Chesler Chronicles

October 12th, 2009 10:22 am

Western Justice for Honor Killers.

Updates on the Tulay Goren Trial in Old Bailey

When girls or women suddenly disappear, we tend to assume that they’ve been kidnapped by pedophiles or traffickers. Some people think they were probably prostitutes and either deserved to die or were, tragically, lured to their deaths by a serial killer.

We do not think they might have been killed by their own families. And, we always assume that the slavers are men. Both beliefs are wrong.

For example, in 1999, in a suburb north of London, a fifteen year old Kurdish Turk, Tulay Goren, suddenly disappeared. The family insisted that she had simply run away. Now, a decade later, her father, Mehmet Goren and her paternal uncles Cuma Goren and Ali Goren are on trial at the Old Bailey for her murder and for having conspired to kill her much older boyfriend, Halil Unal.

This case may be the first honor killing which the British police have re-opened after a decade and which they are now trying as an “honor killing.” There might be many more such cases, both here and all over the world. I am not usually one to praise the British but I will do so here. They are leading the European pack in terms of dealing with honor killings.

What was this poor child Tulay’s crime? She fell in love with a Sunni Muslim; Tulay was from the Alevi branch of the faith. Her father demanded that she take a “virginity test” and felt “dishonored, humiliated.” He punched and kicked her. Wisely, Tulay ran away from home twice and asked to be put in a children’s home. Tulay wanted to marry Halil (he had asked for her hand in marriage) but she had already been “promised” to her first cousin. Tulay moved in with Halil.

Halil, testifying behind a screen, told the court that Tulay’s father “beat her, tortured her.” He saw her bruises. Tulay also told him ‘Really, genuinely, I hate these people, I hate my house’.” Tulay also began sleeping with Halil and may (or may not) have been pregnant. This was raised as a possibility at trial but since Tulay’s body has never been found, this remains unknown.

Tulay’s mother, Hanim, sweet-talked her into returning home. Meanwhile, Tulay’s father consulted with his older and younger brothers on the matter and with their approval and encouragement, killed his daughter. He buried here body in the garden for about a week. Then, at least one of his brothers helped dispose of Tulay’s body which has never been found. At least fifteen family members attended a meeting which led to the decision to murder Tulay. Tulay was viewed as a “worthless commodity” who had shamed her entire family.

Now, her mother is testifying for the prosecution. Although she was sent away the night Tulay was murdered, Hanim has now recanted what she formerly told the police, namely that Tulay had run away. Now, Hanim admits that she noticed the “earth being disturbed in the garden, knives and bin-bags disappearing and her husband washing his shirt.” She has also testified to seeing a “deep injury” to her husband’s palm and her daughter’s clothes missing.

Sadly, Tulay tried to escape and was even able to warn her boyfriend which saved his life.

And, by the way: Mehmet Goren apparently had a hard time assimilating. He could not master the English language, had a gambling problem, and was never regularly employed. Thus, while Mehmet may or may not have been a religious fundamentalist (I can find no information about this), he and his family certainly upheld the cultural traditions of Kurdish Turks who are Muslims.

I have recently completed a major study about honor killings on five continents over the last twenty years which analyzed the fates of 230 victims in Europe, North America, and the Muslim world. Hopefully, it will be published in an academic journal in the near future; rest assured, the findings are very powerful as well as surprising.

But I will say this: Tulay’s case is a classic honor killing, one in which a fairly young girl—a female child really—is killed by multiple perpetrators, all members of her family of origin, especially her father, with her mother’s complicity. Her crime? She refused to marry her first cousin and dared to choose her own husband-to-be. Based on my own study, I suspect Tulay may have been stabbed multiple times, stabbed excessively—although this may remain unknown as long as her body is not discovered.

Tulay was assimilating, she was becoming “too westernized.” This alone is a capital crime. She imagined a future of her own, one not entirely chosen for her by her family. Tulay had to be stopped, an example had to be set so that other immigrant girls would not take this path and would continue consenting to arranged marriages to their first cousins so that they may “breed” acceptably inbred babies.

I wonder what influenced Tulay’s mother to now break with her entire family. What will the consequences of doing so be?

Tulay Goren: Rest in Peace.

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31 Comments

1. wayne:

You think the left here in the US really opposes this?

Hah!

They just wish Christians did it, too. Not only could they demonize us even more but they’d know in their hearts that it meant that one more genetic reproducer from a religiously fundamentalist racial / ethnic stock was removed from the gene pool.

