With Iraq fast vanishing from the headlines, Georgia has become a political issue. It’s outbreak has implicity helped John McCain because it highlighted Barack Obama’s lack of foreign policy experience, as shown for example, by this ad. Putin, perhaps realizing this, is now trying to blame the Republicans. One of the great traditions established by Vietnam is that foreign dictators get to take sides in US electoral politics. CNN reports:
“Putin told CNN his defense officials had told him it was done to benefit a presidential candidate — Republican John McCain and Democrat Barack Obama are competing to succeed George W. Bush — although he presented no evidence to back it up.”
Putin’s opinion isn’t shared by everyone. The WSJ, for example has its own assessment of who started the war in Georgia. But Russian attempts to enter the domestic US political fray were offset by disappointment from the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, through which Beijing partly pursues its Central Asian policy. The AP reports that “China and several Central Asian nations rebuffed Russia’s hopes of international support for its actions in Georgia, issuing a statement Thursday denouncing the use of force and calling for respect for every country’s territorial integrity.” While the UN has been paralyzed and gridlocked by the Georgia crisis, more specific international alliances like NATO and the Shanghai Cooperation Council have been able to act, at least in some way. Obama’s August 2007 threat to unilaterally send military forces into Pakistan (which was referred to in the McCain ad) would probably draw a reaction from China (if only because Pakistan is an observer in the Shanghai Cooperation Council). Politics no longer stops at the water’s edge. Foreign leaders now routinely calculate their impact on US domestic politics. While the loss of complete political autonomy is probably a consequence of America’s global role, Obama’s own peroration in Berlin has come as close as anything to recognizing foreign constituencies in the calculation of domestic political issues.
This development is not confined to America. Just now the Guardian reports that Hugo Chavez has hired former London Mayor “Red” Ken Livingstone to act as his consultant on urban affairs. First Post (ht Fausta) quotes Livingstone as saying:
“I believe that Caracas will become a first-world city in 20 years,” Livingstone told reporters on a surprise visit to Venezuela. “I have a very extensive network of contacts both domestically and internationally which I will be calling on to assist in this.”
And former German Chanceller Gerhard Schroeder was hired as a consultant to Gazprom in 2005. The Wapo said at the time,
Opposition politicians denounced the appointment as a conflict of interest. “It stinks,” said Reinhard Buetikofer, co-chairman of Germany’s Greens, who were a coalition partner in Schroeder’s Social Democrat-led government, the Associated Press reported.
But if politicians are supposed to represent “the world” and the “tapestry” of humanity then such arrangements will become increasingly common. Fausta has more here.
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128 Comments
1. Greg:Putin just keeps over-extending, doesn’t he.
Aug 28, 2008 - 12:24 pm 2. DanM:2 Choices here.. Truth or obfuscation.
Truth? – Possibly, if you believe in the ability or willingness of a State department or CIA functionary to carry it out….
Obfuscation – Putin? THAT I believe.
Aug 28, 2008 - 12:25 pm 3. neolex:Interesting article about Russia and the SOC.
http://en.novayagazeta.ru/data/2008/61/00.html
Aug 28, 2008 - 12:28 pm 4. outa my league:Wasn’t it Buddy that had the nightmare that prior to the election Putin would invite Oman for talks, and then back down the Cossacks just a tad for O’s benefit? If so, this latest jibe fits the scenario.
Aug 28, 2008 - 12:35 pm 5. Lifeofthemind:Putin didn’t learn some basic lessons about American politics in his old job. To his misfortune he was stationed in Dresden, the only city in the DDR with no access to Western TV. He would have learned more about how American’s related to the “Captive Nations” if he had been in Berlin or even better Poland. The most left wing elements in America are those with the least connection to former Soviet dominated territories. The partisans of Obama are Moslems, some Hispanics, Blacks and a very isolated and self absorbed elite. These are communities that share some enemies with Putin, specifically Israel, but basicly they do not care. They are in fact unsophisticated even when they are the wealthy white elite. They do not communicate to Putin how motivated large masses in America are to support nations that Putin threatens. Even groups that may have grievances against each other, Poles, Ukrainians, Jews, Slovaks etc., are pulling together. These were the base of the old Democratic Party. Putin’s trick of handing out passports and exploiting a local minority can not work a second time. The alarm has already sounded.
Aug 28, 2008 - 12:52 pm 6. Wendy:My husband commented to me when the conflict started that the US orchestrated it and that it was Bush’s gift to McCain. I told him that was ridiculous but now I’m not so sure. My husband has his PhD in US History and he’s a pretty smart guy.
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:18 pm 7. gumshoe:Buddy @
“Naaah. if that were the case, there wouldn’t be a Wiki on the Verona Project. oops –there isn’t.”
Aug 27, 2008 – 11:09 pm
on “The Wrong Man,Sir” thread…
try the other spelling:
“Venona project” –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
Note: not a vote for wiki’s integrity…as always,caveat emptor.
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:21 pm 8. basbille:why do i believe this is completely plausible? recent history i suppose. the plethora of “mistruths” that have originated in the bush white house have made us all much less trusting. sad perhaps … but indeed true.
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:31 pm 9. Kingston53:Sadly, the American? media is more than willing to give Putin full and uncritical access to spew his propaganda. Question, are Wendy and basbille justs dupes or on the payroll?
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:44 pm 10. DanM:“plethora of “mistruths”
What makes you think you, or the masses, know – or deserve to know, what the government or military need to know? A completely open government and military intelligence system would perhaps deliver that.. For the 2 minutes that it continued to remain in existence…
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:44 pm 11. RattlerGator:I guess you should be flattered, Wretchard, and congratulations are called for. The far left (and the Russians) must be afraid of you or something because we’re seeing much more of them on the board. Watch your back, my man. Never know when you’ll vicariously become part of the near abroad and somehow offend the insecure.
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:47 pm 12. fedya:@Wendy:
My husband has his PhD in US History and he’s a pretty smart guy.
Given the uncritical intellectual fads that seem to be typical of “Higher” Education, not to mention widespread Marxism, PoMo “truth is what we reimagine it to be”, and endorsement of bizarre conspiracy theories, should you not have written,
“In spite of the fact that he has a PhD in [---], my husband is a pretty smart guy”?
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:49 pm 13. Doug:Lifeofthemind said,
“Putin didn’t learn some basic lessons about American politics in his old job. To his misfortune he was stationed in Dresden, the only city in the DDR with no access to Western TV.”
—
But he’ll be fully prepped for “free speech” in Amerika after The Messiah Takes Charge:
Obama’s e-mail about WGN-AM
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:53 pm 14. Kenneth:Text of the e-mail the Obama campaign sent to supporters:
Reads like they’ve hired the KOS Kids as Writers
China doesn’t want to set a precedent for legitimizing “break-away” independent states since, like the USSR, they are a nation built on cobbling ethnic regions together through brutal imperialism. And then there’s Taiwan…
I doubt if Obama is stupid enough to use Putin’s propaganda against McCain, but here’s hoping he or a surrogate will.
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:54 pm 15. Brock:“Politics no longer stops at the water’s edge. Foreign leaders now routinely calculate their impact on US domestic politics.”
