A religious Muslim feminist and the Morgantown Mosque
Asra Q. Nomani is best known for many things. A former Wall Street Journal reporter, she is also the author of Standing Alone: An American Woman’s Struggle for the Soul of Islam. Nomani is a religious Muslim feminist who organized the first-ever woman-led, mixed-gender Islamic prayer group in New York City in 2005, and who made a good faith effort to bring her hometown mosque in Morgantown, West Virginia into the twenty-first century, both in terms of women and tolerance.
Nomani, born in Bombay but raised in Morgantown, is also the last friend whom Daniel Pearl saw before he was kidnapped, held captive, and beheaded on video. Pearl was staying at Nomani’s rented home in Pakistan. Currently, Nomani teaches journalism at Georgetown University where she co-leads the Pearl Project, which will publish their discoveries about what really happened to Daniel Pearl.
Nomani will now also be known as the subject of a documentary about her struggle for the soul of Islam, which is airing tonight — June 15 — on PBS at 10 p.m. EST. “The Mosque in Morgantown” is the latest feature in the America At a Crossroads series.
Nomani was jolted awake by Pearl’s beheading. In the wake of this tragedy, she chose to become a single mother and went on hajj to Mecca where she experienced a tremendous spiritual “high.” Nomani saw that men and women were not separated at Mecca’s Masjid al-Haram. When she returned to America, she wanted to bring her own mosque into the 21st century, to transform it into a woman-friendly, “family-centered Islam,” and not a hardhearted “boy’s club.” She also wanted to moderate — if not eliminate — the forces of hatred within Islam that lead to kidnappings, Jew-hatred, suicide terrorism, and jihad.
Pearl’s beheading forced Nomani to reexamine Islam. Those who had kidnapped Pearl were militant, religious Muslims who believed that their violent acts were sanctioned by the Qu’ran. Nomani resolved to take a more activist role in the “battle of ideas, the war of ideas.”
She wanted to create something that may not yet exist: “A more inclusive and tolerant Islam in the world.”
Nomani is precisely the kind of ally that both the West — and the East — urgently need. In addition to other important ex-Muslims (Nonie Darwish, Wafa Sultan) and secular Muslims (Ibn Warraq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali), there is now Nomani: a religious Muslim feminist who wants to redeem, reform, and uplift her religion, both as a feminist and as a devout Muslim.
Upon her return home, Nomani was horrified by what she found in the Morgantown mosque. A harsh Arab and Saudi Wahhabi influence had taken over her childhood mosque — a place that her father had established in the early 1980s. A rude man barked at her to take the back door entrance. This rudeness extended to other women as well.
Finally, Nomani, her mother and a young female relative walked in through the front door and took a place together behind the men’s section. But the sermons became more hateful. “To love the Prophet is to hate those who hate him.” One man, seen on camera in the film, is very dismissive of Nomani. He says: “She wants to bend the rules her way but the laws are not human laws.”
However, as the film documents, extremists — mainly Arabs — led by one rather physically and verbally violent Egyptian, Hany Ammar, took over. At that point, Nomani, says on camera: “I began hearing really scary sermons. An unchaste woman is worthless. The West is on a bad path. We must hate those who hate us. Women should be silent in a mosque. Jews are descendants of apes and pigs. Men should surround (Nomani) and scare her.”
Ammar says on camera: “I pray to Allah that you be punished. May Allah get revenge for Ammar. He physically attacks a young Muslim moderate man — one hears, but does not see this attack. Ammar’s wife Mona is even more conservative, more aggressive than he is. She minces no words in expressing her contempt, even hatred for Nomani. She, like certain kinds of religious women, is even more zealous in upholding the patriarchal status quo, more aggressively empowered to strike down any other woman who dares challenge male supremacy or Islamic gender apartheid. This is a phenomenon that I discuss in my book Woman’s Inhumanity to Woman.
Ammar tries to ban Nomani from the mosque.
Nomani began writing about what was happening in her mosque in the media, which did not further endear her to them. Predictably, they accused her of only wanting media attention.
One soft-spoken young man on camera says: “Had (Nomani) gone about this in the right way (working with moderates like myself), we could have made ten years progress in ten months.” However, Nomani’s mother insists that “the extremists will never change.”
Together with some other Muslim feminists, Nomani then crafted an Islamic Bill of Rights for Women which they actually posted at her mosque. Included are the following rights: that women have “an Islamic right to enter through the main door;” an “Islamic right to pray … without being separated by a barrier;” “an “Islamic right to hold leadership positions.”
Nomani is quoted on camera: “We are going to change the world starting here.” Also, in her travels, Nomani began a woman’s section on the main mosque floor, a place behind the men where the women could unobtrusively hear and see the prayers and sermons.
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65 Comments
1. joeblough:The following from the great Sufi Al-Ghazali himself:
Full treatement at:
Bostom: Sufism Without Camouflage
One is presented with the paradoxical fact that people can be “soulful” and at the same time blood thirsty and coldly evil.
Have a look. Judge for yourself.
============
I expect that Nomani will be facing a steeper climb than her non-mohammedan feminist cousins.
It is far easier for the mohammedan theologian to make the case that the oppression of women is consistent with the letter and spirit of the canonical texts than it is for other religious figures, however old fashioned they may be.
In fact, however contentious it may be for women to participate as men do in the rituals of other religions, it is a 50/50 shot that Nomani might be assassinated for her prostletizing on behalf of mohammedan women.
It will be a long slow process and fraught with mortal peril.
Jun 14, 2009 - 10:07 pm 2. Joel Katz:Thank you for this insightful post.
For readers interested in reading more about the issues of religion and state in Israel, please visit:
Religion and State in Israel
Religion and State in Israel is not affiliated with any organization or movement.
Jun 14, 2009 - 10:36 pm 3. MiamaMan:Very interesting article.
This kind of moderate approach to Islam is the only hope left – however small – that some reform can be brought into this hateful “religion”.
But your article, however hopeful, had another effect on me. One that almost made me vomit. The nausea of realizing how far advance this hate, these prejudices, this incredibly backward system of beliefs, has taken hold in Good Old America. The realization that is not only in Morgantown, West Virginia, that people, immigrants, come here invited in good faith, and instead of adapting to the Law of the Land, spew hate, hate their hosts, deride them as “inferior”, effect backwards societal behaviors that if not outright illegal in America, had been left behind long ago.
For, however discriminatory other systems of beliefs, like Judaism or Hinduism, were or are still on women in their countries of origin, the level of violence implicit in Islam is unique. With Islam, far is not the honor killings, the beatings, the verbal violence conducing to both. Besides, if the Israeli Supreme Court did this or that in Israel, let us not bring that here. The US is not Israel.
It is a failure of America as a society that this is allowed. And it will continue, fester, and grow. All these hateful Imams should be deported without pity. Those who come here to hate us and try to change us should be, simply, given the boot.
Of all the Asian immigrants to the US, the Indian Hindus are by far the most productive, quieter, group. There is no Hindu Indian mafia. Hinduism, the most tolerant and peaceful religion on earth, a faith that has accepted religious refugees in India for thousands of years, without judging them, and allowing them to prosper in India among Hindus, has much to offer in style, culture, tolerance, wisdom, Yoga spiritual practice, manners.