Heck, the Moslems got a great legal shtick here if they got their heads around using it – change the name from “honor killings” to “retroactive abortions”. They could even claim they were trying to reduce their family’s carbon footprint. Our Libs would join the Sharia’ bandwagon in a minute.

Oct 12, 2009 - 11:34 am 2. Today’s Chesler Chronicles. | Vlad Tepes:

[...] short piece on the resurrection of the UK honour killing case involving a fifteen year old girl. Please click here to read it. I would very much like to read the results of her extensive research on ‘honour killing and [...]

Oct 12, 2009 - 11:39 am 3. David W. Lincoln:

The denial of Tulay Goren’s property rights, in the form of her being caged within a system that views her as suspicious, at best, and a danger at worst, is essentially what this is about.

Those who split the world into the Dar al Harb and the Dar al Islam claim to be monotheists, but their actions speak otherwise. For, if they were monotheists, everyone would have their property rights protected and then respected more often than what is the case of the Sons of Allah.

Oct 12, 2009 - 11:50 am 4. Jamie:

How is this really any different (except for the murder) than the kids (girls) leaving abusive homes all across our country specifically because of abuse. In WA state…. a parent (especially a controlling, manipulative one who might be sexually and or physically abusing the teen) can call the cops and have them labeled as a habitual runaway. The police will only hear the parents arguments… that the teen is just difficult and doesn’t want to follwo the rules… when really it’s because they have no other way to escape the abuse. Police in this country do not listen to kids. I don’t really think we have much room to judge when in this country we’re no better.
Things have to change!!! I can attest to these facts 1st hand as I have a teen trying to escape abuse that haas been reported over and over again to authorities for close to 20 years in the same state… yet you watch.. not what she has left the abusers home… I am sure they’ll try to force her right back into that home or punish her for trying to protect herself by tossing her in jail. Wow…. and then they wonder why kids are killing each other in schools. No brainer there!!

Oct 12, 2009 - 12:30 pm 5. George Jochnowitz:

David W. Lincoln,
There is no such thiong as a witch. Nevertheless, people convicted of the crime of witchcraft were burned in Europe and hanged in Massachusetts. Weren’t those who tried and executed them monotheists?
The single man being tried for witchcraft in Salem refused to testify at his trial, since he knew that he would be found guilty, as defendants always were in those days, and his family could not then inherit his property. He was pressed to death, according to the usage of that time, in a vain attempt to persuade him to talk.

Oct 12, 2009 - 1:29 pm 6. MiamaMan:

3. David W. Lincoln:

This is the second time lately you write about the differentiation between the Dar al Harb and the Dar al Islam, which is correct; however, allow me to disagree about monotheism.

What has monotheism to do with property rights, the Carta Magna, etc? I am sorry, it escapes me. Mono = One, Theo = God. There may be social implications in terms of property rights to different denominations, though.

The Muslim are definitely monotheists, as they worship one god they call Allah. That’s not the problem, the problem is really WHO end up being worshiped here. The Aztecs also worshiped a bloody god called Huitzilopochtli, they sacrificed thousands of victims in his name. When Mohammed Atta and his crew were approaching the twin towers in New York, the calls of Allahu Akbar…Who were they calling upon? Who answered? Who rejoiced? Surely, a Christian would say, well, that cannot be the Father of the Prince of Peace.

Likewise, Hitler worshiped a certain luminous, white, beautiful apparition (usually appearing at the Berghof in Berchtesgaden)whom he was sure was Providence, God. But he wasn’t. In this regard, I highly recommend a recent book written by my friend, Belgian writer Georges Van Vrekhem, a unique book named “Hitler and His God: The Background to the Hitler Phenomenon”, don’t miss it.
http://www.amazon.com/Hitler-His-God-Background-Phenomenon/dp/8129109530/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1255380413&sr=1-1-spell.

Oct 12, 2009 - 1:50 pm 7. Anonymous:

Hell, yes! As Sir Charles James Napier said about Suttee in India: “You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.”

Oct 12, 2009 - 2:00 pm 8. Laura:

Islam is a severe mental illness.

Oct 12, 2009 - 2:50 pm 9. Nozuf Goldencalf:

There is no greater advocate of the rights of women than Phyllis Chesler. Where she came to be at odds with feminist apparatchiks was when they failed to uphold the rights of women in dar-al-islam. Even for mainstream leftie Feminists, it seems the fundament of multiculturalism-that one does not criticize or judge actions of another culture- trumps the depraved manner with which women are treated and regarded under the rule of islam.