Would the FEC consider this an “in kind” contribution? For who?
Aug 28, 2008 - 1:56 pm 16. 74:Sheesh. What is this automatic knee-jerk reaction to see a conspiracy in anything having to do with Bush. If you think the U.S. started this please read this article first:
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0820mt.html
The Russions have never stopped playing the “Great Game”, while we were never in it. Has it occurred to anyone that the Russians might have kicked the operation off at this time precisely because the U.S. is distracted by our own elections?
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:04 pm 17. 74:Oops, Wrong link on the above comment. Try this one, but alas – no permalink.
http://michaeltotten.com/
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:06 pm 18. Doug:I linked the wrong Kurtz article, comments here are interesting.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:06 pm 19. Joseph Somsel:Obama campaign confronts WGN radio
Russia’s new aggressiveness got me thinking so I cranked out this AmericanThinker piece that I promised my fellow Wretchard commenters a few threads ago:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/08/sticking_it_to_gazprom.html
Doesn’t have any acute or tactical remedy but it took a long time for the Russian “gas weapon” to get strength and it will take a decade at least before we can blunt it.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:18 pm 20. Brian H:74;
Here’s the permalink:
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/2008/08/the-truth-about-1.php
Here’s a snippet:
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:20 pm 21. DanM:“Virtually everyone is wrong. Georgia didn’t start it on August 7, nor on any other date. The South Ossetian militia started it on August 6 when its fighters fired on Georgian peacekeepers and Georgian villages with weapons banned by the agreement hammered out between the two sides in 1994. At the same time, the Russian military sent its invasion force bearing down on Georgia from the north side of the Caucasus Mountains on the Russian side of the border through the Roki tunnel and into Georgia. This happened before Saakashvili sent additional troops to South Ossetia and allegedly started the war. “
How to Demoralize a Nation
Listen to this, please.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:27 pm 22. Cas:The fundamental fact remains that the Russian army and amphib units which were engaged in the invasion of Georgia had to be on alert and ready to go when the supposed ‘American provocation’ of the Ossetia-incident was to have occurred.
Army units don’t move on 15 minutes orders. Amphib operations, less so. Armored columns with supply and logistics in tow with an order of march and battle? Forget it.
What Putin claims is on its face impossible. The Russian Army was ready to go. The Georgian Army had to mobilize (not the other way around).
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:31 pm 23. geoffb:“One of the great traditions established by Vietnam is that foreign dictators get to take sides in US electoral politics. “
I think that the word sides should be singular since the foreign dictators (thugs to me, less romantic sounding) always seem to be on the same side in our elections. The side of the “Thugs ‘R Us” party.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:35 pm 24. wretchard:One of the basic principles of power politics is that when the correlation of forces within a given political setting no longer favors you, you change the the constituency. You can see this process in action. Illegal aliens become undocumented people. Soon they become undocumented Americans. The responsibilities of the state are no longer confined to its citizens. The USN must take the welfare of sea creatures into account when testing sonar; consumers in the West are supposed to consider water quality in China when deciding whether to take that “climate criminal” holiday or fill up that “obscene” car.
Little by little the world becomes divided not into nations, but into an international class of the enlightened and the beautiful on the one hand and the brutish and Bible-clinging on the other.
I’m not saying that all of this cosmopolitanism is bad. Rabid nationalism was no lovely thing either. But as with anything, we would ought to be careful about what we want, because we may get it.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:46 pm 25. Denver Dem:I agree with Putin. I heard McCain had sent some of his scum over seas to talk the retard that runs Georgia into doing this. I also heard this is where Karl Rove has been while they were trying to subpeona him to testify in the CIA leak trial. It would surprise me if the scum bag repugs had gotten 4000 people killed in Russia to get their candidate a jump. Another war crime they need to be prosecuted for. I hope something horrible happens to them and their families.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:46 pm 26. Doug:Obama muzzles the media.
Aug 28, 2008 - 2:52 pm 27. Cas:“Barack
Obama, Aspiring Commissar”
“I agree with Putin.” – Denver Dem (and Barack Obama).
Putin’s claim is un-possible. At best, Putin had the Russian Army on alert and ready to go on any pretense, any excuse–it’s almost certain that the eventual pretense and excuse wasn’t an American instigation, and even if it was, it would have been an instigation intentionally in concert with the Russian agenda in Georgia.
Therefore, at best, Putin is lying and engineered the incident, at worst, Putin is lying, engineered the incident, and convinced Bush to help him.
Those tanks were ready and waiting. Bush doesn’t have it in him to send the Russian Army marching orders, whether for McCain or anyone else. If he did, Iran’s ass would be hanging in the breeze.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:00 pm 28. DanM:“Great is truth, but still greater, from a practical point of view, is silence about truth. By simply not mentioning certain subjects… totalitarian propagandists have influenced opinion much more effectively than they could have by the most eloquent denunciations.”
– Aldous Huxley
DenD, are you a believer?
Sorry for feeding the Troll…
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:04 pm 29. Eggplant:Denver Dem, you’ve need to be a little more subtle than that. This isn’t Daily Kos.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:05 pm 30. trangbang68:Dan m , That is a powerful video. And lo and behold, along comes Denver Dumb to illustrate the premise of the impossibility of educating those who’ve been brainwashed. You read the comments of some of these lefties, you almost wonder if they are a joke someone is playing. Is it really possible to be this stupid and ill informed?
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:09 pm 31. Paul:Denver Dem:
Not only do you agree with Putin, I think you and your Dems are all too often aligned with him and all the other enemies of America .
Talk about war crimes, aren’t you complicit in the Russian raping and killing in Georgia by promoting his propaganda?
I think you and your “Blame America First “crowd have become more and more the “Defeat America First” crowd. This situation is a lot more serious than your puny little mind can handle.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:12 pm 32. Doug:In a word, Trangbang, yes:
—
The station, WGN, has made a stream of the broadcast available online, here, and it has to be heard to be believed.
Obama’s robotic legions dutifully jammed the station’s phone lines and inundated the program with emails, attacking Kurtz personally. Pressed by Rosenberg to specify what inaccuracies Kurtz was guilty of, caller after caller demurred, mulishly railing that “we just want it to stop,” and that criticism of Obama was “just not what we want to hear as Americans.”
Remarkably, as Obama sympathizers raced through their script, they echoed the campaign’s insistence that it was Rosenberg who was “lowering the standards of political discourse” by having Kurtz on, rather than the campaign by shouting him down.
Kurtz has obviously hit a nerve. It is the same nerve hit by the American Issues Project, whose television ad calling for examination of the Obama/Ayers relationship has prompted the Obama campaign to demand that the Justice Department begin a criminal investigation.
Obama fancies himself as “post-partisan.”
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:13 pm 33. fedya:He is that only in the sense that he apparently brooks no criticism.
This episode could be an alarming preview of what life will be like for the media should the party of the Fairness Doctrine gain unified control of the federal government next year.
@Denver Dem:
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:14 pm 34. Doug:How many fakes can play on one pinhead?
“just not what we want to hear as Americans.”
I love that line!