Jun 15, 2009 - 5:51 am 4. Greenconsciousness:Has anyone else noticed the blackout on news from Iran — THE MOST SIGNIFICANT NEWS SINCE THE us INTERVENTION? The press was kicked out only today after reports of them being beaten and while detained seeing masses of Iran’s protesters tied in stress positions, obviously waiting for torture.
The people who own our media mostly Arab/Saudi stockholders, have minimized the coverage of the protests even before today. And this revolution for democracy is monumental. We ought to be arming the people – ought to be sending in the women’s army we have marginalized to the camps at the border who Bush bombed. Now is the time to help anyway you can!
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,986213,00.html
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/mhviran
http://www.iranwomen.net/
Jun 15, 2009 - 8:05 am 5. Mary Madigan:Thanks for publicizing Asra Nomani’s heroic efforts to reform her faith. There are so few genuine reformers out there, but hers is definitely a voice worth supporting!
Jun 15, 2009 - 8:43 am 6. Pajamas Media » Asra Nomani: Fighting For the Soul of Islam:[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]
Jun 15, 2009 - 9:21 am 7. Delia:Sorry. I have no hope for people who are indoctrinated by hatred and I fear for the world that thinks an evil, cruel, inhumane belief system can somehow be ‘tamed’ or ‘westernized’.
Jun 15, 2009 - 9:30 am 8. arhooley:Phyllis, Nomani is following the familiar path I’ve discovered in talking to these Muslim feminist reformers. It always leads to one thing: intellectual doom.
In the end they’re always left wordless, befuddled over the undeniably anti-woman SCRIPTURE of Islam. Never mind what the mosque has become under misguided men; the scripture is undeniable. Clearly, Allah does not favor women, and he has ordered them into subjection by men. Yes, there’s always some other verse one can point to as a counter, but that only worsens the matter as it makes Allah appear self-contradictory, or it leaves the resolution up to mere humans, and at that point it might as well not be the revealed word of God but anything any human made up.
Ultimately, these women are going to have to either reject the divine origin of Islam, rebel against Allah, or satisfy themselves with the “Allah is mysterious” surrender and find a way to teach their daughters that several things are simultaneously true: 1) girls must respect themselves, and 2) it’s okay if their husbands beat them, and their word is properly worth only half that of a man’s in a court of law.
Jun 15, 2009 - 9:44 am 9. Asra Nomani: Fighting for the Soul of Islam « Northern Virginia, Richmond, VA and DC Metro Chapter:[...] Fighting for the Soul of Islam Filed under: In the News — waltjr @ 12:55 PM Source: Phyllis Chesler H/T: Jeffrey [...]
Jun 15, 2009 - 9:56 am 10. Susan Everett:The Mosque in Morgantown will show on Ch 9 in Seattle at 10 PM on Mon 6-22-09 per Ch 9 website.
Jun 15, 2009 - 10:03 am 11. Shoshana Rubin:I sincerely thank Asra Nomani for trying to modernize Islam and I appreciate Chesler’s and PBS’s efforts to showcase the very worthy struggle but when all is said, I cannot figure out why a modern, educated, self-confident and highly moral woman would continue to be Muslim. It just doesn’t make sense to me.
Jun 15, 2009 - 10:07 am 12. David Thomson:“I expect that Nomani will be facing a steeper climb than her non-mohammedan feminist cousins.”
Traditional Islam is inherently anti-intellectual. Learning is somehow interpreted as anti-God—unless one is mastering the Koran. And even here, the emphasis is often placed on repeating words in a language one is unable to comprehend! Muslims are supposed to be content with the intellectual advancement achieved by the eighth century. The mainstream interpretations of Judaism, Protestantism and Catholicism are less hampered by this mindset. Islam’s eventual Martin Luther will have their hands filled.
Islamic anti-intellectualism may have a lot to do with the high number of terrorists possessing advanced degrees behind their name. They probably feel a sense of guilt for having acquired an education. In their heart of hearts, only a dumb Muslim can be a good Muslim. An intelligent Muslim is something of a heretic.
Jun 15, 2009 - 10:46 am 13. fnord:Thank you for a sane and interesting article. In these days of hatred, its like water in the desert to this atheistic reader. Unfortunately the uglyness seeps through in some of the comments, and again remind me of how “the Jew” got treated in the 30s.
“the level of violence implicit in Islam is unique. With Islam, far is not the honor killings, the beatings, the verbal violence conducing to both.”
Umm, have you checked out the murder-rates per Capita of the US vs, say, Indonesia and Malaysia? Or the number of executions of criminals? Umm, or the legalization of torture? Or maybe, the number of Iraqi civilians that went down during the US “liberation”? When seen from abroad, its not exactly Dubai that comes across as leading a violent culture.
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:01 am 14. Banned by Huffpo:She better be checking her six on a regular basis. Looks to me like she could end up just like Daniel Pearlman if she isn’t very careful.
Sadly, any effort to “modernize” Islam is doomed to fail.
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:10 am 15. Old Soldier:Unfortunately I have to agree with arhooley. The Christian scriptures leave plenty of room for debate about these questions. The Torah had female heroines but not the Koran.
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:13 am 16. Colette:What more can be said that you didn’t already, so eloquently, say yourself? The misogyny, the patriarchy, the hatred and violence are all inherently built into the scriptures of Islam—a statement that is not “Islamophobic” but sadly, quite sadly, true. That is not to say that writings of other religions are not anti-women or frighteningly barbaric in their treatment of women—quite the contrary. There are an overwhelming number of moments in the Bible’s Deuteronomy that suggest stoning a woman as the only way to come to terms with such issues as a rape—and yet Christians and others who follow this book still believe in the Western court systems and legal code. Rape victims are brought to hospitals, they are not murdered. Judeo-Christians do not apply this old world thought to the 21st century..I cannot seem to find any account of a stoning or flogging in the US committed as a result of dedication to the Bible. Where Islam stands alone is in its zealous fanatics who follow these words, who kill their sisters, daughters, mothers and wives gladly believing they are following some sort of higher, moral code and achieving an honor in their actions. How do you modernize actions/thoughts that are thought to be legitimized by God? I applaud Nomani in her courage—it is going to take more activists like her who are Muslim themselves to reclaim Islam in a way that it is no longer a weapon. Is it possible? I am not sure, but I am eager to them try.
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:53 am 17. Joe Bison:Problem is anyone straying from the path
is not recognized as being Muslim. As
a movement take Ismailism. A lot more
tolerance and women’s rights there but
rejected by mainstream Islam including
the Shiites from which it came.
The followers of the Aga Khan are progressive
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:55 am 18. MiamaMan:but rejected. Just talk to any mainstream
Shiite or Sunni anywhere. At one time
this sect was pretty fearsome.
13. fnord:
“the level of violence implicit in Islam is unique. With Islam, far is not the honor killings, the beatings, the verbal violence conducing to both.”
Since you are quoting from what I wrote, let me answer you:
Have you heard the expression “comparing apples to oranges”?
