69 Comments

1. George Jochnowitz:

The German government will forgive Mehmet O. After all, if there are Israelis living in settlements on the West Bank, how can a Muslim father be expected not to kill his daughter? If you are filled with hatred, you’ve got to kill. If your enemies are not nearby, you kill whoever is around. Europeans and leftists understand this.

Murder is a very serious and unambiguous issue, despite what some Europeans and some leftists think. Dress codes, on the other hand, raise complicated questions of culture and freedom. One should concentrate on the murderous aspect of Islam and not get sidetracked by debates in which people can honestly disagree about what is right and wrong.

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:20 pm 2. SYD:

I look forward to reading your work in this area, Dr. Chesler.

Thanks for taking the question so seriously.

SYD

Jun 26, 2009 - 1:40 pm 3. Louis Santacroce:

“Some people believe that Muslim immigrants must be educated about our laws and must sign an agreement to follow them.” — Yes, and so should every other immigrant.

“…whether or not to ban the burqa, niqab, or hijab in America. Some Jewish and Christian religious people do not like the idea of the government controlling anyone’s religious rights. They fear that they might be next in line.” — I do not see the burqa, niqab or hijab as being a “religious right.” They are symbols of oppression, like buring crosses and swastikas, which should be banned as well.

“Some people think that all Muslim fundamentalists or the families of Muslims who commit an honor killing should be deported from the West.” — No; deport the families (that includes uncles, aunts, cousins, EVERYONE), impose life sentences in supermaxes for the accessories and speedy EXECUTIONS for the perpetrators.

Enough of this garbage! When most Americans spend more time mourning the death of Michael Jackson than the dis-honor killings of these women (not to mention other muslim crimes), it’s time to get radical.

Jun 26, 2009 - 2:41 pm 4. David Thomson:

We should not enact an outright ban the burqa. The face, however, must be uncovered when being photographed by a government agency. All employers also retain the right not to hire this person. This is not an easy question—because there are likely a number of other reasons why such an individual deserves to be legitimately discriminated against. Still, as a general rule we must cut as much slack as possible.

Jun 26, 2009 - 3:03 pm 5. Evil Pundit:

And, some people believe that violence against girls and women is both overwhelming and universal and that it is “racist” or “persecutory” to single out only Muslim violence. Doing so, allows us to forget how much bigger violence against women, including femicide, really is.

And the vast majority of victims of all types of violence are men. It is sexist and persecutory to single out only violence against women.

Jun 26, 2009 - 7:15 pm 6. Juliet:

I agree with # 4 David. As a Catholic who grew up with nuns in habits ( but face & hands uncovered) I don’t want the government to tell me what to ware. But private enterprise, schools, & government jobs are a different story. I can ask you to remove your shoes to come in my house but you have the right not to come in but in case of an emergency I am not going to stop a fireman from entering my house because he kept his shoes on. If i remember my catholism Jesus did stop a stoning. We the Western world has come so far and we are still wainting for the Muslim world. IN AMERICA SHOULDN’T HONOR KILLING BE A HATE CRIME?

Jun 26, 2009 - 7:30 pm 7. Lauren:

When do we start to stand up for our own culture???? When did it become fashionable and acceptable to accept everyone else’s rights to their culture but our own culture and cultural norms?

When did it stop being understandable to say ok to hijab but not in my country…to realize that there are plenty of places in the world where this is the norm and that if you want to live like that we respect your wishes so long as you go live there?

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:36 am 8. David Thomson:

A university has a right to demand that monitors be able to see the faces of test takers. Ted Kennedy, for instance, got expelled from Harvard University because the monitor recognize the impostor who was taking his Spanish test for him. I’m sure we can think of countless other examples.

“I also believe that honor killings are not the same as western style domestic violence”

This is the understatement of the year. There have been past excuses for the abuser: “She made him do it.” Still, the culture never honored and celebrated the offense.
There may have never been even one instance when a mainstream Western religious leader glorified a physical assault. I am unaware of any exceptions whatsoever.

Jun 27, 2009 - 8:42 am 9. Anonymous:

Liberals will make everyone wear burqahs out of fear of causing offense. Watch.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:43 am 10. Meryl:

Thank you for keeping the light on this, Ms. Chesler.

We’ve got a window of opportunity here to save our nation on several fronts, including having the truth be a “major factor” (wouldn’t that be nice?) in our governments decision making when it comes to policies and laws.

I despise what power hungry, lying, thieving leaders are doing to us.

They are the extremists in this land. Extremely stupid. Extremely arrogant. Extremely shortsighted. Extremely ignorant. Extremely uninformed. Extremely incapable of caring about the United States of America. Extremely, extremely dangerous and deadly.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:26 am 11. Meryl:

7. Lauren: “When did it become fashionable and acceptable to accept everyone else’s rights to their culture but our own culture and cultural norms?”

Oh, it’s generally been around for awhile.

It became the official national default position in January of 2009 when a person who has no affection for America or its culture was immaculated into the Presidency.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:36 am 12. daveinga:

it’s amazing how all the western feminist women’s groups have for years stood up, adamantly protested and been the backbone of the tremendous outpouring of support for all these foreign women being victimized, brutalized and sometimes killed. it says tons about their character.

i’m sure all the u.s. women’s groups have been regularly donating much of the billions ($$$$) poured their way annually (v.a.w.a) to help these very REAL victims of violence. and the donations by individual women (showing their inbred empathy) must really be filling up these foreign women victims coffers.

i’m sure these feminist women’s groups are not worried a bit about how this REAL violence against their “sisters in sufferage”, could potentially upstage their usual annual raids on government funds. these are, after all, very REAL victims of violence.

but, rather than jeopardise their cash cow, they have probably already just ran across the hall to o.b.’s office (he’s a real feminist ya know), and borrowed trillions of other people’s money to … donate.