Oct 12, 2009 - 4:37 pm 10. David W. Lincoln:

George, to say there is no such thing as a witch
takes certain liberties that can only be viewed as selective vision.

Miami Man, I simply do not accept your orientation. One creator leads to one standard. So, given that there is diversity in the human race, as we see here in “To Kill a mockingbird”:
Thomas Jefferson once said that all men are created equal, a phrase that the government is fond of hurling at us. There is a tendency in this year of grace, 1935, for certain people to use that phrase out of context, to satisfy all conditions. We know that all men are not created equal in the sense that some people would have us believe. Some people are smarter than others, some people have more opportunity because they are born with it, some men have more money than others, and some people are more gifted than others. But there is one way in this country in which all men are created equal. An institution that makes a pauper the equal of a Rockefeller, the ignorant man the equal of any president, and the stupid man the equal of Einstein. That institution is the court. But a court is only as sound as its jury, and the jury is only as sound as the men who make it up.”

Ergo, amidst all this diversity, a just system
that provides the same protections to the poorest as to the richest, certain elements have to be in place. One is, equality of all before the law. Not a standard where Sir Sandford Fleming’s prospects changed because his father saved the life of a young Winston Churchill, elevating him from the dismal prospects that his father was familiar with to
the level that Randolph and Winston Churchill
were familiar with.

I am only giving this because you continue to reject where I am coming from, as I continue to reject where you are coming from.

So, Miami man, a stronger case for the dignity
of all, and not just those raised with a silver spoon in their mouth, stems from government having one standard for the respecting property rights of all.

For tribalism is at the heart of Islam, and one standard for all is at odds with it, so it is a case of which emerges triumphant.

Therefore, Miami Man, you are not giving an inch in what I have to say, and I am not giving an inch in what you have to say. Therefore, where you are coming from is better than where the Sons of Allah, but not as good as where I am coming from. Mortimer Adler is one of predecessors.

Oct 12, 2009 - 6:13 pm 11. Abby:

How can you say that some prostitutes might deserve to die? That’s a sick idea, lacking in any compassion. Do you think they want to be prostitutes? Most sex workers don’t have a choice, and don’t have any support system.

Oct 12, 2009 - 6:25 pm 12. logos1j1:

Nozuf, 9, and Phyllis, and etc.
Can I never get you to repent of this nonsense about “women’s rights” and forever being “…shocked, shocked…!” that “feminists are not consistent in defending the safety (let alone the dignity) of women?! If True Morality were followed no woman would ever be violated – nor man, nor child, nor unborn babe. So this is all that matters. I assure you these “feminists” care nothing for this young girl, her sufferings in life, or her horrifying death. And they are not unified with Islam merely in the great lie of “multiculturalism” but in their devotion to Falsity itself, to death, and to the destruction of the human race; and all of this stems from their hatred of God, (Proverbs 8:36), willful blindness to the Truth (Matthew 13:13-15) and willing deceit by the father of lies who always comes as “an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14.) whispering his “new morality” into their ears. The strange unity of these two groups – liberalism (including communism, Nazism, socialism and “feminism”) and Islam – are united by their common father: the Devil. So, as we saw before, the liberal Jew unites with Hamas, the “feminist” ignores the plight of this young girl and others like her, and etc.

Oct 12, 2009 - 9:01 pm 13. MiamaMan:

10. David W. Lincoln:

1) “Therefore, Miami Man, you are not giving an inch in what I have to say, and I am not giving an inch in what you have to say. Therefore, where you are coming from is better than where the Sons of Allah, but not as good as where I am coming from. Mortimer Adler is one of predecessors.”

Here you act as the court, the prosecutor, and the jury.

Still no explanation about the relationship between property rights and monotheism. I rest my case.

Oct 13, 2009 - 3:16 am 14. Lynn:

David W. Lincoln your writing was interesting. I have been thinking about the Establishment of this country, and it might not have been Jefferson’s thoughts, but just as you spoke of your opinion that all men are in a sense not really equal (smarter, richer, luckier, more gifted), in the Bill of Rights that thought is negated by the word Creator.