What the comparison between the murder rates per-capita of the US and Indonesia or Malaysia has to do with this discussion? or “the number of execution of criminals”? Every society in the world, as far as we know, has a penal system, a police, jails and prisons, some uphold the death penalty for certain crimes, others don’t.
However, there is only one system of law in the world, unique to a system of beliefs, a religion, Islam, called Sharia Law, where women are second-class citizens, where honor-killings are rampant, abetted, and accepted without punishments, where beating your wife is common daily occurrence and a woman’s word is worth that of half of a man’s, where public beheadings for adultery are still common, where stoning of human beings of both sexes is the law of the land, the man buried up to the waist, the woman up to the shoulders, where acid is thrown in girls eyes to prevent them from going to school, where homosexuals “do not exist” (as according to the President of Iran), and when they exist are hung to death by the neck.
So, go ahead and compare that. One evil do not condone another.
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:55 am 19. Steve:This is ridiculous. What is Nomani going to do?
Is She going to delete the Hadiths, the horrific deeds of Muhammad? Islam says that Muhammad murdered, maimed, beheaded, raped, enslaved and had sex slaves. That is WHAT ISLAM SAYS. NOT US.
Is she going to scrap the Sira and most of the Koran?
What nonsense. Islam is what it is. Unfortunately 99% of Amricans never took the time to read or study the Islamic texts. Read the moronic post by fnord. He is clueless.
Islam can not be changed. It is however being “reformed” as we speak. Muslims are going back to Muhammad and his first followers to follow “Allah’s” immutable word and his horrific deeds.
Jun 15, 2009 - 12:12 pm 20. Marc Malone:Nomani is on a fool’s errand. There is nothing in Islam worth saving. The whole thing is rotten to the core. Its whole purpose is to justify the execution of one’s basest instincts. There exists no love; only hate.
She should be converted to Christianity, then lead others to the same end. After all, that’s what she is really attempting to do: instill Christian beliefs and values into a virulently anti-Christian belief system. By the time you completely reform Islam into a civilized form, you’ll have turned it into Christianity. Just skip all that, and just convert.
It’s funny that she can’t see that the values she holds dear are based on Judeo-Christian values, not Muslim ones. Of course, our Liberals are the same way. They espouse tolerance, but embrace intolerant Leftism. They espouse liberty and prosperity, but embrace oppressive Statism. But, they’ll make it work, this time. She’ll make Islam work, this time. Madness.
Jun 15, 2009 - 12:26 pm 21. WR Jonas:.To understand the soul of Islam is to look into the very evil soul of Satan himself.
Jun 15, 2009 - 12:48 pm 22. JOE KAFFIR:He is the father of murder ,lies and destruction. He comes after those who are defenseless like a roaring lion seeking those he may devour.
Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s book Infidel shows that Islam is a vindictive , vengeful and murderous religion. Reform is nonsense. It is foolish to assume one committed woman can alter the impetus of millions of hate and rage filled fanatics.
Stop indulging this delusional woman, Asra Nomani in her wild izlamic fantasies. She is a murtad, a heretic. She does not represent izlam in any way shape or form and never will. Trying reform izlam is like trying to reform hitler’s nazism. Does anyone remember the now defunct: “hitlerjugen against the Nuremberg laws”?
Jun 15, 2009 - 1:16 pm 23. Ester:Her goodwill and good causes are kuffar, haram. They are all anti-izlamic. However in her childish beliefs, she can never let go of allah and the beast mohamed. Like the empathic nazi camp guard who really feels sorry for the Jews, he can not let go of his god, hitler.
Thanks for this, as usual, great article. How sad and pathetic that she will always be an endangered woman.
Jun 15, 2009 - 2:44 pm 24. Morton Doodslag:When is the documentary showing in Los Angeles? I can’t find it anywhere in the PBS program.
This is great news! With Nomani added to their ranks, suddenly the population of genuine moderate Muslims* has increased by at least 10-20% globally. With other highly syncretistic practitioners, we will surely see things begin to improve for everyone. Still, I’d like to see her attitude embraced by at least 20-30 other Muslims before I get too excited. Nevertheless, only 8 years after 9/11, it’s bracing to see Muslims in America have made such brave, immense progress in such a short span of time. The mat is a bit ominous, since at the current rate of reform of Muslims (I put the number at about one per year emerging in America alone!) it will take another 2-3 million years before the process is complete.
But why let little details like that get in the way you keep championing these exciting trends, Phyllis!
*for my own idiosyncratic reasons I don’t consider Muslims who spend most of their time lecturing “infidels” about the peacefulness of Islam to be moderate in the slightest.
Jun 15, 2009 - 3:44 pm 25. David W. Lincoln:One question: does this reformer disavow the Pact of Omar when Muslims deal with adherants
of other faith traditions, or those who adhere
to no faith tradition?
If so, there is hope for progress.
Otherwise, time and effort is being wasted.
Jun 15, 2009 - 3:50 pm 26. c:Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perizzite and the Hivite and the Jebusite. Take heed to yourself, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land where you are going, lest it be a snare in your midst. But you shall destroy their altars, break their sacred pillars, and cut down their wooden images (For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.)
Jun 15, 2009 - 4:48 pm 27. Brian:Exodus, Chapter 34, verses 11-14
Excellant post once again.Another FEMALE freedom fighter comes foward.Im sorry whats that Phyllis?You critisized Israel?Good.More proof positive that anti-zionists are talking out the waaazzooo!
Jun 15, 2009 - 5:04 pm 28. c:I posted the bible passage from Exodus and mistakenly submitted it before writing the explanation. We sit back and talk about how the Koran teach violence and terror.Exodus prompts followers of God destroy the religiuos icons of non-jews and drive them out. Take a look at how Moses says to kill every male, little one included, kill every woman who has know a man, and keep the women who have not to for themselves in Number 13 -17.
“And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, which came from the service of the war. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
What’s my point? A person can find justification to kill by reading the Bible just as they can by reading the Koran. I guess this makes sense seeing as the word Allah means the one and only God, and Islam was born from the New Testiment and the Torah. Soem people are quick to pull out the negatives in Islam but show a real lack of understanding for what is written in their own books. These are not the only passages. There are stories of Israelite soldiers being orders to kill every man, woman, child and beast of an “enemy,” old testament prophets taking hundreds of wives, and theivery, con jobs…
I learned that if I live in a glass house, then I should not throw bricks. I condemn the behavior of Islamic extremists, but I will not judge the religion of Islam too harshly, because I can find pleanty of evidence in the Bible I read that exposes equally disturbing behaviors. The way I see it, we need to learn to look at the Bible, Torah, Koran, etc as divinely inspired books that were written by men with prejudices and short coming. Hence we must use common sense and divine the meaning behind the text and stop reading them as literally true. I don’t want to live in a Christian Theocracy anymore than I want to live in a Muslim one. I applaud the young woman in this article for her efforts and as a person who knows several thinking muslims, I can say she is not alone in her frustration with her religion. We need to support her in her efforts and avoid tearing Islam down because there is good that can be found there.
