103 Comments

1. MiamaMan:

Phyyyyylliiiiis!

Ha, ha, you are the best. I so much enjoy your “New York” writing style.

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/imgLib/20080507_chesler_for_articles.jpg

This all would be very funny, if the subject would not be so damn serious.

Almaleki needs “Sicherheitsdienst” treatment.

You know, I think Eileen Wournos’ crimes were also honor killings, and she should be rehabilitated right here in Florida.

As for Rabia, “rabia” in Spanish means rabies, there you have a good defense if the case is given to a Jewish attorney. She is a candidate for returning to the Funny Farm (loony bin).

Muzzammil needs colon cleansing using Metamucil.

Wow, hope Eddie comes out OK, at least he is half Aryan.

Nov 1, 2009 - 1:35 pm 2. Evil Pundit:

Perhaps the Sarwar case is an example of the Islamic version of gender equality?

Nov 1, 2009 - 1:43 pm 3. Barb:

G_d love you, Phyllis, for speaking the truth in this age of doublespeak and political correctness.

Nov 1, 2009 - 1:49 pm 4. George Jochnowitz:

Individuals may be psychotic. Psychosis is an illness and a tragedy to its victims and to those who come into contact with them. Communities have also been known to go crazy. Individuals who are not personally psychotic may nevertheless get swept up by a plague of craziness that afflicts the whole community and those who come into contact with them. These are generally independent phenomena. but occasionally they overlap and a psychotic person may belong to a crazy community. That may be what happened to Rabia Sarwar.

Germany, a sane and productive society, noted for its scholarship and its music, went crazy during the Hitler years. After a long and bloody war, Germany was defeated. The United States forced democracy down the throat of Germany–a most undemocratic thing to do. Nevertheless, it worked. Germany today is once again sane and productive. Can today’s psychotic societies be cured? Time will tell.

Nov 1, 2009 - 2:41 pm 5. Judy, NYC:

i don’t care what they do to each other, as long as they kill each other off.

Nov 1, 2009 - 2:55 pm 6. HellenoChristian:

I don’t know about denial’s articles, but from a comment by Amil Imani, I know the husband states his (now ex) wife is mentally sick. I should say that this man is denying that she “simply” enforced the “Honor”/”Horror” mentality and better, the “Islamic” mentality.

Thinking about the woman, it seems she comes from Islamic Pakistan and did not mix with the foreigner (”made of bitch-women and corrupted-men”) [*] culture: I would therefore suggest she simply got impressed by the Islamic culture of Pakistan, where girls and women are considered and treated worts than bad, and more often than rarely harshly “Honor”/”Horror” attacked by their husbands/brothers/….

In the West Islamic women from Pakistan still be subjected to husband’s mood and their daughter to arranged (forced) marriages – where mixing with locals is strictly forbidden [**].

NOTES

[*] An evidence of the present and future success of Multiculturalism’s theory (not to forget that these bitch-corrupted foreigners are “white”, too)

[**] But when it comes to Racism and any kind of -Phobia, we (white corrupted bitches) are the only and certain perpetrators: others (non-white pure virgins) are always and just victims

—

About this case I anyway have questions about the man (two divorces already and then an arranged marriage by allegedly integralist, and anyway Islamic, relatives – wich is now the 3rd divorce? I would like to know more about his personality, not just about the mentality and personality of the now ex-wife from Islamic Pakistan).

About “Honor”/”Horror” attacks and killings, I think either men stop commit them, or women start paying back, in order that men will eventually understand that such mentality and practices (”Honor”/”Horror”/”Islamic” attacks and killings) have to be abandoned and abolished. Threatening and treating them, the way they (unjustly) threaten and treat women, will it help them to develop “Empathy”?

Altogether: “Treatement of women in (Islamic) Pakistan – part 2″. Enjoy …: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbUowMoz5A0&feature=player_embedded

Nov 1, 2009 - 5:25 pm 7. David W. Lincoln:

Anything that detracts from the “light” is to be buried in the deepest trench, or spun so that
it bears no resemblance to what actually happened.

Such is the need to be seen to be right, that actually being right would be a horse of a very different colour.

Nov 1, 2009 - 5:46 pm 8. bbloom:

The sad reality is that these people come from a culture that is devoid of love. If you love your spouse (at any point in a relationship)even if things don’t work out in the long run, you get a divorce and move on. What I find the hardest to accept with Muslims is the lack of parent/child love. I think the lack of love is the single biggest difference between Islam and Jews or Christians.Muslims see no value in life. I am always amused by bumper stickers that say “coexist”, how do you coexist with people who’s sole purpose in life is to end your existence? A culture that is not even capable of peace in their own homes and has no qualms with butchering their own families? This is a blight on humanity. It needs to be contained within the borders of Muslim countries.People look at Europe, and wake up!!!

Nov 1, 2009 - 5:57 pm 9. Proud_Kafir7908:

Muzzammil needs colon cleansing using Metamucil. – Posted by MiamaMan.

Maybe his defense team could come up with a miraculous explanation on why carrying around 500 lbs of blubber could have given him a mental illness. They could also claim that mahoundianism, the inbred bedouin savage cult from the 7th-Century A-rabian desert pedophiles, could be diagnosed as such and, therefore, give their client the basis for an insanity plea.

Nov 2, 2009 - 12:39 am 10. Tina Trent:

George’s point is an important one: social mores can encourage insanity. It also sounds as if some of these people are mentally ill and cling to rigid religious beliefs to justify internal disorder and incapacity. There are disorganized hangers-on to every religion: they should be seen for what they are: mentally ill.

I am also troubled by the increasing insistence here that these crimes must not be equated with other acts of family violence not involving Islam. Dr. Chesler, you know that the dynamics of extreme domestic violence frequently include absolute power and ownership over family members, and you know that many communities, not just Islamic ones, find ways to legitimate and conceal acts of sexual violation and violence that occur within families.

You are going down a troubling road. You are beginning to minimize other acts of domestic violence and familial murder to make a political point. What is your ultimate goal here: to create higher penalties for those crimes you deem Islamic honor killings? Why?

Will you sacrifice the dignity and legal rights of non-Islamic murder victims to achieve this? You are already insisting that there is some type of conspiracy when the media does not talk enough about these cases: I could send you the names of a thousand murder victims who received no attention in the media since you started this campaign. Do they not matter too? Each was killed by somebody’s hand. Each was victimized by somebody believe they had the right to take their life for some reason.

Documenting the phenomenon of honor killing is important. begin certain that the perpetrators are prosecuted is important. Prevention is important. But when you begin to demand that the media behave in a different way towards these crimes, you lose me. That is privilege, not justice. And if you believe the law should treat these cases differently, what you are demanding is both privilege and prejudice — this is why the hate crimes movement has been so damaging.

And Judy: listen to yourself. Kill each other off? You are talking about killing children. Is this what you are?

Murder is murder. All victims must be equal in the eyes of the law.

Nov 2, 2009 - 4:14 am 11. Pajamas Media » Honor Killings All Over America: Why are Islamists Suddenly Silent?:

[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]

Nov 2, 2009 - 7:55 am 12. Jay Alexander:

First there is no such word as Islamist; Secondly, there is no such thing as “Honor Killings” in Islam. Are there cultures that believe in Honor Killings, yest there are and are some of these cultures also those who profess Islam, yes they are. But to say Islam advoctes “Honor Killings” is eqaul to saying thay the Bible or Christianity advocates snake handling, becuase there are some who profess Christianity that believe that snak handling is proper and correct.

But in both cases, the misguided actions of a few does not make it a part of the faith of the whole.

Nov 2, 2009 - 8:48 am 13. Lynn:

Thank you again for distinguishing these murders and crimes done in the name of Islam and other murders and crimes. We need to understand how these actions fit very nicely into the teachings of that belief system that emulates it’s founder Mohammad who often used the sword to address his grievances.

As in the past, we are now, and will see more attempts through film, books, and other media to gloss over or erase completely the facts that point to the root of Islam preventing the tree from bearing good fruit. Those who want to blur that fact by pretending it is just another religion that fundamentalists have hijacked is a diversion. If the fundamentals of a faith are corrupt than the whole will be corrupt and cannot bear good fruit, if the fundamentals of a faith are good than it will bear good fruit. That is a truth, inconvenient for some, and that is why Islam will have to pass the test of freedom so that the world can judge it’s fruits.

It has been fourteen centuries since Islam reared it’s head and it is time to take the cover off and discover what is underneath.

Nov 2, 2009 - 8:57 am 14. jade:

“and you know that many communities, not just Islamic ones, find ways to legitimate and conceal acts of sexual violation and violence that occur within families.”

name me one community that legitimizes these kind of things besides muslim communities.

in a lot muslim communities not only is it socially acceptable it is sanctione by law

“What is your ultimate goal here: to create higher penalties for those crimes you deem Islamic honor killings? Why?”

no, the goal is to open peoples eyes to the dangers of islam.

Nov 2, 2009 - 9:06 am 15. jeff:

true story:

High school boy told his parents he was gay. Shocked they went to the Imam; Imam said they had to kill their only son.

Father was ready willing and able to do it; mother stopped him. This in the United States of America.

We decried witch burnings, why cannot mainline Christian churches come out against this? How about Muslims?
The “Religion of Peace” it’s not. More like and angry jackal.

Nov 2, 2009 - 9:47 am 16. Anne:

I do not believe religion can be defended as a reason to kill anyone.
Islam is a danger!! They have no notion of anything but killing, war and having control over someone.

Muhammad was evil, and the evil continues through Muslims. that being said, all I know about Muslims , I read in the paper,internet etc. I never hear anything good! nothing!!!

People use religion as a shield for too many misdeeds. People flee a country because of the laws or such, come here and want to make our country just like the one they left.

Killing for “pride” is demeaning to any religion, ethnic group, country etc.

Nov 2, 2009 - 10:17 am 17. gus3:

“Murder is murder. All victims must be equal in the eyes of the law.”

That is precisely Dr. Chesler’s point. Handling a case with kid gloves because the perp is a Muslim dishonors justice, and further dishonors the victim. Law enforcement and media have both been guilty of this.

Contrast the Arizona case and the arrest of Scott Roeder. After the stories initially broke, how long was it before the religion of each suspect was mentioned? It was three days before I saw any major news wire mention that Almaleki is a Muslim. (Maybe it was sooner, but I missed it.)

Nov 2, 2009 - 10:54 am 18. Tina Trent:

Thank you, Dr. Chesler, for responding. Let me clarify that I am a feminist but certainly not of the type that attempts to minimize offenses committed by ethnic or religious or racial minorities out of misguided sensitivity. I have seen first-hand the harm that does, not only to victims but to feminism itself. Feminist criminal justice action originated in efforts to enforce the law when women are victimized — domestically or sexually — because such crimes were frequently neglected. They still often are — people would serve long sentences for doing to a stranger what they do to a spouse or child with little courtroom consequence.

As I said, the work Dr. Chelser is doing is crucial precisely because the mainstream feminist movement, and the Left, are actively engaged in minimizing and obscuring honor violence. So we are not in disagreement on that. I am not surprised that women’s activists in Buffalo behaved as they did: the first thing you are taught in feminism today is that political correctness has precedence over anything else. By documenting these abuses and resisting specific instances of denial, Dr. Chelser is countering this sometimes-fatal resistance.

However, I am still not clear on the point of enhancement: if Dr. Chesler feels these crimes are constitutionally different from other familial murders, does she also feel the penalties should be different? I cannot agree with privileging any group of victims or prioritizing any group of offenders that way. When we begin to assign different values to different victim groups or motives for crimes, based on identity, we lose our way as much as the mainstream feminist movement has done, and some people necessarily become lesser victims in the eyes of the law.

Jade, anyone who has spent five minutes in a domestic violence shelter or dealing with sexually abused children will tell you that some abusers use their Christianity as an excuse to dominate, harm, and even rape their children or wives, and it is difficult to deny that male dominance, taken to various degrees, is a characteristic of most religions.

Is there a difference between a man who kills his wife because she is disobeying him and he feels this is a violation of the tenets of Islam and a man who kills his wife because she is disobeying him and he feels this is a violation of what it says in the Bible about obeying your husband as he obeys God? There may be, but there are similarities as well. Saying that doesn’t mean I am denying the threat posed by communities of people who harbor extremist views and reject Western mores.

Cultural context is the real issue here, and in our culture, separation of church and state have led to an evolved legal system that recognizes the autonomy and equality of all people. That is a Western value and one of the great pillars of our culture, and Sharia law is deeply contrary to it. Bumper stickers aside, the two can’t coexist, and people who choose to live here must choose our laws.

All I’m saying is that enhancing penalties for honor crimes would subsume our laws to identity politics, and if Dr. Chesler is not in favor of doing this, I am satisfied.

Nov 2, 2009 - 11:57 am 19. Dave M.:

Any violence against women (and men) is a serious issue. However, some Muslims adhere to the Sharia edict to kill apostates and those that bring dishonor upon Islam. Thus, this Sharia induced violence is very different than your typical forms of domestic violence. Typically, domestic violence is perpetrated by the individual rage and actions of one person. This Sharia induced violence is promoted as a matter of keeping Islam pure and restoring the family’s honor. It is an accepted behavior within Islam. Thus, for those of you who think there is no difference between religions and think Sharia is okay for “them”, please rethink your position. Do not let this Camel’s nose into our tent.

Also, for those of you who think it is somehow racist to focus on Muslim honor killings I ask this, how? Islam is not a race it is a belief. And, if you didn’t know, Arabs are Caucasians. So are Turks, Persians and Pakistanis.

Nov 2, 2009 - 2:21 pm 20. Lynn:

Some abusers use their religious belief to commit violence against women and children even when it is clearly not in that faith’s teachings, Christianity for example. On the other hand Islam has no better home with the founder condoning physical and sexual abuse against women.

Anyone who has spent five seconds with an abused mother knows that the abuser often turns to the children.

Often writers speak to their area of expertise and/or interest. This is not a reflection on their lack of attention to other subjects but only speaks to the impossibility of enough minutes in the day to deal with all the injustices in the world.

Opponents recognize this but often will use this argument to try and divert attention away form the issue at hand.

Nov 2, 2009 - 2:22 pm 21. don:

Some times you can’t see what you take for granted, but that’s one of the drawbacks about culture; there’s no sense being Muslim, if you can’t act like a Muslim. And there’s no sense talking about uncomfortable stereotypes when you’re a modern multiculturalist.

Nov 2, 2009 - 2:30 pm 22. dave742:

It has not been that long since “honor killings” were allowed in Christian countries:

“The ‘honor defense’ or ‘unwritten law’ that allowed a court to acquit a defendant entirely when he killed to protect his honor (i.e., his exclusive right to possess the sexuality of his wife and his female relatives) had supporters in the legal community [in the US] as recently as fifty years ago. (see note a) Until the 1960’s and 1970’s, statutes in four states made it justifiable for the husband to kill his wife’s lover. (see note b)
Note a) See Roberts, The Unwritten Law, 10 KY. L.J. 45 (1922) (jury acquittals of defendants in “honor” killings reflect popular sentiment); Comment, Recognition of the Honor Defense Under the Insanity Plea, 43 YALE L.J. 809 (1934) (acquittals of “honor” killings through insanity pleas).
Note b) See Note, Sex Discrimination in the Criminal Law: The Effects of the Equal Rights Amendment, 11 AM. CRIM. L. REV. 469, 500-01 & n.244 (1973). These states were Georgia, New Mexico, Texas, and Utah. In Reed v. State, 123 Tex. Crim. 348, 59 S.W.2d 122 (1933), the court held that a wife who killed a woman committing adultery with her husband was not justified by the Texas statute. See also Mays v. State, 88 Ga. 399, 14 S.E. 560 (1891) (when defendant kills wife’s lover, he would be justified if the killing is to prevent rather than to punish or avenge the adultery); Scroggs v. State, 94 Ga. App. 28, 93 S.E.2d 583 (1956) (wife killing to prevent adultery is justified, but were she to kill in the heat of passion upon discovering commission of husband’s adultery, she would be guilty of manslaughter).”
Reference: Taylor, Laurie J., “Provoked Reason in Men and Women: Heat-of-Passion Manslaughter and Imperfect Self-Defense,” UCLA Law Review, 33 UCLA L. Rev. 1679 (1986)

Honor killing in Brazil was not outlawed until 1991:

“Brazil’s Supreme Court has ruled that a man can no longer kill his wife and win acquittal on the ground of ‘legitimate defense of honor.’”
The New York Times
March 29, 1991, Friday, Late Edition – Final
‘Honor’ Killing of Wives Is Outlawed in Brazil
BYLINE: By JAMES BROOKE, Special to The New York Times
SECTION: Section B; Page 16; Column 3; National Desk
DATELINE: RIO DE JANEIRO, March 26

“honor killings are not like western domestically violent femicides” –Phyllis Chesler

Here is an abstract from an article by someone who might disagree with this:
“”Heat-of-passion crimes” are committed by jealous men against supposedly unfaithful mates, “honor killings” by vengeful relatives against female family members who have disgraced them. These terms are imprecise, and they overlap greatly in usage, but they are similarly, and troublingly, guilt-mitigating. Heat-of-passion crimes and honor killings are universally reported yet vary in incidence culture-to-culture. While typically among the most violent of domestic attacks, they are to different degrees protected in law. Nearly every culture has, or until recently has had, defenses to male culpability based on the supposed effects of provocation. The invention and persistence of these defenses needs explanation. This paper considers a biological perspective, in which heat-of-passion crimes and honor killings are understood as maladaptive by- products of an evolved male sexual aggression subject to intensification by external threats to paternal certainty. Moral and procedural implications of this perspective, as well as its limitations, are discussed.”(1)

I think it is important to note that “there is no single piece of evidence, neither in the Koran nor in the Sunna, that may implicitly or explicitly condone or even acknowledge heat-of-passion crimes or honor killings.”(2) If you are the type who can’t trust something written by a brown person, here is another reference: “honor killings were and are forbidden under Islamic law.” (3)

Tina trent:
“Murder is murder. All victims must be equal in the eyes of the law.”

Exactly. Why is it so important that we focus so much attention on this issue? Jordan is a country that is known for having the highest per capita incidence of honor killings in the world. In Jordan, “25 women each year fall victim to honor killings.”(4) Twenty five people is 25 too many, but it seems to me a problem that kills 25 people in the highest “honor killing” country in the world gets an awful lot of attention from a country that kills hundreds of thousands in it wars to “spread democracy.” The value of 25, however, is an official statistic. Estimates of the actual number are about 60. (5) The reference in note 4 says that honor killings constitute 25 percent of the “official” murders in Jordan, which puts Jordan’s total yearly murder rate at about 100. Jordan’s population is 6,198,677, which puts their total murder rate (per 100,000) at 1.61. (Another source gives a value of 0.9 (6)). Their official “honor killing” rate (per 100,000) is 0.403, and the estimated, actual “honor killing” rate is 0.968.
In the US, the total murder rate is 5.35. (7) The total murder rate in the US, then is over 3 times higher than that of Jordan. Maybe we should focus on our own murders instead of worrying about those in other countries. Jordan has more honor killings than the US, but the US obviously has more of some type of murder than Jordan does, since our murder rate is 3 times higher. Is it more “moral” to murder somebody when ripping off a gas station that it is to murder someone in an “honor killing”?

Honor killings in the US in the name of religion is obviously quite rare (and remember, honor killings in the name of Islam are not actually a part of the religion), but we can discuss similar events. In Islam, an “honor killing” may occur if a women cheats on her husband. Did you know that some men in the US also kill their wives if they cheat on them? In those cases, they do so because the women has insulted their honor instead of the honor of their religion. Little difference for the victim. In the US, 1,700 women are killed every year by “intimate partners.” (8) The rate for this type of violence is 0.559, or about 42% less than the estimated, actual “honor killing” rate in Jordan. I realize that an “honor killing” rate is not directly comparable to “intimate partner” homicide values in the US, but it is the closest possible comparison. It is likely that all “intimate partner” homicides against women in Jordan are captured under the term “honor killings.” Anyway, if Jordan is pure evil because they have honor killings, what is the term for 42% less than “pure evil”? My point is, maybe we should think a little bit about our own societies issues instead of spending so much time demonizing other cultures. So why the focus on honor killing? I think it is obvious. Just part of the campaign to demonize Muslims so US citizens won’t feel too bad when we occupy Muslim countries for Israel, killing tens or hundreds of thousand in the process.

1) The Biological Roots of Heat-of-Passion Crimes and Honor Killings
Author(s): Matthew A. Goldstein
Source: Politics and the Life Sciences, Vol. 21, No. 2 (Sep., 2002), pp. 28-37
2) Khalili, Mohammed I., “ A Comment on Heat-of-Passion Crimes, Honor Killings, and Islam,” Politics and Life Sciences, Vol. 21, No. 2 (Sep., 2002), pp. 38-40
3) Major David J. Western, “Islamic ‘Purse Strings’: The Key to the Amelioration of Women’s Legal Rights,” The Air Force Law Review, 61 A.F.L. Rev. 79 (2008)
4)See Jamal J. Halaby, In Jordan the Price of Honor is Women’s Blood, WOMEN’S E-NEWS (2000),quoted in note 3
5) Husseini, Rana, “Murder in the Name of Honour,” The Jordan Times, October 6-7, 1994
6)The Statesman (India), “Safe Tourist Destination,” April 24, 2009
7)16,272 murders in a population of 304 million:
fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_01.html
7)An estimated 28, 991 females were killed by an intimate partner in the US over a 17 year period. Or about 1,700 per year. The rate (per 100,000) is 0.559.
cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5003a1.htm

Nov 2, 2009 - 2:30 pm 23. MiamaMan:

8. bbloom: [The sad reality is that these people come from a culture that is devoid of love]

and

15. jeff: [The “Religion of Peace” it’s not. More like and angry jackal.]

Islam is a death cult in disguise (and often without disguise). They worship, mostly unknowingly, the dark side of the moon. No wonder “fellow travelers” defend the miasma that Islam is, as they also love decay.

12. Jay Alexander:

[First there is no such word as Islamist]

Yes, there is. If you could not find the word in the Webster, it is because it is rather a new word. Language is always evolving. Google “Islamist” and you will get a plethora of answers. Islamist is one that follows Islam to the t.

You also wrote:

[Secondly, there is no such thing as “Honor Killings” in Islam.]

Really? May be the Chupacacras is doing the honor killings. Good argument for another conspiracy theory. A religion like Islam, and mass movements in general, are measured not only for what they say, but, more importantly, for what they DO. Mein Kampft was innocuous until Hitler implemented it. So, all the arguments like “that is not Islam”, “this is not Islam” is bull, partner.

After 9/11 George W. Bush had the opportunity, like Reagan did with the “evil empire” to denounce Islam for what it is, the coward chose instead to follow the “Islam-is-a-religion-of-peace” crap. Whatever you sow, you reap.

Are you comparing snake handling with honor killings? Very appropriate.

Nov 2, 2009 - 2:36 pm 24. ADF Alliance Alert » Honor Killings All Over America–Why Are the Islamists Suddenly Silent?:

[...] Pajamas Media Chesler Chronicles: “In order to prevent and prosecute honor killings we must first understand what they are; who carries them out and why. As yet, we do not know how many honor killings take place in the West or in developing countries. In addition, shelter workers for battered girls and Women will have to be trained to recognize who might be a potential target of an honor killing. Otherwise, they will just send the girls home to certain death.” [...]

Nov 2, 2009 - 4:12 pm 25. Lynn:

Here are the roots of violence against woman and children in Islam from the mouth of Mohammad who speaks for Allah.

Women’s testimony is worth half a man’s.
Women can be struck for disobedience.
Women are to be used like a field or domestic animal.
Women are the majority occupants of Hell for the crime of ungratefulness.
Women will be rewarded in Paradise by being perpetual virgins for the pleasure of the soldiers of Allah, with little children strung across the sky like pearls.

So the enmity against women and of course children has it’s roots in the words of Mohammad who speaks for Allah.

The enmity against Allah is the gift that was given to women by God who recognized that women will need this gift to recognize evil with an instinct that causes Allah to become very angry and strike women with a vengeance.

If Islamic countries had freedom of the press like the West, the world would be horrified at what hides under the dark covering of Islam. They therefore do not want freedom knocking at their door because often evil can’t stand in the light and the enemy of Islam is freedom.

Nov 2, 2009 - 4:43 pm 26. MiamaMan:

Neo-nazis argue, in a twisted logic by proxy, that nowhere in Mein Kampf Hitler mentioned exterminating Jews physically, which is true. Therefore, they continue, the Shoa (Jews) and the Porrajmos (Gypsies) are inventions. But Hitler DID IT. Mainly for that he will be remembered.

Marx did not propose the Gulag. But Communist Russia DID IT.

So, why worry about what the Koran says? It is not the Koran that beheaded Daniel Pearl on video. Nor the Koran showed up in Mumbai recently in the form of the Devil yelling Allah’u Akbar!

Winston Churchill wrote: ‘The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property either as a child, a wife, or a concubine must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men…”

No, it is not the Koran I fear, but the hateful and genocidal religion-political-system created around it, called Islam.

We, the world, should have paid more attention to the Muslim Holocaust perpetrated on the Indian nation for centuries (few cared). Millions killed, hundreds of temples razed to the ground. Still, Bush and others had the chutzpah to tell India to abandon nuclear weapons. I say to Mother India, arm yourself to the teeth.

So Islam = Muslim = Koran = “El Loco” Mohamed = Sharia Law = Stoning to death women buried alive for adultery in the 21th century = Hanging homosexuals for being gay (Iran) = Executing adolescents (Iran again) = Honor killing girls and women for being “too westernized” or simply for befriending a British soldier (Iraq) = Slavery of women = Female Genital Mutilation = Throwing acid on girls’ eyes to prevent them from attending school (Taliban) = Beating and caning for minor offenses and cutting people’s hands off = Blowing up among innocent civilians, and on, and on, and on.

Nov 2, 2009 - 4:45 pm 27. macko:

If these acts can be considered insane yet traditionally islamic shouldn’t we be able to give the islamic traditionists the boot. let’s see how these cases go, perhaps we can set a precedent for imigtration rejection.

Domestic violence comes in all forms and perhaps there is something in the christian bible that says it is okay but, we know it’s in the quran.

Nov 2, 2009 - 5:07 pm 28. Banned by Huffpo:

Obviously, the answer is to establish a state where Sharia law rules. Let’s give them . . . Chicago.

It would become “The Independent State of Louis Farrakhan.” Only the faithful are allowed entry. Strict border control. First century living conditions.

Sort of like . . . the way things are where Islam rules.

Nov 2, 2009 - 7:46 pm 29. Ranya:

How do you define honor killing? From your analysis in this article, anytime a a male muslim kills a female, it is an honor killing. I am not denying that there are honor killings, but it will not benefit anyone by labeling every muslim murder an honor killing. You cite in your article the beheading of Aasiya by her husband Muzamil. You see muslim man + kill muslim woman + divorce = honor killing. However, that is completley erroneous. Everyone that knew Muzamil will tell you that this man was in no way religious or even close to being a practicing muslim much less a fundamentalist. Muzamil was married and divorced TWICE before without incident. His murder of his wife had nothing to do with his religion but everything to do with domestic violence, especially when the man has been abusing his wife for years. I apologize, but after looking at all these facts, the fact that you will still say that it is an honor killing only says that you are pushing an agenda, not addressing a real problem.
In addition, it is important to note that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam but with culture. Nowhere in the Quran or Islamic teaching does it say that a man can kill his wife or daughter for honor or any other dumb reason like that. Educated people, like you, should be able to differentiate between religion and culture and stop generalizing without having real facts. You are not only hurting yourself, but the poor victims of those crimes that get painted with the brush of an honor killing and not addressing a core problem in their culture– domestic violence.
And one more thing, just because some uneducated, demented idiot across the world is blaming his addiction to murder on religion does not mean that us educated people who know better, or can know better, should believe him and fall right into his trap.

Nov 2, 2009 - 9:04 pm 30. Delia:

“Noor Almaleki has just died in Arizona”

Wow. So sad. This is just wrong on so many levels.

@25. Lynn, you hit it right on the head.

Can insanity be an accepted and ‘learned’ thing?

Cults really do twist people’s minds.

Nov 2, 2009 - 9:21 pm 31. Clausewitz:

“First there is no such word as Islamist; Secondly, there is no such thing as “Honor Killings” in Islam. Are there cultures that believe in Honor Killings, yest there are and are some of these cultures also those who profess Islam, yes they are. But to say Islam advoctes “Honor Killings” is eqaul to saying thay the Bible or Christianity advocates snake handling, becuase there are some who profess Christianity that believe that snak handling is proper and correct.

But in both cases, the misguided actions of a few does not make it a part of the faith of the whole.”

To put a spin on a quote I’ve heard before, “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but lately all the terrorists have been Muslims. Not all Muslims are Honour Killers, but all Honour Killers are Muslim. That includes up here in Canada where we had an Honour killing that set the bar to a new level by the males of the family doing a three for one bargain.

Nov 2, 2009 - 9:45 pm 32. diane:

http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/honor_killing.htm

Nov 2, 2009 - 10:52 pm 33. gus3:

“Noor Almaleki has just died in Arizona”

Execute her murderer. He is clearly a danger to society in general.

Nov 2, 2009 - 11:08 pm 34. alex:

Religion or belief should not enter any of the legal framework. If a crime becomes framed within a belief system, either to explain, justify or condemn, then it can also be used in its defense.

There is no justification for these killings, abuses, and acts. They remind of of parents murdering their children and saying the devil spoke to me, or God commanded me to kill my children. Who cares, if they did it they should be executed and be done with.

The legal system cannot apply justice to a Muslim any different than it can to a Christian, Jew, Hindu or Buddhist. Do the crime, pay the penalty, regardless who they call god.

Finally we provide justification in the murderers eyes when we attack their religion. They see righteousness in their acts as they become the victim of a the angry mob, and provide the last bit of the puzzle; they become a martyr for their faith. We should never provide this to the murderer, they should never have the comfort of feeling they have done right by their faith to murder another human being.

Nov 2, 2009 - 11:25 pm 35. Michelle Malkin » An outbreak of honor killings in America:

[...] Phyllis Chesler wants to know: Where all the Muslim apologists are now? [...]

Nov 3, 2009 - 3:03 am 36. MiamaMan:

29. Ranya:

[In addition, it is important to note that honor killings have nothing to do with Islam but with culture. Nowhere in the Quran or Islamic teaching does it say that a man can kill his wife or daughter for honor or any other dumb reason like that.]

Ranya, who cares what the Quran says in this regard? By stating that women are valued half of men and are property of men, they set the stage for brutality. What is important is what Muslim men do.

Someone said here that if freedom of press would exist in Islamic countries, the world would be appalled at the level of violence: beatings of wives constant, honor killings constant, the savagery of female genital mutilation.

450 people mass wedding in Gaza recently to girls 6-10 years old. See it here…This is part of your Islam:
http://infidelsarecool.com/2009/07/31/gaza-hamas-weds-450-child-brides-in-mass-wedding/
these girls have not attained puberty yet, a sorry sight.

Pedophilia is rampant in Islamic country (Oh, yeah, the Quran does not mention that either, so it does not exist). Homosexuality is also widespread, but in hiding because they hang you for it.

You can’t cover the sun with one finger. Stop trying to confuse us, many of all know already what Islam is, the greatest threat to civilization at the present moment.

Nov 3, 2009 - 5:41 am 37. anon:

So called “honor” killings are not only different, they are alien. They differ from the ordinary homicide in both their structure and orientation.

“Honor” killings are not carried out by some deranged, homicidal lunatic, either within or outside the family unit. They are extra-judicial, carried out following a verdict-usually a death sentence- being handed down by a family council of some sort or description. More often than not, they have the approval, be it tacit or otherwise, from their local communities, including the parasitic imans. In addition, to the violence and murder they have a further aim; to terrorise other family members, particularly the females. The objective is not just to terrorise the females but also to warn them off from integrating into their host societies. They will kill them before they will allow them to live like a Western “hoor” as opposed to the” hoor” of Babylon. In addition, to being deeply misogynist, they are also deeply anti-Western.

There is a further problem here in the West, and that is; with the criminal justice system, whose institutions are either unable or unwilling to deal effectively with such crimes. It might be a start, to classify them as hate crimes, but instead they avail themselves of a defence; that of “culture”, to ensure that justice is done- not so much for the victim, but rather for the perpetrators! The principle of the punishment fitting the crime is being down played.

We have lost our way, alright. We all have, from the very top right down to the bottom. Having for so long, voluntarily prostrated ourselves at the mighty alter of cultural Marxism. In so doing, we have become somewhat complicit in its delusions and entangled in its web of idiocies and deception.

Cracks are beginning to appear here and there, there are still people who not only see the grotesque body of “the naked sheikh” but also have the courage to come out and say so. The air is thick with apathy and menace, much like it was during the 1930s in Nazi Germany!

Nov 3, 2009 - 6:04 am 38. Paul -Indiana:

#12. Jay, there is no equivalence in the concept of snake handling by Christians and Honor Killings by Islamists. We Christians deplor snake handling while Islamists do not oppose Honor Killings. And, yes, Islamists is a real word.

Nov 3, 2009 - 6:22 am 39. Lynn:

We should not be afraid to examine and speak about Islam. We should no longer be fearful of what “they might do”, or “what they might think”, or “we might make them mad”, or “we might give them an excuse to murder”.

No, we should not be afraid any longer to examine the teachings of Islam and the life of Mohammad. For 14 centuries we have lived with Islam pretending that if we don’t say anything, or do anything to offend it, we will be able to get along with it. No, the insanity is spreading and the people caught in it’s chains should no longer have to live under it’s spell just because we don’t want to shed a light on it. Anything that is afraid to have the light shed on it or is afraid of freedom should be looked at, talked about, and unraveled until no one is afraid of it any longer, and it can’t continue it’s march of terror and smothering oppression.

Islam and it’s companion Sharia Law should be squirming and uncomfortable with this scrutiny not the rest of the world. If it is good it will stand if it is bad it will fall. This belief has had thousands of years to produce and nourish the souls of the world and it has utterly failed. It’s time to examine the fruits of this tree.

Shh! No, absolutely not. The victims and their advocates should not be silenced or told they should be careful not to offend the perpetrator and their motivations and their excuses.

Nov 3, 2009 - 7:29 am 40. Arizona: Girl run over by Iraqi father dies – honor killing official « Creeping Sharia:

[...] Chesler: Honor Killings All Over America – Why Are the Islamists Suddenly Silent? Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Said Girls Double Murder An Honor Killing? [...]

Nov 3, 2009 - 7:44 am 41. Now and Then:

This is exactly the same kind of tragedy as a family choosing prayer over clinical medicine resulting in their child’s death. And yet, Orrin Hatch wants you to pay for prayer sessions as an alternative to clinical medicine Sound good? How’s that sit with you conservatives out there?

Nov 3, 2009 - 8:03 am 42. Concerned citizen:

I believe if we stick to what is the LAW in THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, then that is what should matter in this case, since this is (the last time I knew) THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Murder or aggravated assault in any manner, the last I knew, was forbidden by our laws, PERIOD.

Nov 3, 2009 - 8:25 am 43. Darrell:

In my view, it is proper to draw attention to honor killings, but first we should be careful about what we label an honor killing. The two cases referenced in the article are very different.

In the second case, the case in which Rabia Sarwar attempted to murder her husband, her husband had deceived her and taken advantage of her. She was humiliated and perhaps dishonored by his bad acts. But, her case does not strike me as one in which her actions were primarily motivated by her religion. It appears to me that her actions were primarily motivated by her husband’s deceit.

In the case of Noor Almaleki, it was an honest disagreement between daughter and father that prompted the father to kill his daughter. He felt that his daughter’s actions, her Western ways, had brought dishonor on the family. In this case, the murder was clearly motivated by his desire to uphold his religion and thereby save the family honor. Therefore, I would classify this case as an honor killing.

It is important to properly classify cases if we are to understand the phenomenon of honor killings. In my view, honor killings are important because they often occur in the West as the result of Muslims becoming Westernized — as they embrace freedom and Western values and sometimes even leave Islam. The killings occur when Muslim family members try to preserve their religion by violent means — by killing those who stray and intimidating those who are thinking of straying.

We, in the West, have a stake in this process because we want (or should want) Muslims that move to the West to adopt our societal values — reason, freedom, and capitalism. We want people to place rational thought above religion. We want them to place freedom over traditional forms of societal control. We want them to operate as part of our economic system. So, we are rightfully concerned with attempts to prevent people from melding with our society and we feel that it is a particularly egregious type of murder that is designed to prevent people from joining us. In some sense, an honor killing is not only an attack on victim, it is an attack on the rest of us as well — it is an attack on Western Civilization.

Now, one may sympathize with the perpetrator to some extent. He is trying to preserve his culture. But, insofar as we believe, for rational reasons, that our culture is in some ways preferable, we must defend our culture and punish those who seek to subvert it by violent means, even if the violence is only directed at members of the perpetrators’ own families. That does not mean that we need to punish the perpetrators of honor killings more severely than other murderers, but we should not show them any leniency either. To do so would be to undermine the freedoms that we have fought so hard over the centuries to cultivate.

Dave742 had some interesting statistics, but I wonder what the rate of honor killings is among Muslims in Western countries. Muslims make up only a tiny fraction of the U.S. population and any murder will be severely punished in this country, so one would expect the rate of honor killings to be very low in this country — unless there are other reasons for them, such as resistance to cultural assimilation. Unfortunately, it is probably impossible to separate the effect of the fear of punishment from the effects of “corrupting” Western culture on the propensity of Muslims in the West to murder their own.

Nov 3, 2009 - 8:27 am 44. dave742:

It looks like Hindus also commit honor killings. They just don’t call it that when it is reported on, because Hindus are presently not a demonization target:

“An optician who strangled his wife to avoid the public shame of being named as an adulterer yesterday admitted her murder.
Narendra Tailor, a Hindu, had been unfaithful to his wife, Sheila, but could not face going through with a divorce because of the humiliation he would face among his peers.”
http://www.nriinternet.com/NRI_Murdered/UK/Narendra_Tailor/index.htm

I think a somewhat equivalent situation in the West to an honor killing might be when a homophobic parent finds out a daughter or son is gay. They may feel intense shame, and not want the public to find out. In the West, they will sometimes kill for this reason, but they don’t call it an honor killing:

“A father reportedly outraged that his son was gay and working as a prostitute has been arrested on charges of hiring a hitman. Giuseppe Mandanici, 33, was shot three times in the stomach and arm as he solicited clients Wednesday on a sidewalk in Mazzara Sant’Andrea near the Sicilian city of Messina. “He was ashamed, he couldn’t accept his son’s sexual inclination and refused to allow anyone in the family to talk about it,” said a report in the newspaper La Repubblica. “Despite efforts by his wife and another son, the arguments got worse and worse.”"
The Associated Press
August 19, 1993, Thursday, AM cycle
Police: Father Hires Gunman to Kill Gay Son
SECTION: International News

Nov 3, 2009 - 8:29 am 45. merci:

This is what this country has to look forward too, more muslims killings family members because they have become too westernized and have dishonored their family. If they do not like the USA leave and leave America and for which it stands alone. We do not want honor killings or sharia law in this country like it has been incorporated into European countries.

These people are gutless murderers plain and simple and their is no honor in murder.

Nov 3, 2009 - 10:31 am 46. Anonymous:

My daughter had Mr. Naseem as a teacher for her high school math class. She could not believe what happened to him as he was an excellent teacher (she hates math – did exceptionally well in his class because he actually taught well) and kind to his students.

As for making her dress “provocatively”, he probably wanted her to look like a normal human being rather than a sack of bones.

That she couldn’t stand not being abused probably says more about her than about him.

Nov 3, 2009 - 11:32 am 47. MiamaMan:

44. dave742:

[It looks like Hindus also commit honor killings. They just don’t call it that when it is reported on, because Hindus are presently not a demonization target:]

1) “Demonization” target? Perhaps because Hindus come to the US and the West, thrive, adapt, and contribute. No Hindu temple here in the US spews hate against America, Christianity, etc. They don’t blow up buildings, nor commit terrorists acts.

2) “An optician who strangled his wife to avoid the public shame of being named as an adulterer yesterday admitted her murder.
Narendra Tailor, a Hindu, had been unfaithful to his wife, Sheila, but could not face going through with a divorce because of the humiliation he would face among his peers.”

Where is the religious component here? This example has nothing to do with “honor killing” in the Muslim context.

Nov 3, 2009 - 2:24 pm 48. Tel-Chai Nation:

Almaleki arrested…

The man who tried to honor murder his daughter in Arizona with a Jeep Grand Cherokee has been arrested:…

Nov 3, 2009 - 3:23 pm 49. Honor Killings All Over America: Why are Islamists Suddenly Silent? — Phyllis Chesler :: Responsible for Equality And Liberty (R.E.A.L.):

[...] Honor Killings All Over America: Why are Islamists Suddenly Silent? — Phyllis Chesler [...]

Nov 3, 2009 - 4:04 pm 50. dave742:

MiamaMan:
“Where is the religious component here?” – MiamaMan

That is my point. What is termed “honor killing” for Muslims has its counterpart in all cultures. For example, see the abstract I printed above, or, better yet, get the article and read it. See also, my comment and post about homosexuality. We only give the phenomenon a label when Muslims do it, for demonization purposes.

“They don’t blow up buildings, nor commit terrorists acts.” – MiamaMan

Oh, really? First of all, do you know what group has committed the largest number of suicide bombings” The LTTE. Some other examples:

hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=4576

guardian.co.uk/world/1999/jan/15/suzannegoldenberg

washingtontimes.com/news/2008/nov/21/probe-reveals-hindu-terror-cell/

sananews.com.pk/english/2008/10/12/hindu-extremists-set-ablaze-six-muslims-in-andhra-pradesh/

news.oneindia.in/2008/06/17/scrutinise-hindu-extremist-organisations-demands-ncp-1213713305.html

hinduonnet.com/2000/09/06/stories/0106000b.htm

house.gov/apps/list/press/az02_franks/FranksonOrissaIndia.html

telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/1419061/Hindu-extremists-attack-US-missionary.html

ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=13493

“No Hindu temple here in the US spews hate against America, Christianity, etc. “-MiamaMan

Currently, the US is not occupying India. For that reason, you are right. However, if Israel someday orders the US to occupy India, the Hindus will preach hate against America, because people don’t like being occupied by other nations. Then you will call Hindus terrorists. Also, the Hindu terrorists in the articles above are funded by Hindus in the US, but I guess as long as the terrorism is not directed against us, it’s OK:

“Much of the funding for Hindu extremism comes from the United States.”
washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/08/uncharitable-giving/

Nov 3, 2009 - 6:06 pm 51. gus3:

dave742:

An article from 16 years ago is the best you could do?

Nov 3, 2009 - 6:28 pm 52. “An Iraqi man ran over his daughter for not being Iraqi enough” — Winds Of Jihad By SheikYerMami:

[...] ran over his daughter for not being Iraqi enough”by sheikyermami on November 2, 2009Update: Honor Killings in America:(Pajamas Media)A new spate of attempted honor killings will no doubt be blamed on mental illness, [...]

Nov 3, 2009 - 7:25 pm 53. MiamaMan:

50. dave742:

Your statement: [However, if Israel someday orders the US to occupy India]

Very interesting, thank you.

Nov 3, 2009 - 8:58 pm 54. Gary Rosen:

#53 MiamaMan:

Dave742 doesn’t wear tinfoil. He wears plutonium foil.

Nov 4, 2009 - 12:39 am 55. Lynn:

If it is true that by their words we will know them, than it would be prudent that we study the words of Mohammad who speaks for Allah and is the founder of Islam.

Women are of less value than men.
Women’s testimony is worth half of men’s.
Women are to be used like a field or domestic animal.
Women can be struck for disobedience.
Women are the majority occupiers of Hell for being ungrateful.
Women in paradise will be perpetual virgins for the pleasure of men.
Little children will be strung across the heavens like pearls to serve men.

Don’t be diverted by people who do not want Islam and it’s founder Mohammad, who speaks for Allah, be examined and questioned. There is a reason for that, and it is because they fear it will not stand under scrutiny.

In the United States there are many people of faith who live taking their souls and the souls of others into consideration. We have an absolute right and duty to discover Islamic teachings and Sharia Law just like all the other faiths of the citizens that live here. People who believe in Islam should not be given special treatment because they do not like the questioning or do not like the scrutiny. History should not be written with an eraser.

Nov 4, 2009 - 6:36 am 56. dave742:

MiamaMan:
“Very interesting, thank you.”

The US has puppet leaders in other countries, but they are puppets as well.

Notice how most of the articles about Hindus I referenced use the term “hindu extremists”? If we decided to occupy India, they would become “Hindu terrorists,” and they would be on the news every day.
If Israel was set up in Argentina instead of Palestine, you never would have heard of “Muslim terrorists,” and instead we would be talking about “Argentinian terrorists” (in that case, we couldn’t blame it on their religion, since they are Catholic. We would have to find a different reason to send our military there – we would either say they are Commies, or the War on Drugs would be moved south. Or they would simply be called anti-Semites. There’s always a way.)

Nov 4, 2009 - 8:04 am 57. Filthy Screw:

Keep talking about ‘honor’ killings. You are keeping the horror in the open and only by applying sunshine can we kill these putrid fungi.

Nov 4, 2009 - 9:03 am 58. An Honor Killing In Arizona « Around The Sphere:

[...] yet when this exact thing is happening within the Muslim community the reaction seems muted. In the United States today there [...]

Nov 4, 2009 - 9:39 am 59. MiamaMan:

56. dave742:

1) Your statement: [The US has puppet leaders in other countries, but they are puppets as well.]

Thanks David, I see, very interesting.

2) Your statement: [Notice how most of the articles about Hindus I referenced use the term “Hindu extremists”? If we decided to occupy India, they would become “Hindu terrorists,” and they would be on the news every day.]

I see…could you expand a little…who are the Hindu Extremists in India? Thanks in advance.

Nov 4, 2009 - 9:39 am 60. dave742:

MiamaMan:
“I see…could you expand a little…who are the Hindu Extremists in India?”
I gave links to nearly a dozen articles above. Remember?

Nov 4, 2009 - 9:52 am 61. dave742:

A UK paper reports that “studies have found parents are to blame in more than 85 per cent of child killings.”
Daily Record, May 5, 2008, Monday, WHY PARENTS TURN TO MURDER;LENNOXTOWN TRAGEDY..

If we don’t have honor killings, then why are parents in the West killing their children? Here are some examples:

“A MOTHER who killed her two sons claimed in a letter written on the day the boys were suffocated and strangled that it was her greatest act of love…”She hatched a plan to kill her sons as an attempt to punish her husband for what she saw as a less than satisfactory marriage,” [her lawyer] said.”
The Age (Melbourne, Australia), May 15, 2008, Woman killed sons to punish husband, court told, BYLINE: Peter Gregory, Chief Court Reporter

“A MAN murdered his five-year-old son to avoid paying maintenance and destroy the boy’s mother, a court heard yesterday. He left notes about his former de facto wife saying he did it “just to spite the bitch so she can’t have him”, the Supreme Court in Melbourne was told.”
The Australian, March 1, 2000, Father killed son ‘to spite’ de facto, BYLINE: KATHERINE TOWERS

“A FATHER dumped by his wife strangled their 12-year-old son and told her: “Well, if I can’t have you, you can’t have Tony”, a court heard yesterday.”
The Mirror, October 12, 2001, Friday, DUMPED DAD ‘KILLED SON OUT OF REVENGE’, BYLINE: Brian Roberts

“Fear of losing the “man of her dreams” pushed a 27-year-old Kanata woman into denying her pregnancy and then, in an apparent state of “confusion,” suffocating her newborn son and dumping his body into a garbage can, an Ottawa court heard yesterday.”
National Post (f/k/a The Financial Post) (Canada), April 22, 2009 Wednesday, Mother killed son over fear of losing man, court told, BYLINE: Chris Cobb

I guess these are the reasons why parents in “civilized” countries kill their children. But let’s not bother over silly questions regarding why this happens in our culture. Let’s just focus on “honor killings” happening in other countries.

Nov 4, 2009 - 12:23 pm 62. Poor Citizen:

I get fed up with Arabs coming to live in europe and america or anywhere they are not indigenous to the local culture and expect ..that culture.. to bend to their homeland culture. There culture is strange and these honor killings and honor beatings and all these forms of “so called” honor are not acceptable, especially when it comes to murder and violence. If they cannot drop their acts of religious/cultural idiocies like these they can either go back to their home countries..or expect to face a lengthy prison term when they break the law. It is that simple.

Nov 4, 2009 - 12:28 pm 63. MiamaMan:

Dave742 Forget the articles, give me your opinion

Nov 4, 2009 - 1:00 pm 64. dave742:

I think it is clear what my opinion is. Of course honor killings are bad. The psychological and biological reasons behind honor killings, however, are present in all cultures to some degree. It is true that Mulim cultures feel shame and disgrace more than we do in the US. To the extent that it leads to honor killings, this is bad. But the complete lack of shame and disgrace in some Western countries is not all that great either. A pregnant 16 year old will walk into high school in the West without the least bit of shame. Probably not good either.

The feelings of a parent who does not want their child to become Westernized are also easily understood. Let’s say that China had been occupying the US for the past century or so, and was basically screwing up our country for their benefit. Some Americans would not like it, and would probably become “terrorists” (at least in the eyes of China). However, some Americans that had children might actually move to China to give their children a good education, or to get a better job, etc. (In that case, China would likely have a much better economy and better schools). Some might do this for their children, but at the same time hate the idea of living in China because they’re occupying the US and because they don’t like Chinese culture. In that case, if their children decided to adopt Chinese culture, they might be outraged. Basically, I am always able to empathize with what people feel. Some people take these universal feelings and react to them in insane ways, but this happens always and everywhere.

Honor killings are bad, but for a country that is among the top in the world in murder rates, focusing on what kind of murders another culture commits is silly. We kill our children out of revenge, spite, etc. They kill some out of shame. Which is more “moral”? Probably neither. Let’s focus on our own problems. How would you feel if the media in Muslim cultures was filled with stories about how parents in the West kill their children to spite their partners? And every time this happened, it was on the front page of the papers in Muslim countries. Wouldn’t you feel like saying “F— you! Deal with your own crap!” Maybe we should do the same.

We focus on these issues in other cultures not because we give a damn, but because we want to demonize that culture so we can bomb it or occupy it without having the masses care. They will think “Oh, they’re just primitive brown people anyway.” You can demonized any culture, however. During WWII, the Japanese were primitive, barbaric apes. Everything you think about Muslims now was how we thought about the Japanese then. Now, the Japanese are OK. If I was in control of the media, I could demonize the Swedes and have you thinking they are barbarians in about 1 year. You would be begging to bomb them. Try and get past the propaganda, and your feelings of superiority over everyone else.

Nov 4, 2009 - 1:59 pm 65. arthur:

a more pertinent question might be, why are all Christians silent about the creationist intelligent design gay-hating abortion doctor killing extremist Christians?

Nov 4, 2009 - 2:18 pm 66. deguello:

Honor killings:Why are Islamists suddenly silent? Ms Chesler, that’s easy! They’re reloading!

Nov 4, 2009 - 3:26 pm 67. Steynian 395 « Free Canuckistan!:

[...] HONOUR KILLINGS ALL OVER AMERICA: Why are Islamists Suddenly Silent? by Phyllis Chesler …. [...]

Nov 4, 2009 - 3:29 pm 68. MiamaMan:

64. dave742:

1) Although you make some good points, your logic is twisted and can’t be defended. For example:

a) Independently of all faults of our society here, you imply that by “Deal with your own crap!” we should be silent about honor killings. So, when you write “let’s focus on our own problems” you imply that honor killings, an emerging and nasty phenomenon here should be disregarded. Wrong!

b) “We focus on these issues in other cultures not because we give a damn, but because we want to demonize that culture so we can bomb it or occupy it without having the masses care.” You seem to be an adept of conspiracy theories, like when you wrote Israel orders the US around. Likewise, this is an exaggeration. What country the US occupied in Europe after saving them from Nazism? You seem to hate this country, you probably do not know better.

c) “A pregnant 16 year old will walk into high school in the West without the least bit of shame. Probably not good either.” Why not good? The US and the West are based upon the principle of freedom, individual freedom, so that 16 year old deals with her pregnancy without being bossed around or killed for it. In many a Muslim country this pregnant 16 years old would not survive a week.

Besides, honor killings are based on religious beliefs, mainly Islam. The West left that behind a while back. Besides, we resent the intolerance and hate exhibited by many in the Muslim community, and know they want to bring here the hateful and evil Sharia Law and their customs, without tolerating ours in their lands. Don’t be surprised then that people are outraged with honor killings. It is the right outrage.

d) “I could demonize the Swedes and have you thinking they are barbarians in about 1 year”
You could never do that to me, or to any other intelligent person. Your inference borders lack of respect, which reflect on yourself.

e) “Try and get past the propaganda, and your feelings of superiority over everyone else.”
You are the one talking with a false sense of superiority, and arrogance, trying to cover the sun with one finger. Your propaganda is in your own head.

Finally, you never answered my question…who are the Hindu fundamentalists in India that you referred to? Name them please. Enlighten me on this issue. Don’t quote me some article BS from 15 years ago. And who help them from the US? Answer.

Nov 4, 2009 - 3:33 pm 69. Mark in Texas:

Dave742

In reference to your story about the father in Sicily who paid hit men to kill his homosexual prostitute son. Sicily was invaded and occupied by Muslims for several centuries. Modern day Sicilians still retain some of the social conventions from that time.

Nov 4, 2009 - 3:55 pm 70. dave742:

“an emerging and nasty phenomenon here should be disregarded.”

I didn’t say it should be disregarded. Notice how I use the word “focus.” The focus that people on the right give this issue is completely disproportionate to the extent of the problem. Tell me how many honor killings have occurred in the US in the last year. If you do this, please also define honor killing.

“You seem to be an adept of conspiracy theories, like when you wrote Israel orders the US around.”

You deny that puppet states exist? To believe that puppet states exist is a conspiracy theory? I think you are naïve.

“Why not good? The US and the West are based upon the principle of freedom, individual freedom, so that 16 year old deals with her pregnancy without being bossed around or killed for it.”

You asked me my opinion. I don’t think 16 year olds should be having babies, whether they are “free’ to do so or not. I think there should be societal pressure not to do so. If you disagree, fine.

“Besides, honor killings are based on religious beliefs, mainly Islam.”

Tell me what in Islam teaches honor killings. Tell me. Tell me.

“You could never do that to me, or to any other intelligent person.”

I should not have made it personal, but I think I could get majority support in this country without a problem. Maybe it would take a couple years.

“Finally, you never answered my question…who are the Hindu fundamentalists in India that you referred to? Name them please.”
There are dozens of groups. Abhinav Bharat, Sri Ram Sena, Shiv Sena, National Defense Army, etc.

Nov 4, 2009 - 6:02 pm 71. dave742:

Mark in Texas:
Actually, I think every bad thing that has happened since Mohammed was born can be connected to Muslims. It’s like playing that Kevin Bacon game.

Nov 4, 2009 - 8:15 pm 72. Mark in Texas:

dave742

While that is obviously an exaggeration, I think that Islam is one of the worst calamities that the human race has ever experienced, dwarfing the Black Death and Communism for its malignant effects.

As Manuel Palaiologos said, the good in Islam is also in Christianity but the new things that Mohammed introduced are evil and inhuman.

However, not every bad thing that has happened since Mohammed was born can be connected to Muslims.

Nov 4, 2009 - 9:39 pm 73. gordo:

thanks for asking, dave.
“retaliation is obligatory against anyone who kills a human being purely intentionally and without right.” However, “not subject to retaliation” is “a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring’s offspring.” (’Umdat al-Salik o1.1-2).

Nov 4, 2009 - 10:22 pm 74. Mark in Texas:

dave742

Honor killings are bad, but for a country that is among the top in the world in murder rates, focusing on what kind of murders another culture commits is silly.

While the homicide rate in the US is higher than most (but not all) European countries, that rate varies widely among the various groups who make up the US population. The murder rate is also mostly lower among ethnic groups in the US than in their countries of origin. For example, the murder rate among Americans of Japanese ancestry is lower than the murder rate in Japan. Even though Mexico has a murder rate that is several times the aggregate murder rate in the United States, the murder rate among people of Mexican ancestry in the US is lower than the murder rate in Mexico, despite the fact that the Mexican immigrant population in the US skews heavily towards young men who are the group most likely to commit murder in any population. And, lest we forget people of African ancestry, the group who commit more than half of the murders in the US kill at rates that are lower than the homicide rate in any African country with credible statistics.

When you look at the rich, multicultural quilt that is the United States, you have to look beyond the outdated idea of the melting pot of homogeneous citizens and examine the individual flavors of the components who make up our diverse yet tasty national stew.

Nov 5, 2009 - 4:23 am 75. Capitola:

from Winston Churchill (The River War, 1899):

“How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity.

The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property – either as a child, a wife, or a concubine – must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

110 years ago this was penned by W. Churchill, from direct observance and experience. From MY direct experience of living in Kuwait in the early ’80’s, nothing has changed in regards to “…every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property-”.

Nov 5, 2009 - 4:24 am 76. Paul -Indiana:

Honor Killings All Over America–Why Are the Islamists Suddenly Silent?
======
They aren’t suddenly silent. Muslims have never spoken out against Honor Killings. Is it compliance or cowardice?

Nov 5, 2009 - 6:21 am 77. Lynn:

Also of note with the vile enmity of Mohammad and Allah against women is the vile hatred against the Jewish People. Mohammad taught that
Allah and Mohammad thinks women are worth less than men.
Allah and Mohammad thinks that women’s testimony is worth half of men’s.
Allah and Mohammad think that women should be used like a domestic animal or field.
Allah and Mohammad say that women will inhabit Heaven as perpetual virgins always servicing men.
Allah and Mohammad say that little children will be strung across heaven like pearls to service men.
Allah and Mohammad say that women can be struck for disobedience.
Allah and Mohammad say that the population of Hell is made of of mostly women.

So you see, it is easy to see why women would be mistreated in Islam because Allah and Mohammad have a deep unfailing hatred toward women.

Also connected to this is a deep unfailing hatred toward the Jewish People who Allah and Mohammad said that the followers should fight until the end of days and even the rock and trees will cry out that there is a Jew hiding behind them and to come and kill the Jew.

It is easy to see if one looks and reads that Islam’s idea of Honor is not what the Jude/Christian think is Honor. It is not surprising that there is a conflict, and it is not surprising that there are those who would like to divert our attention from these truths.

Attempting to divert our attention away from these truths is a warning that we should pay closer attention.

Nov 5, 2009 - 6:58 am 78. A.J - NOLA:

Islam is an evil ‘religion’ and Muhammad was evil. Evil destroyed the World Trade Center, The Pentagon and crashed Flight 93. Countless lives were lost, not just physically but mentality and the evil continues. Is there evil in the White House – America’s house?

Nov 5, 2009 - 7:16 am 79. dave742:

gordo:

MiamaMan said that “honor killings are based on religious beliefs, mainly Islam.” As far as written sources, the religious beliefs of Islam are based on the Quran and Sunna. There is nothing in the Quran or Sunna that justifies honor killings. You bring up some thousand year old book, which is NOT a source of the religion of Islam. (Besides, the Hidaya is not exactly promoting killing offspring). Right-wing extremists are fond of bringing up quotes from thousand year old books, but these books were never a considered a source of the law. Using these books as a codified law book was the same mistake made by the West when they occupied Muslim lands, but it was not how Islamic law had operated:

“Coming to understand that the Shari‘a was authoritative for Islamic legal scholars, many British administrators glossed over its internal contradictions and finely distinguished levels of moral approbation. Instead, they set about applying it as a set of homogeneous legal rules…Looking for a unified Muhammadan law that could be adapted to the company court system, administrators made the much-celebrated mistake of treating certain classical Islamic texts as binding legal texts. To apply the laws of the Quran with respect to Mohamedans was a project that mistook the Quran for a code of law. The Quran, and even more specifically legal texts such as Al-Hidaya, had never been directly applied as sources of legal precept. Their legal relevance had always derived from a properly authoritative qadi whose moral probity and knowledge of local arrangements could translate precept into practice. Qadis in the Mughal period had left much to what Bayly calls the ’sense of the neighborhood,’ so that justice tended to be highly personalized and context-specific. Even the most sophisticated text-bound approach was subject to grave error, simply because texts were applied in ignorance of social circumstances.”
Anderson, Michael R., “Legal Scholarship and the Politics of Islam in British India,” in Khare, R.S., ed., Perspectives on Islamic Law, Justice, and Society (Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield, 1999), p. 71-72, internal quote from Bayly, C.A., Rulers, Townsmen and Bazaars: North Indian Society in the Age of British Expansion, 1770-1870 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983) , p. 353

Maybe instead of using a few translated thousand year old books, you should do some research on how Islamic law actually operated in real life:

“Together, these three translations formed the textual basis of Anglo-Muhammadan law. Their errors and inadequacies have been partially recorded in court cases and commentaries, but sustained research on the ideological biases of their rendering remains to be pursued. Even a basic text on the usul-al-fiqh, or roots of jurisprudence, that would be fundamental to any detailed understanding of Islamic law, did not appear until 1911. (A. Rahim: The Principles of Muhammadan Jurisprudence) It is not surprising that those few texts that were translated came to be treated as authoritative codes rather than as discrete statements within a larger spectrum of scholarly debate…The reliance on texts over customary practices was a strategy that served to contain the contumacious complexities of indigenous mores. Colonial legal understandings were not strictly wrong, but they were highly stylized forms of representation, more often concerned with a limited kind of textual accuracy than a genuine appreciation of the norms by which people lived. In simplifying indigenous legal arrangements to a form that could be administered by colonial courts, Anglo-Muhammadan scholarship sometimes reduced living norms to immutable concepts of purely divine provenance.”
Anderson, Michael R., “Legal Scholarship and the Politics of Islam in British India,” in Khare, R.S., ed., Perspectives on Islamic Law, Justice, and Society (Lanham: Rowman & Littlefield, 1999), p. 74 and 80

There are countless people who wrote countless texts on Islamic law, and there are many, many different opinions on each and every question. If your purpose is to demonize Islam, then it is easy to find some reference somewhere that will support things that had nothing to do with actual practice. When we look at actual practice in Islamic law, the story is quite different than your thousand year old books. For example for unlawful sex:

“While the Ottoman qanun paid lip service to the penalties prescribed by the shari‟a, which might be imposed in any given case, it also instituted a broad range of alternative penalties, primarily fines. Sultan Sulayman‘s criminal code, for example, listed a series of graduated fines incurred by perpetrators of zina, to be calibrated by the status of the perpetrator, whether a virgin or not, and by his or her assets. In the case on consensual zina, only a recurrent offender, such as a habitual prostitute, incurred stiffer penalties of flogging, ridiculing in public, or banishment. The law specified that a prostitute could have her face blackened or smeared with dirt and be led through the streets sitting backwards on a donkey, holding its tail instead of its reins…In brief, the Ottoman criminal code effectively eliminated execution as a penalty for zina, prescribed only monetary fines for consensual sexual intercourse, and received a range of non-lethal corporal punishments for those who were violent or habitual offenders…Same-sex intercourse between males was to be punished like zina, with the same system of graduated fines.”
Tucker, Judith E., Women, Family, and Gender in Islamic Law (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2008), p. 196

Maybe you should try reading some scholarly works on Islamic law instead of extremist blogs. Once again, nothing in the Quran or Sunna justifies honor killings. The Quran and Sunna are the sources of Islamic law. Morever, what really happened is more important than your thousand year old books.

Nov 5, 2009 - 8:34 am 80. dave742:

Mark in Texas:

“The murder rate is also mostly lower among ethnic groups in the US than in their countries of origin.”

Show me where muder rate statistics are kept by ethnicity of the perpetrator.

Nov 5, 2009 - 9:24 am 81. Paul -Indiana:

#80. Start here.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm

Nov 5, 2009 - 10:54 am 82. dave742:

Paul:
Thanks, You gave me the correct search terms to use.

“The murder rate is also mostly lower among ethnic groups in the US than in their countries of origin.”

Searching the literature, countless studies have been done that show that crime-generating social conditions are what account for these differences. Most of the cultures you bring up are poor. Transporting them to the US changes their social conditions – it gives them more money. So if you give people a house and money, they commit less crimes. This is not related to race or ethnicity, it is related to the conditions that produce crime. If you give black and Hispanic people money, and make white people poor, white people will commit more crimes. So what. If you give a poor country money, they will commit less crimes. Read studies like the following:

Sampson, Robert J. and William Julius Wilson. 1995. “Race, Crime, and Urban Inequality.” Pp. 37-54 in Crime and Inequality, edited by J. Hagan and R. D. Peterson. Stanford, CA: Stanford University Press.

Nov 5, 2009 - 11:22 am 83. Lynn:

This verse from the quran opens the door to honor killings.

Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Quran 3:4

Mohammad and Allah proclaim that men excel over women and that it is permissible to beat them for disobedience. It leaves the door open for harsher punishment by stating that if they obey do not seek a way against them. This is a back wards way of saying that it is permissible to seek other ways against them if they do not obey after beatings. Hidden in this message is also the charge that women are to guard the unseen. Since men are over women they can determine that women are not guarding the unseen properly and therefore have brought dishoner on them.

The Koran also differentiates the treatment of Kafirs (women slaves) from wives by separating what one does with the left hand (good) from the right hand (evil)allowing the good left hand to not know what the right had is doing. Quran 70:22-30 This opens the door to rape of non-believers.

It is not the laws of Islam or the laws of Mohammad or Allah that protect women from rape or physical violence since an Islamic man is worth more and testimony is worth more, and can go before Islam and claim himself over the female whether Islamic or a non-believer. They own the testimony and their word is above.

These are just a few sources of Islamic Law.

Nov 5, 2009 - 11:34 am 84. dave742:

Lynn:
To say that allowing to hit your wife opens a door to killing people is bordering on lunacy.

Regarding 4:34 (not 3:4): the Qur’an is over a thousand years old, and its view on the subject of hitting wives was certainly not out of line with the era, and was probably progressive. And although the Quran allowed htting wives, Shafi’i mentions that the ideal is not to hit the wife:

“Among the early commentators who treat the the Prophet’s view on this issue, perhaps the most nuanced, and certainly the most sensible, was al- Shafi’i (d. 204/820). The well-known jurist and theologian was aware of the contradictory reports transmitted in the traditions and tried to reconcile the differences between them by suggesting a chronological sequence. First, the Prophet forbade men to beat women; second, he received the revelation of Qur’an 4:34; and third, in accordance with this revelation, he allowed men, to beat their wives. However, al- Shafi’i continues, the Prophet’s admoni- tion ‘the best of you will not beat them’ qualifies his own permissive statement, because it implies that every man has the possibility of choosing not to beat. In concluding his reflection on the subject, al-Shafi’i says that according to the Prophet’s words, beating is permitted, but it is not a religious duty (fard), adding finally: ‘we choose what the Messenger of God chose himself, and we prefer that the husband does not beat his wife when she goes too far against him in her words and in similar things.’”
Disciplining Wives: A Historical Reading of Qur’an 4:34 Author(s): Manuela Marin Studia Islamica, No. 97 (2003), pp. 5-40

That this issue was even discussed well over a thousand years ago shows how progressive Islam is. This issue wasn’t discussed in the US until the 1950s. Using this verse to say that the Quran allows honor killings is proof that the Quran does not permit honor killings.

Nov 5, 2009 - 12:39 pm 85. Lynn:

Giving a man a choice to beat or not to beat a woman is only a choice for a man.

There are also different punishments for lewdness which would further explain the responsibility of the women to guard the unseen, and the excuse of the man to separate what he does with his left hand (good) and what he does with his right hand (evil).

If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them (starvation), or Allah ordain for them some (other) way. Quran 4:15

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. Quran 4:16

This further illustrates the responsibility of women to guard the honor while the man is under no such restraint.

It is true that the words and laws can change if necessary such as when Mohammad coveted a relatives wife he changed the law against adultery to make an exception for himself. It was written that all parties were happy with this arrangement yet having it both ways should make one question the motives of someone who speaks one way then later speaks another after their desire changes, especially if they are in a position of power and authority.

Nov 5, 2009 - 2:25 pm 86. MiamaMan:

70. dave742:

1) [There is nothing in the Quran or Sunna that justifies honor killings.]

Nor in Mein Kampf there is anything about exterminating Jews physically, but Hitler DID IT. And they DO the honor killings. So, who cares what the Quran or Sunna say? The problem is not only the Quran, but the hateful religion named Islam that has evolved around it.

2) “You seem to be an adept of conspiracy theories, like when you wrote Israel orders the US around.”
You deny that puppet states exist?]

No, I don’t deny it, but that fact has nothing to do with conspiracy theories of the type you ascribe to, like that Israel orders the US to do this or that. I bet you also entertain the idea that Bush was behind 9/11.

3) [Tell me what in Islam teaches honor killings. Tell me. Tell me.]

In the Mosques my dear. Many an honor killing is sanctioned in the Mosque and by the Imam. This is a fact.

4) [Once again, nothing in the Quran or Sunna justifies honor killings.]

Tra la la la lalala, lalala, lalala Allah.

5) [I should not have made it personal, but I think I could get majority support in this country without a problem. Maybe it would take a couple years.]

What an arrogance, you must be a Magician. Hey, people more strong and evil than you could not bend my mind, not even under torture, not every one would bend under your Goebbelian approach.

6) [Hindu fundamentalists in India that you referred to? Name them please.”
There are dozens of groups. Abhinav Bharat, Sri Ram Sena, Shiv Sena, National Defense Army, etc.]

Listen Jenizary, top listening to MSNBC and reading the New York times. I am a member of the Vishva Hindu Parishad, and support Hindutva.

Nov 5, 2009 - 2:34 pm 87. dave742:

MiamaMan:
[The problem is not only the Quran, but the hateful religion named Islam that has evolved around it.]

This problem in particular is not due to the Quran at all. If it had anything to do with the Muslim religion, then why did other cultures permit honor killings, including Brazil until 1991, and the US before that? (I have adopted your method of using brackets for quotes of earlier posts. It’s cool.)

[You deny that puppet states exist? –dave742
No, I don’t deny it, but that fact has nothing to do with conspiracy theories of the type you ascribe to, like that Israel orders the US to do this or that.-MiamaMan]

When I say that Israel orders the US to do this or that, I am saying that the US is a puppet state of Israel. So you say that puppet states do exist, and are a reality. But if I say that the US is a puppet state of Israel, it is a conspiracy theory. This is illogical.

[Many an honor killing is sanctioned in the Mosque and by the Imam. This is a fact.]

No. This is a baseless accusation until you support it with some facts. Saying “this is a fact” is not a proof. Even if you were to use caps.

[not every one would bend under your Goebbelian approach.]

No. That is why I said “a majority.”

Listen Jenizary, top listening to MSNBC and reading the New York times. I am a member of the Vishva Hindu Parishad, and support Hindutva.

I do not know what Jenizary means.
Can I listen to law journals? Or are they banned as well. Here are a couple excerpts from law journals regarding your organization. People here might be interested in who their fellow readers are. One makes your organization sound little different from the conventional view of Muslims regarding women’s rights, and the other accuses your organization with genocide. For those who have not read a law journal article, literally every sentence of the following is backed up by a reference. Get the article if you’re interested in seeing the refs. This post is already a little long for me to print them.

So, MiamaMan, are the following statements all lies?

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

“There are several Hindu fundamentalist movements, with the main movements located in India and focused on making India a Hindu state. The most important is Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a combined religious and cultural organization whose political manifestation is the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) (The Indian People’s Party) and whose affiliate Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP) (World Hindu Society) is responsible for promoting religious and cultural aspects of Hindu fundamentalism.

THE MODERATOR HAS SHORTENED THIS OVERLY LONG POST AT THIS POINT. SORRY.

Nov 5, 2009 - 5:31 pm 88. dave742:

MiamaMan:

I guess I have to find a way to shorten my post. The first article I linked to is transcribed in a book here:

books.google.com/books?id=8o8a2SQwccIC&pg=PA166&dq=%22there+are+several+hindu+fundamentalist%22#v=onepage&q=%22there%20are%20several%20hindu%20fundamentalist%22&f=false

The section runs through page 169.

Here is the second article excerpt:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/22181693/Post

So what is your opinion of these articles?

Nov 5, 2009 - 7:46 pm 89. dave742:

Miamaman:

Here is the quote from first article, through to page 169:

books.google.com/books?id=1TmUgmeGziUC&pg=PA123&lpg=PA123&dq=%22main+movements+located+in+India+and+focused+%22&source=bl&ots=cBpFKMu10b&sig=u7577oSuLBbhyEYk_qawQExqKtQ&hl=en&ei=-5PzSrz4KYvWlQfnwr34Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22main%20movements%20located%20in%20India%20and%20focused%20%22&f=false

Here is the second quote from the second article:

scribd.com/doc/22181693/Post

Are these articles accurate?

Nov 5, 2009 - 8:13 pm 90. MiamaMan:

88. dave742:

“There are several Hindu fundamentalist movements, with the main movements located in India and focused on making India a Hindu state. The most important is Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), a combined religious and cultural organization whose political manifestation is the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) (The Indian People’s Party) and whose affiliate Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP) (World Hindu Society) is responsible for promoting religious and cultural aspects of Hindu fundamentalism.”

No, they are not accurate. Yes, now you are closer to the mark, you got that from Wikipedia, as a member of the VHP and supporter of Hindutva, these groups cannot, definitely, be called fundamentalist nor extremists…They promote Hinduism, nothing wrong with that, unfortunately very weakly, for in many parts of India, believe it or not, Hindus are discriminated against. It is the Marxists in India, in New Delhi university primarily, that want to label them fundamentalists and even extremists when they are not, because they are Hindu-baiters, what is call in India a Brown Sahib.

Nov 6, 2009 - 5:33 am 91. Lynn:

Following is another open door inviting violence against women. They are the main occupiers of Hell so it would be reasonable to think of them as evil, leading men to evil.

Women who are keepers of the unseen are surely in the eyes of Mohammad and Allah lacking from the first.

O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell. A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof. Sahih Muslim 1:142

Nov 6, 2009 - 6:48 am 92. dave742:

Miamiaman:
[you got that from Wikipedia,]

No, I did not get that from Wikipedia. I quoted two excerpts from law journals. One was from the Columbia Journal of Transnational Law, which was then copied into the book I references. The other was from Case Western Reserve Journal of International Law, which I gave a link to. Both of these law journals are extrmemely well researched and well referenced, as are nearly all law articles, and they paint a picture very different than what you say, to say the least. But you say they are “not accurate.” OK.

Lynn:
If you are talking to me, please don’t bother.

Nov 6, 2009 - 10:57 am 93. dave742:

MIamaMan:

From the above book:

“Thus, the primary religious role for Hindu women as promoted by the RSS family of organizations is to be a devoted wife and mother. However, Hinduism views women as possessed of a dangerous sexuality that constantly threatens to destroy their virtue, and that they cannot themselves control. Consequently, women must be subject to external controls to maintain their virtue. The girl or young woman is first controlled by her father or male guardian. If, despite this control, she loses, or is perceived to have lost, her virtue, she disgraces her family and her male relatives are therefore “obliged to execute her.”"

Do you really have a problem with honor killings?

Nov 7, 2009 - 7:57 am 94. MiamaMan:

93. dave742:

Ha, ha, very interesting. Thanks for the quote.

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:25 am 95. dave742:

MiamaMan;
I am readin a little on your movement. Your group is going to be very useful to me in the future. Thanks. People here might be interested in this (I myself am atheist, so I quote it not in relation to myself):

“In recent years Christians have also become the targets of rape, murder, church bombings, Bible burning, and severe beatings. The killing of priests, raping of nuns, and torching of prayer halls and churches are means to terrorize, denigrate, and threaten people of different religio-cultural traditions that Christians represent in India. This violence, incited by the BJP/RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal/SS, was documented in the cover story of Communalism Combat of July 2000: “Physical attacks and intimidation of minorities have resurfaced with a vengeance. Incidents in the past three months alone-between April and June 2000-have crossed the three dozen mark. Christian religious persons running educational institutions or health centres have been singled out for murder or other forms of mistreatment.” In another article, T. K. Oommen purports that “there has been unprecedented violence against [the Christian community in India] in the last one year.” He elabo- rates further: “It is not true that there was no anti-Christian violence in the past. But they [such instances] were few and far between. In the last 50 years there have been only 50 instances of physical violence against Christians. But in the last one year there have been 110 cases of atrocities against them.”"

Hindutva, Religious and Ethnocultural Minorities, and Indian-Christian Theology
Author(s): Sathianathan Clarke
Source: The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 95, No. 2 (Apr., 2002), pp. 197-226

Is this inaccurate?

Nov 7, 2009 - 9:45 am 96. MiamaMan:

95. dave742:

Thanks! Wait till the Christian go into your neighborhood and try to convert you, then let me know.

Nov 7, 2009 - 12:22 pm 97. anon:

To argue that Muslim honor killings have nothing to do with Islam is stupendous, evasive and deceptive.

Adultery is a very serious matter in Islam. The koran is very clear with with to controlling women and their sexuality. Zina [fornication] is classified in the hadiths as being equivalent to social suicide. In countries where Sharia law operates the state authorities carry out the punishment instead of the family members, namely lashing and stoning and this includes their rape victims. To give but one example, the punishment is meted out by the religious police in Saudi Arabia, those same men, who in 2002, pushed 15 schools girls back into an inferno to be burned alive when they attempted to flee for their lives un burqued. Due to the influence of Islam on the matter, no government in the ME, however secular, had the testicles to impose criminal sanctions with a view to eradicating the cretinous practice, although they had 1450 years to do so.

In any event, it is mainly a Muslim on Muslim crime. Whether the murder of young women within the family is cultural or legal{Islamic] is irrelevant until there is an unequivocal, a cross the board consensus from the Islamic religious authorities that so called honor killings are contrary to the texts and tenets of Islam and outlawed accordingly with criminal sanctions. Until then, it is safe to say that it is a time honoured Islamic tradition codified with time by convention.

If is a cultural/tribal practice, it is a culture that that spread, with Islam anywhere it went, from the deserts of 7th century Arabia to Afghanistan, to Persia to Turkey and now into the West where it is carried out predominantly in the Muslim communities.

Instead of blaming everyone and anyone for the misfortune, and attempting to down play or evade the shame using the ludicrous “nothing to do with Islam” and tu quo que arguments, it is high time to confront the issue head on. Either way, it just cannot be allowed to become part of Western cultural values.

Nov 8, 2009 - 6:58 am 98. Stella Polaris:

I wonder if those feminist groups insisting that this wasn’t an honor killing are only following orders from higher up–from supporters of our new Dear Leader. Many of his supporters are community activists and we are now learning how supportive of radical muslims they are. There is active And very successful recruiting of prisoners to convert to Islam. Their families probably have frequent contact with these social workers and community activists, who see any criticism of Islam as a racial or religious attack.

Nov 8, 2009 - 7:50 am 99. dave742:

Miamaman:
[Wait till the Christian go into your neighborhood and try to convert you]

I looked up whatever I could find on this issue, and could find no evidence that these forced conversions ever really happened, and most consider them baseless accusations.

I read this:

“On October 8, Gujarat’s Director-General of Police, C.P. Singh, confirmed in an interview to Teesta Setalvad, co-editor of Communalism Combat (October 1998): “One thing was clear in the pattern of incidents. It was the activists of the Vishwa Hindu Parishad and Bajrang Dal who were taking the law into their own hands, which posed a serious danger to peace in Gujarat. Many of the attacks on the minorities were after these organisations had whipped up local passions of conversions (by Christian missionaries) and allegedly forced inter-religious marriages… our investigations revealed that in most cases these were entirely baseless allegations.”"

http://www.thehindu.com/fline/fl1526/15261230.htm

If “most” were baseless accusations, maybe some were not. If you had any info regarding proof, I would like to know.

There are also reports of forced reconversions:

“…since the past few months, and more extensively in the first fortnight of January. tribals (of Goghli and surrounding villages) were being bundled into jeeps and taken to the ‘garamkund’ (hot springs) at Unai for a ’shuddhikaran’ (purificatory bath). Then they were driven to Swami Aseemanand’s ashram, to state that they have ‘reconverted’ to Hinduism.”
-Francis Gonzalves’ report in Communalism Combat, V, 47, October 1998. At a meeting in Delhi in February, the well known sociologist Ghanashyam Shah gave a very similar account of forcible ‘reconversion’. Quoted in “Conversions and Politics of Hindu Right”
Author(s): Sumit Sarkar
Source: Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 34, No. 26 (Jun. 26 – Jul. 2, 1999), pp. 1691-1700

Are forced “reconversions” happening?

Here are some of the reactions to the alleged forced conversions:

“On September 23, 1998 there was the gang-rape of four nuns at Jhabua, MadhyaPradesh. B L Sharma, former BJP MP and currently central secretary of the VHP, claimed that this was a result of the “anger of patriotic youth against anti-national forces…the direct result of conversion of Hindus to Christianity by the Christian priests…And then in the last week of January 1999 came the burning alive at Monoharpur, Orissa, once again amidst slogans of ‘Jai Shri Ram’, of the Australian missionary doctor Staines and two of his children.”"
(from above article)

Even if forced conversions happened, is gang raping nuns and burning alive missionaries along with his children an appropriate response?

Nov 8, 2009 - 2:22 pm 100. Ft. Hood Tragedy: Blame Bush…He Started The War On Terror:

[...] policy, for example, does not enter the minds of those engaging in an epidemic of religious-based honor killings in the [...]

Nov 10, 2009 - 3:31 am 101. GODBLESSTHEUSA:

Deport ALL MUSLIMS. Let they kill each other on their own soil!

Nov 14, 2009 - 9:42 am 102. JonTX:

It never fails to amaze me.. why have we become a nation of apologists? These immigrants want to come to the US, and ironically they HATE us. They also feel they only need to obey the rules of their mother country.

As for muslims- how do you respect a religion where their great prophet- mohammed, married a 5y/o girl and consumated the marriage at 9y/o?????

They should be punished to the fullest extent of the law- period.

Last, I had a personal experience with a “devout muslim”, self-proclaimed of course.
I was shopping in a local Wal Mart down here in South Central Texas, and noticed a muslim father have words with his daughter who was about 10 y/o. He was berating her and carrying on, and when she said one thing to him, he slapped her so hard across the face he knocked her down. Well, other people were just standing by watching and not helping, so when he moved to strike her again I stepped between them. Well, he about went ape-shit! He was now shrieking at me, drooling, and had that look of insane hate on his face. He attempted to push/grab me when I returned the favor for his daughter and slapped him across his face, knocking him down. About this time, a policeman showed-up. To make a long story short as they say: he lied about hitting his daughter (even with the huge red welt on her face), said I attacked him without reason, and was basically saying all sorts of off the wall stuff. Luckily, there were plenty of witnesses and I did not physically attack him but acted in self-defense. He was crying like a baby when they took him to jail for assauting a minor… I was worried about the fate of the family when he gets out, but at that moment I felt sure if I didn’t act he was going to seriously injure that little girl. One nice thing, she smiled at me as she and her mother left the store.

I just cannot respect a religion or culture that condones that sort of activity.

Nov 14, 2009 - 4:30 pm 103. Rachel:

Ignorant. Practice some cultural relativism people. Don’t argue subjects you aren’t well informed about.

Nov 15, 2009 - 9:50 pm

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