118 Comments

1. Pajamas Media » Open Season on Jews: Two Men Shot at L.A. Synagogue:

[...] Read the entire story here. [...]

Oct 29, 2009 - 12:07 pm 2. David C.:

The unrelenting antisemitism that has forever plagued the Jewish people simply boggles the mind.

One cannot understand, no matter how much careful consideration of what motivates humans to take certain actions, the reason for this.

I am not a expert, but this must certainly approach the level of psychosis or psychological disorder. What commonly observed human mental weakness could be responsible for what seems to be an almost universal hatred of an entire race of people?

Is this the result of the tribalism, class and ethnic identity political atmosphere so common to marxist socialist political systems?

I believe myself to be a reasonably intelligent person, yet I fail to understand the reason behind all this hate.

Oct 29, 2009 - 12:30 pm 3. Naftali:

So, being Jewish, we have to wait for the data to come in before making conclusions. And, most unfortunately, the secret here isn’t a secret. You can think what you want to about the Torah, but that unrelenting antisemitism is spelled out in the most stark terms as a condition of our covenant. You don’t have to believe this, but it certainly hit the nail on the head for nearly 4000 years. It’s the best explanation floating around in the world of hypotheses.

Oh wait, I forgot about “poverty and desparation”. Heh.

Oct 29, 2009 - 12:53 pm 4. Dave K.:

The only reason Republicans are so in love with the Jews is because they want the Christian Fundamentalist/Evangelist vote.

The Christian fundies have this weird idea that once all Jews are in Israel, the End Times will be upon us and the Messiah will return.

That doesn’t mean that Fundamentalist Christian Republicans like Jews, it only means that they are a tool to be used in their fulfillment of the prophesy.

As far as hating “New York Values” Jews, Southern Christians are just as bad.

Oct 29, 2009 - 12:56 pm 5. Blackwater:

I’ll be honest when saying that non-arab muslims have always irked me. Don’t they know about the horrid history of how their ancestors were forced to convert to islam? And the phenomenon of blacks converting to islam is especially nauseating. Often times they leave Christianity because they’ve been told that it’s the religion of their “slave masters”. Which is somewhat valid I suppose. But then going and converting to islam is totally irrational and ignorant. Arab muslims owned far more black slaves and for much longer. They were also treated far worse. And muslims have invaded and occupied black lands continuously for hundreds of years up until the modern day. They’re still trying to takeover several African countries by force and commit all kinds of atrocities to blacks while doing so. Including slavery. Blacks are still being enslaved by muslims at this very moment.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:05 pm 6. david foster:

The idea that Evangelicals are pro-Israel for theological reasons is only partly true. Other factors are at least as important, to wit:

The left-wing belief systems known as “progressivism” is very tightly coupled to anti-Israel attitudes…and, in the U.S., “progressivism” emanates largely from the universities. Evangelicals are typically members of social groups which are largely outside to force field centered on the university and hence are less influences by their attitudes. Hence, there is little to interfere with their natural American sympathy with a beleaguered democracy.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:09 pm 7. A.W.:

there is no question that anti-semitism is real and virulent and it is equally obvious that liberals are too quick to dismiss that part of the motivation for terrorism or any particular criminal act.

But that being said, not every killing or wounding of a jew is a hate crime. Just because we don’t yet know their motivation doesn’t mean there is no other motivation. Of course the police need to look into everything and even if we heard of an official motive, you will have to wonder what really motivated it. but its too soon to declare that it is or even likely is motivated by anti-semitism.

Otherwise we risk being guilty of the exact same thing the liberals did in the duke rape case. This article bears a creepy resemblance to all of the op eds that heard echoes of plantation life, etc. in the rape of that stripper. except the rape didn’t happen and thus those echoes were figments of their imagination.

Tomorrow we might wake up to find out that the attacker thought in fact the two men were aliens in disguise. In other words his lack of apparent motive only masks something completely random and completely nuts so that our attempt to find a greater social meaning in this crime ends up looking silly. Or we might find out that these men are also figure skaters and someone had pulled the ultimate “Kerrigan” on them. Let’s just hope that whoever it is is caught and soon.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:17 pm 8. A.W.:

Dave K.

no, the reason why republicans support isreal, for instance, is because we actually believe in justice. Here’s a hint: isreal is one of the good guys in the war on terror. and their opponents? terrorists, terrorist supporters, and terrorist sympathizers.

I know of no christian who is actively trying to bring about the end times. But you know who is? the president of iran. and you liberals think we should trust him with a nuke.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:20 pm 9. George Jochnowitz:

In a world where prejudice is the rule and not the exception, anti-
Semitism nevertheless stands out as unique in its persistence and universality. Why should this be the case? Perhaps it’s simply lack of originality. Monkey sees, monkey does. Monkey buys a pair of gloves.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:25 pm 10. logos1j1:

David C.,
You are absolutely right: there is no possible explanation for the three (or four) thousand year long bloodbath that has been unleashed against the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews – outside of a proper understanding of Biblical theology and cosmology. This cannot be a merely human phenomenon, and it isn’t. The two keys needed to unlock the mystery are: Satan and Chosenness. Satan really exists. The Jews really are God’s Chosen People. The salvation of mankind came through the Jews (John 4:22). The Jewish people represent Satan’s ultimate defeat; the utter collapse of all his grand schemes. They are a constant reminder to him of this. Their very existence mocks him. Were it not for the Jews the whole of mankind would be entirely under his control. Because of this he is literally dancing with rage. We cannot imagine the rage this instills in him and his demons. Those who reject God fall under his power to the degree that they reject True Morality, which is written on all of our hearts (Romans 1:19-20). As many of these as he can he will teach the hatred of the Jews, even to the point of murder and mass murder, if possible. If he cannot do this, then he will settle for the kind of active dislike and subterfuge found (mostly) on the political left. Barring this he will use simple cowardice and greed: the coward and the conniver will always pile onto whomever is already being attacked. If someone has a psychotic break and wishes to kill, then Satan will seek to direct them toward a Jew, though perhaps they had not been a hater before: no matter, they are under his control and this is what he wants most of all: not just some guy, a Jew. No one is CONTROLLED by Satan. Everyone has free will. They must go along. But Satan is a powerful influence: he’s had plenty of practice. So he always finds a way to continue his unrelenting war against the Jews. They have survived because God is their champion and always comes to their aid: but even He plays by His own rules: He won’t force anyone to do good anymore than He would allow Satan to force someone to do evil. So we must all be determined to stand together in this fight. Understanding what is really going on is helpful. I think that outside of this explanation you will never find a satisfactory answer to the very insightful question you have raised.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:28 pm 11. Lawrence May:

I disagree that Jews are hated by right wingers. As the reporting on Pajamas Media has noted, the British National Party (BNP) base is primarily in disaffected Labor voters. It is a nationalist party of the left and Nazis, Neo-Nazis and Facists are Nationalist Socialist. Kudos to Jonah Goldberg for his book “Liberal Facism” for reinforcing this point with me.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:29 pm 12. Curtis M:

David C:

“The unrelenting antisemitism that has forever plagued the Jewish people simply boggles the mind.

One cannot understand, no matter how much careful consideration of what motivates humans to take certain actions, the reason for this.”

I’m with you. I’ve never understood this either. Perhaps David K. has an answer. At least he seems to have Republicans totally pegged for why they love Jews(?)…….although I’m not sure what relevance it has in relation to this article.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:30 pm 13. AM:

I condemn this act of violence. there is nothing that can justify this.

HOWEVER, its also interesting to see your examples of terrorism be of only Palestinians and/or Arabs. I guess you people haven’t read your NON-UNITED STATES history books. The mofos that actually initiated such terrorism, such bloodshed, were zionists (mainly from the UK and Russia) themselves. Go and read about the Stern Gang and Irgun; both terrorist groups that bombed bazaars and buses to scare Palestinians off of the Palestinian lands. In fact, and this is funny but also scary, Obama-shlobama’s chief of staff, Rahm Israel Emanue, is the son of an Irgun member … son of a terrorist. It does run in the blood as Rahm Israel Emanuel has been pro-iraq war, pro-attack on Iran, pro settlements in israel, pro building that wall and much more.

Just thought you people might as well be aware of some facts. As you know, some things can never be forgotten.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:30 pm 14. Edgar:

“Even when the Jews may themselves be Arabs of many skin-colors.”

Jews can’t be Arabs. You are either Jewish or Arab.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:31 pm 15. HEPT:

Eyes downcast the Jewish man helps his elderly father shop for groceries, It took me stepping close and speaking up to say hello to make him look up and see me eye to eye.
I gave him a thumbs up and a friendly grin and the look on his face was priceless and quite heart warming.
“Hate Corrodes the Vessel it is carried in.”
Alkal Goyal

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:36 pm 16. Dave K.:

Y’all do know that Israel was founded by left-wing European Jews, right?
Israel is a much more progressive nation than you think.

And the British National Party is a right-wing Nazi party.
Fascists and Nazis are right-wing and not socialist or left-wing.

The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is not Democratic and National Socialists are not socialist.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:47 pm 17. Rob Miller:

It’s sad that some of you have embraced the canard that Evangelicals only support Israel because of some ‘end times ‘ scenario. You need only look in Isaiah,the common source of Christianity and Judaism’s messianic roots to find out where that support really comes from, as well as their own theology in the New Testament.

Also, seeing what’s going on in the world today, they’re smart enough to recognize the common threat of jihad.

As an observant Jew I’d much rather have someone like Pastor Hagee or Gary Bauer as an ally than the Leftard Jews who compose J Street.

This shooter will likely turn out to be a lone wolf jihadi who was converted and radicalized by his imam, perhaps in prison. This will by no means be the last time this happens, until we decide to stop it.

Regards,
Rob Miller

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:48 pm 18. Proud_Kafir7908:

Blacks converting to mahoundianism should be made aware that the 7th-Century inbred bedouin savage cult is the only “religion” on the planet whose tenets place blacks in a position of inferiority. As an example of that, Ayaan Hirsi Ali describes in her autobiography, Infidel, how she was treated by A-rab mahoundians in Saudi Arabia because of the color of her skin:

All the girls at madrassah were white; I thought of them as white, and myself, for the first time, as black. They called Haweya (her sister) and I Abid, which meant slaves. Being called a slave – the racial prejudice this term conveyed – was a big part of what I hated in Saudi Arabia.

Hugh Fitzgerald also has written an essay, Arab Racism and Black Muslims, where he discusses many reasons why blacks should not be fooled by any talk about how mahoundianism is to be viewed as something that might “liberate them” from “white oppression”, chiefly how Arabs used and abused blacks slaves for way much longer than any country in the West ever did (1400 years, compared to 350 in the West.)

In the light of all of this, black muslims can only call themselves muslims for two reasons: ignorance or self-hatred.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:51 pm 19. David W. Lincoln:

As long as the Sons of Allah continue to cover for those who do their dirty work, whether they
are Muslims or not, frankly more scrutiny is in order.