The wisdom of taking the worth of a man or woman away from other men or women is brilliance in itself, and FORCES the court to treat the accused so that the accuser must prove that person does not deserve life or liberty, endowed by a Creator and not mankind. The examples of trials for witchcraft are a testimony to the long slog toward discovery of the Nature of G_d. We are given hints of this throughout history, and some have taken note, others have turned their backs, and still more are learning.

I think other parts of the world are attempting to unite with the same sort of Constitution without Nature’s G_d or God’s Nature, and I think that they will be unsuccessful. As soon as we put the worth of a man/woman in the hands of other men/women the corruption of “self” pollutes the beholder and allows the courts to again revert to the practices of guilt until proved innocent. In the hands of mankind, too often our verdict is guilt for the innocent as this story shows while the guilty run free.

Allah is the invention of mankind, in the image of mankind, for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. It is the complete opposite of what we perceive as the Nature of G_d, who in our learning is the G_d of the down-trodden, the G_d of the least. One of our problems, I think, is that we have learned what is good and what is evil, we have just not learned to tell them apart. This fact will corrupt everything we attempt to do without at least acknowledging the possibility that a higher power is at work in the world. By doing that we admit our own imperfection and can then at the least strive for perfection.

Oct 13, 2009 - 6:38 am 15. MiamaMan:

14. Lynn:

Dear Lynn, may the Mother always give you quiet in the mind, purity, calm, and peace.

The tendency towards globalization is irreversible in the Spirit. Circumlocutions will be many. The US is just a speck, however very important, in this drive.

Is there a way to, finally, bring the Kingdom of Heaven here to us? Or shall we always aspire to a beyond to provide for happiness, justice, knowledge?

The Earth is gestating. The shower of gods is slowing down.

The Prince of Peace, Jesus, was one among a few, but a Son of God as anyone else is. Nor salvation is only through him, this is a fallacy.

Not a fallacy that Jesus stated that organized religion, as the Pharisees of that time, verily prevents the understanding of God, the entering into the Kingdom.

Spirituality is not equal to religion, alas, they may be antithesis.

And allow me to close by quoting the greatest American Psychologist, William James, “Varieties of Religious Experiences”:

“Our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the flimsiest of screens, there lie a potential form of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but aptly the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are there in all their completeness….
No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite disregarded. How to regard them is the question…At any rate, they forbid our premature closing of accounts with reality.”

Oct 13, 2009 - 7:47 am 16. David W. Lincoln:

Miami Man, given what transpired in the Garden of Eden, according to the Judeo-Christian tradition, curbs needed to be introduced so that too much power didn’t wind up in too few hands. If you are interested, check with the Roman Catholics as to what subsidiarity is.

Given what I have pointed to by including part of Atticus Finch’s final speech to the jury in the trial of Tom Robinson, certain variables have to be in place, and they have to be made strong.

So, how does the scion and the pauper receive the same protection under the law? It is
a lot easier to point to one creator, which when it permeates through all areas of life
allows at this desirable conclusion.

Plus, given that each person has free will, it is preferable to gauge acts by the same
standard which applies to everyone.

Now, Miami Man, if you choose not to follow this up, you will continue to live in a profoundly different paradigm than what I am in. So, I have examined your words, and to pull a quote from the prophecy of Daniel, “They are found wanting”.

Therefore, which standard is to be used? Is it the second person of the Holy Trinity as the Apostle John begins the evangel according to him? Is it the Torah, which according to the Jews is eternal? Is it the philosophy of the logos, which philosophers who lived in Hellas before Socrates referred to? Is it the Tao, which is one thing that the far East can be thankful for? Is it the Rta, which was found in early Hinduism? Is it the Ma’at, which was found in Ancient Egypt? Plus this, don’t the Torah, the philosophy of the logos, the Tao, the Rta and the Ma’at point towards Yeshua ha meshiach.

Oct 13, 2009 - 9:22 am 17. David W. Lincoln:

I reiterate, Miami Man, given the occurrences of man’s inhumanity to man, what is in place so that scion and pauper can be protected from such occurrences, or receive redress, other than by one standard which comes from one creator?

As long as a Muslim receives more protection than a Christian, or adherent of another faith
tradition, from a Muslim, any claim that Muslims can make to being monotheist is just propaganda.

For the Muslims have 3 strategies to deal with
the Dar al Harb. One is conversion. Another
is dhimmmitude, and the third is execution.
Hardly a case for all receiving the same protections via government.

