18 Comments

1. Litany:

There’s a great blog called Greater Surbiton run by Marko Atilla Hoare, a former Trotskyist and historian of south-eastern Europe. These two posts are particularly relevant to the post-Yugoslav revisionism and apologia common in a certain section of the left:

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/what-do-the-figures-for-the-bosnian-war-dead-tell-us/

http://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/2007/12/14/john-pilger-and-the-tasmanian-genocide/

It’s remarkable that people who put forward “atrocities were committed by all sides” as some kind of point are so eager to condemn the West for at times supporting Mujahideen against Serbs, but in any situation where Islamic extremists are opposed to the West, out come the ‘explanations’ of their behaviour.

Aug 6, 2008 - 6:11 am 2. massaraksh:

Danny Pearl, the investigave reporter for the WSJ uncovered the inconvenient truth about the Balkan Jihad and wrote about it:

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/pearl123199.htm

The Serbs were demonized while their no less cruel enemies were given a free pass. The involvment of the Jihadis from all over the world there wasn’t advertised at all, and the Bosnian Muslim leaders’ ties with them was downplayed. Even Aliya Azetbegovic’s pro-Nazi pas was ignored!

Clearly, the West made a decision to appease the Muslims by blindly supporting their co-religionists in Yugoslavia. If so, it didn’t work (it only whetted their appetites!) – many of the 9/11 “heroes” were veterans of this jihad and even used Bosnian issued papers to travel around.

It’s quite possible that Danny Pearl paid with his life for telling the truth about Jihad in the Balkans.

Aug 6, 2008 - 8:09 am 3. Ted Belman:

Re: Serbia Kosovo

Over a year ago, a number of people including Qui9gley and Francisco Gil White kept telling me that Serbia is the good guy and the Muslims with the aid of Britain and the US are the bad guys. This went contrary to my limited understanding so I embarked on a learning expedition.

Bottom line is there was no genocide . It is alleged that 8,000 people were killed, that bodies were stored in a freezer and Serbia set up extermination camps ( remember the picture of inmates behind barbed wire). All lies and proven lies..

As far as I can determine there were less than 2400 killed and this number may be less than 1000. This doesn’t mean they were murdered. Very few bodies have been discovered.

Here’s a few articles of the dozens that we posted under Kamm, Kosovo or Srebrenica. Search any of these terms on Israpundit. One of the best investigative reporters whose specialty is Serbia is Julia Gorin. She is amazing. You can also search here name on our site or on google.

Go here http://www.hirhome.com/

and scroll down to What really happened in Kosovo

The real Srebrecia Genocide
http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=232

For some reason google isn’t able to access our articles. I hope to have that corrected in a day. In the meantime search on Google “Julia Gorin”.

It took alsost a year for me to accept what I was learning because the whole says otherwise. You might liken it unto the conflict between the Arabs and the Jews. Try convincing the world that the Jews are the good guys.

Aug 6, 2008 - 8:23 am 4. David M:

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 08/06/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.

Aug 6, 2008 - 10:04 am 5. Fred Mecklenburg:

I hope your use of the word “believed” in this post doesn’t indicate that you are being swayed by this vicious Srebrenica Revisionism. Mr. Maher is known to me of old. He was shouting just as loudly (from Chicago) for Karadzic’s project before Srebrenica as afterward. He was always a great heckler and would-be intimidator of speakers, including Bosnian Serb women who chose to support a multi-ethnic Bosnia over one “ethnically-cleansed.”

The facts of Srebrenica have been established in the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, the International Court of Justice, and even through admission of the government of Republika Srpska.

There was a very moving exhibit, at the Lipa Gallery in Chicago, in 2005 to mark the tenth anniversary of the massacre. Chicago has a large Bosnian community. Beside the art works, this exhibit included many, many pictures of the disappeared men and boys of Srebrenica. If you live in the real world of real people the “proof” of the genocide at Srebrenica is not difficult to come by.

