88 Comments

1. sirius_sir:

Last summer McCain said he would rather lose the nomination than lose the war and possibly this allowed some people who hadn’t before to understand the stakes involved.

McCain is no longer saying this because he doesn’t have to. But more than that, I think he now realizes the stakes involved require he win the election.

Jul 15, 2008 - 5:31 pm 2. Teresita:

McCain is no longer saying this because he doesn’t have to. But more than that, I think he now realizes the stakes involved require he win the election.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Bush said major combat operations in Iraq were completed on May 1, 2003, but now if McCain doesn’t become President on January 20, 2009, we lose the war? American and Iraqi forces are driving Al-Qaeda in Iraq out of its last redoubt in the north of the country in the culmination of one of the most spectacular victories of the war on terror, but if Obama wins in November, all this is for nothing?

Jul 15, 2008 - 5:49 pm 3. Bob Murphy:

Teresita,
The US and Iraqi armed forces have gained the upper hand in the current situation on the ground in Iraq.

What happens if the US walks under a President Obama?

Do you really think the Iraqi military could seriously challenge an Iranian incursion?

Imagine a direct land link up between Iran and Syria across Iraq.

Bye, bye Israel, Lebanon, Jordan.

And that’s before Iran acquires or develops nuclear weapons with which to blackmail the region.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:24 pm 4. Ron Hardin:

The surge worked in Iraq because it followed a few years of less-than-surge, when the population was given time to finally tire of being blown up by shitheads.

The surge provided and took advantage of the new safety of turning the now hated bad guys in.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:38 pm 5. Richard Fernandez:

Of course after major combat operations against Saddam’s army were completed in May, 2003, history continued. Unfortunately history never seems to stop at the ‘perfect moment’. Right after the German and Japanese surrender, history moved on. The Cold War — which was potentially even more dangerous than the Second World War — followed immediately on its heels. Greece, Eastern Europe, the insurgency in Korea, the Huks, the Malayan emergency, Indonesia, the post-war trouble in the Balkans, the Berlin Airlift were all underway in the same time difference that seperates us in 2008 from 2003. Some I am sure said, “but didn’t the Second World War just end? Why are we in this ‘Cold War’ again?” Only the dead have seen the end of history.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:40 pm 6. MarkJ:

Teresita,

“American and Iraqi forces are driving Al-Qaeda in Iraq out of its last redoubt in the north of the country in the culmination of one of the most spectacular victories of the war on terror….”

Yes indeed, and no thanks to His Majesty Obama I. A Lexis-Nexis search will quickly establish that fact.

“…but if Obama wins in November, all this is for nothing?

Yes it will be. And if you don’t believe this, then re-parse Obama’s verifiably fact- and truth-challenged op-ed this week. I’ll say one thing: when the Barackster was in college, he must have gotten straight A’s in Creative Writing.

Jul 15, 2008 - 6:54 pm 7. Teresita:

Do you really think the Iraqi military could seriously challenge an Iranian incursion?

The Iraqi military took back Basra and they are taking the lead in mopping up Mosul. Do you think the Iranians could execute an incursion on that scale without becoming the hapless target of endless waves of B-52s from D-Gar dropping cluster bombs? We’re talking about the same Iranian army that took 8 years and a million people to fight a man to a draw who we defeated in three weeks at a cost of 139 Doughboys and 33 Tommies.

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:10 pm 8. wretchard:

Do you think the Iranians could execute an incursion on that scale without becoming the hapless target of endless waves of B-52s from D-Gar dropping cluster bombs? We’re talking about the same Iranian army that took 8 years and a million people to fight a man to a draw who we defeated in three weeks at a cost of 139 Doughboys and 33 Tommies.

Under GWB. Under BHO it will be a wholly different ballgame. That’s his promise, not mine.

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:12 pm 9. dla:

GWB prosecuted the war in Iraq correctly, trying, failing, learning, changing, trying again and classically beating Al-Qaeda by getting inside their OODA loop.

McCain understands this. Obama understands this too, but he is mentally and politically shackled by the mental midgets controlling his party. McCain is free to propose a sensible course to Afgan victory now during the campaign. Obama has to pretend to be a liberal moron and pull the ol-switcheroo once he makes it into the Whitehouse.

Or I might just have it wrong. Obama might be a liberal loon with a Pelosi/Reid case of liberal dementia. But I’d like to think otherwise.

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:29 pm 10. Alexis:

In the event of an American withdrawal from Iraq, who controls Iraqi airspace? Will Iraq, or will Iraqi airspace become the domain of Iran and Saudi Arabia?

I don’t think we should take American control over Iraqi airspace for granted once our troops leave Iraq; we may face a situation where the United States respects Iraqi demands that we leave treat Iraqi airspace as sovereign territory while Iraq’s neighbors gain control over that airspace against Iraqi objection. In terms of air power, it would seem that an American withdrawal from Iraq wouldn’t turn the clock back to 2003 but instead to 1991 or earlier.

It is my hope that Iraq will eventually become strong enough to control its own airspace and defend it successfully from its neighbors. In the meantime, I am not convinced that it is in Iraq’s national interest to officially acquire control over Iraqi airspace until Iraq obtains the means to successfully assert full sovereignty.

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:42 pm 11. Peter:

Yes, major combat operations in Iraq are over. We haven’t had a division-sized operation since 2003, much less an Army-sized operation.

This is much like the Left’s complaint about that sign on the Honest Abe. When an Aircraft Carrier returns home from a combad cruise they hang a sign from the island superstructure.
The brass hats chose “Mission Accomplished”. This had nothing to do with Dubya, everything to do with the Lincoln Carrier Battle Group, which did accomplish it’s mission.

There is plenty to complain about the war’s handling, one does not need to turn plain English into gobblygook

Major combat operations Are over, the Honest Abe did accomplish her mission.

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:47 pm 12. Cannoneer No. 4:

Is McCain going to ram a Sons of Afghanistan-type irregular security force down Karzai’s throat?

Instead of putting three US BCT’s at the end of a long and easily interdicted line of communications, why don’t we send 10,000 troops worth of Embedded Training Teams and police Mentoring Teams to expedite an a surge of indig boots on Afghan ground?

And all the caveat troops can either go home or run their own logistical operation through Uzbekistan, Russia and Poland.

Jul 15, 2008 - 7:59 pm 13. Lifeofthemind:

Every President brings his own experience and expertise to the office. Eisenhower was an expert at coalition politics. JFK, like Clinton, was an expert on rhetoric and skirt chasing. Lyndon Johnson (who learned from studying FDR) was an expert on bureaucratic empire building. Nixon was a competent lawyer who excelled at nurturing grievances and intrigue. Ford like Johnson knew inside politics better than any real craft. Carter was a small time micro-manager, he knew the back end of a ship and the front end of a peanut warehouse. Reagan not only remembered the economics he learned at college but he really knew the skills he learned as a union boss and as a professional communicator. Ronald Reagan may have been America’s President with the broadest outside experience. Bush 41 was like Eisenhower. He knew the world of diplomacy and intelligence. Bush 43 knows B-school stuff, spreadsheets and tickler files for accountability. He also knows the energy business, you can hear it in his press conferences. McCain knows survival and endurance and how the military works but like Obama, and most other politicians who make it this far, he has limited experience out of government. Obama knows rhetoric, low level cause advocacy, which is not the same as really being a good lawyer, and almost nothing else.

Jul 15, 2008 - 8:07 pm 14. Teresita:

Peter: The brass hats chose “Mission Accomplished”. This had nothing to do with Dubya, everything to do with the Lincoln Carrier Battle Group, which did accomplish it’s mission.

For months, the Bush administration denied that it was responsible for the banner, blaming the aircraft carrier crew itself. Since then, White House officials have acknowledged it was their idea. “We put it up. We made the sign,” Fleischer said. “But I think it accurately summed up where we were at the time, mission accomplished… the mission was to topple Saddam Hussein.”

Jul 15, 2008 - 8:31 pm 15. Dave:

Well, it seems McCain has grasped the concept of “Drive Them Out”. Do not try to “destroy enemy forces on the field of battle”. That is something that sometimes happens when you are following a correct strategy.

Instead, drive them out of one place, drive them out of the next, and keep right on driving. There are many variations on this theme, but the bedrock principle remains.

The problem in Afghanistan is not Iraq, it is the notion that somehow or other the coalition can make the Taliban vanish. Same fallacy that caused all the pre-surge difficulty in Iraq.

Always takes some time and some trial and error before the winning formula is achieved. McCain grasps this at least subconciously.

Obama is clueless. His vision of things is that Presidential directives can create desirable events. Maybe he can learn reality in a big hurry. Maybe not. I just as soon not have to find out.

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:25 pm 16. Wadeusaf:

“McCain knows survival and endurance and how the military works but…,”

I wouldn’t poo-poo that experience too fast, running a squadron is no small feat. Even with all the cookie cutter set ups and regulations, it acts organizationally like both a small city or like a large business. Add to that the mental toughness which allowed McCain and his fellow POW’s to survive and I am not sure there is much out there that could take McCain out or put him off balance, He’s survived some of the most partisan politicizing since the Civil War, and came out with his honor and sense of purpose intact.

I do not know of many who can make the same claim.

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:29 pm 17. chill:

Who is John McCain…

Why I Will Not Vote for John McCain

Phillip Butler | March 27, 2008

As some of you might know, John McCain is a long-time acquaintance of mine that goes way back to our time together at the U.S. Naval Academy and as Prisoners of War in Vietnam. He is a man I respect and admire in some ways. But there are a number of reasons why I will not vote for him for President of the United States.

Click the link below to read the rest.

Source: http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859,00.html

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:37 pm 18. Dave:

Says that P Butler is with Veterans for Peace. Look up that organization, its history, etc and proceed accordingly.

Jul 15, 2008 - 10:52 pm 19. trangbang68:

Chill’ The Butler peace is liberal crapola.He in no way makes a case against McCain, only states there were other POWs who suffered. Well, Duh! So What? By and large Butler won’t vote for McCain because he is a liberal Democrat.

Jul 15, 2008 - 11:26 pm 20. Doug:

Obama’s Achilles Heel Is Obama

This campaign is already crystallizing around one question: “Do I really want the next president of the United States to be this fellow Barack Obama?”

Despite his admirable qualities, McCain grows harder to discern on the political radar screen. Fewer people seem to be interested in asking themselves, “What do I see in John McCain that really makes me want him to be president?”
It looks now as though this election may turn on one issue: Obama as Obama.

By subordinating conflicting policy issues, almost to the point of extinction, Obama is leaving himself (whoever that is), his background (wherever that is) and his integrity (such as that may be) as all that matters.
Ironically, Obama as Obama is the issue upon which Obama first introduced himself to voters. Even “change” was a derivative of Obama as Obama.

Obama as Obama recalls his embarrassing support, then disavowal, of the Rev. Jeremiah Wright. That reintroduces the collateral issue of flip-flopping — not necessarily specific flips on which Obama has flopped, but the vague impression of flip-floppery as his personal way of political life. That’s a nasty set of sub-issues Obama doesn’t need, for it echoes Obama as Obama.

Each time Barack Obama reaches for another of his policy-issue boomerangs, he would be well advised not to forget to duck.

Jul 16, 2008 - 5:05 am 21. hdgreene:

This rhetorical head fake of Teresita’s — that George Bush declared major combat operations over on May 1, 2003 — reminds me of why I grew to loath the MSM for their arrogance and condescension. For a week before the speech on the Aircraft Carrier, they kept asking the President, “Are you going to declare the war over?” They asked this question numerous times of themselves and everyone in the Administration. I saw one interview with Bush where they would ask the question, he would refuse to declare “the war over,” and they would come back to it. Utter Bull. I knew exactly what the MSM Hive was up to. Get George Bush to say the war is over and with the first American that died in Iraq — and every American thereafter — they would say “George Bush said the war was over!”

If he refused to say the war was over, they’d accuse him of needlessly prolonging the war to squeeze more innocent blood out the barbarous and futile exercise (which the “All Wise” of the MSM hive had already declared it). Endless war it was! But the “was” was an MSM rhetorical trap.

Declaring an end to “Major Combat Operations” was a way out of the trap. The fact that five years later Teresita brings it up shows exactly what they were aiming at: turning the military victory for the nation — the removal of the Baathist regime from power — into a political defeat for the President, as they repeated “The President said the war was over!” endlessly.

Now, five years later, Teresita brings up that speech. Imagine if the MSM had got its way? She would be saying, “the President said this war was over and victory secured on May 1, 2003.”

Remember, our military maneuvers and the resulting “ephemeral” victories are unimportant (other than in the lives lost and ruined). It’s the political Left’s rhetorical maneuvers and political triumphs that count, and are remembered. (Mistakes? Forgotten.)

Jul 16, 2008 - 5:16 am 22. Teresita:

hdgreene: Declaring an end to “Major Combat Operations” was a way out of the trap.

It may have been a way for the President to get out of a rhetorical trap, but what about the 4,000 Americans who found Iraq, AFTER that speech, to be a fatal trap? And by trap, this is what I mean: The President sent them there, sometimes for three or four tours of fifteen months each, and the only door out was not military success on the ground, but political success between the three main factions in Iraq. Yet now that they have their political success, and the duly elected Prime Minister is asking for a formal timeline for the US to withdraw their troops, Bush and McCain are conditioning that withdrawal on military success on the ground in Iraq. So now we’ve made the switch from political back to military. It’s apparent the neocons just want to stay in Iraq at all costs, and they will invent justifications to do so.

Jul 16, 2008 - 6:19 am 23. Alexis:

doug:

I find Phillip Butler’s piece to be amusing because he acts as though this election is a referendum on McCain when we already live in the Obama Era. Even if (and hopefully if) Obama loses the general election, we’re still in the Obama Era because his personality effectively dominates America’s political landscape. Love him or leave him, this election is all about him.

Given how Senator Obama’s superb marketing has given his presidential campaign an immense “stage presence” in American culture, the way Obama markets himself becomes a legitimate campaign issue. Senator Obama’s campaign iconography becomes a legitimate campaign issue.

Although this election appears to be about electing an American president, it is also a referendum about the nature of that political office. Are Americans voting for a prime minister or for a god emperor? And lest anyone think the term “god emperor” is mere hyperbole, remember that it was not I who placed that halo upon Senator Obama’s head; that halo is found in Senator Obama’s official campaign literature.

I think John McCain is not the first choice of most Americans; the questions are whether he is an adequate candidate and whether he is an improvement over Barack Obama. Although opinions obviously differ on this issue, Senator Obama’s penchant for using dirty tricks in politics ought to give voters pause. When a man invalidates the petition signatures of rival candidates so he becomes the only man on the ballot, he may be acting legally, but his use of such a sleazy tactic calls his moral character into question.

As a candidate for Louisiana governor in 1991, Edwin Edwards is remembered less for who he was than for who he was not. Likewise, John McCain will be remembered less for who he is than for who he is not.

Vote for the hothead. It’s important.

Jul 16, 2008 - 6:50 am 24. starling:

hdgreene wrote: “This rhetorical head fake of Teresita’s — that George Bush declared major combat operations over on May 1, 2003 — reminds me of why I grew to loath the MSM for their arrogance and condescension.”

Point taken. It will probably not surprise you that the MSM, particularly the major newspapers, continue to suffer enormous financial and organizational setbacks, as detailed here Black and White and Red (Ink) all Over.

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:03 am 25. Todays Current Events in Politics » Alert - “John McCain”:

[...] John McCain on Afghanistan By Richard Fernandez John McCain laid out his strategic thinking in the War on Terror in an integrated way, examining in particular the link between the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. In describing the situation McCain extends the logic of the Iraq … Belmont Club – http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez [...]

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:16 am 26. newtland:

Is it just me, or does McCain seem to be hitting his stride?

And learning a little something about Reaganomics on the way?

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:33 am 27. Vinny Vidivici:

newtland, I hope you’re right and, correspondingly, that Obama has peaked.

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:50 am 28. RWE:

By the way folks, while all the shoutin’ was goin’ on, The Surge was completed. We are back to pre-surge levels in Iraq. Taaa-Daaa. Mission Accomplished, indeed.

But I don’t much like the idea of a new Surge in Afghanistan. Different situation. About 15 min after we walked in much of the Afghan population mentally was where the Iraqis are now. Seizing and holding the mountains of the border areas seems to be equal parts dangerous and pointless. The Pashtun seem to be inclined to like the Taliban as much as the rest of the country was inclined to despise them. So let them. Bombs away!

We should not let the taunts of the Left drive our war making policies any more than we allow those same chanting idiots to convince us to embrace disarmament.

And also by the way, we just abandoned that outpost where we lost those 9 troops. Bombs away again!

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:51 am 29. David M:

The Thunder Run has linked to this post in the – Web Reconnaissance for 07/16/2008 A short recon of what’s out there that might draw your attention, updated throughout the day…so check back often.

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:19 am 30. frankhagan.com » McCain, Iran and Afghanistan:

[...] a H/T to Richard Fernandez at Belmont Club, we find a world of difference between McCain’s view of the struggle against terrorism and [...]

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:47 am 31. Stu:

The democrats ( Obama) are opposed to increasing domestic oil production. They are also opposed to increasing foreign oil production as evidenced by Obama’s head in the sand foreign policy address yesterday. With a stable government and security environment Iraq stands to double oil production over the next 5 years. With the rush to the exits foreign policy of Obama and the attendant destabilization of Iraq which will surely follow, what oil company would invest in that environment? I make a handsome living and the cost of oil products is not a drag on my lifestyle. What about the “masses” that the democrats and their messiah purport to represent? Who will point out the anti-consumer bias of the party of the left and their leader?

Jul 16, 2008 - 9:12 am 32. trangbang68:

Teresita, Hate to nitpick,but it is mathematically impossible for someone to have served 4 15 month tours in Iraq unless it was one 60 month continuous tour. While the tempo of the Clinton downsized military is worrisome,it’s good to keep your facts straight,

Jul 16, 2008 - 10:56 am 33. Doug:

“we’re still in the Obama Era because his personality effectively dominates America’s political landscape”
Alexis:
Judging by the media, much of EuroWorld appears to be dominated.

Trangbang,
A few of the canine crew may have exceeded that number in their World.
Were Wretch a Grunt, he could already have served several lifetimes.

Jul 16, 2008 - 2:10 pm 34. JR Garner:

Teresita is a digusting dissembler. Virtually anything she/he/it says seems to be nothing but leftist cant.

I agree McCain seems to be getting better at his job and I say Obama is beginning to melt like the Wicked Witch. This might be a McGovern-style blowout.

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:27 pm 35. chill:

McCain himself makes the case for him to not be the President of the USA for the simple fact that, he doesn’t have the foresight nor the judgement for what we need in our next President. His generation had their time and look were it has gotten us. Let us not forget that he voted to go to war against Iraq!

On November 29, 2002 on CNN’s Late Edition, Sen. McCain said, “We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies….I don’t think it’s easy, but I believe that we can win an overwhelming victory in a very short period of time.”

In contrast, Obama made a prominent speech around the same time, October 2, 2002, in which he said, “But I also know that Saddam poses no imminent and direct threat to the United States, or to his neighbors, that the Iraqi economy is in shambles, that the Iraqi military a fraction of its former strength, and that in concert with the international community he can be contained until, in the way of all petty dictators, he falls away into the dustbin of history. “I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a U.S. occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of Al-Qaeda.” Obama correctly foresaw the consequences of the biggest foreign policy blunder in American history. McCain won’t even support vets after the bloodletting? Which candidate do you think is more “naive on foreign policy and not as qualified to lead the military”?

If you vote for a Republican for the President, you will only get more wars and high taxation, because their foresight and judgement are lacking. McCain is not the “Straight Talk Express”. He is the “Double Talk I Don’t Care About You Except For Me Express”!

http://www.geocities.com/fc_dfl/Natl_Debt_Chart_2006-email.jpg

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:27 pm 36. NahnCee:

chill – you’re disgusting in your infantilism and stupidity. run away now and bang your head against the wall for a while more until you can grow up a little bit.

BTW, I would vote for McCain or anyone else you would not recommend just for the delight of watching your head explode.

Jul 16, 2008 - 3:32 pm 37. trangbang68:

Chill, I think if I hear one more time that Iraq was the biggest foreign policy disaster in American history ,my head will explode. I’d probably cast my vote for Jimmie Carter allowing Khomeini to take power in Iran,along with the Democratic Congress selling out South Viet Nam in 1975, Clinton allowing the transfer of missile technology to China for campaign contributions to name a few.
I laugh at your statement that” McCain’s generation has had their time and look where it has gotten us”. Yeah why don’t we turn the ship of state over to slackers and delusional peaceniks like you? The only problem is it might be a fatal choice for our nation.

Jul 16, 2008 - 4:06 pm 38. Doug:

McCain Campaign Uses Web Spider to Sting Obama

Jul 16, 2008 - 5:25 pm 39. Bob Murphy:

Chill, there’s no presumption of reason with you but I’ll mention this anyway.
Iraq has exploded Al Qaeda’s myths in a big way. Recruitment has dried up of those willing to go smite the Crusaders because we have proven to be the baddest mothers in the valley of death.
And the Iraqis have seen the full horror of the thugs, murderers, torturers, of Al Qaeda and other terrorist gangs and have had enough.
Many of those Iraqis see US soldiers there as the most uncorrupt of the alternatives to Al Qaeda.
That has further eroded support for Islamo fascism. Iraq is but one arena in the struggle with the barbarians, Afghanistan is another, and the Sudan, parts of Kenya, and Iran, the Wahabists of Saudi Arabia and the Islamic Brotherhood of Egypt are the roots of the Islamo-fascist movement.
They have come unstuck in Iraq. Only one thing can queer it now. Obama and his America and western culture hating minions.
Even I will vote for McCain against Obama and his Code Pink, Soros, move on mates.

Jul 16, 2008 - 6:27 pm 40. Joshua:

Re: Doug @ Jul 16, 2008 – 5:05 am
I’ve made the argument before that campaign fundraising and financing is vastly overrated as a sign of strength, especially with a campaign like Obama’s which is its own worst enemy. It’s as though Obama’s spending his own money to do McCain’s dirty work for him.

Jul 16, 2008 - 6:40 pm 41. Chicago Boyz » Blog Archive » Fernandez Clarifies - As Do His Readers:

[...] to be that Obama will win; I would not argue.  But the first commentor at Belmont Club’s post makes a point that we might keep in mind (and reinforces the depression says he feels): Last summer [...]

Jul 16, 2008 - 7:09 pm 42. Peterike:

Chill is a shill. The bulk of Chill’s post, the 2nd and 3rd graphs, appear word for word on the my.barackobama.com blog, posted June 30.

The same two paragraphs also appear on something called veteransforcommonsense.org, which I didn’t look into because the name tells me all I need to know about it. That was posted on May 30th.

Finally, getting to the source of the paragraphs we find it again on the barackobama.com page, listed as being from “Keith Wilson’s Blog” posted on March 8th. Apparently the Ur-source is noted: “The following editorial (written by the newspaper’s editor) appeared in the Grant County Herald newspaper (Elbow Lake, Minnesota, population 1213) in the March 5th, 2008 edition.”

Keith Wilson — the editor, I suppose — notes why he supports Obambi: “Barack Obama is intelligent, caring, organized, honest, consistent, and seems to have an amazing ability to reach people. His books are a must-read.”

In other words, Keith Wilson is a nincompoop.

Chill is probably just some troll that swiped the words of a nincompoop, surrounded them with two paragraphs of his own, and no doubt squealed with girlish delight at how clever he was.

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:14 pm 43. Dave:

By the way fellows, I read elsewhwere that AFL-CIO is “organizing” (read “paying”) Veterans Against McCain.

That whirring sound you hear is Samuel Gompers spinning in his grave.

Jul 16, 2008 - 8:50 pm 44. NahnCee:

Peterike – thank you. It did sound a little pre-canned, now that I think about it, which may be why I reacted so vehemently on a first post. Usually trolls need to pave the way to an explosive putdown with many idiocies written over a period of time.

Making a mental note to Google for myself next time a post contains so much prefabricated bullshit.

Jul 16, 2008 - 9:12 pm 45. cedarford:

The “genius and legendary good judgement of the Obamessiah”?

It rests on very thin ice, as Chill demonstrates. It was all about one speech one of his progressive Jewish megamillionaire Sugarmommas asked him to give to a small crowd of ex-SDS’rs like herself (BetteLu Saltzman nee Kutznik), and her old SDS roomate Marilyn Katz (former staffer for Paul Simon) who also asked Obama to “say something that the old anti-Vietnam crowd could get behind”.

The Black Messiah had no clue on what the intelligence was on Iraq, had never had any involvement with the military or foreign policy in his whole lifetime – but like Jacques Villepin, Red Ken Livingston, Baghdad Bob, Barbara Boxer, Vladimir Putin, Saddam himself, Jane Fonda, Fidel Castro….he knew enough to bark and clap his flippers for his sugarmomma and say the right Lefty stuff.

Chill – Let us not forget that he voted to go to war against Iraq!

As did almost 3/4ths the Illinois Congressional delegation and likely Black Messiah would have as well if his vote actually mattered in 2002, based on how he was backing away from the vote in 2003 and erasing it from his website.

Chill – In contrast, Obama made a prominent speech around the same time, October 2, 2002, in which he said…….. Obama correctly foresaw the consequences of the biggest foreign policy blunder in American history.

It was a small gathering organized by two progressive Jewish sugarmommas to Obama, as forgettable as his “famous” anti-Iraq War State Senator vote. Which another progressive Jewish sugarmomma, Barack mentor and liberal activist Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky asked him to cast for “symbolic value” instead of voting “present”, Obama’s normal preference.
There was nothing “prescient” about Obamessiah’s vote or speech. He voted the same way other Hard Lefties did. His speech was little different than the one Vladimir Putin, a Euroweenie, or Jane Fonda would have given if Saltzman & Katz had found Barack has a tummyache and they had to scrounge up some otherLefty who opposed the war. Opposed it not from understanding the facts, weighing all the intelligence, having deep insight into the military or ME foreign policy – all of which were completely void in Obamessiah’s life and brain before his 2002 speech.

What the speech is, is simply something Team Axelrod found and resurrected that sounds real good in hindsight.
It relies on people remaining largely ignorant that people like Hillary, Tom Harkin, John Kerry cast yes votes because they were accountable for theirpositions and votes in a way Obama never would have been if he had guessed wrong. “I didn’t have all the facts, if I had been in Congress and known more, I might have voted differently…”

It relies on people not knowing that the decisions that made Iraq such a clusterfuck by latefall of 2003 rested on decisions made after Obamessiah (and Putin, and Fonda, etc) made his “Speech of Superior Judgment”.

a. Bush being clueless that no plan for Occupation existed, swallowing the neocon bait hook, line, and sinker.
b. The disastrous Bremer decisions in early summer of 2003 making most Ba’athists jobless and then disbanding the entire Sunni military – to stop by at all the ammo and bomb depots Bush’s force left unsecured on theirway back to their neighborhoods.
c. That AQ would see the vacuum and declare it a Central Front, sending almost 20,000 terrorists in to blow people and stuff up.
d. Iran and Syria – in large part because the idiot Bush and the neocons all but declared they were next for “high tech war and super-special special ops soldiers” coming in for “regime change”, decided it was a great idea to support the insurgents and allow Jihadis in to tie down and kill as many American “supersoldiers” as possible and bleed America enough. So that politically, endless wars of adventure to impose Pax Americana and keep Israel free of any enemy lost their appeal, globally and with the US public.
e. That no one knew how utterly fouled up Iraqi society was until we peeled away the dictatorship and saw the Iraqis in all their self-destructive glory.

Obamessiah knew none of this when he gave his little set speech to 60 aging hippies in Hyde Park that borrowed from the talking points that all the mass Euro anti-war protests of the last summer made.

Jul 16, 2008 - 9:17 pm 46. Bob Murphy:

But the Iraqis, or a lot of them have made choices, now. And we gave them the opportunity to.
The real self-destructive glory is so-called Palestinian society and they have rolled in it a lot longer than the Iraqis post-Saddam.

Jul 16, 2008 - 9:55 pm 47. Lifeofthemind:

Wadeusaf,

Can’t see how you can feel I was attempting to “poo-poo” McCain’s experience. Since half of any communication is in the perception of the recipient I’ took a closer look at my piece but I still don’t see anything in your position I disagree with and do not see why my overview of comparative background influences would merit your disagreement. A larger comparative study of prior experience to see what makes for a more successful presidency would be an interesting study.

Jul 16, 2008 - 10:02 pm 48. Gary Rosen:

C-fudd, have you told people here lately how much you idolize the “heart and courage” of the savage barbarians who get their kicks smashing the heads of little Jewish girls against rocks? Please don’t get huffy with me again, I’m just trying to help you teach people more about your values and character.

Jul 16, 2008 - 11:04 pm 49. Bob Murphy:

Jeez,Gary. I thought we finished those turkeys in the black uniforms off for you. Smashed the pissy little hitlerian fascism and pretty uniforms into the dirt very, very thoroughly. I never thought we’d have to spring for Israel because they would have learned the lessons well.
But it seems they have forgotten how to fend for themselves. It only took two generations. How quickly we all forget how to deal with fascism.
And how painful the experience of relearning is.
And maybe this time there will be no time to relearn because there is no comeback to half a dozen Iranian nukes in a little place like Israel.
We sure are living in interesting times.

Jul 16, 2008 - 11:29 pm 50. cedarford:

Rosen is still smarting from the whupping Hezbollah gave the high-tech but low-fighting spirit Israelis.
Maybe your buds will fare better next time around, Rosen…

And I don’t think Hez has ever done any such “smashing little girls heads in” atrocities, unlike the Pal terrorists going after Zionist colonizers in Gaza or the WestBank or Ariel Sharon’s goons rifle-butting refugee children’s heads in at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camp massacres.

Jul 16, 2008 - 11:45 pm 51. Gary Rosen:

You’re well-informed as usual, Fudd, protecting your buddy Samir Kuntar who was regaled as a hero in Lebanon – I’m sure you wish you were there. As for Sabra and Chatilla it’s well-known those atrocities were committed by Christian militias, well-known to everyone but the ignorant drooling liar C-fudd.

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:16 am 52. Bob Murphy:

Jeez,Gary,
It’s true about the South Lebanese Army or whatever they were called, but they were under the influence of their paymasters in Israel.
Is all the other stuff really necessary? I associate that kind of frothing dribble with the moonbat left and their useful idiots.

Jul 17, 2008 - 12:46 am 53. Pajamas Media » John McCain’s Plan for Afghanistan:

[...] Read entire piece here… [...]

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:19 am 54. Peterike:

Obama correctly foresaw the consequences of the biggest foreign policy blunder in American history.

I love this meme. Gets repeated endlessly and no doubt most who hear it swallow it whole. But lemme see, I’m not among the enlightened elite or nuthin’, but somehow I think Roosevelt getting rolled by Stalin into giving up Eastern Europe into his demonic clutches kind of takes the cake.

I’m sure there are many other examples one could site. But I’m groggy still this morning and I have to leave for work.

Then again, considering we’ve pretty much won the war in Iraq now, and with a historical loss of troops that is astonishingly low, less then were lost in single battles in past wars, I guess the bar is now pretty high on “biggest foreign policy blunder.”

Oh yeah, maybe Clinton selling critical military technology to China for campaign contributions.

Jul 17, 2008 - 5:42 am 55. Charles:

Its helpful that moslem terrorists are only one part of the dark side of the present age. The other side is spelled out in this article. Offend a homosexual … Go to prison for 5 years

Jul 17, 2008 - 6:26 am 56. Charles:

For those who don’t care for the WND –here’s the same story in the Catholic News Agency

Jul 17, 2008 - 6:30 am 57. Charles:

Here’s where the sodomy soldiers are at in the USA

Jul 17, 2008 - 6:35 am 58. Gary Rosen:

Bob, you haven’t read much C-fudd, have you? Just as an example, he keeps insisting Obama’s backers are pro-Israel even though they invted *John Mearshimer* (notorious of Walt & Mearshimer’s “Israeli Lobby” book) to one of Obama’s events. In C-fudd’s world everyone with a drop of Jewish blood is a Zionist tool no matter how much of a non-observant self-loather anti-Israel fanatic they are, plus the incessant Bolshevik/ACLU lawyer etc. stuff. I’m not the one who “dribbles froth”.

Jul 17, 2008 - 7:30 am 59. kabud:

It is very unclear McCain’s proposal
and will not add any good to his campaign

With Afghanistan there are two things that can make a difference

1.
Fast switch to a different from oil transportation fuels like methanol and ethanol in USA.

Sooner we achieve this -> less strategic value oil/natural gas will have -> less importance neighboring IRAN and Turkmenistan oil/gas reserves will have.

2.
Change of a drug related policies: possibly legalization of opiates, putting them under governmental control. This may lead to price reduction on heroine and hence Afghanistan opium will not be profitable for Afghan farmers at all

There is one unclear moment here: where is a major market for Afghan opium? I suspect it is Pakistan and India, so it may be more complicated.

But direct military involvement will do nothing if we dont create economical grounds

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:41 am 60. [Análise/opinião] 17 Julho « A Vila de Potemkin:

[...] John McCain on Afghanistan Richard Fernandez, Belmont Club/Pajamas Media [...]

Jul 17, 2008 - 8:56 am 61. saus:

Cedarford, that’s odd since Hezbullah Hero Kuntar smashed a little girls head in, and the Shatilla massacres were carried out by fellow Lebanese, who can tell you all about the Hezbollah or PLO for that matter in a civil war where murdering civilians was a nearly HOURLY EVENT, a war that cost over 100,000 Lebanese civilians actually of Druze, Muslim & Christian sects in fact.. That’s not opinion. You can position yourself anywhere you like, but don’t expect the privilege of re-writing history.

Jul 17, 2008 - 9:23 am 62. Lifeofthemind:

Rosen,
Mearshiemer is not Jewish. Not even a bit. No idea where that rumor comes from.

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:52 am 63. Drive Time Happy Hour » 7-17-08:

[...] Richard Fernandez: John McCain laid out his strategic thinking in the War on Terror in an integrated way, examining in particular the link between the campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan. In describing the situation McCain extends the logic of the Iraq counterinsurgency effort and employs the framework of the “lessons learned” to the global campaign against Islamic extremism.   [...]

Jul 17, 2008 - 10:58 am 64. trangbang68:

Cedarford represents the dark side of paleo-conservatism or moon-batism or whatever cave he crawled out of. I’ve been trying to figure out his roots for awhile. I was thinking he was one of the writers at “Chronicles” magazine, but who knows. Anyone in the West who thinks Israel is the evil empire and not the lone bastion of western civilization in the midst of Barbarians is a moral imbecile in my humble opinion. Of course Pat Buchanan is busy burying any credibility he had trying to revise history’s view of Hitler ;so the Old Right is turning into the New Wrong.

Jul 17, 2008 - 11:05 am 65. Lifeofthemind:

Hate is so addictive. One day neurology will advance to the point where we will be able to understand why there can be anti-Semitism where there are not even any jews present. Clearly some deep human need, going back to tribal hunting survival needs, is hard wired into us. Nothing else can explain the grip of a system so guaranteed to produce economic and moral failure, so obviously derivative from more successful systems in producing productive and well adjusted human beings, and so demonstrably fraudulent in its origins as Islam.

Jul 17, 2008 - 11:31 am 66. slimslowslider:

c4 works like a computer that has a virus. his memory is contantly searching his folder of wrongs and it keeps bring up the jewish file eventhough there are many other files that are in that folder.

It’s actually a way of claiming perfection by blame transference. It can be a powerful
Mechanism, which is used more consciously, then subconsciously thereby making it part of one’s free will. It’s an evil that has been around forever.

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:01 pm 67. Charles:

One day neurology will advance to the point where we will be able to understand why there can be anti-Semitism where there are not even any jews present.
/////////
Typically this is about what people are seeing on the tv. They tend to blame the liberal media. Not to worry. The JDL will come out from Hollywood to demonstrate & file lawsuits against any local anti semites. The anti semites have no chance.

After all, when did you stop beating your wife.

Jul 17, 2008 - 1:03 pm 68. Doug:

Robert “Bob” Einstein, aka Super Dave Osborne,
Albert Lawrence Einstein, aka Albert Brooks,
Cliff and Charles Einstein, all Jews.
Likewise Ben Stiller, Sarah and Laura Silverman,
Adam Sandler, and Jerry Seinfeld.
I could go on, but many of you would still remain in denial of the massive Jewish comedic conspiracy.

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:07 pm 69. cedarford:

Samir Kuntar was a member of a long-dead terror group imprisoned for almost 30 years. Nasrallah added him onto the list knowing that Israel now is politically driven by media and “victim’s families” as well as Orthodox demands for placing the highest priority on “scared burial” – the Zionist nation will do almost anything, including humiliate itself and free convicted murderers – to get a few corpses back.

Since Hez knows that Israel will free high value prisoners, pay large sums of money under the table, and disgrace itself freeing the vilest murderers to get corpses of soldiers back, why not try it if you are Israel’s enemy?

Especially when it enrages almost half the rest of Israelis seeing their government free the worst terrorists to get a few coffins.
Like with the 2006 war Israel blundered on, score another round for Nasrallah.

*****************

And calling Jews to account for their great historical misdeeds, slimslowslider, is no different than holding other races and ethnicities to account for theirs.
And while retribution of the sins of the fathers shall not be visited on their sons in any world religion or code of ethics prevalent these days – neither shall Jews, Germans, Mongols, Muslims or whatever get away with lying about the sins of the fathers.

And Jews lie more than most other groups about their historical atrocities.

***************
Trangbang68 – Of course Pat Buchanan is busy burying any credibility he had trying to revise history’s view of Hitler ;so the Old Right is turning into the New Wrong

Buchanan is a consistent NY Times best selling author, and one of the most widely read Americans in China, Russia, Japan, and Europe on his cultural and historical views.
Jewish critics do not define his popularity, nor diminish the credence his opinions have gained in much of the rest of the world.

Jul 17, 2008 - 3:39 pm 70. sirius_sir:

…the Zionist nation will do almost anything, including humiliate itself and free convicted murderers to get a few corpses back.

Agreed, it doesn’t seem to be a sane or productive policy. A better policy, now that the disproprotionate value placed on Israeli versus enemy soldiers is well established, would be to proceed by logical extension to kill so many (a hundred, two or three?) of the enemy for every Israeli killed or captured and refused release.

Jul 17, 2008 - 7:03 pm 71. MaggieTheCat:

sirius_sir:

I like your logic, but I believe that first they will have to rid themselves of Ohlmert. I just returned from Israel last evening, and everyone I spoke with re Israeli politics, the people on the street, were in agreement.

Jul 17, 2008 - 9:37 pm 72. wGraves:

I too want to take what we learned in Iraq and apply it in Afghanistan. What I learned was to trust General David Petraeus. So why don’t we do that in Afghanistan, too.

Jul 17, 2008 - 11:50 pm 73. Gary Rosen:

“Jewish critics do not define his popularity”

No, the American people did that in 2000. Pat thought he could get 10% of the vote and ride the federal funds gravy train so he used underhanded means to hijack the most significant third party of the last generation. Instead he ended up scrapping for less than 1% of the vote with the kookaboos from the “Natural Law” Party (sounds like something out of an R. Crumb comic).

“nor diminish the credence his opinions have gained in much of the rest of the world.”

Ya mean those places where “Mein Kampf” is a best-seller?

You’re sounding kind of mean-spirited today, Fudd, better bone up on those Dale Carnegie books.

Jul 18, 2008 - 12:07 am 74. Eggplant:

Dla said:

“GWB prosecuted the war in Iraq correctly, trying, failing, learning, changing, trying again and classically beating Al-Qaeda by getting inside their OODA loop.”

History tells us that’s how successful wars are fought.

“Obama understands this too, but he is mentally and politically shackled by the mental midgets controlling his party…. Or I might just have it wrong. Obama might be a liberal loon with a Pelosi/Reid case of liberal dementia.”

B. Hussein is a classic demagogue. The moonbats have been his primary political power base. Hussein will say and do anything to achieve political power but will continue to maintain his current power base until it becomes an embedment to realizing further political power (this may already be the case). Given Hussein’s past, the people he associates with and is married to, it is fair to assume that Hussein’s actual (hidden) political beliefs are very left wing (he has no track record so we can not say this with certainty). However because Hussein is a demagogue, he has no loyalty and will jettsion ideology when ever it impedes his rise to power. Of course, after attaining power there is no reason for him not to revert to old habits and former ideology.

Obviously no politician like Hussein has any business becoming President or even being senator. He’s a very dangerous man and will bring disaster to the nation.

Jul 18, 2008 - 11:04 am 75. Old Blue:

WTF? Here I sat, enjoying some spirited banter about John McCain’s Afghanistan (a subject near and dear to my heart)policy, and suddenly it’s all about Mein Kampf?

BTW, Kuntar did not (wasn’t convicted of) smashing any little girls’ heads. He smashed in a little boys’ head. Either way, I fail to see what the Kuntar trade has to do with McCain’s Afghanistan policy.

I also fail to see why anyone holds what they believe to be a reasonable expectation that a junior senator with two years of experience at the national level would have a coherent strategy for a war that he seems to feel is two separate wars. That’s like expressing that there was a Pacific War and a European War, but WW-II wasn’t one war.

Give the man a break, will ya? Now the Republicans are putting a spider on Obama’s website to track the changes to his foreign policy. I know that this is due to the need to prove him a waffler on the issues of national security, but come on; this part is all new to him, he needs some time to grow. It’s just silly to hold his feet to the fire on those issues.

I don’t think that war policy should be an issue in this election. One guy proved his love and fidelity for his country by not breaking under years of captivity in Viet Nam but that provides no qualification to be president. The other guy is going to need a few years to learn the ropes in the world arena.

Knowing how it’s going to play in Peoria because it’s within the limits of your rather small jurisdiction apparently doesn’t provide an adequate schooling for being the main determinant of foreign policy. It’s unfair, really.

So let’s take that off the table completely, shall we?

That being said, wasn’t there a Nazi around here who was insulting the hell out of one of our other members? Let’s get back to that. Somebody should find an article about it and start a new discussion, though. That way there won’t be any others like myself who find themselves scratching their heads and wondering if we’re ever going to get to Pismo Beach.

Jul 18, 2008 - 1:44 pm 76. sirius_sir:

Old Blue, I have been willing to give Senator Obama the benefit of a good deal of patience. But it is he who persists in framing the contest in terms of judgment, not an inconsequential consideration in that the office he seeks will be all about decisions made going forward. The judgment employed then is all that will matter.

Was he right initially about Iraq? Maybe. Was he right about opposing the Surge? No, but conveniently he leaves that failure of judgment off the resume. Is he right now in as much pledging to abandon the country and all the gains made at such cost and endangering our efforts elsewhere? Not by my reckoning. And if he’s too ideologically blinded or immature to change his mind on an issue so critical to us and so many others, then I submit he isn’t ready to be President.

On the other hand, Obama can do himself and the country a big favor by going to Iraq with an open mind and actually listening to people who actually know a thing or two more than he does.

Or he can pretend and act as though he already knows better. But if he persists in doing so and expects me to applaud his good judgment then he’s got another thing coming.

Jul 18, 2008 - 4:06 pm 77. nichevo:

(BetteLu Saltzman nee Kutznik)

This is at the heart of C4’s dread. Meeting every century in a cemetary in Prague and controlling the affairs of the world – that’s one thing, that’s a serious matter, of course. But making mock of a married woman’s name?

For one thing, is one name more Jewish in his ears than the other? What is a conventional married woman to do? Is the combination of the two supposed to be hypnotic?

For another, BetteLu. That’s no Sasha or Dvora, that’s pretty much all-American-assimilated sounding by birth. So it’s not cultural necessarily. Or does it take so deeply?

For a third, who knows who this woman is and who cares. Did she bomb a school or something? Does she control BHO? Is that really a portrait of her, and not OBL, on the recent New Yorker cover?

If not, the notion that this is important enough in C4’s mind to devote space to – to dwell on, even to harp on – in his analysis, the idea that making his targets and their associations all nice and Jewishy-sounding will make his comments more persuasive or expressive, speaks to a superficiality of mind, a shallowness of perception and reasoning, that detracts from the respect which I am able to accord some of his loftier flights.

C4 is occasionally capable of reasoning that seems to parallel mine. In these cases I worry about myself, but really I figure C4 is only mad north-north-west or so. His intellect is thus retarded by these beliefs, and he would do better to disbelieve himself of them.

Someone was speaking of root causes of behavior, above – we always are, neh? – and I often wonder what is the spark of the flame that burns inside him. Was it a family upbringing or was he driven to these beliefs through his own experience?

C4, I try to avoid base notions of the roots of your conduct, but your slant on things is perfectly inexplicable by my perception of reality. Some explanation would perhaps not go amiss. I’m sure you have the expressive and forthright words at your command to make yourself even clearer than you seem to be.

In other words, what is wrong with me? Can I fix it? You have allowed at times that there are some Jews who may be allowed to exist and perhaps prosper under your rule. Could you describe your notion of a Good Jew?

Because it is important to please you; anyone not in agreement with your views or, apparently, standards of breed stock, is evidently bound for the chief torment of whatever religion (or tribal blood-creed if pagan) that you favor, after a grisly and well-deserved death if at all possible.

More importantly for purposes of discussion, it imposes a rhetorical cramp in your style and in mine. When apparently no Jews can be either believed or trusted except as it suits you, whether your basis is of precisely which mix of racialist, religious and/or other forms of distributed conspiracy it is that you follow, how are we even to be entertained by you in debate unless we understand exactly what it is that suits you.

You know, so we can straighten up and fly right.

Or at least not set you up on these repetitive and demeaning tirades. Every one is a few minutes of my life I’ll never get back. Like I said before, I generally cut out of your posts at the first use of the word “Jew.” But also as I said, if it contains none, you have a better chance of saying something.

Jul 18, 2008 - 5:08 pm 78. Reverend Jeremia Wright:

–Chill is probably just some troll that swiped the words of a nincompoop, surrounded them with two paragraphs of his own, and no doubt squealed with girlish delight at how clever he was.

Or maybe he is the editor himself. Nice to have a member of the professional media here at the site!!!

Jul 19, 2008 - 5:55 am 79. Reverend Jeremia Wright:

—I don’t think that war policy should be an issue in this election. One guy proved his love and fidelity for his country by not breaking under years of captivity in Viet Nam but that provides no qualification to be president. The other guy is going to need a few years to learn the ropes in the world arena.–

The other guy proved his dislike for his country and fidelity to international marxism by sitting in my church for 20 years while I said “God-damn Amerikka” and “the CIA invented AIDS to kill black people” and “America needs to be punished for Hiroshima”.

So we should look forward to one of our cities being nuked by a renewed islamic terrorist organization while Obambi “learns the ropes”. Wow, what a statement. Maybe McCain can use this as an ad.

Jul 19, 2008 - 6:03 am 80. Wadeusaf:

Lifeofthemind:

Can’t see how you can feel I was attempting to “poo-poo” McCain’s experience. Since half of any communication is in the perception of the recipient I’ took a closer look at my piece but I still don’t see anything in your position I disagree with and do not see why my overview of comparative background influences would merit your disagreement. A larger comparative study of prior experience to see what makes for a more successful presidency would be an interesting study…

It was the idea that running a squadron was just “government” experience. The nature and experience associated with daily operation of a military post, while GI at heart, certainly presents problems that are more like operating a business or city government. And it isn’t only McCain’s experience. There are a lot of young officers today that are getting a healthy dose of civil administration and practical problem solving in areas many large company CEO’s and most of our state and local executives do not come close to appreciating. Not a disagreement, so much as a point of information.

Jul 19, 2008 - 9:00 am 81. Wadeusaf:

“BTW, Kuntar did not (wasn’t convicted of) smashing any little girls’ heads. He smashed in a little boys’ head. Either way, I fail to see what the Kuntar trade has to do with McCain’s Afghanistan policy.”

I don’t know if the Pacific war was informed by the European Theater but perhaps the struggle in Palestine might be structured by tactical approaches improvised in the Mountains of Afghanistan or the alleys of Peoria… Just a thought, I know it isn’t fair. But how is Barak supposed to compete unless certain debate items are…, you know…, Quashed? You are certainly right about that NAZI.

But IMO, you should save the sarcasm for more appropriate target. As is the frustration of every former member of the military, democratic government is a rather messy affair.

Jul 19, 2008 - 10:02 am 82. Gary Rosen:

No it *was* a little girl. Not that it makes a difference to C-fudd, who glorifies the murderer either way.

Jul 19, 2008 - 11:14 am 83. Zenster:

chill: : If you vote for a Republican for the President, you will only get more wars …

In light of how the coming decades of war with Islam will only be foreshortened by complete nuclear annihilation of the MME (Muslim Middle East), “more wars” seems to fill the bill. Any candidate who is not serious about snapping Islam’s spine like a dry twig has no place in the White House.

Old Blue: BTW, Kuntar did not (wasn’t convicted of) smashing any little girls’ heads. He smashed in a little boys’ head.

You’re off your normally decent stride, Old Blue.

As police began to arrive, the terrorists took Danny and Einat down to the beach. There, according to eyewitnesses, one of them shot Danny in front of Einat so that his death would be the last sight she would ever see. Then he smashed my little girl’s skull in against a rock with his rifle butt. That terrorist was Samir Kuntar.

When the cell, retreating as security forces pursued them, found the rubber boat they’d arrived in disabled by gunfire, one of the members shot Smadar’s husband Danny in the back and drowned him in the sea to ensure he was dead. Next, he smashed little Einat’s head on beach rocks and crushed her skull with the butt of his rifle.

Smadar Haran-Kaiser was in that building, with her husband and daughters, aged 5 and 2. As Kuntar raged through the building, searching for people to be kidnapped for use as exchange for Lebanese prisoners, Haran-Kaiser hid in a crawl space with her 2-year-old. Her husband and older daughter tried to flee. Israeli reports indicate Kuntar shot the husband in the head and smashed the girl’s skull.

Kuntar shot Danny Haran at close-range and threw his body into the sea to make sure he died. He then bashed Einat’s head on rocks and with butt of his rifle, killing her instantly.

Jul 20, 2008 - 9:48 am 84. Obama's nation building - US Message Board:

[...] of the cardinal mistake of leaving an operation half-finished in order to begin a new one. Belmont Club John McCain on Afghanistan And McCain promises to broaden the war, but look at the bright side … he is going to appoint a [...]

Jul 21, 2008 - 6:08 pm 85. Grumpy:

It very important to realize that Iraq is NOT Afghanistan. “Surging” troops in Afghanistan is exactly the wrong COA. We must pull out all uniformed soldiers from Afghanistan. Our footprint needs to return to near zero. Afghans will continue to fight foreign soldiers regardless of the conditions or the probability of success. Afghans do not tolerate FID or any other COIN methods that worked in Iraq or the Philippines or any other method. The best that can be done is to under-the-carpet support the government and then get the hell out. And, if they become a terror haven, go back in and do it again. Nothing else is feasible.

Jul 21, 2008 - 10:17 pm 86. Old Blue:

Okay, I stand corrected on the child killing. I apologize, but I was having a problem with how this conversation turned to Antisemitism and Kuntar.

Grumpy, I disagree. The Afghans require a lot of patience and the minimalization of foreign forces as soon as feasible, but not their removal. The biggest fear of the Afghans that I worked with was that we would Viet Nam them and leave in the middle of it before they had a chance to really establish the rule of law.

Afghans are not some bizarre incomprehensible creatures. They have a certain history, and an innate distrust of the intentions of foreigners, but they can see helpfulness and respect and be swayed by it, just like anyone else.

Here’s a kick in the pants; the Mongolians are helping to train the Afghan artillerymen on the D-30 guns. Whoda thunk that the descendants of Genghis Khan would ever we welcomed back with open arms?

I’ve seen COIN work on the ground in Afghanistan. Afghans require patience, but they are not incorrigible.

Jul 22, 2008 - 3:55 pm 87. Zenster:

Old Blue: Okay, I stand corrected on the child killing. I apologize, but I was having a problem with how this conversation turned to Antisemitism and Kuntar.

You can thank Ceaderford in part and probably a degree of overall collective outrage in general about Olmert’s spineless release of Kuntar in trade for a couple more Israeli corpses. Few greater moral and propaganda victories could have been delivered to Hezbollah gift-wrapped on a silver platter like the release of Kuntar.

Jul 23, 2008 - 10:16 am 88. Johnny Lowtaxes:

Nice discussion of strategy. Who’s going to pay for all of this?

Sep 16, 2008 - 8:31 pm

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