Jun 15, 2009 - 5:23 pm 29. Bad Karma:c:
Unfortunately there’s not enough time to explain all that is wrong with your statement. In your notes from the book of Numbers, ie. the Old Testament, when was that written? Upon the introduction of the New Testament, was this still the norm? Why no it wasn’t. So what does that mean? There must have been a new direction then. Trying to compare the Bible to the quran is just silly at it’s heart. “A person can find justification to kill by reading the Bible just as they can by reading the Koran.” Really? Would you care to list those who have done this? Not only that, if you pull verses out of context in the Bible and put them together, then yes, you can justify about anything, however that’s disengenuous. Violence was and is in the Bible, however that was something that was put behind. A case much different though with the quran, verses not only advocate, but encourage violent aggression and is ingrained. Apologists will spends days trying to go around that fact. The only way to have an impact on islam in the fashion of this woman, is to totally do away with the quran and hadiths and start all over. Nearly every religion and culture has advanced beyond barbarism, except for one.
Jun 15, 2009 - 9:56 pm 30. Muslim NOT Mutlim:Let me get this right. The Jews and Christians are going to tell the Muslims what is right and what is wrong and how they should practice their faith?
Lets just call that religion MUTLIMS, and have women leading the prayers in miniskirts like Christine from the documentary.
For the rest who really want to worship your creator, here are couple of things to ponder.
1) Look up the meaning of Islam – Submission to Allah
Now why Allah not God?
Simple, there is NO PLURAL of Allah in Arabic (one, the only).
NO GOD/GODS in english.
2) The Laws are from GOD your creator. They are the same FOR ALL TIMES.
No scumbag politicians changing the laws as they see fit every 4 years.
For the rest who have made ‘democracy’ their religion or the peace loving christians.
just some factoids.
1) Hiroshima – Uranium based nuclear weapon.
2) Nagasaki – Plutonium based nuclear weapon.
If that doenst sound like a ‘test’ on the yellow people, I dont know what will.
And finally for those few muslims that think moderate muslims will be accepted by the non-muslims..think again
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_genocide
yep, muslims massacared under the protection of the UN – what a joke.
So, question comes back to – whos law will you want to stick by?
Jun 15, 2009 - 10:52 pm 31. Gregory R. Heins:fly by night politician or the ONE who created you (ie if you believe in a creator) – yes, that goes for all who believe in a higher being not just jews, christians, and muslims – hindus, sikhs, etc.
I just watched a special on PBS on what Asra Nomani has been doing in the Muslim Community. I’d have to say, that ‘what she is doing is not that easy and that I was considerably moved by what she is encountering’.
Jun 15, 2009 - 11:06 pm 32. Moral Equivalency's Immorality:Response to posters 26,27 & 28
The war to inauthenticate Judaism by Islam simply won’t work no matter the strategies employed. The face coverings of jihad do not hide intention. Nor is Islamic duel pronged strategies of terrorism and propaganda outside the realm of scrutiny and countered with truth.
The manipulation of language as in the above referred to posts use American idioms, expressions to set in place a table of lies, an agenda aimed at ensconcing alien ideological driven assaults against democracy. It does not wash.
Surely not for those of us who will and shall ever hold freedom and truth dear.
Islamic indoctrination tactologies work because of the world’s need for oil – oil politics – and the monies it puts into the deep pockets, banks and investment portfolios of rulerships, kleptocracies, British created kingships of white dress wearing princes the origins of which too few are aware. The artificiality of Islamic Middle East geographical mapping harks back to the British and WWI. Indeed, to establish authenticity is a reason the jihadists aim to globalize Islam. Destroy any and all competition and thereby witnesses to the lies made manifest by the moon worshippers that attached themselves to an advocate of a religion in which its founder became its sole central focus. His goal and those of his adherents to overwhelm, put to the sword and destroy non-Moslem peoples and geographies. A diktat that continues in this our day!
Those made wealthy by reason of sitting on of pools of oil beneath its inheritance of baron sand, its production developed by foreigners namely the United States without which desert combatants would have no power, no fuel to erect terrorist empires. Where is the creative impulse to better the standard of life even for its own people? To dedicate human resources to improve the quality of life for everyone? For that one has to turn to the minuscule tiny piece of real estate whose names do not even fit on the map, the Jewish State of Israel. Its contributions including the recent finding of the cure for cancer after decades of trying represents the miracle that is the Jewish State. In the fields of medicine, technologies to save and improve lives benefits everybody. There is no discrimination!
Consider the advent and rise of Islamic terrorism instead holding captive the non-Islamic world. Into this are its resources from oil dedicated. Instead of creative enterprise – the oppression, xenophobia, gender apartheid driven, and incitements against Israel – the minuscule State, the Land of Israel Deeded to the Jewish people by G-d as an inheritance for all time. That Deed is the Torah, the Bible whose truths bring light to the world. Consider the relationship between the 10 Commandments and democracy! Values which informs humanity without which equality and liberty are impossible.
The Jewish people defined by kindness, generosity of spirit enables a tremendous gift to all nations – the rise of quality of life as such that does not discriminate – a people that hopes for peace, true peace for all.
Jun 16, 2009 - 12:34 am 33. c:To post 29: I will follow my own conscience thank you. I have no faith that the way you interpret the Koran is the will of Allah. I do see your point though. Why would a Muslim try to change if her efforts are ridiculed.
To post 30: I am in no way attacking any religion. Instead, I am pointing out what is written in the book and how Christians have interpreted that book. I am glad that the most modern Jewish people have not interpreted their book in the way many modern Muslims interpret theirs, because the fact remains that there are horrific stories that can be found in the old testament.
Your post in a way demonstrates what I see as the problem. All Judia is good, all Islam is bad. So long as this cultural arrogance persists, there will never be peace. I feel for the struggle of the Jewish people. I also admire the fact that despite thousands of years of oppression, Israel has managed to survive. I appreciates the contributions of the Hebrew people and I appreciate the manner in which Judism has evolved. I no doubt would not be as open minded if I lived in the middle east surronded by people who would as soon blow me up as look at me. I do not live your reality. I do have a perspective that you do not have. I live and work with Muslims who are appalled at what they see their fellow muslims do. Islam itself is not the problem as much as the followers of Islam who make poor choices.
Jun 16, 2009 - 3:37 am 34. Jaladhi:#7 : I totally agree with you. There is absolutely no hope for Islam!!!!This woman wants to redecorate Islam with her delusional adoration of Islam. The people at her mosque are only practicing what real Islam is and the apologist of Islam want to camouflage the reality with the fake garb of peaceful and inclusive Islam. What a laugh!! It doesn’t work. Until and unless Muslims admit the inconvenient truths about Islam, there cannot be any improvement in their behavior towards any human being!!!
Jun 16, 2009 - 6:14 am 35. MiamaMan:28. c:
Please lay off the Hashish…
Your Statement: “We sit back and talk about how the Koran teach violence and terror. Exodus prompts followers of God destroy the religious icons of non-jews and drive them out. Take a look at how Moses says to kill every male, little one included, kill every woman who has know a man, and keep the women who have not to for themselves in Number 13 -17.”
Don’t worry about what people said, BUT WHAT THEY DO TODAY. I don’t care if someone wanted to kill me or convert me in a text 2-3,000 years ago, I rather worry about what they want to do to me today.