Aug 6, 2008 - 12:40 pm 6. Colonel Robert Neville:

Dear Phyllis, yes, it’s hard to slog through and get a picture of it. Though it seems clear that much happened across all, but the measure, the players and the true motives…often rise and fall in the murk. A coincidence as I’ve been thinking a lot about what’s the clear and true picture of this? I don’t want to believe a mere accepted or common belief and be had once again. I don’t mind facing the trut however terrible. Yep, I’ll follow up all the links from all commenters.

Thanks for this. Colonel Neville.

Aug 6, 2008 - 5:23 pm 7. Chip:

The “evidence of the genocide at Srebernica” was so inadequate that after years of effort to prove genocide in Milosevic’s trial he died of natural causes. Genocide doesn’t mean finding a mass grave or that there were many combat casualties. Even finding a number of teenage boys in a grave does not mean there was a genocide.

The Katyn Forest massacre carried out by the Soviets — but blamed on the Germans for decades — was a tragic event and a war crime, but not genocide.

Aug 6, 2008 - 11:07 pm 8. Litany:

Ted Belman – sure, the governments of the West were propagandistic and demonised the Serbs perhaps more than was reasonable, but it’s important to be clear. Supporting jihadists and mujahideen was a mistake – but what about the wider conflict?

I’ll put aside your Srebenica denial, since it’s nonsense. Consider the actual geopolitical situation. Bosnia – a tolerant multi-ethnic society and nation – was being torn apart by forces with racist ideologies who had a clear, expressed desire to ethnically cleanse regions of Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo and establish a Greater Serbia, and who were supported by the National Socialist regime in Belgrade.

If the West was so endlessly biased against Serbia, so pro-Muslim, why did it take them so long to act? Why did they spend so long playing down the conflict, and upholding an arms embarging against Bosnia, preventing it from arming itself adequately in the conflict? Why did they insist on negotiation with and appeasement Milosevic and Karadzic and their likes for so long? This doesn’t sound, to me, like a black-and-white anti-Serb, pro-”Muslim” policy.

Also keep in mind that a great deal of Bosnians who supported Bosnian unity were in fact Jews, Orthodox Christians and Catholics. How come Bosniaks get called “Muslims”, but no one calls the Serbs “Christians”? And no one calls the Croats “Catholics”? It’s especially silly given that Bosnian discourse and propaganda was decidedly secular, and the Bosnian government consistently expressed a commitment to a multi-ethnic, multi-faith Bosnia. Compare this to the Serb propaganda, referring to the Bosnian Muslims as “Turks” (that’s supposed to be pejorative, apparently), and the entanglement of church and state under Milosevic’s regime.

It’s possible to criticise aspects of the West’s policy (hopeless as it was) and still believe that it was fundamentally the right decision to support Bosnia against the inside and outside forces who were trying to tear it apart.

Aug 6, 2008 - 11:39 pm 9. Arius:

Since the late 1990’s I have spent literally thousands of hours studying information from every available source on the breakup of Yugoslavia. At the beginning I believed the reports that usually blamed the Serbs. Eventually I determined that most reports were slanted against the Serbs, and that in many cases they were the victims. Future historians will have a field day studying Muslim and Croat agitprop and disinformation behind the demonization of the Serbs.

Aug 6, 2008 - 11:42 pm 10. Felix Quigley:

I hope your use of the word “believed” in this post doesn’t indicate that you are being swayed by this vicious Srebrenica Revisionism.

Somebody above writes.

Ah, that phrase, Srebrenica revisionism, so much used by Harry’s Place, Kamm, Hoare, Cohen et al

But to revise Srebrenica there first must BE a Srebrenica.

On a whole series of artiles recently ther is total proof that this should be called now and forever THE GREAT SREBRENICA HOAX!

Okay Litany. Belman is a lawyer. You are making the accusation and charge.

It is the person making the charge that has to prove it.

Do not quote any statement from the Hague Tribunal because it was set up by NATO and financed by NATO, one of the partisans in the struggle.

Produce now your unbiassed proof and evidence, I emphasise unbiassed, the evidence from Muslims from Bosnia most definitely is not unbiassed, produce it now for Belman or else for now and for all eternity shut your mouth about this Srebrenica Massacre

Aug 7, 2008 - 9:23 am 11. Felix Quigley:

We on http://www.4international.wordpress.com have went into this in great detail using the unbiassed dutch Report and we find that there is NO evidence that the Serb army murdered one single Muslim on taking Srebrenica.

But we also approach it historically and ask who was Elija Izetbegovic.

During the Holocaust Izetbegovic was holding JOINT MEMBERSHIP of the Nazi Muslim Brotherhood with none other than the Nazi Hajj Amin el Hussein, the main carrier out of the Holocaust in the Balkans. They were working together as joint members of that Nazi organization during the Holocaust.

The Holocaust of the Serbs DID NOT STOP.

1980 was only 35 years later and Izetbegovic never did change in one IOTA.

That is the whole point of this. The Serbs of both Milosevic and Karadic as well as Seselj were facing precisely that Holocaust, not again in the sense it had never stopped.

Izetbegovic and his party are the continuator of the Hiolocaust.

Just as is Fatah and Hamas, Yassin and Hamas, Hizbullah and the Iranian Fascists.

That is why the American Israeli leaders had to be duped by the US Imperialists like Holbrook.

And it is why Jews and Serbs today MUST unite together and see through these liars.

Aug 7, 2008 - 9:44 am 12. John Peter Maher:

“Fred Mecklenburg” [sic] wrote “Mr. Maher is known to me of old. He was shouting just as loudly (from Chicago) for Karadzic’s project before Srebrenica as afterward.” — Where and when? — The “Srebrenica massacre” is never mentioned until months after the alleged event. Do CNN and Madeleine Albright use Pony Express?

“He [Maher] was always [DATES?]a great heckler and would-be intimidator of speakers, including Bosnian Serb women [sic] who chose to support a multi-ethnic Bosnia over one ethnically-cleansed.”

Nowhere did Maher [that's me] ever address “Bosnian Serb women [?] who chose to support a multi-ethnic Bosnia [?].” In 1992 Bosnia’s Muslims and Croats voted to secede from multi-ethnic Yugoslavia. Serbs boycotted the vote because they opposed the break-up of multi-ethnic Yugoslavia. “Greater Serbia” was Austro-Hungary’s precursonr to the Blair-Bush WMD. Serbs wanted to live in one state, with all the other nationalities, — Yugoslavia, not a “pure” Serb state. Ethnically pure staes in the former Yugoslavia are the fascist Catholic statelets of Slovenia and Croatia is a reality.

The few Jews in today’s Sarajevo who have sought restitution of property expropriated by the communists have been informed that return can only be effected with the consent of their Muslim neighbors.

Contrary to CNN and NY Times fabrications, Muslim snipers at the Sarajevo Holiday Inn in May 1992 fired on a crowd chanting “Volimo te, Jugoslavijo / we love you, Yugoslavia”. Izetbegovic’s program was to Islamize secular Muslims and re-build an Islamic state stretching from Morocco to Indonesia. Read his “Islamic Declaration” (1970, re-issued 1990.)

Video footage shows Jusuf “Juka” Prazina, street thug who became a Muslim militia commander, shooting at the crowd. Serbs fled to the hills.

Ad hominem attack, such as this one by “Mecklenburg”, besides being a logical fallacy, is an attempt to change the subject, a straw grasped by an accuser who has lost the argument. Let the reader here decide who is heckling, “Mecklenburg” [sic] or Maher. I use my true name. How about our “Mecklenburg”?

Aug 14, 2008 - 12:25 am 13. John Peter Maher:

“Litany” asks “How come Bosniaks get called “Muslims”, but no one calls the Serbs “Christians”? And no one calls the Croats “Catholics”?” His question reveals that “Litany” knows nothing about the Balkans.

Since 1992 “Bosnian” has come to designate Islamized Slavs of Bosnia. Previously the meaning was any Bosnian, “Latin” (Catholic), “Serb ~ Old Believer” (Orthodox), “Turk” (Muslim).