Jun 27, 2009 - 12:18 pm 13. Lisa:

The burqa, chador, and niqab are tribal not religious. Ban them. They are oppressive.

I’ve seen girls as young as 5 in hijab and chadors. I’ve seen girls as young as 10 in burqas. In the U.S. How is this a choice? By forcing them to dress like this so young, they are making these girls outsiders and making them feel naked without such extreme covering. By separating the girls from society so young and so consistently, they are making these girls extremely dependent upon their family and insular community making ‘deviant’ behavior that much more unlikely.

As for those who commit honor killings, they should be charged with a hate crime,jailed and deported after serving their terms; acessories should immediately be deported. Citizens should be jailed for life

Jun 27, 2009 - 1:08 pm 14. watcher in the dark:

It is entirely reasonable in a free society (such as we can claim to have right now) an adult should be free to dress as they wish, providing certain degrees of modesty are observed.

On that basis, the Burqa and the rest of what can be assessed as dark age trappings of the muslim faith are fine. If a woman wants to cover her face, that’s her prerogative as a free, independent and hopefully well-informed individual.

Unfortunately, while I may say that, I can’t help feeling something else is going on. There is, apparently, no direct command from the Koran that says women must do this. I appreciate that some muslim males are jealous of their wives, and indeed some muslim females believe it is their right (and represents a desirable way of life) to hide in a head-to-toe black bag.

But we begin to suspect some of all this is a political game, a way of trying to “establish” a muslim power base in the west. After all, if a muslim female walked down the street dressed in what we in the west might call normal attire she would not be noticed. She would be just another citizen. But being obviously “different” becomes a visible symbol of what some Islamists want. Or what they believe is best for women.

Now, I have no problem with beliefs. Rational people ought to be free to believe what they wish. In spiritual matters, some things are hard to prove though they probably give a person comfort. But at no point does one person having a set of beliefs outweigh another person’s beliefs or lack of them. One cannot be offended because others do not grasp what may seem essentially true to one person, however foolish they may appear. Beliefs are largely transient or ephemeral; a passion of one’s youth for example is often replaced with other outlooks later.

Now, recent events (at least over the past 20 years) have suggested that not all muslims are as trustworthy as we may like. They may or may not be as trustworthy as any other group, but some people have begun to think there is an agenda going on here. The matter of the Burqa is a symbol, of showing what can be imposed on others. Indeed, some muslims believe that until their set of beliefs is rigorously imposed on the world there can be no peace.

If we project these ideas into the greater world, are we meant to believe that because the Burqa is seen as an ideal method of dress, then until the Burqa is imposed on a ll women then we cannot have a fair society?

Given that Islam is riven with bloodshed (despite its claim to be the ‘religion of peace’ there is not much evidence yet that peace is often applied. The vast majority of violent muslim deaths are caused by other muslims) it’s hard to know if hastening all our females into the all-in-one would mean we are safe from threats.

There is also the matter of not knowing if any of these muslim females feel pressured into dressing this way, or even are scared to not wear this uniform. I have no doubt a good number of faithful and loyal muslim wives enjoy the Burqa, and there is a certain attraction in walking round in complete anonymity. As for security and face images, such as in banks or in driver documents, perhaps there is good cause to show the face.

And I would like to assure many muslim men that they can rest assured that as a male, I really have no desires or uncontrollable urges if I see their woman’s face or her ankle. Trust me, I simply don’t get off on seeing a naked forearm, so they are safe with me.

There are numerous issues of practicality, of non-vocal communication, as well as those of recognition. there are huge issues of freedom of action. There are also cases of women wearing obliged to adopt this manner of dress to satisfy some male muslims political ideals.

All of which leaves the Burqa issue one that will not go away.

But just as we have beaches where people can wear very little, perhaps there should be areas in certain countries – probably middle-eastern countries – where Burqa wearing is approved. Their choice. My problem is I don’t want to see the latter on the streets of my city, and I never want to see it imposed on my wife, daughter or my future granddaughters should they appear.

And above all there is the equality issue. If it is so desirable for muslim females to be covered up, then why not males? The fact that muslim men get a free pass to dress as they wish is, frankly offensive when they want their women covered entirely.

But for some reason, the west with its claims of gender equality has never quite noticed this…

Jun 27, 2009 - 2:34 pm 15. George Jochnowitz:

We all know that the Left puts anti-Zionism above all other issues. Leftist feminists are typically insensitive to atrocities against women since they know that Islamists are anti-Israel. But the extreme right is often indistinguishable from the extreme left. I just learned from the June 20th issue of The Economist that there is a far-right party in Hungary called Jobbik. Its leader, a feminist named Krisztina Morvai, is ferociously anti-Semitic and anti-Israel. As one says in French, Les extremes se touchent (Extremes meet).

Jun 27, 2009 - 2:45 pm 16. Carol Gould:

I was in a cafe in Knightsbridge a few weeks ago and a Muslim man with three wives in tow came in. They were fully covered except for eye slits. He loudly ordered them to sit and then ordered their food. he bellowed at them and they sat in silence as he shouted on his cellphone. It was like seeing a man with three dogs on leashes. I wanted to scream. There has been much gnashing of teeth in Britain about Sarkozy’s proposals. Next will orthodox men in heavily Jewish Stamford Hill be forbidden from wearing long coats and tall wooolly hats? British people have been vociferous in oppposing the eruv. As a woman I find the subservience that goes with being a covered wife dragged around London by a strutting husband offends me. My mother and aunt marched in the US Army in 1943 and led successful lives, my aunt a career woman and what we used to call a ’spinster.’ ; seeing these Muslim women in burkhas is a journey back to the middle ages.

