each one is weak, and the stronger harsh and violent verses are stronger. Contradictions are integral to Islamic logic.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:14 pm 55. Mr. Independant:

Michael Ledeen,

Yes this is a debate that we should have had a long time ago. And it shouldn’t even be controversial. The 1st Amendment gives all of us the freedom of worship. Executing search warrants at places of worship does not impede that. If such searches are ever used to prevent peaceful worship, then that will be an entirely different discussion. But thus far it does not even appear that way.

There is one cautionary note I would make to you though. When you write about preventing or stopping terrorism, you undermine your credibility when you advocate for it. Your suggestion in post #42 did just that.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:38 pm 56. Real Deal:

’bout damn time.

Nov 13, 2009 - 12:49 pm 57. Bob R:

Let’s get the Crusades going again. They want to play with Death,let’s bring it on. Where’s the Pope when you need him. They want ‘jihad’, let’s give it to them in spades. I see nothing wrong with doing to them what we did to the last “world terrorists”, Germany, Italy and The Emperor of Japan. Send them back to pre-Stone Age, although that will be hard to do with some of these Muslim countries.They’re already there. Turn Mecca into a glassed over parking lot. Make lots and lots of dead hero muslims.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:45 pm 58. Bohemond:

Private property which has been used in the furtherance of a criminal act may be seized and, subject to a court proceeding, forfeited to the government. A building which happens to be used as a place of worship is nonetheless just real estate, and subject to the same law as a crackhouse or a drugrunner’s car.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:49 pm 59. Bohemond:

I should add, probably more relevantly to this case, that Federal law provides for the freezing or seizure of assets (financial and otherwise) of persons and entities accused of violating certain statutes, especially those dealing with financial crime, and (as here) terrorist funding.

Nov 13, 2009 - 1:54 pm 60. Bob R:

The muslims say they relish the thought of death for jihad,let’s give them. Let the West quit pussy-footing around. White guys of European decent have historically proven to be the baddest critter in the jungle. OK. Let’s do it. Start killing muslims,around the world,until they,all of them,scream and holler “UNCLE”. Not just the good ones and the bad ones (’cause the so-called “good ones” keep breeding more “bad ones”), but all of them. If you are a Christian, you’ve got to look at Muhammed as the Anti-Christ and one of the Proclaimed False Prophets to come. That’s what the Bible says. False Prophets are coming;or do the Christians of today believe that Muhammed is a real Prophet? I don’t. History shows him to be a gold digging (remember his first marriage was to a much older,wealthy woman), pedophile ( remember he married a 6 year old and had sex with her when she was 9 or 10, or 11 or 12, whatever, he was a pedophile and a homicidal maniac of mass proportion,of whom the ‘laws’ of Allah applied to all muslims,except himself.The run of the mill muslim could only have,what,3 or 4 wives, while he could have as many as he wanted. Allah told him so. Rrriigghhtt!

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:14 pm 61. Michael Ledeen:

yes, there are plenty of muslims who are not radical, and there are versions of islam–lots of sufis, for example–that are pretty quiescent. Remember, too, that the Iranian Grand Ayatollahs are increasingly opposed to the regime.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:18 pm 62. Charles Kirtley:

I’m willing to bet that whoever is responsible for the mosques being siezed will eventually be fired.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:23 pm 63. Bob R:

And this winged-horse,Barrack,(where have we heard that name lately??) that the Angel Gabriel furnished him to ride across all of Arabia one night;now that’s a tale worth buying into,isn’t it? What are these people smoking, anyway?!?

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:24 pm 64. Bob R:

Mr. Ledeen, yes, there sure are a huge bunch of ‘pretty quiescent’ muslims out there and they are part of the problem,simply because they are so damn ‘quiescent’. And by and large,they are breeding lots and lots of more radical,fundamentalist,West-hating,Ill-educated,un-civilized,murderous,misogynistic,child-abusing pedophiles, who Say they want you DEAD.

