42 Comments

1. what is "occupation":

the true egyptians.. the coptics (before the arabs invaded from arabia in 640 ce)

interesting how many native peoples of the maghreb and the rest of the middle east have been swallowed up and occupied by the arabs of arabia…

but it all comes down to the fact that only the islamic arabs are NATIVE no matter where they go, from england to detroit, from jerusalem to london, they claim lands for old Mo and they BECOME the native…

the world needs to bow to the black rock death cult….

dont like it? your a racist…

As a Jew, I have seen the bastard child of my great great great great grandfather cause nothing but trouble, death and destruction, everywhere they have gone… today is no different..

Am I a bigot because I hate the way my step cousins are retarded? or am I close enough to KNOW what kind of retarded, inbred jackasses MY STEP cousins actually are….

Jul 5, 2008 - 8:38 am 2. Steve Skubinna:

“It might contain entries like ‘a Chinese is to be treated as an ethnic minority under this circumstance but treated as white in that circumstance’ etc.”

Of course, in college admissions that’s already true. Except that Chinese (or rather Asian-Americans) have an even higher bar than whites to overcome in applying to a top school. You’d think they’d be elated by their elevated “better than white” status, yet oddly they are not.

And of course we all know that Jews fell out of minority victim status somewhere about the time they got into all the country clubs… no matter what historical obstacles they might have faced, they’ve all been washed clean.

The lesson is obvious – if you want bona fide minority status and all of the luster it brings, do not be successful, do not get a reputation for intelligence, hard work, or ambition. Because if you do, then you become as good as, if not better than “whites.” And naturally nobody wants to be in that horrible state.

Jul 5, 2008 - 8:58 am 3. Jamie Irons:

Wretchard,

Implicit in your analysis, it seems to me, is that the only solution to our muddle is to permit the free saying of “hateful” words by all and sundry.

The fact that “dead white males” first came up with this notion will make it a very hard sell, however.

Jamie Irons

Jul 5, 2008 - 9:10 am 4. what is "occupation":

steve: And of course we all know that Jews fell out of minority victim status somewhere about the time they got into all the country clubs… no matter what historical obstacles they might have faced, they’ve all been washed clean.

Steve, Jews were never recognized as a minority in any inclusive way… Only in ways to keep them out.

The way Jews got INTO country clubs, colleges, schools and hospitals was by BUILDING better ones for themselves (and open to the general population). By the time the concept of KEEPING Jews out of those restricted institutions became unpopular they had become irrelevant.

There is no, nor ever a minority check box for jews….

there are NO, nor ever any “Jewish” rights organizations in America. Jews, unlike blacks, gays, women (and many others) propose NO LAW concerning Jewish RIghts, rather Jewish groups that advocate civil rights, do so for all citizens

As for being “washed clean” bullshit…

There exists many a glass ceiling for Jews through-out this great land of America. The difference? jews dont sit around and bitch about the “MAN”, the get off their asses and CREATE businesses, schools, hospitals, industry, leaders to make irrelevant those forces that seek to hold back the “jews”

this lesson should be learned when it comes to all who bitch about the glass ceilings or racism…

make those who hold you down IRRELEVANT…

So rather than complain about every the Jew hater that I have (and every other jew i know) have lived through, most of us, most of the time fight back by succeeding and if we are lucky, watching those that held dominion over us, come and ask us for a job….

and of course, since we are MUCH nicer people than they are… We of course hire them…

Jul 5, 2008 - 9:54 am 5. Charles:

Steve Skubinna:

And of course we all know that Jews fell out of minority victim status somewhere about the time they got into all the country clubs… no matter what historical obstacles they might have faced, they’ve all been washed clean.
///////////
This is not quite right. There are some country clubs in idaho that the jdl is putting a lot of pressure on. idaho? idaho. imho the jdl is led by a hollywood throwback to the 1950’s.

Jul 5, 2008 - 10:00 am 6. Lifeofthemind:

Before the time of Muhammed most of the Hejaz was Jewish, most of the civilized regions surrounding the Hejaz were inhabited by Christians of varying types, often Nestorian. Other peoples farther out were adherents of Zorastrianism or Hinduism. Some were practicing traditional polytheistic faiths. The breathtaking hypocrisy of the Islamists is revealed by there having imposed their power and faith over these communities by violence, genocide, threats, enslavement and colonization followed by the claim that once a territory has passed under Islamic control the clock stops and it can never go back.

Jul 5, 2008 - 10:02 am 7. fred:

Lifeofthemind,

So far, only you have put up the actual truth of the violent transformation that the cult of “Allah” (Muhammad’s sock puppet deity)has worked over a vast area of what used to be Jewish and Christian civilization. The core of this issue is and always was the Islamic duty to convert, subjugate, or kill anyone who would not utter the Shehada.

“Victim” status is obviously incidental to the wider truth of the matter. If only politically-correct, “recognized” victims are allowed to speak out, then that means non-privileged witnesses to the truth must be silenced. And that means there is no recognized ethical duty to speak out on behalf of those who have been set upon by these 7th century savages. Only the bleatings and supplications of the recognized victims can provide a clue as to what is happening in our deconstructed, post-modernist reality.