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:15 pm 35. DanM:68,
Now, now… They really don’t believe they are the Useful Idiots described in the video. They can’t be a tool used by an “Ideology”. They are for Hope and Change. What can be wrong with Hope…and Change.
I made a couple of career choices that were full of Hope and Change.. Oh to have those decisions back…
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:16 pm 36. NahnCee:Oh, but I’m believing it because Wendy’s husband says so and he works in one of those bastions of higher education, learning and Marxism so who else would be more familiar with how the Communist mind works and doesn’t work.
Besides, Putin has never been known to lie, and if he says that it’s all Bush’s fault, then it must be. If he’d been a little bit more PR-savvy, he would have managed to mix Rove’s name into the souffle he’s attempting to bake and then the KosKids would REALLY have something to celebrate.
(I cannot look at a picture of Putin anymore without superimposing Harry Potter’s house elf Dobby over it.)
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:21 pm 37. buddy larsen:“It is absolutely unacceptable that WGN would give a slimy character assassin like Kurtz time for his divisive, destructive ranting on our public airwaves,” the note continued. “At the very least, they should offer sane, honest rebuttal to every one of Kurtz’s lies.”
uh, shouldn’t that be, ‘the’ public airwaves? What does that clunky ‘our’ mean?
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:25 pm 38. fedya:@everybody:
sorry for feeding the troll
Yeah, me, too. All they need is to add so much noise that large numbers of people will give up in disgust. Our postistes boyz are like the mobs of Kos-thugs trying to shut down a Chicago radio station for the crime of interviewing Stanley Kurtz about his research into the Obama-Ayers connections.
Perhaps the ex-KGB agent was right (re: the methods described in the video cited above), and such KBG efforts have gone on long enough and thoroughly enough that we are now in a radically destabilized condition as a nation.
My own kid looks at me with shocked incredulity if I have something good to say about President Bush. It makes him uncomfortable, something he doesn’t want to have to accomodate vis-a-vis his own milieu in a top California University. Too much cognitive dissonance, I suppose, in spite of the fact he has an independent mind.
Young people in church get “big round eyes” and looks of bemused “gotta handle this one” if I say that US hedgemony and freedom of the seas are preconditions for peace and prosperity.
Oh, well, gotta soldier on. Don’t feed trolls. Keep looking up.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:29 pm 39. wretchard:I don’t think we ought to lash out at Wendy when she points out that the Georgia crisis was good for McCain. It’s an opinion. But then, practically any foreign crisis would make McCain look good, which I think is the much more telling point.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:30 pm 40. coyotl:>>With Iraq fast vanishing from the headlines, Georgia has become a political issue.<<
Oh, it’s still in the headlines, Wretchard. You’ve simply stopped paying attention because the facts have become inconvienent. The Shiite Islamist government is turning on the Anbar Awakening:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-brimley26-2008aug26,0,4646204.story
They’re shutting down voting centers to sabotage the elections:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2008-08-14-Iraq-vote-witness_N.htm
And Malaki is plotting with Iran Ayatollah Khamaenei as to how to best get the Americans to leave.
http://www.nysun.com/foreign/maliki-bets-that-obama-will-prevail/82374/
Your entire illusion of victory in Iraq is premised on the Shiite Islamist parties that rule being quickly transformed into “Jeffersonian democrats”. What happens when even you can’t maintain that fiction? Is it dishonesty, or simply doublethink?
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:33 pm 41. buddy larsen:A Russian MiG 29 shot down a Georgian eye-in-the-sky drone on April 20th this year. It was peering at something –in Georgia –that Ivan wished it not to see. Also, the internet attack on Georgia’s communications system began ramping up a week or more before the tanks rolled.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:34 pm 42. neolex:@DanM
Though the video seems interesting, I would say its relation to reality is tenuous at best. Looking at the filmography of the director (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._Edward_Griffin#Filmography), one comes to the conclusion that he was simply looking for evidence of commies in US. A Russian saying (to which my translation will not do justice) goes “One who’s looking, will always find.”
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:37 pm 43. Doug:“At the very least, they should offer sane, honest rebuttal to every one of Kurtz’s lies.”
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:39 pm 44. DanM:—
No mention about the FACT that the offer was made, but not accepted.
neolex,
Agree with your premise. But, looking back at 30 years of our history is persuasive in support of his discussion.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:39 pm 45. Doug:Russia’s Kurdish “terrorists”/agents blew up the pipeline in advance, also.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:41 pm 46. s:Give me a break Wendy. I guess Putin rode on the same plane that Bush ordered to fly into the World Trade Center, or maybe he helped Hussein with his weapons of mass destruction. You conspiracy theorists need to give it a rest. I didn’t see Bush or Cheney driving any of the tanks over into Georgia.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:46 pm 47. buddy larsen:Hu Jintao and the ‘Stans –lordy –that’s huge. Medvedev must’ve called the meet –and couldn’t sell his story. Imagine how grim it would be if he had succeeded. Paki (Pakistan is a Shanghai ‘observer’) troops today have been knocking the talibans pretty hard. In the ‘Swat’ district, please note. Maybe the Chinese rebuff is already having an effect.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:49 pm 48. DanM:neolex,
btw, there are more videos in that series. I believe they are on the linked YouTube page. The whole series is rather long and I have not looked at the whole series in years, but he has a compelling argument.
Now, to completely blow my argument – the Conspiracy Theorist in me finds truth there… The rational thinker…finds truth there… Can’t resolve this, requires more research.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:51 pm 49. neolex:@ Doug
Though it would make sense for Russia to be involved, this remains an unfounded allegation. Same holds true for the huge (100,000 tonns of ammunition) ammo depot that is currently on fire in Ukraine. It just “feels” like Russia to do it, but, alas, there is no evidence.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:51 pm 50. fedya:@buddy larsen:
“…his divisive, destructive ranting on our public airwaves” …. What does that clunky ‘our’ mean?
Good ear, Larcenous. From my days long ago as a [thoroughly suborned by the Marxists] “pacifist” and until now, the word “our” is code in some circles for a threat/promise of “mass action”. It started with 19th Century anarchism and has been promoted by collectivist (e.g. syndicalist) anarchists as an antidote to “propaganda of the deed” by individuals or small groups. It is a participatory form of “propaganda of the deed” useful as agitprop, mental conditioning for activists, practice for ever-larger “actions” and a spiritual baptism for vanguardistes.
As one technique of opportunistic sloganeering, Leninists are unparalleled masters of the use of “our” to signify a rallying promise of victorious mass action.
Participation in mass violence, even muted, is an essential part of contemporary anarchist practice. “Critical Mass”, a monthly, ritualistic mass action in which bicyclists dominate and “take back our streets” [in San Francisco] was originally developed by utopian anarchists wishing to turn the revolution green.
BTW, these are generally not people you want to criticize if you need to work with them.
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:56 pm 51. Doug:neolex,
Threatswatch.org had some indirect evidence posted, but their server crashed and they’re trying to recover data.
—
Stanley Kurtz Is on the Great One’s show tonight.
A Reader Brings to Our Attention [Ramesh Ponnuru]
that Stanley Kurtz’s Wikipedia entry has been changed a lot lately—as you’d expect.