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:12 pm 17. Omar:

“By separating the girls from society so young and so consistently, they are making these girls extremely dependent upon their family and insular community making ‘deviant’ behavior that much more unlikely.”
__________________

These outfits are physical markers indicating submission to islamic law. . . . The men/enforcing women must make the marker as obligatory and universal as possible, precisely so that they can recognize the non-submitting, “deviant” woman, and bring her back into compliance, or, if she refuses, treat her accordingly, (by beating her into submission (if necessary) per Q 4:34, or if she continues to disobey, treat her as if she is outside the covenant of islamic law, i.e. an apostate woman who may killed or imprisoned with impunity, or sexually assaulted (since refusing to don appropriate islamic dress is often a defense to rape). . . . Catmeat sheik, Down Under, is a good illustration of this kind of shariah based thinking.

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:13 pm 18. RebeccaH:

I don’t agree that the hijab should be banned, as I view it much the same as an Orthodox Jewish woman wearing a wig, or an Amish woman wearing a prayer cap. But I do agree with doing away with the full-body burqa, if only because of identification issues (and because I simply don’t like seeing women completely erased from existence as a human being). As for the chador, or the Palestinian overcoat and hijab, I have mixed feelings. Their customs should be respected, but on the other hand, retail businesses have had major problems with shoplifting, and prisons with smuggling contraband (you could smuggle a piano under those things!).

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:15 pm 19. Marie Claude:

you’ve got to worry in the US too

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=51579560536

Jun 27, 2009 - 3:27 pm 20. Solkhar:

Ms Chesler, yes honor killings is a horrible thing that must be stamped out. There is no doubt.

The issue though, as you put it, is wrong. It is not a Muslim thing, it is a cultural thing that Arabs (Christian Arabs do the same thing), Turks (again Christians as well) many in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, Russia, India and I suspect many other places.

Stereotyping it as being Muslim is unjustified, but there is justice in putting it to those Muslim communities with this sick cultural habit to stop it. As CNN reported today, Morocco changed and ehanced its archaic laws protecting women and families in 2004 that is now a first (and I hope a beginning) for the Muslim World. Interesting, the change to fair and equal rights for women, that is under Islamic principles, has not resulted in an increase in the Arab majority Moroccan comunity in honor killings. A good very good sign.

12# “what can be assessed as dark age trappings of the muslim faith are fine….” Actually the burqa is the trappings of the dark-age Arab tribal custom and is not Islamic at all. The Hijab, on the other had is a conservative Islamic value that within a conservative environment is considered, by most Muslim women as a morality issue and prefer to wear it. They certainly should have that right.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:01 pm 21. Carol:

I have no answers. I think all of the issues raised are extremely compelling and complex. I would place this particular question quite high on the list of challenges we face as a world where people move travel abd relocate so we have many cultures in places that were/are not the place where that ethnic or cultural group typically resides in large numbers.

I view the burqa as a unique challenge precisely because it covers the entire body and face. The person can see you, but you cannot see them, not to mention how things (including weapons) can be concealed underneath all the fabric. I don’t know what the answer is but I look forward to reading more of Ms. Chesler’s views on the subject and reading other comments on the matter.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:02 pm 22. nemogbr:

Thank you for this article.

In Britain, the case for and against the Burka has so many pitfalls. Apparently France does not have this problem, due to the French killing all this Priests, whilst the British ended up with a state religion.

I have had arguments over the internet regarding the banning of the burqa and women have defended the rights of women to wear them.

I posed the question. Would a Burqa clad woman ever be voted into Parliament?

They avoided the question by saying that they would vote for an intelligent woman.

Doesn’t answer the question.

Jun 27, 2009 - 4:26 pm 23. Torqued Marine (USMC):

Let us not forget that all those who stand up in this country and protect these murderers are the very ones who try to shut us freedom loving Christians, conservatives, gun owners, etc. down. They are also the next target of these murders, Gays,women working in Government, and those who stand up for the rights of the same will be next.

I do not care if it is here in the U.S. or over there, murder is murder and it needs to be stopped no matter what it costs.

Mr. Bam-Bam wants to have peaceful talks with them. The only kind of talk these idiots understand is the click of the gun. They will either stop, or they will die. IT TRULY IS THAT SIMPLE. If they are all dead problem solved.

And don’t tell me we need to just be more understanding. You can save that for when they are raping or murdering your family.

Semper Fi

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:53 pm 24. Marie Claude:

“the French killing all this Priests”

hu ???

Jun 27, 2009 - 5:53 pm 25. Saltherring:

Dave @ 12:

American feminists are much to busy supporting macabre groups such as Emily’s List, an abortion industry PAC, to hear the cries of abused and tormented Muslim women. The souls of murdered Muslim women plead for justice alongside babies butchered in the name of “choice”. One day God will act on behalf of these forgotten innocents.

Jun 27, 2009 - 6:38 pm 26. Jim Baker:

Whew! At least none of them got waterboarded. As we all get told repeatedly, that is real torture!

Jun 27, 2009 - 6:45 pm 27. njcommuter:

Killing without justification is murder. Murder should be punished, and, when accompanied by aggravating factors such as premeditation and the duties and trust of a familial relationship, should be punished by death. And, since these killings are done to escape ’shame’, the executions should be by public hanging, on a well-soaped rope with a drop properly calibrated.

Jun 27, 2009 - 9:36 pm 28. Lynn B.:

I reiterate, every Muslim woman I have ever known has had a black eye, usually followed closely by wearing hijab. I don’t believe for one instant any of them made that choice on their own. Just another man made invention to control and dehumanize women. If one wants to wear a head covering or veil in church, synagogue or mosque that’s fine, but in public schools, the dmv, courts and all other secular places they need to be banned completely. Period. Any cleric who calls women meat and says they deserve to get raped should be deported for incitment to rape. It should be stressed, when immigrating to the US, we are an ethnically diverse country not a multicultural country.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:30 pm 29. Lynn B.:

Oh, and thank you Ms. Chesler for coming back to this subject consistently. In the words of Wafa Sultan, “I don’t care if you worship stones, just don’t throw them at me”.

Jun 27, 2009 - 10:37 pm 30. mac:

Torqued Marine,

You nailed it dead solid perfect.

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:18 am 31. whataloadacrap08:

Honor killings? What a twisted way of looking at the world! However, it is to be expected of Islam, a religion where clerics debate the finer points of having underage sex with family members would naturally condone actions as hideous as this!
Oh, and please don’t say that it’s only the lunatic fringe of Islam, and Christian fundies are just as bad, because I’m sick of hearing those lies. When is the last time you heard of a Christian parent killing his own daughter with a butcher knife because she went to the Senior Prom, huh?
Islam isn’t a religion, it’s a Middle Eastern blood cult that needs to be stamped out!

Jun 28, 2009 - 12:21 am 32. David Thomson:

What if someone covering their face wanted to use the ladies room? How could you be fairly certain the individual was not a disguised male? I may in principle believe that a woman should be able to wear a burqa, niqab, or hijab. Nonetheless, I am finding so many reasonable exceptions—that it’s obvious that such women would constantly be inconvenienced in regular society. It’s just not practical. These females would definitely live a fairly marginalized existence.

Jun 28, 2009 - 1:12 am 33. chicago:

“‘Some people believe that Muslim immigrants must be educated about our laws and must sign an agreement to follow them.’ — Yes, and so should every other immigrant. ”

sign an agreement? I’m sorry but, if immigrants come here without understanding that they are subject to the laws of the country they’re visiting then they shouldn’t have come.

when an american visits other countries, they are expected to follow that country’s laws and face the consequences if they break it.

we already have laws against murder/homicide. there’s no room for debate on this – anyone who commits murder should be punished under the law. what’s there to debate about?

and I am an immigrant. I entered legally (it’s frustrating that immigrants need to say that they entered legally, if you’re an immigrant you entered legally, if you entered illegally then you’re an illegal alien. years ago an alien granted legal residency was stated to have been given immigrant status, now, the word has been bastardized. so let’s use it properly, legal aliens are immigrants, illegal aliens are not immigrants), served the military, pay my taxes, follow the rule of law, and ASSIMILATED into American society while still proud of my ethnicity.

those immigrants or illegal aliens that can’t do the same shouldn’t even think about leaving their home country.

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:52 am 34. chicago:

“We should not enact an outright ban the burqa.”

I agree with David Thomson. religious identification should not be banned, may it be it the burqa, a cross, or a menorah. at the same token, we see more and more of Government censorship of prayer and other christian practices in public places. where’s the equality in that.

Christians are expected to respect other religions and for the most part we do, yet censorhip of Christian practices are becoming the norm in the US….how equitable is that?

I agree that the burqa should not be banned, it’s an individuals choice to follow their religious traditions, yet if Christian traditions are to be banned from public, then all religious traditions should be banned including the burqa.

Jun 28, 2009 - 3:00 am 35. Perry:

Why must we torture ourselves trying to understand the barbarity of Muslims?

Islam is incompatible with Western values and Shari’a law (which overrides all other laws for Muslims) is antithetical to our Constitution.

There is no place for Islam in our liberal-democratic society.

Jun 28, 2009 - 4:43 am 36. Perry:

Omar:

Thank you. You add weight to my previous post.

Jun 28, 2009 - 4:54 am 37. Lynn:

I spend moments after hearing these stories wondering what it must be like to fear your parents, religion, culture, custom, community, country, leaders. It must be like a prison inside and out.

Living hell.

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:27 am 38. Time Traveller:

The “prophet” Muhammed – I laugh (and cringe) every time I hear that. Muhammed was a murderous thug; a slaughterer of men and women. Once you, too, call that to mind each time you hear about Muslim atrocities, it’s easy to believe anything about their “religion,” which is not a religion at all but, instead, is a system for empowering otherwise worthless mongrels, like the troglodytes that commit honor killings.

Muslims aren’t living in Western society in the usual way; they’re infesting it. Even moderate Muslims (hah) have said, over and over again, how they intend to impose Shariah law on all of us. Wake up. Put all your politically correct hogwash aside.

If you want to see what they intend for all of us, visit:

http://media.terrorismawareness.org/files/MPAC.swf

Witness actual photos of the Muslim’s quaint practice of beheading little Christian girls, just because they couldn’t fight back. It’s time we fought back. Ban Islam from the West. Begin now to deport each and every one of them. Let them have their caliphate in the land of goats, camels, and left hands for toilet paper. Every day that we allow them and their ideas to infect our ways of thinking is one day too many.

Jun 28, 2009 - 7:10 am 39. Strawman:

Here’s what everyone’s dancing around, but not willing to come out and say: the Muslims who do this are engaged in cult-like behavior. In theory, any cult based on any traditional or non-traditional religion can and probably will develop into this kind of authoritarian conduct. Non-Islamic cults have. But for every one of them, there are hundreds of examples of Islam as justification for a Jim Jones kind of authoritarianism.

If we’re going to deal with this legally, we need a crisp red line to distinguish religions from cults. Yes, this is a slippery slope. If we can’t do that, we’re resigned to accept this.

Islam isn’t necessarily a cult, but it does seem to have by far the largest number of cultists subscribing to it.

Now watch the trolls jump all over this comment with their “the Christians do it too” drivel.

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:21 am 40. Barbara:

The most wonderful thing about America WAS that we were a “melting pot.” Anyone could be an American and anyone could prosper in America. All you needed was determination, grit, and a will to work hard. Now, we call bad things good and good things bad. Our forefathers are spinning in their graves. Let us not let another election go by without doing our own due diligence on each and every politician in office at the present moment.

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:33 am 41. Barbara:

Forgive me for not really addressing the article. Sometimes I get carried away and the connections are in my head but not in my hands. Let’s not forget that our esteemed president thinks it is the “right” of women to wear the burqa if they “want” to wear it. I think I might “want” to wear it too if I thought my dad or brother would kill me for not wearing it!

Jun 28, 2009 - 9:40 am 42. Mitzi Alvin:

Awhile ago, a Michigan judge refused to hear the lawsuit of a Muslim woman because the woman would not remove a covering that, except for the eyes, hid her entire face. Accusations of bias and Islamophobia flew through the air. But I believe the judge acted correctly and the in the best interests of common justice. A fair trial requires the fullest disclosure possible, and, as British minister Jack Straw observed, facial expressiveness and demeanor are vital in assessing an individual’s character and intentions, not to mention establishing clear identity. The woman did say she would remove her veil before a female judge, but, well-intentioned as her offer may have been, it would not solve the problem for it would set a precedent that is surely impractical and probably impracticable. Certainly, there are all kinds of instances where “facing” a male in a legal issue is crucial to the procedure. Moreover, as a country that separates church and state we cannot, and should not, have a two-tiered legal system in order to accommodate a particular confession.

I, actually, would go even further. I believe that the total religious veil (be it burka or naquib) ought to be illegal. Just for starters, it is hazardous to the wearer’s safety and well-being as it impedes peripheral vision and inhibits access to healthful sunshine (vitamin D). Further, it poses obvious security concerns and presents a host of obstacles to social intercourse. But most important, it is a form of female bondage.

The symbolism is unmistakable. Responsibility for male sexual aggression is placed squarely onto the female. The full veil makes explicit the tacit understanding in Islam’s male-privileged culture that all women are sexually compromised, whether through assault, indiscetion, personal volition, or sheer female desirablity. In matters of sexual violation, a crime of utmost gravity, the presumption of guilt always falls upon the woman. Somehow, it is assumed, the modesty requirements have either been neglected or transgressed. If the male is tempted, it is because the female has preyed upon his sexual vulnerability. Veiling is, at base, a premptive punishment for women whose nature it is to “adorn themselves with trinkets,” and who are “powerless in disputation,” sura 43:11. In other words, women are so vain and stupid they must not only be disarmed (or decharmed) in order to protect men, they must also be protected from themselves. But the use of the full veil goes one step further than the usual prophylactic safeguards. It punishes by putting, in effect, a woman, who may only show her face in the private quarters of family or friends, under permanent house arrest. Thus male control over the dangerous female body is established comprehensively and unequivocally.

As Americans, we want to give appropriate respect to all religions. But a line must be drawn between a broadminded acceptance of difference and the mindless indulgence of difference for its own sake. For too many, tolerance has become less a considered principle than a reactive superstition. Although I find the head scarf and body-covering clothing demeaning, I understand that 1400 years of tradition cannot be instantly swept away by the claims of modern feminist argument. But I have to hope that we would not contenance wife-beating because it is prescribed by Muslim scripture or stoning because it has been hallowed by Islamic justification. In the same vein, it should also be unacceptable to deny women a public face. This prohibition is not only unwarrented censorship, but a clear demonstration of female subjugation. If the veil is preemptive punishment, it is also preemptive humiliation, reduction to a demeaned status and the anonymity of slavery. Ultimately a woman becomes one with her veil, an erased identity.

The Muslim woman who claimed she was denied her day in court may feel that shrouding herself in yards of cloth makes a statement of identification that she willingly undertakes. But, were the custom of full veiling to become prevalent, many more Muslim women would be pressured or physically coerced into compliance. Furthermore, the barefaced rest of us would be marked off as degraded and put at risk of being considered legitimate sexual prey–or as an Australian imam recently put it,”uncovered meat.” Nor is it outlandish to envision eventual neighborhoods where women with naked faces would be afraid to go. (a similar condition with regard to female dress does exist in some Scandinavian countries where the Muslim population is high.) But, even if only a few adopt the full veil, the sight of it is an affront to all women. To have certain members of this nation turned into walking ciphers or faceless shadows, subdued to a code of behavior that is inimical, in its proofs and in its essence, to the norms of an open society, is a blow to our cultural integrity. Worse, it is easy to see how this code could expand into a subversive allegiance to Sharia Law creating, within the greater group, a counter-society of repression and incremental hostilitly. Freedom, in the name of religious tolerance, to follow bigoted practices only serves to undermine the traditions of freedom. Blacking out a woman’s face is not, as Muslims often claim, an honor. It is a manifestation of profound misogyny and should not be acceptable to a nation that believes in equality under the law. The one thing tolerance can’t tolerate is intolerance.

Jun 28, 2009 - 11:59 am 43. myth buster:

Forget the senior prom, when was the last time you heard a Christian fundamentalist killed his daughter because she got pregnant out of wedlock. Worst case scenario? He tries to force her and the baby’s father to get married.

Jun 28, 2009 - 1:11 pm 44. Marie Claude:

Stop Islamist oppression of women Pat Condell (video)

http://bit.ly/9XkeY

“No burqas in the land of bikinis”(Asia times)funny how people likes to pick the extreme to justify their opinion there, this argument often comes in muslim papers, or the nuns

http://bit.ly/5mCxW

Jun 28, 2009 - 1:14 pm 45. Torqued Marine (USMC):

30. mac:

Thanks Mac, I just call it like I see it.

Jun 28, 2009 - 1:25 pm 46. LittleRed1:

I’m curious about the honor killings by Arab Christians? Where and when? Evidence please? I’ve not heard of any in my prowling of the Internet, but that may mean I’ve not gone to the correct sources.

I think the full or half-face veil should be banned on grounds of public safety. You can’t drive safely, criminal males have used burquas as disguises to rob banks and assault people, and since Catholic sisters and Orthodox women don’t veil, it is not a matter of modesty. Cover your hair, certainly fine. Wear overcoats and headscarves, fine. But no hiding the face, for any reason. (OK, mask for medical reason is a valid exception.)

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:28 pm 47. Carol:

I think that anyone writing about this subject does a disservice to those women who are victimaized by referring the these murders as “honor killings.” Why adopt the expression put forth by the perpetrators? Why not call it for what it is: Murder. If not that, then at least add a caveat by calling them “so-called honor killings.” We needn’t embrace the sordid, twisted language and concepts of others.

Jun 28, 2009 - 2:41 pm 48. Violet:

I completely agree with #23 and #38! I especially agree that Islam should be banned from all non-Islamic countries. There are about five million Muslims in France alone! There are millions more all over the world! Think of all the space we’d have left for ourselves if only we could kick them all out. Our governments give Muslims rights that we as non-Muslims would never be granted were we living in Islamic countries. Call me intolerant, call me a bigot if you wish. I have lived long enough around Muslims to see firsthand what they are like and I do not wish to live around them any longer.

I often think back to my Sicilian heritage when I think of Muslim honor killings. In it’s history, Sicily was under Muslim rule for centuries before coming back under Christian rule. Misogynistic views still continue in modern day Sicily as a result. The honor killings of ‘disobedient’ girls and women was still an issue a couple of decades ago. It was lawful for a man to kill his wife or daughter if she disobeyed him or did not behave accordingly.

My mother still talks fondly of her father who would threaten to beat or kill her if she wore makeup or threaten to scratch off the clear nail polish off her nails with a knife. He once cut up her hot pants so she would not be able to wear them. According to her, this is how a true man treats his daughter or his wife.

When I was a child, my brother, my mother and myself passed an army shop with various knives on display. My brother, who was only about five or six pointed at a knife and turned to me, “Do you see that knife? One day that will be for you if you misbehave”. My mother beamed with pride. Until this day, my brother hates women and has a propensity of violence towards them. He has been violent to my mother, my grandmother and myself.

We’re Roman Catholic! This is the sort of mentality that is still prevalent in Sicily and the Christian culture is certainly not to blame! But what do I know? I’m just an intolerant, bigoted, and racist Westerner.

Jun 28, 2009 - 3:10 pm 49. Perry:

Rebecca H, your moral equivalency is repugnant.

Never – never! – is a jew stoned to death for refusing to wear a kippa. Too often, a Muslim female is FORCED to wear Islamic garb, and killed if she refuses.

It’s not the traditional clothing that matters, it’s the force used upon people to wear it, or else.

It’s not the clothing, it’s the culture, the belief system, that is under discussion.

Open your eyes wide!

Jun 28, 2009 - 5:25 pm 50. agn:

Ms. Chesler:

Thank you for an informative article.

Unfortunately, a mistake in dates have occurred in reference to the murder of Vian Fatah in Norway.

She was killed 3. July 2008, not this June.

Regards,
Arild

Jun 29, 2009 - 8:06 am 51. Listen up:

Islam is full of trickery. They feel no regret about their trickery if it gets them what they want. Their code of ethics, or so called laws are nothing like the laws found in Judo Christian religions and their governments. Males especially feel empowered by their islamic culture. They will control their women or they will kill them. In islam this is acceptable because in islam men are in control. When muslim males encounter problems with their women in western cultures they do not bother to change their mind set because still they feel entitled to treat women as they wish, who will stop them? Western courts will tsk tsk and lightly punish them. Western courts appear to fear them. The muslim looks forward to the day when shia law will be part of the system in western countries where they live. When this happens muslim women ( maybe all women) will enjoy the same lack of freedom that is available to muslim women in Iran, Saudi Arabia and other muslim countries. Now does this not make you want to lobby hard in your nation to bring shia law in to being? Never trust a muslim is good advice to the westerner, even fellow muslims cannot trust muslims, certainly female muslims cannot trust their brothers and fathers. What insanity islam is!

Jun 29, 2009 - 11:03 am 52. Delia:

When religion becomes a brain-washing ‘requirement’ rather than a free choice, yes, ban the Burka/Burqa.

When a young girl grows up being indoctrinated by a supposed ‘religion’ that subjugates her, there is no ‘freedom’ of choice in ANYTHING EVER.

There is no such thing as ‘freedom of choice’ when there is no ‘freedom’ at all to begin with. When ‘fear’, ‘hate’ and ‘loathing’ are the core base of a religion, nothing good can come of it and no person living under that ‘regime’ can be free to ‘think’ or ‘act’ for themselves outside of that narrow mindeset.

Viva freedom for ALL people.

Jun 29, 2009 - 11:24 am 53. roff:

the problem is a global one. hijab here niqab there beheading everywhere. america or any other civilized nation that allows the whole ideology to take root will be literally openning the gates of hell the hannibal lechter en masse. this may sound a bit off but in reality it is not. having lived half my young and adult life in 3 mideastern countries ,i have a sharp birdseye view of the whole pathological mentality and culture and ten books wouldnt be able to describe to the layman the multiple layers of psychopathology entrenched in the young minds of the victims of this so called religion and the hidden brainwashing is continuously nurtured in adulthood . western culture , open minded, mostly civil and grossly naiive can be easily fooled used and abused by these vicious minded hordes. depending on demographics, their most powerful yet insiduous WEAPON, these people will seem mild at first then as the numbers grow they become loud and boistrous using anything in the lawbook to make small gains and privileges given to no one else in the courts and as their creeping islamization continues along with the numbers they are ready to take over even via multiple civil wars as in cyprus, lebanon, kosovo sudan nigeria and all along their usually bloody interface with any other culture they cant outright subjugate or conquer.
the dehumanization abuse pedophilia rape and murder of women along with seclusion and minimal rights are big factors in propagating this dangerous belief and way of life where a mother needs her male sons approval to go to market(no exaggeration) in many of the horrifically unfortunate countries that have gone fully islamic under pressure from the aggressive sector which insists on literally following this ideology. the hijab and other soul killing practices are an integral part of the mental pathology that is transmitted both formally and intergenerationally in subtle experiential unconscious forms . thus the hijab along with genital mutilation , along with psychotic proportion male dominance along with seclusion indoors for some or tight control of every aspect of a females life since infancy all make for the propagation and perpetuation of this cruel inhuman mindset. the boys are also mutilated genitally at sensitive ages that foster hatred against the mother at some level in many of them. on top of it the boy is initially allowed to love or respect the mother, but as he grows up he sees her treated as a slave with beatings allowed at the discretion of the husband. he is told that women are half brains and sexual demons so they have to be covered. they on top of it all are impure, along with other things such as non moslems dogs pigs urine and feces in some traditions of this “religion”. at best women are AWRAs ie genitals!!!!! ie a womans hair face, breasts arms legs are all genitals to be covered and loathed as ugly, as sources of shame if flashed perhaps stirring some whiff of sexuality and to be “protected from sexually “lured” males. thus everything about the woman is evil and their prophet attested in his grand psychedelic vision that on his magical trip to heaven riding buraq a half woman half horse, he “saw” that most of the tenants of hell were women!!!!
i urge anyone shocked by these tidbits to go research this hellish dogma yourself from the sources not propagandist introductions or half wits who claim to be authorities. go to their”holy” book itself. the bio of their founder and core accepted texts translated to most languages. remember the texts are revered and treated as immutable, so dot be surprised to read revolting stories originating centuries ago yet believed as a “holy” way of life to be practiced today and emulated by all these “believers”- a billion or more-. by recent polls at least a few hundred million are willing to go all the way in their religious behavior ie eye gouging limb chopping decapitating etc for no real crime or flimsy offenses. the rest of the billion foolishly considered harmless, moderate or civilized will actually be regular seeming people who you may know as friends and neighbors, yet when atrocities hit innocents, they remain silents, are too yellow to do anything about it. most of them are cheering the fundamentalist crime in their hearts and worst of all , they couldnt object to the heinous atrocities as these have been committed in true form ,- by the book- so here if these “poor moderates” objected, they would be easily labelled as apostates ie turncoats and be halal to murder them again by the book by any co religionist. deep inside there can not be a moderate moslem. by definition if they are really “moderate” by fellow human standards , then they are not following all the tenets of this horrific ideology. again, no exaggeration. research it for yourself. just look at some sites as faithfreedom.org or islam-watch or jihadwatch or better still go straight to the original texts and get shocked and awakened on your own.thus you become the expert, not the yellow livered or deceitful experts such as esposito or karen armstrong or a host of liars. sorry. spade +spade here.
good luck. ban the hijab .ban the whole mad ideology

Jun 29, 2009 - 1:37 pm 54. Delia:

Women give birth to humanity. Without the ‘womb’ this earth would go to hell in a hand-basket. It’s high time we are shown some respect and if ANY religion treats women like second class citizens then those religions should be void and null.

Look at places like China where ‘boys’ are ‘revered’ and because women are only allowed ‘one’ child they abort their ‘girls’ in hopes for a ‘boy’ and the joke is on them because now there are very few ‘girls’ for the ‘boys’. Pathetic.

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:05 pm 55. ran zev:

The problem with banning the wearing of the burka is that I am sure there a significant number of muslim women that actually want to wear the burka and preventing them from doing so is clearly an infringment of their freedom of religious expression. In considering whether the burka should be banned in the United States and other western nations, we need to assertain whether protecting muslim women who are intimidated into wearing the burka or put themselves at risk for refusing to do so justifies the infringment on religious expression. The answer to this question is yes only if there is relable evidence that suggests a ban on the burka would indeed prevent abuse and violence aganist Muslim women. It must be shown that in many instances, a muslim woman who suffers abuse, psychological or physical, or worse is murdered, would not have suffered this fate had the wearing of the burka been prohibited. The problem is that it is very difficult, perhaps impossible, to estimate the true effectiveness of such a prohibition. We have France as a case model and that could be the key to shedding light on the issue.

So in my opinion, absent solid, reliable evidence that banning the Burka would have the hoped for impact, the intrusion into religious freedom is too big a boulder to move.

Ran Zev

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:24 pm 56. agn:

Another nasty, Norwegian honour killing case happened 1. october 2006:

Shahzad Khan used an axe to murder his three sisters, Sobia (aged 27), Saadia (aged 24) and little Nasifa (aged 13).

This horrifying case may not be an entirely typical honour killing case, since no ghoulish family council deliberating the murder occurred.

Instead, Shahzad’s family (among them his brother) had been worried over his mental health for some time, and asked the psychiatric clinic for advice.

However, Shahzad WAS recognized as “the head of the family” here in Norway, after his father had retired to Pakistan.

Clearly, he was unsuited to play the role of the patriarch who wielded authority, and crumbled mentally within that role.

But then again, who has said that the traditional, patriarchal Pakistani family structure is a sound, social structure in the first place??

Here is a link to a Norwegian article upon the triple murder (after his conviction in 2007):

http://www.nettavisen.no/innenriks/article1339488.ece

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:45 pm 57. Oscar the Grump:

The quickest way to stop the practice of wearing burqas is to make the men in that group wear them too.

Jun 29, 2009 - 3:53 pm 58. SukieTawdry:

Let’s see if Lynn Rosenthal, Obama’s new advisor on Violence Against Women, will address this. Any bets?

Jun 29, 2009 - 7:23 pm 59. Delia:

57. Oscar the Grump:

“The quickest way to stop the practice of wearing burqas is to make the men in that group wear them too.”

I agree. Can you imagine ‘men’ having to wear those nasty things in the hot, baking sun of the desert? HA! Talk about ‘torture’. Hmpf!

I have personally been molested as a child by males and later raped as a 17 year old woman. I know what it is like to be mentally and physically to the point where I have been close to losing my mind but, I never let my ‘abusers’ break my spirit.

There are some very strong, brave women in this world and Phyllis, I write this with tears streaming down my cheeks because I know you take a lot of risks speaking from your heart, but, thank you, thank you for being STRONG and COURAGEOUS and speaking up for WOMEN and MEN and CHILDREN from ALL walks of life who suffer under tyranny, abuse and cruelty.

THANK YOU.

Jun 29, 2009 - 7:27 pm 60. Delia:

58. SukieTawdry:

“Let’s see if Lynn Rosenthal, Obama’s new advisor on Violence Against Women, will address this. Any bets?”

lol. Sukie, leave it to you to make me laugh through my tears.

Bets? 0bama hates everyone but the man in the mirror.

Jun 29, 2009 - 7:30 pm 61. agn:

“The quickest way to stop the practice of wearing burqas is to make the men in that group wear them too.”

That has already been done, in the case of the niqab.

The fanatical Berber sect the Almoravids, who terrorized Morocco and Andalusia in the late 11th, early 12th centuries, prescribed the facial covering of males.

Still, they were a nasty lot, so I don’t think your (or, rather, Pat Condell’s) advice will help.

Jun 30, 2009 - 1:22 am 62. KRB:

A young women or girl doesn’t have to know her attacker. Some of these attacks take place when one family merely doesn’t accept the marriage proposal of another family. This rejection is seen as justification to seek vengeance and a means of restoring damaged honor.

Jun 30, 2009 - 9:08 am 63. Wancow:

39. Strawman, the problem is that islam cannot exist in a democratic society without fighting to undermine and destroy it. To be subject to anything other than “God’s Law” is is to live in a state of war.

When a muslim says “Al Salaam Alaykum”, which means “Peace Be Upon You,” he is wishing for you to be subject to islam, either by voluntary or involuntary submission. Peace, so far as Islam is concerned, cannot exist outside of of an Islamic State.

Jun 30, 2009 - 10:49 am 64. Tim:

Can we please play Cowboys and Moslems now?

Jun 30, 2009 - 11:40 am 65. Troll # 237:

See? Mercans do it too!

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/sfl-smoking-drenched-bn063009,0,6351412.story

You wingnuts are just a buncha redneck trailer-trash islamophobes. We progressives would never treat anyone like a second-class citizen just for smoking. This was as bad as waterboarding!

Jun 30, 2009 - 2:13 pm 66. toker53:

So then Peace cannot exist at all. This belief is inconsistent with peace since within the Islamic State there appears to be constant unrest, either among the people, with other Muslims,Suunni v shia or with the infidels such as myself. See you at the atomic barbecue.

Jun 30, 2009 - 2:53 pm 67. Steynian 369 « Free Canuckistan!:

[...] A FRENZY of Honor Killings …. [...]

Jun 30, 2009 - 6:13 pm 68. watchingandwaiting:

our muslim dogma is for power grabbing at all levels and blood on our hands is considered a good sign. be it our brother’s or mother’s or sister’s or father’s. it’s all about honor which translates into money. the less the relatives the more the money the murderer has.so the fighting and the bloodshed will never stop. to be muslim today is to recognise one’s self as A cursed human being… pure scum …very sad…very bad. I would be better dead as a muslim than as a living muslim because we muslims do not contribute anything to this planet except strife and hate which the rest of the planet somehow resents. all us muslims should realise this too and do the needfull for this planet and commit mass suicide and meet and greet each other in heaven and admire each other’s virgins there.

“There is no humor in Islam. There is no fun in Islam. There can be no fun and joy in whatever is serious.” – Ayatollah Khomeini

first things first …. the koran is not a holy book….it is the most evil and racist and sexist book ever written. it is a slur to the written word. it is an insult to human intelligence. have no doubt. read it to disbelieve it . all muslims should be trying to get out of islam’s clutches . all muslims should be trying to get out of islam’s clutches not only for their sake and their children’s sake but for the sake of their forefathers and foremothers who were converted to this evil and vile cult by the sword and fright. Forget Christianity if it’s such a big issue …muslims need to move out en masse to something like buddhism.
muslims should start realising that their forefathers were forced into this blood thirsty cult by blood and sword.they became muslims out of fear not because they loved islam. the new generation should set their forefathers’ mistakes right by getting out of islam en masse (in big groups) and returning to their old peacefull religions of their great great grand parents before the muslims came and turned their lives and morals upside down. whatever is preached in that cult is the exact opposite of what good people and citizens should be. start the change now. only the muslims can help themselves smash this evil cult that has got them and their women and children by the throats.

The west should be helping muslims with a free service or a nominal charged service which could trace each of their ancestral roots or religion practiced before they had to bow to allah or die horribly. Then the choice would be theirs to continue in this evil cult or opt out to what was their lifestyle or religion before the madness came. The service could be called BEFORE THE MADNESS . the educated west has to help these barbaric people see the light of peace and laughter so their children and women may appreciate the sunlight which is our planet’s birthright.

Jul 14, 2009 - 1:04 am 69. Abu Rashid:

Hello,

In your article you stated: “The cultural and/or religious imperative might prove too strong even for those who are living in the West”
—–
In fact there is absolutely no religious imperative for these brutal crimes. They are usually committed by very unreligious people and whilst intoxicated by alcohol (which is strictly forbidden in Islam). These crimes, whether carried out by Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Catholics (Latin America has a large number of honour killings, a fact that’s rarely publicised in the Christian West) or anyone else, are usually carried out by poorer, uneducated sectors of society who are steeped in tribalism (something again that Islam denounces, in fact Muhammad said “Tribalism is like a coal from the hellfire”).

You said: “Some people think that all Muslim fundamentalists or the families of Muslims who commit an honor killing should be deported from the West.”
—–
Contrary to what it might be easier to believe, it is highly unlikely a ‘fundamentalist’ would carry out an honour killing. They are usually carried out by people who are more steeped in cultural/traditional/tribal beliefs, rather than in puritanical Islamic beliefs. The fact is that Islamic law strictly forbids any such vigilante behaviour of summarily executing people based on suspicions, rumours or even first hand accounts.

Jul 23, 2009 - 2:06 am

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