Regarding Christianity, let’s remind you once again, there was a Renaissance in Europe, people from that group, like Martin Luther, started a Church reform. There were the American and French revolutions, etc, etc. THE PROBLEM WITH ISLAM, IS THAT THEY DON’T CHANGE AND REMAIN “MEDIEVAL”.
30. Muslim NOT Mutlim:
Mutlin, listen…
[Let me get this right. The Jews and Christians are going to tell the Muslims what is right and what is wrong and how they should practice their faith?]
NO, Just leave us alone and don’t try to impose your hateful Sharia Law and your backward customs on us. Stay in Camel-land and obliterate each other there.
[1) Hiroshima - Uranium based nuclear weapon.
2) Nagasaki - Plutonium based nuclear weapon.]
Results: 500,000 American troops saved by Harry Truman, many more Japanese saved.
Jun 16, 2009 - 6:54 am 36. Peggy:I found this very interesting.
“Not one for inaction, Nomani also organized the first woman-led prayer service — one that had to take place in a church (St. John’s the Divine), in New York City, not in a mosque as none would have them.”
And yet all of these women, especially the converts, would say that they converted to Islam because Muslims have more respect for women and that women have rights in Islam. I know this because I have never heard of a female convert who didn’t list the above as one of her reasons for conversion.
How blind and in denial can people be? Seriously.
PS. As a traditional Christian myself, I see the same kind of “remake Christianity” attitude in many of our progressives. In other words, if the desired quality is not already present in the religion, yet we want it to be there, we will just ‘remake’ it to be more hospitable to us and more in our own image. This woman, who I am sure is a nice woman, is just the Islamic equivalent of someone like Presiding Bishop Schori of the Episcopal Church. And she will have as much success. Some will follow her, but the vast majority will never do so for sound theological reasons that have something to do with actually believing that a religion is received from God to transform us as opposed to it being a thing that we can transform at will to be more accomodating to modernity. Of course, the meaning of modernity will change every few years, meaning that religion which is designed for stability and to transmit tradition will be in constant upheaval. As opposed to a solid place, a refuge, it becomes as chaotic and disunited as the world around us.
Most people are by nature conservative and it is conservatives who seem to best understand in an instictive way why progressivism in religion must be resisted. This is not to say that religion should never change, but it should change from its own resources, as opposed to importing them or creating them out of thin air.
Comparing traditions, there are better and worse for women’s rights. Conservative Christianity is adamantly against women leading worship and yet had no problem incorporating them into every other role. Women have never had to go outside the Church as these women did, nor have they been physically intimidated for taking positions that the Bible itself granted them. Christianity never had a problem with establishing women’s centers of independence from men in the form of convents headed by women. These same convents from the very start of the religion affirmed the value of women in and of themselves apart from being wives and mothers.
My point, and I do have one, is that a modern woman doesn’t have to change Christianity from its ancient traditional form to have far more rights and respect than women will ever have from traditional Islam ie the form of Islam that will always predominate.
Jun 16, 2009 - 7:04 am 37. Self-hating Boomer:When I look at the kind of organic feminism arising from Islam, with such leaders as Nomani and Zahra Rahnavard, and many others, I’m reminded that the original western feminists were similar; religious, and somewhat conservative. The suffragettes were the leaders of the (disastrous) temperament movement. They were church ladies. They weren’t radicals.
The postmodernist radicals came much later.
Jun 16, 2009 - 8:07 am 38. Peggy:Phyllis,
I may be ignorant of some historical exception, but I cannot imagine Christian women ever being barred from praying at our holiest places just for being women (although I am aware of some old traditions that barred women from church during their cycles or after childbirth). What a heart-wrenching struggle it must be to have to fight to claim your rights as you had to. I wish it could have turned out better but at least you gained some ground.
As far as I know, Christian women have also for the most part always worshipped alongside of men although that often meant on different sides of the church. There was never any question of a women being uppity of immodest for wanting to worship in the same room or to have a full side of it for worship as it is an issue in Islam.
Christianity gets a bad rap for not being modern enough from some quarters, but I think it was way ahead of the game for so long. I say this not to brag on my faith but simply as proof against the utterly fantastical lie that Islam was ever better about valuing women as equals.
Jun 16, 2009 - 8:24 am 39. Bob:I watched the show last night and I commended Asra Nomani and her courage to “moderate” Islam according to her ways.
The biggest problem is that Islam is 99% Arabic. Asra Nomani will never get this deeply entrenched, permanently ingrained Arabic mindset, ways and laws out of Islam. It’s like trying to get a brain out of the human body and expected the body can function along solely from the heart. It’s never going to work in the long run.
The best thing for Asra Nomani is to walk away from Islam completely. It is an intolerant faith promoted by its followers trying to force non-Muslims to respect and tolerate an intolerant faith.
Jun 16, 2009 - 8:50 am 40. C:Bad karma,
I contend that much of the Koran is taken out of context, or better yet, in ones on interpretation of the it. Most Christians do not go to extremes but I do remember a story of a man who killed a doctor for performing abortions and used his religious beliefs to justify said actions. I also seem to recall good Christian people lauding this murderer as a hero.
I’m not defending violent people. I am defending well meaning people who get lumped into a category purely because they follow a particular religious tradition. A revolution needs to take place with in Islam. Hope that future reforms are not turned off by people who would condemn them regardless of how hard they work to meet us halfway. I’m done droning on about this because I have a feeling that no matter what I say, I’m going to be accused of smoking too much happy plant.
Jun 16, 2009 - 8:51 am 41. Tina Trent:“Consider the relationship between the 10 Commandments and democracy! Values which informs humanity without which equality and liberty are impossible. The Jewish people defined by kindness, generosity of spirit enables a tremendous gift to all nations – the rise of quality of life as such that does not discriminate – a people that hopes for peace, true peace for all.”
Well put, M.E.I.
Jun 16, 2009 - 9:49 am 42. David Thomson:Martin Luther’s reformation was a relatively modest affair. In many respects, it was evolutionary and not revolutionary. Catholic Women imperfectly possessed many rights and education was highly valued. Those adhering to the faith of the ancient church were paradoxically encouraged to enjoy the pleasures of this world while preparing for the next. An Islamic reformation would be a true revolution, an existentially cataclysmic event. I am adamantly convinced that traditional Islamic belief is inherently nihilistic. It is profoundly anti-life.
Jun 16, 2009 - 10:01 am 43. Mama Mia:C: 35
[NO, Just leave us alone and don’t try to impose your hateful Sharia Law and your backward customs on us. Stay in Camel-land and obliterate each other there.]
Last I check, I think its the US that meddles and IMPOSES its values.
Iran – Shah 1953
Afganistan, Somalia, Iraq – to just name a few.
Again, the bigger issue is who’s law’s do you want to follow and teach your kids?
1) Mr. Bush’s when he is in office
2) Mr. Obama when he is in office
3) Joe Shmoe when he is in office
as they manipulate and deceive the educated but ignorant.
or
4)Laws that will not change if you live in 10 century or 25 century.
Jews and Christians have abandoned the laws taught in Torah and Bible.
These people are manipulated based on who has power because they have abandoned the BOOKS and follow Priests and Popes even when they contradict what is in the Book under the guise of modernity.
Muslims on the other hand will not accept ‘modernizing’ the laws to fit some miniskirt touting modern self proclaimed mullah delusional idea of right and wrong – thats why I say lets just call these people MUTlims and be done with and leave the true Muslims (one who bows to NO ONE, but Allah) alone.
Jun 16, 2009 - 11:11 am 44. Peter the Bubblehead:28. c wrote:
Exodus prompts followers of God destroy the religiuos icons of non-jews and drive them out. Take a look at how Moses says to kill every male, little one included, kill every woman who has know a man, and keep the women who have not to for themselves in Number 13 -17.
Peter writes: The big difference is, you don’t see Jews or Christians going out, killing children and married women in the name of their religion and taking their virgin daughters as sex slaves. You haven’t seen anything like that connected with Judiasm or Christianity in hundreds of years.
But just take a look at the nightly news. Happens all the time in Islamic countries, and they want to do it here too.
Big difference!
Jun 16, 2009 - 11:24 am 45. Problem with Democarcy:Do you know what it means when these crazy fanatic Muslims, blow down and place they head on the ground?
They are saying, I accept the LAWS of Allah and NO ONE else.
The problem with Democracy – laws can be changed, bought and sold like a whore. – excuse my french, but its important to realize that.
What do you think is happening in DC? Millions are being spent to BUY the law that you must follow.
Once you understand that you realize why those in power fear Islam.
Jun 16, 2009 - 11:26 am 46. Peter the Bubblehead:It means if you follow Sharia Law, then you cant sneak in laws.
No immunity law – like US has on the world stage. We are immune from other but we will enforce our laws on others. Thats the double standard that is in conflict with Islam.
To Muslim NOT Mutlim @ #30:
So what you’re claiming is, according to you, laws written 1400 years ago should still hold sway without change today? Personally, I think that’s BS, because as civilization changes, everything has to change around and within it, and what doesn’t change must become extinct.
As for equating American defense in World War II with your perverted idea of a religion, keep in mind, the Japanese started the war by attacking the US and invading and occupying several foreign nations. (Including Indonesia as I recall. Do you honestly believe Indonesia would be a Muslim nation today if Japan had been let to have their own way?) The atomic bombs, while horrible, were the lesser of two evils when taking into consideration that the only other choice would have been an invasion of the Japanese home islands, resulting in likely up to half a million American casulties and probably close to 90% or more of the Japanese population, based on the actions of those who fought to the death and/or killed themselves in the invasions of Okinawa and other Japanese held territories. So get off your high horse and come up with relevent arguements, not the lefty loonie liberal straw men that always come up in threads like this.
Jun 16, 2009 - 11:32 am 47. Peter the Bubblehead:43. Mama Mia wrote:
4)Laws that will not change if you live in 10 century or 25 century.
Peter writes: The only 10th century law that is going to work in the 21st century without change is one that requires those who obey it to live as if they are still in the 10th century.
That is called stagnation. And it leads to extinction. Which is where I think those trying to impose a brutal, 7th century dictatorship disguised as an intolerant religion on the whole world belong!
Jun 16, 2009 - 11:39 am 48. Muslim Not Mutlim:Bubblehead,
yes, you are correct. I would rather have ONE law then the one that changes on the whim of potheads and one that is different for someone who can afford a $10,000 lawyer to make a deal.
As for the WWII ref, you fail to realize that the people bombed where Civilians and the use of plutonium and uranium was a TEST, not a strategic necessity.
The nuclear bombing is just like todays suicide bombers – only in this case 140,000 and 80,000 civilians were targeted.
It doent make either one right.
In war there is diff between targeting those fighting and civilians.
In this case you conveniently want to forget the 250,000 civilians were explicitly targeted here.
Thats the difference between following ONE law and laws being made to justify your actions.
Jun 16, 2009 - 12:02 pm 49. Muslim Not Mutlim:c: 46 – Bubblehead.
When I call myself a Muslim, it means I chose to abide by the 1400 year old laws.
There is a diff between the core law and laws like rules of the road to accommodate the modern times.
If I don’t like the core then I would call myself Christian or Jew or MUTlim – yea, there is no compulsion in Islam. You take it or leave it.
What Ms. Nomani is trying to do is change the core of what constitutes Islam, which is idiotic.
Its like me saying, I dont belive in Father, Son, Holy Ghost because there is no female voice – lets make the concept of Trinity – Father, Son, and Mary – nice little happy family. what do you say?
We are progressive, living in a modern world right? Right.
Jun 16, 2009 - 12:26 pm 50. MiamaMan:1) Mutlin, aka Mama Mia:
So you only bow to Allah? I thought them Muslims also bow to Mohammed (El Loco), or you imitate him only, also? I mean, the abuse, cutting off of heads, enslaving of women; the pedophilia activities, the “trip” on Heavenly Horse Harak (high on Jerusalem!).
2) Problem with “Democarcy”:
You are right, Hitler had a big problem with “Democarcy” too. Schweinehunde (excuse my German), we sure fear your Islam, pally. We are waiting for Israel to give’m a dose of Plutonium, that is the only language them dictatorships seem to understand.
Your Islam BS is in conflict with everything and everyone. What Mohammed needed at that time was a Jewish shrink.
Jun 16, 2009 - 1:05 pm 51. Peggy:Muslim not Mutlim,
It depends on what the core is. You think its one thing. Christians think its another thing and we are as loyal to our core as you are to yours.
Find another example of someone who is not loyal to the core laws, a–hole.
Jun 16, 2009 - 2:23 pm 52. Norman Simms:What a wonderful resource your comments are, Phyllis, and the interesting and enriching commentaries that follow. If only the RIGHT people were reading this, and if only it led to a determination to perotect our civilizatioon, our religions, and ourselves.
Norman
Jun 16, 2009 - 5:01 pm 53. Muslim Not Mutlim:c.50 and 51
see my post 43 about the – educated but ignorant.
c50-[I thought them Muslims also bow to Mohammed]
c51-[It depends on what the core is]
and here you, spitting out a load of carp about something you know nothing about.
I rest my case.
Jun 16, 2009 - 11:26 pm 54. Madashell:Women who aren’t captive by your barbaric psychopathic “laws” and men who keep their knuckless off the ground want nothing to do with your “core”. Any animals who shoot women in the head, toss acid in their faces for a good time, rape a woman and then blame her, set them aflame and force the ones they let live to cover up like mummies in stifling heat–just because you throwbacks to pithecantropus erectus aren’t strong enough to resist your own immature preoccupation with lust– aren’t worth listening to.
And you have the audacity to call others “ignorant”.
Jun 17, 2009 - 5:01 am 55. Rick:Why is the mosque in Morgantown allowed to exist? If the mullah is preaching hate and anti-American ideas , the place should be shut down, and if he is not a US citizen, he should be deported. Are the people in Morgantown ignorant, or just lacking in balls?
Jun 17, 2009 - 5:16 am 56. Peter the Bubblehead:48. Muslim Not Mutlim wrote:
As for the WWII ref, you fail to realize that the people bombed where Civilians and the use of plutonium and uranium was a TEST, not a strategic necessity.
Peter writes: Try learning history before you debate a historian.
Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets, and therefore as legal to bomb as London, Berlin, Yokohama, Kobe, Kawasaki, or Kuwana.
Hiroshima was a city industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata’s 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan.
The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.
So don’t go telling me the atomic bombs were experiments against civilians. The two cities destroyed had as much military significance as Pearl Harbor or London, which were heavily bombed by the enemy as well.
Learn history before you try and write it!
Jun 17, 2009 - 5:19 am 57. kactuz:Actually Muslims bow to a black rock. They say they are bowing to Allah but he is nowhere to be seen. The black stone, however, is visible and that is what they bow to, just like before Islam. Nothing has changed. Note that the people that controlled the Meccan idol worship in pre-Islamic times are the same that took over Islam after the second Caliph (Omar).
MNM is one of those Muslims what can’t understand the simple words of her own Quran and hadith. The fact is that Islam teaches hate and violence. Her dear prophet PERSONNALY led 26 raids against non-Muslims. He murdered, tortured, plundered, enslaved men women and children, let his men rape captives, lied and even beat Aisha. Well that is what Islam’s own traditions say. Does this bother Muslims? No not at all! They say ‘Praise be upon him’ after his name and the Quran says he is a great moral example (33:21). Figure out what that means. Note that the ahadeeth say he sent out 2 dozen more raids in which he stayed home. Think of the misery and suffering these raids brought to innocent men women and children. MNM must be so proud.
Also, fyi, if you think “there is NO PLURAL of Allah” you haven’t read the Quran. Allah uses the collective form (”we”) hundreds of times. In fact, Allah has a partner and his name is Mohammed. Note such verses as “He who obeys the prophet obeys Allah” (48:10) and “When Allah and the Messenger decide a matter” (33.36) and so on. So much for not joining partners to Allah. Oh yes, Allah and Mohammad, according to the Quran, split 20% of the loot from Jihad (see 8.41- “spoils of War” chapter in Quran). Yep, sounds like a partnership to me. So instead of a trinity Islam has a binity (duity? doublety? not sure of the proper word). By the way, aren’t all those special priviledges in the Quran for Mohammed kind of suspicious? There are about a dozen of them but my favorite is the one in which your prophet says he has permission to attack mosques(Verse 9:107, 110: “They built a Masjid out of mischief and to promote disbelief). Great!
Also regarding the trinity comment. Note that no Christian considers Mary as part of the trinity, as indicated in the Quran. Your Allah (or his ghost writer, Mo) obviously was uninformed about basic principles of Christianity and Judism.
Well, got to go. I will leave MNM with 2 eternal verses from her 1400 year-old “perfect” book. The first is 9:111 in which Allah says Muslims are put on earth “to kill and be killed”. They are certainly doing their part. The second is “O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble… Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” (5:101-102)
So, for Muslims the rule is “no questions allowed, no thinking permited”.
Kactuz
Jun 17, 2009 - 8:05 am 58. Peggy:Muslim not MuTlim,
I did read #43 before I commented and you don’t have a case to rest.
The Christian core is the Law of Love. For 2000 years there has been a continuity of the faithful who have adhered to our core without fail. This does not mean that all Christians have been good Christians, but there has always been good and faithful Christians.
The law of Love demands that we not kill and beat people when they decide to do wrong. But rather we seek to redeem them and salvage those lives for a greater good. If they must be locked up it is only for the most serious crimes.
This means putting up with people who offend our values with patience and sacrificial love, winning them freely to the side of good or else allowing them to suffer the consequences of their behavior as responsible actors.
Such a society is more messy but truly free where everyone has a real choice to live good lives.
Islam is entirely illogical and irrational so it cannot be the core laws. There is no real freedom to choose in Islam because of the extreme measures (including verbal aggression and shunning) for keeping everyone in line.
Those who don’t obey Christ are either not Christians by profession or else they are what are called nominal Christians in which they may have a baptismal certificate which gives them membership in the Church but they fail to live as Christians.
Western people with their un-Christian morals do not equal Christians. By equating the bad behavior of Western people with Christianity and the Church, you commit serious logical fallacies that are only laughable.
You are only mighty in your own head.
Jun 17, 2009 - 10:51 am 59. Peter the Bubblehead:Please, somebody explain to me how this could follow any ‘law’ written in the 7th century, and if it IS a law, why it should not be changed?
A Christian man was stoned to death in Pakistan for drinking tea from a roadside stall designated for Muslims.
According to International Christian Concern (ICC) the man, Ishtiaq Masih, had ordered tea at a stall in Machharkay village, Punjab, Pakistan, after his bus stopped to allow passengers to relieve themselves.
When Ishtiaq went to pay for his tea, the owner noticed that he was wearing a necklace with a cross and grabbed him, calling for his employees to bring anything available to beat him for violating a sign posted on the stall warning non-Muslims to declare their religion before being served.
Ishtiaq had not noticed the warning sign before ordering his tea, as he ordered with a group of his fellow passengers.
Witnesses claim the owner and 14 of his employees beat Ishtiaq with stones, iron rods and clubs, and stabbed him multiple times with kitchen knives as Ishtiaq pleaded for mercy.
Article found at:
http://www.theasiannews.co.uk//community/heritage/s/1120922_christian_killed_for_drinking_tea_from_muslim_stall_
Islam, real religion of peace. Yeah, right.
Jun 17, 2009 - 11:03 am 60. Peggy:kactuz,
I watched the program last night and I could have shaken the life out of this woman, I wanted so bad to reach her. She has one of the worst cases of Islam Denial Syndrome I have ever seen.
1) Not even the most progressive mosque in America would accept her.
2) None, absolutely no, mosques allowed her to hold a female led prayer service. It had to take place in a church and I will bet that most of the women there were converts who also have this unicorns and rainbows view of Islam.
And yet, in that progressive mosque she actually said that Islam equals feminism. Its actual expression in the world gives absolutely no indication of this if she has to fight everyone in order to pray as an equal in any mosque in the country. Her Islam only exists in her mind. There is no expression of it anywhere in the world but she doesn’t see the contradiction.
Her little blonde friend is also apparently a Muslim convert. She doesn’t wear anything that would mark her as one and apparently she agrees because in spite of seeing the battle to simply pray side by side with men and enter the mosque by the men’s door, she stays a Muslim. She doesn’t even seem to question why the feminist Islam in her head isn’t found anywhere on earth.
I have seen so many times that I have come to believe that the moderates and progressives of Islam have made up an Islam made in their own image. They seem to believe that since they are nice, modern, moderate, peaceful people, then this means that Islam is all of those things. They seem to believe that they couldn’t be good people unless Islam was also good.
MNM is, like all Muslims, perfect example of this syndrome. She only sees herself in Islam and is blind to any other fact. If she is a good moral person then Islam gets the credit for that.
Interestingly, the best educated Christians never interpose Christianity or the Church between us and God, who alone makes us good if we are good at all. These folks do not believe that by simply being born Christians that we are good. Nor do we believe that since we are good people then the Church gets the credit for making us that way and that therefore there are no flaws in the earthly Church. It is a much more rational and fact based way to be.
