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	<title>Comments on: Drums in the deep</title>
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		<title>By: The WebElf Report &#171; The WebElf Report</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9354</link>
		<dc:creator>The WebElf Report &#171; The WebElf Report</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 16:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9354</guid>
		<description>[...] DRUMS in the deep &#8230;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] DRUMS in the deep &#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Timber Walrus</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9323</link>
		<dc:creator>Timber Walrus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 02:07:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The depth, scope and wit of the dialogue on this web site gives me great hope in the power of our system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The depth, scope and wit of the dialogue on this web site gives me great hope in the power of our system.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9284</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 21:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9284</guid>
		<description>Apparently this didn&#039;t work the first time. Let&#039;s try this again...

MOSCOW — Russian commanders said Wednesday they were growing alarmed at the number of NATO warships sailing into the Black Sea, conceding that NATO vessels now outnumbered the ships in their fleet anchored off the western coast of Georgia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/28/world/europe/28russia.html?em</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently this didn&#8217;t work the first time. Let&#8217;s try this again&#8230;</p>
<p>MOSCOW — Russian commanders said Wednesday they were growing alarmed at the number of NATO warships sailing into the Black Sea, conceding that NATO vessels now outnumbered the ships in their fleet anchored off the western coast of Georgia.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/28/world/europe/28russia.html?em" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/28/world/europe/28russia.html?em</a></p>
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		<title>By: Al_Batross</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9254</link>
		<dc:creator>Al_Batross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 18:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9254</guid>
		<description>&quot;Civilization has forgotten what it is like to eat its pets from hunger&quot; - wretchard.

It has also forgotten what it is like to eat its neighbours from hunger, but history suggests that in a crisis that is something which can be remembered all too quickly.

&quot;History is supposed to protect us from forgetfulness; curb arrogance; guard against complacency&quot; - wretchard.

So right, and so well expressed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Civilization has forgotten what it is like to eat its pets from hunger&#8221; &#8211; wretchard.</p>
<p>It has also forgotten what it is like to eat its neighbours from hunger, but history suggests that in a crisis that is something which can be remembered all too quickly.</p>
<p>&#8220;History is supposed to protect us from forgetfulness; curb arrogance; guard against complacency&#8221; &#8211; wretchard.</p>
<p>So right, and so well expressed.</p>
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		<title>By: Cincinnatus</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9226</link>
		<dc:creator>Cincinnatus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9226</guid>
		<description>&quot;The partisans of the left have always hated the military and sought to cut the resources devoted to it. Why? Their vision of a society after the Revolution is actually highly militarized in a Stalinist fashion and the military itself in America is no direct political threat since it submits to civilian authority.&quot;

They hate the military, think of them as thugs and hillbillies.  But they have a tiny nagging doubt that the US Army is overall a noble force that promotes stability.  And if the US saves the lives of 100,000 tsunami victims, oh, look the other way.
It turns out the &quot;Reality Based Community&quot; wishes their own personal reality is spread to the rest of us.  Why should someone admit they&#039;re wrong when they can hope the situation eventually resembles the perception?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The partisans of the left have always hated the military and sought to cut the resources devoted to it. Why? Their vision of a society after the Revolution is actually highly militarized in a Stalinist fashion and the military itself in America is no direct political threat since it submits to civilian authority.&#8221;</p>
<p>They hate the military, think of them as thugs and hillbillies.  But they have a tiny nagging doubt that the US Army is overall a noble force that promotes stability.  And if the US saves the lives of 100,000 tsunami victims, oh, look the other way.<br />
It turns out the &#8220;Reality Based Community&#8221; wishes their own personal reality is spread to the rest of us.  Why should someone admit they&#8217;re wrong when they can hope the situation eventually resembles the perception?</p>
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		<title>By: cedarford</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9095</link>
		<dc:creator>cedarford</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9095</guid>
		<description>Neolex &lt;i&gt;Counterintuitively, and contrary to the claims of antisemites like c4, Israel actually advised US privately about the danger of removing Saddam, Israeli intelligence was right to conclude that such an action would put Israel on collission course with Iran.&lt;/i&gt;

It is not surprising that the Jew &quot;neolex&quot;   would lie to rehabilitate Israel&#039;s hawkish urging of the US to strike Iraq by saying that privately, they didn&#039;t believe what Sharon and Likud were publically demanding.

The problem for lying Jews trying to rewrite the historical narrative is the public record of actions beginning with Feith&amp;his neocons writing &quot;Clean Break&quot; for the Israeli Government urging Iraq regime change, Israel and it&#039;s lobby&#039;s work in getting Clinton to make deposing Saddam formal US policy in 1998, and their constant drumbeat for war with Iraq immediately after 9/11 in hundreds of official statements on the record &quot;to end the terrible threat of Iraq as the center of terror and vast WMD stockpiles ready to use against America and Israel.&quot;

From Aug 16, 2002:

&lt;i&gt;Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq&#039;s Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday. 

Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons, said Sharon aide Ranaan Gissin. 

&quot;Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose,&quot; Gissin said. &quot;It will only give him (Saddam) more of an opportunity to accelerate his program of weapons of mass destruction.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

That is just one of tens of thousands of documents on the public record nailing the Zionist boosting of the war.  

All the lies in the world will not change the fact that the Israeli government was gung-ho on the Iraq war and working hard to pressure liberal Jews in the US Congress and media to vote and cheerlead for &quot;Bush&#039;s next Great Step to eliminate the Islamic threat&quot;.

It&#039;s actually a little insulting that so many Jews like neolex think the Goys are dense enough and so deterred by feckless charges of anti-Semitism if they dare dispute the present Likud line - that they will swallow or fearfully accept their lies meant to rehab Israel and US Zionists and neocons after the Iraq war went so putrid and cost us 30,000 casualties, wrecked much of America&#039;s reputation, and put us 2 trillion in hock to our true strategic rivals.

To be sure, the lies work on some guillable conservatives, particularly uneducated Christian Zionists like &quot;Fred&quot;.

And, to be sure, the statues of Saddam had barely begun toppling when the necons and Zionists began their marketing strategy for pushing 3 new wars on the Golem of America to take on. There was Syria. A proposed invasion of Lebanon to &quot;find the vast hidden stockpiles of Iraqi WMD now buried in the Bekaa Valley and now in control of Evildoers&quot;.

Then - after a few months to realize Iraq was not the calewalk they promised - the Israelis and the Neocons then dropped the &quot;Onto Syria and Lebanon, Americans, to die for Democracy!!&quot; talk to then tout the unintimidated Iran as the &quot;gravest threat ever&quot;. About the time the Israelis were &quot;shocked&quot; that Mossad had the WMD story so wrong and it was actually Iranian WMD that menaced ALL of Civilization...

But due credit on your narrative of lies, Neolex, because it has suckered in some to believe in endless American war...just as long as there is no tax sacrifice expected, no Draft. and they continue to believe that &quot;exciting high tech weapons&quot; make other wars the cakewalk promised in Iraq...
===================

Buddy Larsen - &lt;i&gt;Not to sideline the thread, but C4, if DoD wanted a draft, wouldn’t DoD say so?&lt;/i&gt;

Nope. Because you have to remember that the Pentagon is under civilian leadership of political appointees, and brass well know that to raise politically damaging facts in public that called for embarassing policy changes -  that rebutted folks like Bush, Rumsfeld, and Feith can be career-limiting, as more than one officer like Shineseki found out.
A larger military ran directly against Bush&#039;s determination to give massive tax cuts to his wealthy donors - it put that in jeopardy - and was unacceptable. 

That is why Bush didn&#039;t even try to boost military volunteerism let alone raise the 3rd Rail of The Draft resuming after 9/11 in what he called the &quot;Defining Danger and Call to America to Rise to Duty, of our Lifetimes&quot;.

You remember, back in the days when neocon syncophants were smootching his butt as &quot;The American Churchill&quot; facing &quot;Munichs&quot; in 7-8 countries he must &quot;unleash the high tech forces of liberation and democracy-nurturing&quot; on.
 
Thus the Draft can only be discussed by 
serving military at the margins - that our reservists eligibility is now crippled by overuse and our active duty military is limited to only about 40,000 front line combat troops being put in the field (with a &quot;tail&quot; of 80,000 non-combat support troops inthe field with them) on a sustained basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neolex <i>Counterintuitively, and contrary to the claims of antisemites like c4, Israel actually advised US privately about the danger of removing Saddam, Israeli intelligence was right to conclude that such an action would put Israel on collission course with Iran.</i></p>
<p>It is not surprising that the Jew &#8220;neolex&#8221;   would lie to rehabilitate Israel&#8217;s hawkish urging of the US to strike Iraq by saying that privately, they didn&#8217;t believe what Sharon and Likud were publically demanding.</p>
<p>The problem for lying Jews trying to rewrite the historical narrative is the public record of actions beginning with Feith&amp;his neocons writing &#8220;Clean Break&#8221; for the Israeli Government urging Iraq regime change, Israel and it&#8217;s lobby&#8217;s work in getting Clinton to make deposing Saddam formal US policy in 1998, and their constant drumbeat for war with Iraq immediately after 9/11 in hundreds of official statements on the record &#8220;to end the terrible threat of Iraq as the center of terror and vast WMD stockpiles ready to use against America and Israel.&#8221;</p>
<p>From Aug 16, 2002:</p>
<p><i>Israel is urging U.S. officials not to delay a military strike against Iraq&#8217;s Saddam Hussein, an aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Friday. </p>
<p>Israeli intelligence officials have gathered evidence that Iraq is speeding up efforts to produce biological and chemical weapons, said Sharon aide Ranaan Gissin. </p>
<p>&#8220;Any postponement of an attack on Iraq at this stage will serve no purpose,&#8221; Gissin said. &#8220;It will only give him (Saddam) more of an opportunity to accelerate his program of weapons of mass destruction.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>That is just one of tens of thousands of documents on the public record nailing the Zionist boosting of the war.  </p>
<p>All the lies in the world will not change the fact that the Israeli government was gung-ho on the Iraq war and working hard to pressure liberal Jews in the US Congress and media to vote and cheerlead for &#8220;Bush&#8217;s next Great Step to eliminate the Islamic threat&#8221;.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s actually a little insulting that so many Jews like neolex think the Goys are dense enough and so deterred by feckless charges of anti-Semitism if they dare dispute the present Likud line &#8211; that they will swallow or fearfully accept their lies meant to rehab Israel and US Zionists and neocons after the Iraq war went so putrid and cost us 30,000 casualties, wrecked much of America&#8217;s reputation, and put us 2 trillion in hock to our true strategic rivals.</p>
<p>To be sure, the lies work on some guillable conservatives, particularly uneducated Christian Zionists like &#8220;Fred&#8221;.</p>
<p>And, to be sure, the statues of Saddam had barely begun toppling when the necons and Zionists began their marketing strategy for pushing 3 new wars on the Golem of America to take on. There was Syria. A proposed invasion of Lebanon to &#8220;find the vast hidden stockpiles of Iraqi WMD now buried in the Bekaa Valley and now in control of Evildoers&#8221;.</p>
<p>Then &#8211; after a few months to realize Iraq was not the calewalk they promised &#8211; the Israelis and the Neocons then dropped the &#8220;Onto Syria and Lebanon, Americans, to die for Democracy!!&#8221; talk to then tout the unintimidated Iran as the &#8220;gravest threat ever&#8221;. About the time the Israelis were &#8220;shocked&#8221; that Mossad had the WMD story so wrong and it was actually Iranian WMD that menaced ALL of Civilization&#8230;</p>
<p>But due credit on your narrative of lies, Neolex, because it has suckered in some to believe in endless American war&#8230;just as long as there is no tax sacrifice expected, no Draft. and they continue to believe that &#8220;exciting high tech weapons&#8221; make other wars the cakewalk promised in Iraq&#8230;<br />
===================</p>
<p>Buddy Larsen &#8211; <i>Not to sideline the thread, but C4, if DoD wanted a draft, wouldn’t DoD say so?</i></p>
<p>Nope. Because you have to remember that the Pentagon is under civilian leadership of political appointees, and brass well know that to raise politically damaging facts in public that called for embarassing policy changes &#8211;  that rebutted folks like Bush, Rumsfeld, and Feith can be career-limiting, as more than one officer like Shineseki found out.<br />
A larger military ran directly against Bush&#8217;s determination to give massive tax cuts to his wealthy donors &#8211; it put that in jeopardy &#8211; and was unacceptable. </p>
<p>That is why Bush didn&#8217;t even try to boost military volunteerism let alone raise the 3rd Rail of The Draft resuming after 9/11 in what he called the &#8220;Defining Danger and Call to America to Rise to Duty, of our Lifetimes&#8221;.</p>
<p>You remember, back in the days when neocon syncophants were smootching his butt as &#8220;The American Churchill&#8221; facing &#8220;Munichs&#8221; in 7-8 countries he must &#8220;unleash the high tech forces of liberation and democracy-nurturing&#8221; on.</p>
<p>Thus the Draft can only be discussed by<br />
serving military at the margins &#8211; that our reservists eligibility is now crippled by overuse and our active duty military is limited to only about 40,000 front line combat troops being put in the field (with a &#8220;tail&#8221; of 80,000 non-combat support troops inthe field with them) on a sustained basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Lifeofthemind</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9068</link>
		<dc:creator>Lifeofthemind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 22:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9068</guid>
		<description>@bobal,
Maybe or it might be the more practical reason that the Chinese scare them, invaded them and are currently forcibly occupying valuable disputed reefs in the South China Sea. The Chinese do not believe in sharing. For everyone except the Mexicans and Canadians the US is a distant power with a good reputation for how we conduct ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@bobal,<br />
Maybe or it might be the more practical reason that the Chinese scare them, invaded them and are currently forcibly occupying valuable disputed reefs in the South China Sea. The Chinese do not believe in sharing. For everyone except the Mexicans and Canadians the US is a distant power with a good reputation for how we conduct ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: bobal</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9064</link>
		<dc:creator>bobal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9064</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Do you know the Vietnamese offered to rent Cam Ranh Bay back to us?&lt;/i&gt;

Missed that, but can easily believe it. The Vietnamese, like the Japanese, don&#039;t hold much of a grudge. In Vietnam it&#039;s the Buddhist influence. Mutual arising, enemies arise, then fall away. Also, they see us as just the latest in a long line of occupiers, Chinese, French, Japanese, Frnech again, last opf all, USA.

I imagine Japan could nuke up in a matter of months, if not weeks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Do you know the Vietnamese offered to rent Cam Ranh Bay back to us?</i></p>
<p>Missed that, but can easily believe it. The Vietnamese, like the Japanese, don&#8217;t hold much of a grudge. In Vietnam it&#8217;s the Buddhist influence. Mutual arising, enemies arise, then fall away. Also, they see us as just the latest in a long line of occupiers, Chinese, French, Japanese, Frnech again, last opf all, USA.</p>
<p>I imagine Japan could nuke up in a matter of months, if not weeks.</p>
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		<title>By: fedya</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9061</link>
		<dc:creator>fedya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9061</guid>
		<description>@Lifeofthemind:
&lt;i&gt;So what is to be done with Pakistan?&lt;/i&gt;

I would suggest that thinking about dealing piecemeal with pieces of Pakistan is not of a piece with pacification of anything or anyone anywhere at any time. 

If real admirals must deal with logistics chains, should not we armchair admirals address our contingency chains?

[true confession: I was wondering the same thing, man]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Lifeofthemind:<br />
<i>So what is to be done with Pakistan?</i></p>
<p>I would suggest that thinking about dealing piecemeal with pieces of Pakistan is not of a piece with pacification of anything or anyone anywhere at any time. </p>
<p>If real admirals must deal with logistics chains, should not we armchair admirals address our contingency chains?</p>
<p>[true confession: I was wondering the same thing, man]</p>
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		<title>By: Lifeofthemind</title>
		<link>http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/comment-page-2/#comment-9059</link>
		<dc:creator>Lifeofthemind</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Aug 2008 21:47:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/26/drums-in-the-deep/#comment-9059</guid>
		<description>BTW, some thing very like my idea was championed for years by the Soviets during the 1960s - 70s in order to scare then US allies Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Seems only fair to consider using the KGBs own plan against them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, some thing very like my idea was championed for years by the Soviets during the 1960s &#8211; 70s in order to scare then US allies Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Seems only fair to consider using the KGBs own plan against them.</p>
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