How would the Sons of Allah like it when one of their mosques went up in flames & smoke? For, that might catch their attention. After all, those not of the ummah do not tolerate second class status.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:54 pm 20. Dave K.:

A.W.@8:
“I know of no christian who is actively trying to bring about the end times. But you know who is? the president of iran. and you liberals think we should trust him with a nuke.”

Pat Robertson wrote a book called “The New World Order” where he was writing about the fulfillment of prophecies about the “end time” in the Bible.

And all the rapture media and literature are based on end times fantasies.

Oct 29, 2009 - 1:56 pm 21. Dave K.:

Curtis M@12:
“Perhaps David K. has an answer. At least he seems to have Republicans totally pegged for why they love Jews(?)…….although I’m not sure what relevance it has in relation to this article.”

Republicans don’t love Jews,
they love the Christian Evangelical/Fundamentalist vote.

Christian Evangelicals/Fundamentalists don’t love Jews,
they love their prophesy about the return of their Messiah.

Jews vote Democrat because they know of the real reason Republicans are “in love with” Jews.

Republicans love Jews so much, they want them to leave the US and move to Israel.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:03 pm 22. Dave K.:

Proud_Kafir7908@18:
“Blacks converting to mahoundianism should be made aware that the 7th-Century inbred bedouin savage cult is the only “religion” on the planet whose tenets place blacks in a position of inferiority.”

What about Mormons?

“And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.” 2 Nephi 5:21-25

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:12 pm 23. Mike2:

4. Dave K.:

Isn’t it amazing how you know what all Christian Republicans are thinking. You should take that wonderful mind reading ability and go out and make millions of dollars. Then you can pay lots of taxes and help pay for Obama’s health care plan. As was remarked above, as far as I know Amadinajad is the only one running around trying to destroy the world to bring in his version of the messiah. Oh, but I forget, he is a Muslim so he is off limits. Gotta stick to those horrible Christians.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:15 pm 24. Evil Pundit:

I’ve sometimes speculated that the near-universal and irrational hatred of Jews constitutes evidence that their religion may be true.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:16 pm 25. Old Soldier:

Luckily we have the 2nd Amendment so they could defend themselves. Oh wait, it was in CA – nevermind.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:17 pm 26. Now and Then:

American Jews could care less about Israel.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:21 pm 27. Dave K.:

Mike2@23:

You poor X-tians.

http://breaktheterror.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/christian_oppression_pie1.png

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:28 pm 28. Judy, NYC:

you get a permit to carry. when someone looks like they intend to harm you, in a synagogue no less, shoot their face off and blow up their head. i am weary of talking about this antisemitism – and people are weeary of hearing it. we have to just kill those who would kill us. and make absolutely sure they are dead.
case closed.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:30 pm 29. DonP:

“Nearly thirty years later, one of the perpetrators was arrested in Canada: Hassan Diab, a Lebanese-born lecturer.”

Technically, it is inaccurate and unfair to describe Dr. Diab as a “perpetrator”, since he has not been found guilty of any crime as of this writing. Indeed, the case against him is shockingly weak, as anyone who is willing to do a little reading can easily see. Your readers would do well to learn some facts. Here are a couple of good places to start.

http://www.justiceforhassandiab.org/

http://www.friendsofhassandiab.blogspot.com/

The case is being brought against Dr. Diab by the French counter-terrorism judiciary, which while intriguingly effective from the narrow Cheney-esque perspective, has a less than stellar track record in terms of respecting suspects’ due process rights and in shielding the judiciary from the potentially corrosive effects of secret intelligence. Luminaries in the Intel field, including Professor Wesley Wark have gone on record about this specifically in Dr. Diab’s case.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:33 pm 30. Curtis M:

David K -

“Y’all do know that Israel was founded by left-wing European Jews, right?
Israel is a much more progressive nation than you think.”

And your point is…….what?

The article is discussing violence against Jews. Are ‘we all’ suppose to suddenly EMBRACE violence against Jews because Israel is ‘much more progressive’ than we think? I’m not quite following your train of thought here David K….just what ARE you suggesting? Because your insinuation that our sympathies and/or concerns might be affected based on whether or not we “know” that Israel was formed by progressives is….repugnant.

“Fascists and Nazis are right-wing and not socialist or left-wing.”

Either you truly don’t understand what a Fascist is – or you don’t understand what a conservative is.

“The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea is not Democratic and National Socialists are not socialist.”

Ok. Has it occurred to you that a North Korean (from the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea) might have a different opinion of what is “democratic”?

Although, looking a youtube videos of children signing songs of praise to their Dear Leader (in both N. Korea AND here in the U.S.), it’s hard to see a real difference in what defines ‘Democrat’…..

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:47 pm 31. westerncanadian:

#16 Dave K.”And the British National Party is a right-wing Nazi party.”

The BNP finds its support in disenfranchised white working class Brits at the bottom of the social layer cake. This segment of Britain has for several generations voted for the Labour Party and belonged to trade unions. Those people are not right wing and most would not admire Hitler. It is a fact that the BNP leadership is racist, nasty and almost certainly admires dangerous but dead Germans. I don’t think the BNP leadership is right wing in the “small government, individual liberty, freedom of speech, property rights, free markets” sense that we use in N. America.

The BNP correctly sees an opportunity in cultivating a disenfranchised part of the British working class by being the only party to acknowledge and articulate their anger and dispair.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:49 pm 32. Curtis M:

Now and Then:

“American Jews could care less about Israel.”

I’ve been wondering why Jewish-Americans consistently vote Democrat….thanks for clearing that up.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:52 pm 33. westerncanadian:

Spelling correction: not dis-pair nor dat-pair but DESPAIR.

Oct 29, 2009 - 2:56 pm 34. Marina:

And the libtard Jews do everything to burn the bridges between American Jews and Christian Conservatives. Bernhard, Silverman and Co. working night and day to p… off the Christians in the name of the Jewish community. Jews who don’t believe in anything but Marx and Mao try to prevent their sane brothers to vote Conservative. They try to MAKE CHRISTIANS HATE JEWS.

So, when a situation like this occurs, and a typical DEMOCRAT and OBAMA VOTER displays his “tolerance”, American Jews may start ask questions: “Are we on the right side? Why do we support the party of racial hatred and anti-Semitism? (And no, we haven’t forgotten Al Sharpton)”.

Here comes Larry David, pees on the painting of Jesus and says: “Too late! The other side knows you hate their Jesus! YOU HAVE NOWHERE TO GO! So shut up and STAY DEMOCRAT!”

The positive thing is that no matter how hard they try, the Christian Right in America seems to stay mostly uninfluenced by this tactic. They are offended (of course!) but they constantly REFUSE to transfer this feeling into anti-Semitism. Incredible. G-d bless them.

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:04 pm 35. Peter:

Dave K, please slither back into whatever sewer spawned you. Please.

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:19 pm 36. MiamaMan:

5. Blackwater:

[I’ll be honest when saying that non-arab muslims have always irked me. Don’t they know about the horrid history of how their ancestors were forced to convert to islam? And the phenomenon of blacks converting to islam is especially nauseating.]

Be careful here, the first victims of Mohamed and Islam were the so-called Arab pagans. They had a vibrant religion not dissimilar from the Zoroastrians and the ancient Hindus…where do you think Pradakshina or the circling of the rock comes from? Current Muslim Arabs are total negationists when it comes to their ancient forebears, for to know the destruction they wrecked upon them, like they did to others, would be to start waking up to the cruel nature of Islam since its beginnings.

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:22 pm 37. Now and Then:

32. Curtis M:

“I’ve been wondering why Jewish-Americans consistently vote Democrat….thanks for clearing that up.”

And the snare slams shut again! that quote wasn’t mine, it was blotto who said, “American Jews could care less about Israel.” Take it up with him. I believe he’s a conservative who votes Republican. You know, some animals actually chew through their leg to free themselves from a trap. Hope you’re hungry.

And I thank you.

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:27 pm 38. MiamaMan:

32. Curtis M:

[Now and Then:

“American Jews could care less about Israel.”

I’ve been wondering why Jewish-Americans consistently vote Democrat….thanks for clearing that up.]

I found the answer in the book by American Jew Eric Hoffer “The True Believer: Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements”, don’t miss it. The Gipper gave Hoffer the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 1983, a few months before his death.

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:39 pm 39. baal:

Dave K.:The anti american poisonous stew that bred your messiah has caused this.
-the Artist formerly known as billslayer

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:43 pm 40. Lilith:

From a Canadian Jew to all the American Jews who claim that Republicans only support us and Israel because of their belief in the “end of days”: where’s your empirical evidence, people? Cite me some stats, please; because right now, everything you say is conjecture based on prejudice.

I am sure that many Fundamentalist Christians do support us for that reason – but not all Republicans are Fundamentalist Christians – and not all Fundamentalist Christians are Republicans: or how do you account for that virulent anti-semitic Fundamentalist Christian, former Democratic president Jimmy Carter and all his Israel-hating followers?

And how could you turn a blind eye to your current president’s 20 year attendance at one of the most racist churches I have ever encountered? And his idolization of it’s foaming-at-the-mouth, hideously racist, anti-semitic former “pastor”?

Racism and prejudice, like compassion and humanitarianism know no political or religious boundaries – when an individual or a whole group supports my people and Israel I don’t question their motivation – I just assume that they have their heads screwed on properly.

What is it with American Jews when they can’t or won’t see the forest for the trees – why would you vote for a man who attended an anti-semitic church for 20 years and bows and scrapes to the king of the Jew-haters? If you don’t want to vote Republican – which is your choice in a democracy – then write in your own name – or your dog’s name. Take a stand – make a statement – but get your bloody heads out of your asses.

Oct 29, 2009 - 3:54 pm 41. Dave K.:

Peter@35:
“Dave K, please slither back into whatever sewer spawned you. Please.”

Such wit, such eloquence.

Oct 29, 2009 - 4:03 pm 42. Lilith:

…oh, and Dave K?…what can I say? Were you frightened by a Christian as a child? Because you’ve got quite the rabid prejudice there, Buddy.

Oct 29, 2009 - 4:14 pm 43. Old Soldier:

Judy, NYC – Try getting a carry permit in NYC – let us know long it takes – or how hard they laugh at you for asking. CA is the same. Only the criminals are armed.

Oct 29, 2009 - 4:14 pm 44. Laura:

“The positive thing is that no matter how hard they try, the Christian Right in America seems to stay mostly uninfluenced by this tactic. They are offended (of course!) but they constantly REFUSE to transfer this feeling into anti-Semitism. Incredible. G-d bless them”.
………………………………
I completely agree. Larry David is a disgrace. If he had done this to a symbol of islam his life would now be endangered. So leftists like him think its courageous to express contempt for Christianity in this manner, but it takes no courage at all since Christians aren’t about to riot in the streets and call for a fatwa against Larry David.

Oct 29, 2009 - 4:26 pm 45. Valerie:

David K at # 4

Southern fundamentalist Christians read the bible, and they know very well the St. Paul characterized the Good News of Salvation in this way: It means that Christians, like the Jews, are heirs to the Kingdom of Heaven.