Non-specialists often state that “Turk” ia a disparaging term for a Muslim. This is not true. All ethnic terms can be disparaging when it’s a matter of the alien.

When Bosnian Muslims use the term “Srbin” they mean Orthodox Christian. When the Ottomans were in the saddle, every subject, regardless of language or ethnic descent. was a “Turk”. Such is the case in Western parlance too, as in “Il Turco in Italia”. Such was any Ottoman subject, whether Greek, Circassian or whatever. One young Sarajevo Muslim once told us “volim Turke, nego Srbe / — I like Muslims better than Orthodox Christians.”

Compare “Palestinian”: in the 1930s this was used for Jews in or from the Holy Land. “Irish” in 18th century English was anyone — Anglican Dean Jonathan Swift e.g., or Presbyterian or Catholic in Ireland. –Swift: “Burn everything English but their coal.”

See the NY Times for 29 June 1914.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E06E3D9113FE633A2575AC2A9609C946596D6CF

Aug 14, 2008 - 12:33 am 14. John Peter Maher:

Knowing-1 and Knowing-2. Epistemology.
The word KNOW is used in different senses. Either one “knows” — from prophets — e.g. that G-d gave Moses the tablets of the Law on Mt Sinai, or — from the Evangelists — that Jesus rose from the dead and will come to judge the living and the dead. — This KNOWING is faith. Faith is blind, i.e. our own eyes did not bring us the knowledge, but comes through the ear.

I know e.g. through my own senses and memory that I [J P Maher, my true name] talked with Dr Radovan Karadzic in Pale (Serb Sarajevo) in April 1994 and that I talked in February 2006 with President Slobodan Milosevic at the ICTY in the Hague about the testimony I was to give in his defense on the hoax of Dubrovnik’s “destruction”, for, to check out the media reports, I had gone to Dubrovnik on 24 March 1992 and filmed the Old City. Either it had not been destroyed or it was totally re-built in the 3 months since its total destruction. –I never testified.

I “know/believe” –on good authority — that Milosevic died in his cell. So, I never got to testify, although the “court” did get to see my film in December 1993. I do not know if there is any connection besides chance between my imminent testimony and his death.

Soon I’ll post my memo on my meeting with the other Dr Dabic, i.e. Professor of History Vojin Dabic, who was kidnapped, tortured in Vukovar in 1997, to extort the location of his archive on Croatian and Muslim atrocities against Serb, Roma and others from 1991.

Next, I’ll also post the information on rapes that I have from obstetrician-gynecologist and psychiatrist on the rape in Croatia of Serb women — and men in 1991-92. Dr Ljubica Toholj told me of her interviews with, not hear-say about, victims.

One young woman rape victim who had agreed to talk with me and my colleagues (from Canada, one a Jew, one a feminist of Polish descent) backed out at the last minute, distraught because other victims had made fun of a TV interview she had given.

Dr Toholj told me that the information she sent to the Hague was rejected because the Serbs involved were not represented by a recpgnized state. They belonged to Yugoslavia whaich was de-recognized by Bush-Baker, Helmut Kohl, the Vatican, and the “West”, a.k.a “the international community”. Information on the rape of Serb victrims was sent to Cherif (Sharif) Bassiouni of DePaul University, which he claims “went missing”. And more than once.

Aug 15, 2008 - 7:05 am 15. John Peter Maher:

BY “subject” is meant a Muslim subject of the Sultan. Non-Muslims were slaves and dhimmis. The law for them was “Kanun i Raya” -Law for the Livestock”. It closely resembled England’s Penal Laws for the Irish.