Nov 13, 2009 - 2:36 pm 65. Knotacommie:

Good. After we close EVERY MOSQUE IN THIS COUNTRY we need to then outlaw this gutter “relgion” and kick all its followers out of the country. And NEVER allow these scum anywhere near America again. Too many instances where all I ever hear from Islam is EXCUSES and how IM the problem.Like I had anything to do with Maj Malik Nidal Hasan, the father who ran over his own daughter and murdered her, the Buffalo, NY moslem who killed his own family etc. Islam is filth and must be cleansed. Remember the Bubonic plague of the 15th century? Islam started it. Just another attempt by islam at a worldwide caliphate. Do not kid yourselves, these scum will not stop until they are crushed.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:36 pm 66. Marc Malone:

Just a toe in the water. We’ll see if they decide to inch their way further in.

Anyone who has studied a little bit of the Koran realizes that “moderate” Muslims are just slackers, like Christians who advocate for abortion. Not very devout.

#21 ETAB – Excellent post!

#60 Bob R – Well, yes, we are the most proficient killers on the planet, which is why we are so reticent to act. Caucasians, when roused to fury, make everyone else look like pikers. We are aware of our potential. Sadly, the Islamists are not, or they wouldn’t be messing with us.

Think of the WWII strategic bombing campaigns. The firestorm of Dresden. If we had not nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Plan B was not to invade, but rather, to firebomb their croplands, and starve everyone to death over the Winter. Complete extermination.

#28 Dwight – Yes, you should take us seriously. You think these mutterings aren’t serious? The difference is that we are not advocating overthrow of a legitimate government. We are advocating enforcing the Constitution and throwing out those who have hijacked our country. We are patriots, not reactionaries. We have a responisbillity as Citizens to hold our government accountable.

I forget which post advocated immediate action rather than talk, but we do have to talk first. Ideas are powerful things. Only after the ideas have spread sufficiently can action be taken. If you act too soon, your action will fail. If you act too late, well, you’re too late.

Political movements have to build. These are historical forces. One year after the 2008 election mistake, the backlash is building. If we can hold off the destruction until the 2010 elections, we may survive all this.

If not, then you may see violence. It is a last resort, but it IS a resort. One must not quail from it, does it become necessary. The other side must come to know that you shan’t quail from it. Carry a big stick, and mean it.

Nov 13, 2009 - 3:47 pm 67. seansarto@gmail.com:

Let’s see ‘em sort through Korean assets..including, umm….Korea..

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:06 pm 68. spindok:

Islam is religion. That is a historical fact.

If we want to talk about the three great monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) we could dither all day about both similarities and differences. Yet at the end of the day we need to recognize that these are very seperate entities.

Maybe Isalm and Judaism are more similar in their legalistic approach to practice. The change between them came about through a long history too detailed to go into here.

In short, Judaism, as a diaspora nation absorbed much more from other cultures, from Greek Philosophy through post modern times and made adaptations. This fits well with the Jewish concept which is essentially evolutionary.

Islam lived and often thrived in exclusion to Christian and post-christian culture. Nobody cared about Saudi Arabia until oil became important – for example. Nobody cared abaut non Arab Muslims, such as those in Afghanistan and Iran until very recently. They were not a problem then.

So we deal with this now.

Bob R (60)wrote:

Let’s get the Crusades going again. They want to play with Death,let’s bring it on. Where’s the Pope when you need him. They want ‘jihad’, let’s give it to them in spades. I see nothing wrong with doing to them what we did to the last “world terrorists”, Germany, Italy and The Emperor of Japan. Send them back to pre-Stone Age, although that will be hard to do with some of these Muslim countries.They’re already there. Turn Mecca into a glassed over parking lot. Make lots and lots of dead hero muslims.”

-

So… I gotta let this nonsense go?

Sorry Bob, There is no winning anything here.

I think Obama is now fighting against the wiser folks who have been in this war for a long time now. Our best are getting killed because the idiot president cannot believe that making nice doesn’t work against the Taliban.