I do not believe the way they do, but I’ve attended their services from time to time, and read the writings from their more-respected clergy. Would you kindly tell us all the source of your statements?

Oct 29, 2009 - 4:45 pm 46. tanstaafl:

Yesterday there was a shootout in Detroit at a mosque largely peopled by African-American converts to Islam and led by the former Black Panther H. Rap Brown, who converted to Islam in jail while serving a life sentence.

The spiritual head of the “Ummah”, the Dearborn MI crowd whose “imam” was killed in the raid (mission: taking over North America) is, indeed, the piece of steaming turd formerly known as H. Rap Brown.

Your suggestion of retribution re today’s incident in LA is perfectly in keeping with these slimemeisters.

John Mohammed, Black Muslim who cut his teeth shooting up a Jewish synagogue in Washington state and moved on, under the glorious inspiration of Louis Farrakhan, to shooting anyone and everyone with the younger guy firing out of the trunk of their car…is due to be put to death by lethal injection in early November.

Will his demise give the brain dead another excuse ?

Oct 29, 2009 - 4:56 pm 47. PAthena:

To # 13: “Go and read about the Stern Gang and Irgun; both terrorist groups that bombed bazaars and buses to scare Palestinians off of the Palestinian lands.”

The Stern gang and the Irgun were at war against the British. They did not try to scare “Palestinians” off “Palestinian lands, since the “Palestinians” were the Jews, not Arabs, who were called “Palestinians” ever since the Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Palestina” in 135 A.D., after having defeated the last Jewish rebellion under Bar Kochba. (He also outlawed Judaism – see the Yom Kippur service about the ten rabbis he had tortured and murdered.) “Palestine” then became a synonym for “land of the Jews” or the “Holy Land,” and “Palestinian” a synonym for “Jew.” That is why the Zionists wanted the “Palestine Mandate.”
Using “Palestinian” to mean “Arab” is a propaganda ploy of the Soviet Union and Gamal Abdel Nasser, who founded the “Palestine Liberation Organization” in Cairo in 1964.
Arabs (non-Jews) attacked Jews in the Palestine Mandate from 1921 on, led by Haj Amin Husseini, e.g. 1929 in Hebron where Jews had lived since the time of Abraham (around 4000 years) and in 1936. Haj Husseini was an ally of Adolf Hitler and spent World War II as Hitler’s guest in Berlin.
The land of Palestine was the land of the Jews. And how is it that Arabs came to live in the land of the Jews?

Oct 29, 2009 - 5:05 pm 48. PAthena:

What is a “hate” crime? Those who attack people, commit crimes against them, usually hate their victims. Those who shot the Jews in Los Angeles hate Jews, but others who shoot non-Jews also hate those they shoot. The concept of a “hate crime” is ridiculous.

Oct 29, 2009 - 5:08 pm 49. Phranc:

I use to look at Jews with disdain for how it treated the poor pallies until I worked in Israel in 2000. All the years of propaganda force fed by the liberals in my education and entertainment spheres quickly became clear as lies and propaganda. I came back to the states and witnessed 9-11 shortly after. Hate is taught, it is not natural. Only honesty can break the cycle of hate based on lies. But as most of us know being honest is hard but hate is easy.

Oct 29, 2009 - 5:12 pm 50. digitalis:

#4..David K… Really? You actually polled millions of Christians did you and they all gave you the same answer? The fact of the matter is that a good Christian is COMPELLED by the Bible to Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself. An Anti-semitic Christian is a contradiction. Since the Saviour was a Jew and the Old Testament informs the New and are inextricably bound to each other Christians everywhere who believe it in the Word of God recognize their Jewish brethern in the world of God. Your bigotry is inexcusable. If I were to replace the word Christian with the word Jewish with every assertion you have made, you no doubt would be the first to shout anti-Semite. You are so arrogant you cannot see your own hatred and bigotry when it’s staring you in the face. We all have much to fear if this country continues its detachment from all things Christian and the falling away from the religious teachings of Judaism. The imagery of the Yeats’s rough beast its hour come round at last who slouches towards Bethlehem waiting to be born comes to mind.

Oct 29, 2009 - 5:38 pm 51. Donna V.:

Some evangelicals may support Israel for theological reasons.

Some Muslims murder Jews and wish to destroy Israel – for theological reasons.

It’s the first group that Dave K. hates and fears.

Dave K. isn’t very bright. But then, we already knew that.

Oct 29, 2009 - 5:41 pm 52. tanstaafl:

The concept of a “hate crime” is ridiculous.

That is so and something that has sprung out of political correctness.

Just yesterday, the not so enlightened US Congress passed legislation expanding the meaning of hate crime to include…

Physical attacks on people based on their sexual orientation

“The measure is named for Matthew Shepard, the gay Wyoming college student murdered 11 years ago.”

Hell, at the time I thought simple vicious murder was enough of a charge to put Shepard’s brutalizers away for life.

The guy in NY state who flushed the Koran was charged under NY law with a “hate crime”.

Can you imagine the legal morass such legislation opens up ? Lawyers must be thrilled at all the new potential business.

Pretty soon, the finer and finer increments of offense taking will become so ludicrous, you’ll be convicted of something like yawning in someone else’s presence.

Oct 29, 2009 - 6:21 pm 53. Jack in Silver Spring:

David K – I am Jewish and I am a Republican and for the most part when I see antisemitism today, it emanates from the left, not the right (with some exceptions – e.g., Pat Buchanan). As for the BNP, it is most definitely NOT a right-wing party. Read more about it, and you will find out that it is much more like Labor except for its are xenophobia. The BNP is a classic reincarnation of the “Liberal Fascists” of the 1930s and earlier described by Jonah Goldberg in his excellent book, Liberal Fascism. (I suggest you read it; you might learn something.)

As for fundamentalist American Christians, whatever they’re theological motives might be, they stand firmly behind Israel in a time when the more mainline churches seem to bailing (but of course, the more mainline churches seem to have abandoned the Gospels of the New Testament for the Gospel of Liberalism, much like non-Orthodox Jews have abandoned the Torah of Moses for the Torah of Liberalism).

In short David K., I think you are fundamentally mistaken.

BTW – I would strongly suggest to those who can, do not depend on the kindness or vigilance of others: when you go to your synagogue or church, carry your firearms; you may never know when you’ll need them.

Oct 29, 2009 - 6:29 pm 54. David C.:

What disturbs most is that, knowing what we know from the thousands of years of unambiguous history of antisemitism, the West is naive enough to believe that establishing a Palestinian state will actually stop Arabs from killing Jews.

This insanity reminds me of my late father-in-laws insane tirades about the “international Jewish conspiracy.” Otherwise rational, reasonable, intelligent people are deluded into believing the impossible.

Why does it matter? Imagine what could/would/might happen if a mushroom cloud suddenly appeared over Tel Aviv, or over Tehran. It would be the ever popular “game changer.” What would be the Soviet response? How about our stalwart NATO allies? Or the surrender idiots at the United Nations? It could get ugly…

Oct 29, 2009 - 6:37 pm 55. MiamaMan:

50. digitalis:

[We all have much to fear if this country continues its detachment from all things Christian and the falling away from the religious teachings of Judaism.]

No, no, please, Islam is not the only alternative my friend. And it shouldn’t. And it won’t. Thousands of years before the Koran, and the Bible (including the Old Testament), the Rg Veda was in existence, and it is as current and relevant today as it was then. I can’t quote the Bible, OK, but can only attempt to explain this turmoil we are in from the Vedic point of view.

There won’t be peace on Earth until man becomes one with God.

Avidya (Ignorance of God) is the perception of the non-existent or the non-perception of the Existent.

Moreover, Avidya is the consciousness of multiplicity while Vidya (its opposite; The Knowledge) is the consciousness of Unity.

The limited ego identifies itself with the diversity and the limited action, falling into error and illusion. However, the ego created by Avidya is a necessary mechanism for affirming individuality. God embraces His manifestation in Vidya and Avidya, as both are necessary to its existence and accomplishment. Ignorance subsists supported by Knowledge; the latter depends on ignorance for the preparation and the advance of the soul towards the great Unity.

In the worst ignorance there is some part of the knowledge; the destiny of ignorance or evil is not to be dissolved out of existence, but to be enlightened, united, fulfilled, transmuted and transfigured.

The office of Vidya is not to utterly destroy Avidya, but to constantly draw it towards itself, helping it to deliver itself progressively from the character of ignorance.

How that sounds?

Oct 29, 2009 - 6:47 pm 56. baal:

I hate to be the grim frickin reaper here people but… within our lives, maybe sooner than we think, islamic terrorists will have a nuclear weapon. And they will use it.
It is doubtless that Iran will be ready to deploy their first warhead within two years. They will not conduct tests for it there in Iran-they’ll do it underground, in North Korea.
What we’ll see is a series of test done in North Korea, and then shortly afterwards, Iran will announce that they not only have the bomb, but they have a weaponized version already deployed.
And who do we have to defend us? Barry.

Oct 29, 2009 - 7:08 pm 57. Bob:

Hi Phyllis, I’m not Jewish but I realize you are doing an invaluable job in protecting all of us by reporting on these attacks on Israelis and American Jews. They’ll be coming for the rest of us if we don’t take a stand now. It seems to me that competition of ideas is the key to bringing real democracy to many of the Muslim lands and other nations where one party or a single ideology prevails. For this reason I am strongly opposed to the progressive argument that one party states are morally equivalent to states where multiple factions can compete safely under constitutional protection. But maybe we are witnessing a civil war in the Islamic world and elswhere as one party monopolys are endangered by nearly unstoppable hi-tech communications. Perhaps we can be most helpful by using our Cold War strategy of getting competing ideas into the one party states by various means. Keep up the good work! Bob

Oct 29, 2009 - 7:08 pm 58. tanstaafl:

…the West is naive enough to believe that establishing a Palestinian state will actually stop Arabs from killing Jews.

Really the bottom line, given that Israel’s relentless & perpetual enemies, Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran have reiterated over & over their determination not to establish a Palestinian state but to eradicate a Jewish state.

Hamas plays well off the naiveté, yea stupidity, of western élites, the people Phranc (#49) realized were completely full of crap.

Oct 29, 2009 - 7:08 pm 59. Larry G.:

37 – Now and Then: “You know, some animals actually chew through their leg to free themselves from a trap. Hope you’re hungry.

And I thank you.”

Every post by this troll is such a weak attempt at humor and wit – EVERY single one. You’d figure that for all the time he/she/it spends trolling here, these pathetic attempts would become less cringe-worthy.

Although there’s not a term in English that captures a reader’s reaction, there is a Portugeuse word for the feeling of embarrassment/pity an observer feels for another’s failure – “vergonha.”

Oct 29, 2009 - 7:14 pm 60. dymphna:

I’ve been researching this strange case of the shootings at the Orthodox Sephardic synagogue in LA. My immediate thought was that it might be related to the FBI shooting of the Ummah African American in Detroit.

On looking into it further, there doesn’t seem to be a connection. For one thing, they’d be bragging about it.

It was obviously not intended to kill the victims since both were shot once in each leg.