Oct 13, 2009 - 1:14 pm 18. MiamaMan:

16. David W. Lincoln:

Atticus Finch or Gregory Peck?

Nick Adams or Hemingway?

I am confused.

Thanks for the diatribe.

The Tao, as the Tao Te Ching, opens, cannot be named, so that people like you can define it.

Rta, I think you are referring to Rita Hayworth, aren’t you?

Early Hinduism? Hummm, compared to what? Harappan, Rg Veda?

Yes, I notice your erudition, touché! Ha, ha, no problemo, the age of Wikipedia.

Socrates was an as.ho.e. He should have been kicked out of Athens long before the event. Read revelations in “The Trial of Socrates” by Stone.

Whatever strategies, you haven’t answer the question. Go ahead, get another one.

Oct 13, 2009 - 1:47 pm 19. David W. Lincoln:

Given that man’s inhumanity to man has been dished out by government. For examples: The Gulag Archipelago, the death camps and concentration camps under the Swastika, the killing fields of Pol Pot, plus all that the Beijing Politburo and North Korea have dished out, all these are wrong because the property rights of the victims were not respected. So, by what standard, Miami Man, are these actions deemed to be wrong? Namely the one standard, that Muslims pay lip service to, but in fact deny because the property rights of the dar al Islam are protected and then respected far more often, than they are for the dar al Harb.

I am saddened that I had to spell it out for you, because I thought you would have had the intellectual honesty to arrive at it on your own, not to mention the intellectual horsepower not to rely on the work of others, Miami Man.

Oct 13, 2009 - 6:45 pm 20. David W. Lincoln:

Put another way, property rights are guaranteed
by the one standard which comes from the one source, regardless of any distinction that can be applied to the human race, Miami Man. Frankly your not willing to look outside your
box, and me calling you out on it, gets your goat. So, there it is.

Therefore, whenever property rights are not respected, for there are decisions made which affect the lives of people, but have a secondary influence, at most, on government, as long as government seeks to go beyond its realm (which is the act of it rejected subsidiarity), it sows its eventual destruction.

Oct 13, 2009 - 6:50 pm 21. David W. Lincoln:

In defense of Socrates, Miami man, those who wrote the history have a way of defending themselves. He called out Athens on its short comings.

However, the philosophy of the logos, was discussed by philosophers who lived in Athens, but before Socrates.

So, let’s see you come up with a way to accord the same protections to the pauper as to the well to do, or aristocracy, to prevent man’s inhumanity to man, or to receive redress
after the victim has been on the receiving end
of man’s inhumanity to man. I say it comes from one source, and this source ensures there
are limits to areas of life from inflicting man’s inhumanity to man, as long as the parameters are respected. The far east knew these parameters as the mandate of heaven, Aristotle referred to the golden mean.

The neat thing about these protections are, they are eternal. So, when they are not respected, as even handed history records, the
wrong doer is one of the victims, and not just
those who cross the path of that malicious sequence of cause and effect.

Oct 13, 2009 - 6:57 pm 22. David W. Lincoln:

As for the Tao being unknowable, there is this to say that it points to the second member of the Holy Trinity: I’ve organized a petition through World Net Daily for the release of Maryam and Marzieh from Iranian prison. We’ve discussed their situation here several times. You can sign the petition by going here. I would like everyone who visits this blog to forward this petition to everyone you know. I genuinely believe that this is something that we can all rally around. This petition could have as easily run on the Huffington Post as World Net Daily. And of course, beyond just signing the petition, please pray!

A new petition to the U.S. Senate seeks help to free Maryam Rustampoor and Marzieh Amirizadeh, two Iranian women who have been jailed for being Christian.

The petition cites the “clear violation of globally recognized principles of freedom of religion and conscience” and argues Iranian leaders have made “numerous public claims … that they represent a just government.”

It states:

We, the undersigned, whether conservative or liberal, right-wing or left-wing, Christian or Muslim, American, Iranian and righteous people from all across the world, all who agree that human rights, women’s rights, freedom of religion, conscience and a value for all human life are universal principles demand of the Iranian government to release Maryam Rustampoor and Marzieh Amirizadeh immediately without charges.
WND reported earlier when the women, in a display of raw courage, told an Iranian government prosecutor they not only are Christian, but it is up to God to whom He talks.

Rustampoor, 27, and Amirizadeh, 30, have been held in Iran’s prison system since March 5, when they were taken into custody because of their faith.