The current entry is largely lifted from the Obama campaign release about Stanley, as you can tell from the press-release-style capitalization.
Note also the reliance on such credible sources as Media Matters.
—
Trish said,
“There was a meeting I guess a few days ago of us and the Pakistani general staff. Concerning the border.
We’re probably looking to create a buffer zone so we can proceed in Afghanistan.
The next big thing.“
Aug 28, 2008 - 3:59 pm 52. neolex:@DanM
I would agree with Bezmenov’s analysis as far as it pertains to the effects of “liberal” (especially European “liberal”) “ideology” (in quotes, because it can rather be considered a lack of one). But, to take it a step further, and suggest a conspiracy, especially such long-term and large is completely baseless and smacks of McCarthyism. The answer is usually simpler and even banal, and can be directly observed in other countries. It has to do with quality of life. As I’ve previously quoted someone (though don’t know who, help me out someone, I think it was Newsweek or Time article), the difference between Americans and Europeans is that Americans believe no one, while Europeans believe in nothing. Though a big generalization, I find to be cutting right to the heart of the matter. It seems that this applies
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:10 pm 53. DanM:American “liberals” as well.
neolex,
This is going to make me sound even MORE conspiracy-theory laced…
I think there needs to be an analogue to Godwins Law for how long it takes for a Blog commenter to mention McCarthyism… Maybe called reducto ad McCarthyum
Understand your skepticism.
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:20 pm 54. Doug:EFFECTIVE LIES
“I knew Bill Clinton was going to do what he always does, and that’s go out and lie through his teeth.
But then Biden comes on, and some of the stuff that came out of Biden’s mouth, a noted plagiarizer, Clinton a noted perjurer, both these guys on full display, and the slobbering media swallowed it all.
I had to hear these two speeches, and then I listened and I read analysts talking about how effective both speeches were, while those same analysts acknowledged the lies in the speeches.
I sit there and I ask myself, how in a sane world can something that is a lie or a series of lies be effective?
Look, I’m an adult and I understand all during the nineties the Drive-Bys marveled at how Clinton lied.
But the combination of the words “effective” and “lies” sums up the Democrat Party.
It sums up what we’re going to get tonight with Obama.”
– Limbaugh
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:25 pm 55. neolex:@DanM
Lol, I see your point. However, Goodwin’s Law has no bearing on the validity of comparison though.
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:27 pm 56. fedya:@neolex:
Though the video seems interesting, I would say its relation to reality is tenuous at best
You misunderestimate Communists. That such strategies are commonly discussed among them is simply a fact. That the KGB was attempting (successful of not) to use these strategies might surprise a few Western Gramsciites who still love to sneer at “stupid Russians”.
Anotnio Gramsci, the Italian Communist leader, is the patron saint of neo-Stalinist cultural work, especially emphasis on taking over and controlling education as part of building toward “The Revolution”. “Cultural studies” and “critical theory” are contemporary code words often referring to Gramsci’s successors in American & European academia.
Other important proponents of “critical theory” are the German “Frankfurt School” (see the Wikipedia article). Herbert Marcuse inspired our own “New Left” in the 1960’s.
Though the Weathermen started out pretty wild, woolly [and imaginative] New Leftists, by the time they went underground and their manifesto Prairie Fire was published, they had transitioned into traditional Stalinists (”Democratic-Centralism” to all you old lefties out there), much like the then-famous Progressive Labor party that Wikipedia’s article claims helped them make the transition.
Bill Ayers = unrepentent Stalinist
Oh me! Oh my! How can I say such a ridiculous thing as that? … Well, uh, it’s true?
Hey, we’re talking ’bout MY generation, baby! Right on! … whatever.
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:27 pm 57. Joseph Somsel:How could Bush talk Georgia into starting a fight that they were sure to lose? Al Queda can recruit suicide bombers but can Bush recruit suicide nations?
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:30 pm 58. fedya:@neolix:
But, to take it a step further, and suggest a conspiracy
Dude, they’ve been bragging about which one’s better at “cultural work” since the 1930’s. This stuff is what they say they are doing.
You, however, you seem to be located in an Egyptian River, no? Sure, you find it shocking and incredible and just so not nice. It is natural to react to this stuff with incredulity. But denial is not an adaptive response, dude.
And if you are insisting on remaining in your state of denial, let me ask you this: Who are you to tell them that they are not doing exactly what they say they are doing?
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:34 pm 59. neolex:@fedya
Saying that strategies of ideological subversion are discussed among communists is akin to saying that strategies of interstellar travel are discussed among sci-fi fans.
What such view discounts is the mimetic power of Communism as ideology that does not require rational actors for propagation and the effects of quality of life on world view. To put it simplistically, the reason Europeans are liberal is the same reason Americans are fat. One has to dispel simpler explanations for a phenomenon, before proceeding to create new theories.
This brings me to another point, which is tangentially related to a previous threat about God. People seem to gravitate towards explanation that involve intentional actors as prima causae. This, I guess, is also realated to explaining natural world with God. However, most phenomena arise regardless of intent of any of the actors and have more to do with statistical tendencies and environment.
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:48 pm 60. neolex:threat -> thread, lol
Aug 28, 2008 - 4:48 pm 61. 2x4:@Neolex: most phenomena arise regardless of intent of any of the actors and have more to do with statistical tendencies and environment
True. That does not mean someone(s) does not want (or did not try) to game it. The strategies of ideological subversion aren’t discussed by commies today. They were let out of the bag long time ago and now they live in transmogrified forms, on their own, wrecking, by means of lopsided statistical chaos, the young generation. It will take quite a while to undo the damage.
It is also true that there are agents that would have no problem with taking advantage of the weakened society, and use any means they can to skew the trends in their favor.
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:05 pm 62. RWE:Statistically speaking.
I have heard some on the Left claiming that the Russian invasion of Georgia is all because of the Americian invasion of Iraq.
But what comes through loud and clear, from statements made by Putin, to official propaganda put out by Moscow to the things the Russian bloggers say is that the real inspirtaion and justification for the invasion of Georgia was Clinton’s invasion of Bosnia, and especially, Kosovo. So one of the most shameful episodes in recent Americian history comes back to bite. Our intervention in Kosovo was inspired by Bill’s desperate attempt to placate Hillary following Monicagate. It had nothing to do with national defense, our vital interests, or stopping genocide.
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:13 pm 63. DanM:neolex,
You assume natural political cause for the hard left turn this country has taken, compared to say – 50 years ago?
Have you read Paulo Friere? Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:16 pm 64. DanM:Now, take that “Pedagogy of the Oppressed” theory and run it to Bill Ayers’ “Social Justice” driven Educational theory funded by Annenburg. Philosophically and politically interesting…
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:25 pm 65. Steynian 233 « Free Mark Steyn!:[...] VLAD “THE IMPALER”– Putin’s ad …. [...]
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:32 pm 66. fedya:@neolex:
People seem to gravitate towards explanation that involve intentional actors as prima causae
If I’m not mistaken, this thread began with an open conjecture as to whether certain actors were acting intentionally in one fashion or another. You seem a little over-eager to dismiss the very possibility of intentional action with a bright, dismissive, flutter of a gesture.