The shootings took place about 6:30 am. The shooter obviously lay in wait, but how did he know Ben-Nissan would be so late? He must have been there since about 5:00 am.

The first victim was Maor Ben-Nissan, 37 or 38. He owns a tile store and prays at the synagogue every morning. He was brought to the US from Israel when he was very small. He arrived for morning prayers about an hour late and was shot getting out of his car.

The other victim was Allen or Alan Lasry, age 53 and he happened to drive up at the same time. I can find no occupation and don’t know if he was a regular member of the congregation.

The second victim may have been shot in the same manner to intimidate him into silence.

I believe they were able to drag themselves to the shul from the garage as one witness spoke of the blood everywhere.

This may or may not be anti-semitic in nature, but it does appear to be planned and to have had Ben-Nissan as its intended target.

I believe both men are out of surgery now.

BTW, the ADL released figures the other day which show that anti-Semitism is at an all-time low. I don’t have the Jerusalem Post URL handy but iirc the number is between 10 and 12%. Hardly something to brag about, but I’ll bet the anti-black and anti-Mexican figures are higher.

May everyone remember Maor and Alan in their prayers. I know I will.

Oct 29, 2009 - 7:48 pm 61. Curtis M at home:

Now and Then:

“And the snare slams shut again! that quote wasn’t mine, it was blotto who said, “American Jews could care less about Israel.” Take it up with him. I believe he’s a conservative who votes Republican.”

I don’t think I have anything to take up with blotto. Given the way that Democrats treat Israel, and given the way Jewish Americans typically vote, I can understand the conclusion that was drawn. I’ve thought the same thing myself at times – I was somewhat surpised to see you make that statement so baldly.

I’ve had this conversation with Jewish friends of my age before. Despite the fact that they are as conservative as I am, they still tend to vote democratic. One (who was originally from Maryland) told me the reason was that her family had voted Democrat ever since JFK in 1962. Something to do with a Catholic attaining the Presidency through the Democratic party and that it made many Jewish Americans more receptive to the Dems.

I tried to explain that Kennedy’s Democratic party no longer really exists….in the same way that Reagan’s Republican party no longer exists.

I think the best thing I’ve learned out of this little exchange is that as soon as it appears as though you’ve may a lucid post….you are quoting someone else.

Oct 29, 2009 - 7:53 pm 62. Now and Then:

59 Larry G . . .
61 Curtis M . . .

Ambitious. Gymnastic. Defensive. Guilty.

I lured you into a knee-jerk ideological assertion/insult. It’s a conservative pathology. You got what you deserved. You weren’t the first. You won’t be the last.

Oct 29, 2009 - 8:19 pm 63. Bilgeman:

#55 MiamaMan:
“There won’t be peace on Earth until man becomes one with God.”

Pardon my cynicism, but THAT doesn’t sound very promising.

Especially since so very many folks here in the West seem intent on following Liberalism’s prescription of making god become one with Man.

Hope they catch the little bastard. Whatever his motives, (and stuff the “hate crime” nonsense), he needs to be off the streets and locked away for life.

Oct 29, 2009 - 8:32 pm 64. Curtis M at home:

Now and Then

“Ambitious. Gymnastic. Defensive. Guilty.”

Okay. Are you referring to me or yourself?

“I lured you into a knee-jerk ideological assertion/insult.”

I guess that’s one way we’re different. No one has to ‘lure’ you into making knee-jerk ideological assertions or insults.

Oct 29, 2009 - 9:05 pm 65. Blackwater:

@13

The arab muslims started it first. They would systematically kidnap Jews, rape them, then dismember them for example. As a result of such acts of barbarism the Zionist Jews created their own gangs to return the favor.

Oct 29, 2009 - 9:12 pm 66. Blackwater:

@16

Uh, no. Communism is clearly a left wing ideology which is why they had such an easy time gaining leftist spies, supporters, sympathizers and operatives (such as Obama’s best friend Bill Ayers – hardly a right winger) in America and Europe during the Cold War and even after. It’s also why they endorse American left wing politicians so often and why Western leftists also support socialist facists. Chavez and Castro endorsed Obama, not McCain. And Nazism has always been a hybrid of left wing and right wing ideology. Try again you ignorant, brainwashed, neo-communist, leftist retard.

Oct 29, 2009 - 9:19 pm 67. Gary Rosen:

Dave K,

Inventory this, pal:

http://tinyurl.com/ce9bf2

Yes, it’s true. Democrats are more antisemitic than Republicans. Put that in your crack pipe and smoke it. That’s only one reason why this Jew quit the Democrat party after 35 years and registered as a Republican.

Oct 29, 2009 - 10:07 pm 68. Jews Under Siege in America Again:

[...] [...]

Oct 29, 2009 - 10:30 pm 69. Ruvy:

Dymphna,

Thank you very much for researching this shooting. Apparently there my be much more to all this than meets the eye at first. It may well have been a hit of some kind, made to look like an attack on Jews. But we cannot know, and I, living 11,000 miles away as I do, cannot afford to speculate….

Blessings from Shomron,
Shabbat Shalom

Oct 30, 2009 - 12:00 am 70. ABeck:

Hm. Well. as nobody seems to know WHO did the shooting, I find it very offensive that you would speculate that it would be ANYONE BUT a Jew. You don’t know that and I don’t know that, so how can you speculate and how do you think it’s okay to use such derrogatory terms about someone (or some) you seem to know not one thing of?

If this piece is your best work, I would truly hate to see you worst. Is it simply a slow news day? If so, why not take a real gander into what’s REALLY happening, to this day, in Palestine? There is plenty availabe for you to whet your appetite for bombings and killings. Why not give open-minded viewing and real reporting a shot?

Oct 30, 2009 - 12:02 am 71. ABeck:

Oh, and to Laura (44); what if larry David were not a Jew and had urinated on a Torah? Do you think the Jews would have approved of that?
If not, why are you giving anyone such a hard time about christians and/or muslims? I don’t think his life would be any more or less endangered had he chosen a Koran or a Bible.., or, yet a Torah or Talmud. Can you really believe that your stance on this is impartial and fair?

Oct 30, 2009 - 12:10 am 72. IndoEuropean:

I think Jewish are persecuted because seen altogether as a RACE. How this? Because some of them claim any Jewish comes from one of the 12 Tribes of Israel (Jacob). Therefore they feel a blood-connection together. [Therefore so called Black-jewish, those clearly from deep Africa, aren't considered true/real Jewish by other more "Middle Eastern" ones]. I guess this has therefore to do with Isaac, son of Ibrahim and Sarah … and when it comes to Arabs or Isalmo-arabs, there is that “racial” hate against Jewish, since Arabs (and therefore Islamo-arabs) are supposed to be children of Ibrahim and his Egyptian slave (then rejected), Hagar (from the biblish point of view). Jewish are children of favourite son Isaac; Islamo-arabs are children of rejected son Ismail.

But, where is the problem? The problem is that Islamo-arabs (”thanks” to Muhammad) consider that not Isaac but Ismail was the favourite son of Ibrahim.

Why there is a “racial” struggle then? Because: 1) descendants of Ismail want to revenge their biblical unfavourite ancestor (Ismail) and their ancient bibilically rejected mother (Hagar); 2) descendants of Ismail want to prove that they are the favourite ones (according to Koran), and they konanically want to revenge their “name” or dinasty (showing to the World that they are superior and more favourite than Isaac’s descendants).

As simple as that (when it comes to “racial” based conflicts).

When it comes to ideological conflicts (where both Judaism and Islam are seen as “non-racial” entities, but seen as “holy” religions or way of life, which “everyone” can join, keeping in mind that joining Judaism isn’t so easy as joining Islam), then we need to have a look to VII century in Arabian Paeninsula, and see what happened to Jewish at Muhammad & companions’ hands.

Nowadays conflict could “simply” be a never-ending repetition of that VII century’s “situation”.

When it comes to Afro-americans converted to Islam in jail (I might imagine how they have been converted and through what kind of “sermons” and historical education have they been converted), I imagine it is a VII centuries’ alike conflict, more than a “racial” one …. Or maybe right the opposite?

(…)

[Note for Afro-americans: Obama isn't Afro, check better for his mother's race and father's one, and keep in your mind that Islam practiced and still practicing Slavery and abuses on Africans, right in Africa. If you are Afro, you should first reject Islam, from the deepest of your heart, because it has been - and still be - a major cause of abuses on you, your people]

Oct 30, 2009 - 3:29 am 73. Dave K.:

Laura@44:
“I completely agree. Larry David is a disgrace. If he had done this to a symbol of islam his life would now be endangered. So leftists like him think its courageous to express contempt for Christianity in this manner, but it takes no courage at all since Christians aren’t about to riot in the streets and call for a fatwa against Larry David.”

Larry David’s actually made fun of Islam, blacks, Jews, Christians, Jerry “Our Messiah” Seinfeld, Israel, the US, Christianity, men, women, children, gays, lesbians, Asians, fat people, skinny people, cats, dogs, dentists, Democrats, Republicans, liberals, progressives, conservatives, corpse-sniffing canines, pedophiles, adulterers, Italians, Germans, Wagner, cable guys, himself, bald people and Adolf Hitler.

And if you’d actually bothered to watch that particular episode, you’d know that he was making fun of idolatry and not of Christianity.

Remember this quote?

“You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;”

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:16 am 74. A.W.:

David K

> Pat Robertson wrote a book called “The New World Order” where he was writing about the fulfillment of prophecies about the “end time” in the Bible.

In which you miss the difference between predicting something and making it happen.

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:17 am 75. Dave K.:

tanstaafl@52:
“The concept of a “hate crime” is ridiculous.
That is so and something that has sprung out of political correctness.”

Please look up the term “intent” and let me know if that’s also something that has sprung out of political correctness.

In criminal law, for a given guilty act, intent is used to show the mental state of the criminal.

That’s also why being charged with manslaughter and being charged with murder are two different things.

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:34 am 76. Markus:

David C.: Have you tried to read any anti-Semitic writing? You would at least understand where they are coming from. With right-wing anti-Semitism, its hatred is based on envy of Jewish power, but also on the Jewish tendency to use that power to support liberalism, secularism, immigration, and credit-based economies. Billy Graham for gods sakes was anti-Semitic at least through the seventies. Regarding left-wing anti-Semitism, I think it is just a species of anti-white racism. They hate Jews because they can pass for white.

I’d recommend that you read Kevin MacDonald, the most eloquent anti-Jewish critic. And the best rebuttal to him, I think, is by Paul Gottfried, the Jewish paleoconservative intellectual.

http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/in_search_of_anti-semitism/

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:34 am 77. Dave K.:

A.W.@74:
“In which you miss the difference between predicting something and making it happen.”

So now Christians don’t want their Messiah to return?