Aug 15, 2008 - 11:08 am 16. John Peter Maher:

Official UN document:
Raped Serbian women in Bosnia
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/Bosnia/rapes/raped-serbs-5.html

SECURITY COUNCIL
Distribution: GENERAL
A/47/813
S/24991
18 December 1992
ORIGINAL: English

Depositions of Serbian women given to the State Commission for War Crimes

Page #14 and 15 of the above document…
Deposition made by S.K. from Sarajevo, Belesici, on 23 November 1992 at the Gynaecology-Obstetrics Clinic in Belgrade
I was born 7 February 1972 in Sarajevo, where I lived until the outbreak of the war. When it broke out, I was taken to prison last April at the time when the roadblocks began to be set up.
I completed elementary school and the high hairdressers’ course.
I worked in a private hairdresser’s lounge, “Buba-Mara”, and was a part-time student of the Faculty of Physical Education (I completed two years).
While I was returning home from my job, I was stopped by four armed members of the green berets [Muslims] who pushed me into a car, blindfolded me and drove me to a basement (I do not know where it was located). When we arrived there, I was put, together with a 16-year-old girl named Jelena, [Serbian name] in a small partitioned corridor having no windows or ventilation.
On the first night, 12 men wearing black overalls, which served as a kind of their uniforms, came. They first molested Jelena and then forced themselves upon me. I did not know any of them; I only heard that they called one of them “Alibaba”. He tore all my clothes and, since I was virgo in tacta, he was very brutal, he slapped me and made me have both oral sex with him and intercourse. Then the other two came who pinned me down on the floor while Ismet Bajramovic, known as Celo (I later found out what his name was), led the rape. He was the leader of the group. He has an organization of his own which still operates in Sarajevo. He assaulted me first, then the others took their run and the whole ordeal was repeated throughout the night: I had to have oral and intercourse with them. I found out his name during my 25-day detention with Jelena in that corridor. Jelena stayed behind when I left. As I could see later on, it was a smaller apartment building which had a basement where the two of us were detained. The basement space next to us resounded with cries and screams of other women. During those 25 days I was there, I was repeatedly abused day in day out; both of us were forced to have oral sex and intercourse. All those who did that to us said the Serbs were doing the same to their Moslem sisters. This was their pretext, a justification for what they did.
On my last, 25th day there, Ismet Bajramovic-Celo came and told me he had to let me go because of the strings pulled on my behalf, advising me to forget all about what happened to me there for my own sake.
The husband of a friend of mine, a Moslem, used his connections to find out where I was and get me out. He told me that the building I had been in was in Pofalici [suburb of Sarajevo]. Everything has been pulverized and there is no Serb house left in that suburb now.
I left in the same manner I was brought in – blindfolded. They drove me to Kosevsko Brdo, a Moslem-controlled sector of Sarajevo, opened the door and threw me out. I walked to a friend, Emir Tufekcic [a Muslim name], whose wife Radmila is a Serb.
Since I was mentally disturbed, My friend Emir Tufekcic, who was not a member of the green berets at the time but had to comply with a work order, and his wife Radmila helped me to go to the psychiatric clinic “Kosevo” in Kosevo, to see a Dr. Haris, whose surname I do not know. I found out what his name was while I was treated at the clinic: they called him Haris there. I was hospitalized for 28 days. Having left the clinic, I stayed with Emir and Radmila Tufekcic who hid me in their home.
After a month I felt sickness, I vomited, which indicated pregnancy. I went again to “Kosevo” clinic [under Muslim control] intending to have an abortion. They said that I could have it only if I said to the journalists that I was raped by Serbs. I indignantly refused, since I could not besmirch my people, the religion I belong to, and myself. They have no humanity or compassion; they salute each other with “Selam alekum and merhaba”. So, I decided: if there was no chance for me to have an abortion, I would give birth to the child and strangle it. I hope one can understand such thoughts in such moments. The child was not a fruit of love; I would feel only hatred and rage for it and it would always remind me of the awful and horrible things I went through.
I was still with my friends Emir and Radmila Tufekcic, who fed me and gave me clothes, since I did not have any clothes of my own. There was no chance for me to pass to the Serb-controlled territory. I was with them until 15 November (midnight). They helped me to be included in the list of people to be evacuated to Serbia. The list began to be compiled in July, but it was not until November that the convoy of evacuees left for Serbia. The convoy departed Sarajevo on 15 November and reached Belgrade on 17 November 1992. I arrived in Belgrade at midnight, where I slept and a day later I was admitted to the Gynaecology-Obstetrics Clinic, where I gave birth.
Deposition taken by: Milica Dunic S.K. Senior Stenographer at the Federal Assembly
Deposition made by: S.K.