As you are SO quick to dismiss our plebians’ tendency to invent a God, so Antonio Gramsci understood that Christian belief stood squarely athwart the Commies’ march to Victory and would have to be defeated deep down in the souls of the people. He thereby launched millions of academic lifelong careers across the “West”.
It does not stretch *my* credulity that great numbers of academics and American liberals harbor related mythologies SIMPLY (you say you prefer “simpler” first) to feel a sense of having purpose in this world. I suspect you are not immune to needing such a sense yourself, but if you wish to claim not, well… You may deign to dismiss “purpose-driven people” as hapless primitives, but I would suggest you do so at your own peril as well as everyone else’s if only because there are so many hapless primitives around you.
I’d feel sorry you’re all alone, dude, but ou aren’t.
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:33 pm 67. Daniel:Putin,
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:38 pm 68. fedya:Your actions were justified… but you simply overstayed your welcome. Believe me, Americans want to change, we want to vote for Obama, and alter the course of the universe for all humankind… but we cannot do it without your help. Please, respect your neighbors so we can remain forever in a world withour war.
If Mccain gets elected, then you can push the red button.
@RWE:
Our intervention in Kosovo was inspired by Bill’s desperate attempt to placate Hillary following Monicagate.
Ummm, do I dare suggest I prefer NeoLex’s formula in this case?
“One has to dispel simpler explanations for a phenomenon, before proceeding to create new theories.”
Though it does possess simplicity, um, yeah… I have really, really, really lost track of who is joking, choking or bloking ’round heah.
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:41 pm 69. JFSanders:@Joseph Somsel:
I went to the linked article. Nice read. Thanks.
In the comments our local FSB agent “AL” showed up! Man that guy must be pushing for a promotion. He is really getting around.
Jim
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:45 pm 70. Doug:On the opening page of Rules for Radicals, Alinksy quotes himself saying,
“Let us not forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical:
from all our legends, mythology, and history (and who is to know where the mythology leaves off and history begins – or which is which), the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom -
- Lucifer.”
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:49 pm 71. NahnCee:Wretchard – not lashing out at Wendy because she agrees with Putin. Lashing out because she’s putting her husband the college professor up as elitist expert.
Aug 28, 2008 - 5:55 pm 72. DanM:fedya,
I forwarded the theory, so I am somewhat obliged to defend it. This is one place where I am assured to get counter-point. I welcome it to poke holes so I don’t waste time on a half-baked theory.
I’m not really prone to conspiracy theories, but this has a feel to it…. Do I believe it? As of now, heck if I know.. But, I certainly don’t take the argument personally.
Aug 28, 2008 - 6:00 pm 73. fedya:@NahnCee:
Lashing out because she’s putting her husband the college professor up as elitist expert.
Which is more or less what I did too.
However, Wendy could have been purely straightforward and interested in a decent response. The fact that she got more heat than light and more raspberries than a default to kindness may indicate our “loyalist” faction among BC commenteers is suffering from a siege mentality.
Another example is my overheated frustration in the face of dismissive attitudes about “conspiracies”. Coherent, conspiratorial, political activity by revolutionaries here now is dismissed as a lunatic concept in the same way I dismiss “Truthers” as lunatics.
To me it is obvious that there are great numbers of leftists who play a lifelong game of semi-secretly “not selling out” their revolutionary vision while superficially dismissing “McCarthism” and railing against “fascistic” Republican suppression of [their] freedom. It is obvious to me because I dabbled in those waters when young and I see the academic careers of the same “faithful” today, forty years later.
So, I’m a wingnut for thinking there are moonbats out there, I suppose. Or am I a wingnut for thinking that many of the moonbats are much more serious than any of us wingnutters care to think about.
Aug 28, 2008 - 6:16 pm 74. cedarford:“I believe that Caracas will become a first-world city in 20 years,” Livingstone told reporters on a surprise visit to Venezuela. “I have a very extensive network of contacts both domestically and internationally which I will be calling on to assist in this.”
That’s funny, given Red Ken Livingstone’s track record of working to make London a dangerous, 3rd world city full of gangs of knife-wielding thugs with no fear of the British justice system, and a hotbed of violent extemists..
Boris chucked him from office on the people becoming convinced that Red Ken loved the Mullahs and Jamaican thugs more than he loved Brits.
Hating that stupid Venezuelan goon who is bad for his country and the Region, not just the USA – I think of Red Ken working there as a sweet gift Chavez will hopefully follow the advice of…right to ruin and perdition.
Aug 28, 2008 - 6:28 pm 75. fedya:@DanM:
I forwarded the theory
If you mean the video with the ex-KGB agent, I hope you aren’t apologizing for it.
I find that series to be embarrassing to myself, but the gentleman is very credible, say I, if only because I expended many, many brain cells reading decent histories and also leftist gobbledygook and it rings true with Everything Else.
He lacks Le Carrée’s lefty-literate, global-wide, über-evil stylisms, another good reason to give him serious consideration.
His talk is more than faintly embarrassing to American academic leftists for many reasons, including:
1) the believe-it bad rep of the KGB,
2) stereotypes of fat Russian women and the apparatchiki,
3) Anglo-Saxon superiority complexes, and
4) just plain generic academic poseur customs.
None of us likes to see what he says we should see. We want to dismiss it as some childish or paranoid fantasy that belongs to the dark ages before the End of History.
Oooopsie! We’re still in the dark ages before the End of Histrionics, er, History, ain’t we?
Aug 28, 2008 - 6:36 pm 76. DanM:fedya,
No, I wasn’t apologizing for the video. I was responding to your “I have really, really, really lost track of who is joking, choking or bloking ’round heah” statement.
I wasn’t joking, nor bloking, maybe choking though… Things do seem to get “angular” around here..
Aug 28, 2008 - 6:49 pm 77. buddy larsen:the end of history
Aug 28, 2008 - 6:54 pm 78. 2x4:end dove history
hawkistry too
you full of me
eye full of you
we all love people
bake fry or stew
Buddy, To Serve Man?
Aug 28, 2008 - 7:03 pm 79. fedya:@DanM:
Thank you, I do feel SO much better now.
@buddy and @2×4:
Ahhh, humourosity, right! I really, really, really DO feel much better now.
Thank you, gentlemen.
Aug 28, 2008 - 7:13 pm 80. buddy larsen:ha ha –wicked — but true — take the two great systems all the way out to their ends, and that’s the question, “can you be food, and not me too?”
God-fearing, or conscience-fearing, liberty-lovers say “no”.
Aug 28, 2008 - 7:20 pm 81. Doug:All others say “irrelevant question, let’s just see how things play out”.
To Serve Man
Aug 28, 2008 - 7:28 pm 82. LazP:The WGN bruhaha will not help Obama one bit. Obama knows well the prestige of this station as well as Dr. Milton Rosenberg. WGN is not a station you attack in Chicag. I was listening to Milt during this abomination. Milt kept insisting that he had invited the Obama people ot respond and they rejected. He even had his producer come on the show to verify.
Aug 28, 2008 - 8:24 pm 83. LazP:This was a disgraceful behavior by the Obama champagne.
Aug 28, 2008 - 8:25 pm 84. LazP:campaign.
Aug 28, 2008 - 8:27 pm 85. buddy larsen:sham pain
Aug 28, 2008 - 8:39 pm 86. Mikielikes:For crying out loud Putin – I suppose it was the U.S. military that invaded the sovereign country of Georgia? Did the CIA force the Russian military to cross over the border? Any U.S. troops on the ground there fighting? Give me a break! For those who think that this is plausible – vote for Obama since he’s as clueless as Putin -
Aug 28, 2008 - 9:01 pm 87. neolex:@fedya
I do not dismiss intentional actions (though there are interesting nuances in regards to them pertaining to free will). I merely argue against explaining phenomena away with them.
Let’s conduct a thought experiment, and assume that all left-leaning academia is neutral in their effects on students positions in terms of political/economic ideology. We then would likely find that this merely slows down the spread of socialist ideas, rather than eliminating or even reversing it. The reason for that is the fertile environment of the West, where 5 of the 6 Maslow’s needs categories are satisfied, leaving most people to deal with self-actualization.
This is where the morals come in. You will likely disagree with me here, depending on the extent to which you believe in God. Morals are this awesome evolutionary result that allowed humans unprecedented level of cooperation and control over the environment for such highly autonomous beings. Once the egoistic needs are satisfied to a sufficient extent, one is left with morals and other “altruistic” impulses (game theory). Here we find people realizing that they reside in a capitalistic system, that seen as immoral prima facae. The alternative to it, socialism, scratches the moral itch people get to “fix the world”. Thus you have the infection vector. Now, add to that the memetic baggage that socialism carries to help with its own dissemination (again, this is depends to what extent one accepts the validity of concept of memes and I acknowledge its debatable).
Now, lets imagine less of a fertile environment. Actually, lets not imagine. Let’s look at Eastern Europe and, specifically, Poland, Czech Republic, etc. We would find that given their run-ins with communism and a much lower quality of life, socialist ideals are much less popular, and left academia, if one existed or exists there, has or would have little effect on the situation. Thus, primary causes can actually be found in the environment, the ideology, and, of course, Charles Darwin. The commie conspiracy (even if one existed) would be merely an accelerant.
What I find to be ironic, is that contemporary socialist, by trying to bring about change in the current models of wealth distribution are actually putting it off by reducing (or at least attempting to) per capita GDP. In my opinion, the foreseeable dominant system will be a fusion of socialism and meritocratic capitalism (and to an extent this is true already). I can lay out my reasons for thinking that separately, if there is interest, as this post is already kind of long.
Aug 28, 2008 - 9:02 pm 88. neolex:@Mikielikes
Putin is far from clueless. This is an attempt by him to game US public opinion. The sheer transparancy of the attempt, by the way, goes against your argument, Fedya, that KGB should be given more credit for their subversion techniques. I believed for a long time that KGB cannot game Western system because they simply do not understand it. So far, I have found nothing to challenge that view.
Aug 28, 2008 - 9:15 pm 89. Joseph Somsel:As an American and one who tries hard to mine wisdom from our history in order to understand current and future events, I find it very difficult to trust the government of Russia. That’s a confession of a vice I try hard to overcome but without getting dreamy and delusional.
Teddy Roosveldt’s Secretary of State, Mr. Hay, put it succinctly:
“It is difficult to deal with the Russians, a people who have raised mendacity to a science.”
As to AL and his comments on the AmericanThinker piece, he’s saying stuff we all want to hear, but have trouble believing.
Now, if he really an FSB agent, I wonder if he would share with me the going subversion rates. Of course, one would think the market for subverters and traitors is pretty flooded these days.
Aug 28, 2008 - 9:27 pm 90. Doc ted baehr:Bob Dole wouldn’t have started a war in Georgia!
Aug 28, 2008 - 9:44 pm 91. fedya:@neolex:
against your argument, Fedya, that KGB should be given more credit for their subversion techniques
OK, if I plead not guilty due to not intending to make that argument, well, then, who knows what manner of inconsistency I’ve wrought! Perhaps this is due to my conflating two very separate questions:
1) Russian secret services efforts at manipulation of American public opinion these present days; vs
2) American leftists receiving aid and succour from Russian black forces prior to the fall of communism in grand subversive enterprises akin to Gramsciist strategy — but not at all in the present-day.
[...Defined for clarity and useful separation of issues, not to cover all contingencies, in direct response to your excellent point...]
NOTE 1: Bill Ayers, et al….
I do not think, for example, that the new old SDS’ers, neo-Maoists like Carl Davidson or Bill Ayers are in any way influenced by present day Russians — or Chinese for that matter. Their core praxis is, I imagine, still entirely “Stalinist” [democratic centralism], but they lard up all sorts of PoMo foobar on top of that and they don’t openly practice “party discipline” so they get to do the Liberal Cocktail Party circuits freely. They are as home-grown as they are reprehensible collectivists, 100% so. They are also nearly all children of wealth, but you knew that, right?
Since neo-Maoist theology is flexible enuff to blithely diss all existing states as “warring imperialist powers”, Carl & Bill, et al, get to say and do anything they like and to be right about it, too! Just ask ‘em.
If I’m not mistaken, you and I and others shared moments of amused scorn at the mini-waves of tin-eared trolls washing across the bows of the USS Belmont Club last week. I believe we are entirely in agreement about their incompetence in general.
NOTE 2….
Persnickety Russkie agents:
We noticed plenty of NSIRA’s (Non-Self-Identified Russkie Agyentii) in coments here. However, I noticed likely suspects but I did not notice them being called out on other sites like they were here, perhaps because I wasn’t following commments so closely elsewhere.
If you agree that I/we may have spotted Russkie trolls/plants/sock puppets on other sites [and that the ones noticed can be painfully obvious], would it be your guess they were ignored on purpose, or were they not spotted, or are commenteers on other newsie or right-ish sites just too much gentlepeople to call them out?
Aug 28, 2008 - 10:09 pm 92. Dave:fedya; I have had some experience with PSYOPS to include having played the game with live ammunition.
Certainly, communist organizations and others
(Wahabis come to mind) conspire how to control and alter our minds. Directly though, they have had very little effect. They have won few converts.
Most brainwashed people have brainwashed themselves. They simply believe that they can achieve their version of utopia (usually an incoherent vision of perfection) if the just WANT it enough. Wanting it enough has them standing on the edge of the moonbat pit.
Left to their own devices only some of them
will actually jump in. Enemy PSYOP is what
gets the rest to make the leap.
Whatever line is being pushed does not have to be rational or follow any logical train of thought. In fact, the more irrational and contradictory it is, the better. It just has to be emotional, that is all.
So the commies deluded themselves when they
thought they were micro-managing their fellow-travelers. However, they did manage to direct a mental blowtorch onto ready tinder.
Their successors follow the same pattern
because they get paid to, by one sponsor or the other. This is the only known method that produces any kind of results.
So while there are those who deserve to receive a suspended sentence (by the neck, until deceased) our vulnerability is that desire for utopia, an Earthly Paradise.
This vulnerability is much more pronounced in
affluent societies than is poverty-stricken ones. People who have to scramble for survival must necessarily face reality head-on. Only those that have a lot can fantasize
about a pain-free, consequence-free existence.
So while conspiracy exists, what the conspirators bring about is not something they actually control. Keeps things plumb interesting.
Aug 28, 2008 - 10:25 pm 93. fedya:@neolix:
contemporary socialist…change in the current models of wealth distribution are actually putting it off…
Aw for cryin’ out loud! Will you pleez say sumthin’ ah kin disagree with?
(Chokink, chust chokink!)
Here in Baghdad by the Bay, I have found that my #1 top line to stop yer normal SF voting human person cold is:
“The Democrats are the party of the ALREADY rich. Anyone who isn’t ALREADY rich owes it to themseff [sic, I gots real bad grammur, don't I?] to check out them Rippubberkins or, much as I hate to say it, them thar Libertarians”.
Stops ‘em every time, and — get this, dude — they remains FRIENDLY, too! I know, it’s hard to bee-leev, but it’s tru, trooly tru.
Aug 28, 2008 - 10:26 pm 94. fedya:@dave:
So while conspiracy exists, what the conspirators bring about is not something they actually control.
You should pay more attention to the present gangsterism and thuggery of the Obamaniacs: attempting to shut down political commentary and radio talk shows like they have a moral obligation to do so, and doing it en masse…
Just what is less than “actually control” here? These are “mass actions” or threats of lawsuit instigated by the Obama campaign itself. Are you claiming that this is not happening?
Aug 28, 2008 - 10:37 pm 95. CPT. Charles:Obama may have a reason to become involved in the Russia-Georgia Crisis.
Rumor has it that many of the T-90’s had ‘Yes We Can’ written on them.
Such a blatant theft of intellectual property will doubtlessly generate a stern letter of rebuke. No doubt Sen. Obama’s statesmanship will be up for the task.
Aug 28, 2008 - 10:39 pm 96. CPT. Charles:Back on topic: the attack of the Obamabots will intensify as we get closer to the general election. As clumsy as Putin’s assertion was, it’s just what the fools at the Kos and the DU want to hear.
Sadly, we live in a time when the enemies of our republic are given more credibility than any rational mind would permit. Such is the state of affairs…and 50+ years for the poison [initially injected by the KGB] working it’s way through our nation.
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:03 pm 97. neolex:@fedya
Obama’s campaign actions do not fall outside normal agitprop of political campaigns. Same goes for harassing media outlets and advertisers. If anything, they’ve learned it from GOP. What is more disturbing, in my opinion, is inability of MSM to conduct any kind of investigative journalism against both, dems and GOP, despite hours of TV to fill and boatloads of cash to spend.
By the way, by far, the best students of Gramsci were religious conservatives who tried to subvert schools to teach intelligent design as science by replacing people on school boards. The lack of significant progress in their efforts goes to show how hard it is to direct public and achieve intended result, even in favorable conditions.
By the way, listening to 720 Milt with Kurtz, nothing conclusive, but the possibilities are truly scary. The only potential consolation is that Biden would amiliorate Obama’s fuckups in foreign policy.
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:06 pm 98. buddy larsen:They said it couldn’t be done!
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:21 pm 99. Doug:But with a smile he went right to it!
He tackled that job that couldn’t be done!
he couldn’t do it.
Yeah, neolex, the Pubs are doing everything they can to bring back the fairness doctrine.
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:31 pm 100. Doug:NOT.
But the aspiring Commissar sure will.
…and none of us have EVER seen the MSM thoroughly trash Pub Politicians.
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:33 pm 101. buddy larsen:Much.
Ellen Barry of the NY Times notes charming cultural difference among hard-working young Russian men in neat uniforms and thick-necked Ossetians who, in front of buildings and near their guns, lounge.
“…teams of young Russian men were swarming around a few damaged buildings, wearing neat uniforms with labels that said “Special Construction.” They were cutting glass to replace windows, putting coral-colored paint on a primary school and spackling hundreds of bullet holes. A caravan of trucks passed through town, distributing “Genuine Russian Bread” and a popular Moscow daily, “Russian Newspaper.”
The Soviet-era House of Printing has been remade into an International Press Center, and journalists now receive press accreditation by the “State Commission for Information and Press of the Republic of South Ossetia.” An exhibit titled “Genocide” appeared this week, with photos of injured children and burned and mangled bodies.
There was no glass in most of the windows, though, and the bathrooms remained a reminder that a war had occurred.
“I would like it to maximally resemble civilization,” said Alexei Martynov, who runs the press center. Despite the dust and heat, Mr. Martynov appears every day in a fresh business suit and tie, providing a contrast with the thick-necked Ossetian militiamen who lounge in front of the building, Kalashnikovs propped beside them.
Mr. Martynov — the director of a nonprofit group in Moscow called the International Institute for Newly Established States — said it was time for South Ossetia to shrug off of its warrior mentality and usher in a period of “managers and engineers.” He said it could prove to be a model for a number of “states with unclear political status,” like Transnistria, a breakaway region of Moldova that has also moved to reunite with Russia. One possibility would be to make it a tax haven, a strategy that has worked for Monaco, Andorra and Liechtenstein, he said.
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:52 pm 102. neolex:@Doug
Being facetious does not a point make.
MSM are horrible at covering either party. At times their PC, depending on circustances, biases them either towards democrats, or whoever is in power. The bottomline is that most of the stories and scandals have not been uncovered by mainstream media, but by blogs and smaller outlets, which is disappointing.
Also, trashing a Pub politician is not the same as investigative journalism.
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:58 pm 103. buddy larsen:Pretendkin Village
Aug 28, 2008 - 11:59 pm 104. Dave:fedya: By “do not actually control”
I was referring to controlling bodies by means of mind control.
I was not referring to physical thuggery,
which I certainly know exists and I am certainly aware of attempts to shut down
dissent.
I was trying to nutshell the mental games. In doing so I was speaking as if they were independent of the physical.
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:03 am 105. fedya:@neolex:
Obama’s campaign actions do not fall outside normal agitprop of political campaigns
It is clear we are not communicating. There is no way to be an American advocate of American democracy and say that this thuggery is “normal” much less “normal AGITPROP” Gangsterism is not “normal”. Agitprop is by definition not pursuant of democratic goals.
Of course, I consider “Chicago” politics to be not normative. What about you? Or, are you simply unaware of the pertinence of that beautifully simple and truthful classification scheme?
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:03 am 106. buddy larsen:“…Mr. Martynov appears every day in a fresh business suit and tie, providing a contrast with the thick-necked Ossetian militiamen….”
Ok, is the contrast in that Ossetians don’t wear the same clothes, or in that Mr. Martynov has a skinny neck?
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:05 am 107. neolex:@fedya
You’re right, normal, might not be the right adjective, I guess modern would do better. I agree that this should not be status quo, but unfortunately, it is, and GOP shares a larger part of the blame for that. It is peculiar to me that many on BC get uncomfortable once GOPs faults are brought up. It perfected the agitprop in 2000 and 2004 elections (don’t have sufficient info about dem and pub tactics prior to that).
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:13 am 108. Ostap:Putin is wrong but it was McCain who said “on behalf of all Americans” that “we are all Georgians” so, technically, if all Americans are Georgians, then indeed, the Americans attacked S.Osetia, No?? His pools are up, his Georgian sponsors are happy and Saakashvili, who was the one who actually started it, is kind of a hero, the champion of Information Olympics
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:14 am 109. neolex:@ostap
“As I told President Saakashvili on the day the cease-fire was declared, today we are all Georgians”
I wish I could see you reply, but you probably won’t.
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:21 am 110. buddy larsen:I like the Disinformation Olympics, where the loser is Saakashvili, who is the one who actually counterattacked first.
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:29 am 111. fedya:@ne3olex:
GOP shares a larger part of the blame for that….once GOPs faults are brought up
Sure, you atheist, thug-pumping troll. It seems your civility is but a sometimes mask, sir.
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:43 am 112. fedya:@buddy:
Aug 29, 2008 - 12:46 am 113. buddy larsen:Your wonderful efforts almost helped me keep my sense of humor. If anything could have, you would have.
gotta try to demoralize the anomie
Aug 29, 2008 - 1:14 am 114. buddy larsen:“The Russian ambassador to Kenya yesterday defended his country’s decision to recognise two breakaway regions of Georgia, and urged Kenyans to look beyond “the large-scale disinformation”
If not the world, Kenya!
Aug 29, 2008 - 1:41 am 115. buddy larsen:Russian foreign ministry think tanks also predict a better than even chance of getting a hearing from the Ambassador of Lower East Fasbo, when and if he can be located.
Aug 29, 2008 - 1:45 am 116. RAH:Many people that McCarthy outed were Communists. So he was right just went overboard as humans tend to do.
So calling something McCarthyism does not mean it is not true.
Many socialists went underground and into education to spread the creed. Just talk to ANSWER folks or the prevalent CHE T shirts and posters, even in OBAMA supporters.
As I said in Europe they went in the Green political parties.
But it is not a truly a conspiracy but more that like-minded people tend to collect together. Those that prefer socialism and group think and forcing others to do what they think or totalitarian tactics like the Obama supporter to shut down Stanley Kurtz on the radio.
Saul Alinsky trained Obama about the methods to accrue and handle power. So the totalitarian tendencies are very strong in these groups.
Russia planted seeds of disinformation decades ago and they continue to grow. They will be fomented to cause chaos or mischief. Conservatives did not go into journalism or education so have less impact on youth to influence philosophy.
The commenter said that his child has cognitive dissonance is because he did not educate his child first to inoculate them from the disease of socialist totalitarianism.
Plus with the liberal left infected with BDS they will grab at anything to blame Bush. The truly amazing thing was that when these liberal lefties chose Obama and turned against the liberal favorite Clinton. We have a whole new population that got attacked and is waking up.
I wonder how many Hillary liberal supporters have decided they have been mugged by reality and will turn conservative.
Aug 29, 2008 - 1:59 am 117. neolex:Fedya: Sure, you atheist, thug-pumping troll. It seems your civility is but a sometimes mask, sir.
Given the contents of this post, I find it funny how you would label me a troll and even mention civility. Is atheist, btw, supposed to be an insult? Resorting to personal attacks rather than addressing what I’m saying is exactly what some callers on 720 did to Kurtz. Surely you were amazed by sheer stupidity of their calls. Why mimic?
RAH:“So calling something McCarthyism does not mean it is not true.”
Yes, calling something that doesn’t make it not true that but it does mean that the person engaging in it is going overboard and ironically undermining the same ideals that he/she is seeking to defend by the very action. Accepting “ends justify the means” premise, no matter what the ends might be, makes the cause no different from the left totalitarian causes. In fact, this is why they usually fail. FARC instantly comes to mind.
RAH: But it is not a truly a conspiracy but more that like-minded people tend to collect together.
Amen (surely this will irk fedya). Left ideals are powerful and have a great appeal to morality, by that they have their own inertia and don’t require conspiracies to spread. What happens when these ideals are put into practice, however, is usually quickly forgotten by those espousing them.
RAH: Plus with the liberal left infected with BDS they will grab at anything to blame Bush.
I am no part of liberal left (though I expect fedya to field an objection here). However, I do believe Bush has a lot to answer for. He put people in their position based solely on their loyalty and not their qualification. This is how we got Bremmer, Brown, Gonzales, and many others. The results are self-evident.
Aug 29, 2008 - 5:37 am 118. neolex:inertia -> momentum
Aug 29, 2008 - 5:41 am 119. Charles:Chavez would have been better off if had hired Hernando de Soto and the ILD
Aug 29, 2008 - 8:41 am 120. Pavel:People, how you could be so blind? Those russian-barbarians even in 1945 “disproportionately use its military”, roughly broke “territorial integrity” of independent state – nazist Germany, forced its “democraticaly elected” chancellor to suicide, and destroyed this “young little democracy state”…
Aug 29, 2008 - 10:18 am 121. neolex:And now Russia, the KGB country, set up all this war… It maked up a “rose revolution” in Georgia and set there Saakashvili, it marrried him to CIA staffer, it incited Bush to give money and weapons to Saakashvili and forced them both to shell civilians, peacekeepers and even animals just to have the right to realize its “imperialistic ambitions” !!! You are like blind kittens if you do not understand all this KGB plan!
lol @ pavel
Aug 29, 2008 - 10:24 am 122. buddy larsen:Pavbel, so, can you give us a little more info on why Georgia is like Nazi Germany?
Aug 29, 2008 - 10:24 am 123. buddy larsen:You have to give Pavel and his cohorts a little credit –they operate in a foreign language. I couldn’t do the same in Russian. The alphabet alone would stymie me for a decade.
Aug 29, 2008 - 11:23 am 124. neolex:@buddy
I agree. I really enjoyed reading Pavel’s post. Especially the part about Georgians shelling animals. What Pavel fails to realize, however, is that animals, in times of war can be legitimate military targets. In fact US Army artillery corp operating manual specifically instructs soldiers to pay special attention to neutralizing any stray dogs and goats taller than 4 feet to avoid any threat from them to ground personnel. There is no doubt in my mind, that Georgians, being trained by Americans no less, have received similar instructions.
Aug 29, 2008 - 11:35 am 125. buddy larsen:neolex, it goes back to the book “Animal Farm” –which revealed much of the barnyard community to be communist.
Aug 29, 2008 - 11:47 am 126. buddy larsen:Annexation
Aug 29, 2008 - 6:50 pm 127. Henry IX:So the USA orchestrated the kerfuffle in the Caucasus to help John McCain? And Volodya Putin fell for it. And Mitya Medvedev fell for it. And the Russian military fell for it. How is it that these people wish to be taken for serious leaders when they are so easy to hoodwink?
Aug 29, 2008 - 6:54 pm 128. RAH:Oddly enough multiculturism, which I usually condemn, has brought us lots of immigrant eastern Europeans, which are very sensitive to socialist propaganda.
Putin is upset that his propaganda campaign was not the accepted version in the west. He gets more ridiculous by the day putting out such claims. His credibility is sinking.
Aug 30, 2008 - 11:34 amSorry, comments for this entry are closed at this time.