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:35 am 78. Butterfly Mornings and Wildflower Afternoons:

I am a follower of the words of Jesus Christ, I will be voting Republican in most of the upcoming elections (independent), and I love Jewish people for different reason than many are saying (i.e.,Dave K.). I love them, because my Great Grandmother was German Jew when she married a Preacher. I love the Jewish people, because I have the belief that many we love come from Jews. I love the Jewish people, because I believe that most of the Disciples and all of the Twelve Apostles come from Jews. I love Judaism because I love Jesus of Nazareth.
I certainly believe in end time’s prophecies, but I certainly do not wish for the Jewish people to move to Israel, because it would be a sin to hope for end times. We are to live our lives and not worry, and I try to do it, though it is hard when we have so many scary murdering people in this world.

I cannot say I am a Republican, because I will be voting for the individual person and not a certain party from now on, simply because I do not trust many politicians.

I do not like to call myself a Christian, because of passages in the bible that call out people who claim to be Christians, so I call myself a follower of Jesus, because I am, and I read and believe his words. I think of him as my Rock Star, I know he is the greatest man to walk this earth, because I know his words.

I am Southern, I am a follower of Jesus and I do not hate, because to hate any people would be to hate myself. To hate the Jewish people would be to hate my people and myself.

I read Dr. Chesler, because I respect her words and I like her.

Dave K. you are wrong, because you are sounding racist against Southern Christian people, and you sound as if you hate me for living down South.

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:53 am 79. Judithe:

Yesterday someone wrote a racial slur on the dorm room doors of two black students at my college. No one is asking why. No one is blaming the victims. No one is suggesting that this was personal and could not possibly be a hate crime. The President of our college is already suggesting that faculty and staff need sensitivity training.
These two men were shot!!! In a synagogue parking lot! But it could not possibly be a hate crime. It must be the result of mental illness. It must be a business deal gone bad. What did the two men do to deserve this?
At my college the administration is blaming the victimizers (apparently every person on campus). In the case of the Jewish men the blame is laid squarely on the victims.

Oct 30, 2009 - 7:06 am 80. A.W.:

Dave K.

> So now Christians don’t want their Messiah to return?

How can you be this ignorant of Christians and then shoot your mouth off as if you know something?

No, let me lay it out to you.

First, not all Christians buy into revelations. I for one reject it. God said after the flood he would never destroy the earth again, and saying, “well, technically he said he wouldn’t flood it” is assigning God Clintonian deception. I ain’t buying it.

But among the Christians who believe in the revelations prophesy, well, you miss the difference between desiring something and causing it to happen. Indeed, the Christians I know who believe in revelations believe it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to make it happen. If God doesn’t will it to happen, it won’t happen; and if he does, it will. And really what we do and say isn’t going to have any influence on the subject. Indeed, they consider it a little insulting to God to suggest that his actions can be manipulated so easily.

So please, spare me your ignorant hatred.

And by the way, notice you never addressed my substantive point: isreal is the good guys in all of this. And that is why conservative Christians support them. Occam’s razor and all that. Unlike the liberals we don’t think that it is okay to randomly murder children for a good cause—and most of us are smart enough to figure out that the Palestinian cause isn’t even a good cause to begin with.

But I find it amazing that that the Palestinians are romanticized as they are. As though regularly committing war crimes is a sign of superior moral virtue.

And the reason why you duck this substantive point is that it undermines your thesis that Christians are irrational. But if the isrealis are good guys and the Christians line up with them, then you might realize that their faith seems to have led them to the most moral position and that might completely undermine your hatred.

Oct 30, 2009 - 7:12 am 81. A.W.:

Judithe

> These two men were shot!!! In a synagogue parking lot! But it could not possibly be a hate crime. It must be the result of mental illness. It must be a business deal gone bad. What did the two men do to deserve this?

> At my college the administration is blaming the victimizers (apparently every person on campus). In the case of the Jewish men the blame is laid squarely on the victims.

Well, of course we shouldn’t assume the victims are to blame or that anti-semitism is NOT behind this. But the fact is that the attacker’s motive is a giant unknown. By comparison when a racial slur is used, on its face it is evidence of bias.

My point is to reserve judgment. Maybe it is anti-semitism—it is real and frequently violent. I would go as far as to say it wouldn’t surprise me if it was anti-semitism. But we just don’t know enough to draw any conclusion about motive.

Oct 30, 2009 - 7:20 am 82. Dave K.:

Butterfly Mornings and Wildflower Afternoons@78:

“Dave K. you are wrong, because you are sounding racist against Southern Christian people, and you sound as if you hate me for living down South.”

Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race, so, no, I’m not racist against Southern Christian people.

I do find their ideology to be hateful, contradictory and against the actual teachings of Christ.

And I live down South myself.

Oct 30, 2009 - 7:31 am 83. Dave K.:

A.W.@80:
“First, not all Christians buy into revelations. I for one reject it. God said after the flood he would never destroy the earth again, and saying, “well, technically he said he wouldn’t flood it” is assigning God Clintonian deception. I ain’t buying it.

But among the Christians who believe in the revelations prophesy, well, you miss the difference between desiring something and causing it to happen. Indeed, the Christians I know who believe in revelations believe it is IMPOSSIBLE for man to make it happen. If God doesn’t will it to happen, it won’t happen; and if he does, it will. And really what we do and say isn’t going to have any influence on the subject. Indeed, they consider it a little insulting to God to suggest that his actions can be manipulated so easily.

So please, spare me your ignorant hatred.”

First of all, it’s never “Revelations” in plural.
It’s always “Revelation” as in “Book of Revelation”, but you’re the Christian expert and I’m just the ignorant one…

And most Christians do believe in the End of Times, so your beliefs aren’t really that important for this discussion.

“And by the way, notice you never addressed my substantive point: isreal is the good guys in all of this. And that is why conservative Christians support them. Occam’s razor and all that. Unlike the liberals we don’t think that it is okay to randomly murder children for a good cause—and most of us are smart enough to figure out that the Palestinian cause isn’t even a good cause to begin with.

But I find it amazing that that the Palestinians are romanticized as they are. As though regularly committing war crimes is a sign of superior moral virtue.

And the reason why you duck this substantive point is that it undermines your thesis that Christians are irrational. But if the isrealis are good guys and the Christians line up with them, then you might realize that their faith seems to have led them to the most moral position and that might completely undermine your hatred.”

I agree with you that Israel is an island of hope in the Middle-Eastern ocean of despair and insanity.

However, there are plenty of “good guys” in the world that Christians aren’t supportive of as much as they are of Israel.

I’ve noticed that Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals aren’t nearly as supportive of Tibetans as they are of Israel, so there has to be another reason why they are supportive, apart from “they are the good guys.”

Oct 30, 2009 - 7:43 am 84. Markus:

“But the fact is that the attacker’s motive is a giant unknown. By comparison when a racial slur is used, on its face it is evidence of bias.”

That’s not necessarily true. Noose-hangings and racial slurs are often written by a member of the targeted group in order to gain attention and sympathy, to deflect attention, or to collect some ill-gotten benefit. Most of the black church burnings of the nineties, for instance, were started by the black congregents themselves, in order to get insurance money and other goodies from outraged sympathizers.

Oct 30, 2009 - 8:57 am 85. Dave K.:

Markus@84:
“Most of the black church burnings of the nineties, for instance, were started by the black congregents themselves, in order to get insurance money and other goodies from outraged sympathizers.”

Interesting.
Do you have any proof of that being the case?

Oct 30, 2009 - 9:01 am 86. bvw:

“Right-wing” is not a meaningful or proper descriptive term for these attackers. The Holocaust Museum shooter was a registered and voting Democrat, a raving Bush Hater, a neo-nazi — and the Nazis, and the Fascists were LEFT-WING as the term is understood today — that is socialists! Marxists, communists, fascists all shared in common a love of a central tyranny running everyone’s life, under a socialist economy and law system.

The Holocaust shooter had more in common with the white-hooded Klan, and also with the Nation of Islam, or the New Black Panther Party — all favor militaristic order, uniforms, and tyranny. And all hated Jews.

The segregationist and Klan Democrats of the South and North — for they were also very active in the north after the early 1900’s — all shared Jew Hatred too. And they DID NOT tun Republican magically, in the post-segregation era of the 60’s and 70’s. They voted less, sometimes, not often, for Republicans but they stayed Democrats. And they still hate Jews, and loathe Israel, the oppressor nation.

Most in the Jewish community do not understand this, for we live in only few areas in concentration, and in those political districts we do not see the old truly vile Democrats, nor do we know any Blacks of the Black Panther, Nation of Islam type. Instead we see a country club or social club or business club in our enclaves that is majority Republican and that banned Jews and may still practically ban them. Yet in those restrictive clubs, many support Israel, yet feel off-putting estrangement from Jews, and that more personal and local estrangement becomes sensed by we Jews far more painfully and hurtfully than that more dangerous loathing and hatred born against us by the left-wing, the real old-line Democrats, the new Islamic-schooled Muslim immigrants, such because we do not sense them day to day.

Oct 30, 2009 - 9:16 am 87. Mike:

Chesler is making assumptions out of ignornance.

I used to spend weekends in that neighborhood for years. In fact I even prayed at Adat Yeshurun Valley synagogue.

Everyone should know these facts.

1. That neighborhood has been controlled by violent gangs for close to the last two decades.

2. Shooting occur regularly in that neighborhood and have for years.

3. Homes and buildings have bars on their first floor windows.

4. Thousands of Jews along with blacks and hispanics live in that neighborhood.

Whether that shooting was racially motivated or not remains open to question but it is not the first time in that neighborhood that Jews or Gentiles have been shot at and shot and or killed by violent people.

When writing an article it is better to have the facts that subtitute your unsubstantiated prejudices.

Oct 30, 2009 - 9:19 am 88. A.W.:

Dave K.

> First of all, it’s never “Revelations” in plural.

Actually it is in my copy of the bible. But its good to see you focus on the substantive issues.

> And most Christians do believe in the End of Times, so your beliefs aren’t really that important for this discussion.

Well, first, you are the one who started with the “fundie Christians” attack, so now you are noticing that you were oversimplifying things. Well, good for you.

Further, you completely duck my points based on my knowledge of what different Christians believe. Now I won’t say that there are no Christians who believe what you claim they believe, but they are rare enough that you can’t name a single prominent one who does, and I don’t personally know a single one who does either.

> However, there are plenty of “good guys” in the world that Christians aren’t supportive of as much as they are of Israel.

Well, most of them haven’t been holocausted. I mean that is a slight difference, you know? And most of the other good guys in the world are not facing islamofascist terrorism. And if you wanted to say that Americans were uniquely desirous to help isreal because of lingering guilt over our own history of anti-semitism, I would say in many cases that is undeniably correct. And that is a little bit wrong, though compared to liberals who all but want to throw isreal under the bus, that’s not so bad.

> I’ve noticed that Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals aren’t nearly as supportive of Tibetans as they are of Israel, so there has to be another reason why they are supportive, apart from “they are the good guys.”

