(out of context, bad translations, you need to learn more, jews, Israel, zionists, colonialism, Bush, USA, poverty, western support for dictators, the crusades, suffering of the palestinian people, education, local cultural factors, Capitalism, globalization, evil western culture, a few bad apples, other people did it too, etc and so on….)

There’s something very familiar about that narrative. I’ve heard that coming from another group of people, but I can’t quite place who.

Thanks. Please notice I am a Hindu by choice, by race I am white European, and by heritage Cuban-Spanish. Nationality American. There are many of us in the US.

I have traveled extensively in India, and know the country, pathos, and religion well.

1) Your Statement: [I have never and will never see India with rose-colored glasses. I think that all religions as practiced by man are flawed to greater and lesser degrees. But the more I learn about India the more an India-phile I become. The more I learn about Hinduism, the more I find to respect about it even if I must strongly disagree with some of its beliefs.]

Very true, religions are man-made and flawed. Within Hinduism, I concentrate on spirituality and Yoga (mind you, not the so-called Yoga we know here, but very different). Yoga tells you that you must be able to experience by yourself the different spiritual experiences on the spiritual path (and there are many). Swami Vivekananda, who introduced Yoga in the US in 1893, Chicago World Religions meeting stressed: “not to believe anyone, for exalted he/she appears, if you cannot practice towards his/her realization”. Meaning, no dogma, for dogma religion, and mistakes, go together. As for disagreeing with some of Hinduism’s beliefs, although valid of course, many of us have (or had) wrong beliefs about Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism).

2) Your Statement: [Where ever Indian Hindus have immigrated, they have been nothing but peaceful and a credit to any nation where they live. I believe that it is only because of the influence of Hinduism that Indian Muslims have followed the same path of peaceful moderation.]

This is correct. Your assessment of Indian Muslims is also, mostly, correct. However, there is work to be done. A lot of Muslim terrorism in India is homegrown, but, as the Kargill conflict with Pakistan in 1999 showed, Indian Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims can fight together to defend Mother India. As such, I am a strong advocate of reversing the Partition of India, this is the Paki-Come-Home approach, as Pakistanis are nothing but Indian Muslims. Alas, General Musharraf was born in Delhi, India, former Indian Prime Minister Vaijpagee in Karachi, now Pakistan. The Indus river is in Pakistan, as well as the Hindu Kush. A loose federation would allow India to fulfill Her Dharma better, and finally.

I am glad you posted #61. Its a perspective in Hinduism that we could all use.

What you said only reinforces what I recently learned from this amazing series I saw on public television about the history of India. I was just amazed at all of it, but especially by some of the religious history.

I have never and will never see India with rose-colored glasses. I think that all religions as practiced by man are flawed to greater and lesser degrees. But the more I learn about India the more an India-phile I become. The more I learn about Hinduism, the more I find to respect about it even if I must strongly disagree with some of its beliefs.

Where ever Indian Hindus have immigrated, they have been nothing but peaceful and a credit to any nation where they live. I believe that it is only because of the influence of Hinduism that Indian Muslims have followed the same path of peaceful moderation. Your people haven’t moved into another person’s house only to start a remodeling project all while making unreasonable demands for accommodation. You haven’t moved to someone else’s country to threaten to start wrecking it if you don’t get your way. Like all immigrants before you, you simply create what your community needs without forcing anyone else to live like you do or inconveniencing anyone else.

If this was the only thing to respect your community for, it would be plenty. You have a lot to be proud of as a group.

Three things are certain with Muslims: 1. They are ignorant of the theology of the Quran and traditions, 2. They don’t apply the same standards to themselves that they demand for others, and 3. Islam is perfect and infidels are evil and/or ignorant and/or full of hate and always distort things.

You are right, Muslims see Islam as they would like it to be (some idealized version) not as it is. They have an excuse for everything and usually this is a matter of blaming 1 of 50 things for the problems that Muslims and the Muslim world face (out of context, bad translations, you need to learn more, jews, Israel, zionists, colonialism, Bush, USA, poverty, western support for dictators, the crusades, suffering of the palestinian people, education, local cultural factors, Capitalism, globalization, evil western culture, a few bad apples, other people did it too, etc and so on….) It is never Islam’s fault. Muslims never take responsibility for their actions.

It is my firm belief that there is no such thing as a “moderate” Muslim, only ones that make excuses and pretend that Islam has nothing to do with what Muslims do. The so-called “Moderates” cannot be trusted with our freedoms. They will not stand up for us when the cards are on the table. If anybody doubts this then just look at the so-called moderate Muslims in Islamic societies — they don’t stand up for non-Muslims, jews, gays, women.

MNM and the blonde are examples of this mentality. I am as mystified as you on how people can be so irrational. Good luck and keep up the good work.

Kactuz

[Actually Muslims bow to a black rock. They say they are bowing to Allah but he is nowhere to be seen. The black stone, however, is visible and that is what they bow to, just like before Islam. Nothing has changed. Note that the people that controlled the Meccan idol worship in pre-Islamic times are the same that took over Islam after the second Caliph (Omar).]

kactuz, although we are almost on the same page, please allow me to say something about your statement above. I am a Hindu by faith. Some of us Hindus also bow to a rock worshiping God, this special rock is called a Lingam (mostly known as a Shiva Lingam). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingam

This is an ancient tradition going back thousands of years (Indus Valley Civilization), before Christ and of course Mohammend.

This, in no way, means idol worship. God is One without a second (Brahma Ekam Eva Advitiyam), but can be worshiped in many ways. Actually, this claim of idol-worship and polytheism, was the main claim used by the Islamic invaders in India to destroy temples, murder, maim, and terrorize. Verily, Islam considers Jews and Christians still as “people of the book”, but saves its greatest contempt for Hindus, and WRONGLY.

Moreover, something has changed. The earlier Arabs before Islam had a vibrant religion with many similarities to Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism). Like the Muslim conquerors did in Iran, Mohammend totally destroyed, or converted by force, these Arab tribes.

It is important, especially nowadays, to understand and study this Arab, pre-Islamic, culture and religion. The stone you mentioned is a remnant of a Lingam.

I watched the program last night and I could have shaken the life out of this woman, I wanted so bad to reach her. She has one of the worst cases of Islam Denial Syndrome I have ever seen.

1) Not even the most progressive mosque in America would accept her.

2) None, absolutely no, mosques allowed her to hold a female led prayer service. It had to take place in a church and I will bet that most of the women there were converts who also have this unicorns and rainbows view of Islam.

And yet, in that progressive mosque she actually said that Islam equals feminism. Its actual expression in the world gives absolutely no indication of this if she has to fight everyone in order to pray as an equal in any mosque in the country. Her Islam only exists in her mind. There is no expression of it anywhere in the world but she doesn’t see the contradiction.

Her little blonde friend is also apparently a Muslim convert. She doesn’t wear anything that would mark her as one and apparently she agrees because in spite of seeing the battle to simply pray side by side with men and enter the mosque by the men’s door, she stays a Muslim. She doesn’t even seem to question why the feminist Islam in her head isn’t found anywhere on earth.

I have seen so many times that I have come to believe that the moderates and progressives of Islam have made up an Islam made in their own image. They seem to believe that since they are nice, modern, moderate, peaceful people, then this means that Islam is all of those things. They seem to believe that they couldn’t be good people unless Islam was also good.

MNM is, like all Muslims, perfect example of this syndrome. She only sees herself in Islam and is blind to any other fact. If she is a good moral person then Islam gets the credit for that.

Interestingly, the best educated Christians never interpose Christianity or the Church between us and God, who alone makes us good if we are good at all. These folks do not believe that by simply being born Christians that we are good. Nor do we believe that since we are good people then the Church gets the credit for making us that way and that therefore there are no flaws in the earthly Church. It is a much more rational and fact based way to be.

A Christian man was stoned to death in Pakistan for drinking tea from a roadside stall designated for Muslims.

According to International Christian Concern (ICC) the man, Ishtiaq Masih, had ordered tea at a stall in Machharkay village, Punjab, Pakistan, after his bus stopped to allow passengers to relieve themselves.

When Ishtiaq went to pay for his tea, the owner noticed that he was wearing a necklace with a cross and grabbed him, calling for his employees to bring anything available to beat him for violating a sign posted on the stall warning non-Muslims to declare their religion before being served.

Ishtiaq had not noticed the warning sign before ordering his tea, as he ordered with a group of his fellow passengers.

Witnesses claim the owner and 14 of his employees beat Ishtiaq with stones, iron rods and clubs, and stabbed him multiple times with kitchen knives as Ishtiaq pleaded for mercy.

Article found at:
http://www.theasiannews.co.uk//community/heritage/s/1120922_christian_killed_for_drinking_tea_from_muslim_stall_

Islam, real religion of peace. Yeah, right.

I did read #43 before I commented and you don’t have a case to rest.

The Christian core is the Law of Love. For 2000 years there has been a continuity of the faithful who have adhered to our core without fail. This does not mean that all Christians have been good Christians, but there has always been good and faithful Christians.

The law of Love demands that we not kill and beat people when they decide to do wrong. But rather we seek to redeem them and salvage those lives for a greater good. If they must be locked up it is only for the most serious crimes.

This means putting up with people who offend our values with patience and sacrificial love, winning them freely to the side of good or else allowing them to suffer the consequences of their behavior as responsible actors.

Such a society is more messy but truly free where everyone has a real choice to live good lives.

Islam is entirely illogical and irrational so it cannot be the core laws. There is no real freedom to choose in Islam because of the extreme measures (including verbal aggression and shunning) for keeping everyone in line.

Those who don’t obey Christ are either not Christians by profession or else they are what are called nominal Christians in which they may have a baptismal certificate which gives them membership in the Church but they fail to live as Christians.

Western people with their un-Christian morals do not equal Christians. By equating the bad behavior of Western people with Christianity and the Church, you commit serious logical fallacies that are only laughable.

You are only mighty in your own head.

MNM is one of those Muslims what can’t understand the simple words of her own Quran and hadith. The fact is that Islam teaches hate and violence. Her dear prophet PERSONNALY led 26 raids against non-Muslims. He murdered, tortured, plundered, enslaved men women and children, let his men rape captives, lied and even beat Aisha. Well that is what Islam’s own traditions say. Does this bother Muslims? No not at all! They say ‘Praise be upon him’ after his name and the Quran says he is a great moral example (33:21). Figure out what that means. Note that the ahadeeth say he sent out 2 dozen more raids in which he stayed home. Think of the misery and suffering these raids brought to innocent men women and children. MNM must be so proud.

Also, fyi, if you think “there is NO PLURAL of Allah” you haven’t read the Quran. Allah uses the collective form (”we”) hundreds of times. In fact, Allah has a partner and his name is Mohammed. Note such verses as “He who obeys the prophet obeys Allah” (48:10) and “When Allah and the Messenger decide a matter” (33.36) and so on. So much for not joining partners to Allah. Oh yes, Allah and Mohammad, according to the Quran, split 20% of the loot from Jihad (see 8.41- “spoils of War” chapter in Quran). Yep, sounds like a partnership to me. So instead of a trinity Islam has a binity (duity? doublety? not sure of the proper word). By the way, aren’t all those special priviledges in the Quran for Mohammed kind of suspicious? There are about a dozen of them but my favorite is the one in which your prophet says he has permission to attack mosques(Verse 9:107, 110: “They built a Masjid out of mischief and to promote disbelief). Great!

Also regarding the trinity comment. Note that no Christian considers Mary as part of the trinity, as indicated in the Quran. Your Allah (or his ghost writer, Mo) obviously was uninformed about basic principles of Christianity and Judism.

Well, got to go. I will leave MNM with 2 eternal verses from her 1400 year-old “perfect” book. The first is 9:111 in which Allah says Muslims are put on earth “to kill and be killed”. They are certainly doing their part. The second is “O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which if made plain to you, may cause you trouble… Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.” (5:101-102)
So, for Muslims the rule is “no questions allowed, no thinking permited”.

Kactuz

Peter writes: Try learning history before you debate a historian.

Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki were military targets, and therefore as legal to bomb as London, Berlin, Yokohama, Kobe, Kawasaki, or Kuwana.

Hiroshima was a city industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Shunroku Hata’s 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan.

The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great wartime importance because of its wide-ranging industrial activity, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials.

So don’t go telling me the atomic bombs were experiments against civilians. The two cities destroyed had as much military significance as Pearl Harbor or London, which were heavily bombed by the enemy as well.

Learn history before you try and write it!