Jun 17, 2009 - 11:10 am 61. MiamaMan:57. kactuz:
[Actually Muslims bow to a black rock. They say they are bowing to Allah but he is nowhere to be seen. The black stone, however, is visible and that is what they bow to, just like before Islam. Nothing has changed. Note that the people that controlled the Meccan idol worship in pre-Islamic times are the same that took over Islam after the second Caliph (Omar).]
kactuz, although we are almost on the same page, please allow me to say something about your statement above. I am a Hindu by faith. Some of us Hindus also bow to a rock worshiping God, this special rock is called a Lingam (mostly known as a Shiva Lingam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam
This is an ancient tradition going back thousands of years (Indus Valley Civilization), before Christ and of course Mohammend.
This, in no way, means idol worship. God is One without a second (Brahma Ekam Eva Advitiyam), but can be worshiped in many ways. Actually, this claim of idol-worship and polytheism, was the main claim used by the Islamic invaders in India to destroy temples, murder, maim, and terrorize. Verily, Islam considers Jews and Christians still as “people of the book”, but saves its greatest contempt for Hindus, and WRONGLY.
Moreover, something has changed. The earlier Arabs before Islam had a vibrant religion with many similarities to Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism). Like the Muslim conquerors did in Iran, Mohammend totally destroyed, or converted by force, these Arab tribes.
It is important, especially nowadays, to understand and study this Arab, pre-Islamic, culture and religion. The stone you mentioned is a remnant of a Lingam.
Jun 17, 2009 - 4:08 pm 62. kactuz:Peggy, I could tell you stories about Muslims and Islam that border on bizarre, or better, go beyond wierd. Actually I have no words that adequately describe the stupid things Muslims say and do when it comes to their religion. When it comes to the Quran and ahadith, words mean nothing to them. Basic notions of equality, standards of logic and “cause and effect” are thrown out the window when talking with Muslims about Islam – and these were not for the most part radicals but plain, ordinary, nice, westernized Muslims. It is scary. It is almost as if they park their brains in a box or enter a trance. If you give them a page from the hadith and ask them to read about the adventures of their dear prophet, and then ask them to tell you what it says, well, you never know what they will say. Their eyes glaze over, murdering a mother becomes a “justified” killing, a surprise attack becomes self-defense, rape becomes “everybody did it back then”, hate-filled verses become “out of context”, and so on. It is like parallel worlds with no intersecting points.
Three things are certain with Muslims: 1. They are ignorant of the theology of the Quran and traditions, 2. They don’t apply the same standards to themselves that they demand for others, and 3. Islam is perfect and infidels are evil and/or ignorant and/or full of hate and always distort things.
You are right, Muslims see Islam as they would like it to be (some idealized version) not as it is. They have an excuse for everything and usually this is a matter of blaming 1 of 50 things for the problems that Muslims and the Muslim world face (out of context, bad translations, you need to learn more, jews, Israel, zionists, colonialism, Bush, USA, poverty, western support for dictators, the crusades, suffering of the palestinian people, education, local cultural factors, Capitalism, globalization, evil western culture, a few bad apples, other people did it too, etc and so on….) It is never Islam’s fault. Muslims never take responsibility for their actions.
It is my firm belief that there is no such thing as a “moderate” Muslim, only ones that make excuses and pretend that Islam has nothing to do with what Muslims do. The so-called “Moderates” cannot be trusted with our freedoms. They will not stand up for us when the cards are on the table. If anybody doubts this then just look at the so-called moderate Muslims in Islamic societies — they don’t stand up for non-Muslims, jews, gays, women.
MNM and the blonde are examples of this mentality. I am as mystified as you on how people can be so irrational. Good luck and keep up the good work.
Kactuz
Jun 17, 2009 - 4:16 pm 63. Peggy:MiamaMan,
I am glad you posted #61. Its a perspective in Hinduism that we could all use.
What you said only reinforces what I recently learned from this amazing series I saw on public television about the history of India. I was just amazed at all of it, but especially by some of the religious history.
I have never and will never see India with rose-colored glasses. I think that all religions as practiced by man are flawed to greater and lesser degrees. But the more I learn about India the more an India-phile I become. The more I learn about Hinduism, the more I find to respect about it even if I must strongly disagree with some of its beliefs.
Where ever Indian Hindus have immigrated, they have been nothing but peaceful and a credit to any nation where they live. I believe that it is only because of the influence of Hinduism that Indian Muslims have followed the same path of peaceful moderation. Your people haven’t moved into another person’s house only to start a remodeling project all while making unreasonable demands for accommodation. You haven’t moved to someone else’s country to threaten to start wrecking it if you don’t get your way. Like all immigrants before you, you simply create what your community needs without forcing anyone else to live like you do or inconveniencing anyone else.
If this was the only thing to respect your community for, it would be plenty.
You have a lot to be proud of as a group.
Jun 17, 2009 - 10:08 pm 64. MiamaMan:63. Peggy:
Thanks. Please notice I am a Hindu by choice, by race I am white European, and by heritage Cuban-Spanish. Nationality American. There are many of us in the US.
I have traveled extensively in India, and know the country, pathos, and religion well.
1) Your Statement: [I have never and will never see India with rose-colored glasses. I think that all religions as practiced by man are flawed to greater and lesser degrees. But the more I learn about India the more an India-phile I become. The more I learn about Hinduism, the more I find to respect about it even if I must strongly disagree with some of its beliefs.]
Very true, religions are man-made and flawed. Within Hinduism, I concentrate on spirituality and Yoga (mind you, not the so-called Yoga we know here, but very different). Yoga tells you that you must be able to experience by yourself the different spiritual experiences on the spiritual path (and there are many). Swami Vivekananda, who introduced Yoga in the US in 1893, Chicago World Religions meeting stressed: “not to believe anyone, for exalted he/she appears, if you cannot practice towards his/her realization”. Meaning, no dogma, for dogma religion, and mistakes, go together. As for disagreeing with some of Hinduism’s beliefs, although valid of course, many of us have (or had) wrong beliefs about Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism).
2) Your Statement: [Where ever Indian Hindus have immigrated, they have been nothing but peaceful and a credit to any nation where they live. I believe that it is only because of the influence of Hinduism that Indian Muslims have followed the same path of peaceful moderation.]
This is correct. Your assessment of Indian Muslims is also, mostly, correct. However, there is work to be done. A lot of Muslim terrorism in India is homegrown, but, as the Kargill conflict with Pakistan in 1999 showed, Indian Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims can fight together to defend Mother India. As such, I am a strong advocate of reversing the Partition of India, this is the Paki-Come-Home approach, as Pakistanis are nothing but Indian Muslims. Alas, General Musharraf was born in Delhi, India, former Indian Prime Minister Vaijpagee in Karachi, now Pakistan. The Indus river is in Pakistan, as well as the Hindu Kush. A loose federation would allow India to fulfill Her Dharma better, and finally.
Jun 18, 2009 - 8:36 am 65. Self-hating Boomer:There’s something very familiar about that narrative. I’ve heard that coming from another group of people, but I can’t quite place who.
Jun 18, 2009 - 9:46 am