Well, now I am going to have to be a little politically incorrect, but while Tibet seemed like a reasonably harmless place prior to the Chinese occupation, the fact is that this was a fight between communist dictators and a theocratic regime, so its kind of a wash. Good guys? More like, the only slightly bad guys, because at the end of the day when they fight to put the dalai lama in charge, they are fighting for theocracy, not democracy. But yes theocracy is a bad thing. And there is a practical difference. China is a nuclear power. And there is a moral difference. The Jews have been holocausted. As brutal as china is, genocide is not part of their goals. Now I am sure you can pick out one country or another with one or two similarities with the isreali situation, but before you accuse people of hypocrisy you need an example that is a little more similar, because if there is an easy, obvious and substantive difference, you are wasting your keystrokes.

Oct 30, 2009 - 9:20 am 89. DavidN:

It now appears that the shooting wasn’t racially motivated. This according to the latest news reports. The cops are thinking random shooting or botched robbery. Haven’t caught the shooter yet, so they can’t be certain, but that’s what they think.

Oct 30, 2009 - 9:33 am 90. Dave K.:

A.W.@88:

“Actually it is in my copy of the bible. But its good to see you focus on the substantive issues.”

There are people with copies of the “Bible” that clearly state that Jesus built a hotrod for his believers to drive around with.
That doesn’t mean that their “Bibles” are correct.

It’a *A* revelation, not a bunch of revelations.

“Well, first, you are the one who started with the “fundie Christians” attack, so now you are noticing that you were oversimplifying things. Well, good for you.

Further, you completely duck my points based on my knowledge of what different Christians believe. Now I won’t say that there are no Christians who believe what you claim they believe, but they are rare enough that you can’t name a single prominent one who does, and I don’t personally know a single one who does either.”

Jerry Falwell
Jonathan Falwell
Pat Robertson
John Hagee
Gary Bauer

If you want any more names, please use google and/or bing.

“Well, now I am going to have to be a little politically incorrect, but while Tibet seemed like a reasonably harmless place prior to the Chinese occupation, the fact is that this was a fight between communist dictators and a theocratic regime, so its kind of a wash. Good guys? More like, the only slightly bad guys, because at the end of the day when they fight to put the dalai lama in charge, they are fighting for theocracy, not democracy. But yes theocracy is a bad thing. And there is a practical difference. China is a nuclear power. And there is a moral difference. The Jews have been holocausted. As brutal as china is, genocide is not part of their goals. Now I am sure you can pick out one country or another with one or two similarities with the isreali situation, but before you accuse people of hypocrisy you need an example that is a little more similar, because if there is an easy, obvious and substantive difference, you are wasting your keystrokes.”

How about the Armenians?

1.5 million Armenians (Christian) being systematically murdered (or “holocausted/genocided”, if you will) by the Turks of the Ottoman Empire (Sunni Islam).

Then followed by Soviet rule of Armenia.

Is that a fair equivalent of suffering and hardship for you?
Do Armenians satisfy your “good guy” requirements and do the Ottoman Empire, Iran, and the Soviet Union satisfy your “bad guy” requirement?

The fact that three of Armenia’s neighbors are Azerbaijan, Iran and Turkey (a.k.a the Trifecta of Chaotic Evil) doesn’t make things better.

And I haven’t seen any Christian Fundamentalists even care a fraction about Armenians, their plight or wanting to help them in comparison to the resources being spent on Israel.

So, yeah, helping Israel just because they’re the “good guys” isn’t really a truthful argument.

But I’m sure that you’ll find my arguments invalid, since Armenians aren’t Jews in Israel.

Oct 30, 2009 - 10:00 am 91. A.W.:

Dave K.

> That doesn’t mean that their “Bibles” are correct.

Well, given that you apparently have no idea what Christians actually believe, pardon me if I don’t take you as the authority on correct translation on the term “revelations.”

> Jerry Falwell
Jonathan Falwell
Pat Robertson
John Hagee
Gary Bauer

So they are actively seeking to bring on the ends times. Not merely predicting it but taking steps to cause it to happen?

You do remember that this is what we were talking about, right?

Good, then prove it.

> How about the Armenians?

Reread what I wrote about the isrealis v. the Tibetans. See if any of the arguments apply equally to Armenians v. the isrealis, Then notice you have just answered the question for yourself. *rolls eyes* And even after I told you how to figure it out for yourself, you couldn’t do it.

You’re like a Rottweiler who just clamps down and refuses to let go. Problem is you have clamped down on a heaping pile of anti-christian bigotry and no amount of facts will make you let go.

Oct 30, 2009 - 11:00 am 92. Dave K.:

A.W.@91:
“Well, given that you apparently have no idea what Christians actually believe, pardon me if I don’t take you as the authority on correct translation on the term “revelations.””

The title found on some of the earliest manuscripts is “The Revelation of John” (Ἀποκάλυψις Ἰωάννου), and the most common title found on later manuscripts is “The Revelation of the theologian” Ἀποκάλυψις τοῦ Θεολόγου.

The Greek word ἀποκάλυψις, sometimes rendered directly from the Greek as apocalypse, is usually translated in English as revelation, since the literal meaning of the Greek word is “the act of revealing or unveiling”).

Some later manuscripts add Evangelist or Apostle to the title.
The book is effectively composed with its title within the opening words: “Revelation (Ἀποκάλυψις) of Jesus Christ”.

“So they are actively seeking to bring on the ends times. Not merely predicting it but taking steps to cause it to happen?

You do remember that this is what we were talking about, right?

Good, then prove it.”

The “ingathering” of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus.

Before Jesus comes back, there will be the Great Tribulation, and the campaign of Armageddon.

So they actively working on getting Armageddon started.
Good enough for you?

“Reread what I wrote about the isrealis v. the Tibetans. See if any of the arguments apply equally to Armenians v. the isrealis, Then notice you have just answered the question for yourself. *rolls eyes* And even after I told you how to figure it out for yourself, you couldn’t do it.

You’re like a Rottweiler who just clamps down and refuses to let go. Problem is you have clamped down on a heaping pile of anti-christian bigotry and no amount of facts will make you let go.”

I honestly don’t understand your reasoning.

Armenians have been “holocausted”, “diasporaed”, have been fighting and are fighting against Islam and they are Christians and have been so since the 4th century, C.E.

Why is Armenia less worthy of support from the Evangelical Fundamentalists than Israel?

Please explain it to me.

Oct 30, 2009 - 11:24 am 93. Markus:

DaveK: here are some articles on the great church burning hoax.
http://www.fumento.com/suarson.html

Oct 30, 2009 - 12:18 pm 94. A.W.:

Dave K.

> The title found

Who do you think you are fooling with that cut and paste job?

The fact is that the book has a lot of revelations in it, so a correct translation can be either “revelation” calling it one big revelation, or “revelations” meaning a multitude. Its just how you choose to count it.

> Good enough for you?

No, because you haven’t proven intent. Seriously are you actually this slow, or are you just faking it to be a troll? Indeed, I seem to recall that you correctly pointed out to someone that we look at the intent behind an act all the time in the criminal law. But you don’t seem to grasp that intent matters, here, too.

And, by the way, there is a world of difference between allegation and proof. You have so far alleged facts but not proven them. I mean look I am sure you think I am the irrational guy believing in God and the like, but can’t you show a little more mental rigor here?

> I honestly don’t understand your reasoning.

Well, if you can’t understand English, this might explain your confusion over revelations, but even then I am not going to repeat myself.

Oct 30, 2009 - 1:03 pm 95. Dave K.:

A.W.@94:

“Who do you think you are fooling with that cut and paste job?

The fact is that the book has a lot of revelations in it, so a correct translation can be either “revelation” calling it one big revelation, or “revelations” meaning a multitude. Its just how you choose to count it.”

You can’t admit that you were wrong, so you’re grasping at straws.

And anyone who’s actually bothered to read the Bible, the history of Bible, and its various translations will laugh at you for being uneducated and proudly ignorant.

Just find any priest, young or old, and ask him.

“No, because you haven’t proven intent. Seriously are you actually this slow, or are you just faking it to be a troll? Indeed, I seem to recall that you correctly pointed out to someone that we look at the intent behind an act all the time in the criminal law. But you don’t seem to grasp that intent matters, here, too.

And, by the way, there is a world of difference between allegation and proof. You have so far alleged facts but not proven them. I mean look I am sure you think I am the irrational guy believing in God and the like, but can’t you show a little more mental rigor here?”

All Christians (except you) want Jesus to return.

The Christian Zionists believe that the only way to get Christ to come back is to start Armageddon.

And the first step in starting Armageddon is to get all Jews back to Israel.

The Christian Zionists spend millions of dollars to get Jews to Israel.
Therefore, even if their intent is good, they are still trying to start Armageddon.

They are willfully trying to lit a fuse that will lead to an explosion.

If you cannot understand the line of reasoning above then maybe converting to a simpler religion would be a good idea.

Maybe The Holy Church of Ralph Wiggum is more suitable for you?

“Well, if you can’t understand English, this might explain your confusion over revelations, but even then I am not going to repeat myself.”

You are unable to refute my arguments, so you try to deflect your failure with haughtiness and arrogance.

Fact: Armenians are “good guys” who are fighting “the good fight” against “bad guys” and they’ve been victims of genocide.

Armenians are Christians and they’ve been fighting against Islam for over 1000 years.

And yet no money is spent on Armenians by Christian Zionists, because Israel is where Armageddon will start, and not because “Israel is a good guy” as you so tragically incorrectly stated in a previous posting.

Oct 30, 2009 - 1:31 pm 96. A.W.:

and if you want to know where Dave K was getting his information from, its here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Revelation

A straight cut and paste job that he then tries to pass of as his original text. heh.

The reality is whether a word is singular or plural is often an editorial choice, often reflecting attitudes. For instance, as James MacPherson noted in his book about Abraham Lincoln and the Second American Revolution, prior to the Civil War it was common to say that “the United States are…” but after the Civil War, people said, “the United States is…” In other words, the phrase “United States” went from being a plural to a singular. And depending on how you looked at it, either one correct. one one hand, they are united states. on the other hand, e pluribus unum–that is, out of many, one.

Likewise you can rightly call a whole book full of prophesies a giant singular revelation, or multiple revelations. its an editorial choice and there really is no one right answer.

Oct 30, 2009 - 1:56 pm 97. Deb:

27And he answered, “(A)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” Jesus Christ, a Jew

Oct 30, 2009 - 3:03 pm 98. blotto:

n&t: Hey vile boy.

“And the snare slams shut again! that quote wasn’t mine, it was blotto who said, “American Jews could care less about Israel.” Take it up with him. I believe he’s a conservative who votes Republican. You know, some animals actually chew through their leg to free themselves from a trap. Hope you’re hungry.”

And I thank you.

I am thrilled you quoted me. And just how did my quote fit into the debate. And tell us great Karnac why it is that American Jews vote and side with the likes of you?

If you had taken the quote further, but then that would be honest, you would have let the readers see that American Jews vote ideology over anything else including Isreal. And that my butt boy, comes from several conservative Jews like Horowitz, Bortz and Prager among others.

This coming from a guy who made fun of Beck’s special needs child. I say no more.

So butt boy, weasel out of this one.

And dk my you have made many posters here happy to know you are truly delusional. You think you must WIN when you don’t actually know you’ve lost already.