Notice I’ve emphatically stated that the current socialist regimes in the West have done violence to things like ethical precepts and truth. The Copts are living witnesses to the truth, and we have a duty to go in search of the history of that truth and to speak out about it. When we are silenced and persecuted for speaking the truth, then we know that we are following in the way of Jesus of Nazareth. He told us that following him is going to mean taking up the Cross.

It is our persecutors here in the West, as well as our Islamic persecutors, who stand before God as condemned in their words, thoughts, and deeds. We “whites” who stand by actual persecuted peoples to testify to the truth will be sustained by graces and consolations. We must stand firm.

Jul 5, 2008 - 11:22 am 8. John Samford:

Racism is as old as humanity. It will never ‘go away’ entirely. Eventually, genetics will advance to the point where rational people know that it doesn’t matter.
Sex change operations were impossible 50 years ago. Will ‘race change’ operations be possible in another 50 years? Will some judge sentence a black man to being white for 90 days? Or visa versa?
Will it matter? No matter how much scientific progress is made, you will never be able to reason a man out of a position he didn’t take thru reason. Rational arguments will never alter irrational behavior.

BTW, The US Government officially classifies Arabs as white. So Ohhhh…..BAMA having a 75% Arab father makes him 87.5 % white. I’m not sure if that is enough to make his claim to ‘blackness’ fraud. I don’t think the feds use the one drop rule when it comes to determining minority status.
So it is possible any benefits, Ohhhhh….BAMA got for being black were fraudulent.

Jul 5, 2008 - 11:34 am 9. Lifeofthemind:

fred,
I know you mean well but be careful not to get sloppy using the terms “we” and “our” in your arguments. I may or may not wish to be included in one community or another, I am not for example an adherent to the faith that motivates you, but what we are considering here should be universal, or at least objectively verifiable, facts. The damage done to the principles of rational discourse, as exemplified by Aristotelian Analysis and carried through Occam’s Razor, by the disciples of Deconstructivism is very real. On that you have a valid point. Everyone who cares about progress and problem solving must continue to craft and refine arguments so clearly and carefully that the bulwark of reality against a howling nihilism can be maintained.

Jul 5, 2008 - 11:45 am 10. Steve Skubinna:

“what is occupation,” if I understand your point, it is that Jews escaped the “minority status” box before it was officially established. Which I don’t see invalidates my point, which is that people are capable of bettering their position without government intervention.

Likewise, Asian-Americans similarly screwed themselves by relying upon their own resources to rise, instead of waiting for Officially Designated Victim status. If they had simply been patient and trusted the benevolent government, and its allies in the affiliated caring fields, they’d not be in the uncomfortable bow they’re now in, where they’re expected to do better than whites academically and penalized if they don’t.

No, they could be in the enviable position that inner city Blacks are in now. So they, and the Jews, can reflect upon their foolishness in trying to succeed on their own. Although given the Jews’ traditional emphasis on education and achievement, I’d say the deck was stacked against them all along – when Victim Cards were being handed out, it probably would have been by Jewish lawyers.

Jul 5, 2008 - 12:16 pm 11. Lifeofthemind:

Steve,
Sounds like a lot of anger there. Not thinking that you are helping to solve the problem this way. Are you going to hate and lash out at everyone? The attachment of Asians to the Democratic party is interesting and worthy of study.

Jul 5, 2008 - 12:32 pm 12. Utopia Parkway:

Spengler has an interesting column The pope, the president and politics of faith in which he basically says that an attempt to convert Muslims to Christianity is an important, perhaps the only possible, strategy to win against the Muslim world. He sees the current Pope as recognizing this and of being the point man for this strategy.

Although I never would have thought such a thing up, in fact, I would now vote in favor of this if given the opportunity.

The indigenous Christians in the ME, like the copts, could be an effective fifth column in this war. I’ve read (sorry no link) that in Black Africa Christianity is on the march and is winning against Islam. Many Black Africans are converting to C from I. The idea is that given a choice any rational person would choose Christianity over Islam.

[btw, why is there no preview option to view my submission before I send it on this web site?]

Jul 5, 2008 - 12:33 pm 13. fred:

I never meant to limit my above comments to just the Coptic Christians and the Jews. Many other peoples and religions have been set upon by these jackals. Zoroastrians, Hindus, Buddhists, and African animists have been savagely attacked by the minions of Allah. The larger point I want to make is that this game of politically-correct victim labeling is stupid. It fails to recognize rational and universal ethics and duties, and I find myself solidly within the Catholic tradition of Thomistic appropriation of Aristotle.

I realize that perhaps Wretchard would like to see the pc, mutli-culti deconstruction of our civilization collapse in on its own internal contradictions. Perhaps it should and maybe it will, but that would require minds attuned to contradictions. But what do we do if this crowd does not have contradiction in its mental universe or lexicon?

I believe the Copts represent something larger than their ethnic or religious identity. It stands squarely against their persecutors – who are people melded into a totalitarian alliance that seeks only control and domination. This alliance is against human freedom and progress. If we do not name them right at the outset for who and what they are, we allow them to control the universe of discourse – and that Babel of confusion and obfuscation quite deliberately serves their purposes to divide us.

Jul 5, 2008 - 12:52 pm 14. Lifeofthemind:

fred,
That I understand. Let us consider your point in conjunction with the Spengler article referenced by Utopia. Are non-Muslim communities in the Muslim dominated territories witnesses of an alternative path that could lead to the disintegration of Islam? Could they serve as catalysts for the transformation of Islam into a normal creed that can coexist with other communities? Do they instead serve as dhimmi hostages that impede the successful response of challenged communities in Dar-al-Hab? For a long time I have noticed the destruction of the Christian arab community of Bethlehem by the Islamist forces. During this episode some of the most strident voices against the integrity of the Jewish state have been members of the Christian communities both within and outside of Israel. Would the situation be better if Israel simply annexed Bethlehem, expelled colonizing Islamists, and declared itself the protector of the minority Christian community?

Jul 5, 2008 - 1:06 pm 15. Nomenklatura:

Liberals are all for individuals’ freedom and democracy except where the result doesn’t correspond to what they would like to see, at which point they start to meddle. That’s how we end up with what is essentially an attempt to reinvent caste.

The result is always a mess, for several reasons:

- Liberals can’t even agree amongst themselves on what outcome they would like to see (as in this quite typical case, where they can’t settle on who the victims are).

- Liberals are resistant to thinking in terms of tradeoffs, because a need for tradeoffs implies that perfect solutions are not available. They prefer to oscillate between momentary enthusiasms.

- Liberals always exhibit a strong preference for administratively complex systems, because to them it’s a prerequisite that the outcome should be rigged in favor of the relatively educated and articulate.

- The opportunity to hand out publicly-funded benefits and preferences like bon-bons is just too much fun to give up. They can’t stop themselves. Even when public benefits (like subsidized housing and welfare) turn out to have disastrous effects, playing with whole segments of society as they were toy trains is just too much fun.

One day our descendants will learn how to teach basic economics and accounting to most of the population. This will transform society as much as our society was transformed when most people learned to read and write. At that point our current period will seem an age of primitive, ignorant squabbling.

Jul 5, 2008 - 1:09 pm 16. fred:

Lifeofthemind,

I just read the Spengler article and liked it very much. I must admit, however, that I have a view quite opposite of the Jesuit Paulo dall Ogglio (I’m an ex-Jesuit seminarian). There is nothing we can really do to permanently appease Islam. Its scriptures, consistently upheld as right from the mind of “Allah” (in Christianity we would call it ipsissima Dei)contain numerous injunctions of permanent hostility and war against we the kafirs. I have my doubts that Father dall Ogglio has ever read the Qur’an or the most authoritative ahadith, Bukhari and Muslim. If he did then he would conclude that his attempts at snake charming are very limited holding actions. He’s afraid of seeing his life’s work go for naught. I think he has a limited view of the sweep of history. As for his cherished “friendships” with Muslims and their clerics, is he not aware that Muslims are commanded by Allah to not take unbelievers as friends? And what appears to him as interfaith dialog is most certainly their way of ensnaring him into a false sense of security.

Very many Muslim apostates who are deeply versed in their scriptures and the traditions say that Islam cannot be reformed. When you take out everything retrograde, reprobate, violent, misogynistic, imperialistic, intolerant, weird, and, frankly, evil there is very little left to it. People like Ali Sina, Ibn Warraq, and Walid Shoebat find nothing redeeming or reformable. Sina was a Muslim scholar and former cleric in Iran (before the revolution). He’s gone into every nook and cranny of Islam and finds it all: offensive, a fraud, violent, evil, irrational. He’s done a scorching analysis of Muhammad’s life – a psychobiography – that exposes the enormous evil of the man and what he gave birth to.

Jul 5, 2008 - 1:30 pm 17. 49erDweet:

W’s point is spot on. The “elite” in the west have reached a point where PC mindset apes a “Three Stooges” film plot. Except that they’re merely stupid, not funny. The two best strategies against that POV, imo, are truth and ridicule. Aid those espousing freedom but don’t support [in any manner] those stifling liberty. Point out their absurdities and evil nature instead.

Jul 5, 2008 - 1:30 pm 18. Steynian 189 « Free Mark Steyn!:

[...] PERSECUTED EGYPTIAN CHRISTIANS: “The Coptic community in Sydney marched to the Egyptian consulate to protest the [...]

Jul 5, 2008 - 1:31 pm 19. Alexis:

John Samford:

I’ve noticed how the nastiest racism often comes when there is the least amount of physical difference and the greatest amount of intermarriage. Call it the “narcissism of small differences” if you like, but it’s there. Hence, you’ll have people of mixed heritage with blue eyes and blond hair talking about how much they hate white people, Saudis with facial features straight out of 1930’s Nazi cartoons against Jews making Nazi-style cartoons against Jews, and Hutus killing their Tutsi neighbors in Rwanda. Racial hatred tends to be the most intense when the cultures are nearly identical, the physical differences are minimal, and political climate in academe is monolithic.

I’ll concede that Barack Obama is black; he chooses to be black and he has married into black culture. And yet, I wish he could accept not only that he had a white mother and has a white grandmother, but that he is white just as much as he is black. When Senator Obama doesn’t seem to accept his whiteness as part of who he is, that bothers me. It has been said that familiarity breeds contempt. When I see Senator Obama’s campaign literature, I see his face with a cold hard sneer. I see contempt. That bothers me.

Based upon looks, I can’t tell the difference among Serbs, Croats, and Muslims from Bosnia; they probably can’t either. There was a time when being Serb, Croat, or Muslim didn’t mean very much in ordinary life. The Tito regime classified people and claimed to be multi-nationalistic. Imagine the horror of learning from a refugee that America’s racial classification system is far more intrusive than Yugoslavia’s racial classification system. America’s system of racial profiling has become a burden that must be shed if social progress is to be made in America. And yet, Senator Obama doesn’t want to stop racial profiling in America, certainly not in our census two years from now.

I’ve noticed how bigots will sometimes change their bigotry from one form of intolerance to another. Imagine a religion where people from all “races” come together and live in one happy family, only to feel the most virulent hatred toward all other religions. That is not a real change, merely a shift in the label of the official enemy. When a racial bigot changes his bigotry from racial intolerance to religious intolerance, he hasn’t changed who he is – he’s still a bigot. I’m reminded of Steve Dallas from the old Bloom County cartoon. Changing from a stupid conservative to a stupid liberal didn’t change who he really was. He was still a stupid jerk.

Jul 5, 2008 - 1:49 pm 20. Lifeofthemind:

fred,
A wily Jesuit eh?
I think you are to generous to Paolo in Syria, he knows, that is why I asked what role others in the East serve.

Jul 5, 2008 - 2:01 pm 21. Lifeofthemind:

Alexis,
Well stated

Jul 5, 2008 - 2:09 pm 22. whiskey:

Let’s take this one step further. Muslims in Britain in particular are using violence (bombings, other terrorist activities) to create surrender to Sharia by the elite. The Chief Justice in Britain says Sharia is inevitable and should be imposed. Echoing Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury. Kids in school (non-Muslims) are required to pray to Allah as part of Multiculturalism. There are “no-go” areas in much of Britain for Christians and other non-Muslims.

If you wish to be safe from Muslim harrassment and Sharia Law, who can you turn to as an ordinary person in Britain? You cannot depend on your Government, they have already surrendered faster than the French in May 1940. You yourself are likely to be middle aged and simply unable to deal out violence.

The only outcome for you is to pay Anglo organized crime figures protection money to keep yourself safe from Muslims. For example, under Sharia, a Muslim has a perfect right to kill your dog. For many people, particularly unmarried people, their pets are their family. They spend much money on them. Will they spend money on organized crime people to keep them safe from Muslim harassment? Yes.

And what can Organized Crime people do about Muslim harassment? Why threaten them back! Kidnap a member of the Muslim leadership, threaten/beat the person, the usual tactics of say, Columbia’s Pablo Escobar and “los Pepes.” You’ll probably see that all around the West.

Officially, PC-Multi-culti and Human rights commissions. Unofficially, “los Pepes” vs. Muslims. There can be in the end, to quote Highlander, only one. Either Sharia or non-Sharia.

Jul 5, 2008 - 2:37 pm 23. Steve Skubinna:

lifeofthemind, anger, hate? Where do you get that? Please don’t project that onto me, laddybuck. Even better, take your bullshit PC intimidation elsewhere. Shove it right next to the “racist” card I think I see you fingering.

Jul 5, 2008 - 2:52 pm 24. RWE:

As someone else once pointed out, is it not interesting that some 60 plus years after the defeat of the Third Reich that its obsession with “eugenics” and Racial Purity is once more popular – and popular with the people who most often hurl the “Nazi” epithet.

The Nazis already wrote the principles you wonder about Wretchard. One drop of the wrong kind of blood and you go to the camps.

Besides that it has become obvious that “Successful = White”, no matter what the color of your skin

Jul 5, 2008 - 3:48 pm 25. honestjoe:

@what is “occupation”

You said; “the true egyptians.. the coptics (before the arabs invaded from arabia in 640 ce)

interesting how many native peoples of the maghreb and the rest of the middle east have been swallowed up and occupied by the arabs of arabia…”

Where do you come by this information?

The growth of Islam in these countries was “NOT” due to a sudden influx of Arabs but gradual conversion to Islam by the native population who later were termed “Arabs”. The predominant population of Mesopotamia (today’s Iraq), Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon and Egypt were Arab Christians.

Historical documents and archaeological findings shows with the preponderance of evidence that the first Christian community and church took root in Mesopotamia, what is now known as Iraq.

The Apostle Thomas and his cousin Addai first brought Christianity to the Parthian capital of Seleucia-Ctesiphon (20 miles from Baghdad) where the Gospel was preached to the Assyrians by the Apostle Thomas himself whom like Christ spoke the Assyrians native tongue referred to amongst Jewish scholars as Kitav Ashuri (Assyrian writing). However, it’s been accepted to refer to the Assyrian language as Aramaic since Christ spoke it.

The majority of the Arab population had converted from Judaism to Christianity by the second century such as the Nestorians, Monophysites, Jacobites Copts and Assyrians giving Iraqi’s people of the past (the Assyrians) a legitimate claim to being the first Christian nation in history. At the Council of Nicaea, where the words of the Christian creed were thrashed out in 325 AD, there were more bishops from Mesopotamia and India than there were from western Europe.

Fired by their new faith, the Arab Christians began one of the most successful missionary enterprises of all time. By the end of the twelfth century the Assyrian Church spanned the Asian continent, from Syria to the Philippines. Marco Polo reported that during his visit to China in the thirteenth century, he was astonished to find Assyrian priests in the Chinese royal court, and tens of thousands of Chinese Christians. The Assyrian missionaries had been there since the sixth century, and had made such an impact that the first Mongolian system of writing used the Assyrian alphabet.

The pre-Islamic Middle East was dominated by the Byzantine and Sassanian empires. The Roman-Persian Wars between the two had devastated the inhabitants, making the empires unpopular amongst the local tribes. Furthermore, most of the Christian Churches in these lands such as Nestorians, Monophysites, Jacobites and Copts were under pressure from the Christian Orthodoxy who deemed them as heretics.

(NOTE: Curiously, in the West the Book of Revelation was long regarded as unauthentic, while Shepherd of Hermas was considered genuine even though it had long gone out of fashion in the East, so that the Greek manuscripts of it are but two in number; whereas in the West it became better known and was frequently copied in the Middle Ages)

During the time of Muhammad (According to the Koran Muhammad is a prophet of revelations told to him by the archangel Gabriel) there was wide range of interpretations of the message of Jesus of Nazareth. So many that the region had become a refuge for groups considered heretical by the Orthodox Byzantine emperors – Bahira became a heretical monk, whose views inspired the Qur’an (Muhammad was greatly influenced by the Christian Monk Bahira). Many Christian authors maintain that Bahira’s works formed the basis the Qur’an which conforms to the principles of Christianity. The names and religious affiliations of the monk vary in different Christian sources. For Al-Kindi, who calls him Sergius and writes that he later called himself Nestorius, Bahira was a Nestorian. After the 9th century, Byzantine polemicists refer to him as Baeira or Pakhyras, both being derivatives of the name Bahira, and describe him as an iconoclast. Sometimes Bahira is called a Jacobite or an Arian. Bahira is at the center of the Apocalypse of Bahira, which exists in Syriac and Arabic which makes the case for an origin of the Qur’an from Christian apocrypha. Christian authors maintain that Bahira’s works formed the basis of those parts of the Qur’an that conform to the principles of Christianity.

Surprisingly, (to me), Jesus occupies a place in the Koran superior to all the prophets who preceded him. He is believed to be the son of God (not a God) born from the virgin Mary (who is also not a God) through Gods will.

Muhammad was raised a Christian and was taught Judeo-Christian theology from child hood as he belonged to the Banu Hashim, the most important family in the Quraish tribe. Its importance came from their being the decedents of the prophet Abraham himself (the ancestor of Muhammad through his other son Ishmael) and so the family had inherited the role as the keepers of the Kaaba.

NOTE: The Kaaba is a large cubical building believed by Muslims to date back to the time of Adam and Eve. The Kaaba was rebuilt built by Abraham and his son Ishmael around 2000 BC. Near the Kaaba are the graves of prophet Ishmael and his mother Hagar.

Anyway to some it up I feel I need to repeat for the sake of historical accuracy that the growth of Islam in these countries was “NOT” due to a sudden influx of Arabs but gradual conversion to Islam by the native population who later were termed “Arabs”. The predominant population of Mesopotamia (today’s Iraq), Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon and Egypt were Arab Christians.

Jul 5, 2008 - 3:49 pm 26. Wadeusaf:

“Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”–WFB

Jul 5, 2008 - 4:38 pm 27. honestjoe:

@Alexis

You said; “America’s system of racial profiling has become a burden that must be shed if social progress is to be made in America.”

I absolutely agree for Americas current system only continues to feed the flames of racist bigotry.

“It’s one thing to be the target of an individual’s bigotry. It’s quite another to have one arm of government discriminate against an entire race and then have another one give that action legal cover.”
Source:http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bctwj/21_2/02_FTN.htm#F22

For example look how the Justice Department is considering letting the FBI investigate Americans without any evidence of wrongdoing, relying instead on a terrorist profile that could single out Muslims, Arabs or other racial and ethnic groups.

“Currently, FBI agents need specific reasons like evidence or allegations that a law probably has been violated to investigate U.S. citizens and legal residents. But the new policy, law enforcement officials told The Associated Press, would let agents open preliminary terrorism investigations after mining public records and intelligence to build a profile of traits that, taken together, were deemed suspicious.”

They won’t just be discriminating against one race, they will be discriminating against everyone who is not white. The criteria they are using is hardly comforting:

“Among the factors that could make someone subject of an investigation is travel to regions of the world known for terrorist activity, access to weapons or military training, along with the person’s race or ethnicity.”

This will not help America unite with a nationalist patriotic pro America attitude but instead this will only help to divide this great melting pot called the “United” States of America.

Jul 5, 2008 - 4:59 pm 28. Areader:

Honestjoe, do you really believe that Abraham would have, for no identifiable reason, left Canaan and traveled to Arabia with his bastard son? I read that Muslims (and their pagan antecedents) believe the black rock inside the kaaba came from the heavens, i.e. is a meteorite.

Jul 5, 2008 - 5:35 pm 29. Eggplant:

Wretchard said:

“It’s hard to escape the conclusion that there are some things that only a person of a certain race can legitimately utter.”

This is the main reason why it is vital that McCain’s VP choice be a person-of-color. B. Hussein has surrounded himself with racism based booby-traps. By accident, Hillary set one off a couple months ago and the MSM reacted as expected. Hussein will directly invoke the racism defense when his poll numbers start to drop. A black or brown McCain VP who is a skilled debater should be able to neutralize any of Hussein’s racism based strategies.

Jul 5, 2008 - 7:01 pm 30. honestjoe:

@Areader

I do not believe in any religion per say, I am spiritual but it is not influenced by any organized religion though my spiritual beliefs would be considered western as its roots stem from my being raised simply a Christian.

Therefore I am not a “believer” of the Islamic religion but I have a personal interest in history and try to study all historical documents to further my understanding of past events.

As far as Abraham goes I understand that his travel to “Arabia” happened “before” he had traveled to Canaan and even before his stay in Harran and before Ishmael’s having left with his mother and former slave of Abraham, Hagar.

Some scholars identify the Biblical Haran with Harran. Genesis 27:43 makes Haran the home of Laban and connects it with Isaac and Jacob: Jacob spent 20 years in Haran working for his uncle Laban (cf. Genesis 31:38&41). The place-name should not be confused with Haran (Hebrew: הָרָן), Abraham’s brother and Lot’s father — note that the two names are spelled differently in the original Hebrew.

Islamic tradition also links Harran to Aran, the brother of Abraham. (cf. Genesis 11:26-32)

Whats odd is that Josephus, Islamic tradition, and Jewish authorities like Maimonides all concur that Abraham was born in Northern Mesopotamia — now southeastern Turkey (identified with Urkesh, Urartu, Urfa, and Kutha respectively).

Yet Abraham’s city of birth Ur Kaśdim in the Hebrew Bible has been popularly identified since 1927 by Sir Charles Woolley with the Sumerian city of Ur, in southern Mesopotamia,right on the border of Arabia.

NOTE: Both Jewish and Christian traditions also consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people. Arabic culture was first spread in the Middle East by the ethnically Arab Christians such as the Ghassanids, Lakhmids, Banu Judham and the Banu Hashim of which Muhammad belonged.

According to Jewish tradition (based on the Anno Mundi era introduced by Maimonides in the 12th century), Abraham lived AM 1948–2123 (1812 BC to 1637 BC). Christian traditional dates are about 2000 BC to 1825 BC. So Abraham had plenty of time to travel to Arabia.

As far as the stone goes. Yes I do assume it’s merely a meteorite.

Jul 5, 2008 - 7:17 pm 31. Alexis:

Meteorite worship was relatively common in ancient Phoenicia. A “holy city” such as Tyre or Paphos was expected to have a shrine with a “betyl”, which was the word used for a meteorite. Interestingly, there seems to be a correlation between ancient reverence for meteorites and temple prostitution. (There has been some scholarly speculation about whether the shrine of Bethel also referred to a “betyl”.) So, any meteorite worship in an Islamic context ironically exhibits its cultural authenticity (as well as a certain level of rank idolatry). There is reason to believe that the Shi’a are correct about the authenticity of a mu’ta, or a “marriage of pleasure”; for the “sacred marriage” rite was integral to ancient Semitic religious practice.

Josiah’s reforms and the Deuteronomist priests of Israel went out of their way to eradicate the ancient folkways of stone worship and temple prostitution, and both Judaism and Christianity show the effects of these reforms. Given that Muslims claim that Judaism and Christianity were corruptions of an ancient religion that it claims to restore, it makes one wonder if Islam regards the reforms of Josiah (against stone worship, child sacrifice, temple prostitution, et cetera) as the “corruptions” in Judaism and Christianity that they rail against.

Contemporaneous with Semitic reverence for meteorites was the Greek custom of revering fossil bones as relics and regarding them as the bones of giants who were regarded as the founding ancestors of the various city states. For that matter, the ancient rites of temple prostitution can be found to this day among the Ouled Nail tribe in Algeria; this tribe may be accurate in regarding its ancient customs to be an authentic expression of Islamic faith.

So, is Islam authentic, as it claims to be? I think that is the wrong question to ask, for one should not equate authenticity with theological merit or illiteracy with wisdom.

Jul 5, 2008 - 8:08 pm 32. Storm-Rider:

The Eastern Byzantines and the Western Copts: Metaphors for the future of America? They were formerly great civilizations, and yet they fell to the irrational force of Totalitarian Islam. Think about it; do you want your grandchildren or great-grandchildren to either submit to Islam, or live as second class citizens as today’s Egyptian Copts? Will America be a land of individual liberty in a hundred years? Will government of the people, by the people and for the people perish from the Earth? Do you care about what happens to future generations of Americans? Will American Leftist/Socialists ally with those who agitate politically for the injustice of Islamic Sharia Law, and thereby bring closer the possible fall of the greatest nation in history?

Jul 5, 2008 - 8:12 pm 33. what is "occupation":

honestjoe

“The majority of the Arab population had converted from Judaism to Christianity by the second century such as the Nestorians, Monophysites, Jacobites Copts and Assyrians giving Iraqi’s people of the past (the Assyrians) a legitimate claim to being the first Christian nation in history”

now where do you get your information (besides Wikipedia?)

“majority of the Arab population had converted from Judaism to Christianity by the second century:

arabs were never jews…..

there were JEWS that lived in Iraq for centuries, long before islam was invented….

but arabs that were jews?

come on….

Jul 5, 2008 - 10:24 pm 34. Jay:

Christians and many Jews in Egypt started converting to Islam to avoid the harsh taxes imposed on that by their Arab rulers. The Arabs were living off the those taxes. They panicked when the conversions turned the population Muslim since they were losing their mealtickets. So they imposed land and other taxes on their new “brothers”.

Jul 6, 2008 - 6:55 am 35. honestjoe:

@what is “occupation”

You asked; “now where do you get your information (besides Wikipedia?)”

I used The Jewish Virtual Library (a division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise)and the Catholic library as it is most the most extensive containing also non catholic works for historical references.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13706a.htm
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/premo.html
Best to start here:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/HEBREWS/HEBREWS.HTM

In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah’s eldest son. The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews as they both share a common ancient history that is reflected by the many similar stories of Islam and Judaism as well as of course their semitic language.

A HEBREW is someone descended from Heber (or, “Eber”), one of the great-grandsons of Shem. So all Hebrews are Semites, but not all Semites are Hebrews. (Both Sunnite Arabs and Jews are Semites, and Hebrews, as well as Jews.)

Six generations after Heber, Abraham was born to his line, so Abraham was both a Hebrew and a Semite, born of the line of Heber and Shem.

Ishmael was born of Abraham, and (Sunnite) Arabs (and specifically Muslims) consider themselves to be descendants of him, so they are both Semitic and Hebrews. Isaac was born of Abraham, then Jacob of Isaac. Jacob’s name was changed to “Israel,” and he fathered 12 sons. His sons and their descendants are called Israelites, and they would therefore be both Semitic and Hebrew. However, this would not make either Abraham or Isaac “Israelites.” Those who poorly use the words “Jew” and Israelite, call Abraham a Jew, even though Abraham was not even an Israelite, and where the word “Jew” is not used in the Bible until 1,000 years AFTER Abraham.

One of Jacob-Israel’s children was Judah (Hebrew – Yehudah). His descendants were called Yehudim (”Judahites”). In Greek this reads Ioudaioi (”Judeans”). The confusing thing here is that almost all Bible translations employ the word “Jew,” which is a modern, shortened form of the word “Judahite.” Every time you come to the word “Jew” in the Old Scriptures, you should read “Judahite;” and every time you come to the word “Jew” in the New Scriptures, you should read it as “Judean.”

The term Semite was proposed at first for the languages related to the Hebrew by Ludwig Schlözer, in Eichhorn’s “Repertorium”, vol. VIII (Leipzig, 1781), p. 161. Through Eichhorn the name then came into general usage (cf. his “Einleitung in das Alte Testament” (Leipzig, 1787), I, p. 45. In his “Gesch. der neuen Sprachenkunde”, pt. I (Göttingen, 1807) it had already become a fixed technical term.

The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

The tribes which inhabited these territories, and to some extent still inhabit them, show in language, traits, and character a sharply characterized individuality which separates them distinctly from other peoples. Their languages axe closely related to one another, not being almost independent branches of language, like the great groups of Indo-Germanic languages, but rather dialects of a single linguistic group. Physically, also, the Semitic form it is found in Arabia. Here also the phonetics and partly also the grammatical structure of the Semitic language, are most purely, as the vocabulary is most completely, preserved. From these as well as from other circumstances the conclusion has been drawn that Arabia should be considered the original home of the Semitic peoples.

And so in short The growth of Islam in these countries was “NOT” due to a sudden influx of “Arabs” but gradual conversion to Islam by the NATIVE POPULATION who later were termed “Arabs”. The predominant population of Mesopotamia (today’s Iraq), Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Lebanon and Egypt were “Arab” Christians.

Jul 6, 2008 - 10:54 am 36. Eggplant:

Alexis said:

“Meteorite worship was relatively common in ancient Phoenicia.”

The ancient Greeks and Romans also engaged in meteorite worship. The most famous example was the Roman emperor Elagabalus who created the “Deus Sol Invictus” cult that centered around a conical shaped meteorite. The meteorite was displayed in a temple (called the “Elagabalium”) near the Colosseum in Rome. One can see images of this cult object on the back of Roman coins struck during Elagabalus’ reign. This same meteorite might have been a stone that was earlier worshiped by the Phoenicians.

History does not record what happened to Elagabalus’ meteorite. Who knows? It’s not likely (nickel-iron meteroites tend to rust) but maybe the Kaba stone is the same rock?

Jul 6, 2008 - 11:45 am 37. Eggplant:

For those that are interested, the following link shows a coin struck during Elagabalus’ reign depicting a sacred meteorite being transported in a fancy cart:

http://www.wildwinds.com/coins/ric/elagabalus/_sidon_AE30_SNGCop_255.jpg

Again, one wonders where these sacred rocks ended up.

Jul 6, 2008 - 9:03 pm 38. Alexis:

Eggplant:

Um, actually, Elagabalus didn’t create the “Deus Sol Invictus” cult; he imported it. Culturally speaking, Elagabalus was a foreigner to Roman culture who sought to replace Roman religious traditions with the worship of El-Gabal. I regard the behavior of Elagabalus and his family toward Roman religion to be similar in spirit to what Jezebel attempted against Israeli religion when she married into the House of Omri.

I doubt that meteorite worship was common among Greeks and Romans any more than the worship of Hanuman (a Hindu monkey deity) is common among Americans. I do find your reference to the importation of the “Deus Sol Invictus” cult by a Syrian priest-emperor to be intriguing, considering the recent rise of another cultural phenomenon centered around the symbol of a rising sun.

Let’s hope America doesn’t turn into the House of the Rising Sun writ large…

Jul 7, 2008 - 8:59 am 39. Roderick Reilly:

Thank you Wretchard for indirectly and inadvertently providing the historical context for the Crusades. So many guilt-ridden Westerners who even go around apologizing for the Crusades have no idea that the Mediterranean Basin was largely Christian at the time of Islam’s beginnings. One of the reasons the Dark Ages were called that was because it was a perilous time for Christianity. At the same time that Christians were losing their non-European territories, they had yet to convert much of Northern Europe and Scandinavia. Many ignorant modern revisionists would have us believe that the Crusades were a typical white male “invasion pathology.”

Jul 7, 2008 - 10:12 am 40. Alexis:

Eggplant:

I noticed how Heliogabalus was usually associated with Astarte, Minerva, and/or Urania. This is similar to the “three daughters” (al-Lat, al-Uzza, and Manat) of Allah in the “satanic verses”. On the other hand, El-Gabal was a solar deity while Allah was a lunar deity, so I doubt there was any direct connection between the two religions.

It’s probable that Mecca was founded not by Abraham but by King Nabonidus of the late Babylonian Empire. King Nabonidus worshipped a moon deity and extended his empire into Arabia as far as the modern city of Medina. He was fond of founding shrines, and it would not have been out of character for him to found the shrine at Mecca. The deity fits. The meteorite worship fits. Even the southern focus of Nabonidus’s imperialism fits.

Considering how Nabonidus attempted to replace the worship of Ishtar and Marduk with his lunar deity, and considering how various aspects of Meccan worship of the pre-Mohammedan era seem to carry the stamp of late Babylonian custom, perhaps the triumph of Islam one millennium later should be seen as the revenge of Nabonidus.

Jul 8, 2008 - 8:55 am 41. Eggplant:

Alexis said:

“I doubt that meteorite worship was common among Greeks and Romans any more than the worship of Hanuman (a Hindu monkey deity) is common among Americans.”

You would be surprised. One of my hobbies is collecting ancient coins. It’s quite common to see the depiction of a temple or religious object on the reverse of an ancient coin (similar to the Lincoln memorial on the back of the penny). Typically one sees a cult statue inside the temple (like Lincoln’s statue inside his memorial) or an isolated statue, e.g. Zeus sitting on a throne or Apollo standing. If an egg or conical shaped object is depicted inside a temple or on a cart then it is normally assumed to be a holy meteorite. There were a bunch of meteorite cults in the ancient world. It’s reasonable, since if a person actually found a meteorite after it impacted the ground then the logical place to send the stone would be the local temple, e.g. it’s a “gift” from Zeus, blessing the local village. The ‘betyl’ that attracted Elagabalus’ attention is merely the most famous ancient example. It’s humorous and little pathetic that the Moslems are still doing this with the Kaba.

Jul 8, 2008 - 7:28 pm 42. Eggplant:

Alexis said:

“It’s probable that Mecca was founded not by Abraham but by King Nabonidus of the late Babylonian Empire. King Nabonidus worshipped a moon deity and extended his empire into Arabia as far as the modern city of Medina. He was fond of founding shrines, and it would not have been out of character for him to found the shrine at Mecca. The deity fits. The meteorite worship fits. Even the southern focus of Nabonidus’s imperialism fits.”

I’m not familiar with King Nabonidus and can not comment. The Arabs did almost everything they could to erase their pre-Islamic history (a pity actually). The better ancient Arabian coins came from the Kingdom of Nabatea (the Nabateans did a fair amount of trade with the Greeks and Romans). The Nabateans (like the ancient Jews) embraced Hellenic culture and some of their coins were patterned after the Athenian Owl tetradrachmas.

Jul 8, 2008 - 7:50 pm

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