According to a report from the Christian ministry Elam, during a hearing, the women dramatically refused to deny their Christian faith.

(Story continues below)

They explained that God had convicted them through the Holy Spirit.

Sign the petition now.

“It is impossible for God to speak with humans,” a prosecutor, identified only by the single name of Haddad, stated.

“Are you questioning whether God is almighty?” Amirizadeh asked him.

To which Haddad then replied. “You are not worthy for God to speak to you.”

“It is God, and not you, who determines if I am worthy,” she said.

Eventually Haddad instructed the women to go back to their prison cells and think about their options, and to return to court when they were ready to comply.

“We have already done our thinking,” the woman said, according to Elam, a ministry founded in 1988 by senior Iranian church leaders with a vision to serve the growing Iranian Christian community.

The ministry later reported that the women’s lawyer confirmed his clients “are not prepared to lie about their faith under any condition.”

The women, who have been increasingly ill in prison because they lack proper medical care, have been told by prosecutors they will be executed as “apostates,” solely because of their Christian faith, the petition states.

Author and petition organizer Joel Richardson, whose “The Islamic Antichrist” exposes Western Christians to Muslim traditions and beliefs, told WND he is supporting the petition to bring attention to the women’s plight.

“I just want to bring this to the forefront of everyone’s attention,” he said. “I’m hoping we can get people from across the political spectrum involved. If not, it only reveals their hypocrisy about a fundamental human rights issue.”

According to an Elam ministry statement on the special Free Them website set up to publicize the case, testimony of the two “continues to spread across the world.

“Their unwavering faith has challenged countless believers. Because of Maryam and Marzieh’s example, many Iranian Christians have become even more courageous as they follow Jesus in a hostile environment,” the ministry said.

“Maryam and Marzieh are aware that Christians all over the world are praying for them. They are encouraged to realize they have not been forgotten, and they have a message for you:

“Thank you for praying for us. We are humbled and strengthened by your prayers and we are determined to remain faithful to Jesus even unto death.”
Richardson told WND he is happy to help in any way he can.

“I’m entirely open to travel Tehran to talk to somebody about this,” he said.

Richardson’s book makes the case that the biblical Antichrist is one and the same as the Quran’s Muslim Mahdi, an expected one in that religion.

Richardson is the co-author with Walid Shoebat of “God’s War on Terror: Islam, Prophecy and the Bible” and co-editor of “Why We Left Islam: Former Muslims Speak Out.” “The Islamic Antichrist” is published by WND Books and is available autographed in the WND Superstore.

On a blog for the Voice of the Martyrs, there was a suggestion for prayer for the two.

Under Islamic law, the penalty for apostasy is death. According to reports about the punishment system within Iran, for women the execution often is preceded by rape.

Reports say both women have been subjected to solitary confinement as well as extended interrogations already, with health problems resulting.

Oct 13, 2009 - 7:17 pm 23. logos1j1:

MiamaMan, 15

Now we must diverge:

There is no “Mother.” God the Father is the ONLY God.

The earth is a ball of dirt. (One that I’m very fond of and that we should all take care of, but a ball of dirt, nonetheless.)

Demons, and their master, are being bound by the angels of Light and the spreading of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus Christ is indeed THE Son of God (not A son of God) and the only BEGOTTEN of God; He is not like any of us; He is uncreated; He is God Himself. (John 1:1-18). More to the point He said that He was. (Luke 22:70-71, John 5:16-18, 8:58). He also said, “No one comes to the Father but through Me.” (John 14:6). So it is inconsistent to say He is “The Prince of Peace” and then to say that these things are not true, for this would make Him a liar, and peace never comes about through lies; indeed it cannot. Either Christ was telling the Truth and He is the only Way to the Father, or else He is a liar and is no prince of peace, no good teacher at all, or else He is a lunatic (believing Himself to be God when He is not) with the same result as the former. You must take Christ at His word and thus worship Him as Savior and King, or else utterly dismiss Him as a liar (i.e. the Devil himself or a servant of the Devil (John 8:44), or a lunatic. This business of His merely being a good teacher or one guru or god among many is bosh. (I believe (with near certitude) that C.S. Lewis first framed this argument in this way in (with slightly less confidence) Mere Christianity, but I did not want to delay the writing of this note until I could verify it. (Much to my dismay many of my books are packed in boxes and may as well be on the moon.))