Shabbat Shalom,

Spindok

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:35 pm 69. Dwight:

Marc M wrote; “#28 Dwight – Yes, you should take us seriously. You think these mutterings aren’t serious? The difference is that we are not advocating overthrow of a legitimate government. We are advocating enforcing the Constitution and throwing out those who have hijacked our country. We are patriots, not reactionaries. We have a responisbillity as Citizens to hold our government accountable.”
———
———

And the difference between you and Jefferson Davis would be…what?

Whether you think the government is legitimate or not, the point is that there are laws in place against sedition and when you guys yack it up, you put yourselves in the same category as the Muslim mutterers.

Nov 13, 2009 - 4:53 pm 70. Dwight:

Bob R (60)wrote:

Let’s get the Crusades going again. They want to play with Death,let’s bring it on. Where’s the Pope when you need him. They want ‘jihad’, let’s give it to them in spades. I see nothing wrong with doing to them what we did to the last “world terrorists”, Germany, Italy and The Emperor of Japan. Send them back to pre-Stone Age, although that will be hard to do with some of these Muslim countries.They’re already there. Turn Mecca into a glassed over parking lot. Make lots and lots of dead hero muslims.”

And all the responsible people in the room either avert their eyes, or say “what the hell are you talking about?”

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:03 pm 71. kochevnik:

18. Wearyman:
>I think that we HAVE been dealing with this in an
>“underground” manner for some time. At least on the
>Conservative side of the political sphere.

>One of the solid conclusions that most conservative
>thinkers have come to is that Islam is NOT a
>religion, but a socio-political philosophy with
>some religious trappings. Indeed, it bears a strong
>resemblance to what is normally known as a Cult.
>Most Cults are illegal in the United States as, for
>various reasons, they do not fall under the
>protections of Freedom of Religion. Islam should be
>treated the same.

Then catholicism must also be eliminated. After all, it has several military branches including Jesuits and Nazis of Sedes Sacrorum. They have openly declared war on Europe and America in WWII and dozens of other wars. They even have their own nation. Why are they given protection? Moreover, why are you giving them aid and comfort?

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:11 pm 72. You Mean Feds Doing Something? «:

[...] Feds Move Against Iranian Mosques [...]

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:18 pm 73. Good Captain:

Bohemond is right and action similar to this was taken against White Supremists during the 80’s and 90’s in and around Northern Idaho. Despite the involvement of “their church”, lawsuits executing judgment against a wider conspiracy of illegal and violent racial crimes eventually “drained the swamp” leaving the movement w/ nothing to fall back on.

This is the correct strategy to follow to address the bile spewing out of offending mosques. The problem I foresee is that this policy is unlikely to be pursued fully as it must be for fear of offending our “friends” on the Arabian peninsula.

Nov 13, 2009 - 5:51 pm 74. Dave Surls:

“And the difference between you and Jefferson Davis would be…what?”

Well, for starters we aren’t Democrat Party slave-owners who are hot to turn traitor so that we can own other human beings without interference from the feds.

That’s part of YOUR proud tradition.

Not ours.

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:42 pm 75. Dave Surls:

‘And all the responsible people in the room either avert their eyes, or say “what the hell are you talking about?”’

What do you mean what’s he talking about?

He’s talking about doing the same thing to the Muslims you kind-hearted liberals did to the Germans and Japanese, namely deliberately targetting their civilian population, burning hundreds of thousands of them to death with napalm or atomic bombs (or whatever) until they quit screwing with us.

Personally, I think that’s a little too bloodthirsty under the circumstances, but I certainly have no trouble understanding what it is you liberals did to force the Germans and Japanese to their knees.

And it must be a good thing, becuase you libtards are always telling us what great presidents Roosevelt and Truman were (even though they weren’t).

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:53 pm 76. Do you think he’s a terrorist, or is he just weird? « Public Secrets:

[...] The war goes on as the US moves to seize four mosques and an office building, all allegedly owned by Iranian fronts. Meanwhile, to others, Nidal Hasan is a hero. Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)The [...]

Nov 13, 2009 - 7:57 pm 77. Brian Macker:

Islam, the religion itself is an incitement to violence. We’re only lucky that more don’t obey the call.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:24 pm 78. myth buster:

13. You can’t charge them with Treason, but you don’t have to. Calling for the violent overthrow of the US government is a different crime- sedition. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion does not legitimize seditious acts.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:41 pm 79. myth buster:

70. Wars end when one side loses either the will or the ability to continue fighting. Generally, breaking an enemy’s will is much easier and less bloody than breaking their strength, especially when you have the ability to shock and awe them. Nuking Mecca is a great idea to bring a swift end to the war. So is demonstrating that the Shock and Awe campaign of the Iraq War can now be executed by a couple of SSGNs, and we have 4 SSGNs in our arsenal. And when those subs are done launching missiles, they can fill the Straight of Hormuz with mines to shut down oil exports.

Nov 13, 2009 - 8:56 pm 80. Pragmatist:

So now go after the thousands of SAUDI sponsored Wahibbi Mosques University faculties and Quangos which are the REAL Islamic problem in the USA

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:03 pm 81. selwyn mills:

Wow! I can’t believe it…the Fed moving against the Islamic terrorist. It must be a military insurrection..a surprise for Obama while he consentrates on his show bisness tours around the world and preparing to create a NY circus by openning up a criminal case against 9/11 architect to take the heat off his everyday failures to deliver on the economy and pass his rediculous Health Plan.
This will be a firestorm if it is for real and a lot of pink slips for Fed agents. or maybe it calls for another breath-taking Obama orations…”Elegant
speech, but What did he say.”

Set the Caucasions free!!!

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:15 pm 82. Pragmatist:

ETAB your definitions of Islam are insightful and lucid. The only point you make on which I would disagree with you is that you think Islam is capable of being reformed.
Unfortunately the CULT has painted itself in to a corner on this as its Holy Book declares itself to be ‘the ACTUAL and UNALTERABLE word of God’ which does not leave much room for reform does it. As for interpretation many Mohammedans run and hide behind the Ancient Ambiguous Arabic in which the Koran is written when it is questioned and its nonsense and contradictions are exposed. Saying it can ONLY be understood in this PRIMITIVE AMBIGUOUS language. Thus exposing another huge problem for Islam as the Koran self proclaims it is ‘Clear and EASILY understood’ and ‘for ALL men for ALL time’ both of which of course it most patently is not. In fact in 1400 years there is not ONE universally accepted translation of the Koran and in fact some of it is UNTRANSLATABLE so much for being EASILY understood and being for ALL men.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:21 pm 83. Pragmatist:

The ONLY conclusions I draw from the action against IRANIAN sponsored Islamic Mosques and the ignoring of the FAR BIGGER problem of SAUDI sponsored Islamic Mosques is the the Mohammedan Obamanation BOGUS POTUS is a SUNNI and not a SHIA. His disgusting pathetic BOWING to the Sordid King of SAUDI would seem to prove this.

When Islam has finished fighting the Kaffirs and killing all the Jews the Sunnis and Shia’s will turn on each other with more ferocity than they already do now and have done for 1400 years. Islam is such a VIOLENT CULT it has to have an enemy.

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:33 pm 84. kochevnik:

73@Good Captain:

IF the christian nazis and mosque members were put in a FEMA compound with all their weaponry, the theoterrorists would self-destruct without any government interference.

Islam is simply the emerging counterpole to authoritarian, arrogant, totalitarian, imperialistic theology of the christian church. It is nature’s solution to christofascism. Why involve the government? Why not let the people decide?

Nov 13, 2009 - 10:56 pm 85. Gary McPhee:

kochevnik, did you arrive here via a time machine? what are you *talking* about??