NEXT:
[ Deposition of another Serbian woman ]

BACK TO:

[ UN document on raped Serbian women in Bosnia ]

The truth belongs to us all.
Feel free to download, copy and redistribute.
Last revised: March 05, 1997

Aug 25, 2008 - 5:57 pm 17. Ida:

It was the Serbian women who first reported on organized rape cases and sent documentation to the UN Security council in early fall 1992.

Before this the Muslim and mass media made no such claims. But after the Serbian reports, the Muslims (and mass media), without any documentation or evidence whatsoever, claimed a huge number of rape victims of like 50,000.

There was no increase in the birthrate in Bosnia to back up the claims of so many women raped and made pregnant.

The Muslims have never brought forth any DNA evidence of rape or rape camps against the Serbian soldiers, they don’t have any of the se rape camp babies either.

Furthermore, the UN and reporters never discovered any of these rape camps. There would immediately be girls brought to the hospital and evidence gathered if such was true.

The alleged Bosnian Muslim rape victims who go around promoting their cause and working with others are propagandists.

Bet not one of them has a rape baby. Bet not one of them has a scar even or the slightest sign of torture.

People can say what they want and there was big motive and making that propaganda which served them and the west well.

The true rape camp victims were the Serb women who’s documentation is of higher quality than the over-hyped Muslim claims.

Their rape babies exist only in fiction and propaganda.

They even made a movie about it based on the propaganda because they could find no real case.

The film was “Grbavica” and by the way the Muslim assassin group Seve/Sevas practiced shooting elderly Serbian women there.

Grbavica was a Serb held section of Sarajevo. The Serbs lived and controlled a part of Sarajevo and the frontlines ran through the middle of the city near to the infamous Holiday Inn.

The frontlines were essentially the same throughout the war until the end when Dayton gave it to Muslim control.

The fact that the front lines were stable is a clue that the Serbs mainly wanted to hold on to their part and prevent the Muslims from swamping it.

It was just as damaged as the Muslim side (yet neither was near as bad as the Muslim side of Mostar shelled by Croat gunners).

A Canadian reporter visiting in 1993 noted how the Muslim side have heavy traffic, while the Serb side was extremely light due to fuel sanctions.

What kind of a siege is it when there are ample and plentiful supplies of fuel continually coming in?

The Bosnian Muslim roasted Serbs alive and there are pictures of some of those blackened bodies which are fully named and identified.

The Bosnian Muslims decapitated Serbs and filmed these.

Their movies of killing Serbs in gruesome fashion are popular at Muslim shops.

Read recently that at the trial of the Fort Dix Six (which includes Kosovo Albanians) that they have videos of people being decapitated. Makes me wonder if they are from Bosnia or Kosovo – though they could be from Chechnya.

The New York Times ran articles in the 1980’s on the Kosovo Albanians threatening and attacking Serbs which pressured them to leave.

The term ethnic cleansing was used in the ’60s and ’70s to describe the gradual Serb exodus in Kosovo.

Now in the news there’s report of Kosovo and Turkish doctors doing some illegal organ harvesting there.

Carla del Ponte even wrote about kidnapped Serbs (and trafficked eastern European women) having their organs forcibly removed after being held in camps in Kosovo and Albania. Its looking more and more true as a witness is said to have mentioned the very doctor who’s been arrested for taking the kidney out of the Turk:

Two Kosovo doctors detained over organ transplants

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE4A466A20081105

Nov 8, 2008 - 12:12 am 18. Mario:

Here is one link that contains many information about Srebrenica and related topics from various sources:

http://www.srebrenica-report.com/

Apr 24, 2009 - 4:33 am

Write a Comment

Name:	(required, displayed)
Email:	(required, not publicized)
URL:	(optional, displayed)
Comments: