82 Comments

1. George Jochnowitz:

We Jews have been freed from the curse of blind faith (a force that makes smart people stupid and good people bad) by a passage in the Talmud, Baba Metzia 58a, in which the rabbis vote against the opinions of a voice from heaven on the grounds that the interpretations of the Law [Sanhedrin 4:1] are made by majority decision. The account in Baba Metzia goes on to say that the Prophet Elijah was visitng the earth and was asked what God’s view was. Elijah answered that God laughed and said, “My children have defeated me. My children have defeated me.”
Nofrat Frenkel should cite this passage as part of her defense.
Jacob was renamed Israel (wrestled God) because he wrestled with God. Arguing–using our brains–is one of the secrets of Jewish success.

Nov 18, 2009 - 12:32 pm 2. BettyBlue:

Phyllis, there are bigger fish to fry at the moment: the upcoming KSM trial, the Ft. Hood shooter, Iran getting the bomb, and, dare I say it? The real Taliban, the ones we’re fighting in Afghanistan, who are threatening to make war against us.

Whatever problems Orthodox Jewish women face, I think Islam, and the worlwide Jihad, is more pressing at the moment.

Nov 18, 2009 - 1:13 pm 3. David W. Lincoln:

What is wrong with this: One God, One creator, One standard?

As long as division exists between what is a Jew, or Jewess, various standards will be used,
and frankly only one deserves respect, for all the rest look like power plays.

Nov 18, 2009 - 2:18 pm 4. Norman Simms:

Dear Phyllis

Again you take the brave stand and defend the righteous in Israel against the forces of obscurantism, superstition, and blind idolatry.

Norman

Nov 18, 2009 - 2:26 pm 5. Evil Pundit:

Looks like a bit of feminist grandstanding to me.

What would happen if men demanded the right to attend women’s groups?

Nov 18, 2009 - 2:58 pm 6. Crystal Rose:

The following article was published on an Orthodox Jewish web site called Matzav.com on November 9, 2009.

http://matzav.com/chacham-ovadia-condemn-the-foolish-women-with-talleisim

It is clear that when such a prominent and revered rabbi such as Ovadiah Yosef refers to members of Women of the Wall as “fools with taleisim”, this type of agitprop creates the kind of tendentious climate in which a woman who committed no crime can be arrested.

He goes on to say that, “These women are part of a group that comes to Kosel wearing tallis and tefillin. They do not do this l’sheim Shomayim. They do it because they want so-called equality.”

The question is: who defines equality and why is this concept so abhorrent?

Nov 18, 2009 - 4:11 pm 7. Larsen E. Whipsnade:

Yawn. This is the same problem that was driving Jesus and his Jewish followers bonkers over 2000 years ago. This is news? Don’t these women have any knowledge of what Jesus was saying? Just asking . . .

Nov 18, 2009 - 7:36 pm 8. Madashell:

Frankly, I decided long ago that all religions find ways to harm women, degrade them, separate them or torture them. Some religions are more harmful to women than others but, given the legal ability and opportunity, they would all gladly catch up.

Religious doctrine is generally created by men for men.

No thanks.

Nov 18, 2009 - 7:38 pm 9. OpinionEditorial — Blog — The Jewish Taliban in Jerusalem:

[...] Continue Reading [...]

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:09 am 10. HellenoChristian:

Oh Lord! It looks very much like those caricatures of BC, (the man) with a cudgel in his hand (against the woman), catching her with it, then carrying her by her hair to his cave [Now I should talk about Plato's "Myth of the Cave" - which is part of ancient Greek/Hellenic Philosophy/Psychology - but I'm sure you already know everything about it/this], and all of that being considered “regular” (normal and normalized).

Thank you for this introspection of Jew [I realize now: Jew-el has the same root?!] society, which makes me realize that I really know too little about it. I dare to say that the situation (there) is very worrying. Anyway: in Phyllis one year ago’s article it is said “we just have another 20 years (to fight/struggle)” – I would say: “women have another 20 centuries (or 20 thousand of years) to do so”, before achieving a human Being’s status ….

But as a woman of an African (yes) village (about Clitoridectomy, Infibulation and other sadistic practices on children/girls/women) said: JUST WOMEN CAN DO SOMETHING TO IMPROVE THEIR (SOCIAL) CONDITION.

Therefore: let’s fight and struggle for ourselves, our Souls (like the spiritual Movement of WOW seems to be doing), our Minds (Education, Observation, Reasoning, Analizing – Learning and free Thinking), and our Bodies (we are human Being, neither Animals nor Objects – which someone, whoever, possesses or is meant to possess -).

Is our problem that we never (really) assume ourselves? About Religion(s): why do we follow a Belief whose (true or fake) Prophet is a man/male – and if we do so, do we ever check how he treated females (every female, the feminine principle, which – on this Earth – it is matterially represented NOT SPLITTED FROM feminine body)? We’re used to follow men (and ironically to seek men “following” us): what a nonsense game is that? Willing to give a end to it, and therefore willing to act coherently to our principles (and idea/-als) ,

WHICH IS THE VERY ESSENTIAL AND COR-AL (MEANT: AT THE CORE) STEP HAVE WE TO MAKE?

I mean: we are the mother(s). We gave (and still give) birth to male and males: how comes we then (accept to) become a sort of subhuman Being, a unimportant object, a incapable being on this Earth (and what about Heaven, for those who believe there is one)?

EDUCATION STARTS BEFORE CONCEPTION, AND LASTS DURING THE WHOLE PREGNANCY AND IT GOES ON (FOR THE REST OF ONE’S LIFE): and maybe women’s struggle for their Rights (and Dignity) has to start from the very Beginning (see above), or it is devoted to fail?

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:36 am 11. Pajamas Media » The Jewish Taliban in Jerusalem:

[...] Read the entire piece here. [...]

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:29 am 12. Steven:

A comparison to the Taliban is over the top.

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:36 am 13. AQUA:

I don’t care for the Orthodox fundamentalism, but until they rape the women in jail, stone them, hang them, or cut off their heads, please don’t call them “Taliban.”

By this standard, you could call the Amish or any other fundamentalist group “Taliban.” It isn’t right.

You shouldn’t do that — it’s also similar to when civilians inadvertently are hurt or die in a military action and Jews are called “Nazis.”

It dilutes the meaning of “Taliban” and exaggerates the practices of the Orthodox.

Nov 19, 2009 - 4:32 am 14. david:

i just can’t believe the ignorance of some of the posts here,and the arrogance too! You can call it a “prayer shawl” but we Jews call it TALITH which used to be an everyday MAN’S garment. If one likes cross-dressing, he can do it at home, or go to a Reform Synagogue for that matter.

And by the way, should men who struggle for their Rights wear suspenders and a bra?

Nov 19, 2009 - 4:35 am 15. HellenoChristian:

14. David

Do you have to wear a bra for your Rights?

Tell me, where do you have less Rights than a woman does, to state what you did (you think some Comments to be arrogant? Well, yours – sorry – was almost stupid!).

Do you know, since the article mentioned Talibans – which are Islamic people -: your kind of comparism between men’s condition and women’s condition (both in secular and religious Societies?) is the same as the comparism between Islamic people’s condition and others’ condition (both in Islamic/Islamized and Western Countries).

My opinion: the former have really less to complain about their condition compared to the latter!

Anyway: should you wear an headscarf, an hijab or a burka “for your Rights” I won’t mind at all! Let’s do it, with my full blessings. And please, don’t forget to perform all the “purification’s” practices up to now reserved to women only. Let’s share this priviledge, oh my poor discriminated man! You are so right (eventhough you – appearently – have no – enough – Rights)!

Nov 19, 2009 - 5:57 am 16. Ken Besig Israel:

First and foremost Phyllis you are entirely mistaken when you claim that the Western, or Wailing Wall, or the Kotel, is Judaism’s holiest site. Judaism’s holiest site is the Temple Mount which rests above the Kotel and which is largely forbidden to Jews. The Kotel has no sanctity whatsoever to anyone, and has gained religious importance for the Jewish People simply because it is all that remains of the Jewish Temple which the Romans destroyed and it is the closest point to which observant Jews may approach the Temple Mount.
Regarding the use of a Tallit, a Jewish religious prayer shawl, generally used by Jewish men while praying, by women, has no serious religious meaning. Indeed, most Jewish women are annoyed by the suggestion that they should mimic men in the ritual observance.
Your use of the word Taliban I find distasteful and unworthy of you both as a commentator on Jewish affairs and as a Jewish woman. There are indeed radical ultra Orthodox Jewish religionists in Israel and Jerusalem, but there behavior can hardly be compared to the savage, murderous, and misogynist Taliban. Besides Phyllis, as Jews we must be gentle in our speech, courteous, and moderate especially as regards other Jews.
As regards the Women of the Wall, I know some of these women and am familiar with some of the others. They are largely irreligious and deeply contemptuous of Judaism and the Jewish religion. Most of them are ultra Left secular Jews who loathe Israel and Judaism, and are supportive of the Palestinians and the Palestinian war to destroy Israel.
Phyllis, the little show the Women of the Wall put on once a month is nothing but a provocation and an attempt to fool non Israeli Jews like you into believing that Jewish women in Israel lack rights or privileges, or God forbid suffer religous discrimination. All these women are doing is cynically using the Kotel and the Jewish religion to present Israel, Judaism, and yes even Zionism in the worst light possible.
More importantly the Kotel is a Jewish religious site for all the Jewish People and thus there are standards of behavior and dress for both Jews and Gentiles who wish to pray or celebrate there.
Even the Vatican in Rome demands a certain level of dress and behavior from visitors who come there, and given that Jews do pray at the Kotel, it is only fitting that certain standards of dress be enforced.
The Women of the Wall are not trying to expand women’s rights in Israel, they are just trying to delegitimize our State, our religion, and ultimately our Jewish People. Just look into them a little more deeply Phyllis, and you will find some of the most despicable anti Israel fanatics living and some of the worst haters of Judaism in the world.

Nov 19, 2009 - 6:37 am 17. David P:

“those women who have been denied religious power and freedom find their only power in restricting other women; those women who have internalized sexist values perennially enforce the dress and behavior codes for other women”

This opinion & observation derives from a purely western experience. Israel isn’t the USA, there exists inequalities that appear to go beyond logical comprehension of your average westerner reared in a secular society. Accusing religious women of subverting the actions of WOW because they are themselves “denied religious power & freedom” is a preposterous analysis rooted in ethnocentrism.

Nov 19, 2009 - 7:13 am 18. Terry, Eilat - Israel:

#16 Ken Besig. Great comment, thanks. I’m a completely secular Jew in Israel & generally ignore religious controversies. Until a recent article in the JPost, I had never even heard of this women’s group.
I don’t understand even vaguely why any woman would want to wear a talith, a men’s garment, except to create a problem where there is no problem, to draw attention to themselves. While I can’t say that I know any of these women personally, I’ll take your word for it that they are not really religious, more looney-leftist provocateurs of which, unfortunately, there is no shortage.
Of greater concern to me, however, is the exaggerated & highly inappropriate comparison of any Jews to the Taliban. This is outright slander. While I do not care much for the more extreme Haredim, at most, they are annoying & somewhat eccentric, hardly to be compared to the murderous & savage Taliban.

Nov 19, 2009 - 7:29 am 19. Lauren:

Phyllis, thank you this post. This is (in my opinion) Judaism’s and Israel’s dirty little secret – the fact that the police are so fearful of the vigilante-ism of the Haredim, that they selectively enforce laws according to whatever will keep them from destroying Jerusalem and burning garbage cans.
There are sectors of ultra-Orthodoxy in Jerusalem who have so distorted Judaism that they have created a society totally incompatible with one that is democratic, economically independent and guarantees individual liberties. And far from being interested only in mitzvot, they have become an increasingly powerful fifth column with a strong-enough grip on the government and they are not loyal to the state, refuse to pull their own weight economically or serve in the IDF and engage in vigilate justice – often violently enforcing their version of halacha. They feel that they are entitled to rule Jerusalem, and unfortunately the non-extremist religious and secular populations are less and less willing to engage their brothers and sisters in this war and are simply abandoning our capital.
The one thing about Israel that has broken my heart is that it is becoming increasingly clear that Jerusalem has once again been lost.

Nov 19, 2009 - 7:37 am 20. Edgar:

The ultra-Orthodox will bring Israel down and ultimately destory it if the Muslims don’t manage to do it first. If the Haredim become the face of Israeli society, an outcome that current demographic trends make plausible, Israel will quite simply not be worth defending. This goes for the religious right of Israel in general: their vision for Isreal’s future has nothing whatever to do with the secular, rationalist, cosmopolitan Zionism that actually founded the country.

Nov 19, 2009 - 7:44 am 21. Dave M.:

Ms. Chesler, What does the Torah say about this issue? Does it speak to it at all? If it does, shouldn’t what the Torah teaches be followed? Which do you find more authoritative the Torah or feminism? Is the Torah God’s law for Israel or is it just a bunch of stories?

I do know that the Torah states that a man shall not dress like a woman nor a woman dress like a man. Does this inform your opinion at all? Can you be an obediant, observant Jew and promote actions contrary to the Torah? Does the Torah matter anymore?

Nov 19, 2009 - 8:03 am 22. Andrew Berman:

Phyllis,

I really don’t care how Jewish women choose to pray and do believe that they have an absolute right to wear a Tallit while doing so. And I am disgusted by how many of the Haredim react to the Women of the Wall.

BUT

Robinson’s arch is as much a part of the Western Wall as the other two sections. I’ve happily prayed there with my wife and daughters. So there are three sections — a men’s only section for orthodox-style prayer, a women’s only section for orthodox-style prayer, and a third section for men and women who want to pray in ways that are not in accordance with historical norms relating to prayer, i.e, women wearing tallit, men and women praying together, women rabbis, etc..

Is the point of the Women of the Wall to be able to pray at the Wall in the manner of their choosing? If so, they have that already. So why do the Women of the Wall insist on trying to set a standard that will *prevent* other women from praying in a congregation that follows their beliefs?

Nov 19, 2009 - 8:05 am 23. ETAB:

Thanks for your article, Phyllis.

I do think that the Taliban comparison is weak, for the Taliban regime is less of a religious and cultural set of beliefs, based on history and tradition than it is a tribal militancy against other peoples..by confining one set of people into a repressive mode.

However both are ‘tribal’ modes of life and the orthodox lifestyle is most certainly based on the old tribal ifestyle of thousands of years ago. Tribalism is always very strict on gender differentiation. The reform Judaic movement moved out of tribalism and into a ‘civic’ modern mode of gender relations.

The question then becomes, does Israel want its Judaism to follow the orthodox, the conservative, the reform. It seems to follow almost all of these branches! For example, in Reform, if you convert to another religion (or atheism) then you are defined as no longer a Jew; while the other branches insist that you cannot ‘drop’ this Jewish identity. The Israeli supreme court accepts the Reform view.

It’s a difficult and challenging path.

Nov 19, 2009 - 8:19 am 24. Tony DeCarlo:

I find it particularly disturbing that the ultra-orthodox who comprise such a small percent of the Jewish population in Israel and elsewhere wield so much authority. As someone of mixed parentage with a non-Jewish sounding name I am occasionally put in the position of either being rude or apologizing for not being a “pure” Jew. The question of who is a Jew has become an issue in Britain, in the US and even in Israel. Likewise, the question of whether women have the same rights as men in Judaism has become controversial because some do not want to accept women as fervent in their faith or even as rabbis. As a people, a very small minority in the world, all Jews should accept anyone who identifies themselves as a Jew, either secular, religious or haredim. In the face of almost unified Islamic hatred this is especially true in Israel. It is essential that all Israelis accept one another and remain vigilant and united as a people and a nation.

Nov 19, 2009 - 8:56 am 25. Tina Trent:

I sit in church and watch the men speak about God’s message of inclusion as they exclude women, and I pity them. I am not referring to the small circle of ritual, but to the institution in its entirety, and especially vocations. They are separating themselves from the very words they preach. And you can layer scrim upon scrim of justifications, but the politics shine through anyway.

And this is a shame. It has hobbled the Catholic Church, and by what Dr. Chesler writes here, Orthodox Judiasm, from posing a real alternative to radical Islam’s systematic social and legal degradation of half the human race. Set aside the rituals that have been decreed to belong only in male hands, and you still have faiths that are political and organizational entities, and they are broken by the logical contradiction and ethical inequity in their treatment of women, and especially women religious. They are weak where they could be strong.

When the Pope stands in a sea of men and challenges Islamic gender oppression, he cannot succeed: his message becomes victory for their cause. And that is his choice alone. There is nothing in our faith that decrees that the Vatican must exclude women from all earthly authority within the faith, yet this is what this group of men has chosen to do. It is a deep and destructive, and self-indulgent and suspect moral failure. It has cost the Church a great deal, sustaining this absolute and ultimately subjective privilege, in all sorts of ways, and it will cost us all dearly in the future because of the key role the Church could be playing in countering radical Islam in both aging Christian Europe and the developing world. I’d had great hope for Benedict’s leadership on this issue. He’s chosen a disappointing path.

Nov 19, 2009 - 9:02 am 26. Truth vs Lies:

This is a disgusting article drawing conteptible correlations between Jews who are more stringent in Jewish law or “Halacha” (so called “ultra Orthodox”) and the taliban. As if these Jews carry Ak47s and kill people. What a disgusting comparison and a cheap clownish way to attract attention to this event.

A little history is way overdue here.
The western wall (Kotel) has been a prayer site for Judaism for literally 2,000 years since the distruction of the second temple. For centuries the prayers and customs at the site have followed what today we call “Orthodox” (Orthodox being a 19th century term). Women only prayer quorums (minyanim) and women wearing prayer shawls (tallism) or phylacteries (teffilin) have never been a part of Jewish law (halacha) and never been practiced at the kotel. It has ALWAYS been an Orthodox prayer site.

Along come radical feminists seeking to provoke conflict in the womens only prayer side of the Kotel to make some sort of statement and impose thier interpretation on one of the most holy sites in Judaism.

Imagine if ultra orthodox had burst into a reform temple and set up a Mechitza (pray barrier between genders) and pray according to Orthodox rite. Can you imagine the worldwide outrage???? Why is it OK for radical feminists to do the other way and burst into one of the most holy sites in Judaism and impose thier practices on Jews at an Orthodox site.

I ask the readers to imagine if radical feminsts had gone into the Vatican and done a mass led by women priests??
Or if radical feminists had gone to Mecca not wearing hijab?

For the record, there is a portion of the the Kotel where these practices are permitted. Its called Robinsons arch and the Reform, Conservatives and others can pray thier as they want. No Orthodox try and impose thier practices at that portion of the kotel.

Do you see the hypocrisy here????

Nov 19, 2009 - 9:16 am 27. calatrava:

Phyllis: Just one comment. Comparing what you described with the Taliban is going a little bit too far.

Nov 19, 2009 - 9:30 am 28. HellenoChristian:

17. David accuses Phyllis Chesler of Ethnocentrism? Is that a jocke? I wonder: is Freud the only Jew “touched” by Psychology? (In this case: never heard about “Projection”? Appearently not, and David’s words look so uncounscious. I wonder: does Judaism block Self-consciousness?).

By other Comments I see that the way some Jew think is exactely the same as many Islamic people do. “Did you read the Torah” – “the Torah says” – “Do you follow your Way or the Torah’s” (let’s put Koran instead of Torah, and you’ll have an Islamic person, no more a Jewish one). Even the Comment about being kind “among ourselves” sounds very Islamic. Not to mention the veiled threat “eat sugar and talk sweetly” alike: rather than criticize (more or less politely/diplomatically/political correctly/…) you have to worry about using an “aesthetical” language (and sound nice rather than truthful).

I see no way out for women in Judaism, exactely as I see none for women in Islam: I wonder if men know that in their mother’s womb they got nurished through her blood, and through her body-cells; and that they mother’s own milk got produced from her blood. Women give so much to men (and women), from the very beginning of one’s life and far before (not to mention after): why are they still considered a half (or a nothingness)?

Because it’s written in the Torah or in the Koran? Oh Lord! What a very comfortable excuse, and a Respectless one.

Someone feels outraged? If so, do you know, the difference between you and me is the following: you see yourself and me through the spectacles of our ethnic background or religious belonging; I see myself and you as human Beings (“neither angels nor beasts”).

And you hate me for our difference while I love you for our equality: though, Love doesn’t forbid criticism. Regards.

Nov 19, 2009 - 9:31 am 29. achit:

“Women in India prefer women-only railway compartments.”
What the hell!!! this article has nothing to do with India.

Nov 19, 2009 - 9:31 am 30. Lynn:

Well obviously YHWH made a mistake and did not create a fitting partner for mankind and they are praying at the wall for him to send something better.

To the back of the bus ladies! When the bus stops at it final destination, the River of Life, it will be better to not have to walk down the aisle with those hate filled eyes staring at your back. The last stop, and then you can savor every moment as you walk the straight and narrow path nothing to block your way.

Better they should throw those chairs and sound those curses at the Wall and the One they are really angry at, rather then lend their voices in prayer with the women. After all when G_d said that womankind are a fitting partner with mankind, it seems that many of the men disagree. When YHWH spoke of the curse of dominion over women, isn’t it the men’s sacred duty to oblige? With such relish they accomplish their tasks! With such fury they carry out the edict! Those stories of great love between the men of woman who founded Israel are only highlighted because they are so rare.

I think that might make the keepers of the Mount happy. Mission accomplished and I’m sure they love the show as they look down. It seems that the Muslims are superior in every way, and even carry out their enmity for women to newer higher heights.

Wasn’t it Mohammad who spoke with wonder at the women’s faith even taking into consideration their Great Shame. Wear your shame like a cloak ladies, cover up, so even the eyes of YHWH do not have to look down upon the Great Shame he created. Women the fatal error that brought man down. Women the fatal error that it is promised her seed will save the world. So many reasons to throw chairs and curse her.

Nov 19, 2009 - 9:52 am 31. Aliza Berger-Cooper:

To correct a misconception:

Most of the WOW regulars (who show up every month) are Orthodox, as am I.
If anyone wants to “check my tzitzit,” as it were, and quiz me on specific aspects of my observance, you are welcome to.

Some of us are Conservative, some Reform, and some “traditional” (masorti) – an Israeli term. We all pray together, a cross-denominational phenomenon hard to find in Jewish prayer settings. The ultra-Orthodox can learn something from us about moving beyond their comfort zone to accommodate others.

I am not Reform, and I am not left-wing. I simply want to pray as an observant Jew does, and that includes wearing a tallit and reading from the Torah. Many modern (as opposed to ultra-) Orthodox rabbis accept that women may do this. If you read carefully the statements made by the ultra-Orthodox rabbi appointed to the Kotel, you will see that he also admits that this is permissible. Thus there is no reason it should not be allowed at the Kotel.

Nov 19, 2009 - 10:40 am 32. naftali:

I’ve been studying Torah for nearly twenty years, sometimes formally, mostly informally, and I’ll say it’s the most complex set of scriptures (readings) I’ve ever come across. And I’ve studied the heavyweight German philosophers, Kant, Hegel, that tradition.

I believe that it’s nearly impossible to take any one quote from the entire body of Tanach and say with certainty–I understand this enough to use it as a supporting quote for my thesis, any thesis.

This is one reason Jews are commanded to study Torah every day of our lives. If you do this, and do it well, the understanding changes frequently. You can never finish. The most you can do is say that you have a stronger understanding than the day before.

Our halachah is based on the need for uniform action–that is, a civilization needs to work together, to agree on a set of rules and law. If we do it well, we’re enlightened, everyone wins, everyone, both men and women, emerges as a healthier, more whole person. If we don’t do it well, it can be draconian, with folks who seem to draw the long straw, some who seem to draw the short straw. Historically, we’re always somewhere in between. But we’re always trying to get it right.

Thus far, we don’t even know the story–were these women simply wanting to pray, or were they there to be provocative? And if we don’t know the facts of the case, we certainly can’t judge the case. And we certainly can’t judge Judaism.

Nov 19, 2009 - 11:35 am 33. rivka haut:

I have been reading this blog ever since its inception but have never posted. The shocking and scandulous posts written in response to Women of the Wall have impelled me to respond.
I am proud to state that I am the founder of the group. It was my initiative to bring a halakhic women’s tefillah, exactly the type of tefillah group that thrives in many mainstream orthodox shuls in the US, to daven (pray) at the Kotel on Dec. 1, 1988. The group that has continued to pray there remains halakhic, so that any Jewish woman who wishes to participate in a halakhic group prayer service at the Kotel may do so. And many have.
I am shocked at the lashon harah (evil speech) expressed here, especially by Ken. He states that the women of WOW, whom he claims to know, are insincere…I do not wish to write his exact language, it can be found somewhere above this comment. This nasty name calling and references to the character of the women should never appear in a public space such as this. If he is religious, as he claims, how dare he engage in such lashon harah?!! he does not name the women but he does not have to, some of their names appear in the various news articles. So he has besmirched their reputations publicly. How dare he claim to know their inner intentions? How dare he judge their religious motivation? Only our Creator can do that.
I will not here enter into a discussion of the merits of WOW. Phyllis and I have co-edited an entire volume about the group. Those readers who are desirous to learn more may read the book. Anyone is free to approve or disapprove of the group, after being informed about it. It is the extreme hatred against the women in the group expressed here, the nasty personal attacks, that should be condemned.
Ken has violated halakhah by his lashon harah. I hope that he apologizes, here in this comments section, for what he has done.

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:04 pm 34. truth vs. lies:

To Aliza Berger-Cooper.

There is no misconception.

Redefining a term doesnt change the terms reality. In other words saying that Orthodox Judaism involves wearing tallit and womens prayer groups (minyanim) doesnt make that Orthodox Judaism. Women wearing tallism and forming minyanim are practices that have never been part of Jewish law and are not accepted practice by the great Rabbis throughout the generations both Ultra Orthodox or Modern Orthodox. Trying to redefine that reality doesnt make that reality change.

You can pray however you want at Robinson Arch, but please respect the tradition of the Kotel which has been an Orthodox prayer site for literally thousands of years.
nobody has banned you from going there. The issue is with forcing your belief on a place that has always been an Orthodox prayer site.

Unless of course the Orthodox Judaism is what irks you…

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:08 pm 35. bonnie:

I consider myself to be a very free and liberated women. It comes from within myself. I have given up the notion of wanting the things men have, in order to feel equal.
I am equal. What men have, they can have. What I have, I have. To eyeball their domain, I have come to understand, has almost nothing to do with equality.
I still waiting for women to catch on.

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:15 pm 36. Lies and more lies:

To Rivka Haut,

You got the article you wanted and the attention you wanted to your cause.

Are you happy now?

Great marketing I must say.

BTW no the womens prayer minyan is not accepted practice in Jewish law. What would the Rav say?

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:20 pm 37. Baruch Buchbinder:

The people who make up their own rules and change the religion without knowledge and compassion are the ones that see a threat to their way of life by the religious people as these religious people grow and children and grandchildren of these woman who have no feeling of their religion just because they wear a tallis over their shoulders does not mean they are following the religion properly. these people are the bagel people who are Jewish because they eat bagel and consider themselves jewish. they do not want to be left out in the cold so they imitate the religious people so they can be closer to g-d. If they want to be better people and move closer to g-d they should act and learn the ways of the religion. The Jewish religion is not forcing these woman to cover their face or body but only follow what the sages have thought us and what g-d wants us to do. First learn about the religion with respect and knowledge and with the right people who know the religion to teach them about the jewish religion. They will find many regards and they will appreciate the religion and themselves better as human beings.

Nov 19, 2009 - 12:23 pm 38. rivka haut:

To the anonymous poster who asked “what would the Rav say” about what he termed “women’s minyan.” I don’t know what the Rav thought about women’s “Minyan.” WOW is not constitued as a “minyan.” It is a halakhic women’s prayer group. the women of WOW omit prayers for which a minyan of men is necessary.
As for the Rav. According to rabbi Avi Weiss, who asked the Rav about this, the Rav responded that women’s prayer groups are not a violation of halakha. he nevertheless counseled Rabbi Weiss against them because of public policy, not halakhah.
My late husband a”h was a student of the Rav. In fact, he received smicha from the Rav. And, my husband was very supportive of women’s tefillah. As are many rabbis today. there are women’s tefillah groups in many orthodox synagogues: HIR, Rabbi Lookstein’s shul, the Spanish and Portuguese Synagogue, KOE in Maryland, and many more across the US and in NY. I do not have the full list, but it is on line somewhere.
Many women remain halakhically committed because of groups such as women’s tefillah which provide girls and women with a halakhic way of actively participating in group prayer. They are not for everyone, but they do provide a spiritual home for those who choose this option. I know many such women and girls.
The group at the Kotel meets one hour a month, stands in the back of the ezrat nashim (women’s section) and is not loud or boisterous. The women are simply praying, softly singing (Hallel) so that only women can hear them. Those who do not want to hear them or join them can simply move away. They only bother those who are watching and waiting for them, actively seeking them out, even from the mens side. Those who are seeking to provoke a scene.
yesterday, three men burst into the women’s section at the Kotel in order to stop them while they were in the midst of prayer. I wonder why these men were not removed from the women’s section, it is a clear halakahic violation for men to enter a women’s section during prayer. Men are supposed to concentrate on their own prayers, and not be concerned with, and certainly not be be looking at, what the women are doing.

Nov 19, 2009 - 1:33 pm 39. Evil Pundit:

“Yesterday, three men burst into the women’s section at the Kotel in order to stop them while they were in the midst of prayer.”

Isn’t this the equivalent of what your group does?

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:02 pm 40. Fern Sidman:

While some readers of this blog post have objected to Dr. Chesler’s use of the Taliban analogy, I think they are missing the point. I, too, agree that the actions of the State of Israel concerning WOW cannot in any way be compared to the draconian and murderous dictates of the Taliban as it applies to women, however I think that Dr. Chesler’s point was that without calling attention to the arrest of a woman for simply wearing a tallis, the proverbial tightening of the noose as it pertains to religious freedoms can become a reality.

I think the intentions of the members of WOW are misunderstood. They are a group of women who wish to engage in devoted prayer to the Almighty. They choose to wear taleisim and read from the Torah, but they are not violating halacha. They are not considered a minyan and they omit certain prayers that are germane to men.

If they were a bunch of upstarts seeking confrontation they could have the support of every leftist and secular advocate in Israel and they could create a groundswell of support for their cause. I think they are familiar with ths history of the civil rights movement and other liberation movements.

Rather than holding loud and raucous protests, they have taken their case to the Israeli judiciary, while adhering to rulings (i.e. Robinson’s arch) that they do not feel is equitable. If they wished to arouse hatred for the State of Israel, I imagine that they could have accomplished this easily in the last 20 years since their founding.

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:23 pm 41. Naftali:

You see how complicated this gets? If you’re not Jewish and reading this, here’s how it’s going to go. There are going to be about five different opinions expressed on this, each having some support in scripture or precedent. It’s not going to be resolved.

My understanding is that while women CAN pray and wear a tallis (showing my age there), men NEED to do it. I know that if I would go to morning minyan, every man wants to lead the davening, but I’d have to get in line, and the line is based on need. So whoever shows up in need moves ahead of me. And unless I experience a certain misfortune, I’m never getting to the front of the line. I want to lead the davening, but I don’t NEED to lead the davening.

Regarding the line, what would Rav say–IF Rav’s opinion were in the Talmud on this matter, the ‘dialogue’ would be recorded by Rav Yehuda HaNassi, who would somehow recall someone who said that EVERYONE agrees that women’s prayers are quite powerful. This would be followed by a few pages trying to find where the differences in opinions are located and seeing if these differences can reconciled. End result–they may be reconciled, or they may not.

If this were in the Talmud, the question would quickly go to–do men have the right to stop such a group? An important bit of information would be the story of Eli and Channah, and the halacha is with Channah. Eli made a mistake in improperly judging the manner in which Channah prayed. And today everyone, men included, pray in the manner and style of Channah.

That’s how it goes.

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:26 pm 42. Mike:

(IsraelNN.com) Jerusalem police arrested and later released Wednesday morning a woman who violated decorum rules at the Western Wall (Kotel) by wearing a prayer shawl, known in Hebrew as a tallit, and demanding that a Toral scroll be brought for prayers. The disturbance by a member of the group known as the “Kotel Women” occurred during morning prayers for the new Hebrew month Kislev.

Police were called to the scene after the women asked for a Torah for the reading of the portion connected with Biblical sacrifices on the new month. Western Wall Rabbi Shmuel Rabinovitch said the action was intended as a provocation in violation of Jewish tradition. He emphasized that prayer has no value when it intentionally causes a disturbance.

So it seems that the issue was not a women wearing a tallit at the Western Wall but performing a public reading from the Torah and thereby causing a distrubance during morning prayer services.

It looks like Chesler has it wrong again.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/174770

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:27 pm 43. Ben-David:

Sorry – under all the preening, this is typical “my way or the highway” one-sided liberal “tolerance”.

Some facts for those who want them:

1) This woman was not arrested for wearing a prayer shawl. She and her fellow political activists were removed from the place where they have been doing their provocative shtick for years.

The repeated confrontations have been serious enough that the Israeli courts stepped in to broker a compromise: those women who wish to lead prayers and read from the Torah can conduct that type of service at Robinson’s arch – another point just along the Temple Mount wall.

2) This group ignored the compromise already in place – which would allow them to pray as they wished, and has worked for a decade.

They weren’t there to pray – but to deliberately provoke further confrontation.

Why?

3) The agenda here is not “tolerance” or “plurality” – it is the wearying scenario of “progressive” scolds trying to force their minority view upon a majority that does not agree with them.

4) While most of the practices that distinguish the Women of the Wall are not forbidden by Jewish law – they are certainly recent innovations, and not mainstream practice.

Some of them create real halachic problems in a public space like the Wall – for example, most Orthodox men – the majority patrons of the Wall by a large measure – avoid listening to the singing of women.

Nov 19, 2009 - 2:29 pm 44. Truth vs Lies:

Rivka, you are being disingenuous.

Many people recieved semicha from the Rav. That doesnt make them a great Rabbi able to decide Halacha.

Go investigate what Rabbi Alpert, R. Bronspigel, R. Willig, R. Parnes, and R. Schachter said about this phenomenon. These are the Rosh Yeshivas of REITS and they were/are against these things.

What were the Ravs objections???
Did the Minhag beit ha-kenesset of the Kotel at any time in its history allow womens prayer groups? No
Is your very public display brinkmanship? Yes
Are you mkiyyum ha-mitsvot by disturbing the other worshippers at the Kotel? No
Do you missing out on tefilla be-tsibbur, the recitation of various devarim she-bi-kdusha, and a proper, halakhic Torah reading available with a normal minyan? ???

Most of all what you proving by agreeing with people who call other Jews Taliban??? This in itself is an indicator that you care less about Orthodox prayer than about radical femisist ideology.

Please take you and your ideologues to Robinsons Arch. Pray there however you want and leave those of use who want to pray according to normative Halacha and minhag ALONE.

Nov 19, 2009 - 3:08 pm 45. Megan:

I was lucky enough to visit Israel and the Kotel and will soon be going again.
I was warned not to bring my (very feminine) tallit, which was good I guess. I have no desire to wear men’s clothes. Note the picture accompanying the article, would men wear a tallit like that?
I fully understand its a holy place, the wall surrounding THE holiest place. That’s why I went and I was awed by it.
I was initially annoyed by a young woman talking on her cell-phone at the wall, until my friend who understand more hebrew than I informed me that she was asking for someone’s mother’s name in order to pray for their health.
I’m glad they weren’t arrested just for wearing a tallit, but I still fail to fathom how exactly reading the holy Torah is a provocation. Are those words not innately holy? They intended to provoke, some are arguing, c’mon! Peeing on it, stripping naked those would be provocations, praying & reading Torah, that would in fact be the opposite. That’s what people come to the wall to do.
I have heard Orthodox persons argue that women are on a higher spiritual level and that’s why they don’t need physical things like the tallit, that men need those. Well, I just don’t understand then why this higher spiritual level means reading Torah and singing a prayer is a provocation.

Nov 19, 2009 - 3:58 pm 46. naftali:

Okay, so there’s no way anyone not present at this event or these events can have any idea regarding the basic facts of this incident, or these incidents?

Alrighty then.

Nov 19, 2009 - 4:04 pm 47. Ray Jones:

another useless feminist lamestream journo, try to find a nice husband, raise some kids and shut the hell up already…

Nov 19, 2009 - 4:47 pm 48. David Hirsch:

As an orthodox jewish rabbinical student, I find this article offencive. the author has no clue what she’s talking about. the group she’s talking about claims to be orthodox but advocates things IE: talasim (prayer shawls) which women are forbidden from wearing. The reason for this is not oppression of women, as they claim, but rather the reasoning behind it. the reason is that the Talmud says men need extra devices to remeber god is with them (Yarmulka, Tzitis, tefilin [though tefilin they may wear], etc), because men forget, women don’t, and therefor for a woman to wear these items or do certain religous acts is an insult to god by saying they too forget he exists. The reasonings behind all of these laws are not sexist, though on face value, to an ignoramous, they might seem to be. This article and it’s author are disgusting, and offensive. The attemt at trying to compair all orthodox judaism (not their psuedo-orthodox traditionalist movement) with the taliban is disgusting. PJ should remove this offensive article. How would catholics feel if someone likened them to the taliban for not allowing women into the priesthood, or other things practised by other christians. This should be taken down or atleast allow for a real Jewish scholar to show the flaws and fallicies in their arguments. When liberals try to pervert Christianity, sites like PJ are all over condeming them, but why do they allow it when its’ orthodox Judaism.

In regard to the police get involved, that goes back to a treaty signed in 1948 when the religous militias threw their support behind the pro-western Haganah and not the Israeli Communists. this was during the states infant days when it was in a state of civil war (before the arab attacks). this treaty gives all religous sites and matters over to the rabbinate. So by israeli law, what the rabbinate says you can do at the sight is law.

PJ don’t attack the only pro-republican and politicaly conservative group of jews (Orthodox voted overwhelming for Bush and Mccain, and helped elect Chrisitie in New Jersey).

Nov 19, 2009 - 7:41 pm 49. Rahel:

It seems that posts about Jewish women’s issues, on this and other blogs, bring in their wake an appalling, but no longer surprising, amount of pure misogyny.

Ken Besig claims to know some of us and know of others, yet his assertions about us show plainly that he does not. Like Aliza, I am religious and not left-wing. And I have never met Mr. Besig. I agree with Rivka: he engaged in lashon ha-ra (if not motzi shem ra in places) and owes us an apology.

And to the commenter who uses his position as a rabbinical student to gain credibility: in my opinion, one who claims to be an aspiring scholar might gain a bit more credibility if he took the trouble to use his spell-checker before posting.

Nov 19, 2009 - 8:05 pm 50. Madashell:

“And by the way, should men who struggle for their Rights wear suspenders and a bra?”

Gosh I wasn’t aware that bras and suspenders were part of a religion.

But thanks for reminding me of why I stay away.

Nov 19, 2009 - 8:05 pm 51. Eva, Canada:

Do I care whether orthodox Jewish women can or cannot pray dressed as men? I do not. Whoever wants to reach God can do it in the comfort of his/her home. Isn’t God everywhere? My comment is, pest on all fanatics!

I’m not a hardcore atheist. I’m just tired, deadly tired of religions and the problems – from petty to horrendous – they cause around the world. Time wasted, money wasted, lives wasted. Enough already!

Nov 19, 2009 - 10:09 pm 52. Cheryl Birkner Mack:

I can’t reply to all the comments I would like to, but here’s a start.

David Lincoln asks “what’s wrong with one standard”? Only that there’s never been one. The talmud says “elu v’elu” (Both ways honor God).

Eve Pundit asks “what would happen if men came to a women’s prayer group”. If they came sincerely and gently, we would respond in kind, and inform them that they couldn’t be there. We would not threaten and would not call the police. To those who say WOW did not come sincerely and gently, I tell you we did. Until the few moments before Nofrat’s arrest, the prayer was beautiful and calm.

And for those who are relying on the media reports. There are many inaccuracies in the various reports I’ve read. The media was not there when Nofrat was arrested. Most of them were not there at all. All of their reports are second-hand at best.

I must go daven Shaharit and prepare for Shabbat.

Shabbat Shalom

i don’t know which women Ken knows, but what he writes is not true of me or of any of the regulars whom I do know. I pray 3 times a day, observe mitzvot to the best of my ability all for my own spiritual needs and with a great love of Judaism. I have no interest in offending others.

The talmud says that when a group prays together on the New Moon, God’s presence is with them. I feel this when I am with Women of the Wall and that is why I am part of this group. I am insulted when other ascribe other motivations to me.

To those who claim we “burst in”. This is inaccurate. We stand at the far back and we pray quietly. When the group is large obviously the volume increases, but it is easy to ignore us if desired as the majority of people do.

The historical context is informative–for most of its history there was no mechitza at the Wall. People prayed as they liked.

Nov 19, 2009 - 11:00 pm 53. HellenoChristian:

48. David: what do you exactely know about original Christianity, to state that attacks toward Christianity are criticized, while attacks toward Judaism are allowed?

50. Madashell: thank you for your comment, I agree with you, and I add that reading comments which show a total dependance on blind Faith, and a close mindness toward others, this makes me take more and more distance from Religion(s). How more I appreciate Jiddu Krishnamurti’s speeches/reasoning on this very subject, by reading most of the posted comments! I’m still believing Spirituality to be important, it is our Soul’s breathing: for the rest, it is death. We are living here and now, not how many centuries ago! Wake up, we are all here! [Oh Lord. Mine sounds like a shout in the Desert.]

I ASK: ’till totalitarian – religious or atheistic – Ideologies exist, how do we want Racism and Discrimination to disappear?

Nov 19, 2009 - 11:13 pm 54. Ken Besig Israel:

Dear Rivka #33,
If you are in fact a founder of this group, then you should hang your head in shame and beg forgiveness from the Almighty for your brazen and cynical disruption of the holiness of the Kotel. Unlike your group of wanton Left wing, anti Israel, anti Zionist, and secular provocateurs who want to use the Kotel to achieve a political goal, the vast majority of Jews who pray there are serious and deeply committed to Judaism, they commemorate their suffering there, our Holidays and Shabbatot there, and celebrate their family milestones there. Most religious Jewish Israelis are aware of the fact that your group is dominated and largely led by radical Left wing secular activists like Anat Hoffman, who has never even tried to disguise her loathing of Israel and Judaism .
What I would really like to see, Rivka, is an honest and accurate statement from your political circus as to why it is so important for your gang to routinely and deliberately disturb and disrupt the tranquility and spirituality of the Kotel area and the peace and quiet of those of us who pray there. Of course you won’t because nothing your gang does there has anything to do with God, or Heaven, or even Jewish spirituality, all your gang is trying to do is insult, intimidate, and embarrass really religious and observant Jews and provoke a political controversy to get a few cheap headlines by abusing the most prominent Jewish religious site in the Holy City of Jerusalem. I would say you should be ashamed of yourselves, but I seriously doubt if any of you know the meaning of the word.

Nov 20, 2009 - 2:47 am 55. HellenoChristian:

Very interesting (sob) to see how women are considered in Judaism (?). Nothing more nor less than – I would say – a potatoes’ bag, which has to be bought (is there any Dowary/Price to pay?) in order to be accurately used and taken profit from, otherwise it/she worths nothing.

She is able of nothing by herself. Without a man, pardon, a husband (not even a twin sould, someone she really loves and who really loves her), she worths nothing.

The only thing a woman can do is “a wife”, otherwise she is a “potatoes’ bag”: no intellectual nor spiritual activity is accepted from her, either she obeys (to men) or she is a unsubmitted witch; women have no independance – they cannot have it. Men/Males don’t allow them (women) to have it: if a woman tries to “find her way” and become an alive “potatoes’ bag”, she starts being attacked and suffocated, offended and humiliated, defamed and insulted.

“Shut up”, “don’t talk”, “don’t criticize”, “obey”, “submit”, “feel ashamed”, “honored/dishonored”, “God”, “witches”, “single woman” (well: this must be the worst insult ever!), … I think there isn’t much difference between the first Jewish State and the States all around it, when it comes to women’s consideration?

NOW I know why usually spiritual Movements eventually decide to hide themselves and do not show themselves to the (general) public: they get lynched, and definitely they cannot be understood (general public includes so called “religious” people).

Nov 20, 2009 - 9:11 am 56. Nathan Bloom:

Some thoughts:

It’s funny that the angry respondents who are so interested in “tranquility” at the Western Wall would use such caustic language in denouncing Ms. Chesler.

No one should buy David Hirsch’s argument that the fact that women don’t need to wear tallis/tefillin shows that they are superior. Are the rabbis who wear tefillin all day long degrading themselves by giving others the impression that they are less God-fearing?

I agree with Chesler’s detractors that the motives of WOW aren’t 100% pure. But how can they be so sure that their own motives in following Orthodox Judaism are pure? This brings to mind the saying of Hillel in Pirkei Avot: “al ta’amen be’atzmakh ad yom motakh” (don’t trust yourself until the day you die). Or the multiple injunctions in that same guide to Jewish ethics about the fundamental importance of humility.

Nov 20, 2009 - 10:22 am 57. Louise Cohen:

Below is a link to several old pictures of the kotel. There is one from 1934 and older ones in which men and women are seen standing together. Although we can’t tell what was in their hearts at the time, it’s probably safe to assume that at least some of them were actually praying. They may have had little choice, given the political realities of the time, but none of them seems to be focused on anything other than the privilege of being able to pray in a spot with so much significance to our people.

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:Wx9sv-shGzMJ:www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/wallpics.html+old+pictures+kotel&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

If prayer matters to people as a way to connect to the Divine, then they should remember that we are all created in the image of G-d. With mutual respect, surely there can be spaces for everyone to make that Divine connection in the way s/he need, without demeaning our holy brothers and sisters. All of this quibbling over spaces and “equality” and what is authentically Jewish takes us away from the ultimate quest for meaning. Have separate prayer, mixed prayer, whatever, but let’s not pretend that any one of us has the last word on what our Creator wants. We need each other.

Nov 20, 2009 - 12:16 pm 58. naftali:

#56 Nathan–

Absolutely. I’ve noticed this too. The rabbinic students tend to use the most caustic and harsh language. Some of the language is downright cruel.

I’ve said this on other threads, other articles, the Jewish Educational Institutions are failing. Not just failing a little but, but failing colossally.

But Nathan, regarding the comment about tefillin–perhaps God-fearing is the wrong word, but yes, they are acknowledging that they need a constant boost to their consciousness. I need one too, but I don’t wear tefillin all day. And that is NOT to my credit.

If you want to be truly technical–it depends on the rabbi. Some do it just show their piety, which is an oxymoron. If you have to keep showing everyone else how pious you are, how pious can you be?

Where is the the building block of Aaron, who would walk around and make peace? Forgotten skill at the Yeshiva’s?

Lashon hara is the tip of the iceberg–I gather from the evidence presented above.

Nov 20, 2009 - 1:03 pm 59. David W. Lincoln:

Tina Trent, #25, why not take a look at the canons of Judaism, or any other faith tradition, and then come to a conclusion about them, instead of the other way around.

#52, Cheryl Birkner Mack, why then, according to the commentaries on the books of the major & minor prophets do we see warning after warning for the perversion of justice, because of different standards for different folks. Take a look at “Shattered Tablets” by David Klinghoffer to see what is there, especially by what is meant by “Israel didn’t keep the sabbath, but the sabbath kept Israel”.

Nov 20, 2009 - 2:59 pm 60. Naftali:

#59 David Lincoln–

I take that statement about perversion of justice, coming from the prophets, to indicate corruption, that the different standards regard rich and poor. Your interpretation leaves out the possibility of a minhag.

Nov 20, 2009 - 3:12 pm 61. Jen L. Jones:

I don’t understand all the nuances of the incident described, but what I see as the essence is that a woman was arrested for doing something that a man would not have been arrested for — under the same circumstances. Here then we have a case of discrimination based on sex, occurring during an incident (wearing certain clothes, standing in a certain place, reading a certain text) in which sex is not relevant. Do not both sexes wear clothes, stand, and read?

It really doesn’t matter here what the Jewish religion says, nor Islam, nor Christianity, etc. The simple fact remains that women are treated differently than men — in circumstances in which their sex is not relevant.

What is it about equality that makes it so hard to understand?

(I just reread the article and now realize that the women were in the “women’s section” — this makes it worse, for apparently they are prepared to accept a segregated area for women, yet still feel they must push back the boundaries of discrimination regarding prayer shawls, etc. From this, sadly, I conclude that these women still don’t “get it.”)

Nov 20, 2009 - 5:42 pm 62. naftali:

#61 Jen

Unfortunately it’s the nuances that get you to the essence. The essence is closer to a Taoist discussion of the qualities of Yin and Yang, that Yin and Yang need to be balanced, on this everyone agrees. The questions and disagreements revolve around the right path towards this balance.

In this case, equality is defined as proper balance.

Nov 21, 2009 - 12:35 am 63. Jen L. Jones:

#62 naftali, I don’t agree with you that “In this case, equality is defined as proper balance.” Who says? Who does the defining? Wouldn’t be men, would it? What’s meant by “equality”? Wouldn’t be “following appropriate gender roles” would it? That’s not how I define equality. What’s “proper” in “proper balance”? What code is used as a reference here? Wouldn’t be a sexist code, would it? As for “balance” — what kind of weasel word is this? Equality is equality. What is it about equality that’s so hard to understand?

You are talking circles around a vitally important issue affecting half the world’s population. Address it head-on, please.

Nov 21, 2009 - 11:21 am 64. naftali:

#63 Jen–

I’m sorry, but in this particular discussion regarding the texts in Judaism, that’s how equality is defined. That’s what all of those nuances lead to. The reason we know about all of these nuances is because we’ve been working on this problem for most of our adult life, which includes studying. The fact that this confrontation took place at the Western Wall indicates a high level of agreement on many issues among both men and women.

If some here wish to argue that definition, that’s fine, and that’s going to take while all by itself.

If you really don’t like that definition, or Taoism for that matter, feel free to begin your own religion.

I have my own ideas on where the roots of Judaism began, and I suspect they are different than your ideas. I don’t feel that we are going to agree on this point.

And even if you are correct about these “men” who began defining the parameters of Judaism, these are the same men who were able to devise a system for a people to remain as such despite the continual attempts to cause our collective demise at the hands of the ancient Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, Persians, Spanish, Nazis, and now, the countries neighboring Israel. These “men”, as you say almost derisively, saw not only our exile, but our return to Israel. Even in your scenario, these can’t be ordinary people.

Regarding this “code” as you say, as in where is this code, it’s out there to study and to try to understand the meaning. It’s safe to say that we don’t know the answer, we don’t know the meaning, that’s why we are arguing.

We even argue about what the terms ‘milk’ and ‘meat’ actually mean.

What is it about other cultures don’t you understand? Is the symbol of the Tao sexist? If I go to acupuncture–and the doctor is trying to restore balance to my system, is the doctor sexist because she thinks primarily about balance? If you’re a gymnast, do you practice on the ‘equality beam’. How can you not accept that for some folks the idea of balance is a fundamental term of life?

And if you’re so convinced that these ancient Jewish men were so sexist–you’ll have to explain why the holiest name for Gd is feminine (yes, the language itself is a gendered language), and how the rules regarding the manner in which we pray were clearly and definitely exemplified by a woman. Now considering that most of what we do is pray–that sure is a considerable amount of influence that the gendered feminine has on my life. And I prefer it like that.

Your turn. ******Now’s your chance.

Nov 21, 2009 - 4:32 pm 65. naftali:

My comment was posted quickly, and I don’t know how those asterisks got in there, I didn’t type them.

And since I’m making corrections–I neglected to mention the attempted genocide of the ancient Egyptians.

My statement regarding the rules and manner in which we pray–this was initially clearly and definitely exemplified by a woman. The rules were set by her.

If you were going to name the most famous judge in Jewish history–a woman.

Let’s try this sentence again. Hopefully, no asterisks. Okay, now’s your chance.

Nov 21, 2009 - 4:47 pm 66. Carol:

Ms. Chesler, you write with such vision and call it as you see it. Fearless, honest. You are a powerhouse thinker and I feel blessed to be alive at the same time that you are and you write. You enrich my thinking and perspective on so many issues. Thank you, always.

Nov 21, 2009 - 6:03 pm 67. HellenoChristian:

62. Naftali: I love you introduce Concepts/Words belonging to other spiritual (spiritual) Traditions, and I think you got the point. About Ying and Yang, feminine Qualities and masculine Qualities, these are Qualities of the Being, and we have both (human) females and males which show they are more “feminine” or more “masculine” (“passive” or “active”, heart oriented or head oriented), depending on several things, from biological aspects to educational ones.

Psychology (the EVOLUTION of that Science, not to forget that Psyché means Soul), describes quite well – considering the EQUALITY of the Genders -the difference existing among human Beings: see Neuro Linguistical Programming.

Now: my opinion is that Religions are different, but Spirituality is one. Now: Concepts like Ying and Yang, Qualities of the Being, must be the same in every Tradition; they have been revealed the same everywhere at every Time (from East to West, from thousand of years Before Christ to centuries After Christ – I took BC and AC as reference point, but anyone can choose the references he/she likes more -). I therefore think that when it comes to Spirituality, if one is really interested in it (and not in – often almost spiritualityless “religious” Institutions -), there is the need to focus on Ying and Yang (Qualities of the Being – girl/woman or boy/man -) rather than Sex (“biological/physical” Gender’s differences). THERE THEREFORE MUST BE AN EQUALITY IN THE WAY ONE (HE/SHE) PRAYS, in order to achieve those “sexless” and “universal” Qualities.

Balance comes from the (full) achievement of both feminine and masculine Qualities.

I think if one focus on Religion/Institution, he/she can’t achieve Balance: he/she will disequate women and men, and his/her Tradition and others. There will always be unbalancing, discrimination, unequality. I am of course talking about Spirituality, not that I suggest to ignore all the practical differences that there are among us, People and human Beings, which has to be considered and respected (from Language to skin Colour included).

NOTE: I am still trying to understand “how things work”; I anyway think to be (up to now) quite sure about the described difference between Spirituality and Religion, and that both Equality and (individual/personal Differences) have to be taken into consideration.

***

66. Carol: I agree!

Nov 21, 2009 - 10:33 pm 68. naftali:

#67 HellenoChristian–

I think I understand what you’re getting at.

One of the problems that institutions have is that they tend to replicate the thoughts TOO LITERALLY related to that institution. For instance, let’s say folks go to synagogue to pray. I’d wager that virtually everyone there is thinking of some type of communication with GD, replicated the rites of the Temple, GD somehow listening–that type of thought.

I would also wager that virtually no one thinks of themselves a part of a symphony orchestra (and if you listen to how the praying sounds, I’d double down on that bet), which is another, different, institution that people THINK in UNrelated to what’s up at synagogue.

All of the instruments join together as one, but they don’t start out that way. They start out quite different, you learn to play them differently. There is similarity within the stringed instruments, but there is no relationship at all between the strings and the horns. But no good composer or conductor would think less of one section of the orchestra.

We Jews have problems praying, getting it done at all, not to mention technique. This is pretty obvious. So we go out, try our best, make mistakes, try again the next day until we get it right.

Somehow the language and concepts of sociology have crept into this activity. It hasn’t helped matters, it’s just created more rancor.

Now, I really don’t know what happened the other day at the Wall. I seriously doubt there is an actual law saying that women can’t wear a tallis. I say this because I’m not aware of a religious law that forbids this. So, something happened. It probably shouldn’t have happened. That’s as far as I can understand.

Nov 21, 2009 - 11:59 pm 69. trumpeldor:

@phyllis

The terms “jewish taliban “are not appropriate
Were you killed,stoned,harmed,spit on,raped by your opponents ???
Your politically correct use of words is misleading and stupid .
You keep your faith as you wish but indulge a little bit more in introspection and humility.

Nov 22, 2009 - 4:31 am 70. Jen L. Jones:

Look how this discussion has broadened out. If the ancient Jews did so well with male leaders, just think how well they would have done by utilizing the energies and intellect of the other half of their population.

As for Ying and Yang and “everyone agrees” –no, they don’t. And not everything can be delegated to “masculine” and “feminine.” Just look at the current cutting-edge university research in gender studies, feminist studies, women’s studies (call it what you will), and philosophy too — where the theory that gender is on a continuum, not a black-and-white issue (yes, even biologically)is gaining acceptance. Where does that leave the attempt to balance masculine and feminine qualities? Where does that leave religious gender rules? Who even decides which qualities are masculine and feminine to begin with? (Beware, this area is a minefield.) And how do we balance qualities found along a continuum, instead of being found at opposite ends of a teeter-totter?

To each her own belief, but I prefer mine with a solid basis of equality and reality … and I’m very glad that there’s a feminine name for God, since my God is a woman — and boy, is she fed up. Hearing that she has been given at least one feminine name might lighten her mood.

Nov 22, 2009 - 8:22 am 71. HellenoChristian:

70. About Ying and Yang, feminine and masculine, the basic principle is that the former is passive (it gets) and the latter is active (it gives). Yes, the principle anyone can sexually see and experience. Then, Spirituality isn’t a written book that people read and “that’s it”, so called “Enlightenment” achieved! If it was so easy, well, we would live in another kind (Quality) of World.

Balancing yourself means that you fullfill yourself, which means, you become undependant. You don’t rely on a woman for tenderness, you don’t rely on a man for power. You are able to be both tender and powerful, when it needs. This kind of balancing, or fullfillment.

It eventually doesn’t matter how do you call a Quality, if you call it feminine or masculine: what matters is the Quality self, and its “opposite” and “complementary”.

The Tree of Life has 3 pillars, the right one balances the left one and the left one balances the right one. I mean: one (a human Being) must be able to develop both “right” and “left” Qualities (see: this sounds Politics alike).

I am glad to know someone whose God is a female: (at the moment) mine is neutral (which means: it represents both feminine and masculine Qualities).

Nov 22, 2009 - 11:00 am 72. Henry:

I am outside of all this but as I looked over the comments just for interest I found the one by Louise Cohen very interesting, like “There is one (Photo) from 1934 and older ones in which men and women are seen standing together.”
For quite some time I get the impression that fanaticism has increased in recent years worldwide, making no exception for Haredim /Ultra-Orthodox. To me it looks like the “good example” of Islamists is being followed almost anywhere, including among others some fanatical Christian groups. Etc. Etc. It might be worth a thought… (Poor old Intel has tasted of this recently).

Nov 22, 2009 - 11:40 am 73. Yael:

Ms. Chesler ,
I am writing to you, since I have tremendus respect for you, your writing, and dedication to women’s rights. Whoever I think, this time your comparison is not justefied.

They were not told to wear a Tent” over thenselves so no one will see them. Actually they were told to take off the Talit since it is an unaccepted behaviour.
These woman are trying to force a change of costum and law of who wears Talit.
Beside- if it was religious peaty they could have eorn Zizit under their shirt.

The fact of the matter is most Israelis do not approve of their behaviour and do not want what this group want, since protest can be held (which they do), and they work to change the law of the land (which they haven’t succseedsd.

Not all changes that happend in Jewish tradition and customs, which accured in the USA are what most of the people of Israel want.
Comparing Israel to the taliban is like comparing Israel to the regim in Germany from 1932 to 1945. Please don’t.

I do hope you read Hebew as I am adding here a link to Haim Navon’s writing regarading this; ithink he trpresent MOST Israeli in what he says

http://www.nrg.co.il/online/1/ART1/968/124.html

Nov 22, 2009 - 1:09 pm 74. naftali:

#70 Jen–

If you would look at our history, we’ve almost been anarchic. There were times when we didn’t have a leader in the king or queen sense, but Judges were the final word, some of which, as I said, were women. Then we’ve had some kings who were absolutely nuts. And of course, we’ve had brilliant kings. Then there was a revolution and we split into two kingdoms, not to mention the anarchy of exile.

This history of our leaders does not read like the history of England.

Not to mention an inherent disrespect for leaders that seems hard-wired into us. But all of this is mentioned in the Torah, saying that this is going to be your history–so none of this chaos and tragedy should be a surprise to us at all.

Our goal is to fix the world, and believe it or not,the bottom line of this project means restoring the divine feminine presence to a certain spot on the planet. So from your outlook on us, things are not as they appear.

The fact that we get into so many internal skirmishes shows that even we cannot fathom the complexity of this project. But we’re on it, no matter how it looks, we take this very seriously.

Nov 22, 2009 - 2:50 pm 75. naftali:

#71 Helleno–

Gd has many names in our tradition. Some are masculine, some are feminine. The holiest is feminine. The one most used is feminine.

Nov 22, 2009 - 2:54 pm 76. Rachelle:

I was so very saddened to read Ms. Chesler’s use of the phrase “Jewish Taliban” regarding the response to the WOW’s experience at the Kotel. I have always greatly respected and appreciated Ms. Chesler’s work and writings on behalf of Israel and the Jewish people. I’ve always viewed her as fighting the good fight on the front lines where politics and anti-Semitism meet, a fight that many Jewish leaders fear to tread. However, I personally don’t agree with WOW’s attempts to bring contention and gender politics to the Kotel and what I see as their desire to force their concept of what is acceptable in Jewish law or custom on the traditional “status quo” at the Kotel. As others have already mentioned here, there is another section of the Wall (Robinson Arch) where they may follow their practice freely. I personally, as a professional woman who is modern and very much engaged in the world, prefer to pray in the traditionally accepted way and do not feel comfortable with woman leyning (chanting publicly) from the Torah. Why should I have “change” forced upon me? In any case, my main point is that to use the word “Taliban” to describe the Jews involved in the incident at the Kotel is unfair in the extreme and very unfortunate. It reminds me of people who called President Bush “Hitler” and completely believed that to be true. Impossible to argue with them. I have no doubt that the Women of the Wall are sincere in their prayers and desire to connect with G-d. However, since this has happened before, they must know exactly the response they will get when they break from the norm at the Kotel. It seems clear that they knowingly provoke a negative reaction in order to force a legal decision to change accepted religious practice at the Kotel. For this reason the whole endeavor has the quality of staged political theater. Whatever one’s feelings are regarding WOW’s cause, I believe that at a time when the Jewish people is being attacked on every front, from without and from within, the last thing we need to be doing right now is fomenting conflict within our community. We have enemies committed to our annihilation, as Ms. Chesler knows better than anyone. G-d hears our prayers best when we are united. Let’s fight the real Taliban, shall we?

Nov 22, 2009 - 6:51 pm 77. HellenoChristian:

75. Naftali, thank you I did not know about that. I knew about 72 names? Compared to the 99 of Islam (Taliban). I see in those names a way to meditate in Qualities, sort of Totems (see Indian Natives’ Tradition) which can help you develop once – so to say – power, once – so to say – tenderness. The spectrum of Qualities is uncountable (or maybe it is countable, not anyway a number I am able to count). Same process is to be found in Hinduism, where Deities represent Qualities, Essences of the Being (both God/-s and human Beings, allegedly created upon its/their image). Following this way, the step between “Religion” and “Atheism” get shorter and shorter: it is the fear of infinity which keep us attached to “Religion” and forbid us to “think different” (and see those who “think different” as a threat – so Talibans do toward others, Non-taliban and Non-islamic or Non-islamist -).

Nov 22, 2009 - 10:12 pm 78. naftali:

#77 Helleno

There is one name that has 72 letters. It isn’t used much, and even if you look right at it you’re still not quite sure what you’re looking at.

I think the dynamic you pointed out, the relationship between fear and narrow thinking, is true for just about every endeavor and isn’t confined to religion.

I saw that narrowness in academia–it’s there in spades. In fact, I dare you to name an area where you don’t find that fear/narrow minded dynamic.

I honestly can’t think of one.

Nov 23, 2009 - 1:32 am 79. HellenoChristian:

Dear Naftali, I don’t think one can compare an Institution (Institution) like Religion(s) with other more anonymus and subjected to changing, field(s) of one (indivual’s or population’s) life. Yes fear and love are to different aspects of the same coin, exactely as freedom and faithfulness are, but the Religion’s field had and still have a great impact on everyone’s life (individuals and populations). Science(s) have an impact on people’s lives, but they are allowed to change: it is even expected them to change, evolve, go further; when it comes to Religion, we face an Institution which refuses to change, out of fear and out of economical/political/whatever interests (fear to loose its institutional power). We might differenciate between personal – irrational – fear(s), which is human and normal, and subjected (for brave Hearts/Souls) to be overcame, and institutional(ized) fear(s), which are (kept) there for precise purposes, and which usually serve few ones’ (economical, poltiical, …) interests, while they damage most people’s lives. Academical fears belong to the latter group; fear of women (…) belong to the former group. Maybe group number 1 is subjected to become group number 2, and that’s the point where criticism starts getting banned …?

Nov 23, 2009 - 4:28 am 80. RichardG:

Dr. Chesler,

As a religious Jew, fervent supporter of the State of Israel and anti-Jihadist activist I bitterly resent your use of the term “Jewish Taliban.” I think it borders on being a “Hillul Hashem.” You owe us all a profound apology!

Sincerely,

Richard Gilman

Nov 29, 2009 - 3:16 pm 81. Cheryl Birkner Mack:

Yael,
I don’t think that Haim Navon represents the majority of Israelis. He certainly doesn’t represent the thousands who turned out Saturday night and the many more who wanted to be there in support of Women of the Wall and other groups seeking freedom of (Jewish) religion in Israel.

Nov 30, 2009 - 8:08 am 82. Charlene Doe:

The people in Israel have a group of fanatics I call Jewish Taliban no different then the Islamic people have a group of fanatics called Islamic fundamentalist or Taliban. Same as we in the USA have the Christian Taliban.
Nothing more then a group of fake know it all self proclaimed experts who think they are above all others before God. They hate feminism, homosexuals, other races and cultures and strongly push women to be slaves to men. The whole world is the same push women into slavery as they think God would want it. Now watch Zionists and orthodox Jews dont want to hear that Israel is no different then any other part of the world. Far from perfect.

Feb 3, 2010 - 2:22 pm

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