Nov 13, 2009 - 11:30 pm 86. genghis:

The Brits toward the turn of the last century used to believe that it was bad form to spy on their adversaries ‘gentleman do not read other gentleman’s mail’. That was stupid policy then, and is a stupid policy now. Monitor every friggin mosque. And if they start spouting jihadist vitriol, shut them down. Extradite the hate mongers. Freedom of religion my ass. If they’re preaching the destruction of American civilization, throw the bastards out. If a six year old can be thrown out of elementary school for doodling a picture of a handgun, zero tolerance, you knw, surely there is no excuse for allowing the hate mongers a platform to foment our demise. Does this sound like rocket science to you. Are we paying our ‘leaders’ to act dumb?

Nov 14, 2009 - 5:19 am 87. shanghaicharlie:

Spindok,

“Maybe Isalm and Judaism are more similar in their legalistic approach to practice. The change between them came about through a long history too detailed to go into here.”

Oh wise one, please let us lowly peasants in on your vast knowledge. Change came about, Spindok, through a man called Mohammed, one of whose first acts was the cold-blooded mass murder of hundreds of Jews in Medina. Did you know that?

“Islam lived and often thrived in exclusion to Christian and post-christian culture.”

Really? Maybe the Byzantine Christians throughout the ME got it wrong. They kept getting in the way of those navel-gazing Muslims. The Spanish Christians, the Balkan Christians, the Hungarians, the Hindus and Buddhists got in the way of those retiring, stay-at-home Muslims too. There are a lot of post-Christians out there now.

Tell me oh wise one, what were the names of the Muslims who liberated Dachau? If you’ve forgotten the names of the Christians I suggest you go to the Allied cemeteries in Normandy for a start.

But you are right about one thing. If it weren’t for the oil the sheiks have under their medieval feet they’d still be riding camels and slaughtering kafirs with swords instead of learning how to fly large airplanes.

Nov 14, 2009 - 8:13 am 88. Unclejocko:

it is interesting to note how the media is handling this story. Apart from a few releases at the time, there is nary a word in my newspaper or the TV news. Not even Fox. Why? This story is big!

Nov 14, 2009 - 12:54 pm 89. Good Captain:

84. kochevnik:

Your apparent desire to reduce this into a Christian reaction vs. Islam, causes you to completely miss the intention behind my post. Violence has and can spring from any strongly held belief, religious or otherwise. For the record, I would favor the action reportedly taken in the article against any organization actively aiding and abetting and/or carrying out violent criminal activities – nominally Christian or otherwise. In fact, the prior use of this tactic that my post referenced was in fact directed against a nominally Christian white-racist hate group. I don’t care against whom the tactic is directed so long as the facts support the allegation that the organization is in fact legally liable.

Can you honestly say the same?

Nov 14, 2009 - 1:00 pm 90. Amy:

Most respectfully, Mr. Ledeen, I think the First Amendment issue is a red herring. It is well-settled law in this country that speech which incites violence or other criminal behavior is not protected. Conspiracies hatched by jihadis are not exempt from prosecution merely because the conspirators choose to hatch their plot in a mosque. Imams do not have a First Amendment freedom of religion right to incite members of their congregations to commit murder and other acts of violence. In fact, an imam who does so could be prosecuted as an accessory to, or even possibly a co-conspirator in, a subsequent crime committed by others who were inspired by his preaching to commit the crime. To hold otherwise would lead to the anomalous result of rendering terrorists immune from punishment as long as they hatched their plots inside a mosque. If the minister at some Aryan Nations “church” encouraged members of his flock to go out and kill Blacks and Jews, and some of them were inspired to do so as a direct result of his sermons, you’d better believe that that minister would be prosecuted, and no one would be agonizing over his First Amendment rights.

Nov 14, 2009 - 1:42 pm 91. Dwight:

And the difference between you and Jefferson Davis would be…what?”

Well, for starters we aren’t Democrat Party slave-owners who are hot to turn traitor so that we can own other human beings without interference from the feds.

That’s part of YOUR proud tradition.

Not ours.”

As far as I’m concerned, when you put it that way, then I’m a Republican too. But current Republicans (or should I say Righties? might be questioning Mr Lincoln on his refusal to let the Southron people “alter or abolish it.”

Nov 14, 2009 - 3:53 pm 92. Dwight:

#75 Dave S wrote Personally, I think that’s a little too bloodthirsty under the circumstances, but I certainly have no trouble understanding what it is you liberals did to force the Germans and Japanese to their knees.

And it must be a good thing, becuase you libtards are always telling us what great presidents Roosevelt and Truman were (even though they weren’t).

Being a centrist, I’ll settle for “Personally, I think that’s a little too bloodthirsty under the circumstances.” BUT under the circumstances, A LOT too bloodthirsty. The Governments of Germany and Japan did x,y, and z, and then so did we.

C’mon, if you can’t see that the current scenario is significantly different, then your eyes are closed. But then, you know that it is different. I don’t care if FDR and Truman were libtards or the opposite, whatever that would be.

You seem to feel a clear thread of connection between Lincoln Republicans and current Republicans and the same for Franklin Pierce Democrats, FDR, and Obama. Sorry, it just does not compute. American History with its shifting sands is a lot more complicated than that.

Nov 14, 2009 - 4:06 pm 93. kochevnik:

85@Gary McPhee:

Here’s something to get you oriented Gary: http://wikicompany.org/wiki/911:Vatican_&_Jesuits

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:15 pm 94. Bonnie:

Open Islam up for debate? You’re kidding, right? There’s only one way to stop them, and we all know what it is.

Nov 14, 2009 - 7:30 pm 95. shanghaicharlie:

kochevnik,

Wikipedia? That’s your authority? That ought to bring to our knees.

Nov 15, 2009 - 11:34 am 96. Shining City:

Reading your remarks sickens me with your hate freely dispenced on a faith practiced by millions of people peacefully. You or I may not believe as they do…but the Gov. taking these proporties are to protect Islam and too punish the guilty. Please do not mix the two.
Remember our own history of the Christany…where the Church burn so many at the stake for questioning the Church. Many where burned because they believed the Earth was round, for reading and publishing the Bible. If you were anti-Chatholci..Jew..or Muslin you were burned. These acts where committed by the Church at a time when the Church was the Authority but was losing power to the Monarchy.
Islam has given the world so much… books as we know it chapter and verse..before we only had scrolls.
Univerities and Colleges are from Islam..Science ..Medicine..Architecture…saving of the writtings from Greek and Roman Emprires…these things and so much more where handed down to us from Islam.
Today Islam is facing a cancer within it’s own faith…after centuries of rule by the Ottoman Emprire and the decades of Dictators in the 20th and early 21th Century. Islam past glories still stand today some built in the 13th century…libraries full of writing centuries old covered in dust unreaded..their faith griped with a stangle hold by radicals…or Imans who distort it’s teachings….people who have been threaten all of their lives by bullies using Islam..as we were in the 13th..14th..15th centuries by our own church.
As we once were in bondage so are they…Our Freedom has made it possible for us to worship as we please…Untill the Islamic people are free they will live in fear from those who disort their faith.

Nov 16, 2009 - 2:26 am 97. tekhelet16:

Re: your article “Feds move against mosques”, it seems Ibrahim cooper is making veiled threats when he says the actions “may send a negative message to muslims worldwide”. In other words, if we can’t do what we want we’ll make trouble.
We in UK already have this powerful fifth column; that is why these jihadis can demonstrate against our troops with impunity.
I had not realised, before the Fort Hood killings that you too have this islamic fifth column.
It seems your president has forgotten that the attacks on the World Trade Centres(which I had the priviledge of standing on in the 1970’s) was a declaration of war by muslims.

Nov 16, 2009 - 8:11 am

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