Spirituality is simply one aspect of our (individual) being (if indeed it is at all correct and useful to so divide ourselves up into parts) as is our sexuality, psychology, mental cognition, etc. In this sense it cannot rightly be compared to religion which is a set of ritualized social interactions by which we express our spirituality with each other. True religion does indeed bring us closer to God, which is its purpose. False religion has us worshiping demons, or perhaps if we’re lucky, nothing at all. So the issue is not “organized religion” but True Religion.

Christ did not condemn organized religion, then, but rather the manipulators of the perfect religion of the Torah, in this specific case the lawyers, not the Pharisees (Luke 11:46, ff.). Having fulfilled the Covenant of Sinai He established a New Covenant and the perfect religion of the New Testament (its practitioners, including yours truly, not being perfect, however). This is the Kingdom of Heaven of which you spoke, and we both benefit from its sanctifying power and wait for its perfection at the end of the age. This is too complicated to deal with here.

William James was an idiot: he spoke of things he clearly did not understand. “Psychology” is a pseudo-science, bad philosophy and useless in changing the human condition. All of the statistics prove this. And being based on Naturalism it is dying its natural death and devolving into mere psychiatry – i.e. drugging the mind, thus killing the soul in the vain hope of gaining some cessation of angst and evil.

That Socrates was a jerk I will not argue. But you cannot mean that based solely on this he deserved exile or death! His trial was clearly corrupt. More voted for his death sentence than for the original conviction! Is it true that we should allow no one ever to disagree with the status quo?! I have never heard of the book you cite, but I’ve read Plato (in Greek no less). You cannot be serious. You are reacting emotionally. Your writings thusfar indicate that you are better than this.

Oct 13, 2009 - 7:19 pm 24. MiamaMan:

OK, don’t get mad…

The examples you mentioned…what have they to do with monotheism? I thought that was the disagreement at first.

[I am saddened that I had to spell it out for you, because I thought you would have had the intellectual honesty to arrive at it on your own, not to mention the intellectual horsepower not to rely on the work of others, Miami Man.]

Don’t be saddened, my dear.

Property rights…bla, bla, bla, OK.

Socrates, no, he did not call Athens for its shortcoming, but was arrogant and antidemocratic, wanted to bring back a king and destroy democracy in Athens, looked down on the plebe, thought common men could not govern themselves, but had to be governed by the likes of him that were superior, the Athenians were right in not putting up with him. Stop Wikipediaing yourself.

Oct 13, 2009 - 7:25 pm 25. MiamaMan:

23. logos1j1:

We can diverge, no problem, I like that, I respect your opinions and ideas.

1) [There is no “Mother.” God the Father is the ONLY God.]

Of course there is only one God. But he is both Father and Mother, as we mortal creatures have a mother, this creation also has a Mother. The Mother is the creative principle of God, that’s it. That’s is what we Hindus believe, as I am a follower of Sanatana Dharma. The Upanishad proclaims it clearly, in Sanskrit: Brahma Ekam Eva Advitiyam, meaning, God is One without a second, if this is not absolute monism, what is?

2) [The earth is a ball of dirt. (One that I’m very fond of and that we should all take care of, but a ball of dirt, nonetheless.)]

No, this is the wrong believe of the Abrahamic religions, including Islam, with their punishing philosophy, eternal damnation, and all that nonsense. The earth is Ananda, joy, and nothing but God himself, actually there is nothing that is not-God. The spiritual evolution here is toward the manifestation of the Almighty Father on earth, as Sri Aurobindo and the Mother proclaimed. Not some heaven somewhere, but here.

3) [Jesus Christ is indeed THE Son of God (not A son of God) and the only BEGOTTEN of God]

I respect your opinion, but it is erroneous, everyone is a son of God, aren’t me made in his image? I respect Jesus as an Avatar, there are very few, but I am not a Christian, and actually find Christianity wanting, dogmatic, and childish, and I also hope you respect my beliefs.

As soon as religion becomes “organized” it loses itself.

4) [William James was an idiot: he spoke of things he clearly did not understand. “Psychology” is a pseudo-science, bad philosophy and useless in changing the human condition. All of the statistics prove this.]

William James was brilliant, he understood more than you think. However, on your assessment of psychology, I somehow agree. It can hardly be called a science, and it has tons to learn from the ancient psychology of the Hindus. The subconscious that Freud “discovered” has been known, influenced, used for cures, in Yoga for thousands of years.