Oct 30, 2009 - 3:16 pm 99. The Bird:

This site is a Zionist front.

Do not post your opinions on the site any longer.

sincerely,

The Bird

Oct 30, 2009 - 4:11 pm 100. MiamaMan:

63. Bilgeman:

[#55 MiamaMan:
“There won’t be peace on Earth until man becomes one with God.”

Pardon my cynicism, but THAT doesn’t sound very promising.]

No, I agree with you. I often fall under such cynicism. It is hard not to, given what surrounds us. Ultimately I know this is the solution. The spiritual evolution is for the triumph of God here on Earth, not is some heaven. Ignorance and evil a means to an end.

Oct 30, 2009 - 4:19 pm 101. logos1j1:

David K @4,
“Fundamentalist” is at this point a virtually meaningless term given the way people throw it around, and you are a perfect example. All of the Christians you are talking about are set apart in these beliefs by the doctrine (false, in my opinion) of Dispensational Premillenialism, not their “fundamentalism”. This is a particular way of approaching all of the Bible’s apocalyptic literature, of which Revelation is only a part.

Your assertions concerning Christian support of Israel does not explain why Christians such as myself (who are neither Dispensationalist nor Premillenarian) support Israel. And throughout history, and in the present day, we are the majority. The DPs have become very popular, very vocal and very popular with the media over the last fifty plus years or so. This makes many people with only a passing knowledge of Christianity think this is the majority or even the universal view, but it isn’t. Actually Amillenialism/Postmillenialism is.

A.W.
The opening words of the book in question are “The revelation of Jesus Christ….” It’s in the singular (I’ve studied Greek). No it can’t be translated any other way, and if you read the book as a unified work with one theme (which it is) I think it will make much more sense to you. If I may – it’ll be a revelation! You need to drop this argument – and apparently get a new Bible!

I’m as disgusted with American and Christian lack of support for Armenia as anyone – particularly the refusal of Congress to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. But this has much more to do with geopolitics than Christian hypocrisy. For decades, under Soviet rule America could do nothing anyway (beyond taking refuges). Since then we have helped a lot, but the strategic importance of Turkey in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the region generally now interfere. I don’t think this is an excuse, however. Tibet is a totally different issue: it isn’t comparable.

Oct 30, 2009 - 6:04 pm 102. Dave K.:

101. logos1j1:
““Fundamentalist” is at this point a virtually meaningless term given the way people throw it around, and you are a perfect example. All of the Christians you are talking about are set apart in these beliefs by the doctrine (false, in my opinion) of Dispensational Premillenialism, not their “fundamentalism”. This is a particular way of approaching all of the Bible’s apocalyptic literature, of which Revelation is only a part.

Your assertions concerning Christian support of Israel does not explain why Christians such as myself (who are neither Dispensationalist nor Premillenarian) support Israel. And throughout history, and in the present day, we are the majority. The DPs have become very popular, very vocal and very popular with the media over the last fifty plus years or so. This makes many people with only a passing knowledge of Christianity think this is the majority or even the universal view, but it isn’t. Actually Amillenialism/Postmillenialism is.”

I understand Christianity as a concept, just not its followers.
It is a fascinating subject matter.

Maybe the Christians who aren’t into starting Armageddon see support of Israel as validation of their beliefs, since Israeli landmarks are proof that the events in the New Testament have some historical validity?

“”I’m as disgusted with American and Christian lack of support for Armenia as anyone – particularly the refusal of Congress to acknowledge the Armenian genocide. But this has much more to do with geopolitics than Christian hypocrisy. For decades, under Soviet rule America could do nothing anyway (beyond taking refuges). Since then we have helped a lot, but the strategic importance of Turkey in our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and in the region generally now interfere. I don’t think this is an excuse, however. Tibet is a totally different issue: it isn’t comparable.”"

I can understand why US Christians might find supporting a Buddhist culture to be less than appealing, but the fact that Armenia isn’t getting as much support as Israel from the Christian communities in the US is just strange.

Especially since Armenians really, really believe in Christ and were the first ones to adopt Christianity as an official state religion, whereas Israelis aren’t really into Christianity that much, for obvious reasons.

And by obvious reasons, I mean that Israelis are mostly Jewish and not that Israelis hate Christians.

Oct 30, 2009 - 8:16 pm 103. Gary Rosen:

This is a laugh, “markus” commenting on antisemitism. Who’s next, David Duke and Farrakhan?

“I’d recommend that you read Kevin MacDonald, the most eloquent anti-Jewish critic”

Only a dyed-in-the-wool, fanatic antisemitic hatemonger could call antisemitism “eloquent”. But what else would you expect from a slimeball who compulsively spews out antisemitic venom and compares Israel to Nazi Germany?

Oct 30, 2009 - 11:33 pm 104. Now and Then:

98. blotto:

Blotto, Blotto. Blotto . . . i didn’t qualify or misrepresent anything you said. I merely repeated it. You taking the time to defend what you said does nothing to remove the reactionary and negative response it evoked from your fellow conservatives. I’ll leave it to you right wingers to determine among yourselves just how much you hate the Jews.

“Horowitz, Bortz and Prager” . . . I understand that you need someone to tell you what to think, but you should really raise your standards.

Oct 31, 2009 - 8:34 am 105. A.W.:

Logos

> The opening words of the book in question are “The revelation of Jesus Christ….” It’s in the singular

It may very well be singular in another language, but in the process of translation its appropriate to change that. For instance, in Russian a ship is male, but in English a ship is female (as in “she’s a sturdy craft”). The fact is you could call it one big revelation or a series of revelations and either one is correct, it just depends on how you think of what that book contains.

> But this has much more to do with geopolitics than Christian hypocrisy.

I think you are a little confused about the argument between me and David K. David is saying that there is no difference between Armenia and isreal, except its connection to revelations so he claims that when Christians send jews to isreal it is to bring about the end of days.

Dave K.

> I can understand why US Christians might find supporting a Buddhist culture to be less than appealing

Oh give me a break. If anything most of the support for a free Tibet is by Americans who have a stereotypical view of a Buddhist shangra-la. The average American probably thinks they are all monks chanting all day. The real truth is that Tibet was a theocracy and the Lama was their God-appointed king, as well as their pope. The better term for him would be “Pharoah.”

> that Armenia isn’t getting as much support as Israel from the Christian communities in the US is just strange.

No, in fact Logos explained a lot of the reason why. But you are too thick to follow. Or you are a troll. Hard to say which.

> I understand Christianity as a concept, just not its followers. It is a fascinating subject matter.

Why do I get the feeling that your attempts to understand are seen in your mind like jane goodall studying her chimps.

And no, you don’t understand Christianity. That’s the point of my whole discussion. You have never understood the difference between predicting a thing, even perhaps longing for a thing and believing you can or should make it happen.

I said toward the beginning of this post that anti-semitism is real. so is anti-christianism, although to be fair it rarely turns to violence (unlike anti-semitism).

Oct 31, 2009 - 8:47 am 106. Dave K.:

A.W.@105:
“It may very well be singular in another language, but in the process of translation its appropriate to change that. For instance, in Russian a ship is male, but in English a ship is female (as in “she’s a sturdy craft”). The fact is you could call it one big revelation or a series of revelations and either one is correct, it just depends on how you think of what that book contains.”

Just admit that you were wrong and move on, Mr. Bible Scholar.

“I think you are a little confused about the argument between me and David K. David is saying that there is no difference between Armenia and isreal, except its connection to revelations so he claims that when Christians send jews to isreal it is to bring about the end of days.”

No, that’s not what I’m saying.

What I’m saying is that Armenia is as deserving of support from its fellow Christians in the US as Israel and, yet, Israel gets all the support.

And, rationally, Armenians should get more support, because they are fellow Christians and Israelis are not.

So the support that US Christians give to Israel is not because Israel is “one of the good guys”, but for other reasons.

“Oh give me a break. If anything most of the support for a free Tibet is by Americans who have a stereotypical view of a Buddhist shangra-la. The average American probably thinks they are all monks chanting all day. The real truth is that Tibet was a theocracy and the Lama was their God-appointed king, as well as their pope. The better term for him would be “Pharoah.””

My point was that, in general, people are more likely to help and support those more similar to themselves.

I am actually agreeing with you.

Tibet was a bad example for me to use because its culture is too alien for people of the West.

That’s why I used Armenia instead.

“No, in fact Logos explained a lot of the reason why. But you are too thick to follow. Or you are a troll. Hard to say which.”

Logos1j1 did not explain why Israel is being supported over other countries with a similar culture and struggle.

And your simplistic “they’re good guys” analysis is just incorrect.

“Why do I get the feeling that your attempts to understand are seen in your mind like jane goodall studying her chimps.”

Your words, not mine.
Persecution complex is a Christian tradition, so you’re forgiven for thinking that I’m a Roman Internet Centurion who’s ready to throw you to the cyber-lions.

“And no, you don’t understand Christianity. That’s the point of my whole discussion. You have never understood the difference between predicting a thing, even perhaps longing for a thing and believing you can or should make it happen.”

One more time:

Christian Zionists are spending millions of dollars trying to get Jews to move to Israel.

That is a fact.

The reason why Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists are actively working to get the Jews to go back to Israel is because that’s one of the initial steps to get Jesus to return.

In summary:

0. Jews return to Israel.
1. The Rapture.
2. The Rise of Antichrist and the False Prophet.
3. The Third Temple.
4. The Rise of Babylon.
5. The Rise of the one-world religion.
6. The appearance of the two witnesses and the Jewish evangelists.
7. The Seven Seal Judgments.
8. The Seven Trumpet Judgments.
9. Death and Resurrection of the Two Witnesses.
10. Destruction of the One World Church.
11. The death and resurrection of Antichrist.
12. Antichrist defiles the temple and proclaims himself God.
13. The Mark of the Beast begins.
14. The Jewish Remnant flees to the desert.
15. 7 Bowl Judgments.
16. Martyrdom of Jews and Believers.
17. Babylon is destroyed.
18. Antichrist summons the world’s armies to Armageddon.
19. Battle of Armageddon.
21. Return of Jesus Christ in Glory. Huzzah!

Christian Zionists such as Jerry Falwell, John Hagee, Pat Robertson, etc. are trying to make this happen by actively working on getting the Jews to move back to Israel.

The Christian Zionists believe that they should/will make this happen.

Oct 31, 2009 - 10:45 am 107. logos1j1:

A.W., 105:

“I think you are a little confused…”

I’m not confused. I merely entered into the conversation to clarify some points that I thought needed clarification and address the issues I was interested in. Your manner is very condescending.

“It may very well be singular in another language….” No, no: it IS. And the “other language” in question is the one it was originally written in! You are so completely wrong on this. But I’m done arguing about it. It would be pointless.

Oct 31, 2009 - 5:06 pm 108. Mark49:

Maybe if people in California could carry a concealed weapon this person would now be dead and we would then know who he really is.

Oct 31, 2009 - 8:26 pm 109. Oscar the Grump:

Living in LA is a curious situation. It is living in ethnic ghettos which are armed to the teeth. Note that LA has some of the most stringent gun control laws in the nation. That doesn’t stop the neighborhoods from arming themselves. The Jewish population in this city has come a long way from the days where a Jew would not own a gun. Although the antigun sentiment is still strong in this community, there has been a major turnaround since the riots of ‘95. Many Jews purchased guns since then and have taught themselves to use them. Add to this the mix of Israeli Jews and Russian Jews who were trained in the military and you have a real hardened base of capable gun owners.

The recent shooting in the synagogue had the potential of starting an ethnic civil war. Credit the mayor of the city with coming out and stating that this was not a hate crime. He did a lot to cool the sentiment in the city and disarming a potential explosive situation.

On the other hand, I wonder what would have been the black response if the headline read, “Two blacks shot at church by a white man, or a Jew.” I seriously doubt that they would have been so restrained.

Nov 1, 2009 - 12:16 pm 110. Ed:

Well, it’s a good thing that this was not a coordinated terrorist attack! Valley Deputy Chief Moore, and/or whoever was in charge of the command post and clearing out the Synagogue and surrounding neighbor hood (my neighborhood) should be relieved of their post for allowing the crime scene to be walked all over by anyone with a desire to do so. Further more, it’s a darn good thing that this was not a Beslan Russia type attack, where the attackers waited for all the people to gather in one spot then punched off an explosive device. I mean do these politicians and LAPD management hacks not understand what this world is up against. Not to be an alarmist, but we might have escaped massive casualties this time, but what if this were a coordinated attack by a terrorist organization? Moore is demonstrably incompetent, hence the reason the suspect is still at large. Lock it down, that is about as basic as Joe Friday! How did this Moore guy surpass the other great candidates?
If this was run by Valley Deputy Chief Mike Moore, then I am more than unimpressed by his extremely ignorant understanding of world events, and ability to keep us safe in a post 9-11 world. Someone give this guy a clue about how to do basic police work. What needs to happen for our elected officials and police management to buy a vowel and solve the equation? Or at least not look like a bunch of circus clowns at a microphone stroking each others ego’s while a criminal is on the loose. Just lucky this wasn’t more serious, this time around.
Thank God this wasn’t a more serious situation, and more people didn’t get hurt. Now I hope the LAPD catches the people responsible for this crime.
Mayor Villaragosa, better think long and hard about letting such an incompitent man (Chief Mike Moore) be in charge of the police force intrusted with protecting us.

Nov 1, 2009 - 7:11 pm 111. A.W.:

Dave K

> Just admit that you were wrong and move on, Mr. Bible Scholar.

No, sir, Wikipedia Brown.

> What I’m saying is that Armenia is as deserving of support from its fellow Christians in the US as Israel and, yet, Israel gets all the support.

Deserves isn’t even the whole picture, but thank you for playing.

> And, rationally, Armenians should get more support, because they are fellow Christians and Israelis are not.

Actually, that kind of tribalism is neither rational nor Christian. Jesus teaches us that our neighbor is the good Samaritan, not the guy who happens to look like you or believe what you do. But thank you for that window into your thinking.

I know it is getting to be a tired trope to say that seeing a person as an “other” is a sign of some kind of bigotry, but it really applies in your case. See the Jane Goodall stuff below.

> So the support that US Christians give to Israel is not because Israel is “one of the good guys”, but for other reasons.

Which you claim is a desire to bring on the end of days, without having adequately eliminated those other reasons.

> My point was that

That you think Christians are small minded bigots who only care about their own “kind.” Projection can he a fascinating phenomen.

> Tibet was a bad example for me to use because its culture is too alien for people of the West.

No, that is just it. Its not all that alien at all. Its government is fairly typical theocratic monarchy with the only twist being that it is not succession by blood but by reincarnation which probably in truth more resembles the papal selection than either the pope nor the Buddhists are likely to admit. If you ignore all that mumbo jumbo it is actually drearily familiar.

> That’s why I used Armenia instead.

After getting slapped around on Tibet.

> Logos1j1 did not explain why Israel

He explained several of the differences between Isreal and Armenia.

> so you’re forgiven for thinking…

…something I neither said nor implied. But we are getting a window into your thinking. You fundamentally don’t understand Christians and fundamentally don’t identify with them on any level. There is no attempt to take these views seriously and understand what we actually believe. So indeed, you are like jane goodall and her chimps, at least in your mind, considering us a subject of detached study, with an ever-present recognition of your innate (perceived) superiority.

> The reason why Christian Zionists and Dispensationalists are actively working to get the Jews to go back to Israel is because that’s one of the initial steps to get Jesus to return.

Notice that unlike your previous sentence, you don’t declare that this is a fact. That is because it is not a proven fact that any significant percentage of them see it that way. I have repeatedly challenged you to prove your claims and you have failed. You have tried and failed to attack the simpler explanations, and you have failed to summon a single prominent Christian leader who says “let’s send the jews to isreal so we can bring about the end of days.” Instead all you have is a surmise that seems logical enough to you, but utterly disconnected with any, you know, facts.

Logos

You can insist all you want, but the fact is you could call that book a series of revelations or one big one and both would be arguably correct. Really, parsing a translation is just silliness.

Nov 2, 2009 - 7:39 am 112. A.W.:

Dave K.

Missed this one. I think you were in moderation limbo:

> And anyone who’s actually bothered to read the Bible, the history of Bible, and its various translations will laugh at you for being uneducated and proudly ignorant.

You can’t prove me wrong, so you are just left declaring I am anyway. Whatever.

> All Christians (except you) want Jesus to return.

First, when talking about humans, “all” is usually wrong unless it is a tautology. Sheesh.

Second, I didn’t say I didn’t want jesus to return. I said I didn’t think it meant the end of the world. Man you are just slow.

> The Christian Zionists believe that the only way to get Christ to come back is to start Armageddon.

Well, first, notice again you are subdividing off the Christian fundies from the Christian Zionists. Because of course not every Christian who supports isreal against its enemies buys into any of this—not even all of the fundies.

Second, you incorrectly assert that they believe they can hurry the end of days on. I dispute that claim.

Third, you incorrectly state that indeed the only way Jesus can return is if THEY start armaggeddon. As though you could stave it off indefinitely by, what? Destroying isreal? Do you consider God so easy to manipulate? Most Christians do not.

> And the first step in starting Armageddon is to get all Jews back to Israel.

Wrong. It is God deciding its time for it to happen. And he can do so with or without our help.

> The Christian Zionists spend millions of dollars to get Jews to Israel. Therefore, even if their intent is good, they are still trying to start Armageddon.

But you still haven’t proven that they are sending them there in order to start Armageddon.

Take this example. Imagine a white guy is an unreconstructed racist and he shoots a black man in the leg. So you call that a hate crime, right?

Well, not necessarily. What the black man admitted that he was coming at that white man with a knife, with the intent to harm, when the white man shot him in the leg? Then racist or not, that white man has a right to defend himself, right?

It is not enough to say a person has a motive that might lead to bad intent, but you have to prove the bad intent actually motivates the conduct. That is what you keep missing in this discussion.

Now they blab all the time in making their pitches, so I am sure it wouldn’t be hard to find if it existed. Find me a quote where they say, “its important for us to send these jews to zion to bring on the coming of Jesus Christ.” If that’s their motivation, why is it through all of these discussions, you can’t come up with a single quote like that?

> If you cannot understand the line of reasoning above

It works on its own terms. The problem is that you haven’t established that any Christians, let alone a sizable portion of them, ascribe to the specific theological views necessary to put that together, including the hidden assumption about how prone God might be to man’s manipulation.

> You are unable to refute my arguments

No, I already refuted them. Logos refuted them more. You are just too slow to figure it out.

> Fact: Armenians are “good guys” who are fighting “the good fight” against “bad guys” and they’ve been victims of genocide.

Except for the genocide part, none of those are facts. They are opinions.

> And yet no money is spent on Armenians by Christian Zionists

Not even a single cent? I can assure you again that your absolutism is misplaced.

Nov 2, 2009 - 12:27 pm 113. A.W.:

Oh, btw, there is another reason to send jews there and it is very pragmatic. when jews run the holy land christians can visit it with little fear of violence from jews. but as of this date, i cannot feel safe visiting bethlehem because the palestinians are likely to take me hostage and then try to force me to pretend to convert while declaring that there is no coercion in islam. there is that, too, you know?

Nov 2, 2009 - 12:32 pm 114. logos1j1:

A.W., 111:

“Really, parsing a translation is just silliness.”

Yes, it is. Unless you’re translating. Then it’s essential.

Nov 2, 2009 - 4:53 pm 115. A.W.:

Logos

Simple yes or no. Is there, or isn’t there alot of judgement that goes into translation?

Whether a thing is called singular or plural is a matter of judgment. As i mentioned above, for instance, at one time it was considered proper to say that “The United States are…” after the civil war, it became accepted to say “The United States is…” In other words, before the civil war the US was described as a collection of states, whereas after it was considered one unit. That is a judgement call and indeed a political call, too.

The exact same issues exists with revelations/revelation. you can see it all as one big revelation, or you can see it as a group of them. You say the greeks made one decision on the subject. Fair enough. But it doesn’t put the issue in stone and a later person can honestly disagree on the subject and that is all it is.

Nov 3, 2009 - 6:42 am 116. logos1j1:

A.W.

“Simple yes or no. Is there, or isn’t there alot of judgement that goes into translation?”

The question is too broad for a simple yes or no. It depends on the word or passage in question.

“Whether a thing is called singular or plural is a matter of judgment.”

NO. (Here that simple answer IS possible.) It’s a matter of NUMBER.

“it was considered proper to say that “The United States are…” after the civil war, it became accepted to say “The United States is…””

This example is not relevant to the Biblical passage in question.

“you can see it all as one big revelation, or you can see it as a group of them.

It’s not a matter of what you or I “see”. It’s a matter of what JOHN WROTE.

“You say the greeks made one decision on the subject”

No. I’m saying THE Greek (the language) has the word “apocalypse” in the singular. And this is essential to a correct understanding of the book.

You’re like a dog with a tasteless old bone. It’s ridiculous to cling to your arguments. No one who actually knows Greek is going to buy them for a minute. You made a simple mistake. You were corrected by those with more knowledge in the area than yourself. And yet you refuse to admit the mistake! Making mistakes is just part of being human. Get over it and get used to it.

Now I really am done. I’ve been drawn back into this argument too many times already – my mistake.

Nov 3, 2009 - 11:36 am 117. A.W.:

The fact is you admit it made sense that the term United States could turn from singular to plural but not that revelations can go from singular to plural.

You hang it all on what a dead man wrote in greek. And not even what jesus wrote, but a man who came after him, writing in something other than the language jesus spoke in. John was a desciple but he was human. His decisions are subject to question, and your belief that it isn’t is, apparently, at its root a religious one. well, fair enough but then you can’t complain that i don’t share all of the same religious underpinnings of your argument.

So revelations is correct, too.

Nov 3, 2009 - 12:00 pm 118. ralphie:

“Open Season on Jews”

Promises, promises…..

Nov 6, 2009 - 11:34 am

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