5)[That Socrates was a jerk I will not argue. But you cannot mean that based solely on this he deserved exile or death! His trial was clearly corrupt]

You are correct, the trial was corrupt and manipulated, and he should not have been given the poison, but hardheaded as he was, he had many chances to leave, but chose “eternal life” in the history books. However, he should have been exiled from Athens long before, for sedition and trouble-making.

Oct 13, 2009 - 8:27 pm 26. logos1j1:

MiamaMan, 25

Bless my soul! Is my face red! I completely conflated William James and James Joyce! In my youth we called this a brain cramp. I don’t much like James’ philosophy, and the system of modern psychology which he was instrumental in launching is indeed failing as I pointed out – and on which we agree. But he was no idiot. I had intended to insult an entirely different person: the complete nut job and idiot James Joyce. I just about fell out of my chair when I read your entry and realized my mistake! Perhaps you will disagree with me here, too (though I hope not!) but I’ll stand by this insult: I’m quite clear-headed now.

As an aside, psychology would have fared better if Jung had been followed rather than Freud. But it still would have failed. Its assumptions are wrong.

On Socrates, he and Plato have, at least to a degree, been overrated. Certainly if Plato had ever gotten his ideal Polis it would have been an oppressive nightmare. The Athenians were right to reject this. But I still am not following you. How is what Socrates did sedition? Unless any disagreement with the status quo is sedition. And if he were guilty of sedition he would then have deserved death. No. The Athenians should have gone on doing what they had been doing for years: let him run around prattling on, not working, being a poor husband and father (as he himself admitted) and generally making a fool of himself. And yet even through all of this he did give something valuable to the world, for there is some wisdom in what he said and he exposed many errors and false assumptions.

Oct 13, 2009 - 10:13 pm 27. Gaffe Prices:

#24 Miamiman: If this reinforces your point that…

Socrates, no, he did not call Athens for its shortcoming, but was arrogant and antidemocratic, wanted to bring back a king and destroy democracy in Athens, looked down on the plebe, thought common men could not govern themselves, but had to be governed by the likes of him that were superior, the Athenians were right in not putting up with him. Stop Wikipediaing yourself.

find it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

Oct 14, 2009 - 12:53 am 28. MiamaMan:

26. logos1j1:

Thanks for the answer.

1) On Socrates, I went overboard on the charge of sedition, you are right, trouble-making is more accurate. Also, it is true he wanted attention, and should have been left babbling. He served Athens in the military with distinction in his youth, though. The You Tube video recommended above by (27. Gaffe Price) is enlightening.

2) On Jung, correct. Of the followers of Guru Freud, he was the most brilliant, and the one closer to the Spirit. However, I believe credit should be given to Freud for many of his initial discoveries. For those interested in the ideas of Jung in relation to evil, allow me to quote from a letter he sent to Bill W, co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, just a few months shy of his death at the age of 85:

“I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in the world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. An ordinary man, not protected by an action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible.”

3) I don’t know much about Joyce, and have not read his Ulysses or other works, however it occurs to me that he should be given some credit for not toying with the Communist idea and the Lenin/Stalin rabble as many of his intellectual contemporaries, such as Reed, Gide, did between the 2 world wars.

Oct 14, 2009 - 5:02 am 29. David W. Lincoln:

One more time, this time with clarity, I hope. The government which respects the property rights of all, that is the aristocracy and the paupers, occupies its rightful place. But, when government oversteps its boundaries and does not respect the property rights of all, the property rights are the witness that government is out of bounds. Put another way, it is no longer in the golden mean communicated by Aristotle, or the mandate of heaven
communicated by the far east.

So, given that respecting property rights is an aspect of what is done right, and that these property rights are eternal, it is more rational to conclude that there is one source of property rights, than there is of more than one source.

After all, everyone has property rights, and when those property rights are not respected, one standard applies. Instead of one standard for the well to do, and a different one for the paupers.

For that is the crux of the matter, which Muslims deny because they have one standard for the dar al Islam and a different one for the dar al Harb.

Oct 14, 2009 - 12:55 pm 30. More Honor Killing — Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami:

[...] the “Muslim community” will get so fired up that they will back off, as usual…PajamasmediaPhyllis Chesler When girls or women suddenly disappear, we tend to assume that they’ve been [...]

Oct 15, 2009 - 3:07 am 31. Gaffe Prices: